The Golden Period

the-golden-period.jpg

The Golden Period is that period when all is wonderful between us and our victims. This is the illusory mask that is donned in order to draw you in, bind you to us, embed you and then continue to savour the positive fuel that you pump out. Of course most people recognise that this is relevant with regards to the romantic relationship between the narcissist and the Intimate Partner Primary Source (“IPPS”). Certainly, this is the most intense, most intoxicating and most addictive of the golden periods, but the golden period applies to all appliances that we interact with. How does that manifest and how long are these golden periods?
Let us commence with the tertiary source. There are essentially two types of tertiary source. There is the Sporadic Tertiary Source (“STS”) and the Frequent Tertiary Source (“FTS”). The STS is somebody that we interact with just the once or perhaps more than once but not very often. So that could be somebody who we get in a lift with or who occasionally serves us when we go to a particular restaurant every few months. We do not know one another and therefore this person is a Tertiary Source however our engagement with them is always benign. They smile at us, do something helpful for us, compliment us, speak to us in an interested way and so forth. In that instant, the interaction may only be for thirty seconds or so, but that is a golden period. It is brief, very brief but nevertheless because we have engaged with that person in a benign way and drawn positive fuel from them they have had a golden period. We may not have charmed them but we have certainly been pleasant to them, we have impressed them, engaged with them in a way which has caused them to provide us with positive fuel. This means that they have not suffered in any way and we have drawn positive fuel.
The FTS is someone we may see several times a week but they remain a stranger to us. This might be somebody who we buy a daily newspaper from, or a ticket inspector on the train. We engage with the individual repeatedly and always do so in pleasant terms and thus we gain positive fuel from this person who greets us with a smile and compliments our choice of tie or fragrance, but there is no more to the relationship. We see them repeatedly and this positive engagement means there is a protracted Golden Period but the manner of the engagement remains brief, seconds or minutes at most.
A golden period for the STS or FTS will be brought to an abrupt end if they criticise us in some way and wound us or we see that drawing a reaction from them by way provocation and the provision of negative fuel would serve our purposes in another way, for instance in terms of triangulating them with someone who is a higher ranked source who we wish to impress or appear authoritative in front of.
With regard to the secondary sources, there are those who are Non Intimate Secondary Sources (friends, family and colleagues) and then Intimate Partner Secondary Sources (someone we are seducing who is likely to become the IPPS, someone who is a booty call or a friend with benefits).
Those who are NISSs nearly always have golden periods and those golden periods last for a long time. This is because we exhibit our attractive qualities, we charm, we are polite, good-natured, interesting and so on in order to attract this person to us and once designated as a NISS we keep them in place for a considerable period of time. The golden period for a NISS can last a long time because we only draw on their positive fuel now and again. Thus we may see a friend once a week or once a month and therefore there is no extensive reliance in terms of frequency and quantity from this person which threatens the potency. We may meet for an hour for a coffee or an evening out together and we draw positive fuel (plus other benefits) from them. Unless they challenge us, criticise us, stop fuel provision and such like, this golden period will continue unabated. We will not suddenly find their fuel stale (as happens with the IPPS) and therefore the golden period lasts.
With the IPSS the golden period is similarly extensive. There are three types of IPSS:-
The Candidate IPSS. This is someone who is likely to become the IPPS and is on that trajectory towards being crowned;
The Shelf IPSS. This person is not an immediate candidate for becoming IPPS (but that might change in the future) but they are used for fuel on an intermittent basis. Whilst the IPPS is devalued we will spend time with the Shelf IPSS even though we know they are not going to be the new IPPS, but their fuel etc remains of considerable use and interest to us, they may be used to triangulate with the IPPS (or other IPSSs);
The Dirty Little Secret IPSS. See more here  Dirty Little Secret

If the person is a clear prospect for IPPS then this candidate will experience the full effect of the illusory seduction as they are drawn into our world and treated like a king or queen. The various seductive manipulations will be deployed to create this magical wonderland where the most perfect love resides. This is the intoxicating, whirlwind seduction where the love-bombing abounds. Once this candidate IPSS is embedded as the IPPS the golden period continues.
Sometimes the IPSS does not secure the promotion but as I have written elsewhere there is no need to devalue this person. This person is a Shelf IPSS. Their fuel remains excellent but they are not quite right. This may  change and they are promoted in the future, or it may not and they remain an IPSS for a long time, picked up and put down when we decide. Thus if an IPSS accepts this role they will experience a long golden period. Yes, there will be periods when they will not hear from us and they have been placed on the shelf but this is not devaluation.
The fuel from an IPSS similarly does not become stale because they are engaged with intermittently by us. The pattern of engagement may be a weekend together and then nothing for a fortnight. It might be a week away together and then nothing for a month.
With the Dirty Little Secret IPSS the engagement is likely to be an hour in the evening or the occasional afternoon but usually once a week, sometimes more. The time together is not long but there is a greater frequency than that of the Shelf IPSS.
With all three of these IPSSs they experience significant golden periods.
The Candidate IPSS has an intense golden period which may be a number of weeks before they then become an IPPS and the golden period for that appliance is applicable;
The Shelf IPSS can have a golden period for years and years;
The Dirty Little Secret IPSS can have a golden period for years and years.
The Golden Periods for the Shelf and Dirty Little Secret IPSS is not as intense as that for the Candidate (nor the IPPS see below) but it remains addictive. The victim is treated well, future-faked a lot, given comfort crumbs, taken places, confided in, bought gifts and so forth.The narcissist recognises the value of these type of IPSSs and wishes to maintain them. If the IPSS challenges the narcissist, for instance wants the narcissist to spend more time with them, or threatens to expose their affair to the IPPS, the narcissist will devalue but does so in order to bring that person back into line. If they respond then the golden period is restored immediately. If not, the malfunctioning IPSS will be dis-engaged with and somebody else sought for the role.
The Golden Period for the IPPS is that which most people are familiar with. The Golden Period for the IPPS commences when they are a Candidates IPSS and once they have been embedded they continue to enjoy the fruits of the narcissist’s largesse. The golden period for the IPPS is the one which creates the truly magical connections, the dizzying delight and wondrous magnificence which becomes addictive. The Golden Period for the IPPS will last from months to years dependent on how long their positive fuel is potent enough, frequent enough and supplied in the desired quantities. A typical golden period will be 6-24 months.
The Golden Period for an IPPS ends because the appliance fails us. This is because the appliance has reduced the potency, frequency and/or quantity of the fuel so that it is no longer sufficient for us and thus devaluation must commence by way of altering the fuel provided and punishing the malfunctioning IPPS. Or the positive fuel no longer is regarded as potent by us because it feels stale. Again, devaluation follows for the reasons just explained. This determination is entirely down to us and there is nothing you can do about it. Devaluation always occurs with the IPPS because this person is who we rely on the most for our fuel provision and is the most important supplier. We thus engage with this person frequently, often live with this person, certainly see them almost every day, talk every day, do much together so we can draw on the positive fuel. The fuel is extremely potent to us and of critical consequence. However, this frequent reliance means that the risk of it becoming stale is very high and therefore devaluation follows. Unlike a NISS or IPSS, devaluation is not a foregone conclusion because of the lower demand placed on these secondary sources for their fuel provision.
Some people who are the IPPS do not experience the fireworks and magic of the Golden Period. Instead, they experience the Bronze Period. This is when the narcissist (usually a Lower or Middle Lesser or  a Lower Mid-Ranger) does not treat them especially magnificently but what they do do is keep the beast in check so that what is seen is not going to cause the newly targeted victim to retreat. The Golden Period and the Bronze Period both serve the function of hiding the true nature of the narcissist from the victim. The full horror is kept from them. The Golden Period goes further and binds the victim especially to the narcissist, it heightens the addiction of the victim, it creates a place which the victim strives to return to (and which the narcissist will reinstate if he or she sees fit) during devaluation. The Bronze Period merely keeps the horror under wraps and there will be some favourable treatment but nothing amazing.
The Golden Period for all appliances is an artifice which is designed to enable us to secure our Prime Aims (see The Prime Aims ) chief of which is the provision of fuel. Whether this illusion  is used for 30 seconds or years, it is still that; an illusion.

Advertisements

264 Comments

  1. HG tutor is there anything specific that makes them stay with someone for a long. Of time versus staying with others for very short periods? Is it just because the fuel was just that much in that good that they decided to actually stick around for a long period?

  2. HG,

    If the narcissist complains about having low energy and wishes that he was with somebody who understood his low energy levels, is this an example of the fuel that he receives is going stale and devaluation is on the way?

      1. You said pity plays were a form of exercising control—I’ve thought of this as I’d never made the connection. It’s pathetic really. Is it the attention that allows for fuel, that is the control derived?1

        1. The attention provides fuel which sustains the narcissist and signals that the control is effective.

          1. Did I really allow that in my life? It’s pretty pathetic HG. It’s a good deterrent.

    1. Brooke
      It sounds like a thinly veiled way of telling you he’s a lazy fuck and you’re going to be doing all the work in the relationship, to see if you’ll rise to, and accept the challenge.

      1. lol. I’m a IPSS and he picked her over me and now he complains about being with her. Since then, I don’t want to be with him either. So, it’s fine. I am just looking at his pattern for narcissist educational purposes. You learn a lot as a IPSS and if you’re okay with not being with the narcissist, then it’s okay most of the time. The narc confides in the IPSS. It’s been helpful for when I screen out narcissists when I meet new guys.

  3. Tutor,
    Is that “you” wearing that mask in the pic? Those eyes are horribly creepy.

    1. That mask reminds me of the mask and costume my narc showed me from the movie eyes wide shut. He loved that movie. The mask was custom made. Its ironic what that same mask now symbolizes.

    1. Believer, your sentiment is very sweet and I love FM1T hugs (adorable I love hugs too) but ladies… no golden period in ANY relationship, with a normal, empath or narc…
      Could ever last forever. That’s impossible.

      What IS possible is for two people to love and respect each other and build a life together. But for the long term… that takes commitment and hard work.

      There are a lot of “normal” couples who have facade to the world as well.

      They fall into a rut not communicating with one another anymore which is a lot different then abuse.. but my point is to say for most couples to be happy long term, they have to actively work at that (or feel completely comfortable with complacency)

      Don’t wish for the GP to last forever for SM. Wish her the strength to love herself enough to not put up with abuse. Wish her the strength to care for herself when the time comes. Wish for her to not forget about all the amazing qualities HG has told us she has and to use them when she needs them.

      1. Empath007,

        Your comment is beautiful. ♥️ I thought the Golden Phase could last forever if it lasts for years and years, and then SM dies for some reason and she dies in the Golden Phase.

        1. Thanks.

          I can’t say for myself personally that being in the “golden phase” with my narc was the best thing in my life. I also would have had no desire to die having thought it was real. As much as this process has hurt… I’d much rather know the truth and live through it because I have a life full of lots of wonderful things the narc could never measure up too if he tried.

          As for SM I think she can likely do better then being abused. I’m
          Not envious of anyone’s GP with an abuser … but that’s just me.

          I hope she can eventually GOSO… that’s what I hope for her.

          1. I have a lot to figure out from past trauma. I guess I’m a bit confused, still. I never went to therapy, yet. It was difficult finding someone who could understand this type of abuse. Though I didn’t know the name of the abuse, I knew the therapist didn’t get it.

          2. That’s usually the case T’mara. Which is why a lot of us end up here. It’s a clear description of the abuse and why it happens. I also had a therapist that re traumatized me… she suggested I forgive the narc and that he meant what he said, even tried to make it seem I was too hard on him.

            So I went to do my own research and it lead me down this path.

            I’m sorry about your past traumas. I hope you can heal from whatever that person did to you.

          3. Thank you, Empath007. ♥️ I wish to heal, too, with HG’s help because there is no one else to guide or assist me even though I am blessed with very good insurance.

            I wish I could get a TAR for my insurance company to pay HG for monthly, or weekly Consultations. I was under the coverage of Victim’s Witness, for a long time, and there is simply no one who is educated on NPD Abuse in my area, or even the other states I visit.

            So, maybe I could get a referral from my doctor to have Mr. Tudor help me. I will have to figure out how to ask my doctor, without mentioning that HG is a Sociopath because I don’t think doctor would understand, and might say, “No.” But, if I can word it right, then maybe…

  4. The golden period for the Ipps can last for months and even years.

    This article you should post on Instagram HG, you have some on there that have been waiting since the first week of the start of your golden period with SM, for you to start devaluation. I have never seen such a thing, I think it’s horrible of them!

      1. I know you don’t like these HG, but after an answer like, I can’t help myself! Come here big boy! 🤗 🤗 🤗 haha!

      2. HG
        I want you to succeed, and then to have to write a new chapter at the end of ‘Fuel’.
        It’ll be entitled:
        “I’m the first one to ever succeed in this endeavour, and here’s how I did it”….or words to that effect.

        FM1T and I have the champagne on chill as we speak…

        1. Caroline, plus a paragraph at the end of the book from SM.
          I am the Shield Maiden! I am the one that brought HG to his knees!
          Bwahahahaha! Just teasing HG! 🙃

          1. FM1T
            Yes!
            It would be good to see SM write her thoughts about the relationship too, and about herself.
            That might take a couple of chapters.
            It’d be a best-seller!

          2. Caroline,
            We must remember it cannot come out before HGs book, we must also make sure her book does not sell more then his! 🙃🤣

    1. FM1T: There are followers on instagram that want SM to be devalued? For what reason? I don’t understand that.

      1. Because they think they stand a chance to replace her. They are similar to the ones who thought it entirely appropriate to throw themselves at me when Kim was in devaluation and then threw their rattles out of the pram when SM came along.

        1. I see. Interesting. Would that be the time appropriate to “put a stick about”? (I admit I had to google the phrase “threw their rattle out of the pram”.)

          I assume Kim was IPPS prior to SM? I wasn’t on the blog at that time.

          If I may ask several questions related to this, Mr. Tudor:

          1) You advised your readers when Kim was in devaluation?
          2) Will your readers be advised when SM is in devaluation? I don’t wish for this to happen and I hope that it does not; for both your sake and hers.
          3) Is it possible there will be no devaluation for SM?

          Thank you for your response.

          1. HG
            Is there any way we can incentivize you to refrain from devaluing your girlfriend, if it happens?

            Like a volunteer sign up sheet in the Tudor Library. We can take turns being devalued to spear SM.

          2. As you know K, such action would be deemed by my narcissism as an attempt to control me and would invite a form of manipulation to quash such acts of rebellion!

          3. HG
            Hahahaha…true! I figured if MB volunteered first and survived a Tudor thrashing, then I could man up and take it, too, that way we could spare your girlfriend from devaluation.

          4. Ha ha, nearly all my readers have nothing to fear here. It is only the odd clown (and we know what they are) who will be dealt with.

          5. HG
            Hahaha…should you decide to write about the clowns, it would interesting to see examples of their behavior based on the behind the scenes action. N v N is just as compelling as N v E.

          6. Indeed K. There is a small stable of such individuals who would form interesting case studies for people. None of my sensible readers have anything to be concerned about. The studies would only utilise the behaviour of certain individuals, who many of you are actually acquainted with through their behaviour on the blog, the additional material adds further scope and insight.

          7. HG
            After your comment on Secrets 19/12/03, I refer to them as “The Six That Regularly Hoover”.

          8. Damn skippy, Lorelei!

            Google: narcsite secrets december 2019.

            Keywords: hoover regularly.

          9. Ha ha!

            “Incentivized to refrain from devaluing” not “challenged not to be an asshole”.

          10. I’m sure he knows what an asshole is. I would never refer to him as an asshole even if his behavior could be viewed as such. But if I have learned anything from this blog, it’s all a matter of perspective.

          11. Njfilly—yes and I wouldn’t say such a thing my first week, etc. I just had lunch and I’m gleeful. I was starving to death.

          12. I understand that you didn’t mean any disrespect. You are just on familiar terms. I need to show Mr. HG Tudor ultimate respect. That is just me being me.

            Don’t starve yourself to death. Gleeful is good. Are you tipsy? I plan to be later tonight!

          13. No I’m cleaning my house and playing on my phone! I’m not drinking a drop till Italy next month.

          14. Next month?! I don’t think I could wait that long! Going to Italy sounds exciting though. I hope you have a wonderful trip.

          15. Travelling alone on occasion is one of the best things you can do for yourself. It reminds and reinforces who you are when others are not around to influence you. I highly recommend it.

          16. Correct. I’m also traveling to Ontario when the weather breaks to visit a friend. It’s an easy drive. I have fond memories of some time in Kingston and want to re-visit. I will probably go alone.

          17. Lorelei:

            I don’t really know about your situation completely. I think I have read that you have children. Are you divorced and going without your children? I apologize if you feel this is a personal question and you don’t have to answer it. I’m just interested in your situation. In any event your trip will be an exciting adventure.

          18. I am divorced. I have a friend staying with the children. She is a long standing friend and used to babysit for my oldest daughter. She stays for most of what I get into or travel emergencies etc. I can kennel my dogs as needed but during the school year she stays as the kids don’t have a disruption that way. They stay at their fathers 3 evenings a week. He will (unfortunately) have them for 2 1/2 weeks at one time this summer while my niece and I travel. I do take them sometimes—but kids tend to appreciate different types of excursions and I gear some for me, some for them.

          19. Thanks njfilly. I am busy. I am already thinking 2021 events! This year is booked mostly!

          20. Oh and njfilly—my ex never asks for them more and he’s been “missing” for nearly two weeks since I’ve been off work. He has basically the capacity to act much like a disinterested lesser which suits me fine. He hasn’t called or texted the kids in two weeks. AND the girls want to be here anyway with no triangulation from me. My son likes it there because he is left alone more which aligns with his slight Asperger’ish stuff, but I know this will change. Basically my son likes either place equally well.

          21. Lorelei:

            I am sorry for whatever you are going through. I feel for people who have children involved in situations like this. I’m sure it is very difficult. I hope this blog is providing some help to you. By next month you will really need that vacation!

          22. njfilly
            I thought you were volunteering for Tudor Thrashing and, if that is indeed the case, then you are a ballsy mofo, hence the laughter. If I am mistaken then I sincerely apologize.

          23. I’m sorry, K. I was being sarcastic which I guess you didn’t realize.

            Yes, I was volunteering for the Tudor Thrashing. I might enjoy it.

            Yes, I am a very ballsy mofo, indeed, as well as being badass.

          24. njfilly
            Hahahaha…no need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure I didn’t upset you. Devaluation is serious topic and it is upsetting to contemplate.

          25. K,

            No problem. I’m not easily upset. I will be upset if a devaluation occurs. I don’t want to read about it or know about it. I guess we wait.

          26. K,

            It’s the most upsetting thing to me on this entire blog. Even more so than some of the articles related to Mr. Tudor’s life, which I find very sad, and what some of his previous girlfriends experienced. I guess because it’s happening now – or so it appears.

          27. njfilly
            Correct, we have gotten to “know” her so we feel a connection; it’s an empath thing and it ‘s the most upsetting thing on the blog for me, too. Lesley was horrible to Lennox so we understand why she was treated the way she was.

          28. I had reservation for about a minute and a half about the inclusion of information about SM on the blog or IG. More about it being a matter of ethic for some and therefore harmful to the reputation of the blog. I think a lot of people are projecting their empathic constitution on her when she may not be that type at all or react in the way that they expect. Perhaps that is why this dynamic is subject to the possibility of a different outcome. Or not, and it will be the same old story. Either way it will be a lesson for everyone. Only time will tell. If HG does.

          29. NarcAngel
            I am projecting and I am hoping for a positive outcome. I do not want to see either SM of HG hurt or wounded. It is a wait and see situation and I am apprehensive. A broken heart is a terrible thing to contemplate.

          30. njfilly
            Here it is! If you have some time read a few of the comments, HG writes about Hoover by Proxy in a response to Violetta.

            HG Tudor says:
            December 3, 2019 at 15:25
            Remember, most will believe they are a victim of a narcissist and they will look for information about it. This brings them to my work. They want to court the Ultra, gain my fuel, the fuel of readers because they are narcissists and I and the readers cause hoover triggers. The deficiencies in their fuel matrices also mean that they are likely to return. When some are ignored, this wounds and causes them to stay away for a period of time. They may latch on to other forums and this reduces the prospect of return. Of course they often fall out elsewhere so that forum becomes black and this place becomes white again so they return.

            You do not get to see this because either they email me (thus you do not see) and/or they try to comment and the comments are not moderated through. There are 6 of them that regularly hoover. One day I might create a representation of their patterns of hoover linked to their schools so you can see how frequently and in what manner they hoover.

            https://narcsite.com/2019/12/01/secrets-13/comment-page-1/

          31. K—we can send an email to HG and it’ll be a hoover. You go first! Actually though—when I read the book on hoovering it made more sense which was quite recent.

          32. Lorelei
            Hahahaha…you narc wannabe! When we contact HG, it is a Hoover Trigger, the HEC is usually met and HG is always pleasant/polite (benign control).

            But, in order to understand the Narcissistic Perspective, I found pretending to be a narcissist very helpful, so we could “hoover” him.

          33. Thank you, K.

            I will read more of the comments when I get time.

            Very interesting. So they treat this blog like a person in their fuel matrix. I don’t understand the hoover references in this comment. What are they hoovering? The blog readers? I also don’t understand hoover by proxy yet.

          34. njfilly
            Correct, when they e-mail HG, it is a direct electronic hoover (the fifth sphere of influence) and the blog is part of their Fuel Matrices. Narcsite/HG or The Reader could be painted either white or black and they will hoover for fuel.

            Occasionally, ED (Emotion Detective) malign hoovers NarcAngel which is a Hoover by Proxy. NA is a tertiary source and she belongs to HG; she is an extension of him so, when ED attacks NA (HG’s appliance), the goal is to provoke HG to respond (fuel), If HG responds then ED has asserted control and superiority. N v N.

            And HG’s or NA’s responses are usually Challenge Fuel.

            K says:
            December 4, 2019 at 22:47
            Renarde
            Absolutely, lots of empath fuel to be had.

            HG Tudor says:
            December 5, 2019 at 09:42
            The quantity would be low – written material and from around 6-12 sources.
            Potency would be low – tertiary sources.
            Frequency – intermittent and sporadic.

            Expectation would be for more.

            https://narcsite.com/2019/12/01/secrets-13/comment-page-1/

          35. K—where are the five spheres? HG references them in packages but I never remember what is what.

          36. Well, somebody has been studying!

            ED (Emotion Detective); this refers to this person’s name on the blog? This person targets NarcAngel specifically? Very interesting. How long has this been going on?

          37. K,

            Thanks. I don’t understand this being a malign hoover. I don’t doubt you, I just don’t understand all this yet.

            So “ED” changes names but keeps their initials?

          38. K,

            Boy, you really know your stuff! I guess I could learn more if I ever get around to listening to all those AP’s I purchased! I’m a little behind in matters. I have some other “things” I prioritize.

          39. Thank you njfilly!
            There’s no rush, take your time and enjoy the listening/reading.

            Learning is incremental and takes time. Once my ET was reduced, I focused on the enemy without (the Narcissist) and now I am working on the enemy within (my ET), so I have learned quite a bit while I have been here and, eventually, you will, too. It’s been a very positive experience.

          40. K:

            “Emotion Detective”? Have encountered Pamela, the Ted Bundy avatar-guy, and a few others. I don’t remember this one.

          41. If I recall correctly wasn’t emotion detective the one saying really graphic sexual things on old threads? Like just way out there stuff to you (?).. I know someone did and it was disgusting.

          42. I’m really sorry. I know things impact you differently but I know disgust is universal.

          43. A really hot looking guy from last Christmas (2018) sent me a picture nude. He’s the one who could not tip 20% in his head, and I knew it was a “no go!” Pretty but dumb. Definitely a correlation between intelligence and vulgarity. Met him at a sports bar style place. I was so stressed out—funny measure of progress.

          44. It wasn’t that thread—it was really old and I can’t even repeat what this person said they wanted in a sexual manner from our host. I was physically disgusted. I randomly found it. It was uncouth.

          45. It was composed by Bloody Elemental. Under “I cannot love you more” and the entry was posted on 2/1/17 at 17:44. Starts with “Anyone..” The post, when I read it stuck with me as way out there and one phrase in particular which I won’t quote was particularly over-stepping how most people would talk about sexual activity in reference to someone on their own blog. Granted though—I say some out-there things..

          46. Lorelei
            Found it. Well, she’s not shy. I am not sure if she is being very honest/bold or displaying poor boundary recognition. Some of my family narcissists were very vulgar.

          47. K—I’m cracking up. I had coffee with my friend and she is gone now. So, I decided to read through some of the porn supremacy and some woman on there was just nailing me with how awful of a rude bitch I was. I never saw it before! She also got onto Renarde and said she was one of my brigade. Renarde and I rarely even converse as she is not here often! It is hilarious reading really. I didn’t go through it all as I have studying to do.. Anyway—I hated to miss the insults. Yet, they are somehow refreshing this fine snowy morning. Just enough snow to be pretty, coffee with my friend. Kids sleeping in and dog at my feet. My friend offered a very good idea for my research upcoming and she then chastised me with her psychologist banter over something she thinks is a vulnerability. Yet, in the back of my mind I’ll never forget her husband proposing we have sex twenty years ago. How un-filthy are they really? Are they unfettered by the filth that she perceives deluges my life? He wanted me and my friend (his wife) to have sex with him. I said no. It’s never been discussed again. Like it never happened. But.. But.. I mention having a recent liaison with someone and she is asking me about the psychological drive behind it. Is it ok just to have a good fucking time K? Jesus. I’m not aiming for sainthood in this place!

          48. Lorelei
            Yeah, I caught the hostility right away. Big Red Flag there.

            Sometimes a good time is just a good time and I don’t understand why people think there is a psychological drive behind it. Life is short; indulge your hedonistic side.

          49. I know K! Why is it pathological to want a good time? Jesus. She asked if I felt a need to be affirmed as desirable. Uh no, I know I am not ugly. What the holy F. Stupid questions. If I were ugly I wouldn’t have bothered seducing the poor man! God I hope no one says I’m a narcissist again for saying this. It’s true. I don’t need told I’m anything special—but dammit that no human contact crap
            for several years was beyond enough!!

          50. Lorelei
            Affirmations or psycho babble is senseless; get laid, get high or get tanked or all of the above. It’s all good!

          51. K—I was so annoyed. Not one person (no fault of their own) was much help as my life crumbled. Right in front of them, albeit slowly and it was bewildering. But.. I was always clear that the marriage wasn’t right, that I was miserable. People just don’t know to ask the right questions—it’s not normal
            to be so miserable in a marriage. If it were why are people doing it? Right?! So, unfortunately explaining anything is useless because you get all the platitudes of “ it takes two to tango..” (and it does—but not a tango like they think) Useless.

          52. Lorelei
            I am sorry that you had no one/no support when your marriage/life was crumbling, that’s unacceptable and that needs to change. You will get all your support here; most of the people here understand what you have gone through.

            You are correct:

            1. People don’t ask the right questions, some of it is probably due to ignorance.
            2. It isn’t normal (it’s the norm but it shouldn’t be).
            3. People deny the abuse/miserableness in their marriages and stay, that is what we are conditioned to do.

            If you have Danger: 50 Things You Should Not Do With a Narcissist read chapter 39. Deny What is in Front of
            You.

          53. K—I’ll read this. And the problem is that people were there, in a way, they too didn’t understand.. Plus my evolution into a horrible state was so slow. I have interestingly, a before and after photo. It struck me as profound. HG has seen it—it was sent to thank him for the work at one time. (A long’ish while ago—he may not recall) The before was an engagement photo. I looked happy/normal. The after was profound. I had gained weight from drinking and my eyes looked absolutely sad and vacant. It was absolutely an emotional moment when I first compared them side to side. But that didn’t occur overnight K. It took years. I’m just glad I worked out why “it was taking so long.” I truly didn’t think I could pull off “no contact” and kept subjecting myself to rude & demeaning behavior.

          54. Lorelei
            Sadly, many people truly don’t understand, unless they have been through it. NPD abuse is like an episode of The Twilight Zone or American Horror Story. Unbelievable! People need help and education is paramount.

            The before and the after is striking. That’s the effect of the Salami Slicing approach and many victims become shells of their former selves. The Aftermath is very emotional; how could we have let this happen. Keep up the NC and things will just keep getting better from here on.

            https://narcsite.com/2017/02/24/the-narcissistic-truths-no-1-expanded/comment-page-1/

          55. I like your mention of blunt discussions with your daughter—but how blunt is the key I struggle with..

          56. Lorelei
            Children are smarter than we give them credit for so, if they ask a question, just be honest and age appropriate. They are entitled to the truth.

            We aren’t narcissists so we don’t have an overriding need to control information, keep secrets or twist the truth.

          57. No they aren’t dumb, but where does the line in the sand between certain considerations get drawn. For instance, my oldest does not wish to hear about my ex—she’s interested in less blame-shifting onto him and hearing me take responsibility. The younger kids.. I have to be careful. I can’t say, “Your dad was miserable and made me exhausted and therefore..” Maybe, “The environment was not healthy because the two adults in it were incapable of creating a healthy collaboration.” (In terms appropriate to their age)
            I don’t know. It’s just not going to be me taking a throttle for being intertwined with a Total dick. He’s taking them to an idiotic destination for summer vacation and it cracks me up. He has descended to the lower lesser caliber of destinations his lady friend prefers, and I can’t wait till the kids are like “WTF.” Hilarious.

          58. Lorelei
            My children know all about the dynamic and I was very neutral and logical about it. As I learned here, I transferred the knowledge to them using cognitive empathy. These are some of the things I told them.

            1. He is disordered and it’s not his fault.
            2. He doesn’t know he’s a narcissist and never will.
            3. He manipulates for fuel and he has no choice.
            6. His personality is how he survives his reality.

            HG Tudor says:
            September 2, 2019 at 13:16
            Your Cognitive Empathy is your safeguarding empathy.

            Vent here but try to remove the emotion when talking to your children.

          59. I like this K. I’ve saved it. I forgot briefly how there is a lot of mileage to be gained when some form of compassionate declaration encompasses the mention of the disorder. (The compassion in the statement of “its not his fault”)

          60. Lorelei
            Good to read. It’s all about perspective. KISS: Keep It Simple Sweetheart.

            It’s a disorder, learn to recognize the signs and protect yourself and your children.

            Everyone is faultless in this dynamic so be compassionate with yourself, too.

          61. K, if you don’t mind me asking, what age were your kids when you discussed the dynamic with them? And did you explicitly use the ‘N’ word?
            I am planning for the future but dare not use the ‘N’ word at this time with my son.

          62. WhoCares
            I don’t mind at all. My oldest daughter was 25, my son was 18 and my youngest, a daughter, was 6 and I used the word narcissist or disordered.

            Now, my 9-year-old uses the words fuel, facade, blame shifting and narcissist as part of her everyday vernacular, she understands black and white thinking and she teaches her friends. She’s good at ferreting out narcissists, too.

          63. Thank-you K!

            “She’s good at ferreting out narcissists, too.”

            That’s certainly a good life skill for your 9 year old to have.

            My situation is still under much scrutiny so I haven’t broached any of these discussions…but I do use opportunities in movies, and such, to point out manipulations and when there are discrepancies between a character’s words and their actions. Also, my son recognizes there are differences between my behaviour and his father’s behaviour – especially with regard to his dad’s lack of boundary recognition.

          64. I have to be very careful using the word narcissist. It’s even more a licensure issue—and then when/if I actually have a license to diagnose axis II disorders and apply a diagnostic term, it’s a whole host of other problems. I do like the use of black white thinking, blame shifting etc.

          65. Lorelei,
            Understood and agreed. This is problematic in talking with various professionals who do not have it within their capacity to diagnose or – even use diagnostic language – so you, sort of, have to talk around this issue or describe the behaviours themselves. I have found that some will use the term ‘narcissistic’ to avoid this problem – but here we grasp that there can be a huge difference between “narcissist” and “narcissistic”.

          66. Exactly Whocares—and not a lot of people are qualified to diagnose from the DSM, and if you are you have to have a patient record and then still can’t say it due confidentiality! I can be sued for saying it because I have a license and it’s practicing outside of my scope.. I can’t say it really. The behavior I can describe though. HG is not licensed as a medical doctor because (for one) it would have impeded his ability to function in this way—if his identity were known he’d be open to endless law suits. He would never be able to touch people either!

          67. Lorelei
            My oldest daughter uses gas lighting, lack of accountability and deflection at work. She avoids the N-word, too.

          68. My pleasure WhoCares!
            I do the same thing when I read to my 9-year-old. In the book Wish by Barbara O’Connor, Charlie’s (the main character) parents are bother lessers and I point out the disordered behaviour and abuse.

            Keep pointing out the manipulations so he can learn to recognize them. Children are very smart and it’s our job to protect them and to teach them how to protect themselves.

          69. K—did I reply to this? I agree. It is not pathological to want sex or to wish to get intoxicated. It is pathological to want sex with narcissists which is a pathology I seem to identify with! I can’t be the only person here that still finds the lure appealing—a certain comfort in false charm and pompous men. It’s like narcotics anonymous for women who love bad men! I am not sleeping with a narcissist again unless we draw up a contract first.

          70. Lorelei
            Yes, you did and I will respond to that one, as well.

            You and I are both addicts so of course we want to have sex with narcissists; it is a symbiotic relationship. We are simply different sides of the same coin feeding off of each other (Parasite).

            Fatal Beauty (narc Heroin) is dangerous and exciting and who doesn’t want a hit of that.

          71. K—I have a doi reference for an article I’d love you to look up but have to do from my laptop.. It’s good, found it in my research today for school.. I’ll post soon enough.

          72. V
            She’s not worthy of knowing or remembering. I hate to even have her name come up here because I’m sure she still reads and her forehead might bulge more than is usually caused by the delusional encephalitis that usually resides there.

          73. Sorry NarcAngel!
            This thread is a Hoover Trigger. Perhaps I should have used Aunt Clara as an example.

          74. K
            No need to be sorry – they don’t bother me a bit. They are as a new piece of tinsel is to a cat: Shiny and fun for a minute but then exposed as dull, boring, and left mangled on the rug destined for the bin.

          75. NarcAngel
            Hahahaha…you are a Narc Magnet.

            When I started posting, I wondered what the hell was going on with certain individual’s malign behaviour directed towards you. Now that I understand the dynamic/signs, it comes as no surprise. You are the competition and a threat to their control so their pathological envy and jealousy manifests through malign hoovers directed at you.

            An attack on HG’s Readers is an attack on HG so there’s your Hoover by Proxy.

          76. Violetta:

            I’m hardcore. What can I say.

            Am I correct that you are involved in some type of reenactment group? I think I read a comment you made somewhere but I’m not sure it was you.

          77. HG: I’ll take your word for it. Sometimes they are enlightening, the grammar-manglers can be highly entertaining, but a few have been rather distressing.

            I suppose a lot of them just bore you when they keep running the same games that failed on previous occasions.

          78. They bored me at a very early stage. They continue to bore me. Their obsession continues.

          79. Violetta,

            The only one I am aware of was a bit entertaining when he made a comment about coming behind Mr. Tudor then was complaining his comments were not being posted and his emails were not being answered. Maybe that was Ted Bundy avatar guy, I’m not sure.

            Never mind. It was more pathetic than entertaining.

          80. njfilly
            evilmuskhat is the Ted Bundy Avatar guy and DARKEST CUPIDO a.k.a. NARCISSUS is the author of the entertaining comment.

            evilmuskhat says:
            December 21, 2019 at 20:59
            HG
            What is DARKEST CUPIDO an example of?

            https://narcsite.com/2019/12/19/do-narcissists-know-what-they-are-doing-the-lesser-6/

            NARCISSUS says:
            December 26, 2019 at 19:40
            I want you to picture yourself having a conversation like this with any other person in a public place, then me approaching your back cautiously and you don’t getting to hear me approaching your back, next, me getting close enough to smell your hair, and suddenly my strong and young hands grabbing your old and weak shoulders bruptly… I want you to picture the end of such successful approaching XD.

            https://narcsite.com/2019/12/26/wanted-extinguished-or-shining/

          81. K,

            Yes, thank you. This is the comment I remembered reading. It is written poorly and I find that very annoying and reflective of the writer.

            Do you know if evilmuskhat and narcissus are males? Are they here to gain the attention of and challenge Mr. Tudor rather than learn anything?

            You are great, by the way K!

          82. Some of it is Pure Fuel and some of it is Challenge Fuel. It is neither needed or wanted and invariably they are ignored. Previously I might entertain myself a little but they bore me very quickly. They of course, because of their need to try to control me (which they cannot recognise) keep hoovering even though they never get any response from me. They do continue to read the blog and often, owing to magical thinking, perceive something which is not there which sets them off again. One in particular repeatedly believes she has been not shown favour like others. It is entirely without merit and I am not going to waste my time explaining the evidence which shows that. However, notwithstanding that (1) There is no evidence to support the allegation (2) I never respond to the repeated provocations, this individual intermittently keeps hoovering trying to gain my attention.

          83. Mr. Tudor,

            Can you explain to me what exactly is magical thinking? Also, what causes it?

          84. It is caused by the narcissism, it is part of the self-defence mechanism and a manifestation of grandiosity. It is part of the narcissists perspective but towards the far end of the spectrum far that particular narcissist.

            For instance –
            1. Brad Pitt (not a narcissist) “Many women find me attractive.” They do, how do we know this, because he is a film star, he would not be described as physically unpleasant and many women express their desire etc for him. Not magical thinking.
            2. Angelina Jolie (narcissist) “Many men find me attractive.” They do, how do we know this, she is a film star and would not be described as physically unpleasant and many men have expressed their desire for her. Not magical thinking.
            3. Mr Mid Range Salary Man (narcissist) “All the women in the office want to fuck me.” He is unremarkable in position, charisma and looks yet not only is it unlikely that all the women would want Brad Pitt if he worked there (some may not be attracted to him, some are married and would not cheat) it is even less likely that all the women would want to fuck Mr Mid Range Salary Man, that is his magical thinking.

          85. I’ll happily take one for the team with Brad. Pitt or Cooper. Is that magical thinking?

          86. Thank you HG
            That sums it up quite nicely and I think an article is necessary. Every once in a while, I toot my own horn and I was worried about it being magical thinking.

          87. The emails are a good example of a Hoover Trigger (HT) and the Hoover Execution Criteria (HEC) being easily met, however, no hoover (a hoover is control) was deployed, a Silent Treatment (ST) was deployed instead (exertion of control).

            It’s all about the control, fuel and supremacy and the provision of an explanation would have been fuel and evidence of control (by the sender) over the receiver (HG), in HER world.

            However, if HG responds, either on the blog on in private, it’s a manipulation; he is the puppet master; he is THE controller, not the controlled.

          88. My pleasure njfilly
            And thank you for your kind words!

            DC is a Midranger and, based on the typos in his comments, I suspect he may be a LMRN somatic. DC is here to fulfill the Prime Aims and, although evilmuskhat can be provocative, I am not really sure what he is.

          89. K: holeeee sheepshit. It has not occurred to me that a narc views OTHER PPL’s relationships as that person’s extensions. 🤦‍♀️ wow.
            So ..since HG “belongs” to the narc that malign Hoovers NA…how is it this narc view HG as having an extension himself- if HG isn’t registered as an independent entity ?

          90. WokeAF
            Holy sheepshit is correct.

            In this instance, HG is the target (for the Prime Aims) and NA is the competition.

            These MMRNs (let’s assume that’s what they are) don’t consciously realize that people/appliances are extensions. It is more likely that they view HG, NA and all the Readers as an extension of themselves and part of their Fuel Matrices (NITS).

            Essentially, it is a Narc Off and what makes this all the more compelling is that HG knows exactly what is going on and so do we.

          91. Violetta:

            Very interesting. I was also involved in Renaissance fairs years ago as well as being in a Revolutionary War reenactment group belonging to a fife and drum corp. when I was a child. I love anything involving costumes.

          92. Njfilly:

            Costumes and dancing. Preferably combined.

            I blame it on Gone With the Wind and the Zeffirelli Romeo and Juliet. Many girls fantasize about having Rhett Butler carry them up the stairs or having their very own Balcony Scene. I wanted to lead a reel while wearing a hoopskirt and dance to “Salterello la Regina” in a gammura.

          93. Njfilly:

            ‘So “ED” changes names but keeps their initials?’

            I thought E.D. stood for “Erectile Dysfunction.”

            Maybe it does.

          94. Whether they are male or female. Do they behave differently due to that in trying to get fuel or hoover you or other commenters here.

          95. Yes they do. The males tend to be “I want to be like you HG/I am like you HG/posturing.” The females aim for seduction/pity play.

          96. Njfilly and K:

            We can tell ourselves that Lesley “deserved it.” (Haven’t read that book yet, but it seems to be the consensus.) Hannah seems considerably less culpable (she’s the actress HG provoked into screwing herself out of a voice), but I do fault her for insufficient devotion to her craft: what’s to stop her from finding someone else to read lines with, after a few instances of HG sabotaging her, even if she wasn’t sure it was deliberate?

            I also fault her for insufficient sense of duty to cast and crew: I stayed out of moshpits whenever I was doing a show, particularly a dance show, not just because I didn’t want to be replaced, but because I knew that the farther along a production was, the more of a pain in the posterior replacing me would be: they might already have costumes, the other actors might have to change their interpretations depending on the new cast member’s line readings. I got my first non-school credit when a woman walked out of a production a week and a half before opening. Before that, I had racked up numerous callbacks, but not been cast; after that, I started getting one show after another. I suspect the woman I replaced never worked in theatre again.

            That said, Lesley and Hannah were painted black. (Is that a Stones reference, HG?) SM is currently painted white, but we don’t know what HG might say about her in devaluation. In addition, we only have his word about how awful any girlfriend was or how wonderful the current girlfriend is. None of these women might be as ideal as she initially seemed, nor as heinous as HG eventually depicted her. We might say, “All right, this one or that one wasn’t asking for it the way Lesley did, but why was she such a doormat? I wouldn’t put up with that!”

            Except we did. That’s why we’re here.

          97. Violetta
            Staying out of the moshpits is an excellent display of emotional empathy for the cast and crew. Narcissists don’t do responsibility or accountability. They would be taking selfies in the moshpit and posting them on Facebook. Look at me (in the moshpit with duck lips)!

            I see an empath and I want to paint her black. Lesley is the only IPPS that I didn’t feel bad for and I (we) put up with it because I was juiced-up on the narc skag a.k.a. The Golden Period.

            Evan711 says:
            May 18, 2016 at 23:44
            Ouch… I take it Leslie was not an empath…?

            malignnarc says:
            May 19, 2016 at 09:31
            She had some empathic traits but not was not an empath.

            https://narcsite.com/2016/05/18/elated-and-eroded/

          98. HG:

            “One in particular repeatedly believes she has been not shown favour like others.”

            You stood up Sweetest Perfection, and you didn’t stand up meeeeee….

        2. HG:

          Aside from the fact that you’re not going to engage in a conflict of interest with the Tudorites, do the rattle-throwers honestly not believe that eventually they would be in devaluation while you lined up the next victim? Have they read what you’ve actually written? What’s to stop them from being the next Hannah or (forgive the expression) Lesley?

          1. HG
            I suspected as much regarding the rattle throwers and it displays a lack of emotional empathy.

          2. NarcAngel
            I referred to my ULN’s father (a lesser) as Baby Huey because he behaved like a big fat baby. His waist size was 52 inches US, he was a size 4XL.

          3. K aka Violator (couldn’t resist)

            That’s a big baby. I want to clarify the comment regarding lack of maturity was in relation to the rattle throwers.

          4. NarcAngel
            Hahahaha…my ULN’s father was a big-fat-immature-rattle-thrower! Violator! haha…oh, the shame of it!

          5. And HG—I know you don’t look like Baby Huey. I imagine you wear a large size shirt, and 34” x 32” trousers. I bet I’m spot on.

          6. I’m right or nearly correct based on the legs in the photo and stated height. Unless you are a slob and it’s the pool boy. I know men’s clothing sizes and I know them well. Your legs (or the pool boys) are not those typically associated with a 32” waist which gets kinda thin really. 34” is perfect. 32” length is standard for reasonable height.

          7. You are very persistent that they are your legs. I’ll give you that. Overly thin men are not appealing. My ex lost weight and looked horrible when he lost the biggest bulk of his money. It’s a shame he didn’t starve himself to death. Stupid Fuck. What a complete and totally useless fucking moron.

          8. Jesus ok—I’ll accept it as fact. I’m glad you have two legs. Mine are never tan because the sun is damaging. I only tanned a little for a wedding. I found it hot, sweaty, and gross. I don’t like the poolside all that much. Not for long. I don’t do cruises. (Although Antarctica is of interest) I don’t like it Sam I am.

          9. Really? I had a
            little hole in the hippy portion of my underwear just last week and threw them out. I can’t be seen dead in my bed in such an atrocity. Like what if I suddenly die and have stitching in disarray? No way.

          10. I think magical thinking is a good term, but also idealism (which is a form of magical thinking after all) or ambition. The way some here wish for SM to be different and somehow start a new period of history is also something I personally would describe as idealism because it implies elements of good will. Magical thinking sounds more like delusion.

            I am making a comment on this thread now because I think I am currently experiencing devaluation from one of my narc colleagues. I wrote about him a bit elsewhere, I brought him up as an example for someone I cannot imagine anything else but a Greater. We work for the same organization that he very significantly expanded and revamped in the last ~15 years, so he is one of the top leaders there. When I brought him up as an example, I mentioned how I was very puzzled at the beginning about what, to me, felt like his excessive and very visible interest expressed in me. This never had romantic/sexual elements (not that I know of) but purely professional, his wanting me to fit nicely into his empire and serve its purposes, his demands, his vision etc. To become one of his primary lieutenants, as HG likes to say. Well, that did not happen but it wasn’t so obvious as I was self-aware enough to see I’m better to integrate to a certain extent and show (sometimes fake) being his fan, so that I can benefit from my time at the place. That actually lasted pretty nicely for almost 10 years, until sometimes last year, when I started to notice changes in his behavior towards me. That was also part of the reason I became interested in HG and this blog, to see what it is about in more depth. It doesn’t bother me too much because it is clear as day that, just like I didn’t specifically do anything to deserve the excessive attention at the beginning, I also didn’t do much to lose it (except not becoming a blind follower which, I guess, is significant trigger for a narc like him).

            The other factor I can identify now is that he has a lot of new prospects for the same position now, several new people who started working for the company last year. It is very interesting to observe. Kinda annoying at times because, based on who he is, he easily forms and directs cliques at the place and I very clearly see them casting me out now. Luckily, I played it well enough from start that I am not directly dependent on him because my primary affiliation is another department and this guy’s is secondary for me. But I still run into them all the time because we work on the same field.

            Anyhow, I am just ignoring all of it. There is no way in hell I would want to go to him asking what’s wrong now or appeal to him in any way. I am still fascinated by how the guy operates and what he has achieved with it, the scale of it etc, and I admire the skill, how it can influence masses. I don’t see him in black-and-white. But there is no point in wishing it to be different or to wonder what the heck happened, because I know what happened. I am looking to leave the organization anyway within a year for other reasons. What I do see though, all over the place, is how the countless people he has ensnared professionally get desperate at even a dismissive glance of his and endlessly try to suck up to him. I don’t even see how that could be broken once these people have obviously enmeshed with him and his empire. It is also clear the guy wouldn’t give a fuck if any of them left – there are always lots of new ones coming in. I do think that my indifference irritates him some but I don’t see what else would be a good strategy on my end.

            As for the magical thinking – I must say that I had a little bit of that in the beginning. Probably in part because I felt confident that I would be immune to be manipulated in harmful ways. But I am absolutely not immune, the only thing that has kept me from being affected much is that I haven’t enmeshed from start. I must admit I considered it at times, and can’t even say I as so wise to predict future in precise detail, it was more just my personality, not being and enmeshing/follower/conforming type. But once that happens, anyone can wish any amount of change and new era of history to this guy and his world… I see it very clearly it’ll never happen. I think I would be in a very difficult position now professionally, even if I left the company, because his influence reaches everywhere within our field, internationally. But he can enjoy his devaluation all he wants, I bet it won’t last long, it would be weird if someone like him spent too much energy on manipulation that is mostly sterile. I do think he benefited from me in the beginning and I have also benefited from him, we can let it go.

          11. Dorion,

            I guess I am experiencing some magical thinking myself as I also hope Mr. Tudor’s relationship with The Shield Maiden will continue; that she is somehow different. But I guess the reality is that the difference must come from Mr. Tudor.

            Maybe the “new dynamic” will work. I don’t actually know what that is. I’m not sure if it has been explained in detail on the blog.

            I have only been on this blog for approx. 6 months so this is the only experience I have with knowing any information about Mr. Tudor’s relationships, other than as written about in articles. Perhaps I need to reread Asylum of the Grotesque to bring myself back to reality.

            I can already feel in myself the heartbreak that The Shield Maiden might experience when her dream turns into a nightmare. I sometimes have to step away from the blog because of it.

          12. Njfilly—I want HG to have triplets and get a mini van! Wouldn’t it be a nice change?!

          13. Funny! Identical triplets. Tudor clones. But they would never be as good as the original.

          14. I have a mini van he can use that just sits. I spent a fortune in repairs and I’m bitter to sell it. Waste of money. The kids and their friends like the space but I rarely drive it. I finally bought an all wheel drive or 4 wheel drive capable vehicle. Is an all wheel drive a 4 wheel drive? Who knows. Anyway—it’s snowy and slippery today. HG can use the van.

          15. I drive an SUV which I believe is all wheel drive. I think this might have to do with fuel efficiency?

            I think 4 wheel drive requires locking of the wheels and is for off-road, deep snow, or other difficult driving conditions. Or something similar.

            I usually have a man available for all “car related” or “mechanical” errands or issues. Men are so handy. I love them. (Well, some of them anyway).

          16. HG—I have a button to push to put the SUV into 4-wheel drive. Is it an all wheel drive or what?

          17. I imagine HG isn’t mean to children. In fact, I imagine his nieces and nephews have a positive view. I understand he is clear on not wanting them—but to be honest K—I bet he’s more appropriate with them than many due to an awareness of what is not ok that other narcissists can’t see. I imagine interactions are not often though.

          18. Lorelei
            Based on what I have read, I think he treats them well. He is an elite so he will use benign control (somatic gesture of generosity, gifts) which accords with his facade.

          19. Will do K. If I get to it I’ll find the link to what I found ridiculous. I know it’s accessible but requires a bit of sifting. It’s a good example of nonsense.

        3. HG, here is another vote for writing about those “hidden” wannabes and case studies, including some from behind the scenes (Instagram, your inbox of whatever). I think it was already mentioned on another thread before. I would even love to have a detailed version with analysis in a book format and am sure many people would be interested.

        4. That’s unfortunate HG. That anyone would wish for anyone to be devalued. Would it be the magical thinking of a narcissist or a very fragile empath to throw themselves at you or send nude photos? I get the concept of idolizing or transference, but wouldn’t sending nudes exceed this? I wonder what your thoughts are. Also, I think it’s ok if a relationship becomes stale for it to be said. They get stale for everyone in a way—eventually. Just different than a narcissist type of stale. Mundane perhaps. I just hate to think of a less than kind devaluation after the work here with us. I think that is fair. Devaluation triggering a disengagement is not “abuse” per se.

          1. Those that do it from the beginning, do so in order to seek to seduce me. There is no boundary recognition, magical thinking, a sense of entitlement. A fragile empath with heightened emotional thinking may idolise me or hero worship me but would not start off by sending me nude pictures or videos. Rather they would be appreciative and may (not always) develop a fantasy and an infatuation with regard to me, driven by heightened ET. There are significant differences between the two groups (which I should add are a very small percentage of my readers – most readers do not interact with me) and the two groups are treated differently. No empath or normal who is need of my assistance will have any adverse response from me.

          2. Well I think it’s acceptable to disengage from relationships and to share what you want—but it’s unacceptable for anyone to wish for someone to be hurt by actions other than the act of simple disengagement. Actually, a disengagement, per se-happens in all sorts of relationships and doesn’t have to be preceded by overt & unpleasant behavior. I don’t like certain people but don’t wish for unpleasantness to encompass their days. Even my ex—truly. If he’s unsettled it impacts others. He may lash out at an employee for instance.
            I also think when it comes to a really broken empath that develops a transference (lending to a romantic notion) that it is kind of you to be aware by stating just what you recognize. I think many regular commenters may have some form of “transference” based on gratitude for the work or other attributes that make it fun here. It’s a projection really (transference is a projection of sorts) and for a long while I had no semblance of achieving anything positive, so there is a projection of positivity based on evidence of nice changes and the promise of more. My mother was able to see something she had not in a long time—there is no way to determine the value on this fact. Is this clear as mud? I assume this is a more typical endearment.
            A mid-range narcissist running a narcissist recovery type of site could easily take advantage of someone. No one is being taken advantage of here, and if I were to take a guess you would know who requires the utmost caution for boundaries based on suspected “romantic” transference, AND act appropriately and accordingly. So, let the naysayers state “He is (insert any comment) and I can’t read his work..” Let them go babble online with some victim narcissists and get fucked over again and again. Also, saying a broken empath is not to denigrate anyone. I’m very broken. It would be a different type of transference and not related to someone’s innate worth. Maybe a culmination of individual factors rendering a romantic consideration as the brand of transference perhaps.
            HG—my true prediction is that any romantic relationship you have will grow stale. It’s what you do when that occurs that is where any real work rests. No, I don’t think you are a nice psychologist with five kids and dogs running a narcissist business with a nice wife. I do believe the narcissism is real and I don’t believe with the nomadic nature you describe that any relationship will avoid being stale. Stale happens to us all in a way, and the narcissism will have to be fed. Re-channeling it would be the challenge. And would anyone’s fulfillment of the prime aims suffice the re-channeling as worth it?

          3. HG
            Wow! Nude pictures or videos. Well, there’s your seduction hoover(s). Your inbox must be time-consuming and tedious.

          4. Lorelei,

            I hope this post will end in the right place. I just want to say that I like your comment very much about transference and the responsibility of someone who claims to be very knowledgeable and self-aware, to see it for what it is and handle it with fairness. Where true improvement could start. The cliche problem is that if there is no desire for modification, there won’t be change. Taking my favorite comparison with addiction: one can tell an addict in any way they want, till they drop down dry, that the addict’s life would be better if they put down the drug and remodeled their life dramatically. Most already know it but it will never happen unless they want the change so badly that it overrides every other desire, or when everything around them collapses and no other choice is left. It really is a dark reality, sadly.

            Thanks again, Lorelei, I very much enjoyed reading your note and agree completely!

          5. Thanks Dorian—transference is an interesting concept. And being self aware allows HG to know of the vulnerability here, and to be cautious where needed so people can benefit from the work and not stay stuck.
            I am aware of psychiatrists who are inevitably mid rangers having sexual or other liaisons with patients. **And this is a plural observation. It is inappropriate and a flagrant disregard for another’s wellness —and almost inevitably inflicted by NON self aware narcissists. If someone improves and time moves into a different direction maybe a friendship evolves.. That would be the only non-damaging scenario.

      2. njfilly
        That’s upsetting to read. I am not always on instagram; I don’t wish that on SM or anyone else. It’s heartbreaking to even think about.

      3. Njfilly,

        I’m also quite new here, found this blog sometime November last year, so that makes ~3 months at best. I also don’t read here daily on a regular basis and miss many posts and answers to my posts. Plus, I am also fairly selective in my reading and engagement, for the same reasons I cited in my story about my colleague. I want to keep it focused on things that I really benefit from (including in practical, tangible ways) and resist merely feeding my curiosity. My curiosity tends to be sort of endless, so I would easily and quickly get lost and distracted if I gave in to all of its pulls… ask me how I know this. Learned the hard way in the past, over many years.

        Yes, I know it can feel sad and even provoking when we realize or hear that these narc patterns just won’t change, and it is very, very, very unlikely that any of us will be exceptions in relation to or truly influence the narc to change behavior. I think HG’s recommendation to take it as zero chance is the best bet indeed. Because, you know… with the idealism and seeking/wanting to implement changes that align better with our vision for a subjectively perceived better world, what is the chance to succeed really? Based on all the precedents, data from years, decades, history even? Very little, sadly. We can make reforms and revolutions in society but they are better not go through an obvious narc channel, or attempting the narc channel to transform as we wish. You see, this is why my strategy is: see what is really there, understand why you are interested and what you can possibly take away from it, pursue the latter (your goals basically) and leave the rest. I know this is hard for Empaths, easier for me as I am more just a Normal in this classification.

        1. Dorion,

          I also don’t read here daily or make as many comments as other readers. I try to be selective as well due to limited time.

          The blog is very funny at times and the commenters make very interesting, funny and clever comments. It’s a fun distraction from work as well as sometimes a release of my own thoughts. Also, I thoroughly enjoy Mr. Tudor’s work and he is a very gifted writer.

      4. One reason I like Greaters and will not refuse to work with them in the future even: I know they like good ideas and will strive to integrate them into their own Grand Design. I have plenty of those ideas, but not the same level of ambition, at least as far as visibility and execution goes. So am not reluctant to share them because I know which ideas I want to expand and own for myself (so those will be carefully isolated and managed) and which ones are just… ideas to spread out there, for people who will more likely make them happen. I am often the kind of person who is satisfied with just developing ideas and leave the implementation to others. Little desire to control anyone apart from myself. I honestly don’t even care if sometimes the implementers don’t credit me, again, because I know what projects are my primary interests of ownership and I definitely do not recklessly/generously share those. But all the hundreds of other thoughts, ideas, suggestions… that is what consulting is for.

        I actually look forward to working with more Greaters in the future. I am not a bad combo with them at all. I think I am a bad combo with Mids and Lessers.

        1. Dorion,

          I have only recently learned about narcissism so I don’t know if I have encountered any greaters. I definitely respect and admire ambitious driven people, and have worked with quite a few over the years in different fields. I have been quite ambitious and driven myself.

          Contrarily, I also admire a certain segment of society that lives an unencumbered, free lifestyle; i.e. hippie surfer dude that lives in CA under the boardwalk, owning few possessions and working daily only for food to eat. I respect that as well. Such a free lifestyle with little responsibility except to live each day, having no attachment to material things or even a home. This lifestyle provides a new and different perspective on life and other matters and completely re-prioritizes one’s values, needs, and experiences . If this is done by choice, rather than laziness or inability to hold a job, I see the value in it and I respect it and almost envy it at times.

          I am similar in that I don’t require recognition in certain areas. I sometimes actually prefer anonymity. I know I’m great and other people recognize it even if they don’t outwardly acknowledge it. (Just being sarcastic).

          Although I have dealt with both lessers and mid rangers, I might prefer lessers. I would prefer outward aggression to passive aggression, fake compassion, or victim hood. I prefer to know immediately who my enemies are rather than having to guess or being fooled. I prefer to live bluntly and honestly and often can’t hide my feelings or hold back my thoughts.

        2. Dorian
          I worked with a Greater. They are great workers, you can go to them with a complaint and they will get it fixed for you, they have a dynamic energy. But they are narcissists, and they are very powerful and nothing to mess with. You may not realize it, but they are not loyal to you, you can know them for years and you’re still like a stranger in their eyes because you’re not a person, you’re a thing-an appliance. Your ideas will get used because the narcissist will use them to make himself look good. But don’t be fooled by their masks. Greaters are the best at mirroring us, at manipulating us, but they chuckle behind people’s backs who don’t realize they’re being used by them to get where he wants to be and get what he wants. I never want to know or associate with any more narcs. They take your time away, your thoughts, and everything from you.

      5. Njfilly,

        Thanks for your thoughts. I have been interested in narcissism for a long time but mostly approached it via more academic literature and the mental health profession. What HG is doing is definitely unique and much more accessible, plus has the practical elements that most other “studies” are lacking.

        I am pretty convinced that the guy I was talking about is a Greater, sort of if he is not one, then no one is. Some other people I’ve met are more a suspicion, but I have not seen them from enough angles to be similarly confident. Most of them have been in my professional circles, which doesn’t only attract many high achievers but also good strategists who can use the system to their advantage, at least on the more senior levels. One person that probably also fits that bill I met in my personal life, in an online community, we were buddies for a while but never met in person. After it became 100% clear that I had no interest in him romantically/sexually, he was surprisingly open with me and told me about how he maneuvered his professional life and the women he hooked up with – HGs stories (especially about women) often remind me of him. I think I’ve also met quite a few Mid-Rangers and never got along well with them. Most of those were very passive and, like you, I can’t stand that behavior. I think I’ have not encountered many Lessers but those that I suspect had very little in common with me so never developed relationships of any kind.

        You are bringing up something that is very important to me, regarding freedom. I am not a hippy type per se but value freedom and autonomy over most things in life. It is not like the narcs’ desire for control and self-centeredness, that’s not freedom for me but slavery. I have never been interested in accumulating material possessions like property, objects and the so-called traditional status symbols – I see them as clutter and boring things to maintain. For me, status is related to ability and competency, not position, and this is why I sometimes tend to clash with authority…people who exert power using position but lack the competency. I surely like money because it can buy me things I like to do, but it is a tool not a goal. I am following some of those people in the US who live in mobile homes and in vehicles they refurbished to be their homes and really admire many of them. Narcs think that they are superior and others envy them and their things, but they can never truly understand the value of freedom because they maintain a complicated, high-maintenance web of dependencies and have no desire/ability to live differently. I think one can be ambitious, driven, accomplish great things, and still be quite free – not in a sense that they are not controlled by others but in mind and lifestyle. Have balance and mental peace. If someone is constantly preoccupied with their maneuvers and how to manipulate, those things are impossible to achieve, in my opinion.

        1. Dorion,

          Interesting comment. You actually touched on quite a few things I could write a lot about, particularly the control/freedom dichotomy that is another prevalent theme in my life. Instead I will comment about clutter. I mentioned on another comment that I am “somewhat” of a minimalist. I can’t be a true minimalist for various reasons but I hate clutter and collections of any kind and I have always been this way. Even in my youth when teenagers were collecting albums and cassette tapes of music I couldn’t understand the reason to collect such things, or anything for that matter. I don’t want to have attachments to material things. Also I like to simplify my life as much as possible and I am very neat and organized and having less possessions helps in these areas. Although I would prefer not to live in a “tiny home” or mobile home. I do enjoy big houses, I must say. I like to have many rooms and large rooms
          if possible because I like a lot of space, I just don’t like those rooms filled with useless crap or furniture!

          I agree Mr. HG Tudor’s blog is unique. May I ask what field you are in?

      6. Njfilly,

        I am a scientist in academia, in the last decade or so focusing on mental health-related medical research. I’ve always worked for top notch organizations. That’s where I meet those narcs I was talking about, they are typically in some higher leadership position such as department chair, dean, director etc and tend to have wide-ranging networks and influence. I also have a private consulting business where I sometimes work with clients who are obviously highly narcissistic, but they don’t do anything bad to me because they want the benefit of the service and I can easily dump them if they try to maneuver in ways I don’t like.

        I am similar regarding minimalism, it is just my nature when it comes to things and property. I am absolutely not a minimalist about mental/intellectual “wealth” – in part I like to limit material surplus so that I don’t need to waste my time maintaining those, it is very boring to me. But, at the same time, I care a lot about aesthetics, quality of everything and like to have a harmonious, organized, tasteful, highly function-oriented environment, I am not as purely cerebral as some people I have met. I became highly aware of my intrinsic minimalism during a time in the past when I was struggling with mental health myself, how my go-to approach is reducing things around me to unhealthy levels (unhealthily minimalistic) when I am not well and feel that I cannot handle everything. I would still always keep my intellectual pursuits but live as though my material existence was irrelevant. I learned this and am now aware that I should not be overly minimalistic, to the extent that I am neglecting my physical needs and comfort. I also like space but don’t care about large houses for the reason mentioned above, because it takes a lot of maintenance if I want to keep it in a condition that is satisfying. I can pay others to do it for me but then need to deal with the services too much and they disrupt my life, need to adapt to them etc. In general, I prefer to invest in stuff that does not require care in that way.

        I must say that partly all this is driven by avoidant elements in my personality. I think that is behind the ingrained minimalism in significant ways; it extends into many relationships as well but I still do like to maintain 1-2 close friendships at a given time, without those I feel my life is lacking. Usually it is with people we have any similarities, especially similar personal values.

        1. Dorion,

          Interesting comment. Thank you for sharing.

          I agree about the maintenance on large homes. I fantasize about downsizing my home as well as my possessions but I enjoy having many rooms to choose from where I might spend some time.

      7. Hi kel,

        Thanks for sharing your experience. I know they are not loyal, but I don’t expect/need them to be, I also wouldn’t describe myself as a very loyal employee. I most frequently work with those people transiently, on particular projects, and the reason I like it is because they are very driven, productive and are usually much more skilled at promoting and pushing ideas and projects. I know that they steal ideas and make them their own but I honestly often don’t mind at all, even if they never credit me, my reward is seeing the idea at work and not the recognition. I can see very clearly when they do this with my ideas and can be happy that someone uses them because I myself often wouldn’t, at least not in the same way. I like my ideas but am attached to only a very few of them (usually new ones), and those I don’t share and work the same way with others.

        The best place I see how mischievous these individuals can be is when it comes to anonymous, indirect exertion of power, e.g. in my field reviewing other people’s work, grants, tasks that involve a lot of political maneuvers and room for manipulation without much accountability. They are never supportive just for the sake of it, without own self-interest in helping someone, even if it only includes gathering followers and admirers. I’ve been stabbed in the back before and it was very clear how and why but I’ve built my professional world in such a way that I am never very highly dependent upon anyone or when I am, I only integrate loosely. The one I was talking about in the earlier post has been by far the longest, but I think only because we never collaborated very directly. He has a ton of money, connections, social skills, whatever resources, also the ambition and power to do things with ideas and suggestions I would never take beyond the intellectual level. It can be fun for me to see what comes of them and I don’t need to be involved or acknowledged to enjoy that. The guy I was talking about, for example, even supported me in some pretty serious critical endeavors, I could use his name and power to succeed. Another reason I like interacting with some of them is because I often feel we are intellectual equals, including they understand other people and behavior from the outside, not from the inside. That cognitive empathy HG often mentions – I like that feature.

        The mirroring is interesting. I think it can also work because many people want to be associated with high achievers, so if there is the sense that one is understood and accepted in their league, it feels like validation and feeds into self-esteem. I completely agree, this is very important to be aware of and not go blind. For example, I often find myself latching onto certain things HG says on this blog, especially his thinking style, ways of structuring and sharing information, logic – I sense similarities. Even some of the emotional patterns and parts of the detachment. But I am sure a lot of this is projection – I pick up certain things, stories etc and infuse them with my own whatever, then feel attracted because usually these are things I value. I think sometimes we create the illusion of the mirror for ourselves with selective focus. I am sure this phenomenon plays a role in the Golden Period with a narc, when that feeling of merging is so strong. It is actually a very interesting method of introspection to observe these patterns. Best from a safe distance of course and when the real roles and motives are clear. Getting involved with narcs in a way where boundaries are blurred is absolutely a terrible idea.

        1. Hi Dorion,

          It sounds like you’re keeping your distance and know how to handle it.

          But the part where you say you like interacting with them because you feel like you’re intellectual equals – is the part that concerns me. That’s the mirroring thing. It was a big reason why I enjoyed talking to him, because he got me, he was sharp, he was quick and understood my sense of humor and could give it back. I enjoyed it. But that’s not who he is with other people. He’s a chameleon, he matches whoever he’s with. It’s like a sport, he’s good at it.

          Like everyone says, Run, Don’t Walk from a narcissist- but especially a greater. They are so good at being convincing and they enjoy the whole game they’re playing.

          I don’t know if you’re saying the guy is a greater because he’s self-aware, but if he is, then he knows what he’s doing and he enjoys fooling others.

          Anyway, you sound very strong, just keep in mind you’re playing with fire. 😊

      8. Kel,

        Thanks for you concern and advice, very appreciated. It is useful for me to remember that a lot of the sense of intellectual equal grounds may be an illusion. In fact, the guy I mentioned for example – I know he is not some sort of super creative genius, especially when it comes to abstract things. His intellect manifests the most in his strategies and how he understands and uses the system to succeed and to make his grander projects and vision succeed. But on paper, he comes across as a pioneer in many ways because he has good eyes for timely things that will be very relevant and will attract great attention in the near and far future, and acts on them quickly. He is also very good at attracting allies and managing his community. I believe he is a Greater because it is obvious to me that he knows what he is doing, what drives him and he fits the descriptions of Greaters HG shares very well. I haven’t used the Narc Detector on him, he is not that important for me. How do you know your coworker was a Greater?

        I doubt that I could completely avoid narcissists unless I avoid some of my own interests. But I don’t think it is specific to me – considering how common narcs are in the world, how could we avoid them really? I think we should absolutely avoid too much, close, vulnerable and especially personal engagement with them, that is for sure. A bit like being on this blog. But it is always good to be vigilant and I do have some tendency to take too high risks, to feel invincible etc. I have been burned due to my own risk taking before and quite seriously, just not with narcs. But it is always useful to be more aware of contingencies, so thanks again.

        1. Dorion,

          True, narcissists are excellent at just about everything they do. They’re quite impressive, and they seem to do things so quickly and easily with precision.

          And no, you can’t avoid them because they’re everywhere. We just have to avoid getting ensnared and caught up with them. That’s easy with lessers because they’re so obvious, a little harder with mid’s because they’re so clingy, but I gotta say, it’s probably impossible with greater’s. My boss for nine years had some marital problem years ago that brought his wife’s brothers into town and I believe there was an intervention where he learned of his narcissism. It’s something he would skirt around, but not openly discuss. And he’s a malicious narcissist too, but most people don’t know that side of him, they’re only swept up by his charm. He doesn’t even have to open his mouth to melt a woman he just met, he just looks at her like she’s the best thing he’s ever seen, and she’s his, lol. But I knew him for nine years, and kind of felt like family with him, and I was always getting after him about things he did. He was very composed and easy going, and he used people to get what he wanted without them realizing until it was too late. He became president of the region in the company, creating a new title, by romancing another manager, and then taking over her job out from under her, combining it with his. She didn’t even mind at first until he dropped her all of a sudden. He also gets vengeance if it’s worth it to him, slowly and patiently, years later. He’s just very charming though, helps everyone who asks him to, just a great guy. That’s his image, and it makes you overlook all the abuse he tears you down with- jokingly of course- but damaging mentally and emotionally never the less – it’s how they keep you ensnared and engaged.

          I’m surprised that you found your way to the blog without being a narcissist’s victim. Interesting that a relationship with a ‘normal’ would bring you here, and perhaps we’ll hear more about it from you. I’m pretty sure I’ve only ever been in relationships with narcs, and I’m looking forward to an empath or normal the next time.

      9. Kel,

        Re:
        “True, narcissists are excellent at just about everything they do. They’re quite impressive, and they seem to do things so quickly and easily with precision.”

        I think some are excellent and impressive, absolutely not all. I have personally also found some of the sloppiest, least competent people among narcs. Lots of hypocrisy. One of them was a psychotherapist I was seeing for a while several years ago, I think a typical Mid-Ranger (see more below). I think most want to be excellent, unique and effective because they create their identity around these things. Sometimes it happens to mix with true talent, skill, and a very appropriate domain they find for themselves to operate and then they truly excel/stand out but, in my opinion, that is the minority. We may notice those more and often use as examples especially when it comes to public figures because they are known for something, but I think the majority is very mediocre.

        Your boss does sound like he has some talent and the charm does help. I am personally not very receptive/reactive to charm in general if it is empty, but I value competency, efficiency, creativity etc. It still does not mean I will fall for anyone easily – may notice them, but it takes a lot to really engage me on a personal level, or even convince me to collaborate professionally. I can easily say ‘no’ to people, in part because I am rather selfish myself. Will do things when they interest me and as long as that interest lasts.

        Just to clarify a misunderstanding, my post didn’t go into my history. It is true that I’ve never had a significant relationship with a narcissist. The closest I’ve had to being a “victim” was with a therapist I saw for a few months – it was one of the oddest interpersonal experiences I’d ever had, absolutely one of a kind in my life, very frustrating and annoying in the end but also intriguing as I had never been that close to such behavior. The other narcs I’ve encountered via my work or just see existing around. My father had some strong narc traits but definitely not NPD, he was a good, fair man overall. Once I had a very brief affair with a narc colleague but I got out almost as soon as it started as his behavior became highly repulsive very quickly and my interest in him was rather misguided to start with.

        The more significant factors that brought me to this blog:
        (1) I work in the mental health field and am interested in many different conditions. I get a lot of my information from academic perspectives, but I really like to sometimes “make my hands dirty” and step into the reality of it for a while. One of my favorite ways of doing this is reading and participating in mental health-related online forums – I have a long history, Narcsite is just one of them, the most recent one.
        (2) What I was referring to as “being burned” wasn’t about a relationship, it was a serious substance addiction. One of the elements that intrigues me about the narc-empath dynamic is its resemblance to other addictions and I am pleased to see on this blog that HG shares that view. It is hard to miss but many people won’t make this parallel.
        (3) I’ve also been analyzing my own narcissistic traits and this blog is very useful for that – simply just reading and comparing what I see (because HG makes it so explicit and practical) with my history and patterns. One way this interest started was about 10 years ago, when I was doing professional personality tests. One of them told me that I was moderately high on psychopathic traits and that got my interest because I had never looked at myself that way before. But then dug into it more and I understand why. I also have a history about people being dissatisfied with my level of empathy, more from my youth as, like HG, I’ve learned from observation and experience what it is about and how to use it, how to actually find and bring it out of myself, not merely fake it. But it is definitely limited. Being on a blog so packed with Empaths is interesting and a good lesson. I admire the strength displayed because it is a very different kind of strength from the ones I have. From all I know currently, I think I am a “normal”, but probably tending a bit to the narc side more than the empath side, at least sometimes. I am convinced I don’t have a personality disorder just traits, some stronger than others. But there are many aspects of narcissism I do not relate to at all.

        I think pretty much all of my significant romantic relationships were with other normals. The prospective of empath-normal is interesting and something that came up in my life in recent years because my best friend of the past ~5 years is an Empath, and a pretty hardcore one. He had a level of romantic interest in me in the beginning, transiently because I didn’t share it, so we focused what was shared. But we discussed the possibility of such connection between us (and in general, between people with our personality traits) extensively. Briefly, it would definitely take a lot of work and patience on both ends to make that sort of relationship work because we have very different values and needs in many domains pertaining to romantic relationships. I think it is not impossible and I may consider it with someone else in the future, but with this guy friendship is very satisfying. If you had so many relationships with narcs, I imagine a normal would be a breeze in comparison in terms of problem areas, but perhaps not as attractive at start.

        1. Dorion,
          Maybe I’ve been around different types of narcs than you, but I’m floored often times by how well they do things and how quickly. Some are perfectionists. They like nice things and they have an image, they have high standards.

          I used to think dating normals or empaths wouldn’t be as exciting after narcs. But I see it just the opposite now, because I see all the problems constantly whirling around inside and outside narcissists, and it’s not attractive at all. Relationships with narcs means you live well, but there’s always something missing, and uncertainty, and things you’re going to keep hidden and not share with family or friends. Normals are just people, like everyone else, but without a host of issues like narcissists have. My narcissists seemed to choose me, so I look forward to weeding past them, to find real people.

          I can see that in you, as you’ve described yourself, because you have a very strong personality that I think seems like you’re a normal edging toward something else.

        2. Dorion:

          Very interesting comment. Please explain:
          1) Why is it interesting and a good lesson being on a blog with so many empaths?
          2) What is the difference here to other blogs you are on? Also relative to empaths.
          3) What is your definition of hard core empath?

          Thanks

          1. Njfilly,

            1) Because I am not usually around many empaths in my life, historically I tend to both work and socialize with people who share my interests, and those interests are not the most typical empath catches. Of course there are some, like everywhere, but I also more typically tend to gravitate toward people who are in my range of the spectrum, when it comes to closer association. My best friend now is an empath, but he is really the only one of that kind I interact with frequently and deeply outside of this blog. It’s been a very interesting experience for both of us, how positively we affect each-other and learn very valuable things through the friendship and as we dissect and analyze everything (he’s also very introspective but in a much less detached way than I am). I met him one one of the forums several years ago. Good lesson, because I have a goal to improve my own empathy and communication skills involving that and it is very helpful to see the naturals.
            2) The difference is primarily the topic – all of the groups I have engaged in have different main themes. This is my first more intense participation in one about narcissism. Also the format – the other sites are more typical forum formats, which is definitely easier to navigate for commenters.
            3) It just meant to emphasize how strong his empathic characteristics are, nothing else meaningful.

          2. Dorion,

            Thank you for your response. Very interesting. I have only just learned about narcissists and empaths so this is all new to me, and I have no idea who I have encountered or interacted with most; either empaths or narcissists. Either in the past or currently.

      10. Kel,

        I more just think that I have very high standards myself and have been around many people with similar values ~my whole life, that’s how I probably see more diversity and many less than excellent narcs. My own standards and perfectionism are things I’ve been trying to work on because they often slow me down, make me feel insecure and second guess myself, and hard to stand up to it on a consistent basis. I also don’t tend to idealize people (at least at this point of my life), so pretty much never see anyone as super special, phenomenal and what have you – for me, we are all people with both lots of strengths and weaknesses and one individual’s performance also usually varies a lot over time. Some are better at hiding their issues and show less vulnerability for sure but that has its own costs.

        I think if you are past that phase when you were primarily excited by intensity and romantic ideals, you would probably indeed find a non-narc more satisfying, not only because of the lack of manipulation and abuse but also because of a different type of realistic maturity and sense of security. There are many intense, engaging people among normals and empaths as well, it is perhaps just more augmented with reality and would give you less of the illusion of that Golden Period.

        I am strong and quite resilient in some ways but not so much in other ways, definitely have my insecurities and issues, not even just a few. I think we all do. I often chuckle at the term “normal” we use here to describe someone who is neither a narc nor an empath because I have so many highly unconventional features and issues with fitting into majority that it feels everything but normal. I definitely would not assume that a person who identifies as a normal on HG’s narc-empath spectrum has necessarily less issues, including interpersonal ones. We may have less around the characteristics of those two poles but the psyche and human nature is immensely complex… seemingly endless room for challenges.

        I think I’m going to step away from Narcsite for a while because I’ve been here too much in the past two days and am not getting things done :)

  5. I don’t post on here much and apologies in advance for the long post, and did have a consultation with HG at the beginnig of the year, which was really useful. I don’t care what school of narc he is, but if there was one he would graduate with a masters from the school of the bat shit crazies.

    I did armed with knowledge stop seeing him at the beginning of the year, and stupidly went back a couple of months later – hell hath no fury like a narcissist you have dropped and then gone back to – it was horrendous. He enlightned me about his other friends, I got spat on during one encounter, not too mention he looked like a complete fruitcake during the act.

    I was always kept away from friends and family, but strangely him being a restaurant owner, had no problem with me going there to start with, but when he became even more manipulative I was told to text first.
    I was always told to text (not call), which someimes I did ignore, and he did fail to control me, I did not see him when he demanded, I orchestrated it so that it was conveninent for me, I told him about my past relationships (not many), told him of the amazing weekends and holidays that I go on, and how successful business was.

    I knew from day one he was after my money / assets and my inheritance from the moment I met him. He never asked for money, but conversations were always aimed that I should go and enjoy it with someone else. He never future faked, said that he did not want a relation ship yet was separated / working with his much older wife.

    Yet after all of this the ‘Golden Period’ was short but then I suspected his BS from the beginning, yet this went on and off for about a year. I saw him for the evening and night about every 2 or 3 weeks, yet at the beginning of the year when he was short of money this was about 2 times a week, I never spent a penny on him to this day.

    The narc was an acquaintance / family friend for years, and tried to hook up with me a couple of years ago, but I was not interested perhaps this is why the golden period was so short.

    We are now no contact after a huge falling out a couple of months ago, yet I dont want to see him, I just feel sorry for him – I received a malign text hoover last week, and did not respond, he is now blocked.

    My question is HG if I may would the narc hide a ‘candidate IPSS’, and would he spend the whole night if just a DSL just every few weeks?

      1. A massive thanks HG, your site no only offers clarity to the extent of what we are dealing with, it give an honest outlook to the way we are treated and perceived by these individuals. I can honestly say the fog is lifting, I have not reacted to the nasty message, just blocked and am truly the happiest I have been in a year, not to mention this blog / consultation has stopped me becoming manipulated even more but I was too savvy to get ripped off by this idiot, it is now job done!

  6. Mine lasted 12 months – last time he said that he was really hooked for a year and he added that I have been lucky they rarely make it more than 3 months …
    I was thinking to myself – because they saw through way before me …

  7. “it creates a place which the victim strives to return to (and which the narcissist will reinstate if he or she sees fit)”

    You can flip a switch and bring it back in an instant if you want to. So frustrating!

    1. Mine lasted a very long….16 months. The current supply I guess was his side supply the whole time we were together. I just found out all the truth this last september. I wasn’t discarded. I broke it off with him….about 10 breakups. I am an empath..recently revealed in therapy. .and I am educated…I was an ICU RN…I almost lost my career, home, family over my Narc. He drained me physically, emotionally, mentally, and financially. I had to go to rehab for alcohol…twice, I am being monitored in my practice, I am back with my ex husband now, and I am healing and very blessed. I exposed my narc to his current supply…he blocked me on facebook and did the silent treatment. My closure came from his girlfriend. We fought via text, “triangulation” but she is a nasty trashy girl with no education, felon herself, and honestly someone I would not compete with for him and I shouldn’t have to or had to. She don’t care….and knows who he is and stays. He discarded her to come back to me and she went back to him after I had enough. This guy is toxic and a low spectrum narc. She had no job, money, or home. He is a felon too. The red flags were there. My intuition…I am grateful for got me out finally. He recHe was highly charming, and I tried to see the good in him but he had a lot of chaos in his life, baby mama drama…etc. I found you because I read your article on the supernova empath. That’s what I did, I would blast that false ego and block him, call him on his bullshit and lies, and he would rage. Then play the victim. He recently unblocked me on facebook and left his messenger open so I verbally attacked him about his trashy whore, and acted like him. Then he deactivated his account. He makes me sick.

Leave a Reply to Chihuahuamum Cancel reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.