Something Does Not Feel Right
“I am left feeling I am not good enough”
“I am always waiting for him to call.”
“She never seems to listen to me.”
“I feel like I always have to respond straight away.”
“I do not feel settled.”
“I always feel like I am being scrutinised.”
“I feel like I am out of my depth.”
“I am always wondering whether he is serious or joking with me, I struggle to tell.”
“I cannot seem to think about anything other than him.”
“She makes me feel left out.”
“It seems like I am always running around after him.”
“I always feels like I have to please them.”
“I feel like I am on trial.”
“I find myself always having to explain myself.”
“It feels more like an obligation than a friendship.”
“I am often left wondering what is happening.”
“I am left feeling unsure of myself.”
“I feel like I am always on call for her.”
“I keep feeling jealous and that makes me feel bad.”
“I am anxious for him to leave her and be with me.”
“If I express an opinion I feel like I am being unfair in doing so.”
“It is great when we are together, but then am left feeling uncertain when we are apart.”
“I am sure he doesn’t mean to make me feel nervous, but I am.”
“I don’t think I am good enough.”
“I don’t want to let her down.”
“Nothing seems to bother him and I am such a worrier. I will put him off.”
“I don’t understand why he still keeps in touch with her, but I don’t feel I can say anything.”
“I am nervous I will mess this up and he is so wonderful.”
“It´s nothing specific, but there´s something that makes me uneasy. It is probably just me.”
Doubtless many of you will find some of the above comments will resonate with you.
You have been created with emotional empathy. This has formed the bedrock for your worldview and your perspective. This accords with a majority perspective and forms the basis for those subjective qualities of what is deemed as “good” and “bad”. Since you operate within the majority perspective it is your perspective of “good” and “bad” which prevails.
When you encounter something which contrasts with this majority perspective, you often do not see it as a clear, shining example. Instead, you have a “feeling” or a “gut instinct”. This is the manifestation of behaviour which clashes with your empathic world view. This is your alarm bell.
There are those of you whose alarm bell does not often ring at all, although you are limited in number. For most of those who are empathic, the alarm bell rings through some kind of feeling encapsulated by many of the phrases detailed above and more besides.
So far, so effective. You have an established worldview formed by your emotional empathy. When you encounter behaviour which contrasts with this empathic worldview, your alarm bell goes off. Where it is one of our kind (and it almost always is one of our kind) which has caused this alarm bell to sound, this is when the problem starts.
Your alarm bell sounds but you attribute it to the wrong cause.
You either think that the cause is an external reason for this alarm bell, such as
- The individual is tired or exhausted
- The individual is drunk
- The individual is suffering from stress
- The individual is suffering from grief or bereavement
- The individual is under some kind of pressure
- The individual suffers from anger management issues
- The individual is highly strung
There are others besides.
The alternative is that you think the cause is an internal reason, namely your behaviour, such as
- You are too sensitive
- You have been hurt before
- You are too direct
- You think badly of people too quickly
- You are too trusting
- You were not listening
- You judged too soon
- You are tired, upset, stressed
- You were insensitive to the needs of others
- You were worried
There are others besides.
Accordingly, when your alarm bell rings, you end up attributing the sensation of something feeling wrong to either an external cause to that you are the problem.
This is incorrect.
It is akin to your burglar alarm going off and you think it was a passing cat or that you tripped the sensor yourself. It was the burglar.
Something which offends your worldview, offends the logic of your world. Your logic seeks to warn you by creating a feeling or a sensation (the alarm bell) so that you take action.
Unfortunately, two factors interfere in this warning system.
The first is a lack of understanding about the nature of the individual that is generating the behaviour which causes the alarm. The red flags that signal that it is a narcissist which is engaging in behaviours which are offending your worldview.
The second is the obscuring nature of your emotional thinking which does not want you to pay attention to the alarm´s actual source and instead diverts you to thinking it is the external source (incorrect) or your fault (also incorrect).
Your emotional thinking does not want you abiding by the logic of your world. It does not want you acting on the alarm by identifying the real cause (the narcissist) and then taking the logical step to avoid further harm (further feelings that something is wrong) by removing yourself from the real cause (the narcissist).
Your emotional thinking does not want to do what is best for you. It does not want you to know the actual source of the alarm nor act on that alarm. It wants you looking in the wrong place,e taking the incorrect course of action so that you remain interacting with the narcissist.
Your emotional thinking does not care about your physical health, your emotional contentment, your mental well-being or the state of your bank balance. It is not interested in you engaging with a healthy, normal and well-adjusted individual. That does not matter to your emotional thinking.
For a very unfortunate few of you, there is no inherent alarm system and you need to build one. It is hard work but achievable.
For the vast majority of you, you have the alarm system but it is infected and caused to malfunction by making you look in the wrong place for the problem and not act on the actual problem. Fortunately for you, this faulty alarm system can be corrected although it requires repeated and ongoing maintenance, which is naturally most worthwhile.
There is a valid reason why you feel something is not right. It is your early warning system, but it is not perfect and it is fundamental that you realise this and understand that it is here that you are able to perfect its operation.
128 thoughts on “Something Does Not Feel Right”
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“If he wanted to, he would.”
Full stop.
Puts an immediate end to the silent treatment.
Forever.
Only just seen this. Well that is good to know! I must just go where the Ns like to go haha
Alexis,
I do the same!
Whenever I am in a meeting or place with many people I do not know, I count the amount of people, divide with 6, and only then I can breathe back normal and have some feeling of control back, knowing : ok, at this moment there are x or y amount of N in the same room. THAT helped me a lot.
And agreed, sometimes it IS more then 1/6…depends on the type of meeting.
This was the best medicine for my panic attacs, and they were huge, sometimes lasted for an hour, not anymore, thanks to this simple maths trick!
HG, I was listening (for the 100th time) to a video about Lies . You say in it that the narcissist is delusional ( L & MR) bc they believe their worldview is THE only one.
But if 1/6 of the population believes this worldview- how is it a delusion?
Because it is 1/6 and is therefore a minority view as against the majority view. That is why we are viewed as disordered, there are far more of us than people realise, but we are still outside the majority perspective.
If more than 1 out of 6 people is a narcissist, out of 100% total: what numerical percentage is comprised of narcissists, what numerical percentage is comprised of empaths, and what numerical percentage is comprised of normals?
Divide one by six and times one hundred to get the percentage of narcissists.
Divide two by six and times one hundred to get the percentage of empaths.
Divide three by six and times one hundred to get the percentage of normals.
Well, I’ll never know. You know we don’t do math. 😔
😂
By “we” I was referring to my profession, not Tudorites! 🙃
😂 I thought it was Tudorites, since I don’t do math if I can help it! I did see that some of us do though, thankfully!!
Bingo! This is why narcissists have to “work” for two 😊
BC30:
50% of normals.
33% of empaths.
17% of narcissists.
Heh, my trio at work (2E + 1N) is also correct 🙂
Although, in fact, the links are much longer and broader and come from the very top.
😂 thanks to you and everyone who helped me out.
BC30, lol! The answer is 16.66% narcs, 33.33% empaths, 50% normals
I *can’t* do math. LOL I’m serious. 🤓
16% narcissist
33% empath
51% normal
The narcissist number feels high in my experience. The empath number though feels very high. I’m sure HG is correct but those numbers don’t reflect my personal experience at all. Personally, other than on here, I have interacted with only three other empaths to my knowledge.
Since being here on the blog, I do believe I see others of my kind occasionally when I’m out and about. These can only be indicators though. Behaviours that I notice. Placing my new knowledge of empaths on my past experiences and relationships, the number still holds at only three empaths.
The narcissist number seems closer but still high. I recognise now various narcs that I’ve interacted with unknowingly in the past, mostly due to my work history. I’d still say 16% was high though.
So I must side step narcs, and expect too much from empaths. I’d have put normals at 80%, narcs at 12% and empaths at 8%.
Love is a Taught Construct.
Now that we know Empaths also a have physiological component, 33% feels correct to me.
I suspect a child with one or two Empath caregivers/parents is very likely to become Empath *FAR* more often than they become Normal because– love is a taught construct.
My childhood was not perfect, but with two Empath parents I knew I was loved absolutely, unconditionally, and it was expressed in daily life. Why would I have become Normal? 🤪
BC30 says, “I suspect a child with one or two Empath caregivers/parents is very likely to become Empath *FAR* more often than they become Normal because– love is a taught construct.” I wish that was true. I don’t know how it happened but only one of my children is an empath. The other is not. I can’t figure out the lack of control environment either. When I think of the lack of control environment, I think about how I was raised and neither one of my children experienced that. This is where I start to question nature vs nurture, GPD vs LOCE. I just wonder is nature/GPD a bigger influence in the creation of narcissism?
Indeed, but without the GPD one simply cannot be a Narcissist. Thus, I could only have been an Empath or Normal. That is not to say that a Normal or Empath could never pass on the Narcissist GPD (I think my paternal grandmother was a Narcissist), but it is more likely for a child with an Empath GPD who is raised by at least one Empath to become an Empath rather than a Normal.
I suspect the LOCE is highly subjective, but I was only referring to the Empath GPD and LOCE tendencies, not Narcissists.
This is why I am going to do EDC and NDC on all of my family members. There have to be some Narcissists and some Normals in the bunch.
Subjective! I think that’s the key. When I talk about my upbringing, other people describe it as horrific. Yet it doesn’t feel that way to me. Here I am an empath. Then when I think about how my children were raised, it feels like it would be a walk in the park compared to my childhood. Yet my daughter is a narcissist. Personal feelings/impressions & subjectiveness are definitely at play here. I don’t know. 🤷♀️ Thats just my personal opinion and thoughts on the matter.
Having 2 parents, 2 ex’s, 2 would be ex’s, two in law parents and one son in law N’s, 3 children, 2 in law parents and myself E’s, and possibly one daughter and her husband who may be Normals, my numbers are way off the norm! And looking at the bigger picture of my extended family and my friends, these percentages would remain similar. I attribute it to being a narc magnet who decided long ago not to tolerate them as friends. And my influence that took precedence over my exes in our children’s lives, both by way of time spent and desire to influence. Neither of my exes were interactive parents, thank God. So, I have to trust HG’s numbers with regard to this, and I do. But, my numbers here are part of what still makes going into the dating world frightening for me, another hurdle to get over.
TS, I feel like in my personal life experience, 16% seems really low. My numbers feel more like 80% narc, 15% empath and 5% normal. In my specific household, its actually an equal split. But then when I start adding in mine and my husband’s family members, the narc percentage gets higher. If I add friends, that narc percentage gets even higher.
Now that I can recognize narcissists, any news ones that come along, I definitely side step them as well. I avoid them like the plague.
Narcs: 17 percent
Empaths: 33 percent
Normals: 50 percent
For everyone who couldn’t be bothered
Yeah very interesting that for every narc there are about 2 empaths
Guys there’s more of us we can fight them 🥊
BC30,
I tend to agree with you. If there’s an empath parent I think the child will be inclined to become an empath rather than a normal, assuming that empath is the primary care giver. Even perhaps if he / she isn’t.
In my case my father is undoubtedly an empath, my mother a highly narcissistic normal, highly self centred, attention seeking, and high in envy. I remember my dad telling me when I was younger that My mum was ‘jealous’ of me, my life, places I was going etc. As a mother myself, I find that difficult to comprehend. When the chips are down though, she does come through, she definitely cares about both me and my dad.
My dad worked away a lot when I was growing up. Sometimes just Mon-Fri other times, for a few months at a time. The narcissistic normal was therefore the primary care giver in my case. Likely why I developed my reasonably high narcissistic traits and stubbornness. I do clearly carry the empath gene from my father, so I turned empath rather than normal.
I have considered, that my mother might be a narcissist, to be honest it is by and large irrelevant. I cut off mentally from my mum around the age of 12/13. I do all of the right things, I visit, I call, I care, but there is no emotional investment from my side. Once I turn off, I turn off and I am unable to turn back on. If she was a narcissist, it would make no material difference to the way I conduct myself around her.
I’m sure HG’s figures are correct. I do find it strange though, that I can only point to three empaths in my lifetime. One was even a 60 minute encounter, that was all, so I don’t think it’s that I don’t recognise my own kind necessarily. I will accept that my expectations of people are high though. It’s possible that for me to classify someone as an empath, I expect them to feel like my dad. His empathy is higher than my own without a doubt. So, I’m possibly setting a very high threshold to categorise someone as an empath.
As an empath I’m likely to draw in more narcs and narcissistic normals than I am other empaths. Also a possibility. This might skew my view also. Similarly though, HG will also draw in more empaths, than narcs or normals, so his view might also be skewed, if I base my observations on this idea.
Suffice to say, for whatever reason, I don’t believe I encounter empaths often at all, certainly not at a rate of almost 1 in 3 meetings, which is why the number feels high.
Congratulations on your year No Contact by the way! 🏎💨💨😂
Leigh,
Yes, I can imagine it really does feel to you that the narcissist number is higher. To BC30 the empath number feels higher. It must be to do with the familial starting point. If you take a home environment with a familial narc, then the chances of other narcissists and also empaths appearing within extended family goes up. Offspring, siblings etc. Then add in partners as these core family members get older, again, narc draws empath, empath draws narc. So the family circle becomes populated with more narcs and empaths. BC30 with both parents being empaths also likely has empath siblings and so on who risk drawing narcs into the circle.
I have no siblings, never knew my grand parents. The starting point for me is one empath, one normal that’s it, who bred an empath. My family circle excludes narcs. My exposure is more limited. Not being an ACON hints at there being less of an immediate draw to narcissists. Behaviours seem strange to me where they wouldn’t seem strange to an ACON who knows no different, having been under narc influence whilst growing up.
Perhaps it’s the familial starting point that makes the difference in perspective as to how the population is split between narcs normals and empaths. The next environments then fall to social, work, romantic. My husband, narcissistic normal ( like mum!) so no narc children. Work experience, yes, I recognise narcs through my work history. A few narcs in my current extended social circle but none close.
Empaths, or lack thereof still feels like an anomaly. I should be able to point to them in my work and social circles, like I can the narcs. I come up empty handed.
Its fascinating how its different for all of us.
For me, Normals are the anomaly. But you’re right its because narcs attract empaths and vice versa. So why would there be normals around me when so many are narcs? I don’t have a lot of empaths around me either. It feels like there is a lot of narc on narc action. That actually pleases me!
Interesting to read your experiences.
Remembering the years at school it is apparent to me that the normals are the majority..
In my family I guess it’s roughly 50/50 Es and Ns.
Hey Jasmin,
Yes, it was interesting getting the different experiences on this thread 🙂
I wonder also if location has anything to do with prevalence of narcissists. Narcissists need people for fuel, they need a variety of hunting grounds. Maybe they have these needs better met in cities rather than in countryside locations? Difficult to get fuel on a country walk!
TS!
Your last paragraf reminded of when I reed sittning target. After reading through the looong list of the hunting grounds I thougt:
-‘They are everywhere!’
Short there after.
-‘Except in nature.’
I recognise that they will visit but in our company. I struggle to see a narc walking in the forest alone. Like it serves no purpose to them!
I think it is correct that most narcs perfer places with plenty of people = more fuel opportunity. I can see a victim narc with a small fuelmatrix living with his IPPS on the countryside though..
Jasmin,
It does seem logical doesn’t it? Fewer hunting grounds etc. I agree, once the narc has his IPPS and fuel matrix in place then a country location is definitely possible, if not preferable, more isolated lifestyle, less competition, fewer threats to control,
City life tends to be more materialistic, more see and be seen, essentially it’s man made, a created reality to begin with. The countryside is the natural reality. Overall the city itself is narcissistic, with venues being created for pleasure and entertainment. The city seems like the natural habitat for the lesser spotted narcissist!
Xx
The city also seems like the natural habitat for the somatic narcissist!
I definitely believe that there are patterns when it comes to where narcissists choose to live and that it differs depending on the school and cadre. Probably even the classes.
My guess is that the lower ranked narcissists are more likely to live on the countryside and the higher ranked very likely to live in the city.
Victim cadre more likely to live on the countryside whilst somatic is drawn to town.
Nomadic wants lot of new fresh targets – perfer crowded places.
Anchor who keeps his IPPS may find the benefits of living on the countryside more appealing.
Largest school Mid Range.
Largest cadre somatic.
It seems logic that more narcs are found in cities.
Funny, I grew up in a small tow on an island. The island has a lot of small villages and every village has this very known ‘angry’ (most time) man. Watch out for ‘Billy’!😂
Witch, let’s do it! Let’s take them out!
@Leigh
I have repressed anger and I feel like there’s going to be a day when I’ll snap and slam the palm of hand against someone’s nose who is likely to be a narcissist
Witch, I’m right there with you!
@Witch, I’m the same! I’m not violent at all but these thoughts happen sometimes! It gets worse when I’m around one too. Haha, the other day I practiced my 👉 pointing, and dry “Haw-haw.”. This may save someone getting smacked at some point!
That’s a really good point Jasmin.
Location might well tie in with schools and cadres as you say. Schools link loosely to income so certain areas within cities will be a draw for different schools.
Agree also the Somatic and Elite might well be drawn to cities for the greater number of hunting grounds. The construction of the fuel matrix also should influence location. Lower echelon might have more emphasis on family members so will be in striking distance of those.
That plays in to the countryside idea too. Certainly in my location there have been families here for generations. Everyone seems to be someone else’s cousin, brother in law, uncle etc!
You made me laugh with your comment about where you grew up. Similar for me here, the arsehole sticks out like a sore thumb, brash, loud, likely the lesser narcissist!
Thank you TS!
I think that we got something. The family distance for a N with reliance on family members is a good point as well.
“Everyone seems to be someone else’s cousin, brother in law, uncle ect.”
Remembered me of when visiting a new friend for the first time and she presented me to a older sibling.
-This is my sister and cousin.
I couldn’t get my head around it and surly lookt very confused.
– We have the same mother and therfore she’s my sister. Her father is my uncle and therefore she’s also my cousin.
The bridge between the island and the mainland was built in 1972 so people that lived on the island had been very isolated. The hostility was generally low almost the islanders. We learned at school that the island had a higher percentage of mentally retarded as a result of inbreeding.
My mother moved there 1992 (I was 6). However we lived in the small town that had formed next to the bridge, mainly inhabited by immigrants.
I’m sure a lot has happened on the island the last 20 years though.
Now I left the N subject but I can’t help to feel a bit astonished that they were so left behind in a quite modern time..!
Hello HG, Im rather reluctant comment about heritable traits as I am no expert, I simply became interested after reading your work on GPD and LOCE. Yet it may be helpful for others that want to know more about how this works so I’ll touch some high points and include a link on an empathy study. In general, genetics and heritability is a very complex area of study and much is unknown.
Terms:
* Gene – a section of DNA that contains the genetic material for one characteristic
* Allele – a particular form of a gene. One allele is received from each parent
* Genotype – the combination of the two alleles that are received from an individual’s parents
* Phenotype – the physical/behavioral expression of the gene which is determined by both the genotype and the environment
* Heterozygous – a genotype with two different alleles
* Homozygous – a genotype with two of the same alleles
A brief overview of how genetics play out may be helpful for those who have not had the opportunity to take a deeper look into heritability. When we talk about GDP and LOCE, what we are really referring to is the phenotype or physical or behavioral expression of the genes determined by both genotype and the environment. Since there is no single gene that is responsible for empathy or NPD/APD, it is not as simple as if a mother and father are either empathic or NPD that the child will be the same. One may inherit an allele from one or even both parents and it may never become expressed due to environment (even true with APD as is evidenced by the case of James Fallon and his research).
In the area of empathy, a 2018 study utilizing a self-report method measure of empathy quotient (“EQ”), developed 15 years earlier at Cambridge University to evaluate both the identification and experience of other emotions and the ability to respond with appropriate emotions, utilizing twins as subjects, the results indicated that empathy is only partly due to genetics. It was also noted that women scored slightly higher than men in EQ, however, this was not due to genetics, but hormones (primarily oxytocin) and socialization. The study concluded that only 1/10 of the variance in degree of empathy of any individual was due to genetic factors. (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312085124.htm)
No single gene or even a set of genes is responsible for the state of being empathetic or narcissistic or even APD (Note: see also how the human brain develops and the influences on behavior). Even in the presence of one genetic allele or a pair, this does not ensure genetic expression (necessary for the attribute to be experienced/demonstrated). Expression of the alleles must be present for genetic expression of the trait. Hope this is helpful for all.
WokeAF, and because they’re wrong and we’re right! Hahah
Sometimes it feels that there are more than 1 in 6. Not sure if that’s just because of the things I do and places I go. I often find myself when sitting in conferences or meetings and even the gym just looking around the room counting up who is an N, who is an E, EbnE, NbnN or normal. It often seems to be around 50% N (much higher at the gym) 40%E with 10% of of others thrown in.
HG are there similar numbers of Es as Ns? 1 in 6?
Higher number.
That’s an interesting question, what is the ratio of the other 5/6 ppl? As far as E’s or normals
Broadly speaking, there are double the amount of normals to empaths.
I imagine us empaths clump up too. Lol.
So an empath would think the world was full of narcissists and other empaths -bc that’s the vibe we travel in
While normals wouldn’t grasp how many narcissists are out there, not would they have loads of empath friends etc
This is probably partly why so many can’t see what we see with the narcissists, unless we point out behaviors, then they seem to a bit better. But if they aren’t around it, or if they aren’t affected the same way by it, which normals are not, they wouldn’t see it. And that’s not even taking into account ET which causes denial also. Interesting thought here, thank you.
HG, Thank you for providing a link to this post on your AVRN post (I had missed this previously). This really resonated with me. For some of us, we were told by our N family that we are too sensitive, too caring, or not enough, etc., so it would be only natural to doubt our inner voice or have a skewed internal filter. What makes matters worse is the effective N facade and volte face. The outside world never sees the real N. They see the facade. To Phoenix’s point, those under the influence of the N facade never see the real person nor their very real acts of cruelty or manipulation, they see only what the N portrays. Therefore, they unwittingly do the N’s bidding thinking they are being kind, fair, supportive. This creates doubt and guilt in the E. The volte face reinforces this doubt because what is white one moment is black the next. I very much agree it does no good to explain things to others or to try and gain their understanding. Best we can do it take care of ourselves; tell the truth (make no excuses for the N); and when others interfere, thank them for their concern, but be true to ourselves and make choices to lead a healthy N free life. Life is too short to waste on manipulation and emotional turmoil. Being N free is far more fulfilling. Thank you again, HG, for exposing every detail of narcissism. Your impact is life-changing.
You’re most welcome
Phoenix,
“I’ve found that once you’ve experienced narc behaviour, developed an understanding of what narcissism is and really tuned in to your alarm system – other people, other empaths can remain a problem”
This is such a good observation. And what you describe plays out in so many ways. The narcissists in my life have used fellow empaths (family members and friends) to try to get me – hoovers by proxy) and these behaviors are so challenging because the Empath involved feels compelled to act on behalf of the narcissist and I find it difficult to respond in a way that doesn’t cause additional hurt to that Empath’s feelings..
This is a great warning. My ex may try to use my children to get to me, if he is not content with what he’s getting from them, or elsewhere. So far no signs of that, thank God, but I must be vigilant about NC.
Perfect description WokeAF
I’ve been thinking about my instincts (recognition of red flags as you describe) being LT and my excuses for behaviour or acceptance of his excuses as ET. This makes me feel calmer as there was a time when I was questioning all of my instincts and judgement and that created such a lot of anxiety.
I feel like I was trained to question my own instincts right from the beginning. What a horrible thing to do to a child.
I’ve found that once you’ve experienced narc behaviour, developed an understanding of what narcissism is and really tuned in to your alarm system – other people, other empaths can remain a problem:
Other empaths: “Why are you ignoring so and so?”
Me: “They sent me a bit of an innapropriate message/did something that I found to be a little innapropriate and I’d rather not deal with them. I think they might be a narcissist”
Other empaths: Aw, but you don’t know what they’ve been going through. You don’t really know that though, do you? You shouldn’t judge people like that”..and so on..
Valid observation Phoenix and that is why ultimately you have to focus on your own defences and not be concerned about persuading others who do not understand. You can explain once but ultimately if the empath does not understand, they will, as an empathic person, respect your choice as to why you are not engaging with that person.
True. I’ve stopped trying to convince people, I realise that it’s mostly futile. Great work
Thank you.
My kids respecting my choice to not engage, even by hearing about their father, is a great sign to me, given this comment. Having explained once to them, and more than once certain things, I need to leave it there and allow them to learn on their own.
I had others tell me to just let them (both narcs) spoil me. I have also always been very critical, and not knowing narc 1 one was really a narc when I divorced him, there was a part of me that thought maybe my critical and overly analytical nature had played a part in his ridiculous abuse. I wore that noose of guilt you have written about into my relationship with narc 2. Who presented differently. Mid-ranger. I saw the red flags, alarms went off, again I hit snooze button and thought this time I will be less critical, watch and wait, don’t overthink. Big mistake.
My personal epiphany that has served me well is
If you find yourself saying .
.-“Who would DO that?!”
It’s a narcissist.
I point this out to friends often. They tell me if some behaviour- and I ask if it’s logical. Getting them to see it’s NOT is awesome bc they have this “a-ha!” look come over them.
Recently a friend explained a weird instance of behaviour and I got her to see that since the explanation given by the narc wasn’t LOGICAL- it probably wasn’t the full truth . The “a-ha” look was princess. “I didn’t even think of that!” She said.
Yup. LOGIC.
My alarm system was always correct and I overlooked it bc
A) I didn’t understand the narc didn’t “love” me and so therefore tried to abide his toxic logic
B) I didn’t think I could do any better (due to my age, looks, income, location)
C) I didn’t want to believe my alarm bells bc I liked the narc too much
and
D) I wasn’t crystal clear on the difference between my alarm bells and just plain old anxiety/excitement
This is a great comment. It makes so much sense.
Totally agree.
Best,
DB
Thanks HG I cant believe you know so much about empathic individuals. Observing your victims must have really helped out. Not a single therapist would know these things like you thats why I do not go to one.. Knowing about their gut feelings and writing about everything. You are definitely a mind reader. Congrats!
I watch. I listen. I assess.
It is in my nature and I have been trained this way.
Very intelligent I might add. Do N have empathetic traits since Empaths have narcissistic traits . I thought I would ask since listening is an empathetic trait .
No, we do not have empathic traits.
Thank you HG! I do appreciate everything you do on your blog and consultations. I find that empathetic in my book. I do however understand that they dont have empathetic traits, they sure fake it though . If it wasnt for you I could never tell . Hugs
That is tragic and a pity. In my mind’s eye I see your heart, with all of this beautiful, golden knowledge, trapped behind a plate of glass… wanting to perhaps tap on the glass but not able to even do so much as that.
You are so unbelievably tuned in to the emotions of others that if you had empathy… you might possibly be the most perfect and beautiful human being in existence.
I’m sad thinking of it but I’m not sad for you because I know you would not have it any other way.
Interesting word choice… trained.
Accurate word choice.
I wonder if I was trained (inherently emotionally built upon past interactions with a narcmom, Narcex, father of my child, and a narcexboss) to act & explode as my super empath self did (several times- hence why he (my one year former lover narc) thinks I am the narcissist or was it a learned reactionary response to being pushed too far as a solid empath super nova?!
HG, you can read victims’ mind better than a psychic.
Naturally and just like psychics, they don’t see me coming.
If you ask a lesser,mid,greater how good they are at reading people out of 10 say, would the greater be Morley likely to be modest like a 6/6.5. And why? To give the illusion they don’t?
Depends on the context.
Ugh both annoying and wrong. But I know the answer anyway. I just like to hear you say it.
My Lesser father used to say that he could “read anyone”. Truth is, HE DID NOT HAVE A F*%*ING CLUE. He had three or four basic categories he would put people into. Example: woman wearing short skirt and high heels = whore. Man wearing fitting clothes = homosexual.
EmP
Thanks for the laugh (although I know you were being serious in that that’s what he thought).
Haha
This is so very interesting. 25 years in and I’m still vulnerable to the fog that sweeps in and I get lost in it, even though HG you showed me what i was dealing with 3 years ago when I came across this site. Every day away from him is a win. Every day of no contact I praise myself.
Well done for maintaining no contact.
Great work, HG, as if you were listening to my thoughts.
Thanks to your education I found out about our boss having a narcissistic personality, too.
Today there was a staff meeting without the school administration, because of all the problems with his authoritarian and manipulative management style.
Since my abuser was in the room, I tried to name facts and explain the principle’s personality without my narc feeling addressed.
(By the way, my colleagues were quite impressed about my comprehensive knowledge….)
I’m afraid, I couldn’t manage and expect the certainly coming next hard triangulation scene and other wellknown forms of devaluation.
So then I find myself working with my narcissistic abuser and his current IPPS under a narcissistic principal.
But my logical thinking is winning fights against my emotional thinking day by day and I will leave this year as a different person than I used to be.
I wouldn’t have managed without my reading lessons here in your blog.
Thank you for your work, HG Tudor.
You are welcome FF.
Question to everyone:
Today the IPPS asked me for a conversation, because “our friendship and me as a person were too important for her”, so that she would dare to step over my request to cancel contact.
I was too surprised and overwhelmed to reject her, additionally I have watched her devaluation on facebook already.
I just can’t imagine him to want that conversation, because I only need to put my phone on the table with our communication open and she would see what she is sleeping with.
His manipulation in my direction continued directly after they were in a formal relationship.
Or do you think, this conversation was the narc’s idea, sending her to give me a final kill?
I trust nobody anymore who tells me, I was important for him/her because of me as a person (although I know her as an empath). I’m quite confused.
You are confused because your emotional thinking is still high because you are continuing to engage with the narcissist. Arrange a consultation with me and I will assist you in terms of perfecting your no contact regime, removing your confusion and explaining what is happening in these interactions.
This one should be flashing on billboards around the world! It is spot on as they say over the pond. The many reasons for overlooking the alarm bell are described in other articles by HG. Maybe If I try a little harder, who wants to start over again at this point in life, but the sex is so fabulous can I do without that?, There’s nobody else out there that I really want to date, I will just start emotionally detaching and looking for another while I gradually separate from the narcissist. For those that are married and have families involved and children… It gets even more difficult to leave.
Intermittent reinforcement is a tough addiction to break. Thanks again H G I love the lists😊
Good observations, Kathleen, in terms of further examples.
I’ve shared this one and have reached out to the Daily Mail. This really has to hit the mainstream!
Thank you Joanne, I appreciate your efforts in seeking to bring my work to a wider audience which very much needs this information.
You know what, HG, after your poll on retaliation the other day, I’ve been thinking that instead of dreaming of taking him down by way of empowering his ex (something which I’ll never even do), I should apply my efforts toward spreading the word everywhere.
That is the application of logic Joanne.
HG, you need to become a therapist if you aren’t one slready. The way you explain things is really helpful.
Thank you Maria. I am not one. I would actually be hindered if I was a therapist in providing solutions to people. I am hugely effective for my readers in the way that I operate now through the manner in which I write and the information provided in consultations, but I appreciate the sentiment of what you have written.
I was in marriage therapy with my Narc (before GOSO) for over a yr.
It made me feel worse! Today’s couple therapists need education. They don’t focus on the Narc’s behavior. If that is never addressed, the couciling is a stage for blame shifting, devalue you whilst snowing the therapist FGS!
I was never separately talked to about the possibly of getting out. Hindsight, it was extremely dangerous to just gloss over what was happening to ME amidst the Narc’s behavior.
Counseling was another avenue of entertainment and manipulation for my ex. In fact,he wanted to be re embersed his co pays for that therapy in the divorce. You can’t make this stuff up.
By the grace of happenstance I found this site.
Welcome Kensey, you will find freedom here. keep reading.
Well stated Kensey. You get accurate answers here. Most therapists are unhelpful at best and harmful at worst. Way more bang for your buck here when you’re dealing with a narcissist.
MB—most therapists are as helpful as tits on a boar. Like they are enlightened Buddha figures! It’s a f*^%### joke.
Lorelei, I’ve always said tits on a bull. I’ve been saying it wrong my whole life!
Haha—now you know.
The narc never directly told me “you need to respond to me immediately”, “you need to do exactly what I want or I’ll leave”, “you must never ask me for support”, “I don’t have time for your problems”, etc, but I always felt this way. Since he never said those things I though it was me being paranoid. And, sure enough, he discarded me as soon as I stood up to him and started expecting him to be there for me.
Yup, ^^^^^^THIS ^^^^^^^.
Most of the people that were turned onto NPD as the cause of relationship woes had to Google cheating, ghosting, sleep rape, whatever it may be. If this were to be shared in the mainstream, people would know what that feeling is before it got to such a critical point. It’s a wonderful article to introduce people to HGs work. This will resonate with nearly everyone that reads it.
The first time I ever came across the words ‘sleep rape’ was during reading SATN. I was quite shocked as I was unaware that people considered that to be rape. It has happened to me, as I awoke to men having sex with me, and I enjoyed it and encouraged it. I don’t know how often it may have happened that I did not wake up.
Even when I was a little out of control and my biker boyfriend would carry me out of the situation to undress me somewhere and have sex with me, I never considered that a rape. I only now understand that other people might.
I assume not many women agree with my views on sexuality. I’m not sure what drives my sexuality and perhaps others consider it unusual; maybe even depraved. I really don’t know. It also is often contradictory to my own main persona. Do you have any thoughts to add on this?
Are you asking me or MB?
Either or both. I would appreciate your opinion on this issue.
I need more information from you to be able to provide you with accurate input and invite you to arrange a consultation with me for the purposes of discussing this.
Thank you Mr. Tudor. I will arrange for an email consultation.
Jolly good, I look forward to assisting you.
Njfilly, I had never heard of sleep rape until I got here. I have very little sexual experience so I am definitely not the one to comment. I don’t judge anybody’s sexual preferences or how they choose to enjoy themselves as long as it doesn’t involve children or animals.
Thank you for your response.
Same, the term was unknown to me also until I arrived here. I had told my friend what he did and she called it rape, but I allowed my ET to suffocate that word and accept his explanation. He never even apologized.
I watched the original (1968) version of “Rosemary’s Baby” the other day starring Mia Farrow, written and directed by Roman Polanski (who appears to be somewhat of a sexual deviant). I was shocked to see how non-chalantly a ‘sleep rape’ was portrayed in that movie and how Mia Farrow accepted her husband’s explanation of the rape. Basically, she was out of it (drugged), he felt like it, and so took what he felt entitled to take. I hadn’t seen a movie before where such an act was portrayed, nor with that level of callousness on the man’s part and acceptance on the woman’s. It’s obviously come out of an era where such acceptance was deemed an appropriate response, or was it just that Polanski deemed it appropriate for the sake of his film? It was, after all, a horror, and that was just one part that completed the horror for me.
I have never watched that movie, I don’t know how I would feel seeing that. Some men years ago, even into the 80’s and 90’s, did feel these things, especially in a marriage, were their right. As sick as that is to us now.
AV, I was quite shocked when I saw it, especially in the era it was made … or maybe that’s not so shocking as it’s also the era when things began ‘opening up’ due to the ‘sexual revolution’. The fact Polanski felt free to make that association and get away with it, though I’m not sure of the film’s rating at the time. But also, it’s something that has never been apparent to me until hearing of it here, and the timing is actually very odd. I’d never seen the movie, the issue is raised there and I find a matching conversation around it here.
What are the chances in terms of the timing?
I struggle to understand how you wouldn’t be wakened during the experience. Or is it that you wake up during and it’s too late to protest? Obviously this hasn’t happened to me, so apologies for seeking to dig deeper to understand if that is uncomfortable for anyone, The only way I can imagine it is if you’ve been drugged first, or drunk, so your resistance levels are very low or virtually non-existent. I also imagine this is much different to being wakened early morning to foreplay for a more intimate moment. I always see rape as a fundamentally violent scenario, but I’m not sure of any level of violence involved and assume it rests more on the matter of consent.
Rosemary certainly didn’t consent, being too drugged to be able to give her permission. Her husband informed her afterwards as they were trying to conceive and he used that as his excuse, knowing she was ovulating at the time. Lame. The whole thing reeked of misogyny.
I will try to reply in DC, if my comment goes through.
Just adding in something extra I came across today, once again courtesy of the DM.
There is rare condition known as “sexsomnia” where a person does not know that they are performing sex acts or making sexual noises during their sleep. They literally are not responsible for their actions and a comparison can be made to sleepwalking. As I mentioned, it’s rare, but unbelievable how these things keep turning up at the same time we are having a conversation about them. Apparently potential trigger factors are alcohol intake and erratic sleep patterns and they align with head jerks during sleep.. Identifying the triggers are critical because of the potential personal and legal consequences. What a bombshell! I think you would need to have some heavy proof if you were going to use this excuse in Court.
Is the legal definition of rape whether a person can make a conscious decision to engage sexually or not? I don’t know, I will look it up. But, in any event, when it happened to me, I did not want it, definitely constitutes rape and I still went on to marry that pos several years later, such was my ET! Though, thank God he never did that again. He’s such an asshole.
Hi AV,
I forgot I posted that comment. In a way I regret having revealed so much about myself and my past on this blog. My life was coming into such sharp focus so quickly I felt I needed to vent to get it out of my head or my head might explode. I was in shock at everything I had experienced while dazed and confused in my drug induced coma, attempting to numb the pain. I’m not positive it was helpful, even though I thought it would be. Instead, I feel like I lost my sense of privacy. Like I laid myself naked on a table for everyone to see. It’s very strange that I feel this way since this is only one blog where I have revealed things about myself, and not everybody reads my comments, but it is still so contrary to the private, quiet, and distanced way I have lived my life. It feels very awkward and vulnerable. Although I have just recently revealed another issue from my past, I think I may be done with sharing about myself, and I have not shared everything. It’s hard to determine because some things I read here resonate with me and I feel compelled to interact. I assume you understand since it appears many of us go though these same phases with our sharing and interacting here. My plan is to busy myself with my own life to the degree that I no longer have time for the blog, and no longer care. No offense to the blog and it’s members, I’m just considering what might be best for me and my future. How do you feel about having revealed personal issues about yourself on this blog?
I think you are correct about the legal definition of rape. I’m sorry you experienced that, and for whatever you went through in your marriage. I hope you have escaped so you can heal.
I’m still trying to untwist myself and my twisted sexuality.
Hi NJFilly, I do understand. There have only been a couple of times I might have regretted. Because I am anonymous, I don’t think much of it. And though HG knows who I am, he’s too busy to care. I mostly think, if someone can be helped, I don’t mind putting it out there. If anyone was evil enough to try to figure out who I am and use anything against me, I doubt they’d find much to use really, I mean, given the big picture, we ACONs are victims more than anything and our responses to that victimization are what is here, it’s what brought us here, along with our healing processes, which I’m happy to share that part.
I do very much see the sense in getting on with real life at this point. And that does mean less time for online things. But if I share my thoughts, experiences or whatever, I’m okay doing so, others can ignore or reply, as they wish.
Thank you for your sadness for me, thankfully I am long since away from my ex. Like you, I am still trying to untwist those aspects of myself that remain twisted, I want to be as whole as us possible for me, whatever that might look like in the end.
Thank you for your reply and for being on the blog, I have benefited from your presence here.
True MB! I never knew what NPD was Until I started googling things I was experiencing with the narc. It’s such a bummer when you figure it out and have invested so much of your heart… I didn’t want to just walk away without giving it a try and then I probably got more addicted while trying to figure out what the heck was going on. It’s amazing how my anxiety level has gone to just about zero again. Thinking back about how all of the uncertainty caused so much anxiety and fog.
MB
Exactly. Awareness that NPD exists and that it is far more prevalent than one would imagine, would definitely help to eliminate all the guesswork and self-blame….or at least reduce it. In my case, I had the exposure to narcissism via the experiences with my stepfather, so I made the connection as soon as we entered “Stranger Mode.” Maybe if NPD was part of my everyday awareness I wouldn’t have ignored all the alarm bells going off inside me right from the beginning.
One of the best! This really resonated with me.
Your ability to see our perspective is quite amazing.
I know. Thank you.
HG Tudor – super genius
I agree.
So so true. I said most of these before I got an inkling anything was a miss and when I was in the NIPSS pre DLS stage. Didn’t realise what it was until way after escape and on the way to healing.
Just before the end I began to get a rash on my chest and neck and I would shake if I was near him. I thought it was adrenaline and excitement. Now I know differently.
Wow. That used to happen to me.
So true HG. It’s validating to have you explain exactly how we feel and to educate us on what is taking place. Looking back on my engagements with narcs, there were signs from the beginning that something wasn’t right yet I was so quick to overlook them/explain them away. Thank you for educating us on what we’re fighting and giving us the tools to GOSO.
You are welcome. This is the only place to receive the right tools to succeed.
Perfect article for sharing!
Indeed MB.