The Final Discard : Except It´s Not
“He told me he never wanted to see me again so long as he was alive. That is it. This time it really is over.”
“She told me I was useless, pathetic, that she hated me and she would call the police if I came near her again. I don’t understand what is going on, but all I know that is the absolute end.”
“He made it clear that there is no future for us, that he cannot stand the sight of me and that he wants me packed and gone by morning. This is it. It really is it, this time.”
“She has taken everything and left me a letter explaining that she cannot do it any more, that she needs to find herself, whatever that means and there is no future for us together. I knew this was coming, I could tell, I have been given the final discard.”
The final discard. The curtain of conclusion. The guillotine of totality.
It really is over.
So often victims of our kind distinguish between being discarded and then there is (await dramatic music) the FINAL discard. There is being kicked to one side by us but the prospect of being hoovered back in and then there is the final discard whereby you have been removed from your association with us and it is the end of the entanglement and there will be no more engagement between you and I.
Victims often consider declaring that this time is the final discard and they do this for two reasons, which, interestingly are conflicting.
The first reason is that they desperately hope that it is not the final discard at all and that when they explain to whoever is listening to them recount the minute my minute dynamic of this final discard, that the person will tell them that it is not. The victim is hoping that the listener will provide some cogent reason, some piece of evidence which will explain that it cannot be the final discard and thus fulfil that which blazes at the heart of all empathic individuals; hope.
The victim does not want the entanglement to end. He or she cannot bear the pain. They do not want this to be their exile, their abandonment or their expulsion. They want to remain with us but fear that this time it really is the end and they are crying out for somebody to tell them that it is not, just so they can cling to a hope.
The second reason is because the victim does indeed hope that it is over so they are freed from our monstrous clutches. They want that to be the end. The victim, either at the time or sometime after this final discard, having gained some knowledge and understanding, ascertains that what they did caused significant wounding (although often they are wrong about that) and that this wounding was to such a degree that it sent us packing with our tail between our legs, skulking away, broken, humiliated and shame pouring from us, so that we will never, ever dare risk returning to you. The victim concludes that what they did has sent us packing and we will not darken their doorstep or inbox again. It is an understandable conclusion to reach.
There is no such thing as a final discard.
There is no such thing as a discard.
There is only ever dis-engagement.
This is because in our minds you belong to us and the Narcissistic Relationship lasts until you die or we die. That is only when finality applies to our connection. You are our property. You are our fuelling appliance. You are good and then you are bad. You are of use and then you are of no use. And then you are of use again.
We have invested time and energy in you. We want to reap the benefits time and time again.
If you are our primary source, we will dis-engage with you. We paint you black and do not want anything more to do with you at that time. It may appear as if we have ‘discarded’ you, but it is merely the termination of the Formal Relationship. You are not our girlfriend, partner, wife any longer. The Narcissistic Relationship persists. We do not draw fuel from you, we do not take your character traits, we do not take your residual benefits. You are deleted as we enter a golden period with a new primary source.
If you are an intimate secondary source, we will dis-engage with you. You are placed on the shelf, back in the cupboard, ready for the next time we want to engage with you. You are not deleted. You are just not required. For now. There is no discard. You usually are not devalued. If you are, then you have offended us and there will be a dis-engagement and a termination of the Formal Relationship of booty call, friend with benefits, shag partner.
If you are a non-intimate secondary source, we dis-engage with you. You are placed on the shelf again until the next time we wish to engage with you. Most NISSs do not notice this happen because they regard it as a natural lull in between meeting up, speaking and so forth. Again, it is rare for the NISS to be devalued, but if you are, then you have offended us and the Formal Relationship is terminated. You are no longer our friend.
If you are a tertiary source be it intimate or non-intimate, you will be put to one side as we dis-engage. There is no Formal Relationship to terminate. We may return to you or we may not. It depends on our fuel needs.
Thus, you need to understand that there is only ever a dis-engagement. The Narcissistic Relationship persists. If there is no devaluation, we consider the Formal Relationship to remain in place – thus you remain our booty call, our friend – but we have no need to call on you at the present time. If there is devaluation, then the Formal Relationship is over – you are no longer our wife, you are not our boyfriend, you are not the friend or friend with benefits and we dis-engage.
It is usually us who decide on this dis-engagement. Whether there is devaluation and dis-engagement or just dis-engagement, it is invariably us that makes this decision. If you reject us then it is an escape and of course we will endeavour to hold on to you.
What though of the situation where you have actually wounded us considerably, either as we dis-engaged or more likely, when you make your escape? Surely that brings about finality? That must mean we do not want to engage with you any longer because you have mortally wounded us and as a consequence if you did this as we dis-engaged with you, then we will never return yes? If you did it as part of the escape you implemented, then is it not correct to state that we will not hoover you?
No.
As mentioned many times, there is always a risk that we will come back and hoover you. There needs to be a Hoover Trigger activated by you entering a sphere of influence. Thereafter, the Hoover Execution Criteria has to be achieved. This includes various matters to balance, some increasing the risk of meeting the criteria, others diminishing that risk.
This includes
- the type of narcissist you are dealing with
- how your fuel was regarded
- whether you provided character traits
- whether you provided residual benefits
- whether you are with somebody new
- whether you have recovered from a position of being broken or not
- how easy it is to contact you
- how easy it is to make physical contact with you
- whether we know you have been lamenting our dis-engagement
- whether you have been angry about our dis-engagement
- whether there are outstanding issues – money, property etc
- whether there are obstacles
- whether there is a risk of wounding
Thus you can see the savage wounding you may have inflicted on the last occasion we interacted is but a consideration in the criteria. Yes, it may well be an important consideration when viewed against the other criteria but it will not itself amount to a final discard.
No matter how damning we were about you, how we may well have used words such as “never”, “do not”, “forever” or “always”, we are pragmatists. It is the practical need of fuel which governs all that we do. Contradiction and hypocrisy do not concern us. We can perform a 180 degree turn, a volte face or a complete turnaround and it matters not. Those were yesterday’s words.
We do not discard.
We will always come back IF the Hoover Trigger is activated and the Hoover Execution Criteria are met.
There is no final discard.
And that is my final word on the matter.
58 thoughts on “The Final Discard : Except It´s Not”
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Wao interesting insight into Narcissism as a student of Psychology and someone who have been discarded by my Narc who I absolutely adore. He is 21 years my senior 56 (aging in his own words but very handsome to me) a specialist doctor and I am a uni student 35- (pleasant on the eye as per the opinion of men who have fancied me and my narc who have said that I am the biggest age gap he has had and the most beautiful out of them all).
I have been insulted by the narc but I have kept quiet which the narc has appreciated and been surprised about at times.
I have gone through each and every phase of narcissistic relationship from being love bombed to discarded where he went on holidays and cut contact with me to minimal. Then he told me that he was not in love with me but did care about me. Started demanding space. I accepted and wished him all the best. He then messaged me to tell me that he wants me to know that he cares about me. I then requested him to perhaps give the relationship more time instead of just finishing and after agreeing, he started devaluing from the next day saying that he needs space and will revert back to me when he can. Then 16 days ago I called him out on how he was commenting under girls photos on twitter at which point he first made excuses, then gaslighted me, said that he can flirt with whoever he wants and that he has not given me the right to question him and the conversation ended with him asking for space. I then messaged him after a few days apologising to which he replied that he has no ill feelings against me and has forgiven me and that he needs space. Since then I have messaged him numerous times but he is not replying.
HG Tudor, in your opinion, is this the final discard?
No such thing as a final discard. If you require input with regard to your specific circumstances you should organise an audio consultation with me.
HG… I’ve read your books now than once and thank you for all the knowledge you’ve given me. I have been dealing with my narc for a very long time. Known him for 30 years, since I was 16 and he was 24. After losing my marriage in my 20s due to my narc insisting we’d be together and live happily ever after, only to return to his then wife after my divorce was final, i moved on for many years and healed. I am 46 and he is 54 (and aging was not on his side. He is not the “attractive” man he used to be but i love him just the same). Three years ago he decided he finally wanted a relationship with me and after pursuing me and convincing me I was the one he always loved, I finally caved and let my guard down. Three years later, I’m destroyed. A mess. And I can’t explain any of it. I’ve been exposed to three horrifying rage incidents, including almost being thrown from the car last weekend. Im shocked at what I’ve been through. Im attractive, educated, have a great job, and two amazing sons who are grown. My narc has literally broken me. I didn’t even do anything to ignite his fury this time. I kept quiet as he screamed and yelled over something totally ridiculous. We had just had an amazing night together and were going to spend the rest of the day together and he snapped over me mentioning a girl on his Facebook. The rage that ignited after was the worst I’ve been exposed to. I’ve been reading your books all week. He has been blocked and I informed him I was seeing someone new. He has threatened to come to my job and pass out information to my Co workers about me and is now smearing me publicly on Facebook. I’m so confused because I never wanted any of this to happen. I loved him and wanted a life with him. Im not sure why he’s trying to destroy me this way. Do you think this is finally the end so I can move on?? My anxiety is unreal waiting for him to show up or do something really awful. You’re the best resource I’ve had on this subject yet. It sometimes feels as if I’m reading books He wrote. The physical violence that has progressed is something im scared the most about. I have 3 police reports and almost pressed charges last year but was too scared. I work for the government and deal with domestic relations and abuse victims all the time. Yet, I can’t seem to get myself out of this horrible black hole I’ve fallen into. I changed my number over a month ago and went no contact but he showed up at the house and it started all over and that’s why i left with him last weekend. I never expected his rage again. Now he has my new number and I’m back to square one. It’s it finally over?? Can I reset assured he’s moved on to someone new??? I’m lost confused and broken. Thank you for all your help.
Hello Angela. It is clear you are in a difficult position. I am unsure how it started all over again as he showed up at the house, presumably you breached no contact and let him into the house? If you had not done so, no contact would have been preserved. I am not clear what you mean by “it started all over”, perhaps you mean him raging at you? If he cannot get to you, he cannot rage at you and presumably he was able to rage at you because you opened the door to him or otherwise enabled him to speak to you. How does he have your new number? Did you give it to him? You cannot be assured that he has moved on to somebody new, however, there are steps that you can take to make this more likely. I recommend that you organise a consultation with me as a priority so I can understand more about your situation and assist you with putting in place a proper no contact regime and maintaining it. Consult with me and you will alleviate how you feel.
Yes, I agree with that. I commented to HG that the narcs in my life have often appeared far ‘stupider’ than they should be, given their education levels and job status. Perhaps this is due to lack of curiosity about the world, inability to learn about life as they already know it all, and an inability to read people and social cues? Or maybe they just were really thick?
Hello Kelly,
I think intelligence of a person cannot be judged by their education level and job status. I met few people in my life who didn’t have a university degree but were very curious, mentally stimulating and knowledgable. And there are people with phd and good career but know nothing or have a little knowledge in other things that are not related to their job or degree. There is also huge difference between wisdom and intelligence. One might be intelligent but not wise at all.
“a narcissist always returns”. i think hope-or fear- comes from this “always”.
there is always a risk( til death do us part) but hoover may not happen at all. am i wrong?
not asking in emotional way. i’m just not sure about “always”. there is a lot of narc type-fuel type-empath combination. Isn’t there an example that he/she never returned?
i asked before about the relation between culturel differencies and fuel.
for examle; my ex has been together with his ipps for 14 years. as far as i know there was no dis-engagement with her during this time. because social and familial pressures are very effective on some of his behaviors. he can’t afford a divorce. he has to spend his time with his family.
new ipps should be rich and her fuel quality should be higher than before in this case. of course he can’t find it easily so he never wants to lose her. but he can find new ipss(s)/dls(s) -thanks to dating sites- so i think it’s easier to find the new than to return to disengage one.
of course narc is a narc, a hoover is a hoover, fuel is fuel. i know the risks. i know nc is a requirement.that’s not the point. but I will not be surprised if I do not hear from him again as a dirtyverylittlesecret
A hoover may not happen, correct, but there is always a risk and more usually they do. What one cannot say that so long as you or the narcissist lives, that there will be no hoover.
Thanks for lighting the way once again HG
ps: we can’t order Kindle edition of your books from here. it’s hard to live in “country of absence” haha. one of my friends is in Sweden now, for business. she found your books in Bokus, she will bring Fuel one in this September. i am so happy
Email me and I can help you obtain kindle versions of any of my books. That goes for any readers who experience difficulties in obtaining them.
Yes, discarding someone forever would be a stupid idea. What for? Narcissist’s life is a total roller coaster, days full of fuel and days with no fuel. In the hard times everyone will do.
You might want to check out the Sharpe family or Gerald Baden-Clay family killings in Oz. Perhaps HG could do a post on one of these. They all follow similar patterns.
Gab- mine mentioned to me before holidays were hard, and he didn’t like them. But I think that was mainly the time that the consequences of all of his crappy behaviors and devaluing caught up to him and stared him in the face. Didn’t stop him from going right back to the same crappy behaviors when the moment passed, though (he’s a lesser).
But I had thoughts like that too, like why be such an a** to people? I don’t recall him being like this when we were younger, but he has substance abuse now too. The way he behaves, you’d think he was raised by the wolves :/.
Interesting. Thanks to your knowledge I have my Hoover bar so high hell I can barely get over it! IT (narc) is a Mid Ranger which equates to coward and minus physically coming to my home there is no way to contact me! Thank you for that!!!
You are welcome DID.
I never told anyone about the shit the narc pulled, golden periods, devaluations or discards, because I knew anyone in their right mind would tell me what I already knew… I should run. But I didn’t want to. I wanted to be a stupid empath and ride out the devals and enjoy the goldens. Smh
Dear Mr Tudor,
The weasel’s ex partner (mother of his golden child) just got married to her long term partner
How would the narcissist be feeling right now in that scenario ?
With kind thanks
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
If he knows about it, he will be wounded, Bubbles.
Dear Mr Tudor,
He knows about it …. guaranteed
Your answer just put a smile on my face and Mr Bubbles … haha
Thank you
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
My relative will get married in winter. I might see the Peter Pan “who lost his memory” in the wedding. He travels quite often. If he is not gonna be abroad on the wedding day, he will be definitely there.
I still didn’t finish reading your book HG: revenge, how to beat the narcissist. Most probably I will finish it during the weekend.
I have all the spheres of influence open, I have not blocked him from any place, I discard myself by another younger main intimate source, I discovered all his dirty businesses and warn the women of his new married lovers 2 in particular, I gave him where it hurt most and I put it in evidence in front of their secondary sources, I aspire after 7 months to leave me and I fell into the trap like a fool, to leave me again 3 days later I shit, she does have me blocked from everything and I hate her It can be cut in the environment, from this 3 years ago. Is it a definitive discard or will the head appear one day? Thank you Mr. Tudor.
There is no such thing as a final discard, as the article explains.
HG, would you not regard the murders of Shanann Watts and her children as a ‘final discard’? Or is it possible that Chris still keeping pictures of the family he murdered in his cell and reading them bedtime stories is some sort of bizarre Hoover?
No, that was the consequence of his ignition of fury which exerted control over them in the moment but as ever with Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists their exertion of control in the moment will usually succeed but it has a collateral consequence, in this instance murder.
Yet it appeared he planned the murder in advance, e.g. he arranged with colleagues several days earlier to make sure they kept away from the oil tanks? I’m also curious, HG. Can you manage any empathy for Shanann and the children, or does it leave you cold (no pun intended)?
I have no emotional empathy as stated.
Wow! So you could theoretically watch a child be murdered in this way and still feel nothing? By extension, you could perform the act yourself and feel nothing, like CW? And all narcs are then at least capable of murder? Intuitively, and ironically, I feel you should have some sympathy for CW, then, at least.
See “Why The Narcissist Wants You Dead”.
I have no issue with regard to children. I rarely engage with them.
Kelly—HG is not the “type”
of narcissist that would have an eruption of fury so as to kill a child. It’s beneath him as it is for most narcissists—it’s abhorrent and disgusting behavior but they simply don’t “feel it” but recognize it is repulsive. I have empathy erosion by mass shootings for instance but recognize they are awful—I don’t think it’s much different in some ways. There are times the questions here are natural to ask because of curiosity so I understand.
I don’t feel bad about asking HG these questions. He’s honest with us, I figure he can handle the same back? I’m not sure there is a narcissist ‘type’ that doesn’t kill. That is our ET. HG has described himself the cognitive reasons why some narcs may not physically kill. They might push you to suicide though, or drive drunk with your kid in the car. Or they’ll just kill you emotionally and pschologically. Ironically, if you listen to HGs interviews, you will see that he himself has actually killed someone.
I’m seeing very similar elements of narc-exes in CW & co. The most frightening are lack of empathy and remorse. Take those two away from a person and you’re in dangerous territory. It’s quite chiiling!
Don’t feel bad—was not my intent at all. Just re-stating what has been conveyed. Empaths can kill. There are many sitting in prisons because they were fed up. If someone breaks into my house/I am threatened and have a gun—same thing. The threshold for each person is variable. Same with narcissists.
I hear you, but the motive is so different. Narcs don’t kill for self-defence, it’s an offensive. They are predators. And in the CW case, killing his unsuspecting wife and 2 helpless, little girls was not a defence mechanism. That’s why I -we- ask HG these questions. Narcs don’t operate according to ‘human rules’ or ways of thinking. They are not like us, and if we project our own traits and feelings onto them, we can end up in serious trouble. Hence the need for GOSO.
It was a defence mechanism Kelly, to the threat to the control which manifests differently to a threat to your person which is where (from your perspective) regard a justifiable basis for self-defence.
I hear where you’re coming from, HG. I think we have different perspectives on responsibility and accountability in NPD behaviour. We could label it ‘perspective’ and leave it at that, if it wasn’t so serious a matter. Of course, assuming no moral absolutes assumes an absolute in itself. Btw, I am also the offspring of a Matrinarc. I understand, I’ve been there, lived it. They can be long gone, yet still rule from the grave. I won’t let her!
Fair comment.
We do appreciate you, HG! And I buy your books, lol. It’s a strange and interesting dynamic we have with you, as readers and regular ‘customers’. We might also understand what it means to grow up in an English family. That has it’s own ‘rules’ and ways of being. For example, mickey taking and depreciation are built into the fabric of the humour. Not that it’s always that funny, in hindsight. Being told my dad would ‘pull my arm off and hit me with the soggy end’ made for a good day!😅
Thank you.
Ever taciturn, HG!😄
It’s not offense if HG’s house is broken into or mine. You are incorrect. Predatory behavior is not the same as murder. There is a parallel but it’s far from a catch-all concept.
Kelly, I saw a recent documentary that was done on the Chris Watts case. He was giving an interview from jail now that he has been sentenced. I don’t know if you’ve seen it or not. Everything HG wrote in his article came together in crystal clear detail when I watched that. He didn’t kill the little girls until he was at the oil field. I didn’t know this previously. He murdered at least one of the girls with her own blanket. It is heartbreaking, but good education if you can stomach it. I realized during that program that he killed them because they were an extension of their mother. It didn’t seem that he differentiated them from her. They were treacherous because their mother was. At least that is the way it seemed to me. I never understood until then why he had to kill them too. Yes, almost understandable if it was in blind fury at the house. But to drive them out there and kill them there? What an abomination.
He had 45 mind to watch them in his rear view mirror before he coldly murdered them one after another. How can that be blind rage?
That’s what I mean, Kelly. I could understand killing them all in a blind rage all at once. Him waiting until he got to the oil field was IMO him seeing them as an extension of their mother. I’d like to have HGs thoughts on the killing of the girls.
MB—that piece did seem kinda odd didn’t it? The delay—like one would think he’d have settled down driving to the site where he killed them. Thoughts steeped in a need for control perhaps kept the fire burning? They need to just execute him in my opinion but no one asked me. He’s worthless.
I believe Shanann’s parents requested he not be given the death sentence. They wanted to extend grace towards him.
I’d just toss him into a city dump and make sure a ton of wild dogs were hungry and in the vicinity. He’s nothing but a useless lesser—maybe I sound mean but so be it.
I agree with you. He has got far better than he deserved! Many have requested that those photos he keeps of Shanann and the girls be removed from his cell. He says he still reads a bedtime story to the girls every night and that he’s ‘still a dad’. Creepy!
Lord he does that??
Yep. He released a letter about a month ago stating it was all his mistress’ fault. Quite a turnaround as he originally protected her quite fiercely.
He is dumb enough to believe this. That’s the crazy thing!
Lorelei
You only sound mean in the sense of the poor dogs having to eat that shit.
I love you NA!
Lorelei and Kelly, it is very difficult for me to accept that he has zero remorse. Zero emotion when he speaks of murdering those precious girls. Yet the same lifeblood flows through him as it does me and you.
I think the girls were a reminder/an extension of their treacherous mother and killing them was a way to punish her. His fury maybe reigniting at the tank site when he thought of them being allowed to live when their mother had committed such a heinous act of trying to leave him.
I think good people like us struggle with the existence of evil. Not only is there evidence – upon which CW was convicted, that the murders were pre-planned but the children were killed quite methodically and coldly. The oldest, Bella, 5 yrs, witnessed him kill the youngest. When dad returned, she asked him if he was going to do to her what he did to Cece. He said he didn’t want to say ‘yes’ because he didn’t want her to think he ‘s as a bad person or something.’ He then calmly smothered her. He broke the bodies of both girls in order to stuff them into the oil tanks. No remorse, no out of control rage. Just evil. His concern from jail is always that the public see him as a nice guy. No concern for his dead family.
MB, see also the Baden-Clay killings, Australia. Similar – and disturbing. As the dad was killing his little girl (he had already killed mom), he ran out of spears to shoot her in the head when the first two didn’t kill her. So he pulled one out of her head and cleaned it, while she was crying, before putting in back in his gun and pulling the trigger again. Btw, both men had new supply locked down and waiting on the side. Remorse my ass!
MB & Kelly—he’s a really good example of what the emotional vacancy truly
looks like that is associated with NPD. He’s not smart enough to cover up the truth with a decent facade.
Sorry to bother you but are you able to see my comment? My phone updated and I believe it has messed it up. Thank you!
No, I didn’t get your comment. Can you resend?
Thank you for responding- sorry but I was basically checking my phone to ensure it was working. Sorry to bother but greatly appreciated! Hated the thought of not being able to post on this site.