A Letter to the Narcissist – No. 40



Hello Dear, you were one of my best friends in high school although we never hooked up back then I always respected and cared about you but never imagined I could  love you not like this anyway.

I looked past your flaws, imperfections and shortcomings and seen a man that could accomplish anything. I thought I knew you. Never in a million years would I have predicted we would start seeing each other 30 years after high school.  None the less I was so happy with you, just being in the same room with you was enough but when you held me it was heaven.

It just felt so right, I felt safe and thought I finally fit in somewhere. I felt complete, everything just made sense.

Then they came along a string of crack whores young and old. I pleaded with you to stop but it’s like I was encouraging  you. You refused, not caring about me just taking me for granted. I cant believe I put up with it as long as I did. I didn’t want to lose you because honestly I don’t know what or how to live without you. I still don’t. from the very beginning you knew you didn’t love me, your intentions were evil and wicked.

Little by little you stripped everything from me. first my friends, I lost my friends the moment I decided to date you. Then my family, my finances, my children, my vehicles, jewelry, anything I owned that was nice or name brand, my credit, my job and possibly my house.

You did not stop there you set me up so I am currently tangled in court , my dignity , my privacy,  my karma I even lost the sparkle in my eye. You call me names and make me out to be this really bad person. Everything you call me or accuse me of is what you are. Yet I defend you, for what? So you can drive her around in my car taking her out to eat, giving her money,  buying her gifts making sure her bills are paid. While I am at work with no money, no cigarettes, no groceries in the home, sometimes no electricity or  running water.

Let’s not forget the kicks in the stomach with your size 13 foot, 3 in a row and not one tear. The 8 stiches on my busted lip, the ladies in the car behind us called the police because I jumped out while the car was still moving.  Remember what you said to me when the blood was gushing. You are bleeding all over everything, you are doing it on purpose. SWALLOW THAT BLOOD! But yet I still defended you, I told the police I hit my mouth on the dash when you hit the brake. You promised you would never hit me again. You lied! This time I did not even get an apology, not even a fake one, you just denied it ever happened but I had bruises everywhere.

Every time you hit me was for the same reason one bitch or another you know the ones I make up in my psychotic mind out of thin air. Some how they manage to call and text you and I eventually knock on their front door to confront them.  My psychotic mind must be pretty powerful. How could I be so dumb? No wonder everyone is so frustrated with me.

No more! I am tired of being used and this is where I draw the line. I now know what EVIL looks like, it looks just like you. You pretend to like and care about me to my face but the moment my back is turned you are working on some sort of plan to destroy or sabotage me. You literally want to cause me harm, you want to crush and destroy me. I would not doubt if you’re goal is to see me dead. God only knows.I left a lot of things out of this letter just because I cant even begin to explain it without sounding crazy. For example the video taping and recording me, the skits that you manage to get people to act out like they are real life. The people you have following me where ever I go. The times you drugged my soda or laced my cigarettes, hacked my phone, the gas lighting. Planting drugs on me when you thought I was going to call the police. Getting my son arrested, the many times you left me stranded without my phone or purse. Lets not forget all the games, you know the ones I don’t know I’m playing until its over and you manage to look like the hero when in fact you are the villain and I am made out to look like a crazy or bad person. All the mind Fucks made my brain hurt. You never contributed to the household, did not pay any bills, buy groceries or pay rent. Heck you would take my car and debit card in the middle of the night to the casino while I slept leaving your phone behind so I could not contact you. You did all theses things while making me feel like I’m not good enough,  Could you believe I am still not positive that you are really a narcissist. Remember the day you were taking a nap, I seen you asleep and just starting swinging at you I told you I can’t believe you did this to me, then took off running to my car. You sent me a text that said “How dare you hit me you stupid thing, just wait til you get home”. That statement should have confirmed it.  I guess I do not know you do I. How could I when you don’t even know who you are, you are just a fake nothing that always wants to be first. I do not know how long it will take for me to get over these past 6 years but I know I will. By the way, I do not owe you a damn thing, on the contrary you owe me so much. Don’t think you got away with all the shit you did to me because you haven’t. You will eventually pay you see my dear you reap what you sow. If you sow evil you will reap evil. 



  1. Oracle : Thank you so much for your reply. I am so so so sorry to hear you lost your children!!! Is there no hope to get them back? Are they okay where they are? Yes, you’re right, I am a truth seeker, and FM1T is also right, no need to apologise – I understand and accept that my comment was somewhat “off” or it would not have rubbed several people the wrong way. I’m glad my response made sense to you. You don’t sound like a narc to me and if HG says you’re not you’re definitely not.

    You asked some questions, I hope these answers read better!

    “When you say idolize. you mean HG?” yes, I appreciate his work tremendously too – I also know it’s life saving for many. I don’t like the “exclusive club” mentality that I sense here though, the mentality that we’re special (for having the qualities a narcissist is attracted to) because those very qualities often are in the way of being able to care well for our children. We may be the better (more reliable) parent than the narc. But when we dance with the narc we stop being good parents. We raise children with relationship problems. Children who don’t have a healthy sense of self worth. Not necessarily but it’s likely. It depends on how long it goes on for, and who else is around.

    “Please elaborate on the ACON and our motherhood? I am sorry. i will be honest. i don’t understand either word. the one before motherhood and ACON.”

    ACON is short for Adult Child of a Narcissist. Many people here have narc and co-dependent parents. Me too – my mother was a narc. I turned out co-dependent (not sure if that would be HG’s label for me as well but I think so) , one of my two brothers borderline, the other narc, and I only worked out he is a narc recently because his facade management is superb …

    With my comment I meant to say that many of us here recognise their parents as narcs and talk a lot about concrete incidents they experienced as children. But we don’t discuss how we damage our kids – not just the narcs – by dancing with them. That’s what I meant with “enmeshed motherhood”. Our motherhood becomes narcy because we have to feed our addiction to the narc. I always thought my kids came first but I didn’t realise it was serving my addiction to their narc dad when I was making my excuses. I made those excuses —for his behaviour and my own. Not the narc. It was not the narc who manipulated me to make them. I manipulated myself. I wrote about some of the things I did underneath the poll about the full horror moment.

    I am not judging anybody – I have also stopped doing myself down for what I did. I’m grateful for having woken up.

    Oracle – your kids are not with the narc, are they?

  2. I know I am late to the party, but I had a co-worker who was involved with a Lesser Narc who was also a felon. Apparently he beat her up (I recall her coming into work with a black eye at one point and in another situation she had a patch over her eye).

    She was evasive and made some excuse for it.

    Yet when it came to reporting him to the police, she refused to do it, knowing that if he was arrested he’d likely spend the next 30 yrs in jail. (I don’t know all the details, but he was on probation or something. I heard about this after she got fired.)

    She was a total codependent and felt a loyalty to him. She also pushed away those trying to help her, as she felt they had an ‘agenda’.

    She ended up losing her job due to having been arrested on account of drug possession, which was likely not even hears (holding it for someone, in other words.)

    Just no boundaries and allowing scummy people to control her life, cause her to be late for work, etc. She was always doing favors for them, but I came to learn she did this out of building a ‘security’. (Better to have them on my side than not!)

    She was very unreliable at work and constantly having meltdowns yet still refused to cut these people from her life.

    It shows how strong emotional thinking can go. I too am guilty of excuse making and trying to downplay bad behaviours and manipulations.

    It’s just unfortunate that she didn’t feel like she had options. I also think that the ‘good sources’ in her life she rejected because she felt they ‘looked down on her’ which is why she felt a loyalty to loser friends and this felon guy.

  3. I know I’m late to the Breaking Bad discussion but my boy Jesse isn’t a Narc. He consistently sympthaizes with and acts in the best interest of children. Remember how he makes food for the son of the methhead couple when he was left alone and later takes him outside to wait for the police so he doesn’t find his father dead? And he is devastated again when his girlfriends son is sick in the hospital (after Walt poisoned him). And he tries to quit the whole business when a kid is accidentally shot during the methyl amine heist. He’s not that smart and he’s a criminal but he has a conscience.

  4. Ladies I see that Q made a very narrow minded observation but please stop the she is possibly a narc talk
    It actually hurts me to see this happening
    Q made an observation based on hervreality. maybe physical abuse is a trigger that angers her and she lashed out.
    We do not know and should not judge her either.
    I understand why there is such reaction over the idiot word but please if we can’t support each other as empaths.


  5. HG has said in the past that we get the occasional narc on here that doesn’t know what they are…just saying…

    1. Blackunicorn
      I remember one other time that I have commented to Q. I don’t remember what it was about and although she had a different opinion then I did, I found her view point interesting. Today she was rude, arrogant, and judgmental, very narc like!

      1. Q posted something on another thread about relationships being ‘transactional.’ Just a cold person.

      2. foolme1time: This is the comment I think. It almost lit the blue touch paper: [ I am an Introspective with strong narcissistic traits. Your site, as well as Vaknin’s has helped me tremendously in understanding what I am, what my family is and how to proceed with my life in the future. It’s been a great resource and I have to add one of my guilty pleasures is to read the comments and to follow, in time, some of the commenters and see how their story unfolds. It’s really a show of its own. I do pitty empaths and codependents because my mother was one and lived a most unhappy life. I still feel sorry for her, it;s been a useless life, shou would have benefit of your site a lot…
        Many commenters remind me of her. I feel sorry for them, too. Especially those who keep talking about putting their faith in love, in being warm and kind and compassionate in their future lives aka they are waiting for the next narcissist to make them unhappy. It beats me how they can do it.
        To add to the list you made, I suggest the cathegory of victims who are sure they were victims precisely because they are good, warm and caring. they list what they did for their narcissist and are hurt because the narcissist did not honour their care and warmth and compassion. Not once they say they are sorry for being so easy giving of themselves. Not once do they question themselves as to why they accepted so little for the so much they had offered. These are people who fail to see how flawed they are and how little they value themselves. They see value in their weakness and they chose to see their weakness and naivete as a quality and keep lamenting of how they were wronged. It beats me how they do it, this is somehow very narcissistic but at 180 degrees. ] ~~Q

        1. PSE
          Yes, that is the comment I was referring too. Thank you PSE for the time you took to look it up, that was very kind of you to do. 🥰🙃

          1. Oracle and others who were pissed off with my comment : Sorry I have not replied sooner – I have only read your responses now.I am battling addiction to the blog atm and thus only dip in infrequently so as not too make it too bad. I kind of think / hope there must have been a misunderstanding – and I am truly sorry I angered you. I am also truly sorry to hear what happened to you, Oracle.

            Me having blinkers on : I certainly did and used to and they have long come off. I have also questioned myself thoroughly if I am the narc. Wasn’t even sure that I am not, even when HG wrote I wasn’t. But then I know I care – a lot – so I probably am not. At the same time that doesn’t mean I don’t make mistakes.

            Is it projection if I get annoyed by people whom I perceive to have blinkers on? It is confusing – perhaps I am. My argument was just – or meant to be – that I wish to take on responsibility for my various entanglements. I too chose those guys not only they me. I am not defending the abuse or the abuser whatsoever. But I myself chose to let a (verbal, emotional) abuser into my life – repeatedly, one of them always on the brink of physical violence. This also means – and it causes me pain I can hardly bear – that I allowed my children to be abused (yelling, swearing, smashed toys, alcoholism….) That I had no means to stop it then, fine, but I was the adult who let it happen so I was part of it. I wish there was more discussion on this here – if there was during the time I have been on the blog I missed it.

            I don’t think it’s a narc trait alone to pass judgement – if that is how it came across it wasn’t meant to. If I am the narc so be it but I’m here to learn like everyone else. When I first came to this blog I was also labelled a narc (almost – not quite ) after I criticised a position – this was also about motherhood. I was hurt by it but not anymore. I try to learn as much as I can – to perform the miracle of becoming self – aware should I be a midrange-matrinarc. I am OK with the term co-narcissist as opposed to empath, because that’s what I was, a narcissist’s partner, and repeatedly so.

            To this day – please forgive me if I write this – I find that there are, at times sect-like cadences on this blog and I honestly don’t like them. Even if I myself cherish HGs work. I react to those and perhaps HG knows why since not many other readers seem to. Or are they just keeping quiet?

            Somewhere else, in response to PD I wrote that I understand the empathic need to idolise whomever we appreciate. But the idolization gets too much here for me sometimes. I know it’s my problem and only mine and I can stay away from such spaces and I do.

            When I defended Q – and I would again – it is the point she makes that there is an implicit celebration of the weakness to fall for narcs on these pages. You may see it differently but it’s my perspective. I too am the child of a very abusive mother and a father who let it happen. I appreciate my father was there but he also failed to protect me. I see the ACON comments here but where is the engagement with our own enmeshed motherhood. If I have missed it please direct me to the pages because I am craving a discussion on this. I was hoping to find people to engage with on the admittedly very tricky subject when I raised it not get the narc stigma – which means ‘you’re not one of us’ – see what I mean?

            So, once again, this is an apology for hurting you, an explanation for my comment which I admit sounds a bit angry, and hopefully it’s the start of a happier exchange . If I left anything out you want me to respond to let me know – but I might need a few days to drop by again…

            All the very best,

          2. LC
            I understood your comment (and Q’s) and your right to make it. It raises an issue I think about often. I have been on both sides of the fence (as have many here) and find a very fine line between what people are able to accept as some responsibility for their own actions vs blame. It may be due to where some are in their healing, in large part emotional thinking, the flexing of the vocal chords silenced for so long, and often in the way that it is presented to how it is received. I have been accused also of blaming the victim where that is not my belief or intent, and also of glorifying the narcissist. I think it’s important to raise different perspectives and observations when it is placed for discussion and reasoning is provided (vs just an all out attack with no foundation that we sometimes (gratefully seldom) see here). What I see someone else may not, but that does not change the fact that I do, or open myself and others up to examine if it is never voiced. I don’t believe a hive mentality is healthy. I often think: If only we would exercise a fraction of the tolerance with each other that was continually afforded our abuser.

          3. I agree. It is the abusers fault,

            but _after_ having read about lieutenants, if we continue gushing over that “boss”, or successful ex narc, etc
            we know the consequence:

            We become lieutenants who help abusing and smearing other empaths.

            And that’s our own fault.

          4. NA, I understand what you are saying. I think what causes people to feel frustration and leap to judgement, rather than feel compassion for CoD behavior, is due to a lack of knowledge on the subject (and likely the suffering of abuse in the presence of their CoD parent).

            CoDs lack a sense of self love, self esteem and self worth. As a result, they attempt to find their happiness/sense of self through another. They place responsibility in the hands of others. The coping mechanism of CoD removes any sense of personal agency because their life and well being is tied up in pleasing/accommodating another whom they cannot control. CoDs react to external cues of their CoD partner versus their internal cues or cues from those outside their construct (like their children or friends or therapists).

            One might also argue that Ns and addicts are CoD also. Their lives revolve around their coping mechanism (fuel seeking through another, or relief from coping through alcohol/drugs/etc.). Denial is present in all of these, yet it is so deep and entwined with their survival construct, it is not a conscious choice, it is a far deeper part of how they relate to the world (not logically, but instinctively).

            The problem is not a willful act of placing blinders on and refusal to be aware. The problem lies in a total lack of comprehension that one cannot find any happiness/long-term satisfaction/sense of self through another (person or thing; or from fuel or substances) ever. Real happiness and deep satisfaction is an internal process that springs from genuine self love and self worth.

            Therefore, any attack on, or shaming/blaming of a CoD would not only NOT assist in “waking” the CoD to a new realization, it would add fuel to the fire of their own self loathing or lack of self esteem. Because they are sensitive, they also experience any criticism more painfully. Empathy and education is always a better course of action. CoDs can improve and heal if they are willing and motivated. They must be self motivated to change.

            I am a huge believer in personal responsibility. I also am fortunate to possess a healthy sense of self love. If both of these were removed, I would be at the mercy of others. I am deeply grateful I am not.

            NA, you know I respect all you have overcome and I appreciate you and your comments. I offer this comment as a way of adding to or clarifying the subject of CoD behavior. I hope I did a fair job. I also have respect for CoDs that learn to love themselves and find their voice. I am here to learn and give back, so I welcome all views in reply to this comment.

          5. FYC
            As you said coping and living as a CoD ( when you finally find out that is what you are) is a battle! It’s a battle going on within yourself constantly, it has been one of my many survival techniques for years and you are correct when you say it is instinctual. I have found myself learning to overcome this, however there are times when it kicks in and I do not even realize what I’m doing. I also believe the situations that have caused this in me started in childhood from abuse. But what I find amazing is how many people throughout my life missed all of these signs, Doctors, Teachers, Counselors, and even Therapist over the years didn’t pick up on it, however one consult with HG three years ago and he nailed it within the first fifteen minutes! It wasn’t confirmed until earlier this year when I had the empath consult, I knew however what the results would be and I believe ( even though he never said so ) HG did also. This blog and people like, you, NA, and HG have made a huge difference in my life, I learn from people like you and NA who have different views and prospective and can comment back and forth to each other intelligently. Learning to love and respect yourself after years of abuse both mental and physical is tough to do, sometimes putting yourself and your needs before other’s is even tougher, but because of this very special and safe place that HG has created, I am able to do that very thing. Thank you all very much! 😘🙃

          6. NA: Thank you. It’s very much appreciated.

            FYC: perhaps I should have added: I have not taken the empath detector test, I might eventually out of curiosity – I don’t know if it has the category “dry co-dependent”. I know how life is as a co-dependent from inside out. I think there is an article where HG explains that co-dependency and narcissism are close. The dividing line is the ability to care. Other care is huge in co-dependents, (emotional) self care small. However when emotional self care is low you CANNOT care well for your own children emotionally. You simply can’t understand the emotional needs (all of them or a sufficient amount of them) because they conflict with your need to feed your addiction. And you feed on the children too.

            I don’t mind if you think I’m not educated well enough on the subject, it’s your perspective – I have read the blog articles, not all of the books (yet) but several and, what’s more, I have been seeking treatment with a competent and formidable analyst for almost 5 years now, at the beginning this was 4x week now 3x. I am lucky enough that the country I live in has a health insurance that covers part of my cost-well it did in part for 2 of those years, for the rest I sold my car, left out expensive holidays etc . I don’t see this as a contest on who is more knowledgeable and self-aware. HG does not have so much info on CoD&motherhood – which is understandable (unless I have missed it!) .

            Denial about what we do to our children must go on for a long time because it is almost too much to bear when we realise what we did do. I am not sure if many of the matrinarcs identified by readers are perhaps co-dependents or would themselves be identified as matrinarcs by their own children (its an open question for me).

            My young adult children both think they have a better relationship to their narc/alcohlic dad because he makes things easy for them – whereas I confront my daughter’s grandiosity or my son’s occasional boundary crossing. For them that feels like wounding criticism – and I need all the help I have, mostly to stop the route to codepency and grandiosity. I will see if I am successful. My analyst stops me from swanning off into pink clouds. She also helps me not to lose faith in my ability to influence the dynamic. There is no guarantee but there is hope.

            I actually CARE whereas their father SAYS he does – I know now that caring is also confronting – and I do nothing else here sometimes. My therapist says my children will feel the difference eventually even if they don’t now.

            FYC you say you have enough self love and I am happy that you do. As opposed to you I know how it is to possess none whatsoever. I have been there. And I do not shame and blame anyone who does not. I know however how central it is for a co-dependent’s recovery to take on responsibility for their past actions. To become conscious means to take on responsibility.

            It also involves compassion for anyone who wants to shake up co-dependents a bit.

            Don’t you want to shake up the narc until you realise there’s no point?

            With co-dependents actually there is a point. Ask me about it if you want to know.

            One more point I want to make in response to your criticism of my comment: I think the empath detector thing HG does makes huge sense. My feeling is that there are quite a number of deluded co-dependents here thinking they are super or else (“my narc a greater”). And this is not passing judgement. I’m not entirely sure yet if I buy HGs empath classification (the jury is out on that) – I kind of think he might revise it at some point because he has had so much more contact and insight since he first devised it, after having done the consults etc. As he is top in his field he will revise certain aspects – because this is what top experts do or they would not be top.

            Would be interesting to see a meta-piece on how his own thinking evolved and still evolves.

            Another hunch I have is that he might be working with the various self-images ‘victims’ have to draw them to deeper insight. This is what good therapists do. (meaning the classification might be based on self image – and we know that self and other image clash in those who are involved in narcissistic relationships).

            All best,

          7. Dear FM1T, I am so happy you found HG. I see your progress in your comments and it is wonderful, impressive and heart warming. Change is not easy for anyone, but even more so for those who were abused in childhood because there is no safe base to spring from or return to unless we build it brick by brick on our own.

            I just reread my comment and want to qualify the part where I used the term “total lack of comprehension” because what I meant was resident understanding and acceptance that happiness/fulfillment and sense of self cannot be gained by or through another. I apologize sincerely if this came across in the wrong way, it was not at all my intent. I struggled to explain what I have come to understand thus far. I have read a great amount of information on CoD as I have familial and friend CoDs that I want to better understand. Of course I will never fully understand to the degree you do, but I feel a great deal of empathy for you and protective of you when people lash out in the belief that you had a choice and simply did not make it. I hope I did right by you and NA. Both of you are/were affected by Ns and CoD (as was I) in one way or another. I stand with you both.

            I admire those who find the strength to overcome. That includes HG, NA and FM1T among many others. I learn from all of you and appreciate you all so much. If you have found value in my comments, I am grateful, and you are always most welcome.😘

          8. FYC
            You have no to need to apologize! You are one that always will look at both sides, we is unusual in its self and just another verification of how amazing you truly are. I cannot speak for NA but you always do right by me. As far as myself being happy that I found HG, most of the time this is correct except when he starts pulling on my pigtails! Big brothers can be such a pain in the bum sometimes and he is no exception! 🤣🙃

          9. Thank you, FM1T. I am glad you feel that way. I had to laugh about HG being a big brother and pulling your pigtails. I think it’s all in affectionate teasing and you handle it with good humor!

          10. Pfffft. I have no other choice! If he would be close enough, I would kick him in the shins and run!! 🤣🙃

          11. FM1T, That might not be such a great idea…seems HG’s bad side is no laughing matter and to be avoided! Besides, escalation yields no good things anyway.

          12. FYC
            I actually think it would be funnier then hell for the people watching him running after me! 🤣🤣🤣🙃 😘

          13. FM1T, Given what HG has written, he would not run after anyone. That would be out of character. He would mastermind a plan of attack and lie in wait to get even when least expected.

          14. Lc, I hope this threads correctly. apologies if it did not foolmetime.
            Thank you for your response. it was what I hoped for. I do not think you are a narc. maybe i am . who knows. hg says no and I trust that. I thought that you were angry and frustrated. I felt you just needed a nudge to remember we are in this together. I also needed to hear what you had to say as well. I need to hold myself responsible for the part i play in this mess I got myself into. I felt you were a truth seeker like me. I thought that you would respond. I thought that you would reflect and you did. I also felt i would need to reflect when I received your response and i have, we have a lot we can teach each other.
            You are absolutely right about the kids. They are no living with me anymore. I lost them to this relationship. I am very ashamed of that fact. I need to think about that while i am feeling sorry for myself. yes. your right on that for sure. No one deserves abuse, however, my kids should have come first. I messed up.
            No your right just passing judgement is not a narc trait. I guess i wanted to say lets keep each other honest. keep one another from dropping into behaviors we learned from the narc. grant it some of i can be good, but not if it hurts.
            When you say idolize. you mean HG?
            Please elaborate on the ACON and our motherhood? I am sorry. i will be honest. i don’t understand either word. the one before motherhood and ACON. I have a fun head injury that causes issue with cognitive process at times. i am suddenly having one of those moments. i understood everything until there. and would like to understand.

          15. Oracle there is no need to apologize, I think everyone has had at least one time that there comment has gone to the wrong person. 🙃😊

        2. I don‘t fInd this comment cold at all…She feels sorry for people who refuse to see their own part in the dynamic. I too see a number of people who have blinkers on as regards themselves, I feel sorry for them too and I especially pity their children if they have any. Perhaps it was an unfortunate turn of phrase to say she has a ‚guilty pleasure‘ reading from these commenters, but she is being very honest, and again, not cold. To me it reads as if she wants to shake people a little, wake them up.

          I too find this ‚oo we‘re ever so kind empaths‘ babble unhelpful, it annoys me too but I have got used to it. I just scroll past the names I know will get on my nerves. Ultimately it is a choice to see your own part in the dynamic and seeing it means you‘re ready to change.

          When I wrote something like this before there was outrage along the lines of ‚Nooooooo HG confirmed I was targeted and I could not do anything about that‘ …. yeah right. He also says targets are chosen for a reason.

          I don‘t care much if people choose (!) to stay oblivious to their own destructive behaviour as regards themselves, but what gets to me is when they are like that and have kids. I agree with Q it‘s narcissistic to a degree, and it‘s easy to blame everything on the narc. You LET yourselves be entangled for whatever reason. Certainly not because you‘re kind people. But because you needed something from the relationship. That doesn’t mean you can’t be kind. But it’s not kindness narcs are after but emotional neediness.

          So many people here spew abuse about their narc exes. They are welcome to it but these were guys whom they wanted – most of these guys didn’t even want to go into devaluation consciously.. And now they are like failed appliances. Why not say: I made a huge mistake when I didn’t leave him when things got nasty – and move on by understanding why you didn’t? By learning not only about narcissism but also by taking on some of the responsibility for what happened?

          I do know that insight comes in stages though. If I am breaking a lance for Q here it is because I have sympathy for her position which seems honest, not manipulative and very self-aware.

          1. LC, It’s one thing to skip over some of the comments (I do too) but it’s another to insult the people who make them, including the letter writers. We are here to learn, not to change each other or to punish each other more. It is not all about bashing the narc for any of us. It is also a process of self-discovery. Q is not reading the room.

          2. LC, I see a common thread among most of us to be truth seekers. I wonder where the line is between truth seeking, and being more on the narcissistic end of things and being judgemental? Is it not one of the narc traits to point out someone else and their faults meanwhile insisting that the accuser is innocent of such acts? I may be reading it wrong, but I see a paradox. In one moment expressing how the “ever so kind” empaths have blinders on. I find it hard to believe any of us are not guilty of having blinders on. You are pointing out what you dislike in yourself my friend. Don’t you recognize that, or are you wearing blinders? Do you not see the paradox here? What blows my mind is you defending the abuser. You might have well said “the poor abuser didn’t really want to go into the devaluation”, because that is really how it comes across. Meanwhile your bashing the victim. I will be frank with you. It pisses me the $uck off. Do you really think your that woke?
            From my perspective you need to wake up. I am just floored. Here is why I am so angry. while you sit there passing judgment on the “kind” empath for their part in the dynamic we are getting the snot kicked out of us. We reach out for help and try to take action only receive ridicule, and snide remarks. .just 2 weeks ago, i stood in a hotel lobby covered in my own blood. I called the authorities and reported it, and they took me to the hotel. I stood there in that lobby covered in blood shaking, while people laughed and made snide remarks because i was so dirty from being drug by my hair on the ground. I was so $ucking humiliated. When I got to the desk the room had not been reserved like the officer said it would be. The remarks got worse, which included the front desk clerk. I was in that lobby for almost 2 hours and was reduced to tears. I finally gave up and returned home. I took action, I left, I asked for help, I utilize the resources. The universe answered with “YOU ARE NO ONE! YOU DON’T MATTER! FORGET ABOUT!” No one asked me if I was okay as my face swelled. They only cared about what I told the police. I feel so hopeless. I feel like i am going to die here trapped like this. Yes gosh dangit, I know I got myself here. How the heck would I not know that!?

            My apologies for my outburst, but I am not deleting it. I am asking you to listen to yourself. You do not know everything. Try keeping your side of the street clean and hold your judgement. Helping others and giving back what you have learned might be healing for you. You can’t do that sitting around avoiding someone because you think your so self aware, and know they are the problem and not the narc. I know i am the problem. Just because your stronger than me, doesn’t mean I don’t deserve to escape or to be loved by someone. Do not mistake my kindness for being an idiot. I don’t agree that an empath blames everything on the Narc. Now a narc that doesn’t know what they are might. I know mine does. He beat the crap out of me and then guilted me about it. I was expected to feel bad that he was forced to kick the snot out of me! We are not the enemy to one another. I can’t believe your behaving as if being kind is worse than being a narc. Let’s help each other, not cut each other down. Okay, Mr. Trudor you may not post this. If I am out of line I know you will tell me, but I think I have every right to my opinion, just as LC does. LC launch back at me. It is fine, we need to be honest with each other. Don’t we?

          3. Hi Oracle, I have just read this comment today. I just want to send my love to you and I’m so sorry that you endured that. I wish that I or any of us here were there with you. Actually I wish that the violence never happened to you. You are a precious person and nobody had any right to treat you without dignity. You are amazingly valuable. Nobody had a right to do that to you. I’m so sorry again that you experienced the lowest level of behaviors from humans. You are so strong to have survived all of that. I wish you the best and more power. ❤️

          4. Mommy pino
            I am okay. thank you so much for checking on me though. You remind me so much of me. when I read your words they echo my own. Anyway, I am doing better. That day I nearly gave up on life all together, but now I am taking hold of things again. I got angry, and used that anger, and i am building something out of it. I have new friends that are helping me and believe in my vision and what i can do. In a way, that happening to me, made me turn the corner. For the 1st time in a very long time, i feel like i have hope.
            Thank you again. i am doing well i hope this finds you well too.

          5. Thank you Oracle. I can also relate very much with the way you express yourself and your words and stories resonates with me. I am so thankful that you didn’t give up on life. I’m very happy that you found good friends to support you and believe in you and be there for you and witness you turn the corner and get your strength and power back. Thank you as well. I am mostly well now although I have just lost my mom whom I love very much. I am so thankful that I got to be with her in her last moments. I am mostly grateful for many things but I have a lot of thoughts in my head. I actually have a big headache right now as I write. I’m just fortunate to have my relatives support me and accept her for who she was. I just visited the blog to maybe distract me a little bit. But I am totally fine except for the massive headache. Love to you Oracle. 💕

          6. MommyP
            I’m sorry to hear that you have lost your mom. Regardless your struggles with her, she was your mother and you loved her. Be kind to yourself.

          7. Thank you NA. I may have been snappy at you in a different thread. I probably misinterpreted your joke. I apologize for the snappiness.

          8. mommypino
            I am so sorry. It is very difficult to lose a parent, even a narcissistic one and you loved her, too. Please take care and I am very happy to read that you have relatives that are there for you and they accepted her as she was.

          9. My pleasure MommyPino
            Take care of yourself and you are in my thoughts as usual. We had similar mothers so I think about you often.

          10. Thank you K! ❤️ I often think of you as well and it does feel wonderful to find someone who shared the same crazy experiences that I had which I used to think nobody else experienced or can understand. It’s cathartic here at the funeral. In our country, the funeral lasts for 6 – 9 days (I’m not sure if it’s the same in the US. During that period people visit to see the dead and talk about the person. It feels cathartic for everyone to share their crazy experiences with her. Everyone are just laughing and putting all of the pieces of puzzles together. I told them about her NPD also. They all seemed to have found closure and understanding as we talked about our experiences with her. They all said that they care about her in spite of the things that she did. A lot of the stories are so outrageous and funny. Especially when she made most of us act as her lieutenants to do evil deeds for her when we were just children. We just now laugh at all of it and it seems that they feel good that we all understand each other and understand her as well. The knowledge that I learned from this blog did help me in handling all of this.

          11. My pleasure MommyPino!
            Honestly, only people who have had a narcissistic parent can truly understand the experience.

            Wakes/Funerals are usually a two day affair in the northeast. I am so happy that you and your family are together, sharing the memories of your mother and laughing while putting the pieces together. Understanding and sharing your knowledge of NPD will give you and your extended family closure. Some NPD stories can be very funny and entertaining. Enjoy the rest of your time there.

          12. i am concerned about your headache. Let me know your doing okay. i am sorry about mom. I felt the same about my mother when I lost her. Let me know if i can do anything

          13. Thank you Oracle. I’m so much better now. So many relatives were with me to help me process the pain and they are so amazingly supportive of me.

            Thank you and love to you!. ❤️❤️❤️

          14. Dear MommyPino, Just stopping by to say I am sorry for the loss of your mother. I know you loved your mother but really no matter what your relationship was, it is very hard to go through the loss of a close family member. I am glad you were there for her and that you had so many relatives around you for support. xx

          15. Thank you SMH. I’m so glad that I was there too. I’m so thankful that I was able to set aside the pain and was able to show up for her. Now that she’s gone I realize how much I really love her. My heart is crying and angry that she had a disorder. I can relate when people say that they hate cancer after having a loved one die from it. I can say I hate NPD because it robbed my mom of having a loving and fulfilling life. I was really golden to her although she had been very cruel to me as well. I know that she had her own disordered version of love for me and she did her best to parent me despite lacking so many tools that a person needs to be a good parent. But I know that she gave everything that she had.

          16. MP, That is very generous of you and good for me personally to see as I hope I can get to that point with my Matrinarc too. Hugs.

          17. SMH, We have different experiences with our matrinarcs and there is no right or wrong reaction/course of action. We do what feels right and authentic for us. In my case, I was also her golden child and she really devoted so much of her time and effort on me. I can not erase those moments in my memory and so I did what felt right for me. I wish you healing and get to where you want to be in your relationship with her. It is difficult, I think no matter how bad our experiences are, we all somehow wish or crave for a good and normal relationship with them. Hugs and thank you. ❤️❤️❤️

          18. Thank you for your post Oracle, I’m very sorry that happened to you and I hope you are getting help. I’m sure what you write is true because I know reporting abuse is often pretty much ignored by law enforcement and I’ve seen emergency health workers and then lawyers be awful toward people who have been kicked in life, sometimes over and over again. And the way people get into those circumstances can be surprising, complicated, unexpected and very much misunderstood. There are helpful, empathetic, positive people who can be those professionals too, it just really sucks when you’re being hearded around and objectified and no one acknowledges your humanity, dignity and need for care.

            The biggest reason I agree with your comment is because a lack of empathy is DISTURBING. It is not a strength and it is not awake and in times like you are describing it isn’t even problem solving or solution oriented on a basic level. I would have asked you if you were Ok, Oracle. Some people fucking suck.

            The people you are describing- BLINDERS, not helpful, not able in an emergency to balance emotion and decision making, and I’ve seen empathic people do all at once and well. Impressive.
            So yeah, I agree, LC has blinders on because MOST of us talking here are aware bigger things are going on and are listening and talking, trouble shooting, because everyone IS making progress and finding their way through and out of patterned behavior WHILE being pummeled with LIFE AS IT HAPPENS (it doesn’t stop for convenience), so it doesn’t seem very clear sighted or intelligent to not see that. It is just basically incorrect. It is muddled narcissistic thinking. How can you say all that and not be aware that some people are in process from ten years ago and some people are in process from yesterday? And what’s the expectation, get through it overnight without a discussion? It has to be discussed. I rarely see a pity party on here, so why are we seeing two different things?
            Generally when their is an air of authority, know it all, condescension, “why don’t you just”, I assume narcissistic thought process at the least, everyone’s experiences and ways of handling are different. Two different people can go through wildly different things. Also, I walk around every day, as an actually decently, above average, self-aware thinking person and look at empaths, normals and narcs alike and the average person has no fucking clue what they are even thinking, so it’s pretty damned arrogant to think you’ve got it on lock. The awareness level here is definitely above average. Have you been to other blogs? This lack of respect for intelligent conversation screams “NAP TIME”.

          19. Oracle, First let me say that I am so sorry that in your moment of extreme need you were not met with emotional empathy, care and protection. You were treated horribly. I’m so sad and disturbed by the level of abuse you have endured and survived in life. I sincerely hope you have since found more supportive people and resources you can rely upon. Most of us on the blog are her for you and our hearts go out to you. We do not judge you.

            With regard to Q and LC, it is abundantly clear they have very different perceptional filters at work from most others here.

            Claiming pity, yet proceeding to blame shift abuse to the victim demonstrates a lack of empathy and understanding and a rush to judgment. Abusers are responsible for their actions. Full stop. Both narcissism and codependency are the result of abuse and are formed as a coping mechanism (coping means to survive or subsist—not gain control or have awareness). Their original abuse and LOCE obliterated their sense of choice. Anyone who asserts CoDs are waiting for the next narcissist to make them unhappy lacks any comprehension of the dynamics involved. Suggesting the abused is to blame for their abuse is not only false, but inflicts new abuse on the victim.

            To make excuses for such commentary and shaming and blaming the victims via terms such as ‘empaths’ babble’ and ‘spew’ and ‘choosing to stay oblivious’ and ‘let yourself be entangled’ demonstrates contempt and highlights a lack of understanding. To state Ns are “after emotional neediness” denotes another gaping hole in resident knowledge. Narcissists seek fuel (read Fuel and the prime aims), residual benefits and character traits. My understanding is that Ns loathe neediness. They seek emotional empathy as fuel and they are not observant of anyone’s personal boundaries due to their entitlement. HG has consistently stated that no matter how perfect a person is, devaluation will occur if for no other reason that fuel always becomes stale. No one seeks devaluation per se, unless it is the N’s desire to seek negative fuel. While the comments of Q and LC may be direct and possibly self-aware, they are entirely lacking in ‘other’ awareness.

            Several studies confirm few people are highly self aware. Even fewer people are willing, able and seek to undertake real change. We all have blind spots and need assistance to raise our awareness. HG’s blunt honesty strips away denial and his knowledge, understanding and methods support positive change. My hope is that future comments here would support this process as well.

          20. FYC,

            Thank-you for your reply to Oracle; it (as well Nunya Biz’s) restored my faith in humanity.

            And Oracle – you had every right to your ‘outburst’…I hope you are doing better ♥️
            I know that feeling; like your heart is going to burst or head is going to explode – unless you can get the words out in response to someone’s thick headedness. (And I’m so thankful for HG allowing this place to do that…and for allowing some of my past outbursts).
            But I also know that way of thinking…”Well, I may have allowed my type of abuse (whatever it was) but I would NEVER have allowed x, y, z (fill in the blanks) because of…(fill in the blank again.)
            It is so easy to judge another’s experience because we think we are ‘in the know’ now but it is important to remember how excellent abusers are at (instinctively or otherwise) about selecting a target who is particularly susceptible to allowing certain barriers and boundaries to breached. I used to say I wish that my abuser had done something so overt like physical abuse (no disrespect to recipients of physical abuse) that I could “recognize” it and then leave but no, my abuser, over time, used my sense of generosity and natural inclination to support those I care about in such a way that my most detrimental experience (other than emotional damage) was the damage to my finances (thankfully money – unlike people – can always be replaced).
            I’m all for listening and learning before judging…

          21. Hello WhoCares, No thanks necessary, it was a reflexive must. That said, you are welcome and always appreciated. I hope you are doing well in your new home or at least better each day. I wish you peace and happiness.

        1. Blackunicorn
          If you read the comment from Princess to me, she found another time Q and I commented with one another. If you read that comment, you will understand. I know people have bad days and vent, but she crossed the line when she started the judging and name calling.
          Don’t stay away so long BU, I like reading you comments. 🙃🌻

          1. Yes, I saw the comment after I’d posted, unfortunately.
            Thank you for asking me to comment more… I very rarely get chance to be on my own, and when I am, time is short and I can’t always catch up properly. And also, by the time I do get chance, people have already said what I want to say, lol! I will try though, I’m quite shy irl and it looks like I am online as well!!! 😂

  6. Getting There
    When I seen the black and white in comment my thoughts automatically went to HG and what he has taught us. Now with your comment back to me I don’t know the answers to your thoughts and questions. But I know who does. HG what is your thoughts on narcissists who physically abuse others, are there thoughts going on before, during, and after the abuse? Are they just seeing red? What about abusers that are not narcissists, do you have any knowledge on them, does there cognitive ability just shut down? I know you knowledge is on narcissism, but perhaps you have thoughts on those that are not narcissists and are abusers? Thank you for taking the time to read this.

    1. Hello, foolme1time.

      I understand what you were saying. When I am not concentrating on a specific narcissist, I tend to have my mind go in different directions based on something I see or hear. I’m sorry, I realize that it did take away from the point you were making.
      I think I would need to talk to multiple people who do it to truly understand. Thanks for being willing to help me with answers by asking HG!

      1. Getting There

        No need to apologize at all! My mind goes in different directions at the same time all of the time. 🤣
        Your questions were of interest to me and I did not know the answers either. Throwing it out there to HG doesn’t mean I expect him to answer, you can usually find the answers with out his help if you know what to look for, which I didn’t, or making sure there is enough information for the fabulous K to help out with!! Which she did! Just check the comments below yours and you will find HGs answers to your questions thanks to K!😘

    2. foolme1time

      JUNE 16, 2017 AT 19:56
      Physically harm a woman?

      HG Tudor
      JUNE 18, 2017 AT 12:22
      Never have done so, it is beneath me.


      There are no thoughts before, during or after. He is a machine and the only thing he wants is total and absolute control and violence is necessary to achieve this and the victim deserved it. He would then compartmentalize it. It never happened, irrespective of the bruises or broken bones.

      In my experience, all of the physically abusive people that I grew up with were all narcissists. Normals and empaths would only react violently in self-defence.

        1. My pleasure foolme1time!!!
          Physical and sexual violence are very, very difficult topics, almost too painful to discuss sometimes. The memories are horrific.

      1. Thank you, foolme1time!

        Thank you, K, for the information! Now I have other “whys” and “hows” rolling in my head based on this information. I once heard that a person should never try to tear down another’s defense mechanism unless they will be a strong support and around a lot. I think I am starting to truly understand that statement. Some defense mechanisms are truly powerful, and now wonder how much my role in each of my relationships were connected to a type of defense mechanism.

        1. My pleasure Getting There!
          When you think about it, we all have defence mechanisms to a certain degree and it does compel us to look at ourselves and understand how and why we attract certain personalities. It is quite fascinating.

          1. You’re right, K!
            We do all have defense mechanisms and it really is fascinating to think about. I now wonder if empaths have one that we will never be able to see like the majority of narcissists.

          2. Wise K, I want to thank you for helping me realize a truth. I’m sorry it is not in direct reference to this post, but I could not find a spot to reply well below in comments where you mention that we can let go of our anger because we understand what is happening and why.

            I have felt very frustrated versus angry about the ongoing, manipulations of my VMRN parent, but I realize now how useless it is to be frustrated. What you said clicked. In my following interaction, I let it all go. Every manipulative attempt I just knew there was no point and I changed the topic. No more attempts to be understood or defend the truth. I just saw it for what it is. I don’t think the attempts will stop, but it won’t matter. I’m on a better track thanks to your wise words. Thank you so much for inspiring this release.

          3. Thank you FYC!
            And you are very welcome and you don’t have to apologize; you didn’t do anything wrong.

            It can be very difficult to deal with a narcissistic parent and you did an excellent job at recognizing the manipulations, controlling how YOU responded and then changing the subject; redirected. (Mirroring: if you were a narcissist, redirection would be deflection. We are exactly alike but completely different)

            Don’t waste your breath or energy explaining or wanting to be understood; your frustration, truth seeking and explanations are all pure fuel or challenge fuel and indicate that you are under their control.

            The attempts will not stop and your ET may spike-that’s ok-recognize it, pause and let the LT take over. Pretend that NPD is a congenital medical condition and the manipulations are the symptoms of the disease, then let it go. Enjoy the release. It feels fantastic!

          4. K, That’s some very good advice right there. I just had an ET spike with Matrinarc. I even told her to shut up and listen. But then I calmed down, finished the conversation, and vented to my niece until my LT returned. We were both mystified at the conversation (why does she say things like that?).

          5. Thank you SMH!
            Ha ha ha…”shut up and listen” is some nice challenge fuel! Your mother’s NPD (medical condition) compels her to use a variety of manipulations in order to generate an emotional response from you and she will use any form of provocation to elicit that emotional response.

            Beware of the symptoms/manipulations.