Poll : Which Part of Understanding The Narcissistic Dynamic Do You Struggle With The Most?

KTN Poll - H.G Wants To Know Post Graphic

 

It is a fact that much of the narcissistic dynamic is engineered to keep you in confusion. If you remain confused you provide more fuel and you remain paralysed, making it easier for us to control. Nevertheless, even when information and knowledge is provided to victims, they still struggle to comprehend certain parts of the dynamic. Sometimes it is because it just does not make sense, sometimes it is because they understand why it happens but cannot understand why someone still has to behave like that.

The poll contains some of the more common elements of the dynamic that people struggle with. You can choose up to three (ensure you pick them at the same time before entering your votes) and please do expand in the comments as to why this remains so difficult for you to understand, or if your reason is not there, please explain further in the comments section.

Thank you for participating.

 

What part of understanding the narcissistic dynamic do you struggle with the most?

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215 Comments

  1. Curious about something HG. I feel your readings give great information to help validate what I need to do to distance myself from the narcissist I saw for almost 10 years. My question is,,, do you consider constantly reading and discussing about these people keep you from moving on because these readings still keep the memory of the narcissist still in your mind. Or is this ok to do as part of the disengagement of the narcissist from your mind in a logical thinking sense and basically killing the emotional thinking of the narcissist from your mind?

    1. 1. Reading is not problematic. You will naturally link what you read to what has happened. If you have a lightbulb moment, that is excellent. If you find you are struggling to reconcile the behaviour, persevere and recognise that this is owing to your emotional thinking trying to prevent you from applying the understanding. Consider whether you are engaging with the narcissist in other areas (or other narcissists) as this will keep ET high and prevent the application of understanding. Reduce your ET and logic prevails. If you are reading and then spending time sitting thinking about the narcissist over and over, that is problematic, but it is not the reading which is the issue, it is the thinking.
      2. Talking about the narcissist should be removed, unless you do so with me because that provides a clear and tangible benefit in logic.

      It is inevitable that in gaining understanding that you will have some rise in ET, this is acceptable because of the outcome. It is akin to taking a medicine which has a slight side effect in order to eventually get rid of a major illness.

  2. I find that the biggest change in my understanding of the N/E-dynamic is one that overlaps with ‘the seduction wasn’t real’:
    that for the N, the golden period, and having the E interested and entrapped, is the endpoint.

    Having her plugged into the fuel matrix is the endgame.

    It’s only ever the start for the E….

    I show interest, and I’m waiting to feel loved, but it doesn’t happen.
    I wait.
    I have feelings.
    I fall in love.
    The N thinks that he has it all sewn up.

    I’m waiting to see some substance, and some more things to admire, and some genuine efforts (not empty words) to move the relationship forward.
    It stalls.
    He starts treating me badly.
    He creates drama.
    I don’t know why.
    He already has what he wants, unbeknown to me, that is my attention and emotional responses. That’s all that I’m offering at that point, and that’s on a conditional basis.

    I’m still waiting and hoping, becoming sadder, lonelier, and more confused.
    Suddenly feeling needy and insecure. Drained.
    Expertly walking on eggshells.

    How did I get here again?

    Where is the sexy man that I first met?

    Why is he not embarrassed to be acting so appallingly?

    Why is he, a grown man, behaving this way?

    Surely he’s learned that this behaviour kills the relationship?

    Surely he doesn’t act this way at work? He’d be fired!

    Why has he changed so much?

    He must be getting his ‘needs’ met elsewhere.

    This has proven to be a large component of the cognitive dissonance that I’ve experienced, as the N’s attainment of his endpoint was obscured by the mirage of “relationship”. I’ve take these “relationship” failures to heart, especially as I’ve experienced them over and over.

    I thought that there was potential for love and closeness.
    Alas!
    No.

    What a waste of a sexy man.

    1. @Caroline,

      Your description of the progressive stages we empaths navigate rings so true to me.

      Don’t they realize this type of behavior ruins relationships?
      What a waste of a sexy man.

      Exactly what I have thought about a million times.

  3. The lies. It’s still difficult to wrap my mind around the fact that it was all just a lie.

  4. I can’t understand labelling a person in a dehumanizing way (the label “narcisisst”). I grasp onto “goodness” and I see abusers in my warped way. I find it hard to think black and white about a person especially if I’ve just spent time with them. I have trouble understanding that the narcissist isn’t “good”.

  5. I may have misled Joanne or ? by posting with just my initial ‘K’ theres the site expert “K” and then there’s me – I usually post as Kate or Kathleen usually… Just to clear that up. 😊-I got lazy…

    1. Kathleen
      Please use K if you like! You are one of my kind (an empath) and I recognize your gravatar. If you were one of HG’s kind, I would probably switch to KK so there wouldn’t be any confusion.

      I get lazy too so I completely understand.

  6. I clicked, “That Lessers and Midrangers do not know what they are”.
    I would say in general, the most difficult aspect about Narcissistic Abuse, is that everyone has their own reality and recounts of previous events.
    Emotionally immature people/disordered people, make the worst decisions, and it’s hard to understand the “why”.

  7. I picked why you cannot stop thinking about the narcissist and the positive feelings for me were not real. I recently moved a half hour away from my ex narc and I still think about him sometimes! Like what is he doing and I even thought about driving up to his place to see if he is still there. I don’t even understand why because I know what he is and I don’t want him back.
    But one thing that is not listed is recently , thanks to HG, I found out my dad is a narcissist . I struggle with this because it explains my whole life up until this point and why things happened . Every day I think of past events with my dad and I think “omg now I understand why he said or did that.” The worst part is i really have no other family members I can talk to about it. My mom has passed and my sister 98% of the time will take my dads side and she cannot keep quiet about anything ! I really struggle with what to do with this information .

    1. It seems to me that in addition to addiction, thinking about and wanting to check on the narcissist even though one doesn’t want them back could be greatly contributed to lack of closure. The disbelief and truth seeking trait in empaths demands an answer and none is provided by the narcissist, so the mind is restless and keeps scrutinizing for some way to settle the discrepancy between what we felt and their indifference and ability to move on. The only closure is that which we provide ourselves by finally accepting our logic is not theirs. They will never provide anything that we could accept. Our brain really wants to stretch, move on, and engage other things. We need to allow it by accepting that.

      1. Excellent NA! This makes sense. I hope you are having a good day:) (Lorelei—the artist formerly known as Claire!)

    2. Candacemarie
      I feel your pain about having no one else to talk it through with.
      I’m sorry that you have a N-Dad.
      I feel your heartache over the family dynamic.

      Is your sister still badly gaslighted? Brainwashed and adhering to the family propaganda?
      Is she still trauma bonded to your N-dad and essentially still in survival mode to try to get her emotional needs met (& failing, of course)?
      Her taking his side may be part of the Stockholm Syndrome that we develop growing up.
      There’s a chance of things improving, if she’s interested in personal growth.

      I’ve observed my brother with new eyes since finding HG, and since subsequently recognising that my mother had NPD. (He’s ‘normal’, down the N-end of the spectrum, and I have a victim-N sister with NPD).

      I recently realised that my brother’s reactions to certain things could easily be evidence of him being triggered. He exhibits a hypervigilence about certain things, and is hypersensitive about his children in certain respects.
      It’s nothing to do with me per se, but concerns him having a whole lot of buried pain from childhood, that is now not staying buried.

      I love him, and want to lighten the huge burden that he’s been carrying.

      I’m looking for an opportunity to gently bring up the subject of our childhood with him, and N-mother’s abuse. To facilitate a safe place for validation of our feelings, so that we can compare notes, and have some “WTactualF!” moments denied us while N-Mother was alive.
      We need to totally dismantle the gaslighting that we were subjected to, the lies and distortions.

      I’m hoping that he’ll be comfortable making some time for such a thing.

      I want to take it slowly.

      I’m in therapy for it now, and finally having my feelings validated by another professional. In coming to terms with the truth, I’ve realised that I’ve always been emotionally alone in my family.
      The perfect daughter who was made responsible for everyone else’s feelings, but was unsupported for hers.

      My uncle’s recent death made this fact painfully obvious.

      If you can manage it, I recommend seeing a good psychologist/domestic violence counsellor for a start. We can do so much ourselves to read and process things, but sometimes an empathetic, wise and trustworthy person is necessary for moving through the grief and for healing. This is especially so when an ACON has PTSD.

      1. Caroline-
        I don’t talk to my sister hardly at all. She was the golden child and I was the scapegoat. So I have always resented her for being the”perfect child” and for always taking my dad’s side even after she left home for college and basically only listened to his side of what was going on with me at home. After my mom passed my dad moved to another state just to live 10 minutes from my sister and her family. Then just recently he followed them to South Carolina when they moved there. So since he is elderly he lives with them now. I can’t see my sister accepting the fact my dad is a N. I don’t think she would believe it and probably laugh at me then tell my dad what I said. That is just how she has always been.
        I wish you the best in therapy. My psychiatrist actually recommended I find one. I hope you can work through your family difficulties and find peace. 🙂

  8. I have a hard time with some of the Mid Ranger mentions. I get that their narcissism protects them and that they are unable to see it, but I wonder how they are able to lack such self-reflection.

    I sometimes am confused how some narcs are able to see how other narcs misbehave but then are oblivious to themselves. It’s like they can articulate very well some other narc’s flaws but then not see it in themselves.

    The Mid Ranger thought Trump was awful, yet could not see how his own actions were deceitful. I understand that from their perspective it is just their narcissism rationalizing it, but they don’t ever waver and question themselves.

    I had 2 narc coworkers who hated each other. An UMRC and a LMRV (forgive I got those wrong) but both could see how manipulative the other was yet remained clueless about their own actions.

    I also still struggle with how I can be empathetic yet still have this narc streak. I get some bad thoughts that I have to talk myself out of. I am generally not a fan of humanity. I sometimes ask what do people really do? What purpose do they serve other than serving themselves?

    I suffer from envy and always think I am lacking and then I resent the narcs who seem to ‘have it all’ and everything always seems to work out for them. If I am so empathic then why are they happy and I am sad?

    It is ridiculous, but it requires self-talk. I don’t always understand my ET. It is a genuine pain in the *.

    HG, I saw on another thread that you plant trees. I am glad to hear it.

  9. I was just thinking about this subject yesterday. I “know” the narcissist, I’ve read everything that HG has written and know that his words are true. I see them as fact but I will never truly understand. I think as empaths we have to feel to understand. Our logical side can me sense of it but our emotional side cannot accept the illusion. We can’t feel the sense of it because their actions are not real. For me in order to understand a thing I have to be able to put myself in the subject situation and feel their emotions. I can’t do this with a narcissist because their emotions are nonsensical to me.

    1. No, this is emotional thinking. To understand you base decisions on logic and evidence, not feelings. Feelings are unreliable and in the context of our kind, lead you to bad outcomes.

      1. I dont disagree that decisions should be based on logic and facts. You have single handedly taught me to recognize the difference between emotional and logical decisions. I apply this knowledge in everything I do and it has only improved my life. I sincerely thank you  for that. 

        What I was trying to say is that we can cognitively understand the narcissists needs but because those needs are void to our emotions we can’t truly understand the narcissist. Just as you have cognitive empathy but cannot relate to our need for love and intimacy.

  10. 1. The need for fuel
    I try to understand this by putting myself in the situation of needing attention or good feelings from family and friends, but it is not the same. Why do narcs need fuel from tertiary sources? A smile from a stranger, for example. Why? Why do they starve for fuel to the extent that they are willing to destroy relationship after relationship? For fuel? Why? Why is fuel such a big deal? I just don’t get it.

    2. That the positive feelings were not real
    Hg, you wrote in an article that you think you are in love at the beginning, but you have come to realize that it is infatuation. So, there is infatuation, which is real.

    3. That sex is just a method of gaining fuel
    Hg wrote that if he can gain fuel without sex, he would do so. Please correct me if I am wrong. But a male narc will have physiological needs, so I don’t understand this.

    1. 1. Fuel is what matters, it is our lifeblood. If a relationship founders owing to our need for fuel, so be it. Remember, our narcissism causes us to see that it is the fault of the other party therefore it is not seen by the narcissist as causing the destruction of the narcissist and the majority of narcissists do not know that they need fuel. Thus Lesser and Mid Range do not think “I need fuel but it is fucking up my relationships.” Instead, they do not know they need fuel, do not know that this impacts upon the destruction of the relationship (although this is not always true – it might be a non-fuel related issue) and they see the destruction of the relationship as the fault of the other person. Moreover, for all narcissists, we tend to be the one ending the relationship and usually do so (if this is the correct disengagement trigger) because we have a new relationship ready and waiting, so the end of the existing relationship is YOUR fault and does not matter anyway.
      The Greaters know its needed, know it impacts on relationships but neither care (no remorse or guilt) and it is not a problem as the Greaters’ fuel matrices enable use of alternative appliances AND greaters are far more proficient at easily replacing.

      2. It is real and genuine.

      3. Fuel is all. Yes sex feels physically pleasant BUT the hatred of intimacy counters this is some instances and it is always outweighed by the need for fuel. If we can gain fuel without sex, that is what would happen, it just so happens sex is a brilliant way of exerting control and gaining fuel.
      If you need assistance understanding these concepts further, I recommend you organise a consultation.

      1. Hi HG!

        Thank you for the detailed reply! I actually did not expect any reply to my questions because these are questions I have been struggling with for a long time, so I just posed them “aloud.” But you are so gracious, as always, to us HERE. So kind of you to answer! “HERE” is the keyword- we all know very well how you are outside of this blog. And we must not forget that! However, I feel that the shieldmaiden has softened you somewhat. Are you still in the golden period or has devaluation commenced?

  11. Ruminating on it. There’s something maybe i find fascinating that they’re so able to just flip a switch. To be so free of guilt and care. I think it’s related to why sex with them can be so intense… It’s the craziness…felt like anything goes doesn’t matter because well gosh my narcissist is kind of nuts… So it was very freeing in that aspect. Like who’s this one to judge.
    I sometimes envy that ability to flip a switch. It would make life so much easier sometimes in many situations. It’s a catch22.
    Also even though this forum is very entertaining and informative I’m beginning to see that I probably need to back away to help reduce my emotional thinking. These essays are keeping thoughts alive –
    I need to move towards once you know you go more…and going eventually has to include stopping reading about talking about narcissists-etc. If only Trump would get out of office I could also really forget about it better- he’s such an example every day pretty much. Also I would miss HG a bit.

    1. K
      Sometimes I wonder if I really just need to block myself from all narc related reading, including the blog – much as I do enjoy all of you 🙁

      1. That is emotional thinking. You are being misled by your ET into cutting yourself off from a source of logic.

          1. Joanne, K, you two are not going anywhere! We are planning a party at the dungeons, girls! You don’t know what I’m talking about? Well, how are we gonna find the reference now if K leaves, huh? And who am I going to share my two-month silly-affair-obsession with if Joanne leaves? Have you thought about it? Of course not. Empaths only think about narcs. Hahaha don’t leave! ❤️

          2. SP
            You *are* the sweetest 🥰 How I wish we could really have a party! How fun would that be?! Yes, yes HG – I know that’s a no no but it still sounds like a good time anyway. What a fuel fest too!

            Also I think 2 month silly affair obsession should be added to the acronym glossary since I never stfu about it! 2MSAO🤪

          3. Joanne, I’m afraid I may be gaining a reputation for always proposing a party here, but I believe we truly need it! On the other hand, we definitely need to enter 2MSAO in the list of acronyms. I checked and I didn’t see anything similar yet, but the definition of HGT made me spill my coffee this morning. Btw, what is a martyr Empath??? Have we ever talked about this?

          4. SP
            I just had to refer back to the glossary to see HGT — LOL!
            I haven’t heard of martyr empath before – definitely interested in learning more about that one….
            And yes we need the party. It can be masquerade so that none of us have to reveal our true identities. That would work, right HG?! 😉

          5. Joanne: We are not Narcissists. If you take a break, we are not going to forget you. Or, take it as a wounding or insult. Plus all of our schedules change and things go down in our life, and sometimes some groups or individual are on here more than others on any given day or week, and you know that. I took a break the last time HG was away, and I changed gyms and I did some necessary boring things, that were about to go to emergency status. So I think you know what I mean. But, breaks can be good at times, but you are well loved on here. I do NOT want to get mushy. So that’s it.

          6. PSE
            aww you are so sweet 🥰 I totally feel the love and I’m glad you wouldn’t “delete me from your minds” like a narc 😂😂 I’m just concerned with prolonging my thoughts of the narc by my continued reading, as K mentioned. But I know that without you all, the thoughts are there and I feel lonely with no one who understands. I think I almost lost my mind without you all when HG was away! I’m going to try what you did, take care of some things I’ve been neglecting and try to busy myself that way in order to keep my thoughts at bay. Thank you for your reply and your ongoing support, too 😘

        1. I agree HG—this blog isn’t just about narcissism, although you created it with this purpose. It’s really peppered with logic everywhere that is applicable to some other self helpful interests. While we are at it can you tell me why when I’m on a diet I will eat two cucumbers because it’s low calorie just so I’m nibbling on something?! My addictive crap expands much further than just relationships!!

      2. Joanne
        Yeah, listen to HG. He knows what he’s talking about. My ET is in check because of narcsite. I am not nearly as pissed off as I used to be.

          1. Mercy
            I have the beautiful pink mug and the other K (Kate W) has the cat for her gravatar.

          2. K, I lost you twice. First I was seeing double then couldn’t find you to respond haha. I see you now. I’ve got your mug in my sight!

          3. Mercy
            Ha ha ha…If you want to find me, I am on the: Big Little Lies, threads. Trying to figure out who’s who on the spectrum.

        1. K
          Yes, my logic defenses have strengthened so much over these last few months. I’m just tired of him being in my mind, you know? ugh

          PS Love your mug!! ☕️😉

          1. Thank you Joanne
            My mug is beautiful! Just read and post for maintenance but get busy with other things in life. Go to the movies, read a good book or hang out with friends. That’s what I am doing and it seems to be working well.

          2. Thanks K.
            Maintenance is a good way to put it. It’s not like the blog is causing me to feel soft or longing for him, quite the opposite. I do need to stop with the narc books, though, and get back to reading regular novels 🙂

          3. My pleasure Joanne
            Maintenance is very important and you are right; I don’t long for my MMRN at all. Take a break and make a list of summer reads.

        2. K—I’m less pissed off not only because of HG but recently due to some of your comments expanding on narcissists in general such as at work. You broke down his concepts into a tangible explanation I could grasp. (I was Claire a few weeks ago but there is another one now so I changed)
          Please don’t leave the blog. You are too valuable here! HG says everything of course—but sometimes it takes another person’s interpretation on matters or illustration for it to sink in. I’m still befuddled lots—but not about as much. I will be interested to see where my life is in another 9 months or so. I’d say I found the blog around October of last fall? Roughly.. I’m a fruit cake half the time but I was substantially worse last summer.

          1. Lorelei
            It’s the logic (LT) that removes the anger (ET) and different perspectives help us work through that. You will be befuddled less and less as you keep reading and posting. The New Claire, a.k.a. Lorelei, is already in a new place but just wait till more time goes by; it just gets better and better.

            No worries! I’m like herpes; I never go away.

    2. K. From my understanding, It is the Narcissism that flips the switch. The Narcissism is focused on keeping the fuel line from cutting off. There is no time, says the Narcissism, a fearsome survival mechanism, for weeping and playing sad songs on a guitar and having long talks about why more fuel is now needed from elsewhere or now needed back from a certain ex again, or even you again in an endless cycle of maudlin explanations and pleadings and debate. No time for all that!!! The Narcissism is a force of non-stop action and plotting and surviving. So it is a different way to go through life. It is not just callousness, although it is callous, it is not forgetfulness, though it appears that way. It is just a blinding focus that also wears blinders. And it is disorderly to society in many ways and extremes depending on the Narcissist. And it is not completely personal, most of the time, but it does hurt many persons, because it can be sadistic and chaos loving as it goes about its business of seeking fuel. And yes, it hurts to be mowed down by the force of a Narcissist and their Narcissism. Of course. Buyer Beware!

  12. The ruminating is the hardest about everything. He would comment sometimes when we had sex he would leave his socks on.

  13. HG,

    I forgot the most important thing.

    I would like to know (I think it would be interesting for others also) how to crush different schools of narcissist.

    Some phrases, something that would wound them. I don’t mean a “revenge” and jib jabs you were writing about. I mean, since only the Greater knows what he is I imagine that telling the Greater you know what he is and sticking to no contact is the greatest offence.

    But M-R doesnt know what he is. I guess you have to exhibit different kind of mindset to wound them. Still NC is the key, I know but what pisses them off most? How to act, what attitude you should have in public? If he portrayed you as monster during discard should you play an angel in public to show him and others how wrong he was? Should you display those empathic traits? Or maybe you should act like cold hearted villian “i don’t care you feel hurt, maybe I am badass, so what”. How to shock them? What mask should you wear to make them feel like a fool?

    The effect I would like to achieve is showing him he didn’t know me at all and that even he tried to destroy me, he missed totally because maybe I am different person and my buttons he was pushing are somewhere else. I would like to shock him with my strenght amd the fact he didn’t destroy me. I would like to change the dynamic and stop feeling like a victim

  14. Learning what I have learned, and looking back on it all, I can see it for the fraud it was. The love bombing, found it was a script he uses on us all. Every word, every touch, every interaction, something in me knew the connection wasn’t really there, the bond was one sided. Having to still live with him, mask completely gone now with me, as I will provide him ZERO fuel, has helped that immensely. He is so creepy and bizarre, a glitched robot, a stumbling, starving, lost zombie. But I know when he goes out, to meet with new potentials, the mask goes back on.

    It’s the whole self understanding for me. How aware he is, if at all, of what he does, what he is. I can’t imagine you can behave so bizarrely and think it’s just normal old you. Can be this desperate and pathetic and not think there’s something wrong in the noggin.

  15. 1. I still do not understand how a mid range narcissist who gives many cruel discards in his life to good decent people may still dont know what he is, may still think he is a good person and even a victim. I don’t know how is it possible to not feel any guit.

    Ofc I know how the whole prpcess looks like thanks to you HG but it is beyond my ability to uderstand.

    It would be easier for me to understand if he would discard forever. It would be at least logical “I had to discard her because he is bad person and I never want to see her again”.

    But still they come back, want to stay in touch. With a person who hurt them in their minds. This is insane.

    2. Every time I see he tries to hoover me or other women esp when it is passive hoover, not direct communication (eg he posts “our” song) part of me thinks it is genuine. Like he is sad and miss me. Ofc I keep no contact bc I know its all fake but I dont understand what is going on in his mind at that time. I imagine the Greater thinks “let’s play with “Carol” and check if she still is in emotional see. I”ll post her song. Oh yes yes, she reacted, ha ha, what a stupid girl, she still ia thinking about me, lol! OK, thats enough, i gotta go, Pola is waiting”.

    But Mid rangers who doesn’t know what they are? I have no idea what they think to themselves when they hoover someone they have disarded.

    1. I can explain this for you, but it is detailed. I recommend you organise a consultation so I can assist you and you can also ask me all the questions you have about this. It is difficult for you to understand (and that is nothing to do with how intelligent you are) but you are fighting against your established world view which is difficult and ingrained. It is beneficial to try to understand it, but if you cannot, then you must accept that this is the case and concern yourself no more with it.

    2. My MR justified his behavior by always paying for everything. This appealed to his sense of superiority and control. It’s been proven that many women will accept a date for a free meal. I allowed him to pay bc it insulted him otherwise. He was a weird creature….

    3. Tex—it is incredible how they have the persona of decency. My ex yesterday pulled off an Oscar performance of class, grace, poise, charm.. Behind closed doors he kicks the dog, uses foul language, is deplorable in general. The “disconnect” they have between their actions and their self perception is incredible. I am always aware of when I’m an ass. They deflect/blame shift/rationalize.. K has said the defense mechanism is brilliant and it is.

  16. I have had an epic weekend. Here are some highlights: I dressed up like Jessie from Team Rocket and had my picture taken often with other Pokémon cosplayers, I got into a blaster battle with Darth Vader that he would have won if the droid hadn’t flown the ship into the hanger and rescued us, I piloted and was a gunner on the Millennium Falcon, and my horse was in a movie.

    It has been just over a year since I kicked my husband out after finding out he had been continuously having affairs. I have been NC for weeks at a time, but I’ve just given up on that. He won’t let me go, either, but he is gone, so I just let it be what it is. I am continuing to have the epic life I thought I could only have with him, and he is not having it because he had to go all narcy on me. His loss.

    At the movie filming last night, some woman who was part of the crew wanted to ride my horse, and I said she could. I was kicking myself for saying she could. My horses are not rent-a-nags, they are my personal horses and companions, and I don’t just let anyone ride them. Because of the heat and because of the nerd fest and Disneyland excursions, I haven’t ridden in three weeks, and I’m just gonna give up my ride for some random person who asks? Literally everyone asks to ride my horses, and I agree to this much too often. I have very poor boundaries. It is a wonder that my ex was my only narc.

    I didn’t let her ride as a start to protecting myself (and my horses) from takers. This woman was probably a fine person, but it’s the principle of the matter. No, I don’t want to give up my ride or put some random person of questionable riding skill on my companion horse. Go rent a nag. That’s going to be my position from now on.

    I have also given up on trying not to think about the narc. I burned my wedding dresses and the wedding rings I had that would burn, and that ritual didn’t change anything for me. Bottom line is he’s gone, and I have to go on. I’ll think about him, but he’s gone and I have to go on. Sometimes I’m sure I’ll still cry, but he’s gone and I have to go on.

    And I want to go on.

    The movie filming happened after a 4 hour drive back from California, and I had to drive 3.5 hours towing my horses to get to the film location. I was complaining, got lost a few times as it is a pre-civilization Western, and I was tired and uncomfortable, and I wasn’t getting compensated for my time and effort, only reimbursed for gas. I had to work the next day and wasn’t likely to get home until 2 am. There was some suffering involved, but I didn’t want to quit. Adventure is uncomfortable. What you want you will endure some suffering for. My horse played his part of…the horse…perfectly. It was fun. I booked it home after his scenes were done and I’m sure for the horses it was a little like Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride, but we got home just after midnight.

    I could not endure the suffering any longer for the narc, but he was my passion for that little while, so I endured quite a lot of suffering for him. Now I turn towards having the life I really want. That means enduring the nagging thoughts and communications, dreams, complicated grief, strong today-weak tomorrow, and such, while I get on with life. I want my life.

    He didn’t. It doesn’t matter. I do.

    One year on, how am I doing?

  17. Dear HG: since you told me no slapping would be involved in this and urged me to always ask in the name of knowledge, please let me know: is this a hoover? My best friend just informed me my narc deleted her from his Facebook friends. Why would he do that? She doesn’t even check her profile much, and has never interfered or said anything to him while we were entangled. He knows she is the only one who knew though…

    1. He may regard her as loyal to you and thus sees her as the enemy, assuming you are painted black. It may be done because he is concerned that she is a conduit for information about him, to you and he does not want that. It maybe because he wants to provoke a response from you. I need more information to provide you with an accurate answer and advocate your organise a consultation.

      1. Thank you so much, HG. I am definitely painted black and so is probably my friend, but if I wanted to receive any information about him she wouldn’t be the most immediate source: he’s still Facebook friends with my husband (I had to fight the urge to check on him from his profile at first, now I don’t even check Facebook anymore) or other friends we do have in common. That’s why I thought maybe it is to piss me off. I wanted to ask: can the narc detector be done during a consultation? Because I guess you first would need to know what school and cadre he is, right?

        1. Sweetest—HG will probably prefer the narc detector. He has been able to tell me someone indeed “sounds narcissistic” but I presume the aggregate of behaviors requires a prescriptive analysis. He can say a reader is likely empathic but the exact nature of such is done in the empath analysis. Probably the same concept.

      2. On the topic of social media… is it best to just get rid of your profile and lay low for
        A while? The narc is blocked but some
        Of his friends are still on mine…
        But restricted… my pride tells me to forget it… they don’t run my life… but my logic is telling me to get rid of it all for a while.

        1. empath007 – removing myself from social media brought me great freedom and very quickly lowers your ET and thoughts about the N or acquaintances. Social media is a vice, a bad habit which halts your progress after engagement with an N. Have your own back and quit it! In my experience this is the key to ensuring your focus is on yourself and your recovery.

          1. Thanks sarah and HG. I’ve been letting my pride rule this decision for me. I made it through a lot of traingulation tagged posts without reacting. But the one I’m dealing with is a greater and I assume he’s angry I’ve been able to do so…. I’m going to do it. You’ve encouraged me.

          2. Very happy for you 007. You will be amazed how quickly you feel better when the virtual world is no longer a factor. Let us know how you go?!

          3. Thanks Sarah… I did it. I still
            Feel odd about it because I didn’t want to “react” in anyway. I didn’t want them to feel like they’ve gotten to me. But I don’t want information about me fed back to the narc and add fuel to his fire.

            My pride. It gets in my way a lot.

  18. I have difficulty understanding why i didn’t become a narcissist even if i was born in a dysfunctional family? I was the scapegoat of the family. Whenever there was an argument i was the one to blame and was almost always neglected. Thus i had to be my own parent and learn life lessons in a hard way.

  19. I’m sorry for my english in avance.
    The only thing I can ‘t understand is how a mid ranger can belive his own lie about something he did yesterday. I mean, yesterday he was unfairhful to you, to day he líes about it and belives it…impossible to be so sick
    ?????????????????

    1. I do not know where you are in your dynamic Carmen, but trying to fathom this out when your emotional thinking is high is very hard. You are best served imposing no contact, reducing your ET and coming back to this. For now you do not need to understand it because you will not be able to apply it. If you want to discuss it further however, use this https://narcsite.com/private-audio-consultation/ since it is a detailed conversation.

  20. I put why it hurts so much post escape bc it ties into the reason which wasnt listed which is understanding myself. I have so much knowledge about npd ive gained here yet im still in the dynamic. It isnt bc i dont know what he is or why. Its more to do with what about me is trapped and afraid to change the dynamic. A big part is the pain associated with the loss of someone i love and care about but another side is the fear of life without the narc and the unknown. Then theres do i even want to end the dynamic. The confusion is about me and no longer the narc.

    1. CM
      I feel this too. If he were still around, giving me decent/lengthy glimpses of the golden period in between shelving, I would probably have continued on with it, with my ET thinking I can manage the dynamic. Of course for me this is hypothetical but I see your position and that makes me confused about myself as well.

  21. I wonder why they cant see, that in the long run, they will just end up driving everyone away. When all who have tried to care for them, just cant take the abuse any more. No matter how much someone loves them.

    1. just a number
      But it does not matter. They get bored of everyone anyway. So if they drive someone away, they’ll just turn on the charm and poof, a new victim will always be there.

  22. I struggle with ‘why it is so difficult to let go’ even when we know! I struggle with understanding why there is an intense addictive quality to the Narcissist, that there is not to “normal” people, even when normal people might sometimes do some of the same types of things that Narcissists do, at times- during Love Bombing, or even with the “giving of the crumbs”. I wish I could understand this addiction, and how to conquer it.

    Also, I know that we must think logically, as opposed to emotionally, but I wonder ‘how’ do we do this?

    If I add these two questions to my other questions for the Consultation, this will make it 19 questions that I will wish to ask. So, would it be easier if I emailed you all my questions beforehand so you can tell me which ones are irrelevant, so I do not waste your time? I am hoping that none of them are stupid questions, but there might be a few. I should go over my list and prioritize. I am excited! If my phone loses connection, I will break it in half.

    1. I totally am not expecting you to answer this question above, as you have so many other questions to answer and I am not entitled to your answers, or attention, by any means! I understand that you are needed by many important people. I was really just thinking out loud. So, no…please do not think I was expecting an answer because I was not. Sometimes I just like to journal my thoughts. Thank you!

    2. Tamara: I understand what you are saying. Narcissists are very very very sensitive people. I believe their minds created another sense, or opened up another area in their minds that most of us do not have much privy to. And to aid the Narcissism, that is the Chief Operating System of the Narcissist, this extra sense gives them an advantage over us, to help them with any weaknesses the Narcissism latently carries within itself, to better obtain the fuel from us for the Narcissist. For example, if it is true that the ordinary person has six senses, like I hear all the time, it is as if the Narcissist then has at least 7 senses. And somewhere in this 7th or more senses that they have, we attach to them in an odd way, because that seventh+ sense can penetrate our minds and emotions and physicality in a powerful way, that we know little about, and we wonder, What Is This? What is Happening to me? How to get out of this? Some of us will find our way out, and some of us will not. As one of our readers, K, says, this knowledge on Narcsite from HG Tudor, will take some of the sting away from our entanglements. As HG Tudor constantly tells us and advises us and explains to us, and directs us, over and over and over, it is OUR LOGICAL THINKING, in particular, that is our chief weapon against the Narcissism and thereby the Narcissists. And he teaches us how and when and where to apply this logical thinking. And on a case by case basis, HG gives us strategies and weapons and directions to defeat the particular Narcissist and the Narcissistic dynamic in play, in the particular situations and scenarios that each person is battling in their respective entanglement/s. Each Narcissistic entanglement is different for each of us. For example, I am in a workplace dynamic, and I am a Non Intimate Person Secondary Source to the Narcissist, his main one, and I thought he was the one person that I was enmeshed with in my particular Narcissistic entanglement, when in total, I learned from HG Tudor that it was 5 persons in total, and one extra person just entered the entanglement, a former best friend. How shocking is this? To me, it was quite a revelation. Knowing the true battle, I can effectively fight back. Before I found Narcsite, I was just flailing and swinging at pinatas, with a blindfold over my eyes. And I am now winning the fight that I was losing. And, yes, the entire ordeal is quite emotionally painful. But, in time, my emotions will catch up with my successes.

      1. PSE
        Your comment about us having 6 senses and the narcissist having 7 reminds me of one of HG’s articles where he notes that if we have a forehead they have a fivehead. Makes me laugh every time because you can hear them in your mind announcing that with complete conviction.

      2. PSE,

        Wow, five of them! I am glad you are winning this fight because I would not have thought it otherwise probable… with five (let alone, one!). Yes, Workplace Narcissists need to be considered because it is not just about Romantic relationships in which they ensnare us. And, in the workplace, it can be just as hopelessly devastating, as this is our livelihood.

        Thank you, PrincessSE, for your reply. It is a magnificent one. ♥️

      3. Huzzah PrincessSuperEmpath
        great answer and now you can hit the pinatas and finally get some candy.

  23. Well, all of it really. But, everything was so sweet for a minute, why does it have to cycle through to the devaluing bullshit as it does? Also, get out of my head and my heart.

  24. For me its… everything. Every time I come across your kind it makes me just enraged someone could live in such An alternate reality to mine. Doesn’t matter how I know them, friend, family or lover…. I would always spend so much time thinking they are wrong and trying to correct them.

    What’s awesome now…
    Is with your information HG I will no longer waste my time trying to correct a narc ever again. I now understand that’s impossible. I also feel much more confident In what I know and believe to be true. And I accept not everyone will agree with me… and getting mad about it only fuels them to do what they want all the more.

    What a freeing feeling.

  25. 1. Can’t stop thinking about narcissist/ is he a narcissist/ are they just tendencies/ why do I keep choosing these types of people to be with/ on high alert all the time and feeling enraged (still have to live with him…cannot afford to move yet).

    2. How positive feelings are not real/ how can I not detect the red flags/ why am I so desperate to be loved as to accept such poor treatment.

    3. Why a narcissist cannot or will not make changes that will benefit the relationship/ often times the person it will benefit the most is the goddamn narcissist and they still refuse.

    Thank you HG for putting this poll together.

    After 32 years of trying to be in decent relationships, the ever hopeful love enthusiast, bending over backwards, turning myself into a fuckin pretzel to meet other people’s needs …I have finally decided that relationships are not for me. Perhaps as much as a narcissist is incapable of having a healthy relationship, perhaps I am also unhealthy in taking the actions I do. My desperation to be loved and the belief that i need to be everything to another person only sets me up to continue to attract someone who will put these attributes to work.
    I don’t want to be abused anymore. I’m not interested in changing anymore. Acceptance of being alone although challenging some days, I can do.

    I wish the hate would go away. I wish the rage would dissipate. I wish I could go through one day without being on high alert. I wish I could stop feeling fearful and that the fear wouldn’t sometimes feel like self pity or self loathing. This is my work. Finding out how to extinguish these feelings….where do they come from, how can I protect myself from being used because of them, how to prevent having my feelings get used against me …etc etc

    Resent it sometimes though I may, I have to have a solid relationship with myself…know what I will & won’t tolerate and stick to that, find & keep very solid boundaries, put myself first & maintain a very healthy distance from excitement & the whirlwind endorphins that present themselves as “love”. It’s nothing more than an addiction. One hit and I can’t stop. I’m ready to allow anyone to abscond with what little I have and know of myself. That’s the part I play. It’s time for me to stop playing that part.

    Most of this I believe will take the rest of my life. And whatever time it takes…so long as I’m not repeating the same mistakes. .. I’m ready. Scared but ready. Time to go make a day of it again.

    I wish all of you success on your journey to recovering, discovering & accepting yourself.

    Warm energy

  26. Took me years of HG reading before I emotionally understood that having strong boundaries only _Filters Out_ the bad men.

    It won’t change them,

    they will only disappear, not treat me better.

    Internet is full of: “Be hardtoget, even players/casanovas will change for you”

  27. This man learned The Art of War when he was in special forces in Israel and now for years he has been a very successful person in the luxury jewelry business.in the US. He is like a covert in so many ways that he has a whole other life with friends when he goes back home. He always says he’s complex, very private, you aren’t even invited into his home even though he’s divorced. He always talks about loyalty, honesty and friendship then you can develop love. His actions usually don’t match his words. He will not go to things unless he is in charge and control. Through HG
    I have seen what a huge greater narc he is or at least a HUGE upper mid range he is. The red flags were there, but he got me to throw my logical thinking out the window and trauma bonded me with my emotional thinking. I miss the nice memories, the few we had. When I sit down and REALLY look at how he treated me, I am absolutely repulsed and disgusted when I even vision his face. He visited me last week just to visit after another silent treatment and he just wanted to be friends. I almost got sick to my stomach just listening to him talk about him. I refused to tell him what’s going on in my life. I just looked at his face and all I could see was the word NARCISSIST written across his face or should I say MASK!!!
    THANK YOU…. HG you truly are reinforcing what I need to do to keep his tendrils from wrapping back around me.🌹🥂🥰

  28. The thing I struggle with the most is that the person I thought I knew was just an illusion. I’ve known this person for ten years, we have talked a lot about many things, done things together, worked together, hung out together… 10 years of maintaining a mask, it only took him three weeks to take it off and reveal his cold emptiness. That was shocking. I still struggle to dissociate my “imaginary” friend from the reality.

  29. Why I cannot stop thinking about the narcissist.

    WHY. We spent SO little time together. The whole thing lasted under 2 months before I was shelved. It has been months since I’ve seen him in person. He is not a good guy – I KNEW he was a jerkoff going into this, regardless of my later narc “diagnosis.” He is not someone who I could have a satisfying relationship with from a partnership and intimacy standpoint. At the risk of sounding materialistic, he could also never provide the lifestyle I have come to expect. Apart from the showering of flattery and compliments and love bombs, it wasn’t as if he was spending all that time getting to KNOW me. I didn’t receive gifts or romantic, exotic dates. He is handsome but really not all that special. We didn’t even have sex!

    I have been practicing “real NC.” My logic defenses are so strong now and I understand and accept NPD for what it is. So why why why can I not stop thinking about him? I don’t long for him, don’t want to be with him, even if he turned on the golden period full force, I know too much now and could never give in again. I replay moments and conversations in my mind to line up the patterns and behaviors. I wonder why no one else sees it but me. I have fantasies of having a live conversation and sharing one moment of seriousness where we mutually acknowledge that this actually happened between us and it was fun while it lasted. And we laugh… “Remember the time?” No apologies, no blame placed. No “talking it out.” Just an acknowledgement that we did this with one another. It happened, and it stopped. It would be better than what I have now. An affair that just “went away,” while the participants still remained in contact, except in the most distant way. I still want that closure. Not answers – I have those already.

    I waste SO MUCH TIME thinking of him. It’s insane. I want this to go away.

      1. HG, I will think about that. I feel like this is therapist territory now though, is it not? What I mean is — I understand it all. You’ve taught me well! I understand the behavior, the reasons, etc. What I struggle with now is why I still give a f*ck about any of it.

        1. Joanne

          This is definitely HGs territory. This is one of the main things I struggled with, I thought about him all of the time, even though he is with someone new and I’m almost positive I was not the only one he was with when we were ( as I thought ) together, I didn’t want to let him go! But finally driving home one night I thought about all that had happened and I finally just had enough of wasting my time on someone who simply didn’t care if I was alive or dead. I have found that as each day goes by, I hardly ever think of him at all if ever. I also don’t think of him in the same way as I did before. Controlling my ET was a key to me getting to this point, and I couldn’t have done it without HGs help and knowledge. 🥰

          1. Thank you FM1T.
            I agree in that I would not have been able to get to the point I am at with HG (and the support of you all!) This stage I am at now is odd because I know all the answers, I don’t want him anymore, yet I can’t seem to stop thinking about him and narcissism etc. That’s why I wondered if it was related to my “core wound” or whatever.

          2. Joanne,

            We all have that one connection between us, that is being ensnared by a narcissist, but each situation is different. Some of us have had a narcissist in are lives since childhood, and then there are some who have only been sucked in perhaps only once or twice, I believe for each though it is taking one step at a time one day at a time. For me this is my most dangerous time, I’m over him and don’t want him back, in fact I’ve never been hoovered back in, the reason is because I always move from one to another. I never understood this about myself before HG explained it to me, for whatever reason it ended with the previous narcissist I would always be targeted by another one, being vulnerable and seeking that love and attention would find me falling for it time and time again. At this time knowing all of this I have to constantly be on alert so that I don’t follow that same pattern once again. For me it is not the ex narc that I think about or want, for me it is not allowing myself to go looking for another one to replace him with.

            You have come so far since you first started commenting here sweetie and I know you will get through this, I also know that if you are struggling you know where to find the answers. I hope you have a beautiful calm day. 😘🙃

          3. Thank you FM1T, and you have a beautiful day yourself! <3

            Btw how long are you away from the last narc? It's got to be a scary thing to feel like a constant target for them but thank goodness you have the awareness now and even though it is an ongoing struggle to guard yourself, the knowledge is such power!

          4. Four years in August. But I did have a small set back with a little narc sprinkle ( different narc )for awhile that ended last winter, it was nothing serious and of very little importance, however that is exactly what I have to be cautious of so that something like that does not happen again. 😘🌻

          5. FM1T, I’m flattered that you used my “narc sprinkles” reference. Such delicious little morsels!

          6. That they are MB, that they are. Lol.
            Now if I could only figure out away to keep them around for just a short time and not become attached, that would be perfect. 👌🙃😘

          7. FM1T, I’m right there with you on that girl! I thought I could control the attachment, but then there’s that pesky tipping point HG warns us about.

          8. MB as much as I would love to attempt it at times, I know that is something that is far to dangerous for me to do at this time. ( 🙄 yes HG, I was paying attention. ) 🙃

      2. I relate much to what Joanne says. I have had similar experiences.

        I don’t think a single day has passed that I have not thought of the narcs, at least briefly. I’m not always bothered by it, but they will pop in and out of my head and most of the time their presence is benign.

        HG, could a narc ever spend years still thinking of an empath if not in this manner then some other manner?

        1. No. A victim can pop into the mind of a narcissist as an intrusive thought and thus there is a Hoover Trigger, hence there is always a risk of a hoover. We do not think on our victims each and every day for an extensive period of time.

          1. Thanks for the explanation, HG. I figured as much.

            My reason for asking was that I just wondered if they ever lamented over ‘old fuel’ once current fuel goes stale.

          2. Not in such an obvious sense, of course as part of triangulation you will be compared to old appliances “Oh Sarah would never moan like you do.” or “Trisha always took such pride in her appearance.”

    1. I understand how you feel Joanne, the thinking about them constantly is insanely exhausting. And I keep telling myself the same thing “stop! It’s over ! Get over it !” And that does not help haha.

      I think the narc for me was filling my own void in life… filling up my mundane routine. I did sleep
      With mine and I miss the sex the most. But not enough I’d damage my own self worth for it.

      Perhaps the fact you didn’t sleep with him and you didn’t get a chance to experience that much time with him is contributing to your continued curiosity? It’s completely natural you’d crave the intimacy. You are after all… human.

      Joanne, is there something in your life you wish to achieve or a passion project you’d like to start? I ask because perhaps what would help would be a change of focus to something more productive and fulfilling for you? Instead of focusing on the narc start thinking about what it is you’re missing. What you’d like to do… for you. Being married with children can often make women forget they matter too.

      I know for me the whole thing put me on a different path. And I keep telling myself If I focus on that… in time… these god awful memories and cravings will disappear.

      1. Thank you, empath007. Your suggestion makes a lot of sense. I have read that the best way to get rid of old memories is to “record over them” which also is good advice. I have a nice life and a wonderful family. I work and I am very active physically. There is really not much I don’t do for myself. I wish there was a passion or some goal that I wished to chase right now, but at the risk of sounding boring lol, there really isn’t! But the “void” is a real thing. I suppose that while I don’t really miss “him” – the high that he brought during that short time really filled the void in my quiet/calm life. I really hope this all fades soon.

        1. That’s so understandable and relatable that the flattery from this new person would “spice things up” so to speak. A lot of what you’re feeling is very normal but married men and women don’t want to talk about it because the subject is still considered “taboo” in a lot of ways.

          At least here gives you a place to talk about it where you feel safe.

          Honestly the fact that your affair was so short and mostly just emotional… says a lot about you and your character. As empaths we tend to be so concerned with doing the right things all the time when our dark sides creep in we tend to shove them way down and ignore them… and let’s face it that’s for good reason… being with a narcissits may feel somewhat exciting but it certainly isn’t healthy. OR beneficial to us at all.

          But still we have to recognize that we are also human and have desires. Maybe spice things up with the hubby! Fanatasize about the narc while doing it if that’s what is takes! Haha.

          Time heals all wounds. I’m right there with you waiting for the day the very thought of thinking about him totally bores me haha.

        2. Joanne , at the risk of sounding harsh, I have lately came to wonder if I am not addicted to my thoughts about the Narc. I used to be very co-dependent and addicted to my Narc and now I feel I am addicted to my thoughts. Although I hate thinking about him , at the same time , in my inner thoughts and dialogues, I have the upper hand and I am always right.
          It may not be applicable to you, but I have entertained that thought because sometimes I get annoyed when people force interactions on me that interrupts my thoughts about the Narc. At the same time – I keep telling myself … how can I best use this time instead of thinking about the Narc ?
          The good news is that I am now able to read novels at night – so maybe I am slowly shifting my obsessive thoughts patterns slowly slowly …

          1. You are addicted to narcissists, thinking about the narcissist is one way of feeding the addiction.

          2. Omj
            That’s not harsh at all and feels very familiar! I am not codependent, but I was definitely addicted to him and am addicted to these thoughts. It’s funny you mention being annoyed at someone interrupting the thoughts because I’ve found myself feeling that way too! Luckily, it hasn’t been debilitating enough to stop me living my life but it is a distraction and a poor use of my mental energy. It’s great that you’re able to read novels again! That’s actually huge because any time I have tried, my thoughts wander again. The only thing that will keep my focus is narc related – whether one of HGs books, etc OR the list of narc/psychopathy related memoirs I have read. It helps with my understanding and strengthening my logic but at this point it’s getting ridiculous.

          3. OMJ:

            One of the things I came to learn was that I loved having the narc to blame for why I was sad. Whenever I felt depressed or unhappy, I could always attribute it to him.

            “If only he would be nicer then I would feel better.”

            Now that I have been NC for many years, I do not have the luxury of blaming him for what is missing in me. He is gone. It’s not his fault anymore. I have only myself to blame for any unhappiness I feel.

            We focus on the narc and our thoughts about the narc b/c it keeps the focus off of ourselves. Once they are gone, we are left with only ourselves. And it can be hard to examine ourselves. Just ask a narc who refuses to do it.

            The Woody Allen film ‘Another Woman’ is one of my faves and is about a woman who reaches 50 and comes to examine her life and how she treats others. In an interview, when Allen was asked if he ever did the same, he said, ‘I have never examined my life!’

            It’s hard.

          4. I agree so much – all the time we spend thinking about the Narc and in ET state – we are just postponing taking care of ourselves and ultimately starting projects and other life endeavors.

    2. Joanna, I’m sorry you’re struggling. Good for you not having sex with him though. I think that sex makes the connection that much more difficult to break. Even if the sex isn’t off-the-charts phenomenal (tho he likes to think it is), it still contributes to the emotional bond. For me. You’re the better one for not having that. I understand feeling that you waste time thinking of him. We all do. Hopefully, he’ll fade for you in due time. Stay strong.

      1. Kelly
        I am so glad we didn’t have sex! I can count on one hand the number of partners I’ve had in my life. Sex is just not something I can take casually. If we crossed that line, there’s no telling what state I would be in 🙁

        1. Joanne, if your sex was as sad as my experience you wouldn’t be much worse than now, hahaha. But yes I’m also glad we didn’t get to go all the way.

          1. SP
            Oh, our one encounter was sad and awkward enough! Thinking about how unsexy the whole thing was makes me laugh though.

          2. Mine was sexy. I mean the five minutes it lasted were unforgettable haha.

        2. I’m saying a lot today so if I need to stay in my own lane you just ignore me or tell me to do so Joanne…

          I too have had very few sexual partners (can count on one hand also) Before the narc… sadly, I didn’t even know I liked sex because I hadn’t been with a man who knew what buttons to push so to speak.

          I waited an insanely long time before I slept with the narc. I always wait it’s what I do because I need to feel connected to someone. And I will say… yes… it’s felt much harder to get over because of that.

          But I will also say, it’s the first time in my life I enjoyed sex, was able to work out the awkwardness with a partner and have it go from boring to mind blowing.
          And I felt like a whole new woman being able to communicate my needs like that and have them
          Met.

          Now. This was sex without love which was devastating to me but it taught me a lot about myself.

          This is all to say…. maybe you’re hiding your desire that you did actually want to explore
          With someone else?? Maybe you are curious about being with him that way and that’s part of
          The reason you can’t let
          It go.

          If I’m way off I apologize. It’s no business of mine. But if that’s the case I would encourage you to explore some different things with your husband,
          In what’s a long lasting, trusting relationship.

          1. empath007
            Please do not apologize! You have no idea how much it means to me to be able to share experiences with others who understand and can relate! Especially with the sex thing. I imagine that it was a breakthrough for you – which is good – but of course it strengthens the connection and ultimately the feelings of vulnerability, loss and exposure/openness in the aftermath. The upside, hopefully, is that it helped you to understand your own needs and desires to be explored with a good, loving partner.

            In my marriage, we have a healthy sexual relationship. It’s been 20 years…that’s a long time. I think in my case, I was addicted to how the narc made me feel, the newness of it, more than a sexual attraction. He is very handsome, and has been so his whole life. There was an attraction, but nothing that would’ve caused me to jeopardize my marriage. It wasn’t until he love bombed me into oblivion and convinced me that he had been so hurt by his exwife that the physical attraction increased. I wanted to love his hurt away. So stupid. And strangely enough, when I would envision these sexual scenarios in my mind, they were almost pathetic, with him prematurely finishing, and me reassuring him it was okay. I think that was owing to the “victimization” that he had me convinced of.

            You’d mentioned in your other comment about spicing things up with my hubby, and using my narc fantasies to help with that. That did work for some time, but not any more. Things that have been seen cannot be unseen – meaning now that I know what he is, now that I know how he views sex – my brain and body just won’t allow it. That’s what makes this all the more frustrating. I think of him all the time, but not in any kind of way that could even be deemed as “useful!”

    3. I also knew my LMR was a piece of shit . I was rebounding off my disengagement from my MMR when I took up with the LMR. He was a filler that I ended up on and off with for a few years.
      Even tho I knew the LMR was a piece of shit and didn’t expect much from him- his level of malice and abuse still somehow shocked me. For a while. It seems to be that an entanglement (even a brief one) does some sort of psychic/energetic damage to an empath, and this is the reason it changes us forever. HG explains this with The Mixture but I’d also love some further insight from his perspective on this phenomenon

      1. WokeAF
        I think in my case I didn’t care so much about how much of a jerk I knew him to be. I already have a husband, I didn’t need him to be Prince Charming. But what he did was trick me into thinking that the jerkiness was some rough exterior and that the sweet, gentle, soft side was who he really was. All part of his seduction until he couldn’t be bothered with the mask anymore.

        You are right though, I’ve read about the mixture and maybe I need to revisit that. HG maybe we need a separate book to deep dive into it, or break it out into scenarios. It almost feels like some witchcraft shit that can’t be lifted without a shaman or something!

  30. “Why you cannot stop thinking about the narcissist.”

    I struggle with understanding emotional thinking. Before HG, I was ignorant to being ensnared by narcissists and didn’t know there was even a dynamic taking place so it makes sense that my ET was so rampant back then. I was Don Quixote charging windmills thinking I was pursuing true love.

    But it’s especially frustrating that my ET continues to rear its ugly head even after HG has explained the dynamic. HG has told us how our narcs see the world and why we do what we do. I have the best information in the world yet I cannot destroy the emotional thinking.

    Why do I have emotional thinking? What purpose does it serve other than wanting to lead us to a path of despair and devastation? It’s all to serve an addiction that I don’t want anymore.

  31. I struggle with something different: how is it possible for someone to be so cold and empty to the core??? I still struggle with this, in spite of having lots of narcissistic traits myself. I mean, I get to see a glimpse of getting it when I judge how I treat people I don’t care or need at all (which is a lot of people, because I am picky and elitist and a snob). So I somehow do understand. But still. How can someone expect to be loved and accepted when he/she offers so little in return. Any normal person would toss them out after being treated poorly. That should prompt some inner search. It never happens.
    In my mind it should be fairly easy for the narcissist to understand he/she creates his own misery. That should prompt change, at least after a series of failures. Again, it never happens. They chose to be alone and miserable and unfulfilled and live like this a life that otherwise could be better. They’re not stupid (well, not all of them) but they keep finding fault to anyone and everything instead of taking a good look at themselves. From rage to self pity and faking a victim out of themselves, they are never ever able to see what they do. If you don’t call someone for a long time, why would you expect to be welcomed back when you do it only for your selfish needs? If you don’t give, why would you expect to be given? It is very simple yet they don’t get it. They want the impossible: to be jerks and also be loved by those they treat like garbage. They are not 3 years old anymore. It beats me how they can be so inconsiderate. Only idiots stay by their side in the end, the rest goes away. Idiots or people with a huge deficit of self esteem, that’s their public.

    1. “Idiots or people with a huge deficit of self esteem, that’s their public.” I don’t know if that’s true for all narcs, but that’s definitely the case with mine. That’s his public. I divide them into: newly arrived fans who have no idea yet / idiots / people who have the charisma of a wet sock and believe they look cool by being friends with him.

      1. SP
        I want to believe this is the case with mine, too. I am just not close enough to his circle to be sure. But lol @ “newly arrived fans” – so accurate 🙄🙄

    2. I was just thinking today how id like to spend fifteen minutes – no more- in the narc worldview. No empathy, no sense of inner self, all of it. Just fifteen minutes alone in an open field where I can’t hurt anyone. But I’d want to experience it low on fuel – bc I fear the utter relief of not having empathy or concern for others, put together with being well fuelled- might be more addictive than crack.

      1. Oh come now, at least experience it at someone else’s wedding reception and have some fun!

        1. Haha no way ! A)I’m in recovery so fuck being around drunk ppl b) I hate the idea of marriage and especially weddings bleah

    3. THEYRE NOT CHOOSING!!!! It’s WHO. THEY. ARRRRRRRE.

      Just as we aren’t choosing our gender, our hair colour, or to feel empathy.

      1. WokeAF

        Re: choosing behaviour

        Many still struggle to grasp that or outright reject it about the narc but then use the reasoning that they themselves can’t just turn off their empathy in order to GOSO. Ironic.

    4. Q & SP
      I definitely think self esteem is a huge part of who they attract and why those people stick around. It is obvious that his exwife and old girlfriend (the only supplies I have had “exposure” to) have very, very low self esteem. I am convinced neither of those two have any idea of what he really is.

  32. For me the hardest struggles are the ilusion of the seduction and that the feelings were not real. It is shocking to discover that you can be 10/10 in the look department, you are open and honest person , you do your best in a relationship- being loving, caring, supportive, not clingy, not dull and still there are people who prey on your soul and body. People who brutally play with your heart and with monstrous coldness try to destroy you emotionally. How the narcs can have a good night sleep purposefully destroying other human beings is beyond to comprehend and accept.

    About sex as a method of obtaining fuel – how a normal physiological need, the sacred need of intimacy is used in such a cruel way to gain control is a struggle to comprehend ( I struggle). How you can be so closed to another person, how you throw the intimacy ( i am excluding one night stands) , how you can lay peacefully in someone’s arms , how you can whisper sweet words in their ears and in the same time your brain recklessly discard all positive feelings. How your mask doesn’t break; how the sensuality is false. I know some empaths like me can sense, can feel the false intimacy no matter how sensual the narcissist can pretend to be; simply the negative drain could be feel in even in physical level if you are super empath. But my heart cries for all victims of the narcs who uses their greatest weapon , sex to lure and pin the victims.

    1. Claire: There is the possibility that some instinctive parts of the intimacy was real in your case, even if it were a small percentage of the interaction . And more so for a male Narcissist, like in your entanglement, than with a female narc entangled with a male partner, for obvious biological reasons. I once asked HG if he could perform with any female no matter what she was like and no matter what she looked like, and he said, no. And, he is a UGEN. So there is that, Claire.

      1. PSE
        I once asked HG if he could perform with any female no matter what she was like and no matter what she looked like, and he said, no.” There is a strange comfort in that…

        1. My narc was proposed sex by a common colleague (she’s single and lives her life in a liberal manner without caring about what others think). I know he refused to because she told me later. I asked him why he rejected her, if he was trying to have an affair with me it was obvious he didn’t care about being married. He answered he liked me, not her. I also find comfort in that BUT I SHOULDN’T!! ET go away, go away.

        2. Joanne: And I remember that I had to pull teeth, so to speak, to get that answer from HG. I am sure he still could if he really needed to, but I still admired that there is some natural honesty in his male body.

          1. PSE
            Well, given what we know, I think we still all want to feel like we are more than just a regular fuel pump. We want to feel like we are at least a sparkly, attractive pump. Not just any old dinged up aluminum tank.

          2. Exactly Joanne. From now on, don’t call me Sweetest Perfection; instead, you can use Sparkly Pump.

          1. Sorry: EDIT;
            I couldn’t get wet with a 200 yr old.

            Nor is it a compliment that I probably could get wet woth anyone who’s under 70 and can lick a clit. Lol

            Does that make sense?

          2. WokeAF
            lol it is pretty early here so I am confused. Are you saying that you could get turned on by anyone under 70 as long as they knew what to do?

            I think in this particular context we are referring more to an ongoing seduction by a narc, and their less-likelihood to spend that energy on someone who’s not physically attractive. And I think a lot of that is driven by our desire to feel more special than just “fuel” that can be extracted from anyone.

        3. Joanne

          Didn’t HG say that looks were not that important as long as the prime aims were being met? So now I’m confused? 🙃

          1. Physical appearance is one factor amongst many (see Sitting Target) and its level of importance varies with regard to the school and cadre of narcissist.

          2. FM1T
            Yes, and SATN goes into this in great detail. I interpreted PSE’s described scenario to be more of a narc relationship versus plain old sex for fuel’s sake. For instance, I don’t see my narc putting effort and energy and time into seducing someone who is unattractive. I just do not. Nor do I imagine HG doing so. I think it’s a case by case thing depending on school and cadre of narc.

          3. Joanne

            I suppose it also depends on how low there fuel supply is, or perhaps a disturbance in there fuel matrix also. Perhaps not putting a lot of effort into yes, I could not see someone of HGs standard doing that, but if offered up quite easily I’m sure fuel is fuel where ever they get it from.
            I do believe as you say not as a I PPS, but perhaps as a DLS or just a one night stand.

      2. You are right, PrincessSuperEmpath:). Maybe he was somehow connected but I was the one who was not able to connect . Let me explain – I had enough partners to know what a good sex is. I love sex. But I also have the strange quality to sense and physically feel a bad energy. So when the intercourse is purely on a physical level sometimes I feel being drained , yes , a strange feeling in the abdominal area. And despite reaching the climax, after certain time I feel drained and that something is missing, literally. While in a normal relationship I feel good ( during and after) with every part of my body, feel not only the bliss but an increased energy. Like in my last relationship before meeting the second narcs who I was involved with – the sex was amazing. I am sure all the narcs are energy vampires so no mater how hard they try to perform in the bedroom, I can’t be hooked after the deed is done. I have some narcs traits but I would never use sex to reach any goal .

        1. Claire: You of course were always probably giving more than you received, and that would drain you. And it is all a bit complex, I am sure. I guess we all just have to be more careful, and you can make your own goals in all arenas more towards your personality now. It is easy to discuss on here, but sex is viewed so differently in different regions and decades. For some it is a sport. Like gymnastics or something. For some others it is just physical release. For some it is an act of love. For some it is a transaction. For some it is about the other person. For some, it is just about themselves. For some it is for entrapment. For some, it is for offspring. And the list never ends. Where I grew up, and when I grew up, with a lot of southern culture, women took great pride largely in trying to make sure their men were sexually happy. And the women boasted about how satisfying they were to their men. And that is what made the women happy. Was all that boasting true? Who knows. But, that was the normal way that I heard about it growing up. These days and especially in cities, I do not know what is the general reason that people have sex, any longer. Beyond just the biological urge. It would be some information to try to drag out of a potential intimate partner, I think. And even something to investigate more with ones present partner in a subtle way to make it a more enjoyable experience, perhaps. And to change things up a bit willingly and for fun, I would think. The way I personally feel and I still feel this way is: if the 2 people can pull it off successfully, Hooray!!! Well Done! It is as simple as that to me. And, I think I will not complicate or change this way that I think. And over complicate it. I have enough complications to add any more, if I can help it. hahaha.

    2. Claire
      I feel this too. Or, I *felt* it, I should say. I struggled with these things earlier on. Granted I am sure my situation was not as intense as yours, it still took me a long time to come to understand what was behind all of that.

      1. My problem, Joanne is that I am very sensual and for me the sex could be dealbreaker in a relationship☺️. I just replied to PrincessSuperEmpath how I sense if it is really a good one or just a good performance by the great actor Mr Narcs . I am straight so I cannot comment about Ms Narcs, lol:)

        1. Claire
          It’s actually a gift versus a problem, I think, to be able to detect the genuineness (or lack thereof) in a sexual connection. How a narc is able to just perform the act, while pretending to be sensual or connected, is really also beyond me.

          1. Joanne
            Actors have the ability to make it seem real for us on the screen and narcs are all actors.

          2. NA, yes but there are actors and actors. Like I have said before, mine will not be nominated to an Academy award anytime soon.

          3. NA
            Yes, I understand the acting part and mine put on a really good act (although not so good when it came to the intimacy scenes). I’m just saying the whole acting thing in general – the fact that none of it is really real, is beyond me (from my world view).

  33. Dearest HG: For me it was the power, machinations and influence of the applicable lieutenants and flying monkeys and the coterie.

  34. The thing that i struggled the most is, that regardless the fewer visits, no physical intimicy, feeling that his distance is ever increasing, and so the rage…
    i cannot understand why the love bombing it is even more intense, and so the declarations of love with grandiose promises!!!!

    It doesn’t make sense! And is driving me insane.

  35. Narcissists refusing to accept that they are victims of other narcissists.

    Even though MRN and LNs do not know about personality disorders and NPD, they do know what they do when they are manipulating other people. They want to know about your vulnerabilities to attack them at a later stage. They think about what kind of manipulation will be most effective against their victims.
    Also, they can recognize when other people are being taken advantage of, abused or manipulated by narcissists.

    However, I struggle to understand why some narcissists (not all) are in denial when they become victims of narcissists *themselves*.

    These MRNs do not want to listen when I let them know that they are being manipulated or taken advantage of by other narcissists.
    I avoid mentioning the word ‘narcissism’, I do not use any psychology term – I speak about what is being done to them and show them some evidence to prove that some part of their lives is/could be ruined by another individual.

    This has happened to me when I warned different MRNs. They became anxious and nervous. They asked me to stop and told me they did not want to hear about it anymore. Yet, one of them had his/her credit score ruined, a second one was first demoted at work and then he/she was never able to work on his/her field anymore and a third one lost a considerable amount of money (almost 7-digit). These were three examples of many others.

    1. What happens in these cases is that the narcissist who is conning the other narcissist is appealing to their sense of grandiose. Just the same way empaths are manipulated by appealing to our emotional side. The narcissits understands what the other narc wants to see and hear… they will make sure the other narc feels powerful.

      Their grandiose thinking actually works against them in financial scams because they truly believe they are destined for greatness, that this promise of greatness is true for them and that this other narc can see it clearly…. and you… the meere mortal warning them… can not. You are jealous and petty of their precieved “success” as this other narc sees their brilliance at its full potential.

      It took me a long time to understand that too and peice that together… but that’s how they do it to each other. The more intelligent narcs know which side to appeal too and use it. Just the same way they would with us. And this is good.. just goes to prove anyone is susceptible.

      1. Hi empath007…great post! Ive seen this in the workplace and with narc narc coupled which ive met many who both seem to be narcs.
        Youre right tho in the workplace ive people in upper positions who were narcs manipulate lower level narcs to do their dirty work. They know what they are but the lessers dont and gobble up the praise from the higher narcs. They have no idea theyre being played like a fiddle and owned. Of course there are perks and they do get promotions etc they however are at the upper narcs beck and call and have to be in their back pocket at all times. Its a codependant situation and many enjoy the position.

      2. Hello empath007,
        So true what you wrote about narcissists conning other narcissists and taking advantage of their sense of grandiosity. I totally agree with you.

        However, as you can see from my examples, I was speaking about something else. It was about Ns being punished through malignant hoovers and such by another narcissist (usually, malicious envy as motivation to ruin or destroy others) and not wanting to hear about it and denying what is being done to them.

        I understand narcissists will not want to admit to being victimized. I do not expect them to agree.
        I struggle to understand why they do not take it seriously (for themselves, not for me) and do something to protect themselves, once they have the information and know they are being punished by a cruel, vindictive narcissist.

        Some narcissists told me about what other narcissists were doing to me and/or to family members behind my back. Even though I did not know if it was true, I took it seriously and did my homework. It turned out it was true and I did something to protect myself/my loved ones. I consider myself lucky they warned me before it was too late.

  36. Both my ULN and the MMRN both seem to know what they are but will not accept it. The Lesser heard me say the word Narcissist once and he assumed I was talking about him. “Oh thanks a lot!” He said…. Their supposed lack of insight confuses me but I’ll take HG’s word for it and not waste my energy.

    The fact that I can’t fucking forget the damn Narcs is crazymaking. Today I am 8 months no contact with the MMRN and I still think about him all day long. This is the second time I’ve been no contact for 8 months before he knocked on my window being pitiful and I took him back. The last thing I ever expected of myself. For fucks sake….it never ends the struggle is ongoing.

    Lastly, I struggle to comprehend that the narcissists don’t feel any positive feelings at all. Their fondness for me and their “happiness” around me seemed genuine. Meh. I can’t be mad at them either because it’s punishment enough not to experience happiness.

    1. Why do so many of us think we can forget it all??? That can not be the main goal. These people were real and we had feelings for them. Honest feelings. And if we loved them, true love is permanent. If it does go away, it was just infatuation. We just have to restrain the memory to a non-dangerous level. And not confuse memory with ruminating. We have to battle ruminating, until we have pinned it down to be subservient to our logical thinking. We are not in necessity of a lobotomy. We are not Narcissists. Narcissists learn from us to pretend to remember events and activities that the Narcissists have absolutely no interest in. So remember, memory is part of us, but, in safe dosages. And speaking of not forgetting, it is the Narcissists that truly do not forget! Forever checking the shelf to see whom they can Hoover until the day we or they die. How about that? They have the memory problem! Not us. We beat ourselves up over things we should not and neglect things we should beat ourselves up over. Myself included, of course. Baby steps, before we throw the baby (our humanity) away with the bath water. Remember in proportion, that is all. And battle ruminating. To remember is human. Ask Narcissists about memory. Now, that is memory. The memory of a Narcissist!

      1. One of human kind’s weaknesses is a preoccupation with matters past. They are the past and they are done. Move forward.

        1. Dearest HG: So true. We can learn from Narcissists to not let the past destroy us as much as we do. And to not live in the past, as strongly as we do. But, we empaths and normals should never be ashamed for having feelings and even love for the people that are and have been in our lives. Love is good. We just have to work on compartmentalizing the memories better, when it is time to let them go and it is time for us to move on, and we are doing so, day by day as we grow.

          1. I agree. I think we should reflect on the past to learn the lessons and then move forward. Narcs don’t do that, they just move compulsively. Empaths dwell too much in the past and get stuck. It’s a matter of balance, IMO.

          2. Why focus on the past? It is done. You cannot change it. Move forward. It is a redundant act to keep revisiting something you already know about and if you keep going back in an attempt to understand this tells you that you are not able to understand (because you keep going back and keep asking the same questions) so you need to say to yourself
            “The fact I keep asking means I am not yet at the point of being able to understand. Therefore I must stop doing this, as it is a form of engagement. I must stop, impose no contact and in a few months’ time, if I revisit I will be able to apply the understanding, but I cannot do this now.”

          3. I agree with you, HG. In the case of an entanglement with a narcissist, the best thing an empath can do is stop engaging with the narc by thinking about what happened and just move on. Once the ET is low, she may go back and learn the lesson (lack of boundaries, low self esteem, etc). I was thinking in broader terms when I wrote my comment because you had mentioned human kind in your previous comment. I think humans reflect and learn. We have the capacity to remember things so we can avoid dangerous experiences and thus survive. I guess it is a matter of logical reflection on the past versus emotional reflection of it. The first one results in lessons learned, the second is just an emotional swamp.
            It’s true that empaths have the tendency to get stuck in the past and suffer by holding on to useless memories, while narcissists never stop to reflect, they just move on because they need to keep gathering fuel to survive. Both extremes are not good, IMO.

          4. Noted and I agree with you with reference to certain other matters outside of the issue of narcissistic entanglement.

          5. Agree to reflection once removed a few degrees in order to prevent reoccurrence. I think HG is referring to dwelling and preventing forward motion.

  37. The cycle – the roller coaster is the hardest.
    Now I am self shelved and happy. I keep contact to a minimum – because of business obligation.
    The lies too are hard because they never end, never and they become bigger and almost caricatural over time .
    The edge – never being comfortable in the relation- is hard.
    But the fact that they will never change is what is the hardest because of emotional thinking pushing us to believe they will each time the cycle starts again.

  38. I feel I do, now, after damn near 2 years of studying narcissism and 1.5 years after finding, consulting with You a couple of times, and studying night after night after night ,for TWO YEARS – your videos on repeat, re reading your posts..reading other works etc – I DO understand all of the above. I get it. I get it more and more.
    HOWEVER there ARE some topics I’d love further clarification and to hear what you have to say on so in the interest of that I voted:

    -The positive feelings for me were not real
    ( for who? Me? The narc? I know what positive feelings are . He sure enjoys himself. How are they not “real” other than for him they are fuel and for me it’s feelings for a ghost? They feel good .How are they not real?)

    -Why other ppl don’t understand what narcissism is.
    (Dear God help me I want to share them. Oh, I know WHY. Because it’s a whole shift in perception to accommodate what seems as outlandish as suddenly believing in leprechauns- except there’s evidence all around them, WHY IS IT so difficult for so many to stop projecting their own goodness where it doesn’t exist? More importantly- WHY ARE THEY SO STUBBORN in resisting the obvious? I wasn’t. It hit home right quick. I get it. There’s a battle of “angels and demons” playing out on the world stage and it’s bloody obvious so HOWWWW is it not seen?

    -Why it hurts so much post escape/discard
    (I get the lovesex addiction. I get that I fell for myself. I get that I fell for a ghost. I get that the intensity is warped , or even manufactured. It’s The Mixture im curious about. Wtf IS that shit?! He told me tonight im “a part of” him. I balked bc it might as well have been right out of one of your videos. I almost responded “you mean you want to subsume me”. The Mixture, the whole experience is like a strange psychic phenomenon- that I know right now changed me forever. So I’d like to hear more on that.

    I’d also like further clarification on;

    -MR behaviour . Particularly UMR.
    The false contrition and cognitive empathy trips me up STILL. I GET it, but I have trouble catching it.

    -The Collapsed Narcissist (if such a thing exists)

    – ADDICTS vs Narcs with addictions (similar behaviour)

    -Geyser & Contagion empathic behaviour

    ***-FEMALE narcissist’s behaviour in ALL the schools***.

    -Distinguishing between normals , and empathic ppl who aren’t empaths

    Thank youuuuu you are the best teacher I’ve ever had . Besides life.

      1. Dearest HG: Good to read. It is just breathtaking that there is much more than all of this. As an aside, I am enjoying the Big Little Lies assessment, tremendously. I also love your article of the breakdown of the: *. Utterly superb. 🙂

      1. I just wanted to mention that this is an elegant image, putting aside the nature of it. I’m just talking about the rich colors, and the contrasting elements. It reminds me of smooth Jazz music, a dark velvet evening, or a rich, creamy truffle. It is almost liquid-like in its appearance. I cannot have it, though, because it belongs to you.

        1. Tamara. And dangerous, a bit. I am sure he will give some portion of that creamy truffle, if he wants.

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath,

            It’s soooo tempting, but the resulting toothache might not be a pleasant aftermath. I must turn away, and run, though, because the temptation is really too much!

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