Hounded By Love

HOUNDED BY LOVE

One of my ex girlfriends, Kate, was a big animal lover. She was always sponsoring some rare monkey in Africa or baking cakes to raise funds to save the gay whale or such like. People often remarked how fortunate I was to have someone so caring. I would tell them if she spent less time playing Dr Doolittle then maybe I would not have to sleep in the spare room so often to remind her of who she should be focused on. I remember this used to get me some puzzled looks and for an instant I could not understand why but then I worked out they thought I was being mean so I used to tell them the bed was always full of her dogs so there was no room for me. They would smile and nod. Too easy. You see, people will, most of the time, take the path of least resistance and this means that they will accept most explanations so long as there is some degree of plausibility about them. People need to find a reason and especially those of an empathic nature have to do so. Provide a reason to explain something away and people accept it. This is one of the main reasons why we are able to do as we do, because people either accept the explanations that we give for what is otherwise aberrant behaviour or they find a reason or explanation themselves (either blaming some third party event or influence or blaming themselves) rather than seeing the behaviour for what it is. I do not write this from a position of blaming people for thinking and behaving that way, it is understandable. They do not know what they are dealing with, they do not realise the person they are engaging with is a narcissist and they, as truth seekers, need to find a reason to explain the behaviour. They need to know and this invariably causes them to fall for what we tell them or what they tell themselves.

Anyway, she got involved in volunteering at an animal shelter which did not impress me and to add insult to injury she expected me to walk and feed her dog whilst she was out being St Francis of Assissi. I kid you not. So on the two evenings when she was helping out I would invite her sister Amanda over. She would feed the dog and I would pretend I had taken it for a walk. (So long as I let it out in the garden and did its business (which I would fling over into next door – I guess that’s why we have new neighbours) Kate thought the hound had been walked. Thus I was able to lure in Amanda. She was low hanging fruit. Ignored by her boyfriend it only took a couple of weeks of texts and declarations of compatibility and I was bedding her each time she came round. Kate would come home and spend most of her time petting her dog but I had someone else to distract me so I let that flagrant failure to give me attention slide a little. Not totally as I still used it to remind her of how neglectful she was of me. I did notice though that she was spending more time and more money on the hound and was obviously doing it to provoke me. Her sister Amanda then started to change. She was initially great fun, vibrant, passionate and interesting but then she got whiny and needy and had the audacity to start criticise my girlfriend Kate. That was not on. She would still call round twice a week, even when I stopped inviting her and I had grown tired of bedding her. I had decided that Kate was the better choice of the two and wanted to focus my attentions on her but she doted on that wretched dog.

Demonstrating the decisive decision making that is my hallmark I took prompt action. On an evening when Amanda had called over I agreed to sleep with her. Before doing so I let pooch out into the garden and opened the gate. I went through the motions with Amanda and then had just returned downstairs when Kate returned. A few moments passed and then she began to call for the dog and with increasing urgency. The hound had gone. I blamed Amanda. Cue sibling fall out. The upshot of it was Kate never spoke to her sister again. Amanda never called round and pestered me and the dog was gone.

Two birds and all that.

102 thoughts on “Hounded By Love

  1. Chihuahuamum says:

    I always am reminded of this article and use it as a red flag for detecting potential narcs.
    Three people now i’ve suspected as having npd.
    One had a pet and used it at a rough time in their life only to get rid of it after they no longer needed it. Not only that, but boasted about not caring about getting rid of it to me. It made be so upset and sick.
    The second made no secret about having no feeling towards pets and how much of a nuisance they are …this reminded me of your feelings HG. She was very open about it. She is not self aware, but i can see her npd clearly. That said, she does have qualities i did like and we get along well.
    The third is someone new and i’ve been picking up vibes from him. He’s what i think is a greater narc and very much self aware. He acts the part, but i have found he has gauged me in relation to being an animal person.
    I find i can now pick up on when a person is guaging who i am and not in a good way, but a manipulative way. I pretend i dont know anything about npd and i only give them the information i want them to know.

  2. Empath007 says:

    I may be opening a can of worms here… but has anyone else noticed the (what I’m positive is) the narcissistic trend to brand themselves with their dogs in order to upkeep the facade of being a caring person ? More and more people are using their dogs as a way to up their sex appeal, and facade of being nuturing – using them
    As a decoy. That and also – plants. Plants and dogs are being used to triangulate regularly now.

    As like any situation there are of course empath
    And normals who geniunely enjoy/care for
    These things… but be weary the next time you’re attracted to the guy in the picture with his dog…. could be a red flag in my opinion.

    1. WhoCares says:

      Empath007,

      I completely concur with this observation.
      It is something I have noticed as well.

      1. Empath007 says:

        It only makes sense … it’s a great triangulation tool to use a pet. And many, many people are doing this. Instagram is full of pictures of people and their dogs… and it’s apparently a hook on dating websites. A study was done that those with dogs in the picture were seen as more attractive. Behind the scenes I don’t think it’s as pretty.

        1. WhoCares says:

          Empath007,

          “it’s a great triangulation tool to use a pet.”
          Too true.

          I know a narcissist (confirmed by HG) who is known for her great “love” of animals. She opted to put down her retriever-mix dog (aging and long suffering) on New Year’s eve.
          What a way to triangulate with both her pet and a holiday while simultaneously banking on pity plays for years to come. (I know they “plan” like that if unaware, but you can bet that every New Year’s Eve from now on, her dog will come up on her radar and she will use the past to assert control in the present.)

    2. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi Empath 007…yes!! This greater acts the part baby talking to his dog deliberately to be heard. It seems put on because all other times i rarely see him engage with the dog.
      My mil would get soooo jealous at how excited our dogs would get when id come home. She hated it so much she would go off into another room. I found out while i was gone she was feeding the dogs things i didnt want them having to try and build a bond with them. Now when they wag their tails around her she starts bragging see how happy they are to see me. They love me. Pukeeee 🤮

    3. Joa says:

      Yes, dogs, children, interesting places. Often used.

      I was very close to politics for a while, also used dogs and a child – but I showed a part of my REAL life. Effective step.

      Companies also contribute to a better image, e.g. by presenting a canine or feline employee on their website 😊

      Red flags not necessarily – it might as well be someone who loves animals. You have to go deeper.

  3. k mac says:

    I dont mind other people’s animals as long as they don’t drool or jump on me. My kids talked me into a Golden retriever puppy. It ate my dining table. It lives somewhere else now.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      k mac, “It ate my dining table”…..hilarious. I suppose it’s now in the dog-house? 😉

      1. k mac says:

        He now lives with a lovely family that adores him. We get updates from time to time from them.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          k mac, that is good to know 🙂

    2. Joa says:

      Something like this is inconceivable and unacceptable to me.

      When I make a decision, that affects the lives of others (1. child, 2. dog), I do so by weighing up the pros and cons, anticipating the long-term consequences, possible adversities, and if I do, I never step back.

      I had a huge dilemma, when 7 years ago I adopted an old, apathetic and aggressive dog, who spent 10 years of his life behind the bars of a shelter. I was afraid of him, although I did not show it. My daughter persuaded me. A woman in the shelter said: “Take this dog for a few days, it will not be taken by anyone anyway, at most you will give it to us”. I looked at her in disbelief and replied: “If I decide to take him, it’s only forever.”

      And when an hour later, after walking with this indifferent creature, with whom no contact could be made, I made a decision, there was no longer any deviation from it. Even when the dog on the way to his new home several times vomited in my car some disgusting guts (blah), even when he bit me twice in the first weeks, even when I was afraid to sleep when he was lying in his bed.

      I took him out of the state of total apathy for 2 years. After half a year, he gently wagged his tail tip for the first time 🙂 A wonderful feeling!!! 🙂

      Yes… and I didn’t love any of my dogs as much as this one. And no one looked at me with eyes like this dog… Currently on the verge of life and death. The most beloved. The most wonderful. The most thankful. The worst and the best…

      The table is just an ordinary item. Nothing more. Failing the child’s expectations, undermining my own decision-making, and the fate of the dog, for which I took responsibility – that would hurt me a thousand times more than a broken piece of furniture.

      Yes, I am terrible about that. I don’t like withdrawing, giving up for any reason, being like a leaf fluttering in the wind, without its stem. But this is only a fragment of my life, incomparable to my sister, a totally animal empathetic devil 😀 Even I am fed up with her sometimes 😀

      1. k mac says:

        Joa,
        Although I can understand your position, I do not attach to animals the way I do people. We purchased this puppy with the understanding that my teenage daughter would undertake the responsibility of caring/training him. She refused to do the simplest tasks such as take him out to potty.
        We gave her months to step up or puppy was out. He destroyed so much more then the table. It was just the last straw. She was initially upset but happy to be relieved of her duties. My son could care less either way.
        The well being of the animal was important to me. I took the necessary steps to ensure he went to a good home where he would get the care and attention he deserves. As long as it wasn’t my home 😁

        1. Joa says:

          K Mac, I knew you would understand me ❤ That’s what I wanted.

          I need to reset from all over the world today. STOP everything for a while. But I’ll try to write more tomorrow.

          Kisses 🙂

        2. Chihuahuamum says:

          Hi Kmac
          Im glad you found the puppy a good home. The one person i mentioned above didnt and the dog was put down 🙁
          I never could look at them the same way again. Their mask came off permanently.

      2. k mac says:

        P.S. Joa,
        If he had vomited guts up in my car he would have been gone sooner 🤣🤣🤣 love you though ❤

        1. Joa says:

          K Mac, thank you for understanding me. Just that, I meant to broaden the perspective.

          I am not a geek like my sister, who wants to impose her stance on animals to the whole world and goes to extremes (sometimes I think her husband is holy, although he is also manipulative, but it’s a great family – with the added function of Noah’s Ark 😊 ).

          I’m afraid for her and her children. On Christmas Eve she was beaten up by a total psycho (no passers-by helped…), who is disturbed by all people and any life at all, and it is impossible not to notice my sister. My brother-in-law is a strong man and wise, I know that he appropriately intimidated the man, by giving him Christmas greetings on behalf of his wife (my sister) in his own apartment (full of culture, the other one is a dead coward who hid behind his partner’s back). May it work, because my sister will not back down. She is a very good and beautiful wife, a caring and a little overprotective mother, but this animal element is her mission in life. This should be understood and respected. If someone does not feel it, it is enough that they simply do not bother (and there are many disturbing, animal poisoners and bullies on purpose).

          —————–

          Your arguments about the responsibility of children are concrete. It should be. I have a problem with that. I take it all on myself, so my child makes great use of it, although she is a good girl. Who wouldn’t benefit? On the other hand, I believe that children learn the most by watching. So it’s important to correct and show yourself. Sooner or later it will pay off.

          —————–

          I’m glad the dog has a good life 😊 The most important thing is that he has been secured 😊

          —————–

          Yes, the guts were disgusting, I don’t know what they fed the animal. There was a lot of competition among the dogs, so he probably swallowed whole, what they gave, the dog was bitten and with ragged ears. It was a poor shelter, I always choose one. I am not interested in helping an animal from Africa through the Viva foundation, where my donations will be consumed by people, advertisements and bureaucracy along the way. If I help, then straightforwardly. And I make sure, I can see the tangible effect.

          Unfortunately, the dog has motion sickness, but we can do it – he vomits after 50 km of driving and we know the symptoms, so it is well, clean and efficiently organized. There were also many other problems, but there will always be a solution 😊 Not to mention the damage to the apartment – the other dog has separation anxiety, so he bit down half the house, before I found a solution in the form of a kennel cage.

          —————–

          I wrote down again. I guess I’m trying to relax, by turning my thoughts to pleasant things like you, my home and baby, animals, and even “my idealized N”. At work, a terrible emotional whirlwind associated with the struggle for power. They try to blow me on a mine, so that I can cover them. Men are cowards (a lot). I had to sabotage from below, ha ha ha.

          I’m a little bit tired. I now have 3 narcissists on top of me. The highest rank is over 70 years old and I undoubtedly respect him, but he is crazy because he does not want to give up power and burns his own achievements for over 40 years and wants to burn us (employees) too. The second one I despise, a hopeless coward and a bore, a figurehead by the head chief. Third, promoted by me, but recently wants too much. If I could, I’d throw it all to hell and I let them eat yourself up 😊

          Sorry for the length of this, somehow the same…

          1. k mac says:

            Joa ❤💋

      3. Asp Emp says:

        Joa, to do that for a dog that had been mistreated, for it to start to trust you as a human and especially after being in shelter for 10 years – you have a true empathic heart. Bless you for that and giving that dog a new life and to have the care / love of a human. It was lovely to read your comment about it x

        1. Joa says:

          It’s nothing. The benefits are mutual 🙂

      4. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi Joa
        Your story really touched me 💖 What you did for that dog is rare. He was lucky!!

        1. k mac says:

          Absolutely! We need people like Joa in the world to take these little monsters in 😁

          1. Joa says:

            Pfff, let’s not overdo it 🙂

      5. Liza says:

        100% agree with Joa, before adopting a living creature, one must weigh the pros the cons and consider the worst scenarios to be sure that no matter what happens you are not gonna abandon them. For having taken care of numerous animals ( i have never been the owner I just helped their owners when needed) I am sure that they are very sensitive to rejection and exhibit behaviors similar to depression in humans.

        I don’t mean to blame you K mac, I’m sure that you didn’t plan to abandon the puppy or had any ill intent, I understand that you wanted to please your daughter, that is totally fine. But in my opinion, it would have been maybe better to consider that children and teenagers are sometimes unreliable and impulsive, and only adopt an animal if you are ok with the eventuality that your child will get disinterested and that you would have to take care of them instead.

        1. k mac says:

          Nope Liza, by by puppy. I don’t feel bad about it one single bit. I’m not a monster, I found it a good home. I will not do it again. Lesson learned for sure. I know a lot of people feel super strong about this subject and are entitled to do so. I am not one of those people.
          One my very best friends had the biggest dog you can imagine. This dog insisted on sitting in my lap and wetting my leg with his drool. I made it known that when I come over that thing better be outside. Sorry not sorry.
          A work colleague of mine that I was very close with was a cat person. One of her cats died. I had to cover her shifts for 10 days because she was overcome by grief and could not come to work. Kept in mind there is no kitty bereavement leave. I did it because I know how devastated she was even though I didn’t relate. She wears her cats ashes around her neck in a locket. I thinks she’s nuts.

          1. Joa says:

            A bit crazy, but it doesn’t bother anyone 🙂

            It is said that every person has the right to 20 idiosyncrasies. Only when he exceeds this number can you suspect that he is crazy 🙂

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Joa, only 20 ‘idiosyncrasies’ per person?! That’s me fked then 😉

          3. Violetta says:

            “One my very best friends had the biggest dog you can imagine. This dog insisted on sitting in my lap and wetting my leg with his drool.”

            St. B, Swiss Mountain dog, Bernese, Great Pyr? They do have a tendency to drool, and the bigger they are, the more convinced they are that they are puppies who can sit on your lap. I love them madly, although I’ll put some paper towels to catch the drool.

    3. NarcAngel says:

      “ I don’t mind other people’s animals as long as they don’t drool or jump on me.”

      Switch “animals” for children and you have the sentiment of many as well.

      1. Violetta says:

        Every bodily function a child can produce has nailed me at some point.

        Speaking of which, Miss Minchin’s School for traumatized yuppie puppies has twice blocked my gaining unemployment, NOT initially for being “fired for cause,” although they had manipulated me to have such a pretext, but for earning insufficient wages during the time period. After they ignore my requests for check.stib copies, since I no longer had access to the electronic system, I got stubs from my bank and submitted them to unemployment. Then Miss Minchin’s announced I had indeed been “fired for cause.”

        After several unsuccessful appeals, I finally was granted a hearing, although I don’t have a date yet. Working on getting help from legal aid, but ET is sky-high. Confidence gradually returned after getting part-time work with a school-aged kid with ADHD and several phone interviews with a chain of Catholic schools emphasizing a classical education, complete with Latin, which led to talks of a campus visit, but Miss Minchin’s will undoubtedly try to demonstrate that I eat babies for breakfast, my gran’s a communist, and my cat has fleas. I’m afraid I’ll end up believing them, despite the fact that a look at former employee reviews revealed pattern of shady behavior.

        Is it worth it? Partly I want the money–i went through months of worry and fighting despair, wondering if God had just made me too weird for anything, while my brother dipped into his retirement account so I could pay my bills (he hasn’t sold a property so he can give me my share of our parents’ estate).

        There is at least the satisfaction that they have to pay their retainers a higher fee as long as this goes on. They usually have to pay them a set fee, whether they use them or not, but if they write any correspondence, it goes higher, if they have to file documents, higher still, and if they have to do any court appearances (including remote), still higher.

        Since this whole situation resulted from the director cutting costs by hiring people with low or no credentials, some of whom resent anyone who’d had access to education and higher pay grades, at least it should put a spoke in HER wheel. Directors are rewarded for keeping costs down, and they have several shady methods of doing it. I had wondered at the bizarre alliance between lead teacher GrinchLady (lower midrange, per HG) and the director (probably midrange but higher-functioning than GrinchLady): they mutually expressed contempt for each other out of each other’s hearing.

        Just ask me about Miss Minchin’s degree-earning program! They ought to be charged with racketeering.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Violetta, I am pleased that you have now managed to obtain a hearing. You ask whether it is worth it? Only you can answer that.

          However, I would suggest that you could consider taking someone with you (for support, and also as a witness) – you cannot be denied the right to have representation with you. Someone who knows you very well but not necessarily to speak on your behalf at the hearing unless they are a professional in the field ie a Trade Union Representative from external to the organisation.

          Also you need to be able to access employment in your future, so if you have evidence of such ‘inappropriate’ treatment by your previous employer, you have ‘backing’ as such as to why you would not consider putting forward your ex-employer as a reference for employment.

          The above are two main reasons, why, in my view, that a hearing is relevant in your case.

          Third reason – financially. To recoup your losses of unpaid work / unemployment.

          Adding to that, your suffered emotionally, mentally and possibly physically as a result of the whole ‘episode’ and how you were treated by your ex-employer. This may be a 4th reason to have the hearing – as you may be protected under such ‘protected disclosures’ of say, the Equality Act 2010 (in UK), especially in relation to say, your added vulnerabilities as someone with say, autism, if you feel there is any relevance, and / or appropriateness in relation to your case? Because if I made a declaration of my disabilities / vulnerabilities, and an employer used / abused that against me, it would be admissible as a contravention to Disability Discrimination Law, if it is applicable.

          Great that your brother was in a position to assist you 🙂

          Now, I wonder whether you would consider a consult with HG prior to this hearing and talk with him about what I have raised here – he is the best source and you may be able to obtain enough guidance to assist you at the hearing.

          Whatever you decide to do, Violetta, I wish you the best of luck and success in that 🙂

          1. Violetta says:

            Asp Emp:

            Thanks for your detailed answer.

            Legal aid told me they can’t assign me a lawyer until I have a hearing date. Once I have both and I have a better idea of what the procedure will be and whom the lawyer thinks should be subpoenaed, I will definitely want a consult. I’ll probably apply to the AAF for part of it: my present job pays way better per hour, but it’s only part time, except the week before Christmas when he was off school and I was with him all day. Tbh, I’m a little nervous about it, but everyone on here who’s had one had nothing but good things to say about their consults, and y’all have different prose styles, so it’s unlikely HG is writing them all himself! There would be considerable comfort in “going into” this hearing (it’ll be a phone hearing) knowing, “I’ve got a bigger sonofabitch on my side than you.”

            His parents paid me part time even when they were away for their holiday week and an additional week when they tested positive for Covid (very mild cases), but I miss feeling competent and useful. I can help him with his homework, even the math (which is even more poorly taught now than when I was a kid in the middle grades–thank God I had old battle-axes for the lower grades who just drilled us on tables). We’ve played soccer and hockey in the backyard to get the Zoomies out, and I got him hooked on Lewis Carroll. His parents gave me this amazing Christmas package when I had worked with him less than a month, whether because they’re always generous like this or they were pleased with the results: apparently, previous babysitters had been horrified by his tantrums, and he locked one out of the house. I told him when he started tantruming that I could out-tantrum him; I’d had years of practice. He said, “Prove it,” so I started stamping around, snarling, “They don’t want to find it. They’re jealous of me. You promised, Daddy. You promised I’d have it the very first day. I won’t talk to you ever again. You’re a rotten, mean father! You never give me anything I want! And I won’t go to school till I have it. Gimme that pen. You’re always making things difficult. I want to go in first before anybody else. Hey, Daddy, I want an Oompa Loompa. I want you to get me an Oompa Loompa right away.”

            He started laughing and forgot to be mad long before I would have got to the Snozzberries. Holy crap, being weird all my life was a help? Stone that the builders rejected….

            Speaking of being hounded, my 1st in-home meeting with the family, the golden-doodle vetted me. After half-an-hour of fierce barking, she licked my nose and demanded I rub her tummy. We are now good friends. I took both of them to their 1st dog park (she’s a year old and has had limited socializing during lockdown–occasional playdates with the old basset next door), and we all enjoyed it.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I have not written any of the testimonials, they are all submitted by satisfied clients.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, thank you for your response 🙂

            I am glad you are considering a consult, you will find it beneficial in your situation because HG will also have seen your comments on this employer in any case – so he has some background information already. He is a professional when he does his consults and very considerate to the individual’s circumstances, you will get the right advice.

            Thank you for sharing about the child you are working with. It can take time for a child to make a connection with someone who understands and can communicate with them. It does sound as if the parents have found you to be someone who can interact with their child, which is a positive thing.

            I can understand why you may feel nervous about talking with HG. I can assure you that you have no need to be nervous. It will be fine 🙂

          4. WhoCares says:

            Violetta,

            “He started laughing and forgot to be mad long before I would have got to the Snozzberries. Holy crap, being weird all my life was a help? Stone that the builders rejected….”

            Haha!

            On legal matters with a narcissist, a consult with HG is invaluable.
            I also know for me that re-listening to the logic bulletins and assistant packages on this topic (when I am nearing an upcoming court date) helps me stay calm and focused.

            Good luck in your matter and I hope if gets resolved before long!

          5. Violetta says:

            I know, HG, just being cheeky. Though you won’t release any private consult details, a number of Tudorites have chosen to discuss their consults, and mentioned techniques, very specific-to-the-situation, that you gave them for dealing with the custody battle, the love-bomber, the controlling parent, etc.

        2. Liza says:

          Hello Violleta,

          I may be saying something stupid, but did you consider working as a freelancer?

          If i remember correctly, you have a phd in literature, right? so you might be able to have a steady income for the time being, and it will relieve some stress while you are searching for a better job, and also give you a little respite from difficult social interactions.

          I’m sorry if I’m meddling, I thought it might interest you because your comment made me think of a friend who also studied literature and had some trouble finding a job she likes, so she started working as a freelancer, and she seems pretty satisfied.

          1. Violetta says:

            Liza:
            Not stupid at all! I did considerable dissertation editing through a grad school tutoring referral site, but I don’t have access to that anymore.
            I’d appreciate if you would ask your friend how she set up her business. Posting contact info on LinkedIn? Setting up a website?
            I’m hoping to get a job at one of the trad Catholic schools, but it would be great to supplement my part-time work with the school-aged kid in the meantime.

          2. Liza says:

            Violetta,

            She told me that she works with 2 apps; Livingstone research and Upwork.
            She said that she started with Livingstone research, but she didn’t like it so much, it is more like small projects that can be done in a few hours, if you want to do it as an extra it is a pretty good option, but it can’t be your principal occupation. The second one is more interesting if you want bigger projects, she said that there is greater diversity in the kind of projects that are present.

            No, she said that she never used LinkedIn or anything, you just set your profile on the app, you apply to projects you are interested in working for and you discuss it with the person who offers the project. if you find an agreement you do the task.

      2. Z - zwartbolleke says:

        👌🏻

      3. k mac says:

        Lol NarcAngel! I do love my children and would not give them away for eating my furniture. Although, I would probably have them tested 🤣

  4. Asp Emp says:

    “So long as I let it out in the garden and did its business (which I would fling over into next door – I guess that’s why we have new neighbours” – god, that made me laugh.

    I knew I should have done exactly the same when them fu*kens were living next door…..(I really wanted to – I suppose it’s the thought that counts, laughing)…..

    1. Violetta says:

      When I lived in Queens, there was an upstairs neighbor who let her little yap-yap run down the stairs while she locked up, when it usually left a puddle in front of my door. The super’s wife was no happier than I, and repeatedly spoke to the woman, without any result. I had friends with two very large barking beasties who explained to me about marking territory, and helpfully put some soaked napkins in a Ziploc bag for me. With the full connivance of the super’s wife, I put the unbagged, soaked napkins underneath the neighbor’s welcome mat, with the hope that her yap-yap would smell an intruder and not only immediately re-mark the territory of the doormat, but also continue the practice from then on, rather than marking my door.

      Problem solved.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I would have thrown it out of the window. Problem solved faster.

        1. Violetta says:

          She woke up earlier than I did. I’d have had to get up, dress, and catch it in the act. I only understood what was going on after telling the super’s wife about the recurring puddles (only vaguely recollecting the sound of yaps through my morning haze), and she said, “it’s that @#$& woman in 3-A.”

          When Sloth and Anger collide, I tend to prefer Sloth. Similar to Gluttony and Lust: Gluttony is simply more reliable in terms of obtaining satisfaction.

          You’d have thrown the yap-yap out the window or the @#$& woman in 3-A? Never occurred to me to defenestrate either, but @#$& 3-A probably could have used a good defenestration.

        2. Asp Emp says:

          Oohh, HG, I have to admit I started laughing at your response………(I’ll tell you a secret…..I’d be thinking of the same thoughts – just because of the ‘yap-yap’ as described, that’s not the sound of a dog ;-))

      2. Asp Emp says:

        Violetta, you should have pissed on that fu*kens own front door mat 😉

        1. k mac says:

          Asp 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

        2. Violetta says:

          I had that thought, but samples from my friend’s very large barking beasties seemed most likely to get the desired result from the yap-yap, and least likely to raise objections from the super’s wife.
          I suppose I could have put what Phish would describe as a Sample in a Jar and tipped it onto her mat, but that wouldn’t be as satisfying as delivering a fresh sample personally.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, I am sure the local park may have had some ‘available’ solid samples, then again, your friend can carry their dog’s poop bag and ‘spill’ it onto that address’s doormat. Those dogs would have at least twice as much to ‘deliver’ 😉

          2. Violetta says:

            Asp Emp:

            Urine was more appropriate to the purpose than dog poop. @#$& 3-A might spot or smell dog poop immediately, and thus clean it up, but she’d be less likely to know why her yap-yap had suddenly taken to pissing all over her own door-mat if it had been urine-treated. By the time she thought to clean under her mat and found the napkins, they might be dried up and she might never make the connection. Just a McDonald’s-loving litterbug randomly dumping used napkins under her doormat, or something.

            My friend’s giant barking beasties could produce pheromones likely to trigger the yap-yap’s territorial urges. I wasn’t sure mine were as useful, and besides, if the super’s wife caught me with my knicks down delivering a fresh-brewed personal sample in the hall, it might have had a negative effect on our alliance.

            But I did have the impulse….

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta,…..laughing so much…..especially at the last part.

      3. Joa says:

        Getting dirty and leaving the dog’s droppings is unacceptable. Nobody steps in a dog’s poop as often, as people who walk out onto lawns and clean up the poop, after their dogs. Damn! As a rule, young people clean, but older people are a problem. Sometimes really “cakes” like a cow in the middle of town, blah.

        I am also a supporter of leading dogs on leashes. My dog, my trouble. I hate when someone lets a dog loose, and he jumps on me when I’m on my way to work and I don’t want to walk with dog’s paw all day 😊

        People should also learn to ask: “Can I pet the dog?”. And when I say NO, respect it. Even if I say no, to your beloved child. As an owner, I know better how a dog can react.

        Self-proclaimed law enforcement officer 🙂

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Joa, you say some fantastic stuff at times that I can totally and utterly relate to!

          “Self-proclaimed law enforcement officer” – thank you so much for that (it makes me feel better for it :-)). I agree with the rest of your comment here too.

  5. Survivor X says:

    Oh, and I meant to say- lol I keep doing this on here-Mommypino don’t be so hard on yourself! Of course you have flaws and weaknesses. If you consider this perspective-narcs have done more damage in their lifetime than you or I can ever dream of. Your weaknesses and flaws are just a drop in the bucket. We freelance in our dysfunction and generally it seems to revolve around disordered persons like them, and yet they are at it full-time all the time. Let that imbecile take some of the rap. 🙂

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Survivor X
      Freelancing disfunction. Love it.

      1. Survivor X says:

        Lol thanks NarcAngel. I just think it’s a shame that regular folks will beat themselves up daily, ruminating over past mistakes as if we weren’t human beings who invariably make many errors and yet narcs are waking up every morning, exuberant about their next targets as if no other day existed, before.

  6. Better Call HG says:

    Hi HG,

    Welcome back! I’ve always been meaning to ask you about whether there is a relationship between certain narcissists and dog ownership. I’ve noticed that 4 narcissists I’ve been entangled with have made a big deal of being dog owners and/or being close with dogs. Two are confirmed narcissists via consultation with you (1 MMRN & 1 LMRN) and the other 2 I self-diagnosed as a MMRN and ULN since thanks to you I escaped before becoming ensnared.

    This often confused me because I would think narcissists would view dogs similar to you as something that is taking away attention from them and that the dogs also require someone to take care of them. After reading Fuel, I am starting to think dogs are like any other appliance that can be shown off/used to attract attention. Would it be accurate to say that some mid-range narcissists are drawn to dog ownership because it’s an easy way to expand their fuel matrix/access to fuel, boosts their facade by making them looking kind and decent, and increase the odds of luring in empathic people for ensnarement? Plus they could also use the dogs for triangulation purposes?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Dogs are used for triangulation like any other object.

    2. Joa says:

      The first narcissist, I was with, had many pets. Each of them was fun as long as they were young and the object of “admiration” or “disgust”. If it weren’t for me and his empathetic family, their end would be miserable, he would simply stop caring for his “beloved” pet.

      Currently, he has taken a dog from a shelter. Aggressive breed, with scars from chains and knives (I read the dog’s story and saw the photos, half of the back was a wound of raw meat). The dog is now a domestic pet 🙂

      Simultaneously:
      – He has built up a strong bond with the current woman (he doesn’t want another child, substitute).
      – A bow to me (the shelter, the greatest poverty in dogs, sends me photos and videos on a regular basis).
      – Triangulation with a woman between us and many others (movies with his caressing voice – towards the dog, and many others).
      – Admire hundreds of real friends.
      – Admire thousands of friends on social media.
      – The gratitude of the girls from the shelter and foundations, that lift him to the skies 🙂

      I must also add, that the dog was one of the reasons why it was very difficult for me to part with him, when I no longer loved him. My sister was also in a relationship for 2 years longer because of the dog, and after the end of the relationship, she went for walks with him and gave him food.

      I treat the contact with the first narcissist with a grain of salt. No danger. I can only love 1 man at a time. I watch his actions with interest 🙂

      The dog itself is doing very well. He and his woman (probably his future wife) take great care of him. Dog will be in the center of N.’s attention for several years, and in his old age the dog will surely be taken over by N.’s family or a woman (I have no doubts), so summa summarum, it is very good that the dog came to him from behind the shelter bars. He has a great life now 🙂

      —————–

      “My N” did exactly the same as HG (gate ajar), only to his twin sister’s dog, when she left the dog in their mother’s care. I will not refer to these events, because I would have to use a very uncultured epithet.
      The animals do not bother him, he even strokes him and smiles, but he is completely indifferent to their fate. And when they distract, they must disappear.

      So a dog, an animal, can be both a link and a rival.

  7. Survivorx says:

    My father was, I believe, a narcissist. He was extremely controlling, abusive, and isolating. My mother, he, and five siblings lived in a neighborhood where we had absolutely nothing in common with anyone. My mother wasn’t even allowed to choose the house that we lived in, and she always would say that she hated our home, and the neighborhood in which we lived. Our neighborhood was filled with working-class people, mainly trailer trash who seemed to look upon all of us with contempt, as we seemed and probably were quite superior acting and snobbish at times. He then fostered an “us against them” mentality with many of the neighbors. My father and mother were what I term “crazy Catholic”, or “fundamentalist Catholic” and they felt they were surrounded by detractors of God’s infinite will. I wasn’t interested in all the “god” stuff, especially since my father beat us mercilessly, even when we were praying, for mumbling, or not standing up straight, etc. During this time, perhaps to escape the reality of the situation and to have one living being that would listen to me and be a loyal friend, I became utterly immersed in dogs. I knew all of the dog breeds, I begged my parent to get me one, and I would often show guests of my parents the various breeds in our many encyclopedias, as we had many books in the house. I prayed endlessly at my parents’ suggestion that I could become like Saint Francis, for he could communicate with the animals and they with him.

    My father was very achievement-oriented, but simultaneously sabotaged my siblings and my success by forcing us to go to area schools for the religious aspects. My mother and father seemed alarmed at my love of animals, dogs especially and frequently told me that they were not as important as people. People, from my experience, however seemed quite awful. My peers bullied me mercilessly, my father, mother and siblings took their anger out on me with verbal and physical violence. We had no friends on the block then. All we had surrounding us were cranky old people who hated how loud my family was, and would make cutting remarks to my mother about having too many children, and us to quiet down.

    My aunt and grandma took pity on me and obtained a dog from a shelter for my birthday. I was elated. He was a Scottish terrier poodle mix I named ‘Scottie’. My brother refused to call him by his name, and instead called him ‘Smelly Dog’. I however LOVED ‘Smelly Dog’ aka ‘Scottie’. My father seemed overly preoccupied with his “loyalty”. He was deemed a “disloyal dog”by him and siblings, as he was constantly running off. My mother actually scraped her knee once trying to grab him as he bounded out the door, his black curls flying down the street. It’s as if Scottie knew that the home he was living in was god-awful. Often, pets will mirror the behavior of their owners, and I had a good deal of anxiety and stomach issues as a result. Both he and I suffered through severe anxiety caused by our volatile home environment and he and I would vomit often. The first time he ran, the vet when they found him the first time from his old tags, advised that we neuter him, and this elopement behavior would dissipate. My father refused to do so, but continued to become angrier and angrier at Scottie for being so apparently difficult and disloyal to his home and family. My father called him ‘Disloyal Dog’ from here on out.

    My mother became very ill and died two months later around the holidays. To this day I cannot stand Christmas. I came home from school a month or so later and Scottie was gone, again. My father related to me that the ‘Disloyal Dog’ had ran, and he couldn’t find him. A few weeks later, my father became rageful at something that I or my siblings had done, and he blurted out that Scottie had been found, but he was sick of him running and he left him in the woods near our home to live out the rest of his days. I was horrified and baffled at the callousness of my father as he knew how much I loved the dog. He did something similar a few years later to my grandmother and her dog. She had dementia and was treating it like a baby, but it was harmless. This is how he treated everyone he “loved” in one way or another.

    Now I understand why and what a monster he was. Now I understand why I gravitated towards other narcissists.

    He has since passed away quite recently, and I feel a sense of relief that both my parents are gone. To this day, I cannot bring myself to get another dog. I still mourn the loss of my best friend, and I am strictly a cat person now.

    1. Violetta says:

      Religious narcs can be the worst. It’s not just For Your Own Good, but even God says so!

      I believe in God, and I fervently hope he will call to account all the people who drove children AWAY from him with their misrepresentations.

      1. Joa says:

        Violetta, here is the true act of faith…

  8. Survivorx says:

    My father was, I believe, a narcissist. He was extremely controlling, abusive, and isolating. My mother, he, and five siblings lived in a neighborhood where we had absolutely nothing in common with anyone. My mother wasn’t even allowed to choose the house that we lived in, and she always would say that she hated our home, and the neighborhood in which we lived. Our neighborhood was filled with working-class people, mainly trailer trash who seemed to look upon all of us with contempt, as we seemed and probably were quite superior acting and snobbish at times. He fostered an “us against them” mentality with many of the neighbors. My father and mother were what I term “crazy Catholic”, or “fundamentalist Catholic” and they felt they were surrounded by detractors of God’s infinite will. I wasn’t interested in all the “god” stuff, especially since my father beat us mercilessly, even when we were praying, for mumbling, or not standing up straight, etc. During this time, perhaps to escape the reality of the situation and to have one living being that would listen to me and be a loyal friend, I became utterly immersed in dogs. I knew all of the dog breeds, I begged my parent to get me one, and I would often show guests of my parents the various breeds in our many encyclopedias, as we had many books in the house. I prayed endlessly at my parents’ suggestion that I could become like Saint Francis, for he could communicate with the animals and they with him. In this way, would never be lonely again.

    My father was very achievement-oriented, but simultaneously sabotaged my siblings and my success by forcing us to go to area schools for the religious aspects and to isolate us as many of our peers and even teachers who admonished us for asking too many questions in class couldn’t stand us. My mother and father seemed alarmed at my love of animals, dogs especially and frequently told me that they were not as important as people. People, from my experience, however seemed quite awful even though I desperately wished to fit in with them. My peers bullied me mercilessly, and my father, mother and siblings took their anger out on me with verbal and physical violence. We had no friends on the block then. All we had surrounding us were cranky old people who hated how loud my family was, and would make cutting remarks to my mother about having too many children, and us to “quiet down, for god’s sake”.

    My aunt and grandma took pity on me and obtained a dog from a shelter for my birthday. I was elated. He was a Scottish terrier poodle mix I named ‘Scottie’. My brother refused to call him by his name, and instead called him ‘Smelly Dog’. I however LOVED ‘Smelly Dog’ aka ‘Scottie’. My father seemed overly preoccupied with his “loyalty”. He was deemed a “disloyal dog” by him and siblings, as he was constantly running off. My mother actually scraped her knee once trying to grab him as he bounded out the door, his black curls flying down the street. It’s as if Scottie knew that the home he was living in was god-awful. Often, pets will mirror the behavior of their owners, and I had a good deal of anxiety and stomach issues as a result. Both he and I suffered through severe anxiety caused by our volatile home environment and he and I would vomit often, almost allergic to our surroundings. The first time he ran, the vet when they found him the first time from his old tags, advised that we neuter him, and this elopement behavior would dissipate. My father refused to do so, but continued to become angrier and angrier at Scottie for being so apparently difficult and disloyal to his home and family. My father called him ‘Disloyal Dog’ from here on out.

    My mother became very ill and died two months later around the holidays. To this day I cannot stand Christmas even though I try to put on a merry demeanor during the holidays as it’s not the world’s fault that holidays are ruined for me. I actually prefer ordinary days even as an adult…During these ordinary days, however I came home from school a month or so later and Scottie was gone, again. My father related to me that the ‘Disloyal Dog’ had ran, and he couldn’t find him. A few weeks later, my father became rageful at something that I or my siblings had done, and he blurted out that Scottie had been found, but he was sick of him running and he left him in the woods near our home to live out the rest of his days. I was horrified and baffled at the callousness of my father as he knew how much I loved the dog. He did something similar a few years later to my grandmother and her dog. She had dementia and was treating it like a baby, but it was harmless. This is how he treated everyone he “loved” in one way or another.

    Now I understand why and what a monster he was. Now I understand why I gravitated towards other narcissists and endured their abuse both personally and professionally. I do have one sad gift from all this. I can tell if someone is off in this way within minutes of speaking to them, however I formerly did not listen to my instincts. Now I have slowly learned to listen to my gut.

    He has since passed away quite recently, and I feel a sense of relief that both my parents are gone. To this day, I cannot bring myself to get another dog. I still mourn the loss of my best friend, and I am strictly a cat person now.

    1. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi survivorx ..your story is so sad. Im so very sorry about your dog. This isnt the first time ive heard of a narc parent doing something horrible to a pet. Its so traumatic! My dad would abuse our dog. He shot it around the yard with a b b gun and i can still hear the yelps in my head. To this day i get very anxious hearing a dog yelp its so painful emotionally and then i feel rage. I wont mention what else hes done but i have a contempt for people that abuse animals in particular. It really upsets me.
      I grew up with dogs then for many years only had cats and i prefer dogs lol i love animals but dogs are my favorite. You should think about getting a dog itd probably be very healing in a lot of ways. You werent responsible for what happened to scottie just as i wasnt for the abuse on my dog. Thats solely on your dad and him alone.

      1. Survivor X says:

        Thank you for your kind words, Chihuahuamum. My hubs and I have 2 male cats that act like dogs and one that is the size of a dog and who barks at birds . (He makes the weirdest sounds, it’s glorious.), lol, so it’s all good. They are also easier to care for and we love to travel and a dog would be so much responsibility. I used to walk dogs quite often along with my other job just for the therapeutic aspects, alone. I tried to volunteer at a shelter nearby, but it’s a very popular spot to walk and exercise dogs. Perhaps one day we will get a dog. I do love that cats don’t follow ‘orders’ of humans and do what they like—I enjoy living vicariously through their mischief and blatant disregard for authority. Plus:

        Bonus #1: My father hated cats. When he found out on his deathbed that we had cats, he said he wanted to kill them both.

        Bonus #2: It keeps my siblings away from my home as many are allergic.

        1. Chihuahuamum says:

          It sounds like youve come a long way survivor!! I had a tabby that made bird sounds to mirror the birds lol it was funny to watch!
          Yes the travel aspect is tricky. My chi is my baby where i go she goes. She travels with me regardless where it may be. I get her on flights and she wins the attendants over so im able to hold her in my sling 🤣
          Im glad to hear youre doing well 🤗

          1. Survivor X says:

            I definitely have. I am very fortunate in many ways. I think perhaps that was what narcs envy in me–one of the things, anyway–my ability to bounce back. The pain is excruciating in the moment, however. My father used to say as a back-handed compliment that I needed a strong man to keep up w/ me. I didn’t understand at the time, but now I think that I do. Oh wow! I think that is a Tabby thing. Our Tabby Purrrd is the one that barks. It kills me. I thought about getting a little dog. Purrrd LOVES playing with dogs. He was playing w/ our neighbor dog yesterday.

          2. Survivor X says:

            How is your Chi, Chihuahuamum?

      2. Survivor X says:

        Sorry I’m a bit new to this platform, but I forgot to mention that I’m truly sorry for what your father did to your dog. That’s horrific!

        Isn’t it funny how we do the apologizing for the narcissists and abusers in our lives and they NEVER apologize for anything?

        1. Chihuahuamum says:

          Ty survivor…i know i do that as well apologizing or rationalizing abuse bc of abuse even.
          Ive had to tuck the things hes done deep away or id have nothing to do with my dad.

          1. Survivor X says:

            I stopped interacting with my dad when I was about 18. Idk if I’m an empath, or what, but I was almost allergic to his presence. I couldn’t wait to move out of our childhood home. I ran away from home and begged my sister to assist in emancipation, as she was a lawyer. I don’t know how any of my siblings kept in touch with him. He would send me awful letters, and poems guilting me about not talking to him, reminding me about how I owed he and my mother for caring for me when I was ill as a small child even though it was their fault that I was sick as they refused to take me to the doctor. He convinced my brother to publish them. They are the worst pieces of rubbish I’ve ever read on Amazon. I’m no stranger to ‘Dysfunction Junction’, lol, but thankfully I’ve retained my sense of humor. It looks like you have, also! We women are strong! <3

        2. Chihuahuamum says:

          Hi survivor…thats so funny about your cat! I was thinking yesterday i wonder how her cat would take to a dog well i guess quite well!! Lol too cute!
          My narc grandmother used to curse me for my stubborness. Shed say i was the most stubborn person shed met and shes right. Its not a blessing tho bc its kept me in bad situations or prevented me from other options or pathways in life.
          Allergic yes being allergic to toxins whether environmental or people our bodies are geared to reject these and it comes out in different ways. With my narc mum and brother i feel physically sick and anxious around them. I only see my mother at certain family events like birthdays etc and its gotten to the point i take cbd oil to relax myself. They are toxic and your bodys telling you so. Im glad you went no contact and no need to ever feel guilty that guilt is for your father alone!

          1. Survivor X says:

            Thank you. He has passed away so it’s a lot easier, but it was hard for a time as my family would call me constantly to see him in the hospital. I had to block them eventually. It wasn’t something I wanted to do, I felt very badly that he was suffering in his illness, but I also felt myself going crazy over time–there was like a black void surrounding him and I felt so nauseous and disturbed and I did go to visit out of guilt, but “not enough” for them. So nuts. I was tired of my world revolving around abusers and their needs, also. He didn’t care anyway. When he saw me he told my husband and I that he figured it would be the last time and was ready to die. He didn’t seem phased at all like they were saying. He said he wished he could kill my cats. This is what he did my whole life. Very common for narcissists to cry and say they regret things, but it’s never to the people they need to apologize to actually. It’s merely to keep the attention and victimhood on them.

  9. Pamela Dianne says:

    I can’t believe she left you.

  10. Claire says:

    This is hilarious and I know many narcissists who are great dog owners—the dogs give loads of fuel and attract attention. I have a feeling you don’t really dislike them—you are just not fueled by them and don’t want to clean up after them. If you had a little Bichon puppy you would be king of the mountain at the local park.

    1. foolme1time says:

      No Claire, the dog would get more attention then he would, that is unheard of silly empath! 🙃

      1. Claire says:

        Christ you think of everything. But the fuel from the sex with drooling puppy lovers.. It’s potentially unparalleled..

        1. foolme1time says:

          Not if the puppy were in the same room!! Hahaha 🙃

          1. Claire says:

            They just lay on the floor during sex. They don’t usually jump on the bed.

          2. foolme1time says:

            Oh yes but how did you know they were lying on the floor unless you were looking at them? How dare you look upon a dog when your eyes and attention should only be on him! Shame on you! They don’t usually jump on the bed?! He would be appalled! 🤣🤣🤣🙃

          3. Claire says:

            In my recollection it is always the cats that jump on the bed! It’s been so long my memory is fuzzy! Haha

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Well the cerebrals usually just lay on the floor during sex, but the………
            oh…sorry…you meant the dogs. Never mind.

          5. nunya biz says:

            NA, HA!

  11. Chihuahuamum says:

    I really hope kate found her dog 🙁

    1. Lou says:

      It seems she did. I remember reading the dog was found later in a previous thread.

  12. Michelle Tarrant says:

    Is it bad that I chuckled at “two birds and all that”…….

  13. Twisted Heart says:

    “…and had the audacity to criticize my girlfriend Kate.” Haha. You’re unreal Tudor!

    1. Survivor X says:

      I think this is what ‘broke the spell’ for me. I can’t stand excessive hypocrisy (We’re all hypocrites to an extent, but, the narc takes it to another level.) and arrogance. Those two things are a serious turn-off.

  14. empath007 says:

    Miserable, petty, immature… Narcissist.

    I hope they ended up making amends in the distant future from this incident.

    You mention how people will believe anything with slight plausibility… see, that’s the thing about me.. I don’t. I must have drove my narc CRAZY with challenge fuel because I NEVER accepted his lies. Would challenge them with everything I had. The only time I felt a sense of relieve was when he finally told me what he was.. because.. finally, I had the truth and I didn’t need any further explanations. Next time I won’t wait that long. I am very rarely wrong about people. Empaths have an intuition reading people better then most just like the narc, but we unfortunately second guess ourselves for reasons you know and have described all too well.

    1. mommypino says:

      I don’t think I will be friends with a sister or a friend again if she slept with my boyfriend/husband. That just says a lot about their character when they do that to a sister or a friend.

      1. empath007 says:

        This is just my unpopular opinion… but I would forgive my sister for making a human mistake with a man who was cunning and manipulative and did not treat me with any real respect. Had HG not been a narc chances are she would t have cheated. Chances are your sister ( I’m speaking hypothetically as I don’t know these ppl) but chances are high your sister had been with you through thick and thin on a REAL level.

        No man is worth messing that up. People loose sight of what’s actually important over petty jealousy. And that’s how narcs contiune to win these battles.

        1. mommypino says:

          “Chances are your sister ( I’m speaking hypothetically as I don’t know these ppl) but chances are high your sister had been with you through thick and thin on a REAL level.”

          But that makes the betrayal even worse. She’s the one who messed it up. It’s not my obligation to welcome back people that betrayed me just because we shared ‘real’ level history together. It’s just my personal preference. I’m not saying everyone should be unforgiving like me. I just know that in my heart of hearts I will never be able to put that aside.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            MommyP
            Devil’s advocate:

            Would you consider your character to be any less and would you have wanted your husband to forgive if you had given in to the handyman?

          2. mommypino says:

            Hi NA, I will answer your question at the end. I want to first clarify what I said a little bit. And I want to say that this is how I personally feel and I am not saying that my feelings are what everybody should have. I think that it is a different situation to cheat on your partner than to betray a friend or sister by having sex with the person that they love. I know the saying that we should never say never, and nobody has to believe me either, but I really believe that I will never do that to a friend. And if I did that to a friend then I am not really that person’s friend, there is a crack in that friendship and it shouldn’t even be called friendship. I have very few friends in life although I have plenty of acquaintances. The few friends that I have, two from fifth grade, two from 3rd yr HS, one from college and two here in the US are all put in a pedestal in my mind. The thought of me having an affair with their husbands repulses me so it doesn’t even cross my mind except here for an intellectual discussion. I am always a cheerleader for each of them and whether I am happy for them for having found the person that makes them happy, or reprimand them for being unreasonable or immature to that person, or support them and protect them if that person turns out to be mean to them, I am always in their corner. I don’t expect my friends to put me in a pedestal the same way that I do to them, but I expect some loyalty and respect or deference towards me as their friend and that should be enough to prevent them from sleeping with my partner even if he was a manipulative evil and seductive narc. They should be in my corner that if the narc put the moves on them they should stay away and at least give me some hints that he’s not a good guy because that is what I would do.

            And to answer your question, I have a tendency to self flagellate so I will definitely be very hard on myself if I had given in to the handyman. I would be writing here all the time about how horrible I am and you would probably tell me to not be so hard on myself. I also believe that my husband will forgive me way before I would ever forgive myself.

          3. empath007 says:

            Fair enough it’s a complex issue. But the real problem here was HG. He came between them… and on purpose (in this particular example I don’t know the history of the nature of thier relationship) If they’d had focused more on their relationship (as sisters) I suspect that would have been much more worth thier time.

            But I respect your opinion. And I even understand it.

      2. Survivor X says:

        I’m not saying what the sister did was right, but keep in mind that narcs will often make the best of us do things that we would never do normally. Never say never. Anything is possible if they mess with your head enough.

        1. mommypino says:

          We win battles against a narcs when we make decisions based on what’s best for us and not what will piss them off or prove them wrong or please them. We win the battle when we don’t play. For me it’s not in my best interest to surround myself with friends who might sleep with my partner if he messed with their heads enough. I don’t want to put myself in that insecure position.

          1. Survivor X says:

            I understand your p.o.v. I just speak from personal experience when I say that narcs can and will press you to do and say things that you would never do otherwise. It’s not about strength of priniciple or a comment on someone’s ability to be faithful, a good sister, friend, whatever. Anyone’s head is fare game. A lot of ppl that know me consider me to be a pretty strong and ethical person, and even I did do things that I’m embarrassed about to this day with my narc that I’d never done, before or since.
            This isn’t to say that outside the narc situation people aren’t responsible for their actions and behavior, but things can and do get dicey with the disordered person. They are experts at manipulation and brain washing. I used to feel that things were more black and white until I became entangled with mine. Being cautious with whom you associate with is helpful, but it will not protect you from their behavior. Personally I couldn’t see myself going so far as to sleep with my sister’s or friend’s significant other, but I don’t rule it out as a possiblity, anymore. Anything is possible when you’re involved with these toxic individuals.

        2. MommyPino says:

          Thank you Survivor X for understanding my POV. I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I am not morally or ethically superior than any of the victims here. I think that I am also full of weaknesses that a manipulative person with no empathy can exploit easily which is why I’m trying to learn here. I discovered that when I was so close to cheating on my husband who is an intelligent, handsome and good person with a narc handyman whom I have never met before and only worked at our house for about two weeks. I never thought that it would ever happen but it did. It made me realize that I’m more vulnerable than I am aware of. I could have partially reacted to this with ET as well but just like you, I also do not see myself ever doing it to any of my friends. It’s just no matter how hard I try to imagine it I really can’t see any possibility of me ever doing that to a friend. But also I know that even if my friend was manipulated, I will not be able to forgive her after that. I am not always a forgiving person. Maybe I will be able to understand them, but I still can’t see myself having friendship with them again.

          1. Survivor X says:

            I completely understand–more than you know. I’m not a cheater, but with my narc he had me pleading with him to choose me. It was incredibly bizarre. I was entirely brainwashed after 5-6 years. He had me thinking that one day things would change, but even still I never normally would be the type to be with one person while at the same time awaiting another person to get their head out of their ass. 🙂 . Essentially, they get you to behave like them so they can lie to themselves and say we are just as bad as they are and that they can get us to do whatever. Power trip, I suppose. My narc said ultimately that he liked messing with married people. He got off on being a homewrecker. Thankfully we never met up IRL. He’s a self-proclaimed sex addict, gambling and drug addict, not to mention master manipulator. Still, as you say, I can’t see myself hooking up with my sister’s boyfriends/husbands. Stay strong! <3

      3. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi mommypino…i agree itd be hard to forget. Forgive yes but forget not as easy bc trust has been broken.

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