Calculation and the Narcissist

CALCULATION AND THE NARCISSIST

I often read comments along the lines of

“I am ensnared by a narcissist and he knows exactly what he is doing, he is calculating it all and is determined to destroy me.”

I have no doubt that such belief is honestly held, but it is usually incorrectly held.

Why is that?

  1. It is only Greater Narcissists that are aware and operate in a calculated manner. Greater Narcissists are very rare indeed and therefore as a matter of statistics, if you have been ensnared by a narcissist, it is highly likely to be a Lesser or Mid-Range Narcissist.
  2. Mid Range Narcissists can appear to operate in a calculated manner owing to higher cognitive function. This is called “Instinctive Planning” which I will explain further in relation to this subject.
  3. The effect of emotional thinking. Yes, as you know emotional thinking obscures the use of logic and it does this repeatedly and in thousands of different ways. One of those ways is to cause you to think that the narcissist has planned and is operating in a calculated fashion because this will cause you to obsess more over what the narcissist is doing, talk more about what the narcissist is doing, try harder to contact the narcissist in order to halt this supposed calculated campaign against you and of course what are you doing if you do one or more of those things? You are engaging and feeding your inherent addiction to the narcissist. Accordingly, your emotional thinking absolutely wants you doing it and will make you ignore logic and honestly believe the narcissist is acting in a calculated fashion.
  4. The projection of your world view. Obviously you look at the world from your standpoint and because of this you think that anybody who engages in such behaviours as the ones you are experiencing must have planned them, because if you acted this way, you would know what you are doing and you would have planned them. This entirely understandable viewpoint of yours means that you cannot help but regard the behaviour as pre-meditated and calculated. You, as an empath victim do not manipulate through instinct. You have no need to do so, you are not designed that way and in fact if you ever (in the unusual event) try to manipulate somebody you tend to fail at it because you are just not made to do it and you are not practised at behaving that way. We on the other hand are designed to manipulate and for those who are not as evolved as the Greater Narcissist it is done through instinct. You impose your worldview on our behaviour, that is not high-handed of you at all, but it is incorrect.

Thus, these factors result in you erroneously reaching the conclusion that the narcissist is operating through calculation towards you.

How then do narcissists operate and what is their state of knowledge. Firstly, you ought to read these articles (or revisit them)

Do Narcissists Know What They Are Doing? The Lesser

Do Narcissists Know What They Are Doing? The Mid Ranger

Secondly, let me provide you with an example to increase your understanding.

We must have control at all times over environments and that means the people within those environments and of course that includes you. The Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists do not realise this is what they require, this is known at an unconscious level. The Greater knows that control is needed and also has vastly superior abilities to achieve that.

The narcissist has turned up at the victim´s house to effect a direct physical hoover. The victims does not live any longer with the narcissist and there is an ongoing divorce process between the two.

He knocks at the door but the victim does not answer the door. The victim maintains no contact by not opening the door to tell the narcissist to reason with him to leave her alone. The victim does not shout through the letter box telling the narcissist to “Foxtrot Oscar”, the victim does not gesticulate through the window for the narcissist to go away or open the window and pour water down on the waiting narcissist. No matter how tempting those responses might be, the victim must not execute them because that is engagement which means

  1. Fuel Provision
  2. Potential adverse consequence , and
  3. Heightened Emotional Thinking

aka The Devil’s Pitchfork : The Three Bad Outcomes of Engaging With A Narcissist

Previously the Victim would engage through pleading, shouting and even threatening. All of which is Challenge Fuel and only encouraged the narcissist to keep asserting control and indeed lowered the Hoover Bar to prompt further hoovers.

Accordingly, the victim´s failure to respond amounts to wounding. The victim is the Former IPPS and therefore is at the top of the fuel hierarchy. This failure to respond is “in person” and therefore the result of this is massive wounding for the narcissist.

This massive wounding means that fury is ignited. This is part of there narcissist´s self defence mechanism and occurs because it is a visceral, emotional fury which is necessary to MAKE the narcissist do something to end the wounding, heal the wound and gain control. It has to be explosive to cause an immediate response.

The Lesser Narcissist

The Lesser has a low control threshold on the ignited fury. He operates through instinct only.

His narcissism, were it a voice would be stating :-

“We do not have control. Assert immediate control. Our range of options are limited as this is a Lesser. Utilise Verbal Insult and Property Damage.”

The Lesser does not operate a facade. He has no control. He absolutely needs control and he needs it now.

The narcissist, unaware of what his narcissism is “thinking” responds immediately with Verbal Insult as a form of manipulations, albeit crude and rudimentary.

He shouts

“You had better open this fucking door now, you bitch or I will kick it down and I will come in there and teach you to ignore me. Open this fucking door now!!”

The Victim holds no contact. The wounding is continuing because the narcissist remains at the Victim´s door but he is being ignored. His fuel level is depleting rapidly, he is being wounded and he is not getting fuel.

The narcissist switches instinctively to Property Damage and picks up a large rock from the garden and hurls it through a window smashing it.

The Victim holds no contact but reaches for the phone to call the police.

The narcissist is still being wounded because there has been no response to the smashing of the window. He picks up another rock and hurls another one through the window. The Victim still does not respond.

At this point the narcissism, were it a voice would be stating

“Situation critical. Repeated massive wounding. Target failing to respond. Control not established. Immediate need to end wounding and establish control. Withdraw.”

Throwing a few choice comments the narcissist leaves before the police arrive. His retreat means he halts the wounding because he removes himself from the source of the wounding. He now asserts control through ending the engagement. He will be forced to go and gain fuel so he heads to a different appliance and engages with them to obtain fuel to address the reduction in his fuel level. He does not think

“Damn, I did not gain control there and I was being wounded, so I need to go and gain fuel elsewhere.” (This is what is occurring at an unconscious level)

Instead he consciously thinks “What a cow ignoring me like that.” He heads off to the bar to tell his Coterie about her latest ignorant behaviour and their disapproval of her conduct and approval of his conduct “That showed the bitch you will not be messed with” provide him with fuel to address the wounding suffered and replenish his lowered fuel levels.

Meanwhile the Victim, affected by the four points details above sits awaiting the police and thinks to herself.

“He knew what he was doing. He purposefully came around to intimidate and smash my windows. He always used to smash things up when we were together, he knows exactly how to terrify me and does it on purpose.”

Her Emotional Thinking hijacks her fear and uses it against her.

Her worldview causes her to view the behaviour as deliberate and calculated, but as the worked example above shows, it is not.

She believes this part of an ongoing campaign of harassment which has been deliberately thought out against her – the narcissist keeps calling around because there have been Hoover Triggers and the Hoover Execution Criteria have always been met (primarily because the narcissist does not live far from the Victim, he drives past her house on the way to work and previously she has always given fuel to the narcissist when he comes banging on the door.) This belief causes her to think this is a Greater who is orchestrating a malice campaign against her. It is not, it is actually a series of Malign Follow-Up Hoovers because she is painted black (there is an ongoing divorce process) and there are repeated FUHs for the reasons explained.

Thus the Victim believes that this is calculated behaviour, albeit somewhat crude in its nature and either thinks that this is a Lesser Narcissist who plots and plans or that because he evidently plots and plans this is a Greater Narcissist who is especially unpleasant violent. Her conclusions whilst understandable are incorrect.

He is a Lesser Narcissist. There is an unconscious awareness which is the way the narcissism operates and if it had a voice it would state the points I have explained above. However, it does not and the Lesser Narcissist does not know why he does as he does or he has an alternative explanation for his actions (again obscured by the narcissism and the nature of its self defence) . He does not act in a calculated fashion.

The Victim is misled through a lack of understanding, fear, emotional thinking and worldview into believing this is calculated and pre-meditated behaviour.

The Lesser Narcissist can give the impression of knowing what he is and what he is doing and that it is calculated, but for the reasons explained above, he does not know and it is not calculated.

Next will be the Mid Range Narcissist.

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229 Comments

  1. Hi HG and site users,

    I’m hoping to get some help.

    I’m a bit confused by my narc ex fiance’s recent behavior. We dated just under a decade and broke up in 2016. Off and on we’ve talked with him declaring his undying love everytime but getting uncontrollably angry about me not being ok with his choices post breakup. Recently I told him I didn’t want him back and couldn’t abide some of his life choices. He attempted to discard me but I wouldn’t be silenced and kept texting him my unfiltered thoughts. I suddenly started receiving messages from new supply I didn’t know existed who was telling me how happy they were and to stop contacting him. She seemed to think that I had been contacting him to no avail since we broke up. It was actually him who’d been pursuing me since the break years ago. Before I could tell new supply that, he changed his cell phone number. I had planned to change my number, but since he changed his can’t reasonably expect that he won’t be contacting me ever again?

    TLDR: ex fiance narc triangulated me and new supply (who I had no idea existed – if it really was another woman texting me and not him) through texts, after I called him out via texts and threatened to expose him. Before I could expose him, I was beginning with his venemous new supply, who doesn’t know he was pursuing me, and not the other way around, he changed his phone number. I had planned to change my number, but I’m wondering if it’s necessary now. Can I count on him never contacting me again?

      1. Thank you for the quick response, HG. I may need to make use of that if anything further happens.

    1. Hi Melanie
      Change your number. You can never count on them not contacting again. They believe they own you until either you or he dies and there are many here that will attest to being hoovered years later. Remember that their thought process is different to ours so the logic you are currently using (about why you think he will not contact) does not not apply to him. Use the search bar to find articles on Hoovers and No Contact for example, and consult with HG for detailed information regarding your specific situation.

      1. Thank you, NarcAngel. I know you’re right. It’s not going to be fun doing it, but it’s necessary. It occurred to me that I’m even more vulnerable to his whims now because he can contact me whenever and I cannot contact him to even request that he stop. Plus new supply, if she even really exists (as I only received texts that could’ve been from him) may have both my email and phone number now.

      2. I received more messages from the new supply (who’s likely either the narc or the person he rebounded with after we broke up) and I’m irritated. I’m seriously considering exposing him. I have contact info for the new supply and I have prepared a file with all the evidence. I’m upset by the fact that he gave someone my phone number. Although I also wonder if he would’ve been stupid enough to do that as she would then be able to contact me at any time. Plus the number used by the new supply is a disposable one. I traced it. So this might all be for nothing and he may have been pretending to be new supply.

        Is exposure worth it?

        1. No. You have deduced several possibilities evidenced by what you have written. Do not allow your ET to take you into continued engagement with the narcissist, The Devil´s Pitchfork applies.

          1. Thank you, HG. I didn’t know what ET meant, when I read your comment. So I did some reading on the site and the posts talking about it resonated a lot with me. I also read up on The Devil’s Pitchfork. All of the narc’s behavior lines up with your writings. He’s got a long record of domestic violence against women, but he’s extremely smart and has a high level job. He’s emotionally stunted though and quick tempered. I believe he’s a lesser. Calls himself unknowable. The only thing that hasn’t made sense to me is his phone number change. He’s had that cell number forever and that’s a pretty drastic step. I know I wounded him and threatened to expose him (I’d never done that before and I managed to get around him blocking me for the silent treatment, so he couldn’t not see my wounding truth jab messages),but still. It wouldn’t make sense to change it only to hover me one day and give it back to me. I really hope he’s discarded me permanently. I did everything I could to make myself look like an awful choice for fuel.

          2. Hello Melanie, there is no such thing as a permanent discard. You must impose a total no contact regime. If you need assistance with this and understanding the risks, do arrange a consultation with me.

  2. Very good, HG. I am looking forward to the Mid-Ranger one too, but I can also relate to this, having been IPPS to a Lesser (Alexissmith2016, you don’t want to go there, trust me).

    As you say, the behavior is instinctual. You also point out in one of your responses to the comments that instinct does not mean no responsibility (for instance, the law would find the narc responsible and punish the behavior). It reminds me of what it is like to parent a toddler – parents teach a child how to behave properly and a sense of responsibility when the behavior gets out of hand. A normal child will learn to act appropriately without succumbing to instincts (need for fuel, attention).

    What you describe here is scary because it concerns a grown man. But if we pretend that you are describing the way a poorly parented child might act, it gives us insight into how to respond by not responding. For instance, when my kid would ‘act out’ as a toddler, I wouldn’t engage with him until he behaved properly. Since what he really wanted was attention, which he would get when the poor behavior stopped, it worked. It seems what you are advocating is something similar. Look at the inappropriate BEHAVIOR rather than the (to us) opaque motives. Don’t move towards the behavior (instinctual or not). Ignore it or move away from it. I am not saying that the situations are the same at all, just that it gave me some insight into how a Lesser thinks by comparing him to a toddler. I could go into detail about the toddler-like behaviors my exL engaged in but I don’t want to waste my breath.

  3. Thank you, good examples to illustrate the mindset.

    Do ppl who ask your advice ever mention having a physical response to the presence of a greater? I’ve known two (that I am aware of), and got dizzy spells around both of them. At work, or in public, not even necessarily one-on-one. It is weird to describe, but I get clumsy, trip, lose my balance, etc. And it is more pronounced the closer they are.

    Not sure if it’s an aura-thing, intuition, or just a bad vibe. If I sit down, it stops.

    Do others describe anything similar?

    1. Re. the floor is open
      Must be a trap door, or is it not?
      I don’t remember having had any such physical reactions to Greaters but their carefully crafted type of charisma can have a “pull” on people that is unique to Greaters.
      I was friends with a Lower Greater Somatic and she embraced her bad girl person to such an extend, you wondered why people kept wanting to associate with her. They always did. Someone even tried to call her out by telling her “you’re just a f*ucking narcissist, aren’t you!?” in front of a group of friends. She looked him dead in the eyes, went “I guess I kind of am, aren’t I?” and proceeded to sip her beer. Everyone laughed, nobody took him seriously, he was later disengaged from and spent the rest of his dignity on being on the outside, trying to get back in. I doubt she had full knowledge about her condition, but would often brag to me about how dumb people are and how she can do whatever she want’s with them, they will just keep crawling back to her. The fact that she was comfortable telling me this straight to my face speaks for itself.
      The only two physical sensations I can think about are this aforementioned “pull”, as well as an elusive sense of imminent danger. That was the first thing I felt upon meeting the Upper Greater, but he was just a well-liked business man in a nice suit, charming, engaging and eloquent. Nothing to see here, right? Yet I still remember my first instinct was to run and hide in the Ladies Room until he left the event, I’ve never felt more uncomfortable. He proceeded to engage in polite conversation with a friend of mine and since he did not seem to share my impulse, I stayed and eventually “got over it”, finding that Greater to be as fascinating and fun to talk to as everyone else did. Greaters are Empath Catnip.

      1. Desiree: Hahaha: ` Greaters are Empath Catnip.` Desiree! NOW you tell me what is really going on in here. The Truth finally stands up and brushes itself off, and rips off the camoflauge. My goodness. lol. Well, what goes on in Narciste stays in Narcsite along with all the other viewers from the over 15 million hits, I guess. My goodness.

    2. It’s like butterflies when it’s a good vibe with a good, normal person, but it’s different when your intuition knows you’re in the presence of a person who isn’t good for you.

      1. Kelly D, I mistook the signs for those butterflies. They were different though. My narc and I were sitting on two different seats across each other, discussing our feelings -well, I was discussing my feelings for him and he was mirroring me I guess-. I couldn’t stop shaking and feeling a knot in my stomach. He gave me a class of wine and I couldn’t hold my drink because my hand was shaking. He offered me a sweater, but I wasn’t cold. I didn’t know back then, but now I know: I was scared. Like a mouse in front of a snake.

        1. SP, I was petrified of MRN and told him so at the end. It is their coldness – how do we communicate with someone who does not use part of their brain?

          1. Mine was lacking something and I couldn’t tell what. I remember he stared at me as I talked and I asked: why do you stare at me? And he said: I’m just wondering if we are gonna kiss today. But then when we were going to, he just waited to see what I did, and followed mechanically. He didn’t act in a passionate manner. He didn’t seem to feel anything. It was so cold like you say, and I didn’t have a sense of what he was feeling inside like I normally do when I’m making out with someone. I don’t know how to explain it, it was like kissing an empty box. With a six pack! Ha. The same thing happened the day he had is premature little incident. I didn’t even notice he was coming. No emotions. When he told me, I said I’m disbelief “no you didn’t.” Then I looked and he was right. It was so weird.

          2. SP, Weirder than mine for sure. MRN was quite normal about sex. It was everything else that ended up giving me the creeps. Once I saw it, I couldn’t unsee it, which is how I managed to resist. An empty box is right though. I used to say MRN’s brain was like a flat paper bag rather than an inflated balloon.

      2. KellyD. Do you think there are 2 feelings when one encounters one? A. One feeling is to be afraid of them? B. And the other feeling is to be afraid of oneself? A. Afraid of what they may want to do with you versus B. afraid of what you may want to do with them? Anyway, Choice B is only is a fantasy. They always want to be in control.

    3. Set Witchery,

      I often get physical sensations and reactions to people, things I see in person or in TV/movies, and physical sensations always accompany my own intense emotions.

      I can’t say I get physical reactions to Greater Narcissists as I only just learned about them, so I am not sure I have ever met one. I don’t know why I was getting physical reactions from certain people.

      Mr. HG Tudor stirs some intense emotions in me which are accompanied at times with physical sensations. I am sure I would get a fairly intense physical reaction if I ever did smell him when he smells so good. Yum. Am I alone in this?

      1. The sensations I experienced were more hypnotic/entranced/hyperfocused, along with loss of balance, dizziness. Not unpleasant, but confusing and disorienting.

    4. We have a couple at the nursing home I work at. Mostly lessers or MR but we have one who I suspect is a G.
      He gave me one of the “wait, what did he say?!” backhanded digs once. I get the same feeling in my gut as when my narcs give a malign dig- but he was so subtle . He eyes me – watches me . I see it in my peripheral- and he is intelligent.
      luckily he doesn’t need much care.
      With the other ones, I just pawn them off to another worker or team up bc they behave when there’s two of us and only one of them lol

  4. Today was a good a good day in court against my Upper Lesser, who I used to think was a Greater. Finding out what you are up against is prevelant.

    1. Anm
      I’m glad to read that you had successful day in court. The winning days will continue to add up on your side with your new knowledge.

      1. NarcAngel,
        It was epic. Both him and his attorney are Upper Lessers and obnoxious. We have been litigating for 6 months on a motion that I filed in February, and then he of course did a counter motion to avoid accountability and to throw mud. The Upper Lesser was asking me to pay thousands of dollars to him, and to pay his attorney fees. I hired a very very good attorney to represent me for the hearing. One hearing alone cost me a couple of thousand dollars. But I had to lose my attorney for the remainder of litigation, because it turned into a 6month ordeal. I had to represent myself. At the last hearing, yesterday, the narcissist’s true colors came out.

        My ex’s attorney under estemimated me. She knew she was hired just to discredit and smear me. They never have solutions to problems, they just show up with more problems and accusations. At our last hearing, they wanted to use 8 police reports as evidence against me. It was all just nonsense of my using third parties to get in on his tactics. I contested and had their evidence throw out based on late submissions and hearsay (not actually having the officers present). The attorney was pissed. This shut them down quick. I went ahead, and said I wouldnt use my own evidence. I then moved in with a very specific order that I asked the judge to order. It was very detailed, a win win for everyone, and hopefully leaves no wiggle room for the narcissist. The judge was so impressed with how I calculated everything, and how I came up with the resources to not rely on the narcissist for the court order. The judge ultimately gave me everything I wanted, didn’t want to hear the narcissist accuse me of being a bad mom, and didn’t make me do anything the narcissist wanted me to do. THANK GOD.

    2. Anm, congrats!! I just found out mine is an UL too. I never thought he was a Greater though, although the possibility scared me. It really is very eye opening to know what you are dealing with, that’s why I told HG it would be extremely beneficial to translate the narc detector test and be able to show victims what they need to be looking for, as I myself kept reading info about the MRN and was completely wrong.

      1. Sweetest perfection,
        My daughters father does have money, he was very athletic, has the houses and cars, the beautiful women, and what I thought was an extensive fuel matrix.
        It is just a facade. Even after winning my hearing yesterday. He is throwing a fit, “you can’t make me!!!” like a child or Lesser would. It’s a give away.

        1. Anm, I can’t tell what my narc is because he has a public persona. He is relatively successful, and physically he could be a greater somatic. But like yours, he behaves like a child. It’s not easy to categorize them, that’s why we need HG’s expert advice.

      2. That is interesting, SP, because I have also been operating under the assumption that mine is a mid-ranger. He so fits HG’s description, that I cannot imagine him as anything else. Maybe I am wrong but since I was also involved with a Lesser, and he also fits HG’s description to a T, I don’t think I am far off about either one. I’d have to do narc detector to be sure, though.

  5. Wow! This really clears things up for me. For so long I thought my narc deliberately set out to hurt me. Knowing now that most of it was just an instinctive reaction to his perceived criticism makes me feel a little better. At least every awful thing wasn’t done intentionally.

  6. Your explanation of different views is very accurate, HG. I feel so much more relieved after the consultation today. Thank you so much for your insightful information. Your impersonation of my upper lesser was extremely on point too, haha. You nailed it. I am really glad I finally decided to talk to you.

    1. Good. I’m pleased you found it useful, everybody who consults with me finds doing so of tremendous benefit and highly informative.

        1. SweetP
          I hate to add to his hat size but he really is the best isn’t he? Professional, humorous, informative, insightful, considerate, ACCURATE AF……….

          No one should hesitate. There’s nothing to lose but the questions that haunt you.

      1. Right? To be honest with you I was more worried about having to talk for an hour. I had even prepared possible topics to fill the silent gaps: DM favorite albums, favorite wines, do you like cats… it went by very quickly though and it was extremely helpful.

        1. Content to discuss the first two topics, cats are only good for throwing out of windows to watch them land on their feet and walk away as if to say “fuck you”.

          1. Re: Cats are only good for throwing out of windows to watch them land on their paws and walk away as if to say “fuck you”
            When I was younger, my cat would hurl herself off the 3rd floor balcony repeatedly and walk away unscathed. My mother had left the balcony door open and I would be wide awake at 2am to go find my cat while my mother ran her mouth about “have that cat take care of herself for once, you can still get her in the morning”. My cat made deliberate escape attempts to get away from the matrinarc long before I did and for that, I applaud her.

          2. Oh I love cats , don’t want to end up the stereotype cat lady though
            I loved these mystical graceful creatures since I was a tiny child
            Cats are quite narcissistic also and in my opinion are smarter than dogs but not as goofy and fun . I own a pedigree Burmilla cat and Westie terrier.
            There is a saying “There are only two things aesthetically perfect the clock and the cat”

            Kiki

          3. Funny you should say that, HG, as my second conversation with MRN was a story about a cat falling out of a window. He laughed and that was the hook. I’ll bet narcs prefer dogs – obsequious.

          4. SMH, I prefer dogs myself. I like cats too, but my dog would eat my cats.

          5. SP, you are not a narc and are allowed to prefer either one or both! I prefer cats myself – I find them pretty hilarious. plus easier to take care of. Also probably because Matrinarc is allergic to them :).

          6. I like all animals. I saw something about a little animal yesterday that ruined my day. I felt terribly depressed and sorry, I’m really sensitive to animal abuse. And to negative news. Let’s say some days I’m too sensitive to life in general and it will be shorter.

          7. How come HG… does their cold nature remind you too much of yourself ? 😉

          8. My narc hated cats too! We would always joke around about it. But he liked dogs… quite a lot and was affectionate with them. Do narcs find it easier to be affectionate with dogs as they are good appliances? Listen to commands, sit around and worship them with thier tongues hanging out …. I wonder. I’ve read a few things about narcs connecting with dogs lol.

          9. HG
            Yet if someone charged that you couldn’t lick your bottom you’d produce a trophy confirming you as champion.

          10. No, I would tell them they are a degenerate and suggest they scrub themselves with a wire brush and a lot of bleach.

  7. To add… my natural instincts kept me engaging with the narcissits. But this does not make it any excuse to keep putting up with the abuse and put myself in bad situation. I am responsible for my behaviour as is the narcissist.

    1. Indeed you are and it was your emotional thinking that caused you to engage. The difference is, when you reduce your ET you can see that, the narcissist cannot see any basis for accountability.

  8. This topic I find interesting. As I have interacted with a handful of people in my life who are narcissits. And I can actually tell who among them is aware and who is not..: 2 were aware, 1 of those was the man I dated. There is a long list of reasons of how I could tell but that may bore everyone.

    I am concerned how much validity we give to things being “instinctual” though… I am not necessarily arguing the point as I have witnessed ones who clearly operated out of instinct. However… are we taking the responsibility of their own behaviour away by saying “it’s instinct” because that I don’t agree with. When someone physically harms, rapes, engages in phedophila, murders… they are responsible for those actions. Disordered or not. I can’t condone giving those people excuses. Luckily… our legal system (although not perfect) would agree with me, that actions have consequences regardless of ones nature.

      1. Perhaps. My concern is more saying “oh it is their instinct to do so” is taking away the responsibility of the behaviours…

        1. It is acting as an excuse for the behaviour, therefore taking away responsibility from the individual to control said behaviours.

          1. Indeed but instinct and responsibility are separate concepts.

            I operate through calculation to avoid responsibility.
            Lesser and Mid Range operate through instinct to avoid responsibility.

        2. Your concern is understood.
          It is instinct. That is a fact, it is not something else when it comes to Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists.
          You cannot say it is not instinct, it is.
          One can state it is instinct and this is designed to avoid accountability/responsibility but the victim must not allow themselves to be led by ET into thinking that responsibility should be put to one side. However trying to say that it is not instinct in order to make the narcissist accountable is incorrect, the narcissist remains accountable from your perspective and in a majority reality situation the legal framework will ascribe responsibility to the narcissist.

          1. When you say ascribe responsibility you mean to say that the legal system will make the narcissist accountable for their actions? (That is of course- when the proceedings are not corrupt)

            I understand what you are saying but I think it is dangerous thinking. If I tell myself “he abused me out of instinct it’s is not his fault” then I am
            Talking myself into going back to someone who harms me. And becauSe I am an empath… I can/will do that. Reducing our emotional thinking is just as difficult for us as accepting accountability is for
            Your kind.

            The narcissit IS accountable for thier actions. Whether they see it or not is not
            The point. We operate within a society… and within that society we have laws.

          2. I am not saying it is not his fault Empath007.

            The narcissist operates instinctively. This is done to reject accountability. The Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists do not operate consciously. Of course society looks to make the narcissist accountability, as I explained previously , this is because it operates on the majority perspective.

          3. HG—I know your time to answer questions is limited—yet I’m curious what you mean by suggesting that since you are calculated you therefore avoid responsibility. I’m a bit lost—I can even ask in consult but I ask here first because someone else may have the same curiosity. I’m questioning if what you essentially mean is that because you are calculated you escape any culpability by means of executing behavior that cannot bite you in the ass—legally for instance. So, the “victim” knows but what you get over on them is not landing you in a pot of hot water. You can wash your hands of it—move along unscathed for instance.

          4. Correct. Also my narcissism maintains that I am not culpable and I take calculated action to assert that state of affairs.

          5. Majority perspective… are you trying to imply we should live in a world without laws?

            Just because a narcissist does not want the rules to apply to THEM. Does not mean the way we operate as a society is entirely flawed (although arguably most systems are flawed… because of narcissits lol)

            Anyways. We will not reach an agreement because we see the world entirely different.

            I just wanted to point all this out so that when victims read about the instinctual responses they do not use that as an excuse to go back
            To the narcissist. Or as a way to excuse the behaviour and take the responsibility away from the narc.

            Thanks for
            Your time HG.

          6. No. You misunderstand. There is no such thing as an objective reality. There is a majority perspective that has one form of reality, a moral foundation arises from that and then a legal framework arises from that.

            We are not part of that majority perspective. Just because it is the majority perspective does not mean it is “right” objectively, it is subjectively right for that majority.

          7. There’s no real. There are “realities.” We all have ours. You helped me think of the different realities of the view of each school and it was magnificent.

          8. empath007

            Think of totalitarian regimes: they can develop anytime when a large enough number of people is ensnared by a charismatic leader who then exerts control, aided by those who are ensnared. The harmful narcissistic perspective then becomes the majority perspective also as part of the legal system. No matter whether you yourself believe that such a system is wrong. For you there will be only exile to a country that has another majority perspective. If you’re lucky.

            If I understand you correctly you think it’s dangerous in a way to say that lesser and midrange narcissists operate on instinct rather by calculation because it presents their behaviour as less harmful. You are arguing (I think) that the concept of instinct shifts the blame for their actions onto something they cannot control, and if we believe they cannot control their actions they connot be held accountable for them by empathic standards.

            I see it the other way around.

            Instinct is something that is very dangerous and should not be regarded by compassionate people as something that diminishes accountability!

            To say “oh the poor soul didn’t know what s*he was doing therefore what s*he did is not as bad as doing it if s*he had known what s*he was doing” is a statement reigned by ET.

            LT is to get a sense of how aware the narcissist is of his or her narcissism to gauge quite how much mayhem they are capable of inflicting to yourself or someone who is ensnared and whom you care about.

            LT is to realise that there are a lot more narcissists around than we normally realise because we confuse narcissism with calculated narcissistic behaviour and discount instinct as an incredibly dangerous force. As non-narcissists we discount instinct because we are able (in various degrees) to control our instincts, and compassion is part of our instinctive behaviour.

            LT is the ability to empathise with a narcissist by understanding the circumstances that made him or her operate according to the laws of narcissism, while not having to fall prey to their worldview or having to become ensnared.

            If we are entangled in a narcissistic relationship we invariably collude in their world view or perspective as we become a pawn in their bid for fuel. Using instinct as an EXCUSE for their behaviour would mean to collude in that worldview still.

            To show the difference between instinctive and calculated behaviour is an EXPLANATION, not an excuse – but evidently you can use explanations to excuse behaviours – or you can use them to protect yourself with heightened understanding.

            If I get HGs mission right it is the latter that he’s promoting.

          9. Wolves operate by instinct.
            We don’t fuck with wolves.

            I don’t see that’s there’s any blame to distribute.
            Narcs destroy. It’s what they DO. It’s their nature. So just don’t fuck with them and all is well

      1. Haha! If I gave away the whole list that would give away a lot of personal details I do not want to share on the internet. I’d rather consult with HG confidentially.

        To give a few expamles though… he was an eloquent writer. Much like HG he poured a lot of thought and detail into his messages. So much so that the messages would take him hours to construct. I could see the little bubbles on the phone going for HOURS. Then I would receive this carefully crafted message that usually showed up as an attachment. The love bombing eas intense and specifically designed for me. He was no dullard like Christian Grey lol. He spoke poetically.

        He only operates with IPSSs. HG long ago told me that could mean two things that there is a veiled IPPS (which there is not as he has been “single” for 6 years now – And no IPPS also we work together and have the same
        Friends so I would know if he did) the other is… that he’s a greater.

        He had no fury that rose to the surace.

        Every action he made was planned out… including the placement of things in his house, and how long they stayed there. Thier purpose etc.

        He was careful and thoughtful about every move he made.

        When I would suggest something I was mad about he would always “tweak” his behaviour as to please me in order to give the impression he cared about what I said.

        Charm was his go to attribute. When HG describes in articles how the greater handled things he always fits that list.

        He had malicious intent. As one of my punishments he tried to get me fired from my job.

        Lastly when I confronted him about being a sociopath… his face washed with this look of “you figured it out” and he admitted it to me. Said he had studied the subject and that he met the criteria and that’s he had known for some time.

        He was also fasinated by murderer and would even tell me some
        Of his “movie ideas” for how certian murderer would play out:

        There is more detail but that would require much more personal detail. Whatever he is (as it is self assessed) he acted with motive and intent. And I’m just glad he’s out of my life.

        1. Empath007, yes you’re better off far from that guy, how scary! Next to him, my narc is just a vain Somatic with ADD!

        2. It’s a trip when they know.
          In my drinking days, before Narcsite, I was at a local bar and of course everyone is talking to everyone. Me and some young thing were outside smoking and I (drunk and uninhibited) said “…my sociopathic friend”
          And he said “hey! How do you know that?!”
          I just said- instinctually, and something like “just try not to hurt anyone”
          He replied “but I have to. I WANT to.”
          He was so jazzed , I think he thought I was one too. Wanted my number and tried to FB friend me. I never responded in fact I blocked. Like UM NO.
          Maybe he was , maybe he wasn’t.
          But once I was sober I was like yeah I don’t think so buddy. Like I need THAT.
          I still wonder if he was one or just a wannabe but he was drunk and I think being honest. EESH

          I didn’t realize that about the greater not needing an IPPS that had an occurred to me to watch for. Interesting .

          1. I think the not having an IPPS is strange for narcs or at least not the the norm no matter what school. But he had intimate partners… he just compartmentalized us from one another. I would imagine he may use the same women for long periods of time. But he was extremly odd at best.

  9. Now, the question is, how can we use this information to our benefit?

    There’s definitely a reduction of anxiety, because now we should be aware that the N does not just stay there all day plotting new ways to get revenge or to hurt us.

    It’s also much clearer that not interacting with them will force them to retreat and seek fuel elsewhere, and this conduit will most probably also result in least damage incurred to our property and sanity (since they’ll quit faster).

    On the downside, there’s also an increase of uncertainty though, since instinct sounds a bit more chaotic than expecting some logical vengeful reaction from the N.

    Any other ways we could use this to our advantage?

    1. Good points until the point re uncertainty AM, that was a manifestation of ET. till, 2 out 3 ain´t bad, as someone once sang.

    2. Maybe it’s just me, but I would feel better knowing it is all planned, not instinctive. Because “instinctive” means that their anger is instinctive but also their seduction. It means that if they are nice to you, they do really feel the need to be nice to you. When they seduce you, they “feel in love”.

      I know HG is right anf if he says it is instinctive, it is. But I am telling myself that my mid ranger is a cynical liar who plan the seduction and discard. Who feels nothing and who wanted to manipulate and abuse me from the beginning. Maybe it’s not true. Maybe he felt in love. But only believeing it was all planned helps me to encrease logical thinking and keep NC.

      1. They feel love? Or do they simply instinctually procure fuel for themselves, by whatever means necessary?

      2. Read my comments above Bluewave! this is why I also get concerned about the instinctive nature. I don’t argue it exists as we all have instinctive nature but it is dangerous territory.

        Also, he is a cynical liar. That’s a fact. The beginning was love bombing… not love.

      3. Bluewave, the way I understand it is that when they were seducing you, they were genuinely infatuated with you and how you make them feel (how your fuel provision fills them up). And also how your assets will help their lives (residual benefits). It is instinctive for the Lessers and Mid Rangers. It is calculated for the Greaters. But none of them are capable of real unconditional love. My Victim Lesser mom told me that she targeted my dad when he was dining with his coworkers at the restaurant she was waitressing at because he had a Rolex watch and he looked like a really good guy. I asked her if she was ever in love with anyone. She told me that she doubts if love is really true because she has never experienced it. Then she added that she has always felt grateful to my dad for financially supporting us and for having been a complete gentleman to her when they were still together. So she concluded that maybe being grateful is already love. My MR half sister, whenever she started dating a new guy, she got excited about how wealthy he was and she kept asking me if I think that he is good looking because it seems very important to her that she is not dating someone that most people would think to be unattractive. She goes on about how smart the guy is and how crazy he is about her etc. but all is being told to me as if she was describing her new acquisition to me. Then she starts to do a lot of super sweet stuff for the guy but she does a tally in her mind and keeps score of her gestures were not reciprocated. When I fell in love with my husband, I can’t even describe the feeling. I just know that deep inside me I wanted to be there for him through thick and thin forever and I want to make his life better and I honestly didn’t care if my sister or anybody else thought that he was handsome or not. It wasn’t about impressing anyone for me, I just wanted to be with him. So just because it was instinctive for them, doesn’t mean that they were in love with you. And also, just keep in mind that even though it was instinctive for them during the seductive phase, doesn’t mean they will not make the rest of your life miserable because of all of their destructive and toxic behaviors that are also instinctive to them. So NC must be implemented to save yourself from more misery.

        1. I love the description of you and your husband ❤️ That’s really special. I have felt that way about a few men before but have never fully felt it back… so I think it’s wonderful when people can truly find their partner in life.

          1. Thank you empath007. It can happen to anyone as long as we are careful. I remember my mindset when I started dated my husband. I have previously been ensnared by two narcissists (at that time I wasn’t aware what they were). I didn’t get into formal relationships with them except for NISS but I was so upset at the dynamic that I wanted more for myself where I would be cherished and respected. I heard about the book ‘I Kissed Dating Goodbye’ and decided to follow that philosophy. I didn’t date anyone until I find someone with the character that I believe I will forever respect and admire. I was very lonely but I didn’t compromise. I met my husband where I was working and I immediately liked him from the first time I interacted with him. He was a widower and was 28 years my senior. The more I interacted with him the more I admired him as a person and wished that he was a part of my life. My narcissist sister called him up to tell him that I have a crush on him because she figured it out because I was talking about him all the time. He said that he also has a crush on me but he’s too old for me and was worried about our future. She convinced him to follow his heart and so he asked me out. The more I got to know him the more I realizes that he’s a really good person. He’s probably the most consistent person that I have ever had in my life. He was never flashy with anything but he is consistent and dependable. He’s not the ‘Romeo’ that I pictured my soul mate would be but he’s real and he deals with my imperfections with a sense of humor and love. I am so thankful that by meeting those narcs before him I was able to compare and contrast behaviors and find out how I want to be treated in a relationship and also what is real versus an illusion.

      4. I struggled with this too but what might also help you is to think that instincts are dangerous and not to be discounted when dealing with people. It might help you to think that you can trust your own instincts more because instincts are powerful.

        Many of us know instinctively that the narcissist is not good for us but we override that instinct. How? By using ET which is a warped kind of logic designed to override your instinct.

        Listening to our own instincts is incredibly helpful in developing an addiction to LT rather than ET :)

        And then what might also help: if the behaviour of your narcissist was calculated he would be a greater. And then your life would be a hell of a lot worse than it is.

        Instinct alone can cause only so much damage . But pair instinct with awareness and you can get psychological and emotional wreckage on a nuclear scale. Nuclear, global, all encompassing.

      5. Bluewave,

        Here are some questions you might want to ask yourself:
        1. How do I feel? Was I hurt or not? (see The Narcissist’s Wheel of Misery)
        2. If yes, does the existence of an excuse (instinct) change anything about the end result (me being hurt)?
        3. If it does not, then why do I have this idea that planning is preferable to instinct? Why does this make me feel “better”? Why do I care?

        We all have instinct. But we can also control our instinctive behavior. Just because we act out of instinct does not mean we are not responsible for what we’re doing.
        The difference, I think, is the existence of a conscience. Since narcs don’t have one, everything they do, instinct or not, is justifiable from their perspective.

        In my opinion, lack of conscience may be regarded as a sort of an excuse for them. Instinctive behavior – not.

        But, of course, in this case:
        4. Even if lack of conscience may be regarded as an excuse, do I want to have anything to do, to invest my time and feelings, in a person without conscience?

      6. Bluewave
        From my experience in addiction rehab….

        It’s a recognised part of having an addiction that the behavioural responses driven by that addiction, with time, become largely subconscious.
        They become instinctive when endless and focussed repetition creates denser neural pathways in our brains.
        In other words, the addictive behaviours take on a life of their own.
        Conscious choice becomes bypassed at some point.

        By way of example, when a person is trying to quit a long term smoking habit, they have to mindfully choose to not smoke, and disrupt triggers, change routines, and patterns that cause them to reflexively reach for a cigarette.
        I’ve known recovering smokers who’ve told me that they feel stressed about something, and then they suddenly realise at some point that they have a lit cigarette in their mouths, and they’ve smoked half of it already.
        How did this happen?
        They have no recollection of getting the cigarette out and lighting it; the addiction is so deeply ingrained that it takes on a life of its own.

        Knowing this is the first step in quitting, and putting new behaviours in place that will meet the need without the cigarettes, eg. if smoking is from stress or boredom.

        The narcissism is deeply ingrained as a defence mechanism, and the narcissistic behaviours are well practised over a long time. The neural pathways become like a deeply worn track or groove, laid down in the brain according to the reward/pleasure systems. As a result, the adult N moves through life largely on a foundation of instinct, with some conscious choice laid on top of that.
        The Lesser shows little insight. It takes an Act of God for them to see things from your perspective sometimes.
        The mid-ranger shows some insight but doesn’t care. They blame everyone else, and get pleasure from others’ suffering, as do Lessers.
        The Greater is always playing mind games. They are all driven by their massive sense of entitlement and their overblown ego.
        They are entirely self-absorbed.

        I hope that this gives you some clarity about N-addictive behaviours. I found it helps me to process things. Ns are addicts.

        1. Caroline R, “I’ve known recovering smokers who’ve told me that they feel stressed about something, and then they suddenly realise at some point that they have a lit cigarette in their mouths, and they’ve smoked half of it already.” Totally true. It’s the pattern. I used to smoke a lot in college and I kept the habit every time I had to write. In my head, the intellectual activity of thinking what to say and writing it down was subconsciously connected to the act of smoking. For other people, the trigger is having a drink or having a coffee. I quit cold turkey when I met my husband because he hates the smell of cigarettes. I didn’t have a hard time doing so, except that 15 years later, I still feel like smoking a cigarette when I write. The pattern of smoking while thinking and writing is still in my subconscious. But I haven’t acted on it and never will, quitting smoking is the best decision I made. The second was quitting my narc. Let’s hope that second addiction gets way under control too.

          1. That’s why you gotta burn all the bridges w total NC
            I’m in a small community so I occasionally come into my narcoholic’s line of sight but I just promptly go the other way and if he was higher functioning and set about malign Hoovers I’d move.
            Same w my MMR-DLS situation, is move if I had to, but he’s not interested in messing w my life and risking exposure of his infidelity .
            You can’t have cigs in the house if you want to quit- you don’t go to bars if you’re getting sober-and you don’t have contact w a narc if you want freedom from them

            SF I think you just have to take the F on this one.
            You may love him but he’s not yours. At the very least that is the start of acceptance. You’re still in denial I think – if u fantasize about him leaving the wife. Even if he did- he’d replace you with another DLS. Guaranteed.
            HG has confirmed he’s a narc- which means all these years has been a massive waste of your time UNLESS you grow from it.
            How many more years of your life do u want to spend in purgatory as DLS? 3? 5? 10? 25?
            It’s gonna suck worse the longer u go

            Ask yourself seriously “Is this the best I think I can do?”
            There’s no good answer lol but it’s the right question.
            What would you tell your daughter if it was her? Your best friend? Your mom?

            Identify the “addiction voice” that comes in . “Maybe I should call and explain” – that’s the addiction talking.
            “If I do this- he will think that” -addiction Voice.
            If you can identify the addiction talking , just dismiss it with “That’s the Addiction Voice” and banish the thought.
            Gets easier over time.

          2. SP
            Thank you for sharing your insights.

            Well done going cold turkey from smoking!
            I’m pleased that you did. Love really is the best motivator.
            Everyone who smokes long-term ends up with some emphysema (damage).
            Your experience of the triggers and the way your mind had tagged smoking with writing, and how long that association has lasted is interesting.
            I find human behaviour fascinating.

            I kicked a sugar addiction in 2014. I read that it’s pro-inflammatory, so thought that that was reason enough to stop.
            I weaned myself off gradually, and allowed my sense of taste time to adjust.
            My first step was to stop having sugar in my caffe lattes, and restraining myself from buying sweet things when I went grocery shopping. Especially in my way home from the gym.

            I recently had some Cadbury’s Breakaway chocolate biscuits on an empty stomach, and I started to sweat.
            Not good.
            I hadn’t had any milk chocolate for about 18 months.
            I suppose it was from the insulin spike and subsequent sugar crash.

            I still have an emotional craving at times for sweets and cake, and I recognise that it’s all tagged in my mind to birthday parties, socialising, having my Empath grandma visiting etc. Love and sugar from childhood. An instant but temporary mood elevator.

  10. I like the “voice” of the narcissism. It provides very clear context into what’s going on. Giving “narcissism” an identity on its own makes it easier to see past the clouding of emotions tied to the person. Looking forward to the MR version.

    1. Joanne: Yes. When one takes a breath from the painful catastrophe of the horrendous emotional hurt, it does help to know that a Survival Mechanism is at play that guides the Narcissist. I still wonder what will happen if I encounter the Narcissist in this city. The city is large at times, but also small at times. I have not seen him in about six months now. Will my heart be ripped almost out of my body. I know whom to call if I have a crisis episode.

        1. Joanne. Correct Joanne. GOSO implemented for around 5-6 months or so now. I no longer work around him. (He was not my boss). I did not really keep an accurate count of months or really verbalize overly much what I was doing, even to myself, because I believe I was subtly deceiving my ET to prevent a psychological crisis or backlash or some blowback against my logical self from my E.T. regarding removing myself from the presence of the Narcissist, but not, of course, his 4 malign Lieutenants that hoovered me. But it is done. I felt like I was performing a secret dangerous surgery on a part of myself. The surgery was successful. I am out. And, I definitely made the correct decision. I lost some entangled friends, because I had to drop them as well. I had to also change my gym location. It is all pretty much settled now. I basically kept telling them that I was ill and I just never returned. I read on here that Narcissists are somewhat repulsed by the illness of others, and I remembered that and so I chose that route to remove myself. I can feel that they smear me somewhat. Also, it is usually a good thing to be popular. And, I was very popular there, but now it is not good for me with them all, because people keep asking about me and he and his 4 Lieutenants have to keep answering, and I am sure it irritates them to no end. But, I can do nothing about that. Some people do care about other people and they have no idea that they make it worse for me when they ask him or his 4 lieutenants about my whereabouts. It is all so weird and odd. At end, I was `Outnumbered, but not Outgunned` as HG Tudor writes about in his book.

          1. PSE
            Great job! Way to GOSO. I remember when you were on leave, stressing about going back and his most recent ensnarement being your close friend and the stupid birthday video. I’m glad you were able to remove yourself from that situation. That is not easy, so well done!

          2. Joanne. I am really touched that you remember those details. Gosh! I never did that video. She was so determined! Yes, my friend made some aggressive hoovers, I asked HG about it and he said that it was probably an unconscious desire on her part to impress the N. by bringing him info. etc, as she replaced me at that time, and I just basically told her that being sick is too boring to talk about, but thanks for inquiring. A month or so later, she sent one more hoover, saying I made her look bad by not coming back when I said I would. However, I never made her a spokes person for me, though. It is not easy pleasing a Narcissist, she will find out. She expected all glory days??? I told her it was not intentional, but I had illness setbacks. My goodness. I think she was more a Lieutenant for the N. by then and also the new NIPSS instead of me. She replied we could meet off site away from the job. I told her when I was better. It was like talking in a chess game. She had an edge to her voice. So unfriendly. I had to let her go, Joanne. She sounded like a different person. Harsh. She never knew that I was infatuated with the Narc. She seems to have become Turncoat Lieutenant, HG calls them, for the Narcissist, but it was not intentional originally on her part, when I asked HG about her again, but he did say she seems to have turned into a Turncoat Lieutenant. And that sort of Lieutenant is the worst and dangerous, Joann, because they know more of your personal side and likes and dislikes and beliefs to spill to the Narcissist. So, I had to let her go. The job of NIPSS at work is all hers. I do hope it works out for her, but she sounds edgier now. Already. He is a big sulk, although that side of him never really bothered me. Now she probably knows that he has more than one side. She is a good person though. I wish her no harm. Thank you, Joanne.

          3. PSE,

            I think I saw one of your recent comments where you stated that another lieutenant has recently spotted you in the gym, and these encounters seem to get more frequent.
            I’m commenting here, because I don’t know where that comment of yours was, and also because I think this article relates best with my message.

            The latest ET manifestation that I lost recently was fear. It was an unexplainable anxiety related to my Nex. I did not have to meet her or one of her coterie members, I just had this anxiety inside, constantly.
            I don’t know if this article sparked the release, but it happened after this article was published.

            Do not be afraid, PSE!
            Unless he’s a greater (sorry, I don’t know what your N is), he can’t touch you and he’s also not plotting constantly on how to get in touch with you. He just does not care. You maybe appear in his mind here and there, but if your NC is strong he won’t be able to do anything (unless you want him to get it touch with you).
            Do not be afraid to tell the lieutenants to fuck off, or to ignore them completely. Do not be afraid to lie blatantly, like a narc does, “I’m sick, I can’t come to work”, or “Busy, can’t talk right now”, although you are clearly feeling quite ok. Do not be afraid to not provide any further explanation. None is needed.
            Do not be afraid to draw the line completely, to act like you never knew these persons, even if they are seemingly good persons who are worried about you. You have very good reasons to look “crazy” from their perspective.

            Once no longer afraid, you’re free.

      1. Well, PSE, if you have a crisis episode this week, that person who you call might not be too far from your block!

        1. If HG is in Midtown Manhattan, he is only blocks away from my apartment. And everyone comes to Midtown Manhattan, when they visit NYC. I hope he enjoys his time here.

      2. PSE, “The city is large at times, but also small at times.” Be on the lookout for HG. He’s there. Get a pic if you see him. It’ll be worth more than a shot of Bigfoot 🤣

          1. Ha, so you are here, HG. I knew someone would spill the beans. I’ll be looking for you in narcville – midtown east near Trump Tower.

          2. Of course! Slaps forehead. I hate rose scent however. Why? I had a roommate at University who never bathed and would cover up her stink with rose scented perfume. Ever since then, it makes me gag, so I will know it is you if you make me gag :) 🥀

        1. How do you all know where HG is? He tells his whereabouts to his instagram people, or something? but not to us over here? I am not on instagram. It’s okay. If I needed to know, where HG was, I would know. If you are in NYC, HG, I hope you are enjoying yourself.

          1. He’s plastering IG with NYC images PSE. As soon as I saw them, I thought of you. Dearest HG might look you up!

          2. Deaest HG: Yes. You are surely trouble. I am sure you have tortured many a smitten and enamoured female. I see it in your sentence here. [ `You will smell me first, I smell so good today`] My understanding increaseth. I have been very very very lucky in my life, over all. Whew!

          3. Hi PSE

            I have an account on Instagram just to follow HG
            He shows pics of places he is visiting and you must guess where .
            Also there are one or two where he speaks but it’s mostly pics and some glimpses of Shieldmaidan
            I follow but get really envious of the great time he is giving SM I know I know not great of me .Sigh 😔
            Let’s just say the relationship is amazing SM is soo spoiled with HG . It’s beautiful but we know the truth in the end won’t be so nice
            It’s great to follow him you don’t have to put up any of your own pics or anything it’s anonymous if you want it to be .Its fun and fairly frivolous
            There are a lot of followers there that I don’t recognise from the blog though , I think most of the very serious HG students frequent the blog more to learn etc.

            Kiki❤️