The March of the LoveFrauds
You died the moment you met me.
My kind are engaged in wholesale slaughter. A daily massacre. Nobody is stopping us either.
These massacres are not literal deaths. No, they way I leave you I believe that you may actually prefer to be dead in order to end the pain. The unrelenting pain and misery that I will inflict on you. What I kill is your confidence, your self-esteem and your sense of worth. I annihilate your finances, obliterate your friendships, shred your sanity and drive an icy cold dagger through your very being. You see, people like you pride yourselves on being honest, decent and understanding. That’s what makes you so attractive to me. That’s what makes the killing all the more complete.
You may think that I am an awful human being and that I revel in the consequences of my behaviour. For some of my kind that is right and for others it is not. Some of my kind have no awareness of what they and believe that what they do just has to be done. Others of my kind know exactly what we do. I am not concerned about how you feel. I have no interest in your reaction to what I do. All I am focussed on is what your emotional reaction does for me.
People are stupid. They need everything to be labelled, to be categorised and pigeonholed. They need great big flashing neon signs telling them what people are as they are too idiotic or lazy to try and work it out for themselves. See the man in a dirty raincoat with unkempt hair that hangs around the children’s playground? He is a child molester. Look over there at the man with a striped shirt and a bag with the word ‘Swag’ on it. He is a burglar. What about the lady in dirty, piss-stained clothes, mumbling to herself and trying to feed the pigeons stones? Oh she is a madwoman. That is what people expect to see. Ask anybody to draw a picture of a murderer and ninety-nine times out of a hundred, they will draw a crazed looking man, dressed in black, carrying a knife or a gun. They won’t sketch their spouse or their relative. Ask a person where they will most find a rapist and they will answer that he will be lurking behind a bush near the subway ready to leap out on some stranger. What they won’t do is point at their boyfriend sat next to them watching television.
And that is where the problem lies. You expect to be able to recognise those that will cause you harm in such an obvious manner. It isn’t like that. There is a reason that those dangerous people are able to hurt in the way that they do. It is because they are all around you. They are sat next to you in your car. They stand with you at the water cooler or in the lift. They talk to you at the school gates or serve you your daily coffee. They permeate society. That is what makes them so effective. The ability to blend in and hide in plain sight. How many times have you heard the neighbour interviewed about the horrific murder of a family by the father, say,
“He always seemed so friendly and happy.”
Or.
“He kept himself to himself.”
Or.
“He was a quiet man. I never thought he had it in him.”
Or my favourite.
“You don’t expect these things to happen here do you? You always think it couldn’t happen here.”
These people appear as innocuous as they are so ordinary and fit with their surroundings. They have masked what lurks beneath. These people, the drug dealers, the killers and the abusers were ordinary. They were themselves and they made no attempt to hide or be different.
This is what makes me so dangerous. I make a conscious attempt to blend in with those around me. I am a shape shifter. I take on the characteristics of my victims, mirroring what they love and enjoy. I become what you want me to be. You have always wanted to meet the successful business owner. I am he. How about the well-read bookish fellow who enjoys the theatre and some amateur dramatics? I can be him as well. You just love people who have travelled extensively? Let me tell you all about my yearlong world tour. Rock nut? Done. Singer? Do re me fah so lah ti do. Family man? No problem. I will morph and twist into these ideal people and in so doing I will slide my tendrils around you with insidious ease and pull you into the full horror of my world.
You are not able to see me coming. I hide behind a thousand masks. The bad people I have described above make no real effort to inveigle their way into your world. They are already there. They are part of your day-to-day life and you are unlucky that you just happened to be near them when they struck. I am completely different. I have come after you. I have marked you out as my prey and circled you, preparing to strike. I engage in subterfuge to further my aims and to enable me to glide in and out of people’s lives with slippery ease. I suddenly appear. Oh, there may be some existing connection admittedly, but that is all part of the preparation. When I actually enter your life I do so in a blaze of deliciously disorientating glory that has you rooted to the spot and gagging for more, such is the addictive nature of my behaviour.
All my work is done before I engage you. That is why your execution takes place the moment we meet. All else that follows is merely your elongated death throes and believe me, do I like to drag them out for the maximum of effect. I even pretend to try and resuscitate you from time to time. That’s just a ruse to enable me to suck more of the life from you. You may regard that as twisted. I don’t care. So long as I am able to feed, that is all that I care about. I must feed. Each and every moment to try and satiate this insatiable hunger that rages inside me. I think that the hunger can be sated but somehow, it never seems to be the case.
Thus my killing goes on and on and on. Victim after victim piling up and the beauty of it all is that I merely slip on another mask and melt away to find another unfortunate. I walk away leaving chaos and destruction in my wake but I never look over my shoulder.
Should you fear me? Absolutely. Sadly, for you, you don’t know what to look for because I do not come into your life bearing a warning. Once I have emotionally slain you, only then might you recognise the danger a second time but of course, by that point the damage is done. Amazingly, some of you come back for more. Incredible isn’t it? Sometimes it is with me or sometimes with another of my kind. The effect is the same however. Another excruciating death.
The beauty of all of this is that nobody can touch me. Those who might try to bring the sanction of criminal penalties against me usually fail. They either won’t do it because they still love me or that somehow they think they can save me and they would rather do that. There are others who are so broken they blame themselves and not me. Others again are so utterly destroyed they do not have the strength to take action. The very few that do not fall at these hurdles soon realise that my innate charm, my myriad of lies and irresistible powers of persuasion mean that actually getting the criminal law to apply to me is nigh on impossible. It is only right. The rules are not meant for me.
All of this means that next to nobody recognises my kind when we first choose you. Why would you? We bear no mark or label. We do not appear as some stereotype. We do not look like abusers but then what do abusers look like? They look like me. Him. Her. That man sat across from you on the train in his suit reading a quality broadsheet. The headmistress who crochets around the clock and is a committed Christian. The abuser looks like the construction worker downing his gallon of beer before weaving his way home. He looks like the quiet neighbour. The shy teenager. The earnest music teacher. The gregarious uncle. Him. Her. Them. You do not see us coming. You had no chance. Society repeatedly fails to identify what we are and how we operate. It downplays what we do with a host of euphemisms and woolly descriptions because people cannot accept that somebody who is so pleasant to them can then be so horrible too. Yet, that is precisely how we operate. Would you trust someone who punched you in the face when they first me you? Of course not. You’d trust him after three years of marriage before the first blow landed though wouldn’t you? You would not trust the fraudster if he stole ten thousand pounds on his first day at work, but after five years of solid and loyal service you would not think twice that he was forging signatures and diverting funds to his personal bank account. Society and people are too ready to apply labels which diminish the impact of what we do and what we are. You can attest to the horrendous damage that we do, you know better than anybody else of the impact that we have and yet you have to listen to people talking about how he is “misunderstood”, “under pressure”, “not normally like that”, “must have been provoked”. These well-intentioned people cause considerable damage as the ignorant apologists for the carnage we unleash.
Now you know what we are, you can identify us with ease. You can now think back to all the people you have interacted with and now you see us as if we have been daubed in bright red paint. Your colleague at work. The “difficult” customer. Your mother. Your brother. That friend who upset you one week and then fawned over you the next. The lovers. The celebrities. The politicians. More and more of us are identified by you and yet still we are able to do what we want and move on to the next unsuspecting victim. Society does not identify us. Society does not understand what we are. Society is utterly ineffective in tackling us. Our numbers are growing and our devastating impact on the lives of all those we entangle (and it is never just the one person is it) grows but what is being done? Do the politicians know us (save when they look in the mirror)? Do the police officers understand what we are? The nurses? The social workers? The judges? The court appointed psychiatrist? The jury? The neighbours? The teachers? The local government officials? All those who might be able to do something to address what we are rarely know what we are leading to greater frustration for you and the continued advancement of our agendas.
Nobody is stopping us.
What are you going to do about it?
80 thoughts on “The March of the LoveFrauds”
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HG it’s amazing the way I am spotting grandiosity, word salad and blame Shifting and tons of triangulation
I’m seeing these behaviours in high definition now. Before I would get an off feeling or be blind sided now I can pinpoint each behaviour and just see it .
It’s worrying what I’m dealing with .My problem is how do you carry out a counter move .
This is not a GOSO situation at all .
Kiki❤️
This is why my mom is the best mother in the universe… she always told me… “no matter who it is, where they come from, or how well I know them… if you tell me they are hurting you, I will believe you”
She saw through my narc immediately. Immediately. I obviously needed more time as I had been struck by love bombing.
Most people want to push problems under the rug… send them away… not my mom. I had permission to kick anyone to the curb when needed with 100% support.
Unconditional love exists HG. I’m so sorry your kind will never know it.
Empath007
I’m glad that you had such a treasure of a mother. How lovely to feel safe and supported. That’s the foundation of love. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.
empath007, Thank you for sharing to us about your mom. I want to endeavor to be like that to my kids.💕
What will I do about it? I will seize the power. I will no longer label, but look and listen carefully instead.
What I won’t do is look for “love” or for someone to save or rescue me. Been there and only ended up saving myself in the end, thanks to the assistance of HG.
By the way, “the man in a dirty raincoat with unkempt hair that hangs around the children’s playground” is Aqualung.
Quote Of The Day: [`Eventually I ended up here, and now I finally feel like a weight has been lifted. I still live with the pain, grief and trauma every day, but now that I understand what really happened, I can begin to heal.`] ~~kaydiva3
Exactly, all of this. What we experience is brutal soul torture and murder. And perhaps the worst part is that no one understands, even those closest to us and those who are supposed to help us heal.
I’m a social worker and lack of awareness is a huge problem, even in my field. In our degree programs we are taught that NPD and psychopathy are rarer than they are, and that we are only likely to see such things in prison/forensic populations. That is so inaccurate it’s laughable. We are also trained to see all sides of an issue, which most of the time is a positive thing, but it is absolutely catastrophic when working with narcissistic abuse. Couples therapy is one of the worst things you can do in a relationship with a narc. I myself have been invalidated by uninformed therapists. After my narc discarded me and I was so broken I was suicidal, my therapist at the time said “that’s so sad, it was the first time you’ve been in love and it was so short lived”, “it’s just hard to get over because you really loved him”, “maybe he just thought you’re something you’re not. You’ll find someone else.”, and “maybe he’s just depressed”. My narc ex also had Bipolar disorder (or so he claimed), so she was attributing his behavior to that. Every fiber of my being was screaming. As a mental health professional I know that Bipolar disorder does not cause lack of empathy and inability to love, and attributing abusive and sadistic behavior to that diagnosis is insulting to people who live with it.
I have since found a new therapist who is educated on personality disorders and psychological abuse. She is actually the one who first suggested that my ex was a narcissist. Eventually I ended up here, and now I finally feel like a weight has been lifted. I still live with the pain, grief and trauma every day, but now that I understand what really happened, I can begin to heal. I am so passionate about spreading this knowledge. I have shared HG’s work with others who I know have also been touched by these monsters. Hopefully they can begin the healing process faster with the correct information. My goal is to develop a training that I can present at conferences for psychologists, counselors, social workers and other mental health professionals. I encourage anyone else here who is in my field to do this as well. This absolutely needs to change.
Thank you for sharing my work.
kaydiva3,
You’re so right about lack of awareness being a huge problem in your field.
I look back on all the journal writing I did in the first few years with my Narcx. During those years, I had a female therapist who often sided with the Narcx, who believed that it was I who was self-sabotaging and sabotaging my relationship. I recently reread one of my journal entries that I had written after a huge argument and a long silent treatment by the Narcx, when I was ready to just forget the whole thing–my then therapist said, “Don’t you want to fight for your relationship?” UGH! I look back on that and at the times Narcx tried to influence my therapy sessions, sometimes by writing emails to me (after other fights we had) and suggesting that I share his side with my therapist–and I become so angry at the time and energy I wasted in that therapist’s office. If only HG had been writing back then.
Anyway, it took a male therapist (who admitted that he himself has a tendency to be narcissistic) to suggest to me that my Narcx is a narcissist. That same day I came home and searched the internet for a book or books that I could read about this disorder. I found an interesting book on amazon, then read the reviews, and in one review I read that “narcsite.com has better information than this book.” And here I am, very far along in my healing process.
I wish you much success in spreading this knowledge. I believe it is truly life- and soul-saving.
lisk I am so sorry that happened to you with your first therapist. That is awful and I know how soul crushing it is when you don’t get validation from those who are supposed to be helping you. I’m glad you trusted your instincts and kept seeking the truth, and that you are here now. I wonder if your second therapist had read HG’s work?
HG, do you have a degree in psychology or a related field? If not, would you ever consider getting one? Not that you need it, just asking because I feel your work is better and more accessible than Sam Vaknin’s, for example. Yet his work is referenced more frequently in the professional literature because he has the credentials.
I do not have such a degree, although I am a postgraduate. I have considered attaining a psychology degree.
His work may be referenced more frequently in professional literature but that may well change and of course that does not mean it necessarily helps, but I understand the spirit of your point Kaydiva3, thank you.
HG, RE: the psychology degree, you’d pass that with flying colours with little to learn because you already know a great deal 🙂
For me, excellent article. The Narc targeted me on Facebook at least 2 yrs (that I know of) before luring me in. Knew everything about me, under the guise of how much we had in common.
As you say, ordinary guy. Nothing would stand out. Goes to work, keeps to himself, stays out of trouble But has a secret life as an internet predator, YouTube artist, multiple names, etc.
And full time Narc managing and juggling supply.
They come out of nowhere.
Cogra: Have you read HG Tudor`s book: Sitting Target? I predict it would be a delicious read for you. I bet you would say, Amen, all throughout the book. I will say no more, in case you have not read it yet.
HG I know for a fact if I was to dabble in this with my students I would be hauled before the Principal in no time.
I can understand why?
Youngsters even teenagers don’t have the maturity to deal with this .
Also some could run with the idea then exclusion bullying could occur .
You would end up with a lot of taunting and possibly name calling that is unjustified.
I adore this blog your teachings but respectfully I don’t know how it could be safely taught in a school setting without misconceptions and possibly negative impacts .
Dearest HG and Kiki: It definitely could be taught to youngsters and teenagers. The word Narcissist does not have to be used, nor the technical terms, rather the various behaviours can be described and discussed. Perhaps, the dynamic could be taught as unacceptable or abusive behavior, and how to handle it, just the same way we adults are learning to handle it. The behavior could be discussed with examples and with role play and even with skits. For example, skits could first be performed for the youths demonstrating the behaviours of the Silent Treatment. Gaslighting, Lovebombing, Ghosting, Scapegoating, The Golden Child, The Scapegoat, Triangulation and Hoovering, and devaluation, etc, and then how to best respond could be shown to the young students to enlighten the young students. For example, during a skit demonstrating the Silent Treatment, students could be coached to ask a person once about a particular form of Silent Treatment, and how to ask about it, and then advised to not ask the person about it anymore etc., just like we grown ups are being taught how to respond with perhaps just one question to the person that is performing the Silent Treatment, and then to move on. The young are dealing with Narcissism every day, they just do not know what to call it, and they do not know why their friends and family are so upsetting to them, and largely no one is helping the youths understand and fight back against and defends themselves against all this intricate and detrimental behaviour that they face with family and friends. I never was taught anything about such behaviours and how to handle it growing up: we basically just came home and hid in our rooms, from both friends and family, if possible. Youths` many friends and acquaintances pick them up and down and shelve them with no explanation, and hoover them and smear them, and triangulate them, and stop speaking to them, and block them on social media, after first lovebombing them, and then ghosting them, and then showing up with new friends practically overnight, as if they never existed, and then returning to them later as if nothing ever happened, etc, etc. etc. Some are the victim of being either the scapegoat or the golden child in their families, and many youths break psychologically from the pressure of both designations, and some are bullied by such outside gangs or cliques, as well. Just the same way we adults are victims of Narc gangs or cabals in the workplace or other social communities. Many youths want to run away or commit suicide over all this painful behaviour that they are suffering. Because the young and teenagers are even more confused about all this than we adults are, and this behavior has brought many an adult to our very knees. How much more painful and debilitating this odd behaviour can affect the tender and developing minds and emotions of the youth. They are essentially dealing with all this without the maturity to handle it and without the substantive guidance to lead them. It is a veritable silent epidemic within society.
I totally agree PSE
It’s just such a difficult one to do.
I think a teacher must be fully tutored though , lots of teachers could botch it up big time and it would not be their fault.
This isn’t my area of teaching it would be classes based on self development and wellness. .teachers involved would not have enough grasp of NPD and these behaviours to do a worthy job.
I think professional psychologists are the only ones that could do this but the government won’t pay for this .
However it’s horrifying to see in my job that a lot of the care work is given to teachers and we are not fully qualified to deal with this.
Kiki
Of course HG you are better than any psychologist but I think your audience is much more adult 😊
Kiki ❤️
Kiki: Definitely. It definitely could be done in the schools, but actually society is glorifying and rewarding unacceptable behaviour that the young are witnessing daily. Youth are very observant. Many youth are depressed because they are pushed to obtain short term rewards rather than long term rewards, also, via the social media idols. Therefore, Greed is Good! Yes, says the Mean Girls! And as far as the schools are concerned, whatever is considered `extra curricular studies` is actually being cut more and more from school programs, even sports programs that do teach more positive social behaviour such as stress management, teamwork, and sportsmanship, etc. are being cut at an alarming rate. I am a Major League Baseball enthusiast in the U.S. and the U.S. scouts are saying nothing stellar is coming up through the pipelines from the youth in the U.S. because of the dwindling sports programs in the schools, and now the move is to find young upcoming players outside of the United States through international youth scouting, for quality. So sad. Now it is every child for himself in the school systems in the U.S. Including all the emphasis on standardized testing that pits students all against each other. And even worse, kills the natural curiosity and desire to innovate that is native to young people. The schools are the breeding ground for a lot of detrimental behaviour and in many ways, the schools are practically dead (according to my worldview). I think that more lively children and youth books would be a good start to help them, as well as movies/film geared towards certain age groups: and also other ways have to be found that are outside of the box, so to speak, in the United States. And the U.S. is important because what happens here travels and affects the entire planet, long-term.
More importantly, Kiki, a teacher must be fully Tudored. 😉
I totally agree, PSE.
While my mother taught me to watch out for certain types of men and their behaviors, I never learned about Triangulation and Silent Treatments and that they are forms of abuse.
Teach your children well.
Should awareness of NPD stay in the realm of adults only ? Who can cope with the darkness of it ?
Kiki
Kiki
I feel there are ways to explain it to children. My daughter has had some interactions with a couple extremely toxic little girls. One would make her cry, guilt trip her, give her silent treatments, cause her to beg for attention, blame shift, gas light, then golden period all over again. My happy 9 year old was stressed and anxious. When I found out about this I almost lost my mind. I sat down and explained to her that some people are so lacking and powerless on the inside, that they need to manipulate others’ emotions in order to feel powerful or important. She was actually able to understand the toxicity of this friendship and swiftly began her “escape.” I didn’t recognize it as narcissism at the time and maybe it wasn’t. But it WAS unhealthy. It was a hard lesson and three years later we still talk about this characteristic in people, because there are so many others that she will likely encounter for the rest of her life.
This interests me do we teach empaths to recognise NPD and run .
This may work with grown adults but not youngsters.
That is a very difficult thing to do and in a school setting with young people it would amount to exclusion of certain types.
That is something I personally abhor.
I have seen youngsters traumatised by exclusion bullying.
It is a very difficult one
Kiki❤️
Hg Do you think a child /teenager with NPD could be helped in schools etc would they simply run rings around everyone and not feel any need to change because in their mind they are right .
One has to be careful to conclude that a child has NPD, but where such a conclusion is soundly arrived at then they cannot be helped because the narcissism has cemented at the point it has become NPD. If the narcissism is in development, it can be arrested, but of course one has to spot that during its “growth” before it becomes too late and that is difficult.
HG,
“If the narcissism is in development, it can be arrested, but of course one has to spot that during its “growth” before it becomes too late and that is difficult.”
Do you truly believe that the development of NPD can be arrested – if caught at the right moment?
Yes but it usually happens by accident rather than design, that is how certain empaths originate.
Thank-you, this is so interesting.
“…that is how certain empaths originate.”
Codependent empaths?
Yes.
Thank-you HG.
It is interesting to contemplate that an individual on their way to becoming a narcissist, has this trajectory interrupted and then develops as individual with almost zero narcissistic traits. One would think that the natural progression would result in a super Empath, with some narcissist traits having a toehold.
The process can create co-dependent and super empaths. The trajectory as explained in Chained deals with co-dependents.
Thank-you for clarifying.
And I need to reread Chained.
You are welcome.
Hello WC, Just an opinion, but having N and CoD parents, I would suggest that CoD’s do have narcissistic traits. Both have core shame. Both have a lack of boundaries. Both use control to cope. Both lack healthy boundaries and cross boundaries. They diverge at a critical point, however, where emotional empathy is concerned. They are also divergent with regard to approval seeking. In a relationship, the two are enmeshed, but have very different roles.
A CoD will violate their own values to accommodate a N. A CoD will violate another’s boundaries/privacy to serve their need for control (to allay fear or promote enmeshment versus for fuel seeking). A CoD will halt their empathy if necessary to remain enmeshed, as the CoD puts their own perceived needs before the well being of others (such as children). One might argue these are narcissistic traits (though perceived by the CoD as necessary for the survival of self). Even though this may appear at times as self-less or acquiescence, they are also serving their own needs.
The key difference that I see in the CoDs I know are, at their core, they are loving and seek love and acceptance and a sense of self, they simply use unhealthy means to obtain/maintain what they need. The N’s I know do not love or seek love, they seek fuel and absolute control to maintain their defense and the cycle repeats.
The difference I see between CoD and Super Empath is, a SE has a strong sense of self and lacks core shame. The SE takes a different coping approach. Instead of accommodation and rejection of self, the SE stands strong and will not abide by anything they perceive as unjust, whether for self or others. The SE is afforded a sense of certainty and strength, where the CoD is less certain and more self-loathing. SE’s have strong emotional empathy, but their N traits can easily come to the fore when necessary. SE’s will go a long distance for those they love or believe in, but they do not abide by bad behavior and will not remain past their point of absolute values. They leave (with or without a supernova). CoDs and Yes can be blind to how their orientations can be received by others, but this is true of all people in general. No empath is truly an angel and we all have our strengths and weakness.
WC, I respect and would appreciate your thoughts. HG, if I am incorrect in anything I have stated, please do correct me. I passionately seek accuracy and truth and I mean no disrespect to anyone.
Sorry, auto correct changed SEs into Yes at the end of the 4th paragraph. It also wanted to change SEs into sesames.
Empaths and Normals have all the emotions a narcissist has plus more. Being narcissistic isn’t about being strong or successful, it’s about grandiosity, manipulation, changing the truth, future faking, getting attention, being the center of everyone’s thoughts, and having no empathy. I can see a codependent being a step short of a narcissist as their identity relies on a narc. But I don’t see a super empath as narcissistic. I see them as level headed enough for insults to roll off their backs, self sufficient- doesn’t need attention, emotionally guided, stands up against wrong, empathetic characteristics that are the opposite of a narc, how’re they almost a narcissist? Because they’re not afraid of a narc? If anything, I see them as closer to a normal.
kel2day,
Re: super empaths
“…how’re they almost a narcissist?”
Super empaths are not almost a narcissist but they possess some narcissistic traits.
Hi WC, what narcissistic traits do super empaths share?
kel2day,
I don’t know; as I am not sure that I, personally, know any super empaths (maybe one) and I suspect that it depends on the individual Empath. However, off the top off my head… envy, pride, vanity, jealousy? But, apparently, these would be tempered by empathic traits.
A good example of this is Valentine in Poldark (Ross Poldark’s extra marital son). I dont know if you have watched Poldark but he showed all the signs of oncoming NPD behaviour due to his neglect.
Thanks for the spoiler! I’m watching Poldark with the Shieldmaiden and we are nearing the end of the second series. I will suck this up though and not tell SM about it to avoid spoiling her viewing!
It’s not a massive spoiler really, just from reading your works, my Narc detector radar is working overtime😂😂😂Enjoy the rest of Poldark, it’s excellent viewing right up until the end. I have a massive Poldark shaped hole in my life now.
Yes I agree but there is a problem.
In the case of Autism there are structured ways of working with these children to help them reach their potential either socially or academically.
NPD is a totally different beast.
No one wants to say this child has NPD therefore we can work to do X Y and Z to help.Can it even be helped HG says no.
What do we do ??
Kiki❤️
Yes Kiki, that is why I said the promotion of narcissism would need to be different to Autism – narcissism is a different disorder which as stated cannot be diagnosed in the early years.
The point I make about Autism is simply that it has been a success story re: promoting interest and understanding in Australia through mainstream media. In order to make narcissism a success story within mainstream media we need to find its own niche appeal which will not be parents (as in the case of Autism) as it is not diagnosed in childhood.
I hope this makes sense!
Engaged in 6 months married in 8 months pregnant immediately! Snagged me for sure ! I feel trapped still Married too long without noticing. How can I have been so blind. I guess I was young and stupid.
I saw your a Virgo H.G. so he is .scary
Thanks again wonderful article.
Kiki & Sarah,
I’ve been reading the comments after this article with great interest. I agree with you both about the following:
– narcissism in society is directly related to systemic outcomes that are damaging, and it definitely requires more public knowledge and awareness; and
– narcissism is a difficult subject to explain and inform the general public about because it’s not easy for many people to ‘grasp’ logically and there is also limited incentive to speak about it openly.
In my experience, speaking openly about the ‘personality disorder’ aspect of narcissism is limiting, because it immediately conjures a mental health topic which carries with it a stigma and therefore a reluctance by the ‘average’ person to relate to it or contemplate that it may have relevance in their own life (even though it does).
When it comes to a topic that is not well understood and can readily shame and stigmatise, most people would rather steer clear of it. Therefore it becomes difficult to achieve even a window of opportunity in order for the ‘average person’ to consider that it has relevance for them.
One way to combat this reluctance may be to speak about ‘narcissistic’ behaviours – that are relevant to all people – rather than ‘narcissism’ which is relevant to those with the disorder.
There is nothing inherently stigmatising or ‘shameful’ about having ‘narcissistic’ characteristics. In fact, they are part of every human being’s personality and are necessary for survival.
It is when ‘narcissistic’ behaviours are not recognised as being harmful or unjust or unwanted, and when the ‘average’ person can’t ‘see’ or recognise their own options that it can become damaging.
This could be a more ‘general’ way of speaking about ‘human behaviour’ rather than a ‘disorder’ or ‘evil’ behaviour.
If the average person could recognise they had the choice of behaving in either a narcissistic or altruistic way and how these different behaviours can lead to real and practical personal consequences, then the ‘average person’ may take more notice of how ‘narcissism’ can relate directly to themselves.
I agree that HG’s categorisations and labels are very valuable and they open the discussion up greatly in being able to see and speak about narcissism in a logical way.
There is a problem with introducing this ‘logic’ to the mainstream public though, because ironically, the ‘logic’ stirs up ’emotional’ reactions.
If there was some kind of ‘bridge’ that enabled the ‘mainstream’ public to walk across from their ’emotional’ reactions of fear and apprehension due to the stigma of a ‘personality disorder’ to the more relatable fundamental concept of ‘normal’ human behaviours and reactions, perhaps narcissism would be a subject that’s easier to explain and less emotionally volatile.
Well stated.
Thank you HG.
Hi WN,
Thank you so much for so many detailed comments and considerations to add to our discussion!
I agree that a focus around narcissistic behaviours is less stigmatising than the disorder. There is also the notion of reverse stigma though e.g., people love high impact stories as long as they don’t believe it applies to them. The media often resort to sensationalising things to appeal to a broader audience e.g., the multiple documentaries on psychopathic killers. Sometimes if it is not sensational it will not have the appeal.
I also think that in garnering attention the IMPACT of the behaviours is the most critical part of the communication to a broader audience. The impact of these behaviours will quickly capture the attention of others e.g., sexually transmitted debt or diseases. Case studies would work well in this regard. Concerns like these are universal and could happen to anyone which will open up a level of vulnerability in most of us and lead to more meaningful reflection.
I am not sure that the ‘average joe’ would recognise and understand the complexities of many narcissistic behaviours e.g., gaslighting, word salads. A focus on the impact of behaviour would perhaps be more likely to change the wider perception of narcissism as being a person with a large ego who takes selfies repeatedly and posts them on multiple social media outlets. This perception and focus is a barrier to change.
Great discussions and debates on narcsite today – I have thoroughly enjoyed reading through and considering all of the commentary. As always WN you provide such well thought out and written comments and contributions, so thank you!
Hi Sarah,
You’re welcome, and thank you also for your reply and your kind words.
I agree with you that the discussions on this thread are interesting and it’s great to share our ideas. This is one of the aspects of narcsite I find very valuable and enjoyable, both personally, as a way to better understand my own thoughts, and on a social level, as a way to spread the awareness.
I think the point you raise about the media resorting to sensationalising topics in order to appeal to the wider public is interesting. It’s a catch-22 when you think about it. In order to generate attention and interest, the topic is presented in a sensational way, which tends to result in the ‘average joe’ believing the topic is not very relevant to everyday life or to their own ‘ordinary’ situation.
This is exacerbated by the sheer abundance of information people deal with these days and the shortened attention spans this has created.
To truly understand the subject of narcissism, I think it takes time and deeper contemplation and a variety of information sources. Even many psychologists who study the subject and have more scientific and empirical information at their fingertips, do not accurately understand it. It is not something you can ‘understand’ after reading one article or listening to a couple of YouTube videos.
I think the ‘best’ way to truly understand it, sadly, is to suffer at the hands of a narcissist, and then to go searching for answers. I know this isn’t ideal, but it does bring understanding.
Thanks again Sarah, for your comments in this thread and for the interesting discussion.
There is an issue with gaining the interest re: NPD from “normals”, the mainstream neuro-topicals going about their business unimpaired by experiences shared here. We live in a world where most decisions by our politicians and policy-makers are part of a giant popularity contest. In order to secure office, politicians, councillors etc must appeal to the majority of civilians aka a mainstream audience. When it comes to the realm of narcissism, this isn’t easy,
I have tried on HG’s behalf to secure a spot on radio with an Australian audience. HG’s work is exceptional and it is unfathomable to me how it would not be picked up even as a human interest story. Unfortunately narcissism like many words that are overused in the wrong context lose the attention of the “normal” people out there. I have not been able to secure his spot yet, but I will keep trying. If the media were to report more readily on the psychological profile of our most serious offenders and narcissism was used in this context, the normals may begin to wise up. Psychopathy has a higher profile and despite similarities between NPD and psychopathy most people do not connect the dots. People see psychopaths as dangerous and narcissists as spoilt, entitled brats which we all know is not even the half of it.
In Australia, Autism Spectrum Disorders have received so much press and there is now a strong level of interest and awareness of this disorder. The critical thing here though is that ASD can be diagnosed in children – the majority of parents are interested in their own offspring and therefore Autism has found an audience ready and willing to engage. Unfortunately, narcissism is not diagnosable in the early years and the same formula will not apply.
The steps taken by HG to classify narcissists and empaths is so critical as he is 100% right that people need to apply labels and categories to something in order to develop a better understanding of it. It will take recognition of these categories e.g., empaths and their specific vulnerabilities and susceptibilities to develop the understanding of harm caused by NPD within society at large. People need to make it relevant to their own experiences in order to give it the attention it deserves. Most normals will have empathic people in their life they care about and if the content re: sitting targets for narcissists resonates within their inner circle they will sit up and take note.
Readers and commentators come and go from narcsite. I have often seen comments from people stating they feel it is their time to leave as they no longer want to be consumed by narcissism or they feel they are reading too much material. I am in it for the long haul and it is no longer because I need to read the content to contain my emotional thinking or ensure I resist a Hoover. I am here because I have something to contribute to the broader debate around narcissism which I have said before I see as a public health issue. I am here because to walk away once my own needs have been met and to ignore the damage being done at a systemic level in our society is unconscionable to me.
HG is a pioneer and his work and narratives have the potential to appeal to a broad audience, to increase understanding and to promote interest in a subject which has a huge impact on all of us. Once we finish our own battle, it is important for us to make good use of our knowledge and gratitude and actively promote HG’s work to the mainstream media.
HG mightily approves.
Thank you for your efforts in this regard. What you are also up against are my kind who do not realise what they are and therefore do not like being told (although you are suggesting) what to cover.
HG, I very much appreciate the use of the word “mightily” before approves.
Yes, excellent point – those of your kind who exist without knowledge or acceptance of what they are present somewhat of a steeple chase in our race to mainstream the impacts of narcissism across media channels. It will take an army, but you have one and we’ve got this!
HG are you open to phone interviews w any media source we can secure for you?
I am open to the offers, yes.
An outstanding comment Sarah.
I agree with all you have written.
Thank you for taking the time to express and share your thoughts.
Much appreciated Tappi, thank you.
Sarah
You are amazing! Everything you have said is 100% spot on. It kills me that mainstream society throws the term “narcissism” around so flippantly, making it that much harder to educate people on what the disorder actually is. Even when trying to educate a victim! When I first came to this site, almost a year ago, it seemed a dark and desolate place. But now I feel HGs reach has expanded – more blog hits, more interviews, the Spotify placement… maybe it’s my personal exposure to the knowledge that has expanded…I don’t know. But I feel positive that HG is going to have a mainstream impact and it’s not so far away.
Thank you Joanne, I agree with your observations with regard to HG’s work. Like any movement, we need to keep building momentum until the broader audience take notice but we are on our way!
Sarah
Standing applause for your comment and in giving back. We do have to get right with ourselves first to prevent future ensnarement, but for global recognition you need the very best information delivered first hand (HG has that well covered) delivered by those who can attest to not only the behaviours and experiences but also the effectiveness of his work. We can’t leave that to the normals or the narcissists, so it is contingent upon empaths. People speculate all the time about HG’s initials. My hope is that one day soon they stand for Heralded Globally on the subject of narcissism. Lets keep spreading the word empaths – it’s how we can use our gift to help change the world.
A great and auspicious declaration NA, HG approves.
Here, here NA and thank you very much.
I once worked in local government quickly realising the frustration of there being no local solutions to the issues that plagued our community, only global ones. First we help ourselves but once we have self actualised we should help others.
Most challenges create opportunities which can be shared equally among those who are willing. HG is a wonderful example of this as we know he is a narcissist, however he is educating, helping and even inspiring others with his experience and expertise and he has still (despite his diagnosis) built a foundation of trust in his work and knowledge on narcissism which underlies all relationships that endure.
When we engage on a medium like narcsite, we exchange ideas to develop, serve and support each other. Helping one another builds trust between us also. These connections become vital to our recovery as we lean in for support and advice when we need it. This place can hold us steady with understanding and stability of messaging and available support.
When I arrived here NA I quickly developed an interest in your commentary and commitment to holding up the mirror for others. If I was short on time I would read HG’s comments and your comments. Thank you for your contribution to where I am now, for your wit and for being so sharp and in tune with each of us.
HG – Heralded Globally
NA – Notoriously Amazing
Sarah
You are too kind. I only hold the mirror up to others so they can see their own strength reflected back at them. Sometimes they don’t recognize or believe it straight away, but I believe if you hold it long enough they eventually will. I want everyone to see amazing in that mirror.
Sarah,
I admire your efforts and I do believe that HG’s work is extremely important.
However, one problem in getting this across to the “masses” is that if one has not been pretty much devastated by narcissism, it is difficult to understand what narcissism really is and just how damaging it can be. And even if one has is in the midst of a relationship with a narcissist, if a disengagement has not occurred, it is difficult to let go of that hope that things will be better again, that the Golden Period will return.
I remember when Narcx had given me a particularly cruel silent treatment and semi-discard, that I looked up “silent treatment” and read that that is something narcissists do. I moved on from that page because I didn’t consider him to be a narcissist. I did learn that it was a form of control and manipulation, but never looked further into it.
I have often said in my comments that if I had not been cruelly discarded by my Narcx this last time (this was the 3rd discard but it was nastier than ever before) and also found the right therapist I would have never sought this information. Hell, about a month before I found HG, I was searching sites that were advising me about “How to Use No Contact to Get Your Ex Back.” Yikes!
Sarah
kudos for trying to get HG a spot on Australian radio and with regards to wanting to contribute to a broader debate instead of just using his work for ones own gain, I wholeheartedly agree. I remember watching a debate on german national television about what they described to be a “narcissism epidemic”. Whlie I suppose that’s better than not talking about this topic at all, I was really annoyed with the way this discussion was framed as well as their general lack of knowledge. Also, there where at least two (unknowing) narcissists sitting in that exact debate, one of them being the moderator. Having HGs input would be a godsend and likely revolutionize the germanophone debates for the best.I also think using the knowledge in “Sitting Target” would make the topic much more relevant and accesible to normals as well, since they would realize that while they themselves might be less susceptible, their friends and family could very well be targeted. As opposed to Australia, there certainly is a language barrier here in Germany, but that hasn’t stopped far inferior authors on the topic from crossing our borders. HGs work deserves to be in the mainstream media all over the world and if we all spread the word together, I’m certain it can be done.
Hello Sarah, If you want to appeal to the media, do so from their perspective. Know what they cover and why. Look at their editorial/production calendar and choose your timing carefully. Use email to make your pitch as this is preferred. Communicate a well-formed, unique angle/story (in essence create the piece for them whether this be audio, visual or print). Use as many substantiated facts/figures that you can in your pitch.
Media get impassioned requests all the time. They become tone deaf whether they are narcissists or not. If you create something compelling, that works for them, I guarantee they will seize the opportunity to create a relevant piece/segment and will likely come back for more. I appreciate your passion, Sarah, and applaud your efforts and wish you the very best as you continue.
Sound advice as always FYC.
Thank you, HG.
“People are stupid.”
Yes. Thank you for saying it, HG.
Ha! Hear hear !
This has to be one of the most honest truthful articles you have ever posted, and yet some will read this and never apply it to you HG. I mean no disrespect in saying these things at all! I’m saying them to prove a point, even knowing what you write is the truth and that you are actually writing about yourself and what you are, how many will read this and not once in there mind will they think he is talking about himself, how many will read my comment and say, no she is wrong not HG, he is not like that, he is kind, intelligent, and trying to help us out of the goodness of his soul. This is why it is so hard to see the truth when it is right in front of you, the truth is that you and others like you are just that good at hiding what you truly are, and some don’t even know what they are. HG thank you for all that you do and the knowledge that you give us. I will keep that knowledge with me always. 💞
Have a good week everyone! Stay safe! 🙃
I absolutely agree. I fully understand the extremities of the situation with an NPD type and I know all too well just what one of such nature is capable of. Indeed HG is talking about himself and in doing so, he knows that even so, nothing will or can be done about it. That’s why he can so boldly write such things and still accumulate admiration from so many without even a blink of an eyes moment. Still though, even still, if nothing at all, we can take the knowledge that he’s boldly and unashamedly displayed before us, and use it for our own good. This is what I believe his intentions to be in partial,even if denied before us. Or even if I am wrong, it’s still information that can be useful to someone with enough wits to capture and grasp tightly for self sake. Information is knowledge!. Thanks HG! I enjoy reading your thoughts.
You are welcome. It is all about the provision of information.
HG Tudor`s work is also an offering of his inner thoughts and reflections and observations and experiences, that many people gladly keep hidden from others, that he brings steadfastly to the light of the outer world to understand, as a Behavioral Genius. Secrets of this Dynamic. HG is also an Artist in his delivery, and like all great Artists, he is bold, and courageous, and he sacrifices a part of himself and his deepest inner privacy, to bring his work forth into posterity, also by forfeiting the fame to his pubic name in his case, so that for his greater legacy he can remain forthright, candid, upfront, unflinching and accessible in the field, about this very complex and important and disturbing and intricate topic.
So well said PSE.
I agree with Tappi- that was so well said PSE.
Behavioral Genius is perfect.
FM1T,
You’ve really come a very long way in your battle against ET since our first interactions here on KTN, a few months ago. Getting bit nostalgic now 🙂…
Enjoy your well deserved holiday!
Oh Abe!
You are the last for me to talk to before I unplug! See you in a week my sentimental friend!!! 😘💞