You Are Being Conned





Once upon a time. The Princess and the Pea. Prince Charming. Snow White. Pretty Woman. Barbie and Ken. The Waltons. Hug you from behind. Breakfast in bed. Picking you up in the rain. Glimpsing you from a train and running after you. The Fabulous Baker Boys. Roman Holiday. Bouquets. Surrounded by your loving family as you pass away. Snow at Christmas. Remembered birthdays. The Little House on the Prairie. Beauty and the Beast. A Room With a View. City breaks. Walking in the foam. Holding hands. Growing old together. Gone With the Wind. The white knight. Crazy For You. The Passion. Spooning in bed. Monogamy. Rosanna. Love Me Tender. Truly Madly Deeply. A candlelit bath. The Best. Gift on the pillow. Save the Best For Last. Impromptu lunch. Dancing cheek to cheek. Someday my prince will come. Red roses. White roses. Opening doors. Up Where We Belong. Romeo and Juliet. Holding your hair. You’re the First, My Last, My Everything. Writing ‘I Love You’ in the steamed up mirror. Endless Love. I Think I Love You. Dedicating a song on the radio. Father Figure. The Power of Love. Fairytale wedding. Carved initials on a tree inside a heart. Giving you the last Rolo. Love conquers all. Love will save the day. Love’s young dream. Love is a many splendored thing. Writing poems. Love notes in a lunch box. A message in the sand. Till death do us part. Together forever. Bright young things. Never Tear Us Apart. Soulmate. Other half. My Heart Will Go On. Bridget Jones’ Diary. I’ll Stand By You. Children. A Whole New World. Paris in the spring time. Lazing in a hammock together. A log cabin by the lake. The Notebook. The Spider man kiss. Notting Hill. Rose and Jack. Letting you sleep in. Bella and Edward. Latika and Jamal. Dirty Dancing. Leading the dancing. Remembering anniversaries. In sickness and in health. When Harry Met Sally. Synchronised orgasms. Sex in the morning. Sex in the evening. Still having sex after all these years. Fidelity. Eyes only for you. An Officer and a Gentleman. Isla and Rick. Letting you first. Knowing you hate spiders. Viola and William. Stardust. Walking in the snow together. Walking through leaves together. Edward Scissorhands. Just the Way You Are. My Girl. Annie’s Song. Matching tattoos. Wearing a wedding band. I Will Always Love You. When a Man Loves a Woman. I Don’t Wanna Miss a Thing. Love is blind. Absence makes the heart grow fonder. The perfect match. Our love is predestined. It was written in the stars above. Love at first sight. Mr/Mrs Right, “My one and only,” “man/woman of my dreams,” “match made in heaven,” “love of my life,” “my true love,” “made for each,” “my perfect match,” “I met the love of my life,” “I knew this was the one.”  “We were meant for each other.” “instant connection,” “clicked right away,” “chemistry at first sight,” “hit it off right away,” “experienced immediate attraction,” “instant rapport,” “completely hit it off,” “it was magical,” “you put a spell on me” . Love is a river that drowns the tender reed. The perfect house. The country idyll. Home is where the heart is. Wuthering Heights. Jayne Eyre. Twilight. The Hunger Games. Gabriel’s Inferno. Water for Elephants. Warming the bed first. Investigating a bump in the night. Holding you during a storm. Never being taken for granted. Perfection. Having it all. The Happy Ever After.

False promises and unrealistic ideals created by them.

A gateway to the false promised land, to the unrealistic ideal life offered and exploited by us.

Resorting to self-destructive and addictive behaviours in order to compensate for these failings and disappointments by becoming entangled with us again and again and again. That’s you.

Who is to blame?

263 thoughts on “You Are Being Conned

  1. Getting There says:

    Mommypino, I have to tell you that you have a great way of expressing things!
    In my previous message to you I actually wrote and deleted a paragraph on the fact that narcissists do good. You stated it in a way that really hit the heart!

    Just recently I had a situation and it was my ex- husband who “came to the rescue.” HG has done, and is doing, all of this. Yes it is for his legacy but the good that is coming of it will live for a long time. The cost of your mom’s good was against you at times, and I am sorry that happened to you!
    It’s interesting that what many narcissists do is subconscious; they don’t choose. HG worked out that aspect. Who is to say that future research doesn’t say that empaths are driven by a subconscious blah blah blah. I hope that wouldn’t take away from the good we do either.

    1. MommyPino says:

      Hello Getting There,

      I totally agree with you on narcissists also doing good. And I totally agree regarding HG and his legacy. He will change a lot of people’s lives even after we’re all gone. He has already provided so much groundbreaking knowledge in such a short amount of time. It will also change how society looks at narcissism and human behaviors. And HG has also pinpointed how a lot of the empath’s self destructive behaviors are caused by empathic traits that are being high jacked by narcissistic traits. I have always thought about that in an intuitive way just like most of us but HG is so brilliant to dissect it in such a thorough way.

      Thank you for your kind compliments. I am really grateful to all of your kind and encouraging words towards me. I hope that you will feel better ASAP and get enough rest. If you need to talk about what happened on Friday I am always here. And if you don’t want to talk about it that is perfectly fine too. Do what feels best for you and make sure you have enough rest and self care. I hope that your weekend is enjoyable and peaceful to you. ❤️❤️❤️

      1. Getting There says:

        You are so sweet, Mommypino!! Thank you!

        Unfortunately this is something I can’t discuss but thank you for being willing to listen! I believe it will all turn out ok; I am putting my trust in God. You are right that sleep helps. I had multiple conversations today about the importance of sleep and none of them sparked by me saying I was tired. LOL All conversations can be wrapped up into the summary that the mind and body need sleep.

        This weekend I was supposed to meet up with that one guy who acts like a victim. He canceled it with some lousy excuse, and I was so excited! I would have originally felt bad before about not being there for someone who is going through a hard time and just needs to talk, but right now I don’t feel bad. I’m hoping he realizes that I am not worth the energy even as a NISS. I hope you had a peaceful and enjoyable weekend!

        I’m glad you found my comment! I didn’t mean to put this up here but think now think it was a fortunate mistake as I was spending a bit of time looking for the “reply” button.

        1. MommyPino says:

          Hello Getting There, I totally understand that you cannot talk about it here. And I’m glad that you are feeling better and rested. Sleep definitely is super important for our mental health. I know for me personally that when I feel like it’s the end of the world regarding something then after I had a good sleep I wake up wondering what I was thinking and why I was overwhelmed.

          By the way, have you heard of the racist tweet that Claire McCaskill sent about Ben Carson? I think that it is sad that she is not even aware of how racist her remark was. Ben Carson is an amazingly talented and brilliant person and very handsome as well and I love that he did not played the victim with his race and he strove to be amazingly great at his profession so that he could help kids who were suffering and not so that he could be above others. I love his statement about race when he said that whenever he operated on a black person and a white person’s brains they both look the same under that skin (or something like that because I can’t remember the exact quote). I think that when politicians hate someone because that person belongs to a group of people that they believe should automatically align with them, that is lack of empathy and objectification.

        2. MommyPino says:

          Hi Getting There,

          I just remembered to ask you something but you don’t have to reply right away. I am just wondering how you are doing with your struggle with closure regarding the friend who crossed your boundaries and you disengaged from without explanation. Do you still feel the same or has your struggle been decreasing in time?

          I have done something similar with a group of friends that I had from my last job. Our former boss is an empath and the rest of the group is one empath, two narcissists and one normal. We all eventually left the job and only our former boss remained but we have met on our birthdays every year. One of the narcissists’ birthday was also in January and because of her maneuvers there have been times when my birthday was not celebrated and only hers was. After finding Narcsite and realizing the reason why she has been sabotaging or downplaying my birthdays for years is because my birthday is too close to hers. So I said to the Empath former boss that I will not join the birthday celebrations anymore. I didn’t say goodbye to the rest of them and I remained friends with my former boss. But the narcissist ex friend still kept liking all of my pictures and posts on FB and leaves incredibly flattering comments. I didn’t have the courage to unfriend or block her but I have tried my best to stay disciplined to not like her pictures or posts even if it’s her kids. Her youngest also has a birth defect so even if some of her posts pull my heartstrings I tried my best to not like any of her posts. It was extremely hard for me and it felt like there is also no closure with us because I didn’t say goodbye to her and it was just our former boss who relayed to them that I left the birthday group and why. It eventually became easier to ignore her on social media and recently I noticed that she has stopped liking my posts as well. She also didn’t greet me happy birthday on FB anymore. And weirdly, that made me so happy that she finally disengaged from me. I was so happy and relieved especially when she didn’t greet me on my birthday and also because there is no expectation for me to greet her as well on hers since her birthday is after mine. I think the Emotional Thinking of needing closure eventually dissipates if we just stick to what we have decided no matter what.

          There was another thing recently but slightly different. One lady from church messaged me selling me something. She was doing the annoying sales tactics and I just asked her what her product is. We were not interested so I asked my husband what should I tell her and he said to just tell her that I’m not interested. It felt so cut and dried to me so I added an extra explanation to make it look like I wasn’t just dismissing her and as part of the explanation I have said that we don’t use products like that. She seemed to have been offended and asked me to clarify what I meant by ‘products like that.’ I said, “expensive health products.” And she went on with really long messages and I told my husband what happened and he asked me why did I have to explain instead of just saying to her that I’m not interested? I said that because she goes to church with us and I didn’t want to make her feel ignored or offended. He told me that she didn’t have the right to feel ignored or offended if I am not interested because she was the one who initiated the conversation with me. And he said it in such a simple and unemotional way and I was thinking yeah, it really shouldn’t be that complicated lol. Anyway, he just told me to write to her that regarding our health we just try to eat right and follow the word of wisdom which is apparently something that would shut a Mormon up and it worked. She finally acquiesced and said that the word of wisdom is indeed the best wisdom along with her ending sales spiel. 😊

          1. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            Thank you!
            I had to laugh yesterday as I am very tired and trying not to fall asleep while sitting talking with friends. I started noticing that I was yelling and couldn’t figure out why I was yelling what I was sharing. I do like sleep. It really does change perspective and even attitude, at least with me.

            I hadn’t seen that news until reading your comment. What a sick twist to a Sesame Street line. Ben Carson is an amazing man with such a good heart! I am glad people recognize that calling a person a “thing” is wrong!! I am sure he is used to racism unfortunately. It’s sick that people cannot respect each other as equals. I remember a time where I learned a lesson in how to handle such a situation. My mom was raised a non- Christian faith but she converted to Christianity before she met my dad. While we were raised Christian, I have always been proud of my other culture. One day we were with two “good Christians” who worked with my mom. One decided to share a story that ended up being her perpetuating false negative beliefs of the people of that other faith and culture. I was angry and would have made some clear statements of what a fool I thought she was, but my mom calmly shared how that belief is wrong and shared tenants of the faith that matched what my mom was saying. I realized then that it doesn’t take a sledgehammer to make a difference, and that sometimes people hear so much prejudices that they learn that reacting will get nowhere. It came into play years later when I went to a doctor and shared that I was a descendant of that culture because it can matter for health reasons. He called it a “cult.” I chose to say nothing and never went back. I felt him losing money would be good enough of a response. Well, that and I shared with lots of people his comment hoping he would lose more business. I think Ben Carson is like my mom in that he doesn’t react but will calmly respond if he feels it needs to be done.

            I hope to never understand someone thinking another below them whether it be due to race, gender, religion, class, etc.

            I hope all are staying healthy there! I know it has been a bad time for flu, sinuses, and strep here.

          2. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            That was absolutely horrible that your doctor did that. I’m glad that you fired him and told other people about how ignorant he is. And also that he didn’t get that much fuel from you.

            “Good Christians” who adamantly believe that their way is the only way is not my cup of tea and my husband is the same way. He doesn’t get involved in arguments but when it comes to this, his provocative and argumentative narcissistic traits come to the fore. When we go to church sometimes some Mormons speak of how they need to save as many people as they can by bringing them to the church. My husband would challenge that and say that if God is our father, would he really send away his children just because they belong to a different church? Would you do that to your own kids?

            We had an old Mormon couple neighbor before whom I didn’t really like. I don’t know if they are narcissists or not but they have a lot of MR traits. They were working on trying to bring my husband back to church. He stopped attending the church after his second wife died. He said that his second wife converted to be a Mormon but the people there were so cliquish that she felt lonely most of the time which contributed to her unhappiness. She divorced him because of many factors and he kept on visiting her at her apartment hoping that they will get back together. One of their problems was her addiction to pain killers and which caused a lot of their disagreements because when he found out that she was secretly getting pain killers online in a PO Box and she had several prescriptions from different doctors he urged her to go to rehab and she didn’t want to. She also didn’t like his daughters and the day that she left their house was when she cooked this really nice dinner for them as they were coming home from a school sports event and she called them while they were driving home and when she asked my husband to pass the phone to the kids, the older stepdaughter was very cold to her and she overheard the youngest stepdaughter say to not pass the phone to her because she’s not in the mood to talk to her. So when they got home they could smell the delicious food but the food was in the trash and she’s gone with all of her clothes. Anyway, one time he visited her he found her having a seizure with foam coming out of her mouth and he called 911. She overdosed from the pain killers. They took her to the hospital but since they were not married anymore he couldn’t watch her and they called her mom. They moved her to a farther hospital and then my husband found out that they were going to remove her life support. He drove with his kids as fast as he could to say goodbye but they already took the life support when they got there. Back to the Mormon church, the president of the local chapter or whatever it is called phoned him and said that it is part of his duty to give him his condolences and that infuriated my husband. He told the guy to not call if it’s just because of his duty. So he stopped going to church since then. Anyway, this neighbors were really aggressively being nice to us and visiting a lot with us and inviting us to go back to the church. The husband is so opinionated on how the Mormon church is the only true church etc. and both of them are very active in the church. Well one day my husband was coming out of the post office and was shocked at what he saw. Our holier than though neighbor who is probably 6’4” and extremely overweight was yelling at an old lady because she parked too close to his car and blocked him I think. And my husband was just looking and still in disbelief and then the neighbor saw my husband and instantly the neighbor’s face changed and calmed down and stopped yelling at the little old woman and spoke to her as if he has always been calm with her and then he said hi to my husband. And my husband was just thinking wow!

            I agree with you on Ben Carson. I am not aware of him responding to the racist tweet at all. If he saw it he probably just smiled and shook his head about how stupid people can be and then moved on to things that has value. I have heard that he is doing a really good job in his cabinet position but he seems to be doing it quietly without sensationalizing his accomplishments. I hope that other people will promote his achievements for him so more people can notice him.

          3. Getting There says:

            I’m sorry your coworker ruined the birthday lunch for you! That’s great that you put the boundary up for yourself to not continue with the behavior! I’m sure your previous boss understands! Were you and your previous boss able to go out and celebrate together? Celebration of birthday and freedom with your new boundaries in what you will accept and not!

            Thank you so much for checking! It’s funny as I am finding myself struggling today. I haven’t contacted her but have responded to her few contacts. We have many connections that keep from the door being bolted. Today I questioned whether I am being overly judgmental and unreasonable. I have talked to others and my therapist about it and none feel that I should continue this behavior in my life. It’s not about her specifically, but I worry that I am a hypocrite.

            If only we could be like your husband in some ways! I like the final response you gave and her reaction! It really can be as easy as saying “no thank you,” but I understand how hard it is. For me I either agree to buy or spend so much time trying to figure out how to say a simple “no thank you” that I end up doing it in such a way that makes me want to avoid contact with that person. I have a friend who is like your husband and cannot understand the difficulty of just saying “I’m not interested” since it is the business of being in business with rejection even coming from family and friends.

            I received a hoover recently and don’t know from which narcissist. What I like about sharing this stuff with friends is that they make jokes about the situation and it becomes something to laugh about. I find laughter to be the best medicine to handle different types of situations.

            I hope you and your family are having a great weekend!

          4. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There,

            I didn’t understand what this means:

            “I have talked to others and my therapist about it and none feel that I should continue this behavior in my life.”

            I think that all of what your feeling is understandable and natural for you because you are an empath. I went through the same thing when I disengaged from that friend that I told you about. I didn’t do cold turkey with her. It was hard because we have a lot of mutual friends and connections. We even live in the same area and shop at the same stores. But I made the decision and stuck with it as much as I possibly could which meant that I only interacted with her when I really have to and didn’t initiate contact with her. When she commented on my posts I wanted to ignore her but didn’t want our mutual friends or acquaintances to think that I am rude so I don’t reply but I at least like her. I couldn’t do what HG would have wanted. My husband could easily do it, also because my husband doesn’t have social media so he’s not that accessible. I think that is just the nature of us empaths and that is why HG said that we are targeted because it’s easier to ensnare us and the ensnarement with us is easier to maintain or keep.

            It was not one birthday lunch that she undermined, it was years of my shared birthday dinners with her. One year my birthday was completely skipped because she asked to have her separate birthday on her 40th and since it was hard to get us all together and her birthday comes about a week after mine we ended up skipping my birthday while I continued to go to their birthdays. It was a lot of years of making me feel unimportant and my empath former boss didn’t even notice it. She also did a lot of smearing against me to the other girls behind my back and I just learn about it when my former boss would ask me why I am like that or that I misunderstood our narc friend or whatever maybe the case. It was a lot of politics in the friendship and that is not the kind of friendship that I want in my life. I think a big reason why I stayed engaging for that long is because I’m in a foreign country and I didn’t know a lot of people and also my self confidence was shaky because of the narc entanglements I had here.

          5. Getting There says:


            I know I am making excuses for my contact with that “friend.” People don’t need me to be in contact with her to maintain their contact but I don’t know. It just is hard to be the reason others need to walk on eggshells or not have the ability to enjoy friendships at one time.

            On another note, have you heard the recordings of Amber Heard and Johnny Depp? I thought he was an abuser but not I am not sure what to think. She sounds like a sociopath who abuses, but is this a case of fighting back or a case of collision?

          6. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There,

            It is very awkward to disengage with a friend when you have a lot of common friends. I felt the same way with my empath former boss. I felt that it had put her on the spot. But they have to respect the boundary that you are setting and they will really understand that if they really care about you. You cannot force your heart to be in a place where it doesn’t want to be.

            I have not heard of the recordings. I saw on IG that HG has an article about her which I want to read. I knew that she is a narcissist in fact I had a discussion with NunyaBiz and I think PSE before about Amber and I have said that just looking at her expressions alone she is definitely a narcissist. My you best stepdaughter has the exact same expressions and affect as Amber so I am so used to that kind of narcissists. I am so familiar with the expressions on her face that just seeing that face or affect on someone almost instantly raises a red flag.

          7. Violetta says:


            Have you read Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People? It’s almost a century old now, but many sales and management people still read it like the Bible. A lot of the manipulative tactics my Mid-rAngel teachers or co-workers used on me (unsuccessfully) are straight out of his playbook.

            It never seems to occur to his True Believers that there are different cultures in different regions and socioeconomic groups, let alone in other countries, and many of the things he recommends to show interest will just strike people as over-familiar and intrusive.

            I barely knew someone who worked in sales who asked lots of questions about my family (“Do you have any brothers or sisters? Where do your parents live?”) and praised my possessions (meagre, since I was in grad school) effusively. She was affronted when I wouldn’t do the same.

            There was a Young Sheldon episode in which the uber-nerd reads the book in an effort to comply with the adults pushing him to improve his social skills. At one point, he addresses a character as “Ms. So-and-so” almost every three words, because of Carnegie’s claim that people like to hear the sound of their own names. Parody aside, it was pretty close to what one teacher did. I didn’t know then why she was doing it, but I felt I was being jabbed in the ribs with my own name.

            It’s worth reading, just so you’ll know when someone’s trying a Carnegie maneuvre on you. A major one is asking you an unrelated question to which the probable answer is “yes.” They think it is a magic formula to make you receptive to agreeing to other things.

          8. MommyPino says:

            Hi Violetta,

            Thank you for sharing that. Everything you said makes so much sense. I have not read the whole book but when I was in college we had a seminar in school where they taught us portions of that book and also another book which I can’t remember. It has really helped me change my perspective on how I can change my interactions with people. Before going to college I had a very cynical outlook on people because of my background, I was very jaded. Then all of a sudden I went to this Catholic school where everyone is so respectful and nice or at least civil to each other. I walk to the hallway and my classmates from different classes and my professors and the nuns in school say hi to me with a smile and my hi back to them felt forced and it was hard to smile. In that seminar there was a tip from one of the books, maybe it was that book you’re saying where when you see a person practice on finding something nice or something that you like about them. The speaker at the seminar said that what is inside our head will instantly change the energy that we put out to people. So when I see something that I like about a person even if it’s just a stranger, it makes me easier to naturally smile back and say hi back and also it makes me feel more receptive and less guarded. It seems like a really powerful book but I totally agree with you that people need to apply it with more discernment because situations and cultures are different. Here in our little retirement town people politely smile at you at the grocery store when your eye meets their eyes. When you go to Sacramento or Stockton and you smile at another shopper at the grocery store you would see in their face wondering what is wrong with you lol.

          9. Violetta says:


            Southerners think New Yorkers are unfriendly. New Yorkers wonder why Southerners are always smiling at everybody.

            The truth is, if you stop at a NYC intersection to blow your nose, three New Yorkers will instantly rush up and ask, “Where yuh tryin’a go?” Same if you look at a subway map. Their faces fall if you say, as I have, “Oh, I used to live here, just trying to figure out the best connection.” They LIVE to give directions to strangers.

            As for Southerners, Florence King has written about people getting wrong numbers, realizing they hit an area code one digit off from the one they were trying to call, and saying things like “You’re in Charleston? Oh, do you know the Prestons or the Buchanans?” A fifteen-minute conversation will ensue, covering prominent families and 2nd cousins in both cities, and at the end of it, both parties will say (simultaneously), “You come visit real soon now, you heah?”

          10. MommyPino says:

            Lol Violetta that is fascinating. People from different cultures have different ways of showing that they care. I’m not familiar with the culture in the East Coast and what you have shared are very interesting. I’m only slightly familiar with Maryland and Connecticut because my brother lived in Maryland and now lives in Connecticut and he has a lot of stories about the people there. He used to be a civilian professor at the Naval Academy in Annapolis and he hated the culture there so much. He is a peace loving liberal and he hated the hawkish culture there. My sister in law also never puts makeup on and it was very hard for her to fit in with the military wife culture where they were all very dolled up like Stepford wives. Then he finally decided to teach at the Coast Guard Academy in Connecticut and he is now so amazingly at peace and happy. He said the the mission of the Coast Guards where they save lives really makes a big difference in their culture and they both fit in so mu better there. I’m slightly regretting passing up his invitations to Maryland before and not seeing how military wives look like in real life lol.

          11. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino.

            I was in the middle of responding to you and it disappeared. I don’t know if it will post. If it does, this may seem like deja vu.

            I am so sorry to hear about your husband’s second wife! How heartbreaking for all! The pain she must have felt that she was trying to deal with; the pain he felt; and the pain of her parents if they are still alive. I can’t imagine losing a child (although adult child) and in addition having to make the choice to remove that adult child from life support. The comment your husband received in response was wrong. From what people have shared with me the kind of hypocrisy shown to your husband and the actions of your neighbors is why some choose to not go to church of any kind. I understand everyone is a sinner and everyone will have moments of not kind behavior, but the ability to switch it on and off like a light switch is just wrong! The belief of some that if you are not part of a specific Christian church or you will go to hell gets my blood boiling, and I agree with your comments completely. I remember when I was a teenager there were kids saying “I’m so sad because I am going to heaven and my dad is going to hell.” It made me sick and still makes me sick as an adult when I hear similar. I’m more willing to speak up to some people now and challenge them on this. I personally believe that there will be all religions as well as atheists and agnostics and such in heaven.

            I just find Ben Carson a class act also! I really wish more would showcase all the good he does to help inspire others. We need more empaths to be highlighted. I think it will also help younger generation to know that empaths can succeed.

            Too bad a good telling off wouldn’t have impact on your narcissist friend. The way you handled it sounds great due to the different aspects of the relationship and others, and she got the message for now. You must have a lot of patience to have put up with that as long as you did. I’m glad your empath previous boss now understands and is supporting you in your boundaries.

            I’m sorry that line didn’t make sense! I was trying to say that I have spoken to my therapist and other friends about the situation with this friend. They all believe that I should not accept her behavior in my life and that I should put boundaries up to keep her out as she won’t change her behaviors. It’s easier said than done as you said only because of the other connections. I haven’t shared with all who share connections as I don’t want to cause issues where there doesn’t need.

            I read HG’s analysis of the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard. It was very good and helpful! I feel bad for believing her. I even thought his exes were lieutenants trying to smear her. I can’t imagine what would have happened to him if he didn’t have these recordings. That’s interesting that your step daughter had the same as Amber! I wonder if we could start picking out narcissists by that. LOL

            Have you seen the show “Prodigal Son?” Michael Sheen plays a diagnosed psychopath narcissist serial killer. I don’t think I have seen him in anything else he is in but find his acting ability in this role great! Sadly for my “recovery” I find his character to be entertaining. I don’t know if his character is a Greater. I like the whole show, not just him, but I do find myself liking when he shows up on screen looking forward to his words and expressions.

            Do you celebrate Valentine’s Day with your children?
            My son enjoys it so I will get him something. I know I will be kicked out of the empath school for this but I have not been a Valentine’s Day fan and used to act like Scrooge of Valentine’s Day. I try to watch what I say around my son to not deter him in his liking, but I will admit I have failed.

          12. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There, I don’t think that you would be kicked out of the Empath school for being a Valentines Scrooge. I have seen several posts from Empaths here who also don’t care for Valentines. I am a total opposite. I think it’s because I just want to find a reason to celebrate some days and make them extra special. We didn’t celebrate occasions that much when I was living with my mom and now that I’m in charge of my life I just love celebrating occasions. Valentines is a designated day to celebrate your loved ones so I love making it special as well (within our budget of course). My husband is similar to you and it frustrated me for years. My expectations frustrated him as well. He kept on telling me that it is just a Hallmark holiday to sell cards. He said that what is important is our anniversary because that date is just ours. It frustrated me because I didn’t really care that it is just a fake holiday; I just want to celebrate. Now we meet in the middle where we celebrate but not too much. I cooked a special dinner and he got candies, flowers and rented a movie. He got me a sweet card and I made him a card with my Cricut saying you knock me off my socks and got him a bunch of socks. He thought it was cute. With my kids though I’m able to go all out. I got them cute V Day outfits and I made them cute mailboxes. My son’s a train fanatic so his shirt says “I choo choo choose you!” I also helped him make a gift for his teacher which he really enjoyed.

            I haven’t seen that show but I have seen Michael Sheen twice now and his performances were both great. I first saw him in the movie Far From the Madding Crowd and Caroline is fine and I agreed that his character there is a Victim Middle Mid Ranger. The second movie is when my family watched Dolittle and he played Dr. Müdfly. He seems really great at playing Mid Rangers. He has a show that I have always been curious of watching but I couldn’t because I have little kids and I’m not sure what my husband would think if he finds out that I watch it, it’s Masters of Sex. I don’t know if it’s a good show but it just seems intriguing and I bet that he is a narcissist there as well.

            I love HG’s analysis on Amber as well. I wasn’t aware of a lot of it. I just had bad vibes from her affect and facial expressions because it’s so similar to my youngest stepdaughter. I am not sure if my youngest stepdaughter is a Lesser or a Lower MR. She was diagnosed as bipolar but I think that they misdiagnosed her. Since she was 16 she was a compulsive liar and just couldn’t stop herself from lying. I have not seen her have empathy towards her own friends and she even seems happy when they fail at something because it seems to validate her for some reason. She used to attack me in the guise of being protective of her dad and brother who is special needs even when I have not done anything bad to them. She was trying to make me feel accountable to her with the way I treat her dad and brother but I don’t think that it is genuine care because she has hurt both of them so much in the process. Also she doesn’t even spend time with her brother or help him with anything. I don’t think that she has a conscience either. But she says she is a dog lover although her dog doesn’t seem to like her and has tried to escape from her whenever the dog had a chance. We briefly took care of her dog when she had to look for a new place and she was always shocked when her dad told her that the dog hasn’t tried to escape at all. Her exes avoid her and she brags about how scared they seem to look whenever they see her. I think that narcissists have different affects. My older stepdaughter has a similar affect as Meghan Markle. She has that well-practiced sweet smile but occasionally the haughty facial expression appear. My narcissist birthday former friend has the same affect as KC Anthony. She is big on religion too and she is able to make a lot of members of her church provide money and gifts and help to her. She’s always struggling financially.

            I’m happy that your therapist and friends support you and agree with you. I totally agree that it is very hard when you have mutual connections that doesn’t have any idea what happened. You don’t want to tell them the story and appear like you are smearing and at the same time it is challenging to know that they might be confused with your new behavior towards the narcissist friend. It is just a phase though and as long as you stay with the program eventually it will become normal to your mutual friends and they will forget about it and wouldn’t even think that you used to be friends etc.

            My husband’s experience with his second wife was tragic indeed. We have a little fenced in part of our property he calls the Secret Garden dedicated to her which has roses which she loved. It’s not triangulation as he has told me that it is the past now and he just feels bad at the thought that she would just disappear in the world without any legacy or memory. But he doesn’t use her to compare to me in any way although his daughters used to do that and he used to tell them how confusing it is because they used to hate her and treat her horribly and now that she is dead she is all of a sudden perfect.

          13. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino.

            I can completely understand your love of the holidays to include Valentine’s Day after reading what you wrote about the inability to celebrate when you are young. Thank you for sharing that! Maybe I am overstepping appropriateness but maybe also the celebration of showing love to and being shown love by those you love may also play a role. Either way that’s great that you are celebrating your style with your children! I love that shirt saying! Your crafts with your children sound cute and will be great memories as they grow!

            I went a slight overboard with my son for Valentine’s Day. He seemed to enjoy it which is what matters. I do love other holidays!

            Does your husband go all out to celebrate your anniversary?

            I was just talking about different narcissists, both mid range I believe, and how different they react in the exact same situation. It’s very interesting to read about the facial expressions and behavior of the different narcissists in your world after that conversation. The use of famous people helped me understand the differences. Both Amber Heard and Megan are being called out by some in the public on their behavior and yet they act like all is good. I wonder how much of the facade would be broken if we studied their faces. I know some talk about the eyes being dead. I never see it. I read different articles about different men killing their current or previous significant other, and a few of the comments on the articles talk about the dead eyes being a give away. I stare and don’t see it. It reminds me of those pictures in the 90s where if you stare at it a clear picture is supposed to form. I never saw it for any picture; I am like one of the characters in “Mall Rats.” Maybe there is something in the smile or the expression that will make it more clear than the eyes.

            Two of our mutual connections have impacted my decision about that friend. I decided that I will not let her impact me but I can’t impact others either. I am not being a friend to her specifically so I have no doubt it will be a slow process but I am not giving up. Thank you for sharing about your experience with the same as it helps when I want to get upset that I can’t just cut and run! I have no plans to hang out in the same way that we did before or be an active person in her life. I think I need to make my walls slowly. Did your church constantly donate each time she had a financial problem?

            I heard about that “Sex” show with Michael Sheen and heard it was very good! I want to see it. Playing narcissists must be his thing. He could be a mid range in this show also, but I think he is a Greater. It could also be that he is a midrange but him being a psychopath makes a difference. I should watch the show to see if I can apply what I learn, but I haven’t yet.

            You are a sweet and considerate wife to accept a special garden for his second wife! I know for different cultures it is important that a person remains “alive” in memory somehow, and maybe this is it for him. I think remembering the good instead of the bad after someone dies is normal for many people. I assume your stepdaughters do it to triangulate but thankfully that is stopped. How hard for you to have to deal with your sister, mom, workmate, and your stepdaughter at the same time. You are one strong woman!

          14. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            You didn’t overstep appropriateness at all and I think that you are also correct. I just love being surrounded by warmth and love from my family and the special occasions give us an opportunity to interact in a special way. My mom wasn’t warm at all. Thank you, I’m happy to think that their interactions with me will become part of their memories. And I hope that they always remember how much they are loved and how much we all laugh together.

            I think that it is awesome that you made your son’s Valentines extra special. I sometimes do that too and I believe that it’s always nice to have that one Christmas or one Valentines when someone went really all out on us. I think if it happens all the time then they can get used to it and it wouldn’t be special anymore but expected.

            My husband doesn’t go all out on our anniversaries either. I think that he just likes to keep things simple. He went all out on our wedding though. He gave me my dream wedding in my home country. His daughters were against it and have tried to convince him to just have a civil wedding since this is just his third wedding anyway. He said that it is my first (and hopefully last lol) so he wanted me to experience a wedding that I wanted. My husband is not the type who wants to go out for dinners. But he likes to hike and do outdoor stuff. He just doesn’t like elegant stuff. When I was still working, I got him a weekend vacation to a really fancy resort in Calistoga as a birthday gift. So we had to leave our car at a certain area and we were picked up by a golf cart to take us to the reception office to check in. The people at the reception seemed to have an air about them which I totally didn’t mind because they were also very nice but he said that they are too pretentious. One of them is gay and had a very flamboyant personality with an accent (which may have been fake) and was so sweet to offer us Chai tea which was the most amazing Chai Rea that I have ever had. I told the guy that the tea was amazing and he told me how their chef added some nutmeg and some other spices that I forgot to it. When we left my husband was mocking the guy with the way he was telling the spices in the Chai tea. I thought it was funny how things like that irritate him although he still had a great time with me but he doesn’t want to go back there. So I think that I shouldn’t push activities to him that he doesn’t enjoy. But thankfully I have kids that I can do stuff like that with. As they get older I can do more stuff with them that my husband doesn’t want to do with me. Like when they’re a little bigger I want to take them to San Francisco and have tea at one of their hotels or go to Chinatown with them and go to a really good dim sum place.

            The ‘dead eyes’ is not a default setting on them. There are situations that their dead eyes are more noticeable. If you image search pictures of Jodi Arias she has a lot of pictures with dead eyes. On some of her posed pictures where she was smiling, her eyes were smiling but there’s not a lot of life coming from it. But then there is Meghan Markle who has perfected her fake sweet smile. She narrows her eyes just a tiny bit to make her smile gentle when she is smiling in front of a crowd or to someone but when she is smiling to no particular person her mouth forms more of a smirk, kind of like the Mona Lisa smile but with more deviousness. My older stepdaughter has a very nice practiced smile too as she was a model but when she is not the center of attention her eyes become either dead or hateful. When my stepdaughters went to my baby shower they arrived late and they seemed like something was bothering them. Then they sat together at a corner and didn’t interact with anybody. I was bothered that they didn’t seem to be having fun to I have been talking to them a lot and included them in conversations and even shared some funny anecdotes about them which got them laughing. I actually almost made my baby shower to be about them just to make them feel at ease. Then when their dad asked them how the shower went, they didn’t have anything good to say. They also criticized me about how I should have introduced them to everyone as soon as they entered the door because they said that’s just how the etiquette is. Interestingly, whenever I went to their events they never introduce me to anyone and I’m always the one who goes to the other guests and introduce myself and ask them how they met my stepdaughters. So I guess they don’t follow etiquette as well. They are both very animated and expressive except when the spotlight is on someone or they have no control.

            Although I might also be noticing more with the facial expressions than most people. I have read that when people grow up in families where they walk on eggshells they learn to be extra sensitive to micro expressions. I can spot the split second expressions on people right after an event that stimulated them and before they correct that reaction. That’s another reason why even though I was so attracted to the handyman who tried to seduce me, I couldn’t ignore the red flags on his expressions so even though I was full of ET and was literally incapable of judging him, I had enough recognition that a lot of things are off with him. And I also didn’t want to put myself in a compromising situation where someone could take a picture of me without my knowledge or record my voice etc and blackmail me to not show my husband. And I also had cognitive empathy towards my husband who is a good person and doesn’t deserve to be betrayed.

            My friend and I never went to that same church. She is a Protestant while I was a Catholic although now I go to the Mormon church with my husband. I just see on her Facebook that she posts whenever she needs help and people from her church always volunteer to help her or give her gifts or money. She then praises them profusely.

            Thank you for your kind words Getting There. I think that we are all strong to survive the narcissists we had to deal with. You are so amazingly strong yourself with how you are raising your son while also working and dealing with your own challenges with you OCD and your narcissist ex. That is a lot to deal with but you are handling it with so much grace. I think that my husband is that kind of person who has to memorialize someone who is gone. But the difference between him and his daughters is that he has never compared me to his second wife. His daughters constantly did but not directly. What they used to do is when something about me is brought up, they will bring her up and use her to one up me. They either bring her up or their mom. There’s always someone better than me in their books. My husband doesn’t compare people. I had a habit of comparing people which I got from my mom. For example I would ask my husband who he thinks is prettier at the Miss Universe contest, Miss France or Miss Venezuela? He would look at the pictures and ask me how can anyone even possibly figure out who’s prettier? They are both pretty but they don’t look the same. My mom would nitpick on every little characteristic just like my stepdaughters and my husband just sees the whole package. He would sometimes pick one because he thinks that the other woman looks like a bitch while the other one seems sweet but not because of their specific looks.

          15. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            It’s the weekend! Are you ready?

            I’m glad you don’t feel that I overstepped! I see wanting to share love as a normal and natural need. I agree with the statement that no one is meant to be an island. It may not be romantic love for all but a love to share really has a positive impact. I may not be imagining it correctly, but it seems like it would have been lonely for you being raised by a single mom who was not loving or kind or even safe in ways. You deserve the great love you have and the ability to share the love you have like you do now with all your family and friends! I think I will be less vocal about my dislike of Valentine’s Day in the future as what you have shared makes me realize that my negative comments can be impacting a time of celebration for someone who may need a day about love of any kind. Thank you! I won’t become a fan of it but just less vocal. LOL

            I go all out for Christmas and Easter! I also overdid it for the Super Bowl even though I don’t follow either teams. I blame tiredness on that one but love the celebration of Christmas and Easter so much. I used to love Thanksgiving and being with family but things aren’t the same with that one by my choice in not wanting to cause hurt or anything. The joy I have seen, when my son and adults of different ages see what Santa or the Easter bunny left for them, makes it worth it to me.

            That sounds like an amazing gift you gave to your husband and yourself with that time away! The place sounds amazing to include the chai tea. Chai is one of my favorites. I’m sorry your husband didn’t enjoy it as much. It’s great sharing with your kids the experiences you enjoy; I’m very similar in that. I know it isn’t the same as if your husband went, but it’s also good to not give up on what you enjoy! Do you have a group of friends who would enjoy with you to do now and then later with your children? I look forwarding to sharing a lot with my son and have shared some of my interests already. It’s fun watching from his eyes or think of things from his view which sometimes opens my mind to things I didn’t think before, so I understand your plans and feelings.

            I’m glad your husband ignored his daughters and gave you your dream wedding! I bet it was beautiful and full of love! Did your dad and husband have an opportunity to meet before your dad died?

            I think you have a great point that people who grow up in abusive homes may have a better ability to pick up subtle facial changes. I followed parts of Jodie Arias trial. I could not tell a difference in her eyes. I can’t tell what you described of Megan either. I am impressed with your abilities to pick up those cues but am sorry you received such an ability due to your mom. It saved you from that guy, saved you from what you would have felt afterwards, and possibly saved your family from a lot of pain. Amazing ability to catch those red flags and amazing ability to trust yourself in this case!!
            My red flags are words. In certain cases, I pay attention to words. It’s not usually a good sign for the other if I am paying attention to their words as that means that something has taken me from the automatic mode of trusting.

            Thank you for the compliments! I can’t speak for you but I find my past experiences to have made me stronger than I knew I could be. I know my situations could be worse in so many ways. I am thankful that it wasn’t worse and thankful for the growth it is giving me.

          16. MommyPino says:

            You’re very welcome Getting There and thank you for the kind words that you always so kindly give me as well.

            In some ways my past has made me stronger and in some ways I feel that it has permanently created some challenges in me that I have to overcome. However I am also very grateful that my life is within my control now and I have the power to take my life any direction that I want it to go.

            Don’t worry about speaking your mind about how you feel regarding Valentines Day. I honestly don’t mind and I totally understand.

            It was very lonely for me to grew up with my mom most of the time but I was blessed to have lots of relatives who are very warm and my interactions with them have shaped me tremendously. A lot of my cousins lives with my mom when I was born until I was about five and so my earliest memories are so full of fun and laughter with them. They were young teenagers at that time so they played with me a lot while they were babysitting me. Then they all got abused by my mom and nobody came back. I was lonely but I started to go to school at six. I was delayed by a year because my mom forgot to enroll me when I was five lol. My mom didn’t allow me to leave our apartment to play with other kids in our neighborhood so I was extremely excited to go to school. Then when I was 8 we moved to the province and we started visiting my grandmother every weekends which I truly enjoyed. They are all very warm and they treated me like I was special. I have a lot of caucasian features which made them treat me like a unique doll. Unlike here where there is so much diversity, in my home country about 95% of people have black hair and brown skin so that is why they treated me that way. I had a lot of cousins that are my age that I played with while visiting my grandma. When I was in sixth grade my mom alienated all of them and I never saw my relatives again until I was in college.

            My husband also loves Easter and Christmas. That’s the time when we both go all out. We have our own egg hunt at our house aside from the egg hunts that we take our kids to. I love decorating during those times.

            It was indeed a really cool place in Calistoga. My husband didn’t enjoy the resort’s culture but they provide bicycles in each units which we used to see the beautiful area surrounding the resort. It was mustard season so it was so beautiful to see the yellow mustard flowers everywhere and the beautiful vineyards. We also went hiking in the petrified forest which my husband totally enjoyed.

            I agree with you on sharing your interests with you son. They say that kids absorb or learn more when it comes from the primary caregiver. Even with my mom I enjoyed it when she helped me do my school art projects. Watching her with how she decorated my art works and seeing her ideas made me very creative. I was much more skilled than her with art but getting some ideas from her got me started into improving my skills and trying different approaches. She was also very much into the Bible and that has introduced me to my lifelong companion.
            I only have three friends here in the US. One of them is an immigrant from Mexico and we have common interests in teaching our kids. We meet for play dates regularly and I love doing it. Her father was also a Lesser narcissist. My other friend is a fellow Filipino immigrant. I have been inviting her to do stuff with me but her live in partner always asks why he is not invited. My husband thinks that they are weird and sometimes I wonder if her partner is a narcissist. But he is super nice to us and our kids and he has been a really good father figure to her son. She was married to a Filipino who physically abused her and hated her son because he is gay. Her son thinks that this guy has been a father to him in so many ways his real father was not. So I can only do stuff with her if her partner who is also our family friend and godfather of both of my kids can come along. My third friend is my former boss who is always busy but we meet for lunch every now and then. She’s an American.

            My dad was actually my husband’s patient. But I never met my husband until after my dad already died. I met my husband at the bank that I worked at as a teller and he was a customer.

            “ It saved you from that guy, saved you from what you would have felt afterwards, and possibly saved your family from a lot of pain. ”
            I couldn’t agree more. I am beyond belief thankful that nothing happened and I have nothing to fear and I didn’t do anything that could possibly hurt my husband. I do believe that my husband would have forgiven me if I did it but I am just thankful that I didn’t do anything that could hurt him.

            My other red flags aside from the facial expressions is the behavior. It has to be a string of behaviors and not just a one off behavior. But I don’t know if I pay attention to the words. How do words become a red flag to you?

            I hope that your weekend was wonderful. I had a good one and a productive one too. 💕

          17. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            This is the third time tonight I am trying to respond. I don’t know what happened to the other two. I hope this one works out.

            How fun for your children and family that both of you get so excited and into those holidays! I love Christmas decorations! I don’t decorate outside but have fun driving around seeing other houses decorated. Easter egg hunts are fun! I like the personal ones better than the public ones. I found that the competition at the public ones made it not fun when the parents “helped” the children by picking up the eggs also. I became frustrated at the unfair advantage over kids, like my son, whose parents wouldn’t help by picking up. I started making sarcastic remarks loudly. It was passive aggressive and a bad way to teach my son how to react.

            That’s great that you had that time with your relatives and that you still have good memories from it! I’m sorry you and your relatives lost years of connection due to your mom’s actions. I hope you have been able to strengthen those bonds now. Do you think that your mom liked the attention you got, was jealous of the attention, or no reaction?

            What a small world that your husband was your dad’s doctor and that you met at work! I wonder if your dad is thrilled in Heaven that you met his doctor and married him. It is quite romantic!

            It sounds like you have good friends. I agree with you that the controlling behavior of your friend’s partner is concerning. The need to be with someone all the time is now a red flag and not romantic! Does she have an issue with it? That’s sad that she escaped the abusive relationship, and I worry she found another with other kind of abuse. Would your husband be willing to hang out with him so you can have a heart to heart and see what she is thinking and feeling?
            I have found that making friends as an adult hasn’t been as easy as a child. My childhood friends don’t live near me. I have since made friends with a few of my son’s friends’ moms. His activites helped me meet others. There is only one here who I trust enough to share a great deal of my experiences. She has great boundaries for herself when it comes to her husband. I am impressed and want to learn from her. It’s interesting that she can understand me in my situations so well when she hasn’t experienced it.

            Behavior is a good red flag! Do you find that your experience with both a lesser and with midranges help you see a range of behavior or are you more in tuned to a certain kind for red flags?

            Examples of how words are red flags for me:
            On a date with a guy before meeting my exhusband, the guy made a “joke” about people in a certain career field. It wasn’t anything different than what comedians joked but it raised a flag as he didn’t know me or my humor to know if I would find that funny or offensive. It was a first date. As the date continued he did and said other things that were filed away in my head, and he didn’t get a second date.
            The one who came after my exhusband made a comment, before we were romantic, that he would enjoy taking me clothes shopping. That comment raised a flag for me. I didn’t see us as a way where he would take me shopping of any kind, and I didn’t understand if there was a perception that he thought I needed something or that he would get a say in what I wear. Plus I hate clothes shopping.
            After we became romantic and after he was destroying my trust, I tested his words and asked questions where he would share stories he already shared to see if the information matched. When details changed, I filed it away in my mind. I fight less when my mind is full of that kind of stuff.
            Another example where words would raise a red flag is if a person answers a question with a vague answer. I hope HG doesn’t mind but I will use a comment of his as an example. I am not trying to pick on HG, but use something as an example if it had been said to me (and if I didn’t know if the person was a narcissist). I don’t remember the exact words however I remember someone asking him about his ability or knowledge of flying. His response came across vague to me with him saying something about him knowing how to fly planes (I’m sorry that I don’t remember the exact words). Something that vague would make me wonder as flying a plane or planes can mean so much, and the comment could lend to a not-so- impressed to very impressed perception depending on what that means. I can fly a plane and have had great fun crash landing, that is on the computer. There are plane simulators. There are RC planes. I had a college friend who took me flying in a Cessna as he had a license for that during college. There are other kind of planes. If someone was that vague to me, I would file it away and wonder what is being hidden.
            Since finding HG and his blog there are more words that jump at me during conversations. Sometimes I will ask the person about what I noticed. Other times, though, I will file it away because I somehow have instinctively figured that if I mention it, the person could potentially explain it where I doubt myself. I give them enough of those in other ways.

            Have you thought more about a job?

            Have you heard the song “No Day But Today” from the musical Rent? I love it and heard it this evening. Without understanding the story, I could see that this song could be viewed as a narcissistic type song. With understanding the story, I feel the words take a different meaning.

          18. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            I hope you and your family are doing well!

            I have another example of words being a red flag. Both yesterday and today, Instagram has been strange for me. I have received multiple requests to be followed, some are obvious scams as they stole the name of a famous person, and others are not as obvious. I have received some before but never as many as I have in such a short time. Also I have received communication from 4 strangers wanting to talk. I accepted three conversations, but the fourth was a fake famous person’s account. The three with whom I spoke all raised red flags based on comments. Something each said raised the flag about their honesty, so then I followed up with a question or comment that would let me know if each was lying. They all failed, and now each are blocked. I don’t know what is going on with all of this action on the account in such a short period of time, but I am glad that each said something that raised the flag for me.

          19. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            I’m sorry I didn’t get an email notification of your earlier response to me. I got this last one but it looked like there was something before it so I thought that it must be just under moderation. I’m glad that I went to the page itself to check!

            That seems to be common in Instagram and even on Facebook. I have become choosy of those that I accept. I am scared of having a private conversation with someone that I don’t know and have only met on IG and FB. I am not scared if I have met that person from a common interest group before sending me a private message but to get a private message right away for some reason scares me. I have had people sell me stuff after I liked their post that had a hashtag that I was following but I don’t respond to them. If I like their product I will just buy it.

            That is interesting about words as red flags. I now think that there have been instances when that happened to me too. Words that remind me of any of my narcs become red flags for me. The “don’t you ever” phrase can be a red flag for me. The “I’m in a different place in my life now” to denote that s/he has changed can be a red flag for me. Talking on extremes can be a red flag for me. If a person has a tendency to say that some things is the best ever too many times can be a red flag for me. Although I have to say that Chai tea in Calistoga was honestly the best Chai I ever had lol. It’s if almost everything that this person introduces to me is the best (best salad, best recipe for deviled eggs, best root beer, best this and that) as if she is the keeper of the record of the bests, then it is a red flag for me. When someone says “I’m just being honest” often to justify hurtful comments not necessarily towards me, that is a red flag. But like you said, I also file it in my head until I see other red flags that make me believe that this person can be problematic for me in the future.

            In terms of behaviors, HG has helped me so much by identifying and precisely and creatively describing these behaviors for me (for us). Future faking, if it happens several times. But I know that life happens and sometimes things get busy or people get distracted or they just honestly forgot so this is not conclusive for me. Triangulation when it seems to be a habit. Just like your example, it is also a red flag for me when someone is critical about so many people, especially people that are strangers. But it is not conclusive. I just think it demonstrates either lack or not a lot of empathy to make fun of people that they don’t even know, especially if it’s about something benign such as their appearance or race or social status. If it’s about the person’s personality or character then I can probably understand. When someone has a desire to be above others even in stupid reasons. For example, my half sister took me to this bar close to where we live who invented a drink that is popular. The bar is uneven, one side is elevated. So she had us (I was following her lead) sit at the elevated part. She then told me while laughing that she always sits there so she can look down on the people at the lower bar. The narc that I dated when I was in my twenties was also the same. He took me to one of the fanciest hotels in our country and he took me to this somewhat hidden restaurant where there was a glass where we could watch the people dancing below us. And at that time I did not get why he would be interested in watching other people but the food and alcohol was really good and we were treated like a VIP by the servers so I was grateful for the unusual experience. I still am actually. That is also an unfortunate red flag too, when someone takes me to unusual experiences. Unfortunately because that is a red flag that I enjoy. But it is also possible that the person is just like me, an empath who likes adventures so it is not conclusive either.

            I will have to send this now but I have more to write later. 🧡

          20. Mommypino says:

            Another red flag for me is when I share some positive news about me and the person who is either friend or family doesn’t have any excitement or happiness for me. I noticed that even with Normals, there is a happy reaction, no matter how small. Even before they say anything their eyes get bigger and there can even be noticeable ever so slightly raise in the eyebrows even before their mouth smiles. I was thinking about myself how even if something bad is happening to me it is a natural and almost involuntary action to be happy for a friend or family when something good happens to them or they are excited about something. To have a flat affect or dead eyes after I tell them something I am excited about is a major red flag and I think it is actually an underhanded way of undermining me.
            I also agree with you that giving vague answers is a red flag. Remember the “clarity is kindness” quote from Dare to Lead? Clarity is not something that narcissists will be willing to give unconditionally because to them it is surrendering control to the other person. It is letting themselves being vulnerable which they cannot allow. I’m not saying it is good or bad. I just think that it is a good red flag because it means control is important to that person who cannot give clear answers. Although of course with HG his answers are often vague when it comes to questions about him. He controls what he allows us to know about him. But when it comes to narcissism he give us clarity because it serves his purpose. Ultimately it is always in his terms. My husband’s first wife I believe is a narc and whenever he talks to her he gets so frustrated at how inept she is at talking to him like a normal person. She is not talented at doing circular conversations like HG’s illustrations so she uses stuttering and “aah…ehh…ahh” a lot and then she says something irrelevant and even incomprehensible. He often just cuts her off with her stuttering by repeating his question louder in a way that is answerable by only yes or no and he often has to do it several times even after he tells her he has to go. Her stuttering in a meek and confused way is her Victim way of manipulation. He doesn’t let her notice how frustrated he is but after he hangs up he would finally let out his frustration.

            Another red flag is when I notice that I am being compartmentalized. Even with that former friend that has the KC Anthony affect (I’ll call her KC), she knew that I didn’t grow up here and didn’t have any mother friends and even though I have asked her several times to invite me to the play dates she goes to with her friends so I can socialize my son she never did. And when she found out that I was able to be friends with one of her mom friends she almost looked panicked. Then she even looked more pricked when I was able to find a way to join the big play group co op that she was in and weirdly she managed to not attend the play dates that I RSVPd in. It’s the same with my half sister. She never invited me to join her and her friends when they went out even though at that time I was new in the country, had no car and didn’t know anyone because I wasn’t able to get a job yet. She showed off her friends to me when they visited her at our dad’s house which we lived together in after he died and she made sure I know how impressive they all are. I eventually showed lack of interest about her friends and even showed her I was too busy to meet them whenever they came to our house. I believe that compartmentalization of people is not normal and is indicative of a person’s dire need for control.

            I will write more tomorrow. ❤️😘

          21. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            I wrote this reply earlier but lost it when I went back to it. 😭. But now I have time to write it again.

            I totally agree with you about how annoying those parents are who help their kids. Even those parents who spot the eggs for their kids. I think that they are taking away the joy from their kids of finding the eggs themselves.

            I think that my mom enjoyed the attention that I got because it opened the door for her to talk to people about me, my dad, our situation, how she takes care of me and that someday we will live in America. I was more like a prop. But I still got to interact with all of them a lot which was great even though my mom was always around. What I noticed made her upset was whenever she can tell that I love and trust any of her relatives. Whenever I express my admiration towards any of them, even her kindest sister who was always there for her, my mom would immediately say a lot of negative things about them and tell me that I just don’t know them well because I’m still a child so I am not smart yet. It has been a cause of many fights we had. Especially when I defend them or I tell her that they treat their children with respect but she doesn’t respect me. Whenever I told her to respect me it made her laugh and she said that my brain is upside down, the parents are the ones that children need to respect not the other way around.

            Thank you. I hope that my dad is happy. He has told me before a few times that my husband is a good man although he probably never thought that I would marry him. I don’t know how my dad would have felt if he saw me date him especially regarding the age gap. Although my dad was in his late fifties when he got my mom pregnant. Something that I really wish was that my dad saw and got to hug his grandkids from me.

            I will write more about my friend tomorrow. 🧡

          22. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            I can’t imagine what it could be like to move to another country with no friends, family you were getting to know, and no car in an area that needs a car. I’m sorry that your sister treated you like that and caused further hardship in your move!

            When you said that compartmentalizing people is a red flag, I had to think how I am. I compartmentalize people based on roles. It helps to know the rules of each role. When roles mix, I struggle until I can define the relationship. I then understood what you meant by not mixing friendship. It confuses me when people do that. I will admit that I struggled in introducing different friends but did it recently for the Super Bowl. I have friends who are all about talking sex and then I have friends who don’t mention sex at all. I was worried, but it all worked out. It really is hard to meet friends as adults, so it wasn’t fair of your friend to keep you from play dates and meet others. It made me laugh to know that you showed her that you didn’t need her or her help.

            Future faking is something new for me. When I first read about it here, I tried to figure out if I had experienced it and could not think of a time. Now that I have read about it, I see it by others. Sometimes my ex- husband would use words that would negate a promise, so it was easy for both of us to know he didn’t plan it as a guarantee. When he did comment as a guarantee for things I wanted, I didn’t give him a chance to not follow through as I would jump in and do it or plan myself. As for the guy after him, he would use “if” to show he was only playing what if. You’re right that future faking is a red flag that is file worthy. I agree that people become busy and people forget, but I think that is the positive of filing red flags when people can show themselves through time versus one time event. The more my head contains flags the easier it becomes to walk away.

            I know sarcasm is a red flag for some. I personally enjoy a witty back and forth, so I would see it as an attractive trait instead of a red flag. Just today my friend reminded me of a guy I was involved with in the past. A big part of the reason I had been attracted to him was his sarcasm. As it turned out, I met a guy who went to college with him after things ended. His only comment about the guy I had been involved with was that he was an “a**hole.” At the time I wondered if his humor could have been misunderstood. Now I wonder about how it is determined what qualities attract us. Is it ingrained or do we learn somehow?

            Your mom was jealous and losing what control she thought she had over you. Good for you for standing up for yourself and others regardless of your mom’s reaction!! I can see how she would play up the attention in her victim style way. It is sick, but I am glad you found good in it that helped you.

            I think the whole connection is romantic! Your dad may have been concerned about the age difference, but I am sure if he knew you were happy then that would be all that mattered. I am a believer that our relatives in Heaven meet our children before we do. They play, talk, and give hugs. I have no doubt your dad gave them lots of hugs!

          23. MommyPino says:

            Hello Gettin There,

            Thank you for your wonderful comments. I’m sorry for not being able to respond quicker. I have been sick and then now that I am better I have been occupied with monitoring the Corona virus situation. We live in a retirement community and with all of the elderly here I am worried about it getting here. Although thankfully there is no confirmed case yet in our county. I have decided to stay local this spring break to remove the possibility of picking something up and bringing it here in our area. My family is healthy and will recover from it but I don’t want to infect the vulnerable people in our community.

            Events are being canceled now and sadly the tee ball practices too. My son had his first practice yesterday and on our way home he couldn’t stop telling me that he can’t believe how much he enjoyed it. But I am glad that we are taking precautionary measures. My husband and I also got to take our kids to a super hero party last weekend and that was really fun for them. My husband drove for us because I didn’t had sleep because of my asthma.

            I want to tell you about my friends situation later. I also thank you for your supportive comments. But I have to take a break from Narcsite for now as I couldn’t stop thinking about my community and the current situation. I want to see how I can be helpful and to focus that my family is safe and ready for whatever might happen.
            I hope and pray that you and your family is ok as well and no harm will ever come near you and everyone that you care about. I will be back when I feel that everything is sorted. Love to you! 🧡🧡🧡

          24. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            I know you won’t read this for awhile, but I wanted to make sure it was here for when you returned.

            I’m sorry you were sick! You are such a good person for caring so much about your neighbors! Thank you for the prayers and you and your loved ones are in my prayers.
            My son’s school has closed. It will all work out, so I am not stressing about balancing everything. As for the coronavirus, I don’t worry for myself. Like you, I worry about others. I worry about giving it to someone who can become very seriously ill and even die from it. I had this discussion with someone just yesterday about how there are people who look young and healthy but could have an underlying condition. It’s great that there are people like you helping others!!

            There’s an update on the friend thing but we can catch up on all we want to share when we both return to narcsite.

            You will be in my thoughts and prayers! Thank you for being a good friend on here! I am thankful for you.

          25. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            Thank you so much for your sweet comment. I hope that you and your loved ones are ok and that you are able to stock up adequate supplies in case of an order to shelter in place. I was busy getting my family ready for that last week and these past days. I’m almost done and just finishing my last few errands. Our city still doesn’t have a shelter in place order but the neighboring counties and one city just fifteen minutes away from us already has. When it goes in effect here I will have to stay home because I have a chronic disease and apparently that puts me in a high risk. Although I have been reading and I don’t see enough information on asthma and Coronavirus. Also the actor Idris Elba has asthma too and he has Corona virus and he’s still alive. But regardless I still need to follow the orders if that is what the experts believe to be what is best. My husband is 67 yrs old and in that high risk age category as well but he is still seeing patients. He has been cancelling appointments and surgeries of patients in the high risk category since last week. One daughter of his patient got so mad at him on the phone but he explained that her mom is 80 yrs old and if he does surgery on her she will have to visit his office for post surgery monitoring and care and it’s too risky for her to be out and about with the virus potentially being around our county (we still don’t have confirmed cases).

            I hope that the situation is not causing problems with you especially regarding the father of your son. I hope that you are doing well and not too stressed with all of this.

            Sending love and thoughts to you. 🧡

          26. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            I haven’t heard from you in a while so I just thought to check in. I hope that you and your son are doing ok with this COVID-19 situation. Love to you and take care! 🧡💕

          27. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            I’m sorry! I have been away from the site since I wrote that last message. Along with everything else, I was reacting internally to specific things and thought it best to become obsessed with the news instead. LOL You are often in my thoughts but today was a strong one so I came to send you a message and then found your messages. You are so sweet!

            How are you? How is your family? I saw your previous message that they didn’t have you on shut down. Has that changed? That’s great that both you and your husband are doing what you can to protect yourselves, and I know still caring for others! I have read asthma is a risk due to what this can do to lungs. I think there is so much speculation and not enough facts. I’m so thankful you are doing what you need to protect you! Hopefully this time is also a fun time with your children! That is sad that your husband had to explain the risks to the daughter! I hope she understood after that.

            We are in locked down but we can get out to work, grocery shop, and outdoor exercise. That last part has been nice! I am not a meal planner so I need to grocery shop more than we are advised. LOL I just found out a friend has this so I have been texting with her when she has the strength. I originally downplayed this but I have come to recognize I was wrong. I am very direct with people who do whatever because they don’t feel that they are a risk. I remind them it isn’t about them. I was sent a Corona version of Bohemian Rhapsody and it got to the part where the singer talks about accidentally getting someone else sick who dies, I cried. I know many with underlying conditions or compromised immunity. Thankfully they are like you doing what they can to protect, but the lack of care for others just gets to me.
            I have prayed a bit for the narcissist that came after my ex- husband. I haven’t contacted him. If I thought it could be a simple “you ok?” and then we move on with our lives, then I would.
            My son misses his friends. I don’t allow him to play video games online due to the risks there, so I downloaded an app where he can use it to video chat with his friends if they have it too.

            I hope you are enjoying the spring weather! I have missed you!

          28. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            I just wrote a comment but cannot see it pending post. I hope to find it or I will rewrite.

            I hope you are doing! I have missed you!

  2. Violetta says:

    There may be ONE realistic (sort of) depiction of Mawiage and Twue Wuv.

    A guy found a bizarre ’70s porn film in an old cinema, involving a redneck couple arguing while trying to have sex (he can’t get it up). The footage was released decades later by a cult film company as Bat Pussy.

    It has been suggested that the film be shown to teenagers as part of school abstinence programs, as it ought to turn anyone who sees it off sex for years, possibly permanently.

    Sample dialogue:

    Unidentified drunk male hillbilly: You don’t know how to suck a dick, do you?
    [Pauses ]
    Unidentified drunk male hillbilly: Hey! You ain’t answered yet!
    Unidentified drunk female hillbilly: How can I answer with a mouth full of dick?

    Unidentified drunk male hillbilly: “My horoscope says I’m going to fuck you in the nose.”

    Unidentified drunk female hillbilly: Hey, lemme tell you somethin’
    [* tilts to one side and farts loudly * ]

    The realism diminishes when superheroine Bat Pussy comes to make it a threesome, commuting on an
    inflatable hippity hop ball (aka space hopper) to the sound of “Sewer Lady,” pirated from the ’60s Batman TV series.

    No one knows what the original purpose of the movie was (though it’s likely lots drugs were involved), but it might be the best way to render viewers immune to a few narcs with Pepé Le Pew routines.

    1. Getting There says:

      I wonder what his sign is. It doesn’t sound like a good horoscope day.

      Princess Bride is one of the best movies, in my opinion.

  3. AnneB says:

    Hi H.G., re: Lennon’s “The Walrus” and your comment up thread. The parts written after imbibing LSD would include
    “I am the walrus, goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
    Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
    Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
    Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
    Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
    Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
    Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob”?

    Very dry! (humour I mean).

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, I think that part was dictated but Ringo has his hands over Lennon´s mouth.

      1. AnneB says:

        haha, nice one!

  4. Pati says:

    I am waiting to see the movie No Time To Die with Daniel Craig. Coming out 2020 .I think HG could resemble Daniel Craig for some reason .

    1. MB says:

      Pati, he has said that he does resemble DC. K can get the info once she’s done finding Pamela links if she’s so inclined to do so. Isn’t she the best Narchivist ever?!?

      1. Pati says:

        MB, are you serious ? I just got the impression in my mind. I must be physic I think . Sorry MB what did you mean about K?

        1. MB says:

          Pati, K can find the thread(s)where HG describes his appearance.

          1. Pati says:

            MB, lol thank you for explaining ! Your a sweety!
            Hopefully K can find it

          2. MB says:

            Pati, she has all his stats assembled and can tell you more. As for my knowledge, he is tall, blonde, and has blue eyes. (And gorgeous legs!)

          3. Pati says:

            He certainly does and dont forget a sexy voice!
            He sounds very handsome just like I thought .Maybe i will leave the rest to my imagination.

        2. K says:

          Now you can use your imagination!

          Kiki says:
          September 26, 2018 at 19:25
          Dear HG , the pic of the dark shadow of a man in a suit on your YouTube videos ,is that actually you .If it is you nice shoulders ,
          Im just curious .

          Yours Kiki

          HG Tudor says:
          September 27, 2018 at 18:41
          It is, thank you.

      2. Violetta says:

        The Narchivist.

        My new superhero.

        1. K says:

          Hahaha…it does have a nice ring to it!

    2. K says:

      Here you go!

      K says:
      November 3, 2018 at 18:57
      HG is 6’ 1” with blond hair (think Daniel Craig), blue eyes and full lips.

      Strongerwendy says:
      June 25, 2018 at 20:52
      HG, do you look anything like this Herve Renard football coach I happened upon while watching world cup today? Very nice.

      HG Tudor says:
      June 25, 2018 at 21:09
      Ha ha, there are some similarities, but not dead ringers.

      HG Tudor
      JUNE 23, 2018 AT 23:37
      I am an actor but I m not a trained actor, therefore I would choose Christian Bale or Daniel Craig.

      1. Desirée says:

        Just when I thought I could not be more impressed with you. Seriously, how do you do that? Do you have the worlds best search engine at your finger tips or is that search engine just you brain? Also, I’m not trying to be pushy here but I just thought about how entertaining it would be if your username was actually “The Narchivist” and then we could cheer you on saying “The Narchivist strikes again!”

        1. K says:

          Hahahaha….“The Narchivist” would be a cool username!!! I just might change it. The worlds best search engine at my finger tips is correct. The magic is in the fingers!

          There are several ways to pull up old threads or comments. I use both the search function on narcsite and Google and, sometimes, I just remember the convo by the name of the thread.

          1. The morality convo is on the Fueltania thread a.k.a. A Stolen Love.
          2. The shampoo thread is on Viking by Creed (Perfect Scents)
          3. The peacock/animal/zoo comment is on the Assateague thread (Letter no- 40)
          4. The Micheal Jackson thread is The Narcissist’s Realty Gap.

          I use words to manipulate the search engines and find answers for the bloggers who need them. “The Narchivist strikes again!”

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG and K. I can not find any clear info. on google regarding what is: Royal Tea. Whether it is a company brand or a flavor or a type, etc.: I can not figure it out at all on that search engine. HG, Will you please tell me about the Royal Tea and the particulars about this tea? K. I remember Woke describing you as the Narchivist. I second!!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            It is Royal Blend tea. That is as far as this thread will go with regard to tea-drinking.

          3. K says:

            Hahahaha…thank you! Fortnum and Mason has a wonderful website and you find what you are looking for there.

      2. Pati says:

        Thank you so much K , i started the blog in Aug 2019 so i appreciate it ! I cant believe i visioned HG as Daniel Craig. Well he is a hunk then!

        1. K says:

          Of course he’s a hunk! Let me know if you want “The Full Monty” re: HG.

          1. Pati says:

            Hey ,sure K go for it the Full Monty regarding HG why not lol

          2. K says:

            Hahaha…ok, here’s The Full Monty!

            HG is an Ultra Elite Nomadic high functioning narcissistic psychopath, who is indirectly linked with Parliament. He likes to drink tea, either Royal Tea or Moroccan Mint Tea, both from Fortnum and Mason, and he does not frequent coffee shops. HG enjoys writing, history (especially 12-17th century English/British History), football, badminton, fencing, shooting, film, literature, fine dining, ballistics and weaponry and watching plays. He has 20/20 vision, which makes him an excellent marksman, and he can also fly planes and speak German. He follows The Economist, Financial Times and such like-for information.

            HG is 6’ 1” with blond hair (think Daniel Craig), blue eyes, full lips and arched eyebrows. 
He is a Gen-Xer, however, 3 fresh souls a day keeps him looking like he is 22. He’s a Virgo, who was born during the “Season of mists and mellow fruitfulness,” (autumn), and has 2 wishes: an extra set of hands and for people to understand he does not do the blog for fuel. Currently, he has five telephones.

            He is ambidextrous but his left hand is dominant. HG does not smoke (It’s a filthy and disgusting habit) or have any tattoos and his IQ is 134 (he scored a 1 on the HSP test). His preferred socks are TM Lewin, Ralph Lauren or Hugo Boss and he wears boxers; CK.

            Family Motto: Victoria Aut Morte, favorite football team: Manchester City, favorite band: Depech Mode.
            There are 25 hours in a Tudor day, and he enjoys eating souls for fun. Previously, he owned a Mercedes (anthracite black) then a Jaguar and now a Tesla Model S. HG triple tracks, never worries and is not lonely or sad; he is cold order and belongs to nobody.

            Engaged twice, married once, no children. His girlfriend is Sheildmaiden; he prefers Magnet Super Empaths and has never had an IPPS who was a narcissist and he likes to create ever presence with Viking by Creed.

            Lennox (brother): standard carrier empath.
            Rachael (sister): Co-dependent.
            Father: Co-dependent.
            MatriNarc: UMR Elite.

            Pssst…His name is john smith but don’t tell anybody.

          3. Pati says:

            Wow a lot of info on the king lol. THANKS K your the best !
            I also believe he likes creed cologne,wine,and finlandia

          4. K says:

            You are welcome Pati!
            Oh, I left out a lot of things but I will switch it up for the next time.

          5. Pati says:

            Thanks again K, please keep me updated!

          6. K says:

            My pleasure Pati and will do!

          7. K. I am so happy that HG drinks tea. I would never have guessed. I wonder what that Royal Tea tastes like. I am a tea-drinker– not a connoisseur though. But, I like the sound of that Royal Tea. Very interesting. K, are you sure that HG was not jesting regarding liking tea? Thanks for the info. I do not have an international sports team, so I will adopt the Manchester Team. So, I need to look up their schedule, etc. Huzzah! (HG, I do not desire to wear out the shout, Huzzah, but ever since I read it from you, I find it to be terrific! I just love it. And I do not know of a comparative exclamation according to my tastes. Huzzah! )

          8. K says:

            My pleasure PrincessSuperEmpath
            Huzzah, I’m a tea drinker, too. Order some Royal Tea and let us know if you like it. I asked him if he liked to drink tea when I was new to the blog and this was his answer.

            HG Tudor says:
            June 1, 2017 at 12:06
            I do drink tea. I drink either Royal Tea or Moroccan Mint Tea, both from Fortnum and Mason.


            HG Tudor
            JANUARY 16, 2019 AT 07:29
            1. I do not frequent coffee shops – I think I may have visited them less than half a dozen times in my life.
2. Nobody ignores me.


          9. K says:

            Here are more tea comments.

            HG Tudor says:
            March 27, 2017 at 11:42
            I don’t like Earl Grey. Breakfast tea or peppermint. I do not drink a lot of tea either.

            HG Tudor says:
            March 27, 2017 at 10:48
            Very rarely ABW, I am not a huge fan and usually only do so for a particular purpose. I prefer tea if I have a hot drink. Or hot vimto.


          10. Violetta says:

            Everybody supports Man U. Couldn’t you go off the beaten path a bit? West Ham, Luton, over half a dozen football clubs in Newcastle alone.

            Just don’t be a Liverpool Supporter. If HG supports Man U, that would put you in The Dungeon for sure.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Well not everybody supports Manchester United, if they did, no other teams would exist.

            There is only one professional league football team in Newcastle, that is Newcastle United. Gateshead are over River Tyne, but they are non-league. Sunderland are in League One and are about 15 miles away. After that you have Middlesbrough about 45 minutes´drive south of Newcastle. Beyond that there are a lot of non-league sides but that goes for all over the UK. If you are looking for league sides, the nearest to Newcastle is Sunderland, then Middlesbrough, after that you need to go north into Scotland or west to Carlisle or south to the Leeds/Bradford area for league sides.

            I do think that you need some lessons on British geography Violetta, you are clearly an educated person and I think especially so with regard to the arts and literature, but not geography and football!

            I do not support Manchester United. Suggesting that I do is a dungeon-worthy offence. Off you go!

          12. Violetta says:

            HG: K said you support Manchester City. I knew several grad students who all claimed to be Man U supporters, possibly as a hipster thing. (Clearly, there’s a distinction I didn’t get.) I admit, my personal experience of the UK is limited to one visit to London and two visits to Leeds, which I liked better because they don’t talk funny like Londoners.

            As for football, I got a Leeds United FC jersey partly as a tourist thing, since one conference-goer was on crutches and had promised to get her husband an LUFC keychain and I figured I’d pick up something for myself while I was in Leeds City Centre getting the keychain. I also got it partly in honor of my grandfather, who grew up in Leeds, though I have no idea whether he was a football supporter at all. Not that it matters, because a) we didn’t get on; and b) around the time I was there, LUFC were more famous for violence off the pitch than on it. Half of them were had up for Violent Assailing, or whatever the UK equivalent of A&B is.

          13. Violetta says:

            I am sorry I supposed you to be a Man U supporter, HG.

            I will never make such a horrid assumption again.

            Please stop putting Celine Dion on the speakers down here. There is such a thing as Cruel and Unusual Punishment, even for me.

          14. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            K. Thank you for the info. on HG and Tea. The info is quite worthwhile to me. (notice the rhyme?) lol.

          15. K says:

            My pleasure PrincessSuperEmpath
            Hahahaha….the rhyme is funny and I am very happy that you found the info worthwhile!

          16. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Violetta: I regret to inform you that I will not be taking your sporting recommendations especially attached with your geographical knowledge of Teams and their locations, at this time. I have decided to go in another direction. Do you have a favorite football team? Thank you kindly for your input.

        2. K says:

          My pleasure Pati!

        3. K says:

          This is the original comment re: DC.

          HG Tudor says:
          April 8, 2018 at 15:00
          Not Boris, Not Jude, DC is closer.

        4. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          Dearest HG: There are 2 Manchester teams? In the same League? Manchester City plays Manchester United this Saturday, if I am looking at the correct data. I guess Manchester is a large area to have 2 teams? Darn: I think Manchester United is having somewhat of a troubled season, so far. Oh no! And, Manchester United seems to have a lot of Draws. That seems odd. I wonder why is that. I don`t know how to analyze these standings with all of these Draws. But, a Draw is surely better than a loss. Anyway: Go Manchester U. Huzzah! HG, does this qualify as the oddest post of the day? Huzzah!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            As a result of this post, a town’s Christmas lights have been switched off.

          2. Pati says:

            Elfy can turn the Christmas lights back on if you let him.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            I’m lowering him into a vat of sulphuric acid so darkness will reign

          4. Pati says:

            HG, i dont want to see your darkside so no more Elfy!

          5. K says:

            Hahahahaha…you have saved Elfie from a gruesome demise.

            By acquiescing, you have provided fuel and confirmed HG’s supremacy over you and Elfie.

          6. K says:

            Hahahaha…challenge fuel. Thanks for the laugh!

          7. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG: If you do not not support Manchester United, then this team of the 2 Manchester teams, with the lesser record, Manchester United, is not my team, and then my team is probably Manchester City, with the better record so far this year. So just like that, in less than a minute, what will probably be my team is doing very well, Huzzah!, and must be Manchester City (and I thankfully would not have to reflect on all of those Draws). I definitely do not want to catch any feelings for the wrong team: HG, is Manchester City your team? I just want to be sure. Thank you.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Manchester City is my team.

            Your attitude towards football is what we call a glory supporter and would mean I would not want you supporting my team.

          9. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            HG. I am not a glory supporter. What an insult. If Manchester U. were your team, I would have willingly supported it, even with all of those Draws. But, I am not a glory supporter. Proof of this is that I am a Mets Fan in baseball in, while the glory supporters are Yankees Fan. But, yes, a winning record is better than a losing record, so if Manchester City is winning at this point, plus they are your team, thus my team, then yes. I am Glad. Huzzah!

          10. HG Tudor says:

            You chose the team with the better record, that is the very definition of a glory supporter!

          11. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG; I see now. You thought I was choosing a team because of its win loss draw record, just because I discussed that aspect. There is nothing wrong with me looking at how a team is doing. That does not make me an accursed Glory Supporter. But, I was not choosing a team because of that. I said earlier that I wanted what to me would be an international team, and K said Manchester was your team. I just erred on which of the 2 teams was yours. Now I know it is Manchester City, because that fact is clarified to me, now. I thought from Violetta that Manchester U was your team. So then it was my team. Then I saw that it seemed that Manchester C. was your team. So it became my team. I did not choose this team because of its record, at all. Or for any feeling of `glory.` I chose it because of you. But, winning will never be an insult to me,. If any team of mine were to win a game, or have a winning season.

          12. Dearest HG: When I first discussed the 2 Manchester Teams based on K reporting that Manchester was your team, I mistakenly thought that Manchester United was your team, and I discussed what appears to me to their current record of: Manchester United: 5 wins 6 draws 4 losses. I wondered about all the draws and I thought that they may need more deception in their technique: I only thought about this so much, because I thought this was your team and consequently my team. Then I found out that Manchester City is your team and therefore my team, with what appears to me to have a record thus far of: 10 wins 2 draws 3 losses. A very good record. So, there is no glory fandom involved on my side, just for noticing this very good record. Rather, I am making observations of these 2 teams. Being glad that ones team, in this case my new team of Manchester City, is having a good season is NOT being a glory fan. It is just being glad that my team is doing well, versus doing poorly or mediocre. Huzzah! I am not a Glory Fan. The `Glory `of either of these 2 teams, from my standpoint, and the reason for my choice, is that you chose the team, and in this case that glory goes to my new team of: Manchester City.

        5. Violetta says:


          Leeds, but they usually suck.

          Reasons for my support and their suckage in an earlier post.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            And they are dirty.

          2. Violetta says:

            HG, please take “It’s All Coming Back to Me Now” off “repeat.”

            I promise that–

            Do it to Julia! DO IT TO JULIA!!

          3. HG Tudor says:


          4. Violetta says:


            Dirty players, or dirty=unhygienic?

            Yeah, I know I’ve set myself up for the blanket answer “Yes.”

          5. HG Tudor says:


            Dirty players.

          6. Violetta: Thank you. Leeds of London sounds familiar to me.

          7. Violetta says:

            That’s Lloyd’s of London, Princess. Leeds is in West Yorkshire, home of the Brontes. Emily mocks Southron accents in Wuthering Heights.

          8. Violetta. Yes, Lloyds of London. That is probably what I am thinking of. Probably, rarely, Leeds is mistakenly placed to be of London also over here, then: Such as in this case here with the popular online shopping site Etsy that has 91 items for sale under the category of Leeds of London: Popular items for leeds of london
            (91 Results)

          9. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Violetta: I find your spelling of the classic drawl, in U.S. southern accents, the best I ever saw. I noticed when you gave an example of a female, not Scarlett, in your hypothetical script, a week or so ago. If someone wanted to try out and speak a classic southern drawl, according to your spelling style, they would nail it. lol. I know, and I used to have a medium southern drawl, the bad kind, but my parents hired a speech coach to tame it. They did not have one, because they were not from the South, but I picked it up. The way some writers spell, to create the classic southern drawl, makes me cringe.

          10. Violetta says:

            Leeds United can’t help it, HG. They all have CTE from having their heads Cracked Together Like Coconuts when they grew up.

            I could deal with the Titanic Theme being piped into the dungeon, but “It’s All Coming Back to Me Now” was my Room 101.
            2+2=5, we have always been at War with Eastasia, and the Ministry of Plenty has raised the Choco ration from 25g to 20g.

            Folks, don’t give the Tude ‘tude. He don’t mess around.

          11. Violetta says:

            Princess: I learned that from Florence King. She had a real gift for capturing the voices. She grew up in Virginia and was used to her Granny’s Tidewater accent, but when she went to grad school in Mississippi, the gushing of all the wannabe Campus Cuties in the throes of what King called “the Pert Plague” drove her up a wall.

      3. Violetta says:

        Hmmph! That’s it for my long-distance Stan Sugar Harem Addicted Brainwashed Cult Crush. I like scruffy, moody men with longish dark hair and 3-day stubble.

        Off to stalk somebody else now.

        Don’t tell Pamela.

        1. K says:

          Hahaha…oh, Pamela may be reading this and she will know all about it!

          “The Police: Every Breath You Take

          That was one of your favourite songs wasn’t it?

          Until I told you what the lyrics really meant.”

          1. Violetta says:

            There’s always Ron Gallo’s “Young Lady, You’re Scaring Me.” No ambiguity there!

  5. MommyPino says:

    Hi HG, I have been looking for the page: Look Who’s Come to Dinner but couldn’t find it. It always says 404 error page not found. Did it get removed?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello MP, no, it has returned. To save me time, I changed its publication times which means it disappears into the ether for a short time and then comes back at the scheduled time, intact with comments from before. (This is faster for me than copying and pasting into a new article).

      1. MB says:

        I’ve noticed this happening with the articles. Thank you for explaining the phenomenon. I thought you might gaslighting us! Ha ha

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You may think that, but you would be wrong, MB.

      2. MommyPino says:

        Thank you for explaining HG!

  6. misstasia says:

    I have found myself analyzing everything and everyone I meet or know. What they say, how they say it, their behavior, reactions. Love is not all around us, narcissism is all around us. I have also found myself to be cynical these days. Is this as good as it gets now? I just don’t want to put myself out there anymore. So either way, until I find the middle I am isolating myself and thus letting the narc win. Sure I’m still functioning nobody knows how I really feel inside, I still know how to put my social face on, I am grateful for my freedom and happy with what I have, my accomplishments and what is still to come. However, when it comes to love I say ba humbug!

  7. Cyn says:

    John Denver was a narcissist? Yep, here I go….

    1. Renarde says:

      Denver always left me cold when I saw him on the telly as a nipper.

      1. Violetta says:

        I give him credit for testifying against music censorship in the ’90s. They made a movie about it in which Denver shows up looking like a Clean Livin’ tree-huggin’ ’70s relic from Central Casting. When Dee Snider (playing himself) finds to his surprise that Denver is against censorship because people misinterpreted nature-worship song “Rocky Mountain High” as a paean to drugs, Snider gasps, “You are my HERO!”

        1. Renarde says:


          Well. Good! I think.

          Annie’s Song is still shit though…

          1. Violetta says:


            According to Dave Barry’s Book of Bad Songs, people frequently think the lyrics are “you fill out my census.”

            Could be an improvement.

          2. AnneB says:

            Renarde, that’s really funny ;-}. Someone singing with such emotion about the census – or getting all fuzzy about the N filling out their census for them (Control, boundaries, no consent) – making myself laugh now. And this makes me recall happily singing along to “Alex the Seal” with my bro as kids or teens. You know “Alex the Seal” by the GoGos.

          3. AnneB says:

            Sorry, above comment re “You fill out my census” should have been addressed to Violetta. I misread. Good one Violetta.

  8. privatejourney60 says:

    HG, once again, grateful beyond words. The reality of emotional-psychological terrorism of devaluation, then physical abuse exists behind closed doors. The realities are disturbing to one’s senses in contrast to ‘familial and religious’ indoctrinations, enabling of (worldwide) misogynistic community, infrastructure of justice system and medical systems that monetizes the broken spirit of women.

    1. Renarde says:

      private journey

      In so much agreement.

    2. lisk says:


      I’d say there’s quite a misandrist community out there, too. And plenty of female narcs who are abusing and damaging boys-to-men, along with girls-to-women, as well.

      Always keep in mind: Narcissism is an equal-opportunity destroyer.

      1. Getting There says:


        There were a few girls when I was growing up whose bullying ways were just cruel. After reading your comment, I wonder if they grew up and became kind as they grew out of childhood or did they grow up continuing to not care if they hurt another.

        I was just listening to “Greensleeves.” I didn’t think about it before but I wonder about the author and the one he loved. Was one of them a narcissist? If so, which one?

        1. Violetta says:

          It’s rumored Henry VIII wrote it, in which case, he’s the narc. It may be much older than that, though. It wasn’t attributed to him with the same certainty that “Pastime with Good Company” has been.

          1. Getting There says:

            I had read that as well and that some say it originated in Italy prior to Henry VIII. If listening to the song, it sounds like the lady could be narcissistic. I did a search though and found a longer version. The lyrics of the longer version could lend to a Golden Period of the author. I will go back to listening to it thinking of the sadness and hope he is feeling.

          2. Violetta says:

            There are some sources arguing that having “green sleeves” may signify grass stains on her clothing, i.e., she’s been rolling around in a field with someone. Probably someone else, since he doesn’t sound very happy about it

  9. Violetta says:

    Ironic that you are areligious, HG. Romeo and Juliet, with their talk of pilgrims, palmers, saints, granting for prayer’s sake, and most of all, “the god of my idolatry,” would be considered impious in the middle ages and Renaissance.

    Chaucer’s Troilus and Criseyde, which Shakespeare undoubtedly read, finishes its story of love, betrayal, and heartbreak with a call to the reader to forget pagan gods of love, Cupid, Venus, Eros, and seek the Christian God of love. One was never to put the creation before the Creator

    Both you and the theologians had severe doubts about romantic love.

    Skepticism makes strange bedfellows.

  10. Pati says:

    I think i will watch the Wizard of Oz with my daughter tonight. There are no love scenes in that movie. Just love between friends following the yellow brick road.

    1. MB says:

      Yes Pati, but it was just a dream too, like the Golden Period!

      1. Pati says:

        Yes it was all just a fantasy MB!

  11. Claudia says:

    “Giving you the last Rolo.” LOLOLOL

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That’s a good one.

    2. MB says:

      If it was the last Dorito, it would be everlasting love 🥰

    3. That was my first present from my narc ex. Sterling silver one. Currently for sale on eBay.

      1. lisk says:

        Sterling silver Rolo?

  12. Pati says:

    We are to blame for believing all these things.
    How did we know it was all false? because we were being conned. What is love anyway? I thought it exsisted but it really is a fairytale and should be kept at the movie theatre. I would rather be alone than go through this again. Thanks HG for this article it goes to show you this is all fake.

    1. E. B. says:

      Some of those things mentioned in the article do exist (I am not speaking about the films) as long as your partner isn’t highly narcissistic or a narcissist.

      1. Pati says:

        Hi E.B.
        The problem is my husband is a Narcissist and it does change everything that I believed in. HG is correct when looking back most of my Exes were Narcissist. My boyfriend in college was he would break up with me and then Hoover me all the time, until I married one We are addicted to them. Addicted to Narcs = Addicted to love
        Hugs xoxo

      2. Cloudy says:

        E B

        I agree it exists

  13. Violetta says:

    What about Beatrice and Benedick? Calvin and Susie Derkins? Vinnie and Lisa? What about CS Lewis’ Aravis and Cor, who “were so used to quarreling and making it up again that they got married so as to go on doing it more conveniently”?

    Why can’t I have someone for fighting o’ days and foining o’ nights? (And it’s no use telling me to patch up mine old body for heaven. I want to go to heaven–but not yet.)

    1. Renarde says:

      I love the Aravis and Cor quote. Almost Wildean.

  14. cogra002 says:

    Great point. Maybe I should watch fewer Hallmark movies?! That’s my perfect world, with the best clarinet playing. My perfect world would be just like that, except I’d be the clarinetist in the background, also.
    I’m well aware of all the social brainwashing you talk about. Great point. It’s in film, music, fashion, food, poetry, novels…. It’s unrealistic from my current experience, but I don’t see anything actually wrong with it if u find a likeminded person. Wonder if that ever happens, or is the Narc pretending to be that as close as we’ll ever get. 🤔

    1. Pati says:

      Cogra002, if there are 2 Empaths watching romantic movies then its all good. Watching them with the Narcissist no! We see the world differently.

  15. Angie says:

    Love is evident every where and always will be as ordained by God

    1. Renarde says:

      Loved the first part. Hated the second. I get tetchy about ‘ordained’. Way too close to ‘control’ in my book.

  16. NotMe! says:

    Hmmm, I get your point, but while I’ll admit I’m a love devotee, when N announced that he loved me and yes, always had, I didn’t bite to start for quite some time Even soppy empaths have different ideas of what love is, we’re not all Disney type love devotees who need hearts and flowers forever you know?
    I told him that what I really wanted in my life was someone I could say anything to and be myself with (pardon the grammar). Then hey presto, he provided my wish, for a while at least.
    I’m starting to believe that I was a royal pain in his ass as I didn’t roll over for what is probably the usual strategy. This comforts me quite a bit.

  17. Chihuahuamum says:

    This is why i no longer read romance novels or super sappy happily ever after movies bc it does set you up for unrealistic expectations in life. Then you expect others to live up to those expectations. Ive also quit comparing my life to others. I used to feel so sad comparing other mother daughter relationships to mine. I felt i was owed a close relationship with my mother but as i matured psychologicaly i realise thats an unrealistic expectation.
    Same with my marriage. I needed to realise i made a choice staying with someone who was different from me intimately instead of expecting him to be someone hes not nor will be.
    Movies, romance novels get your head in the clouds! Its freeing to have a clear mind and accept this is a bunch of nonesense and not the case in most situations!

    1. C-Mum: I think social media and all, is some sort of romance novel as well. Ever since I have been on my GOSO and have not even peeped at my Facebook Page in about 6 months or so, I am feeling mentally and emotionally stronger. On here at Narcsite, although it is social media, posters` postings seem to me to be more realistic, and thus I can relate to everyone on here, whether they are at a low point or at a medium point or at a high point, in their postings: No one person on here is simultaneously hitting the lotto, and flying on a private jet, and having eyelash extensions (while her surrogate gives birth to her twins in a private location), while the chef that she has always wanted, has moved into her mansion to report for duty, in time for her to have a light afternoon snack, before she attends the annual Ball, ALL on the same day.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi princesssuperempath….so true social media is a big lie in many respects and sometimes not intentional but moreso people post the good and not as much the bad in their lives. A good example were shannan and chris watts many thought thru social media they had the ideal life but i do think that image was intentional bc we see thru shannans conversations with friends it was not at all what was portrayed on social media.
        Ive learned not to go by face value especially on social media.
        Another example…a couple i was friends with were always doting on each other in public and overly affectionate to the point of it being awkward. Theyd be french kissing in front of myself and others. A year later it was revealed he was physically and emotionally abusive and they had divorced. I suspect he was a lesser and i know she was a midranger!
        I try not to compare and just be happy for others blessings. I find im much happier when i do opposed to being jealous or envious. Everyone has their own journey. Gratitude daily for what i do have! Id much rather reality than get carried away by supposed fantasies of perfect lives.

    2. Taryn says:

      You are so right. It’s the same thing with me, including the Mother/daughter dynamic. You’ve illustrated a very important fact, that what we fill our heads with and allow ourselves to be exposed to affects our outlook on life and colors our expectations of everything in our lives. Therefore we should be extremely judicious of what we allow to influence us, be it certain people, song lyrics, books, and most especially our own unrealistic and maladaptive thought processes. Cognitive behavioral therapy is a huge help in that regard, at least it has been for me. I learned about CBT techniques from a book and the techniques have been very helpful in most areas of my life.

      Anyway, I just wanted to emphasize just how right you are. What others have done to us may be terrible, but we have to be mindful of our expectations and how we process our experiences. We have to pay attention to the facts, the evidence, rather than our feelings. Thanks for the reminder and I hope you have a great day (or night, depending on where you are) 🌷

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi taryn
        Cbt is a wonderful tool. Ive read a couple books but need to reread. Its really helped my life by accepting what IS instead of fighting what i feel it should be. Also realising i can create my own happiness despite certain areas of my life not being what i wanted them to be. I try to practice gratitude daily and this has increased my feeling of being content and happy.
        There will always be that part of me thats a little girl who wanted a mother she could depend on to nurture her and be her friend and confidant. Thats left a void in my life but im choosing to fill it with self love and things that make me feel whole again. I wish i could reach out and hug every person who has that child within them that feels that void and is searching for it in the wrong places or dwelling on the sadness of it. I hope they can climb out and see theres other roads that can be taken in life and rebuilding a new life is possible and staying stuck in that void isnt necessary.

    3. MommyPino says:

      C-mum, The romantic movies made me think that maybe my normal husband lacked passion and our marriage is boring. Now I know that he may not be passionate like a Romeo but he has always been there for me literally and figuratively and he’s always trying to make my life better, happier and easier. Even though he never tells me any flowery words and his flowers always come from the grocery store, he is my always dependable and always reliable man who loves me in his own reliable and dependable way. 🥰

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi mommypino….your hubby sounds like hes very attentive and that is a wonderful quality :)

        1. MommyPino says:

          Thank you C-mum. He is absolutely wonderful.

      2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        MommPino: Wow. I just saw the Lyrics on that Eggman and Walrus song that you posted I can not believe it. Remind me to never do drugs. I will just say, NO. I think lyrics like that should be shown to young teens to show a mind on drugs. I never saw lyrics like that. I heard the song before, but I guess I did not focus on the lyrics.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I do not think that a song which managed to be number one and number two simultaneously on the British charts stands as a good example of a reason not to do drugs.

          You will find far clearer examples, such as videos of people who have taken spice.

          1. Dearest HG. The fear of myself doing drugs has already set in for me even greater with the lyrics of what you know to be a popular, top selling, and well-favored song: the eggman and walrus song. Now, if the videos of people using spice that you are bringing up are an even better example of the bad that can happen to people`s mind when taking drugs, then my fear is even more heightened about drug usage. I am very afraid. I am a great fan of the human mind, and I do not want people to so easily trust putting drugs into their body, since their mind lives there, but, of course, people have free choice to do so, as I know, of course.

          2. Getting There says:

            PSE, I like your rationale on why you don’t use drugs!
            I have known many who have used drugs, or still do, and understand their reasons for it.

            I was once prescribed medicine for a medical issue. When I took it I felt weird and zany, and the world seemed a lot out of control. I told the doctor never again as I never wanted to feel that way. I have been drunk and the world has spun, but that is different than what I felt with that medicine.

            Have you watched the animated “Alice in Wonderland” from many years ago? I liked it as a child but saw it recently as an adult. It reminded me of one of my many reasons why I could not do drugs.

          3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Getting There: I did not know that Alice in Wonderland was animated. I would love to watch it. I never read the famous book. So, I think it is about time. Once, I had a somewhat bad injury, and the doctor gave me pain killers and then a: True Strange Story: Next, I was walking on the literal highway in the middle of the night, trying to get back to the hospital, for some odd reason. I was in a surreal state, it seems. The doctor was embarrassed and he took me off of the painkillers. I was around 18 years old. I think I was both sleepwalking and on my way probably to becoming addicted, I would guess now, looking back on it all, and seeing all the oxycontin and such addicts that became addicted via medical pain treatment. He immediately took me off the painkiller and he also apologized to me. I forgot about that experience until now. Weird stuff.

          4. Getting There says:

            That is scary, PSE! I’m glad you are safe and the doctor stopped that prescription!

            Doctors have such responsibility when it comes to medicine. They can’t control addictions but they can monitor when someone is taking the medicine. I am thankful that I found a doctor who will only prescribe if absolutely necessary and there is no other option.

            I know families who have been torn apart due to drugs. It is very sad! There was a post recently on an Instagram account I follow. The adult child had been doing drugs. During one of his times it caused him to black out and do violent things, which he doesn’t remember. Although his parents love him, they got a restraining order against him after that episode. He has been clean now for some time and they invited him to Thanksgiving this year.

            The animated movie came out in the 50s.

        2. Violetta says:

          Princess: I’ve known more weed users than acid-heads, but for real scary, nothing so far beats Bath Salts or Meth. The first two are most likely to sit there for hours, harmless to their neighbors except for the constant Floyd. The last two kill their kids and eat you.

          1. MommyPino says:

            Violetta I have seen scary videos of someone under the influence of Bath Salts trying to eat a homeless person alive.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Try a city centre every Friday and Saturday night. Alcohol.

        3. Liza says:

          when i was in high school i went to the doctor for an issue, and at some point my mother told her that my insomnia is worsening, the doctor decided to give me sleeping pills, but the dumb me was so traumatised with the adds and all the fuss about drugs, that i was thinking ” i know you are trying to make me a zambi, don’t bother pretending you want to help ” i didn’t take the pills.

        4. MommyPino says:

          PSE I agree!! Drugs is something that I have never tried because I just don’t see the point of doing it. And this song indeed shows how crazy drugs can make someone. It is hard to read that lyrics. This song also shows Lennon’s entitlement and grandiosity by selling crap to people. He was interviewed about it and he said that the song didn’t have any meaning. “The words didn’t mean a lot. People draw so many conclusions, and it’s ridiculous. I’ve had tongue in cheek all along–all of them had tongue in cheek. Just because other people see depths of whatever in it…What does it really mean, ‘I am the Eggman?’ It could have been ‘The pudding Basin’ for all I care. It’s not that serious.” It also shows how ridiculously stupid people can be buying something like that just because it was made by someone that they believe is a musical genius. While I agree that he has written some amazing songs, I don’t believe that everything that came out of him was a masterpiece. I remember watching an old movie about the manic worshipping of the Beatles where fans are actually willing to pay for strands of hair from the Beatles singers.

      3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        MommyPino: I have heard that some people trip on drugs and never come out of it. And have to be institutionalized. Permanent eggmen and walruses. So very scary. Those lyrics you posted frightened me away from drugs more than any, `Don`t do drugs,` commercial. I would advise people that do drugs to sort of back off of them, if possible, and quickly, before some sort of breach or damage takes hold. Before, one day one could be okay, and the next day one could be a permanent eggman or walrus. Boom. Just like that.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You have heard incorrectly.

        2. MommyPino says:

          Hi PSE, what permanently frightened me from ever doing drugs was an incident in my grandmother’s province where a drug addict hacked his parents and siblings while he was under the influence. He said that they thought that they were banana trees. In my province banana trees are everywhere and they hack the trunk to get the fruits. They just grow back after several months. I was probably in third grade at that time and I just thought whatever it is that can make a person do something like that, I don’t ever want it in my body.

  18. Violetta says:

    Then what DO we want? Or what SHOULD we want?

    And what if we don’t want it? If I’m not “in love,” I not only don’t want to share a bed with a man, I don’t want to see him across a breakfast table.

    I know the intensity fades with time, but I still think the iambic pentameter would have informed Romeo and Juliet’s lives if they’d gone on to argue about house payments and soccer practice in Mantua.

    Besides, HG, this is your worldview, in which Love is an illusion. Narcs may take advantage of Lurve, but what if I met a non-narc who had similar concepts to mine?

  19. Getting There says:

    Annie’s Song was written in 10 minutes on a ski lift after a fight with his wife. Those were his feelings, how is that unrealistic if his feelings are real?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is the control of the narrative which is misleading.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      He didn’t know to write:
      You fill me with fuel…
      In place of:
      You fill up my senses

      1. cogra002 says:


        1. Pati says:

          Mine would say come on baby light my fire.

      2. Getting There says:

        HG and NA, thank you for trying to help me understand! I’m missing the boat, though. I cannot see John Denver as a narcissist. Was he one?

        Yes the song is one of my favorite and very romantic, so maybe my thoughts are skewed. The descriptions of what he compares to her filling up his senses are different types of nature settings that are calm and peaceful. They aren’t descriptions usually used of nature and power such as “you fill up my senses like a hurricane off the east coast.” They aren’t even scenes that depict excitement like “you fill up my senses like a large surfing wave.” His later verse where he says “let me love you… let me give my life to you…” are controlling but not in a way of “let me let you give your life to me.” He wants to give of himself and only asks that she love him. Isn’t that selfless?

        1. lisk says:

          Getting There,

          The last four words of Annie’s song are “come love me again.” Somewhere in the middle of it, Denver also sings, “come fill me again!”

          He doesn’t really even ask. Not even a “please!”

          1. Getting There says:

            Hello, Lisk.

            That is a good point. I have read the great insights I have been given and listened to that song multiple times since. The comments have slightly changed how I hear the words. I still like the idea of the peace and calm feeling one brings to another; and I like the sharing of feelings. Maybe there is a better song that does both but doesn’t have some of those other aspects.

          2. lisk says:

            Getting There,

            My guess is that the pop song, or even the folk song, that brings peace and calm feeling is a rare thing.

            I wonder, though, why do you desire peace, calm, and sharing of feelings in a song?

          3. Getting There says:

            Hello, Lisk.

            Ever since I can remember, music has a way with me. It can impact my feelings and thoughts.
            If I am spun up or sad, music helps me through or keeps me there if I feel I need to stay in that mood for a little while. If I am happy, music helps keep that going. If I need my mind to stay focused, I listen to music.
            There are classical songs which I love because of the beauty of the notes together, and the feelings those songs connect to. Words, for songs with words, matter. I can enjoy a song that I may not enjoy the words for other reasons. I have found, though, that many times words of songs can speak my thoughts and feelings probably better than I could. I have sent songs to family or friends or those I was in a relationship which I felt can say what I was thinking or feeling, either about them or a situation,
            in a way that makes sense. This is why I think of music in terms of relationships as well. What would I like for me to feel or think of another? What would I like for them to feel or think of me?
            Peace and calm? I want it. I come from a home of parents constantly fighting; I have had two relationships where it has been fighting and roller coaster, or such excitement and butterflies that you can’t just enjoy the moment. I want peace and calm in a relationship; I want to be a part of someone’s peace and calm in that relationship; and I want them to be a part of my peace and calm in that relationship.

          4. Violetta says:

            Getting There, I agree with everything you’ve said about the effect of music and lyrics, but with the opposite goal. At points of stress, the only thing that has helped sometimes is cranking up the Ramones or the Pixies and bouncing around the room crashing into the furniture.
            The Pixies’ “Dead” was particularly effective, and I didn’t even understand the words for years because Frank Black is screaming his head off.

          5. Getting There says:

            Hello, Violetta.

            I had heard of the Ramones but had not heard any of their song and looked them up. I had to look up Pixies and their song “Dead.” That seems like a fun way to work through stress!! Do you find that you are usually calm? The reason I ask is that I was talking to someone who is one of the calmest people I know in situations that would upset others. He was telling me that he used to have anger issues as a child. His favorite music and the music that he puts on during stressful times is heavy metal. The closest I have to a screaming song for when I need one is Matchbox 20 “Back 2 Good.”

            I have wondered that if there was music during sex would I get distracted listening to the song. LOL

          6. Violetta says:

            Getting There:
            I’m not at all a calm person, but having an outlet keeps me from being even more of a basket case. One afternoon, another stressed-out grad student and I stomped around my living room to the Pixies’ “U-Mass,” shrieking sarcastically, “It’s EDUCATIONAL!”

            When I did my dissertation defense, I had warned the grad students I shared an office with that however it went, there would be Ramones. I figured “Rock and Roll High School” if I failed (“I don’t care about history, cause that’s not where I want to be”), “Sheena is a Punk Rocker” if I passed.

            Fortunately, it was “Sheena” (although my 2nd reader couldn’t resist one last chance to try to throw me, until the Rhetoric professor came to my rescue).

            One TA was conferencing with a student when I got back to the office, and when the student saw me (wearing semi-corporate attire) turning my corner of the office into my personal moshpit, the TA just told him, “She just passed a really big test.” He told me later the student seemed to accept that simple explanation without being much fazed.

          7. Getting There says:

            Congratulations on all! That took a lot of dedication and self!
            Completing the dissertation and then successfully defending it is a cause for a celebration. I could see why the student would not be surprised. LOL
            It sounds like you found a great way to release some of the built up energy inside when you need it. That’s great!

    3. Renarde says:

      Getting there

      That song is a maudlin bunch of arse.Ne er liked it. Always set my teeth on edge.

      Screams Victim.

      YOU lift up my senses…Come lift them again.

      Nothing about what he wants to do for her. Of course not! He wants her fuel, he doesnt want to give her his energy.


      1. Getting There says:

        Hello, Renarde.

        Thank you for sharing that! I definitely will listen again with your description in mind to help me see.

        I understand what you are saying about how he is not saying what he will do for her. He doesn’t. He is sharing what he feels. The song itself was after a fight with his spouse. I don’t know what was said in the fight but it can be a response to the comments his wife said.

        A more overarching aspect of how I hear this song is a willingness to share feelings of oneself and not expect mind reading. This song is a moment in time, not the entirety of a relationship. I want a relationship where my significant other trusts me with sharing his feelings; it is as important as my ability to share mine. I’m a talker; and I need to know that I am not just in this relationship and the person is getting nothing out of it while I get everything.
        Another consideration is that what is romantic and speaks to one may not work for another. I have experienced where men seem to think that flowers and jewelry are the answer to showing their love. Not for this girl on either. The song “That’s What I Like” by Bruno Mars annoys me. He’s listing what he is willing to do for her. Lucky her, he likes it too. It doesn’t say “yeah, this guy has an actual connection.”

        Thank you for being willing to help me understand!

        1. Renarde says:

          Getting There

          My pleasure! And this has now has all the makings of a great sub thread.

          Forgive me, I have no wish to trample on what others love. I’m simply saying I dont like it.

          You’ve made me think a lot today about why I like some music and not others.

          Going back to Denver.

          That phrase I quoted is in two parts. This is just my take.

          You fill up my senses

          Yup. Ok by me. You are expressing how someone makes you feel.

          Come fill me again

          Yeah, THIS is problematic. It’s a call to action to her. Nothing about how hes sorry, or what he will do etcs…

          Looking at another love song, Lennons Jealous Guy. The first time I heard this I was astounded. The melody is simple but yet developed. The words are sublime.

          He says that he was jealous. He was sorry he made her cry. Now to my mind, Lennon is a difficult character. Ive no idea if hes a narc. He certainly scores high on traits. Lennon was a genious. Denver, not so much.

          Denver’s song is hawkish but Lennon is Lennon. Believe me, I don’t like the love song genre in any form.

          To my mind, all great art encapsulates emotion, complex emotion but put in a simple way. That’s the essence of Jealous Guy. Imagine is another one.

          Queens Love of my Life is another one and let’s not forget the narcsite perennial favourite, The Power of Love.

          Others that spring to mind are Billie Halliday, Nina Simone and Amy Winehouse.

          Performers I loathe.

          Chris Rea – God. You punish us!!!
          Neil Diamond – Why? Why?
          Phil Collins – Jesus Christ.
          Dire Straits – The clue is in the name…

          Borng. Middle of the road. Unoffensive. Lift music.

          And thus I end the case for The Prosecution.

      2. Violetta says:

        Would you prefer Positive K’s “I Got a Man”?
        I want to turn you on and excite you
        Let me know the spot on your body and I bite you
        So when your man don’t treat you like he used to
        I kick in like a turbo booster
        You know what’s the problem, ya not used to learnin’
        I’m big daddy longstroke, and your man’s pee wee herman

        1. Renarde says:


          Eep! That’s…challenging.

          I will take that and raise you this…

          1. Violetta says:

            Not a patch on Salt-n-Pepa’s “Push it REAL good!”

          2. Renarde says:

            Ha ha! Loved that song when I was a little cub!

        2. Getting There says:

          I had to look up “Jealous Guy.” I’m not a John Lennon fan so I didn’t know it. I liked reading your list!
          I like “Can’t Take My Eyes Off You,” “Sway” with Michael Buble, and love “My Confession” by Josh Groban. I knew someone who thought “2 Out of 3 Ain’t Bad” was a romantic song; it wasn’t my preference of how I saw romance.

          LOL I give the person credit for being confident. I prefer “Must be Doin’ Somethin’ Right” by Billy Currington.

          1. Violetta says:

            I love ’90s rap, when it’s funny and snotty. “Baby Got Back” is always great for getting people out on the dance floor.

            The current mumble-rap, however….

          2. Violetta says:

            Some of Lennon’s stuff is scary: “Run for Your Life” and “You Can’t Do That,” for example.

            He had a lot of narc qualities, but was probably not full narc. He admitted his abusive behavior towards women. He once said in an interview that he emphasized Peace because he knew he was a violent man.

            Yoko, OTOH….

          3. Getting There says:

            My friends and I used to play “Baby Got Back” a lot and “Funky Cold Medina.” Salt N Peppa’s “Shoop” is a fun song to rap with.
            I do like Eminem ‘s older stuff.

          4. Getting There says:

            Thank you for sharing that about John Lennon.

            I wonder how many song writers are empaths and how many are narcissistic or narcissists. I need to look up how a normal would see romance and which song matches their style.

            I wonder if Eminem is an empath. I used to think that his ability to share his thoughts in his songs made him open and honest. It’s like Elvis. He was very giving, so I assume empath.

          5. Violetta says:

            I’m always up for “My Name Is,” “The Real Slim Shady,” and of course “Lose Yourself,” but I find “Kim,” um, disturbing.

          6. Getting There says:

            I agree, Violetta. I also like “Mockingbird.” The song “Without Me” reminds me of a possible narcissist I once knew. I look back and think of how little I understood of his personality then but I was attracted to it.

          7. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There,
            I think that John Lennon was a narcissist. He was emotionally abusive to both of his sons, especially the first son. The son with Yoko Ono was his golden child that was used to triangulate with the older son but even that favored son also said that he was abused too.

            I don’t think that John Lennon was all that too. He wrote some good songs but he also wrote crappy ones.

            I do wonder if John Denver was a narcissist. I am unaware of anything about his personal life that would indicate such. He seemed like a really nice guy and I am not aware of any stories from people who knew him intimately that they were abused. I have heard that he was best friends with Clint Eastwood and I’m also very curious what Clint Eastwood is.

          8. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There,

            I looked up John Denver and found some disturbing details about him and his ex wife Annie. He actually tried to choke her. He also sawed their marital bed in half with a chainsaw. That sounds like fury to me and not just a normal anger. Even I wouldn’t do something like that in my worst furious or rage moments in my life. So it does sound like Denver was indeed a narcissist. I saw that info from this article:

            Also I found more info on John Lennon. I already knew these before but I thought I would share. I really believe that he was a narcissist.


            Also a lot of Lennon’s songs look like an incoherent word salad such as I am the Walrus. His Bless You song makes me feel nauseous.

            “ I am he as you are he
            As you are me and we are all together
            See how they run like pigs from a gun
            See how they fly
            I’m crying
            Sitting on a cornflake
            Waiting for the van to come
            Corporation tee-shirt
            Stupid bloody Tuesday
            Man, you been a naughty boy
            You let your face grow long
            I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
            I am the walrus, goo goo g’joob
            Mister City Policeman sitting
            Pretty little policemen in a row
            See how they fly like Lucy in the Sky
            See how they run
            I’m crying
            I’m crying
            Yellow matter custard
            Dripping from a dead dog’s eye
            Crabalocker fishwife
            Pornographic priestess
            Boy, you been a naughty girl
            You let your knickers down
            I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
            I am the walrus, goo goo g’joob
            Sitting in an English garden
            Waiting for the sun
            If the sun don’t come
            You get a tan From standing in the English rain
            I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
            I am the walrus, goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
            Expert textpert choking smokers
            Don’t you thing the joker laughs at you
            See how they smile like pigs in a sty
            See how they snied. I’m crying
            Semolina pilchard, climbing up the Eiffel Tower
            Elementary penguin singing Hari Krishna
            Man, you should have seen
            Them kicking Edgar Allan Poe
            I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
            I am the walrus, goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
            Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
            Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
            Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
            Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
            Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob
            Goo goo g’joob g’goo goo g’joob”

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Whilst Lennon was a narcissist, the song I Am A Walrus is an amalgam of three songs which he was unable to finish and part of it was written under the influence of LSD. It is not a word salad.

          10. MommyPino says:

            Getting There,

            One of the songs that I used to really love when I was young (high school to early 20’s) is Somebody by Depeche Mode. Just like Annie’s Song, I thought Somebody describes how true love is and that song always takes me to a very deep and peaceful place. Now when I hear it, I still love the melody and the voice but the words itself has a different meaning to me now. It’s I want I want. It seems like it was written by a narcissist too.

            “ I want somebody who cares
            For me passionately
            With every thought
            With every breath
            Someone who’ll help me see things
            In a different light
            All the things I detest
            I will almost like
            I don’t want to be tied
            To anyone’s strings
            I’m carefully trying to steer clear of
            Those things”

          11. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino.

            I have not been fans of either John Lennon or The Beatles. I know some of their famous songs, but I don’t seek out playing any of their music. I don’t get the whole Golden Child versus Scapegoat treatments; it’s wrong.

            I almost wonder if John Denver is that elusive normal. He had his issues but seemed to care deeply about his children and different causes. He was rejected from singing “We are the World” even though he asked to be a part of it; however, there isn’t any record of him slamming the song or the cause it supported. The information came out due to the one he asked sharing it.

            Those words of that Depeche Mode song do sound like what I think a narcissist would want. Maybe that is why HG likes them as their words may connect with him. Do you have any songs now that you think describe love to you?

            It’s interesting how lyrics take a different meaning at different times in life. Ever since I was a young girl, I don’t know why but “Don’t Cry Out Loud” seemed to be my anthem on how to deal and great advice. I listen to it now and think it is fine for me but would not want my son to think these lyrics match how he should deal with things.

          12. lisk says:


            So many of these lyrics work to reinforce the construct of romantic love, the nature of modern sexual desire/practice, etc.

            That’s kind of why I asked you earlier about why you look for peace/calm/sharing in a song.

            I used to own/listen to so much music w/lyrics when I was a teenager. I knew all the words to every song.

            Then I deliberately quit it all before I was 20. I just had enough of people singing to me how or what to feel, how or what to think.

            And then I met a Somatic narc and started listening again. Grrr…I bought into that crap once more (except for Celine Dion—no joke—can’t believe I was with someone who enjoyed her!).

            Later, with Narcx, the beginning was fantastic. We didn’t listen to music at all, not in the car or in our home. It was just us. We didn’t even watch tv or movies. (While this is how I liked it, I’m sure this was Narcx’s way of focusing all attention on himself and controlling the message.)

            I should have realized that the “relationship” was in trouble when we started putting on tunes while cooking dinner and watching movies after we ate.

            Looking back, I see that, at that point, there was only emptiness. The music and the movies were our way of trying to fill the void, to hold up a construct that we could no longer sustain ourselves—to hold “us” over until Narcx could find and install a new fuel source.

            Now it’s mostly silence again, and I am at peace. If I do listen to music, it’s mostly lyric-less or has lyrics in languages I barely understand.

          13. Violetta says:

            Mommy Pino:

            A lot of lyrics in Walrus are references to the Alice books. The title itself is from “The Walrus and the Carpenter.”

          14. Getting There says:

            Hello, Lisk.

            That’s great that you can find peace in silence! I hear often how much more you can connect internally when you remove distractions like music and TV and just let the silence surround you. I have family and friends who feel they connect more with God in the silence. I also enjoy instrumental, mostly classical, music as well as songs in languages I don’t understand.

            My ex also wanted us to share the time talking instead of listening to music or watching a lot of TV. He made comments in the Golden Period and then later when I think he wanted attention. Looking back I had more aggression on the road during those times. It sounds like you are back to a place where you are comfortable, and that’s great!

          15. MommyPino says:

            Thank you for correcting me HG. Honestly I still don’t have a full grasp on what a word salad really is. I just think that when something is incoherent it must be word salad.

          16. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There,

            Don’t Cry Out Loud is a beautiful song. It is very powerful and every time I hear it it feels empowering. I love songs that empower. I think that it’s a great advice indeed especially in dealing with narcissists. It resonates to me this way: Don’t cry out loud. Don’t let them see that they got you or that they affected you. Keep it inside until they cannot see you then you can finally let it out but never let them know. And then GOSO.

            I can’t think of a love song that replaced Somebody. I think that with my age now and having kids I am not at the same place I was when I absolutely loved that song because my view on love has changed so much. But Bruno Mars’ Just the Way You Are holds a special place in my heart because that’s what my husband chose for me as a song to be played while I was walking down the aisle on our wedding day and I saw him tear up while having the biggest smile watching me walk with that song playing. Recently my husband keeps playing for me Stu Larsen’s song I Will be Happy and Hopefully You Will Be Too and I love it and think it’s really how we are.

            Different songs resonate with me at different times. I remember I was feeling depressed or maybe I had some PTSD from an event that happened with my mom in my last year in college and I was in a retreat in a monastery (I was in a Catholic school) and the lay minister played Cat Stevens’ song Morning Has Broken and I just bawled and I couldn’t stop crying. It was so cathartic. Especially it was towards the end of the retreat after we have had discussions and reflections about life and right before he played that song he asked us to close our eyes and empty our minds and surrender all of our fears and sorrows to God and just empty our minds of those fears and worries as best as we could and in that silence all of a sudden while our eyes were closed we started hearing the song. It was a very spiritual experience.

          17. Getting There says:


            I don’t receive notifications of comments, so I was just looking at this and saw your comment. I’m sorry.

            That Cat Stevens song is amazing! Some spiritual songs really can be cathartic. I’m sorry that you experienced such pain in your life by your mom. Another song of Cat Stevens that I have learned to like is “Cat’s in the Cradle.”

            I don’t think I know those romantic songs. I tend to change the song if Bruno Mars comes up as I haven’t liked his songs that I have heard through. I will have to look up the ones you mentioned later. Thank you.

          18. MommyPino says:

            No worries Getting There, I don’t always receive notifications on mine too. Sometimes I forget to subscribe after I comment.

            I also like that song. I believe it’s a Harry Chapin song. It has a very sad meaning but a good reminder to all parents. Another Cat Stevens song that I like is Father and Son. I absolutely love the part when his voice has a little crack, “ how can I try to explain..” it’s just so perfectly delivered by him. I didn’t have my dad around growing up but whenever I heard that song I try to imagine my dad saying that to me.

            Another song that has always made me feel emotional when I was in my high school / college and sometimes even made me cry is Vincent (Starry Starry Night) by Don McLean. I have always had a fascination with Vincent Van Gogh and his struggle with his mental health. I love his paintings and the innocence that I can see in them.

          19. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There, you were right, Cat Stevens did sing Cat’s in the Cradle and it’s his version of the song that I actually have listened to and not Harry Chapin’s.

          20. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There,

            I’m wrong again, apparently it really was Harry Chapin who sang Cat’s in the Cradle and Cat Stevens didn’t cover the song at all.

          21. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommpino!
            I thought that was Cat Stevens but you are correct! It’s great to learn new things, so thank you!
            I like the Father and Son song as well! I’m sorry your dad wasn’t around when you were young and when you needed him.

            I was listening to Leonard Cohen today. I love his work. I found it interesting how the discussion with “Annie’s Song” led to me analyzing one of my favorite songs of Cohen’s, “Dance Me To The End of Love.” It is such a beautiful song but I did analyze it. Sadly the writing of the song was inspired by the Holocaust, if I remember correctly. The words are amazing, though, and still one I find romantic in a way.

          22. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There, I have never heard of Leonard Cohen before and his song. I listened to it online and it is really interesting. He has a very unique voice. I usually like rock songs and some pop and folk songs too that almost sounds like rock. I also like some Beatles songs but I wouldn’t say that they never produced some crappy songs. Whenever I hear Desperado by Eagles always makes me think of my mom for some reason. I also like the song American Pie but I don’t understand what it means. My husband said that if I grew up her I would understand what that song means. I also like Landslide by Fleetwood Mac just because of her voice. Whenever I’m in a fight against somebody my theme song is Bad by Michael Jackson 😂.

            I also got confused about who sang Cat’s in the Cradle. At first I remembered that it was Harry Chapin because I bought that song from iTunes before for my iPod. But I haven’t listened to my iPod for years and so I looked it up in YouTube and I saw a video that says it was Cat Stevens so I thought that maybe he sang it too but when I listened to it is sounded just like the one that I listened to so I thought that I was wrong. But then I looked it up and apparently the Youtube video is wrong because it is Harry Chapin’s voice. This is one of the instances when we cannot trust the internet lol.

          23. Getting There says:


            I looked up the two songs you had mentioned before. I had heard that Bruno Mars one, sorry! I didn’t recognize the title. The video was fun to watch though. The other one was very romantic! It’s cute that your husband is playing that for you!

            “Desperado” is such a heart breaking song. It’s interesting how much song can connect us to feelings within.
            “American Pie” came out before I was born. It is based on the plane crash that killed multiple rock and roll artists. I don’t understand the words much either even with knowing that. LOL

            Leonard Cohen wrote “Halleluia.” I think that song, whichever lyrics included, is an amazing song that captures so many feelings.

            Can you stay upset with “Bad?” I am bopping my head just thinking of the song.

            I usually like songs others tell me are too sad. I loved “Jar of Hearts” when it came out. It’s taken a different view since finding this site. So much has taken a different view.

          24. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There, I was unfamiliar with Leonard Cohen’s version of Hallelujah. I just knew the Jeff Buckley one and I really like that song too. I listened to Leonard Cohen’s rendition and he has an amazing voice but I’m more used to Jeff Buckley’s.

            I was kidding with the Bad. I don’t have a music playing in my head while I’m upset. I would like to think that I’m that cool but we all know that I’m not lol.

            Yes I agree with you. Jar of Hearts totally look like it was written by someone who went GOSO from a narcissist. It’s a perfect song describing what narcissists do. And it’s a very beautiful song. Another song that took on a different view in my mind after Narcsite is Maggie May by Rod Stewart. It’s an upbeat song but it sounds like Maggie May is a narcissist. Also, since Narcsite, the song ‘I’m Not In Love’ by 10cc always makes me think of HG. I really like that song too.

          25. Getting There says:

            Hi, Mommypino.
            I hope you don’t mind a few off the topic things.

            I saw one of your comments on another thread. I have to admit I am not following the thread so there may be a lot I am missing. I just wanted to let you know that I was such a fan of Dr Carson becoming president. His book was amazing and I do think he is an empath as well!

            Today I thought of “Cat’s in The Cradle.” I took my son to daycare and then I went to work. I wish I could say that I had no choice. That song popped in my head. It really is a good reminder to parents that time with our kids is short.

            Your picture of your dog is so cute!

            LOL on the “Bad” song. I’m sorry I missed that joke.

            I looked up the songs you mentioned and agree that “I’m not in love” sounds like it comes from this blog. I read comments on a video on an Instagram account I follow. It was discussing why men don’t respect and if they ever will. Some of the comments make me wonder if this song is an anthem somewhere.
            “Maggie May” makes me wonder about that line of what we don’t know. I can guarantee that my ex-husband can write about the pain I caused him. I did cause him pain but what will be left out of his story is the full extent of his role. I don’t need or want him to get into that, but I am learning more that I can never fully trust what I am told on what was done by either.

            Jeff Buckley had a great version as does KD Lang and Tori Kelly.

            If I had heard the “Hamilton” music before finding HG, I would have felt sad for all that he went through and how it seemed he tried hard. Now I hear it and think whether he is narcissistic or a narcissist.

            I had to shake my head at myself today. I used to love the song “Someone to Watch Over Me” thinking it was romantic. I heard it today, understood the time it came out, but thought that that was not something I wanted for romance. I can watch over me.

          26. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            Cat’s in a Cradle is such a beautiful song. I saw a YouTube video about it and it was from a poem that was written by his wife. He made it into a song after their son was born. I think that loving parents experience guilt and it is a good thing because it shows that we truly want the best for our kids. I believe that it isn’t really the amount of time spent with them but the quality of each time that we spend with them that makes an impact on them. I never saw my dad since I was three and not until I was 26 but home made such an impact on me through his words in his letters. My mom has also made so much impact on me and was almost always on my side until I was 26 and I honestly have always wished that I had more time with just myself or with friends or other people where she wasn’t around and enabled me to have more chance to develop socially by myself. Our kids learn a lot when we are not around but the most important thing is that they always know that when they are back home to us they are always safe and loved unconditionally more than any place in the world. But I totally agree that our time with them is short. This is our chance to spend as much time and create as much memories with them. When they turn 18 it will be their equal prerogative to spend time with us. Right now they can’t run from us lol.

            I agree with Ben Carson. I’m happy to know that we both like him. I have also read his book, I think the title is Gifted Hands. I am so amazed at what he has accomplished given the fact that he came from a very difficult childhood. He also struggled with temper and he was able to overcome that the extreme guilt that he felt (which is why he isn’t a narcissist because he experiences guilt) which caused him to find ways to control his temper, seek God and change the direction of his life by choosing better friends and being more responsible in school. I was very excited when he was leading the polls at one time during the primaries but his standing started to go down when he lost in those states where Ted Cruz cheated him. He was never elected in any office and I wonder if the election process is really hard for Empaths and much more advantageous for Narcissists.

            Don’t worry about missing my joke, most people miss my jokes lol. I’m used to explaining them. 😜

            I have always thought that Someone to Watch Over Me is such a beautiful song but I have never paid attention to the lyrics. Now reading it, I agree with you. It’s actually a very sad situation for anyone to be in. To long for someone who may not even be thinking about us. Just like that song Brandy. I will only put my heart out for the people who choose to be present in my life and I will try my best to be present and show up as much as I can in their lives too.

            That is a really good point about Maggie May and how a lot of times in the narcissist’s point of view, they are the victim and sometimes we just hear their version of the story.

            I don’t know if I will be able to visit here on Christmas but I just want to greet you a Merry Christmas now to be sure. I hope that your Christmas with your son is so full of joy and abundant blessings and love. ❤️🎄🎁

          27. Getting There says:

            Hi, Mommypino!

            I really want to respond to your comment but I didn’t want to miss a chance to say Merry Christmas to you. Merry Christmas!!! Thank you for the Christmas wishes! I hope you and your family have a beautiful time together with love and joy as well!! I am blessed that we still communicate here!

            I will respond soon to the rest.
            I’m sorry. I think the NORAD Santa Tracker is going to be the predominant site for this phone today.

          28. MommyPino says:

            Thank you for the greetings and I haven’t checked out the Santa tracker but that sounds like a great idea to do with my kids too! No worries about the response, I totally understand. I want to respond to a lot of your thoughts too including Kim Kardashian as I have had the same thought about her for a while but I just got too busy with the holidays. Have the merriest Christmas!!!😘❤️❤️❤️

          29. Getting There says:

            Merry Christmas, Mommypino!!

            The tracker was a lot of fun with constant monitoring and games. When my son saw him in a country friends we have originally came from, he had me text them. We did actually call the line for fun. I don’t have a Twitter account but we were able to watch the videos they made on their Twitter. It was great that they were teaching a fact or posting a picture of different places around the world.

            Ben Carson didn’t always say things of which I agree but it is obvious he is caring and wouldn’t base his decisions on the desire to be liked or for the next vote. I wonder if he would have been able to have the parties work harder together instead of what they do now. He became the Secretary of HUD under Trump and mainly stays out of the news. There was a report that a lot of money was spent on furniture and redecorating. It is said that once he found out about it, he stopped it. I don’t see a lot of our politicians doing that. He was investigated and considered to have not done wrong. I know the group that did the investigation and they have no political preferences. I think he would have brought such good and care to the country and how he was with our allies. He had to make hard decisions as a surgeon and then in the administrative role he was in, so I had no doubt he would have been able to handle being Commander of the military. His ability to hold his anger and knows that he doesn’t know everything but is willing to learn and try are positive traits and needed for this country. I hope we get more candidates with his positive traits and then they are actually elected as president.

            I am watching my son right now and can’t believe how fast time is flying. I like how you described the balance using your parents and how they were with you. You are correct it is in the quality versus quantity. I do have an issue staying off the phone when with him. I have different excuses and none of them are good when looking back at them. I think that will be my New Year’s Resolution. I thought it would have had something to do with narcissists but I think this one is more important. Are you ready for a great 2020? This may be your narcissist free year. How does that feel? Are you excited? At peace?

            My ex- husband wouldn’t be wrong in his hurt. I did do things to hurt him. If he wrote a song from that point, I am sure it would be a song many would think “I wouldn’t want someone like her.” That was his perception and his perception is his truth, whether he knows of his narcissism or not. My perception is different. I wonder sometimes how different people see different manipulations. For example if two people on this site was romantically involved with the same narcissist, would they perceive the behaviors the same or so different that maybe there would be a view of different types of narcissism. The narcissist may learn that I am not feeding the victim mentally, so manipulations aren’t that. The next woman in his life may be great with the victim mentally, so then she recognizes the victim behavior when she comes to this site.

            The song “Bad Liar” by Imagine Dragons is a great song. The lyrics give me the impression that he isn’t a narcissist because he won’t lie to her to keep her and that he knows he can’t give her what she wants. I then wonder what it is she wants. Is it like a narcissist and wants what no one can provide or a normal person wants. What’s interesting is that I think he suffers from anxiety or some thing. I wonder how many writers have a different situation than narcissism or empathy and writes from that, but it is taken another way.

            I hope you have a great time today! We are having friends over so it should be more fun!

          30. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Getting There!! We had a great Christmas. It was laid back. We were just playing with the gifts that we got all day. We got the kids some magnetic tiles so we have been building stuff with them all day. I got my husband a vinyl player so he is finally able to play his old vinyl records. I found out today that he owns the Magical Mystery Tour album that includes I Am the Walrus song. He is a big Beatles fan. I like a lot of their songs but he likes all of them!

            The Santa tracker is absolutely cool. I really like how they give facts about the different places that Santa has been passing through. It’s a really cool way to introduce kids to the different countries and landmarks around the world.

            I agree with what you think about Ben Carson. He is a genuinely good person. His control of temper is both an advantage and a disadvantage for him in politics. Some people who doesn’t like him or agree with him can spin that as a weakness even though it’s actually strength and decency.

            That sounds like a great resolution. Mine is spending more time connecting with relatives and friends. I have been obsessed or addicted over the illusion of competition between me and the familial or platonic narcissists around me who have been one upping me and for a very long time I have actually spent more time on them than with the really good people who hasn’t brought negativity to me. It was either I have been spending time proving to them that I matter, I’m good, I’m not what they say I am, etc. I want to focus on myself now, my family and the good people around me. I’m also getting better and better at knowing what kind of people are incompatible with me versus the types of people that I am able to stay friends with for years. And also what types of personalities seem to hate me so I don’t even take those people personally anymore (zero impact!). It’s amazing how more and more logical my approach is now becoming. So now that I can tell who the good people are, I want to show up for them more and be there for them more. I am very optimistic about it for the new year and I am so excited. I don’t have to wonder anymore so I can focus on more productive things in my life.

            Narcissists can bring the worst in us and with their black and white thinking, it’s usually the part about us that they remember and tell everyone. I love your outlook about his perception and truth. I learned that from HG too and I think that they can perceive all they want whatever they want to perceive but it wouldn’t stop me from having a wonderful life.

            I have to say that your situation is very challenging as your son is still young and therefore your ex husband is still in the picture. My husband went through that and it has made him tougher. The manipulations that they do which affects the child is very upsetting. I am amazed that you remain an amazingly positive person. ❤️

            I will write the second part of my reply tomorrow. I just want to get this one sent now. 💕

          31. MommyPino says:

            “ I wonder sometimes how different people see different manipulations. For example if two people on this site was romantically involved with the same narcissist, would they perceive the behaviors the same or so different that maybe there would be a view of different types of narcissism. The narcissist may learn that I am not feeding the victim mentally, so manipulations aren’t that. The next woman in his life may be great with the victim mentally, so then she recognizes the victim behavior when she comes to this site.”

            That is a very interesting question Getting There. I am thinking about my mom as she is the narcissist that I know the most which is why I always use her to analyze narcissists. I don’t think that she had the ability to shift what kind of narcissist she was to match the type of empath she was ensnaring. I think that she was stuck with who she was and how her narcissism manifested that she was able to ensnare certain types of empaths but not different types of empaths. But of course she was a Lesser too. I thought that she was a Lower Lesser but after reading HG’s Understanding Wounding I now believe that she was a Middle Lesser. She was also an Overwhelming Angel which HG said Lower Lessers are not Overwhelming Angels. She was a Victim narcissist and she used martyrdom a lot. She was able to attract my dad who had a lot of savior mentality (he was president of an organization that saved historical landmarks and here in our county and also the environment). He encouraged her to develop and educate herself but she was only interested in him sending her money for the rest of her life. She used sex to attract him which happened to work on him because he was married to a MR Cerebral who stopped having sex with him for almost twenty years before he met my mom. But it was his ego of being able to save her and improve her as a person that got him really hooked because he felt needed by her. I don’t think that she would have been able to attract a Magnet Empath. As a Geyser, I could be attracted to a Victim but I will probably grow tired of them really quickly. The only thing that my mom was able to change while she was seducing my dad was the way she dressed. She was beautiful and stylish when she was seducing him. He was a director of operations of an international shipping company so she needed to mirror the way that people he interact with dressed up. If you see their pictures together you would not have been able to guess that she is a Lesser. But she was still a Victim because she always told him how she grew up poor and didn’t have this and that and she wish she was smarter but she wasn’t able to afford to go to school because they were so poor etc. She has never done this and that and has never owned this and that and my dad bought her all kinds of stuff and bought gifts to our relatives which fueled her. It was crazy how he was totally manipulated. And she was like that all her life, a Victim narcissist. And she was like that to everyone, to me, to our neighbors and to our relatives. My Elite MR sister was the same, her manipulations were the same to everyone although the ‘reality gap’ seemed to be a unique situation where her Victimhood became very prominent. But for the majority, her intelligence and looks were her prominent features whereas my mom’s were being a victim of her circumstances.

            I agree with you that I also think that artists in general usually are not normal people and it is not only narcissism but they can have anxiety or other factors affecting their art or what they express. I believe Van Gogh May have been a Borderline, especially with what he did to his ear.

          32. Getting There says:

            Oh Mommypino! I’m sorry! I was not implying that we were going to have more fun that what you are doing… just more fun on top of the fun of Christmas morning! I’m sorry!

          33. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            I have been rereading the comments and trying to figure out what is referenced in this comment for your apology. I couldn’t figure it out. But please know that you have nothing to apologize for or worry about as I have honestly not noticed anything. I’m very happy that you had a wonder Christmas with your son and friends as you deserve nothing less. ❤️

          34. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino.

            That sounds like a great relaxing Christmas! Those magnetic tiles are fun to play with and build. That’s funny that you discovered he had the record of the song shortly after talking about it here. How romantic to play records together! Christmas was good with us. My son loves his gifts and had fun with friends that evening. We watched “It’s A Wonderful Life” and I thought of you in watching what a great man George Bailey was.

            That sounds like a wonderful new year’s resolution you have! What a great way to look at the healthy and joyful! I’m glad you know you don’t have to show others, who will never care, that you matter. You do matter! You have so much good in you, and some just can’t recognize and don’t deserve the gifts you have. I can’t wait to hear how it goes if you are willing to share.

            I think the lessons the children were being taught were the best part! I want my son to remember there is a whole world of people and different cultures. I can’t wait to travel with him to other countries to see for himself.

            I am usually impressed with anyone who can control their temper. My second narcissist is brilliant at that. I wish I could study that ability and then apply it. LOL
            I started to wonder if people are starting to become convinced that only narcissistic individuals will be good for the presidency, then I remembered about the debate between JFK and Nixon and the reaction of just the looks after the debate. I wonder how Washington would feel if he could see how politics turned out.

            I’m glad you are alive! I’m sorry your dad experienced all of that, though. It sounds like your dad tried to help the world and your mom. I hope he found peace from the different narcissists in his life in the last few years. It sounds like you inherited the caring side from him. I understand what you are saying about your mom and sister in that their manipulations remained consistent while they had the ability to alter their initial impression to attract. It really does seem chameleon like when I think of how your mom was in that she can alter the outside but the internal never changes. What about from another view: Let’s say that one empath can recognize pity play so they can say that someone is a victim narcissist; whereas, someone doesn’t recognize pity plays but what they see is the silent treatments. Would then they both come on and one would describe a possible UL and another would describe a possible MM?

            It has been easier on my son and mutual friends that my ex- husband and I can be around each other. When he goes for the negative fuel, I usually brush it off, make a joke, or roll my eyes in my head. I was annoyed at something my parents did this Christmas that I felt disrespected my divorce and commented as such. Then I realized that I can’t expect them to respect it if I don’t act like a normal divorce. That was very nice of you to say that about me! I try to be positive. I do get upset sometimes, but I try to not let him see it. I like that your husband grew stronger in his experience; it gives me hope.
            My ex-husband likes to be a good guy, so there are times where he seems to be a better person than I. In my opinion, if it benefits my son in a positive way, then he can look like a saint to all.

          35. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino.

            I know I wrote a long comment earlier today, but I wanted to share with you something I decided this evening and am very excited about!

            I was listening to “Ti Amo” by Laura Brannigan and the words led me to think about my second narcissist and how I used to feel. Which then led me to think about a compliment I received from my therapist in regards to him and in regards to OCD traits. Which ultimately led me to the thought about how I am the one causing work to overwhelm me when I have a team who ask me to trust them and give them more. I try to explain that I do trust them but I have the need to do it all myself, which then impacts both work and my time with my son.
            Things with my traits were different when in the beginning, middle, and active end of the relationships with each narcissist as those situations allowed for my mind to concentrate on other stuff.
            Tonight I decided that I am going to actually work on those OCD traits! I bought some books and am looking online for a support group where I can stay anonymous. I will continue working on them professionally but feel these are positive steps forward in other ways!

            I hope you don’t mind that I shared that with you.

          36. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There, thank you for sharing this with me! I’m very excited for you and this would be an amazing thing to start for the New Year! I am very happy as this signals that you have already made so much progress with regards to the narcissistic parenting entanglement you had and is now ready to tackle the other aspects of your life. Your focus is now back to you and your son and the distraction of the narcissist is not at the forefront anymore. I’m very excited and happy for you and I’m very optimistic about what you are planning to do.

            I have been thinking that another resolution that I want to do is focus on my self development and finish the list that I have been wanting to do but haven’t finished. I want to get them done this coming year. I wanted to get started on my career but the jobs are all at least an hour away and just thinking about not being able to see them because of the long commute, an hour becomes two hours during rush hour made me not want to go back to work. I have to think of what I really want and maybe it’s just going to be time to improve my credentials and skills instead while I teach my kids at home. Or maybe I can get a part time job (twice a week). It’s something that I have to explore but I’m so excited and confident about myself now that I can finally focus more. ❤️❤️❤️

          37. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino.

            I just saw your message about my comment. I was clarifying about my last paragraph on the one I posted on Christmas which included having friends over. After I posted it, I realized that it could be construed in a not good way and not in the way I had intended. I worried and wanted to make sure you knew I didn’t mean it in the not good way. I’m glad you didn’t! I’m sorry you spent so much time trying to understand what I was referencing.

            I hope you are having a great weekend!

          38. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There, no worries!! What you wrote was perfect and if I misconstrued it it would be on me. ❤️💕

            I hope that your weekend is also wonderful!! ❤️

          39. Getting There says:

            That’s exciting, Mommypino!! I’m so happy and thrilled for you that you are feeling confident about yourself and that you are ready to explore your options! It’s great that you are on the positive path!
            That commute sounds horrible, and I understand you not wanting to be away from your kids that long for traffic. Is there something you have dreamed of doing? Do you plan on homeschooling? I have multiple friends who are part- time and they love it. They feel it gives them a balance for themselves.

            Thank you for your excitement! Your comment about it meaning that I am ready to move forward and away from the narcissism has given me such hope today! My pastor feels that I have not dealt with what happened in my marriage and the divorce. Maybe he is right that I want to move forward from both the experience with my ex- husband and the man that came after him without fully processing it all. I don’t want to keep living in the past when nothing can be done with the past. I want to learn from it and move forward to be a better me and a better mom.

            I think moving forward sounds wonderful and the best way to start a new decade! Here’s to a more positive and healthy 2020: 🥂🥂

          40. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Getting There! Cheers to our new positive year in 2020!! 🥂

            I’m not sure if I understood what your pastor really meant. He probably means well but maybe it’s a case of being misguided or uninformed about narcissists. You have done what you can do by being here getting the best information that you can possibly get. There is nothing else about your past that you can deal with except to understand how and why narcissists behave the way they do and how and why you get entangled with them. Everything else is beyond your control because no one can control narcissists. Not everybody can understand that though. And I used to be like your pastor. I used to say that no matter what couples should do their best to work out their marriage and not give up on it because they made a vow. I used to say that even if I had an option I still would have preferred to grow up with my mom than be taken by a child protective agency and be adopted by someone else because nobody else can love me like my real mom. Sometimes I cringe at the thought of what I used to believe. HG has a series of articles about misguided pieces of advice that can actually be very hurtful instead of helpful. You are very gracious to your pastor and yet you are also strong that you remained focused on what you know is best for you in spite of hearing his opinion. You are doing the right thing by moving forward and focusing on yourself and your son. There is nothing else that you can do about the past and you have learned everything that you need to learn about the narcissist from here.

            I think that either l a part time job or a local job is the best option for me. If I have a nine to five job in the closest cities like Sacramento or Folsom, I will have to leave the house by 7:30 am. Kids wake up at 6:30. Then I will get home by about 7:00 pm and kids start getting ready for bed at 8:00pm. So for five days a week I will only see them for about three hours which involves getting ready for work (for me) and school for them and getting ready for bed. The thought is not fun for me especially since I’ve been so spoiled being with them so much. If I can get a local job, I can do full time but accounting jobs where I live are so few. The only ones that hire for the positions applicable to my education are the two casinos here and the county office and the competition for them is really high. So I think that possible option for me is a part time job or get my CPA while I’m a stay at home mom. The positive side of getting a job is we will have a more affordable health care and I will have my own money that I can spend guilt free. I might also be able to finally have therapy or professional psychological help which I have never had in my life if the health care will cover it. My husband said that I can do it now if I really need it and he will just pay for it but the thought of how much it will be makes me feel bad so I never do it. Also I have a tendency to recover really fast that one day I am so upset about something like it’s the end of the world and wanting to go on a therapy then the next day I’m not upset about it anymore and I don’t need any help anymore. That’s probably how I was able to survive the many chaos that I grew up in. I have somehow learned to recuperate emotionally really fast. That is one of the traits of a Geyser in HG’s article that I can relate to the most because even though I can be animated, I’m really not histrionic or hysterical. But it would be interesting if I could talk to a therapist about myself and see what things I need to work on about myself. I also need to get experience in my field as I am not getting any younger. Although I try to tell myself that a lot of people have started their careers at a more advanced age and are happy about it. It’s just a matter of what choice I will make and what is more important for me.

            About my kids, they will both go to public school. My son already is a kindergarten. I just like to supplement their learning with fun educational ways and they seem to enjoy it and absorb so much from it. So far I think a part time job really is what will work for me.

          41. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There! I just want to wish you a Happy New Year one last time in 2019! I’m so excited for our plans for 2020 and you have inspired me to do my resolution and have a fresh start. I can’t wait for us to share our progress with each other. Much love to you💞. All the best for us in 2020!! 🥂❤️

          42. Getting There says:

            Thank you, Mommypino!

            We are going to have a great year and new decade!

            I think my pastor is the type that feels that you need to work out internal feelings, and I think he feels I am burying my feelings. You are right that there are many who give advice about marriage not understanding narcissism. I too used to be like that and used to believe the same. It went against an internal belief to choose divorce. I’m at peace with my choice. After my marriage, when people told me about advice they gave to a married person, I would remind them that no one knows what really happens behind closed doors. HG’s articles hit home on the bad advice given.

            You had the right to believe that a mom is supposed to love you fully, support you, and have your back. It’s understandable how you learned to cope and built your own way of moving forward each time. It’s strength for you. I have friends who were each telling me about their matrinarcs. Like you, they didn’t become like their moms and are wonderful and loving moms. I think your strength in moving forward helped you to not allow you to continue what happened with you and what happened with your mom before when her parents didn’t protect her.

            Therapy with a good therapist can be a way to vent freely, a place to have your thoughts and beliefs challenged in a good way, and tools to help in dealing with a situation.

            It’s funny how much I now tie to what I am learning here that has nothing to do with narcissism or empaths. Many say that the best way to overcome the OCD traits is to allow yourself to feel the anxiety or worry that comes if you don’t do what it wants you to do. My first thought cannot be expressed here, but my second thought was wondering if this is similar to asking a narcissist to go without any kind of fuel for a day. I know the outcome would not be an overcome of narcissism but I wonder if the internal feelings are alike. Also I found books on anxiety. While I do not suffer from anxiety disorder, I do experience anxiety and worry from the OCD traits, so I thought these books would have useful information on how to experience the anxiety without giving in. One book I found stated that studies are finding that anxiety can be passed down in the family, not because of a genetic component but because of what is taught verbally and non- verbally due to a traumatic experience. It said that the original experience could have occurred generations ago but the reaction was passed down in how parents talk, avoid, act, etc. It made me wonder about those who have experienced the abuse of a narcissist parent or significant other or sibling and then what is passed on and in what way.

            I can understand the balance of having money for the family and the future with a little extra for other items.
            That’s great that you are providing fun education at home too!! Kindergarten is a fun year. I hope he is enjoying it!

            What is the accounting industry like with companies hiring people to work at home? I have seen different industries do more of this but was not sure about accounting.

          43. mommypino says:

            Hi Getting There, I missed this one. I didn’t get a notification.

            “ One book I found stated that studies are finding that anxiety can be passed down in the family, not because of a genetic component but because of what is taught verbally and non- verbally due to a traumatic experience. It said that the original experience could have occurred generations ago but the reaction was passed down in how parents talk, avoid, act, etc. It made me wonder about those who have experienced the abuse of a narcissist parent or significant other or sibling and then what is passed on and in what way.”

            I have been reflecting on that about my family history too. My grandmother who was too timid to protect my mom was also removed of her power when she was young although she didn’t become a narcissist. My grandmother was 14 when her parents decided to have her marry my grandfather who was a 36 year old widower who didn’t have kids. My grandmother told me that her parents did that because my grandfather was a good man (he really was) and she was the ugliest out of all the daughters so they didn’t think that any guy would really fall in love with her. I can just imagine what that has taught her. If she couldn’t fight for herself, how will she learn to fight for her kids? My husband and I have been catching each other with some of our toxic parenting behaviors that we grew up in and were natural to us. I have been guilty of triangulation by telling my son for example to look at how his friend is eating meat that’s why he’s not skinny. I immediately felt guilt after I said that and seeing his face was really painful for me so I never did that again. Some things my husband caught me do and explained to me how it is not helpful to the kid. I do the same thing with him. My problem is that I can be manipulative which is I have gotten more aware of and have been trying to avoid. My husband’s problem is that he is too authoritative like if our son wouldn’t eat the food my husband would force the food into our son’s mouth which I have objected to right away and it made him get mad at me although he calmed down within hours. I did get my way to not force feed but he brings it up whenever our kid wouldn’t eat something which I just ignore. We are far from perfect parents but we both love our kids and really want the best for them and are both willing to improve for them.

            “ Many say that the best way to overcome the OCD traits is to allow yourself to feel the anxiety or worry that comes if you don’t do what it wants you to do. My first thought cannot be expressed here, but my second thought was wondering if this is similar to asking a narcissist to go without any kind of fuel for a day. ”

            I totally agree with your thoughts, and I’m sure even the first one. Whenever I see comments here telling HG to change or to have empathy or things that are obviously counter to what being a narcissist is, I just shake my head. Sometimes ideas come to people who don’t have a lot of real knowledge and then all of a sudden they think that their little idea holds the key to everything that everybody else hasn’t figured out. I’m glad that you are doing it the way that feels the best for you. I think that coping is unique for everybody. I think that it’s good that you picked out those books that you know will help you with your OCD.

            I would love to work at home eventually. But I will need to have experience before I can get jobs like that. But that is actually an advantage with accounting. There are companies where I only have to show up periodically as long as I get the job done at home. Right now I have decided to take the CPA exam this year instead of working. I can still teach the kids in the afternoon and study in the mornings while my daughter is in daycare. After I pass three sections I will get a part time job and think of moving my daughter to a private preschool part time also and home school her part time.

          44. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino! It is almost midnight where I live and 2020 is almost here! I hope you and your family are having a wonderful evening and will have a beautiful New Year’s Day! Thank you for your sweet wishes!
            I went to a wonderful concert tonight. During it, I realized that 10 years ago tonight, I was married and didn’t know if I would have a child. Here I am a very fast decade later with an amazing son and an ex- husband. LOL What does this decade have in store? I saw your message and you are correct this new year is our fresh start! I am so excited about our resolutions and us sharing also!!

            In the days since I started reading for my resolution, I have realized a few things about me that need to be healed. I think you and I both have the strength for healing this year! And you with your year of confidence and strengthening friendships with those who only bring out good and not headache or heartache is just great! I can’t wait to hear about the job opportunities and all of 2020!

            Happy New Year, my friend!!

          45. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Getting There. What a beautiful thought you had during the concert about your son. They are indeed a precious gift and I’m very happy for you that you have him. And he is very blessed to have you too!
            I love the song Some Nights by Fun. It has a part in it that says:

            My heart is breaking for my sister and the con that she called love
            But when I look into my nephew’s eyes
            Man you wouldn’t believe, the most amazing things that can come from
            Some terrible lies !
            Some terrible lies !

            Last Christmas when my husband was playing his vinyl records at the turntable that I got for him he was telling me stories about where he was in his life when he got those records and where he was playing them and it felt like I was watching a movie of his life. It is amazing how music is like a bookmark in our lives. Our conversation got directed towards his mom and how she was unhappy from her marriage and how she had so much potential but in her loving sister’s opinion she had a wasted life because of her marriage. But my husband said that she didn’t have a wasted life because she had them and she was very loved. He said that when she died and he was cleaning her stuff he saw her hidden love letters from a guy she had an affair with. He said that it was weird that he actually felt happy for her that this guy made her happy. He never told his siblings about it though and threw away all of the evidence to protect her legacy to his siblings. But he was glad that he found those letters and learned that her life wasn’t as miserable as he thought it was and he was glad that it wasn’t his other siblings who found them. I think that more than we realize what our kids want the most for us is for us to be happy and I’m so happy and glad that you followed that path that will lead you to a happy life.

            Happy 2020 and I agree with you that we both have the strength now to heal this year. Thank you for your friendship and you are so encouraging to me and just a complete positive influence to me. ❤️❤️❤️❤️

          46. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            You are so sweet! Thank you! You have been the same for me! You are a great friend! I asked HG to let me follow him on Instagram for a moment, just long enough to find you and request to follow you. I don’t think I should have shared my plan with him. LOL Then again, I haven’t tried to request to follow him yet, so maybe it would work.

            That was loving of your husband to destroy those! I know what society thinks of affairs but to know that she found a love and a piece of happiness is beautiful! I agree with you about kids. I was advised to stay with my ex for my son. What I wanted to say to that person is that I will never want my son’s shoulders weighed down because he believes that he carried the weight of unhappy parents because they chose to stay together. Kids want a loving home. I saw a video about a study on children based on how parents are to each other. It found that the child lives in high levels of stress and low self esteem when parents are fighting a lot; more so than divorced parents who don’t put their children in the middle of the continued drama.

            I have to tell you how wonderful you have helped me so far. Although today I am not feeling well, I am mentally and emotionally on a high! You inspired me to take a few days off this holiday to be with my son and I didn’t look at work once, and even told those who contacted me that I would talk to them when I return. That is big for me. I am stressing about the repercussions but thankful that I chose quality time with my son. I signed up for a diet even though the first day was not successful. They can’t expect new year’s day to count, right? LOL
            I have been so inspired by you choosing healthy relationships in your life that I sent a goodbye text to someone and this time I haven’t worried if I caused hurt. I saw your comments on another thread. How you are handling it shows how much you are working to put your resolution into practice.
            This blog is HG’s legacy. Within his legacy, you are inspiring and supportive and compassionate and intelligent! You can see that others see that by the comments of support and defense of you; you can see it in the likes on your comments; and more importantly you can just see it in you because it’s true: “To thine own self be true.”
            I hope one day you can see certain comments or references to certain threads and be able to laugh or shake your head and then move on to the next one without the desire to respond in any capacity.

          47. MommyPino says:

            Thank you so much Getting There. You are so sweet as well.

            You are absolutely right that it is far better for a child to grow up where there is less stress. I have read from Brain Rules for Babies and Whole Brain Child that a safe environment helps with the formation of a well integrated brain and it also increases the IQ. Having kids grow up in a home where they’re constantly in a fight or flight mode is bad for them in many ways. In the same way, not giving them consistent rules and spoiling them also make kids feel unsafe because they start to feel that they have to figure out for themselves what is appropriate or not because their parents just let them do everything. That is consistent with HG’s explanation on how being a Golden Child is also being subjected to abuse and can also create a narcissist.

            I am so happy that I have been a positive influence to you as well as you have been to me. I have come a long way ever since I found Narcsite. I still have a long ways to go. Right now I am struggling with the approach of how to be able to maintain boundaries and still remain kind, where to draw the line where I am not a pushover that people can trample on nor a mean person. And that will be part of my consultation with HG. I have been thinking at my husband’s drama free life and I think that it is mainly because he chooses the people he gets involved with, not in a judgmental way necessarily but he just knows which kinds of people works out with the kind of person he is. When I was new here at Narcsite, my readings gave me the green light to let go of a group of friends where two are narcissists and the rest are normals and one empath. The Empath is still my friend but I am not part of the group anymore. I sent them a goodbye text as well and my Normal husband said that you’re too nice to send them a goodbye text and explain why. I just stop talking to people like that until they get it. So with the most recent, I did my husband’s approach of just disengaging without explaining and now I am wondering if that was a bad idea. I will talk to HG about it. But I think my biggest problem is reacting. Your last sentence is absolutely spot on. Another difference between me and my husband is he will not react unless it was in his face. If he reacts, his reactions are very swift. So basically I still have a long way to go but I have also come a long way ever since I have read HG’s work. Thank you so much for the kind words to me. You are such an amazingly kind friend as well and you are one of the kindest people here in the blog. ❤️

          48. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There, I forgot to say this about your worries about repercussions at work. I don’t know if this will help at all and you probably have heard of this already. But I have read somewhere where she found out that if you give it time, problems tend to fix their own. For example she said that she decided not to respond right away with the emails from her coworkers asking for help. She decided to wait for a little bit. I can’t remember how long. But she said when she got back to them, a big majority of the problems that they needed her help with already got fixed like they figured it out without her help. So she said that doing that reduced her stress and workload. I don’t know if it will help in your case but it’s just an idea that I remembered.

          49. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There, I just want you to know that I wrote replies for you but I’m not sure if they are still in moderation or if it didn’t go through. I just want to let you know that I didn’t ignore your message. If it doesn’t show up by tomorrow I will just try again. ❤️

          50. HG Tudor says:

            There are many comments in moderation owing to my recent absence over the holiday period. Patience is required.

          51. mommypino says:

            Hi Getting There, I hope that your week is going great. There is just one thing that I want to add regarding my resolution for 2020. I want to be more intuitive and follow where I am being led. I don’t know if you are spiritual or not but I think that there is a high chance that you are so you will probably understand what I am trying to say. I feel that throughout my life there have been moments when I had these intuitive feeling which I trusted and followed and it has led me to do things that I am thankful for. This involves all aspects of my life including friendships and self advancement. I trust my gut and I pray about it and it almost feels like I was being guided. It happened when I joined and won some competitions in school, when I befriended my two best friends from 2nd yr in h.s. which now I know are empaths and are still my friends, when I processed my US citizenship and yes, even when I found Narcsite. Every time I do that is when I did somet?hing that was highly fulfilling and self defining and life changing. And I noticed that every time I am distracted and not listening to my intuitions I missed out in opportunities and get railroaded. I wonder if it is an empath thing Getting There. Do you sometimes feel that way too?

          52. Getting There says:

            Hi, Mommypino.

            Thank you for letting me know. That is sweet!

            I also worry that I exit out before it is “posted” and lost. I then forget some of the articles I comment on, like one today where I commented to Whitney. I wish there was a tracker for quick reference. LOL

            I saw that you are driving to spend time with a previous teacher and friend. That sounds like fun!

          53. MommyPino says:

            Hi HG, I understand, I was just worried a little bit but I totally understand that you are an army of one.

            Hi Getting There, I worry about that too. I used to be able to see my comments that are pending for moderation but WordPress May have changed that now or maybe my phone browser is not compatible with it like my phone browser is not letting me Like comments but I can Like comments if I use my laptop. My internet here can also be unreliable as we live in a rural area.

            Thank you for asking, I had a lot of fun seeing them. I’m glad that I went. I knew my schoolmate by her name and face but I couldn’t remember which school we were schoolmates because I transferred schools almost every year. I had five different schools during my six years in grade school and two schools during my four years in high school. I believe that they have now added more years in grade school in my home country but during my time it was only up to sixth grade and we begin our teenage years in high school. We are usually 16 yrs old when we go to college. The reason I transferred a lot was because my mom but I behaved well in all of the schools that I went to. As we talked, it brought back a lot of fun memories. I did enjoy my childhood in spite of my mom. I loved school very much. I finally remember that I was in the same school bus (it was actually a Filipino jeepney) with that school mate and I remember that when the school jeep arrives at her house I always thought that her house was nice especially during Christmas when it was full of lights. She lives in Phoenix now and is a doctor of family medicine. She’s married now too but she also has personal problems. We all agreed that we all carry a cross in one form or another. I was wrong about my teacher, she lives here in the US with her teenage twins but her husband was not able to come with them. She said that he is scared of moving to a different country but his papers are ready, he just wouldn’t process it. She has been here for four years already. I have to say she looks gloomy and home sick. She always video call her husband but she hasn’t been back to the Philippines ever since she got here. We were able to make her smile when we talked about our school and the other teachers. I asked about my home teacher and she mentioned with a smile that she remembers that I was my home teacher’s favorite always talking about me in the faculty room. It made me happy because I really liked my home teacher too and I do remember her always being sweet to me and noticing a lot of what I did (both good and bad lol). I wish I could see her again too. It’s really fun and almost feels surreal to visit with people from your past. I always do it whenever I can. It is my way of keeping myself grounded as well.

          54. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            Thank you very much for the compliments!

            I’m glad you will be consulting with HG! I have no doubt he will be able to help you with finding that balance. It really is a balance to know that you are worthy of boundaries and standards for yourself and being willing to maintain them. I know you can do it and you are worth it! I will admit that I am bad at it. I read a book called “Boundaries” and that helped for a couple of months. I have no doubt HG will help you with a longer term solution.
            It must be nice to be like your husband in being able to just walk away and feel his actions state what he wants. I am like you in saying goodbye and feeling badly if I don’t. I listen to this guy on Instagram who gives dating advice for alpha females. He told of a story of a woman who went to her boyfriend’s to surprise him with a gift of a game he wanted. She used her key and when she went in, she saw him asleep in bed with his ex. She didn’t say anything, left the game on the counter, and went no contact HG-style. I can’t imagine how different that would have gone down if she were like me instead. It’s interesting how much respect I have for her but have such an inability to do it when it comes to someone who was supposed to be close. The same guy posted a video on New Year’s day that addressed three ways of wasting time. His second point said that people have to earn the privilege to be your acquaintance. The me before would have thought “what the heck! That is mean!” Now I logically understand his point; although, not emotionally. This is exciting that you will be working with HG on this!

            That sounds like a good homecoming! It’s great that you could all meet up even without remembering who beforehand. It sounded like she really needed that time. The romantic in me wished that love could inspire her husband to move here to be with her and their children. The realist in me understands that sometimes there are other psychological points which can be more powerful than love if allowed. I hope that they are able to reunite soon! Being a single mom of two teenagers in a different country, wow! Thank goodness the three of you found each other to find relief from those crosses. That’s an awesome discovery that you were highly respected and liked by the teacher you liked the most! Moving isn’t easy for children, and to move every year like you did must have been very stressful and hard to learn to be willing to settle. Everything you share, though, shows that you found a way not only to survive but to excel no matter what your mom did to you. You are such a strong person! I moved a little as a child. It was before the social media days, so I lost friends in life. I often wonder if that plays a role in my need for closure and saying “goodbye.”

            Thank you so much for sharing about your memory of the school jeep and the Christmas lights! Also thank you for sharing about the school system; I love learning about about other places in the world. 16 years old and college?! That seems young but I am sure the schools prepare you well.

            As more people are having less children, I wonder if there is an increase in Golden Children. With my son being an only child, it is hard not to treat him like what I understand is how a Golden Child is treated.

            Thank you for the tip for work. That’s great that your friend allowed herself to find ways to relieve stress at work! Those little steps make big differences. I need to allow myself to continue to take those steps. People at work try to help me by telling me that if I die that night, the work will still get done by others. That doesn’t relieve stress or make me feel good, but it’s true. LOL

            I can’t wait to hear the little and big victories you will have!

          55. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Getting There for your lovely messages. I didn’t get notified of your reply to me on the other thread but I got notified of your reply to Whitney so from clicking that I saw your reply to me and I haven’t read it yet as my kids have been sick last week and I last weekend but I will be catching up now as I’m already feeling well.

            I agree with you on boundaries. Thank you for your support. For me I have strong boundaries when it comes to romantic relationships but I suck when it comes to family and friends. I can see myself doing the same thing as that woman in your story to a romantic partner especially when it is that blatant but when it comes to family I am guilty of repeatedly trying to fix the relationship or trying a different approach. I would disengage after a threshold of bullshit was reached but I get hoovered again when I am able to give myself a different perspective or an idea of a different approach comes to me. Too much optimism is my problem. I used optimism to cope and survive in an almost barren desert like childhood from my mom and now it’s hard to control that optimism. But a lot of the knowledge from HG has really helped me so much to make it more logical because it’s really simple: they will never change.

            As for having to earn acquaintance, that sounds like my husband but he doesn’t say it explicitly. He would probably think that that statement is even arrogant. But the statement shows in his actions. As for me, I am the same as you. I welcome everyone to be my acquaintance even though I have a few friends that have a special spot but they didn’t earn it. I don’t like the way it makes me feel to think that people has to earn anything from me. For me it’s either I’m compatible or not compatible with someone. My friendship is not a price. It’s not like an audition.

            I was thinking the same thing as your romantic side about my teacher and I talked to my husband about it. I told him I don’t understand why her husband stayed and my husband said that I should try to look at the husband’s perspective why she left without him. It seems like a real gray area. If I was the husband I would follow them in a heartbeat but my husband said that not everybody are the same. For some people moving to a different country is really scary or maybe he’s really attached to his country and life there or he is worried that he doesn’t have the skills required to adapt that he will just be a burden to them. It does seem like a very hard situation for both of them.

            “ I moved a little as a child. It was before the social media days, so I lost friends in life. I often wonder if that plays a role in my need for closure and saying “goodbye.””

            I think it could be part of it but I think it is mostly because you are an empath and you are very kind. There’s this book, Dare to Lead and one of my most memorable lines from the book is, “Clarity is Kindness”. It’s so true and is why I think empaths have a tendency to over-explain things or clarify etc. because we don’t want our actions to cause confusion and hurt for other people. But I think the very key is what HG has said, the normals have a smaller radius. So for my husband, he can avoid a friend without saying goodbye but not his family. He always explains to me everything that he does even when I don’t ask and I never have to wonder. But he doesn’t think that he owes a friend an explanation I think mainly because he just thinks that they have separate lives. He doesn’t expect an explanation from them either. He doesn’t expect much from other people. So personally I think that you are just that way mostly because you are an empath.

            “ As more people are having less children, I wonder if there is an increase in Golden Children. With my son being an only child, it is hard not to treat him like what I understand is how a Golden Child is treated.”

            I’m 💯 sure that your son is not being treated like a Golden Child because you are very empathic. It is different to absolutely love and cherish your child than when a narcissist parent treats one as a Golden Child. Narcissists are not capable of loving their kids so even a Golden Child doesn’t feel ‘unconditional love’ from them. It is a manipulation actually. Narcissists use the Golden Child to serve their purposes. For example John Lennon used his Golden Child from Yoko Ono to triangulate his older son by showing his older son that he loves the younger son much more than him. Lennon was not an aware narcissist so he didn’t know what he was doing. But he was almost rationalizing his meanness to his older son by showing that his younger son is innately superior than his older son. But he never loved his Golden Child. A Golden Child also feels this pressure to please the narc parent whether it’s in performing well at something or obeying them without any questions. So it also sucks to be a narcissist’s Golden Child even though they seem to get a lot of privileges from their narc parents. Your son is so amazingly lucky because you love him unconditionally. ❤️

          56. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            I hope everyone is feeling much better and healthy now! Winter isn’t fun with all of the illnesses going around.

            That’s great that you can be strong in your boundaries with relationships! It’s also a positive attribute for the ability to do the same with your friendships and family as you continue on! If I had been that woman, I would have been angry and yelled. Then I would have tried to talk until there until there was some kind of resolution. LOL Thinking logically, I would like to think “oh heck no” but the truth is that I am realizing that I have allowed for those in my relationship life to cross boundaries and then help them rationalize and excuse their behaviors. Family and friends are slightly different. I will allow them to cross boundaries only for so long before I say “enough.” This past weekend I had a “friend” who has crossed boundaries and others see more than I do, and she did one too many things. It wasn’t the worst of what she has done, but it was the final straw. Unlike other times, I didn’t explain my thoughts and feelings to her. I am struggling with this lack of closure, but sometimes it is better to walk away than to question whether the excuse was worth the possible stay. I was talking with another friend who is going through an end of a relationship and that guy is a narcissist. She wants closure, and I found myself lost on what to say. I know that feeling and it seemed wrong to downplay, but I knew it wouldn’t help. In the end, I tried to explain what she shouldn’t expect from the narcissist with the closure. Then she can decide for herself if it is worth it.

            It’s fun to read the differences between you and your husband. The discussions between you two must be very fun to explore the differences such as friendships and your view of you in them. Have you ever thought of a degree in psychology?

            You are very sweet in your confidence in my parenting! Thank you! He is such an interesting mix of both my ex- husband and myself with a lot of his own qualities. I have to have faith that all will be great for him. I think he could become a normal. Stories of him keep my friends laughing. Are your children more like you or your husband or a mix?

          57. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There,

            Thank you. We are all finally feeling well. It was my birthday so we watched Monster Jam today. Saw a bunch of monster trucks do crazy stunts and we even saw one do a back flip. It was incredible and best of all our kids loved it. It was so fun seeing their eyes get so big. Seeing them get excited was the best birthday present for me. I will write more tomorrow as it is already time for bed. We got home really late. ❤️

          58. MommyPino says:

            Thank you so much for the birthday wishes Getting There. I am very excited for this new year for me.

            With reacting and keeping boundaries, if I will be more thoughtful and honest, I am not really sure if I will indeed react like that woman. I think it really depends on the circumstances. I guess if it was just a boyfriend, it would be much easier for me. I wouldn’t even try to talk anymore since I already saw it with my two eyeballs so there’s really nothing else to be explained. If it is my husband and we have a kid together, I would say that it will be extremely difficult. I might throw the gift at them and yell out an expletive before I storm out. If it was our house I might end up dragging the woman out of our house. As of now it is hard to tell because it has never happened to me. But I think that it is much harder to disengage if it’s a husband. I try to imagine if I saw my husband have another woman, it will be so hard to leave just like that because if we have a kid I will think about how that will change the life of the kid. However if the husband is an abuser and didn’t just cheat but has been habitually abusive in different ways then I will decide to leave for sure just like what you did. I think that it is incredibly brave for a wife to leave an unhappy marriage. It is a very hard decision to do.

            I will write more tomorrow.

          59. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There,

            Like you I struggled with closure as well. But that was before I learned about and understood people existing with no empathy and conscience. Honestly I didn’t fully understand this until I found Narcsite. I used to think that nobody is truly selfish or bad deep down. I grew up seeing my mom behave really badly towards others and at the same time help other people. I didn’t know that she helped them for fuel. I thought that deep down she wanted to help other people and cared about people but her lack of social skills caused her to have all of those conflicts with others. Watching her reinforced to me that someone so hateful and horrible also have a lot of good in them. And the circular conversations and lack of closure from her interactions with me and others also reinforced to me that conflicts will be resolved or prevented if only we try to understand each other or explain ourselves to each other. Now that I finally understand that many people walk amongst us who really do not care, do not feel guilt like we do and do not aim for resolutions if it doesn’t serve them, that is the closure that I will ever need as soon as I have seen enough red flags. I have just come to an acceptance that we are all different and that is now my closure.

            I have always been interested in human behavior since childhood as my mom’s behaviors have always been interesting and also how other behaved towards her. She had a tendency to cause extreme behaviors from people who were mostly plain or normal. I have seen people who would be considered as successful or respectable be reduced to tears by her or behave like a crazy person out of anger from my mom’s provocations. So growing up seeing all of these extremes made me fascinated looking at expressions or reactions of people. But when I took some units of business psychology I didn’t find it to be something that I want to pursue further. The pictures in the abnormal psychology part of the book scared me and also some of the groundbreaking experiments on animals and people seem inhumane to me. I didn’t agree with a lot of the theories either.

            It sounds like you have an adorable boy. I’m very happy that he is a normal. I’m amazed at the resilience in people who experienced conflict in their family and are still able to become normals. My half brother and my husband are like that. They have a lot of empathy but they have strong boundaries. Although my husband still fell in love with his first wife who is a Victim LMR so he wasn’t perfectly safe from getting ensnared. He lost a lot of his savings and had to start from scratch again after their divorce. My brother on the other hand found a really wonderful woman and up to now they are still perfect for each other. My half sister said that she was there when he met his wife and within a short period he already knew that she is the one for him. They have very similar interests and they are both drama free. He is a boring engineer/professor and she’s a dorky scientist so their personalities are very close and similar. They are both amazing and wonderful people. I was also thinking of Prince William versus Prince Harry. So Prince William and Kate Middleton are both considered Normals and also Queen Elizabeth while Prince Harry is an Empath. Looking at all of them I would much rather be a Normal than an Empath like P. Harry who is being used for a narcissist’s personal interests. I saw Prince Harry’s announcement, “ it brings me great sadness that it has come to this. The decision that I have made for my wife and I to step back, is not one I made lightly. It was so many months of talks after so many years of challenges,… And I know I haven’t always gotten it right, but as far as this goes, there really was no other option”. It just shows to me how empath’s are so much easier to be manipulated than Normals. I remember before I even found out anything bad about MM,my husband already told me that he doesn’t like her and he thinks that she is not a good person just with the way her eyes and her whole face looks like. And I also remember Prince William not liking her from the very beginning before the engagement. I wonder if Normals have less emotional thinking (and less positivity?) that they are able to recognize narcissists or toxic people much earlier than empaths do.

            About my kids I think that they are also a mix of both of us. My son’s appearance is closer to mine while my daughter’s is closer to my husband’s. Since my son was a baby I thought that his smile reminded me of my dad but my half sister disagreed and said he looks nothing like our dad. Although last Christmas when my brother and sister in law had their annual Christmas visit with me my sister in law said with a big smile that my son got my dad’s smile. So I’m glad that I wasn’t just imagining things lol. My kids have different personalities but they are both empaths although my daughter is probably closer to a Normal than an Empath. She’s extremely assertive and can be selfish but the only thing that makes me think she’s an empath is her being so proactive with her empathy towards us or our dog and she is much more expressive with her empathy than my son but that’s probably because she’s a girl. 😊. I have always wondered how old is your son? I think he is also close to my kids’ age but maybe slightly older?

          60. mommypino says:

            Hi Getting There, I just want to clarify that the boring engineer and dorky scientist comment was not to pick on them in a mean way but it was kind of an inside joke. They refer to themselves as such in a funny way so I say it about them in a loving way. He also says he is an unemotional engineer and she’s a tree hugger. Part of her old job was to measure trees with a tape measure so she literally hugged the trees as she was measuring them. 😊

          61. Getting There says:

            Happy birthday, Mommypino!!!!

            That’s great that all had fun! I agree that watching the joy and excitement from their eyes makes anything so much better!

            I hope and pray that this is am amazingly happy year with peace for you!

          62. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            Your distinctions on the scenario made me think. I like how you are able to recognize the difference of a boyfriend versus husband. I struggle on that distinction but it is very healthy one to have! The part you wrote about throwing the game and yelling something before leaving made me laugh. That woman changed her number, moved, told her family and all not to talk about her if he contacts them. She went all out in her no contact. I do wonder if there was other not good stuff to the relationship and this was her final straw.

            I was going through some Martin Luther King, Jr quotes to use elsewhere and found this one which made me think of you:
            “I came to the conclusion that there is an existential moment in your life when you must decide to speak for yourself; nobody else can speak for you.” – Martin Luther King Jr.

            I heard that he had had an affair, but his wife stayed with him. I believe he’s an example of an empath who made a mistake. I think that would be a hard situation to have no other examples of the person being worth leaving except for that moment. It would have to be a question if trust could ever be rebuilt to build a different relationship with the two that will be strong and loving. I have a friend where that happened. They both worked very hard on the relationship and now are still together with children, and she trusts him now. I have a friend who stayed through different types of abuse but left when the spouse cheated. The lines we allow for ourselves in different situations is interesting to consider.

            I saw a news article last night about a case in Canada where the husband shot and killed his wife. He is supposedly schizophrenic, and either was taking his medicine or not. His wife was worried for her and their 10 year old son and left the husband. She came back alone for some reason and that is when he killed her. He was found innocent by reason of insanity and gets to obtain her life insurance instead of it going to her mom for her son. That is such a hard case to consider but when looking at the news, it seems an epidemic of murder of spouses. I have been following the one in Connecticut. It appears to me that not only is the husband a narcissist but the new girlfriend is as well. It is a scary time for a person in an abusive relationship to think about leaving. They have the strength and hopefully they find it inside and find the support outside to safely get away.

          63. MommyPino says:

            Hi Getting There, I’m still unsure about MLK. I have read in the book Killing Kennedy that MLK was a sex addict and I believe HG when he says that there is no such thing as sex addiction; it is fuel addiction. What HG says makes so much sense. I think that sex is absolutely enjoyable for most people but most people are content to do a lot of sex with the same partner. When someone has to have several sex partners and they claim sex addiction, it isn’t sex that they are really addicted to but the fuel that they get from various appliances.

            That is so sad about spouses getting killed by the person that they have entrusted their lives with. My husband and I used to watch the show Dangerous Women and there were stories of wives killing their husbands as well. I used to wonder why did they have to kill their husbands? Why didn’t they just leave? What would make a person go down to that trajectory where they will be able to do something like that? Now I totally understand that these people are just different from a very early age and the trajectory has happened a very long time ago during their childhood. Their spouses basically married a ticking time bomb. I think that they are the lower functioning narcs and psychopaths.

            I think that empaths and normals can cheat and it can be forgiven. It will hurt me so badly if my husband will ever cheat and maybe our relationship will never be the same again. But I can see myself forgiving him and I can see us being happy again. I think that he would forgive me too if I will ever cheat which I don’t plan on ever doing to him. I think that it is different if like you said the cheating is the last straw of other series of bad behaviors.

          64. Violetta says:


            A very merry unbirthday to you
            Who me?
            Yes, you!
            Oh, me!
            Let’s all congratulate us with another cup of tea
            A very merry unbirthday to you!

          65. MommyPino says:

            Haha thank you Violetta and yes happy unbirthday to you too!! I hope your day was nice. 😁 🍵

          66. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            Your umbrella picture is very cute!

            How great that you can see your dad’s smile! Your sister is a piece of work. She’s just jealous and wanted to take that good away from you. Your kids sound adorable and a lot of fun! Please don’t worry about your engineer/ tree hugger comment. I thought it was funny! I know and am related to engineers and scientists, and I joke with them all of the time about their personality traits. It’s fun how they joke about it as well and seem to not take offense. The literal tree hugging job sounds interesting! That’s good that they have found each other and are happy! I struggle with Prince William since the rumor of his affair with her friend. Maybe it was a case of an empath or normal having an affair if it were true. I hope they are happy and not showing a facade to the world. It’s very confusing for the children. I find the Megan factor partially fascinating. She isn’t the first narcissist involved with the royal family but she seems to have caused a great stir. I wonder if it is due to the possibility that the public felt protective of William and Harry since they were young. Personally I didn’t trust her before they got married when I heard that she said she didn’t know who he was in being Prince Harry. You don’t have to be British to know William and Harry, you can see tabloid covers while waiting to pay groceries in the US if you live in the US. If she had said that about some of his cousins, then I could understand, but that intentional lie said a lot about her character early. What confuses me is that either Harry is portrayed as the hapless victim or as bad as she is. Isn’t there a middle option? I didn’t blindly follow everything each narcissist wanted me to do. There was wounding and challenging because I stood up for certain aspects regardless of the reaction. I was controlled in many ways but I wasn’t hypnotized. Maybe it is different for Harry where the stakes are higher for him emotionally and mentally.

            I didn’t know much about Martin Luther King except the basics. You inspired me to look him up a little. When he was a child, he snuck out against his parents guidance to see a parade and missed his grandma’s death.
            He was so distraught, he jumped out of a house or building to possibly commit suicide. In one thing I read, when he was young and before married, he was involved in a relationship with a white woman which hurt him significantly. He was very smart, successful at a young age, and very calm and thinking ahead. If he were a narcissist, he would probably be a UMR, and I don’t see a UMR reacting to a grandparent’s death in such a way. I admit I am still learning, though. I think it will be interesting to find out what the actual recordings caught when they are released as there is controversy regarding the memos which have been released.
            I understand what HG means about the term of “sex addiction.” It seems that it will be difficult in the future to differentiate as I hear about more who will prefer multiple sexual partners instead of committing to one person. There is so much to the human psyche in play with this increasing change. I wonder if this continues would it impact any narcissist having to evolve to multiple IPSSes instead of a IPPS; or would the majority of “committed” relationships be a narcissist/empath relationship while normals and majority of empaths evolve in finding connection another way.

            I think it’s a true blessing that you don’t have to worry about that scenario with your husband! I look at loving couples and think that the peace and security must be amazing!

            I really enjoyed reading what you wrote about closure and your change of view of people thanks to what you have learned here. I think you learned a lot first hand watching your mom and the puzzle pieces fit well now thanks to HG and this site! Your mom put you through a lot and had you witness a lot. The internal strength and compassion with you is so strong to overcome that and be who you are today. On one of the sites I follow on Instagram a woman was talking about the cruelty of her mom raising her and it was based on her mom being the only survival in her family of the Holocaust. The compassion, while understanding the reality, she has for her mom reminds me of you with your mom.
            I am wondering if I am starting to care less about internal intentions as much. Empaths and normals are no saints, and we think through our negatives versus the reaction of a defense mechanism of a narcissist. The friend I cut out of my life recently is an empath. She may do good for the best intentions but the negative she caused was not in my best interest to be around. My ability to “put someone in their place” is a source of comedy for some but pain or embarrassment for others. I know this and do it still at times; although, I am working on doing it less because of that reason. On the other hand, my ex- husband saw a person struggling and wanted to help. Did he do it because he looks good and receives fuel, which he didn’t consciously think? Yes, but to that man struggling, it doesn’t matter why, it just matters that there was a hand or kind word when needed.
            Toxic is toxic, and being healthy is staying away from toxic. That must be why your husband is good without closure and you are learning to be!

          67. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            I had to do some research regarding MLK before writing my reply to you. I don’t have a copy of Killing Kennedy but I did some online research regarding what I remember reading from it and some online articles supported what I remember. Robert Kennedy authorized J Edgar Hoover of FBI to wiretap and record MLK’s telephone conversations and there were recordings that indicate he was having wild sex parties and orgies with several women and he was even recorded exclaiming over the phone, “I’m fucking for God.” MLK JR was a minister and he was teaching Christian values and what he was doing was in contrast with what he was teaching which makes me think that he had a facade or a double life. That was the big red flag for me: the double life. I understand that some people prefer swinging or having multiple partners but when they do that in a dishonest way where they claim to be one thing and secretly behaves like another then for me it is a red flag for lacking accountability and dishonesty which are both narcissistic traits. Sex addiction is a huge red flag as well as explained by HG that for narcissists sex is a means to get fuel and so sex addiction really comes from fuel voracity.

            When it comes to his attempted suicides at a young age, I do wonder if it was a way for him to get attention. I don’t know if a 12 year old can already be a full blown narcissist or if at that age the child already has huge issues regarding the need for attention and is in the trajectory to becoming a narcissist. In HG’s article Death he said this:
            “ I know there are those of our kind who revel in the drama and the high emotion that is attached to a funeral and regard it as a honey pot for the acquisition of fuel. There are those of our kind who will hijack the occasion and make it all about them, wailing and shedding those false tears in order to draw well-meant sympathy from the other attendees. There are those of our kind who will create a scene at the funeral, arriving late, arriving drunk, collapsing part way through the service, making a snide remark in a loud stage whisper in order to draw reactions from everyone else that is there. Yes, many of our kind will attend and exhibit their over-acted grief purely to draw attention to themselves and away from the person who is now lying in the cold, hard ground. Our kind will express their huge sense of loss, how the deceased was such a wonderful father, caring mother, beloved uncle or best friend. Such a shameless performance which is carefully choreographed in funereal black to maximise the opportunity to have the spotlight shine on them and thus drink up all the attendant fuel. A disagreement will be provoked with another family member and harsh words exchanged. Over the top blubbing will take place with cries of “Don’t leave me!” as the coffin is lowered. The occasion of death and the attended ceremony provides a wonderful stage to our kind to perform our sick routines to make it all about us, fashioned from the pretence of actually caring. We do not care. ”

            I remember my EMMR sister told me that our dad was so insensitive and uncaring that when their mom died, both her and our oldest sister (an Upper Lesser Type B) were so overcame with grief that they cried and followed the funeral car and our dad yelled at them to go back inside because they are embarrassing to the neighbors. I think I have an idea what happened especially with the times that I have witnessed my half sister’s melodramatic tendency. In both occasions that my dad and my mom dad, I didn’t cry in front of anybody, I couldn’t for some reason. But I cried heavily in private.

            Here’s the link for that article:


            I will write more on a second part about the other stuff we were talking about. ❤️

          68. Getting There says:

            I’m sorry, Violetta, I didn’t know it was your birthday. Happy happy birthday!

          69. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            Thank you for the reference of HG’s article. It’s interesting how people can take the same situation and see it differently. When I read it, I took it that he was close to his grandma and that she may have been a rock for him and he may have felt that he let her down by not being there in her final moments. If she died alone, and he may have promised to have been there, that could have added to his grief. I appreciate that you share another viewpoint! Thank you!

            Grief is a difficult one. Everyone has a different response. When my great aunt died, my relatives and I joked and were sarcastic in between crying while at the funeral. That’s not how I am at all funerals but it was how we handled that one. Were you the one who had to handle the funeral arrangements for both?

            I know many look forward to the release of the recordings.

            Off topic. Have you heard of Jonny Kim? He has achieved amazing success and is becoming known for that. Many think he will run for office one day. My friend just reminded me of him, so I looked him up to see if there was more about him. The more I read about him, the more I think he is an empath. I think he is a great example of how empaths can achieve whatever success they choose.

          70. mommypino says:

            Hello Getting There, You are absolutely correct about grief and I totally understand your viewpoint regarding MLK Jr.’s grief and you may be totally correct and I could be totally wrong. But what made me have that viewpoint was his double life and sex addiction which are very big red flags for narcissism. Also even Jackie Kennedy was recorded for saying that MLK was a terrible man. They say that the reason she said that was because MLK said some sexually crude remark about her during JFK’s funeral. If he really said that then it shows lack of empathy for her who was grieving. By the way, JFK was also a sex addict and I believe him o be a narcissist as well. L.B. Johnson was not a sex addict but accounts of his lack of empathy makes me think that he was a Cerebral MR narcissist. He was very jealous of JFK and JFK enjoyed provoking him and making him feel inadequate and not valued. Killing Kennedy is an interesting book and Bill O’Reilly wrote it and I also believe that he is an Upper MR narcissist.

            I agree with you on grief and unless I believe that that person is a narcissist I would refrain from questioning the sincerity of their grief. My aunt from my mom who is a Geyser Codependent was very dramatic when we told her that my mom died. She threw her glass of water across the room and it broke into pieces and she was wailing and flailing her arms. I caught some of her grandkids hide their expression of a mixture of surprise and laughter from her reaction. I actually felt ashamed that I am the daughter but I haven’t cried. I was at that time thinking if I should try to shed a tear just so nobody would doubt that I am grieving but I decided to just be whatever I really feel like and try to not think of what they might think about me. For my mom I handled most of the funeral arrangements but thankfully I had my relatives helping me. And that probably added to why I couldn’t cry in front of them because my brain was in Carrier mode and trying to get things done. During the funeral a lot of my cousins have been abused by my mom and I decided to make it light for everyone so we shared so many stories about my mom and focused on the humor of all of it. We were laughing a lot thinking about her antics and it also helped us forgive her and look at the positive sides of her character and personality. I also explained to them about narcissism and it helped al lot of them have closure and acceptance and they all left happier and I believe that they have all forgiven her. It also surprised a lot of my cousins when I told them that I remember what my mom did to them because they say I was just four years old then and they didn’t think that I was already paying attention. But I could sense that it made them feel validated.

            With my dad, he requested to not have a funeral. But our relatives organized a celebration of life which I didn’t attend because my half sister (EMMR) was making things awkward for me so I decided to just avoid being there in that event which she would just use as a platform for more mind games and grandstanding. I remember that I decided to watch Charlotte’s Web alone at home and I was crying throughout the whole movie thinking that I really permanently lost my dad forever.

            I have never heard of Jonny Kim. I looked him up and I don’t know if you are referring to the same Jonny Kim that I saw which is really young and is an astronaut. If that is the guy, he totally gives me empath vibes too and he seems to be an amazingly impressive person but I am worried that they will just eat him alive if he ever enters politics. I am still hoping that Ben Carson would get a break and become our president.

          71. Getting There says:

            Hello, Mommypino!

            I’m very tired, stressed, and something happened on Friday that has me struggle with me. I’m not telling you this looking for pity but to explain that my mind is full of thoughts trying to be processed and solved all at once. I thought about waiting before responding but I didn’t want you to think I was ignoring you. I hope I make sense in what I write, though. LOL

            That is the same Jonny Kim. I agree about the empath vibe! He highlights and thanks others in his postings on Instagram, including the people behind the scenes. It isn’t all about him and his accomplishments. His mentor at Harvard medical school said he is humble. He doesn’t see his children as extensions of him and said that he loves when one said that they wanted to be an artist; he just wants them to follow their heart. He left residency for astronaut training. I wonder if he will go back afterwards. I would want a doctor like him if either myself or someone I knew needed an emergency room.

            It’s interesting that I can read what you are sharing about MLK and struggle, but in real life I am quick to say someone is a narcissist. At that Instagram site I follow that I mentioned before, there was a man who found happiness but left art school and found it. His comment was a bit of a slight to those who attend art school, but I don’t think he meant it that way. A guy commented in the comments and was saying mean things about this guy. Right away I thought “you’re a narcissist.” It only just hit me today that maybe he is an empath or normal but his love of art school made him feel like something dear to him was being attacked. I call so many narcissists and yet there can be reason for their behavior, or mine, otherwise.
            The reason I struggle with MLK or others is that I really don’t know what the truth is. I want to read that book now.
            The way my mind is working on the issues you mentioned:
            Sex addiction. I agree with you that sex addiction nowadays is an excuse and is a red flag. In the 50s and 60s, though, the standards of what was appropriate for sex was different and society’s view and description of a person engaging in otherwise would be very different. I agree that multiple affairs is a red flag. It makes me struggle about Elvis, though. I believe him to be an empath. He was very giving and didn’t advertise it. His affairs and the age of his wife are big red flags.
            Comment at funeral. Did the book capture what was said? If it was a sexual comment, then that is very inappropriate. I am very curious about this comment. One issue I have found is how different regions interpret different things said. I have a friend from the East Coast who struggled with a man from the South East. She thought his comments and actions were saying that she is incapable of being independent and can’t do simple things for herself. For him, he thought he was being a gentleman. If someone from the Mid West said “bless your heart,” it usually means that you are going through a hard time and they are expressing sympathy. If a person from the SouthEast and parts of Texas said it, it’s not a compliment even though they are smiling when saying it. I just had a friend compliment my looks. He wasn’t hitting on me, he wasn’t be disrespectful. I knew that because I know him and knew he was trying to establish a point. If another said something similar, I would assume he is hitting on me. I am not trying to downplay what Mrs Kennedy said or how she felt. As bad as it sounds, I think knowing what was actually said would help me understand her feelings and see more. I think part of my struggle of believing is because MLK was a hated person and history is sometimes based on who is teaching it. For example King George III. An American will probably only know him as that evil king who lost the American Revolution. We aren’t taught anything else about him. Evidence is evidence, though. If the evidence shows him to have said the sexual things credited to him, then I would no longer struggle but still appreciate the good that he did and brought into the world.

            Your story of your aunt reminded me of a funeral I went to. It was a significant sad moment and tears were all around, yet there was a woman who was loud in her crying. I later asked my friend about her. My friend explained that the lady was the sister-in-law. Her husband had unexpectedly died recently. It made sense that the grief was compound grief and it was not a show but the feelings stirred up.

            Can I tell you that how you handled each makes sense to me? I can see your Carrier traits jumping in. Not only did you go and take care of her until she died, but then you had to plan the funeral with help, and you had to consider the pain she caused others and the impact to them. Your empath traits of caring for others first seem to be highlighted. As for your dad, if I remember correctly you took care of him too. It seems in your way of handling the Celebration of Life that you wanted to respect his memory. When you knew your sister couldn’t do it, it seems you implemented your boundaries and did your grieving in a way that honored him. Is that your favorite movie?

            I hope you and your family are having a great weekend. Other than my mind and all, it has been a good weekend here.

          72. MommyPino says:

            Hello Getting There,

            I’m sorry that you are feeling tired and stressed. I totally don’t think that you are looking for pity. Please get some needed rest. Don’t worry about me as I totally understand if it takes a while to respond. I also sometimes take a while to respond a lot of times. I still want to respond to the other subjects from your comments too.

            Regarding MLK, it isn’t that hard for me to think that he could be a narcissist because I have come to a conclusion that just because someone is a narcissist doesn’t mean that the good that they have done should be erased. My mom was a narcissist and was abusive to me but she has also taken care of me with the best of what she had in her. She protected me (too much but she still did!). She built houses for my grandmother and uncle (using my dad’s money meant for me but she still used it for good!). She had paid for my cousins my education when they were young (although she was abusive to them while she was providing them with education). I mean they are not pure evil. They can be instruments for good and for changes to happen and for us to evolve. Sometimes it takes a pushy narcissist to force a society to evolve.
            I don’t think that the remark by Jackie O. is in the book but I have seen it in the internet. Her daughter Caroline said that she decided to not remove anything from the recordings because it will change history.

          73. Violetta says:

            MommyPino and Getting There:

            My birthday is in the Fall. I was quoting the “Un-Birthday Song” from Alice in Wonderland:


          74. MommyPino says:

            Hi Violetta that is so cute!!

          75. Getting There says:

            Thank you for clarifying, Violetta! I knew the quote but misunderstood Mommypino’s message to you. Hopefully you had had a great birthday in the fall, and a great one this year as I may miss it.

  20. Abort! Abort! Abort! Time for a Spring Cleaning of the mind, to abort this madness that many of us have been programmed with, especially in the West, including North America. How easy many of us were to bait by hungry fishers of love and empathy. And, many times with weak bait and weak hooks. And if perchance we were not baited enough or timely enough, many of us threw our owns selves, onto the vicious hooks, hoping to be pulled completely into the world of our programing. But, that world is not there, and we end up here to earn about a cleaning service..

Vent Your Spleen!

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