What is Future Faking?
I will tell you later.
What did you feel when you read that sentence above after being drawn by the title of this article? Disappointment? Irritation? Annoyance? Amusement? A familiar tightness in the chest? A mixture of all of the above?
Future faking is a common manipulation used by all narcissists.
Lesser Narcissists – often, lacking in sophistication, instinctive, vague, can be of questionable provenance.
‘I want to see you again.’
‘I want to marry you.’
‘I will buy you that mansion’ (Even though the narcissist has no money and no job).
Mid Range Narcissists – often, subtle and more sophisticated, instinctive, more likely to be specific, more likely to be plausible
‘I want us to go on holiday this summer together, somewhere like the Maldives.’
‘I can see you and me as a married couple, I want to marry you in the Autumn next year by the latest.’
‘Start looking for that new car I will buy you, why not have a look at the Mercedes dealership over at Pleasantville?’
Greater Narcissists – infrequent (Greater Narcissists are more likely to deliver), greater sophistication, sometimes instinctive but usually calculated, highly plausible.
‘I have e-mailed you some houses to look at. I really like the fourth and sixth ones in the list. They are in the countryside so there will be room for the animals to roam as well, but not so far away as to make getting to work a chore. You have a look at it and let me know what you think. We can talk about this over dinner.’
What is Future Faking?
It is the imposition of control and acquisition of fuel in the NOW using a FUTURE event.
Read that sentence again.
It is the imposition of control and acquisition of fuel in the NOW using a FUTURE event.
Our victims find future faking upsetting, bewildering and infuriating. Why did he promise to marry me and never do it? Why tell me we would live together if he never intended to go through with it? Why arrange to have dinner with me and then fail to show up, not even texting me to say he could not make it?
There was never any intention to deliver on the original statement but you were conned into thinking that the intention was genuine.
Why were you conned?
- Future Faking is an easy manipulation to use because it relies on a spoken/written intent with no associated requirement to deliver. Thus it is very low in energy expenditure and as you know, we like to achieve the maximum outcome with the minimum expenditure of time, energy, money etc.
- You as an empathic victim operate on the basis that if you say you will do something, you will (unless there are exceptionally valid reasons) deliver on that promise. Therefore you expect others to operate to the same standard of behaviour. You are goaded into thinking that since the person you are entangled with is similar to you (because you do not know he or she is a narcissist) they will behave in the same way as you, i.e. deliver on the promise.
- Your emotional thinking wants you to continue to engage with the narcissist. Therefore it corrupts your empathic traits for example, Honesty, Love Devotee and/or Decency into believing that the narcissist will deliver on this stated intention because that is what honest and decent people do. We are neither honest or decent – you however do not know that or you fail to abide by the logic of knowing that when your emotional thinking soars. The former scenario occurs when you do not know that you are ensnared by a narcissist and therefore you are led into thinking this person will operate the same as you. The latter is when you know you are dealing with a narcissist and you know about future faking (or you do not know you are dealing with a narcissist but you have noted (logically and based on evidence) that this person keeps promising things and does not deliver) BUT notwithstanding this fix of logic, you fail to take heed of it because of soaring emotional thinking outweighing it. An example might be ‘This is the third time he has promised to take me to that new restaurant, but he blew me out the last two times. He was clearly sorry to have done so, I could tell, so I don’t think he will do it a third time.’
- The corruption of your Love Devotee trait would involve some grand romantic gesture and again your emotional thinking overrides logic. An example would be ‘I will take you to the Maldives next month’ You know he has no money and no job so how can he afford it, thus it is questionable that he could ever deliver on this but you fail to pay attention to this Future Faking by either
a. Thinking it is a lovely, romantic gesture and ignoring completely his lack of apparent resources to achieve this;
b. Thinking it is a lovely, romantic gesture, you are not sure how he will pay for it but he must mean it so he must have something up his sleeve to achieve this (savings, he has borrowed the money, he has a magic wand) ; or
c. You know he cannot deliver but you think the intent is sweet anyway and you do not mind that he cannot deliver. Indeed, you will end up paying instead or not go and you do not mind.
Future Faking is nothing to do with the narcissist changing his or her mind. It is nothing to do with you making a mistake, annoying the narcissist or messing things up so the promised event is not delivered (although of course a combination of our Blameshifting and your emotional thinking corrupting your empathic trait of Guilt) will make you think that you have derailed the opportunity to travel to the land of milk and honey.
When the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist issues a promise or statement of intent with regard to some future event, whether it is ‘I will mow the lawn’ through to ‘I am taking you on a 90 day world cruise’ or from ‘I promise I will see you next Friday night’ through to ‘I am marrying you some day’. There is a very high risk that this is Future Faking. Occasionally there will be delivery (this is more likely in the seduction phase) but usually there is not.
The Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist means it when it is stated (thus when you suggest they are not going to deliver they will be mortally offended by this Challenge Fuel issued by you) and lash out in order to assert control. The original Future Faking statement is instinctively issued (and believed by the narcissist) in order to assert control you and to gain fuel. Thus
Narcissist : ‘I will call you tomorrow and we can arrange to go for dinner on Saturday night.’ (Future event, spoken statement (low energy) for the purpose of controlling the victim).
Shelf Intimate Partner Secondary Source Victim : ‘That would be great, I am really looking forward to seeing you again.’ (Control maintained in the instant, positive fuel gained)
Following day
Narcissist calls and converses and makes arrangement for Saturday night with victim. Control again maintained in the instant, victim’s pleased and enthusiastic responses provides positive fuel.
Saturday comes. The narcissist has a Hoover Trigger from a different Shelf IPSS and the Hoover Execution Criteria are met for him to hoover that appliance by going out for dinner with that person. This is because the narcissist had an instinctive need for control over that person in THAT MOMENT and there was no need for control over the First Shelf IPSS because that person was under control. The narcissist does not attend dinner with the First Shelf IPSS and does not even message to cancel because the narcissism does not deem it necessary. There is no emotional empathy therefore the narcissist does not instinctively feel behaving this way is ‘bad’ and should not be done. The narcissist may not have any cognitive empathy and no façade management, therefore there is no need to send a message cancelling. The narcissist is unaware that such a step would be seen as the polite thing to do. A narcissist who has cognitive empathy MIGHT send such a message cancelling the dinner IF the instinctive need for control deemed this an appropriate step, otherwise because of the sense of entitlement (the narcissist does whatever he or she wants, when he or she wants and with whoever he or she wants) and the innate lack of accountability ( I am not accountable to anybody for what I do) then the narcissist fails to turn up to the dinner date with the First Shelf and goes off with the Second Shelf because in THAT MOMENT this was the best outcome for the narcissist.
The fact that the First Shelf Victim may become angry with the narcissist is not at the forefront of the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist’s mind. The consequences of that anger or upset are down the line and therefore not of importance. What matters is NOW, not yesterday, nor tomorrow, but NOW. The narcissist will deal with the collateral consequence of his failure to turn up as he sees fit and when he sees fit (again sense of entitlement, lack of emotional empathy and lack of accountability). This might be issuing an excuse claiming the First Shelf never confirmed with the narcissist (Blameshifting and the Revision of HIstory), focusing on something else (Deflection) or ignoring the First Shelf (Silent Treatment) . These are further manipulations. The anger of the stood up First Shelf Victim manifests as Challenge Fuel and the response of the narcissist (whether active or not) is a manipulation instinctively occasioned for the purposes of asserting control again by quelling the challenge (and gaining fuel to boot).
The narcissist does not change his mind. Consciously (when Lesser or Mid Range) he meant to deliver BUT unconsciously his narcissism meant he is highly unlikely to because it is not about the achieving of the future event (which is what victims mistakenly focus on) it is all about achieving control NOW and this is used by referring to a future event to achieve that, hence future faking. The Greater will either issue the promise and deliver (having greater resource ands ability to do so) or issue the promise knowing there will be no delivery (calculated future faking) because the Greater deems this the best allocation of resources in order to achieve control and fuel.
For the majority of you, you will have encountered this from a Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist and it is instinctive, frequent and all about controlling you NOW by promising something later.
156 thoughts on “What is Future Faking?”
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HG
I just had a chance to read this article and the translation is superb.
I see aspects of this in the situation you recently helped me with. I had not been aware that this person was a narcissist, and further, I had not been aware of the ‘control’ part. Thank you as always!
You are welcome.
HG, You Understood The Assignment! Thanks for Sharing.
“Future Faking is nothing to do with the narcissist changing his or her mind. It is nothing to do with you making a mistake, annoying the narcissist or messing things up so the promised event is not delivered (although of course a combination of our Blameshifting and your emotional thinking corrupting your empathic trait of Guilt) will make you think that you have derailed the opportunity to travel to the land of milk and honey.”
I used to think the narcissist changed his mind, it was my fault and I was to blame for it.
First the MRN promises to do something for me in the future and I believe him. But *before* that time arrives, he wants me to do one or more things for him which are unrealistic, not viable or just too much for me. I decline and also explain why I cannot do it to avoid hurting his feelings. The MRN says nothing or he says it is ok. But when the date to deliver arrives, the MRN does not do it.
I used to think the MRN did intend to keep his promise but he punished me because I did not do what he wanted from me during the time between the date he made the promise and the date to deliver.
Besides, there was an article written by a psychologist. She said it was right to behave like the narcissist did in the example above. (Just to clarify, it was not about Loan Sharking.) This psychologist had reinforced the idea that I deserved to be punished – until I read this one.
Your articles are life-saving to me. They also take a huge weight of guilt and shame off my shoulders.
You are welcome EB.
So fucking true hg
Fucking A, Eyes Peeled!
This article is so perfect and accurate. There was indeed lots of future faking in the beginning. Romantic vacations, purchases of vacation homes near me. It was plausible because he has the means and ability, but the fact that it was such a whirlwind made me wary. In retrospect, the first few years, were like living in a fantasy. So much charm, elegance and class.
It makes sense now that it was to gain fuel in the present. There is a much less future faking now. Not sure if he thinks I’m not as gullible now or he is employing other manipulation tactics.
Thank you, dear HG.
You are welcome, Nina.
Oh yes. The future fake.
It was a future fake that put big ex and I to bed, once and for all. It doesn’t matter what it was, it was significant to our dynamic. He dangled it, oh maybe even four or five times before I snapped.
Looking back; we never recovered. He had broken, for all time the dynamic between us. Eighteen years. Gone for the sake of a couple of hundred pounds. A woman who had supported him endlessly through his MSc and EngD. Borne him two children. that he frankly, had very little to do with unless it suited him.
Bit of a rant now but why is it that on a micro level, no one ever believes the survivours but on a macro level we can’t all wait to jump on band wagons like #metoo. Why? I have had this personally demonstrated to me by a very good friend of some 20 years who when I actually started talking about my rape/s said, ‘Well, why didn’t you say so at the time?’
This is a woman who is not dumb. She has a undergrad degree. (In a flipping easy subject though mind!). Her mind cannot comprehend anything other their her own (limited) world view. THIS is the essence of Narcissism. (Unaware). This particular branch of the N is especially prevalent in females. Males are far better at ‘the gift of the gab’ ohh or….the ‘future fake.’
Not so the female. When her fallibilities are outwardly confronted she reacts in one of a few ways. Like a coward, she never confronts another female narc who is also abusing her. She knows what she needs to say to me but she won’t. She was too busy crying about the impact my behaviour has had on her facade rather than seeking to understand what caused my behaviour in the first place.
This is very VERY typical of the unaware and it shines them out for what they are, if you can see it. The Middles are especially bright with this strand. It’s far easier for example for a middle to gain empathy than a lesser. And don’t let me start about the fuckers that cry on demand!!
Because as like HG says in one of his books (K help please?!), most people are cowards. There are reasons for this. What HG has demonstrated (and forgive me HG for this slur) but has not always explicitly said is the way people actually think has the most importance of it. Ergo, single track, double track, triple track, quadruple track (possibly)?
If you can get into the way people think then frankly, jobs a good ‘un. Do we not agree?
Then it matters not if you have say, a Greater – Aware Super-Empath pairing, the Greater always has the upper hand. I would argue that via the SN, SE’s can ‘run’ the Greater ‘Lite’ program; we cannot stay in that domain for too long. It burns us too much. Under certain circumstances we can. It’s moderation maybe. I recognise, we can just match your prowess (on a rainy day with Jupiter in the 7th house) but again, it’s unnatural for us. We want to default. This is when we retreat. Energy has to be built up again. Charged like a capacitor.
I beginning to see why people get obsessed with Begonias frankly.
Hi Renard,
I admire your courage to speak about it in real life. That “very good friend of some 20 years” is not your friend, IMO. There are many reasons why we decide not to speak sooner about traumatic events and your ‘friend’ should know that you have yours. Her comment was out of place, inconsiderate and humiliating.
I have also tried to understand why we are not believed when we speak about a traumatic event. Why some people become so upset and angry when survivors speak about what happened to them? Why does it have such a negative impact on them if they ‘allegedly’ never experienced it? What makes them become so enraged to lash out at a survivor who is just disclosing?
IMO, people who experienced a traumatic event *and* are still in denial will find survivors’ stories a trigger. They have to unconsciously stop this threat at any cost by attacking the survivor or saying the victim is lying or exaggerating.
Most of those women who attack a survivor of sexual abuse may not remember at a conscious level that they have been sexually abused too. Others may be aware that something happened to them but do not want to even think about it and will use minimization like ‘It wasn’t that bad after all’ as a defence mechanism. They feel threatened when they listen to other survivors speak about it.
I think they attack the survivor who decided to disclose because those traumatic events remind them of their own weaknessess and vulnerabilities, their shame, guilt, hopelessness and helplessness.
Wow EB. Fucking Wow! You are spot on there! The ‘friend’ was abused. Very much so. Her surgeon father was fucking every piece of nurse’s skirt he could get a handle on. Mum no better, she used to beat my ‘friend’ with a hairbrush around the ear so hard the brush snapped and she had to be taken to the Drs with a perforated ear drum. Mum had affairs too. The friend was always very matter of fact. Had a reasonable understanding of empathy but it or we diverged.
Very much get up, sort yourself out, move on. Nah! It don’t work like that.
However, compartmentalisation is strong and especially with the fucking middles. How on earth could they cope, otherwise?
Thank You. Your words have brought much comfort today. I’ve seen things on a new light. X
Glad to know it was helpful, Renard.
E. B.
Control. They instinctively invalidate or attack the survivors truth in order to provoke a negative reaction and assert superiority and control.
The females in my family don’t believe the victims in the church abuse sex scandal. They think the victims are lying or were asking for it. Apparently, children want to be raped by priests.
Hello K,
The females in your family remind me of my Matrinarc.
I understand your point of view when speaking about narcissists only. However, not everyone who got upset, angry or enraged when told about a traumatic event was a narcissist looking for fuel and wanting to assert their superiority. Empaths and normals did those things too. That happened to me before and more than once.
As for control, I think that blameshifting, minimizing the events, not wanting to listen, lashing out at the victim and similar behaviours to avoid memories of past abuse and the uncomfortable feelings that come with it (feeling vulnerable, weak, helpless) could be seen as an act of control, as you said.
E. B.
Human behaviour can be quite baffling and I cannot fathom why those empaths or normals behaved like that, it makes me think of The Coterie. Most of the people that I know had empathy for the victims of the Catholic Church sex abuse scandal except for my narcissists.
Hello K,
Because they do not want to see their own truth. It is too painful and distressing for them. They are in denial which is a defence mechanism that all of us have. (They do not belong to the Coterie and it has happened to me here too.)
For instance, when ACONs go NC with their family of origin, some people get angry and will defend the narc parents even though they have never met them. Why? What makes them become so upset or enraged? They have never lived with those narcissists. They do not know the abusers at all.
I think they (unconsciously) know that something is wrong with their own family of origin but they do not want to admit to it.
If they really came from a healthy family as they say/believe, they would already know that not all families are functional and caring. They would understand that the survivor they are talking to had a different upbringing and has the right to go NC to protect himself/herself from further abuse. Also, if they came from a healthy family, they would not have chosen an emotionally unavailable romantic partner or a manipulative narcissist as a friend.
I understand that people who are in denial feel uncomfortable when they learn about what other people have been through *but* this is not an excuse to become hostile and tell a survivor that it could not have happened like that. They were not there when it happened. They imply the individual is exaggerating or lying.
From reading your comments, I guess you were believed when you spoke about your situation and I am glad you were heard, K.
Hi E. B.,
I don’t talk about my childhood much but, when people have defended narc parent(s), I set them straight real fucking fast and let them know, in no uncertain terms, what I think of them and, usually, it involves the c-word.
When you invalidate an individual’s experience, it’s almost as traumatic, if not worse, than the original event itself.
When did it happen here?
Hi K,
I know you would have never behaved like them. It was about something else – not my childhood and I was beginning to disclose (luckily it was just a small part). I hope you don’t mind that I prefer not to write about it here. Most people cannot imagine how far some malignant narcissists will go. Some people do not care until it happens to them.
E. B.
I understand and you are correct, some people don’t care until they are victimized and then all of a sudden they want your support. Some people are crappy.
Renarde
The book eludes me, however, if I remember it, I will post it for you.
Thanks sweetie
My pleasure Renarde!
Something has eluded, K!
My misplaced comma reduces the impact of my comment.
nunya biz
Ha ha ha….I have a vague recollection of reading that statement in one of the books but I can’t remember which one.
HG have you used calculated future faking often, or is this something an ultra has very little use for?
Occasionally but I prefer other types of manipulation. I find the delivery (because I can) more effective – of both that which was stated and my manipulations. By delivering that person is then indebted to me and never able to repay that debt.
Ahh, I see. It is similar to what my Mother always said, you can catch more flies with honey then you can vinegar. You actually gain more by delivering then not, simply because you can see the benefit to you of doing so, where a lesser or mid range are not capable of doing? Thank you HG.
“By delivering that person is then indebted to me and never able to repay that debt.”
Repay
This is that odd logic, competing with a woman. I’ve been through it a lot (greaters, upper midrangers).
She has statistically much less muscle strength, less money, fewer cool hip friends.
How is she ever gonna repay?
Why is the debt never repaid, HG? Is that a narc thing? (Keeping score). I do things for people all the time and deliver on my promises. I expect nothing in return. In fact, I’m happy to do it most of the time and think nothing more of it.
Is the debt to be repaid in gratitude? In favors? If you do something that hurts that person, is part of the debt forgiven because of it? This has really got me curious. Interesting how the alternate worldview affects every facet of human interaction.
Because I say it is not, because I will always move the goalposts.
It cannot be repaid so it is irrelevant to ask what might repay it, MB.
Thank you for a most honest answer, Sir.
You are welcome MB.
I used to always repay my debts, I’d feel to guilty and would never accept gifts or payment of meals for fear of owing something.
I still freely give to non Ns.
If it’s an N, I accept everything that comes my way! And never feel debted.
I wonder how that makes them feel?
That they misjudged me perhaps?
Clearly I’m eternally indebted to you HG. That’s different x
Yes it is.
Whew! That’s a relief. I was beginning to get worried! Ha Ha
Grrr!!! I remember someone telling me… “misti, you cant hit a moving target” and that is what nick always did. But it wasnt always with future faking.. it was the ways he would set up things. Like I couldnt call during certain times “because he might be sleeping” (logical yes) but if he wasnt sleeping of course I wouldnt know and he wouldnt tell me so I could contact him. But anyways I would ask for an area of time that i COULD contact him. I would use it if needed. When i did use it, it wasnt always upsetting to him but how he would word it would make me feel bad. I remember saying “but i didnt do it wrong! I did it right. You said i could!” And he would tell me I did do it right but also be able to tell me in a very clever way (it was fascinating now that I look back) that I shouldn’t do it.
Great question FM1T
Thank you MB, Sometimes I can still come up with one or two to throw at him. 😉🙃
No matter how fake you know it is in your head, your heart is somehow still hurt by the letdown. There’s a small part of you that wants to believe it’s real.
Of course. But it does get easier.
“I am going to take you for a nice dinner.” Oh lord, I’m starving!
Excellent article, HG. I was future faked a lot, by multiple narcs. I recall my very 1st high school bf used to just tell me what I wanted to hear so he could be left alone and then he would fail to deliver.
I could see a Lesser saying, ‘I just tell her what she wants to hear so she gets off my nuts.’
Thus shifting the blame to the victim as a ‘nag’.
Thank you Bibi.
“This coffee meet up was a long time since our last coffee together, next time we won’t leave it so long’. Last words, all silent now. Future-faking at every turn.
I bumped into him at work. He made a point of stopping and asking me how I was. I expected a hoover but didn’t get one. I think he has finally given up trying to get me.
I dare say that the entire relatioNshit was one humongous future fake. More failed deliveries than the postal service on strike.
Fabulous piece HG.
Thank you Jess.
You just opened my eye on this manipulation tool… So true!!! You nailed it! Thanks HG!!
Pleasure.
This is a juicy piece of writing!
*Lightbulb*
HG, would UMRs not use this as much? Or is it possible that future faking doesn’t work on certain types of people? I don’t remember being future faked.
1. It is used often. You may not have realised and/or an UMR may have delivered some of the time, thus obscuring the impact.
2. It will always work – how long and how extensively for, varies.
Thank you, HG!
I am glad you could provide a rationale on possibly why I don’t remember. I am starting to worry that I am forgetting negative memories; or that I didn’t care enough back then to even pay attention to when things weren’t delivered.
I was future faked the fuck out of. As LD SIPSS that’s really all the entire thing was. One big ol’ fantasy future fake-a-thon! But oh how the fuel did flow…
I’m sorry you went through that, MB! He is a f-er for doing that to you! A little fortune cookie for his future: “you will never get any more awesome fuel of any kind from MB!”
I hate that I don’t remember getting these as I wonder how much negativity I overlooked then or how much I am forgetting now.
Here’s to your future and no more faking – only glitter and goodness! 🍾
Thank you Getting There, I’d be lying if I said I didn’t miss it. I enjoy giving fuel and getting the first class trip to Fantasyville. I knew it wasn’t real but it sure was fun to pretend! Being ignored when my fuel wasn’t wanted was still too much rejection for my heart to take. Now I may never get to go again. I have to remind myself everyday why the drug wasn’t good for me.
That is an interesting thought, MB. If he hadn’t ignored you then, would you have reached a point where you would have said “no more” on other behavior? Do you know why you enjoyed the fantasy so much?
I am not sure if I shared this already on here and apologize for repeating if I did. I once talked with some people who used to smoke. One was able to cut cold turkey; another spent a long time slowly removing the habit (others were in between). What they had in common: they still had cravings for a cigarette on and off, years later, but they are able to deal with those cravings different now. I hope you are patient with yourself during the time of cravings. It’s great that you are still keeping your distance from him!
Getting There, if he’d been attentive, he’d still have me, pumping out the positive fuel. The push/pull wasn’t something I was good at dealing with. Ignoring = rejection. Rejection for me is the same as physical pain. It broke my heart over and over and I finally realized how sick I had become because of the waiting in between. I had told myself that it was harmless and it didn’t have any effect on me.
I enjoyed playing along with the fantasy. It was real in my mind at that moment, kind of like reading a book with me as the main character. I knew it was just talk, but it was a fun escape from reality. Kind of like going on vacation.
I’m a good target. The one that holds on to possibility, no matter how unlikely. I’m the “fairy tales do come true” girl. What I miss is the excitement of “possibility”. Not him per se. It makes me sad to think I’ll never feel that again. Sort of like when you find out Santa isn’t real. You miss the magic, not Santa.
Yes, I’m keeping my distance. He’s a much better fantasy than he’d ever be in reality. And I finally accepted the fact that both the fantasy he provided and the reality were on his terms, not mine.
HG has taught me well.
I feel this deeply, MB. I am (was) very much the same in my situation.
Joanne, there are several of us on the blog that found ourselves in this situation. It’s nice to know I’m not the only one. It’s very difficult for people IRL to understand or have any compassion for a person in a situation like this. We “get” each other.
MB: I thought about your statement: “What I miss is the excitement of “possibility”. “ Yes. I agree. I thought about your statement for a while. It is so true!! And, I wonder, why is it that so few men are able to provide any semblance of the grand “possibility,“ any longer, or, to me, or both. Just one look at a guy, and I see absolutely no possibility of what I am looking for. It takes only a few minutes at most. At least the Narcissist was able to simulate the element of `possibility.` That is probably why I was a moth that , thankfully, was not able to get too near the flame, for reasons beyond my control. I wanted it. He did not. He is flush with many supply receptacles, before I ever came on the scene. I was positioned by him as second tier non-intimate material, for his needs, until I could no longer function in my designated role, after about 3 years. I truly dodged a bullet, but it still hurts. What is going on? I truly do not know, but I am not keen on losing my single status knowingly, for dull drudgery. I want normal, but not dull, if that is not too much to ask for. I haven`t posted recently because I have been mourning that I had to drop every friend I had, except one only. I had not realized that everyone I knew was through work and also a friend/acquaintance of the Narc. Amazing, in a bad way. So, for my health, I not only had to drop his 4 malign Lieutenants, but also his coterie, which is composed of many pleasant people, that I like. I am sad about ghosting the coterie, as well. I also had to change my gym. I had to, to avoid some of the above-mentioned people. I went to a new location last week, and I was sad that I did not know a single soul, in there. I actually have to start my life all over again. I hope I have learned my lesson by going where fools dare to go willingly, so to speak. To Narcville. I had not realized until this month, how much inconvenient change I have to make to disengage. Lessons learned. This week I am feeling that being Single is good, for me. Especially in this modern narcissistic climate, that is going full blast in NYC. I want some friends again, in due time, as well. But, I know it is not wise to rush into anything. I am now like a newborn practically, strangely and suddenly, but with a lot of knowledge of people this time around, that a newborn does not have. And, despite this odd experience in Narcville, I am sort of embracing being single of late. Because, I can.
PrincessSuperEmpath, you definitely have many friends here! Ones that know how it feels.
I am married and have been for many, many years. He is good to me. We have a nice life, jobs, kids, the whole dream. But something is missing. There’s no magic, no excitement. There’s a reason for that. He’s not a narc! And thank God he isn’t! The magic, the mystery, the intrigue, none of that is normal. Sure, you may feel it in the beginning of a relationship, but it fades and is replaced with something more substantial and enduring. They become your life partner, your family. There is a comfort that I am 100% certain is not possible with a narc and it CAN feel quite dull at times.
That’s why I always called them my narc sprinkles. I liked having my cake and eating it too. I enjoy the comfort of a stable relationship, but the magic provided by the narc was quite yummy and intoxicating. Ultimately, the price of narc sprinkles is high and they are unhealthy anyway. Junk food will make you sick.
MB,
Your post below (16:22) made me teary!
Why?
Because it’s not right that Prince Charming doesn’t come through with the slipper… no matter how strong & proud, we’re all little girls somewhere, tucked inside, and we love the heartwarming stuff (the magic)… no, we don’t *need* that stuff, but our heart dreams are still lovely, like twirling in our prettiest dress when we were little (actually, I still twirl in mine, lol)
You see it very clearly, which is good. I’m just sorry you *have* to see it so clearly.
Kisses (no need to kiss a frog!),
~Caroline (is-fine/on-time/can rhyme)
Awww Caroline, don’t get teary on by behalf. I definitely still have heart dreams and twirl in my dresses too.
The hardest reality for me to accept when I found HGs work was letting go of the dream. The punch in the gut that the magic was all smoke and mirrors. I tried to keep the fantasy alive but alas I had to admit defeat. There is no magic just like there is no Santa.
Kisses to you too Caroline-Is-Fine-As-Frog-Hair
Oh my gosh — that’s my new handle, MB…
“Caroline-is-fine-as-frog-hair”!
On second though, it’s too long…
😉
PrincessSE – same here. Since I left ex-n in November I have been sorting through my friends – one left. One new promising contact, definitely not narc. Work is narc infested (university). Not nice. But living in the truth beats clinging to hope to no avail…
I understand what you are saying, MB. Sometimes they make a great distraction. Hopefully your magnet has dulled since you would be a good catch for another narcissist.
Princessempath, I go back and forth on whether I should try dating or not. I don’t need exciting but I don’t need dull either. I am attracted to narcissists (not all kinds either). Even online, it was the charming red flag profiles and discussions that got me excited. I’m sorry you had to cut so much of your life out to be healthy and happy! You are very strong!
MB: Regarding your statement: [ `I liked having my cake and eating it too. I enjoy the comfort of a stable relationship, but the magic provided by the narc was quite yummy and intoxicating. Ultimately, the price of narc sprinkles is high and they are unhealthy anyway. Junk food will make you sick.`] MB, it always seem so harmless in the beginning. The Somatic Narcissist has of late ensnared my best friend at work, during my long on-going absence, and it is largely my fault. She has a daughter and is married/recently engaged to her longtime partner. The Narcissist has sprung the trap, and she is over the moon with happiness enjoying his gorgeous sulky attention. The Somatic Narcissist ignored her at work, especially because she is quite overweight and therefore absolutely invisible to him, but I kept pointing out to him how great and professional she was, and with such good character. I like her very much. He bit, and she is now his new Non Intimate Partner Secondary Source, NIPSS, since I have been away. My bad. I am praying she only gets the Golden Period, that HG Tudor says is usually the life of the loyal NIPSS at work. I hope she does not delight too much in the delicious sweet sprinkles and crosses some line emotionally, that hurts her family, her fiance and daughter. That is all I ask. That she forever gets the Golden Period and never crosses the line in her heart. It is possible for a NIPSS colleague in the workplace. I have nothing against her being entangled with the Narcissist at work and I understand how wonderful it feels to bathe in the glow of his approval. What a feeling. I do not begrudge her that wonderful feeling, if only she can restrain herself from crossing the line, and not fall for him, like I finally did. But, I am single, and therefore, maybe, more vulnerable to the promise or fantasy of his attractiveness and provocative sensuality charm. It was too much of a strain for me, over a 3 year period. Too much longing for something I could not have. I fell ill. Lovesick, they call it. It can literally kill. She may be more fulfilled because she has her family. Balance. Some extra harmless excitement in her regular life. It is painful to cut her off. Also, I wanted to start a business with her. Now all of that is dead. I just told her and everyone that I am away because I am very sick. I am. But, not like how they think. Costly sprinkles all around. Junk food can absolutely kill. One never knows when they have just eaten one sprinkle too many. I hope my friend stays in check with herself. Right now she is having her cake and eating it too. Thanks to me. Guilty as charged. Out of ignorance. I just wanted a big happy family. But, I had to exit for the sake of my health, because my feelings crossed the line. Too many consumed emotional sprinkles clogged my logic. I left because I fell in love with the Narcissist. So, be careful of those sprinkles, MB. And Please Remember, that Narcissists have a studied and extra gift of charm. Their secret weapon to survive. Dangerous Charm. So many people say on here, over and over and over, how the Narcissist was not their type, or they do not know how they crossed the line, or, how they were surprised at how quickly everything moved, and how the Narcissist stayed in their thoughts, and they felt they behaved out of character with the Narcissist, and on, and on, and on. Narcissists are practiced seducers and cunning. Charm is their most potent weapon, their bread and butter and practice makes perfect. They do Evolve. My guard was down. I never really saw how he did it to make me fall for him. Sort of like hypnosis. All that for a NIPSS. And, I held my position down well, until I fell ill because of it. I am sure it was an easy formula, at that, for him. And he had the advantage of proximity at work. No love-bombing to get my guard up. Slow and steady it went. Now I am the odd person out. I know he wants to see me, and put me back in my position and tier in the fuel matrix hierarchy, but I am not a toy, I see now. To myself, at least. Because, I TRIED to be the good toy, I really did, but I became a lifeless doll, instead. Destiny did not approve of my designation as a second tier non-intimate doll toy: APPLICATION DENIED.
PSE, I started out as NISS too. But I was under his spell from the first moment I saw him. I knew I had to have him. He claims he didn’t know *insert eye roll*. He just wasn’t interested until his IPPS started devaluation and he kept me hanging on for later. (I know this now.) Before finding HGs work, I WAS emotionally across the line. I now know that I dodged a bullet and I thank God everyday for not answering my prayers.
I miss the exciting & magical sprinkles, but tis better to have tasted them and lost them than to never have tasted them at all! (Isn’t that how the saying goes?)
Getting There: Even the word, Dating, sounds sorrowful. I think it depends in the town where you live, and what your hobbies and interests are, and whom your friends and family and acquaintances know. I have never used a dating site on the internet, and the stories I hear on here make my hair catch on fire. If I ever decide to go that route, I would use a paid dating site, with matchmakers to screen everyone and pay as much as I could afford for such a service that cares about their reputation. Cut out some of the riffraffing and shenanigans. Other than that, I just think it would be best just to meet people naturally from your acquaintances, etc. and around the things you enjoy in life. But, after all we know, I have no fear of being bamboozled by this sort of thing again. I played with fire, and going to the burn unit once is enough for me. And enough for me to remember to always be resisting, as HG teaches. Also, the reasonable and practical type of normal guy that is still chivalrous and very smart and not dull and can be loving, well at least loving to me, is asking for a lot these days, so I definitely will not be holding my breath in desperation. I am okay not having a boyfriend at this time. I have no desire to rush or force something, or settle for something. I wish success for those that are in relationships as well. Both scenarios can have success. I feel very successfully single, even though I do feel lonely sometimes, of course, but largely, not most of the time.
GT & PSE, Hopefully you gals can hold out for HGs “narc-free guaranteed” dating site. He shall personally vet each candidate for their fitness to interact with his subscribers. It will be expensive, but you get what you pay for. That’s on the to do list, right HG? Sounds like fun!
Hello, PSE.
“I would rather be happy and single than unhappy with someone.” It sounds like you fit in that saying which is great if so!
It’s also good that you are heeding what you hear here about online dating.
For me, a hard part to figure out after my relationships with the narcissists: being ready for another relationship and knowing when I am ready. It’s good that you are not pushing yourself into anything!
Online dating seemed to have been the only option for me. The more I was on the more HG’s warnings played into my head and I left the recent one in the past few weeks and don’t plan on ever going active again. I will say that some of the stories are entertaining to share so there is a positive from that experience. I have heard from friends that while I may be looking I am keeping myself closed subconsciously. I do things like “why did he ask about this?” to “why didn’t he ask about this (same thing as other guy asked about and put me off)?”
You are good to yourself in ensuring you never end up burnt again! If it were just me to consider, I would probably still be dancing in the midst. I now have a son and with every interaction with a potential man, I consider how the man would be in my son’s life. It’s like that part in “Look Who’s Talking” where she is on those dates. I have a friend who jokingly told me that God is not available for me to date after listening to me.
I am glad that you said you are “successfully single!” What a great way to view it!
Hello, MB.
An HG dating site? That could be interesting. I wonder if it would be a challenge to him if one were to say “no” to his choice. LOL
Getting There, Re: dating site. I’m just kidding (sort of) We’ve talked about it from time to time on the blog. HG wouldn’t be a matchmaker! Lord no! He would just guarantee that the subscribers to his site were certified non-narcs. Of course that doesn’t keep them from being assholes. Just hopefully not abusers. With all the plates the man has spinning, I wouldn’t hold my breath. It’s just a fun thing to think about.
Hello, MB.
I knew you were joking. I’m sorry that my response led you to feel that you needed to clarify! I think it is a fun idea for sure! To keep with imagining it: eharmony style would allow to see how he would match different empath schools with other empath schools or normal. Plus time and energy will be saved from preventing the subconscious “where is the narcissist” search. 😃
Future trips, future gifts, future anything. Never I bought you this just because… It was always a ‘wait untl you see what i’ve got you for your birthday/ Christmas’ type scenario which of course there was always some mix up which meant it couldn’t be delivered on time and being a bespoke piece and all,, blah blah. My 50th.. I paid for us to go to London for an event for my birthday.. ‘we can pick up your surprise on the way home’ he says. Stuck in traffic for 6 hrs but wecouldn’t possibly spend an extra 30 mins to pick up said present. sooo yeah that never happened either. i renamed these episodes as ‘The carrots’ always dangled in front of your nose in the hope that you put up with their BS for just a little while longer…
HG, this is instantly one of my favorite articles. The example you give of the narcissist interacting with 2 IPSS’s is a perfect example of why I am such a believer in your work. I had this exact situation happen where I was the first shelf IPSS. Before you, no one could explain WHY it played out that way. Nor could anyone understand WHY it mattered to me to find out. You’ve earned your following not by manipulating us, but by showing us repeatedly that you understand the dynamic, you have the answers, and you offer us the knowledge to free ourselves from the chains we never realized we were carrying.
I’m still in the heart v. head battle over my last narcissist, but without your knowledge and insight, I would have certainly been doomed to an endless cycle of drowning in the emotional battle/further ensnarement by different narcissists. You have my profound gratitude which I hope you will accept as a small dollop of fuel.
I am pleased it has proven so useful to you Better Call HG. Naturally my expertise is evident once again and is THE reason people read here.
Love this comment BCHG!
HG, excellent stuff (yet again). Extremely informative. Amazing insight.
Thank you x
You are welcome.
Good one! Really emphasizes the reasoning that the NOW is all that matters. Saying these things NOW whether there is actual intent on follow through will allow him to gain control, obtain fuel, and that is all that matters. Many months ago this would not have made sense for me. It is unthinkable for me to say to a person, “some day when we are married…” etc, unless I really felt that this is the direction we were headed. I am already married so the likelihood of this being possible was very low. Regardless, I was caught in:
#4 – Questionable that he could ever deliver on this but you fail to pay attention to this Future Faking
c – You know he cannot deliver but you think the intent is sweet anyway and you do not mind that he cannot deliver
Dearest HG: I hate future faking. It is still lying. It all piles up in the NOW and in the LATER. Expediency is king in the world of lies. Future faking is all over the place. It is swept under the carpet when politicians do it, especially when they are campaigning for office. It seems to be their right of passage. Earning their stripes. To lay it on as thickly as possible. These politicians then say, when they win their office, that they did not know how cumbersome it would be to push their promises through the system, although most of them have been in the system, one way or another their entire life. Convenient amnesia. I have been aware of future faking since I was a child, and listening to the same speeches and the same promises coming from politicians my entire life. I could recite the future faking political platforms with my eyes closed, since I was a child. The same old promises. So, now narcissistic people are future faking as easily as drinking water. So as the leaders, so as the people. And it is not politically correct in modern times to call someone out as a liar. It is practically not even an insult, even if one does call someone a liar, these days. No life threatening duels are called for. Nor, rarely, other demands for satisfaction But, we all know when we have been lied to, whether or not we decide to fight to address the fakery or not. Now or Later. I know when I have been lied to, even if some excuse or slight of hand or words are presented to me to throw me off track, afterwards. I just let it go. I was never dazzled by the befuddled words or trickery utilized in the lame excuse. Picking my battles in silence. Never fooled by this, especially after the first time. One benefit of the doubt is allowed. Twice is a pattern garnering momentum. A liar. I see it. My quietness over the matter is not ignorance. Just considered tolerance or exasperation or disappointment. Keen disappointment. There is too much of this future faking going on. And, many of the lies and fakery is unnecessary. That makes is so much worse. I rarely ask people questions, these days, to avoid lies. Then they voluntarily tell me lies. No escape. lol. So many lies are piling up in this life, interpersonal and social, that it would be illogical for a lot of something not to go bad all over the place at some point, in the future.
Excellent info. I think I was married to a Lesser (not quite sure, he was always on the brink of physical violence but broke things on purpose to create a controlling environment – he didn’t hit people). This man kept saying “marry me! “ after we knew each other for 2 weeks. When we were eventually married (6 yrs later, 2 kids, marriage followed mostly my initiative), he kept saying it!! Didn’t think of anything new! I quietly translated it to” you’re so lovely I’d marry you again. Any time. ”
ET is crippling!
N-ext (midranger) took photographs with his mobile of high – end flats advertised along the streets we’d walk through together. He did this also 2 weeks into the relationship, saying these might come in useful! I found it scary. I didn’t mention it then, we were only 2 weeks in. About 4 weeks into the relationship: “my best mate x played the piano at my last 2 weddings. Maybe he will play at ours?” Was scared again and almost ended it then. Should have . But thought he is maybe just really quick with his feelings. Let’s see how this plays out.
Needed devaluation first (it included an admission, when confronted, that he never meant to move in with me and that marriage was sort of a CAN thing for him when the time was right, for when we had sorted our (neverending) differences and that he had said it because he knows women like hearing these things and he would marry me if I “insisted” like “they” all do) .
Ah well…. Crippling ET!
LC: Wow. Sorry about you having to drop some friends because of the entanglement. This is crazy stuff. It is amazing how we create our own world, even in big cities. Then we have to destroy it and rebuild it. Will it be better than before? It is difficult to predict. It is quite the surgery when we have to painfully scrape out certain people from ourselves, to keep ourselves alive as a whole that is greater than our parts, and thus sacrifice our friendships. Is the x still at the Uni. and you have to engage with the person? I am glad you still have the one friend. I hope the new one works out. Can the x reach this new promising person. I hope not. Enough is enough.
PSE: partly it was because of shared friends (he made some of my friends his lieutenants, all textbook) . Partly it was also because I was ready to really inspect all my older contacts and drop them if they weren’t healthy. With some I don’t know if they were narcs but I felt uncomfortable all the same. I put a stop to it. Soon after REALLY getting the idea what narcissism is I went for the whole hog. The narc(s) at uni are boss and co-workers, they’re still there. Currently I’m working out if I should leave, do something different, start over again somewhere, or try and find a niche somehow by learning to handle them better than at present. I’m taking my time for the decision. But my life has been one big narc story (no surprise really, groomed by abusive sadistic matrinarc who, at least that, was keen on education, despite my never being good enough of course.) I’m doing a radical narc-inventory and I can also go for radical GOSO on all fronts because I have therapeutic support by a terrific woman who really understands what narcissism (and especially also its counterpart, ET, is about) , so it’s okay. But the job question remains tricky.
LC. That niche idea sounds goods at the job. And Universities are good places to work, I would think. Some job security and not too overly rigid, yes? And, a few more extra days off every year? Narcs are all around. We can not just run off the planet all the time. When in doubt, I do nothing. Sometimes, something else comes along to grab their attention away from you. At least you know you have HG Tudor if a real decision has to be made about the job, before a crisis goes down. You know all the facts in this situation you are in. So I am just speaking in general, of course. Changing jobs without a worked out plan that is economically viable is not so good these days. And your therapists should know that Narcissists are everywhere in various degrees, so running is not always the best way to live ones life. It is good to plan and save money and be sure if that is really necessary. They sit safely while you have to scramble around for years. Especially if you are not being destroyed by the people there. And you do have rights, even if you have to go to human resources and speak up and make a complaint, and HG knows all about that, even if slander to your reputation is involved on a professional level. I am sure you will make the best decision to stay or go, and we do have a wise and strategic elite expert as a fail safe, on this matter, as long as we give him enough time to advise us, before a catastrophe happens. So, please do not worry about it too much. If it becomes too much to evaluate, let HG take the burden and look at it. And take a little break from figuring it all out on your own. LC, I hope this is the last time I start all over, but I have said that so many times before. But, this time I am much smarter about what I did to be in this position, and why it is best for me to remove myself. I lost a lot. But, I really had to move out of the scene. I have just been very stealthy about it. Little by little and I am almost done. I did not want to stir up anyone or wound or injure anyone. And I wanted to stir up things as little as possible. I think I have succeeded as much as possible, and because I also slowly changed my location scheduling to be closer to my apartment which is understandable and not suspicion making, and because I also used illness as my main excuse to stay away also, (because HG says that Narcissists do not engage much with the ill, if they can help it), I am hoping that they think they have deserted me, instead of the reality that I am deserting them. I absolutely do not need to make enemies of any of them, if possible. So, it is not always best to run, especially if one is not in a relationship sort of crisis, like what I stupidly involved myself in. I even had to change my gym. But, it is not good to always be the new person. But, I have to. I hope you do not.
Dear PSE, it sounds huge „I have to, I hope you do not.“ No I don‘t think I have to, I want to, which is hugely different. I feel I have a choice for the first time, now I know more about how I function, how I unwittingly asked to be abused. Have become more self-sufficient, and even though I described it as a radical move to exchange my environment it took several years to get where I am now …to be able to see and want to see the world I played my part in. As for uni, no, job security is crap. The work is wonderful though. I love it but the system is feudal and narc and codependent heaven. Could go on and on about it but that wouldn‘t help. And yes, I‘m giving the narc at work package a try before I do anything stupid. The problem is, I am getting more resiliant, less door matty. Means top narc (probably a cerebral upper midrange, he is a pretty powerful dude and incredibly good at what he does, could also be a greater seeing that everyone describes him as Macchiavellian) feels criticised by my not being a doormat as much as I used to be.
I hope you will find the reason why you keep having to start over and over again! Was this before you came to this site or has it happened since?
LC. I started over a lot in life for basic, normal and non-exciting reasons, and once for ethical reasons (that really hurt because I worked some years in a certain field and a lot of things were done that I did not approve of, although legal, but it was real fun and exciting to work in that field), but I forced myself to quit and think it over, planning to return one day, but I never did. But, I was caught off guard this time around. I was happy where I was. And I had some interesting plans and ideas I wanted to work on. And, I never got involved with my heart and feelings in a work environment until this time. I messed up. Over a Narcissist. I believe he is Somatic somewhat, or Midranger, and I perceive I am learning my lesson. I am still in shock about how much change I have to make, and how much I lost, by having to remove myself from that environment and from some of the people that I really liked that were not his 4 lieutenants (that I despise greatly), but in his overall coterie (l liked them very much: great coterie he has). Matters would have been even worse for me over time, if I had not found Narcsite, and then saw the battlefield clearly from HG Tudor`s tall tower. It was all worse than I thought!!! The battle was larger than I had realized! I understood after I came on here, why I was so oddly extremely exhausted: I discovered that I was also actually fighting an entanglement with 4 envious and jealous and possessive people (his 4 malign Lieutenants) while I was thinking I was dealing largely with the Narcissist. Like in HG Tudor`s writings about `Minions of Darkness.` So, everything was always so odd. In a bad way. And all this was going on for over 3 years at work. It was like swinging at some mysterious pinata. But, I did not realize I was actually swinging at 5 pinatas. What a mess! I was sort of amazed I endured as long as I did under the circumstances, and I Almost felt proud of myself as a soldier, when I finally understood what all I was battling for so long. Almost: I still should not have fallen for the Narcissist. I ghosted them all when I put the puzzle together and have yet to return. I am largely in my fifth month away. I was boiling in anger with my newfound knowledge and I did not trust myself to set my eyes on any of them. I may have Burned Them Up from the flames pouring forth out of my eyes: That is how I felt! HG Tudor says it takes about 6 months of no contact to get a grip on ones logical thinking, after an entanglement, depending on the circumstances. He has proven right once again, in my case. I am so much much much better than when I first came on here not too long ago. My logical thinking has untied itself and has struggled back on board and to the command center of my thoughts: It is roughed up, dehydrated, and bruised, and slightly concussed, but able to function again. I even laugh and enjoy some humor a bit, now. That was out of the question, for a long time, before I came on here.
I have been subjected to future faking countless times. It was one of my parents’ favourite manipulative techniques – although completely instinctive, as you very well explain HG.
It would drive me absolutely crazy. Insane. It was one of the things I hated the most. When I was little it would just break my heart (“I will take you here, there, I will buy you this, that, etc.”) . When I got older it made me want to smash their f&%king faces.
Silver lining: I am now a woman of little faith, with an ‘I’ll believe it when I see it’-type attitude – most of the times at least.
Nailed it!
True and thank you.
I wasn’t sure if that was a rhetorical question but amusing coming from you a little entertaining as well but being stood up left waiting cancelling reneging on all promises frustrating as hell because like an idiot I wait
This information is worth its weight in gold. Is this a new article, HG?
It is, MB.
Speaking of shelf IPSSs…I was thinking about yours in the shower yesterday. (I know you’ve missed my shower musings. Ha ha)
Are they getting crumbs or being ignored wholesale during the GP with SM? Then I thought, “he will just let them go due to the new dynamic.” He doesn’t need them anymore. Then I thought, no he won’t, “he has too much invested (in some of them at least.)”Then, there was, “ahhhhha – they are being engaged with, but as NISSs”.
Surely that full shelf is getting quite restless by now. Care to share what the shelf looks like under the new dynamic, HG? Shall I just continue to wonder?
They are on the shelf.
Love the Santa analogy MB.
Great question.
Brilliant article HG! of course!
I’ve read some of your previous comments re the ‘control now’ being of utmost importance to lessers and mids, and this vital piece of info HG, has allowed me to win,win,win in so very many situations which I never otherwise could have. Previously, as you describe, I would have been honest, stuck to whatever I had committed to do, even if it was at my own expense? Not any more!
It also helps hugely in determining those who are upper-mid/greater. I do except greaters are very rare, but the type of work I am involved with means I do come across them, more so than in any other field of work.
Thank you and you are welcome. I know you come across more Greaters than many owing to your line of work.
Alexis, I agree! But your comment reminds me of something I have been paranoid about for the longest time. How do you spot Greaters in the workplace?
I’ve met someone (owner of a company and founder of a new charity I’m interested in) who might be, but I don’t have enough clues to go by, based solely on business related encounters. Also – if he is a Greater – well, they are so polished in general, how the hell would I know?
A friend of mine is a Lesser Greater but I only figured that out because I know her really well, she is unconcerned with her facade management and relies on her power and charisma to keep people attracted to her.
Lesser Greaters are easier to spot, Middle and Upper Greaters? I have no clue.
Lower Greater.
right, thank you
No problem.
I feel pretty low low less!
Haha Claire, I feel kind of medium rare right now. But it is pretty hot outside.
It’s hot here as well. I just mean low less like an idiot—I have never been so befuddled by a group of horrible people like this.
I get that Claire but use the knowledge you find here to go out with open eyes. It really strengthens confidence to spot a narc in the wild and know how to deal with them. Also makes you realize that the vast majority is utterly predictable and constantly chasing it’s own tail. Don’t be afraid, be awake! Haha wow that was corny as hell. I want that on a T-Shirt.
Hey Desiree, It is not easy to spot them that is for sure and I do find it much easier with males than females. I suspect because they see me as a prospective IPSS therefore (stupidly) I engage in some of the game play (I literally can’t fookin help myself).
I do not allow myself to become an IPSS though so then have to manage the situation carefully. Perhaps there are just more male greaters? I believe HG did comment that there are a higher number of female mids though.
There is a female I have had to engage with increasingly over the past 18 months and at first I was unsure whether she was an SE or a greater. I’m now certain she is a greater.
Their skill at manipulation is incredible and I would never have spotted it if it wasn’t for HG.
For me personally, I learned as much as I could from lessers, then progressed to mids before engaging with the greaters in any form of game play. But I wouldn’t recommend this at all to anyone. The greaters are as dangerous as HG warns us! I’ve learned a few tough lessons along the way! So please don’t try this at home.
Unfortunately I can’t give away too much in terms of things to look out for as I only have very specific examples to offer.
But I would definitely recommend re-reading all of the fuel matrix parts 1-3 as well as another article (I forget the title) but something about flushing out the N.
The one thing I really notice is the way when you ignite the fury of the greater, it lasts for a splt second (depending on your position in the fuel matrix) before they regain their control. there is literally an almost side to side shift in their eyes, nothing more and nothing less. then they continue with their fake smile.
The thing is, my sister who I actually suspect to be an UMR is also very controlled, I see that flicker in her eyes too, she is calculating and used to outsmart me. She never gets angry so has her fury well under control. But I have also learned that whilst there is some degree of calculation, she is also very much a one trick pony. She has honed her skills and they fool pretty much everyone because of her charm. But for me now, her patterns of behavior are so obvious, I can almost, almost work out what she is planning before she has even done it.
I digressed a bit. But the very fact that they are ‘polished’ is a bit of a red flag in itself. It is harder when you only engage through work. But there are signs. It’s taken me over four years to reach this level of understanding. It sounds like you’re getting there too! and even now, each time I encounter someone new who I cannot categorise promptly, I revisit those articles again.
Alexis, that first part might me laugh a little, I totally understand and it can be hard to resist! Especially when you’re not sure if they’re narcs or not and normal people can be charming too can’t they?? ha ha
But I dont play with fire either and your notion of that flicker in the eyes just rung a thousand bells.
I remember seeing that and it gave me a real bad gut feeling. But it was gone as soon as it came and since I didn’t know him well and didn’t work for him someone else probably had to suffer for the offense I caused, I never saw the end of it.
My mother is an Upper Mid Ranger and she is similar to how you describe your sister, though I also find her predictable and easy to handle now, thanks to HGs work and consulting with him.
My Lower Greater friend is much more sophisticated and even after knowing what she is, I would never dare cross her or try and withdraw from her of my own accord, she can be beyond vicious. Good thing she lives in another town now and I rarely see her.
She made me wonder if I know Greaters other than her, because some of the circles I move in would be attractive, but I just couldn’t point to anyone with certainty.
The way they seem to be able to do ten things at once and are absolutely perfect at everything might be an indicative factor. It’s as if the only thing that’s wrong with them is that absolutely nothing’s wrong with them, they’re the perfect creation.
I feel uncomfortable thinking about that, I will start watching my back more from now on.
Thanks for the recommended articles! I can’t find the one about flushing out the narcissist right now but I’m sure I will
Found the article, here it is for anyone else reading and interested:
https://narcsite.com/2017/12/21/exposed-5-further-tips-to-flush-out-the-narcissist-2/
The part about crying is acutally what made me realize my friend must be a Greater. I’ve known her since we where teenagers and have never seen her cry.
Not. Even. Once.
it creeped me out and tied in with how she has zero victim mentality, another interesting characteristic for a teenage girl to have. Zero Self Pity.
I used to think she was just the strongest and coolest person I ever met and that’s why. Now I know better.
The way they seem to be able to do ten things at once and are absolutely perfect at everything might be an indicative factor.
Oh yes!
https://narcsite.com/2017/12/21/exposed-5-further-tips-to-flush-out-the-narcissist-2/
here’s one of them
What general area of work are you in? Not asking your job—but the general environment where there would be more of this type?
Ah Claire, I’d love to tell you, I really would. But I need to be careful. Goodness, I sound like one of those Ns who tells you he’s a spy or has friends who are…lol.
No worries—I was thinking government as a broad brush. I’m ready to teach online classes just so I can avoid all lessers, mid.. All of them. They make me sick. I don’t want to leave home!
Ah I totally understand Claire. That is exactly how I felt too! I wished the world could be rid of them. But eventually you move on from that and it is about learning how to manage them. it does take time. You’re a strong person and you’ll eventually reach a stage where you only find them comical. Great idea to teach online classes though.
It’s just a disgusted day Alexis. It’s feeling increasingly so as time goes on and I know that lamenting endlessly over what has been in the past is not helpful it is where the day started and keeps going.
That’s perfectly normal Claire. Honestly. But as each day goes by, the time you spend thinking about what they did who they are gets less and less until eventually you accept that is what they are and realise they will never change. And it is not then changing yourself as a person, not at all. Just adjusting certain behaviours to make sure they don’t have one over on you or get to you. Big hugs and love!
Your lamenting reminds me of Sean lock a British comedian, he talk about walking down the street and slaps his forehead and gasps as he recoils at a thought of a time he humiliated himself and another etc etc it was hilarious but also helps to normalise how we feel
Claire, I don’t know what Alexis does, but I can provide you with a few areas that Greaters seem to be interested in
1.) High Ranks of listed companies
Some of Greaters aren’t only the CEO, but actually own the companies and can pull strings in the shadows like you would not believe. People are owning not only one company, but a rivaling one as well and then orchestrate a competition between the two so they win either way. It’s on a whole another level.
2.) Some own charities, of course they are always the kind of charities that throw fancy dinners and are in everyones mouth. They are also not seen doing any of the hard work, of course, but will be the face of all the good deeds done in their name.
3.) Politics, politics, oh god, politics.
4.) I have zero knowledge of secret services, but what could an Upper Greater want more…other than politics, that is.
5.) Entertainment Industry, esp. for Middle Greaters
6.) Casinos. Please don’t ask.
It’s not a comprehensive list of course and I might be wrong, but that’s what I’ve observed
I’m not curious what her job is—just the sector (government, healthcare..) but the comment is appreciated. You mention the entertainment industry and I recall MJ being identified as a greater. His bizarre deportment would never trigger this thought in my mind. It’s interesting for sure. We all know lessers are easy to spot idiots basically. Mid-rangers have ruined my life to this point. (Yes that is whiny but it’s factual to a large extent.) Greaters can sit around and fuck each other over all day long in battles of wit and I really don’t care. It’s frankly mind-boggling for anyone to be driven by such a crude mechanism 100% of the time, although they certainly didn’t ask for the disorder as I didn’t “ask” to be so synchronized with them. At least HG is smart enough to have a calculated control over his behavior—although it makes tolerating poor behavior less appetizing because he does have control over it. What I mean by that is that when a greater screws over innocent people it’s intolerable because it’s like they are doing it “just because”—they make the choice. My ex is frankly too dumb to get overly angry with because HG has taught me that he has zero capacity to know what he is. I can also see it—he’s clueless. In a way I expect more from HG with regard to whatever trajectory brought him here and where he goes from here. The self awareness must be put to judicious use. I can excuse a lesser or mid-ranger more than a greater. (Not excuse entirely but I hope that makes sense.)
As far as greaters in general—I’m not impressed, they are actually not all smarter than a lot of upper mid-rangers. (For instance) HG explained to me once it is how their intelligence is deployed combined with other factors so there is zero worship from me for someone self aware of their poor behavior—it’s more just a general interest.
I understand the very polished and perfect image thing, it makes sense. But can there be a less polished greater HG? More blue-collar types?
Like as an example a more rough around the edges seeming police detective or something like that….
HG on Halloween dressed up in a police outfit so yes!
Damn it, I thought it was a good question and I really wanted to know the answer!
Haha—Funny thing about medicine (for instance) is that people think the docs are the brightest and smartest. Not necessarily… Most doc narcs are mid-rangers. HG clearly told me it is how the intelligence is deployed/expressed, etc— I’m paraphrasing because his exact words are lost on me. He even said mid rangers can be “smarter” than he from perhaps (I assume) a standardized test perspective.. I say government work is where lots of greaters of varying degrees reside. My friend came over last night and changed my garbage disposal for instance, (girl power!!) and she explained she isn’t a writer but can do handy stuff. I can write flowery long papers and academics are cake—yet I can barely change a light bulb. It’s got to be a medley of our strengths and intelligence that place us into various areas of our lives, much like narcissists. Yes, cognitive function is a key ingredient and a large chunk—not the sum total. By the way—I can change a furnace filter and learned to turn the water on to the faucets outside! I’m improving!
Claire, I can’t imagine him doing that!
I’m lost Nunya—doing what? I can’t re-read
my post!
Oh yes, Claire, I fully agree. It makes sense to me most doctor narcs would be MR, I would expect so. I just wonder if it’s possible for a greater to be in a position like I asked about. I could see the appeal of it and especially if the upbringing were less privileged. Or is it that a greater would always do something more high level controlling because of the capability, what with the human character observation ability and the lack of reason to hinder ones own ambition.
I kind of think it is something that could be and while not likely, it could be. There can be a lot of control, “valour”, manipulation possibilities, etc.. in a position like that. But I don’t fully understand yet all of the differentiations.
I think HG should bookmark and expand on this! I’ve seen a few docs throw things and have fits like whiny lessers to be honest. One in particular.. Cowboy boots with his scrubs. Embarrassing loser is what he was.
Claire, dressing like a cop for Halloween!
I will miss Halloween for the first time ever this year—I’ll be in Thailand. It just occurred to me I scheduled a trip over this fabulous day!
Nunya—it was interesting today. Short story—went to the zoo with a friend who is always entangled with narcissists and she knows this and has read material yes.. (not related to me at all—it’s just a common link and it’s really not been heavily discussed)
She is giddy over a new person she was introduced to by a sister of the man so feels safe. I bit my to tongue 100 times because she is absolutely becoming ensnared again. (My gauge told me to shut up.)
Red flags and logic:
The sister’s assessment of his suitability means very little.
His photos scream somatic narcissist. Provocative, huge muscles, multiple shirtless poses, a few in bed.. I was polite as if I were looking at an ugly baby because I knew..
He loves her but they haven’t actually done much together and have been talking a month.
She is constantly texting back and forth..
She is absolutely head over heels—it’s not normal. (As MB said the other day—Santa is not real..)
She thinks his job is admirable—police officer. Yes, could be but he likes the control.
She is too enthralled to hear me if I spoke.
—HG, I will stick with you and not whatever nonsense she learned about narcissism from. Thank you for saving me from another one. You have ruined my sex life but I accept it!
You are welcome.
Ha Claire, I’m not big on costumes, but funnily one of the two or three times I dressed up as an adult I was a cop.
HG should allow photos for Halloween and we can all dress up as lessers!
Claire:
“I was polite as if I were looking at an ugly baby because I knew..”
Haha, that is very funny.
From what you describe it sounds like a high possibility.
The combination would make me go on alert, but then any person would make me go on alert anymore, because we should be.
I have known muscular, heavily exercising men who are not narcs and also I know of one police officer who I think could be an empath. And I knew an empath man who was a fitness guy as well as military. The biggest red flag to me seems like your friends reaction? And the texting, etc…
I mean, used to get pretty excited about men with great bodies, and I’ve always been into guys who are not the muscular type as well, but have other interesting things, but also yes into guys who are the muscular type as well.
Currently- I refuse to get gaga over anyone, I mean maybe unless I felt very safe the person was empathic and the level is reasonable. Turned on- yes, interested- yes, even a little bit “looking forward to”, but not gaga. I expect a person to be able to have a reasonable interaction without all the fanfare, maybe just some intentional fun. When it comes to developing a real friendship with a person I think it’s important to make sure they can do “normal”.
I am a bit suffering at the moment though because I haven’t had sex in some time and I’m feeling weak about it. I’m trying my usual tactic of ignoring it. I wrote a thing on another post recently about my ability to have a healthy non-smothering, ongoing interaction with a person, and I do believe that if both sides put in a basic effort that way, life can be worked out- however I neglected to mention some of my sex cravings negate this. Don’t know about that.
Haha—ugly baby is right! Yes, he was “porn style”’good looking. Total narcissist I guarantee. The amount of sultry photos were gross and I assure you he has sent her “other pics.” I tend to like more white collar professional assholes. More my speed. Yes, her reaction makes me sad. I can see it and feel it because I understand it. It illustrates my progress which helps. I think what upsets me is how unbelievably huge of a life fix this is turning into. It’s not like I wanna go to law school and need a few months to study for the LSAT. That isn’t hard, study—take a test. This is an enormous learning/feeling/processing project. Holy shit this is a big deal. As far as sex—I explained in the other response to you.. It is dangerous right now and completely counterproductive to my goals. I could easily make arrangements and do it—It’s just the misery associated with the entire scenario
Oh, and by the way, Claire. I agree with what you said regarding greaters. Meaning in some way MR’s can be more appealing because there is some draw in that they do not know. Seeing someone calculate to a point where they are fully aware doesn’t really appeal to me. I think I have been pulled in quite a lot by my desire to be supportive and helpful.
On the other hand, I’ve a feeling someone like HG is kryptonite. I could see a particular greater having combinations of appeal that are very irresistible and the ability to perceive and calculate things while providing the illusion of protectiveness and support would do in my senses probably. And strong sexuality and good sex thrown in does nothing to deter me either. If I end up engaged in a certain way through that I don’t feel I have much resistance. All logic goes out the window and I’m just like,
“but…but…but….” and will practically pave the way I think.
A recent interaction I had the good sense to walk off, but it was in part due to my (probably somewhat sensible and healthy) selfishness regarding sex. If that had come about another way I likely wouldn’t have been so decisive. As an appliance I hit red alert maneuvering completely disregards me in an obvious way, I am not controlling but react badly to feeling I’m being blatantly herded. But ugh…sometimes it takes me awhile to pick up on it : P
Excellent post! I can be kryptonite when I’m hungry! I say that because I got busy today and didn’t get lunch till three hours past the usual time. I get mean! I am finding the type of men I am usually drawn to less and less attractive. I am not becoming more attracted to the normal ones though but I am in no way shape or form desirous of a relationship. Sex would be fun—but it’s only going to sting and set me back. First, it would invariably be a narcissist to even “approve”’of such a casual encounter most likely. Second, I’m too emotional to have casual encounters at this point in my life. Three, the risk of STI’s. Four—I had a semi-encounter that was upsetting awhile back, early spring with a long-term friend. I blocked him and now it’s uncomfortable when I run into him because he tries to engage with me. (He doesn’t work with me but he consults on patients occasionally.) I’m emotionally spent. Done.
Claire
Once Tudor Toys is rolled out, you can purchase a “totem” that satisfies while relieving you from all of the issues you mentioned.
NA—I love when you come out to play!
OH, and just rereading your zoo friend story, yes the PICS (in bed, etc..). I’d have to say a definite yes to N on that one I think.
Oh my gosh he is such a total loser and she is way too enthralled to hear a word I would even say! The poses are ridiculous.
Alexis, now I’m feeling paranoid! Should I be more careful about this? I shouldn’t have mentioned that thing about the charity under my real name…should I get a different name to post under? Oh god….it’ll be fine. It’s fine.
Thank you for confirming the “too perfect” factor of Greaters. This will help me hone my narc detecting skills, I’m a bit scared of what I might find, but hey at least they are super rare.
Don’t feel paranoid Desiree! There’s no need to feel paranoid. Just be careful. I personally wouldn’t put anything up which would identify me, but its more about being careful than paranoid. If others did find out who I was, then so be it. But I’m not going to invite it on myself. Well not just yet anyway…
Please don’t worry though. literally the chances of someone you know coming on this site are so slim and then the chances of them actually reading your comment very slim too. All in all, it’s highly unlikely.
I second Alexis’ comment. I changed my name here awhile back and on IG but do I really really really care? I am not confessing to crimes here—just trying to understand my life. If that is the worst thing I do..
‘But I have also learned that whilst there is some degree of calculation, she is also very much a one trick pony. She has honed her skills and they fool pretty much everyone because of her charm.’
Yes, same shit, different person to spread it on.
‘Yes, same shit, different person to spread it on.’
Hahaha so damn true ANK!
Desiree: Narcs and Casinos? Why? I know that lots of literal cash goes through those places. Cash is King. Money has power and money talks. And the house always win. And it is a numbers game And the games are rigged. Win-Loss management. And they say a sucker is born every minute. And once you are out of cash, you have to evacuate yourself from the premises, or be forcibly evacuated. And gambling is addictive to many. And there is always the hope of hitting a jackpot, dangled in front of those that engage in the games. And big rollers that lose are welcomed, and big rollers that know the game and win are put on a trouble list and are personas non grata. Sounds Narcish when I think about it. Slot machines: sounds a bit vulgar, yes? Slots. Slot machines. lol. The U.S. President once owned a casino, if I am not mistaken. He is a known narcissist, by all accounts. Can you tell me something at least about those casinos and Narcs? I understand the other categories that you listed. Casinos stood out. You were involved with a person there? Am I missing the mark altogether? I am not asking, just inquiring. 🙂
PrincessSuperEmpath
1.) some Casinos can be quite luxurious and target a nouveau riche clientele, eager to brag with their status symbols
2.) You have both the opportunity to show off your own status (which is already heightened should the narc be the owner) and of course you will have a VIP area where you pick the most suitable people to mingle with and charm them with the special treatment. Especially with the ones who drop by regularly, the narcissist can manipulate them to the point where it feels like you are at his own personal court. He’s the King of the Castle, we all just get to be in it.
3.) People become addicted and loose everything they have and more in those haunted Halls.The Narc I am thinking of took perverse pleasure in their misfortune. Targetting especially susceptible people and getting them to ruin their lives. It was not about the money but the sadistic glee he got from charming these people to keep them coming back, even though they had already lost substantial sums and watch them loose everything, knowing that he had caused it.
Of course, if you asked him, he gave you some sophisticated answer about how these incidents are most unfortunate but everyone who comes into the casino knows the risk of doing so and people need to control their urges…you get the idea.
Desiree: I find Casinos and their flock of customers utterly fascinating. With people actually knowing that the house wins, but enjoying the trappings and luxury of some of those places, like you say. Is there no other way to enjoy trappings and luxury without having to gamble ones money, in this life? Feeling status in gambling is so odd to me. I guess it is a form of a high. I think it was a good experience for you to see all that up close. It is not usual to meet people that have inside knowledge of that business. It is kept close with family and friends and their recommendations, as fellow employees. Almost like a family. Incestuous. I went with some friends once to Atlantic City. So unglamorous. I went to Las Vegas once, for a company convention. More glamorous than Atlantic City, but the lighting is so dark and odd inside that place. Surreal like. I heard of more glamorous places, I guess like Monte Carlo, or places like that. Sure, I would visit. Even private gambling establishments. I guess that is legal. Anyway, I went with some friends once to Atlantic City. They were first playing BlackJack and then Roulette. I do not know how to gamble, so I wandered over to the greedy Slot Machines. I felt like such a loser going over there, and sitting in those lowish height seats that practically scream loser. lol. Waitresses in miniskirts and fishnet stockings were all over the place offering everyone free watered down drinks all night. I put a nickel in the slot machine, and pulled the lever, and nothing came out, and over time, I lost about five dollars worth of nickels into that machine. When I did not win, after five dollars, one hundred nickels, I quit. The thrill was gone. And, I wanted my five dollars back. Hahahaha. I still had fun that night, minus my five dollars that the Casino took from me. I guess I got off easy, monetary loss wise. Five Dollars. So many things to become addicted to in life, but I am safe from the gambling addiction, I saw. A way to show wealth, by showing how easily one could lose money and remain in good form, I guess. I could not do it, unless, I were an elite mathematician, and then I would be banned over time, from those places for winning too much. I saw a movie once, and the owner secretly told the croupier to make sure his girl friend won at the table. And, she won and was delighted and in a great mood, afterwards. Now, that is the ticket! I saw another movie and the Casino used secret magnets within the table to make sure a certain guy lost his money. The husband of one of my friends said he came out ahead about five thousand dollars from our outing to Atlantic City. Did he? Who knows. He sure looked stressed out while he drove us back. He did not seem to be in Winner Mode. He is a lower level High Roller. He is often provided with a free hotel room, meals and the like from Atlantic City, no worries, so that he can come over often and be comfortable, while he loses his cash to that place. He goes there a lot. A real V.I.P. according to the Casino`s classification and criteria. In other words, he is Good Fuel Supply.