A Letter to the Narcissist – No. 40

 

A LETTER TOTHENARCISSIST -CV'SLETTER

Hello Dear, you were one of my best friends in high school although we never hooked up back then I always respected and cared about you but never imagined I could  love you not like this anyway.

I looked past your flaws, imperfections and shortcomings and seen a man that could accomplish anything. I thought I knew you. Never in a million years would I have predicted we would start seeing each other 30 years after high school.  None the less I was so happy with you, just being in the same room with you was enough but when you held me it was heaven.

It just felt so right, I felt safe and thought I finally fit in somewhere. I felt complete, everything just made sense.

Then they came along a string of crack whores young and old. I pleaded with you to stop but it’s like I was encouraging  you. You refused, not caring about me just taking me for granted. I cant believe I put up with it as long as I did. I didn’t want to lose you because honestly I don’t know what or how to live without you. I still don’t. from the very beginning you knew you didn’t love me, your intentions were evil and wicked.

Little by little you stripped everything from me. first my friends, I lost my friends the moment I decided to date you. Then my family, my finances, my children, my vehicles, jewelry, anything I owned that was nice or name brand, my credit, my job and possibly my house.

You did not stop there you set me up so I am currently tangled in court , my dignity , my privacy,  my karma I even lost the sparkle in my eye. You call me names and make me out to be this really bad person. Everything you call me or accuse me of is what you are. Yet I defend you, for what? So you can drive her around in my car taking her out to eat, giving her money,  buying her gifts making sure her bills are paid. While I am at work with no money, no cigarettes, no groceries in the home, sometimes no electricity or  running water.

Let’s not forget the kicks in the stomach with your size 13 foot, 3 in a row and not one tear. The 8 stiches on my busted lip, the ladies in the car behind us called the police because I jumped out while the car was still moving.  Remember what you said to me when the blood was gushing. You are bleeding all over everything, you are doing it on purpose. SWALLOW THAT BLOOD! But yet I still defended you, I told the police I hit my mouth on the dash when you hit the brake. You promised you would never hit me again. You lied! This time I did not even get an apology, not even a fake one, you just denied it ever happened but I had bruises everywhere.

Every time you hit me was for the same reason one bitch or another you know the ones I make up in my psychotic mind out of thin air. Some how they manage to call and text you and I eventually knock on their front door to confront them.  My psychotic mind must be pretty powerful. How could I be so dumb? No wonder everyone is so frustrated with me.

No more! I am tired of being used and this is where I draw the line. I now know what EVIL looks like, it looks just like you. You pretend to like and care about me to my face but the moment my back is turned you are working on some sort of plan to destroy or sabotage me. You literally want to cause me harm, you want to crush and destroy me. I would not doubt if you’re goal is to see me dead. God only knows.I left a lot of things out of this letter just because I cant even begin to explain it without sounding crazy. For example the video taping and recording me, the skits that you manage to get people to act out like they are real life. The people you have following me where ever I go. The times you drugged my soda or laced my cigarettes, hacked my phone, the gas lighting. Planting drugs on me when you thought I was going to call the police. Getting my son arrested, the many times you left me stranded without my phone or purse. Lets not forget all the games, you know the ones I don’t know I’m playing until its over and you manage to look like the hero when in fact you are the villain and I am made out to look like a crazy or bad person. All the mind Fucks made my brain hurt. You never contributed to the household, did not pay any bills, buy groceries or pay rent. Heck you would take my car and debit card in the middle of the night to the casino while I slept leaving your phone behind so I could not contact you. You did all theses things while making me feel like I’m not good enough,  Could you believe I am still not positive that you are really a narcissist. Remember the day you were taking a nap, I seen you asleep and just starting swinging at you I told you I can’t believe you did this to me, then took off running to my car. You sent me a text that said “How dare you hit me you stupid thing, just wait til you get home”. That statement should have confirmed it.  I guess I do not know you do I. How could I when you don’t even know who you are, you are just a fake nothing that always wants to be first. I do not know how long it will take for me to get over these past 6 years but I know I will. By the way, I do not owe you a damn thing, on the contrary you owe me so much. Don’t think you got away with all the shit you did to me because you haven’t. You will eventually pay you see my dear you reap what you sow. If you sow evil you will reap evil. 

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524 Comments

  1. I know I am late to the party, but I had a co-worker who was involved with a Lesser Narc who was also a felon. Apparently he beat her up (I recall her coming into work with a black eye at one point and in another situation she had a patch over her eye).

    She was evasive and made some excuse for it.

    Yet when it came to reporting him to the police, she refused to do it, knowing that if he was arrested he’d likely spend the next 30 yrs in jail. (I don’t know all the details, but he was on probation or something. I heard about this after she got fired.)

    She was a total codependent and felt a loyalty to him. She also pushed away those trying to help her, as she felt they had an ‘agenda’.

    She ended up losing her job due to having been arrested on account of drug possession, which was likely not even hears (holding it for someone, in other words.)

    Just no boundaries and allowing scummy people to control her life, cause her to be late for work, etc. She was always doing favors for them, but I came to learn she did this out of building a ‘security’. (Better to have them on my side than not!)

    She was very unreliable at work and constantly having meltdowns yet still refused to cut these people from her life.

    It shows how strong emotional thinking can go. I too am guilty of excuse making and trying to downplay bad behaviours and manipulations.

    It’s just unfortunate that she didn’t feel like she had options. I also think that the ‘good sources’ in her life she rejected because she felt they ‘looked down on her’ which is why she felt a loyalty to loser friends and this felon guy.

  2. I know I’m late to the Breaking Bad discussion but my boy Jesse isn’t a Narc. He consistently sympthaizes with and acts in the best interest of children. Remember how he makes food for the son of the methhead couple when he was left alone and later takes him outside to wait for the police so he doesn’t find his father dead? And he is devastated again when his girlfriends son is sick in the hospital (after Walt poisoned him). And he tries to quit the whole business when a kid is accidentally shot during the methyl amine heist. He’s not that smart and he’s a criminal but he has a conscience.

  3. Ladies I see that Q made a very narrow minded observation but please stop the she is possibly a narc talk
    It actually hurts me to see this happening
    Q made an observation based on hervreality. maybe physical abuse is a trigger that angers her and she lashed out.
    We do not know and should not judge her either.
    I understand why there is such reaction over the idiot word but please if we can’t support each other as empaths.

    Kiki

  4. HG has said in the past that we get the occasional narc on here that doesn’t know what they are…just saying…

    1. Blackunicorn
      I remember one other time that I have commented to Q. I don’t remember what it was about and although she had a different opinion then I did, I found her view point interesting. Today she was rude, arrogant, and judgmental, very narc like!

      1. Q posted something on another thread about relationships being ‘transactional.’ Just a cold person.

      2. foolme1time: This is the comment I think. It almost lit the blue touch paper: [ I am an Introspective with strong narcissistic traits. Your site, as well as Vaknin’s has helped me tremendously in understanding what I am, what my family is and how to proceed with my life in the future. It’s been a great resource and I have to add one of my guilty pleasures is to read the comments and to follow, in time, some of the commenters and see how their story unfolds. It’s really a show of its own. I do pitty empaths and codependents because my mother was one and lived a most unhappy life. I still feel sorry for her, it;s been a useless life, shou would have benefit of your site a lot…
        Many commenters remind me of her. I feel sorry for them, too. Especially those who keep talking about putting their faith in love, in being warm and kind and compassionate in their future lives aka they are waiting for the next narcissist to make them unhappy. It beats me how they can do it.
        To add to the list you made, I suggest the cathegory of victims who are sure they were victims precisely because they are good, warm and caring. they list what they did for their narcissist and are hurt because the narcissist did not honour their care and warmth and compassion. Not once they say they are sorry for being so easy giving of themselves. Not once do they question themselves as to why they accepted so little for the so much they had offered. These are people who fail to see how flawed they are and how little they value themselves. They see value in their weakness and they chose to see their weakness and naivete as a quality and keep lamenting of how they were wronged. It beats me how they do it, this is somehow very narcissistic but at 180 degrees. ] ~~Q

        1. PSE
          Yes, that is the comment I was referring too. Thank you PSE for the time you took to look it up, that was very kind of you to do. 🥰🙃

          1. Oracle and others who were pissed off with my comment : Sorry I have not replied sooner – I have only read your responses now.I am battling addiction to the blog atm and thus only dip in infrequently so as not too make it too bad. I kind of think / hope there must have been a misunderstanding – and I am truly sorry I angered you. I am also truly sorry to hear what happened to you, Oracle.

            Me having blinkers on : I certainly did and used to and they have long come off. I have also questioned myself thoroughly if I am the narc. Wasn’t even sure that I am not, even when HG wrote I wasn’t. But then I know I care – a lot – so I probably am not. At the same time that doesn’t mean I don’t make mistakes.

            Is it projection if I get annoyed by people whom I perceive to have blinkers on? It is confusing – perhaps I am. My argument was just – or meant to be – that I wish to take on responsibility for my various entanglements. I too chose those guys not only they me. I am not defending the abuse or the abuser whatsoever. But I myself chose to let a (verbal, emotional) abuser into my life – repeatedly, one of them always on the brink of physical violence. This also means – and it causes me pain I can hardly bear – that I allowed my children to be abused (yelling, swearing, smashed toys, alcoholism….) That I had no means to stop it then, fine, but I was the adult who let it happen so I was part of it. I wish there was more discussion on this here – if there was during the time I have been on the blog I missed it.

            I don’t think it’s a narc trait alone to pass judgement – if that is how it came across it wasn’t meant to. If I am the narc so be it but I’m here to learn like everyone else. When I first came to this blog I was also labelled a narc (almost – not quite ) after I criticised a position – this was also about motherhood. I was hurt by it but not anymore. I try to learn as much as I can – to perform the miracle of becoming self – aware should I be a midrange-matrinarc. I am OK with the term co-narcissist as opposed to empath, because that’s what I was, a narcissist’s partner, and repeatedly so.

            To this day – please forgive me if I write this – I find that there are, at times sect-like cadences on this blog and I honestly don’t like them. Even if I myself cherish HGs work. I react to those and perhaps HG knows why since not many other readers seem to. Or are they just keeping quiet?

            Somewhere else, in response to PD I wrote that I understand the empathic need to idolise whomever we appreciate. But the idolization gets too much here for me sometimes. I know it’s my problem and only mine and I can stay away from such spaces and I do.

            When I defended Q – and I would again – it is the point she makes that there is an implicit celebration of the weakness to fall for narcs on these pages. You may see it differently but it’s my perspective. I too am the child of a very abusive mother and a father who let it happen. I appreciate my father was there but he also failed to protect me. I see the ACON comments here but where is the engagement with our own enmeshed motherhood. If I have missed it please direct me to the pages because I am craving a discussion on this. I was hoping to find people to engage with on the admittedly very tricky subject when I raised it not get the narc stigma – which means ‘you’re not one of us’ – see what I mean?

            So, once again, this is an apology for hurting you, an explanation for my comment which I admit sounds a bit angry, and hopefully it’s the start of a happier exchange . If I left anything out you want me to respond to let me know – but I might need a few days to drop by again…

            All the very best,
            LC

          2. LC
            I understood your comment (and Q’s) and your right to make it. It raises an issue I think about often. I have been on both sides of the fence (as have many here) and find a very fine line between what people are able to accept as some responsibility for their own actions vs blame. It may be due to where some are in their healing, in large part emotional thinking, the flexing of the vocal chords silenced for so long, and often in the way that it is presented to how it is received. I have been accused also of blaming the victim where that is not my belief or intent, and also of glorifying the narcissist. I think it’s important to raise different perspectives and observations when it is placed for discussion and reasoning is provided (vs just an all out attack with no foundation that we sometimes (gratefully seldom) see here). What I see someone else may not, but that does not change the fact that I do, or open myself and others up to examine if it is never voiced. I don’t believe a hive mentality is healthy. I often think: If only we would exercise a fraction of the tolerance with each other that was continually afforded our abuser.

          3. I agree. It is the abusers fault,

            but _after_ having read about lieutenants, if we continue gushing over that “boss”, or successful ex narc, etc
            we know the consequence:

            We become lieutenants who help abusing and smearing other empaths.

            And that’s our own fault.

          4. NA, I understand what you are saying. I think what causes people to feel frustration and leap to judgement, rather than feel compassion for CoD behavior, is due to a lack of knowledge on the subject (and likely the suffering of abuse in the presence of their CoD parent).

            CoDs lack a sense of self love, self esteem and self worth. As a result, they attempt to find their happiness/sense of self through another. They place responsibility in the hands of others. The coping mechanism of CoD removes any sense of personal agency because their life and well being is tied up in pleasing/accommodating another whom they cannot control. CoDs react to external cues of their CoD partner versus their internal cues or cues from those outside their construct (like their children or friends or therapists).

            One might also argue that Ns and addicts are CoD also. Their lives revolve around their coping mechanism (fuel seeking through another, or relief from coping through alcohol/drugs/etc.). Denial is present in all of these, yet it is so deep and entwined with their survival construct, it is not a conscious choice, it is a far deeper part of how they relate to the world (not logically, but instinctively).

            The problem is not a willful act of placing blinders on and refusal to be aware. The problem lies in a total lack of comprehension that one cannot find any happiness/long-term satisfaction/sense of self through another (person or thing; or from fuel or substances) ever. Real happiness and deep satisfaction is an internal process that springs from genuine self love and self worth.

            Therefore, any attack on, or shaming/blaming of a CoD would not only NOT assist in “waking” the CoD to a new realization, it would add fuel to the fire of their own self loathing or lack of self esteem. Because they are sensitive, they also experience any criticism more painfully. Empathy and education is always a better course of action. CoDs can improve and heal if they are willing and motivated. They must be self motivated to change.

            I am a huge believer in personal responsibility. I also am fortunate to possess a healthy sense of self love. If both of these were removed, I would be at the mercy of others. I am deeply grateful I am not.

            NA, you know I respect all you have overcome and I appreciate you and your comments. I offer this comment as a way of adding to or clarifying the subject of CoD behavior. I hope I did a fair job. I also have respect for CoDs that learn to love themselves and find their voice. I am here to learn and give back, so I welcome all views in reply to this comment.

          5. FYC
            As you said coping and living as a CoD ( when you finally find out that is what you are) is a battle! It’s a battle going on within yourself constantly, it has been one of my many survival techniques for years and you are correct when you say it is instinctual. I have found myself learning to overcome this, however there are times when it kicks in and I do not even realize what I’m doing. I also believe the situations that have caused this in me started in childhood from abuse. But what I find amazing is how many people throughout my life missed all of these signs, Doctors, Teachers, Counselors, and even Therapist over the years didn’t pick up on it, however one consult with HG three years ago and he nailed it within the first fifteen minutes! It wasn’t confirmed until earlier this year when I had the empath consult, I knew however what the results would be and I believe ( even though he never said so ) HG did also. This blog and people like, you, NA, and HG have made a huge difference in my life, I learn from people like you and NA who have different views and prospective and can comment back and forth to each other intelligently. Learning to love and respect yourself after years of abuse both mental and physical is tough to do, sometimes putting yourself and your needs before other’s is even tougher, but because of this very special and safe place that HG has created, I am able to do that very thing. Thank you all very much! 😘🙃

          6. NA: Thank you. It’s very much appreciated.

            FYC: perhaps I should have added: I have not taken the empath detector test, I might eventually out of curiosity – I don’t know if it has the category “dry co-dependent”. I know how life is as a co-dependent from inside out. I think there is an article where HG explains that co-dependency and narcissism are close. The dividing line is the ability to care. Other care is huge in co-dependents, (emotional) self care small. However when emotional self care is low you CANNOT care well for your own children emotionally. You simply can’t understand the emotional needs (all of them or a sufficient amount of them) because they conflict with your need to feed your addiction. And you feed on the children too.

            I don’t mind if you think I’m not educated well enough on the subject, it’s your perspective – I have read the blog articles, not all of the books (yet) but several and, what’s more, I have been seeking treatment with a competent and formidable analyst for almost 5 years now, at the beginning this was 4x week now 3x. I am lucky enough that the country I live in has a health insurance that covers part of my cost-well it did in part for 2 of those years, for the rest I sold my car, left out expensive holidays etc . I don’t see this as a contest on who is more knowledgeable and self-aware. HG does not have so much info on CoD&motherhood – which is understandable (unless I have missed it!) .

            Denial about what we do to our children must go on for a long time because it is almost too much to bear when we realise what we did do. I am not sure if many of the matrinarcs identified by readers are perhaps co-dependents or would themselves be identified as matrinarcs by their own children (its an open question for me).

            My young adult children both think they have a better relationship to their narc/alcohlic dad because he makes things easy for them – whereas I confront my daughter’s grandiosity or my son’s occasional boundary crossing. For them that feels like wounding criticism – and I need all the help I have, mostly to stop the route to codepency and grandiosity. I will see if I am successful. My analyst stops me from swanning off into pink clouds. She also helps me not to lose faith in my ability to influence the dynamic. There is no guarantee but there is hope.

            I actually CARE whereas their father SAYS he does – I know now that caring is also confronting – and I do nothing else here sometimes. My therapist says my children will feel the difference eventually even if they don’t now.

            FYC you say you have enough self love and I am happy that you do. As opposed to you I know how it is to possess none whatsoever. I have been there. And I do not shame and blame anyone who does not. I know however how central it is for a co-dependent’s recovery to take on responsibility for their past actions. To become conscious means to take on responsibility.

            It also involves compassion for anyone who wants to shake up co-dependents a bit.

            Don’t you want to shake up the narc until you realise there’s no point?

            With co-dependents actually there is a point. Ask me about it if you want to know.

            One more point I want to make in response to your criticism of my comment: I think the empath detector thing HG does makes huge sense. My feeling is that there are quite a number of deluded co-dependents here thinking they are super or else (“my narc a greater”). And this is not passing judgement. I’m not entirely sure yet if I buy HGs empath classification (the jury is out on that) – I kind of think he might revise it at some point because he has had so much more contact and insight since he first devised it, after having done the consults etc. As he is top in his field he will revise certain aspects – because this is what top experts do or they would not be top.

            Would be interesting to see a meta-piece on how his own thinking evolved and still evolves.

            Another hunch I have is that he might be working with the various self-images ‘victims’ have to draw them to deeper insight. This is what good therapists do. (meaning the classification might be based on self image – and we know that self and other image clash in those who are involved in narcissistic relationships).

            All best,
            LC

          7. Dear FM1T, I am so happy you found HG. I see your progress in your comments and it is wonderful, impressive and heart warming. Change is not easy for anyone, but even more so for those who were abused in childhood because there is no safe base to spring from or return to unless we build it brick by brick on our own.

            I just reread my comment and want to qualify the part where I used the term “total lack of comprehension” because what I meant was resident understanding and acceptance that happiness/fulfillment and sense of self cannot be gained by or through another. I apologize sincerely if this came across in the wrong way, it was not at all my intent. I struggled to explain what I have come to understand thus far. I have read a great amount of information on CoD as I have familial and friend CoDs that I want to better understand. Of course I will never fully understand to the degree you do, but I feel a great deal of empathy for you and protective of you when people lash out in the belief that you had a choice and simply did not make it. I hope I did right by you and NA. Both of you are/were affected by Ns and CoD (as was I) in one way or another. I stand with you both.

            I admire those who find the strength to overcome. That includes HG, NA and FM1T among many others. I learn from all of you and appreciate you all so much. If you have found value in my comments, I am grateful, and you are always most welcome.😘

          8. FYC
            You have no to need to apologize! You are one that always will look at both sides, we is unusual in its self and just another verification of how amazing you truly are. I cannot speak for NA but you always do right by me. As far as myself being happy that I found HG, most of the time this is correct except when he starts pulling on my pigtails! Big brothers can be such a pain in the bum sometimes and he is no exception! 🤣🙃

          9. Thank you, FM1T. I am glad you feel that way. I had to laugh about HG being a big brother and pulling your pigtails. I think it’s all in affectionate teasing and you handle it with good humor!

          10. Pfffft. I have no other choice! If he would be close enough, I would kick him in the shins and run!! 🤣🙃

          11. FM1T, That might not be such a great idea…seems HG’s bad side is no laughing matter and to be avoided! Besides, escalation yields no good things anyway.

          12. FYC
            I actually think it would be funnier then hell for the people watching him running after me! 🤣🤣🤣🙃 😘

          13. FM1T, Given what HG has written, he would not run after anyone. That would be out of character. He would mastermind a plan of attack and lie in wait to get even when least expected.

          14. Lc, I hope this threads correctly. apologies if it did not foolmetime.
            LC,
            Thank you for your response. it was what I hoped for. I do not think you are a narc. maybe i am . who knows. hg says no and I trust that. I thought that you were angry and frustrated. I felt you just needed a nudge to remember we are in this together. I also needed to hear what you had to say as well. I need to hold myself responsible for the part i play in this mess I got myself into. I felt you were a truth seeker like me. I thought that you would respond. I thought that you would reflect and you did. I also felt i would need to reflect when I received your response and i have, we have a lot we can teach each other.
            You are absolutely right about the kids. They are no living with me anymore. I lost them to this relationship. I am very ashamed of that fact. I need to think about that while i am feeling sorry for myself. yes. your right on that for sure. No one deserves abuse, however, my kids should have come first. I messed up.
            No your right just passing judgement is not a narc trait. I guess i wanted to say lets keep each other honest. keep one another from dropping into behaviors we learned from the narc. grant it some of i can be good, but not if it hurts.
            When you say idolize. you mean HG?
            Please elaborate on the ACON and our motherhood? I am sorry. i will be honest. i don’t understand either word. the one before motherhood and ACON. I have a fun head injury that causes issue with cognitive process at times. i am suddenly having one of those moments. i understood everything until there. and would like to understand.

          15. Oracle there is no need to apologize, I think everyone has had at least one time that there comment has gone to the wrong person. 🙃😊

        2. I don‘t fInd this comment cold at all…She feels sorry for people who refuse to see their own part in the dynamic. I too see a number of people who have blinkers on as regards themselves, I feel sorry for them too and I especially pity their children if they have any. Perhaps it was an unfortunate turn of phrase to say she has a ‚guilty pleasure‘ reading from these commenters, but she is being very honest, and again, not cold. To me it reads as if she wants to shake people a little, wake them up.

          I too find this ‚oo we‘re ever so kind empaths‘ babble unhelpful, it annoys me too but I have got used to it. I just scroll past the names I know will get on my nerves. Ultimately it is a choice to see your own part in the dynamic and seeing it means you‘re ready to change.

          When I wrote something like this before there was outrage along the lines of ‚Nooooooo HG confirmed I was targeted and I could not do anything about that‘ …. yeah right. He also says targets are chosen for a reason.

          I don‘t care much if people choose (!) to stay oblivious to their own destructive behaviour as regards themselves, but what gets to me is when they are like that and have kids. I agree with Q it‘s narcissistic to a degree, and it‘s easy to blame everything on the narc. You LET yourselves be entangled for whatever reason. Certainly not because you‘re kind people. But because you needed something from the relationship. That doesn’t mean you can’t be kind. But it’s not kindness narcs are after but emotional neediness.

          So many people here spew abuse about their narc exes. They are welcome to it but these were guys whom they wanted – most of these guys didn’t even want to go into devaluation consciously.. And now they are like failed appliances. Why not say: I made a huge mistake when I didn’t leave him when things got nasty – and move on by understanding why you didn’t? By learning not only about narcissism but also by taking on some of the responsibility for what happened?

          I do know that insight comes in stages though. If I am breaking a lance for Q here it is because I have sympathy for her position which seems honest, not manipulative and very self-aware.

          1. LC, It’s one thing to skip over some of the comments (I do too) but it’s another to insult the people who make them, including the letter writers. We are here to learn, not to change each other or to punish each other more. It is not all about bashing the narc for any of us. It is also a process of self-discovery. Q is not reading the room.

          2. LC, I see a common thread among most of us to be truth seekers. I wonder where the line is between truth seeking, and being more on the narcissistic end of things and being judgemental? Is it not one of the narc traits to point out someone else and their faults meanwhile insisting that the accuser is innocent of such acts? I may be reading it wrong, but I see a paradox. In one moment expressing how the “ever so kind” empaths have blinders on. I find it hard to believe any of us are not guilty of having blinders on. You are pointing out what you dislike in yourself my friend. Don’t you recognize that, or are you wearing blinders? Do you not see the paradox here? What blows my mind is you defending the abuser. You might have well said “the poor abuser didn’t really want to go into the devaluation”, because that is really how it comes across. Meanwhile your bashing the victim. I will be frank with you. It pisses me the $uck off. Do you really think your that woke?
            From my perspective you need to wake up. I am just floored. Here is why I am so angry. while you sit there passing judgment on the “kind” empath for their part in the dynamic we are getting the snot kicked out of us. We reach out for help and try to take action only receive ridicule, and snide remarks. .just 2 weeks ago, i stood in a hotel lobby covered in my own blood. I called the authorities and reported it, and they took me to the hotel. I stood there in that lobby covered in blood shaking, while people laughed and made snide remarks because i was so dirty from being drug by my hair on the ground. I was so $ucking humiliated. When I got to the desk the room had not been reserved like the officer said it would be. The remarks got worse, which included the front desk clerk. I was in that lobby for almost 2 hours and was reduced to tears. I finally gave up and returned home. I took action, I left, I asked for help, I utilize the resources. The universe answered with “YOU ARE NO ONE! YOU DON’T MATTER! FORGET ABOUT!” No one asked me if I was okay as my face swelled. They only cared about what I told the police. I feel so hopeless. I feel like i am going to die here trapped like this. Yes gosh dangit, I know I got myself here. How the heck would I not know that!?

            My apologies for my outburst, but I am not deleting it. I am asking you to listen to yourself. You do not know everything. Try keeping your side of the street clean and hold your judgement. Helping others and giving back what you have learned might be healing for you. You can’t do that sitting around avoiding someone because you think your so self aware, and know they are the problem and not the narc. I know i am the problem. Just because your stronger than me, doesn’t mean I don’t deserve to escape or to be loved by someone. Do not mistake my kindness for being an idiot. I don’t agree that an empath blames everything on the Narc. Now a narc that doesn’t know what they are might. I know mine does. He beat the crap out of me and then guilted me about it. I was expected to feel bad that he was forced to kick the snot out of me! We are not the enemy to one another. I can’t believe your behaving as if being kind is worse than being a narc. Let’s help each other, not cut each other down. Okay, Mr. Trudor you may not post this. If I am out of line I know you will tell me, but I think I have every right to my opinion, just as LC does. LC launch back at me. It is fine, we need to be honest with each other. Don’t we?

          3. Hi Oracle, I have just read this comment today. I just want to send my love to you and I’m so sorry that you endured that. I wish that I or any of us here were there with you. Actually I wish that the violence never happened to you. You are a precious person and nobody had any right to treat you without dignity. You are amazingly valuable. Nobody had a right to do that to you. I’m so sorry again that you experienced the lowest level of behaviors from humans. You are so strong to have survived all of that. I wish you the best and more power. ❤️

          4. Mommy pino
            I am okay. thank you so much for checking on me though. You remind me so much of me. when I read your words they echo my own. Anyway, I am doing better. That day I nearly gave up on life all together, but now I am taking hold of things again. I got angry, and used that anger, and i am building something out of it. I have new friends that are helping me and believe in my vision and what i can do. In a way, that happening to me, made me turn the corner. For the 1st time in a very long time, i feel like i have hope.
            Thank you again. i am doing well i hope this finds you well too.
            M.

          5. Thank you Oracle. I can also relate very much with the way you express yourself and your words and stories resonates with me. I am so thankful that you didn’t give up on life. I’m very happy that you found good friends to support you and believe in you and be there for you and witness you turn the corner and get your strength and power back. Thank you as well. I am mostly well now although I have just lost my mom whom I love very much. I am so thankful that I got to be with her in her last moments. I am mostly grateful for many things but I have a lot of thoughts in my head. I actually have a big headache right now as I write. I’m just fortunate to have my relatives support me and accept her for who she was. I just visited the blog to maybe distract me a little bit. But I am totally fine except for the massive headache. Love to you Oracle. 💕

          6. MommyP
            I’m sorry to hear that you have lost your mom. Regardless your struggles with her, she was your mother and you loved her. Be kind to yourself.
            NA

          7. Thank you NA. I may have been snappy at you in a different thread. I probably misinterpreted your joke. I apologize for the snappiness.

          8. mommypino
            I am so sorry. It is very difficult to lose a parent, even a narcissistic one and you loved her, too. Please take care and I am very happy to read that you have relatives that are there for you and they accepted her as she was.

          9. My pleasure MommyPino
            Take care of yourself and you are in my thoughts as usual. We had similar mothers so I think about you often.

          10. Thank you K! ❤️ I often think of you as well and it does feel wonderful to find someone who shared the same crazy experiences that I had which I used to think nobody else experienced or can understand. It’s cathartic here at the funeral. In our country, the funeral lasts for 6 – 9 days (I’m not sure if it’s the same in the US. During that period people visit to see the dead and talk about the person. It feels cathartic for everyone to share their crazy experiences with her. Everyone are just laughing and putting all of the pieces of puzzles together. I told them about her NPD also. They all seemed to have found closure and understanding as we talked about our experiences with her. They all said that they care about her in spite of the things that she did. A lot of the stories are so outrageous and funny. Especially when she made most of us act as her lieutenants to do evil deeds for her when we were just children. We just now laugh at all of it and it seems that they feel good that we all understand each other and understand her as well. The knowledge that I learned from this blog did help me in handling all of this.

          11. My pleasure MommyPino!
            Honestly, only people who have had a narcissistic parent can truly understand the experience.

            Wakes/Funerals are usually a two day affair in the northeast. I am so happy that you and your family are together, sharing the memories of your mother and laughing while putting the pieces together. Understanding and sharing your knowledge of NPD will give you and your extended family closure. Some NPD stories can be very funny and entertaining. Enjoy the rest of your time there.

          12. i am concerned about your headache. Let me know your doing okay. i am sorry about mom. I felt the same about my mother when I lost her. Let me know if i can do anything

          13. Thank you Oracle. I’m so much better now. So many relatives were with me to help me process the pain and they are so amazingly supportive of me.

            Thank you and love to you!. ❤️❤️❤️

          14. Thank you for your post Oracle, I’m very sorry that happened to you and I hope you are getting help. I’m sure what you write is true because I know reporting abuse is often pretty much ignored by law enforcement and I’ve seen emergency health workers and then lawyers be awful toward people who have been kicked in life, sometimes over and over again. And the way people get into those circumstances can be surprising, complicated, unexpected and very much misunderstood. There are helpful, empathetic, positive people who can be those professionals too, it just really sucks when you’re being hearded around and objectified and no one acknowledges your humanity, dignity and need for care.

            The biggest reason I agree with your comment is because a lack of empathy is DISTURBING. It is not a strength and it is not awake and in times like you are describing it isn’t even problem solving or solution oriented on a basic level. I would have asked you if you were Ok, Oracle. Some people fucking suck.

            The people you are describing- BLINDERS, not helpful, not able in an emergency to balance emotion and decision making, and I’ve seen empathic people do all at once and well. Impressive.
            So yeah, I agree, LC has blinders on because MOST of us talking here are aware bigger things are going on and are listening and talking, trouble shooting, because everyone IS making progress and finding their way through and out of patterned behavior WHILE being pummeled with LIFE AS IT HAPPENS (it doesn’t stop for convenience), so it doesn’t seem very clear sighted or intelligent to not see that. It is just basically incorrect. It is muddled narcissistic thinking. How can you say all that and not be aware that some people are in process from ten years ago and some people are in process from yesterday? And what’s the expectation, get through it overnight without a discussion? It has to be discussed. I rarely see a pity party on here, so why are we seeing two different things?
            Generally when their is an air of authority, know it all, condescension, “why don’t you just”, I assume narcissistic thought process at the least, everyone’s experiences and ways of handling are different. Two different people can go through wildly different things. Also, I walk around every day, as an actually decently, above average, self-aware thinking person and look at empaths, normals and narcs alike and the average person has no fucking clue what they are even thinking, so it’s pretty damned arrogant to think you’ve got it on lock. The awareness level here is definitely above average. Have you been to other blogs? This lack of respect for intelligent conversation screams “NAP TIME”.

          15. Oracle, First let me say that I am so sorry that in your moment of extreme need you were not met with emotional empathy, care and protection. You were treated horribly. I’m so sad and disturbed by the level of abuse you have endured and survived in life. I sincerely hope you have since found more supportive people and resources you can rely upon. Most of us on the blog are her for you and our hearts go out to you. We do not judge you.

            With regard to Q and LC, it is abundantly clear they have very different perceptional filters at work from most others here.

            Claiming pity, yet proceeding to blame shift abuse to the victim demonstrates a lack of empathy and understanding and a rush to judgment. Abusers are responsible for their actions. Full stop. Both narcissism and codependency are the result of abuse and are formed as a coping mechanism (coping means to survive or subsist—not gain control or have awareness). Their original abuse and LOCE obliterated their sense of choice. Anyone who asserts CoDs are waiting for the next narcissist to make them unhappy lacks any comprehension of the dynamics involved. Suggesting the abused is to blame for their abuse is not only false, but inflicts new abuse on the victim.

            To make excuses for such commentary and shaming and blaming the victims via terms such as ‘empaths’ babble’ and ‘spew’ and ‘choosing to stay oblivious’ and ‘let yourself be entangled’ demonstrates contempt and highlights a lack of understanding. To state Ns are “after emotional neediness” denotes another gaping hole in resident knowledge. Narcissists seek fuel (read Fuel and the prime aims), residual benefits and character traits. My understanding is that Ns loathe neediness. They seek emotional empathy as fuel and they are not observant of anyone’s personal boundaries due to their entitlement. HG has consistently stated that no matter how perfect a person is, devaluation will occur if for no other reason that fuel always becomes stale. No one seeks devaluation per se, unless it is the N’s desire to seek negative fuel. While the comments of Q and LC may be direct and possibly self-aware, they are entirely lacking in ‘other’ awareness.

            Several studies confirm few people are highly self aware. Even fewer people are willing, able and seek to undertake real change. We all have blind spots and need assistance to raise our awareness. HG’s blunt honesty strips away denial and his knowledge, understanding and methods support positive change. My hope is that future comments here would support this process as well.

          16. FYC,

            Thank-you for your reply to Oracle; it (as well Nunya Biz’s) restored my faith in humanity.

            And Oracle – you had every right to your ‘outburst’…I hope you are doing better ♥️
            I know that feeling; like your heart is going to burst or head is going to explode – unless you can get the words out in response to someone’s thick headedness. (And I’m so thankful for HG allowing this place to do that…and for allowing some of my past outbursts).
            But I also know that way of thinking…”Well, I may have allowed my type of abuse (whatever it was) but I would NEVER have allowed x, y, z (fill in the blanks) because of…(fill in the blank again.)
            It is so easy to judge another’s experience because we think we are ‘in the know’ now but it is important to remember how excellent abusers are at (instinctively or otherwise) about selecting a target who is particularly susceptible to allowing certain barriers and boundaries to breached. I used to say I wish that my abuser had done something so overt like physical abuse (no disrespect to recipients of physical abuse) that I could “recognize” it and then leave but no, my abuser, over time, used my sense of generosity and natural inclination to support those I care about in such a way that my most detrimental experience (other than emotional damage) was the damage to my finances (thankfully money – unlike people – can always be replaced).
            I’m all for listening and learning before judging…

          17. Hello WhoCares, No thanks necessary, it was a reflexive must. That said, you are welcome and always appreciated. I hope you are doing well in your new home or at least better each day. I wish you peace and happiness.

        1. Blackunicorn
          If you read the comment from Princess to me, she found another time Q and I commented with one another. If you read that comment, you will understand. I know people have bad days and vent, but she crossed the line when she started the judging and name calling.
          Don’t stay away so long BU, I like reading you comments. 🙃🌻

          1. Yes, I saw the comment after I’d posted, unfortunately.
            Thank you for asking me to comment more… I very rarely get chance to be on my own, and when I am, time is short and I can’t always catch up properly. And also, by the time I do get chance, people have already said what I want to say, lol! I will try though, I’m quite shy irl and it looks like I am online as well!!! 😂

  5. Getting There
    When I seen the black and white in comment my thoughts automatically went to HG and what he has taught us. Now with your comment back to me I don’t know the answers to your thoughts and questions. But I know who does. HG what is your thoughts on narcissists who physically abuse others, are there thoughts going on before, during, and after the abuse? Are they just seeing red? What about abusers that are not narcissists, do you have any knowledge on them, does there cognitive ability just shut down? I know you knowledge is on narcissism, but perhaps you have thoughts on those that are not narcissists and are abusers? Thank you for taking the time to read this.

    1. Hello, foolme1time.

      I understand what you were saying. When I am not concentrating on a specific narcissist, I tend to have my mind go in different directions based on something I see or hear. I’m sorry, I realize that it did take away from the point you were making.
      I think I would need to talk to multiple people who do it to truly understand. Thanks for being willing to help me with answers by asking HG!

      1. Getting There

        No need to apologize at all! My mind goes in different directions at the same time all of the time. 🤣
        Your questions were of interest to me and I did not know the answers either. Throwing it out there to HG doesn’t mean I expect him to answer, you can usually find the answers with out his help if you know what to look for, which I didn’t, or making sure there is enough information for the fabulous K to help out with!! Which she did! Just check the comments below yours and you will find HGs answers to your questions thanks to K!😘

    2. foolme1time

      Pamela
      JUNE 16, 2017 AT 19:56
      Physically harm a woman?

      HG Tudor
      JUNE 18, 2017 AT 12:22
      Never have done so, it is beneath me.

      https://narcsite.com/2017/04/27/17-salvos-of-silence/#comments

      There are no thoughts before, during or after. He is a machine and the only thing he wants is total and absolute control and violence is necessary to achieve this and the victim deserved it. He would then compartmentalize it. It never happened, irrespective of the bruises or broken bones.

      In my experience, all of the physically abusive people that I grew up with were all narcissists. Normals and empaths would only react violently in self-defence.

        1. My pleasure foolme1time!!!
          Physical and sexual violence are very, very difficult topics, almost too painful to discuss sometimes. The memories are horrific.

      1. Thank you, foolme1time!

        Thank you, K, for the information! Now I have other “whys” and “hows” rolling in my head based on this information. I once heard that a person should never try to tear down another’s defense mechanism unless they will be a strong support and around a lot. I think I am starting to truly understand that statement. Some defense mechanisms are truly powerful, and now wonder how much my role in each of my relationships were connected to a type of defense mechanism.

        1. My pleasure Getting There!
          When you think about it, we all have defence mechanisms to a certain degree and it does compel us to look at ourselves and understand how and why we attract certain personalities. It is quite fascinating.

          1. You’re right, K!
            We do all have defense mechanisms and it really is fascinating to think about. I now wonder if empaths have one that we will never be able to see like the majority of narcissists.

          2. Wise K, I want to thank you for helping me realize a truth. I’m sorry it is not in direct reference to this post, but I could not find a spot to reply well below in comments where you mention that we can let go of our anger because we understand what is happening and why.

            I have felt very frustrated versus angry about the ongoing, manipulations of my VMRN parent, but I realize now how useless it is to be frustrated. What you said clicked. In my following interaction, I let it all go. Every manipulative attempt I just knew there was no point and I changed the topic. No more attempts to be understood or defend the truth. I just saw it for what it is. I don’t think the attempts will stop, but it won’t matter. I’m on a better track thanks to your wise words. Thank you so much for inspiring this release.

          3. Thank you FYC!
            And you are very welcome and you don’t have to apologize; you didn’t do anything wrong.

            It can be very difficult to deal with a narcissistic parent and you did an excellent job at recognizing the manipulations, controlling how YOU responded and then changing the subject; redirected. (Mirroring: if you were a narcissist, redirection would be deflection. We are exactly alike but completely different)

            Don’t waste your breath or energy explaining or wanting to be understood; your frustration, truth seeking and explanations are all pure fuel or challenge fuel and indicate that you are under their control.

            The attempts will not stop and your ET may spike-that’s ok-recognize it, pause and let the LT take over. Pretend that NPD is a congenital medical condition and the manipulations are the symptoms of the disease, then let it go. Enjoy the release. It feels fantastic!

          4. K, That’s some very good advice right there. I just had an ET spike with Matrinarc. I even told her to shut up and listen. But then I calmed down, finished the conversation, and vented to my niece until my LT returned. We were both mystified at the conversation (why does she say things like that?).

          5. Thank you SMH!
            Ha ha ha…”shut up and listen” is some nice challenge fuel! Your mother’s NPD (medical condition) compels her to use a variety of manipulations in order to generate an emotional response from you and she will use any form of provocation to elicit that emotional response.

            Beware of the symptoms/manipulations.

          6. K, She did manipulate at the end but otherwise she was just filling up space. I know a few female Ns and they all do the same thing. They have what we used to call diarrhea of the mouth. They cannot listen because they are too busy talking.

          7. SMH
            My mother never shuts up (unless she is asleep or eating) and she doesn’t listen to a thing anyone else says. She talks right over people like a bulldozer.

          8. Mine too, K. And if you are on the phone with her she will suddenly say ‘that’s it,’ and hang up. So she spews all of this nonsense and then leaves. No wonder I have to take a valium to ‘talk’ (really listen) to her.

          9. SMH
            My mothers speaks loudly, repeats herself 4-5 times, asks questions but doesn’t listen or wait for my answers, babbles incoherently and then abruptly hangs-up on me. I usually don’t get a word in edgewise and I hold the phone away from my ear to preserve my hearing.

            It makes me think of the song: Twilight Zone

            “And he says
            Help, I’m steppin’ into the twilight zone
            Place is a madhouse, feels like being cold”

          10. K, That was a brilliant description. lol. Maybe we are sisters from the same mother? I have GOT to learn how to deal with it because soon I will be primo caregiver, at least for a few months. Luckily my father is still alive too and they keep each other company though they are both past 90 and he still insists they are getting divorced, which has been part of the dynamic since I was about 13 or so.

          11. Thank you SMH
            We could be compartmentalized sisters from two different families, think: bigamy. They all follow the same playbook. You better get your ET under wraps fast! Reading really helps with ET and then post your frustration here or talk it out IRL.

            Ha ha ha…Your father still insisting that they are getting a divorce is a Future Fake! My mother has been saying that she needs to get a Will for the past twenty years. They are all the same!

          12. K, compartmentalized sister, I am stocking up on drugs. That is how I deal with my mother. Luckily, I won’t be living anywhere near them. I just have to visit occasionally and I will post here as needed since mother is the only narc in my life right now. My father, well, I don’t think he’s a narc. He’s rather more of an empath with an anger management problem. The both of them are now obsessed about money in their dotage. They are very comfortable but both of them have some sort of money-focused dementia. I mean are they really going to run out before they die? They are in their 90s! Anyway, I really did not have good role models growing up. No wonder I am so fucked up.

          13. SMH
            Ha ha ha…my mother is obsessed with money, too. Some of my narcs think they are going to live forever. I think that is part of their perceived omnipotence, control and magical thinking.

          14. Thank you again, K! I am embarrassed to admit I spent many years trying to defend the truth, right wrongs, peace keep and avoid drama and manipulation. Unfortunately I did not know much about narcissism until the last few years. If I had known what I learned here years ago, I would have made many different decisions. VMRNs are insidious and take zero personal responsibility.

            Thanks to HG’s crystal clear descriptions, I know what I am dealing with and I maintain boundaries and limit interaction. Yet I had not fully let go (damn tenacity!) and this was causing frustration that would linger for a day or two.

            When I read your post it stuck with me. I knew you were right. I used your wise advice during the very next interaction and it worked. I listened to their comment, and replied, “I understand how you feel,” then asked a question about a different topic. I saw the what and the why, but it did not trigger me. Three more interactions and same result.

            K, I did not understand, “We are exactly alike, but completely different.” Is that illogical sentence an example of narc speak mirroring? I thought narc mirroring was when they pretend they share the same views/interests? I don’t want to miss anything here so please enlighten me.

            Thank you again, K, your insights are very appreciated.

          15. My pleasure FYC!
            Don’t be embarrassed. We are empaths and that is what we do: keep the peace, defend the truth and seek justice for all. We are tenacious and that is why we are chosen. If narcsite existed 30 years ago, life would be completely different for many of us. VMRNs, all narcs for that matter, take ZERO responsibility for their behaviour. They are hideous!

            It takes time to let go, that is your ET at work and it eventually resolves itself. Feel your feelings then let them go and move forward.

            When you interact with narcissists, bring the logic to the fore ASAP, I know they can’t help it so I just observe and I am nice to them. It is not their fault. Sometimes I feel sad for them, although, I do have some Mids that I hate and avoid like the plague.

            The sentence is illogical on the surface, however, we are more alike then we realize and rather than focusing on how we are different, I focussed on how we were alike. We want love; they want fuel; same difference.

            Empaths, apaths, narcissists and psychopaths can all mirror (motor empathy) so I spin or flip things to see the other side so I can understand something/one better. I also reflect their behavior back at them and they don’t like that at all.

          16. Dear K, Thank you so much. It’s funny how things work together in life. I have combined your wise advise with HG’s brilliant concept of having a memory but not giving energy to it. You both made me realize I have far more choices than I believed. I have applied both principles and am feeling very free.

            Thank you for clarifying your sentence, I see your point now. I really appreciate your wisdom and your taking the time to share your insights with me. You are very appreciated.

          17. My pleasure FYC
            Enjoy your freedom! When it makes sense, everything just falls into place.

  6. Q. You seem to value the abuser more than the abused. Even abusers have to learn to modify their behavior, over time, before it catches up with them. Many abusers sit in the penitentiary this very day. Many others have been killed in this life, for their actions. And still others live, looking over their shoulders in paranoia every day, wondering when Justice will strike them. Many of us were raised to turn the other cheek for our loved ones as much as possible. Some people entertain abuse longer than others. That is no reason to despise them. We all are weak in certain areas of our journey in life. Some of our weaknesses are visible to all and some are well hidden. And none of us can recreate the past. We are here to learn and grow to make our life better as much as possible, going forward. We go through many stages, such as, for example: what is happening to me? What is a narcissist? I am ensnared by a Narcissist! I feel better now. Maybe he or she is not a narcissist. I feel even better now. Maybe, I am the Narcissist! I feel stronger and almost well. I miss the Narcissist! No, I am not the narcissist, and I will do my best to never become ensnared by this or any other Narcissist ever again! Yet, it still can happen. So, there is need to call anyone an idiot. It is like going into a hospital and yelling that the people seeking assistance are sick. What good would that do? Or, going into a restaurant and yelling that people are hungry that are sitting for a meal. Is that beneficial in any way? But, if one insists, please know that calling us idiots is quite redundant. We have called ourselves that and more and even much worse, when we take a breather and look things over. But, name calling only works for so long. We still have to make decisions and take actions regarding our hard learned lessons. And, we have to work to stay safe in our various circumstances. Also, everyone can not treat us a certain way. Sometimes, we all can end up in a perfect storm with certain individuals, or in certain situations that take advantage of our weaknesses, whatever our weaknesses are, at any given time. We ALL have weaknesses. Even abusers sometimes haplessly meet their match some day. When we can extricate ourselves from a vicious cycle, in whatever arena we have a weakness, we are doing well. None of us see ourselves 100 percent, and we all are constantly changing as well. We all make mistakes, and we all still have to deal with the aftermath, whether we accept blame for what we do, or whether we do not accept blame for what we do. And whether or not we have empathy for others, or they us. And, we all want a little grace and mercy and to catch an underserved break, at times. And hopefully we all will become wiser, day by day. And, finding people whom can understand all of this, and will even support and advise and strengthen us in our journey, is what is wonderfully Unbelievable. Priceless even.

  7. Reading through these letters I understand how pathetic I must have looked putting up with this crap taking the abuse and letting them back in or have some affect over my emotions to having control over hurting me I am a very different person now it’s not malice or hatred or any kind of negative emotion it really is just self love every day I feel stronger I’m stopped overthinking as much it is what it is I have neither the time nor the patience to try and change that on anyone but I have a much higher expectation of how I am treated and with 7 billion people in the world I do not need to go to someone especially one that just wants to control or hurt me and honestly say I genuinely do not care either way any more

  8. This one reminds me a lot of my mom and what she went through with my disgusting narc stepfather. I’ve also never understand how a woman could tolerate this treatment, but it is not that easy to escape from. I hope you are doing ok CV, and free of this nightmare once and for all.

  9. I am sorry to say it, but someone who is beaten, keeps staying in a relationship and writes letters about it is a complete idiot, who doesn’t value herself at all. Reading all the letters posted by HG shows what kind of people stay with narcs and what kind of people are targeted and why. It’s unbelievable!
    “But yet I still defended you, I told the police I hit my mouth on the dash when you hit the brake. ”
    She didn’t mind she had been beaten, she minded having him only for her. In her mind, being beaten was ok, as long as he was not cheating.
    Unbeliavable!

    1. You’re not sorry to say it. You’re opinion is yours to make. It does fail to understand the power of ET which people invariably do.

      1. Q, congratulations on being the type of person who would not allow a person to abuse them and stay. That’s good. Many of us need to learn to be more like that quality of yours in not accepting any form of abuse.
        I have a tendency to react in a negative emotional ways, at times. My times usually are when I feel like someone or something important to me is being impacted in a significant negative way. Maybe you know someone important to you who has stayed in such a relationship and thus your opinion written in such a fashion.

        I think these letters are brave. Are they meant to be shared with the one who hurt them? No. It is meant to finally voice what they held in. For a victim to feel that they can put it in words is big; and to share it with the world not knowing how others will react and be vulnerable – brave! I will never be that brave so I thank those who are and give a voice for the rest of us. Mind you, I wasn’t physically abused so this particular letter gives a voice for others and the victim.

        You are correct in that not every one would stay with an abusive person. I think HG’s work covers a lot of who would and why. One reader once brought up a great point in that many people were brought up to think certain behaviors are normal or that “love” is defined by that abuse. Bad cycles need to end, but how? For those brought up in a good home taught love, empathy, compassion, forgiveness of all, put others before you at all times – how do we help that forgiveness of abuse doesn’t mean being there for the next round?
        Do you know how many news stories there are lately of significant others who have ended up killed lately because they do decide to leave? Fear is a powerful driver.
        I assume you still being at this site means you are trying to understand things. That’s great! Please try to understand with more compassion that sometimes choices are not always black and white.

          1. foolme1time, thank you!

            Your comment has led me to think about the mind of the ones who do physically abuse before, during, and immediately after the action. Are there thoughts going on? Are they just seeing red and cognitive ability is shut down? If there are no thoughts, how long after the action do the thoughts start going?

        1. “Maybe you know someone important to you who has stayed in such a relationship and thus your opinion written in such a fashion.”

          I remember Q has mentioned before that her/his mother was a codependent who lived a most unhappy life and a lot of commenters here remind her/him of her.

          Q, I hope that in your efforts here in this blog to understand narcissists you will also finally be able to understand victims like your mom. And I hope that with more understanding you will eventually find it in your heart to forgive her and accept her for her choices and the way that she lived her life. Despite knowing that she could have done better and she could have had a better life, I hope that you will forgive the fact that maybe she was just not aware of her options and be grateful that her world is not your world now.

          1. Thank you, mommypino!
            Q, I’m sorry your mom went through so much. I have no idea what you have experienced or watched as a child. I understand that pain impacts all of us differently; and I hope, like mommypino, that you can soon understand what happened and be able to start healing.

    2. Q—with all due respect… I care for women who are beaten quite a bit in my job. Please know that they aren’t functioning on all cylinders mentally once caught up in this quagmire of hell. It was always easy for me to dismiss my situation was “abusive” because I was socially ahead of these women, educated, top of my class or near the top with little effort my entire life, ok. It is not about idiocy. Value? I’ll accept some of that declaration. I have a co-worker (a physician) tell me she never would have put up with what I did. I was shocked and humbled. See, she heard how my ex spoke to me on the phone. She left a physically violent relationship and I always thought maybe she was the “idiot!” She said in between the physical stuff there were periods of respite. She was judging me—I was judging her. Can you accept that when someone is repeatedly mistreated their thinking is altered? When I see these women I know that much of my “teaching” is fighting against clay soil. Please be kinder and not judge. It took a long time for my critical thinking to totally return. The abuse does “dull” innate ability but it’s not inborn idiocy that creates this.

      1. Claire, so true that when someone is repeatedly mistreated their thinking is altered. Systematic abuse over a long period of time changes the structure of the brain.

    3. You are right, Q. The woman does not (or did not) value herself at all.

      While it is understandably unbelievable, it is very real and makes total sense if you think about it this way: The narcissist is a parasite that feeds off a once-valuable host until he or she sucks all (or almost all) the value out of the empath host.

      I feel lucky that I found HG, from whom I have obtained skills that enable me to recoup my value.

      1. Excellent analogy Lisk. That is why we become a malfunctioning unit—nothing is left. Leeches fall off when the blood is gone.

    4. Q
      How do you know she is an idiot? Where is the evidence? Do you know her? Have you lived her life? Do you know what it is like to be in survivor mode? Do you know what it is like to be hit and punched and raped and raped and raped, by the person you ran to when you were a child being molested because you thought you would be safe with him? Do you know what it is like to have two small children and when you do work up the courage to leave and there is no place go, so you go to parents only to be told you can stay the night but you can not live here! Do you know any of these things? What gives you the right to judge someone else? If you can not answer yes to any of these questions, then you are the idiot! The woman that wrote this letter was surviving the only way she knew how! She finally found her way out! You have no right to judge her or anyone else on this blog who are here for the help, knowledge and understanding that this blog stands for! You’re an idiot!

      1. That was my thinking, fm1t. Some people were born into no resources and I guess are expected to conjure them out of their ass along with a straight mind while being abused as well.

        Empathy.

        1. Spot on. I am so fortunate thank goodness for the resources of my family and to an extent my own. I didn’t aspire for great wealth in pursuit of my work but it’s reasonable. Resources are so scarce for so few. I’m one of the luckiest people on the planet compared to the world’s population in terms of being able to get what I need. These woman (and I had a male patient the other day this is applicable to) that have no where but a temporary shelter to go to. I spent all this time always thinking I was better than “them” and I’m fundamentally the same. Not one bit better or different on a cellular level.

          1. I love this line of thought, Clair, I relate to altering my perceptions and judgments on so many things. I have had similar problems to many and yet thought myself above others problems. I have sorted enough to be able to understand at least some of what happens to people who are not me or anything like me because I worked through some of what has happened to me. I feel so fortunate to have at least the intelligence and health god gave me to work through some of my road blocks. There are many shades and levels of “fortune”. And I have had to live with the fear of being without family or home for some of my life and luckily have never had to face that fear directly so far. One of my currently available resources is determination and at least some shrewdness.

            Beautiful gratitude in your comment, it is one of my favorite emotions.

            FM1T, I just love your observations, about having a voice and about being cathartic, which is very astute.

          2. Thanks Nunya—my dad was a narcissist but maybe I felt just “safe enough” due to having all my basic needs met—my mom was pretty preoccupied and generally disengaged. It’s like our lives are a series of ingredients. She isn’t disengaged now—she was wrapped up in working etc. I did have everything anyone could want though—many of the women that are physically abused that do come from more unstable beginnings probably have more inherent strength. I am only swimming a little because I simply didn’t drown. These women are tenacious and strong when they do overcome—I’ve seen some of them. It’s like dynamite unleashed.

          3. Nunya
            I only discovered how beneficial writing was to me shortly after I found HG and the blog. I was told writing down my story from beginning to end would or could be very beneficial. That assumption was correct. I now continue writing thoughts, questions, and even short stories in a journal that I have purchased.

          4. Thank you for sharing about your background, Claire. I know what you mean about dynamite I think, I see really strong proud women sometimes. I have a friend also who is a nurse who divorced a narcissist and she runs the floor in a mental health ward, holy smokes. She tells me crazy stories about having to take people on when they come in on drugs and the doctors won’t go near them. She is so tough and I honestly think her ex is scared of her (she is small and kind and smart, just not dumb as he’d like I guess) but he’s still a complete ass all the time and uses the child as a pawn. She just handles it and is very pragmatic. I think I would have an overload trying to deal with custody because the idea of my kids being alone with someone trying to manipulate everything and not being able to fight it…I think I would lose it completely. But I’ve seen a few women go through it and be strong and I also know of one man with an N ex wife.

            My childhood was weird and my dad had sweetness sometimes so I was confused, but I remember weird stuff, like I became fascinated with this bike hanging in the window at a local convenience store, it was the prize for collecting money for Muscular Dystrophy so I went door to door asking for money to put in my can they gave me. I wanted that bike, it was so brand new in the window and I don’t think many kids tried to get the money collected and I won the bike. I was so excited but my dad went to pick it up and later told me he sold it because it was a boy’s bike and he’d get me a girl’s bike. I never even got to touch it. Of course I got a crappy used bike. He ALWAYS did stuff like that.

          5. Nunya—my first thought was “What a dick.” F#%*. “What a dick.” My dad was capable of that shit but I didn’t get it from him—my brothers yes did get a brand of it. Nursing is fun—it’s basically an entry level sort of education you can do a ton of stuff with. There are many nurses who just don’t know a lot or endeavor highly. Kinda like social work—you can do a million things but you have to go to grad school.

          6. Thank you, K. It was shitty. He did a few things like that, that I recall. Another was having my sister and I work for him for six weeks over the summer labeling packages. We did it reasonably for 10ish and 13ish year olds, but fooled around some. He said he’d pay us at the end of the summer, but then when I asked about the money he said that we should be willing to do work for our family for free or something. He made a business trade for me to get braces in my teens and never completed payment, I had uncared for braces on my teeth for two extra years. He was well known by family members to recruit “investment” that would never pay out or be returned, etc… He blamed his diabetes on genetics rather than bad habits. He often overworked himself, not sleeping enough, on get rich type schemes. He had some good qualities though, just also a strange guy. I think if he’d somehow had extra money he would have thrown it at me some, just not very consciously or consistently.
            He told me I was his favorite many times and wanted me involved in his new business plans whenever they came about and recruited my support often.
            I think he is ULV. He was never addicted to substances and hated being out of control of his mind, but did gamble some. Ideas like making it big as a gambler or winning something out of calculated luck or becoming the best at something and winning something that seemed attainable to him held a lot of appeal for his fantasies. It’s kind of a trip now for me to think about my constant exposure to this line of thought.

            Something I appreciate about Judd Apatow, I feel he has a fondness for writing this type of father character into his movies and the unhealthy dynamic it creates.

          7. Omg my dad had some parallels to your descriptors.. To include and expand—a lack of normal connections—poor boundaries—sexually inappropriate—everyone was stupid (except me)—get rich schemes—hated his empathic sister—devaluations all over the place.. Funny thing is that no one knows what that was all about. They don’t know why he had the best garden/flowers, why he had to be the smartest. (And was)
            I do now though. I feel absolutely nothing but fondness though—How crazy is that. How could I not? I was given everything and it’s all I knew. He was far from “all bad”—we see shades of gray and they see black and white. It doesn’t mean my feelings have to change, it has simply opened up new insights. I was groomed from day one. My mom’s dad was a narcissist. She and her sisters all married narcissists and her brother become one. I suspect my dad’s mom was a narcissist—she abandoned he and his brother in their youth—the cycle repeated. We have a high ratio of narcissism in the family. I have not calculated it but 1/6 seems less than our particular contribution to the world narcissist population. Slightly more at least. Fortunately my brothers and their children appear unscathed. There are these people out here playing life with a difference currency. They have Monopoly money and people have no idea.

          8. nunya biz
            Your comment is a plethora of NPD.

            A classic Future Fake: 6 weeks of child labor and no pay = assertion of superiority, multiple fuel streams from your disappointed faces, words and tone and residual benefits (labeling packages for free). Followed by further FFs: uncared for braces and investments that never payed out or returned = more fuel, control and residual benefits. People get angry when investments go south. The Prime Aims were being met.

            Of course his bad habits had nothing to do with his diabetes (from his perspective); he is entitled to eat, drink and be merry and he isn’t accountable for his health because his diabetes is a result of genetics (blame shift). Things That Make You Go Hmmmm….

            Overworked himself = needs to avoid boredom and search for fresher fuel. The wife is stale.
            Not sleeping enough = more fuel damn it! Sleep is a waste!
            Get rich type schemes = Magical thinking.

            If he threw extra money at you, that would be benign control (benign hoover) binding and facade maintenance. All done unconsciously because he didn’t know he was a narcissist.

            Triangulation: you were his favorite! He used flattery for benign control, binding and to draw you into his new business plans (benign hoover). Your support/help was a residual benefit and positive fuel. Negative fuel from another family member, if there was competition/jealousy (contrast).

            There is no addiction to any substances but he may have had a small gambling addiction and “Ideas like making it big as a gambler or winning something out of calculated luck or becoming the best” are indicative of magical thinking and perhaps his perceived omnipotence.

            Yes, JA writes about this unhealthy dynamic and now we know how to translate it! Brilliant!

          9. Damn K. I need to bookmark this! HG should be proud. This hits the mark like wow.

          10. Claire
            Ha ha ha….Thank you! Once my ET cleared up, I was able to really absorb all the information much better. I am on a roll.

          11. I actually shared this bit of insight you clearly illuminated with an interested party:)
            Like this is what we do here—smacks the pants off the wallowing holes.. I can’t hate my dad but you described him so well.. Nunya and I identified some parallels so therein lies the adoration for what you wrote. I meant it when I said my dad would have nailed my husband’s balls by now in this divorce. Isn’t it insane how this shit is so hard to “see” if you aren’t educated by the best? When painted white an angry narcissist working in your corner is an asset.

          12. Claire
            Thank you and please keep sharing and spreading the word about narcsite and how much we learn here. HG is our only hope. (think: Star Wars). This place smacks the pants off the wallowing holes, the APA and Quantico.

            You and Nunya do not have to hate your dad(s). Your father’s behavior makes sense now and that knowledge helps you understand and move forward, also, it allows you to let go of anger, confusion, hate, etc. It is a good place to be; you feel free.

            If your father were alive, you (and your husband) would be an appliance in his fuel matrix and he would be protective of his asset (you) so your husband’s behavior in the divorce would be considered challenge fuel, possibly commingled with wounding, thus igniting your father’s fury. Hubby would be painted black and punished for his treachery (triangulation: you are painted white). Nailing his balls would heal the challenge/wound by providing some excellent fuel from your husband’s high pitched screams of pain and terror or from his pleas for mercy. Either way your dad would be fueled and in control (the control lies in the violence/threats of violence) thus reinforcing his sense of superiority and self-worth. Dad would also get some excellent positive fuel from you for taking care of that ne’er-do-well (contrast). All is well in Narc Vegas!

            I like the ancient proverb: The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

          13. Yes—you just articulated the entire sequence of what was in my head! More beautifully than I would have. I swear—the therapist would have me trying to do EMDR to re-process how absolutely uncomfortable I was each time he made (for instance) a sexual overture. Tell me how being made to feel uncomfortable and anxious is healing? Only a moron wouldn’t feel uncomfortable “re-living or processing” the abhorrent behavior of another person in regard to being perpetrated sexually. I can cognitively process that his behavior was not my fault—even before realizing what he was. Traditional psychology is riddled with well intended horse shit. HG should be proud—I referred his work to a psychologist with no warning of how creepy he is yesterday. He will know what I mean—previously I did say he was a little creepy. (Sorry HG—it’s just, well, it’s just different)

          14. Listen—you are the mysterious one. Not me—there is even a google image of me and douche bag right there.. (how do I get rid of it??) I am totally not the fat bridesmaid in the equation and I have a facade to manage.

          15. Claire
            Call me the narc whisperer: an empath who adopts a sympathetic view of the motives, needs, and desires of the narcissist based on HGTU training.

            A lot of traditional psychology is nothing but a load of malarky. I don’t need to relive or reprocess anything. What a waste of time and money! And don’t get me started on platitudes.

          16. K—how long have you been on here? (If I’ve asked before I apologize.) I’m hoping to aspire for some improvement. I’m at times (often in fact) able to suspect a narcissistic disposition enough to unquestionably “stay away.” It’s so easy at times to see. There are also flagrant empathic types—although I feel they are less identifiable in quantity. I’m not sure why—they consume a higher percentage of people according to HG. Maybe because I’m worried they are narcissists in disguise. He said empaths 25%, narcs 15%, normals and narcissistic (non pathological) people add to the remaining.. Right HG?
            So—my issue somewhat parallels with the “narc whisperer” element. I trust HG’s judgement implicitly. I’ll never be on his
            level in regard to this subject. (As he will never be on mine when it comes to the capacity to really care about people.) It’s just a difference as we are set up with different capacities. K—is there a point you’ve reached where determining behaviors allow you to ascertain an empathic vs. narcissist disposition where at one time you felt less certain? I’ve seen others struggle similarly here. For instance, the Kim Cattrall/SJP question recently—is it both narcs/empath vs. narc.. It feels essential to improve on this because I am such a magnet—and I make acquaintances easily. Maybe I shouldn’t. Likely I completely need to shatter my entire deportment to be mainly discerning. I have a visceral disgust to being hoodwinked. I had a friend offer her unemployed former spouse to help me fix some things in the house a few days ago. I know he’s a narcissist. He was fired from a high level job for creating a toxic work environment and she basically said he was an emotionally cold passive aggressive dick for years. Yet— he’s handy.. I thought, “How bad can it be..” I called him. Holy shit—within two minutes I had him tell me all about the struggles of being a 50 year old unemployed doctorate level chemist. I was nauseous. I was not amused. I have another guy coming tomorrow instead. I can’t stomach her ex-husband. Maybe in an emergency since he is around the corner—but not for hours on end! I’m depleted catering to the nonsense and I’m
            desperate to better decipher behaviors. His—easy easy to see. Enough to know he’s a pompous dick. Others—I’ll let them in the door and find out 5 months later—not in the first 5 min! Some give a beautiful version of themselves. That’s the problem. A narc detector? When all you see illustrated is excellence how can HG even help when he goes by what we tell him? We may only see excellence as a secondary source. This is not in regard to romantic relationships at all. I don’t need this in my life but I’m surrounded by co-workers and social events and I’m wishing to exercise more caution. Does this get tons better for some? I am completely aghast at how some of my work friends have treated others at my job for instance. I had zero clue, not one re, the truth of behaviors others have experienced. It’s a big F’ing deal. I almost booked a trip to Shanghai with one of these women and have Bocelli tickets for us. That’s getting pretty close. 4 years of working together. I “like her” but I don’t condone her bullying of others. I am quite upset.

          17. Claire
            No need to apologize. There is a lot of information here and it’s difficult to keep track of it all so ask any question any time and I don’t mind repetition. I have been on narcsite for a little over two years.

            Recently, I feel more confident identifying mid-range narcissists IRL and here on the blog and I am getting better with empaths. Empaths are rare in my real life; they are all here. Keep reading and posting and your narc detecting skills will improve exponentially. Learning is incremental, practice makes perfect and don’t be afraid to make mistakes. Shit happens.

            Take your disgust at being hoodwinked and flip it. Turn it into a learning moment. Ha ha ha..“How bad can it be..” ha ha ha…worse than you can imagine! The ex-husband scenario is one of the best ways to ID a narcissist. They go on and on about how difficult/unfair life is and how they are the victim in this cruel, cruel world and they bear absolutely no responsibility for their own demise. Zero insight! That is how you know you are dealing with a narcissist. Holy shit! They give themselves away by the words they use; NarcSpeak.

            The ones with good facades are more difficult to decipher but, the more you read and pay attention, it becomes easier and easier to ferret them out. My IRL Ns hate the illegals (Mexicans), they are often racists/ misandrists/misogynists, the altar boys were to blame for the Catholic Sex Abuse Scandal and rape victims were asking for it. They have NO emotional empathy. They cannot put themselves in another person’s shoes at all. It’s nuts! Lack of empathy is a huge indicator.

            Listen to the words your co-workers use, watch their body language and just observe; say nothing. The bullying, the contempt, the future fakes and the back stabbing all become so obvious.

            Narcissists are ubiquitous and it’s ok to be upset. You feel duped and it’s frustrating. Keep reading and then: Boom! It all clicks and you become your own personal narc detector and the upset simply dissipates.

          18. Thanks K! I have had several dating related obvious narcissists from early winter that I’m appalled by now. I wasn’t even trying to date—they were just randomly landing at my feet and thankfully I didn’t get smacked literally—I made it out first! I am exceedingly aware neither one would be given a second conversation now so I know there is marked improvement.
            The problem with work—I saw no signs of poor behavior with a small group for four years. I was treated fabulously and saw nothing. (Why would I have known what others were experiencing in the midst of my own life drama?!) Until my separation I was so shut down I was fairly quiet and did nothing social. **All I could do for a few years was go to work, perform with sheer mediocrity at best and return home on the couch to drink. Yet, I was treated well—exceedingly well. Come to find out there is a plethora of passive aggressive bullshit, bullying, snide comments, interpersonal battles, assembly of teams.. Why does it impact me? For one, it hurts people I care about. Then I’m baffled that I missed it and got closer to several
            of these snakes than I ever again wish to permit. Even a narcissist is sick of the discord—she’s rather benign at work but that’s a different story! Frankly I’m off anyway but I have to return. Yes, I can learn from this absolutely but I just don’t want this crap or to have to strategize to manage other people’s bullshit. I’m
            weary.
            When I first read HG’s work I pretty
            much skimmed the comments (except his) on the blog because I assumed everyone was (as I was/am)—dumb/idiotic, etc. Why else would we be here? It was surely a “special school” HG was running! How funny as several months have progressed and I’m getting somewhat up to speed. I shall continue to chew cud.

          19. Claire
            Ha ha ha…I don’t think it was random. They instinctively knew that you would fulfill the Prime Aims and targeted you. You are a Narc Magnet, you will always attract them and you have to be vigilant.

            You would be surprised at how long you can be in the first sphere of influence and not realize you are dealing with narcissists. You may be part of the facade: you are painted white, in seduction, fury is capped, you are not stale so you are not being devalued. There were quite a few narcissist in PTO with me and you would never, ever know it. The facade is the ultimate manipulation-I think-because it works so well. If you haven’t already, read: Why Can’t They See It Too? The Narcissist’s Façade At Work. Think: Gus Fring and Walter White from Breaking Bad. Gaslighting central!

            These snakes draw you into their world (seduction hoover) while causing chaos and creating a toxic environment for others with malign hoovers. It is very compartmentalized. You shouldn’t have to strategize at work, put up with crap or manage other people’s BS, that will suck all the energy right out of you, and the dynamic applies to narcissists as well; N v N.

            Do not engage and do your best to avoid the toxic people. I wish work environments were aware of NPD and would take the proper steps to protect employees. I am a firm believer in once you know, you go, however, I understand that you may not be able to leave your job. If you need to stay, and it is bad, consider the HOW TO HANDLE THE NARCISSIST AT WORK consult.

            Ha ha ha….you are not dumb or idiotic; you are an empath. And you are “special” because empaths are rare! I love the comments because they help with perspective and you get to see the dynamic at work in first person. Enjoy the cud!

          20. Haha—the cud! I’m actually not having an issue at work, yet I was so curious about the chaos I did do the narc at work thing. I had a geek interest as well because my specialty certification is administrative and I’ve done some HR consultant stuff. What “captured” me though.. What really got me at work—is that I could have had a problem easily. Others are getting railroaded. Our boss is passive and is not equipped to manage this. I did have an instance (and mentioned it here) where some items were tossed around during a cardiac arrest toward me. (aggressive passive aggressive) but she was called out by another person who had me painted white and I got an apology which was a huge blame shift. Anyway, I won’t do it at work. I am well connected in HR and I (as ineffective at discipline as I’ve been at times because I always felt bad for the drinkers etc.) would never have kept these shenanigans ongoing in my past work life. The problem is that these women have little repercussion and their behavior is ongoing and shape shifting. I told my boss there was substantial pathology and good luck and by the way—I am not doing it when I come back.. Several friends of mine are just miserable. It’s ridiculous.
            I’ll look at the articles and I loved Breaking Bad:)
            And the one guy was way hot—but dumb as a stump. I never could have done it based it that alone but it was tempting!

          21. Claire
            Good, accurate information is power and you need it. It sounds like the boss is useless and it looks like there is N v N behavior going on. Work places that involve several narcissists can be very toxic and it can start to become very tit for tat. Is there any way you can work with HR and school them? I feel bad for you and those who are being railroaded. I think people should speak up but it can be very risky.

            Pinkman? He wasn’t very bright.

          22. Pinkman—a lesser.. My boss is a nice guy and his passive qualities benefit me—I get every vacation I want. I’m out quite a bit upcoming and all of it was approved. The behavior though—ridiculous. They are all mid range females. It’s almost predictable (and amusing in how predictable they are) to watch them scamper around and instinctively trouble shoot mitigating their own creation. (The creation is the mess..)
            I especially love the victim, “I may lose my job bullshit..” They are all horrible bitches and I apologize endlessly to HG for once asserting more men were narcs. Lord no. I’d have them on a final written with employee assist mandatory behavior program. Of course it doesn’t fix narcissism but it makes a statement and pushes them out with less liability because it creates the persona of working with behaviors they could attribute to stress, etc. They disgust me—I am aware of things that occurred and was reached out to so my visceral disgust is warranted.

          23. Claire
            I think he may have been. The females outnumber the males in my world and, sometimes, they create chaos, then dramatically fix it and claim heroine status with The Expectation of Recognition for their valiant efforts to fix what they fucked up in the first place. It’s The Perfect Storm for the purposes of generating fuel.

            Some narcissists can behave but many just show their true colors after a while. If they can’t behave then I say: Bye Felicia!

          24. K—you are really upswinging HG these days! I’d never think of how they gather more fuel in the “dramatic fix!” It bothers them very little correct? It’s an instinctive ball game?

          25. Claire
            Ha ha ha…I learned from the best. They are instinctively efficient at fuel gathering, nothing goes to waste. Either way, they get fuel coming or going. They are not bothered in the least. Zero remorse. They would not be able to adequately defend themselves if they had a conscience, however, they do not know this, they think they are normal and everyone else is fucked up or to blame for their woes.

          26. K—I adore you. You are really on target. HG has a corner on human behavior like no one ever has. Do you know this HG? Of course you will say yes but do you really? They are nimble little creatures.

          27. It’s really crazy HG. The whole thing—the deciphering capacity of behaviors. I feel like if you simply didn’t know something you would just say—instead of feeling authoritative and bullshitting us. Some people just ramble and make connections that sound kinda smart because they have a platform—I don’t see that here. Not at all. (I see it at work. Nurses/doctors rambling about what they think they know and it’s not their specialty..) Actually nurses are worse—some don’t realize how rudimentary their education is compared to the physicians and they just sound stupid. Anyway—that is just an example. I really am not a narcissist at all—I could never ever defend the behavior K mentioned. I would be mortified beyond comprehension.

          28. Claire
            Ha ha ha…and that is what makes you an empath! You have the empathic traits of decency and honesty.

            Arrogance, facade maintenance, control and superiority all need to be maintained hence the mumbling and pretense.

          29. I am honest—I hate lying and suck at it horribly and then think about it for hours at times! Even a false reason for being late is a huge moral quandary. F*#%. Decency depends on the day—I made fun of my ex’s friends on here today. If they weren’t so ridiculous I would not have the thoughts. The images are forever amusing in my mind. I can’t believe the depths fuel acquisition allows. I can’t sleep with ugly men. Even for a ton of money.

          30. Claire
            Ha ha ha…you would be an utter failure as a narcissist. Ha ha ha…a huge moral quandary, you crack me up! Your honesty and guilt would get in the way, just stick with being an empath.

            When you get angry, you may experience empathy erosion and then decency goes right out the window. That is ok, vent your spleen and I thought your comments were funny!

          31. K—Alright.. This is so bad.. Heck yes it’s funny. Look closely at my gravatar on here. The person is unidentifiable and of course I would never post a face. This is to see if you were reading my insults and make the connection.

          32. Claire
            Ha ha ha….what are you? A wannabe somatic narcissist? Good luck with that, your empathic traits will only diminish temporarily but they will always come back. I enjoyed the insults; they made me laugh!

          33. It’s not my fault people such as the photographed are idiots and funny. 🤷🏼‍♀️
            Yes, somatic narcissism could be a goal—my two closest friends are way somatic. I did just leave the gym!

          34. Claire, I had the impression that our dad’s had a bit of overlap too, so I’m not surprised you say that.
            My dad’s fun sides were pretty fun, but I don’t miss him or think of him fondly exactly though. The negatives outweighed the positives enough that I don’t wish to be in contact. He was a terrible role-model and a spotty parent at best and I don’t really want my kids to be a fuel source, it’s damaging. He is sexist and I think his relationship with a boy would be even worse. My first adult relationship was with a physically and emotionally abusive lesser and he mostly stood by and told me to do better in that relationship because it was my responsibility (projection much?). I’m sure he would ask my husband to borrow money but he can’t, my husband can be an extremely emotionally indifferent person (he’s gotten effectively better with time, lately he’s all dad jokes and business trips but used to not care if I cried for an hour, no response whatsoever). He also had me spend a significant portion of my childhood in close proximity with his narc older brother who went to prison for sex crimes, both before and after conviction. My dad was the sort of narc to have a hodge podge of dystopian friends and associates and he was a bit of a grifter and really could rationalize anything, convincing himself.

            Like your situation, he did always tell me I was smart and beautiful, and if I could fit into things or help him he would heavily persuade, he was always convincing, strongly influencing. He would monopolize my attention and it doesn’t escape my understanding that part of the reason our “falling out” effected the apparent (convenient?) end of our relationship is that he became significantly lower on the pecking order of importance in my decision making. For example, no he was not allowed to drive myself and my toddler son across several states in a van while my child played with toys and crawled around unharnessed in the rear.
            He has four brothers, no sisters. He is second oldest and the two oldest bore the brunt of their father’s narcissism and are narcs, the three youngest are not. I believe his mother was solidly empath. I know what you mean though, I don’t hate him exactly, I do hate my mother. If he had given me as much I’d probably feel very similar to you and I think he would have if he’d been more organized.
            I actually believe my mother is the only narc out of eight siblings (and my sister is), but she has a couple siblings that appear to be schizoid. Her mother was schizophrenic to the point of not being a present human at all and her father was unintelligent and self-absorbed at best.
            Did your father pass away? I don’t remember seeing you talk about it. Thanks for letting me detail and vent a few things : )

          35. He passed away nearly nine years ago. He felt poorly over the 4th of July holiday and it ended up that he actually had a coronary infarction during the few days he felt bad. He was admitted to the hospital and developed ARDS. I had him sent from an inferior “critical care” environment (small town—no in-house 24 hour pulmonologist) to a more appropriate hospital. He was not going to recover and we quickly withdrew care. Whew—upsetting memory. Ironically just before he was intubated/unable to speak he insisted we take care of our mother. It’s hard/baffling to understand the years of devaluation and then a “death bed” declaration that appeared altruistic. He wanted someone to keep his appliance shiny basically, although he didn’t know what compelled him to say it/think it. He was a brilliant achiever in many ways—actually lived extremely frugal but set my mom up well financially and his “disorder” (as I’ve explained) in no way impacts how I feel. I’ve just had the epiphany of understanding. When life is less exasperating I will likely explore more. To be honest, if he were alive he would likely be nailing my husband’s balls to the wall. Funny how narcissists protect their objects. That is why it’s so endlessly baffling when people try to unravel behaviors. HG provides a great education. Best there ever has been and ever will be—appreciate you HG. Thank you endlessly.

          36. Thank you so much K, it made me tear up to read your analysis. It is the cold, hard truth. And I do know that any money, inclusion and compliments, which as a younger me I craved intensely at times, were only to secure fuel, that is true, benign hoovers, etc.. It all feels so hollow to me now and I don’t see him as a person, hence why I no longer miss him. It is so helpful to read here to substantiate my emotional detachment, which took a very long time to achieve. I used to fear him showing up at my house and aiming his disapproval at me, he used to occasionally hammer me with it until I submitted. I honestly think part of his reason to accept the end of our relationship is because he was sensing that I would eventually consider him imperfect, a failure, a human. He was certainly “omnipotent” to himself in many ways a definitely did not know he was a narcissist. It makes me feel bad for him that he doesn’t understand and can’t reconcile it. He is aimlessly seeking something to fill the empty and there is no satisfaction, there is no answer to an unanswerable riddle. It helps me understand why I have sought out narcissists, I would never have seen objectively and with clarity the way that I have repeated relationships with both my parents in other people.

            It is amazing to me because I fled my mother and sister’s home at 15 years old to move across the country and living with my father was a huge relief, I had no choice. He was only present when he wanted to be but at least I wasn’t constantly hounded, criticized, micromanaged and oppressed. But the FIRST friend I made at school when I arrived was this girl who was nice to me and fun. I also met another girl in another class and we got along great. I naively thought wouldn’t it be fantastic if they met each other! I liked both of them, surely they would like each other, great for everyone! Well they did, and within the year they talked about me behind my back constantly and criticized me to my face with opinions they agreed with each other on daily. I eventually became so stressed I ended up in the guidance counselor’s office and she called them in and listened to them explain in front of me why I sucked and how I needed to improve and then finally she cut them off and basically told them they were cruel stupid bitches. She also called my dad in at one point and told him I needed a therapist and he laughed at her and told her I did not and I was fine.

            A LONG TIME AGO, but my point is I think people do that, I think they just fall into “comfortable” roles and keep trying to make them work? It surprises me. But to this day a narcissist man looking at me a particular way can cause my skin to buzz. Not all of them, only ones I find attractive, but I sometimes can’t consciously tell they are narcs, it is my response often that tells me. Platonic relationships are the same, I can physically feel it before I can logically see it, I feel compelled. Not always, some people are super obvious, especially somatics, but certain types of people just click weirdly.

          37. You are welcome nunya biz
            I am sorry that you teared up. It is only natural for a child to want her father’s love, approval and acceptance. We all want to matter but their love is superficial and that is why it feels so hollow and when you add in his disapproval then that really screws with your mind.

            In your case, I think the reason he may have “accepted” (disengaged) the “end” of your relationship (it doesn’t end until one of you dies) is because he instinctively realized that the jig was up (1. You Have Wised Up).

            He most certainly was omnipotent (to himself) in HIS reality. From our POV, it is very sad to see what we think is repetitive and often self-destructive behavior but it is really control and fuel gathering and necessary for them. Narcissists are fuel addicts who never really slake their thirst and there is no answer/cure for them. We can try to understand why they behave the way they do and protect ourselves.

            Unfortunately, we are damaged and we will always attract narcissists; it’s a symbiotic relationship and Cluster Bs also attract other disordered individuals.

            Fleeing the home seems to be common is this dynamic and some parents micromanage and oppress (malign parental hoover) while other NPD parents neglect their offspring, which could be construed as shelving. You are still painted white but your dad was busy with other appliances.

            It looks like triangulation with those “friends”and I disagree with how guidance handled it. She shouldn’t have had them in the office in front of you so they could gang-up and belittle you. She did call them out BUT, if they were narcissists, all she did was fuel them.

            Re: the therapist, of course you were fine (facade maintenance)! How dare she suggest otherwise (he isn’t accountable to her or your mental health). He laughed (assertion of control and belittling all done to draw negative fuel and maintain superiority).

            NPD abuse is what we know and what we are conditioned to accept. There is definitely something that attracts the personalities. We are just drawn to each other. I recognize it now, I am more cautious and I am not as bothered by it as I once was.

          38. Cluster B.. Do you think generally cluster B’s are narcs? HG and I touched on BPD once out of a geek interest I had. I know I’m not that—but I wonder how much of it I do have. I lack boundaries but I’m kinda conservative in person. I hope I don’t have one of these disorders too—I can’t take much more. Lol

          39. Claire
            Ha ha ha…you are fine. Sometimes we push boundaries but it isn’t the same as a narcissist. I have seen psychopath v psychopath and narcissist v psychopath behavior in some documentaries and the news. Plus, lots of N v N in real life and on the local news. There is plenty of field work out there.

          40. Ah, didn’t get the protected thing so much. But I’m glad you did, it is something that is very very important. Thank you for sharing, I’m very sorry for your loss.

          41. I’m sorry Nunya—it is nice to feel protected. I’m sure my brothers never felt it. The concept of loss is insane. I would have to keep my girls away from him—that is not a positive. His inappropriate behaviors were pervasive and so it’s not a negative that he died, more of a relief.

          42. I so agree, Claire, K’s comments help me all the time. I would not have translated “future faking” as she did so quickly. My dad was a real piece of work, I’m sure I could tell a hundred stories.

          43. nunya biz
            My mother future faked me with KFC last year! I am good at recognizing them now and the article: The Fifty Future Fakes has come up for our enjoyment. I think your dad is definitely a lesser (ULN).

          44. I looked at it K. One thing—an example of something I have no comprehension of.. A statement such as “I won’t do it anymore” sort of thing. So, I am nearly certain if I had a complicated issue like addiction to a drug it could be “associated” with stealing etc. I can’t fathom doing such things. Ever. So, people do awful things—then are suddenly rehabilitated as society sees it.. Are these often just narcs who got sick of their fuel being hampered by consequences? The future fakes article got me thinking. Some of these life changing miracles seem questionable to me. I could never do the things addicts do. Ever. Could an empath ever sink to steal and lie/cheat/exploit/manipulate for a stupid drug??

          45. Claire
            All of the drug addicts that I know are narcissists and, remember, it is all about fuel and control. Some will go in and out of recovery, overdose, Emergency Services gets involved, narcan, family interventions, 12-Step programs and pity fuel/residual benefits from social media postings, GoFundMe pages, donations, funerals and tattoos (R.I.P.) from those that OD and die. Not only do the addicts get fuel, the Narcissistic siblings and parents get it too.

            Normals and empaths can become addicts and I wouldn’t put it past them to steal, manipulate, prostitute or lie.

          46. It’s interesting. I heard a guy—successful and sober (so humble of course) say if he relapsed he would be stealing again. I’m like—that’s blame shifting. Or is it? Everyone loves these feel good stories. Prostitution for drugs hurts yourself—robbing people is a different line in the sand.

          47. K

            I know many empaths that are addicts, they use to escape the hell they are in not to add the emotions the feel off of others the disgust, shame and guilt that is just piled upon them. They are so deep they are almost lost because of the way people see them not to add the grip the addiction has on them.

            Before anyone assumes or ask it is because I literally feel them, a Contagion is the strongest Empath because we deal with everyone hell, their pain, their suffering.
            Walk in my shoes…..you won’t last a day and be begging for your own shit to deal with.

          48. Twilight
            I grew up surrounded by alcohol and drug addicts and it is a serious issue with many underlying causes. No one is immune and I don’t judge anyone; I never understood it until I learned about it here (in relation to NPD). Although the opioid crisis is in the news quite frequently, there is still a stigma attached to it. Mental health is substandard in america; it’s very sad.

          49. It would seem impossible that every addict is a narcissist, I even drank a lot when dealing with my ex, etc. It’s the behaviors I question. It’s hard to think of an empath robbing/stabbing someone to get drug money etc. Red flags go high for me hearing depraved stories and then miraculous redemptions. Two years ago—I would believe it was all genuine—miraculous. I feel much more discerning now. Is it paying it forward or it is a venue for fuel? I would say recovery circles are narcissistic playgrounds and the empaths that are present are prey. (Like anywhere—they just see a sponsor figure and can get sucked in as a secondary source..)

          50. Claire, I think the attachment can be intense and it seems like a very big loss. It certainly would have been for me had something like that happened at a different time. I do remember that feeling with my father as well, craving his input, approval, presence, even as an adult. I would call him for advice. I lost that feeling several years ago, it isn’t there anymore. I also felt afraid he would show up randomly until a few years ago, I don’t worry too much anymore, though I do dread it.
            I say that about protecting because it is something I always also craved. Every man I have met it is the thing I want most I think. For him to become angry if I am threatened, but because he knows me and I shouldn’t be threatened. There were times my dad defended me too, so I have had that feeling, but like you said it was to protect an appliance I guess, or a projection.
            The concept of loss is insane, I’ve not always handled it well. I’m glad your girls don’t have that influence, but who knows how you would have handled it, probably well. I was thinking it is funny that my dad and I fell out after I got married and had children, likely because I am more protective of them than myself. But that’s that thing where empaths sometimes think they can “handle” things better, which looks like confidence sometimes, and also that they don’t necessarily deserve better? I was just thinking about that.
            Even though some of your experience was good, it’s obviously had a lasting effect on you.

          51. Oh Gosh yes regarding a lasting effect! I’m pretty impacted. The damage is extensive. Right now though—I’m going to suck down bloody Mary’s!

          52. K, you are such a help to me, I really needed this. Still working through things. It is becoming more clear where the elements of addiction started in my life, having things given and taken away all the time (my mother’s burning cold silent treatments were epic). I would crave the result that gave relief often, it was tormenting.
            I know you are right, that it isn’t “ended”. He may show up, he has always done so when he needed something. I remember being tricked into thinking he wanted to see me several times and then he would ask for something. I would likely help him if it is in my ability, but it would depend on how he approached it and I’d be expecting guilt trips and persuasion that I wronged him with no accountability on his end (“I don’t know what I’ve ever done wrong to you….”).
            I really wish I would have understood all of these things so much sooner it would have changed so many things.

            I felt a new narcissist (pretty sure) focus at me at work last week, although I’ve gotten into a more narc-resistant environment.

            Fleeing the home: I’m lucky I had a place to flee to (another narcissist, but still better). I may have left a different way in another year or two. Yes, “shelving” that makes sense. The business things were about fuel, thank you for clearing that up.

            The two high-school friends and the guidance counselor: Beyond a shadow of a doubt one of them was full-on NPD. It was later determined she was a compulsive liar, completely made up things. The other one was at least highly narcissistic, but I don’t know if she was NPD or not. She certainly enjoyed feeling superior. The guidance counselor was one of the few people who tried to help me but yes, I remain disappointed, she could have done better, but isn’t that the case for most lost children. Everyone fails. I wish I knew better answers myself. That is a great description of my dad’s issues with her- facade maintenance, control, superiority. I thought in terms of facade maintenance he was always worried about therapists figuring out things about him. I don’t think he wanted me talking, even as an adult he seemed nervous about me in therapy.

            I am being very cautious. While I know I attract NPD people I also can be around non-NPD people and I feel myself falling into some of my behavior patterns if their behavior patterns allow for that “symbiotic relationship” but they won’t take advantage because they are not NPD. So that is what I’m seeking out, a way to simultaneously strengthen my NPD resistant behaviors, improve and balance better my own narcissistic behaviors to a more healthy combination, while also allowing my natural empathic behaviors to be expressed safely. Previously I would spend time with NPD people and just have strong boundaries in some areas, but it’s really too much work, depressing, and they will not be deterred.

          53. My pleasure nunya biz
            Keep reading and working through things. The logic will make the dissonance disappear and then you will be in a much better place. You were conditioned to accept that push/pull, give/take, up/down behavior, which is so confusing, it also makes you try harder and it makes it easier for the narcissist to control you.

            It looks like he benign hoovered you for fuel and residual benefits then played the victim card (pity play) to exploit your empathic traits of guilt and decency. He rewrites the past (gas lighting); you are the aggressor and he isn’t accountable for his actions because you made him behave the way he did (blame shift). I wish narcsite existed 30 years ago!

            Narcissists are all over the work place environment! It is ridiculous. Stay far, far away.

            You went from the fire into the frying pan; you had no choice. It was the lesser of two evils. You were a child and you did the best you could do with what you had. Your dad comes across as an upper lesser narcissist/lower mid-range and his wheeling and dealing business shenanigans were all about the Prime Aims. And you were there to support HIS reality.

            The guidance counselor tried to help but she didn’t know what she was dealing with. That is still a huge issue in schools today. Shame on the APA. Your dad was challenged when he was called to the school and told you needed a therapist. This attack caused him to use the Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defense. He wouldn’t want you in therapy because that would be seen as erosion of control and he can’t have that hence the nervousness. And, what do those quacks know anyway (his mindset)?

            You should be fine around non-narcissists because normals and empaths aren’t likely to exploit the relationship. At least, that has been my experience. You have to balance your LT and ET. I think it may get tedious to be around NPD individuals for a long time. They really are persistent. So NC is prudent. GOSO.

          54. Interesting Nunya—the whole thing about things given and taken away. It’s something how you bring up the “pretty sure” narcissist at work thing. I went out last night with work friends. Someone’s boyfriend gave me a hint of the narcissist look—then the unmistakable hand on my lower back as if to “help” me walking in the grass down a hill. I’m so sick of these people. Your second paragraph is exactly where I am.

          55. Wow K, Claire and NunyaBiz, I have been following this conversation and I am so grateful for everything that I have read here. Not grateful for the experiences you all had behind these stories but for sharing them and learning more about both of you (Claire and NB) and K applying the narcsite knowledge to them thus making them educational illustrations as well. I love reading K’s analyses here all the time. I have seen her write them before and when I have a chance to see them it always amazes me how much insight she has. I loved the analysis she gave about my mom’s TB fiasco (the saga continues) and I was laughing while reading it because she even delivered the analysis in a humorous way. I don’t remember if I thanked you for that K but if I haven’t I want to say thank you 🙏 because it was very cathartic and comforting to be understood. I think that when you explained that you are a ‘narc whisperer’ and explained your attitude about it, it made complete sense to me why you are so good at this. It is because your understanding or drive to understand them is not coming from hate or anger and therefore ET is not there. It is impossible to put yourself in a position of understanding the other person when you have contempt and it goes the same with narcs. When you don’t have ET and you are open minded at understanding the pathology and its pattern that is how you really learn about them. And also your natural sense of humor and communication style really add to it as well.

            I have so many thoughts about NunyaBiz and Claire’s experiences and there were parts that got me upset as well. I am just grateful that we have this place to talk about all of them. I relate to NB’s experience of having narc friends turn on you. It is absolutely painful. And especially the character assassination after the betrayal to blame shift that it is you who has all the wrong or to be blamed for being betrayed and rejected. The bike story was painful as well and I could relate as well but in different situations but pretty much the same color where something you cherished is taken from you and something is given to you in their terms. Claire’s stories about healthcare remind me of my husband’s stories as well. Healthcare is a very stressful environment to work in but it can also be so fulfilling when you have grateful patients or people that you have helped. I can relate to Claire’s feelings of confusion about not hating her dad and K is right that we don’t have to hate them. I have so many thoughts and so much stuff that I learned so I just want to say thank you for the amazing discussion.

          56. Love this post MP. It’s a gem. On a lighter note—I totally walked into an Applebee’s ten minutes before closing last night and prayed (despite no religious engagement) that no narcissist would spit in my food! We were starving. We walked several miles, there was drunkenness, (not me) asthma attack in the wilderness for a friend with no meds, peeing in the woods for the first time since my youth.. I really need to unruffle and act my age today. Nonsense. Praying my body doesn’t break out in poison ivy.

          57. Thank you very much MommyPino!
            And you are welcome! Ha ha ha…I was just thinking about you and your mother’s TB fiasco yesterday. I was wondering how it was going and I am not surprised “The Saga” continues-think of the fuel and control-and you did thank me BTW. Those comments are located on the Assateague thread a.k.a. EverPresence.

            It is very important to be understood and validated, that is what makes this blog so unique, we don’t have to struggle to explain our POV. The people on narcsite just get it. What a relief! We all speak the same language and everything is Found In Translation here. And the humor here is fantastic and it facilitates the healing process tremendously; humor is medicinal.

            My drive to understand comes from my truth seeking trait and you are correct; we should come from a position of neutrality and our ET and POV need to be set aside so we can truly understand the narcissistic perspective. I try to communicate with humor and clarity so people can easily absorb and understand my posts. Hopefully it helps the reader move forward or feel better. Once you recognize the pathology and patterns, it’s easier to let go. It’s a work in progress.

          58. Excellent post—I need up to par on the TB fiasco. Tell her take the Rifampin and to quit babbling:) You know I adore you MP! My dad used to openly discuss his insulin manipulation strategies and it was so ridiculous because it was his way of illustrating carb counts-coverage shenanigans with quick acting insulin etc. No one cares. We knew he was smart. Well done. Madness.

          59. “We don’t have to struggle to explain….”
            Ugh tell me about it, K.

            It is the worst thing, everywhere I have to bite my tongue from explaining, and still… still sometimes I do it.
            And narcissists, God, they flip and flip incessantly, I’m like 2+2=4, therefore my feelings are valid. I mean christ the number and breadth of reworkings of fact, it’s an infinite sided rubix cube of nonsense, all just to flip things in one’s favor.
            Because I will never in my life be as important to protect as one’s favor.
            Changing one simple word in a sentence makes it ring eerily true and yet somehow implies superiority in such desperate, conniving ways. Times that by an infinite number of sentences, each and every one.
            I will never be involved. I can live in more sanity.
            Detach, detach, detach.

          60. nunya biz
            Ha ha ha…In Narc Vegas 2+2=5 or 7 or 3. It is all about the flipping in their world

          61. Damn, K, can’t even get some chicken. Yes, read the 50 future fakes. I agree, I think uln. Reminds me of trump sometimes anyway.

          62. Lol Claire looks like you are having quite the adventure too! The asthma attack sounds scary though. I have asthma too and I know the feeling of running out of inhaler when you have an attack. It really sucks. I don’t remember the last time that I peed in the woods but I will do it in a heartbeat if that is my only resort. I think only Lesser narcs would spit on food. My MRE sister would have thought of something like that as beneath her. But my LLV mom have told me so many times to be careful of food prepares by other people because they might spit on it to make me like them. She has a superstition that if someone eats hair or spit of someone, that is like eating a love potion which will make the victim like the person who spat or put hair in their food. It is gross but I have a good feeling that I have eaten quite a bit of my matrinarc’s hair and spit growing up. Even when I visited her from the US sometimes I see her hair in my food. She has TB now and her behavior is so bad with how she treats everyone. My husband thinks that her days are numbered and she will not recover from this mostly because of her behaviors. I am having mixed feelings. I have the logical thinking going on where I need to treat this in the most pragmatic attitude as possible and at the same time inside are feelings of fear of really permanently losing her. It’s a weird feeling because even though she is totally bad for me and to me, for the first 26 yrs of my life it has been me and her against the world. I also feel bad that she is suffering but I am not letting the feelings affect me.

          63. MP—I started a reply—walked away and think it may have “sent”
            so will check soon to eliminate being redundant!

          64. It was a mess—I’m too old and high maintenance to be swept into the woods to pee on the ground! It was nuts but now I know not to go to the same venue with a young lady with a spirited streak without making the arrangements first! I have modifications in mind for the summer orchestra series:)
            This includes parking and seating! My other friend may not have had the exercise induced asthma attack had she not had to walk several miles for instance. Long story. In fact, I’m not convinced that she is asthmatic entirely. She needs a stress test for starters. She is a practitioner but won’t listen—convinced she has asthma that started last year. Maybe. Maybe not.
            Facebook memories popped up.. My dad walking me down the aisle.. I know what you mean by the weird feeling. It was quite a day to look at that photo. Of course I re-shared and my brother was the first to like it. No one but me knows the truth. He spread such dysfunction in our lives.. Your mom—I could handle that behavior easily! The staff doesn’t care—I promise. It is embarrassing for family at times though. TB is very treatable. Is she dramatizing this for attention? I mean there are variations of problems/presentations but if she is feisty enough to bitch and moan I would say she is using this for her benefit at least to an extent.

          65. Thank you K for thinking about me. You and Claire have been talking about healthcare in this thread and my matrinarc is definitely one of the most horrible patients any healthcare professional could ever come across. She was making loud comments at the hospital about how the doctors treating her are idiots and incompetent and trying to take all of her money and my cousin said that it is really embarrassing. But she said that the doctors just ignore her and just keep treating her. Also when I paid my cousins back for the money that we owed them when she was confined to the hospital she got mad at me because she believes that I should have sent the money to her and that my cousins were just trying make money out of this. I just hang up when the conversation starts to become like that though. I also have thoughts that I wish I am there to take care of all of it because my cousins are not as used to it all as I am and I feel bad for them. But it’s not an option because of my little kids.

            By the way, why is the thread called Assateague thread?

            Also I remember you saying you have seen a young kid or young twins who you think might have NPD or are developing NPD (I don’t know if I remember it correctly). At what age do you think NPD trajectory becomes strong and obvious? I think I have a nine year old that is going to that direction. We are having a vacation with her right now in Mendocino County and my husband is going nuts and stressed out. I just mentally checked out like I did when I was living with my mom so I’m still enjoying my vacation. I guess I can credit my matrinarc for that survival skill lol.

          66. HG said it can potentially be derailed at 8 or 9 with a strong influence. (Correct me HG if I’m wrong) By 10 or 11 it is well underway.. I genuinely believe I halted this in my son—I know I did. He was shut down—he was “breathing” but he was not even comfortable with the animals. I was an emotionally unavailable mom—indeed. Always to him. Why? The most blatant form of survival for me has been present since he was born as the environment was so toxic by then I was scraping the barrel. Much of my empathic nature was superseded by trying to survive. My husband was akin to living with an emotional water boarder—nearly daily. There was no respite by means of dashing charm—it was silent treatment (almost a respite) alternating with insults. I mean no histrionics here—it’s the truth. I was able to buy his clothes, take him to preK, “go through the motions” but I was numb or suffering depending on the day. He was 8 1/2 when dad left. Some instinct kicked in and the only thing I did effectively for months was commit time to what I sensed what a problem—something was amiss. He is now flourishing. He adores the animals, cares for them, finally reciprocated “I love you” (by saying ditto—it’s a start.)
            He is connected, wants and seeks my attention.. Flourishing—absolutely. This is not a pat on the back to me—my narcissist husband was the more attentive caregiver for our son for a long time. I was incapable of much to anyone for years. The difference is that I’m getting better and better and the narcissist slams me to the kids all the time and they don’t like it. My son remains rattled. Don’t get me wrong as the damage is not cleaned up entirely—just last night he almost “froze”’when I told him his dad was better at math than me. He’s actually not smarter—he’s just boring enough a person to sit and attend to tedious details:)
            This is truly an incredible clean up. I’m exhausted much of the time and I have not ruled out taking another month off work. I get paid 100% whether I’m there or not. People think nurses are dumb.. Big medical centers have to pay us not to work for months out of the year, maintain all benefits and pay incentives people are unaware of. Who says only a narcissist can navigate such waters? I truly wouldn’t abuse it—things just feel desperate at home right now due to a number of issues. Some of the damage is done—I’m just not certain at times where the most resources need deployed but I am treading water. I’m much more connected and capable now than a year ago when my husband left. Thank goodness he did—the gift of discard. It’s a blessing. It’s like being let out of jail.
            The Assateague thread represents Fool me discussing a place relatively near her home that she likes to visit. It was from earlier in the year.

          67. My pleasure MommyPino!
            I was hoping that everything was going well with you and your mother. Our mothers are VERY similar. They are horrible, loud and embarrassing no matter where they are. It’s awful! It looks like she was trying to assert control by devaluing the doctors with verbal abuse, contempt and accusations of “trying to take all of her money” (paranoia). She sounds just like my mother. The doctors are smart; ignore her and treat her.

            Paying back your cousins (your trait of decency) was viewed as a loss of control/wounding and your mother’s fury ignited so she needed to punish you for your treachery. She devalued you over the phone and her paranoia became evident again, when you hung-up you asserted control. Good job! And wanting to protect your cousins from your mother’s abuse are your traits of guilt, decency and protection coming to the fore. I don’t blame you one bit. No one knows what it’s really like unless they grew up with a lesser narcissist. My mid-range cousins are afraid of my twin.

            foolme1time mentioned that Assateague Island was her favorite place in the world to be, so I named the thread assateague (island) so I can pull it up without thinking, that’s the same thread where bloggers discussed pets and animals.

            There are 15 NPD children in my daughter’s third grade class (45 students total so 1/3 of the class) and they started to present at age 5 in kindergarten. It looks like it may be fixed in the nine year old. I feel bad for your husband but I am like you; I mentally check out, too. Ha ha ha…good luck on vacation!

            mommypino
            MARCH 15, 2019 AT 23:49
            HG, up to what age in your estimation can a developing narcissism be arrested?

            HG Tudor
            MARCH 18, 2019 AT 09:00
            8 or 9.

            https://narcsite.com/2019/03/12/to-control-is-to-cope-narcissism-and-its-creation/comment-page-1/#comments

          68. NunyaBiz, It’s so funny, before I found HG’s works and learned about narcissism, during the presidential elections before they chose Trump to be the Republican candidate, there was a debate where all of the Republican presidential candidates hanged up on Trump and Trump turned completely red out of anger (or fury) and at the end of the debate Bill O’Reilly (another Upper MR I think) asked him a question and Trump just weirdly told O’Reilly to see a doctor for his mental health because he didn’t like the question and Melania standing by Trump trying to hide the embarrassment and trying to have the most neutral face that she can make as if she didn’t notice anything weird going on, made me remember my matrinarc. Although she is a Lower Lesser, the fury where the whole face turns red and cannot stop from lashing out on somebody reminded me of her. Weirdly also, it gave me a soft spot for Trump. So this whole revelation by HG that Trump is a Lesser and everything that HG wrote about narcissism just totally unraveled the mysteries of my life. Such a freeing experience that I will always thank Hg for for the rest of my life.

          69. I feel bad for Melania. Trump is embarrassing. He’s funny—like a cartoon.

          70. I don’t feel bad for Melania. It’s not like he’s covert lol. Helen Keller could see that red flag waving and she still signed on. I think she volunteered to achieve goals of her own.

          71. You crack me up—he is not covert! He is a moron despite his narcissism.. She likes designer clothes for sure.. I actually think my skin is aging better despite her million dollar creams. Haha

          72. NA and Claire, no expensive cream can reverse cumulative years of sun damage from baking in the sun or tanning beds. But regarding her and Trump, I am of the opinion that it isn’t just Trump’s money that she wants. If it was all and she really can’t stand him, she would have already left him and still be able to afford a luxurious life because I remember that their prenup gives her a substantial amount of money although not half of his fortune. I believe that she honestly has feelings for him and the Golden Period is still etched permanently on her mind. He took her to her to the fanciest restaurant in her home country and invited her parents to ask her dad for her hand. You have to hand it to him that it would make any woman feel like a Cinderella. Also I believe that in spite of his too many warts, she looks up to him as a very successful businessman, a very big fish who chose her out of all of the women that he could have bought. I also think that her father is a narc so she probably doesn’t even think that Trump is all that bad.

          73. I hate laying in sand on a hot beach too. Ugh it’s like a litter box. I can handle the scenery absolutely and a walk but sitting on a chair in a litter box is hot, sweaty, a waste of time and sucks!

          74. I hate tanning and I hate litter boxes. I bought a bathing suit for my Phuket trip but I’m not laying around in it on a stupid pool chair like HG does!

          75. I agree HG. It appears you tolerate the rays anyway—I just burn and feel sweaty and gross.

          76. Lorelei
            I imagine HG likes to soak up the sun whenever he has the chance, simply because it’s usually raining and overcast where he lives. 😊, I am not actually a big fan of just laying on the beach either, I prefer being in the water, fishing, crabbing, or water skiing. But I will put my beach chair near the waters edge to watch the waves roll in and wash over my feet. Oh hell who am I trying to kid? I can be on that beach day and night and not leave it! Lol

          77. Hg likes to gain sunshine because he is usually immersed in darkness a lot of the time.

          78. HG is “immersed in darkness a lot of the time“. That makes me feel sad. The sunshine is a much better place to be!

          79. HG, I’m glad you enjoy the sunshine and rain and find it interesting that you have this in common with empaths. From your IG photos, it seems you have an appreciation for nearly all of nature’s beauty. (Not saying you get the same experience from nature we do such as peace, joy, and renewal of spirit, but an appreciation of your own nonetheless!) Would you say this accurate?

          80. I understand how to appreciate it because I have learned how to do so. I apply intellect rather than feeling.

          81. Thank you for sharing that insight, HG. I so wish you could feel nature as well as intellectually appreciate it. I understand your defense precludes allowing feelings to penetrate the walls, but I think they are there, just buried very deeply and highly protected. I understand, but wish more for you. With your excellent mind, at least you understand nature intellectually exceptionally well and I appreciate your descriptions and how you capture nature in your photos.

          82. I am to receive fishing help on my travels this week from my brother who is not a narcissist! If I catch something I have to dismember it, etc and fry it. It’s a very primitive situation for me to undertake.

          83. Hahaha! You will be fine! I took my daughter on a camping trip a few years ago just to make sure she could do everything on her own! We were the only women at that time fishing and the only ones with bacterial wipes! She laughed until one of the men fishing near us ask me for one! Hahaha

          84. FM1T, I love eating all things crab, but I don’t think I’d like to go crabbing. Once I looked into those cute little stalk eyes, I’d lose my appetite for them. But like you, I LOVE the beach. All day errrday!

          85. MB
            Cute eyes are something you and I disagree with, to me they always seem to be looking at me to figure out how to pinch me! Kind of similar to this big brother I’ve obtained since following the blog! 🤣🤣🙃🦀

          86. FM1T, how do you know HG is older than you? He might be your little brother! Just sayin.

            I’ll give you some cute stalk eyes in my gravatar. I wish you could zoom in, his or her eyes are blue!

          87. Lots of sponge-reading through the blog, HG Exegesis says:

            Did you say Gen X? (means 1965 – 1980)
            I don’t see Instagram but Twitter Sky-diving photo means probably not 50 yet.
            Depeche Mode all over the place – thinking 43 – 50 yrs.
            In Relationship Bulletin there is a line about “one of my earlier girlfriends” and _Facebook_ – Hm, you can’t be old. Maybe 40?
            Another article is on beautifully handwritten letters in high-school, “email was invented but certainly not used in homes yet” – This could mean 1992.

            You’re 40 – 45 🙂

          88. Now MB, I should not have to tell you this, even if he were older, I would never admit to it!! 🤣🤣🤣🙃😘

          89. Oh I’ll have to look closer at his eyes when I get home. 🙃

          90. FM1T, I saved scores of these at St Pete beach a couple of summers ago. They got washed in by the tide and stranded 😢 It was too late for some, but I saved as many as I could. I loved it. They are conch. They make conch fritters out of them. I can’t eat those now.

          91. FM1T, apparently it’s a thing for people to go gather them up when they wash up like that. But it’s very illegal. Thank goodness I didn’t see anybody doing that. You are allowed to take the shells, but only if they are empty.

            None of this has to do with narcissism. Thank you for putting our comments through, HG. You have great patience for allowing us to be friends!

          92. MB and FM1T
            I sense you are about 1 comment away from becoming conch stew lol.

          93. NA, that’s why I thanked The Boss for his patience and ended it. I was afraid I was pushing it already. Slide over. Make room on the naughty stool!

          94. Ima come see those horses and eat some she crab soup. Let me know when is the best time to visit.

          95. You’re not the only one that wants to come to Assateague MB. I can see it now, Tudor merchandise all over the beach, towels, blankets, cup, tee shirts! We could definitely find each other! They’d have to rename it Tudor Island! 🤣🤣

          96. MB, I love that you saved the little crabs, I would have too. I also would like to know the best time of year to visit the ponies on Assateague Island. FM1T?

            NA, lol, point taken. So to keep this on topic, I would like to visit the island for a solo empathetic retreat.

            HG, thank you for your patience. I will observe your rules so no worries. But, if I happen upon a group of people wearing your swag and a conversation ensures, that would be purely accidental of course. 😜

          97. FYC
            Anytime of year is a good time to visit the ponies, it just depends on what you like to do. Of course if it’s the beach and swimming summer is best, but honestly there is something to do all times of the year. Of course rules do apply, but seeing people in a group wearing the newest in Tudor merchandise and you being the polite kind empath that you are, could not ignore them. That would be rude. 🤗🙃

          98. Thank you, FM1T. Perhaps after the tourist go home would be ideal. And yes, it would be hard not to compliment HG swag and very likely the swag wearing empath would reply and engage in conversation…only natural 😉

          99. Empath not empathetic–autocorrect strikes again. Wonder why it does not alter my real typos? 😉

          100. Lol, HG you are the best! Now, I just need to figure out how to GOSO from autocorrect!

          101. MP
            “a very big fish who chose her out of all of the women that he could have bought.”

            That says it all.

          102. MP, Claire, K, I am so excited to read all of your posts, but I am having an amazingly busy few days! I have a long physical day at work after not having slept, I will catch up with you! Also did not sleep because of a swim team fiasco I have to sort out.
            XO

          103. Enjoy—I’m busy too—cleaning my garage and basement but on a break!

          104. I cleaned for like 10-11 hours today. It was horrendous. My ex left a freaking mess in the basement and garage. Ridiculous—he was basically a hoarder in the back of the basement. Nonsense. Then I took the kids and their friends to the grocery and there was a display of Father’s Day stuff. I took a deep breath and asked if they’d like to get things to drop off. Why? I’m creating a legacy for my children. I understand limiting contact but they will remember these gestures and how he slams me constantly. We took the items to leave and his white trash associates were parked in the driveway. (His girlfriends hill jack convicted arsonist, check forgery confederate flag adorned inbred looking brother..) Took a lot of deep breaths. I swear narcissists are just dumb desperate cockroaches. I’m not even exaggerating. This brother was straddled over two trucks in a confederate flag shirt on Facebook once when I saw him. (One leg on each hood)
            It’s embarrassing. My ex used to make fun of these people and wouldn’t even go in Walmart. He is Walmart now. Desperate and dumb. My kids are exposed to this crap. Don’t even let me ramble about the girlfriend’s vertical lip lines—I can only imagine why they are so prominent.

          105. Claire
            Because she smokes, right?

            I’m old but you can’t fool me. Ba hahaha

          106. Oh my! She just has a dick in her mouth all the time. I swear if HG would let us post photos.. It’s ridiculous. I doubt she smokes—I would not think he’d handle that well. He hated when I’d smoke skinny menthols with alcohol.

          107. I completely relate to your last post about detecting Narcs, Claire. I get overwhelmed and frustrated frequently. I have hidden from people a lot. The thing is that I think if a person is a Normal or just a Narcissistic Normal they don’t care as much, are less effected, and don’t need to know as much? Because the stuff rolls off better and they are less latched onto and they are less jolted. That is my impression. I become fairly shaken by just narcissistic actions or responses by Narcissistic Normals. It makes me feel “sensitive” BUT I think it’s because of my terrible history with it and because even if I don’t respond outwardly I have an energy shift to it that effects me and the other person differently, so I have to have strong boundaries with people and maintain LT or I suffer.

            I do also make acquaintances very easily and the mechanism by which I do it is to be encouraging and have a door open for certain types of communication and it drawn trust from empaths and also narcissistic type stuff. I mention because for example yesterday, I settled down a very strong empath at work and she kept expressing appreciation over and over again, and we worked so well together, a huge benefit to her she was grateful. A coworker commented how I had built the woman’s trust in that context and was impressed. Then afterwards in trying to support someone else who has some more narcissistic traits and the person latched on to the supportive comment I offered and turned it around on me in “humor” but it made me uncomfortable and I noticed they did not respond as I had previously with lessening my discomfort, they took the position. I have to keep reminding myself to be cautious with how I support, I do things that remove burden from others without thinking.

          108. Nunya—I had more time for a thoughtful response. I’m running in circles today. Your first paragraph I could have written. HG—do we get better by leaps and bounds or are we stuck at a certain point? It feels like a terminal situation to an extent!

          109. The progress people make varies, but by following my work and direction you will ultimately succeed.

          110. Thanks HG. This is a hard pill to swallow. It is not a simple “bad relationship” one time and “shake it off.” I hoped it was that simple at first and it actually is much more.

          111. I may have replied to this a minute ago? I just woke up who knows.. HG—I am not intellectually dim by standard means of measurement in society. That is why this is frustrating as hell. I know the correlation isn’t exact as you’ve explained but it sucks to be so “impaired” in judgment/interactions, etc. Fix this!

          112. Was thinking about your reply. I just beat myself up too much. I don’t give myself enough of a break for the progress gained. Christ I was way more messed up in the fall. None of this is a cakewalk when so entrenched with these types. Of course it is going to take time. I didn’t learn how to manage (and recognize which is key) nearly any medical emergency in my job in 6 months HG. For instance, when lisinopril induced angioedema comes in I’m racing to an airway cart and know that while it may not go south it can and the person walking and talking can be dead in an hour. It takes a lot of experience/work/trial and error. It’s just so much. That hit me this evening—even my work stuff is an opportunity for growth. My two crazy (sorta recent) narcissist dating scenarios in the past were further opportunities. I’ve got my ex’s calling card down pat. I was a disaster before.

          113. Claire
            You should ease up on yourself. You’re aware and moving forward. It’s not a race or competition.

          114. Just saw this NA. I just want peace and I’m not there.. Sometimes it’s a step forward and two back..

          115. Claire it is like that for all of us, there is no quick fix, please stop beating yourself up and look at all you have accomplished in such a very short time of being here. You are doing an amazing job! 😘🙃

          116. And I have the same issue….like you say, sometimes five minutes around a narc is absolutely unbearable to me, that’s why I explained to you about the personal trainer I had in the past. It seems like “oh a narc here or there isn’t bad for me” (self-sacrifice), but I want NONE and it absolutely was miserable. It drains my energy hard and I now track it. I avoid or else “manage consciously” where I can now because I noticed the toll it was taking, just little bites at random times throughout the day add up to decreased life satisfaction and I CANNOT DO IT. On the other hand I am also surprised the way people pop out as harmful suddenly after greater amounts of time. Oh well, I do my best and I can always do some quick management in the latter situation, I owe no one anything.
            That conversation on the other page I just read through with that blog commenter talking in damn circles AFTER I made my rubix cube comment reminded me that my little rant is correct, and I felt I was maybe being dramatic. I am very well aware when someone is talking in fucking circles and it happened to me again yesterday in real life, some asshole full of shit *blah blah blah* “technically none of this is my fault and technically you have to put up with my shit and technically green is purple and technically I’m the boss of everyone”.
            (regarding my kid, btw)
            Whatever.

            I could not reply closer to your comment asking K about narc detecting, and I need to catch up on all these comments today, it’s such a great conversation! I hope this makes sense in context.

          117. I only had time to play this morning because I was in a salon chair for my hair. I had to be assertive about my hair (irrelevant story) and now I feel bad but it’s all good in hair world. I’ll make the correction my little picture. I’m happy now. Going canoeing in a bit! Agree 100% with all that you say. I’m so over these assholes. My trainer is not a narc at all though. He’s an awesome kid.

          118. Hi Claire and K, I’m sorry for my delayed response. We just got back from our trip last night and I was trying to catch up today with unpacking, laundry, shopping for groceries and helping our nine yr old visitor make her slimes.

            Thank you for answering about the Assateague. I do remember Foolme and WhoCares talk about it but I wasn’t able to read the entire thread. It sounded like an absolutely beautiful place from the way Foolme described it and also to have so many feral horses sounds like it is a very unique and almost mystical place.

            Thank you for answering about the nine yr old. I was hoping that it can still be arrested. My husband and I have been having talks with her about her behavior lately. During our vacation my husband got so angry with her so many times and at times he got really mean and I was worried that he was going to make her cry with how harsh he was (as I would have already cried if it was me when I was 9) but she was just laughing at him and her eyebrows are so expressive like she thinks that he is acting crazy. He told her that she’s not pretty when she laughs while he is frustrated and she said that she laughs instead of crying. I decided to choose the times that I respond to her, if her voice is too low I ignore and pretend that I didn’t hear her and wait for her to try to make her voice louder before I respond to her. When she asks dumb questions I just ignore her or disinterestingly say I don’t know. When she’s answering my question in a very slow and not straightforward way, I look away and continue what I am doing as she answers me instead of staring at her face as she takes forever to answer me because I noticed that she seems to milk this to make me watch her as she takes her time to answer my simple and straightforward questions. I started doing these last Wednesday before we went on a trip and that night she have gotten much weirder. I wonder if my behavior caused her fuel crisis. She would not leave me alone as I was cleaning the kitchen. It was way past her bedtime and I kept asking her to go to bed but she just kept telling me weird stuff like the liquid soap in the bathroom made a sign in the sink in a form of a snake and a tally and she’s creeped out because her mosquito bites also formed a snake and a tally sign. For the first time she asked to call her mom (which prior to that she had no interest in calling her mom) and after she talked to her mom I asked her if her mom told her that it’s past her bedtime. She told me no her mom didn’t say anything about her bedtime but her mom asked me to send more pictures of her and for me to have her call her mom tomorrow morning before we leave. So she deflected. My husband got down and saw that she is still up at 11 and he shooed her to her bedroom like a dog and closed her room. He smiled at me proudly and said, “Did you see what I did?” Then she came back down and said that her inflatable bed is deflated and so he had to inflate it. He was angry because he believes that she purposely deflated it. She came back out saying something again but he didn’t let her finish and shooed her back to her room and said that if she comes out of her room again he will cancel our trip.

            During the trip I just looked at her positives and only focused on those. Her parents do not ever take her anywhere and she is very excited to see stuff so I took her to the tide pools and showed her the crabs and we touched the anemones. I helped her climb up some rocks which she didn’t think that she could and also climb down where she was arguing with me that it was too steep but after we got down she couldn’t stop saying about how fun it was.

            My husband had serious talks with her. He said that she needs to stop asking the most stupid questions. He asked her why she does that and she said that she doesn’t know. He said that you seem to be doing it for attention and he said that it’s not the kind of attention that she should be aiming for. She has been seeing a doctor for her anxiety disorder which my husband thinks she doesn’t really have. She takes Trazodone to sleep and my husband thinks that she’s doesn’t need it. Her parents make her sleep at 7pm and he thinks it’s too early for her that’s why she’s not sleepy yet. And also the fact that they don’t have activities for her so she doesn’t get tired. He asked her about her anxiety and she said that she has anxiety at their house but not here. When he asked her what gives her anxiety at her house she said that she’s scared that when she wakes up get parents will not be there. He asked if it has happened before and she said yes but she changed her answer when she saw our reactions. When he asked her if her mom hugs her she was defensive and said of course. He asked when was the last time and she had a hard time answering and said last month. He said if your mom hasn’t hugged you since last month there is a serious issue. She said that she also has a bully in school and her teacher gave her anxiety because her teacher got so mad at her because she asked her teacher,”What did you say?” too many times. We told her that anybody would get annoyed with that. Her ears were checked in school and her hearing is perfectly normal. So we told her to think first before asking a question if the question is necessary or if the answer is too obvious and to listen and avoid asking people to repeat themselves. She was still manipulative to me today when I told her that I will let her make slimes. She started naming all kinds of slimes that she will make and I told her that she can only make 3 slimes. She said she thinks her uncle would want a slime and she remembers he said it was cool and I just repeated myself ‘only 3 slimes’. She said so that would be one for your son, your daughter and for me. I said, “yes, 3 slimes.”

            I asked my husband to talk to his sister about her granddaughter. At first he didn’t want to because he said how would you feel if you were in the receiving end where someone would call you and tell you not very good observations about your grandkid? I asked him if she and her life is not worth taking the risk. He said that we can’t save everybody. But today he told me that he called his sister and he told her that she has a lot to say about her granddaughter and he will respect it if she doesn’t want to hear it but if she is willing to listen he will be honest about it. She said that she will listen. He said that he will talk to her after her granddaughter goes back home.

            I honestly don’t know if we will make any difference. The thing that gives me hope is that she loves to hug my two year old. And also, she’s not mean, she’s just hungry for attention. It is sad also that even though my husband has been so harsh to her and got so mad at her so many times, she still tells us that she doesn’t want to go home. She’s supposed to leave this Thursday and she’s begging to extend it for two more weeks at least but she said she wants to live with us for ten years. It makes us wonder how bad is it at her parents’ house?

            I’m sorry for the long novel.

            Claire, thank you for your honest post. I absolutely admire you to be able to bounce back after being so abused by your husband. I’m so thankful that we have all found guidance from HG and with that you are able to save your son before it is too late. I really hope that HG’s works will spread even more. The way that he simplified it to the ‘lack of control’ can definitely save a lot of children from developing NPD if more people will apply it.

          119. The bouncing is still in progress:)
            Be back this eve—I did read about the child. My only experience is that my son had no real weird/bad behaviors—it was more of an emotional vacancy?? Like he was on the cusp of staying shut down or not. It was the environment. Stifling and coarse.

          120. By the way—you can’t even imagine the amount of glue I bought a year or two ago to support slime making!

          121. K, thank you for your analysis. Once again you are spot on!!

            Regarding NPD in your daughter’s third grade class, I am shocked that it is 1/3. But then again I ask myself that if I hadn’t read HG’s work, surely I wouldn’t recognize all of the red flags in our nine yr old great niece and I would have just thought that she is just immature. The thing that sets her apart from just being immature is the ‘pattern of behavior’ and what really helped me distinguish them is that at the core of those behaviors is the hunger for fuel and asserting control. I pray that there will be more awareness for HG’s works. I really believe that it can save a lot of kids from developing NPD if people around them are more aware of these information.

          122. My pleasure MommyPino
            There are three third grade classes and there are 5 NPD children per class. I told the school I do not want my daughter in the same class as the violent children so her classroom narcissists are somewhat manageable.

            Children on meds is one of my red flags.

            In my experience, only narcissistic parents have their children on meds and in therapy for anxiety (caused or manufactured by the NPD parent), ADD, ODD, hyperactivity, or manufactured autism. The narcissistic mother loves the fuel she gets from her child’s “issues”, residual benefits if she gets a check from the state and it is also a blame shift which absolves MatriNarc from culpability for her child’s abominable behaviour.

            My normals and empaths do not believe in meds for children nor do their children need therapy because the children do not have anxiety or behavioral issues at all. Their children are, for the most part, normal.

          123. I occasionally get this nutty parent stuff at work, although not often because only 5% of our patients are kids. (A Children’s Hospital is close)
            Funny how many red flags are everywhere.

          124. Claire
            Pay attention to these parents and watch how many red flags start popping up. They are everywhere!

          125. Thank you Claire. I think that might be a difference between him and her. I think that she may be farther into the path than your son was.

          126. He was shut down—didn’t seem connected/didn’t know what he was or wasn’t feeling. No overt pathological behavior stuff for any of the kids—no strange attention seeking stuff. (Thank goodness unless you add a penchant for online shopping in the mix) Even my oldest (she just bought a house/moved out) who hates me because of the environment we lived in has Kate Middleton’s social behavior so I would have concerns absolutely.

          127. K Wow thank you!! What you said about kids on medication makes so much sense. It made five 💡lit up in my brain. That’s why I can’t leave narcsite because there’s always some enlightenment that I get here every time!
            My guess is that her matrinarc is a Lesser. Identify a picture of her to Claire and she agrees that the mom looks like a mess. The grandfather (my husband’s BIL) was a Holy Narcissist. He was very controlling to the matrinarc because he wanted to raise the perfect Mormon woman. One time they visited my husband and my husband invited the matrinarc (who was only 12 at that time) to swim in the pool and she really wanted to but her dad said no she’s not allowed to play on Sundays. My husband and BIL (I think he’s an UMR) hated the holy narcissist because he controlled their sister so much that she wasn’t allowed to leave Utah to visit them in Cali. She never left Utah until he died. Both my husband and BiL invited her and flew her here for a vacation. The matrinarc ended up rebelling and running away when she became an adult. She married this guy who has severe anxiety issues where she basically has total control of. That’s the dad of this kid. She said that her dad rarely talks to her at home but he’s really nice. It’s a big mess. I hope that we are able to give some positive change to this girl. But I am hoping that my husband will talk to his sister and that his sister will take actions. The problem is my husband doesn’t like the word narcissism and he actually is irritated that I go to narcsite. HG’s name is even banned here at our house. But he does recognize that the behaviors are bad and he himself believes that this girl is in Big trouble with the way that she is being raised.

          128. Haha! It’s just the psychopath thing HG.. He’s probably turned off after a quick glance at your site. Normal person sees a weird thing they don’t quite need to understand. The mom “appears” a lesser and if that is a horrible statement I still stand by it.

          129. 😂😂😂 I think he just got so tired of me talking about you and narcissism. There was a point when as soon as I was about to open my mouth to say something to him where I look excited he would say in a very annoyed way, “So what did HG Tudor said now?” while rolling his eyes. So he finally said enough, he doesn’t want to hear anymore about HG Tudor or narcissism. 😜

          130. My pleasure MommyPino!
            Stick around, there’s plenty of enlightenment here and this is where all the cool empaths hang out. Ha ha ha…assert some control and start saying: HG Tudor loudly and proudly at your house.

            It is very clear that the parents are the problem and I feel bad for the nine year old. I am always kind to the children, I only ignore them if they become cheeky and I never chastise them or get angry because I know they can’t help it.

            Trazodone is an antipsychotic, however, it can be prescribed for sleep issues but I think sending a nine year old to bed at 7 pm is silly. Your husband is going to have to use the N-word when he speaks to his sister and it is important that they realize it isn’t the nine year old’s fault. It is a huge conundrum because it sounds like the mother is a narcissist and there will be control issues, challenge fuel and possibly disengagment/falling out. It is really sad.

          131. MP, I’m glad you got to talk about the 9 year old you’d mentioned. K is much better to discuss that with than I! I can say that one of my daughter’s closer friends growing up, age 11, appears to be headed that direction. She has always communicated in a confusing manner and made strange leaps of logic and I had actually had HG do a narc detector on the parent. But recently she started telling other girls not to speak to a specific girl because she liked the same boy as one she had “dated”. This is sixth grade. Dating is age inappropriate to begin with in my opinion, not to mention “dibs” on the humans and scapegoating, etc…

            Claire, I really appreciate your transparency in sharing. I am ASHAMED, deeply ashamed, of some of the parenting mistakes I have made. I could detail them, but I won’t right now. I related to your story.
            I don’t believe either of my kids are NPD and they seem pretty solid, but my oldest, my son, I have the most regrets with. At the moment I’m struggling with how to handle a swim team issue properly, it is a difficult choice.

            At what point do you encourage your child to push through and accept narcissistic behavior just enough so that they can continue to participate and at what point do you call it abuse or a bad influence and pull them? Also it’s possible they would want to leave a situation they should stay in or stay in a situation they should leave. I’ve had to deal with this choice on several occasions, sometimes having them push through and a couple of times removing them. I figure this is key because it is also the type of choice adults frequently need to make. Often there are alternative avenues to fulfill needs so a change can be made.
            It is in my opinion one of the bigger problems a parent faces and not directly discussed.

          132. Nunya—I saw this earlier but have time now. The question is valid. When do you stay/go for your kids?? It’s multi-dimensional and the answer can fluctuate due to circumstances.
            My 12 year old—short story. I’m nearly certain she has been groomed by mostly one narcissist female child/friend. Her behavior became unacceptable almost overnight. Not only is it a go—I have an incredibly draining tango to manipulate to get what she needs as her dad is obstructive. I’m on pins and needles. I’m not even working in order to manage this. I’ve been off for weeks. I have locked her down like an animal. I’m seeing her relinquish the emboldened bullshit—just this week. I got a spot by pulling nothing short of a Sally Field Forrest Gump maneuver in a restrictive private school after most schools enrollment was configured months ago. They knew she could sabotage her interview so I’m still on pins and needles as I’m in the throes of this. It’s exhausting because of the energy required to strategize around her dad, manipulate with intent as it’s not my nature, and clean this up. I’m spent. I took a breath today for some reasons but this has been horrendous. Kids are equipped to get in messes and can’t see 10ft in front of their face to get out.
            If it’s bullying and impacting them I would not hesitate to talk to HG. Each circumstance has similar ingredients/elements but with individual factors. I went as far as to get a no contact legal order on two girls. This is expensive. I’d rather pour too much water on a fire than not enough though.. My daughter is not going down the tubes without a ferocious fight and I’ll breathe easier once she blends well into a more restricted environment. She has the capacity to do it—but this is really hard to tackle. I have even had to get “scary” and it’s not my nature. She’s breaking though—she seems to be. This entire summer is dedicated to this. Her dad’s contribution was to blame shift, triangulate etc. (Thanks HG—I can mitigate his influence with your teaching)

          133. Ack…who knows where this comment will show up.

            Regarding addiction (thank you, Twilight, for your perspective, very interesting).
            I am an alcoholic. The goal is not one sip, not ever again, because the brain chemistry switched at some point, epi-genetics and all, my understanding is it is not reversible, though I’ve heard the odd exception.
            I assume there is a predisposition. I’ve talked about things on here before, due to my upbringing, background, predisposition and what not, I am highly hypnotizable, I have escape mechanisms, my brain can be switched/triggered by certain things, I can feel it. I do believe there are certain types of interactions I cannot ever manage or control, even though I’ve gotten leaps better (I think HG would know what I mean), but thankfully I am ever unlikely to encounter them, or rarely.

            I agree with the sentiment, I cannot be sure and I’m not HG, but my guess is many or most addicts are narcissists. And I agree Claire about empaths being prey in recovery circles. My recovery counselor was highly effective, I believe it is because he is a narc that it is so, that and CBT works *when performed properly* (big qualifying statement there). The irony of that is not lost on me. And many in my group were narcs, I took what I could and fled. I was hoovered in many ways but I can’t participate in recovery groups right now due to the narc exposure even though I should, I simply cannot.
            I can also say that my addiction did seem highly tied to narc manipulation. Sipping a margarita made me far more able to tolerate the complete and utter bullshit constantly coming from the large number of narcs I was constantly dealing with and their weird projections, triangulations, and other tactics. I GREATLY CREDIT HG for my sobriety.

          134. Love this Nunya. I’ve had a complicated history with alcohol—but it’s not something requiring attention ongoing. I just typed a long reply and my phone died to your statement of being ashamed of parenting moments. I assume the comment is lost. All I know for sure is that I got very sick from being water boarded daily and did what a person is capable of while living in hell—not much. He really is awful—on the spectrum of his flavor for insults and hideous behavior he’s way up there—Not being dramatic. I’ve dated more than one. He is absolutely awful. There were not pleasant moments—not for years. I actually had amazing stamina to take it for so long. He doesn’t fluctuate much in his flavor for negative fuel—really has a taste for emotionally beating and beating a person. It’s no wonder.. I wish he would disappear. He serves no use to anyone. He is a detriment to the kids, his girlfriend will be devalued.. He isn’t Steve Jobs style successful… I’d shove him into a pit of wild hungry pigs if I wouldn’t go to prison.

          135. I forget if you’ve said his school/cadre, Claire.

            The worst relationship I’ve ever had was a lesser, I don’t know more specifically- maybe middle lesser, victim of course, I’d suppose. He was an ongoing, “waterboarding” as you say, daily torment as well. Locking the doors and taking the phone away, screaming for an hour in a fit, sometimes shoving me onto the floor, if I got out the front door (happened a couple times) he’d jump in front of my car, and even once followed me to work.
            I was a mess. His next victim told me once about how he’d wake her up to feed the baby even though she’d worked the night shift. I told her that he was doing it to disturb her sleep so he could control her because she couldn’t function and she looked surprised.
            I tried to get therapy and he went also, but they’d no understanding and no ability to intervene and no comprehension of how to extricate me. First thing to understand…THE VICTIM IS TIRED.

            I still have a hard time not blaming myself for things all the time, I still say “oh but remember the time I did *x narcissistic behavior*”….
            and I did. But I just keep reminding myself I’m NOT a narc, so….
            I can do what I want now. Let go of the projections. The clarity is very helpful.

          136. He’s a middle mid whatever.. To a T. It surprises me how foul he is. He is an engineer and runs a small company. He isn’t worth anything—gambled away hundreds of thousands in the market carelessly. He’s worthless.

          137. Oh my! I’ve already purchased the mug, HG. I’m pretty sure a poster would look good around here somewhere ; ).

          138. Great idea, Claire! K was going to do that for her daughter. Pink with sparkles!

          139. SMH
            When I read Claire’s comment, I LMAO! That might possibly be some epic challenge fuel and he might respond with an ST or the clothes might mysteriously disappear (gaslighting)! What T-shirt? I don’t know what you are talking about; you are going crazy.

          140. “I’ve Crossed The Emotional Sea”. I certainly have and I’ve decided it’s a certificate of accomplishment worthy of a wall display.

          141. Certificates next, then, HG, for graduating from Tudor U. Maybe one year NC? That could be a talisman.

          142. Thank you Claire. This situation is more minor, but seemed ridiculous to me and they were unwavering, unapologetic and definitely confusingly altering facts and using dubious rationalizations so I just decided to withdraw involvement, which is why I’m questioning it. But my concern was if we stayed they were going to “talk to him” and I already was finding myself mired in a quicksand trying to figure out what the hell they were trying to say, so I basically just said “no more talking” because I don’t want to listen to it, it’s one-sided and circular. If it was truly two-sided they could say whatever they like.
            I’m really not much of a disciplinarian, so I always question myself on that, but I like to work from motivation and then I’m not much for perfection, just personal goals, so I don’t know. My son is likely dyslexic, so it’s been a different learning curve with different expectations. He is a “late bloomer” sort. Which I think is good because who needs a kid who matures quickly these days? He is tall and handsome, which I hope doesn’t get him into trouble, and smart though. A little too “stoic” which worries me (can withhold emotionally) but seems to have empathy, love animals, etc… He can get indignant and I never know if I should support it or argue with it depending on the circumstances, I want him to have an opinion. He NEVER gets into trouble though, at school or sports, and he asks to participate even when he isn’t ever winning, so I want him to be appreciated for dedication. And they kicked him out of the meet. They stand by it while simultaneously saying that it’s really the fault of this upstart kid he’s been hanging out with and say they admit he was unfortunately “guilty by association”. What does that mean? It makes no sense at all. I haven’t seen a problem with the other kid, it seems they just don’t like him, and I found out the coach used to date his mom.

            Like you were saying, I’ve always said if there was a bullying issue I’d pull my kid out of school. There are so many options as they get older, online school, home school, charter school, half day school. I hope she gets into a safe, protected place. I’ve just been trying to give adult perspective when the other kids do weird shit. Like other kids trying to get her to do their half of a school project or being required to share something as a team and then taking all of it for themselves. Who knows what’s going on at home for some of the kids.

            Ugh, I don’t know how to parent.

          143. Oh, MP, you know it’s too bad that girl can’t stay with you. The 7pm thing kills me. Seems the child is an inconvenience.

          144. Claire, K, NB,

            I’m having a hard time keeping track of the comments here because I don’t get notified by WordPress.

            But just for update on the girl, her behavior has improved so much ever since we talked to her several times. My husband gave her rules that she needs to follow through so that we will invite her again next year which he called the rules of two:
            1. She can only ask up to two stupid questions per day and that should continue even when she’s back home in Utah.
            2. She has to say ‘I love you’ twice to her parents every day.
            3. She has to kiss her parents twice a day.
            4. She has to ask for her dad to help her twice a day. She said that her mom does everything and he doesn’t talk very much. So to force him to get involved with her my husband thinks that this might help.

            He talked to his sister, the grandmother and she was shocked at the first rule which I had a feeling she would. I was also somewhat surprised when he told the kid that her questions are stupid but he is telling the truth so I can’t really lie to defend her. Although his sister liked the three other rules. He talked to his sister about how ridiculous the 7pm bedtime is. But he told her that the kid is really sweet (which she really is) but she’s extremely starving for attention.

            Tomorrow morning is when she leaves. I have been printing off pictures of the things that she did here and we will make a scrapbook of it tonight. I took her to Walmart to pick a scrapbook. It is hard when it’s a kid especially when it is not your kid because what you can do is very limited. I never got angry with her even though I almost wanted to run and pull my hair and scream 😱 so many times. She’s so amazingly sweet, has very small and meek voice, but she’s extremely attention-seeking asking dumb questions or questions that you just answered a few minutes ago every two minutes. She also pretends to not hear you even if your voice is loud so that you would repeat yourself. She said that her ears have been checked and there’s nothing wrong with them. She had a teacher get mad at her for the same thing. She doesn’t accept ‘no’ and always try to negotiate in a manipulative way so she can get her way. I could not be upfront with her because I’m not very close to her mom and grandma and I have already been smeared by my SD’s to them so I tried to assert boundaries by ignoring ludicrous questions and pretending to not hear her when she spoke too softly. But my husband has more authority that I do because he’s the older brother of her grandma.

            The good thing is yesterday when I took her to Walmart and her mom called, I heard her end the call by saying ‘I love you’ for the first time since she was here. But the bad news is that even though her voice started to get louder and more confident since she has been here, as soon as she said hello to her mom on the phone, her voice sounded like a tiny mouse again and very subservient to her mom. I think she’s not completely NPD yet but her mom is really giving me bad vibes. I am being really nice to her mom though so that we can invite her again next year to see if she has improved. My husband wants to call her mom to tell her that her daughter doesn’t have anxiety but she gave him lots of anxiety while she was here! 😊. And also to convince her that 7pm bedtime is too early.

            Claire, the slime making hobby is a pain in the butt! I thought that I was so smart to tell her that she can make slime at the picnic table outside while I catch up on house chores but was I so misguided. She constantly asked me for all kinds of ingredients all day. Constantly asking to add more salt, more baking soda, more shaving cream etc. I hope that it goes away by the time my kids grow older. 😬

          145. Slime is going nowhere! It was a nightmare mess. I think they even used all my laundry soap to maintain the habit and all my Tupperware for containers. It was while I wasn’t functional though so I had a house helper generally stuck cleaning it up. I was fairly immobilized for a few years. I’m not kidding. It’s a fuzzy memory because I had gotten so depressed and sick. Thoughts on the post—be back later.

          146. Claire I’m happy that it is way behind you now and you’re not married to him anymore and that you found narcsite to get to the ‘zero impact’ stage. Now you just laugh at him and his disorder. They are not worth any space in our minds.

          147. Omg we are still married! He won’t divorce me without a plethora of bullshit. I got an email yesterday though.. It’s possible we have court on July 23rd. Unless he files a continuance which he is good at. I will absolutely celebrate here when it’s over. Lol

          148. Claire
            Welcome to Narc Vegas! He is getting fuel by frustrating the divorce process. Oh man, I feel bad for you! It does feel like a life sentence. Keep reading and posting your way through it.

          149. I’m like a damn BP station for fuel from the divorce aspect. He actually sent a text to me complaining about me inadvertently the other day! He twisted some reality and was a victim of course. The last time we were scheduled in court he asked for a continuance and it was denied. He wanted to talk 1:1 with the judge and it was denied! It’s ridiculous.

          150. Claire
            They twist everything; ignore the texts if you can. Denied! That must have pissed him off! They don’t like to be controlled but he had to hold it together in court (facade maintenance). Ouch.

          151. I am sending HG the picture of the divorce stamp on the day it happens and a shattered wedding photo image. Will you post it HG? Haha! He loves it! He’s a victim of a crazy woman and he stuck in there for a lot of years—martyrdom! One of his affairs actually called me to tell me I was crazy last year. It’s ridiculous nonsense. When he was told no one wanted to talk to him he was wounded that day in court!

          152. OMG Claire, I didn’t realize that you’re still married to him. They really are pains in the rear. It’s so hard to get rid of them. They are like leeches that cling as tight as they could so they can keep sucking our blood. 😩

          153. Omg MP—it’s insane. I could sell
            my house in an hour because of where it is—it’s too small and I’m dying to get out of it. I can’t do a thing because even though it’s in my name only he is entangled legally. I’ve been stuck here for years because he lost hundreds of thousands of dollars gambling. I was pregnant with my son when I found out. I have always been “ok” due to my capacity and my family but he had to declare bankruptcy (which didn’t impact my perfect credit) but I was stuck. He’s been a complete fucking nightmare. Not only was his daily behavior forever awful, he was a financial disaster. When I met him he had a wealthy portfolio and a home/nice everything. He pissed it all away. He gambled so much he had nothing in retirement. Nothing. He has a good job—but he loses them every few years for mysterious reasons. (Haha—mystery solved..) He has no idea about my family’s financial wealth—my mom lives in the same home for 50 years (she is high maintenance but one of those people who aren’t flashy) and I never discussed their finances with him—although—he inquires as he’s caught mention of money from my kids overhearing things. I’ve known for years not to get into any joint anything with him. Not a home, not a car, hide assets, etc. I’m trying not to whine—it’s just the facts of why getting him legally disengaged is so important. I do have plans for a complete remodel to sell and I just need to be able to pull the trigger and get the work done but can’t improve the property until it’s done. It’s a royal pain in my ass.

          154. Claire that is really awful. What an idiot he is. I’m sorry that he affected your finances like that. I hope that you get your complete freedom from him ASAP. I can’t wait for you to be able to sell your house and start your life brand new. And I hope that the market skyrockets at that time that you sell it. You deserve so much good karma for putting up with that man.

          155. Endless nonsense. He accused me of colluding with an appraiser as well to diminish his payout. That’s why he wanted to talk privately last month with a judge. I wouldn’t even think of approaching a licensed person to do such a thing. Not in a million years.

          156. Claire, it sounds like he has paranoia as well. It’s pretty common with people with NPD. Just ignore his accusations. It’s all part of his pathological thinking. It can be really provocative when they accuse you because they say it with so much conviction. But just treat him as you would treat a special needs person when you experience that. Whatever he says means nothing to you. Even if it looks like what he says means everything to him. HG Tudor also talked about all of us being entitled to different perspectives. It did help me to not get emotional over false accusations. I just think that they are entitled to their own truth (no matter how false it is, they really believe it) and we have our own truth. I don’t care about their truth. All I care about is my truth.

          157. He basically functions like a special needs person! Except they are often sweet and kind.

          158. So true Claire. My husband and I have made the same observations between my special needs stepson and my mom. He’s the only step kid that I have who likes me.

          159. MP—I was once in a quasi-step/parent scenario once. I was quite young—in college. He was older and very arrogant, flashy, attractive, bar owner, (my usual!).. He had two kids and a “crazy ex wife.” I wish I could have saved his son. His son is likely a narcissist now, although he told me he’s so appreciative because I made math come alive for him and he learned from me—he was behind in his studies and I quickly caught him up as a youngster. He was so full of potential and it was lost.. This man’s daughter and his ex wife—we are forever friends and we love one another like family. His ex wife provided me a lesson is class, love, and honor. I watched him destroy his son—it makes my heart ache. So, at the end of the day relish the step son who does like you. Those that do not are incapable which is their inherent weakness, not yours.

          160. MP—on second hand.. Maybe I keep it and travel more. You should see the kitchen/bath pictures I’m leaning toward. Solid white cabinetry, soft grays..

          161. I can’t wait to see it Claire! A small home is easier to maintain if you’re always traveling. 😊

          162. Haha—I found a pretty ornate patio with a fire thingy in the middle and it was pretty sweet.

          163. MommyPino
            The parents are the problem and the child shouldn’t be held responsible for her abuse or neglect, nor should the child be expected to fix the situation. If you suspect that the mother is NPD and the father is absent, why would your husband tell the 9-year-old to kiss her parents and say I love you.

            The onus should be placed on the adults, not the child. She shouldn’t be expected to ask her dad for help. The father should man up and do his job and by expecting a child to force her own father to get involved with her is not helpful at all. It is completely misguided.

            Some narcissistic mothers will do everything around the house, that’s control, and this marginalizes every one else in the household and then she will look like the martyr and use this control to get pity and look like the Saint or the good housewife (facade maintenance).

            It is very clear that the parents fucked her up and the child is not responsible for her situation at all and your husband should recognize that.

          164. Haha K, in this instance I don’t need to assert control with my husband. I just respect that he got tired of me talking too much about HG and narcissism so I’m giving him respite. He knows that I still go here. I check the blog when he’s not around because when he’s around I give him full attention. But when he comes home and sees me reading narcsite and asks me what I’m reading, I tell him that I’m reading narcsite.

            The girl was prescribed Trazodone as a sleeping aid. But my husband thinks that she’s too young and he talked to an anesthesiologist about it and he agreed with him. He wants to talk to the matrinarc about finding alternatives like delaying the bedtime and making her more active during the day. The matrinarc defers to my husband because he is older than her mom but she would not listen to me because I’m just his third wife so I’m just being nice to her and avoid challenging her.

            I felt bad when at the times he got angry at her. I talked to him about it several times but he said that she’s not sensitive like me. He seems to be correct. She seems to be unaffected by the things he said to her, even the harsh ones. I was wondering if she is either getting negative fuel because he’s still giving her attention or if she is an empathy like Sophie. There were times that I made it lighter by defending her but I’m letting him tell her the truth though about her behaviors that can drive people crazy. She needs to know it so she can change it. Regardless, she still prefers to stay here with us than come home to her parents. She told us that we give her more attention than her parents do. But she said that she loves her parents but do not miss them. She said that she misses her younger sister. I believe that because when we do something fun she brings her sister up to me and tells me that next year when she comes back here with her sister her sister might like that too. So I believe that she has empathy. She also followed through on my husband’s request to her to tell her parents ‘I love you’. So I think it’s promising. 🙂 Thank you K for helping me figure all of this out. Thank you for the clarity once again. <3

          165. A 7pm bedtime is insane if I recall the time correct from a prior post! Unless you have the kid up at 4-5am to milk the cows on the farm! Whoever prescribed the Trazodone is an idiot unless multiple things have been tried/they are mislead/who knows. It’s actually a pretty benign (relatively speaking—needing it for a kid seems odd) drug, it’s just that it’s really not a first choice for sleep which tells me mom is likely no stranger to the doctors office. I cleaned out my medicine cabinet two days ago—everything was expired by a few years. I am fortunate my kids are healthy and I generally tell them to suck it up! Nurses are awful many times, as you know we had a broken ankle last night and I almost didn’t take her for an X-ray! My bad. 🤷🏼‍♀️ (it wasn’t uber obvious)
            I am pleased to see the interest in her from you—these kids are hard to decipher because they have so many things going on. I’m not thinking HG can look at all kid situations at that age and give a definitive because they are potentially malleable to an extent—although certainly if there are certain things occurring it’s a done deal. (Fires, cruelty to animals, etc.) HG—weigh in if you can.. It would be too hard I think to “peg” some questionable stuff.

          166. Claire you are so correct. That is probably why professionals don’t do a diagnosis until adulthood. Kids are confusing and malleable. It is very hard to tell especially since we don’t know her that well. I have met the girl when she was three when we visited for a few days in Utah and she was so amazingly gregarious and sweet. She made me want to have a girl because she’s so cute. I was the only one that she lets inside her tent. Then we saw her again last year with her mom and grandma when they visited California after the grandfather died. I think he was a holy narcissist. The girl appeared very sweet and shy. We decided to fly her here this year for a two weeks vacation. The mom almost didn’t allow her but my husband asked her if she remembers when her dad wouldn’t let her visit him alone or even swim in his pool so she changed her mind and gave the girl permission. The girl’s personality when she is just here without her parents at first was so different from the personality that we thought she has. I think what got my husband upset is that there was too much whining and questions and requests which really makes you feel that what you did didn’t impress her enough. But at the end there was much less whining, questions and requests. I guess we were also spoiled by our kids because they are so easy and always so grateful and happy. I wonder if they change to be more narcissistic by the time they are nine or so. Maybe she was also just not taught social skills but not really narcissistic. It is hard to tell. But I think the good part is that we all had a lot of fun moments during her visit here. Her mom was really thankful. And also I think that my husband is really sweet to take a day off to fly to Utah to pick her up personally and take another day off to bring her back. He could have just paid an extra $100 to have somebody watch her on the plane but he decided to be there with her personally for her first airplane ride. I hope that she doesn’t develop NPD because I think that it I a life sentence and I have seen how destructive it was to my sister who was amazingly smart and to my mom whom I think could have been a good person if she didn’t have NPD.

          167. “The females outnumber the males in my world and, sometimes, they create chaos, then dramatically fix it and claim heroine status with The Expectation of Recognition for their valiant efforts to fix what they fucked up in the first place. It’s The Perfect Storm for the purposes of generating fuel.”

            Oh, and that, K. You are so so right. Creating problems just to fix them. What a trick. I had a man doing it recently too. “Are you still mad at me?” is a ridiculous text.
            No.

          168. nunya biz
            They love to create a Shitstorm and then “solve the dilemma”; it makes them look smart. Ha ha ha…ignore all ridiculous texts! Honestly, like we have time for their shenanigans.

          169. Agree, K. When dealing with NPD, anything can be used against you and the coping mechanisms developed are there for a reason, they protect against something very real and not her job to fix, it’s a subtle suggestion she is the cause. Saying “I love you” to my mother only got a painful lack of response. I am reminded not to ever waste my time on such self absorption ever again.

          170. nunya biz
            I would never tell an abused child to kiss her abusers or to say: I love you. I would try to get that child some help.

          171. K
            When we were small my mother instructed us to kiss StepN goodnight as he lay on the couch each night. He would stare straight ahead and receive it like the King that he thought he was but never acknowledge us in any way. I know it went on from (in my case) age 5 to at least grade 3 (8) and can’t remember exactly at what age or how it stopped, but I remember feeling sick at having to do it but fear if I didn’t. It IS child abuse. Full stop.

          172. NA, are you saying that we abused the kid for asking her to say I love you and give kisses to her parents? It is different from your situation because these are her real parents and not a stepparent. She loves both of them although she said that she didn’t want to go home.

          173. mommypino
            I would tell my narcissistic children to go NC with their biological parents because they are being abused by them.

            GOSO and NC applies to N v N.

          174. But K, she’s 9 yrs old. And my husband doesn’t think that the mom is a narc. He just thinks that his BiL screwed her up with the way he raised her. He’s coming from a totally different perspective.

          175. K, Also we can’t call child protective services or any outfit to take the kid from the mom because the kid is taken care of by her mom. I am thinking that the mom is an engulfing matrinarc like my mom. Except that I think now that she’s a Lower Mid-Ranger and not a Lesser. When the kid was here she didn’t know anything. She can’t even operate the remote control or make her bed or brush her hair or open the shampoo bottle. She said that her mom did everything for her. I started refusing to do them for her and told her that she can try doing them. At first she thought that they were too hard so I helped her a little bit but eventually she did them on her own and praised that she did well on her own. I made her help with unloading the dishwasher too. But in the outside world, her mom’s behavior is not enough to take the child from her. Narcissistic parenting is oftentimes very hard to pinpoint and prove. Unfortunately in majority of the cases, the power to save the kids from it rests on the other non narc parent. But in this case, the non narc dad is too lame. It’s honestly surprising that they ended up with such a cute kid if you see both parents. It’s like an anomaly.

          176. mommypino
            You are 100% correct, Child Services, the police and the courts are not very helpful. She would need a court appointed guardian ad litem. The situation that you describe reminds me of one of my LMRNs. She infantilized her daughter so badly that the “child” could not cross the street at the age of nineteen; she needed adult supervision to do so and whined about it. Infantilization is a malign parental hoover.

            It was very nice that you put the effort into having her help with chores and do things for herself. That’s what she needs; a kind person to show her what a normal mother is like. Her situation is really, really sad.

            One of my Narc mother’s would put the cream cheese on her children’s bagels while they all sat motionless around the table. The children were old enough to do it themselves. Doing their laundry, cleaning bedrooms, paying phone bills, all forms of control, which are binding.
            On the flip side, those are residual benefits for the narcissistic children. It is a parasitic dynamic. They are often lazy slobs and jobless.

          177. K, That is interesting about the cream cheese etc. MRN once told me that his sister was such a ‘control freak’ (pot, meet kettle) that her kids did not know how to get milk out of the fridge themselves. Also, MRN’s brother had a four year affair, got caught and his wife left him. Is it possible that all three siblings are narcs?

          178. SMH
            Absolutely, all three siblings could be NPD. Infantilization is all about control, which guarantees fuel output.

          179. Great observation, K. So too is parentification. I experienced both; first the one followed by the other. Attempts to control and manipulate are everpresent for the child of an N no matter how young/old.

            Like the borg, the N may wish to assimilate and control, but resistance is definitely not futile! I am loving my new hybrid HG/K weapon: OOCGE (observe only, cease giving energy)! Works perfectly.

          180. FYC
            It’s all about the Prime Aims and control is central to that.

            Ha ha ha….I love the hybrid HG/K weapon! And, I have made a note of it. It makes complete sense, observe only, cease giving energy. When I was a child, sometimes, I would watch the chaos and then walk away. Now we understand what the chaos was all about, Fuel.

          181. So true, K. BTW, infantilization did not work whatsoever due to my independent nature (FTSSH!). Unfortunately, the parentification worked for a short time. Even years later the N will attempt to highjack good qualities to serve their purposes. Post HG, and the many realizations that followed I only do what is in keeping with my conscience and values. My contact is very limited. With OOCGE I am liberated even in those instances. Heartfelt gratitude abounds!

          182. FYC
            Like you, I am too independent for infantilization and I have no problem helping out but I will not “take care” of individuals who are capable. My contact is very limited with my mother. I took her on some errands a couple of weeks ago so she got fuel and residual benefits. I did my best to OOCGE; it went well.

          183. I agree, K, and I love OOCGE! So glad to hear your close encounter was non-eventful (any more than the usual that is). 😉

          184. P.S.
            My pleasure FYC!
            When we put our ET in its place, it does feel liberating.

          185. Hmm, K, guess I would not be happy in that family! The three siblings have three children each and all of the children within each family are of the same sex. The sister has three boys and both brothers have three girls. It strikes me as genetically odd. Also, the brothers with daughters both cheat on their wives.

            Anyway, observe only, cease giving energy is very good advice! That would be a fantastic T-shirt slogan, HG.

          186. Mommypino
            No, I am not saying that at all. You/your husband tried something unaware of what the possible repercussion could be. I provided an example of forced affection, how it affected me, and my position on it. You can consider that and your position on it with regard to the child in future, or you can reject it outright and continue to think it’s the best course of action for her. As always, the choice is yours. It is merely information to consider. My position is that knowledge considered from several positions can lead to more informed decisions. It was not personal.

          187. Thank you NA for clarifying. I’m glad that that is what you meant and not what I thought you did. It made me feel awful for my husband who genuinely tried and also because he didn’t want to get involved at first and I pushed him and guilted him into helping the kid and so he did. His approach may have not been the best approach but the kid was just so happy about her vacation with us and she didn’t seem to mind what he said, she did tell him that it might not work and at times she was looking at him quietly like she was thinking that he just doesn’t know everything. He did tell his sister about the homework and asked her to support the kid and encourage the dad to get involved so it’s not fully on the kid’s responsibility. The kid loves him and even when they got home to the airport, her mom was there to pick her up but she wouldn’t leave his side when they were having lunch. He called his sister and the mom yesterday morning to check on the bedtime and the changes. He is not very empathic so he’s not well attuned to people’s feelings like we are but I think that he genuinely cares. I remember HG’s posts about wrong advice on victims by people that mean well, I guess this can fall into that category. But I don’t think that this is as bad as making kids ingratiate themselves to the adult stepparent that they haven’t warmed up to. That is in so many ways a violation of the kid’s rights, space, etc. It is sickening. I’m sorry that you experienced that. That’s probably why you are so protective of people because as a child you deserved to be protected but was not.

            About your experience, it was absolutely awful.

          188. NA, in your situation, I agree that it was abuse. Even my husband’s wouldn’t tell a kid to say: I love you to a stepparent that the child hasn’t warmed up to yet. It was disrespectful to your feelings. It should have been initiated by the stepparent who was an outsider. He should have been the one who should have ingratiated himself to the children who were very young.

            In this case, the child loves her parents but she doesn’t like her life with them. She even thinks that her dad is nice even though he’s always quiet. She doesn’t seem to think that they abuse her. She’s even protective of them by changing her stories or answers to our questions when she saw our reactions. It’s a very complicated situation.

          189. NarcAngel
            Absolutely. Telling children to kiss, hug or reach out to their abuser(s) is almost as bad as the abuse itself. In some ways, it is worse. That’s control, invalidation, parentification (a child is obliged to parent the parent) and gas lighting. I would never, ever do that to a child. It shows a complete and utter lack of empathy.

          190. NA, I don’t mean to pry, but I think you have already had a consultation with HG regarding your mother. If you know now what she is, would you care to share? I think it is an interesting example. But, as always, feel free to tell me to mind my own business 😉 (you have never done so, I know).

          191. Lou
            A consultation has been secured regarding my mother but I have not yet had it. I have deferred it a bit due to a lot of things happening at present and needing time to dedicate to providing the proper information. I have no issue with sharing the results once obtained or with you asking.

          192. Ok. Thanks for your reply NA. I would be interested to know what comes out of that consultation about your mother.

          193. Yes, multiple midrange males I see doing it. They definitely think they look smart with circular “fixes” for their own assholery. Like “please acknowledge how magnanimous I am, you cannot deny that while I am projecting terrible completely made up judgments and controls at you I am still forgiving you for clearly standing there like the fair and decent person that I am in my infinite patience.”

            But usually with more arrogance.

            I do have more free time.

          194. K, I agree with you. That was also how I felt when he gave her those rules or homework. When I overheard her in the car to Walmart say ‘I love you’ to her mom it pained my heart because I heard hesitation in her voice and I did not hear of her mom responded but I really hope that she did. Although I thought that making her dad more involved might help. The onus cannot be placed on the matrinarc because she is disordered. The onus cannot be placed on the dad because he is too weak. And unfortunately, I think that the grandma is too weak or too clueless as well. I know that those rules will not change anything in her life. The only positive thing that I saw with those rules is to make her realize that her family dynamics is not normal and that there is a better way and that she has the power to be proactive even though she may not get reciprocated. When she saw us kiss so much at our house and during her first night we told our kids to kiss her she said that it’s disgusting (with a smile) and that they never kiss at home. She compromised and said the kids can kiss her but only on her head. At first she squirmed but during the last days she was looking forward to get kisses on her head from the kids and she smiles.
            When my husband got home I asked what happened when she met the mom and his sister. He said that he told them that from now on her bedtime is 8:30pm and 7pm is ridiculous. I asked the mom’s expression, he said that it’s hard to understand his niece because she’s not expressive. She looked surprised that he declared that the girl’s bedtime is now 8:30 but all that she said after his sales pitch about the bedtime was, “well then I guess she has a new bedtime now.” I asked what he observed regarding the mom and the girl’s interaction. He said that the mom or his niece is just not like us. She’s not interactive and she almost looks detached. He said that his niece is like the opposite of me where even if I’m just smiling there is a lot of energy coming from me. He said that her affect is like that of a dead fish. She doesn’t have any life or personality in her affect. He thinks that she’s really screwed up but he is not saying anything about narcissism. He said that the girl was beaming and excited to show them the scrapbook that we made and kept talking about all of us and the things that we did and the grandma was really impressed with the scrapbook trying to match the girl’s excitement but the mom was so flat and was looking at the pictures saying wow that looks like fun but with a monotone voice.

            My husband doesn’t have a lot of faith in his sister either to make any substantial change. He said that she just allowed her husband to control her and their daughter for so many years. He brought up to them about the girl’s voice and told them from now on she will speak in a loud and confident voice and not a mouse voice. He said that his sister agreed that the mouse voice is not good. But he said that he was thinking that she noticed the mouse voice before and yet she didn’t do anything about it. I think that there is nothing much that can be done. He didn’t even want to talk to them about the girl’s issues because of fear of encroaching but I did my best to convince him and he ended up changing his mind. The most that we can do is keep the connection and keep it friendly. He did give the mom money to enroll the kids for swimming lessons so at least that would be a tangible positive change if they learn how to swim.

          195. MommyPino
            The poor child probably never gets affection at home so she isn’t used to seeing or receiving it. Her mother (the niece) reminds me of one of my narcissists, who’s a mother of two children, no affect at all. It doesn’t look good but enrolling the child in swimming lessons may be helpful. Hopefully, the mother won’t pocket the money, that’s what my lessers would do. I really feel bad for the little girl; it’s so heartbreaking and it was very nice of you to make a scrapbook. Children matter and they need love and attention and at least she got that from you.

          196. I have for sure seen that Claire. I’ve always said “the one who prolongs or aggravates the divorce is the narc”. Repeated filings to deter, etc…it should be illegal.

          197. Also K, if you have met the dad you would realize that he isn’t capable of manning up. He almost looks like a special needs person. Whenever I tried to get him to talk he just smiled and look at his wife and she answered me for him. I was able to get him to talk a one or two times when his wife was not around.
            The grandma told my husband that she knows her daughter is not demonstrative with affection but she does tell her grandkids that she loves them whenever they visit with her. She also hugs and kisses them.
            I remember Anm told me before that sometimes it’s best to leave out the word ‘narcissist’ because of cognitive dissonance. I think that this is one instance where it would not be helpful if my husband told my SIL that her daughter is a narc. She will get defensive and shut down. My husband is that way now. Every time I use the word narcissism he would look down. How useful would it be to coerce them to listen if their hearts and minds are shut down anyway and would not believe me? It will just cause friction and produce no outcome. At least this way, we were able to help with the bedtime, got the girl to see that her family dynamics is different, and got her to try to bring her dad out of his shell. If it doesn’t work at least she tried instead of just accepting her life. When I was with my matrinarc I also tried to make changes and has had painful results because they didn’t work. I still survived.

          198. MommyPino
            You are right. People can’t handle the N-word. You can only do the best that you can do and, sometimes, it is better to just let sleeping dogs lie.
            The father sounds like an ass!

          199. Thank you Claire. All of us here were able to thrive and overcome that’s why we are here. I remember when HG responded to a commenter saying that he thinks his readers are dumb and he said that his readers are actually smart because they are here and trying to learn, it is so true. Because I think about my SIL and she is totally normal from the outside and doesn’t look like she was abused. But if you think about how much control her husband had over her where she wasn’t allowed to go anywhere without him and he made all of their decisions for their kid and it lasted until his death, it made me think that all of us here are way ahead of her to be able to realize that something wasn’t right. She doesn’t have any clue whatsoever and couldn’t see the forest for the trees.

          200. I do think HG attracts a more astute reader. He writes well so some individuals may have a harder time finding the appeal—which is sad. Aptitude and the like shouldn’t prohibit one from finding peace and health—but it is what it is and certainly there are occasional successes in other venues.

          201. Morning HG. Yes, I just assumed everyone was dumb when I got here. It took me awhile.

          202. Indeed and there are those who are envious of my ability and success and cannot stomach that because of what I am. There is an individual on another platform (who I ignore because of course they crave desperately my reaction) who takes occasional pot shots at me and my readers. It is both amusing and pathetic. A recent example was to pronouncer astonishment at the number of individuals who follow and read my work, inferring that there is something wrong with those people and they have someone how become ‘charmed’ by me. Of course their myopic envy means they have to accuse my readers of being brainwashed, in a cult etc and completely fail to realise that there are so many readers because of one simple fact – my work is the best so people find it extremely helpful. Naturally, such an individual is incapable of applying such a logical reason, for obvious reasons.

          203. Who is it? Yes you are the best. I don’t feel charmed or brainwashed, although I do appreciate that you are well mannered and not an ass. That would be associated with just being an idiot though so wouldn’t be congruent with your work. I don’t care what you are and you don’t frighten me as would be illogical unless I suddenly went bananas and was an undercover nutcase stalking you. I think people are afraid you are a boogie man.

          204. I’ve no need to give that person any recognition even of a negative variety.

          205. Let me at ’em! As a reader, I find all of that really insulting. This is certainly not a cult. A cult is when a belief system takes over every facet of your (real) life. I could see if maybe you ran HG Tudor’s camp for girls it might turn into a cult, but not online. Ridiculous. Anyway, no use arguing with stupid people, as you well know, HG. But it would be interesting if one of us were to come across this HG Tudor basher. I don’t look at many other platforms – any, really.

          206. Thank you SMH. As I’ve mentioned before, we disagree over matters but it is based on a constructive discussion and manifests in a constructive fashion. There are these individuals (and they are few in number) who make these broad brush assertions without any actual evidence. I am initially tempted to take them apart with logic but they are of such little importance (they invariably have very few followers etc) and it’s their clear envy which is being shown. This one is trying to flog a book and is clearly getting little interest in it and there’s no surprises as to why that is.

          207. HG, No matter what I write here about you or directly to you it is not meant to detract from the great things you have done. It is really only because I am curious about how your mind works. I might get frustrated, but that is not a reflection on the blog. You are right not to worry about the competition. Lots of us have been on other blogs and there is no comparison.

        2. Nunya

          I think what bothers me about her comment the most is (like others that have come on here with their opinions) is the closed mindedness and lack of knowledge. Instead of calling her an idiot and judging her, how about asking her questions about the situation she was in at the time. These letters were brought about by HG to help us, to let us have a voice and to say the things we wanted to say to the narcissist in are life without breaking no contact and perhaps helping us to move and receive some type of closure. Also for some writing is very cathartic and gives them yet another way of working through what has happened to them. I don’t mind others having different opinions at all, what I mind is when they come on here and call us names and judge us without knowing the facts! It took courage for this woman not only to write that letter for thousands of people to read, she also had to relive in her mind everything that had happened to her all over again.

          1. I so much agree, fm1t about thousands of people reading it. It breaks my heart when people put everything out there and there isn’t consideration. I think it is brave and not in a patronizing way, in a real way. I think it would be difficult for me to do.

          2. Nunya

            When I wrote my letter I was so angry! I never even thought of all of the people that would be reading it, I must have added an exclamation point after every sentence I wrote. Lol. This time when it was posted there was one negative comment about the exclamation points from someone I have never seen on the blog before. All I could do was laugh when I read the comment. That person was not worth my time or effort. I think you my dear could write that letter, I am sure you have it in you! 😘🙃

        3. Btw Claire I almost did nursing, I think it sounds exciting.

          HG I wish you had something published on your view of parenting. But then I kinda think variety is good.

          1. I just saw this Nunya. My big interest is really public health. My MS was driven by getting a public health masters in nursing—but I switched to the administrative track due to limited capacity to do the practicum due to hardly being able to take off work at the time. I was able to co-mingle my administrative practicum with my “real” work hours at the time. I’ll never return to an on-call 24/7 bullshit admin job again. I can take off whenever I want—I can take classes at the university in the grad department at no cost which I had no time for before. (Any grad program)
            I can “fish” for incentives that pay physician money when they are short by strategic planning. (Knowing when they are short, etc) Full retirement, premium insurance.. If I work an extra day I can also take it off in vacation at a later date. There are tons of things you can do. It’s not bad if you work it right and since I like money I’ve always worked it right.

          2. I think I would have liked it, Claire. I also love about nursing that it is sort of a “life education”, in my opinion. That sort of thing always appeals to me. I did a semester of nursing practical out of four, that’s how close I was, had completed the prereqs. I did well, however my boy was 1 year old and I couldn’t stomach the hours, I didn’t have time with him, One of my instructors told me to stay because now was the best time to miss and then I could spend more time with him when he was a little older. I disagreed, I couldn’t take it. I was pregnant again within a year of stopping anyway, I really wanted to prioritize siblings being the right distance in age so they could experience that upbringing. I wouldn’t do it now, too much time has passed and other reasons, etc… Does sound like a great gig, I’d enjoy the interesting aspects of the job I think and I’ve always been comfortable with different kinds of people and bodies and stuff.

      2. Q,
        I was going to respond to your comment but now you’ve pissed off FM1T, the sweetest heart of narcsite. Not cool.
        The trauma bond is real. Maybe you’re new to this site because it’s basically the whole reason this blog was created. To help people finally find their way out of a seemingly impossible situation.

        1. Twisted Heart ❤️
          Thank you. That is very kind of you to say, you made my eyes leak! I am so grateful to have found HG and all of you on here. Most of you feel like family to me and are very dear to my heart. I tried to control my anger and use logic. Well Hell, that went right out the window! 🤦🏼‍♀️. I just know what it is like to be judged by people who think they are better then everyone else, I know it wasn’t easy for her to write that letter, you as an empath know how we beat ourselves up over things that we have done, whether it be are fault or not! Thank you Twisted for knowing and understanding about trauma bonding. Very few people do. I just couldn’t let it go this time, I don’t want someone new to the blog being afraid to ask for help, or to tell their story because of people like Q who are judgmental and closed minded! You are a sweetheart! Thank you again! 😘😘🙃💞

          1. I like angry FM1T so don’t apologize for a second. You were there for me when my heart was shattered and you helped me not feel alone by being so open about your feelings and nudging me in the right direction to seek the answers I needed to heal. That meant so much to me. I will always have your back. Q’s Comment struck a nerve and you unleashed some very real emotions for you and that’s ok too. We’re all here for different reasons but blaming and shaming has never been a part of this blog from what I’ve seen and I think that’s why so many of us feel safe here.
            I love reading people’s letters. I feel so proud of every single survivor because it takes a lot to get to that point of GOSO and it takes a boat load of courage to submit it to a website that has thousands of followers!

          2. And a little something I learned about the trauma bond from the WNAAD summit is that when there is trauma/abuse, PTSD and Cognitive Dissonance occur in the same part of the brain at the same time and both decrease our executive function (aka logical thinking).
            So yes from the outside looking in it is completely unbelievable why people don’t leave these relationships but our brains are literally not even operating properly. We’re surviving minute to minute and then if you’re lucky you find narcsite and everything starts to make sense and you can slowly return to your higher functioning self.

          3. Twisted I will be here for you as long as I am needed, or until HG has had enough of me🙃which ever comes first? Perhaps it is because I do know the pain that we suffer and how hard it is to tell your story and to trust again, I don’t know? All I do know is people that come on here are frightened and hurt, being able to guide them through and help them is something that is dear to my heart. The trauma bonding is very real, as I myself know that for certain, depending on how young and for how long that was a part of, or the only life you have ever known, you are conditioned to accept what is happening to you as the way things are for everyone. You survive the only way you know how m, doing anything to stay sane and alive. I don’t believe many including professionals realize how deeply this affects a person. Some perhaps can heal from it, others I believe there is simply no hope ( I believe I hate that word even more then HG does now ) for reversing the damage that was done to them. I realized just recently someone that has gone through that type of trauma and has been basically alone most of there lives, when thrown into a group of women or men that have bonded (for what ever reason) that person still feels very much alone and as if they still have not found the place they belong. That person would still choose to be with someone like the original abuser.( Whether it be a narcissist or not.) That is how strong that bond is! Most people would not understand this, but I do. So I will never turn my back on someone that has been hurt, even if I myself do not truly understand it. I have watched you over come your hurt, to once again become that amazing, strong, beautiful woman, that once again realizes how very important and special she is! 😘🙃

          4. Twisted, Nunya sent a comment me a comment that should have gone to you. It is below this one. 😊🙃

          5. That is interesting, TH, about PTSD and cognitive dissonance, I would like to hear more about that, it makes sense.

          6. Thanks FM1T for the heads up😊
            I don’t get notifications from Word Press for some reason so I have to go hunting to find comments.
            I can’t remember which speaker talked about the link between PTSD and cognitive dissonance. I did find this article from Dr. Rhonda Freeman.

            https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/neurosagacity/201701/the-brain-can-work-against-abuse-victims%3famp

            She was one of the speakers at the Summit. I found her website before I found HG last year and his work was way more useful in helping me understand the narcissist’s perspective…obviously. But for us empaths it’s important to know that we can’t blame ourselves for not leaving sooner or wanting to go back to them since both our brain and the narcissist’s brain is working against us. It’s a whole clusterfuck of dysfunction.

          7. Hi twisted! I read her article—it’s interesting and feels scientifically on target, although my experience is not interpreting this type of work. It reads intelligently and her credentials support the information. Her site suggests a professional interest in the work due to a personal experience. Paying it forward seems to be key motivation for many who spoke at the summit. Thank you for sharing.

      3. Well said FM1T!
        It’s unbelievable to some people if they’ve never experienced those things and also don’t have the empathy or imagination to consider *why* anyone would stay in that situation. In other words, it’s ignorant and idiotic to blame and judge.

      4. Thank you K. She got that from our whole family. My husband said that on the plane she was asking to come back sooner than next year and he told her that she’s not his kid and it’s all up to her parents. She asked him if she can be our kid would we want to have her and he said yes but she has her own parents. It’s very sad for the kid and she even has a baby sister. I really believe that the mom is a narc but my husband refuses to and says that she’s just screwed up by her dad’s upbringing of her. My husband is not a narc but he does have imperfections too and narcissistic traits. He doesn’t like asking for directions and he doesn’t like reading books other than history books or literature that has to do with his job. We did our genomelink to see our genetic traits and it has genes on the Big Five personality traits and he scored really low on Agreeableness while I scored medium. It means that he’s more critical and argumentative than agreeable to people’s opinions. With me being medium I can shift from being difficult like him to being really easy. My genes also say that I have a higher propensity to be empathic than most people and his day it can’t be determined. So he’s not a narc but his genes say he can be highly narcissistic. And his staunchness is not just about his refusal to hear about narcissism, it is in everything. At church when someone says something that inspired them his first reaction is to contradict or agree but will add points that he doesn’t agree with. He always criticized the books that I have read and loved when I share it to him. I think the last book that I talked to him about was written by Malcolm Gladwell and I was telling him about the things that I learned and he would point out why it’s not true or misguided or why the author is not as brilliant as I think he is. It is frustrating so I just don’t push it. 😩

        1. My pleasure MommyPino.
          I understand. Your husband reminds me of some cerebral narcissists that I know. Which book did you read by Malcolm Gladwell? I read David and Goliath and I want to read Outliers.

          1. K, I have read Outliers. I really liked it.

            My husband is not a narc. He’s too horny to be a Cerebral and he’s too smart to be a Lesser. He has never been volatile or violent towards me. He has never called me a whore or any demeaning names. Even when we argue we don’t call each other names. He has never done a disappearing act like the Mid Rangers do. No prolonged silent treatments. No withdrawal of intimacy. He has never cheated or been dishonest with money etc. He paid everybody that he owed money from when he was just starting. When he was poor and he wanted to go do his mission work as a Mormon he asked money from people to be able to be a missionary in New Zealand. He still keeps that little notebook where he listed everyone who donated money to him just because he feels grateful to them. He sucks at being a shoulder to cry on. One time I opened up about my matrinarc he said that he doesn’t understand why I’m still not over it. He is the same with everybody, even his daughters. He tries to offer practical solutions to fix the problem but he sucks at giving emotional support.

            With the FB thing, that is one case where I left out details because I didn’t have time to make a long explanation or story about what happened. For several years his daughter’s have been using Facebook to triangulate me and him with their mom, stepdad and their former stepmom (his wife before me that died). On our wedding day they both put their deceased stepmom’s picture with all of them as their profile pictures. In all of their pictures, they don’t have any picture of him but they have a lot of pictures of their mom and their stepdad who was not a part of their life until about a year after their dad started dating me. Another reason why he deleted his FB which I left out because it wasn’t relevant to the comment that I was responding to was there was one occasion where I got really angry at him and threatened to end our relationship. I saw an email from a woman to him greeting him on his birthday. I searched her email address in his email account and found out that they used to date after his second wife died and before he dated me. I saw that when he started to date me he sent my pictures to her and it pissed me off. He said that he was just showing her how pretty I am and they are just friends. For some reason I went psycho (I’m not perfect either) and I told him to unfriend her on Facebook and so he said that he will just delete his account especially since he’s tired that his daughter’s use Facebook to hurt us and also because he doesn’t really post that much and he’s not into telling everybody what he is doing. So actually it really is my fault that he deleted it. His daughter’s triangulating is part of why he got tired of Facebook but I was really the catalyst because I went psycho on him. I told you K I’m not always nice. 😬

            About the rough housing, he is a goofball indeed. I think that his dad was a Lesser. His dad was alcoholic, couldn’t read or write, worked at their local saw mill, wore overalls all the time, was mean to their mom and hated my husband but loved all the other brothers, and flirted to his wife’s duster in front of his wife. But my husband doesn’t do all of those to me. I’m not abused nor controlled. But he has a lot of narcissistic traits and I think it runs strong in their family. His older brother (by a year) I think is an UMR. There is this story when they were both in high school, my husband stood up to a bully who was bullying a girl for her looks. The bully invited my husband at the playground after class. He said ok. To his surprise, when he got to the playground so many students were there to watch including his UMR brother. Apparently they are supposed to have a boxing fight. He approached the bully to shake his hand because he thought that the boxing should start with a handshake. The bully punched him in the face right away and before he realized it the bully was beating him up. He was full of blood on the ground and he looked at his brother in the crowd and his brother stood up shaking his head and left. He said that it was the loneliest walk home ever. But then a few days after that he found out that his brother avenged him to the bully and had beaten the bully to a pulp. So he thinks that even though his brother is full of himself he can always count on his brother. Now because of reading from HG I know that the reason why his brother left instead of comforting him is because his brother didn’t have empathy and the reason he avenged him is because he is an extension of his brother and his brother was reclaiming superiority from the bully.

            My husband is highly argumentative, alpha male, sucks at being a shoulder to cry on but he is not a narcissist. My point though for bringing up that he is not perfect and highly narcissistic is that even though we are with someone who is not a narc, it doesn’t mean that the relationship will be easy. It still requires a lot of work and compromise. Nobody is perfect.

          2. mommypino
            I will put Outliers on my summer reading list. Malcolm Gladwell made some great points in David and Goliath and I really enjoyed the book.

            Your husband is highly narcissistic and you live with him and know him best. And you are correct, your husband is an extension of his brother and his brother was challenged so he made short work of the bully to draw fuel and assert superiority. The comment on SATN surprised me and it reminded me of my family and my ULNs family. Head pushing, arm punching and pillow fights frequently turned violent. That is one of my Red Flags, also, adults don’t usually engage with their romantic partners like that. That type of behavior is more common among teenaged boys and young children.

          3. Thank you K, SMH and Lou. I think the reason he has Lesser traits is because he grew up in that environment. He has two other living brothers and they are all highly narcissistic, except that I am pretty sure the second to the oldest which is a year older than my husband is a real UMR. I used to think that he might be a Greater but I asked him about narcissism and he said that he doesn’t know anything about it so if he’s not aware of it then he’s definitely not a Greater. He didn’t finish school but ended up being amazing with computers and one of the best hackers for the government and became a VP of a big Silicon Valley company. He’s retired now. The company used to pay for his signature haircut that looks like that of Steven Seagal where there’s a little ponytail at the back and he looked like a total bad ass. He’s 6’2” and has that prominent Portuguese features. He has unapologetic demeanor but incredibly charming. My husband is charming in a different way but during reunions with him he makes sure that he outshines my husband. It really annoys my husband so sometimes when he plans to visit his sister and finds out that his UMR brother will visit too my husband cancels because he knows it’s going to be all about his older brother again and he doesn’t want to be one of his ass kissers. But even though all of them became successful, when they are together, they are total Lessers with how goofy they are. They argue about who has the biggest ears, the biggest head, the biggest belly, the least hair left etc. The oldest brother even picked on their sister’s butt which we all told him is really weird to do. But my husband is actually a good guy with always the best intentions. He just sometimes can be naive or too insensitive. And it now makes sense to me when I saw his genetic results that he is low in Agreeableness why he tends to disagree a lot. He can’t help it! It’s in his genes! Although I have read that people with dark triad traits such as NPD score low in Agreeableness, it doesn’t mean that they are automatically disordered. A lot of people who score low in Agreeableness are Normals. I found this about Low in Agreeableness:
            https://my-personality-test.com/big-5/agreeableness/agreeableness–low

            Also K, I will not be able to go to Narcsite for about a month or so. I think my matrinarc is near the end so i will go home to the Philippines this Thursday. I just don’t want to have any regrets. I will take with me the knowledge from Narcsite. May the force be with me lol.

          4. MP, I didn’t think your husband was a lesser, but I don’t read all the comments for several reasons. However, from what I have read, I have the impression your husband is in the middle of all these women who are angry, jealous, frustrated and attacking each other because of him, directly or indirectly, and he seems to feed the fire, apparently with the best intentions. That is a big red flag to me.
            Also, he seems to dismiss a lot of your views, specially when you try to point out the behaviors of his daughters towards you and your children, or he is just not paying the attention he should be paying pretending to just want peace and it really isn’t all that bad.
            He also seems to contradict you often and, as I said, dismiss your views and what is important to you (NPD).
            I don’t know him, I know. I have just noticed these behaviors you have mentioned that, in my view, are red flags.
            I wish you a safe trip and may the force be with you, MP.

          5. mommypino
            Sorry about your mother and may the force be with you! Good luck and you will be missed! See you when you return to narcsite.

          6. Mommypino, Of course you are right that someone can be highly narcissistic without being a narcissist. Safe travels and best of luck with your mum!

          7. Hi MP. I have not read all the comments on these thread but I understand K was pointing out at some red flags in your husband’s behavior, something I had also noticed. Of course, you know your husband better. I just wanted to let you know that none of my narcissists did the things you mention in your comment above either. None of them insulted me, called me names, disappeared, cheated (not that I know at least), withdrew intimacy or gave me silent treatments. The last narc I had a relationship with was difficult to spot and being close to him didn’t help because he really was harmless and acted as a perfectly nice decent guy. I recognized his NPD in the way he would provoke emotional reactions from me. It was done in a very subtle apparently harmless way. Sometimes I thought it was me who did not have enough patience with him because he had dyslexia and we were from different cultures too. What I want to say is that, if you find yourself often upset about what his daughters said and how he fails to see and do things, how he tells you what they say about you, which hurts you and creates conflict between you and his family, or how he does things that irritate you, you should really take those things as red flags.
            Lou

          8. Lou
            Exactly, she described my MMRN to a T, with the exception of withdrawal, which happened during the Stranger Zone and none of my Mid-rangers engaged in head pushing or pillow fights, ever. That’s lesser behaviour. And his daughters are disordered and since he raised them, most of the time, then that speaks volumes. By failing to recognize that they are disordered and their behaviour is completely appropriate, is denial, lack of accountability and gaslighting. Denial is the First Line of Defence and indicates that he feels attacked and a lack of control. Let’s stamp out the rebellion by banning anything narcissism. Assertion of superiority.

          9. K, it’s the dynamics between his daughters, MP and her husband where I saw the biggest red flag. The war between all the women around him and he telling MP the things his daughters say about her which obviously will hurt her or make her even angrier against them. And I suppose he does the same with his daughters. That is sheer triangulation and provocation.
            Also, the things she has wrote that he says are red flags.
            I agree, it is too weird that the daughters are narcissists but he isn’t. I don’t know, maybe the mother was a narcissist.
            All I am saying is that she should observe her husband’s behaviors with more distance and a more critical mind.

          10. Lou
            That’s where I saw red flags too. Trying to make it work for holidays/birthdays makes no sense when it is very clear that the daughter’s behaviour was provocative.

          11. SMH, thank you for wishing me a safe flight. From what I wrote, it does sound weird now that I think about it him making reference about my looks to her daughters. But understand that this has gone on for about ten years and what I write here are just little bits of that period. His daughters have been critical about me being short and too fair skinned and that my looks are just ok whereas their mom is gorgeous, amazingly beautiful etc. Or their first stepmom that died was blonde, pretty, and had big chest. They made comments that unlike their mom, I don’t have a big booty which they both got from their mom. If you would listen to them, it is like I am just so unfortunate in the looks department unlike their mom who is extremely and perfectly beautiful. Even while I was helping them or praising them like when I helped my younger stepdaughter pick her pageant dress and I paid for most of it as a gift to her (I was still working then) because her dad would not approve the purchase of the really expensive dress that she wanted and I told her that she is so beautiful in that dress when I was driving her home after buying it she told me that it is because she has a beautiful mom and she looked at me with a malicious smirk. I mean, it’s really hard to fully explain here what I went through with these girls but my husband saw it and he tried to stand up for me whenever he could but he is also their dad and he has eternal hope that they are nice people inside and they will come around.

          12. I was very moved about what you wrote Mommypino. Wish you all the best with the husband and your trip to your mum.

        2. MommyPino
          Your comment to Whitney on Sex and The Narcissist was a red flag to me. Although I am american, your husband’s behaviour (pushing the back of your head and hitting you with pillows) and his response (you are too sensitive) is unacceptable and the only person who tried to control what I could, and could not say, was my MMRN, also your husband deleted his FB because his daughter’s never had pictures of him on their FB. That comes across as petty and childish. He is very narcissistic.

          1. Good warning/observations, K. The only person who ever did similar things to me was my exL. He even used to unfriend me on FB repeatedly when he was angry at me. Finally, I did not allow him to refriend me. Now he has me blocked after attacking me on his cousin’s FB page. That was good because it allowed his whole family to see what he is really like. MRN was much more subtle – never violent or petty. I didn’t see MPs post but I would guess that her husband is a Lesser.

          2. SMH
            There are a lot of red flags and I was very surprised when I read the comment on the SATN thread. In my experience, that is something only a narcissist would do in a marriage/relationship scenario. Definitely lesser behavior, think: Three Stooges. Even rough housing with his children like that is not “the norm”. My normals and empaths do not behave like that at all with their partners or children.

            It displays: belittling, contempt, sense of superiority, entitlement (I can hit you whenever I want), objectification, lack of boundaries/respect and accountability, gaslighting (you are too sensitive). She asserted control and told him to stop and HE took offense, which demonstrates a complete lack of empathy, and could be construed as challenge fuel.

            After I read that comment, a giant red flag went up.

            https://narcsite.com/2019/05/18/sex-and-the-narcissist-26/

            His daughters are Narcissists so of course they are going to post pics of their mother and her recent marriage on social media, even normal people do that to, however, in this case it’s triangulation, so rather than recognize that his daughters are disordered and their behaviour is completely normal, he gets mad and deletes his FB. That speaks volumes.

          3. K, I just read the comments. It seems that because they are from different cultures, MommyPino might take as cultural differences things that are red flags to us. Add to that, not knowing about narcissism! That was a problem with my exL – different cultural backgrounds and I did not know anything about narcissism back then. I thought his problems were situational and he could fix them but of course he could not. I ignored tons of red flags (same with MRN), including exL’s personal history. I hope MommyPino keeps her eyes opened now.

          4. SMH
            My father was in the USN (United States Navy) and his favorite IPSSs were in the Philippines. He told me that he liked Filipino women better than american women because they were lady-like, gentle and polite (read: compliant).

            American Women
            “American woman, stay away from me
            American woman, mama let me be
            Don?t come hangin? around my door
            I don?t wanna see your face no more”

          5. K, Yes, I have heard that before (both the song and the preference). MommyPino seems pretty feisty, however!

          6. SMH
            I think my father was triangulating Filipino women with American women.

            When my MMRN tried to stop me from using the word: Patina, in a negative way, I would use it like this.

            A patina of city grime is all over my car.
            A patina of dust is all over the board games.
            A patina of hopelessness has descended upon me.

            That was the Patina Battle; it went on for six years.

            Once, he told me to stop saying: Tape cassette, so I opened my big yap and said: tape cassette 15x in a row, then I paused and said: tape cassette another 15x. If he told me I couldn’t say: HG Tudor, I would talk about HG tudor all the fucking time.

          7. lol, K. Patina Battle. Did he really tell you not to use certain words or phrases? How did you put up with that?

          8. SMH
            Ha ha ha…yes, he did. Once, I was telling the children about President Jimmy Carter’s efforts to eradicate the guinea worm and my MMRN told me not to talk about guinea worms so I looked at him and said: I will talk about guinea worms whenever and wherever I like. He left the house (withdrawal), bye Felicia!

            When he would try to control what I said, I would just calmly repeat the word or phrase over and over again. I did it with ALL of my narcissists.

            My mother told me not to call my sister a skanky-drug-addicted-whore so I would go into broken record mode and say: she’s a skank-whore, a skanky-cunty-whore, drug-addicted-ho-bag-skank, drug-dealing-fucking-skank-cunt over and over again. Ha ha ha…it was great; I am full of challenge fuel. My narcissists were lucky to have me!

            It’s very clear that there are control issues going on.

          9. K, I like that our librarian is spunky and has a potty mouth when necessary. I couldn’t have talked that way to my mother and she wasn’t a narc! I’d have been rinsing suds out of my mouth for days!

          10. MB
            Ha ha ha….it’s fabulous; I projectile vomit hate and vitriol like Linda Blair from the Exorcist. It’s hardwired into me and I consider it an asset. That is my normal and I wasn’t aware of it until I came here. I amuse myself.

            My mother is a lower lesser narcissist and we do not get along very well.

          11. Just a few control issues, K. I have them too, as well as oodles of challenge fuel – my narcs enjoy that too – gives them a good laugh.

            Right now I am on work narc’s case beca