Calculation and the Narcissist

CALCULATION AND THE NARCISSIST

I often read comments along the lines of

“I am ensnared by a narcissist and he knows exactly what he is doing, he is calculating it all and is determined to destroy me.”

I have no doubt that such belief is honestly held, but it is usually incorrectly held.

Why is that?

  1. It is only Greater Narcissists that are aware and operate in a calculated manner. Greater Narcissists are very rare indeed and therefore as a matter of statistics, if you have been ensnared by a narcissist, it is highly likely to be a Lesser or Mid-Range Narcissist.
  2. Mid Range Narcissists can appear to operate in a calculated manner owing to higher cognitive function. This is called “Instinctive Planning” which I will explain further in relation to this subject.
  3. The effect of emotional thinking. Yes, as you know emotional thinking obscures the use of logic and it does this repeatedly and in thousands of different ways. One of those ways is to cause you to think that the narcissist has planned and is operating in a calculated fashion because this will cause you to obsess more over what the narcissist is doing, talk more about what the narcissist is doing, try harder to contact the narcissist in order to halt this supposed calculated campaign against you and of course what are you doing if you do one or more of those things? You are engaging and feeding your inherent addiction to the narcissist. Accordingly, your emotional thinking absolutely wants you doing it and will make you ignore logic and honestly believe the narcissist is acting in a calculated fashion.
  4. The projection of your world view. Obviously you look at the world from your standpoint and because of this you think that anybody who engages in such behaviours as the ones you are experiencing must have planned them, because if you acted this way, you would know what you are doing and you would have planned them. This entirely understandable viewpoint of yours means that you cannot help but regard the behaviour as pre-meditated and calculated. You, as an empath victim do not manipulate through instinct. You have no need to do so, you are not designed that way and in fact if you ever (in the unusual event) try to manipulate somebody you tend to fail at it because you are just not made to do it and you are not practised at behaving that way. We on the other hand are designed to manipulate and for those who are not as evolved as the Greater Narcissist it is done through instinct. You impose your worldview on our behaviour, that is not high-handed of you at all, but it is incorrect.

Thus, these factors result in you erroneously reaching the conclusion that the narcissist is operating through calculation towards you.

How then do narcissists operate and what is their state of knowledge. Firstly, you ought to read these articles (or revisit them)

Do Narcissists Know What They Are Doing? The Lesser

Do Narcissists Know What They Are Doing? The Mid Ranger

Secondly, let me provide you with an example to increase your understanding.

We must have control at all times over environments and that means the people within those environments and of course that includes you. The Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists do not realise this is what they require, this is known at an unconscious level. The Greater knows that control is needed and also has vastly superior abilities to achieve that.

The narcissist has turned up at the victim´s house to effect a direct physical hoover. The victims does not live any longer with the narcissist and there is an ongoing divorce process between the two.

He knocks at the door but the victim does not answer the door. The victim maintains no contact by not opening the door to tell the narcissist to reason with him to leave her alone. The victim does not shout through the letter box telling the narcissist to “Foxtrot Oscar”, the victim does not gesticulate through the window for the narcissist to go away or open the window and pour water down on the waiting narcissist. No matter how tempting those responses might be, the victim must not execute them because that is engagement which means

  1. Fuel Provision
  2. Potential adverse consequence , and
  3. Heightened Emotional Thinking

aka The Devil’s Pitchfork : The Three Bad Outcomes of Engaging With A Narcissist

Previously the Victim would engage through pleading, shouting and even threatening. All of which is Challenge Fuel and only encouraged the narcissist to keep asserting control and indeed lowered the Hoover Bar to prompt further hoovers.

Accordingly, the victim´s failure to respond amounts to wounding. The victim is the Former IPPS and therefore is at the top of the fuel hierarchy. This failure to respond is “in person” and therefore the result of this is massive wounding for the narcissist.

This massive wounding means that fury is ignited. This is part of there narcissist´s self defence mechanism and occurs because it is a visceral, emotional fury which is necessary to MAKE the narcissist do something to end the wounding, heal the wound and gain control. It has to be explosive to cause an immediate response.

The Lesser Narcissist

The Lesser has a low control threshold on the ignited fury. He operates through instinct only.

His narcissism, were it a voice would be stating :-

“We do not have control. Assert immediate control. Our range of options are limited as this is a Lesser. Utilise Verbal Insult and Property Damage.”

The Lesser does not operate a facade. He has no control. He absolutely needs control and he needs it now.

The narcissist, unaware of what his narcissism is “thinking” responds immediately with Verbal Insult as a form of manipulations, albeit crude and rudimentary.

He shouts

“You had better open this fucking door now, you bitch or I will kick it down and I will come in there and teach you to ignore me. Open this fucking door now!!”

The Victim holds no contact. The wounding is continuing because the narcissist remains at the Victim´s door but he is being ignored. His fuel level is depleting rapidly, he is being wounded and he is not getting fuel.

The narcissist switches instinctively to Property Damage and picks up a large rock from the garden and hurls it through a window smashing it.

The Victim holds no contact but reaches for the phone to call the police.

The narcissist is still being wounded because there has been no response to the smashing of the window. He picks up another rock and hurls another one through the window. The Victim still does not respond.

At this point the narcissism, were it a voice would be stating

“Situation critical. Repeated massive wounding. Target failing to respond. Control not established. Immediate need to end wounding and establish control. Withdraw.”

Throwing a few choice comments the narcissist leaves before the police arrive. His retreat means he halts the wounding because he removes himself from the source of the wounding. He now asserts control through ending the engagement. He will be forced to go and gain fuel so he heads to a different appliance and engages with them to obtain fuel to address the reduction in his fuel level. He does not think

“Damn, I did not gain control there and I was being wounded, so I need to go and gain fuel elsewhere.” (This is what is occurring at an unconscious level)

Instead he consciously thinks “What a cow ignoring me like that.” He heads off to the bar to tell his Coterie about her latest ignorant behaviour and their disapproval of her conduct and approval of his conduct “That showed the bitch you will not be messed with” provide him with fuel to address the wounding suffered and replenish his lowered fuel levels.

Meanwhile the Victim, affected by the four points details above sits awaiting the police and thinks to herself.

“He knew what he was doing. He purposefully came around to intimidate and smash my windows. He always used to smash things up when we were together, he knows exactly how to terrify me and does it on purpose.”

Her Emotional Thinking hijacks her fear and uses it against her.

Her worldview causes her to view the behaviour as deliberate and calculated, but as the worked example above shows, it is not.

She believes this part of an ongoing campaign of harassment which has been deliberately thought out against her – the narcissist keeps calling around because there have been Hoover Triggers and the Hoover Execution Criteria have always been met (primarily because the narcissist does not live far from the Victim, he drives past her house on the way to work and previously she has always given fuel to the narcissist when he comes banging on the door.) This belief causes her to think this is a Greater who is orchestrating a malice campaign against her. It is not, it is actually a series of Malign Follow-Up Hoovers because she is painted black (there is an ongoing divorce process) and there are repeated FUHs for the reasons explained.

Thus the Victim believes that this is calculated behaviour, albeit somewhat crude in its nature and either thinks that this is a Lesser Narcissist who plots and plans or that because he evidently plots and plans this is a Greater Narcissist who is especially unpleasant violent. Her conclusions whilst understandable are incorrect.

He is a Lesser Narcissist. There is an unconscious awareness which is the way the narcissism operates and if it had a voice it would state the points I have explained above. However, it does not and the Lesser Narcissist does not know why he does as he does or he has an alternative explanation for his actions (again obscured by the narcissism and the nature of its self defence) . He does not act in a calculated fashion.

The Victim is misled through a lack of understanding, fear, emotional thinking and worldview into believing this is calculated and pre-meditated behaviour.

The Lesser Narcissist can give the impression of knowing what he is and what he is doing and that it is calculated, but for the reasons explained above, he does not know and it is not calculated.

Next will be the Mid Range Narcissist.

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222 Comments

  1. Hi HG and site users,

    I’m hoping to get some help.

    I’m a bit confused by my narc ex fiance’s recent behavior. We dated just under a decade and broke up in 2016. Off and on we’ve talked with him declaring his undying love everytime but getting uncontrollably angry about me not being ok with his choices post breakup. Recently I told him I didn’t want him back and couldn’t abide some of his life choices. He attempted to discard me but I wouldn’t be silenced and kept texting him my unfiltered thoughts. I suddenly started receiving messages from new supply I didn’t know existed who was telling me how happy they were and to stop contacting him. She seemed to think that I had been contacting him to no avail since we broke up. It was actually him who’d been pursuing me since the break years ago. Before I could tell new supply that, he changed his cell phone number. I had planned to change my number, but since he changed his can’t reasonably expect that he won’t be contacting me ever again?

    TLDR: ex fiance narc triangulated me and new supply (who I had no idea existed – if it really was another woman texting me and not him) through texts, after I called him out via texts and threatened to expose him. Before I could expose him, I was beginning with his venemous new supply, who doesn’t know he was pursuing me, and not the other way around, he changed his phone number. I had planned to change my number, but I’m wondering if it’s necessary now. Can I count on him never contacting me again?

      1. Thank you for the quick response, HG. I may need to make use of that if anything further happens.

    1. Hi Melanie
      Change your number. You can never count on them not contacting again. They believe they own you until either you or he dies and there are many here that will attest to being hoovered years later. Remember that their thought process is different to ours so the logic you are currently using (about why you think he will not contact) does not not apply to him. Use the search bar to find articles on Hoovers and No Contact for example, and consult with HG for detailed information regarding your specific situation.

      1. Thank you, NarcAngel. I know you’re right. It’s not going to be fun doing it, but it’s necessary. It occurred to me that I’m even more vulnerable to his whims now because he can contact me whenever and I cannot contact him to even request that he stop. Plus new supply, if she even really exists (as I only received texts that could’ve been from him) may have both my email and phone number now.

  2. Very good, HG. I am looking forward to the Mid-Ranger one too, but I can also relate to this, having been IPPS to a Lesser (Alexissmith2016, you don’t want to go there, trust me).

    As you say, the behavior is instinctual. You also point out in one of your responses to the comments that instinct does not mean no responsibility (for instance, the law would find the narc responsible and punish the behavior). It reminds me of what it is like to parent a toddler – parents teach a child how to behave properly and a sense of responsibility when the behavior gets out of hand. A normal child will learn to act appropriately without succumbing to instincts (need for fuel, attention).

    What you describe here is scary because it concerns a grown man. But if we pretend that you are describing the way a poorly parented child might act, it gives us insight into how to respond by not responding. For instance, when my kid would ‘act out’ as a toddler, I wouldn’t engage with him until he behaved properly. Since what he really wanted was attention, which he would get when the poor behavior stopped, it worked. It seems what you are advocating is something similar. Look at the inappropriate BEHAVIOR rather than the (to us) opaque motives. Don’t move towards the behavior (instinctual or not). Ignore it or move away from it. I am not saying that the situations are the same at all, just that it gave me some insight into how a Lesser thinks by comparing him to a toddler. I could go into detail about the toddler-like behaviors my exL engaged in but I don’t want to waste my breath.

  3. Thank you, good examples to illustrate the mindset.

    Do ppl who ask your advice ever mention having a physical response to the presence of a greater? I’ve known two (that I am aware of), and got dizzy spells around both of them. At work, or in public, not even necessarily one-on-one. It is weird to describe, but I get clumsy, trip, lose my balance, etc. And it is more pronounced the closer they are.

    Not sure if it’s an aura-thing, intuition, or just a bad vibe. If I sit down, it stops.

    Do others describe anything similar?

    1. Re. the floor is open
      Must be a trap door, or is it not?
      I don’t remember having had any such physical reactions to Greaters but their carefully crafted type of charisma can have a “pull” on people that is unique to Greaters.
      I was friends with a Lower Greater Somatic and she embraced her bad girl person to such an extend, you wondered why people kept wanting to associate with her. They always did. Someone even tried to call her out by telling her “you’re just a f*ucking narcissist, aren’t you!?” in front of a group of friends. She looked him dead in the eyes, went “I guess I kind of am, aren’t I?” and proceeded to sip her beer. Everyone laughed, nobody took him seriously, he was later disengaged from and spent the rest of his dignity on being on the outside, trying to get back in. I doubt she had full knowledge about her condition, but would often brag to me about how dumb people are and how she can do whatever she want’s with them, they will just keep crawling back to her. The fact that she was comfortable telling me this straight to my face speaks for itself.
      The only two physical sensations I can think about are this aforementioned “pull”, as well as an elusive sense of imminent danger. That was the first thing I felt upon meeting the Upper Greater, but he was just a well-liked business man in a nice suit, charming, engaging and eloquent. Nothing to see here, right? Yet I still remember my first instinct was to run and hide in the Ladies Room until he left the event, I’ve never felt more uncomfortable. He proceeded to engage in polite conversation with a friend of mine and since he did not seem to share my impulse, I stayed and eventually “got over it”, finding that Greater to be as fascinating and fun to talk to as everyone else did. Greaters are Empath Catnip.

      1. Desiree: Hahaha: ` Greaters are Empath Catnip.` Desiree! NOW you tell me what is really going on in here. The Truth finally stands up and brushes itself off, and rips off the camoflauge. My goodness. lol. Well, what goes on in Narciste stays in Narcsite along with all the other viewers from the over 15 million hits, I guess. My goodness.

    2. It’s like butterflies when it’s a good vibe with a good, normal person, but it’s different when your intuition knows you’re in the presence of a person who isn’t good for you.

      1. Kelly D, I mistook the signs for those butterflies. They were different though. My narc and I were sitting on two different seats across each other, discussing our feelings -well, I was discussing my feelings for him and he was mirroring me I guess-. I couldn’t stop shaking and feeling a knot in my stomach. He gave me a class of wine and I couldn’t hold my drink because my hand was shaking. He offered me a sweater, but I wasn’t cold. I didn’t know back then, but now I know: I was scared. Like a mouse in front of a snake.

        1. SP, I was petrified of MRN and told him so at the end. It is their coldness – how do we communicate with someone who does not use part of their brain?

          1. Mine was lacking something and I couldn’t tell what. I remember he stared at me as I talked and I asked: why do you stare at me? And he said: I’m just wondering if we are gonna kiss today. But then when we were going to, he just waited to see what I did, and followed mechanically. He didn’t act in a passionate manner. He didn’t seem to feel anything. It was so cold like you say, and I didn’t have a sense of what he was feeling inside like I normally do when I’m making out with someone. I don’t know how to explain it, it was like kissing an empty box. With a six pack! Ha. The same thing happened the day he had is premature little incident. I didn’t even notice he was coming. No emotions. When he told me, I said I’m disbelief “no you didn’t.” Then I looked and he was right. It was so weird.

          2. SP, Weirder than mine for sure. MRN was quite normal about sex. It was everything else that ended up giving me the creeps. Once I saw it, I couldn’t unsee it, which is how I managed to resist. An empty box is right though. I used to say MRN’s brain was like a flat paper bag rather than an inflated balloon.

      2. KellyD. Do you think there are 2 feelings when one encounters one? A. One feeling is to be afraid of them? B. And the other feeling is to be afraid of oneself? A. Afraid of what they may want to do with you versus B. afraid of what you may want to do with them? Anyway, Choice B is only is a fantasy. They always want to be in control.

    3. Set Witchery,

      I often get physical sensations and reactions to people, things I see in person or in TV/movies, and physical sensations always accompany my own intense emotions.

      I can’t say I get physical reactions to Greater Narcissists as I only just learned about them, so I am not sure I have ever met one. I don’t know why I was getting physical reactions from certain people.

      Mr. HG Tudor stirs some intense emotions in me which are accompanied at times with physical sensations. I am sure I would get a fairly intense physical reaction if I ever did smell him when he smells so good. Yum. Am I alone in this?

      1. The sensations I experienced were more hypnotic/entranced/hyperfocused, along with loss of balance, dizziness. Not unpleasant, but confusing and disorienting.

    4. We have a couple at the nursing home I work at. Mostly lessers or MR but we have one who I suspect is a G.
      He gave me one of the “wait, what did he say?!” backhanded digs once. I get the same feeling in my gut as when my narcs give a malign dig- but he was so subtle . He eyes me – watches me . I see it in my peripheral- and he is intelligent.
      luckily he doesn’t need much care.
      With the other ones, I just pawn them off to another worker or team up bc they behave when there’s two of us and only one of them lol

  4. Today was a good a good day in court against my Upper Lesser, who I used to think was a Greater. Finding out what you are up against is prevelant.

    1. Anm
      I’m glad to read that you had successful day in court. The winning days will continue to add up on your side with your new knowledge.

      1. NarcAngel,
        It was epic. Both him and his attorney are Upper Lessers and obnoxious. We have been litigating for 6 months on a motion that I filed in February, and then he of course did a counter motion to avoid accountability and to throw mud. The Upper Lesser was asking me to pay thousands of dollars to him, and to pay his attorney fees. I hired a very very good attorney to represent me for the hearing. One hearing alone cost me a couple of thousand dollars. But I had to lose my attorney for the remainder of litigation, because it turned into a 6month ordeal. I had to represent myself. At the last hearing, yesterday, the narcissist’s true colors came out.

        My ex’s attorney under estemimated me. She knew she was hired just to discredit and smear me. They never have solutions to problems, they just show up with more problems and accusations. At our last hearing, they wanted to use 8 police reports as evidence against me. It was all just nonsense of my using third parties to get in on his tactics. I contested and had their evidence throw out based on late submissions and hearsay (not actually having the officers present). The attorney was pissed. This shut them down quick. I went ahead, and said I wouldnt use my own evidence. I then moved in with a very specific order that I asked the judge to order. It was very detailed, a win win for everyone, and hopefully leaves no wiggle room for the narcissist. The judge was so impressed with how I calculated everything, and how I came up with the resources to not rely on the narcissist for the court order. The judge ultimately gave me everything I wanted, didn’t want to hear the narcissist accuse me of being a bad mom, and didn’t make me do anything the narcissist wanted me to do. THANK GOD.

    2. Anm, congrats!! I just found out mine is an UL too. I never thought he was a Greater though, although the possibility scared me. It really is very eye opening to know what you are dealing with, that’s why I told HG it would be extremely beneficial to translate the narc detector test and be able to show victims what they need to be looking for, as I myself kept reading info about the MRN and was completely wrong.

      1. Sweetest perfection,
        My daughters father does have money, he was very athletic, has the houses and cars, the beautiful women, and what I thought was an extensive fuel matrix.
        It is just a facade. Even after winning my hearing yesterday. He is throwing a fit, “you can’t make me!!!” like a child or Lesser would. It’s a give away.

        1. Anm, I can’t tell what my narc is because he has a public persona. He is relatively successful, and physically he could be a greater somatic. But like yours, he behaves like a child. It’s not easy to categorize them, that’s why we need HG’s expert advice.

      2. That is interesting, SP, because I have also been operating under the assumption that mine is a mid-ranger. He so fits HG’s description, that I cannot imagine him as anything else. Maybe I am wrong but since I was also involved with a Lesser, and he also fits HG’s description to a T, I don’t think I am far off about either one. I’d have to do narc detector to be sure, though.

  5. Wow! This really clears things up for me. For so long I thought my narc deliberately set out to hurt me. Knowing now that most of it was just an instinctive reaction to his perceived criticism makes me feel a little better. At least every awful thing wasn’t done intentionally.

  6. Your explanation of different views is very accurate, HG. I feel so much more relieved after the consultation today. Thank you so much for your insightful information. Your impersonation of my upper lesser was extremely on point too, haha. You nailed it. I am really glad I finally decided to talk to you.

    1. Good. I’m pleased you found it useful, everybody who consults with me finds doing so of tremendous benefit and highly informative.

        1. SweetP
          I hate to add to his hat size but he really is the best isn’t he? Professional, humorous, informative, insightful, considerate, ACCURATE AF……….

          No one should hesitate. There’s nothing to lose but the questions that haunt you.

      1. Right? To be honest with you I was more worried about having to talk for an hour. I had even prepared possible topics to fill the silent gaps: DM favorite albums, favorite wines, do you like cats… it went by very quickly though and it was extremely helpful.

        1. Content to discuss the first two topics, cats are only good for throwing out of windows to watch them land on their feet and walk away as if to say “fuck you”.

          1. Re: Cats are only good for throwing out of windows to watch them land on their paws and walk away as if to say “fuck you”
            When I was younger, my cat would hurl herself off the 3rd floor balcony repeatedly and walk away unscathed. My mother had left the balcony door open and I would be wide awake at 2am to go find my cat while my mother ran her mouth about “have that cat take care of herself for once, you can still get her in the morning”. My cat made deliberate escape attempts to get away from the matrinarc long before I did and for that, I applaud her.

          2. Oh I love cats , don’t want to end up the stereotype cat lady though
            I loved these mystical graceful creatures since I was a tiny child
            Cats are quite narcissistic also and in my opinion are smarter than dogs but not as goofy and fun . I own a pedigree Burmilla cat and Westie terrier.
            There is a saying “There are only two things aesthetically perfect the clock and the cat”

            Kiki

          3. Funny you should say that, HG, as my second conversation with MRN was a story about a cat falling out of a window. He laughed and that was the hook. I’ll bet narcs prefer dogs – obsequious.

          4. SMH, I prefer dogs myself. I like cats too, but my dog would eat my cats.

          5. SP, you are not a narc and are allowed to prefer either one or both! I prefer cats myself – I find them pretty hilarious. plus easier to take care of. Also probably because Matrinarc is allergic to them :).

          6. I like all animals. I saw something about a little animal yesterday that ruined my day. I felt terribly depressed and sorry, I’m really sensitive to animal abuse. And to negative news. Let’s say some days I’m too sensitive to life in general and it will be shorter.

          7. How come HG… does their cold nature remind you too much of yourself ? 😉

          8. My narc hated cats too! We would always joke around about it. But he liked dogs… quite a lot and was affectionate with them. Do narcs find it easier to be affectionate with dogs as they are good appliances? Listen to commands, sit around and worship them with thier tongues hanging out …. I wonder. I’ve read a few things about narcs connecting with dogs lol.

          9. HG
            Yet if someone charged that you couldn’t lick your bottom you’d produce a trophy confirming you as champion.

          10. No, I would tell them they are a degenerate and suggest they scrub themselves with a wire brush and a lot of bleach.

  7. To add… my natural instincts kept me engaging with the narcissits. But this does not make it any excuse to keep putting up with the abuse and put myself in bad situation. I am responsible for my behaviour as is the narcissist.

    1. Indeed you are and it was your emotional thinking that caused you to engage. The difference is, when you reduce your ET you can see that, the narcissist cannot see any basis for accountability.

  8. This topic I find interesting. As I have interacted with a handful of people in my life who are narcissits. And I can actually tell who among them is aware and who is not..: 2 were aware, 1 of those was the man I dated. There is a long list of reasons of how I could tell but that may bore everyone.

    I am concerned how much validity we give to things being “instinctual” though… I am not necessarily arguing the point as I have witnessed ones who clearly operated out of instinct. However… are we taking the responsibility of their own behaviour away by saying “it’s instinct” because that I don’t agree with. When someone physically harms, rapes, engages in phedophila, murders… they are responsible for those actions. Disordered or not. I can’t condone giving those people excuses. Luckily… our legal system (although not perfect) would agree with me, that actions have consequences regardless of ones nature.

      1. Perhaps. My concern is more saying “oh it is their instinct to do so” is taking away the responsibility of the behaviours…

        1. It is acting as an excuse for the behaviour, therefore taking away responsibility from the individual to control said behaviours.

          1. Indeed but instinct and responsibility are separate concepts.

            I operate through calculation to avoid responsibility.
            Lesser and Mid Range operate through instinct to avoid responsibility.

        2. Your concern is understood.
          It is instinct. That is a fact, it is not something else when it comes to Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists.
          You cannot say it is not instinct, it is.
          One can state it is instinct and this is designed to avoid accountability/responsibility but the victim must not allow themselves to be led by ET into thinking that responsibility should be put to one side. However trying to say that it is not instinct in order to make the narcissist accountable is incorrect, the narcissist remains accountable from your perspective and in a majority reality situation the legal framework will ascribe responsibility to the narcissist.

          1. When you say ascribe responsibility you mean to say that the legal system will make the narcissist accountable for their actions? (That is of course- when the proceedings are not corrupt)

            I understand what you are saying but I think it is dangerous thinking. If I tell myself “he abused me out of instinct it’s is not his fault” then I am
            Talking myself into going back to someone who harms me. And becauSe I am an empath… I can/will do that. Reducing our emotional thinking is just as difficult for us as accepting accountability is for
            Your kind.

            The narcissit IS accountable for thier actions. Whether they see it or not is not
            The point. We operate within a society… and within that society we have laws.

          2. I am not saying it is not his fault Empath007.

            The narcissist operates instinctively. This is done to reject accountability. The Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists do not operate consciously. Of course society looks to make the narcissist accountability, as I explained previously , this is because it operates on the majority perspective.

          3. HG—I know your time to answer questions is limited—yet I’m curious what you mean by suggesting that since you are calculated you therefore avoid responsibility. I’m a bit lost—I can even ask in consult but I ask here first because someone else may have the same curiosity. I’m questioning if what you essentially mean is that because you are calculated you escape any culpability by means of executing behavior that cannot bite you in the ass—legally for instance. So, the “victim” knows but what you get over on them is not landing you in a pot of hot water. You can wash your hands of it—move along unscathed for instance.

          4. Correct. Also my narcissism maintains that I am not culpable and I take calculated action to assert that state of affairs.

          5. Majority perspective… are you trying to imply we should live in a world without laws?

            Just because a narcissist does not want the rules to apply to THEM. Does not mean the way we operate as a society is entirely flawed (although arguably most systems are flawed… because of narcissits lol)

            Anyways. We will not reach an agreement because we see the world entirely different.

            I just wanted to point all this out so that when victims read about the instinctual responses they do not use that as an excuse to go back
            To the narcissist. Or as a way to excuse the behaviour and take the responsibility away from the narc.

            Thanks for
            Your time HG.

          6. No. You misunderstand. There is no such thing as an objective reality. There is a majority perspective that has one form of reality, a moral foundation arises from that and then a legal framework arises from that.

            We are not part of that majority perspective. Just because it is the majority perspective does not mean it is “right” objectively, it is subjectively right for that majority.

          7. There’s no real. There are “realities.” We all have ours. You helped me think of the different realities of the view of each school and it was magnificent.

          8. empath007

            Think of totalitarian regimes: they can develop anytime when a large enough number of people is ensnared by a charismatic leader who then exerts control, aided by those who are ensnared. The harmful narcissistic perspective then becomes the majority perspective also as part of the legal system. No matter whether you yourself believe that such a system is wrong. For you there will be only exile to a country that has another majority perspective. If you’re lucky.

            If I understand you correctly you think it’s dangerous in a way to say that lesser and midrange narcissists operate on instinct rather by calculation because it presents their behaviour as less harmful. You are arguing (I think) that the concept of instinct shifts the blame for their actions onto something they cannot control, and if we believe they cannot control their actions they connot be held accountable for them by empathic standards.

            I see it the other way around.

            Instinct is something that is very dangerous and should not be regarded by compassionate people as something that diminishes accountability!

            To say “oh the poor soul didn’t know what s*he was doing therefore what s*he did is not as bad as doing it if s*he had known what s*he was doing” is a statement reigned by ET.

            LT is to get a sense of how aware the narcissist is of his or her narcissism to gauge quite how much mayhem they are capable of inflicting to yourself or someone who is ensnared and whom you care about.

            LT is to realise that there are a lot more narcissists around than we normally realise because we confuse narcissism with calculated narcissistic behaviour and discount instinct as an incredibly dangerous force. As non-narcissists we discount instinct because we are able (in various degrees) to control our instincts, and compassion is part of our instinctive behaviour.

            LT is the ability to empathise with a narcissist by understanding the circumstances that made him or her operate according to the laws of narcissism, while not having to fall prey to their worldview or having to become ensnared.

            If we are entangled in a narcissistic relationship we invariably collude in their world view or perspective as we become a pawn in their bid for fuel. Using instinct as an EXCUSE for their behaviour would mean to collude in that worldview still.

            To show the difference between instinctive and calculated behaviour is an EXPLANATION, not an excuse – but evidently you can use explanations to excuse behaviours – or you can use them to protect yourself with heightened understanding.

            If I get HGs mission right it is the latter that he’s promoting.

          9. Wolves operate by instinct.
            We don’t fuck with wolves.

            I don’t see that’s there’s any blame to distribute.
            Narcs destroy. It’s what they DO. It’s their nature. So just don’t fuck with them and all is well

      1. Haha! If I gave away the whole list that would give away a lot of personal details I do not want to share on the internet. I’d rather consult with HG confidentially.

        To give a few expamles though… he was an eloquent writer. Much like HG he poured a lot of thought and detail into his messages. So much so that the messages would take him hours to construct. I could see the little bubbles on the phone going for HOURS. Then I would receive this carefully crafted message that usually showed up as an attachment. The love bombing eas intense and specifically designed for me. He was no dullard like Christian Grey lol. He spoke poetically.

        He only operates with IPSSs. HG long ago told me that could mean two things that there is a veiled IPPS (which there is not as he has been “single” for 6 years now – And no IPPS also we work together and have the same
        Friends so I would know if he did) the other is… that he’s a greater.

        He had no fury that rose to the surace.

        Every action he made was planned out… including the placement of things in his house, and how long they stayed there. Thier purpose etc.

        He was careful and thoughtful about every move he made.

        When I would suggest something I was mad about he would always “tweak” his behaviour as to please me in order to give the impression he cared about what I said.

        Charm was his go to attribute. When HG describes in articles how the greater handled things he always fits that list.

        He had malicious intent. As one of my punishments he tried to get me fired from my job.

        Lastly when I confronted him about being a sociopath… his face washed with this look of “you figured it out” and he admitted it to me. Said he had studied the subject and that he met the criteria and that’s he had known for some time.

        He was also fasinated by murderer and would even tell me some
        Of his “movie ideas” for how certian murderer would play out:

        There is more detail but that would require much more personal detail. Whatever he is (as it is self assessed) he acted with motive and intent. And I’m just glad he’s out of my life.

        1. Empath007, yes you’re better off far from that guy, how scary! Next to him, my narc is just a vain Somatic with ADD!

        2. It’s a trip when they know.
          In my drinking days, before Narcsite, I was at a local bar and of course everyone is talking to everyone. Me and some young thing were outside smoking and I (drunk and uninhibited) said “…my sociopathic friend”
          And he said “hey! How do you know that?!”
          I just said- instinctually, and something like “just try not to hurt anyone”
          He replied “but I have to. I WANT to.”
          He was so jazzed , I think he thought I was one too. Wanted my number and tried to FB friend me. I never responded in fact I blocked. Like UM NO.
          Maybe he was , maybe he wasn’t.
          But once I was sober I was like yeah I don’t think so buddy. Like I need THAT.
          I still wonder if he was one or just a wannabe but he was drunk and I think being honest. EESH

          I didn’t realize that about the greater not needing an IPPS that had an occurred to me to watch for. Interesting .

          1. I think the not having an IPPS is strange for narcs or at least not the the norm no matter what school. But he had intimate partners… he just compartmentalized us from one another. I would imagine he may use the same women for long periods of time. But he was extremly odd at best.

  9. Now, the question is, how can we use this information to our benefit?

    There’s definitely a reduction of anxiety, because now we should be aware that the N does not just stay there all day plotting new ways to get revenge or to hurt us.

    It’s also much clearer that not interacting with them will force them to retreat and seek fuel elsewhere, and this conduit will most probably also result in least damage incurred to our property and sanity (since they’ll quit faster).

    On the downside, there’s also an increase of uncertainty though, since instinct sounds a bit more chaotic than expecting some logical vengeful reaction from the N.

    Any other ways we could use this to our advantage?

    1. Good points until the point re uncertainty AM, that was a manifestation of ET. till, 2 out 3 ain´t bad, as someone once sang.

    2. Maybe it’s just me, but I would feel better knowing it is all planned, not instinctive. Because “instinctive” means that their anger is instinctive but also their seduction. It means that if they are nice to you, they do really feel the need to be nice to you. When they seduce you, they “feel in love”.

      I know HG is right anf if he says it is instinctive, it is. But I am telling myself that my mid ranger is a cynical liar who plan the seduction and discard. Who feels nothing and who wanted to manipulate and abuse me from the beginning. Maybe it’s not true. Maybe he felt in love. But only believeing it was all planned helps me to encrease logical thinking and keep NC.

      1. They feel love? Or do they simply instinctually procure fuel for themselves, by whatever means necessary?

      2. Read my comments above Bluewave! this is why I also get concerned about the instinctive nature. I don’t argue it exists as we all have instinctive nature but it is dangerous territory.

        Also, he is a cynical liar. That’s a fact. The beginning was love bombing… not love.

      3. Bluewave, the way I understand it is that when they were seducing you, they were genuinely infatuated with you and how you make them feel (how your fuel provision fills them up). And also how your assets will help their lives (residual benefits). It is instinctive for the Lessers and Mid Rangers. It is calculated for the Greaters. But none of them are capable of real unconditional love. My Victim Lesser mom told me that she targeted my dad when he was dining with his coworkers at the restaurant she was waitressing at because he had a Rolex watch and he looked like a really good guy. I asked her if she was ever in love with anyone. She told me that she doubts if love is really true because she has never experienced it. Then she added that she has always felt grateful to my dad for financially supporting us and for having been a complete gentleman to her when they were still together. So she concluded that maybe being grateful is already love. My MR half sister, whenever she started dating a new guy, she got excited about how wealthy he was and she kept asking me if I think that he is good looking because it seems very important to her that she is not dating someone that most people would think to be unattractive. She goes on about how smart the guy is and how crazy he is about her etc. but all is being told to me as if she was describing her new acquisition to me. Then she starts to do a lot of super sweet stuff for the guy but she does a tally in her mind and keeps score of her gestures were not reciprocated. When I fell in love with my husband, I can’t even describe the feeling. I just know that deep inside me I wanted to be there for him through thick and thin forever and I want to make his life better and I honestly didn’t care if my sister or anybody else thought that he was handsome or not. It wasn’t about impressing anyone for me, I just wanted to be with him. So just because it was instinctive for them, doesn’t mean that they were in love with you. And also, just keep in mind that even though it was instinctive for them during the seductive phase, doesn’t mean they will not make the rest of your life miserable because of all of their destructive and toxic behaviors that are also instinctive to them. So NC must be implemented to save yourself from more misery.

        1. I love the description of you and your husband ❤️ That’s really special. I have felt that way about a few men before but have never fully felt it back… so I think it’s wonderful when people can truly find their partner in life.

          1. Thank you empath007. It can happen to anyone as long as we are careful. I remember my mindset when I started dated my husband. I have previously been ensnared by two narcissists (at that time I wasn’t aware what they were). I didn’t get into formal relationships with them except for NISS but I was so upset at the dynamic that I wanted more for myself where I would be cherished and respected. I heard about the book ‘I Kissed Dating Goodbye’ and decided to follow that philosophy. I didn’t date anyone until I find someone with the character that I believe I will forever respect and admire. I was very lonely but I didn’t compromise. I met my husband where I was working and I immediately liked him from the first time I interacted with him. He was a widower and was 28 years my senior. The more I interacted with him the more I admired him as a person and wished that he was a part of my life. My narcissist sister called him up to tell him that I have a crush on him because she figured it out because I was talking about him all the time. He said that he also has a crush on me but he’s too old for me and was worried about our future. She convinced him to follow his heart and so he asked me out. The more I got to know him the more I realizes that he’s a really good person. He’s probably the most consistent person that I have ever had in my life. He was never flashy with anything but he is consistent and dependable. He’s not the ‘Romeo’ that I pictured my soul mate would be but he’s real and he deals with my imperfections with a sense of humor and love. I am so thankful that by meeting those narcs before him I was able to compare and contrast behaviors and find out how I want to be treated in a relationship and also what is real versus an illusion.

      4. I struggled with this too but what might also help you is to think that instincts are dangerous and not to be discounted when dealing with people. It might help you to think that you can trust your own instincts more because instincts are powerful.

        Many of us know instinctively that the narcissist is not good for us but we override that instinct. How? By using ET which is a warped kind of logic designed to override your instinct.

        Listening to our own instincts is incredibly helpful in developing an addiction to LT rather than ET 🙂

        And then what might also help: if the behaviour of your narcissist was calculated he would be a greater. And then your life would be a hell of a lot worse than it is.

        Instinct alone can cause only so much damage . But pair instinct with awareness and you can get psychological and emotional wreckage on a nuclear scale. Nuclear, global, all encompassing.

      5. Bluewave,

        Here are some questions you might want to ask yourself:
        1. How do I feel? Was I hurt or not? (see The Narcissist’s Wheel of Misery)
        2. If yes, does the existence of an excuse (instinct) change anything about the end result (me being hurt)?
        3. If it does not, then why do I have this idea that planning is preferable to instinct? Why does this make me feel “better”? Why do I care?

        We all have instinct. But we can also control our instinctive behavior. Just because we act out of instinct does not mean we are not responsible for what we’re doing.
        The difference, I think, is the existence of a conscience. Since narcs don’t have one, everything they do, instinct or not, is justifiable from their perspective.

        In my opinion, lack of conscience may be regarded as a sort of an excuse for them. Instinctive behavior – not.

        But, of course, in this case:
        4. Even if lack of conscience may be regarded as an excuse, do I want to have anything to do, to invest my time and feelings, in a person without conscience?

      6. Bluewave
        From my experience in addiction rehab….

        It’s a recognised part of having an addiction that the behavioural responses driven by that addiction, with time, become largely subconscious.
        They become instinctive when endless and focussed repetition creates denser neural pathways in our brains.
        In other words, the addictive behaviours take on a life of their own.
        Conscious choice becomes bypassed at some point.

        By way of example, when a person is trying to quit a long term smoking habit, they have to mindfully choose to not smoke, and disrupt triggers, change routines, and patterns that cause them to reflexively reach for a cigarette.
        I’ve known recovering smokers who’ve told me that they feel stressed about something, and then they suddenly realise at some point that they have a lit cigarette in their mouths, and they’ve smoked half of it already.
        How did this happen?
        They have no recollection of getting the cigarette out and lighting it; the addiction is so deeply ingrained that it takes on a life of its own.

        Knowing this is the first step in quitting, and putting new behaviours in place that will meet the need without the cigarettes, eg. if smoking is from stress or boredom.

        The narcissism is deeply ingrained as a defence mechanism, and the narcissistic behaviours are well practised over a long time. The neural pathways become like a deeply worn track or groove, laid down in the brain according to the reward/pleasure systems. As a result, the adult N moves through life largely on a foundation of instinct, with some conscious choice laid on top of that.
        The Lesser shows little insight. It takes an Act of God for them to see things from your perspective sometimes.
        The mid-ranger shows some insight but doesn’t care. They blame everyone else, and get pleasure from others’ suffering, as do Lessers.
        The Greater is always playing mind games. They are all driven by their massive sense of entitlement and their overblown ego.
        They are entirely self-absorbed.

        I hope that this gives you some clarity about N-addictive behaviours. I found it helps me to process things. Ns are addicts.

        1. Caroline R, “I’ve known recovering smokers who’ve told me that they feel stressed about something, and then they suddenly realise at some point that they have a lit cigarette in their mouths, and they’ve smoked half of it already.” Totally true. It’s the pattern. I used to smoke a lot in college and I kept the habit every time I had to write. In my head, the intellectual activity of thinking what to say and writing it down was subconsciously connected to the act of smoking. For other people, the trigger is having a drink or having a coffee. I quit cold turkey when I met my husband because he hates the smell of cigarettes. I didn’t have a hard time doing so, except that 15 years later, I still feel like smoking a cigarette when I write. The pattern of smoking while thinking and writing is still in my subconscious. But I haven’t acted on it and never will, quitting smoking is the best decision I made. The second was quitting my narc. Let’s hope that second addiction gets way under control too.

          1. That’s why you gotta burn all the bridges w total NC
            I’m in a small community so I occasionally come into my narcoholic’s line of sight but I just promptly go the other way and if he was higher functioning and set about malign Hoovers I’d move.
            Same w my MMR-DLS situation, is move if I had to, but he’s not interested in messing w my life and risking exposure of his infidelity .
            You can’t have cigs in the house if you want to quit- you don’t go to bars if you’re getting sober-and you don’t have contact w a narc if you want freedom from them

            SF I think you just have to take the F on this one.
            You may love him but he’s not yours. At the very least that is the start of acceptance. You’re still in denial I think – if u fantasize about him leaving the wife. Even if he did- he’d replace you with another DLS. Guaranteed.
            HG has confirmed he’s a narc- which means all these years has been a massive waste of your time UNLESS you grow from it.
            How many more years of your life do u want to spend in purgatory as DLS? 3? 5? 10? 25?
            It’s gonna suck worse the longer u go

            Ask yourself seriously “Is this the best I think I can do?”
            There’s no good answer lol but it’s the right question.
            What would you tell your daughter if it was her? Your best friend? Your mom?

            Identify the “addiction voice” that comes in . “Maybe I should call and explain” – that’s the addiction talking.
            “If I do this- he will think that” -addiction Voice.
            If you can identify the addiction talking , just dismiss it with “That’s the Addiction Voice” and banish the thought.
            Gets easier over time.

          2. SP
            Thank you for sharing your insights.

            Well done going cold turkey from smoking!
            I’m pleased that you did. Love really is the best motivator.
            Everyone who smokes long-term ends up with some emphysema (damage).
            Your experience of the triggers and the way your mind had tagged smoking with writing, and how long that association has lasted is interesting.
            I find human behaviour fascinating.

            I kicked a sugar addiction in 2014. I read that it’s pro-inflammatory, so thought that that was reason enough to stop.
            I weaned myself off gradually, and allowed my sense of taste time to adjust.
            My first step was to stop having sugar in my caffe lattes, and restraining myself from buying sweet things when I went grocery shopping. Especially in my way home from the gym.

            I recently had some Cadbury’s Breakaway chocolate biscuits on an empty stomach, and I started to sweat.
            Not good.
            I hadn’t had any milk chocolate for about 18 months.
            I suppose it was from the insulin spike and subsequent sugar crash.

            I still have an emotional craving at times for sweets and cake, and I recognise that it’s all tagged in my mind to birthday parties, socialising, having my Empath grandma visiting etc. Love and sugar from childhood. An instant but temporary mood elevator.

  10. I like the “voice” of the narcissism. It provides very clear context into what’s going on. Giving “narcissism” an identity on its own makes it easier to see past the clouding of emotions tied to the person. Looking forward to the MR version.

    1. Joanne: Yes. When one takes a breath from the painful catastrophe of the horrendous emotional hurt, it does help to know that a Survival Mechanism is at play that guides the Narcissist. I still wonder what will happen if I encounter the Narcissist in this city. The city is large at times, but also small at times. I have not seen him in about six months now. Will my heart be ripped almost out of my body. I know whom to call if I have a crisis episode.

        1. Joanne. Correct Joanne. GOSO implemented for around 5-6 months or so now. I no longer work around him. (He was not my boss). I did not really keep an accurate count of months or really verbalize overly much what I was doing, even to myself, because I believe I was subtly deceiving my ET to prevent a psychological crisis or backlash or some blowback against my logical self from my E.T. regarding removing myself from the presence of the Narcissist, but not, of course, his 4 malign Lieutenants that hoovered me. But it is done. I felt like I was performing a secret dangerous surgery on a part of myself. The surgery was successful. I am out. And, I definitely made the correct decision. I lost some entangled friends, because I had to drop them as well. I had to also change my gym location. It is all pretty much settled now. I basically kept telling them that I was ill and I just never returned. I read on here that Narcissists are somewhat repulsed by the illness of others, and I remembered that and so I chose that route to remove myself. I can feel that they smear me somewhat. Also, it is usually a good thing to be popular. And, I was very popular there, but now it is not good for me with them all, because people keep asking about me and he and his 4 Lieutenants have to keep answering, and I am sure it irritates them to no end. But, I can do nothing about that. Some people do care about other people and they have no idea that they make it worse for me when they ask him or his 4 lieutenants about my whereabouts. It is all so weird and odd. At end, I was `Outnumbered, but not Outgunned` as HG Tudor writes about in his book.

          1. PSE
            Great job! Way to GOSO. I remember when you were on leave, stressing about going back and his most recent ensnarement being your close friend and the stupid birthday video. I’m glad you were able to remove yourself from that situation. That is not easy, so well done!

          2. Joanne. I am really touched that you remember those details. Gosh! I never did that video. She was so determined! Yes, my friend made some aggressive hoovers, I asked HG about it and he said that it was probably an unconscious desire on her part to impress the N. by bringing him info. etc, as she replaced me at that time, and I just basically told her that being sick is too boring to talk about, but thanks for inquiring. A month or so later, she sent one more hoover, saying I made her look bad by not coming back when I said I would. However, I never made her a spokes person for me, though. It is not easy pleasing a Narcissist, she will find out. She expected all glory days??? I told her it was not intentional, but I had illness setbacks. My goodness. I think she was more a Lieutenant for the N. by then and also the new NIPSS instead of me. She replied we could meet off site away from the job. I told her when I was better. It was like talking in a chess game. She had an edge to her voice. So unfriendly. I had to let her go, Joanne. She sounded like a different person. Harsh. She never knew that I was infatuated with the Narc. She seems to have become Turncoat Lieutenant, HG calls them, for the Narcissist, but it was not intentional originally on her part, when I asked HG about her again, but he did say she seems to have turned into a Turncoat Lieutenant. And that sort of Lieutenant is the worst and dangerous, Joann, because they know more of your personal side and likes and dislikes and beliefs to spill to the Narcissist. So, I had to let her go. The job of NIPSS at work is all hers. I do hope it works out for her, but she sounds edgier now. Already. He is a big sulk, although that side of him never really bothered me. Now she probably knows that he has more than one side. She is a good person though. I wish her no harm. Thank you, Joanne.

      1. Well, PSE, if you have a crisis episode this week, that person who you call might not be too far from your block!

        1. If HG is in Midtown Manhattan, he is only blocks away from my apartment. And everyone comes to Midtown Manhattan, when they visit NYC. I hope he enjoys his time here.

      2. PSE, “The city is large at times, but also small at times.” Be on the lookout for HG. He’s there. Get a pic if you see him. It’ll be worth more than a shot of Bigfoot 🤣

          1. Ha, so you are here, HG. I knew someone would spill the beans. I’ll be looking for you in narcville – midtown east near Trump Tower.

          2. Of course! Slaps forehead. I hate rose scent however. Why? I had a roommate at University who never bathed and would cover up her stink with rose scented perfume. Ever since then, it makes me gag, so I will know it is you if you make me gag 🙂 🥀

        1. How do you all know where HG is? He tells his whereabouts to his instagram people, or something? but not to us over here? I am not on instagram. It’s okay. If I needed to know, where HG was, I would know. If you are in NYC, HG, I hope you are enjoying yourself.

          1. He’s plastering IG with NYC images PSE. As soon as I saw them, I thought of you. Dearest HG might look you up!

          2. Deaest HG: Yes. You are surely trouble. I am sure you have tortured many a smitten and enamoured female. I see it in your sentence here. [ `You will smell me first, I smell so good today`] My understanding increaseth. I have been very very very lucky in my life, over all. Whew!

          3. Hi PSE

            I have an account on Instagram just to follow HG
            He shows pics of places he is visiting and you must guess where .
            Also there are one or two where he speaks but it’s mostly pics and some glimpses of Shieldmaidan
            I follow but get really envious of the great time he is giving SM I know I know not great of me .Sigh 😔
            Let’s just say the relationship is amazing SM is soo spoiled with HG . It’s beautiful but we know the truth in the end won’t be so nice
            It’s great to follow him you don’t have to put up any of your own pics or anything it’s anonymous if you want it to be .Its fun and fairly frivolous
            There are a lot of followers there that I don’t recognise from the blog though , I think most of the very serious HG students frequent the blog more to learn etc.

            Kiki❤️

          4. Kiki: Thank you. I am not using Instagram nor Facebook. I have to wait until I hear about things on here. No problem. If he wants us to know something very important, I doubt he will forget to tell us on here, will be my thinking going forward.. Regarding the girlfriend, we do not want our dear and dearest HG to be running around without any fuel, right? We can not have it both ways. We need our HG prime and functioning, as much as possible.

  11. I cannot help but feel that I partly inspired this article as I frequently mention that I feel Piano Boy KNOWS what he is doing. Like my earlier post of telling me “I feel I am losing control”….

    Interesting and good explanation HG. I obviously look forward to reading the next article about the mid range.

    1. Shelf Fuel: Of course! When in your life have you been taught that people act instinctively in interpersonal relationships? Speaking for myself, I have never heard that in my life until now. It is a lot to think about. We have not been taught substantially about how to deal with other people, one of the most important things we should know about in order to thrive on this planet. Thankfully, HG Tudor is a Behavioral Genius, and I have plenty to learn from him, and I am learning much.

  12. HG, is a lesser narcissist always necessarily less intelligent than a mid ranger or greater? Or does the school have less to do with intelligence and more to do with insight and self awareness?

      1. HG, I am one of those people, of course, always thought it was planned, never instinctive.

        Just had to ask 😭 Same goes for a MR on these comments?
        1) scare her and she does what I need
        2) I always get the upper

          1. Sometimes it is not all about cognitive intelligence but about emotional intelligence. Some hit a seemingly cognitive wall and then they react out of frustration rather than allowing themselves to fail, to be more patient or even think of another way. Are narcissists like children or teenagers regarding to their behaviour ? Example, talented student A, tricky Lesson and application, won’t find straight away a solution, student B, less intelligent but pugnacious, gets it. The latter is asked to share out loud the correct answer with his classmates but student A says Something nasty concerning student A’s appearance and-or blames the teacher to have helped him find the solution. Raining by this way on student B’s parade meanwhile not aknowledging his “over perceived” Failure.

          2. Dearest HG: My understanding is that Failure is never an option for the Narcissist`s complete Survival Mechanism, which includes both their cognizant ability and cognitive emotional empathy: The Narcissism will not permit the Narcissists to ever perceive that they have failed in anything. This goes for ALL Schools and Cadres. They just handle the event where they have `failed,` differently. For Example, 1) one school and cadre will attack the winner in some manner, like the reader, myrifle, suggested, attacking his appearance or saying unfair tutoring occured. 2) Another will say that the way the teacher instructs is against his way of learning and favors the other student’s way of learning. And 3) still another will say that the entire subject matter is irrelevant, and whomsoever spends so much time to master such piffle* is a loser anyway. And on and on, etc. So, All Schools and Cadres will deflect away from thinking they lost or failed at anything, whether or not you or I know they have deflected and whether or not we can witness how they deflected. However, the lower the cognizance of the Narcissist, the higher the chance there deflection will be observed by others, but they ALL deflect whenever their superiority is challenged. The lower the cognizance of the Narcissist, the more immediate and often more observable the deflection. This is my understanding. *I borrowed your word, piffle, HG. I like it. It sounds like what it means: Piffle.

      2. I know I’ve worked with an upper lesser doc—so it’s funny you say this re, their intelligence. Drive pushed his academics—he wasn’t a genius but he had enough basic intellect to manage the material. Frankly the didactics aren’t horribly difficult, it only requires an ability to think critically and a commitment to building concepts over time coupled with some tenacity. I know I’m not “qualified” to say for certain he was an upper lesser, yet I’m certain. He was as rudimentary and comedic in his deportment at times (to watch) as Trump. He always wore cowboy boots with scrubs, threw stuff, screwed half the staff, and was far from a decent practitioner.

        1. There was an Upper Lesser doctor (I think he’s an Upper Lesser or maybe an Upper MR) here and he was acting so superior to my husband (because my husband is not an MD type of doctor) at the Christmas party when I saw him. My husband wasn’t affected by it at all, those things just roll off him and he still acts dominantly. I didn’t care for that doc so I didn’t even realize that my back was already turned against him when he was still talking to me. I saw his wife noticed it so I felt a little guilty because she was sweet. I empathically smiled at her. When we got home I told my husband that I didn’t care for him but his wife seems nice. My husband told me that there seems to be a dark shadow in his wife’s face like she was unhappy. A few months after that party he was all over the news. He was arrested for beating up his wife. He actually lost his license I think or was kicked out of the surgery center where he and my husband worked together but he got out of jail.

          1. It’s interesting how you pick up on things like this such as their interaction. Interestingly, the snobbery of credentials is useless and just shows how dumb someone is. “MD” is not the pinnacle of education like people think. Veterinary school (for instance) is much more competitive here because there is only one school in the state. Orthodontists make more money than many MD’s for example. It’s nonsense snobbery.

        1. Intelligence is but one factor and an LMR may be less intelligent than a UL, maybe more intelligent. Similarly with regard to MMR.

  13. Thank you HG. I’m so excited for the next part, the Midranger. Your sequels are some of my favorites and I’m in suspense waiting for the next!

  14. This is fabulous…so clear and ALL the perspectives provided… you’re good HG.

    I found this interesting:

    “His retreat means he halts the wounding because he removes himself from the source of the wounding. He now asserts control through ending the engagement.”

    That the narcissist still perceives that he is *in control* because he chooses to leave. He still believes he is “winning” here.

    My (MR) narcissist would often pull an absent silent treatment: once even exiting the car right on the street for no reason – at least I thought at the time. He refers back to this incident and states he left to “de-escalate” the situation – of course – to frame it as if HE were the one in control…

    Thank-you for this HG.

      1. Dearest HG: He does win when removing himself from the wounding. This is something that I find many of us empaths have a problem with, because many of us 1) were taught that walking away is losing, and/or 2) we have been taught that lovers never quit, even though what we are dealing with is often not love at all, on both sides. Therefore, many of us, seduced by our addiction, weep and wail and cling to the heels of the Narcissists as he walks away, while he is refreshed by our distraught and heartbroken fuel and he is strengthened to go and find even more fuel elsewhere, until he drops by again, at some point. Sooner or much later. Over and Over. I know I WON by leaving that work dynamic. It was incredibly difficult to do. I loved that place. And many of the people. I was addicted to the Narcissist there. Still, I won by leaving that overall dynamic that was bad for me..

    1. Who Cares,
      My MR did the same thing. “Enough of this today please, I am spent. Please leave me alone. We will talk tomorrow okay but please, no more of this for today”… and so on.

      1. Shelf Fuel,

        At least he’d give you a heads-up or a semblance of an explanation. From mine I got nothing; no warning, no words – just the sight of his back as he walked off.

        SF – how would you react when yours did this?

        1. Who Cares,
          There were times I would not get an explanation and he would just go silent. Are you asking how I would react when he would give me an explanation? I would typically continue on with whatever I was talking about and he would either continue to argue me OR he would just not respond. The last argument we had (before my current shelving) I backed off and left him alone as he asked. He did call me the next day and I rehashed everything to try to get some sort of semblance of working out the issue. He was pleasant and poured on his pity party to me. I ended up apologizing to smooth things over (as I usually do). The call ended on an indifferent note. I was essentially friend zoned and shelved. He said he did not want to make plans to see me for awhile. When I asked how long “awhile” was he said he did not know but to please not initiate making plans with him. He also said that the intimate part of our relationship was done as he could not handle the guilt anymore from cheating on his wife and kids. (he seemed more worried about the kids than his wife and went on a long winded rant about “bad karma”). That was a week ago and he has not reached out since. Neither have I.

          1. Shelf Fuel, Glad to see you, though I know it means you are stuck and unhappy. When mine mentioned his guilt for the very first time, something shifted completely for me – not because he felt guilty (I did not) but because to me it felt like he had turned me into his alt-IPPS – that is, to him he was making a choice between me and IPPS yet to me there was no choice because I did not want to be IPPS and made that clear. Basically what he was doing was triangulating me with IPPS even though I did not position myself so he could do that. He did not call the whole thing off at that point, but we did have a huge argument because there were other things that he said that were completely unfair but which also indicated that he was classifying me the same way he did IPPS. I never apologized because I did not do anything to him – he apologized. But a few weeks later, we both called the whole thing off. Six months after this, he wanted back but I did not. Piano Man will return but I hope you take this time to really cure yourself. There is no winning because even if you are fine as IPSS, Piano Man will want you to not be fine. He will always destabilize you. Do you really want your whole life to be about him? Because that is what is happening…

          2. Hey SMH! Good to see you here as well, although I wish it was under better circumstances. An interesting point on the “guilt” that you share. He has repeatedly told me “I am not leaving her for you”. yet there times he acts like he “answers” to me in the context of that type of relationship. He will say pitiful things like… “I need you to trust me and not question me”. “Please tell me you love me and are okay with me” ‘We will get through this, we always do”

            Then there are times he says “I will never be with you! Why would I want to be with someone who is so horrible to me?”… “You are getting too close to me and I am getting uncomfortable again”. and lastly (and the most hurtful) “I could be in love with you if I wanted to. But I cannot afford to do that. This is where I am in life and you are just going to have to deal with it. I cannot give you what you need but I can give you what I can”

            Lastly when I posted passive aggressive stuff about him on my social media he gets pissed off and then picks a fight with me. What I post is ambiguous and I do not call him out but he takes offense to it and says stuff like “if you ever do that again I am through with you” and “I have never done that to you” Okay first of all why would be do that to me? I am a DLS! Why would he ever post social media shit about me?

            All of that just came to the forefront of my mind when you said….

            “felt like he had turned me into his alt-IPPS – that is, to him he was making a choice between me and IPPS yet to me there was no choice because I did not want to be IPPS and made that clear.”

            This is how I feel except he knows I want to be IPPS. He knows that I want nothing more than for him to leave her and be with me. But you are right there is no choice. yet all the shit he has said to me… looking at that further it often seemed like we had that dynamic the way we would argue. If I am DLS and just a “side piece” why does he want me to “trust him” and “be okay with him”. Why should he care if I am some shelf girl, some DLS. Why get so bent out of shape over a passive aggressive social media post? No one knows about me except for him. No one is scrutinizing his moves with me. No one knows I even exist in his world.

            You are right it is all triangulation.

            Oh he apologizes too. But I still apologize way more.

            “Piano Man will want you to not be fine. He will always destabilize you.”

            I learned this again. Things were fine since February. and then one day when we had plans….out of nowhere he cancels on me and says he had a funeral to attend (I found out it was a lie though). When I called him out on it he “destabilized” me, we had a huge awful argument where he said he wanted “space for awhile”. The obligatory apologies were issued (mostly from me and some from him) and now there is this big rift of silence. Neither of us has reached out. So yeah it is only a matter of time.

            We always had our weekly phone time on Thursday. Yesterday for the first time he did not call me. So I am either shelved or still “black”. Who the fuck knows.

            Sorry so long but your comments resonated with me and made me rethink my own situation.

          3. Hi Shelf Fuel, I am glad my comments resonated and you are talking and not hiding – getting through it. Even though PM says he only wants you as IPSS, he still wants you to want to be IPPS, as you can tell from the way he reacts to things you post. It is very similar to the way MRN would project onto me. If PM is consistent for awhile and things are okay, your fuel will get stale, so he has to create drama. MRN would do the same. In fact, when I told him I only wanted to be IPSS, his tone changed suddenly – I think he had to think quickly because he was operating under the assumption that I was competing with IPPS, when I was not, so he had to find other ways of causing drama in order to turn on the fuel spigot. I came very close to telling him that he liked the drama, but did not actually do it until I had escaped. I did not call it ‘fuel’ because I did not know the terminology yet. I think I called it ‘heat’ – you like the heat that conflict generates. There is no winning here, as I learned the hard way too! But I am 18 months NC now and feeling quite fine. I don’t even much think about MRN anymore when I am on here. He is very abstract to me even when I give detailed examples of what transpired. I know you can get there too. Now would be a good time to block PM! If you really want to blow things up, tell IPPS :). PM will hate you for it but that is another way of getting him to leave you alone.

          4. SMH. and SF
            Hello.
            You stated to SF that her fuel goes stale so he needs to cause drama. I was under the impression that shelf IPSS fuel doesn’t go stale as it is not used that often. Could it just be that PB thinks he is being challenged whenever she asked him to clarify a statement or she has the gall to question him about something? Him being a MRN could just be throwing a temper tantrum oh whoa is me before the silent treatment and her being shelved again.
            Just curious

          5. Things were fine since February so maybe I am stale hence the lie to cancel plans with me. When I had the gumption to question him…..well that is when I had my ass handed to me. Challenging him? Stale fuel? Both? The fuck if I know. I cannot tell the difference between silent treatments and shelf anymore.

            All I know is after I challenged him I backed down during our argument. We then had an “indifferent” phone call (where he was either nice nor mean). Yesterday (the day he usually calls me) he did not call and I got no explanation whatsoever.

            Until earlier this afternoon. Earlier this afternoon I got a text that said “My darling girl, I beg your pardon for not calling you yesterday. It was a long and trying day at work and I went home much later than usual. But I love you, I miss you and I am thinking of you.”

            I replied back “I thought you wanted space but thanks for clarifying”

            He replied “Certainly, no problem”

            It has been silent ever since.

            Lather, rinse, maim.

          6. Kim-e, Maybe HG can answer this better than I can but I know that with MRN, it didn’t matter what I did, the pattern was always push pull/intermittent reinforcement/destabilize. It could very well be that it all depended on what was happening with IPPS but then she was getting the same treatment as I was. I’d be shelved because he did not need my fuel when she was golden, then I’d be taken off the shelf when she was devalued, etc. Only towards the end did I start to challenge him. But again, it did not matter what I did, the pattern was always the same. Maybe stale isn’t the right word – it’s more not needed?

          7. SMH,
            Piano Boy projects A LOT. When I poked holes in his excuses of why he could not see me he was not happy that I challenged him. I became this horrible person who needs medication and needs to calm down, I ask for too much and he needs a break. His guilt and shame is just too much and I never am considerate of HIS needs or how HE feels. Yet he will always keep engaging with me. Even though at the time he is shelving it is still so painful and feels so final it will still hurt like it is some new fresh thing. I treat every time he sees or talks to me like it is the last time. When he does come back around the relief I feel makes me forget all the latest shit. Every time. Even when I do not test or challenge or irritate him (like I said things were fine since February) it eventually happens anyway. So when you say he needs to switch up the drama to crank up the fuel spigot….oh my God that makes so much fucking sense.

            Things were fine since February (ironically my birthday but my birthday is usually a shit show with him). We had plans one Friday and then out of nowhere he says he has an out of state funeral (which I uncovered was a lie and confronted him which is what led to all of this). So all I could think of was why not just say “hey I need some time to myself” or “I do not want to have plans with you”. No. He had to tell a lie that would make him look like a decent person (funeral) so I would not question it. Except I did question it. And I am sure he knew that I knew he was full of shit. But that was what started our arguments and ultimately led to him saying he needs and wants space from me. And then for him to tell me to not initiate plans with him anymore.

            Anyway I go back and forth with wanting to tell the IPPS everything. I doubt she will leave him, she caught him cheating once before and took him back. He also threatens me “If she finds out about us then I will never speak to you ever again”. If I was the one to tell her I think his wrath would come for me. So I will pass on that for now.

          8. SF, “When he does come back around the relief I feel makes me forget all the latest shit. Every time. Even when I do not test or challenge or irritate him (like I said things were fine since February) it eventually happens anyway. ” Yup. Exactly what it was like for me. Now think about what is happening with him when you express relief and forget all the latest shit – positive fuel. Then it eventually happens anyway (he withdraws) and what do you do? You challenge him and so give him negative fuel. It’s exciting for him so either the opposite is happening with IPPS (it’s like a see-saw – she is down and you are up or she is up and you are down) or he just needs to shake things up with you.

          9. If you went no contact properly there’d be no shit to experience therefore there’d be no need for this false relief. GOSO.

          10. I know who she is, SMH, GOSO is achievable but people have to apply some effort.

          11. Hardee har har….yes it is hard. I crave him like a drug addict craves a line of crack.

          12. SMH when he texted yesterday it was like the fight and the argument and me challenging him never happened. He was all “I love you, I miss you and I am thinking about you…” and then he disappeared again.

            Needs to shake things up. yeah that sounds about right. I know nothing of the current dynamic with his wife but yeah shaking things up still sounds about right.

          13. SF, Yup. Never happened. The only time MRN acknowledged that something had happened was when I went off on him in a big way (it was the beginning of the end). But instead of apologizing, he said ‘it’s not your fault.’ lol. Otherwise, we often went for months NC or not seeing each other, and when we would see each other again, it would be as if no time had passed at all. There would be no discussion of what I had been doing or what he had been doing – time stands still with them but before you know it, you will be over the hill. Don’t let that happen!!

          14. Sf that is the biggest load of horseshit , every time you talk about him he comes off even more twatwaffley than the last .
            “My darling girl” 😆DUDE this guy is a HOAX
            LIKE, being DLS should at least be FUN . Getting shelved and condescended to, silenced, stood up, what are you even getting out of it?

          15. Doesn’t matter what SF is getting out of it, he’s a narcissist therefore GOSO.

          16. It may sound twatwaffly (excellent word by the way) but that is actually how he talks and texts. It is always “my dear, my darling, darling girl, honey” etc. etc. etc Oh and “Kiddo”. Always with the “Kiddo” (even though I am 5 1/2 years older than he is). But that is the way he talks and texts.

          17. He sounds like a tacky cockroach that needs to be flushed down the toilet to me…

          18. LMAO…..just like the real cockroach I sprayed last night that was crawling on my floor. I cannot handle the insects in the south.

          19. It sounds Twatwaffley because it is. He’s being condescending not affectionate . He’s telling you every time he says that to you that he thinks he superior to you . He thinks he’s smarter than you . He looks at you like a poor pathetic lonely empath who’s life he’s gracing with his impressive presence .
            He’s just a cheater. That’s it that’s all there is . He cheated on his wife while she was pregnant, correct? What kind of a person does that?
            What kind of a person strings along a woman with children,(you) who he knows is in love with him— for YEARS?!
            And makes like he’s doing you some kind of FAVOUR by not rejecting you and abandoning you? What kind of a man does that? A LOSER, that’s who. You gotta face it you’re in love with a loser.
            I know it’s romantic to think you have some sort of complicated relationship but it’s not complicated, he’s just a cheater that’s all .
            And by allowing someone to treat you like this you are telling your deepest most inner self that you’re worthless . Youre internalizing the worthlessness that he’s projecting onto you .
            And once that starts happening —-man.. it’s not pretty . Life will start to respond to that vibe that you’re putting out . You’re basically announcing to the universe that you’re a victim of circumstance . That’s a pretty powerful announcement.
            The good news is you can change this in basically one day with one decision .
            There will be a little bit of fallout probably a few months, when what you put out will continue to come back to you. You’re going to want To go back to him for some comfort , but if you stick it out and are brave it will pay off.
            It’s just like without alcohol – you have to decide to change your life.
            You have to decide to do better for yourself .
            You have to decide you’re worth more than this

            Otherwise you’re just going to be on the merry-go-round forever and it’s no place to be

          20. I should add
            I flipped the pointing finger to myself with my MMR I was a DLS to for 5 years.
            I asked myself ; What kind of woman has an affair with a committed man? A selfish one. One who doesn’t think she can do better. One who doesn’t want to woman up and be alone .
            What kind of woman puts up with being shelved, hidden, lied to, strung along? A gullible one. One with low self worth. One who doesn’t look after herself, respect herself.
            *These were MY answers to MY questions to myself- I’m not speaking for anyone else*
            When I saw all this – what HE is, what I am – I decided it wasn’t reflective of how I actually feel about myself. So I just started behaving in a way that reflects how I really feel about myself .
            I started treating myself with respect and dignity, & love .
            If I actually got confused for a minute I asked myself with someone who respects herself and has high self-worth with you and then -that’s what I did .
            It really was a long before I was back to who I was before the narc. Even better actually – because I never really properly developed into a fully grown adult woman before I met my kids dad . So I redefined who I was- in my 40s . No problem.

          21. SF you are continually ignoring HGs advise in this thread. You just skip over it like nothing was said and keep justifying your contact with the narc. That’s your right… its your life… but you would be wise to stop and think about what he is saying and try and start implementing it.

          22. SMH I respectfully disagree with your comment that PB/PM wants SF to be IPPS due to his reactions to her posts. I feel he reacts that way bc he doesn’t want to lose control of her as DLS.

          23. Ahh ok I must’ve misread 👍🏻 Of course he does, eh? Lol. These guys

    2. Ah, the Car Exits . . . and me driving through the streets trying to find him. He was probably hiding behind a tree or a house as I drove by. Then, me giving up the search and going home, with him coming home an hour later, almost frozen solid because I left him “no choice” but to walk home in the freezing cold. Ah, the memories!

    3. My kids dad would storm off in a huff almost every time we argued. Heh.
      The BEST one was not long ago, sometime last year, I don’t know what we are arguing about, child-support probably.
      I said , “I DONT BELIEVE YOUR REALITY!” Hoooooo boy!! Just CRUSHED him. *Immediate* about face – storms off – he hissed “get lost!” under his breath as he went. It was awesome. Just nailed him lol

  15. ‘Instinctive planning’ has me waiting both patiently and excitedly. I feel like this is my new ‘stranger setting’ aka a light bulb moment. Even without explanation it makes sense. Shall I say my connection to this new idea is instinctive, albeit unplanned 😐

  16. Excellent article HG!

    It is almost making me want to be the IPPS of a lesser just to have the opportunity to make them that angry.

    1. I can arrange it if you would like, I hear Lee the Lesser is after a chip-throwing, wonky-toothed wench!

      1. hahaha sounds like we’d be a match made in heaven! send him over. I’m getting butterflies just thinking about it

        1. Alex: Noooooo! You are looking at the body parts of the lesser in a wrong way a bit. Remember, the feet will be used for stomping and the hands will turn into fists to be used for punching. And the mouth will twist and call you profane names, and on and on. Buyer Beware.

          1. Ah okay hahaha I thought L was referring to distasteful feet. Oh but I want to make them stomp and become furious. I’d have to dodge the punches though. That would make them even more mad right?

          2. Alex. Sure. It will make them mad enough to stop on your face after they have punched you to the ground while calling you profane names. This product is presented: As Is. Pass on this option, please. It is from a very bad batch. Better selections should be arriving shortly. Thank you for your patience.

          3. PSE
            A ‘product recall’ message about Lesser Ns to avoid societal harm?
            And to avoid harm to our lovely Alexis Smith, in particular?
            Thank you.

            Lessers leave the production line with the appearance of being an attractive, useful and advantageous product for the consumer, who finds themselves rendered ill from years of toxicity.
            Keep up the good work!

            New warning labels have been issued by ‘Evil Lair Publications Inc’, a subsidiary of HG Tudor Industries.

        2. I’ll send my kids dad right over. HIS front teeth have rotted out of his head.. he’s dying for a Mommy. You got medical?

          1. Beware he will chest bump you and snarl “hit me! Hit me! Hit me!!” to try to get you to start it

            Just spit in his face. He will accept that as enough negative fuel and smile and slither away

          2. Woke: Common Scenario: After he says, Hit Me, Hit Me, and you do so, and then he punches you about, you will then call the police, and the police will ask if you hit him as well, and you will say, yes, and thus you also will be placed in handcuffs as you are both taken `downtown` to be investigated and processed. You will then say to the police, he told me to hit him. The cops will then ask you, do you always do everything that someone tells you to do??? You will be speechless. And then the police will take a photo of your face, full on, and then a profile photo of your face and also a line will show how many feet and inches you stand for your criminal file in your locality.This happens to women and men, all the time. Hit me, Hit me: Never hit them if at all possible. Everything you say and do will be used against you. Everywhere.

          3. Not with mine. He just wanted me to hit him so he could slither away and use it against me FOREVER.
            He’s a victim narc.

            But yes I hear u

          4. If he’s an N, I’d be happy to drill his front teeth out for him Woke, I have my own toolkit now.

      1. Ewww gross thought! Well as they’re a lesser I could make myself a non-intimate primary

        1. Alexis—I stumbled upon a perfect lesser. I think I’m in love. Lil Wayne (the one and only) even tried to enroll in the University of Phoenix to study online courses in psychology. Can you please tell me why? Like couldn’t he just be happy being a millionaire rapper? Is this grandiosity at play? In a five minute period though I was browsing kitchens online and then I ended up on a Lil Wayne write up.

          1. Hahahah Lorelei, If I had the answers I’d definitely tell you! I’m not sure I feel the same way about Lil Wayne, but at least that means we don’t have to share. Glad the kitchens distracted you for a little while at least.

          2. Just make sure you get a good prenupt! Oh F*** it! Fancy sharing after all?

          3. HG, can you set up a new consultation service please. How to marry a very wealthy lesser?

          4. clearly we’d do it on a percentage basis of their net worth rather than the standard rate.

          5. Lorelei and Alexis
            A couple of thoughts from your comments about Lil Wayne:

            It’s well known that the caring professions are a rich source of Empaths.
            Nursing and Psychology top the list.
            Lil Wayne is casting his net by signing up to study Psychology.
            The fuel from lectures and tutorials, and any social events will be worth the fees and price of pretence.
            He doesn’t have to study, or pass, or be good at it.
            He’s just there for fuel.
            It’s easy work for an assured great catch of the day. Money well spent for him.

          6. Lorelei, you’re going to see him? You’ll be watching him with fresh eyes since finding HG. Have a good time! We’ll all be interested in your thoughts afterwards.

          7. Haha Caroline—that’s why we looked him up! It’s a long story—but we ended up
            getting nearly front row tickets. Think of it this way—it won’t be a musical sensation but it will be hilarious. I may have to drink.

    2. This is a great idea Alexis! It would be funny to make them mad. It’s as easy as flicking a switch! The dumber they are the easier! When they get mad they can’t even make words and then sputter and spit. Once the spitting commences the knockout slugger antics begin. Coffee tables fly. The dog runs and we just turn around and walk out.

  17. Brilliant HG! 👏👏👏 I can’t wait to hear this one recorded! I love it when you do the voices.

  18. HG this was a great article which brings further insights. you diagnosed my ex narc as a upper mid ranger where you talk about an automated behaviour – yet if he talks about his behaviour in terms of needing to be in control, telling me I’m attached and taking his IPPS on a ‘bonding’ trip – surely these are the words of someone with a level of insight?

    1. Thank you Em. Please see my response to Shelf Fuel with regard to the issue of control, it is not insight.
      1. He sees you as attached to him but not for the real reason there is an attachment.
      2. When he talks of a bonding trip, he will not see it in a control way (which is what it is) but more about getting to know one another.
      3. His recognition of needing control is a manifestation with regards to certain elements of his life but not the all encompassing control of the narcissist.

  19. HG,

    When do you think the translation team will manage to catch up if you just keep pouring new articles? 🙂

    A very good one, btw.
    Waiting for the MR now!

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