Conoscere Il Narcisista

Here

Advertisements

472 Comments

  1. Hi all , just read through this post and comments was away for a few weeks.
    I don’t mean to cause any offence but I have a headache after reading the comments
    A lot of squabbling and dissecting about nothing
    Very boring reading for a monolingual person
    If this keeps up the translations would be complete in the year 2100
    I honestly think HG would be better to get a team of professionals outside to do this

    Just my observation

    Kiki

      1. Miaowing here HG
        😊
        Seriously I know everyone means well and fair dues to those of you with helping , but it’s going in loops and loops of dissecting

        I’m obviously biased as I haven’t any other languages to help with 🙁
        There needs to be a structural do it approach less dissecting the what’s etc believe me as an Empath I love the dissecting of emotional matters but a language project just needs concrete movement to develop

        Again I mean no offence everyone

        Kiki❤️

        1. Kiki, no offense taken on my part at least, I agree with you. I’m not a dissecting mind, I’m more synthetic. My gut tells me all of this enthusiasm will fade off as soon as we start actually translating so don’t worry. Meanwhile just ignore the thread. I do ignore a lot of threads that I don’t feel identified with, like the ones about co-parenting for example. Not that I don’t think they aren’t important, but I am not a parent, so…

    1. Kiki

      I don’t know you, we haven’t been interacting on this blog before (I think) – just some info for you : HG seems to have some professionals on board, and professional translation is very expensive – you can see from the Project Mercury post what the scale is that HG is aiming for. Readers who are involved here do this for free and several of us, too, are professionals who would charge accordingly if it wasn’t for a good cause. Let us have our analyses over “nothing”, the linguistic debates are part of our reward.

      No need to read here if it bores you. But you commented all the same, so perhaps there’s something that you can contribute. Don’t feel left out, this thread has English only commenters and I for one like talking to them too.

      1. That’s no problem LC , I have been here a few years , I come and go sometimes spend a lot of time on the blog but when things get super busy I might not be here for weeks at a time .

        Totally understand your point I try to read quite a few threads when I’m here love the banter ❤️ but your right this one isn’t for me
        I would love to contribute but due to my insane time consuming job I would be lying if I said I had the time

        Fair play to everyone involved

        Kiki

        1. Kiki

          “Wow everyone great work
          Afraid I cannot help at all languages were my poorest subjects at school. “

          Your comment made me think of my English teacher who told me that I was crap at English (my second language) and should drop the subject. (I did.)

          Thinking of teachers I wish again (as I do often) that HGs info had been out there during my school days. This is not the place to bash narcissist teachers though because HG is one of the best teachers I’ve had…

          1. Hi LC

            Yes my teachers were fine but I veered more towards science and maths , I love chemistry. I just couldn’t concentrate on languages at all so I struggled with it big time .

            Kiki❤️

  2. To the multilingual team

    I only saw this comment ( I’m quoting a snippet) from EB now, already this thread is getting way too unwieldy.

    EBs suggestion:

    “HG has put a lot of effort in creating his own terminology which is part of his legacy. IMO, investing time in creating a terminology database for other languages is very important and not only to ensure consistency.
    All these terms and expressions will be used for his present and future work. If poorly chosen, his translated work will not be properly understood by new readers who have not read his original work. Many professional translators do not take/have the time to this.

    In order to be able to work as a team, I thought about creating a Glossary in a Spreadsheet with access granted to translators/collaborators.

    I am sure there are different possibilities to do this. One of them is Google Docs.
    Google Docs documents are stored on Google drive (not on the owner’s local computer). The owner creates a document and decides who he will share his file(s) with. It will not be a Public file. Among other things, the Owner can prevent editors from changing access and… ”

    I think this is a superb idea, EB.

    Terminology is the key – we’re actually all agreed on that.

    And there’s actually no better help for a translator to have the community provide input – not least because translation is language art in its own right.

    E B

    I’d contribute to such a spread sheet, and I think this could really work.

    HG said he’d mail instructions soon, so maybe he’s already got a solution but if not I can image this could work really well.

    Here is one more thing to think about:

    As we can see from this thread already projects such as these can ruffle egos. I also saw this during the Harry Potter translation project. Egos will show – this is normal and to be expected. Best not to get too upset about it.

    If the community is involved in discussing the terminology then – to avoid too much frustration and people walking out – there needs to be clarity upfront about how the final decision for a term is reached.

    HG could give a specific person the authority to choose the most fitting term after discussions are closed.

    Or the community chooses the most fitting term by polling the best solution after discussions are closed.

    Polls are tricky and misleading if they include terms that are linguistically not OK and if people poll who have no sufficient knowledge of the target language.

    It could be done like this : the poll could include everything that the community suggests after the debate is closed. The person appointed by HG makes the decision which term is to be used using the poll results as a guide. Reasons could be given if the top poll result is rejected.

    Any remaining ego storms will blow over eventually 🙂

      1. HG: I thought that was beyond discussion – except you probably need linguistic advice as to what the best term is in the languages you’re not familiar with? And if communities are involved, they like to squabble. I’m just sharing experience from a translation project I was involved in to raise some points to think about. If everything is assigned to one person as it is in Italian you don’t get the problem obviously. ..

    1. LC, I’m gonna adopt the humble approach to this: I decline to offer my opinion on any term the translators of another language that I do not know will decide. For two reasons: 1) I cannot discern whether one term will be more accurate than another if I don’t know the language 2) I expect the same respect from other participants when we agree on a term in the target language I can work with. If anyone is free to comment anything without knowing, this, I’m afraid, will slow down the work and create confusion. I am on board for team working, but each team must work with their own language. Imagine the Russian team, which will be working with a completely different alphabet. Would I be able to contribute any opinions on the words they choose? I wouldn’t even dare say anything! The idea of the spreadsheet is a good one, but I would limit it to the members of each team and not to everyone in general as it can become counterproductive. Imagine you spend three weeks deciding on one term in German, finally you got one, and then I read it and say: “I found in the dictionary that this term is associated with such and such and I don’t think we should adopt it.” Wouldn’t you feel like killing me slowly at that moment? 😂

      1. SP

        Yes, I totally agree with all your points – would also limit the spreadsheet to a team that addresses a single language but it’s an approach that could work not just for German which is why addressed all. I’d do polls for the best term with a wider group though. If that is something HG wants to do, that is, I’m just raising some points to think about.

        1. LC, that sounds good. I have more problems with who is gonna be allowed to make judgments here after we do the whole work, not during. I’m not afraid of working with other translators, I’m afraid of the non-professional opinions. And I arrived to a Solomonic solution: whoever has a complaint about one of the translations already finished, will only be allowed to question someone’s work by sending out his/her own translation to be compared with the former one so that HG decides which one he likes the best. Otherwise this could be a constant cherry-picking on isolated words, without taking into consideration the whole context. I think it’s fair, because translating is a very time-consuming work and it is not nice to question the translator once he/she has already done the dirty work. Just out of professional courtesy.

          1. SP,

            With a platform like that which I suggested (i.e. gitlab or github) this is relatively easy to take care of. This whole project can be structured in small pieces, each article and each language can be a (sub)project of its own, rights can be assigned to each user for each project (read only or read-write), anybody with read rights can take a look and make suggestions, proposing their own version, but there will be only one main version for a language and very few will have rights to make changes in the main version. The glossary could be just a simple list in the English version, having separate translations in each language, as separate files, so, for example, the Italian and German translators won’t have to wait for each other or interfere with each other in any way when editing their language glossary version. And so on.

            Many things can be achieved with careful assignment of work pieces and rights of reviewing and editing for each piece, I think…

            Standardization is also really important (and I’m thinking of process standardization, not translation, which each translator should be able to do as they see fit). But, ideally, the process should be the same for everyone involved, as clear and simple as possible, regardless of language, expertise, timezone and so on. This way, if somebody quits at some point, anybody can take the place and continue with relative ease instead of having to take lots of time trying to figure out where the other has left.

            This seems to be a really big project, it’s not translating a single slim book, it’s about years and years of work on HG’s side, and he’s been quite prolific, I might say… 🙂

            Question – Does anybody know exactly what platform the Harry Potter translators were using?

            HG,
            If you have already decided for the platform to use, maybe it would be a good idea to start giving it a try with a few people, see if they like it, if they can get used to it, what problems might arise and so on. This way, when others will join, many issues will have already been taken care of.

            And a small remark – I’m not sure I will work on this project, first because I did not volunteer yet, second because I’m not sure my expertise is needed, third because I already have enough demands on my time. But, SP, there’s no better incentive for me to work on this project than the thought that I would be able to work with you (and hopefully others with same mindset as yours).

          2. Abe,
            “With a platform like that which I suggested (i.e. gitlab or github) this is relatively easy to take care of.”
            That sounds great.

          3. “But, SP, there’s no better incentive for me to work on this project than the thought that I would be able to work with you (and hopefully others with same mindset as yours).” Abe, right back at you!

          4. Abe

            This sounds great – also the trial run…
            The HP translation project was years ago but I’ll see if I can find it and get back to you.

          5. Abe

            The HP site has been taken off the net but I found a contact, wrote to them and am waiting to hear back. While I was checking this out I saw that ca. 3000 ppl contributed (this is just one language) – while they were at it an online glossary evolved with detailed and carefully crafted explanations of terms and their backgrounds.

            I think that this kind of project will attract many new readers. First because of the content, second because involving readers creatively is attractive in its own right.

            I think a detailed glossary is probably also very interesting for an English speaking readership.

          6. LC,

            If possible, please try and find out not only what platform they used, but also as much as possible about the process they used. The process details might be even more important than the platform, since for sure they encountered many many problems along the way and they solved them somehow.

            There’s no need to reinvent the wheel if somebody already did it…

          7. Abe

            “There’s no need to reinvent the wheel if somebody already did it…”

            Well stated… Would you be ok if I emailed HG the contact (once and if I get it) so he can pass it on to you and you can ask the right questions? – it’s obvious that you’re the expert here?

            The problems I saw (and raised here) were from the perspective of a simple user, not from behind the scenes. The way they did it was that anyone could contribute, only those who really made a visible effort (didn’t use Google translate) could then download the entire finished translation after it was completed. There was a minimum you had to contribute and you could hand in as much as you wanted. You never found out if your translation was used for the finished product.

            If I remember correctly your first effort was ranked according to the quality you provided. If you produced a certain number of pieces, 2 or 3 I think, and these all ranked high, you could sign up for quality review – which meant that you yourself could rank the quality of a given piece by another translator. The rankings / reviews were double blind. I’m not so sure anymore but I think you got two rankings from two different people. The rankings were like school grades: A publishable, B very good to E start again and please forget about Google translate. The more input you provided the more responsibility you could take on behind the scenes – but I don’t know much about the way those processes were handled because I only translated and reviewed.

            The discussion board had wonderful threads about the translated content, many a poll for solutions, but also many a thread about translators complaining about reviewers’ expertise, as in how dare they give me a B when I’m clearly an A.

            The latter is perhaps not so much an issue here because here the author himself is involved, he’s boss, his authority and decisions are respected (or we wouldn’t be part of it in the first place).

            In the HP project Rowling was not involved.

          8. LC,

            If HG has already chosen the tools and methodology, I see no need to do this. I’m not sure what the status is on this front.

            If he hasn’t yet, than we could pursue this line of discussion, if he also agrees. But I would need input from him and from a translator, because I don’t know what is needed or what would be the most relevant questions to ask from the end user’s point of view. I can most probably understand the technicalities behind though, which is of course helpful and needed, but not sufficient.

            The process that you have described, with double blind reviews and a grading and ranking system seems to me a bit convoluted for the size of the teams that I assume will work on HG’s stuff (which I guess will be just a handful of people for each language). This does not mean though that the software the HP community used cannot be tailored for what is needed here…

          9. All,

            Another thing I’d like to add on privacy and security.
            It might become necessary to start exchanging emails at some point. Or maybe the platform will allow email exchanges and it won’t be possible to turn that off.

            Due to the sensitive nature of the project at hand, I suggest everybody who gets involved in this should create a new, separate email address especially for this, and use it exclusively for this purpose.
            Maybe even a different user name than the one they have here, on the blog.

            When such data is shared with so many people (and this project might get shared with a lot of people), there is always the risk of a security breach. Your email might get into the wrong hands.
            You should be prepared at any time to get rid of that email address and create a new one if needed.

            Also, do not share personal identifiable information with anybody! Not even with HG, I might add.

            It might be a pain in the ass to proceed as described, but it is safer…

          10. Again, this is all under consideration as part of the project, but thank you for your input nonetheless, Abe, it is always sensible to ensure precautions are taken with regard to information and identity. I take the issue of confidentiality very seriously something I was discussing with my lawyers only this morning.

          11. This is good to know, HG, and I’m really glad you have already been thinking about this.
            Thank you.

            In the end though, it is each user’s responsibility to take care of their own data. And when engaging in discussions with each other you will not be able to watch over them anymore.
            I think it is better for each of them to take care from the beginning to approach this in a careful and sensible manner.
            Enthusiasm will be high, I guess, and mistakes can be made by over-enthusiastic people…

          12. Wise words Abe and not that I am suggesting that this is the case with the gallant team of translators, but I always advise people never to interact with one another off blog. Some people have failed to adhere to this and found themselves on the receiving end of a narcissist, despite being warned. Only last week I had to deal with a reader who had found themselves on the receiving end of the manipulative behaviour of a Mid Range Narcissist and realised too late after interacting with the individual off blog.

          13. I have no credentials to help in translations – not my thing. But a HUGE applause for everybody who has offered to help HG spread the word!

            I think you need a translation CRM system that allows one master user and numerous junior users. Master user of course is HG.

            Each person has their own log in details. No need for emails to be sent – it’s all discussed on a notes section on each book to translate. People can remain anonymous, HG oversees all notes as the master user. All Italian translators remain in the Italian sector – all Germans in the German and so on. HG dictates permissions – so complete control over his work and who has access to it.

            A normal CRM system such as ACT or Goldvision (although these can be specific to sector) for eg could work (But there must be translator ones out there). When there are a lot of clients (In HG’s case books are the clients) they can be separated – and each book updated with a flow chart of notes – who wrote what when. It’s all precise. HG can nip in and out of countries as and when he so chooses to answer questions and follow the progress made – daily or hourly if he wanted to.

            Two of the most important things 1) is protecting HG’s work, identity, expertise and lexicon.
            2) is protecting each translator and still maintaining no contact off the blog for safety purposes.

            *I wouldn’t use spreadsheets – you have to think of GDPR also. CRM system will keep everything secure and legal.
            *This is an investment – worth every penny for complete, confidential, legal and safe control.
            *A CRM system holds hundreds of clients, you have hundreds of books. You can sub-categorise into Countries – list all your books – appoint translators with varying permissions – and monitor the whole lot in real time.

            Maybe this is already what Abe is talking about, apologies if so Abe.
            Good Luck All 🙂

          14. PV,

            No, I was not thinking about a CRM system.
            So it’s very good that you pointed this out, it might be better suited for translating than what I suggested.

            I am talking from my area of expertise, which is software development. Code is text, so developers have long time searched for good ways to work with plain text in a collaborative, secure and easy to manage way. I think they’ve been doing a good job, especially lately, to establish best practices about this.
            In programming, every piece of information is versioned. I write something today, I can store all differences from existing code in a separate place, somebody else can review, suggest changes and when all good, it gets merged to the main repository. The history is always kept, so everybody knows at any time what has changed, when, why and by whom. If needed, changes can be reverted easily.
            This way of working can save your ass many times when problems arise with a particular version…

            However, I’m not sure it’s best suited for translations. I can see value for translations too, but I am no expert so I cannot say for sure if all this complex way of working is worth having.
            Another issue is that code is plain text (no formatting), while HG’s articles and books sometimes contain images and some formatting (bullets, spaces, bold text and so on), which is somehow described with (probably) quite simple metadata, but still this might be too much to handle for somebody who has never had to touch such metadata.
            On the other hand, plain text is also an advantage, since many tools out there can open and display simple text files and show differences between them, while there aren’t many tools that can do this on a (for example) Word file. Anybody with a keyboard and notepad can edit a plain text file.

            Anyway, I don’t want to get everybody bored with these technical details 🙂

            What’s important is that the best tool for the job is chosen, considering the level of complexity of the task, the need for easy navigation of file revisions, the ease of making reviews, and of course privacy and project management concerns (who’s working on what, why, what are the priorities, tracking of current status, when will something most probably be ready).

          15. Abe my son is a techy genius, I hear you. Especially about writing a specific bespoke programme which tracks users and work done, by whom and when ( I agree 100% that saves arses all the time!). An area of expertise I’m jealous of Abe! Expert you are!

            Maybe the CRM System could work and these are my reasons why. (Plus you can hit the ground running without a time delay in platform coding designing etc).

            Each book is a project
            CRM systems manage projects
            I use one on a daily basis to manage over 100 x multi million pound projects.

            The CRM will allow complete project management- project progress to be monitored, start, finish, on time, translators names on projects, notes to discuss and date/time stamped when changes are added or made. Subdivisions-countries, it will show all completed projects, highlight all those scripts that need attention in red (so HG doesn’t have to sift through the many notes if he doesn’t have time). A central location on the CRM holds all projects(books) and at a glance he knows what needs attention.

            Stats are offered to keep to target deadline or to simply monitor the time taken to translate. I’m a bit of a geek I like stats/graphs/pie charts/flow charts. This indicates a realistic timescale to completion.

            Each user can only see what HG allows. All can see notes so ideas/discussions can be had. These notes are kept on each individual project date timed and user stamped.

            It’s methodical. It’s precise. It keeps all users safe.

            I’ve used ACT and Goldvision, and although it’s a sales and marketing platform, I use it mostly to manage my projects… or quite frankly I’d be fucked!

            It’s down to HG. Whatever he decides to do will work I’m sure. Whatever CRM platform is used (if at all), it’s easy to control once set up. Only downside I can see in project management is the cost of the CRM. Worth every penny if all books are translated world wide and the reach to those who REALLY need HG’s help get it. That’s the reward.

            Thanks Abe for explaining your thoughts 🙂

          16. PV,

            Such systems already exist, no need to write them from scratch. You can check gitlab.com or github.com to see some features. But they are software development-oriented, hence plain text management and a bit techy, but very versatile, especially the paid versions. They just need to be configured appropriately.

            Your CRM suggestion sounds like being oriented towards people less tech-savvy, which is probably better suited for translating.

            I’m sure HG will choose the best approach, with minimal costs and high productivity. 🙂

          17. Abe

            I think quality control is absolutely necessary, but I’m sure HG has this covered.

            I think the way they did it then was quite smart though, since nobody was an “appointed” translator as such, meaning anyone could claim they were good, and this had to be verified. If you appoint some professionals to oversee the process however you can trust them to know what they’re doing. For the HP project they didn’t have all that so two readers was the right thing to do I think.

            Double blind just means it was anonymous, you didn’t know who checked your work und you didn’t know whose work you were checking. This will be the case for our situation too I guess, since you and HG already had your exchange about security and anonymity.

            As for the “grades”, this was important because of copyright issues. The motivation for many readers was to get hold of the entire book as soon as possible and before the official translation was out. Many readers depended on the translation. So they scraped together all the English they had to produce their piece of translation that would then allow them to access the German version. This was why the organisers were so strict about machine translation. Only if you had made a visible effort (it could be a rubbish effort but it had to be an effort) could you get access to the entire document. So a C meant you were in but it wasn’t good enough to be used for publication. E meant try again.

            I have no idea if HG has this kind of audience participation in mind as well or if he wants to encourage only professional translators.

            I’m not actually sure how much it would help to talk to the HP people, remember, this was ages ago, so the software side of things will have improved in leaps and bounds.

            Can imagine that many of the technical problems they were facing are laughable now.

            People will be people though, so the social side of things might not have changed so much!

            I will forward the contact to you or whomever via HG only if I get a prompt (provided I get an answer from them …)

            I’m definitely also thinking we should wait for instructions now – well I certainly will, I have no clue about how to set up content management systems…

        2. *** it’s a suggesting to avoid what I see is already happening. Of course HG may have a better idea but that’s what I could think of to be fair with everybody.

    2. LC,

      Thank you for you input. I have seen your other comments but not sure if all of them.
      If you don’t mind, I would prefer to wait until we have HG’s instructions because I am having difficulty following all the comments at the moment.

      Since I agree with your suggestion about looking for established terms in the psychology field, I shared what I had found.

      My suggestions are just that. I will not be involved in deciding what final term should be used. It is not my intention to upset anybody and hope nobody leaves.

      1. E. B.

        Fair enough. I think I might have worded things too dramatically. Obviously HG decides how he will use our input and what kind of input he wants. My point was that we can see it already now that such projects upset a few people – I wanted to draw attention to that (that this is to be expected
        ) – and that it’s good to think about it beforehand how drama is best avoided. That’s about it…

    3. LC,
      just out of interest. We’ve talked alot about the terminology, but how would you like the title of the blog itself to be translated? I like Verstehe den Narzissten, perhaps even Erkenne den Narzissten. I guess the literal Kenne den Narzissten is a possibility but does not convey the same meaning.

      1. Hi Désiree

        Great you’re back. I’ve been thinking about it too and couldn’t come up with anything good.

        I like “Erkenne den Narzissten”, sounds a bit wooden though, and there is the gender problem.

        How about:

        “Narzissmus erkennen”? (retains the gerund as well)

        There is a German blog and video channel (it’s actually not a dodgy one, the work is original, all sources are credited and there is also a link to HGs site for recommended reading) and that’s called “Narzissmus verstehen” – meaning that title is taken.

        We need to check the existing site names too I suppose…

        I think it needs something more juicy than Narzissmus erkennen

        Maybe something like

        Dem Narzissmus ins Auge sehen

        Mit den Augen des Narzissten

        Das Auge des Narzissmus

        Just fooling around….

        1. LC,
          I also like “Erkenne den Narzissten” because I view that as the most important thing to take away from HGs work and then understanding what that means as the second most important part. Since I always assumed HG to be the narcissist in question with regards to the title of his blog, I think choosing the masculine version would be okay. Generally, I would stick with “Der Narzisst” and “Der Empath” unless indicated otherwise in the entry or book. The reason for that is that most blogs take this approach and while I am not inclined to opt for something just because others, whose work is inferior to HGs, have done so, it makes the text much more readable than the alternative and people did not seem to take issue with having mostly the male version in texts. When it comes to adressing the different schools and cadres of Empaths, it might be perceived a bit differently. Personally, I dislike reading NarzistIn, Narzist*in, Narzist/in or EmpathIn, Empath*in, Empath/in, they’re all “stören den Redefluss” to me and add nothing of additional value. To me, it just looks wrong and I would deem it unnecessary.
          You stated an additional concern with regards to political correctness, given that this genderinclusive “trend” was started by the left leaning media. The way I see it, HG is far from PC and I remember him stating that some readers find his work too severe for them to read. My feeling would be that if someone truly were to draw the line at genderinclusive speech and possibly be offended with an all masculine approach to these nouns, they could also be one of the people who can’t stomach HGs work either way.
          So generally, I’d go masculine unless indicated otherwise, perhaps with the exception of the schools and cadres of Empaths, if we are to assume that there would be a predominately female readership and they would find it easier to identify themselves with these articles if provided with the female noun. Although that might be debatable, I know it would not concern me, for example.

      2. Desirée,
        I am really glad to see you are back!
        Like I said to LC, in my case I’d rather wait until I hear from HG to work with the team.

  3. It is inspiring to see so many people sharing their time and skills to assist so that others can benefit from this work. To put aside whatever personal feelings one has regarding HG or narcissists in general in order to have the work itself be the focus and to be a part of having it reach those who would otherwise not be able to benefit speaks volumes about the character of the people involved. Not everyone is involved in this particular project of translation, but we can look on with pride while contributing in whatever other areas that we are able to such as spreading the word and providing support to one another. What a community. Hats off to HG’s for creating this place and to all of you who make it something I continue to be proud to be a part of.

  4. Thought about possiblities for the most difficult to translate terms:

    Contagion Empath – Angesteckter Empath (send help.)

    Proximate Fuel – Unmittellbarer Treibstoff
    as opposed to
    Thought Fuel – Gedanklicher Treibstoff

    Hoover by Proxy – Stellvertrender Sog
    This one really shows how Staubsaugen does not cut it as it is too close to trivial household chores whereas Sog is much more menacing.

    Shelf Intimate Partner Secondary Source – Intimpartner Sekundärquelle im Regal

    Candidate Intimate Partner Secondary Source – Intimpartner Sekundärquelle kandidierend
    I’d go with the verb instead of the noun here because it indicates the ongoing process which works better. Also makes it sounds like you’re running for office, which can be rather apt.

    Input is appreciated

    1. “Input is appreciated”

      Ok here goes :

      Contagion Empath – Überbordender Empath

      Proximate Fuel – Unmittellbarer Treibstoff

      Thought Fuel – Gedankentreibstoff

      Hoover by Proxy – Stellvertreter-Hoover

      Shelf Intimate Partner Secondary Source – Geparkte Intimpartnerin sekundäre Quelle

      Candidate Intimate Partner Secondary Source – Kandidierende Intimpartnerin sekundäre Quelle

      ???

      1. LC,
        I just laughed at “Geparkte Intimpartnerin” I think the car analogy works great in this case.
        Überbordener Empath – how about Empfangender Empath? Überbordened might be associated with something “boiling up” and is close to the Geyser Cadre.
        Perhaps Hochsensibler Empath? I have read Hochsensibel being described as someone who takes on others emotions as if they where their own and have trouble to know the difference.

        1. Désiree

          Hochsensibler Empath is wonderful for Contagion !

          It’s what it is and no nonsense. Best solution so far, I find

          1. LC and Desirée,

            re “Hochsensibler Empath is wonderful for Contagion”

            There is a difference between High Sensitive People (HSP) and Contagion Empath. Not all HSPs are Contagion Empaths.

            I understand that by ‘Contagion’ HG meant *Emotional Contagion*.
            If so, there is already a definition in German.

            *Gefühlsansteckung* (which has been translated into Englisch as ’emotional contagion’) ist ein Begriff aus der Psychologie, der eine Form der emotionalen Übertragung beschreibt.

            Der Terminus ist 1913 von Max Scheler genannt und analysiert worden, verwendet wird er häufig seit 1994, als er als Übersetzung des Hatfield-Buchtitels Emotional contagion bekannt wurde.
            https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefühlsansteckung

          2. E.B.
            I agree that a highly sensitive person is not necessarily a contagion empath, which is why this could work as a distinction, provided sufficient explanation is given, which I am sure will be the case once HG posts his entries about the contagion. I would argue that any hsp would at least have a contagion empath element, given that from what I’ve read, this seems to be a determining factor of this condition.
            Would you then say that Gefühlsangestecker Empath would be a better translation than Angesteckter Empath or Hochsensibler Empath?

          3. Desirée,

            I added what I had found about ‘emotional empathy’ because LC wrote:
            “We need to research German medical as well as self help literature on narcissism to see what the competing and /or already established terms are.”
            I agree with her and shared what I had found.

            Your first translation -Angesteckter Empath- was good.

            Now I understand why you wanted to change to Hochsensibler Empath (HSP). You wrote to LC:
            “I have read Hochsensibel being described as someone who takes on others emotions as if they where their own and have trouble to know the difference.”
            I am afraid the author got it wrong. That is actually the Contagion Empath (and not HSP).

            If you wish, you can google “Differences between Empaths and HSP”.

            A Contagion Empath is not the equivalent to High Sensitive People (HSP).
            Some HSP are Contagion Empaths but not all Contagion are HSP.

          4. E. B.

            Thank you heaps for the Schelerreference! That’s really good stuff. I realised soon after I posted suggestions, along with SP, that we can’t do this without checking each and every term, to see what’s already established: which terms are used by professionals in the field discarded by HG, which are inventions by people outside of the established discourse – the ones HG uses too (and which might be already translated) , and which are the non established ones where does HG offer a variant, and what’s added by him.

            This means reading other narc theory but it should be fun work… Could probably sped up a lot if HG provided his reading list!

          5. You don’t need to read others, but we are gonna have to. Consider it a means to an end, in a Machiavellian fashion.

          6. Yes we do. As we will also need to contrast the terminology used in your former translations to keep consistency. The end justifies the means. And the end is perfection. Don’t you want perfection, HG?

          7. Former translations? Do you mean my work that’s already been translated? If so, that’s obviously sensible but LC was referring to what she understood as my previous reading, not my translated dork.

          8. HG, let me explain myself. I will use an example I mentioned a few days ago, “gaslighting.” As we know, the term came from one of the manipulative techniques one of the characters used in the homonymous film. This term was adopted from the popular culture by the medical community and now it is used when dealing with psychological abuse. If you are a good translator, you are already familiar with the target language and cultures that speak it. In Spanish, you should know the title of the film was translated as “luz de gas,” (a literal translation). But that is not enough. You need to confirm that, as it happened in English, the translation of the film is the same expression used in the medical community. To that purpose, you need to have a look at different books or articles on psychological abuse. Not because we believe they are more accurate than your work, but because you don’t want your translator to go all creative and inspired making up another term and creating confusion, when there already exists one that everyone understands and identifies with that form of abuse. Now, a different story is the word “fuel.” You are the only expert that refers to narcissistic nurture as fuel. That makes you unique and different from the rest, and it should be translated as fuel in the other language too, in this case, “combustible” in Spanish. The difference here is that you are the only one who offers this approach, while “gaslighting” is not used exclusively by you. I hope this clarifies my punctual justification for some little heresy…

          9. E. B.

            Dunno where my response to you went, perhaps my phone played up. Thank you so much for your Scheler reference! I’m taking back the Hochsensibler E.

            Do you really like Angesteckter Empath?

            It sounds like “deseased Empath” to me.

            I like Gefühlsangesteckter Empath…

            Perhaps there’s something more creative?

            Something like :

            Der Gefühlsschwamm?

            How do you all feel about gender inflections?

          10. HG

            Re: your reading list: this may have been a misunderstanding: you say in some works that you base your insight on reading, observation and the interaction with your good doctors. With reading list I meant those books that aided your understanding and that contributed to your view of narcissism. Those works might have been from within the professional field or from the lay community. If there are any that you remember that made an impression (good or bad or something in between) it would be helpful if you let us know which.

            If we knew those it might be easier to locate the best German equivalents – it would also help avoiding terms that others might be using and you don’t want to use because their use is different from yours etc.

            We were speaking about cultural differences earlier – I have found that people socialised in the German education system care a lot more about cleanly defined concepts and theoretical frames than do people from within the Anglo-American system. When I say Germans care more then this is not as regards the thinking behind something but as regards the presentation of it. Anglo-American presentation tends to place emphasis on readability and accessibility. German on respectability.

            Many readers will not care where terms and concepts come from in Germany either but many people will. I’m thinking not of the blog articles here but the books. This desire can be addressed in a short translator’s note or rather in a preface to the German edition written by you that you can add. But the terminology in blog and books is the same so it’s important to get it right from the start, even if the books are not on the agenda just as yet.

            But this is a new point, I asked originally because knowing the titles that play some role in your thinking would speed up the process as explained above …

          11. A person who is HSP is not a Contagion Empath, a Contagion is always both an Empath and HSP. We are aware of what emotions are ours and which are not. It is our awareness and attunement to the energy of life which is one reason why we are Contagions and not an SE, Co-dependent or Standard Empath.
            Yes we are infected by other yet we can infect others, to which we are aware of this happening.

          12. Wow everyone great work
            Afraid I cannot help at all languages were my poorest subjects at school .
            Kiki

    2. Dearest HG: A. I would set up a Methodology. For example, let’s look at Contagion Empath. First, 1) I would look to see if there is a cognate in German, etc. for Contagion. If not found, 2) I would define with you what the Technical Term Contagion means in this dynamic in English: Perhaps a receiver, of other people’s emotions. A receptive person, a receptor. And 3) now I would look at the German and see if there are words for receiver or receptor: 4) I checked Google for the German word for Receptor to present to Desiree, in this instance as a Designated Translator, to peruse and determine the validity: and the following was presented to me in translation: der Rezeptor
      der Empfänger
      receiver, recipient, consignee, addressee, receptor
      der Riezempfänger
      receptor. HG, B. I would follow a methodology such as this until the best fit was found. 1) I would prefer a cognate when possible, and if a cognate is not available, 2) I would prefer the translation that best fits the rhythym and symmetry of the original word or phrase as much as possible.

      1. Dearest HG: Next, I would follow the same Methodology for: Magnet Empath: 1) I would first Check for a Cognate in German, etc. In Google, the word for Magnet in German is: Magnet. Yay!!!!! 2) I would pass this translation on to, Desiree, a Designated Translator, for perusal and validity determination. Done. And so forth and so on…. Viable Cognates are a blessing in translating, a gift, in so many ways.

        1. Mary: [ `TOP DEFINITION
          layman’s terms
          To put something in layman’s terms is to describe a complex or technical issue using words and terms that the average individual (someone without professional training in the subject area) can understand, so that they may comprehend the issue to some degree.
          Instead of saying:

          “You need a new piston, valve guides, stator, and counter-shaft balancer”

          In layman’s terms you’d say:

          “There are some internal parts that need replaced”`] ~~~Urban Dictionary

          1. Mary
            It basically means putting words or concepts into simple terms that the average person can understand.

      2. Dearest HG: Re: Mid Range Narcissist (specifically the Technical Term: Range) 1) If the word Range does not have a cognate in German, 2) does not the word Grade in this instance seem similar to the word Range? Is it not a grading sysem? Is there a German word for Grade? A Middle Grade Narcissist? In cases like this, I would support symmetry and rhythm in the translation when possible: Three words in the English and three words in the German as well, if possible. 3) I looked up the word Grade as a synonym for Range in German and it is: Klasse

        1. PSE,
          yes, the Cadres are easy to translate in German

          For Mid-Range Narcissist, Mittlerer Narzisst works good because it’s nice and short and conveys everything that is included in Mid-Range Narcissist

          Greater is a bit different because we usually use the word height to describe what HG implies with the term. So Gehobener Narzisst (Heigthened Narcissist) works better than for example Größerer Narzisst, which is Greater Narcissist, but would be understood as Bigger Narcissist because of how the german term is mostly used.

          I also agree that it is helpflul to attach a short table with every term at the beginning of each book for example, helps keep things clear and easy to understand.

          1. Dearest HG: EMERGENCY ANNOUNCEMENT: All Translators should be reminded that HG TUDOR is also renowned for his gift to make this Complex and almost Incomprehensible topic of Narcissism plain and easy to understand for the Scholar and Expert and Professional mental practitioners, as well as the LAYMAN (a special gift HG has). So the translations should never be the complex form of a word if possible. HG stands out from the `competition`, because he not only opened up the many hidden complexities of the dynamic, but he also explains and teaches in a way that even the layman can get a grip on what is happening in this dynamic in their complicated and often heartbroken and bewildered lives. Many applaud him for this. The Translators need to sign on to this mindset when he makes his selections, to safeguard and grow and preserve his legacy. Trust will also probably be a factor that HG will have to endure in this matter, or have certain people that ensure that his work is still accessible to the layman as well, in the various languages, for quality control. And sometimes, one can just look at translations and see that there is something not right, or balanced, even if one does not speak the other language. That is the beauty of the human mind. It has intuition.

          2. Dearest HG: This is so important, but I am not sure I am making my point: For ease of reading, whenever the technical terms are brought into the reading, whether in the first sentence or the middle of the reading, or the end, that is when the technical term needs to be broken down and explained to the reader. The last thing I want to do when reading a book, is to have to flip back or forth to an index or preface. Sure,one can put the breakdowns at the beginning of the book and in the back in the index as well, and that is great, but no one should have to flip back and forth while they are reading. HG`s writing has never had me flipping back and forth for indexes. He explains as he goes. Fantastic! That is the ticket! No false choices. Do all if possible, but definitely while the poor distraught person is reading, they should not have to be flipping back and forth. That is why I gave the example the other day of the Great Portrait Artists who divided the labor according to the talents and interests of his assistants. But, the work itself needs to flow, just like the tears will flow from those that are learning how to work within their Narcissistic dynamic as best as possible. Someone can still add the indexes and tables, but the work has to include these terms within the body without any flipping back and forth. For example, I enjoy reading espionage books and some have a lot of acronyms, such as FBI, NSA, etc, and other acronyms, of course. This one book I was reading had a 2 page table of Acronyms. Great. I just guessed what they were and kept reading. At some point I flipped over and glanced at them,. It was good that they were there, but I did not like that the editor deemed it best for me the reader to have to keep flipping back and forth. The book was good, though. It would have been better if they had given the acronyms along the way in the reading and explained them, as well as having a table for reference. They should have done both. I wanted to sink into a good read, not flip back and forth to see what an acronym stood for.

          3. PSE

            I understand your “emergency” point. I think we all do. I for one am in this thread because I want to help making sure that the translation is as powerful as the original. Or at least almost. It’s a good thing that HG can get his community to help, at the same time you can also have a bit of trust in people who do this professionally.

            When books such as HGs are translated professionally the terminology is usually never left to one person alone. Someone has a first go and this go is then assessed by peers, and modifications are made until the system works.

            I hope I could alleviate your worries a bit.

        2. Dearest HG: I am tired now. I have enjoyed my input tremendously, on your behalf. I am your Magnet, Princess Super Empath. Thus, I do not have the strength and stamina of some of the other Empaths, yet I am not quite a flash in the pan, neither. I hand this over to the Geyser Empaths et al, now. I rest. It was a pleasure brainstorming on all this with all involved. Now, to my regular scheduled reading of some of HG`s material, along with my tea.

          1. PSE

            Hahaha “I hand this over to the Geyser Empaths et al, now.”

            Nice one 🙂

            You probably will see the carriers do the work .. . 🙂

            No seriously now, I think what would be of great help is if you compiled lists of translatable terminology from the texts you’re reading atm. If you’re familiar with HGs work it is actually easier to locate the terms that are used repeatedly. This concerns not just terminology that could be included in a table but ALL terminology that is relevant to the subject matter.

            You can be of great help here actually, but if you just swan in and tell translators what to remember when you don’t know much about the process and then fly out again then it’s kind of a frustrating read…

            Do stay, and get even more insight into HGs work – because that is the effect translation work has on translators when they transfer words from one cultural mindset into another.

          2. I guess she meant to say I’ll hand this over to the people that can really translate instead of googling things. I’m pretty offended about that haughty comment. It sounds as if all the other Empaths are just the proletariat looked down from her majesty. I’m a Carrier but I ain’t not taking anyone’s shit. Sorry not sorry.

          3. PSE

            A question regarding your post up above :
            Who or what or is
            a “layman” ? 🤔

          4. “Thank you for your contributions as ever PSE.”

            Do you like her more, HG? Should I feel jealous? I feel jealous. 😛

            (I am just teasing, HG and PSE)

        3. PSE

          Difficult to answer all this if you don’t know the target language… Yes Cadre is Klasse (one possibility). If you say Mittelklasse Narzisst though – this is indeed a possibility – it would only raise eyebrows. It would be the direct translation that has connotations attached that simply don’t work. To make more than haphazard suggestions for the terms you need knowledge of the target language, please trust us on that. I don’t mean to say that your input isn’t valued by me personally, I’m saying that now is the time that it would perhaps be a good idea if we explained to you which work needs to be done and which steps do not require a knowledge of the target language.

          I don’t know how the other German speakers and translation buffs see it. But I would suggest – now that we’ve bandied about a few translation ideas – that we compile a list of all terms that HG uses. (STEP 1). This can be used for all target languages – anyone can help with that.

          Then we need a list of what the official medical vocab is in English – – if there is any. (STEP 2) Then we need the medical translations into German that are in use. (STEP 3). Then we need the unofficial usages in German already established. (STEP 4). Then we need to locate those words for which there is no equivalent whatsoever. (STEP 5). Then comes the actual translation work for the terminology list (STEP 6).

          Each term ought to be listed separately along these lines :

          HG. eng. : fuel
          Eng. med. : narcissistic supply
          Germ. med. : narzisstische Zufuhr
          Germ. est. equivalent? NONE
          HG Germ. suggestions . : Treibstoff, Kraftstoff

          We need to research German medical as well as self help literature on narcissism to see what the competing and /or already established terms are.

          It’s fun to think about German equivalents but if this thread is to serve more purposes than entertainment and lead to a complete list of terms we need to go about it systematically.

          I suggest we talk about the steps – if they make sense to everyone – and if they do, follow them in that order.

          Would you be happy to help with St 1-5 (if we settle for them) cos these you can do also without knowledge of the target language?

          I’m asking this because I feel like I want to answer your linguistic questions but at the same time it’s tricky to do because it is obvious from the way you go about things that translation is not your field – and it seems to me that you are a bit sensitive when this is pointed out to you. Please don’t read this as an insult – what I’m trying to do now is trying to find out how we pool our different interests and skills in a semi-professional, productive and manageable way while keeping everyone on board who wants to be on board (linguistic geniuses and dabblers for fun alike) – until HG s official translator(s) join us and tell us how we can help them.

          What do you think?

    3. Between the various articles about empaths there isn’t one about the Contagion Empath. Why?

        1. Yeah HG. Where is that article? Carrot dangling, much?

          (I am teasing you, HG. I love ya. I have been longing for this article. So typical, as I often find myself longing for something from a narcissist. As long as it is you I am ok with it.)

          Emoji emoji kiss kiss hug hug.

        1. Ah ok I meant a specyfic article as such the GEYSER empath the saviouir empath and so on

  5. Desirée,
    If the comment I wrote was solely about you I would have replied back to you. My comment was to HG and was concerning one non-narcissistic subject being more acceptable and also more important then another.

    As far as some commenters being snotty and attention seeking, you yourself have just commented that you have spent little time lately on this platform due to time restrictions. If you would like evidence of such being true then you should visit past threads from the past month where there is plenty of evidence to support my claims. ( Big little liars is one of them )

    Also the only person that I know of that gets to decide what is acceptable to be posted on this blog is HG. As I stated in my previous comment, If someone does not like what another commentator has written it is very easy to skip over it.

    As far as me taking offense to what you stated or anyone else on here states, not a chance of that happening. As far as HG not meaning any offense, I’m sure he didn’t, him offending anyone was not even a topic of discussion because offending people is something that he just does not do.

    1. FM1T,
      I did not say I thought it to be “solely” about me. Your comment about “Hair moisturizers” referenced my interaction with PSE, so I had reason to assume this is partially directed to me since I started this conversation with HG and you also stated that your ET was high yesterday, so I thought my comment could have further contributed to that. I did not state this as the truth, but a mere assumption of mine based on what you wrote.
      My comment about spending little time was about why i misinterpreted HGs statement as being directed at me and is unrelated to your statement regarding some commenters, since you described this as something that has bothered you for a while, not something that happened within the past 10 days. I have seen plenty of threads on this plattform including BLL and the only indeed downright snotty and arrogant behaviour I have witnessed here came from obvious narcissists like Pamela Dianne. Everything I have seen was civilized, but I understand that you experienced it differently or may very well have seen comments I did not.
      Stating that there is no chance of you being offended by things that are stated on this blog does contradict itself with your previous statement that you think the blog has become emotionally draining to you due to the reasons you have stated.
      My intent was to make myself clear, should there have been a misunderstanding and that I would like to be provided with evidence should accusations against me be made.
      You stated that this is not the case and I am glad to hear it. I had no ill intentions and apologize if my way of phrasing things came across as such.

      1. Comments from you or others directed at me do not offend me. Emotionally draining because of people who use to be very close and are now very nasty to each other is very draining indeed, especially since I feel those emotions and have to separate them from my own. But that is my problem, no one else’s.

        1. Hello FM1T,
          I am sorry to hear you can feel other people’s (negative) emotions.
          If you want to share (if not, I understand), how do your separate other people’s emotions from your own?

          1. EB,
            I don’t mind sharing at all. You should know that it is not just negative emotions from other people that I can feel.
            This is something I have had my life, it wasn’t until recently ( 5 months) that I found out I wasn’t the only one that had these feelings. I’m going to try and explain it to you the best I can, but perhaps if Twilight is reading this she can expand on the subject? There are times when I become so overwhelmed with emotions that I’m feeling and I’m not sure if what I am feeling are my emotions because I am an empathetic person or the emotions of others. So I have started to learn ( thanks to Twilight ) how to step back when this is happening and take myself out of the situation, I cannot take on their emotions as my own, I have to let them pass through me and not hold on to them.
            This probably sounds crazier then hell EB, It happens to me and I think it sounds crazy! As I said I’m hoping Twilight will read this and reply to you, I’m sure she can explain it a lot better than I just did.

          2. FM1T,
            Thank you so much for sharing. It is very nice of Twilight to help you deal with the energy you feel. Hope you feel better that at least now you know what was happening and learning not to keep those emotions. Besides other people’s emotions, do you also absorb energy from the environment?
            It doesn’t sound crazy at all. Before I found this blog I wanted to know why I was targeted and I came across different types of people who are potential victims of narcissists: INFJ, HSP and (contagion) empaths. Different tests, different results. Anyway, I do not belong to any of these groups but as an introvert, we have traits in common.
            There were articles about self-care for empaths like learning shielding techniques, having a bath, swimming, spending time in nature near water, if possible. Water is very important.
            Some empaths also have their own crystal or stone, which is supposed to remove negative energy. I do not know if this is true, there is business behind it.

          3. Hmmm a piece of coloured stone or a book setting out how to beat the narcissist, tough call!

          4. EB,
            I do have crystals, they belonged to my Mother and her Mother before that. The problem was not knowing how to use them properly, which is something I now know how to do. I am what a friend of mine calls me, an earth empath. What that actually means is that I do best in nature. I can stand in the grass and feel some of the extra energy that I have leaving me and going back into the earth, or I can be recharged by being in or near water. A storm is an all together different story, I love them! The ocean and the beach is a place that I seek refuge.
            I don’t do well in large cities or crowded places, I find them to be very draining until I leave but it is not something that I can’t do. You say you do not belong to any of these groups but I was wondering if you have ever purchased HGs empath detector? As you know from reading he is the one that put me on the right path to healing and continues to do so. Take care EB 😘

          5. FM1T,
            It was interesting what you wrote about your mother and your grandmother having cristals. Do you think they were aware of feeling the energy of other people and the environment? I don’t mean they necessarily knew the word (Contagion) Empath.
            I haven’t heard about people having cristals unless they are empaths.

            I can relate to what you say about water and nature. Water has always been very important to me and I can recharge when I am alone, especially in nature. I feel fine in crowded places as long as I do not have to interact with aggressive people. I haven’t had an empath detector consult yet.
            It is good to hear that HG put you on the right path to healing.
            I wish you all the best on your journey, FM1T!

          6. EB,
            Yes both my Mother and Grandmother were aware of feeling the emotions of others, in fact it went much deeper than that. These and other things I was told to be aware of but never speak about them to others because they would simply not understand. We did not discuss it to much after that, I knew not to ask and was taught at a very young age to not ever tell. I hope at some point EB you decide to take the empath detector, I believe you would benefit from it greatly my dear. Thank you for your kind words today EB. I also wish you peace and happiness on the path that you are following. Take care.

          7. FM1T,
            I appreciate your kind words, thank you.
            It must have been hard for your mother and grandmother -and also for you too- to hide what you were feeling and experiencing, not to speak about it and if you did, not to be believed.
            I am sure you have a lot of interesting things to tell about your own experience and also your (grand)mother’s but this is not the right place, anyone can see.

          8. EB,
            I only got to visit my grandmother once a year because she lived 1500 miles away from me, but there are stories and lessons that she taught me that I will never forget. As for my mother, well I was born 16 years after my brother and my sister was 14 years older then I was, since my parents were older when I was born I always felt the need to protect and take care of my mother. I’m sure if I would do an empath consult for my mother she would have been a co-dependent. On the other hand I’m most positive if I would do a Narc detector on my Father he would be a UMR. I had very little time growing up to discuss things with my Mother as I was alone a lot, I used the feelings and emotions I had to survive the only way I knew how. My Mother always had her crystals with her but very rarely would she talk about her feelings. I can tell you one story that happened a few years ago that you may like though. ( I apologize HG if this gets to be to long.)
            First off my mother lived with me after my father passed. We used her dining room set that has a beautiful antique china cabinet, I am still to this day very careful when I remove items from inside of it to clean them, so I always take my time and put everything back exactly the same way as she had it.
            A few years ago I went to the UK to visit family. I gave my daughter the family crystals to keep until I returned, if something would have happened to me she should have them. A few months after I returned I told my daughter that I would like them back and that she would get them in due time. Lol. Before she had a chance to give them back to me her car was broken into one night in the parking lot where she works. They took the crystals that she had left in the car, my daughter felt horrible and I was devastated, I told her it was fine not to worry about it, that who ever stole them would be sorry they did because those crystals knew who they belonged to. About a month later when I was cleaning that China cabinet I came upon a small familiar looking black leather bag that I had never seen in there before. It was laying inside of a China cup that belonged to my Grandmother, when I opened that bag I found my Grandmothers small snuff can ( she always had it stuffed in the pocket of her dressing gown) underneath that, I found her crystals. Did my Mother know somehow that this would all happen and so she did not give me the crystals that belonged to her and my Grandmother? Did she think I was not ready to be in possession of the real ones at the time of her passing? These questions I’ll never have an answer to. I don’t believe I really need one, I have my Grandmothers crystals and that is all that really matters to me right now. Purchase that empath consult EB! 😘🥰

          9. FM1T,
            Glad to know your still have your grandmother’s crystals.

            “I’m sure if I would do an empath consult for my mother she would have been a co-dependent.”
            I thought your mother was a Contagion E. Can a CE be a CoD as well?

            Since your grandmother, you mother(?) and you are CEs – at least 3 generations – do you think your daughter is also a CE?
            I have read that there are many CEs who are unaware of it. This is why I took tests and read about the subject in case I was one (I am not).

            As for the empath consult, I thought this was for people involved with narcissists in romantic relationships only. I do not let narcissistic men ensnare me and thanks to HG’s articles, I have learnt how to become ‘a false positive’ much faster than before. I have done this recently and it worked perfectly. He gave up over a month ago.
            Do you think the Empath consult could be useful for NISS/NITSs of narcissists?

          10. EB
            I am not a Contagion, my empath consult had a strong majority CE.
            I am not sure what it is that we are in my family? My auntie, my sister, her daughter, and yes my daughter all have this ability, I’ve pretty much given up on putting a name to it, just being able to have others understand and myself learning to control these feelings and emotions are good enough for me. Lol.

            EB the empath consult is not just for people who have been in romantic relationships with narcissists, it is for everyone who has been targeted no matter what the relationships have been. I also believe this is something that would benefit you very much because of the awareness you have of your feelings and emotions. Thank you for corresponding with me today it was quite enjoyable. 🥰

          11. FM1T,
            You are welcome. I am really enjoying our conversation. I think you must have a lot of interesting information HG can use for his future book about empaths.

            I have read that the ability that you and some of your family members have is innate. You cannot acquire it later in life. It is a gift, only that some people cannot not see it like that because they have not learnt how to use it or to protect themselves. Is your daughter interested in knowing more about it?

            When I was 17 I took a career test which also included introversion-extroversion so I have that piece of information. We lose energy in social interactions while extroverts get their energy from other people. Interactions are an exchange of energy. Emotions are energy. When narcissistic people provoke (no matter if directly or in a subtle way), they want fuel = emotional reaction = our energy. I get very tired and even exhausted when I have to deal with their negativity and drama seeking behaviour. I usually prefer not to engage and use my energy for more productive things.

            Twilight has posted a very helpful comment on how to deal with emotional energy!

          12. EB,
            I had asked Twilight to help out with explaining how to deal with emotional energy as I was sure she could explain it far better then I could. As far as helping HG, I believe he has plenty of resources to help him with what ever he may need.

            Yes my daughter has always been aware and interested in the family emotions. In fact she has a young 3 year old that has been showing signs of being very emotional and empathetic since the day he was born. Him and I have bonded in away I have never bonded with anyone.
            I would be very interested to learn of your schools and cadres if you decide to purchase the empath detector consult, that is if you would want to share them? Thank you for this today EB, I very much enjoyed it. 🥰

          13. FM1T,
            Few people in this world are lucky to have so many empaths in your family like you do. I am really happy for you!

            Consults are confidential. I do not tell anything about them so I hope you do not take this personally, FM1T.
            I am not sure but in case I am empath, I think I could be a standard. As for the cadre, none of them fits me 100%. I share some traits (but not all) with carrier and doormat.
            I have finally found out what type of Myers Briggs personality type I have and this one fits me over 90% I would say. Tests had led to wrong types and I did not identify with.

          14. EB,
            Once again I was caught in my emotions and forgot to reread my last comment I sent to you. I want to apologize for any typos or sentences that are turned around. 🙃

          15. No need to apologize, FM1T. This is about narcissistic abuse, not linguistics. Like we say here “PS: If you find any spelling mistakes, you can keep them!” 😉

          16. Hello FM1T, EB and whom ever

            I am here and just saw this, actually last night yet I was helping a friend and couldn’t reply until now.

            I believe I have mentioned somewhere in the blog how I deal with the emotional energy

            It is like water washing over you or observing the landscape as you walk, drive etc. You can dam the water or stop and stand still, one makes a choice (either subconsciously or consciously) to hold on to or to let go. An Empath becomes drained by holding on and not letting go or just letting it flow. It isn’t the absorbing of the emotion it is using energy to hold on to an emotion that isn’t yours that drains an Empath.
            Awareness is what tunes one in they are holding on to another’s energy and recognizing theirs from another.
            This takes practice and being able to be aware of when ones ET is triggered which can influence things.

            In simple terms it is becoming the observer and not the participant.

            Now if we are nothing more then energy walking around in body bags…..a persons perspective influences how one sees what is making it what they want.

          17. Hi Twilight,
            Thank you so much for joining in and sharing! It is very kind of you.
            Your comment is really helpful 🙂

          18. Hi Twilight, Just saw your post. Well said! I always enjoy your insights. I also got a giggle out of “energy in a body bag” you do have your way with words, hahaha.

          19. FM1T

            I was rel new to this blog when you wrote while learning about yourself – it was heart warming to witness. I read your posts and by reading them I got a sense of how hard – and then again how joyful – it must be to be a Contagion. I think WokeAF is also in the middle of working out she’s one of yours.

  6. First, we need a methodology for the translation of the Terminology/Technical Terms for the Lexicon. And some technical terms are loaded with meaning and some are more direct thus: 1) We first need to have a consensus on what exactly the technical term means in English. Then it is easier to translate into other languages, as best as possible. For example: Silent Treatment: It is not really intuitive in meaning in English, either. But what is it. Is it not a manner of interacting with someone? To treat someone with disrespect using some form of not communicating in a polite manner. Even to ignore a person completely at times? To punish them with silence? To effect someone with various forms and methods of not responding to someone in a respectful manner, including mumbling and short and even snappy cryptic responses at times. To mistreat/abuse them with silence. The technical term, Silent Treatment covers a lot of information, not all of which is immediately intuitive to understand. These are my own definitions of Silent Treatment garnered from HG Tudor`s work, as I understand his explanations and examples. 2) So the Two Words, Silent And Treatment, could stay the same in a foreign language as well, if they have a word for Silent, and if they have a word for Treatment. And likewise the phrase may or may not be intuitively clear, as well, in the foreign language. 3) And then we explain the technical term, Silent Treatment, in the foreign language the same way we have to explain what it means, in English. Certain people would love to work on this technical side of translating into a Lexicon. Some would not. It is not a judgment of bad or good translators. It is a matter of translating preferences per individual.

    1. Not really. The first thing you need to translate is to be fluent in at least two languages. Google translate is for losers.

      1. Actually that is actually not really true. Most translators play off earlier translations. How many translations of the Odyssey have there been? (My God there needs to be a moratorium on Odyssey translations.) Do you think they all speak ancient Greek?

        They will alter a few words here and there and then claim it is a ‘new edition’ so they can make $.

        Those who have translated works are rarely fluent in those languages. Elaine Feinstein is a good example, as she does not know Russian. Japanese, German, Russian, Hungarian, the list goes on.

        However, to translate HG’s prose for the 1st time, fluency would be needed, I agree.

        1. Bibi, that’s true only because of two things: data and the knowledge of translation localization. The data refers to the archived older or previous translations that are used for contrast. Localization helps find all of those usages. I would say it is practical to translate the manual to operate a washing machine, but not to translate literature and even less, poetry. Believe me, I know what I’m talking about. To translate HG’s works it would be necessary to be familiarized with the terminology used in the medical literature referring to personality disorders and to be familiarized with the culture and the language you’re translating into (target lang.). I would not use a mechanic translating device, for many reasons. For example, in Spanish the term “gaslighting” is popularly know as “luz de gas” because the movie’s titled was translated in those terms, so much so, that the medical literature decided to adopt the term exactly as it is in the translation. Leaving it as “gaslighting” in a translation would not only be confusing for the readers, but also, unnecessarily stupid if I may say so. I advocate the use of mechanic translation in chain translations but definitely not in literary works, to me that is an anathema!

        2. Bibi, on a different topic, I’ve never been into Rilke but I see you love him. What would you recommend? I’d like to give him a chance.

          1. SP
            Re: Rainer Maria Rilke
            I’d take Eichendorffs Mondnacht over Rilkes Eros anyday. But if you’d like to give him a try, I think his Duineser Elegien might be something to dip your toes into.

            Re: Translations
            I completely agree with you. So far, I thought that Gaslighting might be an established anglicism in german literature, but it seems to mostly be mentioned in dubios blogposts and not always accurately explained. Chances are, they stole the work and where incapable of translating it or thought keeping the english terminology makes them look smart (how I despise those kinds of people).
            Therefore, using the german movie title “Gaslicht” is probably a better choice and “Gasleuchten” for the verb. I would still be tempted to go with “Gehirnwäsche” because the term brain washing isn’t being used in HGs work so far as I know, so that term is “available” and more easily understood. But I do see why one might consider that term to be too broad of a brush stroke.

          2. Desirée, thank you so very much. I don’t speak or even read German, I will need to find a good translation of your suggested readings. I don’t despise people that want to leave original words in their translations but I wouldn’t pay them for a job they didn’t do. People that don’t work in the field do not understand that translations exist to connect and communicate ideas, not just words. You need to work based on the principle equivalence which is the main goal when translating: conveying a similar message (same meaning, same intention, same intonation…) and many times, the words will change, or you will need to transpose the syntax, or amplify the paragraph… all of this is a skill acquired though hours of practice, not through google. But, you know… people are people. I would never suggest what word you must use of the two you comment on because I have absolutely no idea, but I agree with you in your reasoning of your choice.

          3. SP,
            I agree with you, I am also not completely opposed to anglicisms, if there is no equivalent in the language (similar to Schadenfreude in english). It’s just that in German, I consider unnecessarily throwing around anglicisms to be the intellectual equivalent of the duckface: Duckfacers think it makes them look cute and don’t realize it makes them look ridiculous, Anglicizers think it makes them look smart and worldly and don’t realize it makes them look stupid.

          4. Hey SP, I just saw your comment.

            So glad you asked. Please read Rilke’s poems over his prose. Stephen Mitchell’s Selected Poems is where you should start. Also, Edward Snow’s Collected Poems. Both great.

            Those are the 2 top dogs as far as translators. Don’t bother with anyone else. Seriously, don’t.

            Avoid Rilke’s prose. It is crap. He is a horrible prose writer but a phenomenal poet. He is akin to Sylvia Plath in that way. Plath is a fantastic poet but The Bell Jar is shit.

            Just sayin’. I tell readers to put aside the emotional thinking. Look on Amazon for those books. Both Mitchell and Snow have translations and they both offer something great and different.

            I am so glad you asked, SP!

            HG, I fucking LOVE your blog for so many reasons and this is one of them.

          5. Bibi,
            Already ordered. Thanks so much, I also needed someone who knew good translations as I can’t read him in the original. I will share my impressions with you, coded as some narcissistic conversation so that we don’t get accused of turning the blog into a book-coffee club. As if coffee clubs were not intellectual enough!!! Just a few: Cabaret Voltaire/Cafe de la Paix/ Cafè Florián/Café de Pombo/ Café Tortoni…

        3. Hi Bibi,
          Since you mentioned Stephen Mitchell, I was interested in your thoughts regarding his wife Katie Byron? I do not know much about either individual, just starting to learn.

      2. SP

        I have translated a fair bit in my life and I found that people routinely assume they know what it’s about and what it involves…They don’t, it’s annoying but it can’t be helped, we’ve gotta explain and hope they understand that there is a translator’s perspective on all of this….

        To make a more general point out of this, its been something that has been bugging me post BLL: One of the things I learnt on HGs blog is that (a large number of) empaths are similar to narcissists in the sense that they want to merge perspectives.

        “What I think is what you must think” / “If you don’t see it the way I do you are wrong” (narc) – “If you don’t see it the way I do I must be wrong (empath).

        We often question our own judgment if we don’t see things the way the narc does.

        And if we (empaths) are certain of our own view, that’s when we steamroller in and don’t stop until we’ve convinced everyone that we’re right. Well I know I’ve done it and I recognise the “sisters” here.

        When I first started reading here it was enlightening and absolutely liberating for me to understand the narcissistic view as another PERSPECTIVE. So much made sense then.

        But I also asked myself why I hadn’t worked that out before…. Partly of course because the narcissist veils how he truly thinks. But also because allowing other perspectives to have as much room as one’s own is tricky also for empathic people. Certainly not generally, not always etc etc but the problem is there (while we assume it is not).

        I’m saying that because many a thread gets a treading on eggshells feel when there’s disagreement….I’ve often wondered about it and at least I think I’ve got an idea now why this is….

        1. LC, I know you have done translations and so have I, actually, I do have “a few” published transitions out there. I do like to see other people’s perspectives, but when I work on translations (and other projects), I welcome the perspectives of other professionals in the area and/or of native speakers to get a sense of what I am working on. I like to read what other people think about the project even if they don’t translate, for example, I have found the questioning of confidentiality very important and something to discuss further to avoid getting HG into trouble. However, I do not welcome arrogant comments on how to do my job by someone who bases all the knowledge on Linguistics, Translation, and foreign languages on google searches, for the same reason I wouldn’t give any advice to a surgeon on how to operate just because I enjoy watching episodes of E.R. And on top of everything, dismissing our job by stating to be worried translators are not going to respect HG’s legacy. Moreover, saying that it’s time to let “Geysers et al. do the job” is simply rude. First of all, HG asked us for our expertise, I already have my own job thank you very much. Second, you cannot pretend to crown yourself as the supervisor of anything that you have no expertise on no matter how much Wikipedia you consult. And third, even among translators, if I participate in the project (cheers on the name, HG) I will only be in communication with the ones that work with the same target language, because, for very obvious reasons, you want to get the job done at a certain point instead of engaging in unproductive discussions. We, Carriers, are practical people and if I don’t see the point in asking someone out of my expertise, I simply stick to what matters and keep moving forward and that’s what I’m going to do.

          1. LC, obviously I meant “translations.” My dissatisfaction with autocorrect is beyond words, ha.

          2. SP

            I agree with your post, there’s actually nothing in it that I could disagree with, I was just playing good cop bad cop. 🙂

            “Carriers, are practical people and if I don’t see the point in asking someone out of my expertise, I simply stick to what matters and keep moving forward and that’s what I’m going to do”.

            I suspect I’m a Carrier with Saviour mixed in or something – I don’t really care about my empathic make up , I just care that we do a good job and don’t lose good people who want to contribute, and CAN contribute. It would be sad to lose them over squabbles.

            Everybody can contribute, also the monolingual people, in researching terminology for example. I think there are many people here who want to help with only English, I think that can be done – they should trust the people with translation experience though….

            As this is a multi-lingual project I think the various languages ought to touch base with one another and also pool certain research work? What do you think, SP?

            We’re dealing with a network of people here some lay, some professional – maybe there are people here who know how to organise complex projects such as this?

            HG your call went out only to people who have linguistic abilities but you might want to also ask if there are people who can manage projects on a scale like this, you’d need people who look after the process?

          3. LC, I know. It’s the attitude what I condone. I am very straightforward and hate passive aggressiveness. Probably my life would be better with a little bit more tolerance for shit, but that’s the reason why I actually escaped my narc as soon as I noticed his manipulation in the first place so I’m glad to be direct. Thanks for being so nice though.

          4. Hi SP, Just wanted to say there’s nothing wrong with being direct. I prefer it, and like that about you.

          5. FYC, it is what it is! Take it or leave it with me. Thanks so much 😘

          6. LC, I meant “what I DO NOT condone.” I’m getting ready for a party and was responding fast. Now that we are on international topics, a question: does everyone here feel OK with specifying the ending time of a party in the invitations or do you agree with me in wondering “what kind of party is that?” Hahaha!!!

          7. HG

            “I already have that point covered should I choose.”

            Naturally! Wonderful news.

          8. SP

            “does everyone here feel OK with specifying the ending time of a party in the invitations or do you agree with me in wondering “what kind of party is that?” Hahaha!!!”

            Hahaha this is a good one, without context I would suspect children’s birthday – child aged ca. 6 to 11, teheee!

          9. Context: this is an adult party. If you put the end time of a party in my country of origin, nobody would show up. I’m gonna try and see if they kick me out or what, will report later. Wish me luck!

          10. When I was younger I lived in a party house. A girl was too shy to ask where the bathroom was so she vomited in her purse. One guy woke up and wandered out to the kitchen and proceeded to piss on the fridge, and I don’t know how many eggs I blew up or had congeal into a rubber pancake when I craved protein after drinking and then fell asleep (but ate them anyway). Good times… but back to the matter at hand…Although there was never an end time assigned, generally when someone announced they were going to bed, the last few stragglers would up and leave together. On one particular night however, one guy remained. When approached and told the party was over and we were going to bed, he announced in a loud and annoyed manner: DON’T CATER TO ME MAN! I’M JUST DOING MY THING AND I DON’T NEED TO BE CATERED TO!

            He said it in such a manner that I actually questioned if he made sense and we had somehow been rude to him in OUR OWN HOUSE. There was staring and silence until it was decided that he could just let himself out lol. I don’t know if it was word salad or mushrooms though.

          11. SP and FYC

            I needed to mull over this as bit – this is an important topic for me. I prefer directness too and it’s funny this comes up in an international thread. I observe cultural differences as regards directness at work as well. A German “I’ll consider it” means “I’ll consider it” and a no is a no. A British no is : these are good ideas I’ll give them some consideration (and then not get back to you). (Obviously these are broad brushstrokes, I’m talking cultural preference, I’m not saying ALL Germans or Brits are like that).

            Now my question to you is about arrogance. How do you counter something that you perceive as arrogant.

            The situation is : not a narc, but a haughty (or haughty looking) comment from an empath. I’m asking this not with direct reference to PSE (who seems to have truly left this thread which is a shame) but I’m interested in your experience generally.

            Empaths are not deliberately haughty, are they. So when they say something that comes over as passive aggressive they don’t realise that you see it that way. From their perspective they were saying something meaningful and helpful.

            If you are interested in working things out with this person, would you tell them about their haughtiness (backed with evidence why you see it that way) – or would you only tell them about it if you wanted them to go away?

          12. LC, it’s hard for me to want to work with a person that adopts an attitude that despises others and believes she is too good to waste her time with the rest, without backed up evidence of having any more knowledge than the rest. That, to me, is arrogance. I call it BS and move on. It’s my personality, not my nationality though.

          13. LC, My comment to SP was solely about the quality of directness and my preference for that quality in a person. Anything you may have assumed further would be an inference and we all see what happens when inferences are made.

            To be clear, I did not enter the ‘discussion’ between SP and PSE.

            As to your observations, LC, I am keenly aware of cultural differences and have worked with cultures around the globe in my profession. I can think of only two cultures that tend to have a true lack of sensitivity or self-awareness with regard to their seemingly arrogant communication (out of respect for cultural differences they will not be named). Since I am well aware, I simply discount this arrogance and stay on point.

            I have witnessed many forms of arrogance and I have also witnessed many forms of bids for attention, or confidence be mistaken for arrogance. Communication is imperfect and it is prudent to know the difference. Most people are not highly self-aware, nor highly aware of others. Therefore, one may intend one communication while another may view that communication as arrogant or dismissive.

            As to your direct question, regarding how to counter arrogance, I am curious why you feel arrogance must be countered? Why do you feel this is a)necessary, b)useful, c)effective? What is your intent? What outcome do you seek?

            I would be happy to respond further upon your clarification.

          14. FYC, I read it that way, and I don’t think LC was referring to your comment, she just had a question, don’t feel bad. As for me, I didn’t have a discussion with anyone, I simply stated that she said something offensive and that I’m not gonna be supervised, judged, or corrected by a person that is not qualified to do so.

          15. SP, I don’t feel bad in the least. The ‘discussion’ was in single quotes for a reason. I am aware it was not a direct discussion. I am very clear what took place.

            SP, I am glad you knew I was merely referencing the preference of directness in communication.

          16. FYC, thank you. If I interpreted it correctly, LC was trying to see if the directness was related to my nationality. I think it’s just who I am. One example: a couple of years ago, my best friend from my hometown/home country visited us in the US. While we were having a glass of wine and chatting, my husband commented jokingly that I had a strong, passionate temperament, but he had to remember that was part of my culture. And my friend said: “Errr, no. That’s just SP.”

          17. SP, passionnate, strong & direct. Pretty good combo.

            From my perspective (I am not multilingual to any useful degree), I would think the best course of action would be to make every effort to follow the original text in translation, while localizing the translation for greatest accuracy and relatability for a language/dialect/culture. Unique words, phrases, acronyms, etc., can be identified as would naturally occur in the course of the body of work.

            I am impressed by the efforts of everyone to uncover the best words and phrases that most closely resemble the meaning and intent of HG’s writing. It has been my experience that some words and phrases are not directly translatable, but are explainable when left in their original form. I am certain you know far more about this than I have encountered.

            Thank you for your efforts and to the group as well. I am sure you will all enable HG to have exactly what he needs to make the best choices.

          18. FYC

            I can’t put my finger on it but I’ve got the impression that I’ve said something that annoyed you – it’s just a feeling – maybe I haven’t and it’s your way of phrasing things – do let me know if I have done anything to upset you?

            “As to your direct question, regarding how to counter arrogance, I am curious why you feel arrogance must be countered? Why do you feel this is a)necessary, b)useful, c)effective? What is your intent? What outcome do you seek?”

            To answer your questions:

            My question had collaboration in mind. Collaboration is an art. Some are good at it, others not so. Collaboration involves criticism sometimes. Criticism can take many forms – it can be mistaken, misplaced, hurtful, condescending – and it can be constructive, useful, helpful, life-saving. It can be many things more. As I write this I realise that my original question was less about arrogance and more about criticism.

            Criticism can be perceived as arrogance when it is not. Criticism can have a cloak of nicety when there is aggression and indeed arrogance underneath. Sometimes it’s hard to read it – the intent of criticism can be clouded – cultural differences can play a role. I have worked in many international collaborative settings and now my intent is to contribute in one in which there is no walking on eggshells feeling.

            As regards my question I don’t have a particular agenda other than to think about all this more. My question is an open one, not with a particular preferred answer or outcome in mind, FYC. Perhaps you were looking for subtext (because you suggest that I could be of the impression that you were entering a particular conversation).

            If you were looking for subtext, only if, here’s my answer to my own question so you can find what you were perhaps looking for: I don’t criticise someone’s arrogance very often. I do it because I care – I wouldn’t engage if I didn’t care. I do it if I perceive them to be wrong about something AND care about what they’re wrong about. People who are arrogant by default I avoid. On this blog, too, I don’t engage with people whose views, whether they be arrogant or not, I don’t care about. I will be direct if I think they can handle it. If I think they can’t I will either not do it or tread very softly. I will put myself out there to accept criticism also. Generally, the more direct criticism is, the better in my eyes because then I can settle differences with clarity. In a work setting it depends on the circumstances – but I never would address anyone’s arrogance (if I perceive it to be arrogance) just for the sake of it. I would only do it if it served the task we were engaged in.

            My views on this are probably partly a cultural thing, partly they have to do with my overcoming Codependency. I wasn’t good at confrontation because of my LOC background. I had to learn and am here to learn more. That’s why I’m asking.

            Looking forward to your response FYC.

          19. LC, you did not upset me. I was leery of your question because it appeared to be motivated by the exchange between SP and PSE, even though you disclaimed the connection. Regardless, there is an implied connection as it came on the heels of their comments. My cautious tone reflects my concern for your indirect approach. I sought to clarify your true intent and not speak around the participants.

            LC, I have great empathy for your LOC environment. I have one N parent, one CoD; one N sibling and one CoD. I took a different path from all of them. I have strong emotional empathy. I feel others feelings, even before they speak, but I do not consider myself in the contagion school, but simply have a stronger degree of that empathy. I also have narcissistic traits that enable me to deal effectively with conflict and speak out on my own behalf or on others behalf, and I freely do so when I feel so compelled. I am a very logical and direct in general (unless a different approach is necessary to appropriate to be effective). I hope this lends further insight to my responses.

            LC, I read your comments a few times to try and discern your actual desire. It seems you want to know two things, 1) How to maintain effective collaboration in a vibrant exchange including constructive criticism, whilst achieving your objectives and not getting derailed, and 2) In general, how to best address any conflict when you care about the subject or participants (and effect peace/resolution/clarity). Am I close?

            In short, a collaborative effort is best facilitated when all parties understand the objective and agenda of the project. A lead is useful in keeping the collaboration on tract in accordance with the objective/agenda. One can be appointed or one may volunteer and be recognized by the group. When someone pursues a tangent, it is best to acknowledge the tangential item(s) (regardless of merit) and park it for later consideration, and return to the objective at hand.

            When a mindful/direct, or mindless/indirect, arrogant or otherwise offensive comment is made, it is not always worth addressing. People tend to amplify their stance when confronted as seen in the infamous BLL thread. Instead, consider the source. Others are not blind to such behavior. See it for what it is (and what influences their stance) and get back on point. If the offending comment is taken personally and/or someone takes sincere umbrage, it is acceptable (and recommended) to express their view directly and allow a response. Without this step, conflict can escalate and become entrenched to the detriment of the project. Hopefully a clarification or apology follows, and the group returns on point. If not, the lead can moderate the issue, and the conflict itself can be parked as a means of getting back on track (this provides space for the participants in conflict to gain a clearer view of the situation without impulsively reacting). Not all conflicts are resolved, but every project must meet its objective.

            In the case of SP/PSE, when you have two or more passionate people who a) are passionate about very different things, b) are commenting for different reasons, c) have varied skill levels and varied degrees of self/other awareness, conflict can be a natural outcome. A clear agenda was not defined in the ongoing comments, comments strayed from the implied objective and were not parked. The final comment that caused the flair of frustration was said by PSE directly to HG for specific, self-oriented reasons, and I doubt there was much thought given to how it would be perceived by others. SP took umbrage. PSE chose not to reply. Case closed (though an insightful apology would have restored equilibrium for all).

            In the absence of an apology, could a caring third party, such as yourself, have made a difference? Maybe, maybe not. It depends upon the individuals in the exchange. At this point, I believe it is best to move ahead, on point. I also recommend clarifying for the group of participants, a clear objective and agenda. I would suggest, given HG’s comments, that all T/L contributors follow his original text as closely as possible (without amplification) and any outlying term can be presented (in a spreadsheet or otherwise) with detailed suggestions for his selection. If I am blind to other necessary elements, please forgive my oversight, but do add those elements into the agenda to get back on track.

            Lastly, LC, in general, if you are conflict averse and prefer a more indirect approach, one strategy is to deliver the message in a “complaint sandwich” (compliment/acknowledgement/positive statement, followed by concern/complaint, followed by appreciation/redirection). This can work well on bigger egos. If a person prefers a direct approach, you are better served by being clear and direct with respect. If the person is a N, they will want fuel, not resolution, and will likely stir the pot. (HG is an exception—often his behavior exceeds that of empaths when conflict arises on this site!)

            Hope this helps, LC, I am here for you for further discussion if you so desire.

          20. FYC,

            I think I’ll save your comment.
            I really admire what you wrote here, both its clarity and usefulness.

            I started thinking lately I should stay off the blog a little bit more, because I seem to be doing much better, almost got over this whole entanglement thing.
            But there’s always something keeping me hooked, and seeing comments such as this is one of the reasons. There’s always something new to learn here…

            Thank you.

          21. FYC

            Wow! Thank you for writing such a thoughtful answer. Fantastic. You go into much more detail than I was hoping for – need to let it settle a bit and will get back to you.

            Although I have one immediate question: do CoDs not have emotional empathy in your book or did I get that wrong? In that case I’m no CoD…(or we have a different understanding of it). But I must reread your answer and mull it over.

            All best and thanks again
            LC

          22. LC, CoDs do have emotional empathy. My comment was referring to the fact that I am neither CoD nor a N.

          23. FYC

            Yes, I think you have identified the most central issues that bug me and you answered them so well that I want to print the answers out as well. I find them very helpful indeed.

            It’s strange and interesting for me to see that you had to read a couple of times to tease the issues out. I think I have an idea why this is because I still go “meta” by default. “I’m asking this not with direct reference to PSE” was in fact meant how I said it, PSE’s leaving the thread in the way she did upset me more than her views on translation and the arrogance/insecurity she displayed (in my view). Her leaving was the prompt for an abstract question. My true question should have been: how do you avoid things like this from happening (except it happened and can no longer be avoided). You answered it too: sometimes this happens, it has to be accepted.

            And the truth is: situations like these are still difficult for me to accept.

            And it’s interesting, I knew I used to do this (go meta as a response to upset I feel when conflict arises about people or issues I care about). But I didn’t realise I was doing it here. By going meta (and often by bringing on logic) I used to deal with the crazy-making situations in my life. “Going meta” is my biggest strength and my greatest weakness rolled in one.

            I can therefore see why you responded in a way as if I wanted answers on this particular conflict and why you believed I veiled my question as an indirect one on PSE – even though I myself perceived my question as a direct one NOT involving the various parties.

            I think the difference between SE’s and my thinking is probably this. I still think along the lines of “Oh my God what have I failed to do that this conflict could not be resolved” (I am exaggerating a little) . I could also think: “I tried my best, she didn’t want to resolve, fair enough” – which is, what I believe, SPs way of thinking is.

            I am no longer so conflict averse FYC – I can and do self-confidently address what upsets/angers/irritates me these days (and I am long past the phase in which each and every tiny conflict needed to be addressed by me after I had learnt that avoiding conflict is not the way forward) – but if I cannot resolve a conflict I am involved in it upsets me deeply still, probably more than it should – because it is a choice to want to resolve and it has to be accepted if the other person does not want to do that, whether I like it or not. And this time I’m referring more to “The Issue”, rather than PSE.

            Re empathy: “I feel others feelings, even before they speak” you say about yourself. I have that too – and I am – by default – on high alert when there are conflicting feelings, double bind ones. Hence my “meta” approach which was my coping strategy. In the past I tried to address especially double binds by arguing meta with the narc; I wrote a bit about that in the BLL thread.

            Thank you again for your wonderful answer, FYC. It’s a pleasure to get to know you.

          24. LC, “PSE’s leaving the thread in the way she did upset me more than her views on translation and the arrogance/insecurity she displayed (in my view).” Her views on translation are worse. They are risible, and even dangerous if you think of some specific examples. I am like you, I need to resolve the conflict and feel horrendous when I can’t. You must be a Carrier too, LC. But please let’s not talk about this any more now that FYC has very eloquently explained that sometimes we need to let things go. I have a hard time accepting this but it is a valuable lesson, FYC, thank you.

          25. SP, I completely appreciate your point of view and feelings. Always keep in mind, another’s comments are not about you and cast no poor light upon you. They reflect upon the commenter and inform you about them in many ways. In any work project, performance wins, not words. Hugs (if you like them) to feel better. Your contributions are greatly appreciated!

          26. Thank you so much, FYC. I love hugs and kisses and cuddling and fluffy cheesy everything 😘😘😘

          27. NA, Lol…We know you are really a secret no-tell hugger, so you get one too!💞 bahahaha

          28. I understand your feelings and have a few thoughts to share, LC, but can you first explain your definition of “going meta”?

            For me, my mind works the same in any instance (I am not saying this is the same for anyone else, it’s just my experience in cognition). On any topic, a vast amount of relevant data comes to mind all at once. It is always in excess to what anyone would want to hear. I consider for a moment what I want to get across and select the most salient and relevant points to actually communicate (not that I always get it right!). It’s kind of like performing an instant meta analysis on a topic and writing (or verbally offering) an executive summary on the specific issues.

            It sounds like you may see a specific issue (the conflict), that sparks your internalization of the issue, and you then revert to contemplating a broader, related topic? A sort of reverse meta analysis? Narrow to broad, versus broad to narrow? Is this what you mean?

            Thanks in advance for clarifying. I would like to accommodate your communication preference. It is my pleasure to chat with you as well, LC.

          29. SP

            “But please let’s not talk about this any more now that FYC has very eloquently explained that sometimes we need to let things go”

            I hear you and will observe.
            I needed to acknowledge that I understand what FYC is telling me and am grateful for it but you’re right it looks like I’m still talking about it days later and I was. Stopping now. 🙂

          30. LC, don’t apologize. At least I know it was not just me who felt that way.

          31. FYC

            “It sounds like you may see a specific issue (the conflict), that sparks your internalization of the issue, and you then revert to contemplating a broader, related topic? A sort of reverse meta analysis? Narrow to broad, versus broad to narrow? Is this what you mean?”

            Not quite, more like this : there is a conflict – it may upset me – I will then talk about the nature of conflicts. I will not ask : what do you think of this particular situation but go one level above and ask you about conflicts in general and try to find a system, a rule, something orderly to hold on to (presumably because conflict used to mean unpredictable chaos).

            So it’s not about contemplating a related topic but “controlling” a topic/the conflict /or what the conflict is about by finding out the rules by which it can be grasped. Sounds pretty narcy actually if I listen to myself there 🙂

          32. LC: “there is a conflict – it may upset me – I will then talk about the nature of conflicts.” This is what I was referring to in terms of narrow to broad, kind of a reverse meta analysis.

            Are you familiar with the coping mechanism of intellectualization? Given your comment on taking safe harbor in the general and in logic, I think this may be relevant. The definition of this natural defense is: “Intellectualization is a defense mechanism by which reasoning is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict and its associated emotional stress.” In other words, staying in your head to avoid the emotional overwhelm in your heart (I do not mean that in a dramatic sense). I have used this defense mechanism when faced with an unsolvable problem. It is useful, but it is better to get at the heart of your emotions in unison with your logical assessment so as to avoid denial (another defense mechanism).

            The problem is, understanding a thing does not change the thing. The intellectualization lends a sense of control, but it is false control. It is more of a self soothing. Useful, but it does not effect change.

            With regard to conflict, it may be unpleasant, but conflict is a natural part of communication (and being human). Anticipate this. Acknowledge your emotions, but pause them. Review the situation with cool logic as much as possible. Try to bring logical reason into the conflict from a neutral position. If one or both parties escalate, stonewall, or leave the conversation, let it go. You will not be effective under these circumstances. Better to give it a rest and reschedule the discussion at a later time when cooler heads can prevail. At that time, find a commonality between the participants for your starting point. Communicate without judgement. Employ active listening. Reframe the argument in a logical way and offer external perceptions. The rest is up to the participants. No-one can force an apology and even if one were produced under such conditions, it would have little sincerity. Sometimes just stating an opinion has a powerful effect on both parties. They may be too proud or embarrassed to relent, but when you let go, behavior may actually change as a result. People need room for introspection to avoid an automatic defense. At one end of the spectrum, some people will remain unaware (low self-awareness/low self-monitor), while at the other end of the spectrum (Ns) will relish conflict and seek to extend it (another reason to let go).

            LC, you are not responsible for others feelings, we are each responsible for our own. Emotional empathy is tricky. It calls us to action, but sometimes it’s better to remain in the calm eye of any conflict storm. We all give way to our emotions at times and this is okay too. Accept this as normal and move past it, and as HG so aptly says, “cease giving it energy.” This is a very brief response on a complicated matter. I hope it is somewhat helpful. If you have further specific questions I am happy to reply.

          1. E & L

            I’m aware there are male readers on this blog. Are you writing this because of my question on gender inflections?

            I am asking this with German in mind.

            Der Narzisst / the narcissist – in German is male, whereas in English both female and male.

            In German left leaning quality newspapers there is now a movement to be now gender inclusive.

            To say: der Narzisst oder die Narzisstin.

            Or ; der/die Narzisst*in

            The star represents make female and everything else there is from inter to whatever it is that people identify as

            It can get very unwieldy and the star is there to help with that.

            To me it feels kind of odd to read “der Narzisst” (male) and “der Empath” (male) … Even if traditionally you could understand “der Narzisst” to be a generic term for both (resp all of the) genders.

          2. Hi LC,
            I only speak English (and I live in the US) so my translating input is limited to “conceptual” interpretations and possibly opining about suggestions. But, I appreciate the all inclusive sentiment regarding HG’s global reach project. I am referring to this sentence you wrote in a previous comment:

            LC says:
            August 9, 2019 at 16:57

            “And if we (empaths) are certain of our own view, that’s when we steamroller in and don’t stop until we’ve convinced everyone that we’re right. Well I know I’ve done it and I recognise the “sisters” here.”

            Just trying to maintain the all inclusive vibe. And, I do relate to what you wrote in that post. I very much love listening to people way smarter than myself because they discuss, converse, and teach me. The language conversations open up a whole new world to this middle-aged, stay-at-home, dog(s)/cat(s) mom. There is a whole lot of “smart” on this blog, just look to the content creator himself. Grateful to have been invited!

          3. E&L, I don’t consider myself smarter than you or other people here. It just happens that I have done this a million times because it’s part of my job so I try to let others see the most practical manner to get the work done in a sensible time frame. I am sorry if I seem exclusive, I don’t intend to exclude anyone here, but I do know that if everyone starts offering ideas instead of actually translating we will never achieve consensus. And even among translators it is very hard to achieve consensus without hurting others’ egos so imagine. I was trained by one of the best translators of literature in Europe (this is not me bragging, it is actually him who is a genius not me). He worked with a team of two other colleagues. One of the translations they did was a part of an extremely difficult work to translate. The end result was magnificent and praised by critics. The three of them ended up not talking to each other for a while after that. It is not easy at all to achieve consensus, so the more people you ask for opinions the less likely you will get anything done. But please, don’t say there are smarter people than you. I don’t feel that way about myself and if I give that impression then I apologize for sounding like an asshole.

          4. SP,
            I am comfortable knowing I am of average intelligence. I was not implying any of the participants on this blog are intending to prove their intellectual superiority. Certainly not you! You contribute very insightful comments that I have read. But, it is okay if I acknowledge this about myself. It is the truth. Again, I am grateful to be invited to the table without judgement. And, I appreciate all you contribute here. You have not said or done anything wrong. No worry!
            No apology is needed!

          5. Thank you, E&L. I just want to make sure I’m not being mean or snobbish. I certainly do believe there are many forms of intelligence, I definitely learn a million things in the blog from other people, and from HG, of course.

          6. E & L

            “Just trying to maintain the all inclusive vibe.”

            I see okay! Understood! And I agree that translations should be gender sensitive.

            I wonder what the proportion of male readers is here. This is a bit of a touchy point and I’ve stepped on sun’s toes raising something similar before (I’m getting the eggshells out of the cupboard in a minute) but I have sometimes wondered if male readers are upset about how we (women) speak about men here. They’re abusive men we talk about, I know. But they’re men. People. I hope you won’t get me wrong, I’m not defending or playing down abuse the moment you raise a point about gender awareness!

            It’s just that when I’m reading here I sometimes change a pronoun “he is such a xyz” to “she” in my mind and it has an unsettling effect on me.

            There is a blog written for mostly ex partners of Borderliners that I checked out once and I was surprised to find that the stories and consoling words posted by the commenters were very similar (if not almost identical) to the ones we read here. Except it was mostly men posting about their experiences with women. I would have felt very uncomfortable joining them. (The blog itself was rubbish anyway but all the same, I was interested because my brother was a borderliner).

            Many of us have matrinarcs. The worst narc in my life by far was my mother, not the narc men I got involved with… But somehow it seems that narcs are seen as if they’re mostly male. I don’t know if HG has posted estimates – but it seems to me that there must be as many female narcs as there are male ones, except they operate in different ways – presumably for cultural reasons. I think stories and comments about female narcissists are a bit underrepresented here. Maybe because we don’t know female narcissists well enough yet (not least because abuse by women is a cultural taboo, and so is being a man who was abused by a woman).

  7. Dearest HG: I remember once reading about some of the great Classical Portrait Artists. And how some had a school of `attendees`, I am not sure what they are called, but, for example: Some were good at painting the backgrounds, some painted hands well, some excelled with garments, some painted lace exceptionally well. So the famous artist often did not paint the entire portrait himself. But, it was still his work. HG: This methodology, this division of labour, would be an excellent use of translators as well: some for the prose, etc. but, specifically, MY MAIN CONCERN, some can work with protecting your technical terms and Lexicon, and create a template, of the Original Terms, the translation, the best definition in the translated language, and the best explanation of the term in the translated language etc. and once you work out your template, that same template or format could then be used on all of your translations. The first standardization is the most difficult, of course, but from there it will be Standard Operating Procedure regarding your Lexicon and Terminology for your future translations. Your work is still clinical although you have the gift to make it accessible to many. Then your clinical and technical innovation and lexicon and terminology are protected and safeguarded and those with certain talents in translating are free to produce in the area that they excel and enjoy and can even work more quickly, without having to focus on areas that is not best for them, or is difficult or even tiresome for them. Plus, readers of the translation can these days still place the original term in their computer and translate it as well, for their own additional learning, if they so desire. Win, Win, Win.

  8. LC: I do not idealize HG, as you wrote. HG Tudor IS a manifestation, an embodiment, of an ideal persona. I perceive it. I feel it. It is like art, I know it when I see it. I perceive you and Desiree and Stella, etc. on a high level, for example (and not wanting to not include someone is not my point). Rather, my point is: I did not put you there. You are there on your own merits. And, I believe we are stronger and wiser together. The wisdom I have gleaned from HG Tudor about all people is incredible. And HG is unusual because he is able to take applicable and substantive knowledge from whence he finds it, whether from other top experts or from layman. Many organizations are leaning towards taking his approach. It is not an easy path, because so many formats and their professional devotees are entrenched in the old established style of procedure, whether or not that style is in need of innovation and expansion, and whether or not the old way is the best fit in certain projects.

  9. Gaslight is a movie: The man in the movie played with the sanity of his wife. The term Gaslight is from the movie, the 1940 movie. The version closest to the original script. You can find it on Youtube currently. I watched it this week. Interesting movie. You do not remove the original word Gaslight, in English. You give the original, you give a translation of what it means. And even tell them about the movie as I have attached here for your convenience:https://youtu.be/UYmtzaHwCKo

    1. Dearest HG; Regarding the 1940 Film Gaslight: 1) I looked on Google and Gaslight in German is also:
      Gaslicht. Also, what about: 2) `Gasbeleuchtung’) found on Wikipedia. I like these 2 words because they are somewhat cognates of the English word, and I am a supporter of the utilization of cognates, when possible, in translation. Maybe a German speaker can also comment on the acceptability of these 2 German words, for Gaslight or Gaslighting. And this is my first try ever at German–just a reminder.

      1. PSE
        I responded to you in another comment here that Gaslicht as the movie was named is the Substantive, so Gaslight = Gaslicht; Gaslighting = Gasleuchten
        As for Gasbeleuchtung, “Beleuchtung” is similar to a light installation, but it could be used in certain scentences, depending on how they are structured.
        Gasleuchten is not just a cognate, but the exact match.

        1. Desiree: Thank you. There was one other example in German, but now I can not find it to show to you. But, I would prefer one of those words that sound similar to the movie, Gaslight, than one word I saw that started with the letter A. At least these both start with the letter G and have the letter L in the middle. I prefer something like that.

  10. Hoover is the name of a person. You do not translate away a man`s name. It was a popular brand of Vaccum cleaner. You do not tranlate or eliminate the origin of the term. You can even provide a photo of a hoover vacuum cleaner. `The Vacuum sucks you back into the dirt and debris from whence you are currenty not entangled with. Thus you were Hoovered. Vacummed back in. in. `William H. Hoover – Ohio History Central
    http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/w/William_H._Hoover
    In 1908, Hoover purchased James Murray Spangler’s patent for an electric suction sweeper which became known as the Hoover vacuum cleaner. William “Boss” Hoover became president of The Electric Suction Sweeper Company, where many improvements were made to the design of the vacuum cleaner and new sales strategies began`.

      1. Dearest HG: According to Google: vacuum in German is: Vakuum. A cognate: Yay! So, in German, a person also would vacuumed or sucked back into to an entanglement or ensnarement, etc. (I love cognates when it is possible to use one in translating).

        1. PSE,
          please, I saw you post something along these lines the third time now and I want to get this out of the way so that we can go back to a more fruitful discussion. Please do not take this personally, I am not pointing this out to be mean to you, but hopefully to help you understand a little bit about the translation process and why you might feel some suggestions are bad and too far from HGs original term, even though they are actually very good.

          If I had told you that the German word for Hoover is “Hoovar”, would that have made you happy? Would you have preferred that to other suggestions? Why?

          Just because a german word looks similar to you, does not mean that they are actually similar. It does not mean it makes a good translation. I guarantee you, this is almost never the case.

          A “Vakuum” is not a hoover. “Ein Vakuum” is a space that is entirely devoid of any matter with an below average air pressure (negative air pressure). It is the physical process that makes a vacuum cleaner funktion in the way that it does, it can not be used as a stand in for a Hoover. Even the word “Vakuumreiniger” (vacuum cleaner) usually refers to industry grade cleaning devices for machinery, not to a household device and is almost never used in everyday language. It can therefore not be used to describe a Hoover, just because it looks that way to you. You also cannot use the verb. If something is “vakuumiert”, that means it is vacuum packed.

          I mean no offense to you and this is not a critique of you personally, of course. It’s just that the basis on which you are trying to determine if a word could be a suitable translation is a non-starter.

          1. Desree: What I am saying for translators to not hide the name Hoover from people when translating in any language, not just German, so that the readers can know the term was from a man named Hoover who created a popular vacuum cleaner. I am saying to tell people the true history. It also enhances the rich fabric of the field to know that Gaslight was from a movie and that Hoover was a brand of vacuum cleaner. And I prefer cognates when possible, always. Even in English, some people STILL do not know that Gaslight was from a movie and that Hoover is the name of a man who created vacuum cleaners. Because this fact is not always mentioned.

          2. PSE,
            yes, I think you made some very good suggestions here.
            There should definitely be an index in every language containing both HGs terminology and the translation the translator has chosen.
            This will help keep track of terminology, give readers an overview and most importantly, ensure continuity throughout the translation process of blog entries or books.
            I have also only seen one german blog briefly outlining where the term Gaslighting stems from and while the entry itself was lackluster as most of them, that little background information greatly added to illustrating what the term entails.

          3. Well, it seems to me that even hoover, the word chosen by HG hasn’t the exact meaning conveyed to the readers, namely to draw back a victim. The Hoover is an appliance who serves to clean the House by vacuumng the dust even in English language. HG chose this word to underline the strenght of the concept. In his book Black Hole, the only book I have, he explains this concept in introduction. It seems to me that he started just with the description of the term hoover. I don’t know German language, but the equivalent meaning of hoover in italian, that would be’ “aspirapolvere” is not suitable in the translation; it would be’ too rough for the readers. So if i should translate, for examole, Black Hole, I would omit that part of introduction, or add a note-of-translator explaining as said above.

          4. Hello Stella,

            When I began writing I opted to use certain phrases which were well-established within the world of narcissism, hoover being one and everybody understands what that means. You are correct it is more accurate to state it is about drawing a person back in, but of course writing hoover is shorter and also conveys the fact that when you hoover (using a vacuum cleaner) it is a strong force which is difficult to resist and thus is a useful word to describe the experience. Many concepts were absent so I brought in my own lexicon and in other instances I used existing terms (discard being an example) and over time replace that with disengagement because this more accurate and also a new word was needed to remove the idea that there is such a thing as a discard, because there is not, thus discard is the wrong word to use. However, I was conscious that I needed to bridge between existing terminology and my new lexicon to ensure that people did not face a wall of unfamiliarity to begin with. Your observations with regard to how certain words translate into Italian are valid because you understand how a literal translation may not be effective, so thank you for doing that.

          5. Well, in my case I could say discard as well, my narc won’t hoover me anymore. That’s a guarantee. I was a secondary shelf source, his fuel matrix was vaste, and jt’s probably so even now. He supposedly is an Upper Mid Range. In this regard I noticed that your articles about hoovers and victims don’t treat specifically about the hoover of secondary sources. It’s not clear if the narcissist may always hoover even this type of sources (secondary shelf sources, dirty little secrets etc). I would think that being them secondary appliances, they are completely replaceable, and once the narc has discarded them, indeed this is rare, they won’t be hoovered again. Am I wrong? Now I’m submitting this question to you merely as a victim, not as a potential translator). Can you write an article about the hoover of the secondary sources please?

          6. Yes, you are wrong. Secondary sources are affected by the Hoover Trigger and the Hoover Execution Criteria just like any other appliance. This is what governs the shelf dynamic.

            The applicable factors vary, for instance, the secondary sources fuel is less potent than that of the primary source but that is but one factor. Just because you might be one of several secondary sources does not mean you will not be hoovered. For instance, I send a text to six of my friends (all are NISS) “Who fancy some beers this evening.” So easy to do and they have just been hoovered, six of them.
            If I text four IPSSs “Hello, how are you? What are your plans for this evening?” Also easy to do and I have just hoovered all four within seconds on one another. If I text both groups, that is ten secondary sources all hoovered within less than a minute.

          7. I know I must be wrong, and I know that was my emotional thinking to dictate my comment above.
            Maybe he’ s hoovering me in a malign way since one of his lieutenents continue to post on Facebook negative comments about me and the other sources that now are out of his sphere. Can this be a hoover as well?
            At the contrary a friend of mine told me that her narc continues to send her nonsenses, like 4 example “it’s hot” or “Nasty girl!” Even if their relationship has ended 5 years ago and both have other partners. My friend answers (and I scold her for this) and he doesn’t answer anymore, only to appear again after some months with another nonsense message. This could be’ a follow up hoovers, but it’s clearthat he’s not interested to restart the relationship with her, so what is searching for? Of course fuel, but what type of fuel?

          8. If she is painted white he will be looking for positive fuel, if black, negative fuel.

          9. Hello Stella, How popular is American psychology or non psychological American blogs on narcissism in Italy? This information will be useful in terms of greater awareness of a particular audience.

          10. I don’t know exactly in terms of numbers. I follow only HG, but someone recently made mention of a psichiatrist named Carol
            Allerd (i don’t know if It’s correct). An italian coach translated some of her articles, and moreover there is another italian blog that is called “l’arte di salvarsi”and that contents translated articles by another american expert of narcissism (i don’t remember the name). However in italy narcissism’s phenomenon this is not again so much diffused

          11. generic hoovers are the worst lol. At least put some effort in hahahah.

            I’d even get simple ones like “free?” and if I failed to respond after a couple of these I’d receive a call.

          12. Stella. The Hoover is an action, a strong force to suck or vacuum you back into the entanglement. Also, it is NOT a good thing. Although many times our Emotional Thinking wants the Hoover. It is picturesque that a vacuum is used. Who wants to really be sucked into all that dirt and dust and debris and whirling wind inside of a vacuum cleaner, if they are being logical, about the entanglement. Just picture that. Hoover is good in so many ways. A Picturesque, sucking-vacuuming, strong force, into a BAD place which is the Narcissistic entanglement. I see nothing wrong in how HG used Hoover in his book. Hoover is everything everyone is saying. Not just one thing or the other. That is one reason why the Technical Term Hoover is surviving, while the Technical Term, Discard, is failing. Discard is really a Disengagement.

      2. PSE,

        I just saw your argument regarding the Hoover and it is a little besides the point. Let me explain:

        When you say “I want to buy a Hoover” do you speak of William H. Hoover, or do you speak of the household item?
        You speak of the household item. Therefore, you are no longer talking about a persons name, but about a brand name.
        Therefore, translating the term “Hoover” would not equal translating a persons name.
        Hoover is a brand name that has become a noun and is often used to describe any vacuum cleaner, not necessarily one of that same brand. It has been genericized.
        The noun Hoover is now used as a verb called “Hoovering”. A noun that has been turned into a verb is called an Anthimeria.

        – You are not translating a Person’s name or a Brand name. You are translating an Anthimeria. –

        So, how to go about this? You say you would prefer these terms to be translated using cognorates. I can do even better than that. I can translate these terms using the exact match.

        What is the exact German match for the word Hoover?
        Staubsauger.
        What is the exact German match for the verb Hoovering?
        Staubsaugen.
        What are some possible cognorates for these Terms?
        Der Sog, Saugen.

        Does that mean it definitely has to be translated and cannot live on in it’s original english form in a German translation? Of course not, but what’s the point of translating HGs work when you don’t attempt to translate key parts of his work. Your wishes with regards to protecting HGs Legacy are not only being met, we are doing even better than that in our current discussion. Just because these words might look different, does not mean that they are different.

        1. Desiree: The point I am making is not language specific. 1) Yes, I AFFIRM that I support cognates when possible in translations. And 2) I like the history of words, like the history of the words such as Gaslight and the history of Hoover, to not be skipped over, and to be provided to the readers for their edification in translations. They are part of the flavor and fabric of the field. I made a longer post, but my computer glitched. In short: I affirm, that I prefer my points both 1 and 2, and those 2 points are important to me. And these 2 preferences are not language specific. We just happen to be talking about German and Italian on this feed so far.

        2. Desiree: Your statement put clearly what I am stumbling to say. Thank you so very much. This is what I am trying to say that you say so well: [`PSE,
          yes, I think you made some very good suggestions here.
          There should definitely be an index in every language containing both HGs terminology and the translation the translator has chosen.
          This will help keep track of terminology, give readers an overview and most importantly, ensure continuity throughout the translation process of blog entries or books.
          I have also only seen one german blog briefly outlining where the term Gaslighting stems from and while the entry itself was lackluster as most of them, that little background information greatly added to illustrating what the term entails.` ~~~Desiree] Desiree, if I may, I would like to add, that at the BEGINNING of each topic, that HG illuminates in his works, his Original Lexicon and the Terminology and explanations, etc, also HEADLINES, and are explained WHEREVER they appear in his work. To STAR. It is HG`s Distinction and style for the Lexicon and his Legacy and his Terminology. He has to ALWAYS claim it! It can not be obscured or minimized. THEN, his terms, etc. still can be put in an index, if you mean by index, placed in the back of the work, but his Terminology and Lexicon, etc. still must always STAR throughout all his works as well as exist in an Index. He has to CONTINUALLY claim it, even in translated works. Perhaps, especially and more so in translated works! We could be saying the same thing, but I want to be sure on this: His Technical Terms and Terminology and Explanations, and Definitions must STAR throughout his works and the translations. They are not just tossed in the back of his works, and explained in the back of the book and in the dark, behind some asterisk or some footnote like indexed often means, or lined up on a few pages somewhere only. If in doubt, we do all. No false choices. His innovations are the STAR, and NOT an inconvenience to be figured out how to translate best. HG Tudor is bringing illumination into the field, So Give Him Light throughout the translations. Let those that come behind him use the asterisks and footnotes, etc. in his honor, when they quote him. But, HG is a respected Pioneer in breaking open many of the esoteric areas of this field, This is the mindset. The mindset of Pioneers. And Pioneers do not come around much every day. It is exciting.

  11. I am a native English Speaker. One day I still hope to speak English well: A refreshing confession. My English has improved after listening to HG Tudor so much and reading his works for about 10 months now. An unexpected benefit. It seems like only yesterday, that I found HG Tudor. Now, back to translations! I find the work of translating interesting and fascinating. Also, I think it is best to use Cognates as much as possible and to NOT translate the Technical Terms. Readers will have to add the Technical Terms of HG`s lexicon to their vocabulary. HG`s lexicon is part of his legacy and has broadened the field tremendously says those professionals in the mental practitioner field. FUEL is part of his lexicon and legacy. I would like to suggest to NOT translate that word in particular, going forward, and to put it back in the future, if it were translated in older editions of translated works. Amen. On a lighter note: Have you ever seen those Japanese or Chinese movies, and the characters speak about 20 words in their native language and the English translation written below in the film is about 3 words? Hahaha. I used to wonder about that mysterious occurrence, even as a child.

  12. Dearest HG: Translation is so fascinating. I am a Major League Baseball,(MLB) fan and some of the Players will only use certain translators to avoid subtle mistranslations that could cause a maelstrom with the press: Mostly Players from Latin America and Japan. I looked up fuel in Italian and I saw what came up. Not really the same`feeling` as what you mean by fuel. However, I wondered if this sentence is appropriate in Italian, and I chose the word: Energy. I do not speak nor study italian. I am thinking that energy could also be a translation of fuel in Italian. Forgive me if I should not be over here. But, I am one of your Followers, you know. Where you go, I will follow. So I typed to be translated: her presence energized me. Here is what was returned to me:
    la sua presenza mi dà energia. Also, maybe the word substance: Her substance give me energy: la sua sublimazione mi dà energia. So perhaps Energy or Substance can be used for Fuel in Italian. Okay! HG, you have now experienced my first foray into Italian. Congratulations! I hope you enjoyed it. Your faithful reader, PSE.

    1. Princess super emphat

      I am Italian, wow…
      i like the word Energia a lot.
      i wanted to reasearch a word for fuel, and Energia does gives a better sense in my opinion.

      1. Mary, does Energia just mean energy? That’s pretty fitting although it’s kind of broad and maybe not enough of an distinction…empaths gain “energy” from helping people and experiencing their gratitude, but it’s very diffierent from a narcissists concept of fuel. Energy sounds almoust empathic to me, but I don’t speak italian so you would now better what evokes the right image

      2. Mary. Maybe: Energy and even Sustenance, in Italian. Other than that, HG Tudor can still call it FUEL, in Italian, just like in English, and in all languages, and then define the technical term for the readers to understand, in whatever language, and just add the word FUEL to the vocabulary in that Language. English is full of added words from other language and words from other languages are constantly being added to English. Sometime the original word is just the best fit. FUEL. The word does sound like what it does to me. FUEL could be the best fit and everyone in every language will just will have to learn that word as chosen, and as defined by: The Narcissist. I am not a linguist at all, but I hope you understand what I mean. And this particular word is of UTMOST important to get right, when some other words may have more flexibility in various linguistic translations. In short: FUEL may just be the best word in every language, and then the word FUEL is defined and used going forward in all of HG`s international translations. FUEL. In fact, many of the technical terms should probably stay the same, if no worthy cognate is available. Like Hoover, etc. One would explain the hoover vacuum cleaner, and not change the word Hoover in any language.

        1. I also think keeping the original English terms might be the best approach for some very specific notions (like fuel, hoover, gaslighting, devaluation, maybe even types of narcs or empaths). This would help creating a generic worldwide pool of narc-related terminology.

          1. Depending on the language and the term, Abe. Gaslighting has been translated and used successfully in its translation in the medical community in many countries, as it is a popular term due to the movie. I’m not that sure about hoover. As with any good translation, research is key.

          2. Abe,
            I agree that some terms should stay the same, for example the word “Silent Treatment” and “Gaslighting” are established anglicisms in my country and have been introduced into German language so early on, it would be difficult to find a matching German equivalent. However, the point of such terminology is to provide tools to the reader to help them understand their personal situation. This is best accomplished by providing the reader with tools that are intuitive to them. In order to be intuitive, it’s best to use terminology that is close to how they would describe things themselves.
            Additionally, if someone is reading the translation of HGs work in their mothertongue, they are unlikely to participate in global discourse and only look for answers to their current situation. Introducing anglicisms that are to be learned like vocabulary could make this unnecessarily difficult and the professionals in the field already refer to many things by their english term, as it is done in most academic persuasions.
            In conclusion, I think anglicisms should be avoided as much as possible in order to have the terminology be of best service to the reader. The people that participate in worldwide information exchange will likely have no issure in refering back to the original english term, if they wish to discuss certain topics.

          3. With regard to Italian, I left only two expressions unchanged from the original English language. They are “No contact” and “Gaslighting”. This is because in Italian literature about the narcissism are always used these very expressions. All the others were been translated with an appropriate meaning in Italian, for example, Fuel = Carburante; Silent Treatment = Trattamento del Silenzio; Hoover = Recupero, although the real meaning of this word in Italian would be “Aspirapolvere”, but not in such a case. Pity Play = Gioco di Pietà, Smearing = Diffamazione (so To smear = Diffamare), although the real meaning of this word in Italian would be “Imbrattare”, but again, not in such a case. Word Salad = Insalata di Parole; Fury = Furia; Rage = Rabbia (these two words are synonims, but Fury (Furia) encompasses more than Rage (Rabbia). The Dirty Little Secret is Il Piccolo Sporco Segreto; the IPSS Shelf (I’ve been actually this type of IPSS, hence my nom-de-plume) is La IPSS (or Fonte Secondaria) da Scaffale; the IPPS is La Fonte Primaria, and so on. This is also for Abe that arose the matter of the chosen words

          4. SSU,

            Thank you.
            In my opinion, you chose very wise.

            So for IPPS, IPSS and so on, generally you translated the expanded versions, but kept the English acronyms?
            How did you differentiate between intimate and non-intimate sources?

          5. In effect when I started to translate, about 18 months ago, I initially decided to leave the original acronyms, but then several (Italian) readers of my blog complained that they had some difficulty to understand, so I chose to use the extended expression

          6. How dare they complain? Do they not realise how lucky they are to have had such works of genius translated (almost whole) for them. To the dungeon with them!

          7. It’s a joke, howerver there is a part of truth. Infact many readers claim that they often fail to read your articles to the end because they feel angry and upset to see how evil and malicious you are, as all their narcissists. This fact leaves me surprised, because I don’t feel and I’ve never felt that way. If it wouldn’t have been so, I couldn’t translate your articles at all. Instead I apprecciate so much the concepts you express, simple and direct. As victims who were abused and finally managed to escape the narcissists we need truth, even if it’s a nasty truth, we don’t need other lies and embellishments. Moreover, in my regard, if I haven’t seen how much evil there is into narcissist’s heart and soul, now I would feel as all that I have lived in these 4 years was only my fault, even if it’ s not. That’s why I chose to follow only your work, leaving aside other supposed “psychatrists” who are trying to put themselves under the spotlight. I see a certuni degree of hypochrisy even among victims…or maybe they’re again under the effect of their emotional thinking.

          8. Thank you Stella.
            In a sense it is almost laughable the way some people respond as you could say to them, “He is an admitted narcissistic psychopath, what did you expect that he would do?”
            The truth is nasty, it is brutal and it is empowering.

          9. In fact I always tell them so. In my opinion it’s all due to the emphatic trait of positivity: they simply fail to understand evil’s existence

          10. Stella, brava. You did what a real translator does: research, compare the information, contrast, choose accordingly, and TRANSFER the meaning based on equivalence from one culture (not just language) to the next, which is the goal. You don’t need to justify anything here. A good translation shows in itself, it doesn’t need to be explained. If you need to add a footnote, and explanation or any extra information other than the original text, you fail as a translator. Most people here are just talking without knowing what translating is, the many techniques involved, or the tools available. Your end result reads well, conveys the same sense in the target language and serves the same purpose as the original text. Buon lavoro!

          11. Oh, anch’io ero la Fonte Secondaria da Scaffale. Haha. Benvenuta!

  13. Congratulations, great stuff!

    We need more languages 🙂 We could do a translation project online … I saw this done for Harry Potter – the German fan community had the translation out before the official translation was there, they debated and fixed the terminology online and they had a system with which they checked that the translations that were sent in were any good. You translated a small chunk like 2 pages (this would be something like the length of one blog article), uploaded it and it had to pass the quality check by 2 readers before it was compiled and passed around.

    I contributed for fun and was thus allowed to read the entire book (for copyright reasons only contributors were allowed to download the entire translation) – and it compared very well with the official one-man translation – it was as good.

    Fuel in German? Treibstoff I’d say 🙂

    1. LC, that sounds like so much fun! Does that mean you got to read the book before the release? With regards to fuel, I’d go with Kraftstoff. Same meaning but these two nouns fused together evoke the image of “the substance that gives them strength”.

      1. Desiree! Yay! Now I do not feel as lonely over here! Yay!!! Please remember me Desiree, when HG Does German videos and books, if he has not done so, or HG, as we call it I heard: High German.

          1. Desiree, Yes! I responded over there, regarding the HG. Thank you.

          2. Ah now I get it you’re YouTube buddies 🙂

            But I also don’t feel so lonely anymore 🙂

            Nice to meet you Désiree!

      2. Desirée

        No, the English book was already published, you had to buy that, and the translation project started on the day of the release. If I remember correctly, first you had to send in your two pages which were assessed by the two readers. The pages were assigned by some algorithm. If your translation was good you were in. If it wasn’t (as in : used Google translate) you were out. If they were so lala you could download the translation and could carry on translating but your version wasn’t used for the final published version. There were loads of HP fans of course so a lot of material to choose from…. And a lot of professional people contributed because they loved it! They especially loved debating the terminology while they were at it…

        1. LC,
          how would you translate fury? It is often used interchangeably with anger in German. I think “Weißglut” would the perfect fit. It is distinct and helps highlight the difference between what normals and empaths feel on the regular and how a narc can react to being slighted. It is also distinguished and therefore matches the tone of HGs rich vocabulary.

          1. Desiree: I think that FURY definitely does NOT need to be changed in German. The sound of the word is in the language already. Like Fuhrer. It has the sound of Anger. Almost a double entendre? Although a Technical Term, it is also a cognate in many languages as well: I just checked google and it is: Furia in Italian. This idea I posted earlier about NOT TRANSLATING HG Tudor`s Lexicon is really pressing heavily upon me. HG is a Pioneer so he has to bring with him what is salvageable from the old, such as Gaslighting (from the film) and Hoover (from the vacuum cleaner) etc. and bring with him the new, such as FUEL from his own original lexicon, and perhaps FURY as his own as well, since he is the person that I heard about FURY from. Most just mention the narcissistic injury, and rarely the WOUNDING, if I ever did hear wounding from them, that HG constantly discuses, and I never heard anyone else mention the sometimes resulting resulting FURY, that HG expands on, as well. And HG has to keenly and diligently keep track of what he has brought and is bringing to the field and thereby keep his Legacy intact in his focus, because the other mental practitioners, understandably, are worried about themselves, even though they follow him and say so and thank him. HG as a Pioneer has a double duty: To salvage the best of the old and to bravely and courageously push through the new that he is famous for bringing. That excellent New that he brought and is bringing can not be watered down.

          2. Desirée

            “Fury” would simply be “Wut” for me. It’s important to check the collocations and semantic fields as well that the term belongs to. For instance “fuel” works so well not only because the image is easy to understand but also because it’s short and has related verbs and participles. How do you translate “I’m well fuelled” – maybe something like “ich bin gut betankt”? And the word “fuel” is gone…. One would have to see in the context of one can retain the metaphor in creative ways.

            With Fury / Wut you can retain furious / wütend.

            Weißglut / ?

            You’d have to get creative and leave the clear and simple translation and invent something like “weißglühend”. Nice but too poetic for the purpose of explaining a basic concept.

            I agree with you that HGs texts are highly poetic and literary in places. That’s why I read them, that’s why follow this blog. I just love to read them.

            But there is also a high degree of clarity when it comes to the concepts – so I’d argue for “Wut”.

            In my eyes it’s also not so wrong to use some of the already established vocabulary. (Narzisstische) Wut and also Kränkung (“wounding”) are well known German terms.

            But I’ve got a question for you: what’s a midranger in German!

            A “midranger“ like PSE might suggest?

          3. Very interesting LC, im finding this exchange of ideas and the suggestion of loan words of interest.

          4. I agree with LC. If you sell a book which is supposed to be a translation and you don’t translate half the terms in it, what sort of translation is it? Also, it’s very Anglocentric to pretend everyone will understand the English words. There are many victims of narcissism that do not speak any English but still need help and need to understand the concepts. Translating is fun but it’s also a job and expert translators have a very deep knowledge of linguistics, language analysis, praxis and social context/technical terminology to do so. I wouldn’t be offering random opinions without having done this professionally before and without having fluency in the target language you are translating to and the source you translate from. Besides, for excellence in product quality, it is always recommended to do direct (and not inverse) translation.

          5. PSE, I understand what you’re alluding to but keep in mind that to a German native speaker, the word “Fury” does not evoke the same response as “Führer” does to you and they would likely not even consider these words as very similar. Also, the word “Führer” does not necessarily carry the same connotation to us as it does to you, because it is closesly linked to “Führung”, which simply means leadership. Therefore, using the word Fury would not conjure the mental image that you rightly feel so strongly about, making it less accessible and relatable to a German audience than it would be to you.
            Keep in mind that the reason why these exact words mean so much to you is because for you, they hit just the right spot and describe precisely what you are feeling and experiencing. For a foreigner, it would simply be an unknown word that has no emotional resonance and if a new concept comes with several anglicisms attached, it can make some readers feel like they have to “jump through hoops” in order to get to the crux of the matter, which can be alienating.
            This also can’t be ameliorated by choosing a similar word. We have the words “Furie” and “furios” but while you might think they are a better choice because they don’t stray as far from HGs original term, the first just describes a crazy woman and the second is a broad term for “hot-headed”, neither show the reader what to look out for when engaging with a narcissist.
            Finally, these decisions are not mutually exclusive. You could use a more intuitive term for the purpose of furthering the readers understanding and at the same time keep track and remind of the fact that the original english term is “Fuel”, “Fury” etc. by compiling a table, mentioning it in entries and books and so on and so forth. This could be helpful in case someone wishes to engage in global debate by using these terms, although they would likely just skip any translations and come here straight away. The only possible upside I see in using the original terms in translations would be to make the exchange with people from other german-speaking websites that are already aware of these terms (because of the plagiarising), easier. But why would you want that when you could have a bespoke translation and an official page from the mastermind himself?

          6. LC,
            “weißglühend” could actually be used in that context and I have seen it used in Literature. However, I would go with “zur Weißglut bringen/gebracht werden”, which is especially apt, given that it is the passive form and a Narcissist will often act like you where the one who made him act this way. Wut wouldn’t cut it because it simply means anger, and normals and empaths would say that they get angry as well.
            Containing wütend as a closer translation because it means furious would not help much either, because HG rarely uses the verb but goes with ignited Fury, ignites Fury etc.
            Most don’t yet understand the full range of narcissistic fury, which is why Weißglut works as a superlative and distinction.

            In terms of the schools, I would suggest:
            Lesser – Niederer/Niederrangiger Narzisst
            MR – Mittlerer/Mittelrangiger Narzisst
            Greater- Höherer/Hochrangiger Narzisst

            I would go with the second one of each because it alludes to the mid-“range” thing. Lesser could just be categorised as Niederer, though, no point in waisting syllables.

          7. I do find such discussions rewarding intellectually. They are superior to discussions about cakes, moisturiser and sex toys!

          8. I bought a new body oil today at Target so don’t knock moisturizer, cake and sex toy discussions. Finding a good skin care product is unparalleled.

          9. My delight will arrive when I can finally hit the shower, shave my Neanderthal legs and try it out!

          10. I’ll look—I’m headed to the gym. Can’t recall—it’s not a typical brand.

          11. Sweetest (HG correct my interpretations if needed) I can’t recall the thread where you were discussing your upper lesser debacle with (I think some) disdain. I’ll ramble a bit here though and maybe only a few pieces are applicable to your thoughts. I think Sitting Target which discusses the particular connections is helpful and understanding who we may attract is good information. I also think we can get caught up in it unfortunately. Why? My dear friend I met in a divorce group had HG do a narc profile. She swears her estranged husband is a greater—I knew it was not the case. He was profiled as a middle lower. Her emotional thinking is so high that at times I have to cut off the discussions—she’s obsessed he’s plotted against her and that HG just doesn’t understand how intelligent he is and that his questions are not well rounded enough to determine this. She is in a circle of misery which has incapacitated her ability to move forward. The label has her quite stuck and partially due to pride. A lesser! I mean we have wainscoting and a nice house! A lesser/middle! It’s a conversation I simply cannot have again. It’s also embarrassing to intermingle with a clown! (The pride) I see loads of reference to entanglements with “greaters” on here and it is exaggerated. As if it elevates one’s status! HG has told me greaters are not even necessarily smarter than a successful mid-ranger! “It’s how the intelligence is deployed.” The point gets lost that basically greaters simply have self-awareness and higher energy so the machinations vary. I wouldn’t want a higher energy calculated pain in my ass. I’m also certain you or I (from what I know of you on here) would ever self flagellate enough to date a trailer dwelling toothless loser! So, confession.. I guarantee my college boyfriend (a flashy bar owner/country club golf guy) WAS an upper lesser. He fits it like a glove. He is now deceased—of all places he dropped dead gambling in Atlantic City. (He blew almost 100k one night we were there)
            He also threw a coffee table into a wall one night! He was attractive and successful but blew in and out of a room like a tornado. So, there we go. We’ve both fucked a lesser. Who cares! My gift in life is that I have a beautiful relationship with his ex-wife and daughter that has lasted over 20 years:)

          12. Lorelei, I was just joking. You have no idea what a relief I felt to know he is not a Greater (even though I knew he couldn’t be, because he’s not sophisticated at all). I can’t disclose the content of HG’s analysis but he described my narc with a sentence that was extremely on point with the level of energy my narc transpires and that you also captured perfectly with your image of the tornado. That’s him, he comes and goes and makes a lot of noise and then leaves. I still hacen’t seen my narc in any violent outburst, he definitely gets mad in online chats and likes to provoke people on threads (not in the Pamela fashion, a little more intellectually) but I have never seen him being aggressive. I have pepper spray just in case, haha. I joked about his school because he would hate to hear he is a Lesser, as arrogant as he is. Now, the Somatic part is very very high, he looks extremely good. But I didn’t fuck him!

          13. Haha—you didn’t even get sex out of this mess? My boyfriend at the time wasn’t horrible at it. Not so memorable though.. He had flashy cars, he threw money around endlessly, neglected his children, cheated, lost all his money.. It is ridiculous—but guess who gets flowers from his ex-wife? Guess who says to this day I taught them math and made it come alive? (His son who I don’t have frequent contact with unfortunately because he grew up taking stride with dad and is a likely narcissist.) His ex-wife is a class act and taught me life lessons that are invaluable. There is always good in these tornadoes if you look.

          14. I couldn’t! He had premature ejaculation! The whole world knows, Lorelei.

          15. PE is a maddening disappointment Sweetest. I’d ghost someone for it and HG would get a narc detector on me. How amusing would that be?

          16. So men with PE get no contact?! Seems the contact is the problem so makes sense..

          17. PSE

            “The sound of the word is in the language already. Like Fuhrer.”

            Oh come on, PSE, pleeeeeeeease!
            Can we please do away with ethno-essentialism? Please, please please?

            I know we let the biggest psychopath of all times lose on the world (at least I hope he will remain the biggest because he’s dead) but please, it’s so exhausting to find that German and the Germans are still routinely associated with that horrible man in a way as if he was still around.

            In a different thread somebody mentioned the Dresden bombings as if the place was still a WWII site, also only recently. Man it’s annoying.

            Fury would not be understood, it has nothing to do with Führer which means leader. Fury is the name of a well-known children’s book featuring a horse of that name.

            As for HG being a pioneer: that’s not exactly the case. There is a long tradition of researching and recognising narcissism. The word narcissism as a psychological concept was first introduced in the 1880s if I’m not mistaken.

            Research into narcissism is substantial and HGs work is also based on that, on the insight of his “good doctors”, as well as on his own observations. Credit where credit is due please….(HG credits some theorists, e. g. in “Fuel”).

          18. I think what PSE means LC is that I am a pioneer in the way I open up greater understanding of narcissism and my delivery of that information is light years from other commentators because of the way concepts are conveyed and light is shed on many hitherto unseen matters. I don’t think she means I am the first to address narcissism as a subject. If one looks at it in that manner you are both correct, I am not a pioneer with regard to the concept of narcissism, I am a pioneer with regard to explaining it and developing many areas within the concept and the leading resource in that regard.

            Dresden is a very pleasant city actually. We bombed it to pieces in WW2 and the then enemy did the same to Coventry. Both cities were extensively rebuilt post WW2. Dresden is now very pleasant and Coventry er is not. Oddly enough I shall be in Dresden next month (Berlin too) and very much looking forward to being there.

          19. Desiree: I desired to give my input. It is up to HG Tudor to decide what he feels is best to do. He can leave out all or most of his Lexicon if he so chooses, because he agrees with you all, and I would be very at peace with it, because all I can do is give my input on what I think is best for him, according to what he works for, including his Legacy in his field, because I respect him and I like him, or I absolutely would not bother at all with my council in the matter. And, I am still pleased with my input, Desiree, even if it is rejected, although I surely doubt that all my input will be rejected. But, these days, who knows.

          20. Your constructive input is always welcome PSE, like those of other readers and your interest in the matter and your loyalty is noted and appreciated.

          21. Desiree: Next time, if something like this comes up. I will make a little bitty statement. If I meet resistance, I will not have taken the time to give an effective treatment that will be verbally rejected to me, but still have influence. Whew. I went through this in University. I had Research Professors, some, do this to me in front of other students that they liked and respected more, and then still followed what I said, afterwards. Very unrewarding for me. I learned to keep my mouth shut, when I was around the ones like that. Then afterwards, they would say weeks later, PSE, you don’t have anything to say in class lately, on various days, and I would say, not at this time, and I would say to myself, no way. lol. I am not saying this is happening here, but for some reason it does remind me of those times.

          22. Desiree: Now, at least, you are addressing HG Tudor`s Lexicon at least with the mention of some tables placed in the books. You see, it is a matter of purpose. My purpose is to protect his Legacy. One of his greatest gifts to this field is his Lexicon and which is a large part of his great Legacy, within his own time. Many people can discuss Narcissism. And a lot of the foundation is laid down. Many people can translate books well enough. However, HG`s Lexicon specifically and particularly ,etc. separates him from most of both the genuine practitioners and the charlatans in his field. His Lexicon is Special, Fantastic, Amazing. HG`s Lexicon created a breakthrough in this field. To not make HG Tudor`s Lexicon of the most highest Importance, especially because of how his Lexicon has expanded this field, is unfathomable to me. Completely unfathomable.

          23. PSE

            “I had Research Professors, some, do this to me in front of other students that they liked and respected more, and then still followed what I said, afterwards. Very unrewarding for me. I learned to keep my mouth shut, when I was around the ones like that. Then afterwards, they would say weeks later, PSE, you don’t have anything to say in class lately, on various days, and I would say, not at this time, and I would say to myself, no way. lol. I am not saying this is happening here, but for some reason it does remind me of those times.”

            Very sorry to hear that, PSE, and now that I know how sensitive you are as regards criticism I regret having sent a post (that’s still in moderation that’s critical of what you’ve written because you said something that hit a raw nerve with me) .

            Please don’t ever want to keep your mouth shut unless you know deep down that this is the best course of action.

            Personally I found Désiree’s answer to you very thoughtful, a lot more thoughtful than my own that’s not online yet.

            If I had been aware of your experience I would perhaps answered your comment more in the way Désiree has. (Certainly not how I personally responded to you myself yesterday).

            (What you describe about your classroom experience is a total no go – I hope I have never done anything like it)

            I’m struggling to think now what’s wrong with her answer. You kind of showed that translation is not your field and someone pointed out what’s there to think about.

            Aren’t we all here to learn from one another? What exactly was it that made you think of those classroom experiences?

          24. PSE and HG

            “I think what PSE means LC is that I am a pioneer in the way I open up greater understanding of narcissism and my delivery of that information is light years from other commentators because of the way concepts are conveyed and light is shed on many hitherto unseen matters”

            True and I think I know that too.
            I agree that you are the best at explaining narcissism and make things visible that were clouded to many.

            I got upset about the Führer comment. And PSE liked idealising you – that wasn’t a good combo. I do know though that we carry the Nazi burden and that we must continue to do so.

            I’ve mentioned my gran. She didn’t let on that she was a raging Nazi – that she was not, is a lie I had to discover in a painful process. My grandfather whom I never got to know was too. But there was never any admission, this too I discovered in a painful process of going through family documents that did not have any OBVIOUS evidence. All that was destroyed is course.

            Germany is in the greatest need of all countries to have your books and articles out because an entire country was ensnared and is still dealing with the aftermath (as can be seen in the fact that PSE’s comment upset me).

            Gotta go now 🙂

          25. The Führer comment was clumsy but not malicious. PSE is loyal to me and my work and that is her intention as opposed to being provocative, I daresay you recognise that.

            You make a valid point with regard to need.

          26. HG

            Very briefly : I didn’t think PSE’s comment was malicious whatsoever. Not at all.

            My response was not a good one – what I get upset about is the routine association of current Germany with WWII Germany. It is hardly ever malicious. I encounter it at lot. Oh and I should add that this is sore point also because I encountered it in an intimate relationship. In repeated “jokes” that aren’t really funny but erode your sense of self worth. And there it was malicious except I couldn’t see it for a long time.

        2. LC. Also Germany and its people are not a newly discovered race from the Amazon Jungle. What percentage speak English? I would guess a good percentage. And, there has to be a way to use Hg`s Lexicon in combination with a Country’s Native language, yes. Maybe with an Asterisk? Or a hyphen? Or Parenthesis? My primary concern is to both protect HG`s Legacy and his Lexicon as well as to distribute his work. Surely we can do all. No false choices permitted. We can do all. As the wise proverb says,there is safety with a multitude of council, including my council, in this matter of translations.

          1. PSE

            “Also Germany and its people are not a newly discovered race from the Amazon Jungle. What percentage speak English? I would guess a good percentage.”

            No idea PSE. We’re not a race btw, a highly diverse country with ethnically diverse people…

            The problem is, PSE, that midrangers and other questionable folks with a good command of English are beginning to steal HGs ideas. It’s done in subtle ways. It’s easier to plagiarise into another language if you know what you’re doing. Sadly I had to develop a nose for plagiarism because students do it all the time if you don’t let them know upfront that you’ve got indeed a nose for it.

            The best way to combat that is to get the translations out in a high quality – a quality that’s better than the “adaptations”. This is because people are lazy. Unless they’re language addicts such as myself they will want to read things in their native language.

            Also, HGs work is very literary – this makes it hard to understand for people who know how to ask for the way to the metro station but not much else beyond.

            High quality translation means following the established standards of translation, as Désiree and SP have pointed out.

            Désiree: excellent post, I totally agree. (and hadn’t thought about furios – which can mean wonderful !)

          2. Desiree and LC: HG`s Lexicon and Terminology are not an INCONVENIENCE that has to be dealt with when translated. HG`s Lexicon and Terminology ARE THE MAIN EVENT. If any translator feels themselves inconvenienced by his Terminology and Lexicon, and feel irritated in ensuring that it is made clear and stands out in any translation, in a way that traces back to him in his entire body of work, that is a problem. If it were my work, I would hire the best translators that I could and then say, Here is a list of words and phrases, that must be in the my Original Tongue, and then translated in every Chapter: such as FURY, and FUEL, and WOUNDING, and Lower and Middle and Greater and Elite Narcissist and Geyser Empath and Contagion Empath, and Lieutenants and Minions, etc. etc. etc. etc. and whatever I put on that list. I would have no problem doing so. HG should ensure without a doubt, that his Terminology and Lexicon is made known in all translations. He is the one that can seperate it all. I have heard too many times by other mental practitioners that his Terminology and Lexicon have expanded the field tremendously. That is how I first heard of HG Tudor, by other mental practitioners praising him. When I read other books. I see phases of the original language all the time, when that phrase or word is important to the writer, then a translation in the language English, follows.. Like the word: Schadenfreude. There is no exact English word, plus the original word has a certain feel to it that an English equivalent does not. Also French Words, and phrases etc I am presented the Original word or pharse, and then an explanation. Even in fiction novels. How much more should this be done in a clinical literary style work. Regarding the word Fuhrer and Fury. HG said that the feeling of Fury is so very strong that most people other than Narcissist do not feel that extent of rage. It has nothing to do with me placing a value judgment of Hitler. I know little about him other than a few documentaries and that one may get into political trouble by saying his name, if one is a political figure or a celebrity. But, he was known, from what I hear to be furious regarding moving Germany forward. I know Fuhrer means leader. I googled it. Anyway, so, I stay away from even saying his name, because I have no need to say his name, and have no reason to get into trouble over someone I never researched. Also, it should not be a problem to believe and to be excited by someone if they tell you two plus two equals four, And, eight plus eight equals sixteen, etc, etc. and when you check, it is true. I believe what HG Tudor says because what he says is true when I check including many things that I have never posted on here. I respect that. And I like him as well. But translation is both an art and a science, and all works can not be translated in exactly the same manner, especially when technical terms are involved. The new must be respected when it is a breakthrough and handled in the most respectful manner. Also the old way is not always the best way to do things. And experts can learn. And sometimes old ways can make a society fail, when the better new ways are pushed aside, because some feel it should not be handled in a different matter, out of respect of the old methods. Even in translating. Or they do not want to wrestle with figuring out a way to do something differently. Many talk about Narcissism. Many write books about Narcissism. Many Translate. Many are followers. Many are not bringing anything new. HG is state of the art and ahead of his time in this field. If not him, show me who is outdoing him. Therefore, HG`s Technical terms and Lexcon are not an inconvenience to be worked into translations. They are The Main Event. He has to insist upon this. This is not a question of translating, this is a question of Maintaining his legacy and even getting it right the first time, and I find value in all this input, but in this case, I find the greatest value in my own input, because of my purpose in making sure his legacy is established before someone cunning starts encroaching. Many ideas and inventions are grabbed from their creators. While they were sleeping, so to speak.

        3. mittlerer Rang? or which translates auf Englisch (in English) to Middle rank.

          I don’t think there is a direct translation for ‘range’ or ‘ranger’. Translation is important but prose is much easier to translate than poetry, so ‘getting lost’ amid the translation is not such an issue when dealing with prose.

          I have read poets that have been translated badly and the poems were crap, as result. Then have it translated better and the same poems were excellent.

          A lot of times the ‘free novels’ offered on Kindle that are translated into English are often translated very poorly. The Japanese novelists are a good example where I have seen this occur.

          My fave German word might be Weltschmerz.

          1. Bibi

            Another German speaker, yay!

            Yes, I’ve also found that some texts get better in translation, especially works that are syntactically complex with a lot of jargon in them… But only those texts get better in translation that are cap to start with, and that’s not one of the problems we have here, hahaha

            I just checked how ‘ranger” is translated in GoT: ‘ Grenzer’. That doesn’t help….

            Is the ranger bit necessary at all?

            How about:

            Niederer Narzisst
            Mittlerer Narzisst
            Gehobener Narzisst?

            What about gender inflections?

            Niedere/r Narzisst/in
            Mittlere/r Narzisst/in
            Gehobene/r Narzisst/in?

            My favourite English word is “wheely bin” 🙂

          2. I like Niederer, Mittlerer and Gehobener Narzisst

            How would you go about the subdivisions?

            I would suggest:

            Unterer Mittlerer Narzisst
            Mittiger Mittlerer Narzisst
            Oberer Mittlerer Narzisst

            Cadres

            Opfer (do we have an alternative here?)
            Somatisch
            Zerebral

          3. Hi Desirée,

            re: Victim N. – ” Opfer (do we have an alternative here?)”

            Der Leider
            Der Mitleidige
            Both are used in Susan Forward’s Emotionale Erpressung.

            As for Gaslighting, the English term appears in different German articles about narcissism. I would not use Gehirnwäsche since this is brainwash. Gaslighting is more specific.

          4. Désiree

            “Unterer Mittlerer Narzisst
            Mittiger Mittlerer Narzisst
            Oberer Mittlerer Narzisst

            Cadres

            Opfer (do we have an alternative here?)
            Somatisch
            Zerebral”

            How about :

            Mittlerer Narzisst (Unterstufe)
            Mittlerer Narzisst (Mittelstufe)
            Mittlerer Narzisst (Oberstufe)

            Cadres

            Opfer (sounds indeed odd) – maybe Opfertyp?
            Somatisch
            Intellektuell?

          5. LC:

            Good suggestion with Mittlerer Narzisst.

            I must also confess that I dabble in German for fun but also that conversing with me on anything of depth (in German that is) will lead you disappointed.

            I enjoy reading it aloud when I study and add to the vowels a lack of that ‘guttural’ sound that many are used to hearing given my natural accent.

          6. LC
            Opfertyp might work. Or maybe Benachteiligt, since the others are substantivierte Adjektive as well? I’m thinking about Intellektuell, too.
            Problem with the subdivisions might be that HG often uses them like this
            “…,whereas the Upper Mid-Ranger is more likely to react with xyz”, so it would help to keep them as an adjective.
            Would you keep Hoover and Silent Treatment as anglicisms or translate them?

          7. E.B.
            great input! Leider and Mitleidige are terms I had not yet considered and they open up a few more possible variations. I agree that Gehirnwäsche is not ideal, although the term brainwashing is almost never used with regards to Narcissism, which I find quite odd and am not sure why that is the case. I kind of like Gaslighting to be translated into Gasleuchten however, because it relates to the german translation of the movie that some might like to watch to further educate themselves. Also, some blogs have used the english term, but the explanation is quite confusing and incorrect, so it might not be helpful to attach to that.
            Do you have any opinions on how Hoover might be translated?

          8. Desirée,
            I agree with using the German translation. I did not know about it since it still appears as Gaslighting on Wikipedia (as a form of psychological manipulation).
            As for Hoover, I have not found any translation into German so far. They seem to call it ‘Hoovering’.

          9. E.B.
            Yeah I saw Hoovering being used, too but I may have found a different alternative although one would have to see how this would translate within the context of a blog post or book.
            I also posted some more translations I have been thinking about, it’s at the top of this comment section. If you’re interested, I would love to hear your input, this is kind of fun to talk about!

          10. Desirée, LC, PSE and Bibi,

            I have been reading your comments and opinions with interest and I am so glad that all of you want to do justice to HG’s work.

            HG has put a lot of effort in creating his own terminology which is part of his legacy. IMO, investing time in creating a terminology database for other languages is very important and not only to ensure consistency.
            All these terms and expressions will be used for his present and future work. If poorly chosen, his translated work will not be properly understood by new readers who have not read his original work. Many professional translators do not take/have the time to this.

            In order to be able to work as a team, I thought about creating a Glossary in a Spreadsheet with access granted to translators/collaborators.

            I am sure there are different possibilities to do this. One of them is Google Docs.
            Google Docs documents are stored on Google drive (not on the owner’s local computer). The owner creates a document and decides who he will share his file(s) with. It will not be a Public file. Among other things, the Owner can prevent editors from changing access and adding new people, etc.

            Spreadsheets can be easily imported into a CAT tool (translation memory software). To avoid any misunderstanding, I am not speaking about TM (translation machines).

            This was just a suggestion. I am sure most of your have heard about better ones.

            (Desirée, I have not seen your other translations you mentioned yet. I will let you know. I got lost in this thread couple of times!:-))

        4. PSE,
          I liked your input and while I would suggest a slightly different approach to the one you’ve suggested, wanting to protect HGs Legacy while expanding it’s reach is a sentiment we share.
          From what I have observed, a lot of HGs terminology is already floating around german websites to describe the narcissistic dynamic. It was not only stolen from him, but is ill translated and misunderstood. Only yesterday, I found a german woman that attempted to describe the “Hoover” on her blog, but started out talking about Gaslighting instead. It infuriated me that she would not only be so entitled as to plagiarise his work, but has now given the term a completely wrong meaning in the mind of her readers.
          I also noticed that while she was throwing his english terminology around in a desperate attempt to seem knowledgeable, I do not see any victims on these platforms describing their situation in such terms, they use german words instead. So my conclusion would be that even though some of the english terms have already crossed our borders, they have done so in a fashion that is faulty and confusing in the worst case and non-intuitive in the best.
          Perhaps, in order to repair the damage that has been done by these people, it would be better to set up a german terminology that actually furthers understanding instead of trying to re-explain what a “Hoover” really is. Victims of narcissistic abuse are already confused and just want to understand what is happening to them, wanting to be part of HGs Legacy and spreading the word comes after that.
          It would be interesting to see if by setting up a solid german terminology and combining it with HGs excellent work, we could actually get it to catch on, the way these imposters and their lazy translations have tried and failed to do. We could then compile a table to help keep track of the terminology. If german readers on the blog where to complain about not having enough anglicisms to learn (I expect most would be relieved to find a translation that is free of that), we could still revert to the english terms. It could be an experiment geared towards finding out what is of most use to the readers, instead of wanting to leave a mark on them without ensuring their needs and interests are met first, the same way they are here.
          With regards to the Führer comment, I took no offense to that. I understand that this is what comes to mind first for most people, but I love my country and it’s rich culture and history regardless. So while I wish things had been different, they haven’t and I feel no need to dwell on it.

          1. Desiree: Gaslight is a movie: You give them the name of the movie, in English so they can watch it even. https://youtu.be/UYmtzaHwCKoThen you can translate the word for them. Hoover is the name of a vacuum cleaner. You give them the correct name. One can even show them the photo of one. https://youtu.be/UYmtzaHwCKoYou give them the original word, from where it is derived with the translation. You do not take away the original. There is no false choice. Do both.

          2. PSE, I am aware of that. I brought up these examples to illustrate my point and show that there are various possible approaches.

          3. Desiree: Remember, some people do not know the origin of: Gaslighting someone, so I mentioned the origin here, because it was brought up here. But, in case my point was missed as this feed is growing longer, I did post this info. addressed to no one in particular, at the top of the page. It took a while when I started learning about Narcissism before I heard anyone mentioned that the technical term Gaslighting was derived from a film.

          4. Desiree. Re: Mid Range Narcissist. Does not Range in this instance seem similar to the word Level? Is there a German word for Level? A Middle Level Narcissist?

        5. Re: HG finds this discussion intellectually stimulating and superior to discussions about cakes, moisturziers and sex toys.

          Duly noted. Althought I have you know I did not participate in the aforementioned topics and a Lady would never discuss the third in polite company. Or otherwise.
          I strongly favour discussions about fragrances, watches and cars and may start similar conversations in the future, should the opportunity present itself.
          But yes, discussing possible translations for your terminology is both interesting and useful.

          1. Indeed, it was not directed at you Desiree, I was pulling the leg of the coffee club!

          2. There are plenty of things discussed here which have no bearing on narcissism (so much so that I have actually had to check the name of the blog on occasion) and yes, that includes discussions that I have been involved in, but lets not start ranking which of the non-narcissism subjects is more cerebral or acceptable than others. Everyone contributes in a different way and not everyone will agree with the content of others, but that does not mean any particular contribution is more important or resonates with everyone. Cake, sex toys, shoes, movie critiques, cars, jokes (good and bad) and outfits all hold the same appeal to me no matter the “club” the contributor is perceived to belong to.

          3. I allow a degree of leniency. Sometimes the discussion begins on topic and will drift in a certain direction which is linked to, but not direct, to the original topic. For example, the article about Narcissists and Gifts means people may well talk about gift giving generally and then perhaps talk about particular items. That is understood as a potential consequence. I also allow it as part of enabling people to create a degree of familiarity for themselves so they then feel better able to “speak up” on the blog.
            Where something is mentioned briefly which is unrelated, I again let that pass for reasons of establishing familiarity but I will draw the line where something is mentioned which is wholly unrelated and goes on for some time.
            The majority of comments are focused on narcissism and there is no issue with some levity from time to time as I have explained before and the natural segue into certain topics, but unrelated and elongated ones become cluttering.

          4. HG
            I understand that you allow leniency and I appreciate it. Not what I meant, but never mind.

          5. HG,
            I am hoping you will understand what I am about to write, I am in no way trying to offend you.
            Yes you do show a lot of leniency and we all appreciate you doing so. I’m just going to come out and say this. Since this blog started four years ago the people commenting on here have been encouraged to do so. We tell everyone that there comments are not stupid, everyone on here is important and what we talk about is important, lately however this blog is full of attention seeking, snotty, know it all individuals who half the time I question if they have really been involved with a narcissist! The people that come on here are hurt and in pain, if we slide off topic and talk about cake, sex toys, and moisturizers ( and you allow it ) which actually allows someone to laugh and perhaps feel human again after what they have gone through then I say that is a good thing. If you don’t like it ( not you HG ) then don’t read it! Some people may not want to discuss cars, watches, fragrances, or wait! What did I read earlier, (I’m not sure if it was this thread or not?) Hair moisturizer? That is fine also, skip over it! There is not one person on this blog that is more important than another no matter what they may think! How intelligent you are, how many languages you speak, whether you’re rich or poor, it doesn’t matter here, or at least it didn’t before, has that changed HG? We have gone from Tudorites, to now coffee clubs? ( That doesn’t really matter either, we have been called much worse) but that doesn’t mean that One non-narcissism comment should be seen as more or less acceptable simply because of who is writing it! I can’t ever remember this blog being as emotionally draining as it is now. I am sorry if I offended you in anyway HG that was never my intention. I will always hold you in the highest regards and with the utmost respect. I am simply tired of a place that was created by you for people to feel safe and accepted, a sanctuary to most of us, now it is being turned into a place where some are afraid to speak out or comment because they feel they will anger someone or say the wrong thing. That’s very sad, very sad indeed.

          6. Nobody should be afraid to speak, there is no basis here for such a fear. Any such fear is misplaced. My reference to the coffee club was a joking reference to certain frequent commentators who I have no issue with, who sometimes drift off topic although I know why they do.

          7. Thank you HG,
            My ET was extremely high yesterday and I know my comment did not state clearly what I was trying to get across, which is something I have often had trouble expressing. (sometimes it is best if I just keep silent.) Today is a new day and all of this just doesn’t seem as important as it did yesterday. Have a wonderful day and fab weekend HG. Take care.

          8. FM1T, I spoke in Italian because it was the Italian thread and ***thought*** the comments were gonna be in that language, not to show off. I talked about translation because it’s something I’ve done for many years and I’d like to help HG if he thinks I’m needed at some point for articles. My apologize if I made anyone feel bad about it. I like talking about things I know and are passionate about (philosophy, literature, translation, multiple orgasms, dick pics -the latter I’m not passionate about though I’ve become an expert on, against my will-). What I don’t do is to comment on other topics I have no clue about, for example, when some experts on psychology talk about their field. I have nothing to contribute. And yes, I scroll down many comments I’m not interested in either, that’s understandable and no one should feel bad about it.

          9. SP
            I hope you were not apologizing to me? I think it’s wonderful that so many of you can speak many languages, I myself have trouble with English at times. Lol. I also think it is very beneficial to you as part of your healing to do things that you enjoy and have a passion for. Being able to help HG make this blog even bigger and better then it is right now is a bonus! I also do not like to comment on areas that I know nothing about and leave that to the experts, however I use to enjoy learning about these things and would read the comments so that I could get a better understanding of what was going on and perhaps learn something. I now think if it is something I am not an expert on or understand I will simply just bypass that post.

          10. ***brief note: my translations are way better than the piece of shit paragraph I just typed quickly, sorry! I still haven’t had any coffee.

          11. Oh, Oh! FM1T, just to go back to all things narcissist: I got the results from the Narc Detector yesterday and I had to laugh. I knew he was a mediocre person, but on top of that he’s also a mediocre in his narcissism!!! Upper Lesser! (Obviously Somatic). What a loser.

          12. SP,
            I knew you would be pleased and feel better consulting with HG. We can only guess at what they might be, HG knows for sure! Proud of you Sister!! Now do an audio and learn what to do to protect your self and erase him from your life!! 😘💞

          13. The comment got sent too early and I needed to say that I was impressed by the in-depth analysis HG provided. Extraordinarily accurate. Thanks, HG.

          14. You are most welcome SP. I am the expert – I give you the answers, that is what I am here for.

          15. Of course. I am revisiting some of your works because I never saw my narc as a Lesser (sigh, I always give people too much credit) and now it totally makes sense. HG, do you happen to remember in which particular book you address the UL? I found an invaluable article where you describe the ULSomatic and at least I have the consolation that he will age awfully, depressed, and without supplies. And bald, that’s already happening. Yay.

          16. Ugh, of course I had to be targeted by the least popular one…

          17. I will shed more light on this when we speak, you will find it most enlightening in several ways.

          18. Looking forward to it. I’m a nerd, I’m re-reading in anticipation.

          19. Well I didn’t see this and sent my comment back to soon. Haha.
            Of course you were impressed SP, HG is always impressive! 😉

          20. You’re welcome HG. Those words were all true. You truly are the best at what you do.

          21. I enjoy when topics diverge a little and silliness and lightheartedness is always fun for sharing who one is because no one is ahem ‘intellectual’ all of the time, as much as we hate to admit. Even Sam V. would have to admit that.

            We are emotional beings, after all. And we eat and poop. But good topics as these are always stimulating as well. HG is kind to allow even some drunken posts escape (guilty!)

            As example, I am typing this before I do my morning workout and after having just given my 17 yr old kitty an insulin shot. Now she is napping. She is a good, old girl.

            I have to take my hat off to Rilke who was able to write creatively in both German and French. Writing creatively in another language is very difficult to master. It’s one thing to write a grocery list but another thing entirely to write a great sonnet.

            In the mentioning of Dresden bombing, I thought of that Vonnegut quote, “Dresden was like the moon now, nothing but minerals. The stones were hot. Everybody else in the neighborhood was dead. So it goes.”

          22. Honestly, at this point (coming up on 3 years reading here I think, with breaks here and there) I scroll through to just read HGs comments and what he’s responded to.

          23. NA and FM1T,

            I do not know to which extent your responses were adressing this particular comment of mine, but I would like to state the following:

            I took HGs response to me as a little nudge to comments I had previously engaged in, since I did not contribute much lately, outside of off topic conversations, due to private reasons. I am unaware of any topics you two and others have engaged in, because I spent little time on this platform lately due to time restrictions, so my comment was not directed at anyone but myself and HG. I was not sure if these particular topics included me or where referring to more recent threads, so I distanced myself from them since the topics seemed unfamiliar. Yet I felt like should hold myself accountable for off topics I started or participated in, because even though they are in the past, myself and others encouraged them to go on for several days at a time.
            Since I did not read or know about any of the threads that HG jokingly assigned to “the coffee club”, I don’t know what you where talking about and my comment about “strongly favouring” other topics was a joke with regards to what I’ve just mentioned, not a criticism of anyone else’s interests. My comments about what “a Lady” would do where also in response to what I interpreted to be a more humorous comment of HGs, not a criticism of anyone else.
            We share the sentiment of wanting an environment where people feel free to share their experience and engaging in more light-hearted conversations is a great way to ensure that.
            In that spirit, it is not acceptable to accuse someone of being attention seeking, snotty and never having been engaged with a narcissist to begin with, when there is no evidence to support that claim.

            I hope this cleans up any misunderstandings this may have aroused. Neither HG nor I meant any offense by what was stated.

          24. strongerwendyme
            I agree! I also occasionally go through the “recent posts” thread with regards to that, is there a way we could expand that window to see more of the recently posted comments, HG?

          25. I have expanded it as far as WP will allow.
            SWM, the Twitter has been fixed also.

          26. FM1T, You do make a wise and valid point, and I agree. I literally stopped posting my character analyses on the BLL thread because I did not want to invite comments that do not further the discussion on-topic.

            Non-provocative comments, whether stating personal POV or putting forward an argument with supporting evidence, are offered for another’s consideration–not to change another’s behavior or to establish “rightness”. Provocative comments are made (with or without awareness) for a variety of reasons. Some are self-driven agendas (not a judgement) and some are other agendas.

            I have no problem going toe to toe on any topic logically, but when someone seeks to stir the pot (consciously or subconsciously), conflate issues, or project, I opt out. I do not thrive on drama.

            I very much appreciate everyone is entitled to their point of view, but also feel we all gain more when the comments demonstrate a degree of mindful understanding. FM1T, I agree the blog is a respite for many, and we can offer greater empathy (and practice self awareness) by being mindful of the larger audience. Thank you for your insight and comment FM1T, well done!

          27. FYC
            Thank you, I don’t have to tell you how much your words mean to me.
            As far as you not commenting, shame on you FYC ( I’m joking love ) I love reading your comments and have learned a lot from you and it actually does sadden me to read that you stopped posting on that particular thread, although I understand why that is. You are also another one on here that always gives logical and thought out responses. I have the utmost respect for you, and I’m so glad you are here FYC.

          28. You are most kind and appreciated, FM1T, and I respect you as well.😘

            On a different topic (and off-topic) I miss your Assateague ponies on your gravitar. I hope all is well with you and yours. Your growing strength, clarity and power in your communications on the blog is impressive. Well done.

          29. Thank you FYC. Yes everything is fine with me FYC, thank you for asking though. My ponies will be back I was in need of a change is all, I have a little bit of a dark side that was scratching to come out and play. 😉 😘

          30. FM1T

            “There is not one person on this blog that is more important than another no matter what they may think! How intelligent you are, how many languages you speak, whether you’re rich or poor, it doesn’t matter here, or at least it didn’t before, has that changed HG? ”

            I’m one of the people who stirred up the BLL debate, outed myself as an academic and now I’m here discussing translations so I kind of think you might wonder if I think I’m more important …. If you do think that I want you to know that I’m sorry for any ill feelings that I caused you and others. And that I honestly don’t think I’m more important than anybody else….
            All best, LC

          31. Oh LC I have no ill feelings for you what so ever. I think it’s amazing that you have a passion for academics and languages. I believe everyone on here is important and I’m sure there are many who would love to be able to contribute more, but for reasons that may not be of there own doing, they are not able to do so. Enjoy and thrive on the knowledge you have obtained my dear. Let the world know that HG Tudor is not only the best there is in English, let them know he is the best there is in any language around the world! 🥰

      3. Désiree

        I thought about Kraftstoff too but prefer Treibstoff : stuff / the substance that drives them.

        Again you get a word field like: antreiben Antrieb etc , there are not so many possibilities with Kraftstoff…

        These discussions ARE fun!

        1. LC and Bibi (and any other German speaker that likes this discussion),

          Here are some tough ones:

          Contagion Empath

          Proximate Fuel

          Hoover by Proxy

          And also:

          Would you keep The Hoover and The Silent Treatment as anglicisms or change it to something like this:

          The Hoover – Das Staubsaugen oder Der Sog

          The Silent Treatment – Die Strafende Stille oder Die Stiller Bestrafung (maybe Das Anschweigen)

          I’ve also seen Gaslighting translated as Gasleuchten or even Gehirnwäsche, do you think those terms are a better fit?

          1. Désiree and everyone else interested

            I think it’s very important that we get German terminology fixed to stop the impostors for the reasons that Désiree points out.

            HG would you be willing to make a debating page for this — perhaps with the German flag (if wordpress allows it) and accessible from the menu bar.

            You could explain there that the German translation is coming soon.

            I’ve announced my blog break on the other thread in which I was active – I need to do that now but wanted to let you know briefly as well. Will be back for the terminology debate though. I think this is really important.

            I like das Anschweigen

            How about:
            Das große Schweigen
            Das Strafschweigen

            NA

            I think HGs comment was a gentle nudge for the linguists to come out of their hiding holes….

            Aren’t there any French people here? 🙂

            See you all soon.

          2. Useful idea LC. Can you not debate it here? How do you see a separate page in the menu assisting beyond what is here, do you perhaps think it would draw other readers who might be interested in offering translation services? I am interested in your observations.

          3. HG,

            Well, this might look a bit far-fetched… maybe worth keeping in mind though, for later.

            IMHO, depending on the number of translators willing to assist in this endeavor, you might need something like this (already a bit discussed about that Harry Potter translation):
            – A forum-like area for translation-related debates. I don’t think a simple WP additional page is sufficient. Following threads on this WP “thing” is horrendous for more than a few tens of comments.
            – A separate system for versioning and reviewing. All documents should be kept there, each line of an article’s translation can be discussed, changed, rolled back to previous version if needed.

            There might be free tools out there for this. I am not aware of any for translations, but there might be.
            For programming, there are already established providers for this kind of stuff, you don’t even need to install anything, for example: gitlab.com
            Your articles and books are mostly text, without much formatting. So they might be manageable even in a plain text editor (like that provided by Gitlab).

            If there’s only a bunch of people translating, then it’s maybe not worth setting up such complex beast.
            However, centralizing and versioning of your books and articles is definitely worth having, and I strongly suggest you implement something if not already having it. This way, you’ll always have the latest and best version available in a single place. When you fix an issue (spelling, formatting), you know it’s forever, it won’t creep back in your reposts. And so on. There are many advantages.

          4. Desirée:

            This is fun. I will do some homework on some of those words. Your suggestions for gaslight are good.

            ‘Gaslicht’ for the actual translation of gaslight but I lack the grammar knowledge of making it into a gerund. –ing.

            to gaslight: zu gaslicht

            But then the actual ‘gaslighting’ not sure what could be added to create that.

            Gasleuchten might involve more poesy, or involve more words implying more depth–light, to shine, light up. So that might be the better choice anyway.

            It is these subtle nuances that make translation and language fun.

          5. LC and Bibi,

            I like all your suggestions regarding Silent Treatment and Gaslighting. My feeling with “Anschweigen” would be that it gives more options, since you have vartiations such es “sie schweigt mich an”, “angeschwiegen werden” etc. and it highlights how this is done deliberately to get a reaction, as opposed to someone simply sitting in silence.

            The German Title of the movie is indeed “Gaslicht” and would then be adapted to “Gasleuchten”, although using Gehirnwäsche (brainwashing) could be a better alternative. It illustrates how far the victims loss of reality can go due to this manipulation. A friend of mine told me once “Es war, als wollte er mir eine Gehirnwäsche verpassen” when describing her ex-boyfriend gaslighting her, so it appears to be an accurate description of how it is perceived by the victim. But it could be too broad a term for the specific manipulation technique.

            What about the Hoover, then? I kind of like “Der Sog” as it is more distinct than “Staubsaugen” and the household chores connotation seems less helpful in German than it does in English. Der Sog hints at the imminent danger whilst still offering the usage of words such as “einsaugen”. It is a bit poetic and farther away translation wise, but could blend very well with HGs vocabulary and overall writing style.

          6. HG

            “Useful idea LC. Can you not debate it here? How do you see a separate page in the menu assisting beyond what is here, do you perhaps think it would draw other readers who might be interested in offering translation services? I am interested in your observations.”

            We could debate it here but you would perhaps lose out on an important effect.

            In Germany readers are trying to locate translations of your work which is evident by the search prompts Google throws at you if you’re located in Germany. Having a German debating site integrated in the menu bar is an invitation to participate, at the same time it invites readers to come back an check how far things are, and it signals to “adaptors” of your work that you’re onto them.

            It would also help us discuss. Ideally we need a thread for each term. Things get awfully lost otherwise. WP is not the ideal platform for this kind of work.

            Blog posts could be centred around one term – figuring it out similar to a character in the BLL show.

            This kind of project would draw translators, too, yes, but especially new German readers.

            People who aren’t very fluent in English are reluctant to post here. In a German subsection where they can discuss how they understand the terminology they would feel encouraged to participate even if they didn’t feel confident about their English.

            I’m pretty confident that I’m right about this because I work with non native speakers of English who are good enough and feel they are not a lot of the time.

            We’re dealing with a brand of people who often thinks they’re not good enough as you so well explain HG.

          7. Fair observations LC, I am giving this active consideration which you will see from a blog post which is about to appear.

          8. LC,
            with regards to setting up a debate page in order to discuss translations, I am pretty sure WordPress does not allow you to do that as it would be more similar to setting up a forum.
            It might also start to get a little cherry-picky, because everyone might only want to talk about a view terms, and leave the most difficult ones out anyway (seriously, what the hell is one to do with Proximate Fuel? Unmittelbarer Treibstoff? Yeah, didn’t think so either.)

          9. Localization is important beyond translation (or google translate would be perfect). There are services and programs that localize as well and this may be helpful for he international versions of HG’s posts and publications.

    2. LC

      It sounds a very good idea to me, i am more willing to do that, then have to commit to full translation, which it is a big huge job …

      I am Italian, and very familiar with English, not only, i love writing and searching for words .. it is fascinating !!! My favourite book is the Thesaurus… truly… 😂 😊

      1. Mary

        If HG is on for the idea I’d also be happy to contribute (into German) but we’d need somebody computer savvy who could set up a system that assigns willing translators to articles and in a second step articles to (proof) readers: a secure place where documents (the translated pieces) can be uploaded and are then emailed to the readers, these then need a way of saying “good to go” or “needs revision”.

        Such software exists commercially – publishing houses work with that kind of system when they have readers peer review articles. There has to be one person (an editor) monitoring the process but that of course could be taken in turn.

        The HP fan community had nerds who created such a system privately and it worked incredibly well! They had (and we’d need) a discussion board to discuss terminology and tricky passages as well – terminology can’t be all over the place ..

        In the HP forum they had debates as to which was the best term, they argued about it, and at the end they polled the best version, that was then chosen and needed to be used by all translators.

        It was an admirable effort.

        I can imagine that there are loads of people here who would love to contribute. And that such a project might even draw more readers!

        I’ve noticed that in Germany there are people who let themselves be “inspired” by HGs work – it would be better if people read the translated original.

        1. I am looking at having the work translated into German as there is a need for this and also to outflank those who you politely call “inspired” LC, although we both know they are stealing my work.

          1. Debra Sutton referred to “fuel” on Quora. I took a second look after I read that word. That’s an exclusive HG word!! Everyone else uses “supply”. Apparently she’s written books as a survivor of a father diagnosed with NPD. I was googling How can a narcissist be empty inside. I ended up reading your article about it that was there. Debra didn’t even mention you.

          2. Thank you for letting me know. I don’t have an issue with the use of one word, such a fuel. You are correct that I am the first to use it with regard to what allows the narcissist to function and what we need but I am content for others to use it for the purposes of aiding understanding and to get rid of the awful ´supply´or even worse ´narcissistic supply´. I also know a certain other narcissist has used my term which amused me.

          3. Dearest HG: You are so right. Supply is so strange, and it did have its day, and it did put a foot in the door, but FUEL knocked the door down, that blocked understanding of this need, and is so appropriate, and everyone understands that fues makes something work, and without fuel something will not work. Priceless. It is a wonderful term to embrace while studying the practically unfathomable. The growth of your lexicon is evidence in itself of its value and appropriateness and applicability. Plus, I like how the word sounds when you say it. I need Fuel, Baby! FUEL: Bravo!

          4. That’s excellent news HG. Yes, there’s a huge need in Germany. Sites and video channels are mushrooming and they also have the narcy feel of botoxed chick in a car feeling sorry for herself if you get my gist.

            I don’t have the time to translate large chunks but if there’s anything I can do to help, discuss terminology or tricky passages or anything I’d be more than happy to help.

          5. I understand your point. It is interesting with regard to platforms which address narcissism. Information comes my way about other providers from my readers and as far as I am aware there are just two admitted narcissists who operate platforms, me and Mr Vaknin and we acknowledge what we are. There are some wannabe types who claim to be Greaters (or the equivalent in their parlance) but they are not, they are Mid Rangers who do not know what they are. There are also a lot of Mid Rangers operating platforms who think they are empaths and they are not. Some of these providers are misleading and dangerous. There are then a number of genuine empath victims, genuine empath therapists (some who are victims also) but they are not as many as you would think. At least me and Mr Vaknin are clear about what we are so you know what to expect – you use other places at your peril and I know from the legion of emails I receive from readers (plus some comments here) that many people have had bad experiences at certain places. Empaths who refer to my work either state
            1. It is interesting but not for them as they find it hard to digest and thus they do not remain ,
            2. They cannot condone what I am but understand that people find the work extremely helpful, but they do not wish to engage, or
            3. It is interesting and really helpful but not for everybody and they give due warning in that regard.
            These viewpoints are fair and based on actual evidence. The work is brilliant but can be hard for some people to deal with given its nature and who I am.
            Where you see somebody commenting gratuitously adversely then this is based on envy and a failure to actually read into the work and use the site and we all know who those individuals are. It is entertaining because nobody forces these people to read my work or interact with me, but their level of obsession in terms of trying to engage with me, provoke me and comment about me speaks volumes.

          6. I’m still irritated by the passive aggressive shit on behalf of “ my association with appreciation of your work.” When someone puts themselves “out there” as a “professional” there is an almost collegial (that term is a stretch) expectation of an impartial view/tolerance of what someone says is helping them. You are not even “outing” the people you could on here! Just a bitch session..

          7. Indeed. I have reams of material to hand where I could expose a raft of individuals, should I deem it necessary to do so. The vast majority of people realise it´s very simple – you play ball with me, I will play ball with you, a handful have been very foolish.

          8. Can you make me more effective so when people try to play ball with me I can whack them in the head with my racket?

          9. Haha—I can then self promote and improve my non-sociopath “credentials!”

          10. Also—as I’ve stated.. I don’t “love” everyone that comes to me asking for my help, yet I always operate with parity in mind because it’s the right thing to do. That woman can fuck off.

          11. Achtung, baby!

            The extent of my German.

            And “oh scheisse”

            And how will you translate the word tickety boo…? 🙂

          12. U2 eh?

            I have been waiting to see how the erudite translators deal with Tickety Boo, I suspect there may be a loanword situation there.

    3. LC: And Russia. If they still call themselves Russian. I can not keep up with all the world changes. They went through a lot in the past 1/2 century. They definitely have Narcissists over there and Empaths. I am sure the Empaths over there are in `trouble deep,` as Madonna would sing, They all need help!

  14. I was really curious how “fuel” would get translated to Italian. Seems “carburante” was chosen.

    Still I think it does not have the same feeling as “fuel”.
    “Carburante” is much longer and complex, as a word. And sounds more mundane, somehow…

    I guess better than “combustibile” though…
    Not many choices, unfortunately.

    1. Abe Moline

      True. I am Italian and i have been living in England a long time…certain words cannot be translated which convey the same exact meaning..

      I was face to face interpreting Italian/ English in hospitals here

      Sometimes we have to find a total new word or even a combination of words in translating, in order to give a better perception.

      I will think about ” Fuel’ ..

      At the top of my head it could be something related to: Nutrimento egotistico.

      What do you think ?

      1. Well, I don’t think so…
        HG is for brevity and clarity, as far as I know. Also power, so I guess powerful words matter.

        “Nutrimento egotistico” does not sound like matching these criteria.

        1. Abe Moline

          Yes … i know..
          pero’ “carburante” in my opinion doesn’t sounds good… if we could find a single Italian word associated con ‘egotistico nutrimento “…
          I will search..
          I have been busy all day face painting kids, is my job, here in England it is very requested.

          1. Painting kids’ faces sounds super fun, Mary! Knowing me, I would make them look like Ru Paul hahaha.

          1. Omg Fool me—I’m talking to a VIP and we are looking at something on my phone and up pops the notification “Fool me likes your blah blah on the sex thread whatever!!” I couldn’t swipe it away fast enough. Lord.

          2. Lorelei,
            Hahaha! You shouldn’t be on your phone at work. 🤣🤣🤣

          3. FM1T,

            No, I’m not. I understand and can speak a little of Italian though.

    2. I think “combustibile” would work better and would be similar to how they translated it in the Spanish version, “combustible.”

      1. In effect the two words, “carburante”
        and “combustibile” have the same meaning: it doesn’t change anything in that regard. The word “carburante” is merely a choice of mine because it sounds better to me, but no problems for replacing it.

        1. Stella SU, it was just a suggestion to keep coherence with the Spanish one since in Italian and Spanish both words are synonyms. You are doing a wonderful job anyway. Thanks for the translations, I know translating can be fun but it’s a lot of work. Now, for the books! 😉

          1. SP Thank you for appreciating my work of translation, and even for your suggestion – well appreciated. I know I did a lot of work, but I’ve never felt exhausted, not at all. Indeed, HG’s work saved me after my narcissist’s discard and smearing, helped me to mantain no contact and to forget him definitively. I’ve already noticed a while back that there weren’t any books translated in Italian, and since then I expressed to myself the desire to translate the books. In the meanwhile I translated all the content of the blog: articles, letters, memes and even some audio articles from YouTube. All this work provided me with a lot of knowledge, and I want more and more. I look forward to start this new and more challenging work. 😉

          2. Bellissimo lavoro, SSU, complimenti! Yes, HG has saved all of us here. I’m under NC too.

        2. Hi Stella

          In my opinion “combustibile” do not certainly give the meaning of fuel, as s i’ve already said, because for us Italians it only means “infiammabile” (inflammable)

          Therefore, it does not have the same meaning of “fuel” .. which in HG contest means something more .. like some nourishment for sustaining of the ego..

          Right HG ?

          When i am less busy i will yry to find a better word.

      2. SP

        I don’t think ” combustibile” its appropriated….
        It only mean ” inflammable'” in Italian.. but fuel it gives in my opinion a sense of nourishment for the narcissist .. which he/she needs to have..

        Isn’t so HG ??

        I will try ro search for a better word for fuel in Italian ..
        I am quite busy at the moment…

        1. Cara Mary, I understand what you mean but I do believe either combustibile or carburante are very close to the meaning of fuel and would be understood in the same way, notice that the English “fuel” doesn’t really explain much about what that fuel is. One thing that professional translation does (you will agree with me if you have worked in the world of translation as you said in a previous comment) is definitely not specify or explain more than the original itself; the translator translates, but his/her job is not to explain beyond the original. I think Stella did a good job and I don’t want to go change it now after it is already done. Btw: my narc defined our entanglement as combustible and I said the same thing you did: that means it is inflammatory and meant to be extinguished at some point. He replied: no, this fuel is meant to last. Funny.

          1. SP

            I agree that Stella is dping a great job… and is not easy to always convey exactely the same meaning..

            However ” fuel” it is a more a rounded word than combustibile
            But i understand that if it is used in Spanish then HG might want to keep it that way…

            Hahahahaha…. “The combustible entanglement”

            And all went up in flames.
            The End.

          2. From what I understood reading these articles, fuel is an element that serves to the narcissist to mantain his/her construct in place and also something that empowers him/her, so “carburante” or “combustibile” in my opinion are the most appropriate words. Infact the word carburante is something that is used mostly in the tank of the car to make it function

    3. Hi Abe, I’m the person who translated these articles. I chose “Carburante” and not “Nutrimento Edonistico” because I thought that a simple language, with words of daily use would be more appreciated by Italian readers and this would enhance the best comprehension of the theme.

      1. Sorry, I made a mistake in reading and writing the Italian word mentionned by Mary. I should have written “Nutrimento egotistico” in my comment above

          1. I didn ‘t know the meaning but I’ve just searched it on Italian dictionary. It means the desire to reach the maximum satisfaction of one’s needs with the mynimum sacrifice, so you’re right, it suits to HG as well and maybe even more!

          2. Bah, who cares about that? You’re my fellow dirty Empath and I like you with or without Latin. 😘

        1. SSU,

          It was Mary who suggested that.
          I just said that somehow I feel “carburante” does not convey the same meaning and with the same “sounding” as “fuel”.
          I am aware though there aren’t many other choices, unfortunately…

          It was not my intention to start a controversy, and even much less to suggest that your work is less important because of this.
          Italian is not my language, but I understand that any translation which helps more people know about HG’s work is beneficial.

          It certainly meant a lot of time and effort to translate all this material.
          I actually want to congratulate you for doing it!

      2. Stella

        I understand why you have to use carburante, there is not much choice…but i am intrigued now..i will search and squeeze my brain..
        I am sure you must have already done that.. 😂

        But…Wow… someone else thought on the line of nourishment…
        I guess its because, i am repeating, fuel it is an important ego sustainer for the narcissist.

        1. Etymology of ‘Fuel’ seems to say:

          “Middle English: from Old French fouaille, based on Latin focus ‘hearth’ (in late Latin ‘fire’).”
          “Cognate with Spanish fuego (“fire”).”

          So the word fuel seems related to fire, and so is carburante. Something flammable.

          I don’t know Italian, just had a feeling that carburante is a good translation of fuel, when I saw the discussion in this thread. That is why I googled Fuel etymology.

          1. Fuel is flammable but its application here is to power something.

            Fuel (petrol, diesel or electricity) fuels the car.
            Fuel (gas, electricity, coal, wood) fuels the fire which heats the car.
            Fuel (food) fuels a person.
            Fuel (the emotional response of an appliance) fuels the narcissist.

    4. Now I want to answer to a comment of HG but I don’t understand how to do..in that comment he talks about Tickety boo. I Translated thst article. The italian title is “va tutto bene o non fa cosi schifo”. I found that as a platitude on the dictionary. Then i read from the various comments that there are many psychatrists that recommend not to follow HG. Unfortunately, I also met several of these. I think they are narcissists as well, or at least they have no desire to help the victims but only to have the spotlight upon themselves