Message Hook

 

 

message-hook

 

The message – whether in text form or through some other electronic medium – is a tempting and ultimately manipulative tool of ours. During our seduction of you we use it to brilliant effect, peppering your day with these short form billets-doux in order to draw you close to us. The glowing compliments sent through letters glowing on your screen. The tingle, the excitement and the smile to oneself on receipt of this message. They are like so many little gifts, each one waiting to be opened by you and the delight spreading across you face as you read the latest missive that contains our rapturous love for you. Each time one arrives you wonder what it might read and you are never disappointed as we sprinkle our fairy dust over you from afar through the electronic devices we are both connected to. You feel wonderful, savouring that rush of appreciation. It is fantastic and memorable and you never delete them, storing up all these heartfelt tributes and declarations. We know you will keep them and most of all when the misery descends you will sit scrolling back through these text exchanges, evidence of a happier time, remnants of the golden period.

As time advances you begin to expect these messages. It is entirely understandable. You get used to waking and seeing a message waiting for you, more welcome than a cup of tea or coffee being brought to your bed. You anticipate the rush and we do not let you down. The content of the message feeding your desire for love, affection and passion.

This repeated sending of messages is designed to condition you. We want you to equate the arrival of the message with pleasure, with affection and with love. We ingrain it into your routine. The first thing you do on awakening is to reach for your phone on your nightstand and look for our message. This is done to make you frequently check your ‘phone during the day to see if there is a message from you. You experience phantom vibrations when you ‘phone is on silent and in your bag or pocket. You pluck it out and check and feel dismayed as there is no message. Perhaps there is but it is not from us and you being to feel anxious as you await your daily hit. Eventually it arrives and you feel the surge of delight coursing through you as we deliver. Little by little, in accordance with our methodology of salami-slicing you start to focus on the relevant device, waiting for the ping, the buzz and/or the flash of light. You keep glancing at your ‘phone, mind unable to focus on the task in hand. Once that message arrives, you open it, devouring it like a starving man given food after two weeks adrift at sea. You spend more time responding to the messages, checking the ‘phone and cultivating ways to keep the flow of messages going so that it becomes the matter which you focus on the most during the course of your day. You wait, watch, check and keep back and forth beginning to will the ‘phone to buzz and provide that message.

Soon you start to prompt them, messaging us first when you have not heard from us. Once you waited a morning, then an hour and now it has become the first thing you do when you wake up. You see no message from us so you message us. We reply at once and the relief washes over you in an awesome way. But then the reply times elongate and that short space becomes a longer pause, a growing hiatus and this prompts you to message again. Oh we know the messages you will send to try to pretend you are not anxious because you have not heard from us.

“I’m not sure if my message reached you, my ‘phone has been playing up.”

“I am struggling for signal here. Did you get my message?”

“Just wanted to check my message reached you.”

“Don’t worry about responding straight away, I know you are busy.”

“Just wanted to make sure everything is alright, no rush, answer when you can.”

The desperation seeps through the ‘phone, the increasing anguish and anxiety tangible and then we release you from your worries and reply which prompts a flurry or replies, your gratitude evident even though you may not write as such. How the fuel flows and it is all deliberate. We have actively structured our approach so that you become conditioned to act this way. The ‘phone becomes the barometer of your day. Early message received? You can relax and enjoy the next two hours until you start wondering where the next one is. Such power is wielded by us through the simple act of sending you a message and we haven’t even started on using it to devalue you yet.

So often you rely on receiving the message but the irony is, you rarely actually get the message.

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380 Comments

  1. This particular guy said that this (sleeping with him) wasn’t the problem. (Because yes, he can talk and I actually asked him, – he is pretty rational and I think truthful — too truthful for my feelings. As I said, I can’t even complain about him.)

    BUT I also believe that men don’t often realize themselves that they are still chasing neanderthals. I have read and thought about that a lot, and it really might be in their genes. Also oxytocin (when present, like, it’s not in psychopaths or autists) works differently in men. 🙁

    So, I have those theoretical thoughts, but in the moment, I just think, we connect. And it might well be that guys think the same, but afterwards really pull away and it really might be too easy.

    But then again, one hears of long term relationships that have started that way. I’ve had one (with a guy who also never made too much effort ever since). So, I don’t know. This new guy is really nice and feeling and cuddling and then it’s like it had never happened. When I’m with him he doesn’t pull away at all. But he tried to insist that we were friends only (while he wanted to cuddle only).

    I met one or two decent guys who said and also stuck to their words, that they don’t “go all the way” with a woman when they aren’t sure that they will want to keep doing that and stay with them later on, because they think that women expect that and feel connected, and men don’t.

    In short: I neither know how to deal with normal guys, nor with narcs. Hurra.

    I do think it’s the better way to wait and watch them for quite a while. Unfortunately that’s not how I work – I want to feel and connect, and I am well aware that’s not how most men think in the beginning. When I am in the middle of the situaion, I only think of the connection and want to get closer. But I’ll keep trying watching their behaviour and how they act on their words, first. :/

    1. Just saw this one, ava. I feel much the same way you do. And I consider it narcissistic and a massive flaw in a man to want more what they cannot have or to be averse to things they asked for and actively participated in, it is imo a part of being accountable for your actions. Not saying they should be equally interested in someone who likes everyone the same, but you seem plenty particular.

      I am very confident in knowing if I like someone or not without manipulation. I don’t feel inclined to hyper manage the structure of a relationship, I am focused on the content. I do not however want to be disrespected.
      It’s just to me the guy sounds like he’s managing structure, controlling emotions, and making assumptions unnecessarily (that last one might incite some harsh words on my end). I do not like being taken for granted. I feel he’s possibly calculating.
      In addition you can feel he’s attracted to you, which to me makes it more so likely he’s manipulating.

      1. Wow, thank you nunya!
        It is certainly a type of control.
        Yes, I can feel he is attracted to me and likes me, and he said so, too.
        And then come the “but” … AAAHHH noooooo where do I know “conditional” from …. *frustrated look*

        Structure?

        What would he calculate? ?
        He has like … 1 month left in this country (by his own choice). He said clearly, he will leave, he doesn’t WANT to get attached.

        But in a way, I feel, I am not “allowed” to want or demand anything more (by “demand” I mean, like, going out, some activities). When I saw him the last time, he hm … seemed responsible, he didn’t want to do anything but cuddle because I had told him the time before that, that I couldn’t do “more” without some form of … relatiionship, or friendship. But I wanted more and he was reluctant and asked, if it was really ok for me … aaaand … I don’t know, was he just responsible or taking my feelings into account, or is it more like — now I am not “allowed” to protest or expect anything else, as it was my own choice??
        It’s a bit confusing, in this emotional situation.

        He makes me feel so frustrated all the time and he does the minimum which keeps me hanging on.

        And at the moment, he ignores me, and I hate this situation, I hate that I even wonder, and waste my time on it … (did he simply fall asleep, is he working, is he with someone self, did he block any other online activities for the moment because he’s doing god-knows-what online, does he just ignore me, if yes, why … his status on FB is gone.)

        I will ponder more on your words, it’s a very interesting take on the situation and spot-on …

        But what would you do – simply leave the situation altogether, no contact? Wait? Or try talking to him??

        I certainly feel that I am in the weaker position … So you think he wants (more or less) consciously control and that’s why he is this way? He seemed so genuinely kind.

        1. ava, I don’t know either.
          iWhat was bothering me is if he was still having sex and saying the “friends” thing because that literally makes no sense. And I think it is a common narcissist move to maintain a sexual relationship while managing the details, so that’s what was bothering me, but I can’t tell from reading if that’s happened or not.
          The other thing that bothers me is keeping a relationship sexual while delineating what a “formal” relationship looks like. I mean, I get it, the future wife and mother of your children might be wooed more interestingly or committed to more greatly. The timing might be right, one might be more motivated, the chemistry might be high. I don’t know…I don’t really think about these things, I just think about what I want to do and what interests me. But specifically saying you are to do things a certain way, regardless of your needs and interests, bothers me. I can’t quite tell from what you are saying if that’s what he’s doing, but it’s just selfish if that is the case. But if he’s just busy and maybe interested in someone else, it is what it is. If he’s at least loosely concerned about your wellbeing but not wanting to commit to anything, that’s fine and understandable? I don’t see what his leaving has to do with grabbing a beer or taking a walk or whatever. I just don’t like to be managed with rules n stuff for no reason. If he’s lost interest it’s all a moot point anyway? I’d just look out for him attempting to maintain a sexual relationship with you while managing the structure for no reason (by structure I mean a lot of “we do this, not that, you are for this, not that…that is dictating as though you have no thoughts on it).
          But in the end, that’s all just my opinion and what I react to, I don’t know for sure. He could just be a normal dude, but really you should be focused on how you are treated and what you want and what you are ok with. I just think some guys throw in little manipulation traps for no reason (like you said “conditional”) instead of taking things as they go. But being just blown off due to not being interested is different. I think you should just think about what you want and be confident about it, definitely don’t base your emotions on what someone else is feeling or thinking. The other commentors could be right too, he just may not want to talk that much.

          And I agree with SP regarding facebook, I can get obsessive about things, it’s good to just focus on people you want to talk to instead of on what someone else is doing (the negatives). But I dislike FB and may shut off my account again also. Triangulation drives me insane. Ha, I have this guy I have to sign out with when he pops on because he drinks too much and will just show me his dick at some point, so I just ended up taking him off message.

        2. Yes, Facebook is horrible that way. 🙁 That’s why I’d been asking him to meet in person, considering that he lives 10 minutes away!

          Now, storytelling time:
          I met a friend of mine today, and he said, that this guy maybe didn’t want to lead me on and would think that I would assume that if he went for dinner with me that it would mean that our relationship was progressing. While my friend wouldn’t assume that because he has a girlfriend (unfortunately, she is the luckiest girl alive).

          So, I wrote to the guy I’ve been dating (kind of) just that – that he would be wrong to think that way, and that he should just talk to me, and so on. I then also added that if he wants to keep controlling the situation by being this way, and if he kept ignoring my messages (on and off) that I had no choice but to cut him out of my life.

          And then he was suddenly all sweet and talkative, and super nice, and asked me about my job interview, and everything else, and then went on explaining how stressed he was and that he had had a job interview this morning via videocall himself.
          And asked if I would like to go for dinner on Monday, like nothing had ever happened. !
          Explained his plans for the weekend, too, and that he hadn’t asked me for tomorrow because he thought I was on a trip (which had been planned but cancelled due to the weather, which he didn’t know).

          Hot – cold – up – down – …. like I hadn’t had enough rollercoaster rides in my life …

          1. Oh this is more recent? Sometimes when I’m frustrated I just say what I feel and hope for the best. That’s interesting what the friend said, but yeah I hate assumptions, massive peeve for me, I was wondering if anyone else felt that.

          2. Ava101, Those are all red flags. I got the hot cold thing too and even had to Google it because no one had ever done that to me before. It is called ‘intermittent reinforcement.’ Either your guy is a narc and is manipulating you, or he is not interested enough to care how you are feeling about things. Either way, it is time to cut it off and he is leaving anyway. Block him on FB and be done with it.

          3. Hi SMH,
            I’ve had plenty of that before from the exnarc though in a completely different way.
            I Made a red flag / blue flag list today and guess what – the blue side is 1/10th of the red one …. When I take the feelings I am having when I am with him out of the equation there’s nothing there.
            🙁

          4. Ava, I know it’s hard but it’s better to cut your losses now. I say that from experience not having done that! I was just as confused as you are once but did not find HG until I had already escaped, which was a herculean task. Had I found him sooner, I probably would have been very defensive too yet I also like to think that I would have come to the realization sooner and that my escape would have been much easier. At this point, I am more than a year NC and I do not think I could have done it without this blog.

            The bottom line is that you should not have to ask over and over for what you need from any relationship that is worth keeping.

          5. Agree on the intermittent reinforcement, SMH. I probably at some point would have handed the guy his balls verbally for the assumptions bit, after I slept with him of course because that’s when that spring is sprung typically, but HG says this is just fuel maybe? Besides, they’ll just say a woman telling him he should permanently fuck off and die is a stalker.

          6. Also Nunya Biz, It did not matter one iota what I said to him – through the years I called him a liar, a control freak, everything under the sun, including a psychopath. It was all just fuel. I finally wounded him when I called him a man-baby. That is the one insult I would recommend everyone use if they really want to get rid of their narc :). I did it post-escape, so I was not that attached anymore. I then got a silent treatment in return and blew up – I really went to town.

          7. I think thst you are all right.
            I atill wonder why it doesn’t register in my brain … and why I don’t see that he gives me precisely nothing.
            And then again there are the memories of the hours with him which are the opposite. Maybe you’re right that these moments have hooked my brain chemicals.

          8. Ava, The memories of the hours with him are part of the intermittent reinforcement. He gives and he takes away, then he gives again, which is a relief, and then he takes again. It is an endless cycle. Mine had such a serious case of approach/avoidance that it did not matter what I wanted – even when I wanted exactly what he said he wanted, he would then switch and want the opposite. It’s not what any kind of relationship with anyone, even a friend, should be about.

            Nunya Biz, It did start pretty quickly after I slept with him. I did recognize it for what it was at first – I called it ‘controlling’ – and I left him. But that was only the first of the five times that I left him.

          9. The one I have issue with I am very attracted to but has done all similar. Sometimes I think “what’s the harm?”
            But he is all projections, mirrors and shelving, triangulating. I’m not in love with him, but he wants me to be I think (not so he could do anything about it, mind you). I only say I’d have verbally insulted him because I’m not always restrained in that way, I can be impulsive, and assumptions really are a trigger for me, but also a red flag.

          10. SMH, I like that the insult he responded to was sort of validated as correct by his response. Kinda funny.
            I think I have a knack for wounding insults and I can get pretty personal, but mainly I think they have to relate to the narc’s facade while being true. Yours apparently viewed himself as a mature man, which clearly he had parts of him that were not.

          11. Nunya Biz, Exactly! Totally immature. Overreacting to perceived slights also fits the narc profile to a T. That is when I became convinced that MRN was a narc and found HG. Similarly, when I told him he had a personality disorder he deflected and blameshifted, which also validated my observation. To this day, I laugh at the man-baby thing (in fact, it is part of the reason why I am SMH). Nothing mattered until I inadvertently wounded him with a mild tease.

            It did make me think though that he must have daddy problems and perhaps that’s where the NPD comes from. Someone told him growing up to ‘man up,’ ‘don’t be such a baby,’ ‘stop acting like a girl,’ and all the things that get said to boys to turn them into ‘men.’

          12. Ugh…I was thinking about that too. And that’s probably the thing that sucks me in, it makes me feel protective when a man has issues like that.
            The whole thing sucks.

          13. Nunya Biz, It does suck. Of course I would not have teased him like that had I had the slightest idea but I did not and the tease was meant to be affectionate. He knew that I knew little about his childhood. He had never mentioned his father to me at all. A mature man would not have taken it so personally, but rather would have perhaps responded that it made him uncomfortable or something, or at least would have later explained. But because MRN is a narc, he couldn’t do that – his narc defenses instinctively went up.

            I apologized several times but I also told him that his reaction was completely over the top and the real reason I left him was because of his shitty behavior, not because it was an affair, which is what I had first told him.

          14. It’s not like the “intermittant reinforcement” (or what was the term) I had with my lovely exnarc.
            It’s not like that.

            But there is one thing that makes me alarmed, and that is his lack of emotional reaction to my over(?)-reactions. He just stays calm and nice and then gives in, most of the time.

            But there might be other personality times with a litte …. too flat emotions?

            Yes, I am trying to stay away and will look for someone who also gives me something. Or stay away from them all.

      2. It’s over now anyways, I’ve just lost it, overtired as I am.
        And I think you’re right about the control / manipulation. Seeing how far he can go, and how much he can tell me what not to do / say / want.

        This sounds ridiculous, but not to an exhausted person who had simply wanted to hear that someone would keep their word:

        His FB status was hidden this evening, so I TRIED not to think too much of it. I logged out to go peacefully to sleep. But I saw that I had a message (from a lady friend as it turned out), which is why I logged in again. Saw that “he” was online, and when I opened our chat in the messenger view, it said the same “active”. Aaaand: — gone —
        My messages to him marked as unread. Those were a reminder that we would have had a date earlier this week, and of his promise of dinner.

        ***
        Empathy: I had thought so at first, he told me like he wanted a bunny, and loves animals. I had thought that he was extremely nice and caring. Doesn’t bestow that on me much currently, though. :/
        He mentioned that last time I saw him, he said “you’re an empath, too, right”? (like our friends). I had asked him why he mentioned it, and he said, because many vegans were.

        I had meant to ask him about that next time I saw him … which isn’t happening. Ah, I feel so out of control, you’re right.

        1. Ava101, I just read your comment. Stay out of Facebook or you will go crazy. I’ve been deactivated for a year and cannot be happier. When I escaped the narc, he started to punish me by triangulating with another supply that was a mutual facebook friend. I didn’t talk to him anymore but could still see his activity. He was online exactly when she was online sometimes at 4 in the morning, when I got online he left. Only to come back again while she did the same etc. I wanted to kill them both, got so so angry and hurt. Until I got tired of this shit and shut down my account. Don’t let him play with your mind, be better than him and show him you don’t give a shit. I know how it hurts, I’ve been there. 😘

    2. Well, so, I have talked with two empath friends about that guy, they say, he’s reaaaaally introvert, so they don’t really know what’s going on inside of him. He had had a closer friend than them, who has left this place, but even he hadn’t know a lot of things going on, so – lack of communication is maybe a trait of him, and not just sth towards me.

      They also said that they know that in the past, he had taken his ex relationship very, very seriously. And that they can’t imagine that he’s just using me.
      They also say that he is really under a lot of pressure right now, he’s fucked up his thesis so to speak, – almost, and having several job interviews all over Europe. :/
      They also said when we were all together, he had had only eyes for me and seemed to really like me, and they couldn’t think why he would have gone off me.

      So maybe he actually was thinking MORE about it all in serious terms, than me, who wanted to enjoy getting to know him.

      Agree that when it’s too fast for himself, so, he should have thought about that beforehand, granted.

      Wrote him that, also that I don’t want to lose him altogether because of his stupidity and all, and that led to his reply and explanations about stress he’s having.

      So much for the daily soap, I’m going to think about all of your comments later more. And am thinking about what to say to him or ask him about on monday.
      Thank you!!!

      I saw the baby swans today with my two friends, soooo cuuuuute, trying to climb on their mother’s back when the river got too fast, they were drifting away …. aweeeee soooo fluffy!! 😉

  2. HG , I’m just curious about something that cropped up here .
    SM doesn’t know about you or your blog etc ,but has it ever happened that one of your exes could eventually find their way here.
    With the blog they would be none the wiser but with Instagram I’m not so sure , lots of very screw Ladies in the world HG.
    Just asking

    Kiki

  3. I would like your diagnosis, please.

    I met a guy about 3 weeks ago by the name of Tudor. (Yes, seriously. *lol*) I liked him right away, and he was the same. Next day, I chatted with him on Facebook but I had to do all the work so eventually stopped. It took him 5 days to get back to me. I was chatting at the exact same time with our mutual friend, his colleage, about an event coming Sunday, so I asked him if he wanted to come. He said “yes” immediately,, and showed up on Sunday, radiating smile at me from afar, didn’t move from my side all day, was very attentive and nice and all.
    When we left our friends around midnight, I asked him to go dancing, and we did. Anyways, he took me home with him … and then said the next day that he doesn’t WANT to get attached, or me to him, … He wants to leave the country in about 1 month (though not clear where).

    I took him 3 days again to get back to me, but never asked me out. … when i asked him thursday night he then agreed immediately to meet saturday after that … but I had to force him to actually do something together .. though he cooked for me …

    And then repeat, … when I wanted to see him, he said always yes right away, and was just lovely. Then said last Saturday that he did not not like me, that there was attraction and chemistry .. but he wasn’t in love and he would leave soon. And the age gap was too big. (Thanks so much.)

    He didn’t want me to stay the night, but we had spent all day together. I asked him if we could agree on meeting some time the following week, without me having to wait for him to write … (and he said that was normal for him, all his friends were pissed off /th him). But no.. he couldn’t. AND from day 1 when I tried to make clear *sigh* that I wanted him _at least_ as a friend and get to know him, and not just “fun”, he said we would go out for dinner and we never did. Been in a pub once because I had gotten too frustrated that day.

    Sooo that was last Saturday, today is Thursday, … and n o t h i n g from him. Last Sunday I had sent him pictures of my trip with a friend out to the ocean, because he didn’t want to go with me. No answer.

    So, I suppose that your advice to me is clear: don’t contact him.

    The question is: why??? do I keep experiencing the same things, and is this about my boundaries again, yes? But he was sooo soooo nice WHEN I saw him and acting like a friend, and looking after my car, …
    Why do I even keep wanting him to contact me? The connection drops completely in between this way. 🙁 I don’t know him well enough, to know how much I like him.

    My ex says we were using each other. How am I using him? I just liked him so much right away, and just wanted to enjoy time with him, like going places, going out for food, going on walks, watching movies. But nothing from him. Where did this go wrong when he clearly likes me? Just … I really don’t know .. not enough?? Too shy to approach me (that would be ridiculous). He seems pretty rational and logical about it all. But cuddled me all day long last time I saw him and absolutely not at all like he didn’t want to see me again. He also said he hardly knew me. Yes, that’s why I had wanted to spend more time with him, ….. :/

    1. Ava101, Best for HG to answer, of course, and pardon me for butting in, but it sounds to me like your guy is leaving in a month and doesn’t want to get involved. It also sounds like you are doing all the work and you slept with him too soon. For some reason, men lose respect for us if we sleep with them before THEY think we should. It’s like they all have a madonna/whore complex. Women don’t sit around thinking ‘oh man-whore slept with me on the first date – I have no respect for him – he’s not worth my time’ – but men do seem to think this way!

      1. SMH, I question if empath men think that way though. I don’t think they do, I think they are more like us. I’m all for delaying in the case of determining a narc though.

        1. Nunya, but this guy is not a narc, I had watched him for the duration of one party and then for a whole long day, with other people present, closely, and asked some crucial questions. Ever since, he didn’t give a sign of being a narc. A bit pre-occupied with himself right now, maybe, but with his thesis due in a month and looking for a job in a different country, might be reason enough (no, I don’t like to make excuses, but at least he has a good one. Of course I still think he should have enough time and energy left to text me though. :/ ).

          I’m going for a walk with him tonight, as “friends”. :/ It took him one week to contact me again. 🙁
          Well. I’ll see what happens.

          1. Thank you Ava.
            Maybe he is just distracted, I’d be very curious to know what HG says. For me the thing is I think the things he says are hurtful in a way and yet he still continued. Do being “in but out” strikes me as both controlling and self interested. I don’t know, to my mind it requires a slate of assumptions to speak on those terms.
            You seem to have genuine interest in a good way, so I don’t know what your ex meant either.
            I brought up the empath men question because I can’t recall empath men ignoring discomfort, more like being “oh, I didn’t mean it that way!” If misspoke or saw a negative feeling and going to reasonable effort to avoid hurting anyone as an empath would. The lower level of unnecessary, controlling judgment prevents anything besides trying to “see” what will happen like you describe you feel.
            I was wondering SMH opinion too. We’ve discussed this before and it’s something that came to mind at some point.

          2. Nunya Biz and Ava, I never had that discomfort with empath men. Someone who causes it would make me wary now. But it’s kind of a rock and hard place thing because along with the discomfort comes other kinds of excitement, which I have not found with empath men. In other words, some kinds of narcs keep you on your toes in ways that empath men do not. I did have a mostly good relationship with one empath guy awhile back. He was really full of life and a doer, but that imploded because I wasn’t really attracted to him. He was more like a brother to me than a lover.

            I agree, nunya biz, that being in and out is controlling.

          3. Thanks SMH, I was wondering your experience, that makes sense.
            The way I look at it lately though is….
            some relationships with empaths maybe didn’t work out for whatever reason (timing, life incompatibilities, etc…) and they also didn’t work out with the narcs for OBVIOUS reasons.
            So I feel like an empath is the way to go, I’ve had attraction and a narc can never work. Maybe that one just wasn’t right but there are millions of people : )
            And as you say he was “full of life” etc… I think empath men can very much be like that, surprising, unique, creative, energetic…AND empathic. What a combo. I feel so protective and empath men are a good place to put that.

            I just have this problem with a man, it signals narc to me, that might consider having sex with someone and then think the sex is too soon.
            Like, um….you were there too.
            Why would someone be against something they did? It just seems like a complete lack of personal accountability and farming out negatives onto others (projection). I can’t even wrap my mind around how the thought process happens. But they do it. They don’t even know they are doing it, they’ll talk about it in circles and just not see the issue. It’s weird.

            I remember bringing that up in some rant on the other thread we were talking on…that sort of man doesn’t deserve to enjoy sex with a woman, I just don’t get how he cannot be protective of what he is involved in and who would share an aspect of life with him. Sex is meant to bring people closer, it is a form of intimacy, and inability to cherish that is a MASSIVE red flag, imo. This guy seems like he is doing a push/pull by having sex/cuddling and saying “friends only” out the side of his mouth, it doesn’t make sense. But he keeps showing up. Plus he keeps shelving her:

            “This new guy is really nice and feeling and cuddling and then it’s like it had never happened.”

            I personally have no desire to marry a sex partner and “getting serious” is a mutual decision that grows or develops or doesn’t, I don’t require it, but when someone is projecting and objectifying they will pretend the world suits their view of themselves and that they are the center of all attention and not account for the other person’s wants/needs/desires. Maybe she would decide he isn’t enough for her or something else. And he’s managing and defining outcomes rather than living them. Besides, what also stands out to me is that “Friends” is amazing! I have a female friend texting me right now, I don’t say “we are just friends”. She is my friend, that is a cherished position. I only want to be friends with a romantic partner, that is how it should be. He is downplaying it like it’s less meaningful? I don’t like this guy.

          4. SMH, just so you know, I read about your no-contact issue. Hope you are well. I have been feeling temptation recently, kinda sucks.

          5. Hi Nunya Biz! Very kind of you to check in. It does suck but I managed to get past it without any further temptations. Coming here helped and it also helps that I am insanely busy again – don’t even really have time for this blog, much to my distress! Soon I will be travelling and will have even less time!

            Funny but a week ago I was chastising HG for disappearing (actually really for disappearing without announcing it, not for disappearing per se) and now I cannot keep up!

            HG, could you please take another break – maybe until the end of July when I will finally have some time again? Don’t you have a holiday to go on or something? 🙂

            Re your other comment Nunya Biz – I think narc men have problems with sex because it is all tied up with their egos. They can’t do anything out of sheer enjoyment, right? And no, I wouldn’t reject an empath man at all. In fact, I would like to find one that I can fall in love with!!

          6. SMH:
            thank you!

            Hm, he’s not an empath either …
            I thought kind of normal, but yeah, it’s getting too much of that discomfort.
            Maybe just … not motivated to do anything, our mutual friend (his colleague) told me, he was about to miss his deadline for his PhD thesis, too, …

            More like a brother … yes, isn’t that maybe often the case for ‘us’ with more empathic men?

            It is one of the traits of my ex-narc I was attracted to, indeed: active, go-getting, and certainly never holding back on what he wanted and was thinking (or wanted me to know he was thinking). Decisive and driven.

            The “maybe”s, “going with the flow”, “just chilling”, etc. of the current guy drives me crazy.

          7. Ava101, My narc was decisive and driven too, and that was also very attractive to me. People who dither drive me nuts!!

          8. SMH, I’m glad your lapse was only temporary, but I hope there are no additional hoovers soon, be careful.

            Reading this whole thread with you and ava is helping me. It’s just the thought of “what could just once hurt really” and some stupid shenanigans I’m not deterring because I’m not completely letting go of the whole thing. The thing in my favor is that I become more and more aware of his thought process through these conversations and it is very off-putting to me, which is good. Also “ego sex” sucks. I mean, it can be good in the moment but the motivation is just such a turn off and I really like genuine, connected, intimate sex. Not in my favor is that I’m not all that serious toward him as far as emotional attachment or as far as anger and avoidance. Also not in my favor is that I find him very attractive.

          9. Nunya Biz, I would be really shocked to get a direct hoover, though he could very well be creeping me online without my knowledge. He has done that plenty of times before. But all the usual venues have been quiet now for awhile. I think creeping his and IPPS’s social media actually had the opposite affect of what one would think. Rather than make me more obsessed, it satisfied my curiosity and made me somewhat bored with them.

            I wish I’d had the benefit of this site when I was entangled. It would have helped me so much to understand and respond appropriately but I was so in the dark. I basically knew what was wrong with him but not how to deal with it and I did not realize that a personality disorder was a permanent thing.

            So I am glad this is helping you maintain some distance. I am guessing that the physical attraction will wane as you become more and more knowledgeable about his thought processes and start to experience him as a damaged person. I think towards the end with MRN, I really felt like I was dealing with someone who was either a child or mentally challenged, neither of which appealed to me very much! That is not to say that I couldn’t be fooled again but once you see it, it’s hard to unsee.

          10. I am now more confused that ever and eating my words. ;D

            He showed up to our date and was lovely. I had gotten out my credit card to pay and he wouldn’t let me. He did all the work, he was nice, polite, …
            And just when I had wanted to start to talk with him, an aquaintance of mine came at crashed our date. ;D It couldn’t not invite him to our table. ;D
            So, after a while, “my” guy and me went to a pub, and he was still all lovely, and I tried to talk to him, I asked him about everything, and told him clearly, that I didn’t want a relationship at them moment because why would I, when I never hear from him and he’s giving me nothing?

            He passed all narc tests.

            So … he said I had been upset before because I had thought he was just using me for sex, so he thought we should just go out as friends for now, and also watch a movie sometime.

            He said .. it was normal for him, not to write for often, ever. He had met his ex girlfriends not more often than me now … He was writing more with me than anyone else. He didn’t deny anything about any women he had dated in the past, I had heard about. He actually had mentioned one of them before, I just had misplaced her (thought it had been at another place).

            He kissed me very tenderly, and held me in his arm, and stroked my hair and my hand just a little.
            And said then he had had a wonderful evening, and we should do it again.

            That was all after me telling him, no relationship, and that he had also made it impossible for me to have an affair with him due to his never communicating, and so on.

            He also explained about how he was much more stressed and under pressure because of his thesis now than 4 weeks ago and that he would also loose money if he didn’t finish (because or work scholarship).

            And that he was still going away.
            And that he needed more time, it was going to fast for him.

            So there is a dilemma, I feel time pressured because there are only like 5 weeks left, he feels pressured because of his thesis and therefore decided not to have time for anything outside of that, and at the same time it’s too fast and too much for him.
            Also there is a 2nd dilemma … if he continues like this, I WILL fall in love.

            Maybe he is more of a sweetie than I had given credit him for. as I am always in a constant state of panic / fear / …

            But now he doesn’t understand that he HAS given me what I need to proceed, and wants to meet me as friends for now. (Plus kissing me. 🙂 ):

            I am soooo confused. I had more expected him to finish it all tonight… or that I would blow up… I had no reason to, no triggers that is.

            He also said there was noone else, he was seeing, that was not the problem at all, also no online messaging and stuff. And I believe him.

          11. Agreed, HG. Ava, I can’t tell you how many times my narc made everything okay, had a reason (excuse) for everything, made me feel that I had worried for nothing, was a sweetie pie, etc.

          12. Hi Ava. Congratulations on your new well-paid job!
            I am not sure I understood the whole situation here, but I believe this guy said he does not want to have a relationship at the moment because he is finishing his thesis and moving to another country soon. If I got all that right, my question to you is, why are you still wondering about him and thinking you will fall in love with him? He kissed and hugged you, those are very powerful gestures that can mess up with one’s ET. The guy may be manipulating or just being nice to you, I don’t know. Either way, I think it is up to YOU to protect yourself (your heart), to apply more logical thinking and take the control of the situation by ending this story up because he is not interested, does not have time and is going to live in another country. I hope this does not come across as harsh. It is not meant like that. I just wonder why you are so into this guy when he has said he is not. Am I missing something? Or is it just that you would like to know if he is a narc or not?

          13. I agree with HG,
            And I also want to say thank you for sharing your story regardless of outcome. My opinion shifts and in the end what matters is yours. I hope you are happy no matter where things take you. I think I will have to ND with HG if I ever end up with these kinds of questions. I get skittish also, it’s challenging.

          14. I know, HG, that he shows signs and behaviours my exnarc, did, too, and that it could be narcissistic if calculated.

            However, I have watched this guy closely, every single variation in his facial expression, his eyes, … I have asked him all crucial questions, too, and talked to several people who know him, listening closely to their descriptions. Also asked him about things, others had told me about him, and compared his answers, and they are all ok.

            I also know, I’ve said this before about other guys, but this one I have known now much longer: he is not a narc. He is simply immature and messing everything up. And caught up in himself, in an immature in-over-his-head and egocentric way.

            Yes, it could be future faking, yes, it could be withholding what I want, yes, it could be binding through hot-cold, … but I’ve checked it.

            Yes, I know about instinctive. … But he also does everything I want him to – he wasn’t at the moment because I had been waiting and watching.

            But you just gave me the idea to ask someone who knows his ex if there was ever a sign of abuse. Didn’t hear anything about that so far.

            Anyways, the original question was about myself, … why do I keep hanging in there.

            Oh, and in addition to having been invited for dinner tonight, I got a new job today, which is very good paying, so there’s hope for future consultations. ;D I can’t afford your luxury segment prices right now (and you still owe me one answer).

          15. Congratulations on your new job. Remember having read my work you will see many more red flags but your ET will be fighting to obscure matters, hence your degree of uncertainty and doubt. That’s why you present the facts (not opinion) to the objective, dispassionate expert – me.

          16. Ava101
            Congratulations on your new job. What you can’t afford Ava is to get further involved with this person (and possibly spending money in the process) when your emotional thinking has you all over the place and confused. Please consult with HG who has zero emotional involvement and can better look at the “facts” to determine if the signs are there to continue or not.

          17. Hi Lou,
            no, you have perfectly summed it up. That is the big question: why can’t I myself maintain distance and stay away from him.
            I had been in this regard in a much better state before talking to him yesterday. I had expected everything, but exactly not how he behaved yesterday.
            Maybe I am really just not used to a nice guy simply meaning what he says. The latter is kind of new to me.
            But also: I reeeeelly like him. And I am pretty sure he likes me, and so it’s hard to accept that he decides against it, and also that I don’t get to enjoy the time with him that is left.
            I don’t feel manipulated, I don’t feel the potential to be just used anymore, I want to enjoy more time with him.
            So there is the part that understands logically what he said and that he will be gone, and the other part that feels good when with him. Doesn’t feel good in the long gaps in between.

          18. Thanks for answering my question, Ava. I understand what you are saying and I think it is good you are talking about it here. It is also good how you recognize how your logical thinking is in contradiction with you emotional thinking. I know it is easier for me to think logically regarding your situation because I am not emotionally involved with him. I just hope you can see that, even if you could enjoy these few weeks with him, you would very probably end up feeling more frustrated than you are now once he left. I know it is hard to accept but you need to respect his boundaries, and your own boundaries as well. And, there are other fish in the ocean.

          19. Ava101, congrats on your new job! I’m very happy for you, for your achievement that you should be celebrating.
            Excuse me if I seem obtrusive but I couldn’t help but follow your story about the thesis guy (you all know I don’t trust people who don’t finish their theses). All I hear is he he he he he. You, wonderful Empath with a heart of gold who just kicked ass and got a wonderful new job… what do YOU want? Do you want this indecisiveness? It seems to me you have a very clear idea of what you want and instead, are lying to yourself by telling yourself -and him- that you don’t want a relationship, when on the other hand you complain here that what you want is a relationship. Narc or not narc, HE is setting the pace and establishing the nature of whatever it is he is doing, be it a flirtatious game to give him a boost before his thesis or a future faking. Don’t fall short from your objectives. I have done that too many times in the past because, being a love devotee, I tend to idealize any moron that I have in front when my logic, on the other hand, tells me that they are just negotiating with me and trying to sell me something I was not looking for. I hate to say this but experience has shown me many times: when a guy wants to contact you, he does. There are no excuses, unless he’s dead, in hospital, or kidnapped. You mention that he said he never contacted his exes often. But you are not content with that. If he behaves in the same manner with you as with his exes, are you gonna be content? You also say “he had given me what I need to proceed.” Let me ask you: why do you need to proceed? With what? Don’t do. Just don’t. Stay alert, watch his moves, but let him do. I would consult HG if I were suspicious of him being a narc. And I agree with him that your ET is creating a mirage that you want to believe. Please, don’t be offended by my words, I’m just speaking from my own experience of creating Disney fantasies in my mind. I have a friend that used to say this to me (sorry for the image): Love is like a fart: if you have to force it, it turns into shit.

          20. SweetP
            Love Is Like A Fart sounds like the next Disney movie to be released. A musical (of course) starring Shit Emoji and his new love interest rapper T. Paper. Imagine singing along to the soundtrack for that one. Actually they could borrow a song from the Frozen soundtrack……

            Let it go……let it go…

          21. NA, that is genius! I can predict a total hit! They will also make t-shirts for kids to know the value of real-life relationships! 💩❤️🧻 let it gooo…
            Ok, something tells me Mr. Elite here is gonna reprimand our scatology.

          22. SweetP
            Nah. We got away with that much because he’s busy disposing of a different piece of shit on a another thread lol.

          23. It’s a great reminder, Lou.
            And congrats on your new job, Ava!

    2. Ava I will offer some insight I’m not Hg but I think I can see what has happened here
      Ok from what you have written this man does not sound like a narc but a guy who is becoming overwhelmed by your attention. I mean this kindly put you are in pursuit mode and he is picking this up big time.
      I may be old fashioned but it’s best to let the guy take the lead in the beginning and it’s your best bet to pace the relationship.
      Let him make arrangements etc if he doesn’t so be it move on.
      Back off for awhile and see what happens, you are showing too much interest which can scare a guy off.

      Kiki

      1. Thank you SMH and Kiki! I do want the input from you all, and I appreciate it. I think you’re both right.
        I am just not learning it.

        Kiki, this is a bit embarrassing to admit, but he actually said that… he had felt my attention right away and me like a predator lol but he had enjoyed that and had gladly went along. Another day, when he was showing me some dance moves … he lol kind of taught me that HE was leading and I had to let loose and follow his lead.

        Still, I felt time pressured, why didn’t he … And … I don’t understand why he responded always immediately and said yes immediately to whatever I suggested, on the same day. And talked about being friends at least.

        It has been 1 week now that I’ve seen him and I haven’t contacted him anymore. Nothing. 🙁 Like … why couldn’t he suggest a simply friend-like thing, like going for a walk, coffee/pint, dinner, … anything. ?

        I hate it that he forces me to let it go and to feel this way. I am feelng like I always do (helpless, unseen, unwanted), and also sad and dso disappointed. Why couldn’t he take into account what I would like, he never asked me, just assumed. I don’t know if I should write him the latter.

        Not sure if he would have ever asked me out. He said maybe. I had thought that that group event was a great opportunity.

        1. Hi Ava. I think you have identified an emotional pattern of yours that is recurrent: feeling unseen, unwanted and helpless. Try to change that pattern by changing your thoughts and reactions to the situation. The guy doesn’t seem to be interested in having a more formal relationship. It’s ok, that happens and it’s normal. Don’t dwell in it, you’re just reinforcing your old pattern and you may be even reproducing it unconsciously. Try to think differently. Change that old pattern. I know it more easily said than done, but it’s doable.

          1. Hi Lou,
            yes, I know … but it’s not going away. 🙁 I’ve so tried to change my patterns. Been at a solstice fire on Friday and the person leading the ceremony was talking a lot about ancestors, forgiving them, letting them go (the dead ones) … so … I’d been thinking, well, no, I stil haven’t forgiven my father at all. :/
            But the guys in my re-enactments are becoming a bit nicer at least … small comfort.

          2. Hi Ava, maybe you can try to make it more simple and direct. You don’t have to forgive your father to stop thinking or feeling a certain way. You just have to see the recurring emotional habit and stop it by doing something different, something that will help you get out of it. It is not done overnight, but each time you stop the pattern, you will be forming new connections and weakening the old ones.

          3. I don’t know, I just wouldn’t be interested in the guy anymore and then he’d possibly become more interested and that would turn me off.

          4. Haha, nunya,

            knowing myself, if he showed constant interest, I’d also go the other way. …
            There is a sweet guy (but I rationally think we are not suited at all) who is very compliant and made it clear that he wants to be with me, and sends me cute photos of baby swans, …
            (I know, great sentence, putting these points right next to each other ;D ). ….
            So, what happens? I know (for sure) he would be there always and start a relationship, and I’m not interested at all and get thoughts like “OMG I need my freedom”.
            I know, it’s all messed up.

            The other guy, I want – he’s an aquarius like myself. No balancing out. Makes for great fun, but also great conflict.

            Thank you for your remark about my questions. ;D
            They must sound weird sometimes … When I am in the middle of an (emotional) situation, totally caught up, … I’m really not seeing the whole picture anymore. When I have managed to take a step back and have dissociated myself from the situation, it looks different. But doesn’t help with my feelings or cravings for connection. But I can see that my own patterns are not exactly helping. I do take tiny steps, and to me it’s even incredibly hard not to have contacted that guy for a week until he finally did. This week, he’s incredibly communicative. Maybe he needs uhm physical contact, haha. Yes, it’s sad.

          5. AVA101, I don’t mean to be a buttinski, but my vote is for giving the baby swan guy at least one date. You might be surprised! He sounds like a sweet guy.

          6. Yes, ava, that’s kind of why I wanted to throw my comment in there because I think these kinds of things can be frustrating and I have certain things that put me off, one of them being that a person is not comfortable with affection. I like to be affectionate and to me it is too challenging if they are more interested when I am less so. And I don’t want to be gamey about it, it frustrates me. Some guys I feel just can’t be satisfied with a normal amount of give and take, and I think it’s a good idea to see if they can be and if not maybe it’s not going to work?
            But then yes, I agree with you, if they are too interested and clingy I get very put off with that. So that’s why I was asking questions as well, because it often isn’t just a good click, but I feel it should be. Maybe sometimes it’s about incompatibility, but other times, like you were saying, I think it can be a question of intentions.
            Clingy definitely makes me nervous though, I felt a guy got clingy that I wanted as a friend and I just stopped talking to him.

          7. Do you think the guy has empathy, ava? I think that would be my main question, it’s a lack of empathy that would bother me in the situation you describe.

          8. Thank you all, I still have to think more about it. I am loosing my patience right now, though.

            Haha, MG, “give the baby swans guy a chance”. I actually had, I went on a walk with him, and out dancing. It’s not working, but also, he doesn’t understand or see much about me. There is a small, soft part which resonated, and he is so caring, which makes me want to snuggle up – but really nothing else. :/

            Been also very casually dating another guy (also, to keep me destracted …), who has shown way too many narcissistic traits and quite a few downputting remarks, therefore I had to go no contact on that one.

            So, no real alternatives. 😉
            But you know, how it is, when you want to be in the arms of one specific man, it is just like that. I wish I could simply conjure someone up, I feel equally attracted to.

          9. Ava101, I get it. There’s just no chemistry with the baby swan guy. If it’s not there, it’s just not there. Of course it hasn’t stopped me from being with the same guy for a few decades. (And he doesn’t even like baby swans!)

          10. I think a soft guy can still be narcissistic, whether N or no. Good you tried, you never know. I hope I didn’t talk too much Ava but your situation was driving me crazy so good luck with that, I hope you talk more if you decide you want. I know what you mean about wanting to conjure, I feel the same.

        2. *Eeek*
          you might be right, MB, but that guy almost makes me more nervous.

          I can find very soft guys very hot though. Depends.

      2. I think Lou, Kiki, and SMH have made such great points.
        Your questions are interesting, ava : )

  4. Dear Mr Tudor,
    Our eldest son just referred to our youngest as a “caregiver” to the partner we are all having issues with

    It appears there are correlations with codependency ie codependent caretaker versus caregivers

    Have you written about this … or able to shed more light on the subject
    This is most interesting indeed
    Thanking you
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  5. The messages are definitely used to groom their victims. Its a tool and to keep tabs on you.
    A tool to reward and punish, cause insecurity, worry. My narcs used these message hooks for all of the above. Its all mind games and can wreak havok in your life if you allow it. Ive had to try and compartmentalize a lot of the tactics over the years. Not had to chose to. Ive had to protect myself emotionally from a lot of it but youre never completely removed from it. Its better to not stay in this type of relationship. Over time if you dont leave and dont develop a thick skin it can affect your health and sanity as well as your self esteem.

  6. You’re back!!!! Yaaaayyy!!!!!
    It does feel like forever when you’re gone HG. Can’t imagine what your silent treatments must have felt like to your Intimate Partners.
    Pure torture I would guess.

  7. Hello HG, Hope all is fabulous with you and yours.

    Were you creator or executive director on Netflix Prime’s original series “Good Omens,” with David Tennant and Michael Sheen? It uses many of your terms and even makes reference to tickety boo!

    Happy web weaving on your travels. Steer clear of the tangles 😉

      1. Hello HG, Lovely to have you back. We experience your absence in dog years: 1 day feels more like seven 😉

        Thank you for the reply. I finished the Good Omens series while you were away and googled it to find the creators are too old (one dead) to be the real you, but I appreciate the confirmation. I think you may enjoy parts of the series.

        1. I have listened to the radio dramatisation and found it well-written and well-dramatised.

          1. HG, I really hope you try your hand at writing and executive producing a film or series. It would be exceptionally entertaining and educational.

          1. Dear Mr Tudor,
            Welcome home …. trust all is well in Tudor kingdom
            We were all getting worried …. I think this has been your longest break (1 week)
            Wasn’t sure if it was work, pleasure or fury …. haha
            See …. you really are loved needed and wanted
            Glad you have returned, you were sadly missed
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  8. Just went thru this a day ago. It doesnt happen often but upsetting when it does. It is conditioning and addiction.
    On that note…wheres our messages HG were gping thru withdrawals here. We need little message presents 😄 gawd even this blog has me hooked 😁

    1. Dear Chihuahuamum,
      Ain’t that the truth ! I’ve missed everyone !
      I was checking day n night …. is he there yet, is he there yet ?
      I think I’ve contributed to half of his 14 mil hits 🤣
      He could’ve posted “thinking of you all” …. every day…… “back in a week” ….. just so we knew he was ok …… he disappeared and returned in true narc style 🤣
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Hi bubbles …lol my ex narc would disappear with no explanation and pop up as if nothing happened it was easy to end that quick. Thats something i cant tolerate it causes me a lot of worry and stress. In the end it wasnt worth it to me.
        I knew HG would be back but more comfort crumbs wouldve helped 😄

        1. Dear Chihuahuamum,
          Sadly, they “all” disappear and turn up unexpectedly
          I bet Shieldmaiden wouldn’t settle for comfort crumbs, she’d survive on her own and catch her own rollmops …. haha
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Hi bubbles…. youre probably right about sheildmaiden altho all victims have certain aspects in common otherwise narcs wouldnt choose us. The boundary levels differ. Thats why they test to see how far they can go. Comfort crumbs can last a long time for some and others would starve on them and leave. I suspect sheildmaiden would gobble them up at the beginning but eventually would need much more but then HG is a greater so hed orchestrate it to last despite being occupied “elsewhere”. I think were a long ways off from that tho being in the honeymoon phase. Its once realities set in that npd emerges and devaluing starts up.

          2. Dear Chihuahuamum,
            I tend to agree with your comments, I believe you make very valid points
            I guess it all depends on which category you are to your narc
            The comfort crumbs may suffice for awhile, but then as time goes by they start to taste off and can end up making you sick
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      2. We should all learn from this. Maybe HG wanted to also give us a lesson here… If not, we should take it as such anyway.

        I must confess I also checked the blog compulsively for a while. But I gave up eventually, and decided this is going to get sorted out, one way or the other, so there’s no need to “worry”.

        It’s a very similar experience to letting go of our narcissist addiction.

          1. I’m not suggesting you should be willing to. But, at any moment, something could happen, and this blog could stop functioning or vanish completely. And there are many valid possible scenarios for this. What will you do then? Shall we all just shrivel and get depressed? I think not, or at least that’s not what I’d want to do… And maybe even HG would not want us to do that. Because then this means his teaching would just be a complete waste.

          2. SP

            Ha ha I can’t be on instagram……I stir up trouble……I was angry for one insinuating FM1T is an narcissist and then claim it was a joke….that is not a joking matter to me.

          3. I’d shrivel Abe!! Shrivel and lose the will to live. Haha.
            I did not ‘worry’ but, like everyone else, I was missing him tremendously.

            If HG left (heaven forbid), I’d still have his books. And I think I’d sleep with one of them underneath my pillow. Forever!!!!!!!!!

        1. Abe
          I understand what you mean. HG has many demands on his time and has occasionally been away from the blog for short periods, but he always returns. I have come to know this over time so I am unconcerned, but I understand the angst of some who may be experiencing turmoil and need an injection of logic from HG or comforting words from another commenter. I personally take the time during his absence to get caught up on articles, books, and comments and peek in on some of his other platforms (Youtube, Instagram, Twitter). There are good natured jokes about him giving us a silent treatment or punishment but he has stated that is not his intention and I believe him. Our angst over his absence and relief upon his return in some cases does seem to evidence our tendency toward addictions though, and like you, I wonder that even though this might be considered a “better” addiction, we should still be aware that we are showing those tendencies to obsess a bit and to look for ways to deal with them.

  9. Yes as always, you hit the nail on the head Mr. Tudor. He would message thru out the day every day in the beginning. On occasion he would become upset that he had texted while I was at work and I did not repsond as quickly as he wanted. I would assume this was to condition me as well. If I only answered with a yes or a no, then he would complain about this as well. I was not putting enough thought into my responses, and being rude because he was trying to have a dialogue. Was I not thinking about him thru out the day he wondered? I felt bad. I see now how it was gradual in the process of turning the tables. I was raised you do not call the man. You do not initiate anything. That includes dates, phone calls, and sex. I do not agree completely but that is how my peers behaved as well as the females in my family. After he got the tables turned it was all over then. He began responding or texting less and less each day. At first it was only a day that he did’nt text, then it was 2 and then a week. He would show up unannounced but would not contact me via phone. I was very confused. Today, he rarely texts. He knows it hurts my feelings. He knows I miss the days that he was thinking about me too, or I thought he was anyway. He initiates nothing. He is responsible for nothing. He will not even admit to the things he says. everything is passive agressive.

    1. Oracle
      I was always taught the same: never be the initiator. It has served me well in my life and especially with the narc. Regardless of what today’s norms are, I will still not initiate or chase down a man. But with a narc, that just makes me a defective fuel pump. Oh well!

  10. Dear Mr Tudor,
    The weasel has been the only person, ever, to text me a squigillian times a day
    He used his PTSD as an excuse and so became exceedingly needy and repetitive
    He assumed I was interested in his every movement … I wasn’t, I just was being polite, courteous, helpful and a friend when you needed one
    I really don’t now how he got things done because he was constantly texting … “what are you up today, blah blah” … he literally took liberties any time day or night
    He somehow “cajoled” me into sending him “daily” affirmations to help his PTSD, then it became night time affirmations because he couldn’t sleep ….”Otherwise, I don’t what I’ll end up doing to myself” he’d say

    Even my family were sick of it …..”don’t tell us, its the weasel again, what does he want this time”?
    I ended up putting my phone on silent or turning it off altogether, as it was distrupting my life big time

    But then as the games continued, he started to withdraw from texting so incessantly, which caused me concern about his health, resulting in me texting him more
    I had apparently, unknowingly, been replaced
    Never again !
    Another exceptional accurate article, thank you Mr Tudor
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  11. This post is brilliant. Early on in my (ex) relationship he was always messaging me and it did make each day seem more brighter and me feel wonderful. Then they became less frequent. Short, blunt, ages to reply and sadly it became all I thought about when I look back at it now 🙁 I remember sitting waiting for the phone to ring or for the phone to beep. I remember wondering why I heard from him so little, it was so drastic compared to how it was in the first 6 months 🙁 then it would be more frequent again when he saw it got me down so I’d think I was imagining there was something wrong but there wasn’t. He was just too busy with work, he was in that meeting after all, he was in an area where there was no signal or his phone had died or he had network problems. I believed it and I feel sad for the person I became, sat at home waiting for the phone to ring, having my day taken over by wondering what I’d done as I hadn’t heard from him, feeling down as he was always on his phone in front of me, always replying to texts, instantly when his phone went off yet if I messaged him no reply or a reply after a good few hours as an afterthought. When I was being devalued with his current supply he used to message her in front of me and with a smile on his face. Hurt so much then. This article really struck a chord with me thanks HG

  12. My MRN was ignoring me for awhile. However lately we’ve begun talking again. Way back when, we used to have phone calls every Wednesday. Then he took them away. Now that he has made a re-appearance we have been having phone calls every Thursday. I assume at some point he is going to withdraw that the way he originally did. If their behavior at this is instinctive then why is this happening? Doesn’t he KNOW what he is doing? i.e. giving a weekly routine of a call and then eventually withdrawing it?

    I began to ignore him and he stopped reaching out. Then today out of nowhere he texts me “sorry no call tomorrow since I am vacationing with the wife” (yes he said “the wife”). But then he says “But I am still here for you. I love and miss you and we will talk next week again.”

    I just replied “Okay”. There was no follow up.

    I am assuming I will either get another text next week or be ghosted.

    Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

    1. Hi fuel free….im so sorry i know it hurts. You want so bad for this. He contacted you bc he realised you may be moving on with your life and wanted to reel you back in. Put you under his spell again. Youre one of his ego security blankets. I suspect hes not happy in his marriage and as a narc uses people in his matrix this way. He doesnt care he hurts your feelings when he disappears. Thats something that was a deal breaker for me bc it does hurt and causes terrible worry. It leaves you rejected and so uncertain. Are you being ghosted to discarded? Or is he …insert a multitude of excuses to try to make sense of it. Then he will pop up again and gaslight your feelings with his i have obligations with my family you know that blah blah throw in some but you know how i feel about you and youre special to me. Youre in his roladex of ego lifters when hes feeling less than. A pick me uper. You help him feel powerful and desired. When he gets that he fades away until he needs you again or feels you slipping away and reels you back in. You are worth so much more! You are single and could find so many guys thatd make you not only forget this narc but think wth was i doing putting up with all that!
      Im curious do you date at all or have you tried to connect with other men? When he disappears for lengths of time?

      1. Hey Chihuahuamum…
        I am asked that question often so I will answer as I usually have. I have tried to get to know other guys but no one compares to Piano Boy. He is all I think about and want. No one else evokes the same magnetism and attraction the way he does. I want it yet I hate it. Does that make sense?

        1. Hi fuelfree….it makes absolute sense bc youre ensnared and havent gotten away long enough to detox and be open to others.
          Another question ….in your minds eye what would it take to make you leave and go no contact? Is there something you can think of thatd be that determining fa tor to turn you away for good?? What would it be?
          Also where do you see tgis in a yesr? 5 years? Etc can you envision still living like this or do you see it ending eventually?
          I ask bc i think of these questions myself. Thx 🙂

          1. Chimum
            After all this time with your narc, has it become purely a comfortable convenient routine and physical release for you? More of a habit? Or would you say there is still a strong emotional pull?

          2. Hi narcangel…great question. Its complex and not any one thing but the core is a codependancy driven by fear. Fear of the unknowns. That is the basis of it.
            Its a combination of comfortable routine, release, ego boost(yes im guilty of the very same thing), escape from reality, enjoyment and companionship but there is an emotional tie as well bc i do feel love for him. Im not in love tho and i know the difference. I was in love with my hubby when we met and for years but that changed to a deep love in an unromantic way.
            Its a mix. If i didnt have the fears or codependancy issues idk if id walk away completely but im sure id change the dynamics. Its hard to say bc ive been in this too long to even envision it.

          3. Chimum

            I appreciate your reply. I had wondered over time about any emotional change for you or if it was just unconscious routine now. Have you been attracted to anyone else in the time that you have been with him?

  13. HG , I wonder are you involved in British Government .
    With Trump paying a visit right now ,hence your disappearance the last few days.
    What did you think of the meeting with the Royals ?
    Now I’m not a Trump fan but I thought Harry looked like a spoiled petulant child not doing his duties as a Royal ,isn’t that what he is supposed to do to represent his country , personal feelings aside.

    I can also see your point regarding Markle now? Personal feelings ,schoolyard antics have no place in government meetings.
    Seriously both of them are a joke.
    I just hope William has more intelligence than this.

    Trump is due near my hometown in Ireland soon , I don’t like him but I his wife is gorgeous and so respectable.

    Kiki

  14. This is one of my favorite articles as it applied to the position I got myself into. Measuring whether it was a good day or a bad day using texts as a barometer. A simple text had the power to have me giddy with delight and the lack thereof morose with sadness. I gave my power away and became a slave, tethered to a device that stayed mostly silent and brought my mood down for no reason that was based in logic.

    I pick this as a time to return to the blog and remind myself that I have much better things to do than wait to be plucked from my shelf.

    I’ve been no contact almost five months now. I’ve gotten restless these past couple of weeks and getting itchy thumbs for texting. Bad place to be MB! So, I type here instead. I hope my narcsite family will welcome me back with open arms. I had to leave. I actually went through a withdrawal/detox period where I had to leave everything “narc” behind. Unfortunately, that included the blog. I wasn’t sure if I’d ever return, but here I am now, needing a soft place to land. I love all y’all and look forward to catching up.

    So…what did I miss? Please tell me I didn’t miss the T. Swift Tudorscope article! What about any Dolus Malus installments? The Shieldmaiden article? K, I need links babe!

    It’s so good to pop in and see everybody. I hope you’ve all been well.

    1. MB
      Your finally back!!! Yay! I knew you would eventually return! I have missed you so much! Congratulations on your no contact MB, and welcome home Sister! 😘😘🥰

      1. FM1T, WC, and Nunya – Hope I haven’t missed too much. I see HG is still sporting the “they are tangerine!” shorts. At least I haven’t missed any new gravatar shots of the fearless leader. I’m looking forward to seeing what everybody’s been doing!

        1. You have missed so much!! Not really! Lol, although I was controlling my exclamation points until you came back! 🤣 Blew that right out of the water! 🙃 The girls will catch you up, I’m sure of that. I am just happy you have returned! I missed you so very much!! 🥰💞

        2. MB,

          ‘Tangerine’ – hehe …
          You’ve been missed!
          Congrats on the 5 months NC.
          I haven’t been on the blog regularly as of late; so I’m definitely not the one to catch you up!

          It hasn’t felt like the same landscape around here, though, without you – and Windstorm – commenting.

          1. Windstorm is truly missed. I hope that you are well and still reading my friend.

          2. NarcAngel
            Every time I look at the clouds, I think of Windstorm; ever presence.

          3. NA, I saw Windstorm over on the “gram”. I hope she survived the HG IG lockdown. She certainly is one of the voices of reason at Narcsite. Present company included in that too NA 🙂

          4. Dear WhoCares,
            I agree
            Windstorm is very much part of the family here
            She just stopped, I wonder what happened
            I miss her valuable comments, beautiful personality and kind soul
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. Bubbles,

            One of my ‘happy thoughts’ is Windstorm sitting at her window, with her red crocks on, looking out on her holly trees…

        3. What’s with Narcs and SuperDry? That’s all the lesser wore. Every photo on his IG is hashtagged #Superdry
          Another telling sign to be on the look out for friends!😉
          #Supernarc

          1. Twisted Heart not my narc! Because he is a swimming trunk top model, as you all know already.

          2. Sweetest Perfection I did not know that. A swim trunk model??? Damn! Stupid Hot Sexy Narcs.
            #thedevilwearssuperdry

          3. Hahaha! MB You know you’re in trouble when you’re seeing tangerine flags! GOSO!!!!

          4. TH, hahaha he is NOT a model. As far as I know, GQ has not knocked at his door yet… he thinks he is though. I must admit he has a great six pack because he works out a lot but I was joking because I already told the story here of how last year, when we were still entangled, he lost his mind after I made fun of him and proceeded to post an “all week display of his summer collection” on social media to show me (insert here me and all the others he probably had ensnared) how hot he is in his several swimming trunks. Moron. But no, he doesn’t use that brand, his swimming trunks are exclusively custom-fit (so he said). I never asked because I’m sure the answer would have to do with his penis.

      1. Nunya, my eyes are definitely fresh. Clear of the addiction that gripped me. Spending all my time thinking about when I’d get my next fix was affecting every aspect of my life. No contact allowed me the clarity to see it. Before then, I was clouded by ET. I had no idea how bad it had become. Who was this girl with no logic?!? It’s a struggle some days to keep from reaching out, but I see how far I’ve come and I never want to go back. It’s much more sunny where I am now. The first time I had the realization that an entire day had gone by without me thinking of him, I knew I was making progress. “When you know you go, get out and stay out.” It’s real and it’s effective.

        1. That sounds great, MB! So definitely a good move. I realized similar, that stopping an addiction really brings about a conscious undeniable understanding of what addiction really is. And the understanding is transferable to other areas of life as well. Invaluable.

    2. MB, your first paragraph resonated with me. Sadly, I know that routine, as do many of us. I think this is a place you/we can always come back to and find support and welcome. You’re doing great, stay strong and be gentle with yourself.

    3. MB, babe! Welcome back, your glitter was really missed! I’m glad to read you are doing well and have been 5 months NC already!🎉🍾

      1. Hey Sweet P! I’ve got lotsa glitter and sunshine to spread about. But no more narc sprinkles!

          1. SP, yasssss! Swatting down a few hoovers is nothing when you have that healthy glittery glow! Swat! Block! Swat! Block! And sparkle on.

        1. MB How long were you NC from this blog? That would be really hard. I tried it and only lasted half a day🤣
          Too much rich content on here from HG and all of you.

          1. TH, I dropped off in March. It wasn’t really all that difficult because I was depressed at that time and not doing well. Withdrawing was my natural coping mechanism. Although I wasn’t sure what to do with all the time I suddenly had on my hands! I totally agree with you about the rich content. It’s THE. BEST. source for accurate information delivered in a no-nonsense, easy to understand format. And the blog participants are awesome as you mention which is an added bonus!

    4. MB!
      So nice to see you back and congrats on 5 months NC! Well done!

      I can definitely relate to your opening paragraph. How sad that my mood was dictated by his contact, and the content of his messages. Isn’t it a relief not to be weighed down by this anymore!?

      1. Joanne, yes! I didn’t realize how much of my life I had let go because of the real estate he was taking up in my mind. There wasn’t room for anything else! I’m still catching up! No more sinking feeling when I’m ignored. No more hopes dashed at his whim.

        It was difficult not saying goodbye, but it had to be done that way. I learned from the best No Contact teacher! The things HG has taught me through his work has served me well. Shout out to you Sir and thank you.

        1. MB
          It is amazing how consuming they are 🙁 I am disgusted with myself when I think of how many things slipped as a result of all my mental focus being on HIM! It’s a wonder that my kids didn’t fail all of their classes, that I didn’t lose my job, that my husband didn’t fully catch on! I’m happy to no longer allow his behaviors toward me to dictate my moods.

          How did it feel going cold turkey will “all things narc?” Ridiculously enough, I still feel the urge to be researching + reading the blog here. I’m working on NC now, but I feel like I still need all of the narc education.

          1. Joanne, it was very difficult to leave all things narc behind. No contact is hard! I’ve felt like a heartless bitch ever since I effected it. It goes against everything I believe about human relationships. Every fiber of my being was craving the drug too. The addiction is a real thing. And I was only a long distance SIPSS!Intermittent reinforcement is of the devil.

            As far as leaving the blog, it was a slippery slope for me because of our dear Narc in residence. I didn’t want to trade one for another. (He talked about this on TTIF #6 I think it was.) If HG isn’t your thing, by all means, stay here and read and interact. Its the best place for information on narcissistic entanglement plus *bonus* the people here are soooooo nice! I just had to take a break and detox. I’m good to come back now. Here’s a song for us no contact girls:

            https://youtu.be/OeFxErFWzXk

          2. MB
            Great lyrics!
            I totally understand your comment about NC going against your beliefs on relationships. Cutting someone off versus closure or resolution isn’t something I would do…UNLESS they have deliberately hurt or wronged me, and since the narc didn’t *really* directly hurt me (shelving vs devaluation) it felt wrong and heartless and even extreme to do NC.

            I also understand your comment on being a SIPSS. Being left with so strong an addiction after such a brief affair, being put on the shelf, and having it STILL affecting me 6 months after the fact seems so irrational. NC helps but I want the thoughts of him GONE completely.

            And what you’re saying about HG… I have seen that a few times as I read older comments. Luckily that has not happened for me and I am able to see him as my “uber-smart male friend-in-my-head who is coaching me through a bad ‘break up.'” I do wonder if I would fare better if I went “NC” on all things narc; the blog, instagram accounts that I follow, books that I read, etc. I wonder sometimes if I’m feeding the thoughts of my narc by keeping the topic of narcissism so centered on my radar. But at the same time, I feel that all the reading I do helps me to confirm this is really what he is. I wonder if I’ll ever just be satisfied enough to just forget it forever.

          3. Joanne, the narc didn’t *really* hurt me either. In fact, quite the opposite. I was definitely getting something from the engagement too. I just realized how bad I felt between hits and how my mind space was completely focused on getting the next one. It was a true addiction. I realized it was toxic for me and making me sick. And it wasn’t brief. (Almost 7 years)

            You will know when/if it’s time to pull away from your narc education. The truth seeker in you will at some point be sated as far as narcissism goes. But you might still decide to stay for the friendships and the camaraderie. And once you’ve climbed your ladder, you may feel compelled to give others a boost up theirs. 😊

          4. MB
            Thank you for that! I hope the truth seeker in me is sated very soon…I’m tired. Although as you suggest, I will likely still stay around as I really have come to see you all as friends. You were all there for me at one of the lowest points in my life, when no one IN real life could even understand.

            You are definitely doing the right thing with NC. I completely get the addiction to the hits and highs. But the time in between them is just too costly. It takes too hard of a toll on your mental, emotional and physical well being. SO not worth it!

    5. Welcome back, MB! That’s great that you have found such clarity from your no contact!

      1. Getting There, thank you. Five months is nothing, but it’s a good start. And I can see that it will only get better. It is hard to accept that I’ve had to let go of somebody that I care so much about without so much as a goodbye. Knowing I can NEVER interact with them again is akin to grieving a death. Letting go of something you tried so hard to hold on to is extremely painful. But it is necessary in order to move forward. Being stuck, life on hold, waiting for something that is never going to happen is even more painful.

          1. Twilight, thank you so much. Y’all have given me the best welcome back. I’m blessed to have such a special place as this in my life!

        1. Hello, MB
          Five months is awesome! It is a cause for celebration! 🍾
          It is a type of death and it is good that you are allowing yourself to grieve for the death. Heck no for keeping yourself in neutral; you were made to live and love fully. I’m so sorry for the pain you have been feeling and are still feeling! You have such strength! It’s great that you are back; and it’s great that you have been doing what you have needed to get where you are!

    6. MB
      Yes I know what you mean. Looking each day to see if MB has posted and then being disappointed that she had not. Wondering what she was doing, who she was with, hoping she was well, and wondering when or if she would take us off the shelf………

      Teasing (sort of). We are giddy with delight to have you back and proud of you for doing what you needed to do to effect no contact.

      NA

      1. NA, you’re such a hoot! I’ve missed you so much. Detoxing from the blog was quite the feat as well. I’ll have to ease back into it. I hope I haven’t missed too much and I’m looking forward to interacting with everybody!

    7. Hi MB. Welcome back.
      To answer your question, I believe there has been some new articles during your absence but nothing about T Swift, Dolus Malus or SM.
      i guess you just missed some seagulls flying over Narcsite that are definitely not worth knowing about.

      1. Thank you Lou,
        I’m glad I haven’t missed anything and hope that some some material is coming soon! I love the beach and seagulls are cool. Just don’t feed them or they attack! Probably goes for the seagulls flying over narcsite too 😄

        1. You are welcome MB.
          Seagulls is the term NA proposed to call a certain group of commenters. Here is her comment in Come One, Come All:

          “You (HG) forgot The Seagulls. Fly in erratically and shit all over the place while squawking ”Mine, mine!” and then fuck off, never to be seen again. (Hopefully).”

          To which HG replied:

          “True, we call them narcissists!”

          Voilà part of your update.

    8. MB
      Ha ha ha…you are back! Good news, you didn’t miss any new articles about TS, DM or SM. I am so happy to read that you are doing well with your NC.

      1. K! How are things in the HGU library darling? Busy as ever I presume. You’re the best! As far as not missing anything, I guess this is like a soap opera. You can be away a while and get caught right back up as soon as school is out for the summer! (As long as they didn’t change one of the actors and now Thorn is blonde and speaks with a funny accent. – I hated when they did that!) Looking forward to some new material. With all this flitting around, hopefully HG will find time to light somewhere and write some.

        1. Thank you MB!
          Ha ha ha…things are running smoothly at HGU! Busy as ever and you were sorely missed, if you haven’t already done so, listen to the TTI Friday series 1-6. I think you will enjoy those.

          1. K, I have listened to everything new HG has posted to YT. Voice fan here 🙋‍♀️ And I did really like the TTIF ones. We’re overdue for another. Wink. Wink. What a coincidence! Tomorrow’s Friday.

    9. MB Good to see you, and well done.
      I agree, being able to put that phone down while doing other things for a few hours without giving narc a second thought is so joyous!!
      Hugs xo

    10. Welcome back MB,
      It’s good to see you here again 🙂 I’ve missed your witty and engaging comments.

      I hope your ‘detox’ period has been helpful for you. You didn’t miss the T. Swift Tudorscope article or any of the others either. Just the other day I wondered when we’d be seeing those. I think HG has a lot on his plate at the moment though, so best not to rattle his cage too much 😉

      1. WN, thank you! When does The Tude NOT have a lot on his plate? T Swift’s new album comes out Aug 23rd in case anybody in the world doesn’t know yet! Pretty sure she’s broken the internet this week with that. He still has time to Tudorscope her if he wants to before then. *rattles cage*

        1. You’re right, The Tude is always busy… the size of this legacy he’s creating is getting ridiculous!! Perhaps the T. Swift et al articles were just a future faking tactic?! After all, he is a narcissist.

          I happened to see T. Swift recently when she was a guest on the Graham Norton Show. I think she’s everywhere at the moment promoting her new music. She looked like a glamazon to me – tall, gorgeous, perfect makeup, hair, tan, with her whole ‘look’ being larger than life (and fake too). Even the other guests were in awe of her I think. They looked intimidated by her ‘perfectness’ and seemed to lean away from her and stare awkwardly as they sat on the couch!😂

          1. WiserNow, There is much that would appear to be future faking but I prefer to believe he is just busy. And, after all, it would be instinctual and not purposeful. The machine that is HG Tudor would be better served doing those things that advance his own prime aims. I imagine that anything involving Taylor Swift or MB would be quite a ways down that list. Ha ha

            As for Taylor, she is a phenomenon. Not even 30 years old and has built an empire so huge, it creates its own weather pattern. Kudos to her, narc or not.

          2. MB, I don’t think HG is future faking either. That was an attempt at a joke lol 😉 As a Greater, he’s too aware and in control to do something obvious like that.

            Taylor is quite something. She has tapped in to aspects that make her very popular with young girls and young people in general. She’s cornered that ‘market’ very well.

    11. Dearest MB,
      Hello beautiful,
      You will always be family gorgeous one and family are always missed when they’ve flown the coop for awhile
      Your soft comfortable bed to fall into, will always have your name on it
      💕
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Bubbles, you are just the sweetest! Thank you for the warm welcome back. I always enjoy your comments.

  15. The first time I dumped Excel was a month after we met – we’d seen each other 3 times. Then I fell asleep one morning while he was messaging me. Later that evening, I told him that I was not right for him because he seemed to mostly want virtual sex. I had not told him that I was leaving the country for five months, so I also used that as an excuse to end it. He seemed hurt actually, though now I know it was a wound.

    So what happened? I still did not know who he was at that point (I thought he was CIA or a Mormon missionary) and I was determined to find out, so I gave him another chance, we saw each other, I found out who he was because he’d forgotten his first lie, I left the country, and he hooked me with the damned messages anyway for the next five months. Early on I contacted him to ask him a perfectly reasonable question based on something he had mentioned. He was curt with me – ‘when I know, you will know.’ I basically yelled at him (virtually), told him he was like two different people (Mr Egg Head lonely guy and Mr Finance who gets blow jobs with his morning coffee at the airport) and stopped initiating any contact at all. But the dude was like glue. You know how when you are using super glue sometimes you get it on your fingers and it’s impossible to get off? Sticky, your skin is peeling away – that’s what he was like. Four months of super glueing, then he ripped my skin away and, a month later, tried to stick the pieces back together.

    Act II followed a few months later.

    1. SMH, of course it gets sticky, especially if you are getting blowjobs at the airport… hahaha sorry I couldn’t help it my mind just connected the two images. I find the CIA/Mormon dilemma very funny!!

        1. Hi again SMH. Couldn’t help but chime in, *suddenly* I think the police came knocking? Ha ha, no that’s right he has a bit of a matrix gathering over there also so unlikely.

          (Sheepish grin)

          1. If you’re wearing the panties and the fitted tank top in royal purple, I will know it is you.

          2. Hi Narc Noob,

            Chime in! The more the merrier! Excel came knocking! I was certainly on a ‘mission’ myself before I gave him that next chance. A friend and I spent hours going through every single picture of white male hedge fund guys. They pretty much all looked the same to us but I finally thought I nailed him. I sent him the link – ‘are you this guy’s evil twin’? He responded immediately that it wasn’t him but it was someone he worked with and knew, which goes to show that all finance guys DO look the same. Then he spent 3 hours talking me into giving him that second chance so we could one day fuck across Mongolia (backstory but mostly irrelevant). Our next encounter had him flying from Toronto to London via NYC. He expected to see me during a layover but guess whose plane got in the way? Trump’s! It was all a big game at first but, sadly, Excel couldn’t just have fun. What a waste.

        2. Oh my. You HAVE been busy. That story brings many questions to mind but it was a good laugh. Thanks 👍. So how did you manage with Trump getting in the way! Funny. Did you call excel from a friend’s phone?

          1. Narc Noob,

            Glad you had a laugh. I aim to amuse (usually!). We had planned for him to come to me during a few hours layover. We were in touch even when he was in the air (another story – I thought he hadn’t left Toronto when in fact he was on his way) but when he landed in NYC, Trump’s plane was on the tarmac, so there was a delay disembarking. Excel sprinted to the taxis, but by then there wasn’t enough time for him to get to me and back, never mind a quickie!

            He then went straight to JFK from LGA. Someone thought they heard gunshots, there was a stampede, and he was evacuated from the terminal (they were not gunshots). I eventually went to sleep and when I woke up Excel was messaging from his office in London completely composed. Didn’t mention a word of what happened, just that he was horny :).

            That story makes me miss him though I am sure he doesn’t even remember it.

        3. Hey SMH, aren’t you glad that convo is over now regarding HG leaving?! Lol. Just wanted to say I felt you and could see where you were coming from.

          I like my questions to be answered as I like to *know* also. Sometimes they paint me black pretty quickly as I’m too darn straight, other times I just don’t like the answer I’m given as I’m pretty convinced of it already 😁… and no, I’m not saying you did that.

          Hope you are well xo

          1. Narc Noob haha. Thank you! That describes me pretty well too. I think HG must know our ‘type’ by now! xo

  16. HG, you got us hooked on your blog and now we are (I am) thirsty for more, but you’re not ‘here’!
    “Just wanted to make sure everything is alright, no rush, answer when you can.” 😉

      1. Webs to evil purpose – or good? (Yes, I know they are purposeful, from your standpoint… but would an empath be impressed or dismayed?)

          1. Quintessential then – your web-making & an empath’s feelings about it.

          1. Fucking A he is and with a mountain of emails and comments to address – they will be addressed though.

          2. HG, If you are going to suddenly leave for, say, a week, without even putting through new posts, what stops you from stating to all of us that you are taking a break? Maybe your answer will give me some insight into Excel.

          3. Afraid I am too thick to understand your response! Did you have an emergency? Did your internet go out? What stops you from saying ‘I will be gone for a week’?

          4. Nah, I think you like the attention and people fawning over you when you return. It’s amusing to watch you do the narc thing and everyone else do the empath thing. Everything is a lesson, HG.

          5. Well then you simply don’t think about it , which is equally as bad for all sorts of reasons.

          6. SMH,
            The Greater…
            He’s not going to want to be pinned down too much 😉

          7. I hear you, Caroline-is-Fine and I know that is a problem for HG but it reminds me of mid-range behavior and I thought he was better than that. It makes me lose a bit of respect because it’s such a simple thing. Here he is running a blog with what, 15 million hits? It’s unprofessional. People are attracted to the blog and from here he directs them to consultations and his books. So it’s also not helpful for drumming up business either. If I were a newbie and came upon the blog and it was active for a few days and then HG disappeared without a word, I might look elsewhere for help.

          8. You really struggle to understand what suddenly means don’t you?
            1. I’m under no obligation.
            2. There are occasions where I must act on certain matters which SUDDENLY arise and this means there is no time to post anything stating I’m away.
            3. The duration of departure is often unknown. Funnily enough those I deal with don’t tend to stare they will be operative from Tuesday to Friday inclusive.
            4. Enquiries remained strong during my absence and were addressed promptly on my return.
            5. There’s so much material newbies would be working through it all whilst I am away.
            6. This is not a frequent occurrence.

            Your observations are incorrect.

          9. SMH
            To give credit where it is due, HG did program his automatic E-Mail responder to let people know that he will be away and won’t respond to inquiries until the 11th. Therefore, people who adressed him directly or planned a consultation with him where informed.
            I agree that having an information on his website would be helpful, but he seems to be away on business quite regularly and still checks in on occasion, so writing a post about how he will be away when he might still moderate some comments if given the time would be pointless.

          10. Desirée, Thanks for that info. I don’t contact HG directly so I wouldn’t know. But I stand by my position. There is absolutely NO reason for HG not to say when he will be gone, especially when he is not putting new posts through. If he takes the time for an email response he can take the time here. He is making money here too – all the clicks and the ads.

          11. Wrong. Explained elsewhere. People know if no comments are appearing then I’m away.

          12. SMH, I think what HG is implying is his departure was sudden, i.e. unplanned, and therefore he did not leave a schedule of posts or a note.

            As an elite, I would guess HG has ample real life fuel and would never need to play with his loyal followers for fuel.

          13. FYC,

            He never says when he is taking a break and I find it annoying. One is in the middle of a conversation – maybe not with HG but with others on here – and suddenly HG pulls the plug. This time, he did not even put new posts through. If he can put a response on his emails he can also tell people here that he will be gone, but he doesn’t. Why is that? (rhetorical question) He knows that sudden disappearances are triggers because it is typical narc behavior. He also knows there will be relief when he makes an appearance again. So it’s either controlling, unthinking, or fuel seeking, all of which I find disturbing. I don’t like seeing HG act like a typical mid-range narc. He should be more conscientious.

          14. Again, note the use of suddenly and understand that’s what is central to it. Stop acting so entitled.

          15. lol HG. I am not acting entitled. I was simply asking you to explain your thought processes. Your version of suddenly is obviously different from mine but forget it now. I’ve moved on to…T-shirts!

          16. Yes but it’s a good thing I am feeling peaceful because it’s taken you so long to put all the comments through that now I have to respond to everyone who wants to patiently explain to me why you leave, when that was not my question at all. I was not interested in why you leave. Your personal life is none of my business. I was just interested in how you leave. END OF!

          17. You little spunkster, SMH! Lol

            But we can’t control *how* he leaves either.
            #Reality

          18. I know, sigh, Caroline-Is-Fine. I am such a control freak and I wanna know everything 🙂

          19. SMH,
            That’s funny! I don’t know if I’d call that a control freak thing (but you know yourself best)… in this case, it sounds like you’re more curious about his behavior & thinking there’s a different way things can be worked out for everyone. That’s not a bad quality (problem solver)… maybe just don’t call him a “M” next time — LOL! (Just teasin’ ya) 😉

            I think I’m dropping the “is fine” — tired of typing that — and I’m fine, I’m fine!

          20. Caroline, Yes you are fine – one fine lady. You are also correct. I am a problem solver, which is why I stayed with MRN for such a long time. I thought ‘the problem’ of him could be solved. lol. I guess it would be control-freakish if I wanted to know where M – oops, I mean HG – was, but I didn’t.

          21. SMH,
            Didn’t we all! (Think we could fix/heal/help them). So I’ve now come full circle to learn that even when he knows that I know what he is… and he knows what I am — guess what? That makes no difference either! Good to know… thought I was going to still have an ounce of hope there for behavioral changes for him… nope. Nope on hope! Lol

            (HG would probably rather be called a “MF” than a “MR”! ;-)Lol)

          22. Caroline, I am sure you are right about HG but some things do remind me of MRN (HG – I can certainly see the difference but I also see a few similarities – after all, you do suffer from the same disorder).

            Anyway, Caroline, your problem is more immediate. Does your N truly know what he is? Does he understand why you might not want to be with him? If HG can change do you think your N can too? Is he a Greater? Does he want to? Honestly, it is probably not worth the struggle of even trying to figure it out. It’s all so exhausting and you know in the end that things would be the same. I am sorry that he is back in your life. I think you were the first person I interacted with apart from HG on here so it gives me a bit of pause – oh no, after so much time he found you! So far, I am narc free and I am sure MRN will not hoover me but famous last words, right? Besides, I still miss him sometimes. Big hug!

          23. Modify your behaviour? But you are right, HG, that it is an important lesson for us to keep in mind. Sometimes what I write is too broad to capture what I really mean to say. You are very precise in a way that I am not.

          24. I think of it as being left and right brained, HG. You are more left brained and I am more right brained (as are most of us on here). You are trained but were also probably born with that left brain dominance. One can be talented in all sorts of ’emotional’ or ‘creative’ areas – say music – and still be left brain dominant. It’s like having cognitive empathy. Maybe narcissists are just extremely left brained.

          25. SMH
            I was thinking the same thing. HG can only manage his NPD. Holy shit, that’s gonna take some discipline, awareness, logic and preemptive action.

          26. K, MRN is extremely left brained too. It took me awhile to figure it out because I am usually involved with right brained types – artists of one sort or another, musicians, etc., so I was never faced with it. For me it was very odd to be with a person who seemed to have certain brain activities missing and of course it was hard to handle. I didn’t understand it at all. MRN took things literally that I did not mean that way, he would say my writing was beautiful but that it was like chinese characters to him, he didn’t get metaphors or nuance, etc. I didn’t know how to write in a way that he would understand and he didn’t understand the way I wrote. HG’s abilities are way beyond MRN’s but I still often see the left brained dominance.

          27. SMH
            Several people that I have spoken with think that the narcissists around us are on the spectrum, because they don’t have the capacity to understand nuance and their affect is so flat. I school them about NPD.

          28. K, Yes, the flat affect too. I also thought MRN was on the spectrum. I asked him once if he was and he did not know what I meant, or he pretended not to know. Then the last time we saw each other I said ‘I thought for the longest time you had Aspergers.’ He said ‘I might.’ I said ‘you don’t, you have a personality disorder.’ Well, deflecting, blame shifting, etc all ensued. That was proof right there of his narcissism.

          29. SMH
            Ha ha ha….the proof is in the pudding. Four of my adult narcissists claimed they had ADD.

          30. K, That is very interesting. We should all add it to our list of red flags.

          31. SMH
            I agree. The males claimed they had ADD and several of my females have “PTSD”, are in therapy and on meds.

          32. AW said he must have ADD since he gets bored so easily. Maybe a more socially acceptable reason for changing partners so often? Could be a red flag, of course in aggregate with other behaviors.

          33. MB and K, I thought my exL had ADD but never thought about it with respect to MRN. He was Aspergers 🙂

          34. Hi SMH, A few things you may find of interest:

            Current research does not support ‘Left brained’ versus ‘right brained’ orientations with regard to personality.

            You may find this research interesting:
            https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0071275

            Further, when both logical and creative aptitude are present (once considered ‘center brained’), either can take precedence depending upon the subject matter or work together.

            IMO, we all tend to interpret things in a way that suits/supports our own process and views.

            According to this article people are most influenced by emotion when making decisions:
            https://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making

            Emotions are primal. Higher cognitive function is developed over many years (the brain completes development at approximately 25 yrs of age).

            As we develop, some people naturally shift to a logically driven approach, yet can still be hijacked by emotion. Others naturally rely upon an emotional approach, but can employ logic to achieve more balance. Neither is superior, but when both are used, a better outcome can usually be achieved.

          35. Plus, Caroline, you were giving Kim-e all this great advice and being so patient and supportive. I hate to see this happen to you.

          36. Now for some peace on the HOT thread! I keep watching for the drawing of the line.

          37. You mean gull droppings, MB? I thought some of her lines were quite funny.

          38. SMH, I understand your strong connection to the blog and other commenters. From my perspective, HG is incredibly thoughtful and responsive, especially for a narcissist. The fact that he had unanticipated and pressing matters that caused a sudden departure is understandable. I would want him to take care of such matters (especially considering what I assume his career entails) and would not take such things personally. Frankly his amazing commitment to this blog and his prolific contributions are second to none.

            I have been reading here for about a year and a half and I find that HG is very consistent in his behavior. Unless I missed something, I have never seen HG manipulate his followers. So SMH, please do not take things personally, even if you feel distressed. Remember, the narcissist always returns, and we will all be here for you upon his return.

          39. SMH,
            Sorry~I can’t seem to comment back on the reply you gave me, so I’ll post on the bottom of FYC instead (thank ya kindly for the free reply button, FYC)…

            When I said he can’t be “pinned down,” I didn’t mean that he’s messing with posters (I do not think he’s doing that at all)…I meant it like he has to be able to go about his regular life with freedom.

            He provides this platform whenever he can, but like everyone else, he has other RL stuff, so when the blog is not open, he just can’t run it at that time — it’s a free service that he provides that’s like a privilege, so I really don’t expect him to be accountable for shutting it down when he has other obligations. I wouldn’t expect that, and I don’t feel like he owes posters an explanation.

            I do understand how you feel about being in the middle of a conversation that’s important, but I think everyone here knows that can happen at any time, so when that’s happened with me, I just think, “Okay, well, I’ll get back to that with so-and-so when it re-opens.” And sometimes, the time it took helps me reflect more on how I could help someone more effectively — or a little time has changed my perspective a bit, and it’s not a bad thing.

            Um…I like you, SMH, but let’s all pretend you didn’t say the “G” was acting like an “M”…oh…my. (insert mouth-hanging-open emoji)

          40. lol Caroline-is-Fine, Did I say that? Oops. Anyway, it’s fine. As I just explained to FYC, I was trying to get HG to open up about his thought processes when he does that. It is not the leaving at all. I completely understand that one cannot devote one’s life to a blog. It is the way he leaves. No closed shingle or anything.

          41. SMH~LOL… and you’re shopping, so it’s all fine! 😉
            XO

          42. Caroline-is-fine, or maybe I am cruisin’ for a bruisin’! HG just told me I am acting entitled. Double oops!

          43. Hi FYC, Thanks. I am not taking it personally at all. I was not upset that HG left because I have seen him do it many times before. What bothered me was that he did not SAY he was leaving. Such a simple thing. I’m not going to go on about how I feel about HG or how grateful I am to him and all that. He knows. I am just picking at a narcissist’s brain because I want to know how it functions. I am interested in the things HG does that MRN used to do too, so it helps me to understand MRN better if HG can explain. MRN always returned as well so that was not my fear at all. I have this friend with an ex Aspie husband and he too used to leave conversations without saying goodbye, so it’s sort of Aspie and sort of narc. It’s the way they leaving rather than the returning. But HG is the only person here who can explain it.

          44. SMH, I never had that problem with my narcs (they disappearing). However, from what I have read here, what HG has explained, I assume narcs disappear without saying anything because they are not accountable to anybody. They do as they want. They don’t think of you. You are not in their mind. You don’t count.
            It can also be that they are wounded and therefore punishing you and think you don’t deserve any word from them, Or they want to have you wondering what they are doing, where they are, and want you worried. There are so many possibilities. But it is about fuel, entitlement and lack of accountability.

          45. Lou, I totally agree. That was definitely my experience with MRN and that is why I was curious about what HG was thinking (or not thinking) when he disappeared. I know he does it occasionally and I know he comes back (MRN always did too). So that was not the issue for me. It was more that MRN was the only person who ever did that to me and I found it very annoying/weird/twisted. It was particularly shocking when he would ask me a question, I would answer, and there would be no response. But soon I got very passive about our communications. I never reached out. One day he said out of the blue, ‘I think of you when we are not together.’ I thought hmmm, then why do you act like there is no other person on the other side of the communications? Very confusing! But I also saw him do it to others on social media, including to family members, so ultimately I did not take it personally. It was just further evidence that there was something wrong with him.

          46. SMH, HG used to disappear for longer periods of time without saying a word and without posting on the blog or IG. This time he kept posting on IG, so there is progress. It must be the new dynamic. Lol.

          47. Yes, exactly — hence, my original comment that you can’t be pinned down — I cut right to the heart of the matter. You other people need to listen to me more!

            I KNOW, WTH is up with Caroline these days?? I know, a few aspects are not my typical behavior (keep that hidden) but…

            I’m under stress I tell you… I’ll be back to my chill self when things get better. But I truly need this fire to overcome what I have to now.

            However, I AM maintaining some semblance of control… you wouldn’t believe all the snarky reply posts I’ve wanted to make to (ahem) “Perpetual Disaster.” Holy Hilarity — loved the HG zinger I just saw regarding the same…heh.

            #BeingHuntedLikeAnAnimalMakesYouFlippin’Fiery
            #ILoveTheEmpaths/PleaseKindlyLookAwayAtMyFire

          48. Lou, I’d never experienced him leaving before without putting any new posts through for our amusement in his absence. I’m not on IG and I can’t see it now that HG made it private so that SM has to follow him in order to see it (right, HG?). That means he will know if she finds it. When it’s public anyone can look at it without HG being aware of it.

          49. HG, what is there to stop The SM from creating a fake account to follow your IG? Or having a friend or family member sneak in? Do you think she may be “on” to your HG Tudor business?

          50. You replied to a comment that you made it private to keep her from seeing it.

          51. Thought so. Smart move, HG. That way, she will know when you are ready for her to know and not just stumble upon it and be shocked.

          52. SMH, sometimes the posts kept coming during his absence, sometimes they didn’t, sometimes they did and then stopped. And he has disappeared for much longer periods of time than this last one.

          53. Lou, Maybe I didn’t experience that or maybe I had a pattern in my head that I thought he suddenly deviated from. Since there is no way of asking anyone when the blog isn’t moving along, I guess I just sat with those ideas and did not question them.

          54. Hi SMH, Thank you for further explaining what bothered you. I guess HG’s sudden departure triggered you due to your MRNs behavior. I understand. I know normals that do the same though, so maybe it’s just perception under the influence of past abuse 😉 Glad to hear all is good now that you have your V-neck tee 👚 Peace settles across the land of Tudor once again😊.

          55. FYC, It definitely used to trigger me. It doesn’t anymore at all. In fact, I didn’t think about MRN the whole time HG was gone and I thought hmmm, maybe it’s time to leave the site. (Obviously I did not because it’s too much fun.) I did, however, think it might trigger other people. Maybe that was my past experiences and my savior streak coming to the fore. In any case, I was mostly curious about HG’s thought process, but I realize that some conversations with him are destined to go in circles.

          56. FYC, I have been here over a year too. I wouldn’t have stayed if I was that easily wounded!

          57. Oh that’s okay, FYC – you were very kind about it. I probably wasn’t very clear.

          58. She’s spicy & spunky at times… you’re thoughtful & diplomatic. It’s all good. 🙂
            #EmpathsMakeTheWorldGo’Round

          59. Caroline-is-fine, It’s that I am not very polite. I think it’s because I am from NYC so I often skip the niceties. It’s just a cultural thing. We tend to be very direct and can seem in your face but it isn’t necessarily meant that way. FYC and I are cool.

          60. I can tell you’re nice, Miss NYC. 🙂 There’s nothing wrong with being direct either… or having some feisty in you, especially as an empath.
            P.S. I love NYC 🙂

          61. Thank you, Caroline-is-fine. I completely lost my feistiness with MRN until the very end, when it exploded out of me all at once. Imagine keeping that NYC feistiness under lock and key for two whole years. No wonder I was stressed out all the time. I am so much more relaxed with no MRN in my life, though I do sometimes miss him because he did make me laugh. He once landed in NYC and was afraid to come to my neighborhood. He tried to get me to go to his posh hotel but I refused because they would think I was a prostitute he had picked up in a mid-town bar.

            I saw your other post and I hope you are okay – it sounds like something is happening – is it your exN?

          62. Thanks for making me laugh, SMH…prostitute from a mid-town bar, LOL

            Yep, the reason I’m “Caroline-on-fire” lately is because of the exBF…no good deed goes unpunished! He has my new cell #, so now I’m awake in the middle of the night trying to figure out who gave him that (like it matters at this point)… have I mentioned no good deed goes unpunished? Guess so…

            I admire your ability to control your feistiness for 2 years!…I never was able to, for 3 years (but the first year was actually fairly “normal,” relatively-speaking)…I think he liked that fight in me, in hindsight. He never even got mad about it… instead, he got mad if I was 2 minutes late or if I smiled at the UPS guy… good times, good times…lol

          63. Caroline,

            WHO gave that to him? Not good. I can see that it is causing you turmoil. Does he use it? At first read I thought you meant that he was calling you in the middle of the night though at second read, it doesn’t seem that way. In any case, can you block him? I’d hate to see you get sucked back into his world in any capacity. I tried to be friends with MRN post-escape and it did not work.

            All of the internalized feistiness made me ill. It also meant that MRN had no idea of who I was or what I was capable of, though I kept trying to warn him. He’d say ‘I know,’ but he really did not know. I am still unsure to this day of who he thought I was, because I certainly was not myself with him – almost deliberately so.

          64. SMH,
            I’m trying to be a bit cautious about specifics on here (paranoia sets in), so I’ll be over again sometime soon on that “other thread” that buries comments. But I kept one (seemingly small) private access aspect open to one of his family members, in case of “emergency.” You can’t do that, with NC… just can’t.
            #AnotherCautionaryTale

          65. Caroline, sorry that happened as your intentions were obviously very empathic but it is a good lesson for all of us. I hope to find your ‘buried’ comments elsewhere.

          66. SMH,
            Meaning I messed up by giving private contact info to the ex-BF’s family member, so don’t follow my misguided lead. 😉 (It’s always that leftover false guilt that screws me over!)…

          67. Caroline, yes, I was just mentioning the guilt in response to your other post. I think guilt is one of our greatest weaknesses. I wish I could get rid of it, along with second guessing myself all the time, which I think is related to the guilt issue.

          68. SMH,
            Me too — on the guilt, babe. Let’s work on it… and let’s not feel guilty if we make really slow progress. 😉

          69. Caroline, hahaha. I think we feel guilty that we are alive and thriving. That is where the savior stuff comes from after all, right? I just went into this long thought process somewhere with FYC about how I thought my recent flirtation with breaking NC was related to me wanting to rescue MRN rather than him rescuing me. I wanted to pluck him right out of his life and have him live mine. That savior streak is really dangerous!!

          70. SMH,
            It’s funny, because every time I’ve read about the Savior Empath, I’ve always felt I have absolutely no qualities of that in me… because I’m huge on people *only* being able save themselves — supporting/encouraging/guiding others, yes, that’s always doable & good… but I’ve always firmly believed you can’t “fix” other people…

            However, I forgot about the part of me that thinks that if I’m always there for someone – and listen & can respond back to them in such a way that I help them see for themselves what they need – that it can resolve the problem for them…I can see where that is quality overlaps into the Savior category.

            I’ve gotten a lot better in RL (since being on this site) in having firmer boundaries, with my time/energy spent in helping others… one of the biggest things is that I realize I may be able to help inspire others to change… but when they repeatedly show they are not willing to put their own effort into it — or they just show me that no, they’re not ready or wanting to change — I can 100% now let it go.

            That’s a significant change for me, and it’s helped me to not discouraged or too worn out also.

          71. Caroline,

            I hear you. I am also a sink or swim type but I am there in an instant if someone needs me, and I am very good in an emergency. I am a fixer and I think that is part of the savior empath profile. I haven’t had a consultation with HG about my type, but I am pretty sure savior would be dominant. It explains a lot about why I stayed with MRN for such a long time, why I kept going back, endless guilt, wanting to rescue him, etc. I just saw something in the news today that I know he is involved in. It is highly destructive and is the part that would have made it impossible for me to ever be with him in a serious way. But it is also the thing I want to save him from – it is not about his personal situation. I couldn’t care less about that. It is about his soul. I know he does not have one or he wouldn’t be able to do what he does but I can’t shake my belief that everyone has a core and a set of values and lines they will not cross. Not everyone does.

            I think in RL and with real people, saviour qualities are not bad to have but they are very dangerous when entangled with a narc.

          72. SMH (apologies if this is a repeat post/I’m having connection problems where I am),
            I’m so glad you got away from the MRN…and I had to laugh because when you mentioned seeing something in the news today that he’s “involved in,” the first news I saw this a.m. was on the crossing of the DMZ (I know, it’s not *that*, but lol). 😉

            P.S. Yep, I’m the “emergency helper” too… the “G” has a medical situation right now, which is one of the toughest things possible with my ET/guilt threshold…he (& one of his family members) contacted me about it. I soothed/was kind…but also reiterated my boundary…which is a bit like washing/drying a dog and then letting him outside in the rain with a big mud pit in the yard… not wise/won’t work out well.

          73. lol Caroline. He is Little Rocket Man in disguise :). Let’s put it this way, if MRN and I were both doctors, he would be the one carrying out executions while I would be the one in the emergency room saving lives.

            If it were me and my ‘G’ had a medical situation, I would also find it hard to NOT be the emergency room physician. I totally understand. I once supported an ex and really his whole family (developing country, kids’ mom had left, ex’s mother was abused by his father etc) while he was in jail for two years. He called when he got out, I said glad you are out and then did not speak to him again for 17 years. Believe me, I get how hard it is to wash your hands of someone. You can go NC again now that you have made yourself clear and done what you can do.

          74. I think HG leaving on and off is also a good exercise in itself to focus on your own life and what youve learned here.
            HG im never afraid will leave permanently. Hes got a life and so do we aside from the blog. If i feel in need i just pop on and read his writings and comments.
            Hes not under any obligation to tell readers his schedule.

          75. Chimum

            I agree – a good exercise in many ways. Also, a narcissist obliging or deferring to us with regard to rules involving his personal life and how he operates his blog would lose credibility as a narcissist (at least in my eyes) lol.

          76. HG
            Re: doing as you please
            I understand that your new dynamic with the SM is unique and only applicable to you, but I admit to a curiosity as to what modifications to your behaviour you have planned or already made.
            Do you intend to draw negative fuel from tertiary and secondary sources exclusively in order to maintain a sort of permanent golden period?
            I would be interested to hear you elaborate on that and either way, I hope everything will happen as you wish, you deserve to be permanently well fueled.

          77. Re: “operating pro socially” This would seem to be the place that the most intelligent Greaters will eventually arrive in their lives. They come to the realization that acting pro socially gets them more of what they want with much less trouble and hassle. Would you agree with that observation, HG?

          78. If acting pro social achieves the outcome then it would be adopted, but it faces competition from natural instinct, namely the desire to be the player of games.

          79. I can certainly see that the playing of games is the spice of life for the GN. Otherwise, what’s the point? Interesting answer. Thank you HG.

          80. Also, HG, doesn’t pro-social simply end up too much strawberry ice cream? I mean it would make sense for any narc to learn that pro-social gets them more of what they want, but that wall is always hit, no?

          81. SMH, I like your pro social/strawberry question. I wish HG had the time to answer.

          82. Hi MB, I thought the strawberry ice cream principle (SIP) applies to golden, positive fuel getting stale. I am guessing the new dynamic (ND) is more of a modified method of achieving the prime aims with less averse effect to his *primary* relationship. I commend HGs pro social ND efforts and hope he experiences a net positive from his efforts.

            Since no relationship is constantly golden and ever improving, I would think the real test for sustainable ND would be post golden period when the SIP might kick in. HG likes to win, so my money is on him making this a success for whatever period of time serves his greater purposes.

            I would love to hear the ND works really well and gives HG more options while protecting his primary source from dark, negative fuel seeking effects. And yes, I know that is a bit hopeful and hope is a liar, but so be it. I rather pull for the positive than the opposite and give benefit of the doubt to a successful outcome.😜😊

            MB, so glad you asked the question of HG. It would be great to hear more from him on this topic!

          83. FYC, I always pull for the positive too and protecting the IPPS from the “negative fuel seeking effects” (abuse) is probably the best we can hope for in the ND.

            Yes, we love HG for what he does for us here and how he interacts here. But let us never forget, he IS an abuser and has written abundant evidence to prove it.

          84. I do wonder though what ” less averse effect to his “primary” relationship” means for others. Is the abuse just being shifted? Would we then be celebrating the sparing of one at the expense of others? I don’t know how he envisions it working, but on the face of it, it doesn’t appear to change him or the narcissism – just the focus and target.

          85. NA, I agree. I don’t see how the need for contrasting negative fuel will be sated in the new dynamic. It seems that somebody will have to hurt at some point whether it is The Shieldmaiden or others in the matrix or both. Interesting to contemplate, but only time will tell.

          86. I have no idea if this comment will end up in the right place.

            Hello NA and MB,
            Yes, I am ever aware, due to HG’s writing that he is abusive and derives satisfaction from such actions. Since narcissists do not fundamentally change, awareness, understanding and behavior modification is the best possible change. HG is aware and understands his behavior and it’s effects. His ND, from the little he has written on it, is an effort to achieve his aims with less (not no) negative effect.

            To your point NA, his expressed desire to play games and seek fuel to feel powerful (which he has stated negative fuel provides to the greatest degree) is ongoing. I have no idea where HG plans to, or will release, his negative impulses. It would be great if he kept it to more deserving targets (Matrinarc et al, comes to mind, or random a-holes, or other narcs like his Vday coworker story), versus unwitting primary and secondary ‘offenders’ who ‘fail’ due to perceived slights or stale fuel. That said, he no doubt would rather operate unbridled in any way.

            If, HG desires to be broadly recognized and accepted as the leader in this space, prosocial behavior (like demonstrated on KTN) will go a very long way in helping him achieve his goals.

            MB & NA, thank you both for your comments. My mind is still spinning away on your points.

            On a lighter note, I saw a troll blow sparkle glitter instead of snot and immediately thought of MBs glitter everywhere🤣

          87. That’s my kind of troll FYC! Hopefully, the urge to write about the New Dynamic will hit one day and HG can give us more insight. For now, our minds spin as our hearts hope for the most benevolent outcome.

          88. FYC
            I hope that you did not take my comment as a criticism of yours. I very much liked your choice of words and they spoke to thoughts that I have had intermittently about how this ND might pan out. That is the reason I quoted you. There are many comments about how wonderful it will be if HG is able to be different with SM and I am always left with: sure, but how will the previous need for negative fuel manifest and be sated. I am taking the wait and see approach also, although I am aware that I may never truly know the result.

          89. Hi NA, lol, no, it would not occur time to feel criticized. I assume we are having an intellectual convo and questioning is a part of that and I welcome all points and counterpoints. I found you made an excellent point. I have more thoughts on this topic too, but really limited wireless data access. I’ll touch back with you in this in a couple days. You never need have concern with me, but it was sweet of you.

          1. Glad to see you HG. I decided to pop in on your IG apparently with both my personal and twilight accounts…..I shouldn’t look when at work! Apparently I became slightly irked at one of your “students” .

          2. It was “blog like”’with no moderation though! I thought I was highly narcissistic by having experienced anger until recently. I genuinely thought an empath was rubbing lotion on people’s calluses—which I am never doing. The feisty spirit was appreciated.

          3. No, thank you sir!! With you and MB back again, I feel like my family is all once again at home!! Hahaha! 😘😘💞🙃

  17. I guess this push-and-pull was long the _only_ way for men who wanted to make the woman the pursuer/the one who is longing for the other.

    Since women never initiated contact with men.
    Were specifically warned against it.

    Especially not the ones who Don Juan/gold diggers wanted.
    So their only chance was to first approach her lots and lots and lots, lots of courting. Then fade or stop. Silence for weeks. And then observe her reaction when he came back.

    Was she hooked? Did she secretly crave for him?

    Age old trick.

    These days we do dare to initiate contact (text messaging is very easy) But it is rare. We don’t really want to show our feelings.
    Though narcissists can tell, even from very short messages, obv.

    Ps. I’m not saying all narc men are thriving more and more these days when women do initiate contact/even ask men out.
    Because this confidence also makes us women less isolated.

    1. I had never been schooled about this “Age old trick,” until it was too late.

      Wish I had knew about it years ago.

      1. It was too late for me as well. I read about “Making the woman the pursuer” last year in a 16th/17th century Don Juan text.
        Immediately recognized this method from HG’s posts.

        They pose as a loving suitor, but when she is happiest they cancel meetings.

        Because:
        “A promise kept is a promise forgotten, but a promise broken will always be remembered”

        And the addictive lovebombing + sudden silence is apparently a very common feature.

        Should have read this stuff when I was a teenager.

  18. Oh yes this article!

    In the beginning he would get upset because I never texted him first thing in the morning – he said everybody does this so I of course started to do this. He would always add xxx – so if I sent x he would get upset. I started to send xxx at the end of my messages – every fucking message. I thought it was a bit much but of course I got swept up in it all. He was seducing me with poetry and songs and videos and lavish amounts of attention – soon it became ingrained and I would get upset if he sent a solitary x… how stupid eh! He turned the tables!

    God i’m not wasting anymore time thinking about the nex. I’ve forgiven myself for getting wrapped up in a mid’s web with his passive aggressive silent treatments meh!

    1. Mine was exactly the same. Exactly. It never ceases to amaze me how predictably the same they are

  19. This was the most annoying thing to me to be honest ..The texts from early morning.the ‘hey what are your plans for today? texts. It got to the point that within a month I was dreading them and rather than waiting for them to arrive, I stopped leaving my phone by my bed and instead left it on charge downstairs.I should have walked away then. because I’d decided he was way too needy for me…The biggest turn off in any man in my book but he kept telling me he’d back off which he would for about a week and then it would go back to Mr needy!! This is probably why the silent treatments never worked on me either, I was thankful of the break for a few days tbh.

  20. I never truly understood the addiction to him until I was talking to a friend last evening. When I read it this time I realized every time I would come up with a reason to contact him, ( no matter how valid they seemed) it was only my ET feeding my addiction to him. I never knew how addicted I really was, and all the things I had been doing wrong. 😔

    1. I am thinking crack would have been a less damaging addiction. This is utterly ridiculous and even more so that this personality disorder evolved into the human race.

    2. Not wrong FM1T. We’ve been told to follow our hearts our entire lives. That’s some very deep conditioning. It’s so unnatural to try to fight that. I imagine that’s how narcissist’s would feel if they actually tried to “feel” their emotions, completely against the grain.

  21. During the golden period, he would tell me that I am a gift he doesn‘t deserve.
    I was excited to have my kind and giving nature recognised by him in this way and felt understood. The self-deprication of his statement made me feel in control and so I was eager to provide him with even more, thinking I was doing this of my own accord.
    He would then proceed to sweeten my day by sending me a simple wrapped gift emoji when we were not together.
    Seeing these coloured pixels on my phone would bring a shining smile to my face. I would respond with a heart immediately, call him during a break „just to hear his voice“ and offer to cook him his favourite meal for dinner.
    I still have a reluctant admiration for how efficient he was.

    1. Desiree
      The self depreciation is a brilliant tactic.

      “…made me feel in control and so I was eager to provide him with even more, thinking I was doing this of my own accord.” His self deprecation combined with the nonstop flattery really made me feel so safe and in control, and caused me to drop my guard in a way that I’ve never done before.

      “I still have a reluctant admiration for how efficient he was.” –> I’m ashamed to admit I feel the same.

      1. Joanne

        I also felt that the self-deprecation was often mixed with some “I can be bad but I’ve been hurt before, too” sob stories that make you feel even safer because after all, he is just like you.
        A caring, generous person who has been taken advantage of but you are here to heal his wounds.
        As for the admiration, there is nothing to be ashamed of.
        Narcissists spend most of their waking hours either obtaining fuel or thinking about where to get it next, because they deem it as necessary to their survival as we need food and water.
        Like a hunter honing his skills, they know exactly where to aim because they have to study their prey so closely.
        There is something fascinating about how they stand still for a moment before fixing arrow to bow, then sending those arrows flying through the air, hitting the target.
        It’s a skill we’ll never possess, but then again we won’t need to.

        1. Desiree
          It IS fascinating. Although I wonder if we would find it half as interesting had we not been ensnared….

          1. Joanne
            That’s an excellent point I had not previously considered. Now I am wondering if the fascination is an extension of the inherent addiction to narcissism and emotional thinking..
            I am not certain but what I do believe is that my normal friends would likely be shaking their heads at such romantic descriptions and find our fascination to be bewildering to say the least.
            Now that I’ve acknowledged my admiration, I will push it from my mind in the future given that it’s most likely emotional thinking whispering in to me in the dark so let’s not go there again, I’ve done my time.

  22. Speaking of message hooks … HG, you’ve conditioned me to check your Twitter account @narcissist_me when I need a quick fix of your knowledge, and I can’t seem to find it tonight. Did you change the name on your account? Thank you

      1. Mr. Tudor, Add this to your monster to do list: remind a minion to change the link at narcsite to your new Twitter account.

  23. Now the day bleeds
    Into nightfall
    And you’re not here
    To get me through it all
    I let my guard down
    And then you pulled the rug
    I was getting kinda used to being someone you loved

  24. Well, I guess just goes to show (again) that I failed the test. I am a bad fuel source since I didn’t do these things (initiate the texting) but maybe once or twice. I certainly got the message when the text frequency dropped.

    It’s amazing to me to go back to all the old comments and see myself in so many others’ shoes — while they were going through this in 2016! I say this over and over but I’m so lucky to have caught on to his tricks so early, to have found narcsite so quickly. HG, you really need a regular segment in women’s publications. Imagine how many broken hearts, destroyed lives could be prevented if this information became mainstream?!

  25. “We have actively structured our approach so that you become conditioned to act this way. The ‘phone becomes the barometer of your day.”

    My God, that is so true. My ups and downs relied on that phone.

    I never wanted a stupid smart phone in the first place and was sorry that I was talked into one to get on a “family plan” a few months prior to meeting the narc. Had I stuck to my guns, I would never and could never have been a target for narcx. I actually resisted giving him my phone number prior to our first date, which we arranged by email.

    As it turned out, well, I paraphrase a knighted narc:

    Yeah when you text my name
    I salivate like a Pavlov dog

    If I ever have another relationship, I will refuse to text. I have significantly cut it out already in my friendships. If you want to hang out with me, we need to do it in person and make arrangement via a phone call. No back and forth emails,

    I received one text today and that was in response to something I sent a friend yesterday. So, I’m doing pretty well.

  26. I think this one encompasses a few addictions. Our phones are big ones to begin with, and then add in a dopamine rush from a lover and it’s an irresistible combination. Makes a lot of sense.

    1. empath007
      Good point. Like a double whammy. These stupid devices that we are addicted to, combined with the attention/affection pouring in through them from the narc.

      1. For sure! I wish I could burn my phone half the time lol. How is your no contact going Joanne? Remember… one day At a time, it will get easier 🙂

        1. empath007
          Welllllll, I kind of broke it and creeped on his social media. I re-blocked him right after that, and realize it was a dumb thing to do. Lots of new posts. I guess the bright side is that there was a very recent photo of him looking really disheveled and gross, so that was pretty satisfying 😉 Kind of annoyed with myself for doing that but back to blocking and NC now.

          1. No need to beat yourself up. It’s nearly impossible not to stalk someone’s social media in 2019 lol. It’s not as though the narc doesn’t do it too. But glad to hear you thought it best to block him again 🙂 except some relapse… that is a normal part of recovery.

          2. empath007
            It kind of is impossible not to stalk social media. It’s just too easy, the visibility is just THERE, out in the open. I’m glad I stumbled on a really unflattering post but I have to remember next time I might not be as lucky and end up seeing something that’ll hurt my feelings.

          3. Joanne,

            “It kind of is impossible not to stalk social media.”

            I hope you see it’s only your ET speaking here, right?

          4. AM
            Yes, I know 😑 I know it’s *possible* to avoid it, just very hard at times. After such a long time the curiosity got the best of me.

          5. I have done great not looking 99% of the time. The time I did look (just once in like 5 months) I was aghast at the deportment of his girlfriend and it bothers me my kids are subjected to a bar fly swallower. (Yes I’m sorry for conjuring up an image) but I am disgusted she is a “role model” for impressionable kids. My thinking needs to focus on me and not my disgust at his life so it’s highly destructive to look. Of course I’m right—but do I need to be right at the expense of my health?? It really is health related. I have enough circulating catecholamines. It’s fair that I wish he were mirroring a lady and hoodwinking someone with class but his choices aren’t mine to make.

          6. Hi joanne…i never ho on the narvs social media bc i know itd upset me or cause insecurity. I choose not to put myself thru that.

          7. CM
            It’s a good practice to just stay away. I was “lucky” to see a bad picture that time. I’m really working toward staying off now 😪

          8. Joanne,

            Sorry, didn’t mean to sound like I’m judging you or anything. We all fall into this kind of trap once in a while. It’s important (I think) that we recognize it for what it is and strive to improve. Direction is more important than current state or current results, as long as we keep learning and moving.

            I just wanted to make sure you (and also anybody else reading your comment) understands that of course, logically, it’s not impossible, and it’s only our ET trying to make us believe it is.

          9. AM
            no, I didn’t take it as judgey and you’re right. It is ET that allows that mentality. I was doing really well for awhile and then suddenly one day I decided to peek. I was bored and once the thought popped up the curiosity took over. Getting there…

          10. Hi joanne…trust me i looked many times on his social media and after being triangulated and gaslighted even something innocent could potentially be upsetting. I just got to the point i couldnt do it anymore. I guess you could call it self preservation over curiousity. When youre away long enough you feel safe emotionally and choose to not look.

      2. Joanne, I didn’t respect NC at the beginning out of boredom and curiosity, like you. But as Chihuahuamum said, I finally went NC for a question of self-preservation. Because I had stopped interacting with him, he started liking all my comments or pictures in other people’s profiles to call my attention and I decided that was it. I can’t believe I have survived a year without Facebook! Imagine having to quite the narc and your social media addiction all at once. But I haven’t gone back to either! So don’t get anxious, it will get easier with time.

  27. Soooooooo true.. I experienced this to the fullest extent during the golden days and respite periods..

    1. nunya biz – Nice/Ugly way to say it: Dependency really is obnoxious!

      Freedom is indeed lovely, but it can be scary sometimes, as well; hence, why I sometimes gravitate back to emotional thinking about the narcx, almost as an escape from scary freedom!

      1. Lisk and Nunya Biz, I find both dependency and freedom scary, so I have always bounced back and forth between the two. Right now I am having a long streak of freedom and I am scared I will get used to it! Ha. Not quite ready to shift back into dependency, however, and haven’t found anyone to be dependent on either so I guess the universe is deciding for me for the moment.

        1. “I find both dependency and freedom scary, so I have always bounced back and forth between the two.”

          Same here, SMH.

          1. Never found the balance, Nunya Biz, but am looking for it within myself now so I stop the bouncing. I think I am almost ready for someone new. I am moving countries soon, and I can relax.

      2. I think that is very true, lisk. I usually am doing well, but I have my lapses for sure.

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