The Narcissist Torments : Emotional Torment
The following is a report published on the BBC and written by Naomi Pallas. It is an important piece for two reasons :
1. A clear example of a narcissist manipulating other people for the purposes of asserting control and gaining fuel , and
2. The complete failure of the victims, the reporter, law enforcement and other interested parties to recognise what they are actually dealing with.
My observations and comment are in bold and italics.
When US couples want to adopt a baby they often post ads online and search social media for women pregnant with an unwanted child. Sometimes it works – but there are dangers. One young scammer has tricked countless couples, just for fun, by stealing the identity of a pregnant woman.
It’s early February 2019, half way through one of the coldest Michigan winters in recent history. The grey sky threatens snow.
Thirty-three-year-old Samantha Stewart is in her pyjamas at home in Wixom, just outside Detroit, doing Sunday morning chores. There’s a full washing basket, a house to be cleaned and dogs to walk. It’s just after 11:00 when she receives a direct message request on Instagram from @ashleymamabear2019.
It’s not anyone she knows – but she accepts the message and starts reading.
“Are you looking to adopt still?” are the opening words. (Red flag – very direct approach from a complete stranger. You may think well, they are trying to find a solution and using Instagram to achieve this, therefore they are going to receive responses from strangers. However, caution should have been exercised by approaching such a sensitive matter (see below) through the internet and its known hazards. A parallel to this is internet dating and I have made the position clear about this in the article Why You Should Not Use Online Dating .Note the absence of striking up conversation, framing the subject of adoption in a more acceptable manner, but instead the question is the opening remark, direct and demonstrates entitlement and a lack of boundary recognition.)
It’s six years since Sam had a hysterectomy. Throughout her 20s she underwent a series of operations in an attempt to control her endometriosis, a condition that causes the womb lining to grow in other parts of the body and can lead to crippling pain. They didn’t work. By the time she was 27 it had become clear she would have to lose her womb – and the chance of carrying a child.
It took time for Sam to recover from the stress and the heartache. Though she longed for a family, it was only at the end of last year that she and her husband, Dave, felt ready to contact an adoption agency and begin the laborious process of adopting a child. They passed their home study, an assessment of their suitability to be parents, and underwent training. Then they set up an Instagram account, @findingbabystewart, posting requests for birth parents to contact them, illustrated by an empty cot in a freshly painted nursery. (The victims exhibit empathy by wanting to adopt a child but are also walking into a hunting ground, namely the internet and specifically social media. The victims are vulnerable having experienced considerable stress and heartache and therefore a desire to combat these feelings means that vigilance and more importantly logic will be low).
Sam examines @ashleymamabear2019’s Instagram feed. Ashley is 16, from a small town outside Atlanta, Georgia.
She posts mirror photos, love notes to her boyfriend Chris, and selfies with Snapchat filters. Her hair is straight and honey-blonde and a backwards cap usually covers his. But there is one thing that sets them apart from thousands of other American teen couples – the occasional shots of Ashley’s figure, her face beaming as Chris places his hand against her swollen, round belly. This is the baby Ashley is making plans to give away. (There appears to plenty of evidence to support the fact that this is someone who is pregnant, but it comes from one source without independent corroboration. This is akin to accepting everything a narcissist tells you when you are speaking to a narcissist without checking elsewhere if these ´facts´are accurate. Of course, this is a common vulnerability for victims, the high level of trust exhibited as consequence of the empathic trait of Decency and how we corrupt the trait to ensnare.)
The women begin messaging, but not before Sam has called her husband, Dave, her parents and Dave’s parents in excitement. She doesn’t spend much time wondering why they look so happy about the pregnancy, bearing in mind that it is unwanted. They’re young, she thinks. (Note the corrupting emotional thinking which has caused a discrepancy and red flag to be missed in the clamour to alert others to this apparent happy and encouraging development).
“Are you guys talking to any other adoptive families?” ventures Sam. “I’m just scared of being hurt. I want to be a mom so badly.” (The empathic trait of Honesty appears and signals the victims vulnerability, the type of comment which our kind instinctively pick up on.)
“Nope,” comes the reply. (Likely to be a lie – the narcissist will be doing this to others.)
Minutes later, Sam shoots back: “I’m crying.” (The victim is metaphorically showing her throat to the narcissist and has walked into the Virtual Fuel Matrix of the Narcissist as a Non Intimate Secondary Source.)
Ashley’s life had been harrowing. Her parents were abusive, her mother killed herself. She was raped by her brother at the age of 14, resulting in a premature baby, a little girl who was given up for adoption. The adoptive parents shut Ashley out, preventing her from seeing her child. It would be hard to write a bleaker story. (All of this of course appeals to the empathic traits of Compassion, Strong Moral Compass and Decency which the emotional thinking will be hijacking and causing the victims to dispense with the application of logic.)
The contact is constant. (Akin to love-bombing. The narcissist has scented blood and the desire to exact control and gain fuel results in this repeated contact.)
Sometimes Chris takes over texting because Ashley is feeling sick. (Chris will not exist – this is the narcissist pretending to be the boyfriend).When they talk on the phone, Sam finds Ashley’s conversation immature, makes her excuses and hangs up after half an hour. They text about adoption plans late into the evening.
The temperature has now dropped to -5C, and a light snow is falling. Sam is exhausted from messaging. She explains that she’s heading out for dinner, and so won’t be on her phone for a few hours. She passes on her adoption agency’s details. (Sam is inadvertently asserting control through this act of passing on her adoption agency’s details. This wounds the narcissist.)
But then, suddenly, Ashley becomes abusive. (The narcissist must assert control and therefore applies a Corrective Devaluation through Provocation : Insult) She tells Sam she would be a bad parent. (No emotional empathy exhibited in making such a statement.) Shocked and hurt, Sam stops replying. The adrenaline that has kept her going all day suddenly drains away, and she crashes on to the sofa.
“It’s just – it’s devastating. There’s no other way to describe it,” she says later, remembering this moment.
Sam assumes she will never hear from Ashley again. She and Dave consider deleting their Instagram posts appealing for pregnant women to contact them. Sam begins to feel that adopting a baby will take a long, long time. (The withdrawal from the interaction has reduced emotional thinking to a degree which means that logic starts to apply and Sam and Dave apply logic, through potential no contact and consider (but fail to do it) deleting the Instagram posts.
Then, exactly a month later, as icy patches of ground are beginning to thaw, a message arrives. Ashley tells Sam the baby has been born early, at 31 weeks. (Electronic hoover – there was a Hoover Trigger and the Hoover Execution Critieria are met (mainly because the electronic conduit is open) so the narcissist hoovers. Exasperated, Sam tells Ashley to contact her adoption agency, or leave her family alone: “Have a nice life and don’t contact me.” (Logic is prevailing, there is an attempt to apply no contact but it is weak because the victim is trying to control the narcissist (which will not work) by saying contact the agency or leave me alone.
It only takes 14 messages, though, for Ashley to persuade Sam that there really is a premature baby waiting for adoption. (The attempt at no contact was weak and failed. The electronic conduit remained open, the hoovers continued because Sam will have kept replying thus providing fuel and signalling the could be controlled, thus the narcissist kept hoovering. This repeated involvement invoked The Devil´s Pitchfork and one spike of course is emotional thinking rising. Rise it did and therefore logic receded and Sam ends up persuaded that there is actually a baby. Again, nothing is done to verify this outside of what the narcissist is saying because Sam is being governed by emotional thinking).She names the medical centre where she gave birth and Sam and Dave get ready to fly there. Ashley sends a photograph of her cuddling a premature baby, wrapped in a white towel, wires trailing from the small body. It’s captioned, “She’s yours.”
“Omg I’m literally losing it. I can’t wait to meet her,” Sam replies. “I can’t wait to spoil that pretty little baby!”(Fuel)
There are three days of non-stop talking. Then Ashley blocks Sam on Instagram. When Sam calls, Ashley doesn’t pick up. (Lots of fuel and the narcissist has control. The narcissist also perceives that control will be lost when Sam and Dave fly to the medical centre as they will realise there is no baby, thus having achieved control and instinctively needing to maintain it, the narcissist seals the issue of control by blocking Sam.
There is no explanation, just silence.
Distressed, frantic, but already sensing that Ashley has been getting a thrill out of tormenting her, Sam posts a drawing of a broken heart on Instagram.
“They don’t ask for money, they don’t ask for material things like a lot of scams do. They want your time, emotional investment and quite frankly someone to talk to while promising you what you are desperate to find: your future child,” she writes in the caption.
“We need to talk about this.” (The narcissist will have seen this and gained fuel from this post. Sam is continuing to engage and thus her Emotional Thinking continues to be fed. If logic prevailed she would have not made this post at this time.)
The comments start coming in. Sam is not the only one whom Ashley has tricked.
In many countries, social media would be the last place anyone would look for a baby to adopt. In the US, though, most states allow something called private adoption, where couples hoping to adopt and birth mothers find each other independently. The arrangement is then formalised by an attorney or an adoption agency.
When Sam and Dave first signed up at their adoption agency, they were number 21 on the list of prospective adoptive parents. The agency warned them to expect a long wait and said they might get quicker results advertising themselves on the internet. (No good advice – well intentioned advice but placing vulnerable individuals into a hunting ground. The internet could be used but is a far safer manner and certainly not on social media.)
Pregnant women who don’t want to keep their child have the same choice – to approach adoption agencies, or search for adoptive parents online. Apparently, many feel that by making contact with parents directly they have more control.
At the time of writing, #hopingtoadopt is hashtagged 44,892 times on Instagram; #waitingtoadopt is mentioned 18,844 times and #hopefuladoptiveparents 10,758. Images of letter boards jostle for the attention of birth mothers: No Bump, Still Pumped, We’re Adopting; Share This Photo and Help Our Family Grow; We are Officially a Waiting Family. (A veritable hunting ground indeed of empathic victims.)
There aren’t enough babies to go round, though, so many of these thousands of hopeful parents will be disappointed. The problem has got worse since countries that once provided large numbers of babies for adoption, such as Russia, China and Guatemala, clamped down.
“Most countries have ceased to allow the adoption of their children internationally, so the raw numbers have plummeted over the last 10 to 15 years by huge margins,” says Adam Pertman, president of the National Centre on Adoption and Permanency.
Unplanned pregnancies have also become less common in the US – and the reduced stigma around single parenthood means that, when they do occur, the mothers are less likely to give the child away. The National Council for Adoption’s last survey estimates that less than 0.5% of babies are put up for adoption.
Couples hoping to adopt may already have spent years trying to conceive, and even if they haven’t, the long wait for a baby to become available for adoption can be frustrating and lead to impatience.
“Urgency creates desperation, and desperation creates sometimes decisions not being made with enough thought,” says adoption specialist Dawn Smith Pleiner. (Indeed.)
“Even though in the back of your head you know that it’s probably not real, there’s that glimmer, that feeling that there’s a 1% chance it could be,” says Sam. “And you go with it anyway.” (Such is the power of Emotional Thinking. If there is only a 1% chance of you achieving something would you do it applying logic. No you would not, but this comment encapsulates how logic flies out of the window and Emotional Thinking takes over).
The comments stack up under Sam’s broken-heart Instagram post. In Utah, Kristen and Michael Johnson have also been contacted by Ashley and Chris, though this time the teenagers from Georgia have used a different account. In Kentucky, Ashley Middleton and her husband Brian have received messages from this second account. Another woman says she has been contacted by both Instagram accounts. (It is most often women who are approached – two couples say that Ashley refused to speak to their male partner.) The photos all feature the same pregnant blonde-haired young woman from Georgia, offering up her child. (The ability of the internet to allow the narcissist to gain fuel and control from a multiplicity of NISS appliances with the fuel matrix with minimal effort but causing a maximum of distress and torment).
Kristen starts getting messages from Ashley on 14 March, the day after – unbeknown to her – Ashley has ghosted Sam. (The narcissist seamlessly moves on to the next victim, leaving hurt behind but of course with no sense of remorse, guilt or conscience, only the never-ending need for control and fuel, the narcissist marches on).
Over rambling, intense phone-calls, Ashley urges Kristen to visit her 31-week-old prematurely born baby. “One time, I talked to her for four hours. It’s a long time. I don’t even talk to my own mother for that long, ever,” says Kristen. (Red flag – monopolisation of time as the narcissist exerts control and gains fuel, but red flag is missed.)
Ashley hits the Johnsons at a particularly vulnerable moment.
They’ve been waiting two-and-a-half years to adopt one more child. “We were so tired and sick of trying to adopt, and wanting it to be done,” Kristen says. “We got highly emotional about it instead of thinking more rationally.”
Kristen books flights to Atlanta for $500. In the frantic scrum to find a babysitter, she realises that Ashley hasn’t sent any documents from the hospital. She rings to double check. It’s a brief phone call: the charge nurse tells her there is no 15-year-old called Ashley, no father called Chris – and no baby.
“My stomach just dropped and I was literally sick. We cried a lot. My husband cried,” she says.
“We couldn’t believe, after everything we had been through, that we still fell for it.” (Those of you reading this and having experienced narcissists will know precisely why they fell for it.)
There was a Facebook group where couples shared stories like this – the internet has made it easier to carry out a scam, but also harder to sustain one. The names used by many scammers all over the country are shared and circulated quickly. (The issue of sustainability is a red herring all that matters is the number of available targets and there are hundreds of thousands which means that the relevant narcissists will move from NISS to NISS to NISS. It does not matter how short the interaction is, all that matters is that fuel is provided and the narcissist can move to another NISS victim within the blink of an eye, which of course is what happened when the narcissist moved on from Sam to Kristen.)
Ashley, it turns out, uses a number of names and accounts: Alyssa and Josh, Ciara and Daniel, Mackenzie and Matt. Each couple’s story has familiar elements, either the same abusive parents, the mum lost to suicide or the connection to Georgia. Usually, it’s all three. Messages are incessant, phone calls come at strange times, and conversations drag out over hours. Sometimes the ruse lasts for a day, sometimes a few. It typically ends in tears. (The narcissist uses economy of effort because the manipulation always works, so why change it?)
Sam thinks the scammer’s real name is Melissa, because a couple of the fake Instagram accounts have tagged someone with this name. Melissa has square-framed glasses, tangled red hair, and looks as though she’s in her late 20s.
Kristen isn’t convinced. She has a hunch the scammer is a spiteful middle-aged woman. Both agree, though, that the perpetrator is probably based somewhere not far from Atlanta, because she knows the area so well.
Other victims have different theories. Some wonder if the scammer is in fact a group of people, because of the amount of time it must take to send so many messages – perhaps a group of anti-adoption activists, whose aim is to keep hopeful parents busy, to demoralise them and to hinder their search for real birth mothers.
(Their theorising misses the critical issue – they are dealing with a narcissist or narcissists.)
Juli Wisotsky, an adoption attorney based in Athens, Georgia, says she too has had her time wasted.
In March, an adoption agency from another state asked her to talk to a pregnant girl who had matched with one of their couples. Although Juli was about to go on a platinum wedding anniversary trip with her husband, she delayed it to talk. She and the 15-year-old exchanged messages through the night, as the girl claimed she was being admitted to hospital.
Despite her 23 years’ experience in the job, it took Juli nearly 24 hours to realise she was being conned. The final giveaway was an ultrasound image, stripped of all identifying details. (Again see the power of emotional thinking – an intelligent attorney whose field of specialism is adoption is similarly manipulated.)
“It’s partly my fault as I’m a very nurturing person. So I’m trying to nurture her and help her,” Juli says. (The self-flagellation of the empath, blaming oneself for being manipulated.)
And the same scammer has remained active.
Since March, Juli says, she and her colleagues have been called by families from Georgia, Colorado, Texas, Alaska, New York, Minnesota, Alabama, Illinois and Utah. All of the families were approached on Instagram by a young woman from Georgia. (The internet allows an extensive reach for this narcissist).
“The emotional scams took me – when I was younger – completely off-guard,” says Dawn Smith Pleiner, who has run the Vermont-based Friends in Adoption agency for nearly four decades.
Long before the arrival of the internet, women would call for “hour-long-talking-with-your-best-friend conversations”, she says, and it was “never ever to do with money – never.”
“Then you realise that the due date is long gone, and you’re still talking.” (A useful example of how a narcissist would obtain fuel in the pre-internet age.)
“There are so many lonely people out in this world today that just want some attention.” (Wrong. You are dealing with narcissists who seek fuel. This type of well-intentioned comment from someone in a position of authority exemplifies the problem and how hard it is to detect.)
It’s a scam that’s hard to prosecute. Most states still don’t have the legal tools. (Coupled with the fact that they have not actually identified what they are facing.)
Since September 2018 there have been laws in place in Georgia to stop financial adoption fraud, but not the emotional kind. “It’s very frustrating,” says Juli Wisotsky.
One option could be to raise a civil case for intentional infliction of emotional distress. “But, does somebody want to get involved in a lawsuit for that?” she asks. “Or do they just want to let it go and try to heal and grieve what is a loss to them? Even though there was no baby there, they thought there was a baby. It’s a grief.”
Traumatised couples regularly report this scam to the FBI’s Internet Crime Complaint Centre. In a statement, the FBI told the BBC that although they were aware of emotional adoption scams, these were still uncommon. None of the parents have received a follow-up call. (Emotional adoption scams may be uncommon but what is not uncommon is that this is narcissists manipulating people but the FBI do not see that this is what happening and therefore they see it as an uncommon aspect and therefore do not apply any resource to it.)
But it’s not only the potential parents who have been hurt. There’s another person too. Because Ashley isn’t just a fake Instagram profile, cobbled together from some images and an active imagination. Ashley is a real 22-year-old, who lives in Georgia. Her name is Ashley King – and her identity has been stolen.
Sam, playing detective, finds Ashley’s profile easily – the pictures are all public. She messages her to warn her that her photographs are being used to trick people. And she points out that whoever runs the fake Instagram accounts knows intimate details about her life, her husband and her baby.
Ashley’s voice lowers as she describes the shock of seeing photos of her newborn child on another person’s Instagram account.
“The woman had loads of people thinking that they were going to adopt my daughter,” she says. “It’s a really scary thought. Why would someone do that?” (A narcissist who acquires character traits and has no emotional empathy).
She immediately files a report with Gwinnett County Police. What the scammer says about Ashley’s childhood is completely false, she explains, but when it comes to her daughter the impostor even knows what hospital she was born in.
“King stated the only information that was incorrect on her daughter was that she was listed as being born premature at 2lb 8oz when in reality she was born at 2lb 12oz,” reads the police report.
“All other information was correct.”
Sam thinks it’s likely that the fake Ashley knows the real one. (This is a possibility or more likely her information is very easy to obtain and her emotional thinking makes her think that it is someone who knows her when it is not, they have just done a good job of the gathering of intelligence for the purposes of the manipulation.)
“I don’t live in a very big town but if you picked a random woman out of my town and expected me to know her life story, I wouldn’t know it,” she says. “You would only know those details if you actually knew someone.”
But Ashley has no idea who it might be, and this makes her nervous.
“Now I have to look over my shoulder making sure this woman isn’t watching my kid, because she knows about where I lived,” she says. “It’s really scary.” (Ashley and her family have since moved house.) (The narcissist may think on this and gain Thought Fuel or indeed knows Ashley and gained Proximate Fuel from this, Ashley may well have told the narcissist about the narcissist and not even realise she has done so.)
Georgia has a law on identity theft, but it’s debatable whether it is applicable in this case. A few states have already passed legislation to tackle online impersonation, but prosecutions may not succeed if no money has changed hands. Who can put a value on a broken heart?
Gwinnett County Police say they are not currently investigating.
It must be hard for the scammer to remember exactly what she has said to different couples. When Sam is first contacted it’s by someone pretending to be 16 years old. But a month later, Ashley says she will get her dad to call the adoption attorney “since I am only 15”. (Most narcissists are not the puppeteering masterminds that people think and will make such errors, but it does not matter because often the victims do not talk to one another and even if they do, various factors, some of which have been touched on above, mean that nothing is done).
The scammer tells another couple that her middle name is Lorraine. Later, they suggest Olivia Lorraine as a potential name for the baby. She then replies, “Olivia is my middle name! Sounds perfect to us!”
But these are not her biggest mistakes.
To call or text hopeful parents, the scammer uses non-fixed Voice over IP (VoIP) telephone numbers, the technical name for calls that go over the internet, created through companies such as Google or Skype. These numbers require very little information on sign-up, making them difficult to trace.
But just occasionally she gets careless. One of the numbers used to contact Juli and Kristen isn’t an internet number. It’s a real mobile number, from Georgia, and registered to someone called Harry.
Type the number into Google and it immediately pops up – on a very pink website selling homemade slime. Thick, gluey and intensely squishable, slime was the toy of 2017 (the same year the site was last updated). The shop sells slime for $5, shipping is the same again. It also, inexplicably, sells six cupcakes for $18. And there is an email address with a name – Gabby.
When I call the number, it doesn’t go well. After my first question Gabby goes silent. Then she hangs up. (The narcissist instinctively recognises that control is being threatened and the reporter is issuing Challenge Fuel and therefore asserts control by hanging up and ending the call.)
Jessica Simmons, a mother of two adopted children, both of whom she found on Facebook, knows the name Gabby, and that telephone number, all too well.
In August 2016, a young woman contacted her on Facebook, saying she was pregnant. She began to fill in forms with Jessica’s adoption agency, giving her name and address: a small town outside Atlanta. Her age: 23.
“After about a month of talking to her every day, I reached out to one of her family members by private message,” says Jessica. The family member told her this was not the first time Gabby had pretended to be pregnant, and not to trust her. There was “nothing anybody could do to stop her” Jessica was told. (Note here that this victim has sought independent verification of what she is being told and learns at an early juncture that Gabby is manipulating. Logic prevails. Note however that nobody recognises what it is and the family adopt the position of there not being anything that can be done.
Three years later, a pregnant 16-year-old from Georgia called a Google Voice number on a Minnesotan couple’s adoption page. As they talked with her for hours, they inadvertently recorded part of a conversation.
Listening back to the recording, the young woman’s nasal voice still gets to the wife, making her anxious. “She spoke very low and quiet,” she remembers. “She was very needy and demanding and it made me very uncomfortable.”
As well as the fake Instagram accounts, Gabby also has a personal one. Photos of a curly-haired girl with glasses sit alongside slime-making videos, in which her voice can be heard. It’s the same as in the recording, and it’s the one I heard on the telephone.
Nothing has been posted on this Instagram account since June 2018. There is no mention of babies, adoption or pregnancy. The list of people she is following is revealing, however – it includes Ashley King.
By the time I speak to Ashley a second time, she herself has come to suspect Gabby may be the woman impersonating her, after stumbling across a bizarre series of messages from her on Facebook, most of which she doesn’t remember having received.
The first message congratulates Ashley on the birth of her daughter. Then they keep coming, asking for baby pictures and updates on the child’s health, month after month. At one point Gabby says:
“Can you send me a video of yourself saying, ‘Hey’? Then I’ll leave you alone.
“Or ‘Hey I’m Ashley.'”
Although that request goes unanswered, Ashley does occasionally send short, polite replies. And once or twice she even responds to Gabby’s strange demands – for example by sending a photo of her post-baby stomach. A photo which, of course, ends up on Instagram. (The narcissist is compiling the information from the real Ashley who does not realise that she is being manipulated even though some of the requests are obviously odd -once again this shows how the red flags are flying high but the power of emotional thinking means they are ignored):
At the time, Ashley points out, she had a newly born premature baby and passed much of her time in a sleep-deprived haze. It was only later that she realised just how many messages she’d received from this random Facebook friend, whom her husband had known vaguely when they were younger. (More red flags and the power of ET ascribing the missing of the red flags to being sleep deprived and thus missing what was actually impacting on the victim).
“When I was going through them, I was like, ‘Oh my goodness, I should’ve seen this a long time ago, when it first started happening,'” says Ashley. “I was very angry at myself. How I could not have caught it before?” (How many of you are nodding are you read this. Finally logic, long after the event, makes an appearance because ET has been reduced through no engagement with the narcissist.)
Juli Wisotsky can’t quite believe it when she ends up on the phone with Gabby again on 31 July, four months after their first conversation. From her law office, she takes a call from a 15-year-old named Mackenzie on behalf of a couple in New York, with a story she feels like she’s heard before. After one minute 20 seconds the girl hangs up and blocks her number.
This call comes more than two weeks after I started messaging Gabby and asking questions about her conversations with couples hoping to adopt.
A number of fake accounts Gabby used were reported to Instagram by her victims, but they remained online for months, until the BBC started asking Instagram why. Then they were deleted. An Instagram spokesman said: “Keeping people safe on Instagram is one of our biggest priorities. We’re aware of this issue and will disable any further accounts in violation of our policies. We encourage anyone to report content they think is against our guidelines using our in-app tools.”
“It is breaking people’s hearts,” says Juli. “It’s just wrong and it’s evil. And that’s a strong word to use. But I believe it is.”
“The more I think about her and who she probably is – she probably has a very sad existence,” says Sam. “Part of me thinks that she might not even realise what she’s doing is wrong.”
Sam just wishes she would stop.
(But narcissists will not. That is why you have to control the only thing you can control -yourself and apply no contact and ensure other people are warned about the behaviour of narcissists before emotional thinking takes hold.)
138 thoughts on “The Narcissist Torments : Emotional Torment”
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Again HG takes us on a detailed but direct and succinct journey to understand both the easily seen (if you know what to look for) and nuanced workings of the narcissist in an easily understandable and relatable way that I promise you can’t get anywhere else with this level of understanding, that includes from the “teachings” of petulant child narcissist Sam Vaknin masquerading as doctor. What type of narcissist would this likely be HG? It seems kind of beyond the “need” of the Greater, but above the skill of the Mid Ranger.
Thank you Don. Are you referring to the narcissist who is the subject of the The Narcissist Torments article?
HG, is it your opinion that other types of scammers are often narcissists, including those who do so for money? A well known example is the “Nigerian prince” type scam where people start online romantic relationships and claim to be wealthy but unable to access their money, and manipulate targets into wiring them large amounts of money. Often the individuals who do this are living in poverty and really are desperately trying to make a living any way they can. Of course this doesn’t excuse the behavior or minimize the pain it causes, but is such an individual necessarily a narcissist?
No, some are narcissists, many are narcissistic and some will be normals. The latter two have limited emotional empathy which is eroded by external stressors (abject poverty being one=), but usually the individuals will be narcissists.
HG,
Would you consider this Narcissist to be a Lesser? Some of the behavior sounds like my daughter’s father. He does a lot of this behavior. He monopolizes victims time with excessive messages A LOT. Another thing jumped out at me. How Sam took a phone call, but was annoyed with Ashley’s immaturity. so she hung up, but continued with messaging. Lesser narcissist use word salad a lot over the phone, and the desperation for fuel comes off as immature. The lashing out to gain dominance is another one.
What would be your assessment Anm?
HG,
Wow!!!! This one sucked me in, HG. We have the Empath’s perspective, the Narcissist’s, the Normal’s (reporter’s perspective), and HG tying it altogether to explain why this is so detrimental for all involved. He satisfies my empathic side in the end by explaining what we can do when put in a frustrating situation with a Narcissist. This has got to be one of the best written pieces from you, not just for the knowledge, but the way you captured the tone. Well done, HG!
Thank you.
Excellent analysis, HG. I read this earlier but was unable to comment from the computer and I just wanted to let you know.
BTW, in light of this, there is a film that might interest you. It is called ‘Compliance,’ which came out in 2012. I watched it when I still subscribed to NF.
What makes it so outrageous is that this was a real event that actually happened. A man called a fast food restaurant impersonating a cop and managed to get a young girl strip searched by her manager and eventually he got her to perform a sex act on a guy in the room, while being told to do so over the phone by this supposed ‘cop.’
The actress who plays the manager is really good. I remember when I saw this scratching my head, how could this happen? But it really did happen. It shows how far is one willing to go when pressured by a supposed authority figure?
Hi bibi…so creepy!! Its hard to believe that teen was naive enough to go that far and not suspect something was off. Really sick people out there!
Or not call the police station. The film does a good job of showing how he coerced his victims. He is just generic enough in his request, ‘Do you have young girl who works there, blonde, about 19?’
This can be any fast food chain anywhere. At first the girl says no, she will not be strip searched but then he threatens her with sending her to jail. Yet no one thought to CALL the police. An officer can’t arrest you over the phone.
Yes, that movie is terrifying! A bit unrealistic, a suspect some of the details were exaggerated, but still so scary.
I thought it was very well acted and well written and it really is a nail-biter, so to speak, esp. considering it is filmed entirely inside a fast food restaurant.
It’s almost as if every unstable behavior in society can be attributed to narcissism. It seems to be the #1 mental disorder. I assume also that people looking to adopt could also be narcissists. Apparently, narcissists are everywhere.
No, not every I stable behaviour can be attributed to narcissism.
Why would you assume someone wishing to adopt could be a narcissist?
Agreed I’m an empath and I can act pretty unstable at times haha.
Me too. Just see what I am like on Mondays.
Couldn’t they be? I should have used a question mark as that was more of a question than a statement.
Can’t we always ‘assume’ something ‘could’ be? Not that it would be a reasonable assumption. In certain circumstances this would be defined as ‘hope’ (not this one). I assumed my relationship with a narcissist could work. I was wrong. I have read your opinion on hope.
HG- your website hits are jumping up rapidly- I’ve noticed at least 150k unique hits increase over about just a month timeframe.. Is ShieldMaiden helping with marketing?
15,736,520 hits
Thank you. No, she’s not.
Did I miss that you told your significant other about all of these things? I’m not sure it would go over well for me. It’s not my business, but the comment above asks if she is helping. If indeed you have been pro-social as you’ve mentioned I could see a persuasive stance to present, but it’s a difficult subject.
No I did not
I’m sorry it’s a consideration to even deal with. You didn’t ask for all of this either frankly.
Quite alright.
I just ordered six bottles of hydrating marula oil so life isn’t all bad!
I think you’re doing the nasty with the DHL guy.
I’m sitting in an exam room all alone.
Well he’s not delivering right now clearly.
Oh I see—I’m now stalking delivery men. My 1/6 narcissist luck may improve if I just target delivery personnel to be honest.
Did you reveal to SM that you are a narcissist and about the world of HG yet? I may have missed something in the zillions of comments.
No, I have not.
Thanks for the response.
You are welcome.
I love it. I’m pretty sure the blog follower count has doubled in the time that I have been here too.
HG, I remember when you had a 20 question contest when you hit 4 million. That was fun!
I am pleased you enjoyed it.
HG
I understand the point to this and think it is an awesome example, yet damn you to hell!! after reading this it fuck my entire day up. I know you understand. I didn’t need to experience that on top of what I am dealing with in my life at the moment.
HG!
You’ve given us an excellent piece of investigative journalism!
Excellent!
So thorough, and absolutely rivetting!
This is a different facet of love fraud, and catfishing, where the rewards of fuel and control are the primary drivers of the utterly callous N-behaviour.
You showed us clearly the N-dynamic at each stage and the easily-created trauma bond that has cruelly inflicted such pain on the vulnerable and exploited childless victims.
Having worked in reproductive medicine (IVF), I know that emotional thinking is in overdrive: childless women, childless couples are an easily exploitable type of sitting target. They have a rapidly closing window of opportunity to realise their dreams of having a child. It greatly heightens the emotion.
Any loss in this process is a deep grief.
Add N-abuse, and it’s traumatizing.
I’ll email the journalist this week. They’ll be familiar with you from NarcAngel’s and MB’s email ahead of mine.
Thank you for this great article HG.
Thank you.
HG, absolutely brilliant article! I love the way you break things down.
I complete get and understand why this person is a narcissist. Totally!
What I just cannot understand is why a narcissist would purposely go out of their way to seek out fuel from someone they’ve never met. Like I just don’t get it at all.
I understand the fuel from people they interact with when in close proximity or even by text/phone when it is someone they’ve previously interacted with in person.
I understand when these types target vulnerable people to make money and also gain fuel as part of the interaction. But to just gain fuel from this makes no sense to me whatsoever?
Is there a certain type of N who would do this? Or is ir thet their fuel levels have dropped and they need to get it from somewhere by doing anything?
Apologies if I missed this in the article I’ve been reading bits between meetings as I was stunned at what I was reading but will take the time to read it thoroughly tonight.
I guess I don’t really understand the mids who come on here either, only to ‘fight’ with people? To me that’s just a waste of time and energy.
It is not going out of their way though is it, it is easy through the internet.
The Mid Rangers do not come here to fight. They do not think “I must go to KTN and cause some trouble” they come and instinctively seek fuel through their provocative comments, pity plays, ill-founded opinions etc. They are corrected for reasons of accuracy by me and readers, some readers correct them and issue Challenge Fuel. The Mid Ranger instinctively feels that their control is being affected (but they do not know this consciously) they think they are being unfairly attacked, they are right and everyone else is wrong, they are blinded to their lack of evidential basis for their assertions, they are blinded by their narcissism, they think they are good people and the blog is populated by “fangirls” and “groupies” and thus they perpetuate the arguments or pity plays and on it goes. Of course to you it is a waste of time and energy, you are entirely correct from your perspective, but from the Mid Range perspective they really do think they are right and they are blinded by their narcissism to the evidence and they keep going until they are forced to withdraw because they are being wounded or they cannot assert control because of the repeated challenges so they slink away and go and complain elsewhere about nasty Mr Tudor and his horrible harpies!
Dearest HG: Regarding another group: Some people, I have noticed, come on here and then become jealous and envious of the vivacity and liveliness of this site and of you, and of all of the intelligent and interesting readers bantering about and so they then want to draw that attention towards themselves and away from you. And so they try to usurp the site for themselves. They fail, but I guess if they could seize this site on behalf of themselves, it would be much easier for them than doing all this work that you do. Nothing stops them from actually going about themselves and doing the hard work and moderating such a site of their own creation, other than their own lack of ability. So they instinctively try to lay their eggs in your nest so to speak as much as they can. And then they desire to check in from time to time to see if anything hatched from them on here, from their labors to commandeer the site. I am glad that you do not give them too much leeway. I do not want to see what would come out of their eggs, if planted and allowed to hatch on here. Nothing good, that is for sure. I am feeling a bit angry just thinking about it, so I will stop here. HG, you know you are a marvel. ~~PSE
Correct.
“Mr Tudor and his Horrible Harpies”
Sounds like a good name for a rockabilly band.
Groupies?
Fangirls?
Yep, we’re all card-carrying members, and my card says free Gin and Tonic on Friday night at the Tudor Mansion Bar (“Bombay Sapphire and fresh lime? Thank you!”).
What’s the name of the Bar again?
“The Fuelling Station”?
“The Repeat Offender”?
“The Crying Game” (HG’s favourite game).
“The Hoovered Dame”
“The Vampire’s Succour” (sucker….Hoover….fuel-enhancer/substitute…. seduction helper…..it’s a play on words)
“The Smoking Mirror” (smoke and mirrors. Attracts Ns who vape as part of the facade for the new appliance; you know, the ones who used to go to the gym and drink kale smoothies with the former IPPS)
“The Glass Half Empty”
“The Elbow-bender Rule-bender Bar”
“The Elbow-bender Rule-bender Gender-bender Bar” (not your’s obviously HG. Another N’s Bar).
“The Sour Grapes”
“The Bitter End” or “The Bitter Truth” (mostly sells beer).
“The Controlled Substance” (umm, everything and everyone is controlled…..and there is no substance….)
“The Grapes of Wrath”
“The Fast and the Fury-ous” (furious) (a sports bar for Somatic Ns)
“The Cold Shoulder” (pop-up Bar in summer only)
“The Cold Stare” (pop-up Bar in summer only)
“The Empty Barrel and Drained Appliance”
“The Ghoster and Gaslighter”
“The IPPS on Thin Ice” (a pop-up Bar in winter only)
“The Bermuda Triangulation” (a pop-up Bar in summer only).
“Raising the Hoover” Bar. (I made myself laugh!)
What’s the house cocktail again?
“Sex with the Ex”?
“IPPS on the Rocks”?
“Relationship on the Rocks”
“Gaslighter’s Delight” (a lot of bubbles and froth, but manages to give a fierce hangover)?
“The Fakebook Ghostship”?
“The Fakebook Stalker”?
“The Fuel Matrix” ? (very rich, loads of vodka, liquour and cream; most people can only manage one per night. The rocket fuel of the menu. Highly addictive).
Impressive. Skål!
HG
hahaha!
Thank you!
We’ll all there at 8 on Friday.
What time does Mr Tudor and his Harpies start playing?
I heard they have a mean lead guitar player.
Caroline R
That was a riot! And I especially loved this line: (I made myself laugh!)…ha ha ha.
K
Thanks!
So, I’ll send an Uber driver round to your house at 7:30 Friday night…..
Caroline R
Ha ha ha…thanks for my morning laugh! See you Friday night.
Thank you – that is incredibly helpful HG! Great points re the MRs who come on here.
Out of everything I’ve learned from you, this seems the most bizarre still.
I see Ns getting into arguments/fights which I personally wouldn’t bother with. e.g. if they’ve felt slighted by an email, or an internet supplier applied discount incorrectly. And they exhaust their complaint beyond belief, for little to no gain, or continue the fight even when they’ve ‘won’.
But I literally cannot imagine any one of the MRs I know personally doing this type of thing, or trolling or anything of that nature. I’m sure some of them must because someone has to be doing these things. It’s just unthinkable. And as much as I understand and can see their behaviour and know and accept how their poor IPPS/SSs suffer at their hands, I just cannot fathom this one at all.
It’s all fucked up but this is extra fucked up!
Would you guess it is a pretty low percentage of mids who would troll or do similar things of this nature etc or would you suspect that the MRs I interact with at work/private life would actually be up to this sort of thing?
Indeed but there is a gain with those petty fights, fuel and control. To you it is understandable ridiculous but not to the narcissist who does not see it as petty, the narcissism drives a need for control, total and absolute control. They do not see it as a trivial matter of an incorrectly applied discount buy unconsciously regard it as the HOLY HELL OF AN ATTACK AGAINST CONTROL!
Not all narcissists troll in this fashion because they are drawn to proximate fuel over the virtual fuel and therefore it is a lower percentage of Mid Range Narcissists who behave in such a way.
That’s a relief to hear only a small number of Ns would behave in that manner.
I’m aware that I like to control my environment too. And over the last few months I’ve been considering why that is, if I’m not an N. As you always remind us (very helpful), we all have N traits.
From my perspective (I try to be objective, but I could of course be subjective about this) my need for control comes from a good place with good intentions. Then I wonder, are they really good intentions? most Ns believe they have good intentions and don’t see that they aren’t. So perhaps mine aren’t either. Could all just be my perspective? but whilst I may control a bit, yes, I’m also quite happy to be controlled (given the right circumstances of course) and I certainly don’t need total and absolute bloody control.
It’s lucky you guys don’t need much sleep! Reading back what I’ve written, I feel exhausted and confused – time for a nap!
Alexissmith2016
Be the narcissist, put yourself in their shoes. When you do that, it all makes perfect sense. Their self-defence mechanism is brilliant.
Thanks K, and yes literally most of the time I can do that now. But there are just some things which are still so alien. Fewer and fewer as I continue to learn. You’re very good at doing this
My pleasure Alexissmith
It takes effort but you are doing very well.
Just look at it logically:
1. What do they need? Fuel.
2. How do they get it? Control.
3. Do they know what they are? No.
4. Is it on purpose or deliberate? No, it’s all instinct.
5. Do they have a choice? Absolutely not.
6. Is it their fault? No, they didn’t ask to be narcissists.
They are driven by their self-defence mechanism; it’s very fluid and it just comes naturally to them.
This is why I’m glad you are back K.
Lorelei
ha ha ha…thank you! I really did miss everyone. Narcsite is great because we all learn from each other and, I think, this place is the silver lining for many of us.
💕💕
Thanks K. I’m going to copy and paste your helpful comment for my little manual of reminders.
alexissmith2016
Excellent, reminders are very helpful and I use them myself. We cannot look at it from our POV; we must look at it from the narcissist’s POV to make sense of it all. It’s not easy at first but it becomes second nature after a while.
Alexis. Narcissists are not entirely off the hook. Do they know right from wrong? Yes. They are not allowed to play the 100% instinct card. If they do not know right from wrong, that makes them animals with no reasoning whatsoever. Maybe some are like that, but most know right from wrong. They just do not subjugate themselves to acknowledging right from wrong if they can get away with it, and if it goes against their aims, as much as empaths and normals. We do the same and not subjugate ourselves to every declaration from society especially, about what is right and what is wrong, but less often, and we also skirt around these notions when we do not agree with everything taught, and we also navigate it all as successfully as we can to live according to our aims that are not always for the good. Narcissists do so more than the norm. Much much more.
There is no objective standard of right or wrong. We see your “right” as wrong for us. We have a different perspective. Yes, some of our kind know about “your right” but our narcissism determines that it should not be applied to us and therefore it is rejected, ignored, excused, worked around etc. Often it is acknowledged but is not seen as applicable because the narcissism determines that it is not.
PSE, I agree, they are not ‘off the hook’. They may not have asked to be how they are, but I have absolutely zero sympathy/empathy for them now that I fully understand what they are. Pre-N knowledge, of course I had copious amounts for everyone, then when I started on my journey, I still felt desperately sorry for the child inside them. But having learned from HG all emotions (good or bad) towards any N have completely disintegrated. Not for HG though, he is rather special after all. He can have the good, the bad all of it – he owns us after all, would be rude not to!
Alex: We all have the responsibility to at times: Check Ourselves before we Wreck Ourselves in this life. I would never tell a Narcississt: you operate by instinct so there is no way you can evolve and make better decisions as you go through your life. I am sure they would just love to hear they bear no responsibility and that whatever they think is right for themselves is right and whatever they think is wrong for themselves is wrong. That is just a more sophisticated definition of being very selfish. And it will work for them until it no longer works for them, and if no one ever challenges them to evolve a bit, we deserve what happens to all of us. It is so much easier to say, I had no choice, than to say, I chose what was best for me according to my own desires, even though I know what I chose is wrong, and I would not wish such a wrong to be done to me as I do to others. In fact I would be furious and exact revenge and pour out malice upon the person at fault, if such an action was done to me. The latter is at least, would be honest.
HG, I enjoy this approach of taking an article and including your comments/explanations. I remember you used this approach with my background summary in my first e-mail consultation with you. I knew nothing about narcissism at that time, so it was so eye opening to to see you identify the manipulative behaviors and explain why they were being done. Even though my ET would continue to resist, your logic made sense of what was previously inexplicable behavior.
I think this article’s approach is helpful for everyone, however, I think it’s particularly helpful for people unfamiliar with narcissism so they can begin to recognize/understand the manipulations with the benefit of your irrefutable logic.
Thank you BCHG.
Wow, this made my head hurt and heart pound. The idea of targeting strangers like that to manipulate for emotional reactions is just mind boggling. So different from the cruelty in a romantic narc relationship, or familial. I cannot even imagine what a pathetic existence one must live in order to do this for entertainment (slash fuel).
Bold/italics as always super helpful in identifying the narc’s motivations and resulting behaviors.
This article is sublime and it makes me think of these two articles below.
Why Can’t They See It Too? The Narcissist’s Façade At Work
Excuses Equals Endangered
HG curious what type of narc is out there doing this?
I’m guessing cerebral since there’s no sexual content to this fuel.
Mid range? Maybe even Lesser given the low effort it takes? Though it takes some intelligence gathering so not sure a lesser would make that effort. Certainly a Greater must prefer (and easily obtain) more potent fuel from people proximate and not undertake this.
Am I close??
Does the narc BELIEVE this false persona while they are manipulating? (ie narcissism allows them to believe in the moment they are actually pregnant?)
Thank you and great article!!
Some narcissists might believe they are indeed pregnant, there are some narcissists who suffer from some very serious delusions. In this instance I regard it as more likely that the narcissist is well aware of not being pregnant. As to cadre victim, elite or cerebral – most likely victim or cerebral. As to school, MMR or UMR.
Interesting observation about narcissists having delusions and I assume this co-mingles when there is also an existing mental disorder. “Pamela” fixated on a “Tony” would be an example..
Correct. There are a couple of others who’ve appeared her exhibiting similar and more extreme delusions.
What were the most severe delusions you ever encountered and what school did they belong to?
I am saving this for further writing Desiree, there have been some very severe examples of such behaviour some of which I have witnessed in narcissists in my private life but many examples have occurred through my work here.
To be frank—the delusional content isn’t funny at all, it’s a pretty distressing state for someone to be in and the narcissism probably complicates it further. A mess essentially. I see it at work now that I see things with more insight.
Who’s Pamela & Tony
Pamela was on here awhile back. She is or was obsessed with interacting in a negative/inflammatory fashion and is delusional re, a Tony character that I think may be a public figure. She lives in the southern US and has a history of illogical behavior characteristic of a substantially mentally ill woman. I think the narcissism drives the tenacity of her crazy ideas because she rambles incessantly and it seemed related to fuel acquisition to a great extent. I suspect from the little I saw a mood disorder as also being prevalent. A mix of pathology—none of it flattering. I think the best avenue in the future is for everyone to 100% ignore the rambling of obviously mentally deranged individuals. I imagine she has caused incredible discord for family members, her community mental health arena, etc.
Ohhh ok Nvmd got it
Speaking of this HG, I would love to see a piece from you on the differences between NPD and the grandiose delusions that can sometimes accompany psychosis or mood disorders.
I would write that piece but I first must complete building my house on Mars.
Dearest HG: How absolutely Bizarre. So, these are emotional schemes, not asking anyone for money, but perpetrated by the Narcississt for the enjoyment/fuel procured by having something valuable to dangle for months before a victim? Controlling them, Befriending them, rejoicing with them, hurting them, planning with them, toying with them and then dumping them cruelly, when the time to produce the dangle could not be postponed much longer. HG, there is a possibility that such Narcissists once had an actual dangle but it did not work out for some reason, but the Narcissist enjoyed the resulting interaction so much, and all the fuel that surrounded the situation that it became a manipulative hobby for the Narcississt to dangle something valuable (like a baby) for the fuel and interaction and attention of such a high quality level, and then drop the unsuspecting victims, when the ploy started overheating. I am also reminded of those people that pretend to be ill or pretend that their child is ill and then reap many residual benefits and attention. Over and Over. It would be interesting to find out how the girl came up with this ploy. I wish you could interview or interrogate her. You are so charming and smart that you would be able to obtain from her the genesis of this activity. And some do receive donation money and other residual benefits, in such cases. But, I am not sure if the illness dangle is similar to this case…and also, those military men and those that wear those uniforms falsely that you told us about, the other day. Sadly, If I were to see a man in a clean and crisp military uniform, I do not think I would have any initial suspicion, especially if he were mannerly. Many military men in the U.S. are from the Southern and Midwestern states where men are known for their polite manners. And the military also enforces mannerly deportment on all of them. If he were rude, however, I would probably know something was wrong. But, this baby dangling without asking for money is an odd way to get attention. How bizarre. Excuse me if I sound surprised about this case, HG. I am. I find it truly unusual. Stranger than fiction. Thank you for showing us this case. One day, utilizing Magical Thinking, this type of person may actually kidnap and then present a real baby to someone that has been ensnared in such an emotional ploy. Scary.
Also wanted to say in this day in age most people will ask to be on camera with someone they meet online. Dont go by pictures alone ask to see them on camera! It amazes me how many will be strung along by pictures alone. If they dont want to go on camera huge red flag!!!
So easy to steal an identity. Sadly once your pictures are posted theyre out there. I rarely post pics of my kids and myself for this reason and am super private.
They dont want to be seen in real time via camera then they are hiding who they “really” are.
Im not so sure the narcissist enjoyed seeing these couples in pain i think she just wanted to use their pain to draw attention from them to keep her own delusion of being pregnant and making their dreams come true alive. When they inserted reality by asking her to contact the adoption agency it upset her bc she was reminded the gig would soon be up and with it her attention. Its no different than a relationship catfisher who strings people along online using fake pictures to draw men or women in. They enjoy pretending to be the person they post pics of and the fake relationships they produce. These catfishers believe their own lies and enjoy the facade actually living them out online.
I suspect this narcissiat to be very lonely and very troubled. Probably from a bad childhood of abuse herself stemming from neglect. In a round about way she wants the attention her fake baby will get. She wants the attention from these couples who so desperately want a baby. She probably wishes she was the baby but being the babys mum is the next best thing.
Their pain was fuel. Their excitement was fuel. Their joy was fuel. Their disappointment was fuel. It was not her delusion of being pregnant but it was about control and fuel.
When they asked her to contact the adoption agency instead of her, they were asserting control (inadvertently as explained in the article) and therefore there was the switch to a different manipulation. The narcissist would not think the “gig would soon be up” because the narcissist would not be looking that far ahead (indeed it was nowhere near up) and instead the narcissist is focussed on control in the now.
The enjoyment you refer to is incorrect. It is the manifestation of fuel. The facade is part of magical thinking which is a manifestation of the narcissism.
Yes she wants attention but it is actually the fuel. She does not wish she was the baby or the baby’s mum, she wants fuel.
Your observations are wide of the mark and exhibit emotional thinking which is obscuring the logic of what has happened, it is understandable given what you mention with regard to your own personal circumstances in a separate comment. However, it is important to point out that your incorrect assertions (although I recognise they are well-intentioned) demonstrate once again how people (understandably) miss what is actually happening here and they relegate it to other matters which obscure the logic.
I also suspect most of the catfishers (if not all) are narcissists, acting for the same purposes as this woman (fuel & control).
You are correct Abe.
Abe
Absolutely correct. They are being fueled electronically.
Hi HG…ty for your reply i always appreciate your insight. I of course am completely speculating bc im not inside of this girls head. I think where my speculation was originated from was first her age which is quite young and the fact she never asked for money which i found odd. I can see what youre saying and youre the expert in this regard but i couldnt help trying to think from this girls angle which of course not having npd myself is difficult to do.
Ive seen other catfish stories on tv and most of them are people living out a fantasy and they really do get into their own delusion and believe it while interacting with their victims. It reminds me a bit of a kidnap victim and how the kidnapper believes their victim wants to be with them over time. In some situations the victims will play along to survive. It reminded me of this same delusion of acting out a scenerio ie being pregnant and helping out a couple while recieving tons of praise, concern and attention aka fuel.
Its all fuel! Im still not so sure the fuel from the disappointment was the motivating factor but rather a corrective devaluation for ruining the facade when they injected reality being having to go thru the adoption agancy. The adoption agency would be a threat to this girl bc its a dead end bc she would not be able to go thru with that.
Not replying to messages and blocking would distract from this request and restart the conversations again.
My speculation which it is just that originated from the fact she never asked for money.
I do see your point and she could very well enjoy the fuel from all of it especially if she has a sadistic side and enjoys seeing peoples dreams get crushed.
Very sad all around!! 🙁
The Catfish stories will not be representative because it is television which will edit matters and portray them in order to sensationalise. Again, this program is misleading.
To ensure accuracy “she could very well enjoy the fuel from all of it” – there is no could. She needs the fuel and the receipt of this gives the appearance of enjoyment.
Chimum
My take is this: If she’s a narcissist (pretty good bet) she would only want kids for facade. I think she simply gets a huge negative fuel kick from controlling the emotions and lives of these people who are gushing fuel pumps due to the nature of the scam. The fuel will wane quickly though because it is not proximate and can only be kept up for the period of pregnancy, so once people start to catch on that there is a problem she blocks and feeds off the thought fuel of the devastation she has caused while she simply moves on to the next victim.
Ah. I see after making my comment that HG has responded to end our speculation with the correct motive.
Very good article hg once again a very good one for us to reference and look at. I like when you break down stories like this helps me understand so much more and clears up alot of questions as to why they do what they do I thank you for helping me use my “narc away spray”
Thank you
Wow this is just heartbreaking on so many levels! As a woman who has experienced infertility and the same emotions i can only imagine the rollercoaster ride these couples were put thru.
Then theres ashley whose identiry was used to catfish these couples. She mustve been scared and protective over her daughter. Thats the realitythat there are people who catfish and scam on the internet all the time. Im a bit surprised they didnt ask for skype or videos. Anyone can post fake pictures and lie about themselves but these couples are so vulnerable they fall for it!
When i was looking for a puppy i was scammed a few times thru internet ads and it was always similiar stories how the owner died and they were giving the puppy away and id only need to send money to have it sent by air. I knew right away something was off.
These couples are in a whole other league and very emotional so it lowers their defences.
I think what shocked me most about this article was the narcissists motives. They wanted attention. I do wonder if they might be a bit sadistic too or if it was just out of sheer lonliness. Why waste these couples time? I guess fuel in the way of having their undivided attention and i suspect the narc got into the act and believed or enjoyed pretending to be pregnant. My guess is she watched ashley and was envious over her happiness and wanted to experience that same attention thru these couples. The whole ordeal is heartbreaking. The young narcissist needs psychological help! Its so easy to look at prosecution which is necessary but this girl needs psychological help. Its so sad for the couples, for the identity victim and also for the narcissist.
Criminal profiler…nice work , HG .
Ok… Interesting. Just creating complete chaos for people. Teach red flags to middle schoolers? The problem…is that kids would be immediately ostracized and labeled. That’s clearly how we get school shooters.
This was helpful. The real life examples really bring it home. I never would have thought of such a manipulation. Where there are feelings there’s fuel. Enjoying someone’s suffering and pain is inconceivable.
Jessrnny, before finding HGs work I never could have conceived of people scamming for emotional responses. Money? Yes, anybody can understand that. This is a whole new level of cruelty and can be worse! Furthermore, there is zero legal recourse and once again, the narc gets away with it. It’s infuriating!
We will always evolve and adapt to our environment I guess. Clever way of avoiding punishment tho. I’d be interested to find out what her school and cadre is.
MB—I know right!
when i read your articles every time i feel terrified at the first. then i think i understand. but no, i guess i will always be shocked. i feel like there is no limit in NarcSpace.
the bold and italics are very impressive. thank you HG.
Thank you and you’re welcome
Happy you advised to read it,Sir. That is so far-fetched ! So, fuel is the Holy Grail. Nothing would stop a narcissist to quench his/her thirst.I have a lot of reading, listening ahead before grasping its true sense. Your comments are very helpful. Didn’t even imagine that fuel could be obtained this way. Bare cruelty. Thank you,Sir.
Did you send Naomi Pallas your observations, HG?
No.
A reader with a Twitter account should send her a link to your article. She’s a self-proclaimed catfish tracker and needs to make herself familiar with HG Tudor @naomi_pallas
That doesn’t mean Naomi will remain unaware……
NA, we’re on the same wavelength girl!
Holy hell! This story is getting press on Good Morning America!
You know what to do MB
HG
Way ahead of you. Already done.
I expected nothing less NA, thank you.
My pleasure HG.
Of course I know what to do. Carrier mode in full effect!
It’s ironic that her real account is for slime!
MB: Ironic indeed. Beyond. But, we become blinded by E.T in life, of course. So many Red Flags.We must do better going forward.
This is brilliant HG. Thank you. It’s illuminating to see how a narcissist operates outside of a romantic relationship.
Thank you, it’s a very important article for many reasons. Do bring it to the attention of others.
I’ve already sent it on lol!! You would be a brilliant criminal profiler.
Who says I’m not already one?
What’s my criminal profile?!
Serial killer – of packages.
Haha—I used to charge up cards and my dad was always paying them off in irritation! Started early! Now I have to pay off the damn things.
Hahaha. The Amazon Annihilator.
Haha NA! Yes indeed! I bought six pair of my work tennis shoes because they were 30% off and that huge box arrived last night! How can I not when they are on sale and I got three different colors (two each).
By the way.. You failed miserably to cover one important thing in Fury. Is it challenge fuel or wounding when a middle aged man is made fun of for getting a nipple pierced?
Challenge Fuel.
Damn I should have wounded when I asked what the hell is wrong with you.. You should have had a chapter just for this.
HG has Ultra Narcvision. Nobody compares, he could even profile the profilers like he did with Dr. E. I really enjoyed this article. It highlights how narcissists can reveal themselves even through smaller details and outside of a romantic entanglement.
Thank you Desiree.
What article with Dr. E?
I recently met a gorgeous English man, a brilliant witty plastic surgeon. My first thought was “could this be HG” … so no, I dont see you as a criminal profiler. But maybe it is because of the illusion of who you could be in my mind.
Mystery—I’m buying breasts this coming spring. If HG were plastics he could even design them! Yet, it would be a bit odd.
mysteryeyes: Have you read HG`s Profiles on various people of interest on Narcsite? His work is Just Amazing. Amazing work.
Lorelei
He mentioned it in the comment section of “Putting a Sex on you” regarding his talks with Dr. E. He wanted to talk about Sex with HG who remarked that he would rather have that conversation with Dr. O and only after some negotiation on HGs part did E agree to have HG talk about the subject with O in the future as well.
A reader pointed out that E overstepped the bounds by refusing to let HG decide who to talk to. HG responded that E would certainly do so since he is one of his kind and later remarked that E does not know what he is, which would put him in the Mid-Range category. I was impressed that HG would be abled to discern that so effortlessly, given that this is a setting where E is the one to be asking the questions and trying to figure out HG, not the other way around. Ultra Narcvision at work right there, what I would give for a day in his mind.
Interesting. Don’t the doctors read the thread to see where the branding of mid range narcissism was applied?
Desiree. Good News. You are a very lucky Desiree! I asked HG, around a month or so ago, if he would tell me about a day in his life, and he told me that I am a very lucky PSE, because he has a book coming out on that very idea titled: [`The World Of The Narcississt`]. So stay tuned Desiree. The book is coming out on Amazon, and HG said he will tell us when it is available to be ordered.
Desiree: I hope this link opens regarding The World of The Narcississt: https://i0.wp.com/narcsite.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/KTN-The-World-Of-The-Narcissist-Volume-1-Book-Coming-Soon-Teaser.jpg?resize=768%2C768&ssl=1