Big Little Lies : Renata Klein
It’s time for Renata Klein to go under the Tudorscope, but prior to that happening, let’s hear from you?
Narcissistic but not a narcissist? Super Empath? Middle Mid Range Narcissist?
Vote below and argue your case in the comments, there have been some excellent submissions so far, let’s see how you fare with Renata?
The polls remain open on Ed, Celeste, Bonnie and Nathan also.
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39 thoughts on “Big Little Lies : Renata Klein”
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My choice is Narcissistic but not a Narcissist! It was a hard one
Ok sorry my final answer is Super Empath. I need my answers to be perfect. I thought it wasn’t empathetic to act hysterical asking her 6yo who bullied her. But I think she is a Super Empath (Geyser).
I think my mum is a Geyser Super Empath. Extremely narcissist and extremely empathic
Although Renata does not seem to have any IEE and has strong narcissistic traits (she feels superior to others, has a lack of consideration for other people, she does not want to lose, highly sensitive to criticism, she believes others envy her) she has showed other behaviours which are not common among narcissists, unless they get something from it.
Renata does care about her daughter Amabella. She did not invite Ziggy to Amabella’s birthday party because she believed what her daughter had told her about Ziggy (He had choked her.) She was protecting her daughter from him.
When she realized that not inviting Ziggy was a mistake because her daughter wanted to see Chloe on her birthday, she called Madeline to deal with this conflict in a constructive way.
Renata also told her daughter she should never allow other people to bully her, to speak up and that she had to learn to do that herself. A narcissist mother does not care about what happens to her daughter (“It is your fault, deal with it”.)
Although Renata is intelligent, highly-successful and well-off, her assets were commingled. Also, she seemed to be unaware about her husband’s illegal deals. If Renata were an UMRN or a GN, she would have protected her assets and would have learnt about Gordon’s activities and prevented him from involving her in financial fraud.
She did not know about Gordon and their nanny either. She was totally unaware of Gordon’s dark side when she married him.
Although she did not get along with Madeline and other women in the community, she showed solidarity and protected Bonnie.
I voted Renata is a Normal.
A case with some force EB, is it the right outcome? Find out next week.
‘Some’ force only? This suspense is killing me.
A hahaha I knew it! Fuckin Gordon! Lmao !! I was on the fence that he lost all their $$ but seemed ok…. or was he gonna reveal more narc traits?
Aaaaaan of course he banged the nanny.
Ugh. Ok now so even more so I think Renata is a Super Empath , and she seems like a geyser still to me
Gordon has gotta be an UMR – I’ve never met one that I know of but he’s not a lesser or a greater , he’s not LMR
I’m not seeing the MMR poor me too much
Genuine empathy for letting the nanny go
Renata is a successful and ambitious high level executive with lots of energy; she is aggressive and direct and makes good on her threat to close down production of Avenue Q, even though the show still goes on, she still carried out her threat.
Seduction Hoover: Renata calls Maddie and admits she was wrong to exclude Ziggy and tries to incentivize Madeline to cancel Disney on Ice with promises of a sleepover weekend trip to Disneyland all expenses paid, VIP passes, the works and back stage passes to Frozen on Ice.
Madeline refuses (control and challenge fuel): Yeah, it’s not gonna work.
Renata (Twin Lines of defence is deployed): I’ll even get Snow White to sit on your husband’s face, maybe Dumbo can take a squat on yours. You’re dead in this town as is your fucking puppet show. (Renata then hurls her phone across the pool; Fury)
Amabella’s birthday party is geared more towards the adults than the children: the music, the drinks, the weed, the dancing and the Frozen Gift Bags were way over the top!!! That party was a fuel fest bedighted with entitlement, hedonism, wealth and superiority.
Renata is a UMRN and that is how I am voting.
Narcissistic not narcissist.
She retaliated to prevent a play only because she wasn’t supported for her choice of who she thought was abusing her daughter in school. She seems to be over protective of her kid and feels bad if she doesn’t give her kid everything. Very high strung.
to me Renata is narcissistic but not a narcissist, she is independend, she earnd eveything by herself, she may appear as a bitch but I think maybe her experiences from past and people she work with made her like that, she get angry when things don’t go as she wants ( her daughter’s b day party vs Frozen on ice thing) she throws her phone into the pool, calling names says she could kill somenoe but she is also a good and loving mother, even when her conclusion are wrong (about Jane ‘s son not being the abuser) she can say she was wrong and say sorry
Hi elke…i agree there was no motivator at all for renata to accept janes apology and consider it could be another child. I think she was so freaked out over the abuse that she picked the new kid and lashed out. In a way i think jane is a contagion bc she sensed and could relate to how renata felt based on her own situation of having been raped.
Renata is able to self reflect and admit having been wrong and apologise! Someone with npd could not do all that except maybe a greater acting it but there would have to be good reason to do so and there isnt in this case other than doing whats right.
UMR. There are moments when she seems empathic. I believe this is because she is female, and what is expected to be “liked”.
If im mistaken and she’s NOT a super empath, my 2nd guess would be narcissistic but not a narc.
Narc women don’t have friends. Not real ones. Super empaths, with narc traits, DO but they’re a bit exhausting (mmm, and I think Renata) I suspect Mmm and Renata clashed precisely bc they’re both supers. If Mmm was a narc she wouldn’t be able to sustain a long term friendship , like w Celeste. Now Renata- she’s only just been brought into the gold bc of circumstances, so I’d need further evidence of being able to maintain the friendships to be totally sure, but from certain things she said “they lie. They cheat. Still we stay” for example – lead me to believe she’s not a narc but a super E
ALSO – Gordon lost “her” money that she worked for- yet she said “at least we’re not homeless” or something like that- she seems like even tho she’s gonna resent the shit outta him and make him pay- she’s showing a degree of acceptance of the situation and making the best of it.
To me that shows inner growth which narcs don’t really DO
I voted MMRN although she could pass as a ULN as well. Renata is the perpetual victim nothing is ever her fault, everyone is mean to her and doesn’t give her the recognition she thinks she deserves. Her temper is explosive and vile. She only values herself in terms of her material possessions without it and her money she is a nobody and she is afraid of that, very insecure. She will never take responsibility for the hurt she causes except her daughter and that will eventually change as she grows up.
_ She fakes happiness for others.
_ She fakes empathy, the only time she demonstrates it is when she has an audience
_ She seems powerful but lacks charm/intelligence to gain admiration from Lieutenant’s to do her bidding because of her foul temper meaning she loses a lot of her power struggles.
In conclusion, she swings between Lesser & Mid-Range Narcissism.
I can’t wait for H.G. Tudor’s analysis.
Renata….my favorite character …not lol i do however appreciate her in the show bc it takes all kind to make the world interesting. Ive met many renatas in my life and they are not the type i gravitate towards. Honestly i dont think anyone could be any type of friend with her except either a highly narcissistic person or a narc themselves. That being said i voted narcissistic but not a narc.
At first i thought her to be a narc given her personality but further into season 1 you see true empathy towards her daughter. It wasnt just about her daughters party being a hit granted some of it was but she was very concerned about her daughters feelings and that was evident! The hallmark of npd is lack of true genuine empathy and she did exhibit concern and empathy for her daughters feelings in regards to certain friends not being there.
On a few occasions she admits to her hubby that she feels shes not liked and she worries how shes recieved by others. This can be a midranger quality feeling sorry for oneself and dumping that on a spouse but this was a bit like a soliliquy where she was venting to herself her worries about how others viewed her which shows self reflection and those with npd do not do this they blame shift and never admit accountabiity unless it serves them to fake doing so. It everyone elses fault. No she was concerned and troubled by it.
Lastly when jane came to her to apologise she listened and accepted her apology. Moreover she remained open to the possibility maybe it was another child and admitted her daughter played with ziggy and they were friends. She set aside their differences and forgave. This to me was conclusive that she did not have npd bc a narc would hold onto a grudge and not sway in their initial belief bc in doing so means theyd be wrong and theyre neverrrr wrong!
Renata is not a narcissist but does exhibit high narc traits in how she is to others and maneuvers in her world. Shes toughened and has to be given her career.
However i do not look at her as a super empath bc she does not imo exhibit the higher side of empathy. Super empaths have a strong empathetic quality about them and i do not see it in renata. Empathy yes but not a strong empath like madeline. Some will scoff but i feel strongly madeline is a super empath and has this higher empathetic side and the toned down narc traits we see come out from time to time when she is triggered. Renalta wouldve never taken someone like jane under her wing and taken a stand that is a true indication of a super empath someone who is not a follower and who stands up for others and their own beliefs. Renalta is in self preservation of the life shes built and has no room or desire to look out for anyone but her family. She is highly narcissistic but bc of her true empathy and self reflection is not a narcissist.
I chose UMRN. Renata reminds me of a wealthy woman I worked with years ago. By her account, she grew up very poor, had both GPD and LOCE. She suffered humiliation and cruelty from birth through high school. When she grew up she made every effort to be wealthy and succeeded. She tied her worth to all things external: Her houses, her car, her jewelry, her clothes, her achievements, her parties, her associations, her husband’s wealth and title, and lastly, her children’s images and achievements. She lived through her kids and they were extensions of herself and her aspirations.
Like Renata, she was dramatic and outspoken, not nearly as much for any real cause as for the attention she garnered. She could effectively access and utilize cognitive empathy, but any genuine, authentic emotions were to be avoided at all costs. Image was critical. Any criticism was met with retaliation. When she divorced she made a point of smearing him to all and fought over everything, every dollar, while being cheered on by her lieutenants. She vowed to always be wealthy. When she dated, she felt her dates were incredibly fortunate to be allowed into her world. She was promiscuous and spiteful. She is one of the most empty and unhappy people I have ever met.
I felt sorry for her. She had attained all she thought would make life better, and could not understand why she was still empty inside. She was a picture perfect, fractured survivor of abuse, forever changed by NPD.
Hi fyc…i know someone personally as you describe and have tried to offer genuine friendship but they get awkward when you do bc their npd is a safety guard. They dont trust anybody and in a way who can blame them given their past. Its really sad 🙁
Hi, Chihuahuamum. So true. It’s the ultimate defense. They can be friendly and social in their own way, but cannot open up or be a real friend due to NPD. What they long for deep down, they actually deny themselves. Instead they distract themselves with the finest of everything, yet always long for something more. I’m still waiting on that genie with the three wishes. One of my will be to eliminate NPD and heal everyone it touches.
I am not voting yet, but I think she is UMRN.
S1:E1
Context: Madeline introduces Jane to Renata on the morning of orientation. Renata, also, brags about joining the board at PayPal.
Madeline: This is Jane Chapman, she’s new here.
Renata: Welcome, Renata Klein, this is Amabella. (Renata shakes Jane’s hand as she introduces herself and her daughter).
Renata’s phone rings and she says: Hold on, these are my Hamilton Tickets, I’ve seen it four times. (showing off and triangulation to cause envy or admiration; fuel)
During afternoon pickup, Renata introduces Amabella’s nanny, Juliette
to Jane because Renata thinks “The Nannies” should get to know each other. (She rewrites their earlier introduction invalidating Jane; that’s gas lighting and belittling)
Later on, Renata is at home with Gordon and feels sorry for herself (pity play/martyr).
Renata: I am not liked. I am demonized for having the temerity of a career. What kind of person chooses to work, certainly not a mother. You should have seen the way they looked at me today. I’m met with utter contempt.
Gordon: Look at you, you are beautiful, highly successful, financially independent, sexy. You are on School Committee and the Board of The Aquarium. (all positive fuel)
But, then Gordon says: Women. You all want to be the envy of your friends but God forbid you garner too much of it. (hmmmm….)
Renata is clearly pissed off and angrily stalks away from Gordon.
S1:E2
When Harper informs Renata that Madeline is inviting all the children to Disney on Ice, on the same day and time as Amabella’s birthday, we see Fury:
Renata screams: I SAID THANK YOU-UUU! (God damn! she has some fantastic fury)
I agree with your points, K. Also, I question the empathy others see; as it seems she if projecting her own self-empathy (which all Ns have) onto her daughter. She created dictated the party and the expectation that everyone would attend (this is what she herself would need) and Amabella follows suit. [BTW, I thought her name was Annabella too! Thanks for the correction.]
With regard to an UMRN having no friends: The person I was reflecting on in my earlier comment who reminded me of Renata had many so-called friends. Her lieutenants were make up of a some complementary Ns, some CoDs and some narcissistic, but not narcissist people. She had very many acquaintances that orbited her world. She would use people whether so-called friend or enemy. Her choices in people resembled a collection of useful or beautiful props, each serving a different purpose. Yet they all considered each other ‘friends’. Her parties were lavish. Yet she was absent any deep bonds with others.
Thank you FYC
Renata’s empathy is all cognitive and facade related. Pure instinct. My pleasure, I missed the spelling throughout the entire series! Those who chose not to attend Amabella’s party insulted Renata’s sense of superiority and entitlement and were painted black. It’s all about the control.
Narcissists are emotionally absent when it comes to genuine connections and they just seem to float through their social circles picking up or jettisoning appliances on a whim but we now know that they are busy gathering the Prime Aims. Lavish parties are fuel gathering events and used for networking.
There really is nothing at all beneath the surface, just a void.
K, I agree completely.
Pure curiousity ; do you guys know any female narcs closely in real life ?
Yes.
I had a female narc boss. It was all bronze period, best friends, buttering me up. Telling me “secrets”. And then visiousness and vitriol later down the line. She was a back stabbing bitch with smear campaigns for days. She told me “you can find another job if you don’t like it.” Joke was on her. I already had! The owner lost several good employees because he chose to believe her lies. She isolated us from him. Before she came onboard, I had the freedom to email him directly, walk into his office, etc. She convinced him that all communication needed to come through her. From what I heard, by the time he saw through her and let her go, all the good ones were gone.
WokeAF
Yes, I worked in PTO very closely with female upper lesser/mid-rangers for 15 years and we were all great friends. I got along best with the ULN because she wasn’t overly emotional like the mid-rangers. She had a good public facade but she was also violent. I am still in her fuel matrix and I am currently shelved.
I voted ULN. She’s crass and has a lot of money and many friends but I don’t believe she has the self awareness of UMR. She seems to be covering up or over compensating a lot because of her childhood. Her money is what keeps her in these circles.
TW, You make a good point about awareness. I chose UMRN because of her facade and ability to become a CEO and serve on several boards. Is she aware and does not care? Or is she oblivious to how she comes across? I’m not certain. I am so looking forward to learning from HG’s answers. I want to get better at detection.
UMR Elite. Five minutes around her would be nails on a chalkboard to me. I decided not a greater because she seems like she just cannot believe people don’t see the “real” her, which in her mind is kind and protective.
For me, there’s too many options and I haven’t studied all the schools of empaths. But I don’t think she’s a narcissist. She does show empathy for her friends (trying to deal with Celeste’s awful mother in law) and she did turn around to pick up her husband after leaving him in the streets in middle of nowhere. Sometimes when she was alone she showed real emotion, sadness. I think she’s an empath, just not sure what kind.
That being said, I think she’s very cool, and I loved the scene where she was doing a photoshoot in her home while “it’s my house, and I live here” played in the background. That cracked me up. Slightly narcissistic, but funny.
Dearest HG: I consider her normal with empathic traits. But, normal with emphatic traits is not a choice? She is the modern woman. She Works hard outside the home, and has a family and a career. And tries to live up to that standard although it may make her personality a bit hysterical, and may not be the best for her. But, that is what society says should be the way a woman goes about life. So she embraces the normal ideal. She is Empathetic. She loves her husband and her child, and will do just about anything for both. She does not leave her husband because of the financial debacle, even though he really hurt her by practically destroying everything she has worked for and was escaping from, even her goal to escape poverty. She embraces reality and the truth when convinced and she shows forgiveness of herself and others when necessary as shown with the Ziggy situation as well. And she want to be a success in life, not be destroying others, but largely by making sure they do not destroy her first.
correction: not by* destroying others, but largely by making sure they do not destroy her first.
She’s concerned mostly with her image and becomes insane when this image is compromised. She has many friends and is a socialite in her town. Very well dressed and concerned with her appearance. Vicious if challenged and against her enemies. Limited in her ability to show emotional empathy for her friends. I’d say she is an UMR elite.
Hmmm I don’t believe she has any emotional empathy at all and even struggles to show cognitive empathy. She will revenge others, becomes angry quickly, isn’t too interested in her husband other than what he can provide for her. Obsessive about her daughter and sees her as an extension of herself. Her emotional outbursts are all about her etc.
I don’t thinks shes calculating enough to be a greater, but she is also pretty powerful, her actions are pretty direct and reactive, tries to exert control in the ‘now’ rather than seeing the bigger picture.
Incredibly fragile ego and it is all built around showing others how successful and wealthy she is.
Could be an ULN or LMN. I need to revisit the fuel matrix articles again.
Id like to see more/ read more but off the top of my head I’m going with ULN
You make some good points, Alexis.
Renata reminds me of my Upper Lesser Somatic-N Mother, who had mid-ranger tendancies…the facade firmly in place in public, but her screaming rages were on a hair trigger.
She was a natural leader, and could run any organisation with her eyes closed.
Renata –
Voted : Super Empath (geyser cadre)
Reasons:
-seems to have a rich inner emotional landscape.
-can be threatening, loses temper- explodes,but also thrilled for other’s happiness
-Smart, slightly vindictive , demanding – but sense of justice.
– Tolerated husband losing money (& other unpleasant behaviour) BUT says he’ll “pay”.
Many narcissistic traits, but many empathic traits.
Super empath. -geyser cadre