Is It Love?
The narcissist sweeps you away in the beginning.
The narcissist cares and supports you.
Is it love?
Whether a romantic or familial situation with the narcissist, the narcissist behaves in so many ways which cause you to believe that he or she loves you, but is it the case?
- Does the narcissist love?
- Can the narcissist begin by loving you and then it fades?
- Can the narcissist learn to love you?
- Does the narcissist have his or her own way of loving you?
- What is love based on?
- Why does the narcissist´s behaviour cause you to believe you are being loved?
- If it is not love from the narcissist what is it?
- If it is not love from the narcissist, what are you seeing when you are being seduced?
- How can you understand whether it is love or not?
Understanding “Is It Love” will enable you to tackle emotional thinking and make sense of the behaviour of the narcissist towards you and this Logic Bulletin addresses key information to answer those questions that occupy your thoughts.Use it also as part of your Future Protection against being caught again, either by the existing narcissist or a new one.
Sharpen your Logic Defences and recognise how infatuation manifests in the mind of the narcissist with these intriguing portrayals. Use your acquired knowledge and narc craft to ascertain who the narcissist is infatuated with and what school of narcissist is infatuated.
168 thoughts on “Is It Love?”
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A couple of years ago, on VD, my Upper Loser posted a poem on social media that I, stupid hopeless romantic, thought was dedicated to me; it was something about loving someone though they were apart but still thinking of her. Now I am sure it was dedicated to me. And to her. And her. And that other her. And maybe him too. To any appliance that could feel identified with the damned poem.
Sweet P:
There’s a wonderful scene in Merry Wives when Mistress Ford and Mistress Page compare Falstaff’s love notes and discover the same thing. Technology has only altered the method.
Yep! Exactly the same. I also think all the time of the aria in Don Giovanni,”Madamina, il catalogo è questo.” That’s my Upper Loser right there, I bet he got excited to score a nationality he didn’t have yet in his harem when he ensnared me.
I loved it! We are so brainwashed what love is supposed to be!
And nobody so far has described with such an accuracy what love is actually, except HG !
Today HG, I was listening and smiling . I was thinking about the 3 man in my life that made a significant impact what I am now, one by one :
1. My father – what love actually is. IM
2. My ex – what false love is , or shall I say – what a lack of real love is . The grand gestures – even I can laugh now remembering his facial expression after announcing “ See, I bought you this!” “ How many people will buy their wives this and that”?
3. You – the online stranger who is doing marvellous job helping people and who helped me enormously to restore my inner peace.
So the negative impact from p. 2 was washed away like the the huge waves swept away my favourite Sydney beach during the storms at the weekend.
Thank you, HG!
You are welcome Claire.
I don’t understand. If narc love is infatuation and infatuation is narc ET and power, anger, and fear is essentially the entire narc emotional spectrum…what emotions make up infatuation for a narc? What does narc infatuation feel like to a narc? What really confuses me is how the mid and lessers don’t know is not love. They think it’s love. So what is love that’s false love? How does it feel and look? If narcs don’t evolve or progress along the spectrum, how could you know? You just have the same feelings as well as the insight to understand the distance between what you feel love is and what love really is?
I see the fascination in the examples provided. Is it just admiration and fascination? Seeing a fancy object and wanting to possess it? Wanting to be associated with it? Sort of like watching the new promo for a Lamborghini, admiring it, stalking it, possessing it, and soaking in all the envy once obtained? I love my things too though. My truck. I feel love for objects at times. I wonder if..hmm. I don’t feel empathy for my truck. So I can’t love it. Hmm. Maybe I understand your love now…
I felt intense infatuation in my prior entanglements with narcs. It felt like love mixed with obsession. It was like feeling love but also feeling dependent on or connected to the feelings of the N. For example, I always loved, but was hypersensitive to how he was feeling and if he felt distant or disconnected. I was highly reactive to any change in his behavior or attitude. It gave me anxiety and distress to see any negative changes especially when I felt powerless to influence no matter what I did. The infatuation was warm love, fascination, gratitude and a feeling of being so lucky and also possessive. Wanting to keep this lovely secret all to myself knowing that all the magnificence I acknowledged wasn’t immediately evident to others (love/narc addition goggles) but I felt could be easily discovered when offered perspective and proximity. I felt uniquely competent to love better and deeper than I believed anyone else could and therefore qualified and best suited to appreciate the N to the fullest extent possible. I also thought he’d realize how lucky he was to have someone with my capacity for love.
Hope
You may find these comments helpful.
Lou says:
August 3, 2018 at 15:25
HG, I was wondering, when you are high in positive fuel, like when you are in the infatuation stage, aren’t you kind of happy? Isn’t that stage kind of euphoric for you and therefore there is an element of happiness in it.
HG Tudor says:
August 4, 2018 at 12:38
No, but it may well look like happiness but it is not, it is power.
Lou says:
August 4, 2018 at 15:19
Thanks HG. So when you are convinced the new person is the One, the fountain of eternal fuel, the end of the quest, all there is is hope and excitement but not happiness, correct?
HG Tudor says:
August 5, 2018 at 11:10
There is infatuation and the power from the fuel.
https://narcsite.com/2018/07/30/dolus-malus-prologue/
Perfectly imperfect says:
January 15, 2019 at 12:21
They believe that saying they love you is true but it’s really a lie?
HG Tudor says:
January 15, 2019 at 13:34
Yes because we are incapable of loving.
https://narcsite.com/2019/01/15/bridging-the-gap-2/
Hope
This thread is very good.
HG Tudor says:
December 13, 2019 at 16:54
No, non-narcissists do not engage in infatuation.
https://narcsite.com/2019/12/11/infatuation-11/
I know HG stated in this post that non-narcissists don’t engage in infatuation, but I feel that I have absolutely. Or was it a draw to a narcissist that I interpreted as infatuation? (like was it deeper than “infatuation”–that empath/narc thing..) I can remember several people I was really drawn to, two men that I was never romantically linked to but I am curious if it was a narcissist-oriented dynamic. One was absolutely a narcissist–the other who knows but quite likely based on some things I am aware of.
Lorelei
I will sum it up nicely for you: You are an addict, like me, and it’s your addiction to the narcissist aided and abetted by ET.
I wonder what HG’s opinion is on just a really strong lure to someone such as the prior almost infatuation inexperienced.. It’s been a really long time. I was not under Botox treatment at the time. I’ve matured away from this perhaps—but it was really unusual. I didn’t do anything weird—it was more a feeling of interest, spending time with etc. I certainly didn’t change behaviors or anything—just found these two people more interesting than would seem normal.
Lorelei
If you were attracted to them, then there’s a strong possibility that those two individuals were narcissists. You are a Narc Magnet!
I get infatuated. For sure. Isn’t that why we ignore red flags? Isn’t that why we endure black flags? Isn’t that the addiction? I feel like I’m in love as well as I am all to willing to self-sacrifice but I am also assuming too much and attracting myself to the idea of what we could become. The potential.
Google says:
Infatuation is a moment of getting carried away by a toxic and addictive love, and it usually happens at the start of a relationship while the sexual attraction is strong. On the other hand, love is feeling a strong sense of affection for someone else. Love is more of an emotion.
I also read infatuation chemical addiction can last up to two years, the honeymoon period of a marriage, after that—love is a conscious choice.
I would say I’ve only been infatuated with narcs according to that theory as they usually don’t last longer than two years.
K
So then having an attraction to someone means they are a narcissist? So then again if we are not attracted to someone they wont be a narc? I dont want to be with someone I’m not attracted to 🙁
I struggle with this a lot. I am not sure I can develop an attraction to a normal human. I’m serious. I want to as it makes sense but I’ve never been unless it was a toxic overall situation which fed the narcissistic dynamic as I’ve determined here. It causes extreme anxiety. I may never get this down. Good inquiry.
I’ve explained this to you previously
Clearly duh. I’m fucked.
Or not if you’re staying away from people
I’ll hide in your Instagram cave. I can’t have any human contact!
Lorelei
This thread is very good.
HG Tudor says:
October 9, 2019 at 07:29
Love is not meant to be exciting.
The problem is, we have made it this way and people think this is the norm and how it should be. Thus they come out with platitudes along the lines of the ones you have mentioned and they are misled.
https://narcsite.com/2019/10/08/evil-imagine-greater-2/
Lorelei
This might be the thread.
Lorelei says:
January 18, 2020 at 00:42
HG–just in case I wasn’t clear… I am not ever going to date a boring fat ugly uneducated dumb boring empath man just because it is healthy.
HG Tudor says:
January 18, 2020 at 11:44
Nobody suggests that you do.
There are plenty of educated, slim, interesting, sparkling empathic men available.
https://narcsite.com/2020/01/22/why-am-i-drawn-to-toxic-behaviours/comment-page-1/
I have gone through this in detail with Lorelei.
HG
Understood re: Lorelei.
Haha K. I think I’m a pessimist in regard to men!
Lorelei
Can’t say I blame you, however, once your ET clears up, that may change. Keep reading!
Thanks K.
My pleasure Lorelei.
There’s a theory that love grows on you. For example, practicing love leads to feelings of love. A healthy person interacting with you in loving ways creates a change of heart/mind/chemistry. As opposed to narcs where you feel love but never experience them loving you. I believe this is entirely possible because the only reason we are attracted to narcs is a chemical addiction related to childhood where we mistake that for love and later in life respond to the same stimulus. They did an experiment with dogs where they rung a bell every time they fed them and dogs began to salivate at the sound of the bell. I think my body salivates at the prospect of “love” (as I knew it to be), a narc loving me properly, which will never happen. If you never had steak before you won’t respond to it before it arrives. You have to experience real love before you can instinctively attract to it without tuning as we do with narcs. It will be an intellectual attraction before it becomes a physical one. We can intellectually understand that narcs do not suit us and what will. We need to make better choices and let the biology catch up.
The intellectual is what attracted me to him. HIS intelligence. I thought I struck gold. Someone who could keep up with me intellectually. However, I did start to notice that my ideas and perceptions were always being shut down. Smh
honestyrocks777
You are a sapiosexual. Your ideas and perceptions (challenge fuel) threatened his control, hence the shut down.
Fuel (Frustration, irritation, upset), control and the supremacy.
HG Tudor says:
July 23, 2016 at 23:13
I am. I am. You are right.
So, you are a sapiosexual are you?
https://narcsite.com/2016/07/22/always-watching/
Interesting… I will look up that term. If I am I never knew it..lol and it is also so neat to hear the validation of me challenging him… I had asked him that. I told him I noticed a pattern that whenever I had something to say it always got turned around and he broke up. I asked him if he was using that as control at one point. Lol. But of course he said no. I told him I thought he used control in the form of manipulation by changing stories etc. I told him he could get people to do what he wanted. But it wasnt easy to spot. For instance he never told me I was fat or needed to lose weight. But he did tell me I hurt his lower back by being on top and he has always been with tiny girls. Maybe I’m reading to much into it? But somehow I’ve lost 40 lbs in 2 years. Not trying (with the exception of walking for 2 months 1 time a week for 2 miles) I kinda think the stress had me losing weight. I’ve not really been with intellectual people before. When I met him I just liked how we felt a connection. Then I learned how smart he was and it was a bonus.
Yes. Yes. I can identify with this attraction to intelligence not being able to connect through this as it didn’t impress but threatened and everything being a contest to them. Intimacy, real, authentic, true intimacy, at any level, proved impossible.
I remember him seeming annoyed when I would ask him how he thought or perceived things.. he just told me I didnt need to ask questions and that actions speak louder than words..
honestyrocks777
Being attracted to someone doesn’t necessarily mean that the individual is a narcissist. Are you currently ensnared with a narcissist? Escaped or disengaged (discarded)?
HG Tudor says:
January 8, 2020 at 13:04
There are no such things as soul mates. That is a narcissistic ideal. There are many special people out there for you and they are not narcissists.
I escaped back in november. Can I tell a little about how I started focusing on narcissism? The things I noticed but disnt know what I was seeing?
We met feb of 2018.
2 weeks in i went to a bbq with his friends. He took off with some friends. Left me with a girl i didnt know. It was over an hour. When he came back his friend mentioned how he was gone a ling time..he got snappy and i left. The story changed so much and “i” was the problem because he claimed he was only gone for “15 mins” and I shouldn’t come between him and his friends.
After a month or two I noticed he didnt know how to “listen” I mentioned it and gave him a book. Over 3 months I mentioned it 3 times (including when I gave it to him).He got so frustrated and kept telling me I wont let it go blah blah blah and that I always bring it up. (I didnt.) He told me if i ever brought it up again he would never read it. Ever. So i didnt.
(But later learned he told his friends that I am basically relentless,) and I was the bad guy.
He claimed his job had him working so much..although now I question it. But I asked him “how do men look at this, if a job isnt conducive for a relationship then will a man leave?” He was supposedly working 6 and 7 days 12 hours. He told everyone I gave him an ultimatum. Broke up with me.
He would talk about his friends and how bad they were so I said one day “I’m worried about your friend circle” and also his friends supposedly disnt like me. So I asked if he wanted to go his separate way and have a bf where his friends liked me. But that was saw.as an ultimatum. Broke up with me on my birthday.
I started seeing that how he remembered things wasnt very far off. I asked about that but also started recording our conversations because he would say I said things I didnt and vice versa. But he said he got hit on the head as a child and has bad memory.
I started wanting to not be physical because I wanted to see if he liked me without sex involved. Well then he said I was testing him. Broke up. And started visiting a girl named jamee. I didnt know he was pursuing her though. Then his best friend messaged me and told me he asked her in a date and she knows how much I love honesty. She declined. And eventually he came back to me. I asked him once… “is the reason you came back to me because lisa turned you down and jamee wants only friends” “of course not” was basically his answer. But I felt it inside that it HAD to be it. But he is so good with his words. (I later found out about what he was doing with jamee. He was live bombing her with gifts and dinners etc and asked her out and she said she saw him as only a friend. He asked her twice. And she said his face was like he was pissed and gave her basically an itemized list of all the money he spent. Oh and there was some other girl he want on a date with and I guess she was showing him porn and he turned her down (we all know better right?) I cant remember the other 2 breakups in that 6 month period.
Oh and he told everyone that I was talking to jamee about our relationship. I wasnt. Sent screenshots. Even my own mentor questioned me. He told that to my mentor!! I asked to do a 3 way so I could find out who was lying.. he refused. But he gaslighted them.
I caught on to his friends saying things that didnt happen and questioned nick and I told him he was the common denominator. 3 people cant have the same story and be wrong. But he was able to make sense of it somehow. I believed him. Another red flag.
I’m learning that his friends not liking me was because of the seeds of doubt he planted. And he didnt like it at all when I would talk to them because it disrupted what he said about me.
After he cheated (the time he told me about) it didnt make sense. I started picking up on how he could never be wrong. He could deflect anything. (This was about a year in) i told him all this stuff. The conversations i remember telling him just never resolve anything. I didnt know about circular conversations at the time.
I also study the enneagram. I know I shouldn’t type him but I noticed he controlled things with how he words things. I saw that denial and rationalization were defence mechanisms for the number 8. Started down that trail. Then 6 months later I kept looking back in my journal for the hundreds of times he could slip out of anything.
After the cheating it was “what can I do. What do you need” from him. I asked for 4 things. He could dodge them all either by guilt or pity. He would tell me in very convincing words that I dont need to keep talking about the cheating. It hurts him to relive it. So I felt guilty but also it didnt feel right that he would get angry when I brought it up. And of course the 4 things he never followed through with. But his words are clever. He can twist it.
Then his ex wife came back in the picture. Some days he hated her. Some days he justified talking to her. I told him she wasnt his penpal or best friend. He complained at how much she messaged him so I told him then quit engaging with her. If you dont like it.. cut it out. But he always could do what he wanted.
But it was so odd how much he fought trying to be in contact with her. That was the one time I left. But of course he got me back. Then I saw an article. 10 signs of narcissism. And he had 6. All things I told him before but didnt know it was narcissism.
I wish you guys could read my darn journal. I didnt realize how crazy it was. He could explain anything and it all made logical sense.
Months before I told him that I saw how he could let me speak for about 5 mins then 90% was about how his way was better. I asked him once if he would spend that much time validating my points of view and that if he could do it for him he could do it for me. Clever nick couldnt agree to it though. Found it odd.
Then at one point my daughter was gaslighted. (Again I didnt know these terms) and it freaked me out. He was arguing with her trying to tell her what happened was not what she remembered.
At that point I went to his best friend lisa. Talked to her about narcissism. She said no because he will go to her and ask what hes doing wrong.. he feels bad. (Now I know is false contrition and cognitive empathy)
Ugh.. I’m feeling sick. This isnt even touching the surface of the mind games.
I see how we were all triangulated with nick. I didnt want to talk to any of his friends because he spoke so badly of them. And his exes…yes his exes.. they were all controlling and manipulative. I asked about that. He labeled me that too with his friends. I asked how is it that everyone you meet is controlling and manipulative? I noticed that.
I even asked him if HE is controlling and manipulative because he would always tell me.. If you tell someone they are doing something enough.. they will start to do it. And I found that odd… and so I wondered if he was telling me what he was doing..
I’ve just picked up on so much but I would let him convince me…I’m mad at myself for that… I wasnt dumb.. i was catching on. I saw this stuff.
But i didnt know what it was. Hes told me all sorts.of stuff about his friends to get me to question their character. Lisa was a manipulator and cant handle money and never paid him back a 1000 dollars and had a gang bang. Caleb treats sierra like shit and is abusive. Jared was after me so he doesnt want me talking to him. Natalie he thinks is gross and looks like an alien and is a back stabber. His ex wife was a cheater and had bipolar and agoraphobia. His ex gf was controlling and manipulative. Ugh
I reached out to his exes and it was incredible the stories they had. 🙁 I am friends with them. They moved on but lindsy talked about it being bad 10 + years ago and it’s sad that it is still continuing and gotten worse.
All his friends think all.these girls were the culprit. None of them have fact checked like me. Just believed the words coming out of his mouth.
I guess I’m writing all this to try and remind myself of the fucking bullshit I was going through.
I DID break no contact a couple weeks ago. I was numb. Didnt feel anything for once in my life. Messaged nick an audio message. I had no feelings what so ever. I was monotone. It started off with “fuck you” in a very I dont care vouce. And told him for about 15 mins all the bs I knew he was doing and lied about and women and projection. I told him he did help me… he helped me to see to NEVER second guess myself again. (He would always tell me to follow my gut, but I asked him once “how can i follow my gut if you keep telling me it’s wrong when it comes to you all the time? Any other time my gut was right to him)
Jared needed a vehicle once. I had mine that was sitting and nick told me it wasnt my place. But now the story is coming back around that I didnt even help a friend in need. Smh
I started a Facebook group so I can have a place to talk and interact with people who also are dealing with this crap.
Oh… leona.. his coworker.. claimed she was in her 60s and was a cool soul. Mentioned he wanted.to hang out with her. I agreed. I have a few people I have coffee with. In their 70s. Found out she is not much older than me. Smh
He tried to bait me on.that one. I reached out to her prior to all this website and just asked if they had done anything. I noticed at 10 or so pm he made a remark on fb and she.was snarky as well. Then 2 hours later he messaged me to say he missed me. The next morning he messaged and I ignored him. Then he wished me the best and I felt like I owed him an “ok” then he rang my phone 5 times and I ignored them. Then he said “you will be held accountable misti *%&* for telling *lies* to leona.. And I told him I was done being accountable to him and his crap. He told me I was fucking sick. Blocked me. Week later showed up at my house asking for another chance I shut the door in his face. He claims he was trying to get a loan all that time for us to move in but he was getting his fancy on.
I got sidetracked. After I sent the audios I blocked him.
Next week his best friend lisa messaged me basically telling me I’m the abuser. And she has been with a narcissist etc etc and nick is NOT a narc. I just didnt care. She is speaking from ignorance. He has them all.fooled. she told me I just wasnt getting my way and was trying to bring him low by sending him the message. I kindly and very monotonous replied back that I dont have to prove to her. She has no idea on what has been happening. And I wish her the best..
But I cant let it go. She doesnt know. His ex wife doesnt know. The others do and are in compete agreement. They told ME.. gosh the stuff they went through
He told me of a dog hanging himself in the lightning storm.. now I question it.
He told me shanna held a gun to his head.. now I question it..
Anyways.. this doesnt even touch the surface
His daughter Casey.. he gaslighted her. He told me she was dying and he may have to move back to california. I.talked to her and she didnt say that. She told him she needs to be on meds or else she COULD die in a few years. He told her (supposedly I wasnt there) that she didnt tell him the whole story.
I’ve even wondered because he has wanted her to come visit and she doesnt. He says she always changes her plans but now I’m wondering if he even asks her or is changing that around.
And I remember a text from his ex shanna telling him she was in some state… she lives in cali..but was coming this way..he said she was probably going to visit her brother. Now I question.that too… I live in indiana and he would always say I was making her competition because “she is 2000 miles away” and one time he theough out at me “she fucking aborted my child why would I want to talk to her”
Anyways..I lost track of what I was doing.. I was trying to soothe myself and remind myself of all the red flags i saw..
Much love guys
Lorelei, there is another solution. Just have your own personal collection of Ns, enjoy the golden period then place them on the shelf when they begin devaluation. Replace them with a different N and just enjoy the hoovers when they come around.
If only it were that easy.
Good idea! If only I could be trained that way..
I’ve tried this. It sort of works. I wanted to prevent myself from becoming too invested in one person when they weren’t going to. I was trying to be proactive and balance level of investment with theirs to buffer any injuries to my ego. I also thought they would grow in love for me after realizing I’m different (not understanding just how similar I probably was). Having more than one person does help— but I couldn’t do it anymore knowing what I know now.
At that time, it was a numbers game. I thought I’m just increasing my odds. I had hope someone would eventually work out. I just haven’t met them yet. I was choosing my partners by how they made me feel (adrenaline, arousal). My empathy was attracted to narcs. My magical thinking believed that if I feel attraction so strongly, there must be a reason for it (imagining things like soul mates or energy vibrations that attract or God’s master plan) not realizing the attraction is childhood dysfunction drawing me to disordered people who can only bring me back to a dynamic my love will never solve. I know better now. I can’t do it again without having the hope piece that is gone now from learning.
I’m pleased you know better now Hope. I was just kidding re having a couple of Ns on the go at the same time. it woudl be a complete headfuck I’m sure!
You’re spot on that it was magical (emotional) thinking that there was something more going on attraction wise. that is how they make us feel and it’s sadly not real.
Alexis2016
I seriously thought that when I first arrived here. Why not jump at the hint of devaluation to the next golden period with another? I am not a love devotee so did not understand why this was not a viable solution. So much I didn’t understand (and still don’t). The learning continues.
So true NA. I always think I’ve learned all there is to know and then HG comes up with something else which blows me away
alexissmith2016
And he keeps us on our toes. It’s fantastic!
yup!
I’d like to give my two cents…I love studying relationships.. the statement that non narcissists dont engage in infatuation is incorrect from what I have learned.
One thing I like to inform others about is the 5 stages of love. Or “love cycles” simple articles can be found or longer drawn out books on these ideas. But the first stage that any couple experiences is generally “infatuation”. Then stage 2 they get deeper in closeness. Stage 3 most couples break up. You can find the majority of couples getting married in stage 1 and divorced in stage 3 (disillusionment). Most relationships do not make it past stage 3 and then repeat the cycle all over again with a new partner. People are often chasing the “feeling” that comes with stage 1. Alcoholics can quit drinking in stage 1 because the chemicals in the brain are soooo strong.. then they wear off. People think they are with the “wrong partner” or that their partner didnt show their “true colors” etc etc when in reality our chemicals kept us f re om seeing them.
This is why it has been hard for me to distinguish between the “golden period” and “stage 1” they resemble each other.
Anyways,
Not to say you are wrong HG… just that I disagree. 😉
So you are stating I am wrong. Why not have the courage of your, albeit misconceived, conviction?
You are confusing the 5 stages of love for a non-narcissistic relationship. It is not. The 5 stages you are referring to is describing a narcissistic entanglement. Once again evidencing how so many commentators dress up the narcissistic entanglement as something else, get it hopelessly wrong and end up misleading people such as yourself into adhering to at best unhelpful and at worst, dangerous, ideas.
I thought infatuation was the same as a crush. I had plenty of crushes when I was growing up; if you’d asked me at the time, I’d have said it was love. This is NOT what happens with a narcissist?
My confusion is this…HG you dont experience love. Never have and never will. This idea is coming from people who study this field. Who study psychology. And the patterns of relationships. If infatuation is only for a narcissistic entanglement then the statistics of 1 in 6 or 17% would be inaccurate and would have to be nearly everyone in a relationship.
This confuses me. Can you clarify or anyone?
So then the feeling of really caring for someone is only for narcissistic relationships?
Would it be said then that if I didnt have a strong feeling for someone then they would not be a narcissist?
How can I have feelings for someone and not have attraction or a lovey feeling for them?
I know that love is not a feeling. And that is why most people think they dont love someone anymore because they relate love to a feeling. But feelings are temporary.. thereby if thinking live is the butterflies.. you will leave when the butterflies go. Making love temporary. But it is not.
I am not understanding what I am missing with the concept of the 5 stages of love. I am assuming you know what I am talking about HG if you were able to counter the idea.
Also, can someone help me understand this.. i have wordpress. All the comments were going to a different email. I used the Yahoo email to receive articles and the gmail to communicate with HG. This morning i woke up and my gmail was flooded with comments. It was a high trigger for me as i like to know what to expect going in each email. What did I do for all these comments to go to the other email? How can I correct it?
Hope
The comments on this thread are very helpful, too.
HG Tudor says:
December 15, 2019 at 12:40
Infatuation is a form of emotional thinking. Limerence is a form of emotional thinking. Limerence (I dislike the word myself) is infatuation. Narcissists are infatuated. Empaths are not. You experience love, we do not. The narcissist is able to exploit an empath´s emotional thinking because it causes them to miss the red flags which logic would otherwise show.
Where an empath falls in love with a non-narcissist, the feelings experienced by the empath are real,there is no emotional thinking involved because the basis for the feelings is genuine because the non-narcissist is not manipulating.
Where an empath falls in love with a narcissist, the feelings experienced by the empath are real also BUT there is emotional thinking involved and the basis for the feelings is NOT genuine because the empath is being manipulated. The addiction to the narcissist is driving the feelings, aided and abetted by emotional thinking.
https://narcsite.com/2019/12/14/victim-or-volunteer-part-three-4/comment-page-1/
I feel like I am going nuts right now.. I dont understand. If a narcissist experiences infatuation and it is emotional thinking.. they have emotion?
If an empath does not experience infatuation then what the hell am I experiencing? Am I a narc then?
I DEEPLY care for people. ALL people. So my caring and my feelings are what? Gosh I feel like I’m in a crisis… 🙁
honestyrocks777
Yes, narcissists have emotions, negative ones. When you have a chance read the link below, it explains their emotions very well.
You may be experiencing mirroring, if you are ensnared with a narcissist, which feels like infatuation. The Infatuation article may help clarify things.
You are not a narcissist and it is very normal to feel like you are going nuts. We’ve all been there.
https://narcsite.com/2019/11/25/the-futility-of-your-feelings/
https://narcsite.com/2019/12/11/infatuation-11/
I’ve questioned me being a narc several times.. one because I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder over 20 years ago. I saw some comments talking about possibly people with that diagnosis are narcs. But over the last year I came off the medication etc because I had been on SOMETHING for over 20 years. I wanted to know “what I feel like” without all that crap. Anyways, I am a very deep thinker. I reflect ALL the darn time. And so i wondered.. am i a narc? Then the “hoovers” when he would break up repeatedly.. i would go back to him “can we work this out”? So “I” was hovering. I didnt understand all the breakups. So i was trying to help resolve our miscommunications.. but what if that’s my subconscious reasoning and i dont really see it right? All things i wonder. What if I’m a narc and I’m colliding with him.
Yes I read both of those. The infatuation article was another thing that had me wondering if I am a narcissist. Because it said “non narcs do not engage in infatuation” I dont know of a relationship that I have had where I didnt start there.
Also the sex addiction aspect. I thought years and years ago I was a sex addict. I thought if I shared that with people then they must love me. But also I enjoyed being with people. I loved how good it felt. I even didnt think one person could satisfy me. I ran along with open relationships and swinging for quite sometime. And of course enjoying bdsm stuff. I loved being submissive. Then my ppath kept changing and I discovered monogamy and the bible etc. Walked away from bdsm.
But now… I’m so terribly confused. I feel lost. It’s like I’m going back in time 10 years or so to what I used to believe and practice. I dont know who ii am or what I believe anymore. And parts of me wants to just have tons of sexual encounters. And its weird… because that hasnt been my path for sooo long. It’s like I’m trying to rediscover myself. And i think so deeply that i drive myself nuts sometimes because I just want to KNOW who I am and why i do things. So all the previous makes me question if i am a narc or if i am super emotional because i am an empath? And do empaths like sex that much and not as a reason for fuel etc…
I wonder these things too. I think it’s just narcissistic tendencies. I think about the differences that make a narcissist a narcissist: a complete lack of emotional empathy and a repulsion for intimacy. When I doubt myself I think of how I have empathy and crave intimacy without a doubt. When I doubt others I take my time and look for evidence of those two things proven and tested through time and witnessed when they don’t know they have an audience for authenticity. It’s harder to decide for others but it is easy to validate myself when I go and reflect on the fundamentals.
Anyone have insight?
I always understood “falling in love” AS infatuation?
The problem with falling in love with a narc is you love someone who doesn’t exist. Our capacity for real love is being misdirected to fake objects.
Most people have crushes growing up, and may invest that guy with the motorcycle and the black leather jacket or the head cheerleader/homecoming queen with all sort of wonderful attributes they don’t actually possess.
At some point, we learn to go beyond that. We find out what people are really like, and either the crush goes and we look for someone more compatible, or we accept them, good and bad, as they are.
Narcissists, I think, don’t want to know what we are Really Like. They aren’t interested. If we don’t live up to the ideals they created in their heads, we have failed them.
When The Collector’s Fred Clegg (who has no idea what he is) finds Miranda’s diary, all he gleans from it is she never loved him, something she was trying to convey all along. He doesn’t ask himself if his actions were likely to inspire love in anybody. He’s out looking for a new appliance.
Thank you violetta. I’m sorry for the long pause. My email is just swarmed but I noticed on WP that I can see each reply so I am just now going through them.
honestyrocks777
Me too!
Prince Harry announcing the engagement: “I just hope she loves me as much as I love her.”
Can we even escape the narcissist? They are basically everywhere
Yes. Through my work – it works.
This is excellent! It might be one of my favorites. I have a stupid question HG. You speak about the narcissist’s infatuation with themselves. Can a narcissist ever paint THEMSELVES black?
No, MB, they cannot.
I told you it was a stupid question! Thank you for clarifying. (And not laughing at me.)
Never a stupid question.
HG is such a patient Professor.
MB
I agree; it’s not a stupid question.
Thank you K. A bit of self flagellation there. Never mind me!
MB
You are such an empath!
She certainly is.
HG
Hahahaha…she couldn’t hide it if she tried.
Guilty as charged, K! 🙋♀️
I’ll tell you a story from today in the life of MB. I ordered a takeout salad for lunch. Once I got back to the office to eat, I realized they had left off the avocado 😩That’s a large part of what makes this salad so good. I considered calling to tell them that they had left it off. Then I managed to talk myself out of it. Here’s the thought process that occurred. Ok, I’ll wait until after lunch because they are very busy now. In fact, I bet that’s why my order wasn’t correct. Or maybe somebody else ordered theirs with no avocado and they got mixed up. Oh, I hope not. If one doesn’t like avocado, that would be disgusting for them. You know, it could be that their avocados had gone bad (like mine always do). Or maybe somebody forgot to place the order. I didn’t want to get anybody in trouble. They may just be having a bad day (it was correct the last time I got it) and a customer complaint would certainly not help. After all, it’s just a lunch order. I’ll be sure to check it next time before I leave with my order. In fact, it’s really my fault anyway because I didn’t check it. So I didn’t call. And yes, I will give them another chance!
I’ll tell you a story in the life of HG. I ordered a takeout salad for lunch. I realised that they had left out the avocado.
An avocado was brought to me shortly thereafter.
Ha ha HG! I’m obviously not as important as you. I almost never complain. I take what I get or go without.
MB
Here’s a story in the life of K.
If I ordered a salad and they left out the avocado, I would call and get the avocado delivered or the salad would be comped (free).
K, that’s what I was struggling with. Whether or not to complain and get a coupon. I decided a coupon wasn’t worth ruining anybody’s day. Plus, I despise conflict and avoid it when possible. My salad was still very good and I’ll get the avocado next time because I’ll check it before I leave. Win/win. There must be some reason the Universe didn’t think I should have avocado today!
MB
You need narc pills, stat!
Follow my lead:
1. You aren’t complaining; you are stating a fact(s).
2. You aren’t ruining anyone’s day by asking for avocados; you paid for them.
3. Embrace conflict!
4. You don’t need to gloss over or accept blame for The Avocado Debacle.
5. To hell with the universe, if you ordered avocados, then they should be on your salad!
K, you made me giggle! I would’ve already forgotten it had I not described my neurotic thought process for you which happened to be immediately after I had eaten my salad sans avocado. I do gloss over most things and anger is slow to appear and if it does, I stuff it. At my core, my true, abandoned self does not feel worthy of the air it breathes. Now…if it was somebody else that had been slighted avocado, I’d be all about wanting justice for them!
MB, there are many things I do not know and may never understand, but this I know with certainty: You were born worthy, you are worthy, and you ever will be worthy and precious. Worthy of love of self. Worthy of love of others and damned worthy of avocado!! You know, there really is no need for conflict or discord in such situations. You can simply say, “I really enjoy the avocado on these salads and it’s missing today. Would you mind?” And extend the salad back with a smile. You will be met with an apology and likely extra avocado. Seal the deal with one of your kind thanks and you will be very much appreciated.
MB is welcome to drive here for lunch. I’m serving baked cheese ravioli with garlic break sticks to several women coming over. I have an assortment of sweets.
MB
I am happy that you giggled. Watch out everybody! MB has some Super Savior traits and she will kick ass if you mess with her Peeps!!!
Now, if only we could figure out how to get you to do the same for yourself.
I love gaucomole (spelling?) to the point of eating it until I’m sick so I just don’t! It’s like cocaine in food form.
MB
Hahahaha….you are an empath to the Nth degree!!!
I worry about people getting fired as well. I have empathy for lower level workers. You never know if it’s their first day or week or what not. Now, if they give me attitude I wouldn’t mind complaining. Some may need discipline/correction. Discipline isn’t always a dirty word if you have an emotionally mature manager.
MB
It’s not about complaining, you can ensure you’re provided with what you ordered in a kind way and still get what you want. When my order would get messed up in the past, I would tell them courteously what I want changed, give a short smile and problem solved.
Don’t pose it as a question. Stressed personnel can become decision fatigued and actually get annoyed by apologetic behaviour as in “I don’t know, CAN I get you some avocado?!”
If you tell them want you want and don’t beat around the bush or act weird, they will usually line it up with the other tasks they are currently doing and just get that avocado your way. It’s only when customers get bratty or overly apologetic that people might be annoyed (although somebody elses emotions are not your responsibility in general and it’s really not that deep).
You can be assertive without being offensive. Go get that salad of your dreams, MB!
MB,
That was a good question. I have heard narcissists making self-deprecating comments and also jokes (all-bad) such as “You know, I‘m thick-headed”, “I’m a nobody”, “I know, I am bad mother”.
They were not in the middle of a reality gap. They expected me to strongly disagree with them and tell them how clever, awesome, wonderful they are.
Correct. They were Provocations and Pity Plays.
You are right. Thank you, HG.
Thank you E.B., It follows that the extreme infatuation the narcissist has with him/herself might be followed by a period of devaluation.
I’m the opposite. Myself always devalues me, never infatuated! In need of some narc pills.
Therapists cost a lot of money. And that’s ok if it helps. But they can’t help because they do not know how a narcissist really acts and the consequences for the victim. Like brainwashing. Even books written by victims didn’t help me.
I didn’t know there were different kinds of narcissists. I knew my sister was worse to deal with than my father or mother. Now I understand I had to deal with three narcissist belonging to a different type. So as a child I met with three sorts of brainwashing and abuse.
Mr. Tudor charges for his help – so do other therapists. I prever to pay for a therapist who offers advises that really help. I have learned a lot from Mr. Tudors advise – so now I finally can get the brainwashing from my narcissistic family out of my system.
I can’t change my character but I CAN change that and avoid narcissists in the future.
Thank you ATE.
I’d have fared about the same in a crack house as the therapist I went to a few years ago.
The way this site is marketing now makes me sick. Jesus Christ…
You’d best go to the doctor then if you’re sick, I’m sure he’ll be delighted to comply with your expectation of getting everything free of charge.
I spent 150$ to talk to you for an hour and I’ve been lost in PayPal hell with trying to purchase these things for months.. thanks tho. Money isn’t the issue. Obviously it is for you.
I know I have spoken to you.
If you need help with the purchases, just state as such and email me. I will assist you as I assist anybody who has issues with payment, ask FYC, FM1T and NJFilly for instance, Jess.
HG, Indeed you are most kind and helpful and flexible in your approach to supporting us on all fronts. Some issues with payments can arise, but they do not rise to the level of frustration Jess has expressed. And you kindly, address any with issues with fast, effective solutions.
Jess, I am pretty sure you do not work for free and I assume you are an empath. Why would you expect HG, or anyone for that matter, to work for free, or in HG’s case, pay to work for us? This is illogical and lacking in insight to say the least. HG incurs significant costs in creating and publishing his materials and every aspect of this blog’s creation and maintenance comes at a significant cost to HG. Further, to extend HG’s valuable messages and materials to those in desperate need, he will need to create additional revenue streams to accomplish this worthy goal. Lastly, HG deserves the rewards of his labor, as would anyone. I can appreciate your frustration with payment methods, but attacking the host is a cheap shot and you are better than that. Why not ask for assistance instead?
Thank you FYC. Jess has not yet clarified whether her frustration was with being invited to pay for the work or with the payment process.
A gracious reply, HG. I understood her to mean both since she states, “Money isn’t the issue. Obviously it is for you.” That read as unnecessary sarcasm to me. If I am incorrect, I sincerely apologize. Of course such frustration may also stem from eroded empathy due to abuse. I have no way of knowing, so I responded to what was written. (I may also be a bit sensitive to such commentary as it seems often people visit this site expecting all information to be free. Creating intellectual product and marketing the same is always costly in time and money.) Either way, it is better to ask for assistance since many of us have encountered problems and found ways to resolve them and would be happy to share the same.
As every, your constructive comments bear testament to your good offices. It is unfortunate that there are those who expect everything to be delivered for free, when a massive amount already is.
Thank you, HG. It is very true that you do a great deal of work not only for free, but at a cost to yourself. Allow me to thank you on behalf of those who do not know or realize this fact. The greater majority truly appreciate all you do.
Indeed they do and thank you FYC.
Jess, did the consult go well?
I had two with HG, one re: Narcx, the other re: work matters. Both were extremely helpful and I know I would not be in such a good place without them.
I have purchased a few other packages/bulletins and find them very helpful, too.
All in all, I have given much less money to HG than I gave to a therapist in a year, and I am much better off.
Thann you Lisk
Jess I am in hell every time I try to purchase something! I finally just gave up and now I ask HG to invoice me if he has the time, he is usually right on it which he doesn’t need to be, I’m just grateful I don’t have to put up with PayPal or my gift cards not working any longer.
It sucks if you’re broke I feel you.
But ultimately we r gotten SO. MUCH grade A, unavailable-ANYWHERE-else, inside scoop, mind blowing information for free here and on YouTube I mean…he’s spending a LOT of time putting this together , doing the audio files, bulletins etc plus we still get free articles. PLUS some of these are $5 , $15… and there’s sales — I know the frustration , I’ve beaked off once At another reader saying it’s the price of a dinner out (even do DJ game moms get a dinner out? 😆) but that was a moment of envy. I made my bed.
HG has a whole big huge life outside this blog and he puts a lot into it so 🤷♀️
I’m good at my job and my hobbies – I’m not even the BEST at what I do (unlike HG) -should I work for free or give away what I create for free at huge demand ?
Are you really disgusted? Or were you having a moment of ET?
Edit; * when do single moms get a dinner out
Friggin mistype
Woke—if I could take you to dinner I would! Haha, hope you are doing well!
I may be mistaken, but Jess´comment might have been expressing frustration with making purchases as opposed to having to pay for some content. Her later comment seems to go in that direction.
I still feel bad for inadvertently hurting your feelings with that “dinner out” comment, WAF. Believe me, it’s very common to dine out where I live, and it is hardly a luxury. Plus I should have articulated that comment better – my English skills clearly need improvement if I still keep missing essential nuances of “if it’s about the money” vs “if it’s not about the money”. I apologize once again, WAF; and I’d be happy to take you out for dinner and apologize in person if we weren’t hiding behind the masks or anonymity here.
If it’s free… you are the product. They are getting their money. Just in sneakier ways.
It seems like HG is interspersing a little more, so it’s not so bad.
How sweet for Valentine’s Day! How about we love ourselves.. I’d love to buy this for a friend HG. Is it “elementary” enough for a person only somewhat aware of narcissism to not be confused or turned off because they believe the cognitive demonstrations equate reality? You know what I mean I thinkz
Yes, it is couched in terms which they will identify with and understand.
Thanks—I’ll listen and see if I should order her one. (Like if she is ready..) The problem is.. (as you know) that eventually many of us realize it expands to our parents. It was a (is a) hard reckoning to know my dad was a disordered man who thought of me as an appliance. And this is my hesitation for my close friend. It’s clear as the sky is blue how this became imprinted for her. I’m actually more cautious now than before. It may shift again. It’s a can of worms some people can’t handle. Due to not handling it they end up ensnared again though. I venture to say the “recovery” from this addictive tendency is as dismal for some of us as lifetime alcoholics getting sober. Me being one with a very high propensity for “this” as an almost requirement. I have to seek it out—it’s not an unfortunate accident. I find it, crave it, all of it. I know I have a really strong draw to narcissists whether they be friends or romantic engagements. So, while I know it’s not love—I’m hesitant to be overly prescriptive with such a sensitive issue and not wanting to turn anyone off with too much too soon.
I can’t reply on the POTUS thread re,
MM hoovering an audience through Prince Harry as he’s an extension of herself.. Wow! How else or what’s another example? Do you struggle with this personally and have to think through not doing it?
It is not a struggle. It is inevitable that everybody is an extension of the narcissist, Lorelei, that is part of what we are because of our narcissism.
It’s interesting but explains boundary issues to an extent—that everybody is an extension of the narcissist.
HG—you really are genius. Lightbulbs go off for me a lot here. It’s an incredibly foreign concept how this disorder wraps an individual up in such a way that the similarity of nuances fit like puzzle pieces. It wouldn’t be problematic for you as is “home” to view others in this way. For me it would be really unusual, I have a hard time even talking to friends about personal things or stepping on toes, etc.
Indeed I am. I am pleased it has assisted you.
Haha, “Indeed I am.” Can’t you pretend to have some humility?
No, there is no point. I give you the honest reality here.
🤷🏼♀️
So everything is paid content now?
No.
Hello Max
There is a search bar on the upper right and you can use it to search for articles. Type: gas lighting, word salad, isolation, hoovers or toxic logic into the search bar and you will have plenty of content to read. Enjoy!
These are some of my favorite articles.
https://narcsite.com/2016/01/18/narc-club/
https://narcsite.com/2017/03/09/colour-me-narc-3/
https://narcsite.com/2016/06/25/food-glorious-food/
https://narcsite.com/2016/09/24/world-war-me-3/
https://narcsite.com/2016/12/21/contrariwise-2/
Thank you K. I had not read Colour Me Narc before.
MB
I love Colour Me Narc. This one is short and helps The Reader understand the mindset of HG (the narcissist).
https://narcsite.com/2015/09/26/the-tide-turns/
Definitely some there that I have never read! (And I’ve been around here for a little over a year)
lisk
These two are very short and gives The Reader some insight into HG’s world. The way he thinks is very different from how we think. Enjoy!
https://narcsite.com/2015/09/17/the-sum-of-all-tears/
https://narcsite.com/2015/09/29/like-a-book/
lisk and MB
This is a good one.
https://narcsite.com/2016/03/12/redress-with-the-red-dress/
K—sometimes you can match panties and bra and shave your legs and it is ok not to be love!
Lorelei
Just think of it as self-love.
Wouldn’t self love be a sex toy? We don’t shave our legs for a vibrator do we!?
Lorelei
Hahahaha…no, you don’t have shave a damn thing and a vibrator is the very essence of self-love.
Are vibrators allowed on HG’s no sex program K? I’m not allowed to state the length of the program because I was causing unnecessary discord the last time! And I’ve actually never been told to be on the program—I just knew better!
Lorelei
As long as No Contact is in place then vibrators are allowed.
Unless they are controlled via an app which the Narc has access to. Then that falls I to Arena 2
They have app controlled vibrators? I’ve had an extremely boring array of narcissists. Like not even one porn addict.
Hahahaha…Lorelei, you heard HG, get rid of all your vibrators in case they have been compromised. Go old school and get a non-battery powered model, stat.
Can you imagine the thought fuel from a compromised vibrator!
Goodness. I truly am not walking around with a remote powered sex toy for anyone!
You carry a phone don’t you?
No, I don’t even have cable!
You big fib.
I don’t have cable. Even basic. TV’s are never on. In fact, I own one 10 year old tv that has a fire stick for Netflix for the kids. That is it. It annoys me.
I’m cracking up—do you mean no contact with the vibrator?
Lorelei
Hahahaha…of course not! That would defeat the purpose! As long as you are NC with the narcissist then all non-compromised vibrators are acceptable.
Are these items really popular or something? I have never heard them discussed. My very spirited friend from high school told me some man she’s sleeping with wanted to “throw down” a tarp on the bed. I did not even want to know why the hell one would need a tarp for sex. It was quite normal to her.
Wet work
Ugh. I guess that makes sense.
If you need a tarp I’d rather go outdoors! I don’t want that mess on my bed! Lol. An inflatable pool perhaps with an air mattress? I watched a video one time about nori massage as I love massage and a partner mentioned it to me one time as being the best ever experience. I wouldn’t mind trying that or oils or other messy things. Mud wrestling. LOL. But if I need a tarp I don’t want that mess in or near my bed! You can’t wash a mattress.
Haha—she cracks me up with stories. She peed on some woman’s pillow, (quite a story) and asked a guy for anal sex because he had a small penis. She just talks openly about this stuff and it’s not attention seeking. It’s as casual and as informative as the weather channel. She smokes pot all the time, is a school teacher, and an active AA sponsor. Oh, and styles hair at a lice shop where they clean up head lice. She is amazing and fun. I don’t know what is wrong with her!
I don’t think they are popular. Maybe in movies, it was shown in a romantic comedy being used in a public setting at a dinner table. Remote controlled vibrator built into the panties. It might be popular for cam girls’ customers when people are paying to interact. For regular people—I think it’s a novelty. Something you buy because you think it will be fun but only use once. It becomes a distraction if they are present in the room or frustration if apart as we know best how to please ourselves.
Lorelei and K,
They do have vibrators that are controlled through cell phone blue tooth so the narc should not have access to the controls!
njfilly
Never underestimate a narcissist. Toss out the old and in with the new. Just put the old ones in recycling, that will give people something to talk about.
theletterafterj:
Very funny. No wonder the recycling guys love coming to my house.
Is this a new product offering creating a buzz in The House of Tudor?
Ha ha very good.
njfilly
Hahahaha…I was thinking the same thing. Narc Proof Vibrators from HOT (House of Tudor)!
K,
Actually, that’s not what I was thinking.
njfilly
Hahahaha…what have you been putting in your recycling bins lately?
Non-recyclables because I like to live on the edge!
njfilly
Hahahahahahaha…that was a fucking riot! The cheek on you; you filthy empath!
His touch was a love drug
I had to have more
The next thing I knew
I opened the door
Come in, space monkey
Kiss me here, kiss me there
He still looked disgusting
But I didn’t care
(Give us more detail)
Oh, how do I describe it
Well, you know how a blender has twelve speeds
Well, when he got up to purée I thought I would die
But when he put it on liquify, I WANTED HIS BABY!
– “Earth Girls Are Easy”
Very opportune that this is available just in time for Valentine’s Day!
Indeed. Much needed reminder and bolster for all affected by narcissism. You will learn some new things also.
*Always* appreciative of the new things, HG. Also appreciate how the new learning here builds upon the already established learning.
You are welcome.