Will The Sex Tape Or Other Sensitive Material Be Used Against Me?
You had no idea what you were dealing with.
You thought you could trust them.
You only did it to please them.
You thought they were being kind and understanding.
So many people creates videos containing sexual content involving themselves (and others), send nudes and/or disclose other sensitive information to the narcissist. The list is extensive and includes
- Admitting to behaviour which could compromise your relationship with friends
- Disclosing information which could affect your work, reputation and standing
- Providing information to a narcissist which could jeopardise your licences or fitness to serve
- Giving the narcissist sensitive financial information
- Telling the narcissist about abuse you have suffered
- Sending the narcissist a sex video or pictures of a sexual or embarrassing nature
- Admitting to behaviour which could compromise your relationship with family
- Providing information to the narcissist which could be used against you with regard to an existing romantic relationship.
- Evidence of illegal behaviour, such as drug usage.
In those circumstances whether it is a sex tape or some other individual YOU need to know whether the narcissist will use this against you and if so in what way?
Using his unrivalled knowledge of the behaviour of narcissists, HG Tudor details clearly and extensively how this material is used by the narcissist so you can know what to expect so you can make informed decisions AND gain reassurance.
The Logic Bulletin includes
- What is the mindset of the Lesser, Mid Range or Greater Narcissist when acquiring this information at the outset
- Why do narcissists gather such material
- How each school of narcissist will use the material in the following scenarious
- IPPS in Golden Period
- IPPS in Respite Period
- IPPS in Devaluation
- Former IPPS who escaped
- Former IPPS who has been disengaged from
- Candidate IPSS
- Shelf IPSS
- Dirty Little Secret
- Non Intimate Secondary Sources (friends, family, colleagues)
- Will it be used and if so, when?
- Detailed scenarios with regard to Lesser, Mid Range and Greater for each of the situations detailed above, referencing hoovers and Malice Campaigns
If you fear that a narcissist may make use of sensitive material against you from the past, a current ensnarement or to guard against such disclosure in future relationships, you need this material so you can understand what to expect rather than continue to be anxious and worry.
This Logic Bulletin will be sent as an audio file via email and is available at a discounted initial rate of just US $ 30. Stop fearing and start learning, now.
194 thoughts on “Will The Sex Tape Or Other Sensitive Material Be Used Against Me?”
Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)
This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.
In a thread somewhere. I saw that there was a you tube video by HG. To listen to regarding if I am a narcissist. Can someone Point me that Direction, please?
https://narcsite.com/why-am-i-behaving-like-the-narcissist/
I have that though.. and iiits not from you tube so didnt know if there was something different.
The one I listened to was “Am I the Narcissist?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BCxzyQd6UNw&t=1s
There are other good vids. Get on YT, enter HG Tudor, and just surf through them.
Thanks sweetheart
You’re so spot on Renarde. It is always the woman’s fault no matter what.
Slightly different scenario but to demonstrate it is always the woman’s fault. If a woman’s husband cheated on her, it is ‘her fault’ for not giving out enough sex or good quality sex. The OW is also at fault for luring the husband away. It’s never the man’s fault.
Sadly it only seems to be a select few who really consider the whole picture in whatever a given situation is.
Your reaction re if someone disclosed to you that they were being threatened is exactly what I would and have done.
Dear Zielum,
Back in my day, we had Polaroid cameras … instant pop out !
At least it was in your own hand ! The picture… is what I’m referring to 🤣
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
Dear Bibi,
Me too ! 😊…..and I’m not on WP
Luv Bubbles xx 😘
HG,
This is an excellent LB! I learned a lot, especially the way you broke it down between Lesser, Mid-Range, and Greater.
It teaches more than just what will happen to the sensitive information but also about the mind set of the different schools.
May I ask what is the likelihood of MRN using sexy stuff they received from IPSS to triangulate IPPS? (Meaning “accidentally” or purposefully allowing IPPS to see it)? That is my greatest fear since IPPS may go nuts and then out me herself (understandably)
Thank you
They tell secrets too! Or the private investigator skills you have to seek the truth, use those skills.
Lisk
Me too. My comments in this thread are a jumble.
I’ve also lost the ability to ‘like’. It never loads up.
Also, I am not sure why my comments are not appearing under those I am responding to. Whatever, WordPress.
Desirée:
I agree it could be great blackmail potential but they don’t have to know you deleted it! I personally would not want that junk still around. I’ve had some dicks sent to me, but I don’t keep them around unless I wanted to create some Wall of Dicks. Haha.
You’re right too about your ET being altered by taking another look. There’s nothing good to come of it.
So, I’ve bought this today and listened.
I cannot reveal contents but it’s good. Very good indeed. It will put peoples minds at rest. I wish I could say more but I cant.
If someone threatens you with exposure, you wont be able to stop them but you will grasp what happens and why it happens. So purchase.
Recommended.
Thank you Renarde.
HG
Did not know that.
Lorelei
Nailed it. I feel it too. Who is the sex industry aimed at largely? Men. Who gets punished for sexual transgressions? Women. Largely.
Women, in my perception, are largely not viewed as human when they are depicted for hetero males enjoyment. I mean, you’ve seen the computer animated porn?
Of course it is sensible never to share but equally why not? Wheres the crime? Of course it is a crime of shame and possibly wrecked employment.
If I had an employee come to me and say, ok, nudes or sex tape leaked and the narc is threatening me with them, I would he more concerned with that person who was sat in front of me.
If I was forwarded them I would be immediately contacting the police. And assisting them in any way whilst simultaneously supporting the employee from issues at work.
Bibi
A very good point which I’d actually not considered.
When you get back into the annals of my gallery, its chock full of cock. All unsolicited. Every now and again I like to scroll them.
And laugh and laugh and laugh.
Bibi
Thank you! Channeling Marilyn at Xmas last year.
Really enjoyed the experience. First time in nearly two years where I had a concept then took pictures.
Last time was an extremely provocative set. Think corset, stockings, no knickers.
There are unlikely to be any more now. I’ve said all I need to regarding erotic pictures. I dont get ideas any more, largely. I’m glad for that.
I’ve taken well over 1k. Of that, maybe 30 are any good or to the standard I would wish. I’m very proud of those.
When you start, you begin to realise how difficult it is to disguise certain parts or even get your legs in. Plus light. Light is everything but you can get really good results with a standard phone. See HGs IG. His are fantastic.
Look at me, giving advice on taking nudes when the article is about how they can be exploited!
You know, taking erotica for yourself is incredibly empowering. Between 14 and 18, it bought me personally a lot of joy. Now I can proudly say, that’s what I looked like. That was how good my eye was. My concepts as photographer.
Something for old age. So if you can keep them secure, why not I say? Take them for you.
I once did a shoot with an amateur wanting to turn pro. For free. In exchange he used them for publicity. The expression on pretty much all of the pictures was hard and cold.
Am on a roll Bibi. The worst thing you can do to a woman during a shoot is wrap her in some ‘voile’ like a blanket. Then soft focus. No need if you understand the female body and natural light. I largely do not recommend these shoots. Waste of money. Potentially dangerous too.
Renarde—I bought a bamboo bra today for $4 at a discount place and I swear I could almost take a picture of what this thing is doing!!
Dear Violetta
Fuck me sideways with an aubergine! Brilliant. I love love that film!
In a subconscious way I think on reflection, part of Renarde is modelled on Lily von Shtupp.
‘I’m so….tired’
But yes. A number 6. Of course the lovely Lee that he is was far to intoxicated by my immense charm, poise, intelligence and innate narc magnetism to go straight to rape. It was either he bought me. Or Death. A twue romantic. He has far too much honour to rape but not enough not to kill.
The insults proffered were, hope you die a painful lonely death, your husband cheated and you caught him in bed with another. I’m going to hunt you down. A threat technically. Can you imagine some poor woman consulting HG about him?
‘This is HG. How may I assist you?’
‘He wants to kill me, Mr Tudor. But before that a No 6?’
‘Ahh, excuse me for a moment. I believe i have some information pertaining to these matters which may be useful.’
10k though! Think of all the consultations I could have! I could literally pay HG for a weekend for just for a roll on roll off over in under 10 minutes! I’m such an idiot!
Please be my agent, Vi!
Renarde:
‘rape the shit out of me’.–was he planning the Number Six Dance?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EM-lxsxeXBI
Bibi
I kind of agree with you but then I think about all the times the narcissists in question left me thinking I should have kept those receipts/blackmail material/embarassing video footage of them drunkenly crying in self-pity.
Having them know that this sensitive material is in my possession still might have altered their behaviour.
But then again it would have also altered my behaviour by way of further increasing ET because I would probably look at it “just once”.
I saw the news yesterday while cooking lunch. Terrible when something like that happens. It appears it was foggy and yet they had the ok to fly despite that.
Renarde, you are so sweet. I love your pic, BTW.
I also hold the opinion that if one owns sensitive material that the narc gave that it should be deleted. Not only would I want to never see it, but I wouldn’t want to be held liable were it ever leaked by some 3rd party (hacker, etc.)
@Mercy you’re right, the difficulty would be linking the suspect to the crime, if the photo/video is shared annomously. Police can confiscate phones and laptops for download, but I’m not sure if they do that with every report.
Narcs who are not physically violent can get away with a lot within the criminal justice system because it’s much harder and more time consuming to accumulate evidence for coercive control and stalking and harassment
Witch, I absolutely agree. Honestly, once it’s out there the damage is done. No conviction will reverse it. My ex created a IG page highlighting one of his IPSS. No nudes but some pretty bad post about her. He then follow requested people that followed her. It was taken down but the damage was done.
@Mercy
As embarrassing and hurtful as that is, it’s still better if it’s reported and taken down. People will talk at first but humans are generally fickle and move on pretty quickly.
It’s the covert abuse that can be frustrating because we feel no one can see it—or believe it.
@Lorelei although we have a long way to go especially globally, there is a heightened awareness and understanding of domestic abuse, so people will personally believe victims minus the narcissistic types. However, proving emotional abuse in a criminal court is much more challenging, not impossible, especially as technology also works in our favour as well as the narcissists, but it’s still significantly harder to prove
My entire clinical project is likely related to improved screening for abuse. I’m developing it now. I may discuss one day.
I’ve disclosed a lot of sensitive material to my narc guy, but only what I’m willing to have disclosed. I can’t help that he knew about my escorting–he found my ad on his own. So there’s no hiding that, he can see for himself any time I’m at it again. Oh well. I already take the risk by having my ads up…If I get caught, I get caught. Life goes on. I have zero shame about it–I often tell people cause I’m a bit indignant that it’s supposed to be a “hush” thing no one talks about. I’m proud of what I do.
I did stop short of sending him a sex tape at his request. Pics, sure–who cares, so what if people see my naked body. But I’m highly hesitant to send vids, for the embarassment factor. Solo sex exhibition is not my forte, therefore I would rather not have a record of it out there, out of my control.
Divorce has already taught me the importance of separate finances. I know every last account number and password of my ex’s, as I was in complete control of them while we were married. Luckily for him, I’ve no inclination to use them against him. But I’ll be damned if I put that level of control in someone else’s hands with my own finances and accounts.
I try to make myself as blackmail-proof as possible by first coming to terms with the possible publicizing of anything I disclose. If I’m not comfortable with it being public, I don’t send it. That’s the paranoid side of me. Sure, some things would still make life much more difficult…but it wouldn’t be the end of the world.
Trust no one. You never know for sure into whose hands you’re placing sensitive info.
HG
Addendum. Police do fuck all.
It’s like Head. Desk. Bang. Repeat. In perpetuity.
Recently, I’ve had a death threat. I thought he was going to offer to ‘rape the shit out of me’. Alas; I was left disappointed. It was just death. Boo.
Before that he played his BLUF. Told me he wanted to buy me. But no more than 10K.I mean, where do you start?
11K? 110K? 110, 000K?
I told him over and over. No price. None.
Then he threatened to kill me. Then he backtracked saying he was offering 10K for a Tarot Reading.
Point is, crimes against women are now reaching staggering proportions. Police will not help. Well they will but you will be dead first.
Oh you poor thing! What. A. Cunt.
Yoir son would not have viewed them btw.
Lorelei
Very well said. Its beyond vile. In my perception, unless you are a kink woman, a lot of females do need to be coerced into ‘happy snaps’. Then they have you. A lever which will always be used against you.
Last time I looked, blackmail is illegal. Not that it stops the perpetrators. Who correctly assume the Police will do fuck all.
We are all born naked. Who gives a fuck?
Renarde,
Is that a pic of you? Someone turn the heat down, it’s getting hot in here! 🔥
Mercy
Thank you very much! It’s me from a few years ago.
There are two female narcissists who have been using personal and financial details against me.
One of them works at a bank where I used to have an active account. Narcissistic bank clerks do not respect confidentiality. They know that the customer cannot prove who disclosed confidential information.
The bank clerk is in contact with a vindictive narcissist. I fear more the latter than the first one.
I do not have a relationship with any of them.
I consider myself a Tertiary Source but I do not know how these women perceive me with their strong need to damage my reputation and finances.
Do you think this package will be helpful in my case, HG?
Yes it will assist you and if you need any further input after listening, I will help you.
Thank you, I will purchase it!
Jolly good.
The really sad piece you mention—that anyone would feel re-victimized (actually or potentially) by telling someone of abuse suffered. You mention this in the list of concerns. Talk about absolutely venomous for it to even be perceived as a “weakness.” Capitalizing on someone’s shame (potentially the narcissist) and then for a victim to be concerned their private moment/s could make the shame come alive again. That is really even more screwed up than so much of it. That someone could be or is vile enough to “go there.” I’d take out an add in the local news to tell it myself before some asshole could have the pleasure.
HG
Dont really know what to make of this assistance package. Yes, it will help. Absolutly.
But there is a very much larger argument here; the right to privacy and moreover, what two consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their bedroom is clearly their business. And theirs alone. British Law is extremely clear on this. You cannot share photographic content without permission.
So the MINUTE someone shares this to an employer; they have broken the law.
Not that the Police give a damn about white collar crimes. They are far too stupid to see it. And overwhelmed.
I, as a woman, have every single right to take pictures of my body, videos even. Does this stop me discharging my professional duties? I think not.
This adherence to the fact that women cannot be utterly wild and fully sexual is absolute misogynistic nonsense. What on earth have men been doing all these years?
I’ve often said as a kink and BDSM educator that women are streets behind men. When we look as if we might catch up; we are punished again.
I think it’s very probably a reality that some little thwarted poison pen torpedod my career. I was very VERY good at what I did. I think it speaks volumes that someone who I was in the employment of didnt trust me.
Bet you any money they wanked over the material though.
This is a site about narcissism and whether a narcissist will use sensitive material (which often contains sexual material) against you.
It is zero to do with “I, as a woman, have every single right to take pictures of my body, videos even. Does this stop me discharging my professional duties? I think not.
This adherence to the fact that women cannot be utterly wild and fully sexual is absolute misogynistic nonsense. What on earth have men been doing all these years?”
HG
You are absolutely right and I was having a rant.
It upsets me. It upsets me that something precious I had was used against me. And it was.
I spent the best part of ten years overweight. I lost about 8 stone. I was so proud of what I’d achieved. Size 22/24 to 12.
I thought I could be the empowered woman and I was wrong.
I must admit, I’m very curious as to the contents of this package. It’s nothing personal.
Sorry.
Well done on your weight loss.
No need to apologise.
You should obtain it, you will find it very interesting and useful.
HG At this rate, I’m going to have to get a job! Heaven forefend!
Thank you for your words.
HG
I just want to post this because it might help others. But if you have any insights if you can share, that would be good.
I’m unusual in that I approached taking pictures with a cool and logical head. I knew what I was doing and I knew the risk I was running. Many dont. So yes, your AP will of course be of help.
Indeed, much like my underwear, I would grade my own work. 1, 2, 3 etc. My pictures are very good because not only am I an excellent photographer I understand optics at a deep level.
So after my weight loss, I couldnt stop taking pictures. This is a narcasstic trait. But I actually very rarely took pictures for other people; they were for me. And me only.
I didnt and still dont give a damn about if people wank over them or not. Be polite and respectful I would always say. Appreciate them. That’s nice. But not needed. I didnt need that validation from others.
I’ve published hundreds of pictures. Recieved thousands of comments. Only two people needed to be dealt with. Just two. Both inconsequential.
My pictures were always tasteful. You would NEVER catch me posting on the net hardcore. These were the 3s.
Of course I have indulged. A few times. But when I did it is with the knowledge that it was between my partner and I. I was disciplined.
So if some wankstain wants to forward to my employer a cheesecake picture of me in my AP undies to get revenge; go right ahead. They have just broken the law.
There have been two cases of interest recently. A US teacher was sacked because a topless picture was hacked by a student. Second, a Russian judge who was also sacked because her phone was hacked and again, a picture released.
I am very VERY angry at this. Women are adored and abhorred. Madonna or Whore. Black. White. Its disgusting.
Who buys porno mags, visits sex and peep shows? Strip bars. Clip joints. Uses lapdancers. Visits prostitutes. And of course my favourite; Thailand. Men do. Not women. Men. Largely.
Hetero men can behave in a way towards women which is not respectful, kind or decent at times.
I for one am sick and tired of this double standard.
I gave a talk last week on my own experiences as a Woman in Science. Good feedback apparently. I gave them my CV. But I also talked about how many times I had been discriminated against based solely on my gender in the workplace. How I’ve been inappropriately touched whilst discharging my professional duties. It’s a lot.
I mean really, spanking me in an office in front of techs after I’d led the Production meeting? Fuck that shit. What would you have done, HG? Took him outside for a ‘quiet word’? I cant do that, I’m 5’4″.
Point is, there is a point somewhere, that no one persuaded me to do what I did. It’s very probably cost me at least one job. A job I was extremely competent at.
What I do professionally cannot really be done by very many. Its incredibly difficult, intellectually demanding and requires deep education.
The fact that it’s been undermined by a poison pill speaks volumes about the world and society we live in.
So, get HGs work I say. If I had my time over, I’d still do what I did. Conscience is clear. I did nothing wrong.
Well, just have.
Thank you
Thank you for obtaining it.
HG
Just listening. I’m about to get to the juice!
Seriously, “rights” go out the window when you’re dealing with a narcissist.
Renarde—I appreciate this so much. Culturally, it is presumed someone should have shame over certain behaviors or experiences—I felt this way in regard to the piece where someone may have concerns of having shared abuse with an abuser—to then be further shamed. So not ok. It would harm my profession for photos and that is why there is no such material. Less to do with being ashamed, but for practical reasons it is essential. But—it still says there is something wrong with it and that may well not be ok.
Christine
And here I am! Your wish is my command!
My ex used it as a threat. If i was to disclose certain information to certain people then the dirty photos went to my (then 12 year old) son. It says a lot that i Did not have the confidence to disbelieve the threat to be an idle one. I still forgave and stayed – even sadder!!
HG, not to get off topic, out of curiosity, what are the basic laws in regards to revenge porn in the UK?
I assume you are referring to the criminal law, rather than any form of civil address.
It is a specific criminal offence governed by section 33 of the Criminal Justice Act 2015. Prior to that it “piggy-backed” existing criminal offences rather than being a specific criminal offence in its own right. In essence it has three specific elements
1. Disclosure of a private sexual photograph or film;
2. Without the consent of the person depicted; and
3. With the intention of causing that individual distress.
HG, I would assume that it would be hard to convict someone of this. Most would do it anonymously using fake accounts to expose the vids or pics. The average victim wouldn’t have the money to get evidence needed. Also once it’s out there, there’s no reversing it. It can be deleted but others could have copies by that point.
There are difficulties throughout the process. In the UK the number of complaints re “revenge porn” has risen but the number of convictions has fallen.
Thank you HG, it’s like stalking in the US. It’s illegal but hard to prove.
HG,
Yes, I was inquiring about the criminal laws in the UK. I think I recently saw a few article that stated that Northern Island made emotional abuse punishable by law? And they made the standards lower with how to prove this? I do not have the details no live there, so I was curious bout how progressive your neck of the woods are with creating laws with the ever so growing problem with narcissist using electronic devices to perpetuate abuse.
Here in the USA, my opinion is that we are behind with creating laws to protect. There are no federal laws in regards to revenge porn per se, it’s a state law jurisdiction issue. I believe only about 33 states have created laws specifically for revenge porn. Here is AZ., we have a statute, but knowing how prosecution works, I believe unless it was a crime dealing with a minor, there would be a lot of hesitation for the state to go after a revenge porn crime. The police and Attorney General would probably want the victim to obtain protective orders first, and if it continued, they would then prosecute because now it is on an aggravated level, and then possibly brought down to lesser charges like a slap on the wrist like “harassment by electronic device”, this would give the next victim no indication about what she were to be getting involved in, if she ever pulled up his criminal record. A narcissist could easily lie about what “harassment” means.
On another note, I have closely been following that narcissist/sociopath teen, Michelle Carters criminal case. She was the teen who was psychologically abusing her boyfriend, and eventually convinced him, and gave him instructions on how to kill himself. They convicted her of Involuntary Manslaughter, and she was sentenced to 15 months in jail. The whole trial, her defense was arguing First Amendment Rights with the US Constitution, where we have the “freedom of speech”. Therefore her defense argued that text messaging alone could not be considered an act of Involuntary Manslaughter. The state of Massachusetts disagreed with the defense argument at trial level, her defense team recently brought it before the Appellate Courts, and the motion to be heard was denied. I am curious if they will motion to have the Supreme Court hear the case. A lot of narcissist in USA use their constitutional rights out of context to bully. I personally deal with this with my daughter’s father, “I live in the USA, I can do what I want!!!” so it always catches my attention with how the system/government deals with the evolvement of narcissist and their crimes
Oh HG, thanks for going there. This question weighs heavy on my mind. I will be purchasing for sure!
You are welcome. This is a most important LB.
I’m headed out for a first time coffee interlude. Shall I made a video today Mercy!
Lorelei
Haha girrrl you better not! Who’s the lucky guy? Where do you meet all these men?
You please don’t go there Mercy! 🥺
FM1T, I’m just wondering. She’s always meeting someone. I haven’t found anyone that excites me enough to give my valuable time to. I’m a busy woman, I’ve got to have a reason to make time.
I was just teasing you Mercy. Or maybe it was Lorelei I was teasing? Ha ha. Raising Lorelei has become a full time job, but it is job I will never give up! 🥰
FM1T, I know you were kidding. We’ll get her straight eventually haha
Mercy don’t tell her this, but I think I’ll keep her just the way she is! 🥰
FM1T, I agree!
Mercy—meet up groups too.. I haven’t done it yet but there is a climbing group I want to try. The men should be fitness oriented and fun. Baseball games—we have a minor league team. Wine tastings.. Shakespeare in the park in the summer.. (I do live in a quasi-metro area which helps) Anyway—on a serious note. This package sounds great. I hold back nearly most uncomfortable sorts of things so I’ve never revealed much to friends or my ex. (Not the real painful/emotional stuff..) Of course it’s unavoidable to not have some uncomfortable material “out there.” I do want this though for the forensic experience of understanding it.
Lorelei, I listened to this last night and now I have more questions for HG on the subject. I think I will get a narc detector (Im not 100% on the ex’s school) and then a consult.
HG approves.
I felt validated when I did it— I mean I knew but it confirmed.
Lorelei, I have no doubts that he’s a narc, I just can’t pinpoint his school. He’s intelligent and has an extensive fuel matrix like a greater, he whines like a bitch like a mid and he’s impulsive and just recently violent like a lesser. It’s very confusing to me. He has no awareness (very very little) so I’ve ruled out greater. I was thinking upper mid but the recent violence throws me off. I didn’t care up until I listened to this last LB. Now it’s a little more important to know.
Hi Mercy—coffee was nice. I was excited because this coffee shop used to be my favorite place and was suggested as the “go to.” Unfortunately, there was zero seating so nearby shops/art gallery provided a nice stroll and good conversation. The aim of this entire “event” was benign but we discussed research ideas so no actual ornery intent—although not an impossible thing. I was truly just being silly. I have not had a relationship that would be interesting enough for film beyond third and three quarters bases for several years with a male human. I was at three and three quarter base (if there is such a three quarter base!) very nearly —very recently and ended the situation for practical reasons. He was quite promising though..
I meet people everywhere—everywhere I talk to people. Anywhere I go. This situation originated through a volunteer venture for providing resources to single & impoverished moms. As far as actually pulling the trigger on “actually” sleeping with a man (like all bases covered!)—that is a big deal. There is not a huge issue meeting people but the only people I’m really drawn to seem to be narcissists. So—guess what—that would be square one. I know I’m engaging enough to meet a normal man because I literally talk to anyone/anywhere—but it’s just different. They “feel” awkward. What didn’t feel awkward today? The guy with his family at the grocery store—we locked eyes twice. It felt “like home.” Isn’t that sick? It’s obvious what that interaction was. A normal person feels like jello that is not jiggly enough! I’m a f*^%#* mess clearly. I’ll be here awhile. But as far as films in my future.. I doubt I’ll really “go there”—-I try but in reality sex is very much a huge hygiene issue as much as “just sex.” If I know someone is actively single and seeing people my mind has a hard time not stressing over being exposed to something. I did sleep with someone briefly at one time some years ago that I reflect back and could still kick myself for not being careful and thank the universe I didn’t get some horrible thing! He was a whore. **I am more talk than action!
“This situation originated through a volunteer venture for providing resources to single & impoverished moms.” Oh my gosh, if that’s not a red flag!
What do you mean a red flag? I think the venture is worthy, promotes and fosters wellness —and the governor wants it in all counties. I plan to participate in making this happen and it’s because I enjoy working with underprivileged people.
Lorelei, I think lisk was talking about the guy you met last night and potential mid Range narcs using this type of charity for their facade. It kind of emphasizes what I was saying earlier about meeting new people and the lack of ambition I have. There are red flags everywhere and I don’t have the energy to sort through who’s real and who’s not. You are sincere in your passion to make this venture work and a narcissist would exploit that.
Mercy…you explained my intent better than I could!
Thank you,
lisk
I mean certain types of men might gravitate to that sort of thing. Same types that tend to gravitate to Women’s Studies courses . . . .
Hey Lisk—don’t bother commenting on what I write please or “liking” anything I post. I’m not trying to be rude. It’s just that .. Well—after you enjoyed throwing the second punch on the Odd thread and were openly rude I don’t wish to have much in the way of friendly banter with you. At least Julie could throw a punch. On her own. I haven’t said one word to you—for a reason. Thank you.
Lorelei,
I comment and “like” and ignore as I wish—just as anyone does here—regardless of personal feelings or “history.”
Most often, I read comments first, before I even read who wrote them. Many times, I address the comments and not the commenters. I never aim for “banter,” but if it happens, so be it.
Lorelei, At least you’re trying. I can’t get the energy to put the time into meeting new people. It’s seems too much like work, trying to figure out who’s sincere and who’s not. Like you, I’m drawn to the narcissist, so no I don’t think what you are saying is sick about the family guy at the grocery store. Last night I was trying to think of men I’ve met lately with potential. There is one guy that crushes on me. He’ll stop over once in a while or text or call. He has helped me with my remodel on occasion so we’ve become friends. But guess what, he’s married. Sex is as far as that would go but it’ll never happen (I’m sure he doesn’t know that though).
I think the problem with those of us that struggle with NC isn’t so much that we adore our ex N, it’s more like deal with the narc you know rather than the narc you don’t know. In all honesty it feels safe even though it’s not.
I just don’t shut up and am always gabbing. It’s more effort not to shut up! I didn’t realize you were doing a remodel! I reflected last night on how many dear people helped me with mine. It was a chore. I was building a fire outside last night and the patio was part of the re-do—everything is so peaceful now. Finally. I contemplated selling the house but with school tuition for the kids it’s best to stay put. The backyard is like a park too and I won’t get that elsewhere.
Lorelei,
Do please keep the park yard for the kids. My fondest memories growing up involved exploring and passing time in our giant yards. If I could afford it for my kids, I’d move to a house with one in a heartbeat.
Thanks Zelium—it’s a very ordinary house, but in a cul de sac, walking trails and the yard is quite large for a residential home. Most have tiny yards. I am too tired to relocate. I was going to maybe flip it in the spring..
Lorelei, I don’t know who vandenboss is but the comment gave me something to think about and I like the results. I don’t get jealous of other women. Ever! If another woman is prettier or more successful or has something I want, I’m inspired, not jealous. I think the triangulation used by my ex was so thorough that it cured me of any jealousy.
Same.. I feel the same. It was a joke anyway.
Absolutely not!! 😩
Kobe Bryant was killed. Where was I all day to not know this until now. Did you know I like basketball?
I do know you like basketball dear.
That was such a tragedy, I had trouble looking at the crash site on TV.
Kobe was an arrogant and abusive narcissist as well as a rapist.
I don’t disagree entirely based on the account of sexual behavior with the Nevada girl. But was he a narcissist or narcissistic?
Hello Lorelei,
Of course! Of course he is a narcissist. I don’t think anyone besides a narcissist is driven to rape, for one.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-bryants-disturbing-rape-case-the-dna-evidence-the-accusers-story-and-the-half-confession
This article describes the events in detail, second to second. From both perspectives. He was clearly entitled and recognized no boundaries. He even told the cops after caught in a lie that he should have paid for her silence like Kobe did.
According to the police report, while he was being questioned by the officers about the alleged sexual assault, Bryant said, “I should have done what Shaq does,” adding, “Shaq gives them money or buys them cars, he has already spent one million dollars.” The report added, “Kobe stated that Shaq does this to keep the girls quiet.”
He didn’t admit rape by saying that, merely infidelity, but that it’s still a narcy train of thought. I’m no expert by any means but I’m sure HG could if he wanted to, bold face the play-by-play she delivered of the experience with a narc speak explanation. I’m not at the level where I can explain things that well. If you learn about accounts of how he acted in general on the team, with teammates and other athletes, with the public, and towards his coaches you also see the evidence of narcissism very clearly.
Hope,
I read the whole article. The description of events sounded like a tame CNC (consensual non-consent) kink scene. If that’s the kind of sex he’s used to engaging in, he may not have thought to consider that not everyone’s into it and a “no” really would mean “no”.
I’m not saying that from her point of view, she wasn’t raped….Just that it seems plausible that from his point of view, he wasn’t committing rape.
I also didn’t see much of a smoking gun for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Entitlement and such, sure; but you need a whole set of traits before you can be given that diagnosis.
Hello Zielium,
I disagree. She used both explicit “no” and body language to convey she had not consented to which he acknowledged by telling her not to tell anyone.
Kink is discussed beforehand. Usually it’s a simple, “are you into _____?“ You don’t take a stranger, who is pulling away from you after you drop trousers, and choke them into submission.
These parts stand out:
”And the kissing continued then he took off his pants. And that’s when I tried to back up and leave. And that’s when he started to choke me.” —not normal as I explained above.
She estimates the kissing lasted for five minutes, and that that part was consensual. What happened after, she says, was not. “He started, um, groping me, I guess I’d say,” she told officers. “Putting his hands on me, grabbing my butt, my chest. Trying to lift up my skirt. Proceeded to take off his own pants. Trying to grab my hand and make me touch him.” —this is clearly non consensual. Have you ever experienced this? When a guy has to force your hand and you’re not into it, it’s evidence of shock and disgust on her face. Your body is in shock and alarm because of the choking and this complete disregard of her boundaries by forcing himself in these ways. You are scared and full of adrenaline. Someone who can’t respect these boundaries makes you wonder what other boundaries they don’t respect. For example they may choke to incapacitate. I once almost had to roll out of a moving vehicle because a guy started groping me and at that point he won’t listen to anything you say. I had to endure and wait until a light to jump out. There’s no reasoning with those people. If he knew I was going to jump out he may have gunned it and who knows what he would do with me or if I’d be alive afterwards. There’s a lot going on in these cases where the man clearly feels he’s in control and the woman has to strategize to stay alive. Both the man and woman clearly know the dynamic at this stage. It is no question in anyone’s mind it’s non-consensual.
“I told him once that I needed to leave,” she added. “He didn’t say anything. If he did [hear me] he didn’t make any gestures or anything that would let me know that he did.”—they both know what he’s doing. This is her testing his conscience in case he had one. It’s clearly defining the non-consent, which he ignores. This must have been challenge fuel because he becomes more aggressive:
At this point, the accuser told police that Bryant began to get rough with her: “When he took off his pants that’s when I started to kinda back up, and try to push his hands off me and that’s when he started to choke me. He wasn’t choking me enough that I couldn’t breathe, just choking me to the point that I was scared.”
Bryant then, she told police, began “grabbing and rubbing” her vagina over her panties. That lasted “two to three minutes, and during that time I was trying to uh, pull away.” Then, she says, he grabbed her neck with both arms. She claims that she didn’t say anything to him at this time, but he knew she was trying to leave “because I kept trying to back away and move towards the door.”—if your partner is pushing your hands away and you choke them and see visible fear and they try to get away from you it is clearly not consensual.
According to the accuser, Bryant put his body between her and the door. “I try and walk to the side, and he would walk to the side with me. And that’s when he started to put his hands on my neck,” she said, adding, “He was groping me, I tried to leave, tried to break away, that’s when he grabbed my neck. And at that point I was just looking at him, didn’t know what to do, didn’t know what to say.”
“Then he held me by my neck and physically forced me over to the side of the couch,” she continued. “That’s when he continually had one hand around my neck and with his other hand pushed me over to the side of the two chairs um, turned me around and bent me over and lifted up my skirt.” She told police that “at that point I was just kinda scared and I said no a few times,” adding she said no “when he lifted up my skirt” and again “when he took off my underwear.”—when you try to escape and he physically blocks you and hold you in place by your neck and removes your underwear she is clearly being violated. This is not kink. This is not mutual. It is obvious when a participant is unwilling especially if you look at their face.
When asked by police how she knew Bryant had heard her, she replied, “Because every time I said no he tightened his hold around me.”
The accuser said that, with one arm still around her neck, Bryant “would lean his face real close to me and ask me questions.” The question: “You’re not gonna tell anybody right.”
“I said no. And he didn’t hear me or asked me to say it louder. Wanted me to turn around and look at him while I said it,” she told police. She said that Bryant asked her the question “three or four” times, and her response every time was “no” because “I was scared that if I told him yes, I’m gonna tell somebody, I’m gonna get out of here now, that he would become more physical with me. Or try harder to keep me in there.”—if someone is threatening you, you do whatever you can to escape alive. This is why torture interrogations don’t work. You say what they want to hear. If you want a false confession you will get one. Have you never had someone twist your arm behind your back until you told them some lie, like you are great, powerful, handsome, God, the boss, etc? He’s clearly aware he is wrong and threatening her with fear to comply.
I understand kink is a thing but it’s not something you do without consent. Without talking about it without seeing evidence they are into it all along the way. Without checking in and certainly not ignoring them when they try to stop it and escape. You can’t blame a woman for being raped because a man refuses to acknowledge consent.
Hope,
As stated, I read the entire article, including the parts you quoted. There is a big difference between “rough sex/rape roleplay”, and “consensual nonconsent”…namely, that CNC is, by nature, *nonconsensual*.
My previous bf liked to play without safewords. There was no backing out once it started–because it was not roleplay, it was legit violence. Now, we didn’t mix it with sex, but that could easily have been part of it, in which case it would have been rape.
He knew I had a thing against belts due to a traumatic upbringing. What did he do? Spank my ass with a belt. He slapped me and choked and beat me as I screamed and cried and begged him to stop, as I shouted “NO!” over and over and over at the top of my lungs and thrashed to get away. I lunged for the door at one point and he grabbed my arm, yanking me back and throwing me forcefully onto the bed again to continue beating me.
What he did were all things that, in the moment, I clearly and genuinely did not want. It hurt like a motherfucker and I hated that he had all the control. It was very much nonconsensual.
However, we had discussed all of this beforehand–in fact, it’s how we met; it was the type of play we were both into. He was a sadist, I was a masochist. In a meta way, I *did* want the abuse and violence. And so, it was also very much consensual.
I’m very well aware that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about kink; namely, if you’re with a stranger that you don’t know anything about, you don’t violently assault them and claim it’s kink.
I’m merely trying to avoid jumping to conclusions, which requires considering all possibilities. What if Kobe really did think it was consensual? What if he genuinely misread the situation? What would have had to go through his mind for that thought process to make logical sense?
And the only thing I can come up with–especially considering his own admission that he regularly has this kind of sex with another woman–is that he’s into a type of CNC in where the other player shows nonconsent but is actually consenting.
Maybe he was confused because of the kissing. Maybe he figured the resistance wasn’t strong enough to be genuine. Maybe he’s never had a truly unwilling partner before and it didn’t cross his mind.
*Please* do note that I’m not passing judgement either way. She was obviously raped, since she was ultimately nonconsenting in every sense. All I’m saying is it’s not a foregone conclusion that he truly meant harm, that he truly meant to rape another human being. Completely possible he did, but also completely possible he didn’t.
One thing for certain is that whatever he was *trying* to do, he went about it the completely wrong way. He definitely should have done things differently, if he did in fact think she was consenting. You don’t play rough with strangers unless you know for a FACT they’re into it.
I had a guy do this to me one time, back before I got into kink. Hooked up from Grindr in his car, big black guy. I had said I was “into rough”, but he didn’t say one word about it beforehand and at that point in time, my idea of “rough” was pretty tame. So when he was on top of me, suddenly choking me and aggressively demanding if “this is what I wanted”, I was understandably a bit fearful for my safety. Immediately went along with whatever he was asking because I was already in too vulnerable a position to change anything. Luckily, he meant no harm, and we parted ways with him reverting back to decent human being. I felt zero ill will–I still don’t. He went about it wrong, but he wasn’t evil.
To reiterate. Assuming he had good intentions would be just as silly as assuming he had bad intentions; however, as none of us were involved in the situation firsthand and most likely none us were in the courtroom to hear all the evidence, I don’t think any one of us is in a position to determine what truly went on in Kobe’s head that night. He may have been a narcissist, or he may have just been an entitled guy who made some really bad judgement calls.
And as far as him telling her not to tell anyone–well duh, he was a high-profile married athlete with an image to uphold. Maybe he was trying to cover up rape–or maybe he didn’t want his wife finding out about his adultery, or maybe he didn’t want the media to get wind of his taste for rough sex. All are plausible.
And for the record. I don’t give two shits about what actually happened or didn’t. Him dying was the first I ever heard more of him than a name drop, as I couldn’t care less about sports. I do, however, take issue with people racing to assumptions from their armchair based on preconceived notions that may or may not have anything to do with the situation, and passing it off as gospel. That’s why our country is in this mess. No one wants to consider what the other side has to say because they’ve already passed their judgement and closed their ears to any contrary discussion. It’s a basic form of ignorance, and I despise ignorance.
And to further explain why this whole thing irritates me. Maybe most of you aren’t disordered. And I get that HG does a good job of making pwNPD out to be boogeymen, and that most of you were harmed by a maliciously-inclined narcissist. That’s fair. But some of us are disordered, and some of us have faced a lot of discrimination in our lives due to the disordered label and guess what, it sucks. I lost an employment opportunity that would have kept me out of escorting (not to mention living out of my car for several weeks, plus now being beholden to my ex’s generosity) because they saw the mental health label and immediately kicked me to the curb, assuming out their ass everything there apparently was to know about me just from that label. A friend of mine I made there was also kicked out, for a different mental health label but the very same reason. Both of us have kids, both of us were trying to better our lives for their sake, both of us were left scrambling to figure out what the hell to do next. I don’t ask for pity; I ask for a fair chance at what everyone else takes for granted, what they receive without ever having to defend themselves to the ignorant and judgemental.
Just some food for thought.
Zielum- I concede to our mutual hate of ignorance in all its forms. I also hate stigmatization of people based on condition.
You were able to excited your views in a way that I could see both sides. I’m very impressed. You are a very effective communicator and I have a healthy respect for the way you dissected this, truly unbiased.
Hope,
Thank you. I am legitimately floored. I’ve got a large web presence and have been presenting my case on various subjects online for over a decade. With your reply, I can now count on two fingers the amount of people who have told me that one of my arguments genuinely widened their perspective. I couldn’t’ve asked for a better outcome, so again–thank you.
Hi Zielum,
I am disturbed by some of what you have said and I wonder if I am just not understanding it correctly. You’re saying from his point of view he may not be committing rape and that no doesn’t really mean no. Why is his point of view relevant? If a 49 year old has sex with a 15 year old and his point of view is that they are mutually in love (could be the case) and therefore it was not rape, do we care about his point of view when the fact is that what he did was rape? The only point of view that matters here is the victim’s.
mommypino,
Uh…His view is relevant because he may not be a bad guy? Isn’t that possibility worth something to you?
I never made a blanket statement that “no” doesn’t mean “no”. I meant that misunderstandings do happen; there is a very real possibility that he misinterpreted what was happening and did think she was consenting, because in *certain types* of play, “no” can be disregarded, and he may have thought that was what they were engaging in. Again, I’m not making a judgement call on what was or was not his true intention; I’m merely saying the case isn’t an easy open-and-shut situation and none of us have all the facts.
Point of view is another way of looking at intent, and that certainly does matter. If I’m driving and accidentally strike down some guy who jumps into the street suddenly, is that not less of a moral issue than if I saw a guy and slammed the gas pedal, chasing after him until I’ve run him over? Both end up with a dead guy, both my fault, but in one scenario it was a horrifying accident and in the other scenario I’d be considered murderously insane.
It’s off-topic, yet interesting, that you bring up statutory “rape” and claim that the only viewpoint that matters is the “victim’s”. Except…a 15-year-old girl who had consensual sex with an adult isn’t exactly going to see herself as a victim, now is she? She’s going to see it for what it was: consensual sex. Only the government and those around her are going to insist she was a victim, and attempt to punish the adult, most likely against the teen’s wishes. So does her point of view matter either? Or do people just like to force their version of morality on those who may want nothing to do with it?
In both real rape and statutory “rape”, the act is illegal. Legality and morality have fuck-all to do with each other: Think of all the current laws you disagree with. Think of all the laws you wish were in place but aren’t. Are you immoral for disagreeing with the current state of legality on things? Or is morality actually very subjective?
I’m not arguing that she wasn’t raped; she was. He just may not have realized that he was raping her. That’s all.
Zielum,
There is a reason statutory rape exists! A 49 year old has undue influence and power over a 15 year old. They have more life experience and emotional maturity. When you were 15 you thought of yourself as invincible. When you grow up you realize you would not have made the same choices with the knowledge and experience you’ve gained. It’s not a level playing field and even if you don’t recognize it’s wrong—it’s still wrong. That’s why children aren’t allowed to do adult things. Like enter into legally binding contracts. They may wish to do so and the third pay may wish to form a contract but they don’t have the maturity to make that decision. 49 yr old who prey on 15 yr olds refund me of car salesmen that prey on fresh recruits. They legally enter into a contract to purchase a car they can’t afford because they imagine all the residual benefits of the car or the bf. They fail to take in the risks and end up paying way more than the car is worth over time or get repossessed. 15 yrs olds don’t need to be having sex. The 49 year old could wait three years the 15 year old often had a lower tolerance and lack of understanding and can’t. It’s the responsibility of the older person to recognize the ethical dilemma and choose appropriately. Often it’s not love just manipulation hence the reason for the law. Easy prey.
Hi Zielum,
Thank you for explaining. I now understand that you were arguing about his point of view that he wasn’t doing anything bad because he mistakenly thought that it was a consensual nonconsensual rape but under the law he still committed rape even though he didn’t intend to because he thought that it was what she wanted. Excuse me for my long sentence. I think I can kind of see what you are saying now. My confusion came from when you said, “ The description of events sounded like a tame CNC (consensual non-consent) kink scene. ”. I thought you were saying that it was a CNC and not rape. I have googled CNC and all of the articles that I have read said that both parties negotiate beforehand so even the masochist is empowered because he or she is able to negotiate and approve for the CNC to happen. This woman did not negotiate with Kobe beforehand so Kobe didn’t have a good reason to mistakenly think that she wanted to be raped and strangled. What could possibly be in his mind to do that? Entitlement. Just the same reason when Bill Clinton raped Juanita Broaddrick. Just the same reason when a spoiled and rich frat boy rapes a woman at a frat party. He was Kobe Bryant: he can do anything he wants. He had no empathy for that woman. If he did, he would have listened to her especially when they didn’t agree beforehand to what he was going to do. That woman was not a person to him. She was just an object. He didn’t care about her, in fact it took him a long time before he apologized. He even tried to smear her. His apology was his last resort to end the noise that she was making.
About the statutory rape, I had a feeling that you would bring up the point of view of the teenage victim. Her point of view doesn’t matter because she is a child and still under the protection of her parents. And the reason I brought it up is because I thought you were saying that because of Kobe’s point of view, it was a case of CNC and not rape and I was saying that under the law his point of view doesn’t matter, it is still rape. But thank you for clarifying that you agree that it was rape.
Also to add, rape is different from homicide. You can accidentally kill someone but you cannot accidentally rape someone. You have to consciously make a decision to immobilize the person so that the person will not be able to escape and you have to undress the person and rape the person. From the way the events were described by both Kobe and the victim, there was no prior agreement to a CNC and he completely ignored her rights to say no and her rights to her own body. He even assaulted her by strangling her. Can you imagine the fear that she had while she was being strangled wondering is she is going to live and still see her loved ones after this? Remember that unlike CNC where the masochist knows that he or she will live even though there is violence, this woman didn’t know what Kobe will do.
mommypino,
You absolutely can accidentally rape someone. I’ve already described the type of scenario where this could theoretically happen.
As I already stated: *If* Kobe was interpreting it as a CNC-type hookup, he did a piss-poor job of it. There’s no doubt he’s entitled; but being entitled is just one aspect of narcissism.
I’m sure I could imagine her emotions if I tried, but as I’ve said before on here, I don’t have much empathy and I don’t really feel one way or the other about this event. Also, whatever feelings she had are immaterial to the argument that he may not have realized the harm he was doing.
Never said he wasn’t “doing anything bad”. I said that he did, in fact, harm someone, but it’s possible it wasn’t his intent to do so.
I’ve never played the role of Dom in a CNC scene but I would imagine that a sadist would indeed need a suspension of empathy for the duration. Again, it doesn’t immediately indicate narcissist, just trait narcissism, which all humans have some degree of or they would perish.
I brought up the point of view of the “victim” in statutory “rape” because you brought it up first by saying it was the only thing that mattered (which you subsequently backtracked on and negated with this latest reply). I am not agreeing that statutory “rape” is real rape; it is legal rape, that is all. I already know that this is a touchy subject for most people and they can’t fathom the possibility that, were there no such thing as government, a 15-year-old could be perfectly mature enough and capable of consenting to sex with an adult. I already know I will get next to zero support for this point of view, so I won’t bother elaborating more. Just maybe try to think outside the narrow legal definition of things, as some situations should really warrant a case-by-case examination rather than a blanket moral judgement call.
Zielum, I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I disagree with your example of accidental rape. You don’t accidentally rape someone by assuming that they consent to being raped even if they kept on saying no. You don’t get to accidentally steal from someone because you “assumed” that that it was a CNC theft or that that person wouldn’t mind you taking their money or jewelry. CNC needs a prior negotiation or mutual agreement. Any normal person will understand that. So I’m sorry but your argument was not something that I would accept.
I under what you are saying about statutory rape. It depends on what the society deems acceptable. Many years ago, my grandmother who was 14 was arranged to marry my grandfather who was a good and kind man based on the accounts of everyone who knew him. He was in his late thirties and a widower. In those days it was acceptable and a good person like my grandfather would not see anything wrong with it. These days he would not have done that because he would not have thought that it was ok. So in that respect I agree with you.
However, I feel strongly about people having the right to protect themselves and I disagree that when a narcissist or a narcissistic person “assumes” that I wanted to be raped and strangled and ignored my pleas to stop, I disagree that they didn’t mean to harm me and that it was accidental. I think that’s bullshit. But I respect the different perspectives and thank you for discussing with me and sharing yours.
mommypino,
Yes, we will have to agree to disagree. Thank you for making the effort to understand my viewpoint.
I probably would have more empathy if the girl had been my daughter; however, again, it’s immaterial to my argument what the victim experienced. I know she was raped, that she experienced harm and no doubt trauma. I’m not downplaying what she went through on her end. My entire case centered on Kobe’s intent in the encounter, and how that should matter in terms of judging his character.
Other random thoughts I’ve had during reading this conversation:
Other indicators of Kobe’s narcissism:
He committed this act while his wife was pregnant with his child.
He had no issue with throwing Shaq under the bus to lessen the effect of his behaviour.
We do blanket all 15 yr olds as innocent, immature, and children incapable of grasping certain things when that is not always the case. We deem 15 yr olds not mature enough to consent to sex, yet we deem others mature enough to have concepts and behaviour worthy of the Nobel Prize for instance.
I myself at less than 15 came up with a plan to use sex against someone older (they were not innocent). It certainly wouldn’t be viewed as the best or most mature decision, and I didn’t do it ultimately, but I knew exactly what I was planning and the likely outcome. Sometimes I regret not doing it still. Partly because they were bad people and they may have gone on to harm others, but mostly because I would have likely got away with it, and if anyone did find out, I would not have been held accountable or judged at 15 as I would be now and I knew that at the time.
Yes, there have to be laws for protection and there is an age drawn, but we are not all “15” at 15. There are laws and opinions, and then there is the brutal truth.
NarcAngel,
Agreed. That was my exact point. I understand the need for a protective blanket law in a country of millions. But to attach morality to that law regardless of a case-by-case review ignores the reality we sometimes face.
My younger (by a year) sister was in a sexually active relationship with a guy five years her senior, while she was in high school. This guy was friends with both myself and my older sister. He was a tad immature for his age, while my younger sister was a tad mature for her age. It evened out. My parents were understandably irate at first and threatened him with legal action. But they couldn’t manage to keep my sister from seeing him. Eventually they gave him a chance, and had him over for dinner. They soon realized that this guy wouldn’t hurt a fly. Gentleman in every sense of the word. He and my sister went on to date for over four years before parting ways.
I hold the views I do because I look at my life experiences and see that most things aren’t black-and-white. Human life is messy; no one holds all the answers.
Zielum—these comments are thoughtful and interesting. All of them. I know nothing about this type of sex but it’s interesting to hear the views. I don’t say that to state any superiority re, not knowing—I just don’t and it’s a total lack of exposure. I know people do all sorts of things and all I was indicating or questioning is “Would this one event rule narcissism in 100% of the time,” Is it possible he’s narcissistic and had some degree of empathy as there were no further (that I know of) behaviors of this nature.
Lorelei,
It’s entirely possible either way. He certainly did exhibit entitled/self-centered behavior with this girl, no question there. But you can’t rule out narcissism just because he didn’t repeat this kind of action later, nor assume empathy. He suddenly had all eyes on him…he’d be a fool to risk doing it again–he’d lose everything.
*If* his intent was not to harm, and he didn’t have NPD, then he certainly may have felt empathy and remorse after realizing the mistaken judgement call he’d made. But if his narcissistic traits were high and he had meant to (or didn’t care if he did) harm her, then he probably would have blamed the girl for the bad outcome. It’d be her fault for sending mixed signals, her fault for making his life miserable, etc.
I just haven’t seen enough evidence to decide which way it was for him. Again, I’m not that invested in this particular case. I just find it interesting to explore possibilities since the topic has come up.
Interesting—he did have all eyes on him.
I highly doubt she’s the only one. I doubt this because of the statistics of reporting and barriers to reporting. Most people will not report. If you get caught speeding how many times didn’t you get caught? Do you change your behavior? I also doubt this is the only one because I do think he’s a narcissist and narcissists don’t change. Also I’ve read about convicted killers and rapist and they didn’t change. Maybe some do but these I read about or watched in documentaries didn’t. I’ve never heard of a reformed one before but that could because I’ve never searched for one and media don’t report on them. Maybe he upped his tactics such as using bribery or more specific threats than just choking while saying in general you aren’t going to tell anyone which had always worked for him in the past, in my guesstimation. Maybe he incorporates incriminating evidence beforehand such as providing drugs or alcohol to minors. Maybe he convinces them they want it or lies to them more with flattery so they allow him closer and are fooled into the activity rather than forced. This could be compared to a prostitute who engages in sex with the understanding she will get paid but then is not paid. This feels like rape afterwards. Only it’s worse because you feel like you are stupid and consented to the abuse.
Zielum makes great points that we don’t know unless we’re inside his head what his intent was. It may be unfair to judge but I’m judging anyway. This is something of a topic I’m quite selfish towards. I’ve been subject to sexual violence in many forms by many people many times for many years from probably age 3 to 31. I’ve seen a lot. I’ve experienced a lot. I’ve witnessed a lot. I’m not stupid, that’s not why. I am trusting and independent but that’s not why in every case. No matter what the cases, it’s never the victims responsibility they were abused. It’s always the perpetrator who holds full responsibility for abusing someone. I’m just stating what I think his intent was based on my experiences and my knowledge of other’s experiences and all the information I’ve learned through my job where we are trained every year on this and I also took a two week course on how to advocate for victims and understand the latest research into all aspects to better support them and connect them to resources. I ultimately stepped out of the role because they said we can’t empathize with them or divulge personal experiences or opinions. I’m too opinionated to be that disconnected especially after everything we learned throughout the course. They are supposed to decide for themselves what they want so I’m not unbiased enough to keep my emotions out of it. I also feel I couldn’t lie or push them away if they asked me personal questions. I would have trouble setting professional boundaries with victims.
Just following the different viewpoints on the Kobe situation. Morality is indeed subjective. Perspective is tricky too. We often lock in our perception of a situation one way when we inject ourselves into the narrative. Now change the girl to our daughter or Kobe to our son and watch it change.
I agree NA that all of that is subjective. If Kobe was my son or husband or father I would still have empathy towards the 19 yr old that he raped. Just like I have always had empathy towards my mom’s victims. And she didn’t even rape and strangle anyone. I have always thought that the 13 yr old daughter that died was innocent and it was absolutely tragic for her life to end at that age.
Now change the perspective to the rape victim being your sister or daughter or mother. Or change the rape victim to being one of Kobe’s daughters orbObama’s daughters and see how much more public outrage there will be. Why are some people more valuable than others? We are all humans.”
The reporter that was suspended because she tweeted an old article about Kobe’s rape said this:
“Any public figure is worth remembering in their totality, even if that public figure beloved and that totality upsetting,” Sonmez wrote.
I love that phrase”in their totality.” Because even héroes or celebrities have bad sides. And especially if they victimized someone, people have the right to bring up the other side of the story. What they don’t have the right is to be disrespectful to the family but we all have freedom of speech.
NarcAngel,
Exactly.
How about if the rape victim was your daughter or sister? Would you have more empathy towards her?
Again my thoughts – not taking any one side.
MP: Your question is fair, but conversely it could be asked of you:
If your son were in Kobe’s spot, don’t you think you would be grasping to accept the very facts for his defence that you are now rejecting in your argument against him? Most parents would struggle because of emotion. ET will hijack logic and evidence to present only the good things about them and rule out anything undesired. Just as it does in narc/empath relationships. We see this in the families of murderers all the time. “My son/brother/husband is not capable of this. I know he is innocent” .They truly believe it even in the face of overwhelming evidence. In that sense it seems that narcs are not the only ones to use a defence mechanism to survive trauma (although it seems more “adopted” than developed and might only be temporary in the case of a non narc).
Based on what we read I don’t believe the CNC defence either and think it’s quite a dangerous excuse packaged up for predators to use if it remains unclear in law. Z has only pointed out that because we do not know all of the facts that even if remote – it is a possibility (and one that I have suggested we might be willing to adopt in the scenario that Kobe were our son).
To Hope’s comment about the journalist – I think she absolutely should be able to present the totality of his life. The good and the bad. We already glorify and excuse too much in the quest for role models and heroes, and especially in death. People will make their own decisions as to what they choose to keep, but they should be presented with all that is known.
The totality yes NA. To be honest—and this stings.. My first husband would absolutely be branded a narcissist per the narc detector. Suspect another MMR and HE was who was the real parent that provided a sense of nurturing to my oldest daughter. Period. I was not able to provide much for a very long time. When he died she was solo because at that point I was flat on my ass. Obliterated for several years. This is our capacity to not see all black and white. My first husband was not a terrible person. We got along quite famously. His family is excellent—suspect his dad was an upper middle range narcissist and the puzzle comes together. I’m not qualified to make these determinations necessarily but I know I’m close. I’ll never ever say an unkind word to my oldest about her father. The devaluation ended with the marriage almost entirely. He was a high functioning charismatic man who lost everything to a horrible alcohol problem. His totality was blotchy—not all bad or all good.
I can see the flaws in my siblings and parents clearly and hate those parts and not defend those parts or dismiss them and still not hate them completely. But this that you mention NA, is why I fear having children. What if I produce an abuser? It would be hard to live with myself. It would be hard to watch it live. I can’t imagine.
Hope I had the same fear before I had kids and I also feared that I would become my mom. Both fears were just emotional thinking or/and ignorance about who I am as a person and how someone becomes an abuser. If you know how to love and you can feel empathy you will do just fine. A lot of parenting and instinctive which is based on ability to empathize with the little people. Which is partly why narcs are not the greatest parents because their lack of empathy makes them incapable of understanding their kids. When I told my dad that I wanted to have a dog but I have never really had my own dog except for the guard dog that my mom has one time which my cousin took care for us, he told me to just follow my heart and everything will be fine. It is the same with kids. If you have a heart you will do just fine. If you want to have kids don’t let that fear stop you. But if you don’t want kids then you really shouldn’t have one because you probably wouldn’t enjoy it.
NA, It is impossible for me to put a blanket answer on your question because all parents are different and their relationships with their kids are different and unique. Each family has a different culture and situation. Some parents have more opportunities to get to know their kids much more deeply than other parents because of many different reasons. Many parents really do not know their kids very well. And many parents do know their kids very well. I happened to be a stay at home parent and I am with my kids for so many hours. Looking at the trajectory of my son’s development I can almost say that he has a potential of raping and assaulting a woman as much as I have which is pretty much zero. I am not saying this to say that I am better or whatever. All that I am saying is that I am answering your question in the most truthful way that I can and that my unique situations allowed me to really be involved with my kids. During the first two months of the school year when I was walking my son to our car after I picked him up he pointed his classmate’s mom to me and told me with a loud voice in the most innocent way to look at how far his classmate’s mom is. I told him to be quiet and then I totally forgot about it. Then several weeks ago we were practicing on rhyming words and we encountered the word fat and he told me that just like his classmate’s mom. I had some gut feeling so I told him to promise me to never tell his classmate that his mom is fat. My son asked why in the most innocent way and I told him that sometimes it could hurt people’s feelings and I don’t want him to accidentally hurt his classmate’s feelings. The next morning I saw his classmate in the corner of the classroom crying when I picked up my son and his classmate’s face broke my heart how he didn’t want to leave that corner. I overheard the teacher talking to the boy’s mom that she talked to a few kids who were picking on the boy and I was just so glad that my son was not one of them. I always ask my son to play with that kid and be nice to the kid. The thing is I think that a parent who really knows their kid through the years would know if there is a potential for their kid to commit such a thing. Sometimes I wonder if those parents were genuinely surprised or were just covering up. I have seen stories in the news parents willfully turn a blind eye on what their kids have done. So much dishonesty from parents about who their kids really are because they really don’t care. Recently we have seen parents bribe and pay for their kids to go to college when their kids really didn’t have what it takes to be accepted. I personally think that the cognitive dissonance would be much more believable if the perpetrator is a parent than a child because parents can have a facade to their own families like Ted Bundy did whereas with children we have seen them grow and develop and we have seen a lot of their most intimate experiences as they were growing. By the time they leave our house their characters are pretty much already solid.
NA, I think that my thoughts may have gotten sidetracked and I probably didn’t fully answer your question. If Kobe was a family member, especially a son, regardless of what I said earlier about parents having some indications if their son if capable of that or not, I would naturally be extremely emotional and would hope that it isn’t true. A wife who had no indication of her husband being capable of rape would definitely have cognitive dissonance. Sometimes narcissists have Stepford wives where they are treated decently but there is a DLS and some IPSSs. Sometimes the wife is like the character of Nicole Kidman in the BLL where she believed really fast that her husband was capable of raping someone and had empathy towards the victim and her husband’s son from the rape. The Stepford wife, even though an empath I think would be less likely to believe the rape accusation. Yes Bundy’s primary source had no indication of what he was capable of (from what I believe but I could be wrong). But an empathic person will be willing to be a truth seeker and find out the truth instead of dismiss it. It is the same with kids. When a parent bribes a judge to let their kids escape accountability or pays someone to take school exams for their kids, these parents are not interested about their kids at all. When a parent rewrites history so that their kid escapes accountability, that is a red flag as well of lacking empathy. It is not unusual for family members of perpetrators to have empathy for their family members’ victims. I have seen it in the news where the family member even apologized to the victim on behalf of the perpetrator and hugs the victim and cry because actually that would be cathartic for an empathic person as well. But I acknowledge that not every empath is the same. But for a serious crime I would think that the truth seeking trait should bug most Empaths even if not immediately.
Hi Hope—I recall when the incident occurred and all I know is that it has never been (to my knowledge) publicized again. Such behaviors that is.. I do entertain it is exceedingly likely he is a narcissist, but I’ve been more thoughtful about the pain his family and those close to him are experiencing. If he was abusive to his wife the disengagement by death may be a good thing if he was treating her poorly. On the flip side, his children may have been treated quite well and their take-away may well always be great sadness. I am attempting to gain some objectivity that people (even narcissists that have hurt me)
have value to other people. Maybe it is emotional thinking, but it is also factual. Think of Reagan. A most loved man—he was friendly with my former father-in-law. (Not my last marriage but my first) Charisma, most people close loved him. It helps me with the perspective that my thoughts can include a robust exchange of views.
Lorelei- Of course you are right! Narcissist are loved and do great things for select people. I just hate seeing them worshipped when people ignore, dismiss, or overlook the destructive parts. I remember how painful it was to see the ignorant people admiring a narc who personally destroyed me while they had no idea of his darker nature. Someone said they are legends… not heroes. When others were glorifying Micheal Jackson (pedophile watch the documentary) and Kobe Bryant (rapist). I just can’t think of someone who does that as a hero, no matter what other god has been brought about because of them. My soul will not allow it. It’s really tough for me right now. Maybe one day I’ll grow and mature more emotionally but right now it’s too hard to see past, for me.
I understand Hope. My dad (for instance) was a reliable employee, interesting and bright. Excellent (more than excellent) botanist, made wine, class valedictorian, donated to others, sexually inappropriate, triangulation expert, cruel to my mother, brothers, devalued me. See??!! This is why the behavior is so absolutely baffling and others will never accept when having not been the source of abuse. EVEN when a source of abuse for the abuser, the cumulative take-away is mixed with the good. Most people don’t see in black and white. We aren’t designed to, my brothers think nothing poorly of my father. Yet we all lived in a twilight zone. In a way, I feel grateful to have “gotten” the message loud and clear. It had to get really bad to be able to understand that yes, these people are truly functioning with a different currency. The platitudes are bullshit indeed. But—those mourning need to mourn as their experiences are valid and it’s pointless to be anyway but thoughtful and so we just let them.
Sure Lorelei, people would legitimately grieve your father. People ignorant of the damage he caused and even those subjected to it yet still in denial or blissfully ignorant as your brothers are. I agree with you that people with a genuine need to grieve should be allowed to and encouraged to grieve. They may need to grieve the man—and even additionally who they thought the man was after learning who they really are in the case of realizing in adulthood after new evidence is revealed that childhood hero, that parent or “friend” was really no hero. Flawed and human. But when strangers worship Kobe or Michael—it’s different, is it not? I feel like by worshipping them even after learning of the way they raped young ladies or young boys.. that they condone and perpetuate the acceptance of that behavior in society. They don’t know these people personally. These are celebrities. Singers, performers, athletes. The people polarized against any acceptance of their true nature are not acquainted with these celebrities but defend them blindly. I hate to see lemming mentality. It scares me, honestly. Makes me lose faith in people’s ability to have sound judgment.
Hi Hope—I’m even almost grieving the thought of my father in a way. My mother’s death last week brings up many emotions. I had pictures to sort for the photo boards at her service and he is everywhere, as is his mother (I highly suspect my grandmother was mid range, although cold was “kind” to me) and of course he and all the family snap shots. It’s a reconciliation of all the bizarre and all the unusual. I’m sad for him (can’t help it), for me, for my mother. I found the wedding topper for their wedding and decided to keep it—it was real to her. He was real, just functioning with a different almost modus operandi. When I realized what he was I was quite startled, but not now. I’ve had a few months for it to sink in. I’m more peaceful and less confused. Substantially. I’m okay with having their wedding photo in my kitchen. I’m ok with stories from others about him. In fact, I laughed looking through his prize winning gardening photos. Only a proper mid ranger would go to all the trouble of growing/nurturing a million brugmansias in West Virginia each year for people to marvel at. He toiled with those damn things obsessively. Not to mention the rest of it—the best gardens, wine.. The point is that I just don’t see in all black or white. I can’t hate every element of most people. My ex-husband—I have a few moments where I can even feel compassion for how absolutely pointless much of his meandering around gathering nuggets of fuel like a squirrel gathers acorns! It’s not that I’m trying to feel that way at times, it just is. Same with Kobe or MJ or any of them. It’s just part of accepting a bigger picture. Also, to be honest, I noticed I gained a lot more mileage with a friend embroiled with a narcissist by talking about him more objectively, as not so “demonic” based on a softer (yet firm) perspective. I took narcissism out and used an absence of empathy based on his ongoing treatment of her. It’s easier for some people to think of it in this way—planting seeds etc.
Lorelei, your last bit about planting seeds is great advice. Of course I’m not going to be effective with people who already have their minds made up by antagonizing the celebrities. My tactic of shocking people into reality is just not going to work I need to realize. I just see the stark contrast so vividly and it irritates and disgusts me to see people ignorantly calling a rapist a hero and glorifying them and I react without thinking out of emotion. I don’t care if the perp doesn’t think it’s rape or how they justify it to themselves. I don’t think we should put those people on pedestals no matter what else they’ve done. No amount of right will abolish a wrong. You don’t get to rape and go on with it because you don’t see boundaries and feel entitled to do this with no one holding you accountable just as long as you pay your tax to society and are good at basketball, rich, politically powerful, or a great entertainer.
It’s so complicated when the people are close to us isn’t it? I’m so empathetic to your struggle with understanding and accepting the breadth and depth of your loss and trying to make peace with it. It must require a lot of strength to display the photo in your home and keep the memory of the wedding cake topper around. I might feel the thing demonic and the eyes in the photo too controlling. I do struggle with the whole person concept as it requires so much more emotional maturity to accept.
My mother is alive. I know she’s got issues and I couldn’t bear to subject myself to her for a long time after I escaped. Her pity players were not effective as I was still intensely angry with her. It’s been over a decade since I left home and I’m trying to have a healthy relationship. She still doesn’t acknowledge her role and will not apologize. She tried forcing me to forgive her while still not acknowledging any fault which pushed me away and hurt me greatly which she ignored. I’ve allowed myself to pity her to a degree, as she is aging, in order to allow the relationship to manifest at a comfortable level. We talk once a week and it’s benign at this point. I do feel guilty about talking to her because I’m making myself vulnerable to her influence but it’s hard to cut her out like an ex-boyfriend. It’s hard to demonize her even if she may have toxic behaviors, while she is benign. I feel guilty wondering if my life will be easier when she’s dead and there’s no more narcs in my life. I’ve always operated from an all or nothing mentality and it’s so hard for me to set boundaries and enforce them.
You are stronger than me. In your ability to allow that influence in your space even after the passing. It’s easier with more distant relatives. I love my grandpa and grandma so much who have passed. My grandpa did have issues with anger and control but I had always blamed his declining health, blind to his narcissism. He got short with us and was hard to predict his reaction or mood—but he never was too harmful to us directly. He also was generous, more so than our own parents. Now that he’s gone, and my mom started her painful stories about him lacking empathy with me, I don’t find a problem with pictures of him but the only one on display is me giving my grandma a hug. It mashed me feel so warm inside to remember this moment. She was a self-sacrificing empath to the last day, even in her pain. She had anxiety, depression, and was prone to complain about people to other people rather than address them directly but I felt her complaints were justified and other people did not respect her desires or boundaries. I’m so emotional that I’m trying to only have things in my space that make me feel good. Things hold energy and I don’t want any negative energy. For you to be able to change the energy of things by making peace with them is really amazing to me. Both my parents have issues. I keep my grandma up but they would be confined to an album that can be shot like a book and placed on a shelf or in a storage bin. I have a picture of the entire family but it gives me mixed feelings and I don’t like to look at it the save way I enjoy my grandma’s picture. I have it mainly to explain to guests who my family is and I do like some of my siblings who always feel safe for my heart.
Yes planting seeds and watching how I say things is important. For example.. My close friend’s boyfriend got caught cheating again this week. It doesn’t help to say, “He doesn’t love you and never has.” **The cognitive empathy he displays makes this concept impossible for now. Indicating a lack of empathy for her as evidenced by his repeated behavior—almost irrefutable. It “clicks”—and I also indicated that he doesn’t mean to just hurt her. He is acting instinctively and doesn’t understand why he does what he does. He isn’t lying when he tells her he doesn’t know why he cheats. It takes the demon out of it, it allows an open discussion and doesn’t turn people off so sharply. My father truly thought he was a good person and did good things coupled with the narcissism that compelled the awful stuff. Those are facts. His mark on this earth is not 100% awful. The wedding topper is special because my family is special, and is the result of that union. Bad, good.. It’s just a new knowledge and I’m processing it all. I have two friends that will be with me next Wednesday when I travel to sort photos again, to unravel my mother’s life which is very hard to do. My father’s memory is everywhere and yes—I can’t help but laugh about the damn tropical shit he grew everywhere. He could be hilarious and great fun. I am really coming to terms with just knowing that “I kinda get it” now. Same with my ex. He’s feeling increasingly rudimentary these days. He is much more often appearing so lost to me that the anger is decreasing. I’m not straddling forgiveness at all—just knowledge. I know what diabetes is—I don’t feel emotion toward it. I was upset briefly that even his empathic mother didn’t reach out to my kids to say one word about them losing their grandmother. Evidence to the strength of a smear campaign. I took a deep breath and moved on. In fact, he hasn’t seen them for nearly two weeks due to his business travel and the funeral and has not one time called them! Incredible. I didn’t travel until my youngest was maybe 5. I also nearly lost it being gone that week and I historically am “on the go” quite a bit. Narcissists just don’t have the connections. Their are subtle signs in the behavior. MM—leaving a baby in another country or whatever she did. Absolutely not as it wasn’t necessary. It’s not normal behavior. Kobe—the sex thing.. Not the behavior of an empath for sure to ejaculate in a woman’s face during a random encounter. But we drive wedges if we are too prescriptive with the information. It sounds like you are looking at family dynamics in a manner to make sense of it as well. I think it ends up being the case for a lot of us.
Hi Hope,
In my opinion you had every right to bring that up. This is a blog about narcissists and narcissism and we are trying to learn about them and what they do. You had really good points on why Kobe might be a narcissist and you were not out of line to bring those up in a blog about narcissists. It wasn’t like you went to his funeral and told his family that he was a rapist and a narcissist. And as for their grieving, I understand that as well but I highly doubt that his family reads our comments here at Narcsite. My mom was a narcissist and died last July and I was empathic to my cousins that she physically and verbally abused and even have had their lives heavily damaged financially by using personal information that she had against them. If Kobe’s wife is empathic, she will have empathy towards his rape victim in one form or another and she will not be offended by that fact of rape being brought up because her empathy will make her understand. Of course it is a different case if the clear motive for bringing it up is to hurt and shame his widow and children but clearly you were focused on his behaviors and you were not including them.
MP—I never said she had no right to bring it up—we were having a fine discussion without you. In fact, I said he may well be a narcissist. His accuser never testified against him. We don’t know for sure what exactly happened. I also don’t easily peg people for narcissism and this has been a very respectful conversation between the two of us.
I never said that you did Lorelei. I did not even read what you wrote. I was responding to what she wrote:
Maybe one day I’ll grow and mature more emotionally but right now it’s too hard to see past, for me.
I was trying to tell her to not be hard on herself.
I don’t think it is unusual here at the blog for other people to chime in conversations.
I also commented because I could relate strongly to what Hope was talking about and I didn’t want her to think that she did something wrong. A lot of what she said resonated with me. I can understand the frustration she felt to have people almost rewrite history about a person who died because of emotional thinking. Facts are facts but they are often overlooked because of emotional thinking and because of this the real victim often feels re victimized and feel very lonely and isolated.
I didn’t attempt to make her feel bad. We had a nice discussion. The real fact is that a 13 year old girl died with her dad, and a woman is left with three daughters to raise alone. Kobe being a narcissist is fine to toss around—but I doubt it’s a concern of his wife or the family/friends right now. You take issue because you dislike me—you can’t let it go. I actually think you are a good mom, an interesting woman. I am not commenting on your posts though to invite “this.”
There is no “this”. I didn’t think that you or anyone made her feel bad. I have only read Hope’s and Zielum’s posts. I thought that Hope was feeling guilt which in my opinion she shouldn’t have. I felt bad for his wife losing a young daughter and a husband and her kids losing a dad and a sister. But I don’t think that they read this blog and care if people think that he is a narcissist or not. I don’t think that it affects their grieving especially since it was not being said to them. I also believe that they are used to being a public figure and they are aware of that history of their dad. Kobe’s narcissism isn’t lightly being tossed around. It was brought up in a blog about narcissism and was supported with valid arguments. I didn’t post because I dislike you, I posted because I agreed with Hope and I don’t want her to think that it is immature to point out ‘the other side of the story’ about a celebrated public figure who raped and strangled someone. Thank you for your compliments, I think you’re also a good mom and an interesting person. I disliked you because of what has transpired between us but I do not think about that anymore.
Thank you for your comments mommypino. I don’t feel you are intruding and I do feel this is an open forum for a reason. To invite all comments. I welcome your insights as well as those harder to swallow. The more we discuss the more we become aware of and learn.
Thank you Hope. I could understand Lorelei’s reaction but that wasn’t my intent. I was focused on what you have said and I was triggered by a lot of what you have said because I have seen this so many times in Hollywood and in politics. Even in my home country. Nobody cares about the victims until sometimes you just hear about them committing suicide or having a very difficult life mired with depression and drugs to cope. I was thinking it must be feel incredibly worthless, isolated and invalidated to be victimized by someone that a lot of people idolize and love.
@zielum
“The description of events sounded like a tame CNC (consensual non-consent) kink scene. If that’s the kind of sex he’s used to engaging in, he may not have thought to consider that not everyone’s into it and a “no” really would mean “no”.”
He only just met the girl, it doesn’t matter what he is used to. She clearly wanted to leave and rejected him, at which point he should have stopped. What the hell has “kink” got to do with it?
Your comments are completely senseless
Witch,
I made my case as clearly as I could. Others have acknowledged that even if they disagree, they see my points. If you cannot make sense of my viewpoint, I suggest either reading more carefully, or moving on to something you can make sense of.
@Zielum
Others were far too generous in my opinion.
Your views on the victims statement was stupid.
If she said no more than once and rejected the rapist, and was crying at that, then there was no reason for him to confused. Your comments were trash.
Witch,
I agree that the childishly ignorant would find my comments as such, yes. I find that this is a rather forgiving forum, so feel free to continue venting. We’ll be patient.
Or maybe just people who actually feel empathy and don’t agree with allying with a rapist
Witch,
So sentences of guilty and not guilty should be passed on the grounds of emotional thinking? Those of us who lack empathy are incapable of fairly weighing in on a trial? If anything, I’d say the opposite is true.
Can you please point out where I ever allied with Kobe? You must have missed the several prominent statements I made conveying that I am not passing judgement; on whether I, myself, think he did or did not intend to harm. I was merely bringing up an alternative possibility to the apparent consensus. Food for thought, you know?
I don’t want to get involved with the CNC debate anymore as I have already agreed to disagree.
But I just want to say about a different topic that I don’t think that empathy and emotional thinking is the same. Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t think that HG is teaching us that empathy is emotional thinking. My interpretation of emotional thinking is when logic gets highjacked by emotions. But we can still have empathy or other emotions but make a conscious choice to act on what is logically best for us so we can still have empathy without succumbing to emotional thinking.
mommypino,
Mm….possibly? If I make any decisions while feeling any emotions, I consider that emotional thinking. I generally have some sort of flat affect going on and I can’t feel much besides anxiety and anger (and their forms). But, I recognize that the way I process emotions is different than typical, so I’m gonna say that you’re probably right about HG’s intent with emotional thinking vs. having empathy.
I’m reading what I just wrote and Idk if I’m conveying what I mean right lol maybe I don’t quite understand the difference myself. Wouldn’t having empathy be like having emotions…well, I have cognitive empathy, and that doesn’t feel *too* emotional, but considering that’s also the only way I experience pleasant stuff, it seems related. It’s based in my head. But affective/somatic empathy…isn’t the definition of those, that you feel emotions?
Or maybe I’m just not seeing where logic could override emotions…
I haven’t had my morning nicotine yet. I think my brain’s a little jumbled right now lol.
Hi Zielum, thanks for your honest reply. I am not familiar with your story. I’m sorry if this is intrusive but you don’t have to answer me if it feels intrusive to you but you said that you only have cognitive empathy so that means you’re not an empath or a normal, are you in the Cluster B category then?
Also how are you sure that the empathy that you have is only cognitive? Have you had a formal assessment?
Personally I think that emotions can cloud judgment but it is only bad if the narcissistic trait is hijacking the empathic traits. For example, if the judge of the rape case is a friend of the accused (although in real life the judge would normally recluse himself, for my example let’s pretend that for some reason he’s the only judge who can preside). If he has real empathy, he would feel empathy towards the accused who is his friend but he will have cognitive empathy towards the rape victim, and if he is really empathic, he will even ‘feel’ real empathy for the victim and his empathy for his friend will be mixed with feelings of betrayal, disappointment, anger, etc. So he will have really difficult and very complicated feelings. However, his training as a judge should give him enough mental recognition of what the laws are and if his friend is really guilty or not. If his empathic trait of love and loyalty to his friend is hijacked by selfishness wherein he will put himself (his feelings) above the rape victim’s right to justice then it will cloud his judgment and make him favor his friend and the justice will be denied to the victim. If he is able to tame or control his narcissistic trait of selfishness and follow the law in spite of hurting for his friend then he didn’t allow his narcissistic trait of selfishness to hijack his empathic trait and he decided that in spite of all of his complicated emotions he will not allow himself to decide with Emotional Thinking. Instead he logically and consciously controlled his feelings in order to follow the law and bring justice.
mommypino,
My story’s long and I hashed a lot of it out on another thread, so I’ll try to keep it brief here–
Yes, I am within Cluster B. I’m not entirely positive which one for sure, but from what I can gather, I’ve got traits of several and then I think my main one is vulnerable narcissism. I’m not sure where that fits into HG’s classification of narcissists. Up until two ish years ago, I had a “good guy” false self–truly believed that was me. Really resembled BPD, mood swings and all. But something happened, I still don’t know what, but somewhere during self-introspection, most of my emotions fell away. I remember what they felt like, so I can compare my cognitive empathy to what passed as somatic/affective empathy (though it was always, ultimately, self-serving, in retrospect). Now I pretty much only ever feel negative ones–irritability, anger, anxiety, frustration, envy. Everything else is cognitive–more thought than feeling.
I use Internet forums such as this and others for fuel, to use HG’s terminology. I’m not malicious and generally don’t try to pick fights, but civil contrary discussions allow for the greatest satisfying back-and-forth interaction. I’m a bit of a hermit in real life, with few friends or people to be around, so I use these as an outlet and prop for self-esteem regulation. With the vulnerable part, I’m much more hypersensitive to things than I would like; I’m working on that.
Despite not being malicious, I no longer kid myself that I’m a “good guy” with the best of intentions. I can analyze my own actions and motivations in a much more objective sense now, and again, they’re largely self-serving.
I also don’t have a…traditional set of morals. It might be more of an antisocial trait, I’m not sure. I believe all morals are subjective and therefore, they can change depending on whose perspective you take. I do understand that most people don’t see it that way; I work within society as best I can, but it makes for few people being able to relate. It is what it is.
I understand what you describe with emotional empathy, and the tough choices a judge would have to make depending on their loyalties and predisposition. I don’t disagree.
Zielum, thanks for your honest responses. I love reading and learning about new things. There is no vulnerable narcissist. I think that it will serve you well to do a consultation with HG to identify what you are. You can ask him what kind of consult would be best. I wonder if you are not really a Cluster B and if you are just going through some massive trauma. The reason is because you don’t seem to seek negative fuel. I am looking forward to reading more from you around here.
mommypino,
Thank you, and likewise.
If I may ask; why are you of the opinion that there is no vulnerable narcissism? I’m on neither the offensive, nor defensive. I’ve been hardcore researching and self-introspecting for the past two years, so I welcome any new theories. That said, while HG’s work is highly illuminating and beneficial, there are a myriad of alternative conceptualizations of PD’s out there. I don’t personally feel anyone’s got the entirely correct version yet. I’ve read and listened to a great deal of HG’s work, but far from all of it. Does he specifically address the concept of vulnerable narcissism, and if so, where, so I can read it? This is, of course, taking into consideration that vulnerable narcissism is not yet a diagnosis in the DSM or other literature. The DSM diagnostic criteria mostly describes a grandiose narcissist. However, vulnerable narcissism is being widely discussed as a real-world phenomenon that deserves further research.
On that note…I think all four Custer B’s have to do with flavors of attention-seeking, with ASPD being a “giving up”/rejection of continued attention-seeking behaviors due to whatever childhood response to failed attempts. All four received inadequate caregiver attention as children, and all four developed specialized coping mechanisms to either receive or reject necessary attention.
I do not seek negative fuel where outnumbered. I do not seek negative fuel where I’m not in control of the environment or outcome. I do not seek negative fuel when I haven’t been slighted and am still receiving positive fuel. Outside of the Internet, I am not adept enough at procuring back-ups to risk my situation with negative fuel obtainment. I mentioned before on here that I still live with my ex, who has narc traits. When angered, he is an adversary I have to reckon with; should he follow through, he is in a position to keep me from my kids, forever. That is not an acceptable outcome. And he’s a touchy guy. While not the most ideal situation, I am advancing greatly in the art of playing nice to get what I want.
I had a traumatic early childhood, as most Cluster B’s have. Nothing since I moved away from home ten years ago.
Z
HG’s model includes a Victim Narcissist (cadre not school). You can read about them in Sitting Target to determine if it is in line with what you mean by a Vulnerable Narcissist.
NarcAngel,
You’re absolutely right. I completely forgot about the victim narcissist.
I’m re-reading the section on the different schools and cadre in “Revenge”. Regarding the schools, I feel confident placing my current self as a Mid-Ranger. At the same time, the Victim variety appears to only apply to Lessers.
Up until self-awareness two ish years ago, I could definitely say I was a Lesser Victim Narcissist. Zero awareness, “good guy” false self (“I’m such a good, kind, caring person–why can’t any of these idiots see that?”), no ability to get what I wanted except through pity and patheticness.
Now, I’ve seen through and lost the “good guy” false self, and most of the victimhood mentality. I’m working my ass off to cover up any feeling of vulnerability as it happens, cause that’s when the “woe is me” shit likes to come back. I don’t really know what cadre I’d be in now….I mean, I guess cerebral would be the closest, though I think of people waaaay smarter than myself being in that category, so Idk.
HG says there’s no way to change schools, but I don’t know how else to explain what happened. Even using outside terminology doesn’t help–How do you switch from appearing like one disorder (BPD) to appearing like another (vulnerable NPD, Schizoid, etc.).
Either I’m completely missing something, or no current classification system really covers every scenario, or…Idk.
So yeah…Idk where that would put me as far as HG’s system. Maybe I’m still evolving and I haven’t reached my final form yet, lolz.
“ I do not seek negative fuel where outnumbered. I do not seek negative fuel where I’m not in control of the environment or outcome. I do not seek negative fuel when I haven’t been slighted and am still receiving positive fuel.”
Hi Zielum,
Those are some of the reasons that I don’t think that you are a narcissist. Although I can understand that higher functioning narcissists can identify situations where seeking negative fuel will not result in a positive outcome for them such as when they are outnumbered or not in control of the environment. But they still seek negative fuel even when they were not slighted. Negative fuel is more potent than positive fuel. So if the supply hasn’t slighted the narcissist but has become stale then the potency of the positive fuel will not be strong enough so the narcissist starts to seek negative fuel from them.
Also you do introspection which narcissists do not. A Greater has the ability to recognize what is going on and their part in the dynamic and unlike the Mid-Rangers, they are not under any delusions that they are good people. But even Greaters do not do self introspection in my opinion. Self introspection is possible when someone is capable of accountability. A narcissist who is aware can recognize that they are treating the person horribly for fuel and are aware of their manipulations but are not interested in introspection unless it is for making themselves more effective or it unless it serves them. HG will correct me if I am wrong.
Your dynamic with your ex that you at living with also shows that you are most likely not a narcissist because you control and fuel are not your top concerns.
I remember HG answering a commenter that there are no vulnerable narcissists. I can’t remember which article that was though. I have read some articles regarding vulnerable narcissists and my problem with them is that they do not go deep enough to the core that an empath or a normal who is going through a narcissistic phase after an abuse might read it and think that they are vulnerable narcissists. The vulnerable narcissists described in those articles have a lot of similarities with Victim cadre narcissists and even Mid Rangers. Except that HG goes much more in depth as to why they are behaving that way. When I read the traits of vulnerable narcissists in the articles, I see some of those traits both in my Victim Middle Lesser mom and Elite Middle Mid-Range half sister but neither of them have all of the traits enumerated in the vulnerable narcissists. However HG’s description of a Victim cadre and Middle Lesser school fits my mom to a tee and all of the traits described by HG regarding an Elite cadre under the Middle MR school also fits my sister to a tee.
Zielum, I just want to add that that is how I personallu understand empathy and when it becomes hijacked.
@zielum
There’s a difference between expressing an argument with emotion and emotional thinking. Of course in court, he’s entitled to a fair trial with a defence. The defence’s argument can be as improbable as it wants.
You brought up that the victims statement sounds like a “kink” scenario and that maybe Kobe was used to engaging in this type of sexual activity and therefore misread the signs and did not intend harm.
And I’m saying his consensual sexual history and what he happens to be interested in is irrelevant, because if the victims statement is true it describes forced sex which is rape. It doesn’t matter if he’s not used to “vanilla” or not used to women rejecting him.
If she was trying to leave the room and resisted him he should have stopped. You don’t just come on to someone you’ve just met and assume they want to engage in a rape scenario and not take their resistance seriously. What’s more probable based on her statement, is that she resisted, he didn’t care, he wanted what he wanted (sex and control) and he took it without considering her and then told her several times not to tell anyone, because he knew he crossed a boundary.
Witch,
I agree that your scenario is the most probable.
In my first comment on the subject, I explained that I was exploring Kobe’s claim of innocence. Something like this:
Since we don’t have all the facts,
It’s not 100% certain he intended harm;
*If* he didn’t intend harm,
What are the scenarios where that makes any logical sense at all?
And as I stated, pretty much the only thing that makes any bit of sense is the kink thing. I can’t imagine any other argument that explains how he couldn’t realize he was raping her (well I guess mentally handicapped in some way, but we can rule that out since he functions fine any other time).
Is the kink scenario highly unlikely? Yes. Does that make it impossible? No.
Do I have any skin in the game and care either way? No. I just like debates and thought exercises.
I also just have a pet peeve of people claiming something is 100% certain when it isn’t. I think it stems from my atheistic exasperation with theists, and from there, my frustration in political arguments where people claim their side is correct and righteous when clearly, that’s only a matter of perspective.
People being unable/unwilling to even give the other side a fair listen is a tale as old as time. Always gives me the urge to butt in lol
@zielum
It’s possible that he didn’t care whether or not it was rape/harmful or pleasurable for her, especially if he was a narcissist all he would care for is power and control, if she consents or not is irrelevant to some narcissists.
Some of them will push you to the point that you “consent” after being emotionally worn down.
We will never know for certain what occurred. Just like when people come on narcsite and say “the narc did this or that” we will never know for certain it happened, but it’s likely that it did.
He also lied initially and said they didn’t sleep together. His response didn’t indicate to me that he was surprised/hurt by the allegation because it definitely didn’t happen, but more that he was trying to cover it up all together because he knew something went “wrong.”
Going straight in for rough sex/choking indicates a lack of empathy and strong sense of entitlement, he didn’t use a condom, lack of empathy/strong sense of entitlement/lack of accountability, he’s cheating on his wife, lack of empathy, entitlement, triangulation.
I skimmed his response quickly so this may not be entirely accurate but it’s probably close enough
He never did that with his wife. He only did it with a specific side chick he named. He’s not used to it in the sense he can’t see both sides or soft hearts as he shifts gears all the time never once slipping and picking his wife that way as he proudly declared.
The other woman, I think Michelle, was another red flag for me. He said that they have a lot of sex regularly and she does those things with him that his wife probably wouldn’t be willing to do. It sounded to me like Michelle was his Dirty Little Secret. He probably had a lot of Intimate Tertiary source because of his celebrity status but that is just my guess.
Stupid autocorrect/swipe to text. I meant to say (in caps):
He never did that with his wife. He only did it with a specific side chick he named. He’s not used to it in the sense he can’t see both sides or SWITCH GEARS as he shifts gears all the time— never once slipping and FUCKING his wife that way as he proudly declared.
@hope
In my opinion it’s completely irrelevant whether or not Kobe engaged in “kink” outside of this incident.
If the victims statement is correct, then he purposely forced himself on her. She resisted and he continue to forcibly penetrate her. That is rape. I don’t need to consider his perspective which is most likely some bullshit
Agreed. It’s funny how he thinks this helps. It further exposes his ass in my opinion.
Hope,
Meaning?
Hope,
That’s true. Even the counterpoint I have at the ready (expectations tend to be different within different scenarios) is weak against it. It does seem likely that he had the experience to know when to go for it and when to back off.
Do we know for sure he never did that with his wife? His response singling out the side piece does imply it, but I wonder if there was a statement made anywhere in the case about it?
You would make a good judge Zielum. You want facts and don’t get personally invested or emotional. You would be perfect to do the job by the book effectively. I’d have to read the article again I was remembering how he was trying to explain himself by saying I do this with X as if he never did it with his wife otherwise why bring up X and further implicated yourself in more infidelity besides? I was connecting the dots that may not have been explicitly laid out. I am intuitive and emotional. I want justice from my point of view. I don’t think the law or judges prove anything really other than legalities. They teach us never to let a victim really on the courts to vindicate them, they must start healing now! The likelihood of cases gone to trial to actually serve the victim justice are so free it’s insane. They drag on for years and often never get a conviction. Does that mean out of millions of victims that only .02 of them were raped because that’s what the courts decided? Hell no. I don’t base my opinion on the opinion of the court. How many people raped have witnesses willing to testify? How many have video recordings? How many have evidence collected before they shower? Almost none and guess what—even if you have all three you still aren’t guaranteed a conviction. To boot, your past is drug up and you’re convicted for collateral misconduct such as underage drinking or fraternization. There’s a ton of reasons why court decisions aren’t the be all end all to prove actual innocence or guilt. It’s only based on the evidence provided and other legalities and things. That’s why they tell you if you fight a ticket even if you’re guilty you’re likely to get off. I don’t understand why people keep bringing up settlements like it proves innocence. They are so innocent they were reported, went to court, and paid millions of dollars in fines? Unlikely. Some people do go to prison who are innocent. Some do settle to avoid jail when innocent. These are usually poor people who don’t understand the system, are easily intimidated, and are full of fear. I think rich celebrities have the resources to avoid false convictions and in these cases of Kobe and Michael it’s not a lazy cop trying to close a case like in the Central Park case which is truly tragic. There are witnesses and collaborating evidence. I highly doubt you can have the wrong guy in those cases. Oops, I thought it was Kobe or Michael but no it was an impersonator with equal wealth and influence. LOL. Hard to pin the wrong guy when it’s a celebrity.
You should of course! And share,so we can like and comment.And dont listen to the other girls,they’re just jealous!
Yes, be ready.The sensitive pictures, the fun video you thought was private will be used against you, any sensitive issue you told in private will not be private. If you decide to do photos or videos wear a wig and shades.
By “shades,” I take it you mean lampshades . . . .
Haha nice one lisk
This actually gives me serious pause for thought that – perhaps my first boyfriend was a narcissist. And perhaps that I have never even had a relationship with a non-narcissist.
HG – out of curiosity, did you create this assistance package in response to level of actual occurrence or in response to the level of concern surrounding this type of incident?
Hello WC, very good point. Yes, I created it because it is a common question that I get asked. People ask whether the nude pictures/sex videos will be disclosed, or whether sensitive information will be used against them frequently. Many people who have an involvement with a narcissist will disclose/provide to the narcissist so much sensitive information about themselves that is very important to understand why this is acquired, the level of risk and how the risk will manifest. It is a high incidence AP.
That is reassuring. Thank-you for your detailed answer.
You are welcome.
It’s the same fear I have about me and my narc…infact I’ve just purchased the Bulletin and I’m waiting for it to arrive
Ya, make sure they’re beautiful if you’re gonna do it!!
Or cover or crop out the face.
Why?
I was joking.
But honestly, I don’t think it is wise to give anyone nude pictures of you if you feel that you would be ashamed for anyone else seeing it. You just really can’t control where it might end up. That’s for me personally. But if someone is comfortable or confident enough to not feel anything bad about their nude pictures being seen without their consent then go for it. My husband had a narcissist best friend who texted him a nude picture of his girlfriend and my husband said why? He showed it to me shaking his head and saying that his former best friend is an idiot then deleted it. I think my husband’s former best friend was showing off his girlfriend (objectification). They’re not close anymore because my husband said that their friendship has been all about that guy and he just got tired of it. They just met for lunch so that my husband could refer his son in law who is selling medical devices. I just think that it’s really hard to control what someone could do to things like that and I have heard stories of many victims of that kind of situation and I feel really bad for them.
MommyPino, I was very naive when it came to this kind of thing. Also I didn’t have a clue what a narcissist was. Lessons learned in the past 8 years. Very hard lessons.
Hi Mercy,
I’m sorry that happened to you. Although thankfully people now have been less judgmental over this kind of stuff and they are now understanding that women are the victims of this.
I think for me it’s one of the silver linings of having an overbearing protective overwhelming angle middle Lesser mom. She has drilled into my head for as early in my childhood as I can remember that men are the devil. Just like how Bobby Butcher’s mom drilled into him that foosball is the devil. My mom has told me different kinds of scenarios on how men betray women including similar schematics to this. I think that she didn’t want me to ever get married so that I would live with her forever.
Sorry I have too many typos because of autocorrect:
*overwhelming angel
*Bobby Boucher
*similar situations
MommyPino, My parents were over protective too but not like that. Couldn’t have friends with the opposite sex, dating was chaperoned until marriage, you didn’t date unless you were looking for a husband, sex was never talked about. Ever! It was too many rules for me so I left home at an early age and learned all the hard lessons on my own. I think your mom tried to scare lessons into you. Mine wanted to pretend they didn’t exist.
Mercy, I don’t think that she tried to scare lessons into me. I don’t think that she had any rhyme or reason for the way she behaved aside from the fact that she was a Lesser Narcissist who acted on pure instincts to achieve control over me and each situation. In so many ways I had to grow up faster than most kids my age and tried to teach myself lessons and tried very hard to teach her lessons as well which never worked. Her way of teaching me lessons was not just scaring them into me but also shaming me like calling me a whore I think as early as 3 or 4 years old and telling me that I’m an idiot when I disagreed with her. There was also physics violence in which afterwards she seemed to feel sorry for sitting by me and looking at all of my bruises and putting ice on them and telling me in a a very remorseful voice that she wished I would just obey her so that she doesn’t get mad at me and hurt me. She said that parents sho love their kids have to hurt their kids to make sure that we turn out good. But one thing that I was very lucky and grateful about was that she really made sure that nothing bad happened to me and that I was getting my education, I think mostly because my dad who was my mom’s only source of money always wrote letters asking for my pictures and grades and stories about me and how I was performing in school. But I think that she also wanted to be a good parent but just didn’t know how to. I often fantasized of running away but wasn’t able to do it because it would make my dad choose to support me financially instead of her and my empathy as a child and also wrongfully feeling respond for her wellbeing because of my love for her made me stay because she was not capable of getting or holding any job. So I stayed with her until I was 26 and sacrificed a lot of my life by making that choice. When I moved here in the US my dad wanted to stop sending her money and I asked him to continue because of her inability support herself and he did continue to send her money because of my request. I never told him how abusive she was until when I was 26. It is a fact that a lot of abused children feel responsible for protecting their parents and that’s how I was.
Mercy, I bet most of the women here who have dated narcissist, have been secretly filmed. I know i have.
Anm, you’re probably right. Before cell phones and online dating I briefly dated a guy who worked security. I found out years later that he had a hidden camera and filmed me. You just never know.
I once had a male friend show me nude pictures of his ex-girlfriends on his phone. He had this endless gallery of them and kept zooming in.
He was also friends with a photographer that I had worked with and that had kept asking me if I was interested in doing a nude photoshoot with him.
When I told him no, he would tell me how I “won’t be young and look like this forever” and that once I got older, I would regret declining his offer.
It made me extremely uncomfortable but I never gave in and after this other guy showed my his private collection, I was relieved that I stuck to my guns.
Hi Desirée, What you shared is so true. I used to do part time commercial modeling when I was 15-16 yrs old and so many photographers say the same thing to me and other young models. At that age if I didn’t have my mom guarding me there’s a possibility that I may have bought that bullshit.
MP
I do understand. I’m not ashamed of any of my pictures except the technically bad ones and those are never, ever shared.
I am concerned that they could be used against me but they are out now.
Cogra002
Always am lovely.
I like to think of myself as my own ponographer. I’ve published in my time, very many pictures of myself.
I am an excellent photographer. Been taking pictures and printing them myself since about 11..I understand concepts such as depth of field, aperture and shutter control and of course, the old favourite, converging verticals..
I’ve also dabbled in my time at astro photography. Highly not recommend unless you are a masochist.
Lol yes!