A Letter to the Narcissist – No. 42

 

LETTER TO THE NARCISSIST -PRINCESS A'S LETTER

You say you miss me. That’s not really true though is it?  You only said that to get what you wanted. And I let you have it. But this time I knew exactly what you were doing.

And that’s what you say to all of them isn’t it?  That you miss them, that you adore them.  Some days I beat myself up for falling for these lies, for allowing myself to get involved with you knowing you were married. But back then I didn’t know about love-bombing or future faking. I thought you were genuine, that you cared for me.   The fact that you were on your third marriage should have been a warning, but your words suggested that in me you had found ‘the one’.

I was blinded in my need for love and affection, especially after being left heartbroken by a man who had decided he was in love with someone else after knowing her for two weeks and did not want me anymore despite being together for 7 years.  That’s why I accepted your invitation for coffee after you left a note on my computer screen to wish me a happy birthday.

I had liked you even before then, there was something about that I found attractive, but I would never have made the first move and I was shaking like a leaf the very first time we met for coffee.  I never thought I would end up being with you.  I poured my heart out to you and you provided the shoulder to cry on.  I would have been happy with your friendship only. But you had a masterplan didn’t you? To lure me in, to get me hooked on you so that eventually I would fall into bed with you.  My heartbreak was the perfect scenario for you.  I know now that this is your modus operandi when ensnaring women– test the waters by asking about their marriages or relationships.  If everything is less than hunky dory, well you might get your foot in the door.

Invest time over coffees and lunches, get the compliments flowing, get her number, text and message nonstop. How l looked forward to your texts every day, to spending what little time you could give me together.  I fell in love with you, and you knew that.  Your marriage was a perfect excuse to not hang around.  I see that now, but at the time I never questioned it or asked for anything. I was just so happy to be with you. And then slowly things started to change. I saw a different side of you, a callous side that dismissed your wife’s illness, wishing her dead.  You left your wife bewildered when you told her you were divorcing her.  Little did I know that by then you were busy seducing someone else. But I found out.  You even told me her name -S.  Did you play the knight in shining armour with her, there for her in her unhappy marriage?  Was it unhappy before you came along?

You have made me feel so worthless, but I don’t think you care.  You didn’t care about your wife, you don’t care about me and you don’t care about S either as you continued to be intimate with me.  Surely if you loved her as I heard you tell her on the phone, you would not still want to be with me? Does she know about me?  I bet not. Does she know you are trying to ensnare other women?  I bet not.

When someone you love dies, your heart hurts, you grieve, you miss them but you know they are never coming back. There is finality in their death.  With you there is no finality, no closure, because you cannot be honest about what you have done and what you continue to do.  Why can you not tell me why you do what you do? What are you scared of?  If you were just open with me, talked to me, I might be able to understand, that perhaps you cannot help yourself.

I want to forget you, but I can’t.  There is something in me that wants justice for the pain you have caused, and that’s why you are always in my head.

I never asked you for anything. I would have given you everything.  The love I had for you is gone, I’m pretty sure.  Occasionally I feel sorry for you, but because you have not one iota of shame or remorse for the way you have used and treated all of us, mostly I hate you. You are nothing but a man whore. You are empty and rotten on the inside.

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291 Comments

  1. LG, as someone who has been a DLS I would like to tell you that I understand where you are coming from. I adored my ex-narc. Adored him. And I decided to break it off ‘cold turkey’. I knew it had to be done and I did it. I disappeared. Moved, changed my phone number, dyed my hair a different colour, threw sheets and towels away.
    I cried EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. For weeks.The pain was so strong that I was feeling it in my body. It was sharp, intense, overwhelming. But believe me (and the other readers): it does get better with time. It’s like quitting a drug, it really is. Withdrawal symptoms are almost unbearable at first, but they fade, eventually.

    Also, your feelings are VALID. The pain, the frustration, the rage, the bewilderment (and whatever else it is that you are feeling now) are VALID and understandable. I will not preach, or tell you that you have to find a good man, with good values and respect yourself – no offence to anyone. I understand that the advice was given in good faith, but I don’t think it did LG any good – and it probably came across as condescending.

    Anyway, remember: as HG has said, NO CONTACT is key. KEY!!!!!!!

    Give yourself time to process the grief (that is necessary), be patient AND STAY AWAY FROM THE GUY. Accept that you will suffer before you get better. No shortcut here, sorry. You will have to endure some pain.
    There is nothing good for you to be achieved giving the narc ‘a piece of your mind’ or complaining about the injustice of it all. Who cares LG. Think about yourself. YOU come first. You CAN rebuild yourself and your life. Show yourself what you are capable of!!!!! One day you will look back and feel strong and proud.

    1. EMP – Thank you for your validation. Yes, some things being said here sound harsh. All this is only recent and fresh for me so one needs time.

      Why did you decide to disappear?

      1. Because I knew it wasn’t going anywhere.
        One day I woke up and thought: “I’m not wasting any more time on this. It’s over”.

  2. You are right HG my own ET must be up a bit well it sort of is but not like last week thankfully

  3. Dear LG

    HG is correct in his observation

    I am just giving my opinion based on what you wrote here I was incorrect that he is a lesser HG is the only one that can give you a definite answer
    I’m glad you consulted with him

    Now if you can every time you start asking WHY read here
    Play HG at night before you sleep
    You need to shift your focus away from the narc

    To protect yourself lock down your email and set up a new one

    If he bought you anything get rid of it now

    Do not look him up online

    Do not obsess as this will make you weaker

    There are NO WHYs honey he is a Narcissist

    It’s ok to cry get upset do this but never let the narc know how you are feeling EVER🦋

    Kiki

    1. Kiki – I just replied to FYC saying that I seem to be incapable to accept that narcissists operate differently so I keep applying my views on how I would think the narcissist should behave. And I keep making that mistake – telling this guy how I feel.

      Today I just remembered how back in October when he hung up on me and told me it was over, that we would never talk or meet again and then I blocked him, I sent an email to him with many of the things I thought he was (sociopath, lacking empathy, remorse and so much more….all the observations I had made). This was the first time I was telling him this. He very calmly replied to me and said “I understand you are hurt and need a scapegoat. All good with me”.

      1. LG

        never ever expose your feelings to him

        WhyYour feelings are fuel the more intense the better
        Telling him what he is doesn’t work he will switch it back on you and say you are crazy

        Your feelings will swing all over the place for awhile that is normal and ok but you alone are the only one that can help yourself with this

        Notice how you really feel I bet it ranges from hate rage and disgust to missing him and sadness
        Sit through the feelings let them come but remember this is not love for him it simply loss of something you thought was right

        Your logic will start coming out once you self soothe

        1. Logic will come when your ET lowers and that will ONLY happen by imposing and sticking to no contact.

          1. Yes HG I agree but the feelings can be like a tsunami for awhile if she is freshly broken hearted these feelings will be amplified
            It’s a process of grieving

            Yes no contact is the only way I’m just trying to get LG to centre herself and not to become overwhelmed when it hits

            Kiki

          2. She’s already overwhelmed by her ET. If she tackles that the commensurate emotional avalanche will also reduce.

  4. Lost the last batch of posts/reply options to those… but fair point at 18:06, NA…

    I was forever making excuses about the G’s pathological jealousy (“He’s older”/”He’s protective,” yada yada) — that excuse-making must have driven my friends bananas.

    *** My auto-correct kept wanting to turn “yada” into “Yoda.” Yep, Yoda surely could have helped me during that time. Lol

  5. HG – One thing is what I should do and another what I am capable of doing. I am sure you are all right here. The fight between what my heart says and what my head tells me goes beyond. I say “yes, it is not normal, it is crazy, he is an asshole. HG told me he is a narcissist, etc” and then I go “I need to talk to him, I miss him and if only could we solve this”.

    1. LG, you are in a place where we have ALL been to one degree or another. It’s why HG writes about it. It’s why he does consultations. These circular conversations and “best of”/“worst of” loops will play over and over until you decide to take control. You ARE capable of doing it. See yourself from a position of strength, not weakness. You’ve got this. Consult and let HG put you on the fast track to freedom. Don’t allow yourself to settle for less.

    2. You know what’s fun ? NOT HAVING TO THINK ABOUT SHIT LIKE THIS.

      He’s an asshole. If he wasn’t an asshole you wouldn’t be you wouldn’t be on HG Tudors site and paying for consultations

      NORMAL PPL DONT MAKE YOU GOOGLE THEIR BEHAVIOUR TO FIGURE THEM OUT ( lol that’s one of my own personal boundaries I came up with )
      You just been mindfucked so long (maybe your whole life , I dunno) that you think this is ok or normal

      It’s not

      There’s a life after this shit
      GOSO

      1. “Normal people don’t make you google their behaviour to figure them out.” we need that on a sticky note.

  6. LG hoovering will come later down the line but that is not your worry now

    You need to vanish from that mans life in all ways

    I mean it kindly

    Kiki

    1. Kiki – but why do you say he expects me to contact him?

      I did a few weeks ago and this is what I got:

      I called him to see if we could talk about things and he said that he is not interested in talking to me and hung up.

      Then I received a text saying: “don’t you dare calling again after sending your Nazi email to my daughter or I will nail your dirty hide to the wall”.

      I told him that this was a physical threat I could use as proof. Immediately he said “really??? are you still in this country? because if you are, the lawyer I contacted will do the job for me. The nazi email was your mistake. Even if you are hiding out in your country it will work, it just will take a bit longer”. At the end he said “I will however find out if you are still here only to learn if it will take weeks or months to get the laswsuit going.”

      Is this expecting me to contact him? hmmmm

      And the hoover will come later? For this one I am more than dead, blacker than black. He will never hoover me.

      1. Dear LG

        I know this may not make sense now but trust me .

        The reason he was so nasty is he KNOWS you wanted to talk ,missed him etc .You are available and making him feel like Gods gift to the female population by contacting him.
        His ego is now bursting with his own self importance .

        I feel you are too early in your healing to absorb the full impact of everything here and narcissism I was the same .So little steps might be best .
        You need something positive to grasp to .Something to make YOU feel better.

        You are not dead to him , you are very lucky you came here and I promise in a few months you will see this through a very different lens.

        Now flip it in your mind , at the moment HE is dead to you .
        Switch this back on him .

        Say this every time you get urges to make contact or miss him

        I deserve a man who will fight for me .

        Let him off with the other one ,God help her.

        This bastards ego needs to be deflated and you have the power to do that .Believe me you have .

        You will flip between hating him ,missing him and pining know this is normal and natural .
        It will come in waves of sometimes very contradictory emotions.
        This is okay it is needed for healing ,it sucks I know .

        Avoid checking him up online
        Avoid looking at pics
        Stop listening to all music for awhile

        I had to replace my phone as it had to much association with him and I grew to hate the sight of my phone.

        You have so much to learn sweet LG but stay here you will get there
        You must read as many of HGs articles as possible ,

        Kiki

        1. Kiki – he reason why I contacted him a few weeks back is because I wanted my job back. I feel I made a mistake by leaving that job. Not only did I lose him but I also lost my job. I resigned myself and I am regretting it. He himself gave me time to think before I left my job, told me not to rush things and he was right in that because now I have no job and the reason I accepted it when he offered it to me is because I had not job. I did not want to talk anything personal but just the job. That is when he replied saying don’t dare call me or I will nail your dirty hide on the wall……”

          1. Forget that job

            You are best away from all this horror

            I’m guessing this job wasn’t a professional job you got yourself so fuck it not worth the hassle

            Never depend on ANY man for jobs etc
            You now go and seek a new job for YOU something you do for yourself will always feel better and build your self worth up
            Always guard your own independence finances and identity in this world or a man can take it all just like that

            Kiki

        2. Kiki – you say I am not dead to him but how? if I wasn’t dead he would talk to me, he would contact me and at the very least he would listen to what I have to say. If he is clearly telling me “don’t dare call me again” that is being more than dead, that is not wanting to know I exist and he even said “I would love to keep it that way” when I told him that he knows nothing about my life. It is crystal clear I am dead. Please, can you explain how I am not dead to him? I am lost

          1. He’s in the golden period with his new target and wants nothing to do with you. You’re messing it up. He wishes you were dead just at this moment . Just cuz you’re effing up what he’s onto and bugging him. You’re worthless right now. Just go away , is basically what he wants.
            He’ll be back to hoover eventually but HG would say take this opportunity to disappear off the map and get a head start on your healing (amiright HG?)

          2. Wokeaf – I just can’t understand the “he will hoover eventually”. Why will he? Will he?

          3. He will hoover. Whether it succeeds depends on how effective your no contact regime is.

            Forget about him. Focus on your no contact regime. If you do not do this, you will fail to move forward and you WILL remain confused, bewildered and hurting. You cannot control him – you can control you.

          4. What is the hoover about? Yes, I sort of know what hoovering is but which kind of things can you expect when he hoovers? him contacting or doing what? not sure.

            I don’t want anything personal with him.l I just wanted my job back

          5. The hoover is primarily to gain fuel, possibly character traits and possibly residual benefits.

            Do not concern yourself with why he is hoovering you, you will not be able to apply the understanding because your emotional thinking is too high. The ONLY thing you need to focus on is no contact, nothing else.

          6. When he needs fuel.
            Could be next week or in ten years
            It’s not even personal . You’re a source of fuel. That’s it.
            Consult with HG
            Read his work
            Listen and re listen to his YouTube videos.
            And defin buy ebooks on kindle .those really are helpful
            And if and when you actually want to get over him,, stay total NC

            In time it’ll all start to make sense.

            Consider yourself lucky you are t married to him or have kids.Youre FREE. That’s a gift.

          7. You are always an appliance to him He can put you down or throw you back in the box when it suits HIM
            This has nothing to do with your worth as a woman please believe that
            The other one is not better etc she is just more fuel
            Guess what most likely he has a few other women in the woodwork also
            You are not seeing her get the fairytale and you tossed to the side that is an illusion
            Do you know what narcs are very predictable once you learn
            Validate yourself now take care of you treat yourself
            stay here and READ HG he is the one capable of helping you most
            If you need to vent talk ask questions that are highly emotional myself and the Ladies are here to help there

            I can see you want a Hoover please read HG s work about this A Hoover doesn’t mean he cares it’s about him his ego

            I’m not sure of article name but HG posted it a few days ago about an ex contacting him and the brutal mindset of a narc

            It’s I remember the name

            Kiki

          8. Because he is a narcissist and a very vile charmless one at that

            Kiki

      2. LG he loves all this drama , a normal person would just chalk it up to you being hurt .

        It’s all low class threats and Bullshit .Does he not have better things to attend to.

        Yes yes yes he is expecting you to contact , he sees you as a weakling crazy about him .Remember he is Gods gift to women.
        Of course he is expecting

        what he doesn’t expect is LG to vanish .

        This however may trigger a Hoover so be on guard this is NOT a good thing .

        Kiki

        1. Kiki – when you say “he loves all this drama , a normal person would just chalk it up to you being hurt .” what you mean is that he should (if he were a normal person) know all this is because I am hurt, right?

          I tried to explain to him, despite having thrown me out of the office in the way he did, that I realised that I miss my job and that I need one. I explained to him how he was right in that I would regret leaving my job but I explained too that at the time I couldn’t make it because of what he had done to me personally. I explained that my retaliation calling him nazi and other things like I knew he is a sociopath, etc copying his daughter in the email was a consequence of the way he threw me out of the office and humiliated me in public when he could have told me to go but in private.

          Not only did he reply saying the comment about nailing my hide on the wall if I dare call him again but when I said I could use that violent comment as proof he said straight away “really, are you in this country still or hiding out in your country? ” “because I have contacted my lawyer and she will do the work for me”. He added “now it makes sense that story you told me about your previous relationship” (this was a relationship where the guy lied to me big time too) and he barely knew what had happened in it, he just wanted to use this relationship to hurt me even more. I told you that he knows nothing about me or my relationships. He then said “and I would love to keep it that way”. Every sentence he wrote was breaking my heart more and more. Then he said “I will stop writing now, however I will find out if you are here or in your country just to know if the lawsuit will take a few weeks or a few months”

          I told him I don’t want anything personal with him anymore, that I am not interested, that I only wanted my job back.

          1. LG he is bluffing

            He won’t do anything all you did was send an email
            Not the best idea but it’s done

            Lawsuit yeah right just ignore this it’s rubbish

            Just disappear
            I’m not the expert but he sounds like a Lesser Narc to me due to his low class crass behaviour not an ounce of charm there

            To say those things to you was disgusting

            Kiki

          2. Kiki – HG told me he is Upper Mid Range Somatic
            I just got quite upset about someone else’s comments here telling me he will do a restraining order, killing or violence

          3. Focus on your no contact regime. You are failing to action this, hence why you are getting upset.

          4. LG: You are still trying to apply your world view on a narcissist. This man is personality disordered. He can only view the world through his distorted lens. He is motivated solely by serving his own desires and he does NOT and will NEVER care, whatsoever, about your needs or desires. Full stop. It is time to move on.

            Do not contact him further. Work on accepting he never meant anything he said. No matter what you did, or said, or do, or say, NOTHING will change the outcome to a favorable conclusion.

            Get Out. Move near someone who cares and will be supportive (even if that is out of country). Stay Out. Never contact him again. When you feel the urge to reach out to the past, contact HG our the blog instead. We are here for you, but you must do the hard part. When we delay GOSO, we delay healing. Please GOSO today.

          5. FYC – I think you are very right and that is a big problem for me, i.e. I am applying my world view on the narcissist. I don’t seem to be able to accept or I am not capable to even imagine for one minute that someone can be careless, heartless, emotionless, lacking empathy and being so evil. This is alien to me and thinking that there are people like this out there is nearly impossible for me to accept.

          6. Apply No Contact. You’re failing to do so. Until YOU apply no contact these feelings won’t diminish.

          7. That’s really the bottom-line truth: no contact, to lower the emotional thinking. It’s hard to even think clearly/process/begin any healing otherwise.

            Everyone is being so kind & trying so hard to help LG, but maybe she’s on “information overload.” Or maybe I am, Lol

            In any case, I will shushy up now…I mean *now* I will (my quiet will start soon… wait for it, wait for it…) 😉

          8. I agree with you, Caroline. I think we may be overloading LG.
            I gave her some links to articles that may help her,and hope she will read and absorb the information at her own pace.

          9. LG
            Well now you know there are. HG has confirmed that there are and that he is himself one, and we all here have confirmed that there are and we have experienced it. I think what you mean is that you cannot believe that it happened to you. Well it did, and the sooner you accept that and take HG’s and everyone else’s advice to have no further contact with this abuser, your recovery can begin. You do want that don’t you?

          10. LG: Yet you must accept the truth. Your happiness depends upon it and you do not want to waste your life living a lie. It will be difficult at first, but you will grow and be very glad you did. It is far better to live in the real world than try to conform the world to your fantasies and be consistently disappointed. You deserve better, LG. Accept the facts and move on. GOSO, and you will find the fulfillment you seek when you do not seek it in another who will NEVER give it. Note: I mean never as in, not possible, no matter what you say or do, no matter what he says or does, nor what you hope for. NOT possible. Not ever. That kind of never. 😉

      3. Lg many of the Ladies here have given advice .
        Now I do get that some of us are much further along in our healing and have been here studying HGs works for awhile .

        It is easy to look in and see this for the cruel horrible situation it is .

        However I do see it from your perspective , you were in this ,you believed you were important to this man , it’s fresh , you slept with him and probably fell for him in some way .Your heart is broken it doesn’t matter whether he was a narc your heart is still broken .
        That is okay , your emotions are running high and you are a bit in denial I think .

        That is the reason you reached out ,sent emails etc because you have a broken heart and wanted validation that you meant something.

        You are at the beginning ,the hardest time .
        I want you to focus on you .
        Journaling helps write all the rage down all the feelings .
        Vent here ,believe me I do this a lot here .

        I’m not going to tell you get over it , you cannot AT THE MOMENT ,but you can apply damage control to protect your already shredded self esteem .

        Promise you will stay no contact for now.

        Kiki

  7. Caroline – you stated “It doesn’t surprises me that he’s a Mid-Ranger, but it does surprise me a bit that he’s an Upper Mid-Ranger… until I remembered where you are in his fuel matrix (DLS). This is what makes him especially capable of ditching/punishing/being cold/cruel to you as he did, in the end.”

    Could you please further explain why you say this makes him especially capable of ditching/punishing/being cold/cruel as he did in the end? So he only did this with ME? he won’t do it with others?

    1. No, he will do it with others. You need not be concerned with what he does towards others anyway, you need to focus on your no contact regime. Your emotional thinking is extremely high and this is causing you to focus on the wrong things. He is a narcissist – you must apply GOSO.

      1. Your statement here is quite logical HG and applies to all narcissists—not just DLS dynamics. The piece about how he will do it to others and not to concern ourselves as it’s related to ET. I have actually been frustrated by this whole, “what if he is forever good to her..” I feel like it would make me look even crazier, (as he likes to portray) and yet it is none of my business as you repeatedly communicate—he doesn’t know why he does what he does so inevitably he will screw up. I also worry that his “full effect”
        takes a lot of time and that she will be miserable in ten years. It’s nuts—to ponder that if she is forever treated well I’ll look crazy which alternates with a sadness for her because I know how bad it gets. Bottom line—none of his/her scenarios are my concern.

    2. LG,
      I see HG answered you, and I just wanted to add that with your emotional thinking, you’re probably seeing this as a competition, in terms of how important you are to the narcissist/how you can get his attention back…

      But it’s more abusive behavior (from him) you are fighting for, with this type of thinking, so you really need no contact to clear your mind… also, try to remember that no matter what the position in a fuel matrix, a narcissist has no true empathy for anyone. All will suffer, in one way or another.

      I was an IPPS…and now “my” narcissist is trying to get me back to that position again. At times, in the formal relationship I had with him & after I left him, he’s had the ability to make me so emotionally upset (not overt abusive — in insidious ways) that I’ve lose my appetite for lengthy stretches of time and/or have throw up.

      Not so wonderful, is it?

      All suffer… one way or another.

      1. Caroline – Yes, your comment made me think that because I was DLS then he could be more cruel to me. You mentioned you understood when you realised I was a DLS so clearly, I thought that if I was the primary source then he wouldn’t have been as bad.

        1. It would be bad in a different way — but narcissists are narcissists, so you just don’t want it.

  8. Caroline – you said “until I remembered where you are in his fuel matrix (DLS)”. What is that? What is DLS?

    So which this type of narcissist there is no chance of hoovering?

      1. If you’re no contact, you’ll not know if they die. But does it really matter?

        Yes, it does to me. I suppose that’s ET. Or a sign I’m not Zero Impact. Not being pessimistic, but I don’t think I’ll ever get to ZI. And not really sure I want to.

        1. Me neither, MB. “My” narcissist is significantly older than me, so more guilt for me on that one too! Like RIGHT NOW, feelin’ that concern… and he wants me to feel it, believe me — yet, there it is, I have the care…even when I know everything.

          We can’t *not* be empaths, MB. Personally, I’m glad I care. I just need to watch myself…Sometimes a lot. 😉

          HG tells is it straight from a logic standpoint, at all times. We expect no less from him; we take that and apply it all that we can… but IMO, we can’t apply it ALL the way.

          A dog can’t be a cat, after all.

          #GoodEnoughForMeIsGoodEnough

          1. Caroline, you get me. N is 10 years older than me and far away and not in my network at all. He could easily die and I’d never know. Once he asked me if I’d come to his funeral and cry. I found that an odd question. Knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn’t be the only random woman there crying! I can’t help but care about him even though I know he’s toxic for my health. No contact does help lessen that however.

          2. Oh, gawd, MB! *I* would even come to his funeral, just with that one question for you, lol…. not totally kidding/I can’t be fixed/I am who I am. 🙂

            Um, 15-year difference, for me & the G. I like older men – just do…AND I don’t have Daddy issues… go figure. I’m a mystery, sometimes even to myself.

            You keep on your NC…I know you care, as your heart is so pure with love… but you can’t let a toxic situation harm you, sister.
            #YouAreWorthEverythingAndAGardenofPinkRoses

          3. Caroline, and a bag of chips ha ha. Not sure if I have daddy issues or not. AW never would have happened if he hadn’t been a narc. Of that I am sure! #addict #innateweakness

          4. MB,
            I LOVE my Dad… wait, is that an issue?

            #IsItWrongToAdoreYourDad?

          5. Caroline, I’m not the one to ask. If your Dad is lovable, you are fortunate. I am apathetic where mine is concerned. No love or hate or anything in between. Pretty much the way I sense his feelings toward me.

            #MaybeIDoHaveDaddyIssues

          6. I’m so sorry, MB… it’s probably of little comfort, but that is about him, as I know you are aware, but it should be said repeatedly: it’s not about anything missing in you. I wish every daughter could have a loving, emotionally available Dad. I know it’s just not always the case…

            So you take a little extra care in parenting yourself in the most kind way, ok?
            XO

          7. Thank you Caroline. You don’t have to be sorry. I can’t miss what I never had. If HG had a ND questionnaire tailored toward a parental narcissist, I would def do it.

          8. Really? One that doesn’t ask sex questions and stuff of a romantic nature? I didn’t know that.

          9. Hi mb…my N is 14 years older than me. I have thought of the funeral scenerio or if he ever got sick and i think itd tear me apart emotionally. I hate thinking of it bc its a situation where id want and need to be there but not be able to.

          10. NA “DLS who is a Dirty Empath Utter filth? I think not. It’s like fusion cuisine” first off-
            Fusion cuisine made me lol
            Also- U got that right
            But further – are we referring to a DEMB that’s D bc she’s knowingly a DLS or bc she’s also married herself?
            Not that I suppose it matters lol

      2. Thanks, HG…I didn’t want to write out “Dirty Little Secret.”

        I really am an empath, lol

          1. NA,
            I like it! That is SO much better…I mean, the “dirty” label is kind of shaming for those in that dynamic, right? It’s so 2005, yes? And HG *is* all about empath empowerment, right?

            HG: What say you – name change for the tryst folks?

            “Delicious Little Sip” — a winner…no judgment, yet acknowledgement of the dynamic.

          2. No. A sip is little, therefore little is superfluous and more importantly (1) the fuel provision of the DLS is more than a sip AND (2) the DIrty Little Secret is how we see that particular appliance (unconsciously) within the Fuel Matrix.

          3. HG Tudor – So the dirty little secret is seen by your kind at a lower level than a primary source or main partner? I am just wondering why when he met the new one so recently and left his family for her and asked him if he was seeing us at the same time he told me “but at different levels”. That is because he saw me as the dirty little secret as opposed to someone more important?

          4. 1. The DLS sits beneath the IPPS in the fuel hierarchy.
            2. I don’t follow what you are saying in your second sentence – who asked him? What do you mean by ‘seeing us?’.

          5. HG Tudor – what I meant in my in my second sentence when asking about the DLS is: he met the new woman so recently and he left his family for her. I asked him also if he was seeing us both at the same time (me and the new woman) and he said “but at different levels” (clearly implying he did see us at the same time). I am wondering if the “at different levels” is because he saw me as the DLS and therefore I was at a lower level as opposed to the new woman who was serious and therefore at a higher level. All this is related to me being DLS?

            I hope I made sense now.

          6. Caroline.
            I knew it wouldn’t fly, but what I took away from HG’s response was that the DLS DOES have more importance than the name infers and that it’s their secret that’s dirty and not us, so I’m taking that as a win.

            #Iamdeliciousnomatterwhattheycallme

          7. Ha ha, but then think on the DLS who is also a Dirty Empath? Utter filth!

          8. DLS who is a Dirty Empath Utter filth? I think not. It’s like fusion cuisine. Your kind SAYS ewww to the combo but can’t get their jaws around it fast enough.

            #fingerlickingood

          9. Nobody says EWWWW to it because:-

            1. We are not Britney Spears; and
            2. It’s filthy, but we like it.

          10. HG
            Fiiiiiiiine! You’re right. Your blog your rules.

            ** shuffles off to the naughty school mumbling in a petulant tone ” but I AM delicious and you DO like Britney……” **

            #oopsIdiditagain

          11. NA,
            #ILoveYourThinkingAndIWillAlwaysThinkDeliciousWhenHGWritesDirty!

          12. I agree that Dirty Little Secret is an “ugly” label and one I found disparaging when I first came here. However, I now think it is an effective one because, as you say, describes better how the N regards the appliance and therefore it is more effective in helping the person concerned, the DLS, see the reality of their situation, react more promptly and get out of the Narc’s matrix. It may hurt but at the end it helps. Bad tasting medicine.
            Having said this, I do like Delicious Little Sip.

          13. Alright I’m a little late to this party but I must say.. Narcissists do not have a patent on DLS bed partners. I was one and he was mine. I was really young so he didn’t want people to know at work. (I was 22 and he was 39)
            Best sex ever and I’d almost do it now except he is now 62 and probably has erectile dysfunction. Why bother? It was the best everrrrr known to mankind!

        1. This “Caroline R” is not me…I want to make that clear. So now I need to go back to “Caroline-is-fine” continually… which is fine, lol.

          (Okay, *now* I’m be quiet on this thread, and I wish you a very secure “No Contact,” LG… you can do it… it gets better over time).

          1. Hi Caroline,
            I’m the Caroline R in Australia.
            We’ve lost the colour differentiation in our WP gravitars now, which contributes to possible confusion.

            I’m like the Queen….. she’s ‘Elizabeth R’, and I’m ‘Caroline R’.
            She has more jewels….
            And a bigger house….
            & I don’t think that she follows HG on IG….

    1. LG,
      What I mean by “DLS” is that you were his hidden, secret fling… so I’m trying to say that from all I have read from you, I think all that will happen if you continue to engage with this narcissist is he will feel enraged and become even more cruel.

      You no longer trust this person, do you?

      1. Caroline – you ask me if I trust this person? I don’t think I have ever trusted him to be honest but that is more in relation to him having had other women apart from me and his wife. Not sure what you mean when you ask if I trust him?

        How could he become more cruel? you say he will feel enraged if I continue to engage with him and will become more cruel. He ignores all my emails and messages except when I called a few weeks ago and he sent that message saying not to dare call him or he would nail my dirty hide on the wall. Then I told him that was great proof for me to have in writing and he immediately jumped saying “are you still here in my country? because if you are the lawyer I talked to will do the work for me” and he added “even if you are hiding out in your country it is possible. It will just take months instead of weeks”. Then he said “I will find out if you are here in my country or in yours”

        I mean, after 1 and 1/2 year how is it possible for things to end this way?????? I simply resigned and then he did what he did in the office to me. I retaliated and sent a few emails copying his daughter and I exposed him but because of what he did to me in the office. All this war, I can’t believe it.

        1. LG,
          If you can’t trust someone, you can’t trust them, right? There’s either trust or there’s not. So *no* trust means you have no idea what he could do to you/your loved ones/friends… because you really don’t know who he even is. Do you even want to risk harm, with further contact?

          As for: “How can he do you MORE harm?” In countless ways… financial/reputation/safety/involving your friends or loved ones, in the chaos.

          If you let this go and do not contact him, he’ll very likely do you no further harm.

          He’s a false persona… he could be/do anything… because you do not really know him — he lacks a core, inner being that would give him the conscience to make him a safe person to you. He has a personality disorder that causes a lack of empathy for others… so you are risking everything, by continuing to engage with him.

          That is your choice, ultimately. You have to be secure enough/care about yourself enough not to keep on with someone so unhealthy.

          I tell you this forthright as a woman: If any man ever told me he would “nail my dirty hide to the wall,” I would be enraged!!!!!… And then I would realize something was seriously wrong with him, like he’s totally crazy.

          Stay away from him. That’s all I have left to say.

          1. Caroline – I keep wondering whether the comment “nail my dirty hide on the wall” was a physical violent comment or it has a different connotation. Initially, when I read it I was shocked, I couldn’t move, speechless. Then I started to wonder whether he meant physical violence or as I said, maybe the comment intends to convey a different thing.

            This particular comment and his behaviour in the office on my last day are the two things that really are stuck in my head. He is cruel to the core. I don’t know, I am lost and so hurt. I would have never thought that someone who said he liked me a lot and cared a lot could do these things. Someone who told me I was a keeper and that he wouldn’t let me go and now this……

            Yes, as you said I always asked myself what it really is that I know about this guy and really, I don’t know anything about him, about how he could behave. I only know the little he told me and the suspicious comments he made like the vulnerable or that I could be a socipath, he might have a dark side, etc…… I have only seen him for periods of time that didn’t go beyond 24 hours. I really know nothing about him. That day in the office I sort of felt that he could get physical. It is something I just felt. No, I don’t trust him, at all.

          2. Stop focussing on what he said, you are engaging in redundant behaviour. He is a narcissist, apply GOSO.

          3. ……and people wonder why outsiders are not understanding, make unhelpful comments, and distance themselves. This thread has largely become a good example and reminder of how people on the outside view us when we are trying to explain narcissism and it’s effects on us. We DO know and still it’s frustrating as hell not to be able to get through. Just as someone once tried to get through to us that the behaviour (ours as well as the narc’s) was not normal only to be greeted with but…but…he said…but I love him…but…but

            Perhaps looking back we could cut them some slack. Who COULD understand this type of reaction. It defies logic.

          4. Agreed!! The key point to GOSO really is the main focus
            Which HG gives us (he’s not a healer)
            It’s up to us empaths to then steer (not shove) the relevant escapee to clarity…I don’t try to help until the escapee has reached the point (as with any addiction) that the pain of leaving is less than the pain of staying. When they consciously realize THIS IS NOT NORMAL. Then reassure – it takes TIME to understand it all. And the ONLY way to understand is to GOSO – break the damn spell, clear your head. You can’t see it if you’re in it.
            Once they’re near ready to GOSO- I nudge with pointing out the obvious . I offer up the markers , (pillars of narcissism) – ask them to really look with objective eyes.

            It . Takes . TIIIIIME. ….good no contact time.
            And study. Read read read . Get away from the narc so the spell can break.

          5. HG – I just wanted to ask something – am I safe here? I mean – are there any narcissists around posting and commenting without the rest of us knowing that they are?

          6. Hg – you’d surely agree that once GOSO has been implemented, there is a fair period of time when we process everything ? Once GOSO is in place – reading about Emotional Thinking so we understand THAT enough not to break NC – of course
            But the processing is intense. We can’t just shake it off and move on. It’s a grand ideal but even if we do that- we’d get hoovered or just attract another narc.
            The processing takes ages.

          7. LG,
            Okay, so you don’t trust him (you shouldn’t) and can see that you don’t really know him (you don’t)… so now you can agree, I hope, that you not only do not want any kind of personal relationship with him — you also do not want to work for him.

            So…it’s back to “no contact” being your only reasonable solution.

            P.S. It doesn’t matter, ultimately, *exactly* what he meant by that comment. It’s bad, no matter what. It’s also a warning, from him, to stay away.

    2. Hi LG
      I just read your story here and Sweetie my heart goes out to you

      You are still very blinded by the pain so your focus is strongly on this horrible man
      That is natural it is a process

      Now if you want to feel a bit more in control I will try to give some tips not saying this will help but it might
      Your feelings are causing you to panic and feel out of control as if you have no choice no say

      Ok
      Do not under any circumstances contact him

      Believe me he is expecting you to contact him so DONT that will kick his bloated ego

      Vanish don’t tell him or anyone he knows just drop of the radar

      He sounds like a disgusting excuse for a man and you girl have the power to dent his oversized narc ego by vanishing

      You are very early in your healing so just take this first step

      One step at a time

      Kiki

  9. I had to laugh, reading this post and comments as this afternoon I had to go to his building and what do I see? Him leaving the cafe opposite with some woman. She went one way, he walked into the building. Looks like he has a new target and still using the same method. Actually I wasn’t laughing at the time 😣

    1. Caroline and nunya biz – You say “As LG flies quickly through all this info, I’m still stuck back at the very first few offenses, like I’d have had visions of kicking him in the shins by *then*! ”

      Do you mean the first few offences this guy in particular made to me?

      nunya biz – you say it is so blatant and so awful – again do you mean what this guy did?

      So I am feeling stupid here. Not sure what you are trying to say…

      You also say that this particular person has been using gaslighting repeatedly as his primary manipulation tactic. Yes, not sure I always see it as gaslighting (cognitive dissonance) but exactly, despite having resigned I fully and utterly feel that he fired me rather than me quitting. That is what is on my mind.

      He told me at the very start that he would keep me in a basement and give me food and drink.

      I also asked him what he thought of me and he replied “you are vulnerable”.

      When we continued talking after telling me he was staying with his family he told me “you take this because it is better than nothing”.

      When I went to work in January with him I asked him why he offered me the job and he said “it is better to have you here than in your home country”. I went home for a week and he said “please, come back”. When I told him that I was thinking of resigning he said “I would hate not to have you in this office”. I asked why and he said “I like to work with you and having you around”. Yet, he met me maybe a total of 5 times in the 3 months I was there.

      At the start, just after meeting the first time he said: “I really don’t want to hurt you or cause distress, both physically or in other ways”. “Please. this is important to me. Why am I scaring you? I could not stand the idea of hurting you physically when we had sex, and it is the same mentally.” “It is not nice to be mistrusted”

      He seemed to be very focused in me trusting him at the start
      He said “remember when we first talked about honesty? This is very important to me but it also means I want your trust unless I did something to lose your trust”.

      He said “you never know, I might have a dark side!”. This is because I asked him why he had said that I wasn’t shocked when he asked me to meet.

      He said “Yet you agree to meet with a stranger for dinner”. “Must be my charms or my good looks”

      Just before meeting in person he said: “Well you could turn out to be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent”

      He said: I am a pretty good observer or whatever you want to call it

      He said: what is love anyway

      At the start he told me “this is not something I do – writing and planning to meet”, “this is not a daily routine”, “I am telling you so that you don’t have the wrong impression of me

      1. LG I wrote you a detailed response and my phone are it, I’ll check back later. But yes, what he’s done to you.

        1. Nunya Biz – I suppose you lost the detailed response? Not sure what you meant about your phone?

          1. Hi LG! Sorry, I ended up doing some furniture moving yesterday. “Are” was supposed to be “ate”.
            Yes, I typed you a detailed response yesterday that I was quite happy with and it disappeared on my phone. I will try again before I go to work today. I hope you are doing ok today.

        2. Lou – with comparing my story to ANK’s what I meant is that my guy actually left his wife and me the minute he met this new one. Unlike in her case he didn’t continue to sleep with me while with the new one and he also informed his wife so to me that looks like he is very honest towards the new one and very faithful too. Although of course he did not do all this until he knew for sure the new one was secured. He in fact told me that he stopped seeing me once he saw it was mutual between them and even the very same day he was going to her he told me hours before that that he hadn’t told me no and that he hadn’t decided about us yet. He was clearly testing the waters and not giving steps till he saw the new one was secure. Disgusting!!!

          At the beginning of our talks he seemed to be very focused in me trusting him.
          He said “remember when we first talked about honesty? This is very important to me but it also means I want your trust unless I did something to lose your trust”.

          He also said that he is a pretty good observer

          He said I was vulnerable in 2 occasions. In both I asked what he thought of me and once he answered “vulnerable” and the other one “intelligent, attractive. Vulnerable too”. At one point I was telling him I was scared to trust people or something like this and he said “that is because of the hurt in the past”.

          One day he said “what is love anyway?”

          And at the start he told me “this is not something I do – writing and planning to meet”, “this is not a daily routine”, “I am telling you so that you don’t have the wrong impression of me”.

          He would text or talk aggressively saying things like “I am not to be prompted”, “I am not good at doing the things someone else expects me to do” or “I hate your questions” or many times telling me “just read what I wrote, you don’t get it, do you?” or “I only do things when I want to” or when I said that he hadn’t kissed me one day recently he said “I don’t kiss you in the mornings”…….I was always waiting to see when he would kiss me or when he would say/do something.

          When we started talking he told me he wanted to know me as completely as possible and that he wanted to know my fears, dreams, fantasies and delights. He asked me what was important for me in life and I said I would write an answer. After 1 hour he wrote telling me “I thought you were sending me that reply. The reason is I am eager to know”. We only talked for 2 weeks and then we met in person on a Tuesday. He told me “I will not survive beyond Tuesday if we don’t meet”. He told me he was thrilled to know me and that his heart was mine, thanked me for being part of this Universe, that he was falling in love, that he hesitated to use the “L” word but that liking me wasn’t enough, reassured me I wasn’t an affair and that is when he told me honesty was very important for him. He said “liking you is already not deep enough” and “date” is not a word that suits me (this was in relation to the fact that we were meeting for the first time).

          After a few months when things clearly started to change I asked him what he likes about me. After thinking for a while and telling me that he likes the elephant in my pyjamas, he said “it is better I tell you what I don’t like because I will be finished quicker”. Yet he never told me what he likes, just avoiding the answer. One day I told him something about missing him or liking him and he said “I was just going to say something about that but now since you brought it up I will not say”. The very last time I was with him in March I asked him what he likes about me and he said that he would tell me one day.

          When at the beginning I told him one day that he didn’t seem to take the initiative to call he hung up on me and didn’t answer messages or calls from me all day long ignoring me. The next day he told me I had attacked him, that he felt attacked.

          And regarding the comment of keeping me in the basement and giving me food and drink…I was reading Dangerous Liaisons by Claudia Moscovici and she clearly gives an example, an excerpt of Picasso’s words who was meant to be a psychopath where he tells his new woman, the one he would marry later that he would keep her in a forest where she could work and not be bothered by anyone and that he would bring food to her twice a day. When I read that I nearly closed the book in dismay.

          He used to tell me he wanted the complete package and always referred to the package. He also told me how the sex we had is the sex people who love and care have….crazy!!!!

          1. Yes LG, those are all great examples of his narcissism at work. Reading HG it’s easier to dissect their conflicting nature. The new woman will turn out very badly and she should run, and he obviously would have slept with you again later, luckily you had enough clarity to leave, which he is trying to make you question. Be happy he’s focused on someone else! GOSO, you should read HG about goso, exorcism, discard, etc…
            This guy thinks he owns you and you are to respond how he likes or it is your fault. He is disordered and crazy, yes.

          2. nunya biz – it is interesting when you say that this guy thinks he owns me. That reminded me of something. In February he went away for a week to do some training he does every year. I knew the name of the hotel he had stayed in the previous year and one day I called the hotel asking for him as he hadn’t been in touch. He got on the phone really annoyed and told me “Laura, you don’t own me”. Ok, maybe I did wrong with calling him to the hotel. Maybe I shouldn’t have done it but tell me in such an angry tone “you don’t own me”. Once more I was shocked, shaking and felt so guilty. We would only talk when he wanted it and the same with seeing each other. I always excused it all because he is married so then I would have to accept that it was when he wanted.

      2. LG, I think it is good you are aware you are experiencing cognitive dissonance, that is exactly what is happening. Don’t feel stupid, we’ve all been through this one way or another. And I noticed you differentiated your situation from ANK’s situation, that is still ET. It doesn’t matter how many variations between narcs there can be, they are still all fundamentally narcs. One can have two side affairs instead of three and lie about them (gaslighting), it makes no difference, another narc can have no sex at all because they are asexual. The tactics they use are the same, though different ones are favored by different schools and cadres.

        You have to protect yourself, he won’t. Every single thing he does is to protect his reality, you as a person are irrelevant. He is the boss, he is the center of women’s attention, everyone feels something about him and directs those feelings at him. Even your negative, fuel pouring, painful tears validate his existence and perception that he is in control.

        “I fully and utterly feel that he fired me rather than me quitting.”
        Gaslighting. You quit. Period. Don’t listen to him. He’s messing with your perception because he can’t lose control.

        “He told me at the very start that he would keep me in a basement and give me food and drink.”
        Possessiveness. You are an appliance, not a person. Isolation.

        “I also asked him what he thought of me and he replied “you are vulnerable”.”
        –Probably I’d classify this as a warning. Calculating. He obviously knows some of your weaknesses, that you have guilt, question yourself, are kind, honest, etc…

        “When we continued talking after telling me he was staying with his family he told me “you take this because it is better than nothing”.”
        —WTF?

        “When I went to work in January with him I asked him why he offered me the job and he said “it is better to have you here than in your home country”. I went home for a week and he said “please, come back”. When I told him that I was thinking of resigning he said “I would hate not to have you in this office”. I asked why and he said “I like to work with you and having you around”. ”
        —Hoovers. Hoovering is awful. It is not a compliment. Isolation. He wants to generate dependency on him for work/income.

        “Yet, he met me maybe a total of 5 times in the 3 months I was there.”
        —Shelving. You are an appliance to be picked up and put down.

        “At the start, just after meeting the first time he said: “I really don’t want to hurt you or cause distress, both physically or in other ways”. “Please. this is important to me. Why am I scaring you? I could not stand the idea of hurting you physically when we had sex, and it is the same mentally.” “It is not nice to be mistrusted””
        —Facade/self-image management. Gaslighting. Grooming.

        “He said “you never know, I might have a dark side!”.”
        —Warning. He was telling the truth.

        “He said “Yet you agree to meet with a stranger for dinner”. “Must be my charms or my good looks””
        —He was getting positive fuel from your attention and stating it out loud. He wants you to play into his facade that he is desirable. You are a part of making him feel he is that person.

        “Just before meeting in person he said: “Well you could turn out to be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent””
        —Projection.

        Keep reading articles, maybe some specific ones can be suggested to you and I’m sure there are more labels for what I’ve attempted to identify here, but this guy is OVER THE TOP NARC. Like red flag bonanza. He has no empathy for you at all, everything he is doing is to get you into whatever position he wants and you threatened his ability to do that by resigning. Good for you, but now he’s painted you black and trying to remedy that wound, you wounded him and punched a hole in his facade. Please do not talk to him at all, once he gets his rage out he may try to hoover you again, you should hope he does not. Anything you think that tries to suggest you deserve or should fix or maybe you should have done….is emotional thinking and not logical. You are important, don’t put yourself into emotional harm by considering any of it. He cannot change, he will keep doing what he is doing. The new woman he is with is not going to fare any better. Shut off all ties to him forever. Whatever temporary pain this causes is worth it, it will pass. The pain, which he is now trying to amplify, is one of the things that causes binding because you want him to stop.

        1. Nunya biz– with comparing my story to ANK’s what I meant is that my guy actually left his wife and me the minute he met this new one. Unlike in her case he didn’t continue to sleep with me while with the new one and he also informed his wife so to me that looks like he is very honest towards the new one and very faithful too. Although of course he did not do all this until he knew for sure the new one was secured. He in fact told me that he stopped seeing me once he saw it was mutual between them and even the very same day he was going to her he told me hours before that that he hadn’t told me no and that he hadn’t decided about us yet. He was clearly testing the waters and not giving steps till he saw the new one was secure. Disgusting!!!

          At the beginning of our talks he seemed to be very focused in me trusting him.
          He said “remember when we first talked about honesty? This is very important to me but it also means I want your trust unless I did something to lose your trust”.

          He also said that he is a pretty good observer

          He said I was vulnerable in 2 occasions. In both I asked what he thought of me and once he answered “vulnerable” and the other one “intelligent, attractive. Vulnerable too”. At one point I was telling him I was scared to trust people or something like this and he said “that is because of the hurt in the past”.

          One day he said “what is love anyway?”

          And at the start he told me “this is not something I do – writing and planning to meet”, “this is not a daily routine”, “I am telling you so that you don’t have the wrong impression of me”.

          He would text or talk aggressively saying things like “I am not to be prompted”, “I am not good at doing the things someone else expects me to do” or “I hate your questions” or many times telling me “just read what I wrote, you don’t get it, do you?” or “I only do things when I want to” or when I said that he hadn’t kissed me one day recently he said “I don’t kiss you in the mornings”…….I was always waiting to see when he would kiss me or when he would say/do something.

          When we started talking he told me he wanted to know me as completely as possible and that he wanted to know my fears, dreams, fantasies and delights. He asked me what was important for me in life and I said I would write an answer. After 1 hour he wrote telling me “I thought you were sending me that reply. The reason is I am eager to know”. We only talked for 2 weeks and then we met in person on a Tuesday. He told me “I will not survive beyond Tuesday if we don’t meet”. He told me he was thrilled to know me and that his heart was mine, thanked me for being part of this Universe, that he was falling in love, that he hesitated to use the “L” word but that liking me wasn’t enough, reassured me I wasn’t an affair and that is when he told me honesty was very important for him. He said “liking you is already not deep enough” and “date” is not a word that suits me (this was in relation to the fact that we were meeting for the first time).

          After a few months when things clearly started to change I asked him what he likes about me. After thinking for a while and telling me that he likes the elephant in my pyjamas, he said “it is better I tell you what I don’t like because I will be finished quicker”. Yet he never told me what he likes, just avoiding the answer. One day I told him something about missing him or liking him and he said “I was just going to say something about that but now since you brought it up I will not say”. The very last time I was with him in March I asked him what he likes about me and he said that he would tell me one day.

          When at the beginning I told him one day that he didn’t seem to take the initiative to call he hung up on me and didn’t answer messages or calls from me all day long ignoring me. The next day he told me I had attacked him, that he felt attacked.

          And regarding the comment of keeping me in the basement and giving me food and drink…I was reading Dangerous Liaisons by Claudia Moscovici and she clearly gives an example, an excerpt of Picasso’s words who was meant to be a psychopath where he tells his new woman, the one he would marry later that he would keep her in a forest where she could work and not be bothered by anyone and that he would bring food to her twice a day. When I read that I nearly closed the book in dismay.

          He used to tell me he wanted the complete package and always referred to the package. He also told me how the sex we had is the sex people who love and care have….crazy!!!!

        2. nunya biz – my comments take long to be published, they show as “awaiting moderation” for too long so I guess you won’t see my reply…..I don’t know why this is happening

          1. LG. We all evolve with time, experience and knowledge. You too have the responsibility to evolve with all this knowledge, and remember, the Narcissists are evolving as well. Remember, the games must always be played with the Narcissists. And one of their main games is triangulation. You will be used to keep their other fuel supply on their toes. Your messages will be shown to them and everything else that you do so that you can be presented as a desperate stalker to magnify their value to all of their other supply: WARNING: Another thing that Narcissists are doing to up the triangulation trauma and enhance their facade of extreme desirability to their various supply is having Restraining Orders filed against old supply that refuse to leave them alone. I do not know what country you are from and where you currently reside, but a Restraining Order may hurt you tremendously, if it is put on your formal citizenry and police record. A narcissist that tells you it is over, and you persist may file a Restraining Order against you with the police. It is bad t have a Restraining Order on your profile. It may hurt you for applying for additional employment. It may hurt you to travel to other countries, that check for such records. You may be forbidden to own a firearm for your protection, if that ever is needed or desired. You may be prevented for ever working with or adopting or being around children in any manner. A potential future intimate partner may run a background check on you and discover that you have a Restraining Order for Stalking. You do not want all of this over these people that are bad for you, because you do not want to lose your `investment` in them. Cut your loses. It is okay to have both wins and losses in the game of life. I too do not like to lose. I have learned on this site, that We Must Cut Our Loses. And win the long game. It is okay to try to figure out Narcissism. And it may take all of your life, if ever, and that goes for many of us. However, if someone tells you they are done with you, leave them alone. even if they keep changing their minds. Because the games will be played and you will be on the receiving line of these games. At some point a Restraining Order or violence or even death is a possibility, if you keep trying to work things out with various people and various Narcissists. Get out on your own. If not, at least get out when they tell you to go away. You can not force anyone to be with you or love you. It is something that we all have to understand, at some point. The sooner we understand this, the safer we will be, okay?

          2. PRINCESSSUPEREMPATH – that is bad and I am scared (restraining order, etc). So he can throw me like he did in the office and no one does anything about i. To me that is abuse. Standing next to me, invading my personal space, opening a private bag I had, being aggressive, disrespectful, shouting in front of everyone, threatening me to call the police (all this because I asked why I had to go immediately as he asked me to), so he can do all this no problem. He can also wreck my life at all levels, no problem and when I send him emails or call him nazi, then he threatens me with nailing my dirty hide on the wall but again no problem!!! Now, I am the guilty one it looks like. I am just amazed and destroyed.

          3. LG: Yes, if you persist in trying to reach a resolution with this type of person, he can legally Restrain You. No one has to explain anything to anyone. There is no law to force someone to explain how they feel about you and why. And if a person persists in obtaining explanations and resolutions, it is called Stalking. This applies to all of us. If I persist in trying to make a man talk to me, explain to me, and ask him why he lied to me and made promises to me, and if I constantly harassed this man and/or his acquaintances for answers, he can legally restrain me. If that happened, I wouId have a police record in my country and in my state, and I could have difficulty in the future obtaining an apartments, obtaining a security clearance, working in certain fields, marrying certain types of men, traveling to certain countries, etc, because it is a sign that I am not being able to move on, and that I am not emotionally mature, and that I could possibly escalate and become dangerous to myself and others. So, either sue these men, if you have any legal grounds that you can prove to sue them, or leave them alone. You can not do both. Decide. If you have no legal formal relationship with these men, and if they do not give you the common honor that you feel is your due, there is nothing that you can do but to leave such persons alone. And look for men with the values that you desire, such as communication and honesty and compassion, in the future, after you take a break altogether from men right nw, and heal a bit. These men are not that type, that you are entangling yourself with and you are in non formal legal relationships and so law can not help you. Leave them alone, while you still have your honorable citizenship and clean police record, no Restraining Orders, and your health and sanity. All of that has value and is not worth losing, especially these days. And look for marriage. The law will help you at least, if you are married.

          4. Your first two sentences are most accurate PSE.

            1. Even in a normal break-up, you are not entitled nor can you compel someone to explain themselves to you or insist on the continuance of the relationship.
            2. Where a narcissist is involved not only does (1) apply, you also have to deal with:-
            a. That person will never explain because (I) they either do not actually know (L or M) (2) know but will not tell for the purposes of control (G)
            b. That person is designed to reject control – your attempt to continue the relationship and/or gain answers is seen by us as control, it is Challenge Fuel; and
            c. You will be painted black and you risk an adverse response e.g. application for a restraining order and you heighten your emotional thinking which makes matters worse.

            GOSO.

          5. HG – it is not that I am trying to continue the relationship or even talk about personal stuff. I only contacted him to discuss what happened at work.

            Yes, we are not entitled to anything that is human such as communication or discussion but they are entitled to everything i.e. spot vulnerable people, openly admit it, prey on them, lie, cheat, use, abuse, manipulate and destroy others for the sake of it or for fun. I can see double standards here.

          6. Does not matter, that is a breach of no contact.

            Of course there are double standards, recognise that but do not dwell on it. Dwelling on the unfairness is pointless and redundant.

          7. LG: When I say look for marriage, I mean formal documented marriage, not common law marriage, which is more difficult to establish and takes more time to establish legally.. Seek formal documented marriage. I believe that will be best for your sensitive temperament. Being a NIPSS, or a DLS or a side chick is not good for your sensitivity level. All women are not the same sensitivity and need wise. You need to level up and pick more traditional and single men, that look at you as primary marriage material. Or, we will be explaining to you for many years why certain bad men are treating you in this bad manner and in that bad manner, and you want a better future than that yes? I believe you do.

          8. PRINCESSSUPEREMPATH – marriage? have we talked about marriage here? sorry I am lost at what you are saying

          9. PRINCESSSUPEREMPATH – I DID NOT go into this thinking I would be a side dish. For 3 months he kept repeating I was NOT an affair. He knew I did not want an affair. He told me I was serious for him, that he cared for me a lot, that he was falling for me, that he wanted the whole package, that his heart was mine, wanted to be a couple, live together, told me that he didn’t want to spend the next 30 years unhappy and that he was too old to hesitate, explained to me how looking back maybe he had only married in order not to be alone, that for him having a partner was so important…..he told me I was the replacement to his marriage, that being without me was not an option and so on.

            Do you honestly think I went into this to be a side dish? I don’t think any woman likes or deserves this. I disagree with you. Only maybe a married woman who doesn’t want to leave her marriage will engage in this shit.

            I was brainwashed and when he told me he wasn’t leaving his family I sent him to hell but I was already hooked and I asked him to talk, to discuss things. He then said he was so so happy to talk to me again, that he liked me a lot. Yes, I went along with it but ONLY because I could not stop it after he had hooked me.

            I did not go into this wanting an affair. I went along because of what he made me believe.

          10. Double standards and unfairness….
            be thankful that you do not have a child with this man. There is no time when what is best for the child comes into play and mother instincts are a terror to deal with if you are black and he is NPD.

        3. Nunya biz – I simply can’t believe I started as someone who wasn’t an affair at all (that is what he told me), he said he didn’t want that with me, he wanted a serious relationship, couple, live together, partner, bla, bla, bla, 3 months later he tells me he is not leaving his family and because I was hooked by then it turns out I am an affair or I don’t even know what to call it. This went on for months until I left the country hoping that would be the end. After only 3 weeks at home he offers me the job so I went back and we had the same situation – an affair or don’t even know what to call it. And after 2 months this new one shows up, the one who after just meeting turns out to be very serious and he tells me we can be friends. He told me “we can go for dinner and similar as friends”!!!!!! I thought right there and then that I am stopping this bullshit. It felt like he kept giving me levels or labels and changed them as it suited. What hurt the most is when I said “ok, so this means you have been seeing us both?” and he replied “but you were at a different level”. He also added that our thing wasn’t healthy and that he had never promised a relationship. I find it very interesting how he told me this ONLY when the new one came along. Before that he was seeing me and sleeping with me so if he thought it was unhealthy why did he continue???

          Even when he told me that he liked working with me and having me around once I told him I was thinking of resigning for one second he convinced me when I heard those words but the next day I thought “no, these words are not true”. It is like I did not believe those words. I think they were more like don’t leave because now I will have to look for someone else, advertise the position, interview, etc……so that was hassle for him. I left on the 8th of April and the new person starts on the 1st of July so clearly it was better for him for me to stay there and avoid complications, I guess. He was so contradictory – on the one hand he tells me he likes having me around and work with me and then he said there was nothing wrong with just saying hello and good bye at work. The same when he would tell me that he likes spending time with me and then he would see me for 1 hour every 2 weeks. I even told him that his words don’t match his actions. Every time I asked why does he meet me he said he likes spending time with me. Really? then why do you see me for 2 hours every 2 weeks at the most??

          Not sure why you say it will go very bad with the new woman or why you say he would have slept with me later on. I really think he got rid of me and only wanted friends (well, that is what he calls it) because as I told him we are not friends and will never be.

          When I said I was leaving the job he told me it was hurt pride. Is he really retarded???? does he think I have been playing for a year and 1/2 like he has done? and that I can be serious relationship one day, another affair and the next friends???? is this narcissist or retarded?

          And then he tells me last week he is not talking to me and not to dare call him after the nazi email I sent him. Well, even before that email he had already blocked me everywhere and not talking anyway.

          I have no clue about these situations and individuals but do you think he will try to talk to me again? or whatever? For me, it is clear he will not.

          1. Hi LG. I hope you are doing ok.
            As for if he will try to talk to you…
            He is a narcissist so he owns you in his mind and the relationship does not end. He could or could not contact you at any time as it suits him. It doesn’t matter in a way, what matters is that you have precautions in place, that you block him out of your life, that you are prepared if he contacts you to not respond, etc… because whatever he says is bullshit. You getting wrapped up in his bullshit is a no-win for you. It carries a risk you could believe what he talks in circles about or makes up, it carries a risk it leaves an opening for him to mess with your life more than he already has. It will go bad for the new woman because he is a narcissist and will always do the same things he is doing now. He will say to her all of the things he said to you and they will not be true. Every day he leaves you alone is a good day and gives you time to think of other places in your life to put your attention and energy. If you heal enough you can look toward a relationship with a normal person living a normal life who doesn’t make you feel like you are on a roller coaster.

          2. nunya biz – I had sent an email to all my colleagues in the office on the 28th of May to say good bye as the sociopath didn’t let me do it due to how he threw me out of the office in April. I sent the email to say good bye and also to let them know what happened that day as some of them were not in the office (the ones who were heard what he said to me that day). I made it clear in the email that I resigned and that then he did that just in case they were told something different.

            No one had replied to me and yesterday someone new started in my position. Suddenly I get an email from one of my colleagues saying he was sorry and that he had no words. Isn’t it weird to reply on the 1st of July when I sent my email on the 28th of May?

          3. LG, I know what you mean, that sort of thing can be upsetting. What I have tried to think over the years, having been through some frustration of wanting people to see me for who I am, is that I have to let that part go. Narcissists try to hijack perceptions. So you end up in a situation that is confused and perceptions are blurred by his design. There is something of “smearing” in what he did.

            But one of the reasons I *try* to let go of control of others’ perceptions is because of what I have learned over time. There are times people’s thoughts are completely different than what I thought, so while they may not be saying anything it may not reflect how they see things. It’s disappointing, I know, because you would think they could be supportive in your horrible circumstances. But people are people and mess things up all the time or maybe haven’t seen something like that before or don’t have the experience or don’t understand narcissism. In the last case they may have emotional thinking like you have and think that he wouldn’t say or do the things he’s doing unless he has a reason, so that makes them question things. I’m glad that person did you send you an email. Sometimes it’s good to give time and space and let things process. People may not want to make a mistake in deciding who is right or wrong. He may be further clouding the facts. I would try to focus on letting go of what their perceptions are and accept the kind email as an indication of the support that you should also give to yourself.
            Your email that you sent sounds factual and reasonable. Another thing to keep in mind is that you had this problem and stated the situation plainly. People may have their eyes open to the issue now and if anything else happens it may be more obvious because of it.
            I don’t know what your colleagues see, but here is an article from HG regarding expectations about the perceptions of others:
            https://narcsite.com/2019/06/14/why-cant-they-see-it-too-the-narcissists-facade-at-work/comment-page-1/
            If further things come up and are confusing or you have decisions to make you should talk to HG and keep things as good for yourself as you can.

          4. Nunya Biz – Does anyone know if an article about exposure post discard has been published yet? I read one about exposure in the devalue stage saying one would follow for the post discard but haven’t seen it.

            Now after consulting with HG it looks like this guy is upper mid range somatic 🙁
            Not sure if anyone could forward any articles related to this kind

            I can’t believe this is happening 🙁

            I am painted black, I believe and I am dead. I have read some reactions they have when you try to contact this kind and yes, they are like the ones he told me when I called him a few weeks ago to talk. He said I am nuts, a complete nut case and that if I dare call him again after the email I sent him calling him nazi he will nail my dirty hide on the wall. Back in October he also hung up on me and told me we would never talk again or meet. Again like the article mentions I was told he didn’t want to talk to me, to not contact him, that he didn’t want further communication with me, etc……well, at least that time after 10 days we got to talk and the story started again but now I believe I am dead for good.

          5. LG,
            Glad I saw this…

            I’m trying to figure out how to convey this to you in a way that doesn’t sound unkind, because I feel for what you’ve been through… but what I want to emphasize (for your own protection/well-being) is that in this particular situation, being “left for dead” (figuratively speaking, of course) is what you want!

            An Upper Mid-Ranger will have some degree of calculation to his acts of manipulation/abuse/harm… and this narcissist (from what I’ve had a chance to see you’ve written on him) is all about his façade/not being exposed for all his dirty deeds… so he could get REAL ugly — even uglier with you — than he’s already been.

            It doesn’t surprises me that he’s a Mid-Ranger, but it does surprise me a bit that he’s an Upper Mid-Ranger… until I remembered where you are in his fuel matrix (DLS). This is what makes him especially capable of ditching/punishing/being cold/cruel to you as he did, in the end.

            I hope you are beginning to see this as someone to get far away from… it will only get worse. He used you — I’m so sorry — but you do *not* want this narcissist to cause you further pain.

            You can heal and learn from this, which is a hard lesson — but it can ensure you take better care of your own needs & grow stronger, overall.

          6. Hoovers can be benign or malign, LG, and I hope you know you are best off being far away from him mentally and physically, permanently. If he tries to have anything happen against you, any accusations, any work related legal problems, etc… that is a malign hoover. And watch out for proxy hoovers as well, where he may not understand his own conscious intentions, but he could tell someone else they need to contact you for whatever reason he deems necessary… still a hoover. You have to look at those things for what they are if they happen.

            I found this by going to google and typing “narcsite exposure discard”
            https://narcsite.com/2017/07/28/exposure-during-escape/

            I don’t have other links, LG, maybe someone else can post some links for you, but there is stuff around about the somatic cadre’s reactions to various situations, if I recall, and also on the schools, so upper midrange should be around in various articles as well. Maybe look at some books like “Chained”, “Sitting Target” and “Fuel”. And read about hoovers. If you run through those you should have some better ideas of what is going on in his mind and why you should avoid it and know it isn’t what you understandably thought it was. I think in his world he has to believe you are crazy and that he is the one ending communication for that reason. It is hard to disengage from the thought process that you need to sort it out or convince him that you aren’t crazy, but on the other hand, life is so much easier if you disengage from it, arguing with a crazy person’s delusion gives it fuel.

      3. LG: Caught your comments on the Narc Magnet thread. I am now getting increasingly concerned with your welfare.

        Bottom line; this dude has fucked your mind royally. Your ruminations are now very self-evident. There is nothing wrong with this but you need help, lovely. I also caught that the audio consults did not quite work with you.

        I get that. One of the ‘Sins of the Empath’ is a need to over-explain our position. I am guilty of it too. I am now going to recommend if you can, having another audio. This time, write down precisely what you want to ask. Be clear. I’ve had maybe five or so audios with HG. They vary in content from time to time. Sometimes it’s about intimate partners, sometimes it’s actually the Worldview that becomes important. All have been vital to where I am now.

        However you decide to go ahead, it’s really important to be organised to get the best out of them. Very happy to give pointers but I will be frank. Your particular set of circumstances bothers me.

        Keep well. x

        1. Renarde – really concerned with my welfare??? why?
          I did an audio consultation and a narc detector. Clearly, not enough time for discussing things with HG but I am not in a position right now to continue with consultations. If you read my post/story you will know that I lost my job (the job this guy offered me) because of the situation with him. I resigned because I couldn’t take it any more being there with him after only 3 months and then he threw me out of the office like a criminal shouting and threatening me with calling the police if I didn’t go in front of everyone.

  10. I am not sure who is here now. I can barely breathe. As you may have read in my post this guy threw me out of the office shouting in front of everyone and humiliating me just after I resigned. A few weeks ago I wrote an email to him and included his daughter telling him he is a nazi. I did this because no one has ever told me anything about this behaviour on that day.

    This is what I wrote in my original post:

    At the beginning of April I go to work and I receive an email from him copying HR and my colleague saying I had to hand in the key today and that my services are no longer needed there although I would get paid for the month of April. I responded by email asking the reason why copying HR and stating that he had confirm my departure as of the end of April. He came to my desk angry and shouted in front of everyone to give the key and leave. I said I wanted a reason. He said he doesn’t have to give me a reason. This with the whole office listening. He switched off my computer and I said I had to close my email. He removed keyboard and mouse aggressively and told me that was the company’ s property. I told him whatever he had to tell me to do it in private. He didn’t. He continued talking to me like this in front of everyone. By the way, I continued to do my job as usual even if I informed I was leaving at the end of the month. I asked for a reason to ask me to leave like this. Next thing was ” I will call the police if you dont go now.

    Today I called him to see if we could talk about things and he said that he is not interested in talking to me and hung up.

    Then I received a text saying: “don’t you dare calling again after sending your Nazi email to my daughter or I will nail your dirty hide to the wall” (not sure if he meant head instead of hide).

    1. Laura, what did you want to talk about with that guy?
      He is violent, insults you, humiliates you, triangulates you, tells you he wants nothing to do with you and you still phone him to talk about things?
      Aren’t you angry at him?
      Are you “in love” with him?
      Do you think you did something wrong and feel guilty?

      1. Lou – I don’t know. I just felt it was better to talk things out rather than being like this. Yes, somehow I am angry but also ending things without talking is not good. I am so confused. I wanted to expose him in retaliation to what he did to me in the office that day in front of everyone so I emailed him calling him nazi for what he did and copied his daughter. Ok, today I called him and he simply said “I am not interested in talking to you” so I thought that was it. But then minutes later he sent that text ““don’t you dare calling again after sending your Nazi email to my daughter or I will nail your dirty hide to the wall”.

        Is that a threat to kill me?

        1. It is clearly a threat and you’d better stay away from him and concentrate on your emotional and mental well-being.
          If he is a narcissist, you can’t talk things out. You’re painted black.
          Don’t contact him. Concentrate on fighting your addiction to him.
          Hope you’re having your consultation with HG soon.

          1. Lou – but this threat, it is a threat to kill and also comparing me to animal’s skin!!!! I mean, surely there are other types of threats. This is quite creepy and sadist.

          2. When he sent that comment yesterday about nailing my dirty hide on the wall, I told him that this was a physical threat I could use as proof. Immediately he said “really??? are you still in this country? because if you are, the lawyer I contacted will do the job for me. The nazi email was your mistake. Even if you are hiding out in your country it will work, it just will take a bit longer”. At the end he said “I will however find out if you are still here only to learn if it will take weeks or months to get the laswsuit going.”

            He told me he had given me time to think about leaving the job and used my past experience with a previous relationship I had told him about, in which the guy lied to me all along, to say “now that story with that guy makes sense”. The few messages he sent me yesterday, in all of them he kept repeating “you are a nutcase, a complete nutcase”. I told him my mind was at ease, then he said “mostly most nutcases are”. It was degrading reading such things.

            I am scared.

          3. LG,
            Lou has been doing a wonderful, patient job talking to you, but I just want to interject *once* to say that the safest thing you can do is stop all forms of communication with this abuser.

            You keeping this up with him just makes him feel like you’re threatening the con game that is his life… and no good can come from that. Getting even with him/standing up for yourself is not anywhere near as important as your sanity & safety — not worth it.

            And I’d talk to HG as soon as you can.

            Best wishes to you.

          4. LG, as I said before, if this guy is a narcissist, you are painted black in his mind and he is exerting control and superiority over you with threats and put downs.
            Caroline is correct, the best thing you can do is not have any contact with him, narcissist or not. You need to stop second guessing yourself thinking about his decent, loving side and/or what you may have done wrong that could justify his bad treatment of you. It does not help.He is not going to give you clarity or answers. You need to concentrate on the facts that he is not good for you, clearly, that he doesn’t want you in his life, clearly, that you are an emotional and mental wreck and that you need to recover your sanity. He won’t help you do that!
            Stop dancing with him.
            GOSO.

          5. Lou and everyone else- I finally had the consultation with HG Tudor today (I was wondering whether he would tell me in case he is not a narcissist as well and he confirmed he would tell me if it was the case) and the thing is yes, he is a narcissist for sure. I feel much more relieved because going back and forth thinking one minute he is and the next that he might not was driving me absolutely crazy. Now, I have just booked a Narc Detector to find out what type of Narcissist he is and that way have more insight. One thing I am starting to wonder now that I feel more relieved with the new knowledge is whether I could have continued working there. I wish I would have gone through the consultation much earlier when I was still working there. Perhaps, that way I would have accepted what he is, leave the personal stuff completely out and at least not lose my job. Losing my job as I resigned due to this whole emotional thing is something that is affecting me badly.

          6. LG, I am glad you had your consultation with HG and that you have had the confirmation he is a narcissist.
            Don’t regret not having known what he was before you quitting your job; most probably working with him would have made matters very difficult for you. It is better like that. You always need to GOSO and maintain a strict no contact to recover and heal.
            Keep commenting if you have the need.
            Take care.

          7. LG
            Glad to hear you’ve had the consult and that it has given you some relief and helped you to focus. I understand what you are saying about the job, but the positive is that being at a distance from him is going to be beneficial to you while you sort all this out. HG has got your back with the information and strategies you need to get through this and that’s why we encouraged you to consult. The very best to you.

          8. LG,
            I’m very glad for you that you now have this clarity. With a narcissist, no matter how you think it *could* have gone better if you knew sooner, you’d still be working for a narcissist, and he’d still be trying to manipulate you on-the-job. It would have ended up affecting you in a bad way, no matter how you conducted yourself, especially since you already had the personal entanglement with him. The end result would probably have been the same too — it would just have taken longer, and the toll it would have taken on you would have been even greater.

            You can put your effort into securing a new job now, instead of being in a position where you are emotionally being played each day at work… really not worth it.

          9. LG, Happy to hear you had your consult with HG. I truly believe it is best you left that job. Now you can move forward and start fresh. Remaining there would have made it far more difficult and you would have been more vulnerable to hoovers and other abuse.

            In case you have not read these yet, please click on Prime Articles below the header above and read Post Discard Battle Part 1, Part 2, Part 3. You may also like this:
            https://narcsite.com/2019/04/27/how-your-emotional-thinking-creates-excuses-4/
            Use the search function to find additional articles of any kind. I am sure your questions and topics will vary as you go through the healing process. I feel certain one day you will be very happy that job and that man are no longer a part of your life. Wishing you the best.

          10. I had the consultation with HG. Ok, now he is a narcissist. The reason I really called him last week, as I explained, was that I was trying to get my job back (the one he had offered me in December). First of all I keep wondering why he offered me the job once I had left his country in November 2018. I was only back home for 3 weeks and he asked me if I wanted the job. It is true that the person who was working there just left the company and he knew I was looking for a job. I took it. I felt he had saved my life. I wasn’t thinking so much in emotional terms or a relationship with him but about the job. Before I left his country in November he had already told me that he was certain we would see each other again. I didn’t pay any attention to that because to me it was impossible – how could that be if I was now going to be in a different country. Then weeks later he offered me the job and when I arrived in his city to work there he told me “see, I told you we would meet again”. He also told me he gave me the job because he was looking for someone and I was looking for a job so it was a win/win situation. He added that he he had offered me the job because it was better to have me there than in my country. This last bit…I don’t know what he meant. We were still involved at a personal level and the first two months I was there he was very nice to me, helped me with everything….then in March he came up with what I told in my original post about a new woman….and that is why under the emotional turmoil I found myself immersed in I decided to resign. It was not only a new woman but also seeing that he had been with his wife, with me only on a Monday and with this new woman 4 days later to then tell me that he basically had been with her and me at the same time (plus wife) but that it was at a different level. Then to say that once he saw it was mutual between them he stopped seeing me (so I thought he clearly was implying that if things with the new woman wouldn’t have worked out he would have kept his wife and myself). He told me we could be friends and we could spend time and go for dinner and similar but only as friends. I couldn’t make it. I couldn’t continue working there. I was heartbroken and I resigned and then he did what I explained in the original post in the office.

            I have been regretting enormously having left my job because this way now I have lost everything due to him. That is why I called him last week and that is when he told me he would nail my dirty hide on the wall if I dare call him again after the emails I have sent him, especially the email where I called him nazi (due to the way he threw me out of the office) copying his daughter.

            I am destroyed having lost that job. I thought ok, if now I know he is a narcissist I could stop the personal part and still continue with my job.

        2. In his fucking dreams. If he’s a Middle he would shit his pants if a Greater (Or a SE!) turned up. They are absolutely pathetic.

          He’s causing drama. He knows what your response would be. That’s why he said it. To frighten you. And that’s not on.

          Most people are moral cowards. They like the easy way. Even if it means that others’ get hurt. It’s very sad but true. This is especially true of the ‘middle classes’ who are frightened they have much to lose as most of what they have achieved was not based on hard work but by ripping others’ off. The vast majority of them have never had an original thought in their tiny, febrile brains. The Middles are far more likely to have attended University and so gravitate into middle management positions. Code for; we shuffle paper around and do precisely fuck all for a very big wage.

          All Narcs know this. Either from an instinctive reaction as most are or from logical perspective as HG says about the Greaters.

          I’m an SE and I find the Middles are very very wary of me. They know the damage I could inflict. If I so chose to. I don’t because they are fucking tits.

          Got a ridiculous and frankly feeble hoover the other day. From a Middle who had premature ejaculation. All he said to me was ‘Hi! x’. I mean – Whut??? Twat.

          LG; see the Middles for what they are. A bunch of malodorous toerags who skirt on the edges of society. Always playing the big man but rarely have any fucking balls to back it up. AND! The males bully females in exactly the way you have described.

          Quite frankly, I wouldn’t piss on a Middle if they were on fire. I rather fancy I would dance naked around them, chanting old witchy songs. That would fuck them up. They HATE the thought they are going to hell, you see. It worries them.

          So send them there (given enough time for your healing). You have far more power than you think.

          1. Renarde – Renarde – I just got a bit lost in what you replied. You stated: “He’s causing drama. He knows what your response would be. That’s why he said it. To frighten you. And that’s not on.”

            Is this about the comment he made of nailing my dirty hide on the wall? or about what he did to me in the office?

            I can’t see the mid range for what they are because I haven’t read enough to know this kind.

      2. I had the consultation with HG. Ok, now he is a narcissist. The reason I really called him last week, as I explained, was that I was trying to get my job back (the one he had offered me in December). First of all I keep wondering why he offered me the job once I had left his country in November 2018. I was only back home for 3 weeks and he asked me if I wanted the job. It is true that the person who was working there just left the company and he knew I was looking for a job. I took it. I felt he had saved my life. I wasn’t thinking so much in emotional terms or a relationship with him but about the job. Before I left his country in November he had already told me that he was certain we would see each other again. I didn’t pay any attention to that because to me it was impossible – how could that be if I was now going to be in a different country. Then weeks later he offered me the job and when I arrived in his city to work there he told me “see, I told you we would meet again”. He also told me he gave me the job because he was looking for someone and I was looking for a job so it was a win/win situation. He added that he he had offered me the job because it was better to have me there than in my country. This last bit…I don’t know what he meant. We were still involved at a personal level and the first two months I was there he was very nice to me, helped me with everything….then in March he came up with what I told in my original post about a new woman….and that is why under the emotional turmoil I found myself immersed in I decided to resign. It was not only a new woman but also seeing that he had been with his wife, with me only on a Monday and with this new woman 4 days later to then tell me that he basically had been with her and me at the same time (plus wife) but that it was at a different level. Then to say that once he saw it was mutual between them he stopped seeing me (so I thought he clearly was implying that if things with the new woman wouldn’t have worked out he would have kept his wife and myself). He told me we could be friends and we could spend time and go for dinner and similar but only as friends. I couldn’t make it. I couldn’t continue working there. I was heartbroken and I resigned and then he did what I explained in the original post in the office.

        I have been regretting enormously having left my job because this way now I have lost everything due to him. That is why I called him last week and that is when he told me he would nail my dirty hide on the wall if I dare call him again after the emails I have sent him, especially the email where I called him nazi (due to the way he threw me out of the office) copying his daughter.

        I am destroyed having lost that job. I thought ok, if now I know he is a narcissist I could stop the personal part and still continue with my job.

        1. Hi LG. I see your ET is still very high. This guy offered you the job because he was probably infatuated by you and wanted to have you as his appliance. He seems to have multiple sex partners constantly so he is constantly hunting for new fuel appliances. You were one of them. The two months he was nice to you was your golden period.
          By resigning you probably made him feel he had lost control over you and he recovered said sense of control and asserted superiority over you by throwing you out of the office in the way he did.

          Have you read our previous replies to you? I think at least three different people explained to you how it would have been impossible for you to work with him. He is a narcissist, probably a lesser, and you were his IPSS. You were already broken-hearted when you quit your job. No contact is the best strategy.

          Keep reading. You will find the answers to your doubts and questions in HG’s books and articles.

        2. LG, this is a common problem in an abusive dynamic. He gets you so upset you can’t function and your understandable perception is that the only way to stop the upset is through him. It keeps you bound. It isn’t true, you have to go against your instincts and look the opposite direction for solutions. It is difficult, that’s why people get into such terrible situations.

          1. nunya biz – the problem here is that it is not only at a sentimental level. He gave me the job and I don’t have one. Ok, now that I had the consultation with HG (and I wish I had had it much earlier) and he told me he is a narcissist then I think I could better separate the personal side and the working side. I left the job because after only 3 months there he came up with this new woman and what I explained above making me feel I was a lower level and so on. I was heart broken, in a foreign country and alone so I couldn’t manage staying in the job and I left. The last thing in this world I would have expected is what he did in the office that day after I had already resigned. That broke me in a billion pieces. He did not need to do that as I had already resigned and if he wanted to send me home, which is fine, he should have done it in private and not like he did it. I had no support from anyone and even when I told HR in the company they did nothing or said nothing.

            Now, that I know what he is I thought I could try to go back just for the job leaving the personal side aside. It is bad enough how he broke me at a personal level but to see I lost my job too because of him? At the time when I told him I wanted to leave the job he even told me himself “don’t rush your decision, I give you time to think, you know you came here because you had no job” and he was right. It is not like he fired me. I resigned myself just because I couldn’t make it at the time. I would have needed time out of the job to look at things from the distance, to talk to HG Tudor and perhaps could face things differently. The job was in my hands and I threw it. I needed that job and now I don’t even think of him so much in terms of our involvement at a personal level but about losing my job due to the situation. What I don’t get is his way of acting in the office that day. That broke my heart and soul.

            And that is why I called him last week. I only wanted my job back.

          2. LG, he would have continued extracting fuel from you had you continued in that job. Yes, maybe it would have been better to resign once you had found another job, but you would have needed to change jobs anyway. Stop regretting your decision; it does not help you at all doing so. You need to concentrate to have your ET (emotional thinking) under control and search for another job. Look at it as an opportunity and a lesson. Don’t get stuck in anger and resentment. I know it is difficult not to have those emotions; just do not give them too much energy.
            Good luck.

          3. LG, just want to add that very probably your ET is tricking you into thinking that you could have been able to deal with your narc in the workplace had you known he is a narc. Very probably, he would have made your life very difficult and emotional because he would have continued to engage with you one way or the other and mess with your feelings towards him and the situation with his wife and new IPSS.

          4. Such a good point, Nunya Biz — to go *against* your instinct/natural tendency that the solution to “feeling better” is to go back to the source that’s actually causing the pain.

            I think empaths (because of our true ability to forgive/make right/even help heal others’ miseries) feel like all it takes is connecting back up with whomever & all can be worked through/will be fine… except that goodwill comes from us, not the narcissists.

            Narcissists don’t care about making things better. They just want their fuel.

          5. LG, I think your situation makes perfect sense from an empath perspective. I also really believe that you did the right thing by resigning. The reason you resigned makes sense to me also. He is a narcissist. He wanted you to feel upset, it is fuel, feeling hurt by triangulation is normal and it is meant to hurt you. Don’t blame yourself for reacting the way he wanted you to react. He did want you to stay and that is the wrong thing.

            Lou has done an amazing job being supportive here and I second her thought that you may feel like you could have averted disaster, that is an empath thought, it is emotional thinking. I would add that the situation could even have gotten worse. He could have gotten you into a situation with further triangulation, he could have resumed the relationship and continued to see her, his blow up could have happened at a different time in a different way after you were enmeshed even further. If anything his blow up tells you that you were right to leave.

            Your resignation wounded him and he knew he lost control. And look at how he responded, he cannot tolerate the lack of control over you. It would have come about one way or another no matter what you did, because you are not a narcissist.

            Lou said, “I think at least three different people explained to you how it would have been impossible for you to work with him.”

            That is logical thinking. There is nothing you did or could have done to deserve his outburst and attempt at asserting control over you, the appliance.
            Emotional thinking will have you questioning if you are the one who caused your problems and if you should have handled it differently. He wants you to do that, in his mind you should have handled it differently. But he is a narcissist and sometimes you doing what he wants means you are crying, distraught, and hemorrhaging emotion, apology, fuel and your soul his direction so that his wound is healed. It is not a good place for you and he cannot stop seeking your fuel, you are not a person you are a fuel provider and his response is NOT NORMAL it is disordered. I am so sorry about your job, there are many many people being financially abused by narcs as we speak, some facing homelessness because it’s “appease the abuser or drop my only support” (they isolate you too). If you are able and it is within your means I think you should consult with HG again soon, maybe a narc detector so that you can further fortify your understand with LT what is happening. There is more to understand with his school and cadre. Do you have a support network? We are also part of a support network for you here and so is HG in his unique and invaluable way.

          6. NUNYA BIZ – You said “his blow up could have happened at a different time in a different way after you were enmeshed even further. If anything his blow up tells you that you were right to leave.”

            Why his blow up is telling me that it was right to leave? If I hadn’t left he wouldn’t have blown up like he did in the office.

            He asked me to think about it, to not rush to leave the job, he didn’t want me to go….:(

          7. Thank you Caroline, I so much agree. I am worried for LG she is living the definition of the problem right now in an acute way. “Why can’t we just work this out like reasonable adults?” and it’s so hard to understand he cannot love on just a basic human level that prevents this kind of harm. It is so painful to accept this from someone you cared about. She is not unlovable or at fault, which I think tends to be one of our default explanations because it does in some way fit the criteria of a logical explanation. In some ways it might be easier for me to believe I did something wrong because it offers me an avenue to fix the problem. HG offers a more realistic way of gaining that control, which is to reduce ET and to sever ties completely. It hurts, but at least it’s doable, whereas altering my behavior to suit the narc is impossible and can only harm myself in the long run.

            LG, you are important. Save yourself. Be your own parent and child, tell yourself you are beautiful and worth protecting.

          8. Yes, I so agree that self-love is so key, NB. I feel so ill-equipped when reading of this type of blatant, humiliating abuse…I get so inner-pissed, and seeing it all spelled out like this almost makes me feel dizzy.

            As LG flies quickly through all this info, I’m still stuck back at the very first few offenses, like I’d have had visions of kicking him in the shins by *then*! It further emphasizes that the type of narc very much targets the type susceptible to that narc, in ways they can get away with…I know that’s a simple thought, but it made me reflect in a variety of ways today.

            I’m not saying I’m immune to narcissists (not at all)…I am to *this* type that I’m reading…But I’m not to the more subtle, long-patient game play. So it’s important to know our own weak spots — and what makes us tick too.

            I was just thinking: Logic + Boundaries=More Self-Love/Self-Respect…
            (Working on the logic — implementing boundaries off that — and then more self-love is rooted + deeper)

            [This is just a suggestion, LG, but in your next consult, maybe you want to focus on *you* first/your breaking this down with HG, in terms of logical thinking, if he does that]

          9. Nunya biz – You say There is nothing you did or could have done to deserve his outburst and attempt at asserting control over you, the appliance.”” I suppose this is in relation to how he threw me out of the office?

            I asked him that day in the office to talk to me in private but he denied it. I mean threatening me with calling the police if I didn’t go!!!!

            I remember entering in his office in the last few days when I suspected there was someone else in all this. You see, first after being with me on a Monday he told me 3 days later that there were problems at home with a son and that he needed to think about us, that maybe we should just be friends, that he had limited emotional resources. I believed him and thought to give him the time to think but something kept telling me that there was something else than just a problem at home. I told him several times that I thought there was someone else something he kept denying. Even one day when I insisted on this he told me “how can you say something like this when I am telling you I have a problem at home?”. On a Friday morning he told me not to worry over the weekend, that he hadn’t told me not yet and he hadn’t decided yet so I was calmer. That same day (something I found later) he travelled to the new woman (married and with kids) and he spent all weekend without answering a single message, something that made me even more suspicious. When I finally insisted again and asked if there was someone else he tells me “I can’t believe you have managed to know before my wife did” and “Yes, I met someone very recently and it has turned out to be serious on both sides”. I asked him if he had been seeing us both (plus his wife) to what he said “but at different levels” and he added “once I found out it was mutual I stopped seeing you”. Clearly, he went to her to find out how things were turning out and since he found out it was going ahead he told me that he stopped seeing me!!!! we had only been together days before. He went to his wife and informed her too and the next day he went off to see the new woman again.

            When I asked him so many times if there was someone else he would ignore me, walk away, told me we couldn’t talk in the office or in the car or anywhere….he avoided me all the time. He even told me “can’t you just stop being emotional?” The same when in April 2018 a year earlier once he told me he was not leaving his family after keeping me there for 3 months making me believe he would he told me after two weeks “you should be over it, it is already two weeks since I told you”!!!!!!!

            I wonder how things would have been if I had continued working there.

          10. Nunya biz – You say There is nothing you did or could have done to deserve his outburst and attempt at asserting control over you, the appliance.”” I suppose this is in relation to how he threw me out of the office?

            I asked him that day in the office to talk to me in private but he denied it. I mean threatening me with calling the police if I didn’t go!!!!

            I remember entering in his office in the last few days when I suspected there was someone else in all this. You see, first after being with me on a Monday he told me 3 days later that there were problems at home with a son and that he needed to think about us, that maybe we should just be friends, that he had limited emotional resources. I believed him and thought to give him the time to think but something kept telling me that there was something else than just a problem at home. I told him several times that I thought there was someone else something he kept denying. Even one day when I insisted on this he told me “how can you say something like this when I am telling you I have a problem at home?”. On a Friday morning he told me not to worry over the weekend, that he hadn’t told me not yet and he hadn’t decided yet so I was calmer. That same day (something I found later) he travelled to the new woman (married and with kids) and he spent all weekend without answering a single message, something that made me even more suspicious. When I finally insisted again and asked if there was someone else he tells me “I can’t believe you have managed to know before my wife did” and “Yes, I met someone very recently and it has turned out to be serious on both sides”. I asked him if he had been seeing us both (plus his wife) to what he said “but at different levels” and he added “once I found out it was mutual I stopped seeing you”. Clearly, he went to her to find out how things were turning out and since he found out it was going ahead he told me that he stopped seeing me!!!! we had only been together days before. He went to his wife and informed her too and the next day he went off to see the new woman again.

            When I asked him so many times if there was someone else he would ignore me, walk away, told me we couldn’t talk in the office or in the car or anywhere….he avoided me all the time. He even told me “can’t you just stop being emotional?” The same when in April 2018 a year earlier once he told me he was not leaving his family after keeping me there for 3 months making me believe he would he told me after two weeks “you should be over it, it is already two weeks since I told you”!!!!!!!

          11. “I wonder how things would have been if I had continued working there.”

            He would have strung you along until he got tired of her. Probably would have “rekindled” things with his wife at some point for good measure. It’s all toxic and terrible for you and you can be in a far more healthy work and personal environment down the road, your goal is health. Your only job right now is to talk care of you, reduce ET so you can do it as effectively as possible and do the hard work of solving the problems logically that need to be solved (finding a job, not contacting him, securing your support system, taking care of your basic needs, etc…).
            It’s no joke, LG, doing those things is hard when you are confused and wound up. It seems like basic life decisions should be easy for everyone and you might beat yourself up, but cut yourself a huge amount of slack, your emotional mind is taking up more space than usual because you’ve been traumatized, and hunker down and focus on those decisions. The worst thing you can do is talk to him. He will instinctively stoke the fuel fire he desires and they can be incredibly shocking and surprising what they come up with. You think you can just meet up with him and have a chat because he sounds so convincing on text? Ambush. Don’t even hope he calms down enough to talk to you, it will just open another door to crazy town.

            As a very mild example: I broke up with a narc and he told me he couldn’t see me anymore because I was being combative.
            ???
            So yes, he kicked you out so he could be the one to fire you, not that you quit. You know it’s not true, but this particular person has been using gaslighting repeatedly as his primary manipulation tactic. It is very confusing, forgive yourself for being confused. And GET OUT.

          12. Caroline – I’m not saying I’m immune to narcissists (not at all)…I am to *this* type that I’m reading…But I’m not to the more subtle, long-patient game play.’ The subtle patient game play is so cunning, so clever, you don’t realise what’s happening especially if you don’t know about narcissists.

          13. ANK,
            For sure… that was my ex-BF (of 3 years)… so very slow & careful. It’s not like red flags… it’s more like pinkish. Lol

            I’ve been traveling with a few co-workers today… hiding that I’m on this site has been challenging:

            “Whatcha doing, Caroline?”

            “Oh, nothing…I’m just on a narc site… I’m an Empath …and you know that guy you all think is Prince Charming from when he came to see me at work? He’s actually a narcissist who still thinks we belong together… Yeah, it’s a long story.”

            No, I did NOT say that (ha)… I just said I’m keeping up on online correspondence.
            -Undercover Empath;-)

          14. A bit confused – what is “this type you are reading” about? the guy I was involved with – what do you mean?

          15. Yes, Caroline, you are right about being targeting by a type, and not only that I’d go so far as to say I’ve targeted them. Not on purpose, not at all, but maybe a better way to say it is that I’ve “been receptive”. Because to my subconscious I probably thing “this is the type of person that appreciates my personality traits”.

            I find it hard to read about it also, because it is so blatant and so awful, but I also feel it is very educational to discuss for me and understand better the thought processes. I can correlate it to the other types mostly. Ha, yeah, I’m impatient too.

          16. NB,
            Yep. And I’m highly resistant, which also attracts a certain type. We can’t win for losing… kind of funny.

          17. LG, it tells you that you were right to leave because it is a disordered to response. Can you see that his response was inappropriate? Exactly, he asked you to stay, you didn’t do what he wanted, he blew up. He could have said that he hopes you fare well in your new endeavors. He looked in your purse, I think you said?
            I don’t know, I get tempted to sock people in the face too frequently. Luckily I have a somewhat effective “death stare”.
            I have gotten into situations where the narc overwhelms me with surprise plenty of times though.
            I think you are not accepting that he is a narcissist. He has a personality disorder. It is further indicated by his response to a perceived lack of control. You didn’t do anything “wrong”, you did what you thought was best in light of painful information about this person coming to light. You are allowed to quit your job anytime you feel like it. He doesn’t own you. His behavior indicates he thinks he does.

            Have you looked around at what sort of behaviors look like normal, non personality disordered behaviors to you? What do you think would be an appropriate response to a person quitting a job?

          18. NUNYA BIZ – One day during the resignation period (I was going to work for a full month before going) I was talking on the phone privately. He wasn’t in the office but the bitch of my colleague apparently informed him. Yes, this colleague is the one that when the guy was throwing me out of the office and threatened me with calling the police if I didn’t go, said “yes, I will call them” (she said). She is no one to call the police. As if he couldn’t do it himself. That hurt me even more, to see her being part of such atrocity.

            He says I didn’t care about the business and that I was on the phone in private calls as meaning that is why he behaved like that with me. And I keep refusing to accept that because as I told him – even if I did wrong to talk on the phone privately one day he could have called me into his office, doors closed and tell me. I asked him when he was shouting at me in public to please go privately and he denied it. When I started there someone had done something wrong and a warning letter was issued to him but a letter and addressed privately to him. But with me, it was done publicly and humiliating me in front of everyone. What he did is open my private bag and throw a paper I had just signed saying I was returning my key for the office. He opened my bag and put it there. He was aggressive and at all times stayed next to me as if invading my personal space. After I left a few days later I receive an email from these two inhumans saying “Dear Laura, we kindly ask you to return to the office to pick up your belongings at the latest 30th of April”. I asked HR to deal with this and told them I would not enter that office without a restraining order first. I was shocked with the “Dear Laura, kindly ask you” after throwing me like a criminal.

            Again you are very right – I also agree with you that I am not accepting that he is personality disordered. I think that is where all my problems stem from.

          19. NUNYA BIZ – Yes, initially he responded normally at me quitting. He said it would be sad and that he would hate not having me there because he likes to work with me and having me around but it was ok. The problem came when he sent that email in which he asked me to return the key immediately and leave when I was supposed to work the full month still. I as a normal person would, asked why I had to give my key and that I wanted a reason. Just as I wrote that in the email replying to his, he rushed to my desk and the explosion happened……him shouting in public telling me he didn’t have to give me a reason, and everything I said he did. According to him this was because the other bitch had told him that I had been on the phone on private calls one day.

            The day I contacted him recently I told him that yes, I had been on the phone privately one day but that even with that he could have called me into the office and tell me and ok if he wanted to send me home, that I had no problem but to do it privately and not in public humiliating me. He said “wake up we are in the real world”. I said “yes, I talked on the phone one day privately but that is no reason to do what you did” and he said “different realities”. No way he would admit that what he did was wrong regardless. If someone else got a warning in writing and this was because he had talked disrespectfully to the big big boss, why did I get this for just talking on the phone? Whatever he wanted to tell me it needed to be done privately, that is my point.

  11. I am not sure who is here now. I can barely breathe. As you may have read in my post this guy threw me out of the office shouting in front of everyone and humiliating me just after I resigned. A few weeks ago I wrote an email to him and included his daughter telling him he is a nazi. I did this because no one has ever told me anything about this behaviour on that day.

    This is what I wrote in my original post:

    At the beginning of April I go to work and I receive an email from him copying HR and my colleague saying I had to hand in the key today and that my services are no longer needed there although I would get paid for the month of April. I responded by email asking the reason why copying HR and stating that he had confirm my departure as of the end of April. He came to my desk angry and shouted in front of everyone to give the key and leave. I said I wanted a reason. He said he doesn’t have to give me a reason. This with the whole office listening. He switched off my computer and I said I had to close my email. He removed keyboard and mouse aggressively and told me that was the company’ s property. I told him whatever he had to tell me to do it in private. He didn’t. He continued talking to me like this in front of everyone. By the way, I continued to do my job as usual even if I informed I was leaving at the end of the month. I asked for a reason to ask me to leave like this. Next thing was ” I will call the police if you dont go now.

    Today I called him to see if we could talk about things and he said that he is not interested in talking to me and hung up.

    Then I received a text saying: “don’t you dare calling again after sending your Nazi email to my daughter or I will nail your dirty hide to the wall” (not sure if he meant head instead of hide).

  12. Lou – yes, I read so many of HG Tudor’s articles but that does not give me the certainty that this guy is a narcissist or sociopath, which is what I am more inclined to think of him. The problem is that people are not qualified to diagnose or know for certain but it is even much more difficult when you are involved in it, when you are the one suffering it, when you cannot see. It does not mean I don’t read, it means I cannot see despite how much I read

    1. The fact that you recognise how difficult it is when you are in it is a constructive step. You have made some progress.

      1. HG Tudor – how does the consultation work? You would need to know the story, which ok, I explained here somehow, but are more details needed? and how is it done? via Skype? how

        1. Through Skype, audio only. You explain your circumstances, I ask questions, you ask questions, I give you all the answers.

    2. LG, I understand. As I said in a previous comment; they do mess up with your mind. I know it is not easy to see objectively while being in an abusive situation, not only because of what the abuser is doing but also because of our own traits and emotional and mental patterns.
      I believe you are reading and I do not believe you are stupid because you are not seeing clearly despite you reading. I really do not. I know how it is.
      HG can help you clear your doubts as to what he is and walk you through those clouds. Maybe he is not a narcissist and then you can stop reading here searching for answers to explain his behaviour.

        1. Oh, I believe he is a narcissist, LG, but it has been said that no one here is qualified to make an accurate or definitive assessment except for HG so I was showing some hypocritical restraint. 😉
          I personally think he is a narcissist, yes. But only you and HG can make a better assessment together, that is for sure.

      1. Lou – back in October he hung up on me and told me we would never talk or meet again. I had been asking him for a few months if he was talking to someone as his online activity was quite evident. He kept denying it asking me why I distrusted him but I was nearly convinced he was talking to someone. So that day he hung up and that was it. I blocked him on whatsapp and he did afterwards. He still sent me an email telling me if I was angry because he had blocked me first before I could do it when that wasn’t the case at all as I did block him first but even if I didn’t, did it matter so much who blocked first or second? Was that all that mattered?

        Then by mistake I wrote to him on messenger. He so coldly and calmly as he didn’t care one bit told me “stop writing to me and stop communicating with me”, “I don not want more communication with you”. Then he added “can you tell me how to block you here because I have never blocked anyone here?”. I was speechless at the things he was saying in such a cool, relaxed manner. He had to send me a cardigan I had forgotten and I asked him to post it to my home country because I was leaving. He didn’t say a word after seeing I was leaving the country after 7 months. All he said is “ok, I post it”.

        1. LG, I know what you describe here is not funny, but it did make me laugh when I read it. It made me laugh because it is all so typical childish narc behaviour what he is doing. He is denying, gaslighting, giving you the silent treatment, etc to keep you hooked, wondering and emotional. It is childish narc behaviour to feel he has the control and “power” over the situation. He is putting you in a shelf too or giving you a corrective devaluation. Although you better check that with HG because I know there are different situations and different terms for each situation and I have not given much attention to some situations.
          All that matters to him is to keep control and superiority; he is the doer not the done to, that is why he gaslights and says he blocked you first when you were the one who blocked him first, and wounded him by doing so, and he puts you down by saying you are the only person he has ever blocked so you feel even more rejected by him and he feels better and heals the wound you caused by blocking him.
          It all looks like very typical narcissistic behaviour LG.

          1. Lou –
            He would text or talk aggressively saying things like “I am not to be prompted”, “I am not good at doing the things someone else expects me to do” or “I hate your questions” or many times telling me “just read what I wrote, you don’t get it, do you?” or “I only do things when I want to”. One day I said that he hadn’t kissed me and he replied “I don’t kiss you in the mornings”…….I was always waiting to see when he would kiss me or when he would say/do something.

            At the start he seemed very concerned with me trusting him. He wanted me to trust him. He would say that it is not a good feeling to be mistrusted. He also told me how he wanted the complete package and told me he wanted to know my dreams, fantasies, fears……one day he asked me what was important for me in life and I said I would tell him. After not even 2 hours he wrote telling me that he thought I was going to tell him and that he hadn’t received my reply yet, that he was eager to know (I hadn’t had time to write the whole thing to him). At the beginning he said “remember when we first talked about honesty?. This is very important to me but it also means I want your trust unless I did something to lose your trust”. He added “something I have learnt in life is that honesty is important”.

            I literally feel like in a roller coaster. I am so confused. Could he possibly be a nice guy after all?

          2. LG, I don’t think he is a nice guy. I tend to think he may be a MR, who has no idea of what he is and truly believes he is a nice honest person. That’s what’s also very confusing; they themselves totally believe in what they say and that they’re good decent people, Their façade is so convincing that you end up second guessing your perceptions about their abusive behavior and wonder if the one with the problem is you.

            Book a consultation with HG

          3. Lou – you say he may be a MR….what is MR?
            You also say “He was giving you the GP Read A Question of Trust.” Sorry, sometimes I get lost with the abbreviations….GP???

          4. LG
            MR is Mid Range (narcissist). GP is short for Golden Period (in the beginning when its all hearts and flowers). You say you have read everything but you don’t know the most basic things in the articles. You need to have a consultation with HG. You appear to be just shopping around to get someone here to tell you what he is and we are not the experts – HG is. What is your plan once you get the answer anyway? If I told you right now he is a narcissist……now what? And if I told you he was not… then what? Whatever he is, he is an abusive shithead.

            Get a consult. You’re driving yourself mad for no reason.

          5. NarcAngel – I know very well what the golden period is and I have read about the different types of narcissists – I just didn’t understand the abbreviations. I don’t have to defend myself because I have indeed read many of HG Tudor’s articles.

          6. Speaking of types of narcissist, the recent article about the Lesser narcissist made me think of your guy, LG. He does seem to have traits of a Lesser.

          7. LG, he was also probably manipulating you to trust him. Narcs do that at the beginning of the relationship. He was giving you the GP Read A Question of Trust.

          8. Hello, LG, I’m sure NA will respond directly, but I don’t think she meant her message the way you may have interpreted.

            You need not defend yourself and I’m sure she did not doubt you reads some articles. I understood her point to be that no matter how many of us reply to you, it is not possible to attain the level of understanding and effective result that you will receive from a consultation with HG.

            The best advice is to have that consultation. It costs about the same amount as 6 midrange lunches and less than one elite dinner, and best of all the benefits last a lifetime. I am truly sorry you are in pain wish you the very best going forward.

          9. FYC
            Your entire post is correct. I don’t dispute that LG read the articles, but rather that she was unable to take the information in because her thoughts at this stage are chaotic. That a consult would be a better option for her because HG can help her to focus on what she needs to hear whereas reading allows the mind to wander.

          10. Exactly, NA. I also enjoyed your truth telling regarding her abusive ex. His behavior was predatory, deplorable and exploitive. HG can accelerate LG’s healing, instead of her taking years to try and process something that defies logic. I do hope as part of her healing she loves herself more, and develops stronger personal values and boundaries to protect her sensitive heart.

    3. Lovely, when I was consulting with a psychiatrist a few months ago, he told me he had never diagnosed a patient with NPD.

      That’s quite the bald statement but I perceive he was telling the truth.

  13. I can’t see what I post or people’s replies to me. I get them and read them on my email but I cannot see here any of the comments I post (except my original post) or other people’s replies to me

    1. HG Tudor – I have to prepare all my notes and questions or important details but I think I am more convinced now about booking a consultation. I am not sure I can keep going with this cognitive dissonance, thinking one minute he is horrible and the next that maybe he is not that bad, thinking one minute he was abusive and the next that maybe that he is just assertive or something else. I feel I am going crazy. I can’t think clearly.

      1. Whilst undertaking preparation is sensible, it needs to be the right type of preparation and you may well find that given your current position that such preparation is not at the standard it should be and/or exacerbates your current problem. I suggest you organise a consultation post haste.

        1. HG, apologies to come in, but I found your suggestion to LG to wait to have the consultation with you interesting (and honest). Is it because you think that her emotional thinking is so high that she would have a hard time to grasp all the information you can give her to move forward and therefore there would be no point in her spending the money at the moment?

          1. I did not state that Lou.

            I explained that if she spent too much time preparing whilst with ET high, it would be the wrong preparation (preparation is crucial as long as it is the correct preparation) and the process of preparing would keep her ET high, thus she would be trapped in a cycle. She needs to consult now to start the process of reducing the ET.

          2. Oh, I see. That makes sense. I misunderstood “post haste”. You actually meant the opposite of what I understood. Thanks for explaining.

          3. Lou – I am not sure who is here now. I can barely breathe. As you may have read in my post this guy threw me out of the office shouting in front of everyone and humiliating me just after I resigned. A few weeks ago I wrote an email to him and included his daughter telling him he is a nazi. I did this because no one has ever told me anything about this behaviour on that day.

            This is what I wrote in my original post:

            At the beginning of April I go to work and I receive an email from him copying HR and my colleague saying I had to hand in the key today and that my services are no longer needed there although I would get paid for the month of April. I responded by email asking the reason why copying HR and stating that he had confirm my departure as of the end of April. He came to my desk angry and shouted in front of everyone to give the key and leave. I said I wanted a reason. He said he doesn’t have to give me a reason. This with the whole office listening. He switched off my computer and I said I had to close my email. He removed keyboard and mouse aggressively and told me that was the company’ s property. I told him whatever he had to tell me to do it in private. He didn’t. He continued talking to me like this in front of everyone. By the way, I continued to do my job as usual even if I informed I was leaving at the end of the month. I asked for a reason to ask me to leave like this. Next thing was ” I will call the police if you dont go now.

            Today I called him to see if we could talk about things and he said that he is not interested in talking to me and hung up.

            Then I received a text saying: “don’t you dare calling again after sending your Nazi email to my daughter or I will nail your dirty hide to the wall” (not sure if he meant head instead of hide).

          1. That depends on what you want to achieve. If you want confirmation that this person is a narcissist and the school and cadre (if he is one) then Narc Detector. If you want to discuss elements of the behaviour to gain understanding, then you should book an Audio Consultation.

          2. LG, I am glad you’re considering having a consultation with HG.
            Just wanted to say I hope you keep commenting. I would be interested in hearing from you.
            Take care.

          3. Lou – yes, I booked the consultation with him. The reason I pisted here is because this letter 42 was like reading my own story. I am literally broken like I have never been before. I lost my job after moving to his country when he offrered it to me. Initially I spent 8 months there but in a city 300 kms away from him. I returned home to my coyntry in Decembed putting am end to everything although we talked on the phone. After only 3 weeks at home he offered me the job and took it as I didn’t have one. Went back to his country in January and by March he came up with the new woman when he was involved with me. I couldn’t take it and resigned beong in a foreign country completely alone. I was meant to end at the end of April and on the 8th when I went to work he did what I explained in my original post. I am traumatised.

            And I wonder – does he love the new woman? He left his family for her. He made me believe he would do that for me and he even told me I was a replacement to his current relationship but then out of the blue after 3 months he came to visit me and said he was staying with his family because it was many years together and he felt loyalty and respect for his wife!!! But we continued.

            He met her very recently and immediately left his wife and me. He said it turned out to be serious!!!! So I can’t stop thinking that if he did all that for her it must be serious. He is showing her honesty and faithfulness by leaving everyone else, something he didn’t do with me.

          4. LG, as I said before, if he is a narcissist, he doesn’t love her, he is just gathering fuel by triangulating, creating drama and saying he has found the love of his life. It won’t work with her either.
            Stop thinking about that, it is a mental trap. You are just putting yourself down. Be good to yourself. Protect yourself. Build your self esteem.

            I hope you will have your consultation with HG soon.

          5. Lou – yes, I booked the consultation with him. The reason I pisted here is because this letter 42 was like reading my own story. I am literally broken like I have never been before. I lost my job after moving to his country when he offrered it to me. Initially I spent 8 months there but in a city 300 kms away from him. I returned home to my coyntry in Decembed putting am end to everything although we talked on the phone. After only 3 weeks at home he offered me the job and took it as I didn’t have one. Went back to his country in January and by March he came up with the new woman when he was involved with me. I couldn’t take it and resigned beong in a foreign country completely alone. I was meant to end at the end of April and on the 8th when I went to work he did what I explained in my original post. I am traumatised.

            And I wonder – does he love the new woman? He left his family for her. He made me believe he would do that for me and he even told me I was a replacement to his current relationship but then out of the blue after 3 months he came to visit me and said he was staying with his family because it was many years together and he felt loyalty and respect for his wife!!! But we continued.

            He met her very recently and immediately left his wife and me. He said it turned out to be serious!!!! So I can’t stop thinking that if he did all that for her it must be serious. He is showing her honesty and faithfulness by leaving everyone else, something he didn’t do with me

    2. LG as the originator of this letter I feel your pain. As Lou says he doesn’t love her. She is just another appliance.
      I said in the letter, if he loved his new source he wouldn’t have been still sleeping with me and even after the last time I slept with him and decided no more, he still tried his hardest for the better of a year and half to get me back into bed. If he loved the new one he wouldn’t be doing that. I asked him why he was still trying to get me when he had her – his reply ‘May be I’m whore’. You said it mate. He can’t have me anymore, but I’m sure he will be trying to hook and reel in other women. Narcs fake it all, all about fuel and benefits. In his case the thrill of the chase, hooking and reeling in women, sex, money (he gave her money to buy out her husband’s share of the house after she divorced him, so technically he owned half the house. She sold it, I’m sure he took half the profits), work related stuff (she does a similar job to him in another establishment so I’m sure he takes her ideas and passes of as his own in his work place). His mother died and he was resentful that the inheritance would be split between him and his brother when he had been the one to look after her – what visiting her in the care home once a month?
      Your narcissist is showing about as much honesty to his new supply as mine is to his. Don’t be fooled, but I know it’s so very, very, hard to stop all these thoughts, feeling that you weren’t good enough for him etc. It knocks your self-esteem big time. I have only just this month reached true no contact stage. It’s been a long road to the shore of the emotional sea. I may be in the sea but I haven’t crossed it yet, I’m caught in a whirlpool – psychologically and emotionally I am in a very low place at the moment. It has to get better with time and distance…….use the physical distance to emotionally distance yourself.

      1. ANK – but as I explained in another post this guy as he told me stopped seeing me once he found out things were going ahead with the new one. He also told his wife and moved out of his family home (married 25 years). He told me things turned out to be serious and that he had met her very recently. I said to him how he had told me that he wasn’t going to leave his family and he said “things changed now” and “meeting this person made me realise I want to leave”. He went to his wife after just meeting this one and told her and also told me. He had slept with me only on a Monday and he was with the new one on Friday. I even said how things can be serious with someone you just meet and he mentioned something like he believes in this kind of thing. Years back he moved in with a woman and after 2 months he returned to his wife. But he didn’t sleep with me once he told me about the new one so it is not the same as your case.

        1. LG, he was probably seeing her far longer then he let on, may be the same time as you. They lie and make things up.

          1. Caroline and nunya biz – You say “As LG flies quickly through all this info, I’m still stuck back at the very first few offenses, like I’d have had visions of kicking him in the shins by *then*! ”

            Do you mean the first few offences this guy in particular made to me?

            nunya biz – you say it is so blatant and so awful – again do you mean what this guy did?

            So I am feeling stupid here.

            You also say that this particular person has been using gaslighting repeatedly as his primary manipulation tactic. Yes, not sure I always see it as gaslighting (cognitive dissonance) but exactly, despite having resigned I fully and utterly feel that he fired me rather than me quitting. That is what is on my mind.

            He told me at the very start that he would keep me in a basement and give me food and drink.

            I also asked him what he thought of me and he replied “you are vulnerable”.

            When we continued talking after telling me he was staying with his family he told me “you take this because it is better than nothing”.

            When I went to work in January with him I asked him why he offered me the job and he said “it is better to have you here than in your home country”. I went home for a week and he said “please, come back”. When I told him that I was thinking of resigning he said “I would hate not to have you in this office”. I asked why and he said “I like to work with you and having you around”. Yet, he met me maybe a total of 5 times in the 3 months I was there.

            At the start, just after meeting the first time he said: “I really don’t want to hurt you or cause distress, both physically or in other ways”. “Please. this is important to me. Why am I scaring you? I could not stand the idea of hurting you physically when we had sex, and it is the same mentally.” “It is not nice to be mistrusted”

            He seemed to be very focused in me trusting him at the start
            He said “remember when we first talked about honesty? This is very important to me but it also means I want your trust unless I did something to lose your trust”.

            He said “you never know, I might have a dark side!”. This is because I asked him why he had said that I wasn’t shocked when he asked me to meet.

            He said “Yet you agree to meet with a stranger for dinner”. “Must be my charms or my good looks”

            Just before meeting in person he said: “Well you could turn out to be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent”

            He said: I am a pretty good observer or whatever you want to call it

            He said: what is love anyway

            At the start he told me “this is not something I do – writing and planning to meet”, “this is not a daily routine”, “I am telling you so that you don’t have the wrong impression of me

          2. LG, while reading this comment, I thought that it may be a good exercise for you to read your own comment and apply what you have read here, what HG has taught us about the dynamic with the narcissist, to each of the points, actions he did with you. For instance, “I had the feeling he had fired me and not that I had resigned (as it actually happened). Try to look at it with the mind of a third person (one that was not involved in the situation) and see what is it that was achieved and done.
            It may help. I do not know. But read your comment and apply what you have learned here.

          3. I miss him – I want him back. I told him he doesn’t know anything about my life (that was last week after his comment when he said he would nail my dirty hide on the wall). Then he said “I would love to keep it that way”, meaning not knowing anything about me.

            What have I done to deserve this treatment? Hell! I left everything to go to work there, I simply couldn’t make it due to the emotional hell he put me through. As if I didn’t have enough with the wife, as if I didn’t have enough with what he had been doing for the previous year, now a new woman rubbed in my face, being told on stupid messages how I was at a different level (and this breaks my heart into a million pieces), being told not to overthink and worry that he hadn’t made a decision yet when he was travelling to see her that very same day just to find out if things were going to work with her and when they did he threw me out like rubbish.

            I had a breakdown. I was too weak maybe, I don’t know but I couldn’t take it and I resigned. The day before he did what he did in the office he sent me a message on whatsapp and told me “you can hand in the key tomorrow and go to hell”, then he blocked me. The next day he did that in the office to me and I was alone, no one to turn to. I could barely stand, shaking, couldn’t look at his face. My last memory was him holding the door aggressively for me to cross it, just like a criminal. I couldn’t look at him. I was scared to see his eyes or face.

            The pain is unbearable. Yes, I retaliated, yes I wrote emails to him calling him sociopath and much more, yes, I copied his daughter but all this was due to what he did in that office.

            And why? why? why can’t things be talked or discussed? why this war? why this hate? why? I can’t take it

  14. LG; he is clearly a narcissist. Why are you still wondering what he is and asking other people to tell you what he is? I understand your emotional thinking is high, but he is clearly very toxic and very abusive. Why are you still doubting your perceptions after all you have gone through? He is an abuser, and you let him abuse you. GOSO and read and read until your ET is more under control and you can see more clearly. Read about co-dependency too. That may help as well.

    1. Lou – I explained above – I am suffering from so much cognitive dissonance and I cannot see clearly. I kind of realise that something was off yet, I keep going back to the nice stuff he told me, what he made me believe he wanted with me for the first 3 months. I do not seem to be able to see with clarity. I get confused and shift between the good times and the bad ones. That is why I came here. I am at my wits end and came here for support, for insight of what others who probably have gone through as well and therefore knowledgeable and also because people from the outside can see it clearly. If I was so sure, if I didn’t have doubts I wouldn’t be posting here.

      1. LG, I understand that thinking about the good things makes you doubt about what he is. HG explains it very well here too; how they mess with your mind, the hooks and how they exploit your traits and wants/needs. But the things you are saying that he did are not normal. It is abuse. I don’t know your story in detail, but I can tell you that what you have shared is not good for you. He seems to be a narcissist but you don’t need the label. He is bad for you. He is married, has a GF now and has humiliated you big time. You should GOSO and exorcise him out of your life.

        1. After days of meeting this one he left his marriage. He was with me intimately on a Monday, told me that if he saw me repeatedly is because he likes me. A few days later he said he had to think about things, that he had a problem at home with his son and a crisis and that he had to think about us. On Friday he told me not to worry, not to over think, that he hadn’t made a decision or told me no. Later I found out that that same Friday he went to see the new one. He clearly didn’t know if things were going to work out with her at that stage and the next week after I insisted if there was someone else as I did not believe all this confusion was about a problem at home or with his son he tells me that yes, that he had met someone very recently and that it turned out to be very serious. I asked “so you were seeing us both?”. He said “but you were at a different level”. He said how when he saw things were mutual with then new one he stopped seeing me, which was right there and then. Then on a weekday he goes home at 11 PM to inform his wife he met the new one and that he is moving out and he did. Years back he moved in with a woman while married and 2 months later returned to his wife and children. He also made me believe he wanted something serious with me, to be a couple, etc……even last November he told me that if he wasn’t committed he would grab a hold of me and don’t let go because I am a keeper. Now in March he does this. Is he serious about this new person? how can he leave a marriage of 25 years after meeting someone for 2 days? what is all this? He also told me he was serious about me and that being without me wasn’t an option…..

          1. LG, he may be serious about this new woman now, but he won’t be in some time. He will fall out of his infatuation with her. He is a narcissist, all what you describe is indicative that he is. I understand that you’re hurting because he hooked your heart with all those nice praising lines and promises. All lies. The proof of this is what’s happening right now. He doesn’t love you. If he did, he would not be doing what he is doing now. It is all fuel. That’s all.
            Don’t let this affect your self esteem. It is not that you’re not pretty or intelligent enough. It is his NPD. Read the recent article 30 truths to the wrong focus.
            He is not good for you. Whatever he promised, he won’t give you, or you will pay a very high price for whatever he gives you.
            Don’t let him mess up with you anymore, Laura.

        2. Lou – how do I know he won’t be serious with her in some time as you mentioned? I see it as such a huge thing to leave a marriage of 25 years just for someone he met so very recently. I mean the minute he found out it was mutual he left his wife and he left me too. He also told me he was serious about me and that of course he didn’t want an affair, that his heart was mine, that he was thrilled to know me and what not, that I was a replacement to his current relationship (his marriage) and that being without me wasn’t an option. Then bang! but the thing is – he never left his family for me. If he did now, that is a sign of being serious about the new person and also isn’t that showing her loyalty and faithfulness if he is capable of stopping his marriage and the “relationship” with me just for her? She is also married and with kids.

          At the start I asked what he thought of me and he said “vulnerable”. He also mentioned that he would keep me in the basement and he would give me food and drink. But what is all this?? I mean what crosses his mind talking like this? When I continued with him after telling me he wasn’t leaving his family he told me “you take this because it is better than nothing”. And just before we met the first time he told me I could be a sociopath trying to kill him while sleeping dreaming of something innocent. ?????

          1. LG; Twilight is right, it is all about the fuel. It is all about creating drama to have potent fuel. He may be serious about her now, but tomorrow, next month or in 5 years he will find another source of fuel because that is what he needs to survive. Maybe he will go back to his wife again, as he has done before. Most narcissists need to have the fuel that infatuation brings with constantly. He was also infatuated with you just like I suppose he was with many others before. I suspect you are not the only DLS he has had, and will not be the last.
            You seem to be suffering a lot because he seems to be doing for his newest appliance what he did not do for you (leave the wife and children). You are suffering because you are not feeling good enough, you are feeling humiliated, because maybe you are in love with him or needed to be loved and he gave you that fake love. Don t. It is not worth it. He is triangulating you and devaluing you to get fuel from you and you are allowing him to do it. This is why I suggested you read about co-dependency too. You need to learn to protect and take care of yourself, physically and emotionally.
            Are you still having contact with him? I f you are, stop it. This is just keeping you confused and preventing you from seeing his abuse for what it is.

        3. When I see that he left his wife and me for her that tells me he is serious about her because he is showing loyalty and faithfulness to her. He also told me that I was serious, that I was not an affair, that his heart was mine and that he was thrilled to know me. But then he did not leave his family despite making me believe that he would.

          I asked him what he thought of me and he said “vulnerable”. He told me he could keep me in the basement and give me food and drink and when I continued talking to him after telling me that he was not leaving his family he said “you take this because it is better than nothing”. Then just before meeting me he told me “you could be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent”.

          1. LG

            Bottom line and I am speaking as if he is actually a narcissist.

            “All is as the Fuel wills it to be.” – HG Tudor

            She satisfies HIS PRIME AIMS in a way you do not.
            Why did he leave his marriage at this particular moment, again HIS FUEL NEEDS are of utmost importance and this particular situation satisfies them in this moment.

            Rejection has left you feeling inadequate and questioning everything, especially the whys. They live in the moment, do and say that which will satisfy their needs within that moment. If telling you what he did cause not only a reaction yet gain control over you, he will do it. He May never have seen you as “the one” yet “one of many” and yes still lead you on with what ever it took to keep you in place.

            Do you understand what Fuel means to them?

            Empathetic/empathic people once attach can and do take things personally when in fact it has absolutely nothing to do with them.
            Being connected and being attached manifest in two different ways. One causes pain one brings acceptance.

          2. LG; narcissists say strange things to create an emotional reaction in people. That is what he seems to be doing when he makes these strange/shocking/devaluing comments. There may be projection and other things in them, but at the end, it is all just about the fuel.

        4. Lou – you asked if I am in contact with him and I am not. He blocked me and I suppose you read in my post how he threw me out of the office in April after I had resigned myself. You also said that he doesn’t love me and clearly he doesn’t or didn’t but does he love then the new woman?

          1. If he is a narcissist, no, he does not love her either. He was infatuated with you, and he is infatuated with her now. It is all about fuel.

            If you have read everything HG has published, you’d know narcissists don’t love. Most may think they are indeed in love, but in reality they are not; they are just extracting fuel.

            I understand why you are wondering so much about whether or not he really loves her, but you are focusing on the wrong issue.

            It is good you are not having contact with him, but I am afraid it is only because he has blocked you.
            I really encourage you to consult with HG, LG, I am sure it will be very beneficial for you.

          2. Hi again LG. I just wanted to add the following:

            Another typical pattern of narcissistic abuse is isolation. He did that with you. He saw you were emotionally vulnerable and brought you in an even more vulnerable position, namely a new country, with no friends or family. The only thing you had there was the job he offered you (and therefore you became completely dependent of him) and his addictive fake love and future faking.

            His put down remark about having you in the basement and feeding you is just treating you as inferior, it is giving him fuel (power and control). It had the connotation of you being a poor inferior migrant.

            LG, please read all HG’s most recent posts (How? Who? Why?, Shiny New and Improved, GOSO) I believe there are answers for you in them.

          3. Lou – the basement comment was at the very beginning. Initially I stayed in that country for 8 months (from March to November 2018) but we were living 300 Kms apart. I was there for another job. In December I went back to my home country thinking everything was finished. He told me that he was certain we would see each other again, but I did not have a clue how. Once I was back home he offered me the job I initially applied for as the person working there had just left so I took it because I had no job so went back to his city in January. I resigned in April as I wrote in my original post and then he threw me out of the office as I explained humiliating me in front of everyone.

            The future faking was from January 2018 to April 2018. This second time I took his job offer he was not promising he would be with me in a relationship as he had already told me he would stay with his family but clearly he was involved with me. As I mentioned he was with me on Monday the 11th of March. 2 days later he told me he had to think about things due to a problem in his family. I thought it was strange. On Friday he told me not to worry, that he hadn’t told me no or made a decision about us yet. Then I found out that that same Friday he had travelled to meet the new one (supposedly new one) and he spent all weekend without answering a single message. I asked him if there was someone else and he said “how can you come up with that when I am telling you I have a problem at home?”. A few days later after I kept insisting he said “yes, I met someone very recently and didn’t know if things were going to be mutual and it turned out to be serious on both sides”. I asked him that he had been seeing us both and he said “but at different levels”. To me he clearly waited that weekend when he told me not to worry that he hadn’t made a decision to be sure things were going ahead with the new person. Then he stopped seeing me and also told his wife that he was moving out for someone he had just met.

            I asked if he cares about me and his reply was “be specific cause you can care about a dog or a car”. I was like, really??? is it not clear when someone asks if you care??? do you need to specify??? that is a simple yes/no answer. The last time I was with him I asked what he likes about me and he said he would tell me one day.

            Another time I asked him what he likes about me. He said “it is better I tell you what I don’t like because I will be finished quicker”. Yet he never told me what he likes, just avoiding the answer. There were times when he said he wasn’t in the mood to talk to me. There were weekends when he wouldn’t even send a text. When I asked him why he doesn’t even say hi, how are you? he tells me he is not like that and to find someone else alike. One day at the start I also told him that he seemed to not be taking the initiative to call me/text me. He hung up on me saying he wasn’t wasting his Sunday listening to this. I was trying to explain myself to something he had said. He literally refused to read any of my messages. He was online and didn’t read any. Told me he wasn’t answering anymore. I begged all night to please listen to me, nothing. In the meanwhile he was online. Next morning after pleading he told me that if he hadn’t replied after the 10th message he wouldn’t reply to the 100.

            He would text or talk aggressively saying things like “I am not to be prompted”, “I am not good at doing the things someone else expects me to do” or “I hate your questions” or many times telling me “just read what I wrote, you don’t get it, do you?” or “I only do things when I want to” or when I said that he hadn’t kissed me one day recently he said “I don’t kiss you in the mornings”…….I was always waiting to see when he would kiss me or when he would say/do something.

            Last October after me questioning if he was talking to someone else as he was always online he hung up on me and told me we would never talk again or see each other. Just after that I blocked him on whatsapp and a few minutes later he bloked me. He then sent an email saying “are you angry that I blocked you first before you could do it?”. I was in disbelief as I had blocked him first and that was clear. I couldn’t anyway believe that his only concern was who blocked first when I was hurt by the whole thing.

          4. LG. all you are saying here that he has done and said to you are things to provoke a reaction, keep control and superiority, create confusion and keep you wondering and emotional. And he is so effective in doing this that you are still confused and wondering what he meant, what he is, even though you say you have read all of HG’s posts!
            You really need a consultation LG. I can imagine your financial situation is precarious, but the quicker you get out of this fog, the faster you will be able to stand on your own two feet financially too.

      2. LG,
        I hate to say that you are making it more complicated than it is, because it IS complicated, but its also very obvious. He is a narc. You were not worth leaving his family for. He didn’t need to. The new woman apparently is worth it to him. He is certainly willing, he just didn’t want to with you. And thank god for your sake. He was seeing you both yes, because he had to make sure she was worth it, before letting YOU go. She is a better source of fuel…she probably thinks he is WONDERFUL, no questioning or arguing etc. He had to keep you around until he found out if she was worth it. She is, and that’s why he was quick to finally drop you. I don’t think there are REALLY any questions here, just a difficulty in coming to terms with the reality of the situation. Truthfully, knowing this about him may help you heal faster. You did nothing wrong. Everything he did, including running off with her and dropping you cold is all textbook.

        1. Liza Pretopapa – what do you mean:

          1. when you say “And thank god for your sake”? why?
          2. “She is better because she thinks he is wonderful, no questioning, arguing, etc?”
          3.”Everything he did, including running off with her and dropping you cold is all textbook”. Textbook what?

        2. Liza Pretopapa – and you say I was not worth leaving his family for….why? and you also say “Truthfully, knowing this about him may help you heal faster”……knowing what about him?

  15. Laura

    I am so sorry you have to deal with this.

    HG can help you understand this situation in a manner that will clear things up.

    I do hope you continue to read his work and keep commenting here, you will find so many that not only understand what you are feeling yet are supportive.

      1. HG Tudor – and how do I know if with what I have provided (my original post) is enough to do a consultation? Maybe more details are needed, more examples of conversations between us, or further information in order for you to tell me what his has been through a consultation.

        1. An audio consultation of one hour duration will enable you to provide significant detail so I can assist you.

    1. I have read non stop HG Tudor’s articles. Yet, I do not know what I have been dealing with. Right now I do not have the financial resources to pay for this. I just would appreciate if someone can give me some idea what this was. Please. Thank you.

      1. LG

        You have taken an emotional beating, try and focus on your needs. The answers will come, continue reading and commenting, it does help until you can consult with HG.

        1. I have read everything he publishes but being involved in it, looking at it from a subjective point of view plus the cognitive dissonance, I can’t understand what I have dealt with. I need some insight.

      2. LG,
        You detailed very well many of his abusive behaviors… as far as your comment that you lack “insight,” you seem keenly aware of how his many behaviors were off & wrong — and also describe how it pinged you at a gut level — so you should trust your intuition/common sense. That’s what keeps people out of danger.

        Whatever it is that you’re asking he is in *particular*, I for one would not be qualified to know (that’s why HG suggested you consult him)… but I think it’s crystal clear that he’s an abuser.

        It’s good you got away from him. He sounds incredibly cold & cruel, and the fact that he caused you such distress shows how harmful he really is.

      3. Hello LG, I believe the difficulty you are experiencing in seeing and accepting your affair partner’s (AP) negative behavior and continuing to reminisce about past positive behavior is because your vision is clouded by your love for and attachment to (some consider this addiction) him. You still long for a different outcome.

        If you have read a great deal of HG’s works, you will know the behavior your AP showed is consistent with a narcissist (N). You know from HG’s writing that Ns do not love. They do everything to fulfill their prime aims (chief of which is fuel).

        I do not have HG’s expertise, but since you cannot yet afford a consult with the expert, I will give you my shorthand answer:

        Your hopes, dreams and empathetic traits were corrupted by the narcissist to lead you down a path that would meet his needs only. Your needs were not considered. It may have seemed during the golden period that he genuinely cared for you, but this behavior is all for effect and used to convince you to trust the N and give him what he wanted. Once the N used up the majority of your positive fuel (the time at which you adored him and never asked for anything nor demonstrated expectations nor asked questions that would require accountability), the N tired of you.

        No N will tolerate any questioning of behavior. Ns are entitled to everything from their point of view. To regain control and quash your questions, he gave you a corrective silent treatment. When his insulting bad behavior did not make you leave, he knew he could continue to draw negative fuel.

        As you know from HG’s writing, Ns are never faithful. Your AP’s wife was likely another empath that was used and discarded, just as you have been. His new victim/AP/Fiancé will meet the same fate. It is only a matter of time. She is no better or worse than you are. She is simply fresh supply. One day she too will be stale and discarded.

        LG, there is nothing wrong with you, but I would recommend working on your injured self-worth/self-esteem and on creating or strengthening healthy boundaries so you can avoid such abuse in the future. It is best not to focus on his other victims. Now is the time to care for you and grieve your loss so that you can heal and move on.

        Indeed, you are VERY lucky your AP moved on because you deserve someone who can offer real love, not lies and cheating. Had you stayed with this guy the abuse would continue and get worse. You are blessed to be out of this relationship even though the breakup is painful.

        I do hope you will save up for a consult with HG. His advice and insight is brilliant and when you are dealing with a narcissist, no other counsel will do. Take care LG. You will emerge wiser and better than ever.

    2. I need help as to what I have been dealing with. As I said, I can’t pay now a consultation. That is why I posted, hoping that someone can give me some insight

      1. You were dealing with someone who clearly saw that you were vulnerable and who exploited that vulnerability rather than be a real friend or lover.

        In the meantime, you have NOT been dealing with yourself. This man told you a truth: You take this because it is better than nothing.

        It seems like it is time to turn your life around, LG. Time to deal with yourself and understand why you are not looking for and accepting better for yourself. There is better than him out there. For one, there is you. And you are not nothing.

        1. Lisk – but as I wrote below somewhere it is not only what he said “you take this because it is better than nothing”.

          I asked what he thought of me and he said “vulnerable”. He also mentioned that he would keep me in the basement and he would give me food and drink. What is all this?? I mean what crosses his mind talking like this?. And just before we met the first time he told me I could be a sociopath trying to kill him while sleeping dreaming of something innocent. ?????

      2. LG
        People here can and will support you, but we cannot give you the specifics and answers that you require. Only HG can give you that, and in a way that is not possible here on the blog. You have stated that you cannot afford a consultation, but given the state of desperation for answers you appear to be in, can you afford NOT to have one? This is your mental health and affects everything you do, so you should make it a priority. Until then, I can only suggest you resist contact with this abuser (and he is an abuser regardless whatever label you conclude that you’ve been dealing with) and keep reading here and listening on Youtube. I hope you find relief soon and can begin to heal.

  16. In December 2017 I had an interview via Skype for a job I applied in another country. I was interviewed and I wasn’t offered the job but somehow the person who interviewed me and I started chatting via whatsapp. We were talking quite a lot. After a couple of days, I asked if he was married by any chance to what he said yes. I thought to stop there and then but he went onto say that he wasn’t happy in the marriage, that he felt he had married that person in order to not stay alone and that he didn’t want to spend the next 30 years of his life like this. Married 25 years and 3 children. (10 years back he had moved in with another woman and after 2 months he returned home because of the children). He told me he was falling in love with me, that his heart was mine, that he wanted to live with me, be a couple and that he was serious about me. We continued talking.

    Coincidentally, at that same time I was offered another job I had applied for in that same country where he lives and where he is from and I took it. This job was in a city 300 kms away from where he is. He told me things such as – “being without you is not an option”, “You are a replacement to my current relationship” and so on. I really believed what he told me. Thing is that after about 2 months he came to visit me one day and told me out of the blue that he was not leaving his family and was staying. Somehow, we continued talking but during the 8 months I was living there he came to see me a total of 5 times for about 12 hours each time. Many times, he wouldn’t reply to my messages on whatsapp, another time I was talking to him and told him that he didn’t seem to have the initiative to call and that I was feeling things had changed. He hung up on me while we were talking and told me he wasn’t wasting his Sunday listening to things like this. He refused to answer my messages for hours on end and never apologised. Then he went onto say that he didn’t do that to people, i.e. hanging up. There were many times I would see him online on messenger and whatsapp but he always denied talking to others. Even at the start I remember twice when he said he was going to sleep at 11 PM and then I would see him online at 1 AM. He would never ask me how my weekends were or what I did despite knowing I was alone in a foreign country and knew no one. One weekend I was sick and he wouldn’t even ask how I was. He said we were not living together and therefore he didn’t have to ask and that he wasn’t my babysitter. If I had a toothache he wouldn’t ask and he would say he is not like that. He always would say he likes me a lot but when I asked what he liked he would say – I will tell you one day or I’d rather tell you what I don’t like because I will finish quicker. Another day I told him I like him and what I liked and when I asked back he said I had described it very well and that he would use exactly my same words.

    I stayed there for 8 months and decided to go back to my country and leave everything in November 2018. He told me he was convinced we would see each other again and I didn’t really understand how since I was going back home in a different country. After one month, in December 2018, while we were talking one day he told me that the person who was working at his company, which was the position he initially interviewed me for, was leaving and if I was interested in the job. I didn’t have a job at the time and I said yes so this time at the beginning of January 2019 I moved to the city he lives in and where he works to work with him. I must say that he didn’t promise a relationship but he never told me there would be nothing between us. In fact, I came back and there was something going on between us including sex. He always would say he was staying with his family and that this would stay that way. For 2 months he was nice to me although he barely saw me – just maybe once every two weeks. In the office he flirted with me when people were not around and he looked happy to have me here. We went twice for dinner and the last time he said we could go somewhere the next time. And I travelled back home for a week to get stuff from there and he told me “please, come back”. I asked why he offered me the job and he said that it was better to have me here than back where I lived in my country.

    He was with me last time on the 11th of March – sex included. The next day I asked if we could have dinner sometime and he started to be really angry saying we couldn’t have dinner every second day!!! – we had had dinner twice in 3 months. He was talking to me in such an angry state to the point he told me to get off the car and that he was leaving with me or without me in it. I was shaking, in shock not knowing what I had done wrong. The times he would visit me he would spend 1 hour at the most, had sex and soon later out of the door. I felt bad, really bad but kept going.

    Out of the blue a few days later after being together and after spending the whole weekend without answering a single message I sent, he tells me he has a crisis at home and that he has to deal with it and follow a certain order but he didn’t want to share details with me. He mentioned something about drugs with his son but my intuition told me there was something else. He told me it was better to distance the situation between us and to be friends. I insisted and he ended up telling me “yes I met someone very recently and it is serious”. I asked “but you were seeing me” and he said “yes, but at a different level”. Then he goes home at 11 PM on a weekday and tells his wife about this and the next day he travels to meet the new woman. He told me the wife was very shocked. He moved out now for someone he met days ago when he had always told me he was staying at home and this was not changing.

    He refused talking to me, walked out on me every time I wanted to talk, shouted and even at the beginning when he was very nice to me one day, he told me he would like to have me in the basement and he would give me food and drink.

    Now I wonder, he always told me he would stay where he is with his family, now he meets someone a few days ago and he leaves when on top of that there are family problems with one of the sons. The other woman married with children too. I don’t know what this has been really and I am leaving this job and country. I can’t work with him anymore and this was a mistake to accept this job. He told me he would hate not to have me in this office because he likes to work with me and have me around.

    From my post you may know I am alone in the country I am in, no friends and no family.

    I gave this person the resignation letter at the end of March that I was leaving at the end of April. He confirmed it in writing, that I would leave end of April. My soul and intuition told me to leave. I could not continue working there. His presence was intoxicating.

    I did tell him I dont want to see him ever again either as a partner, friend as he proposed ( only when it suited him as he already had someone new) or as a colleague. I told him all I think of him and how he played with me and used me.

    At the beginning of April I go to work and I receive an email from him copying HR and my colleague saying I had to hand in the key today and that my services are no longer needed there although I would get paid for the month of April. I responded by email asking the reason why copying HR and stating that he had confirm my departure as of the end of April. He came to my desk angry and shouted in front of everyone to give the key and leave. I said I wanted a reason. He said he doesn’t have to give me a reason. This with the whole office listening. He switched off my computer and I said I had to close my email. He removed keyboard and mouse aggressively and told me that was the company’ s property. I told him whatever he had to tell me to do it in private. He didn’t. He continued talking to me like this in front of everyone. By the way, I continued to do my job as usual even if I informed I was leaving at the end of the month. I asked for a reason to ask me to leave like this. Next thing was ” I will call the police if you dont go now”. My colleague, clearly supporting him said ” yes, I call them. I got my things and he came to the door holding it for me ( I felt escorted like a criminal and I even felt as he would push me if I didn’t leave quickly. I couldn’t do anything.

    He told me at the very start that he would keep me in a basement and give me food and drink. I also asked him what he thought of me and he replied “you are vulnerable”. When we continued talking after telling me he was staying with his family he told me “you take this because it is better than nothing”. When I went to work in January with him I asked him why he offered me the job and he said “it is better to have you here than in your home country”. I went home for a week and he said “please, come back”. When I told him that I was thinking of resigning he said “I would hate not to have you in this office”. I asked why and he said “I like to work with you and having you around”. Yet, he met me maybe a total of 5 times in the 3 months I was there. At the start, just after meeting the first time he said: “I really don’t want to hurt you or cause distress, both physically or in other ways”. “Please. this is important to me. Why am I scaring you? I could not stand the idea of hurting you physically when we had sex, and it is the same mentally.” And just before meeting in person he said: “Well you could turn out to be a sociopath trying to kill me while I peacefully sleep dreaming of something innocent”

    Please help me with your insight. I am destroyed.

    At the start, just after meeting the first time he said: “I really don’t want to hurt you or cause distress, both physically or in other ways”. “Please. this is important to me. Why am I scaring you? I could not stand the idea of hurting you physically when we had sex, and it is the same mentally.”

    Just an example of a convo last year:

    Him: I don’t know what’s wrong with you. Why are you always pushing the way you do?
    Me: I just dont know why there has to be 0 contact
    Me: Not even a text
    Him: And I just don’t know why there constantly has to be contact
    Me: Constant??. You keep saying you dont have the time
    Him: Obviously it’s a big thing if I don’t text one day
    Me: No it is not
    Him: Glad you agree. So please act like it
    Me: But dont tell me it is because you can’t because you can
    Him: Ah. So you are the expert and judge now, I see
    Me: Well no one is that busy to say ” hi how are you?”
    Me: No not expert at all
    Him: If that’s what you want why don’t you find somebody who thinks alike? Because it’s not me

    Me: I find it difficult to understand how you can spend a day with me, have sex with me and everything else and now a whole weekend without even saying “hi”
    I was sick all weekend

    Him: just stop pushing me. I really don’t like to see numerous messages whenever I look at the phone.

    Me: I didn’t push, I only asked

    Him: that is bad, and I feel sorry for you. But there is nothing I can do about it, and we are not living together, so I don’t feel obligated to ask every five minutes how you are

    He also asked ” where is the block button on whatsapp to block you? I can’t find it”.

    Then on messenger he says: “Can you please tell me how to block somebody on messenger? I never blocked anybody, so I don’t know”

  17. @lisk this is so perfect for me! I am copying this on a note to use as a mantra.

  18. I do not think we can blame them, Empaths. So many of them are married, but we get involved with them anyway. So many of them hit us and verbally abuse us, yet we stay. It continues, yet we stay. It worsens: we stay. We didn’t know about love bombing or future faking, and we didn’t think they would say such amazing wonderful things to us, but also to her, and her and her, and then cheat, lie, cheat, lie, etc., we were sitting ducks for it only the first time. After that, we can only say that we chose for it to continue.

    And even the first time they were caught, well we are the ones imbued with the extra sensory perception that lets us know something isn’t right. I know I knew it, and I chose it anyway. I said to myself at some point, “I am better than his ex wife, so he won’t do the same things to me.” This was, of course, arrogant BS, but I have to accept responsibility for it, and for choosing a man who would harm me, and for letting him harm me because I liked the feels, and the change he brought.

    I have removed the consent now, and I am choosing to heal, and to listen now when my instincts tell me something isn’t right. I have been livid angry alternating with weeping broken over the loss of him, but when it all comes down, I have to say I knew, and I chose to go with him anyway. I thank the part of me that knew and warned me. I accept responsibility for my own hurt. He isn’t absolved of the wrong he did, not at all, but my life is not conjoined to his anymore, and to move on I have to accept my own power over what I let him do to me.

    I was a sitting duck, yes, but I also knew because I am an empath. I chose. And I choose something different now.

    And you can choose something different now, too.

    1. I whole-heartedly agree with everything you say here, Caron, especially in terms of self-responsibility.

      I just want to add, for me, at least:

      I deeply apologize to the part of me that knew and warned me about him. I am so sorry I did not listen to this part of me.

      I am also deeply sorry, not for me, but to me, for not protecting myself the way I needed to.

      I now accept my power to protect myself and will utilize all resources (including HG the Invaluable) to that effect.

      This doesn’t mean I will shield myself against any and all comers. I’ll just pick off the narc invaders.

      1. I love this, Lisk. This is you parenting yourself… whether your childhood experience was of parents who nurtured you or not, I believe the biggest thing about being healthy as a person is being able to “parent yourself”/affirm and guide your innermost being.

        You love yourself enough to protect your mind, heart & soul… yes, even soul. It rightly goes that deeply, for empaths…yet, I see you give yourself freedom to live a real life, not cowering.

        Good on you.

      2. Well said, lisk. I have repented to myself as well, for ignoring her and getting her hurt.

      3. I like this Lisk—I’m appalled at times instead of “apologetic” or “kind” to the part of me that allowed the nonsense. I wasn’t positioned to do better/didn’t have the skills to do better. Yes I knew it wasn’t right, but my feet weren’t moving because the synapses weren’t there to propel the needed actions. I scraped the bottom of the barrel for a long time trying to make it work. I should applaud having tried to mitigate insanity for so long instead of beat the shit of myself. I truly thought I had to make it work for the kids. It was a noble pursuit, albeit way off track. I really like the train of thought your post created just now. I truly felt I was acting in their best interest and was willing to sacrifice my health to stick it out. That wasn’t narcissistic—it was selfless but incredibly misguided and unfortunately crazy.

    2. Caron
      Very honest. Yes, you (we) have both power and choice. Choosing something else for yourself is a great way to look at it and to begin to regain control.

  19. Wow. I can relate to SO much of this. “I would have been happy with your friendship only.” Very much my situation. But they come on SO STRONG, so relentless. The attention, the nonstop messages. The callousness he expressed toward his wife and an accident she had. He mentioned the amount of life insurance he was eligible to if she had died, and what a shame it was that she survived. The idea of grieving a dead person – in some ways I’ve pretended the mask died. He did die, in a way. Yes, I know he never existed in the first place but HE DID. I was there, I saw and I felt him. And now he is dead. And what’s left is a shell of a man who is empty and rotten on the inside 😞

    1. Joanne- me too! I can relate too, to a lot of it.
      And the grieving for someone who is still alive. …I read a quote on Pinterest that resonated with me, about burying someone/having a funeral as closure towards someone still alive – so I did!! There’s a spot at the bottom of the garden, which is all weedy and overgrown because it’s near the septic tank (how fitting!) and that is where he is “buried”. I used to go down there and insult it, but I no longer bother. He really is dead to me now.. Funnily enough, I used to call him Hollow Man because of his emptiness….and also Fuckboy Dim when I was feeling particularly peevish!! 😂

      1. Blackunicorn, I’ so happy he’s dead to you, and, near the septic tank… brilliant! I don’t have a septic tank, but when the time comes, perhaps I’ll flush him Lol Thanks for the idea.

        1. Kellyd – flushing definitely works just as well!! I hope you get to do it soon!!

      2. BU
        Perfect location 🚽
        Did you actually bury anything in it?
        The danger (for me) in this “death” concept is that I still look back at those moments with the mask with some level of fondness. So as much as I can separate the two, my ET allows me to ruminate on “good times” even though they were fake 😠

        1. No, I didn’t bury anything. It was more symbolic for me; there was nothing to bury because he had no substance.
          What helped me with memories of the mask was to liken it to me fancying an actor when I was a child. Now I’m an adult I can see I was “in love” with the image, they wouldn’t have been that person in real life, I am more able to separate fantasy from reality…so I try to apply the same reasoning… I was infatuated with an actor, with a character in a book or whatever, that is fictional and not real. It fix the always work but it reinforced the fantasy/reality disconnect.

  20. This one resonates! My sad sack of narc used to have these ‘white knight’ sessions with his train- wreck -sad- housewife -trapped- in- a -bad -marriage friends. Super hero in a cheap suit. He’d meet for lunches, coffees, show concern. Then call me later and coldly dismiss them as ’emotional wrecks’ and ‘heavy drinkers, pathetic’. I still toy with the idea of sending these women screen shots of his nasty commentary about them. I saved EVERYTHING and he knows it. Keeps him in line and scared. I never do send them because it would cause them great hurt. But I wish these women could see how vile he is and how he is using them for fuel. The irony is a man who lives at home with his elderly parent for free (not even helping them out) has no room to talk about anyone. But yes, narcs seem to love female friends with shaky marriages. Unlimited flow of fuel!

  21. Coffees and lunches. Yep. That’s how narcx started it, too, with me . . . and with countless others, I am certain.

    Wish I never got transitioned into dinners.

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