15 Boundary Breakers
We never respect boundaries, do not regard them as applicable to us, whether those boundaries are accepted social conventions or boundaries enshrined in law, we have little or no regard for them. These rules, procedures, conventions and laws are for the little people, not titans such as us. We go where we want, when we want and do what we want. Driven by our astonishing sense of entitlement, absent empathy and innate superiority, we smash through barriers and boundaries every day. This is a total mind set which we adopt and the examples of this are legion. Here are fifteen instance of our boundary breaking behaviours.
- Anything of yours is automatically ours.
- You are an extension of us.
- We make you feel guilty if you say no to us.
- We make you believe that you are something that you are not.
- We ignore and/or deny your needs.
- We invade your spaces.
- We allow your sense of self-esteem and self-worth to be eroded.
- We make you solely responsible for our needs.
- We make you say “yes” to us through a sense of obligation.
- We make you feel it is necessary to always please us.
- We treat you unequally.
- We fail to support you.
- We expect you to agree with us all of the time.
- We expect you to read our minds so you do what we want.
- We dominate your resources – time, energy, attention, socialising, money and emotions.
129 thoughts on “15 Boundary Breakers”
Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)
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He was happier without me and i was happier without him-we should never have gotten involved with one another. He went from a to z put a ring on my finger then started triangulating with an ex immediately-I dropped him many times over and as it was happening I uncovered all his financial lies and failures-his obsessions with women and his disappearances, low confidence, and 100 different hang ups that affected him and us constantly. It is a pleasure to be free. After a year I had enough. I could not marry him. Now if I could just get rid of the dress!
Yes the hang ups! I started to think after just a few months of dating GEEZ this guy has a million pet peeves and I happen to be doing every single one! No idea it was a personality disorder. I broke up with him at least 5-6 in the course of 8 months bc I was constantly dissatisfied with the quality of the relationship, the drama, the hairline triggers, the inability to regulate his emotions, the circular conversations and late night drunken arguments where I would inevitably end up being the one apologizing. I went a whole week no-contact after 4 months dating, but he hoovered me back with promises of therapy and getting better for me. He went to prob 5 therapy sessions and then starters saying they were redundant. After the last session he came back saying the Dr said most of our problems were MY fault! I’m now 5 months no-contact and basically have a PhD in cluster B personality disorders! Congrats on getting out! I almost married mine too! He was constantly pushing the agenda, calling it “the merge”. So strange. Good riddance! Dodged that bullet!
Burn it.
Very first date, within probably the first 45 minutes, he asked me my credit score. And he wasn’t smiling or joking or “just kidding” or anything. It was accompanied by the unblinking stare. And I took it as a compliment for some reason – like Oh, he must like everything else about me! How I look, our vibing together, the conversation! All that’s left is my credit score, right? Ugh. I remember laughing uncomfortably and then TELLING HIM MY CREDIT SCORE! It was all downhill from there. He slowly eroded all my boundaries during the course of 8 months dating. I will be 5 months no-contact this Friday!
I started reading this blog in 2016 and I waited about a year to comment. I enjoy popping in and commenting when I am able, but for many of us life happens and there isn’t enough time to do so as much as we’d like.
I enjoyed coming on here and releasing my thoughts–knowing full well that I would be understood here. I also enjoy the silliness and back and forth humor, which makes it fun.
I appreciate the comprehensive knowledge I have gained–when I get onto a subject, I find myself wanting to learn all about it. I often will reread articles over to remind myself what I need to remember.
Overall, I find this blog to very kind and accepting.
The suggestion that a narcissist (or almost anyone for that matter) would attempt to recapture or preserve some perceived prior intimacy felt (which he does not feel and has no control over amongst commenters) over being any less than the number 1 resource makes me chuckle. Who strives to be number 2? He’s a narcissist! Yes, I liked it too when he had more time to engage with readers, and I miss some that used to be here, but I celebrate that they have been able to move on when they once thought they could not. I don’t assume it has anything to do with the blog. My own desire to have the work reach as many people as possible however overrides my selfishness in wanting things to remain at my comfort level. It is amazing that the blog, never mind the books, interviews, and thank god for the packages that people can be pointed to for their specific situations, etc) has been maintained as well as it has by one man never mind in the face of such growth. Also that he continues with it considering the criticism he receives (and that we all know narcissists are not fond of). How many of us would continue on under the same scrutiny and criticism? Also – I notice there were no positive suggestions/thoughts on how a better experience could be achieved. Only doubt that the perceived change would deter future users with no specific evidence /reasoning. What if he decided fuck it – I choose a different route to legacy? He has other interests/options. That would be denying many the experience that we have had the benefit of. Over what? Squabbling about who says what? I notice that commenters take the praise quite well when it is afforded them. Contradictory much?
It’s frustrating that some people are hard of understanding that it is not actually defensiveness of HG at all. He does not require our defence and that is understood. It is more in praise that a bad man is doing a good job, and there is hope that genuine recognition of that along with heartfelt gratitude adds to making it worthwhile to continue so that the information will reach the eyes and ears of those who have not yet benefitted as we have. It’s ultimately for the benefit of other victims – not HG the narcissist. It’s sad that some pass judgement and labels onto others whose intention or concepts they simply don’t understand. We are all victims here and I’d hate to think of that as a form of victim shaming. So I won’t.
Very well stated.
NarcAngel,
You are obviously directing this comment to me, so I will reply.
I think you have reacted to my initial comment with a knee-jerk reaction and you’re focusing on all the negatives. My initial comment had many great and positive things to say about the blog. I remarked on these positive elements remembering what it was like when I was in the early stages of learning about, and recovering from, narcissistic abuse. That was the state I was in when I first found HG and narcsite.
In my initial comment in this conversation, I said I was immensely glad that I found HG’s blog when I did, because at that time I was struggling with emotional thinking and it helped me greatly. I will always be grateful for that. I also said that I found the discussions and conversations very engaging, interesting and educational. I felt a warm connection with HG and many other commenters and I felt strongly that everyone was learning from each other and that was a great feeling and also very helpful. All of these things are ‘positives’ with a capital P.
I realise that things change and that we all need to move forward. Instead of missing those things, I will look back and be very glad that I had that experience. It was a privilege, courtesy of HG as well as many commenters and readers who generously gave their time and shared their stories.
You say, “I notice there were no positive suggestions/thoughts on how a better experience could be achieved.” I have thought about this. Perhaps where it says “Vent your Spleen”, there could be an asterisk and then a disclaimer at the bottom of the screen in tiny letters that says, “venting your spleen in any remotely negative way about HG or the blog may result in a harsh backlash, therefore, caution is recommended”.
I’m only joking😉 I guess I have seized the power and I’m becoming more assertive and fearless about speaking my mind. This has been a valuable exercise though, showing me that being ‘fearless’ is not always the best way to be. I think I need to re-calibrate the extent of my ‘fearlessness’, if you know what I mean.
As always NarcAngel, it’s been a pleasure to communicate with you. Thank you for your time and your comments xx
Or you could revisit Rule 6.
HG,
I have now read Rule 6. All I can say to you directing me to read Rule 6 is that I have not claimed to be bullied and I have not played the “people are ganging up on me” card. You’re making insinuations that are not based in reality.
I said that venting your spleen could result in a harsh backlash. There was *no* suggestion that I feel bullied or am playing any kind of card. I made a factual statement, detached from any personal feeling resulting from this one conversation.
You are a narcissist, so I’m not holding my breath waiting for you to understand and acknowledge what I’m saying. Still, for the sake of ‘accuracy’ and for the benefit of other readers, I have responded.
The point I am making is you say that there is a backlash. Backlash is a an alternative description for “people going up on me”. Your inability to recognise this. There is no backlash. There is no harsh backlash. All that happened is some people disagreed with you. Why? They take issue with what you have stated. Just because they do, does not mean they are flying monkeys, it does not mean they are beating the drum for me, it means this – they do not agree with you. Just as you are entitled to make an opinion, so are they. You cannot see this, your repeated responses demonstrate your inability to recognise that.
You keep missing this point. I have raised it at least twice and you have failed to answer it. This is the last time I am going to make it.
This is what you have done:-
“I have stated my opinion. I am rejecting anybody disagreeing with me (thus also stating their own opinion) by accusing them of being overbearing/forming a backlash/beating the drum for HG”
For the sake of accuracy, I and others, have repeatedly pointed this out to you. Your repeated inability to recognise this keeps being underlined.
Here is where I do not agree with you one-hundred percent, HG.
You’ll be thrilled to know then that you are mirroring me.
So thrilled!
How marvellous!
Lisk,
Thank you for your comments in this thread. I greatly appreciate your views and also that you have taken the time to comment and make your views known.
It is not easy or rewarding to oppose HG in any way. It is difficult because:
1) HG is going to contradict anyone who does and he will do so in an ongoing and forceful way, simply because he cannot tolerate any form of ‘criticism’. What HG fails to see is that sometimes ‘criticism’ may actually be in the form of helpful, enlightening and well-intended discourse that is not meant to be flat-out insulting, spiteful, or outrightly ‘negative’.
2) Not only will HG contradict and oppose such ‘criticism’, but there will be numerous readers who will oppose you as well, for the same reasons stated in 1) above.
So, Lisk, thank you again, for making this more of a well-rounded ‘discussion’ and for enabling a greater number of valid viewpoints to be expressed and heard.
No, HG is not going to contradict someone. He will correct inaccuracy.
Furthermore, readers will oppose your opinion because they are expressing their opinion also. You have consistently failed to grasp this and your comment here again has demonstrated this failure. Just because someone agrees with me and disagrees with you, does not invalidate their opinion.
WiserNow,
I am just reading the comments on this thread for the first time today. I wanted to point out something that I observed, not as criticism, just as an observation of something you might have missed. Your comment about the lack of intimacy lately is understandable and HG has always allowed us to express our opinions. You commented “I sincerely doubt that I would feel the same gratitude for your site and your helpfulness if I stumbled upon your site now. The majority of commenters on the site now don’t strike me as truly empathic” While you were expressing your opinion on this matter there was another conversation happening involving newer readers. A few of those comments were about the pain, confusion and guilt they feel in their current relationship. Responses and support were given by new and old readers (some of the support was coming from readers that were simultaneously debating with you). The conversations had that same intimate feeling that you express is lacking lately. Are you sure that the intimacy is gone or are your opinions not allowing you to see it? And, did your comment contribute to the problems? The commenters that you say lack empathy are the readers as well. They’ve now have been judged by you.
I’ve always respected that you express your opinion even if it goes against the norm. Your willingness to state your perspective often opens debate and results in further learning. I just think maybe you are not seeing that even though this site is growing into something different than it was, the foundation is still the same.
Thank you Mercy for your comment. I appreciate your views and what you have said in general.
I would just like to say this… you say that “While you were expressing your opinion on this matter … support (was) given by new and old readers (some of the support was coming from readers that were simultaneously debating with you”.
That’s a fair enough observation. How do you know though, that the support that you saw demonstrated was not provided in order to show that I was wrong? Perhaps it was provided as a way to deny my assertions? Perhaps it was spurred on in order to prove that my views were unfounded?
Neither you nor I can ‘know’ that for sure. So, it cannot be proven with any kind of ‘demonstrable evidence’. Equally, you cannot prove that just because it was provided at the same time that I was expressing my opinion, it would have been provided whether or not I was expressing my opinion. Therefore, your ‘perspective’ may not be taking everything into account. Equally, one could argue that ‘my’ perspective may not be taking everything into account. Neither one of us is unequivocally ‘right’ or ‘wrong’.
Sincerely though, this thread has taught me a kind of lesson. It is that I should think twice before sticking my neck out in future to provide my honest opinion even though my intention was for the greater benefit of all involved. Doing that is more likely than not of getting my head chopped off. In future, I will let things pan out as they may without inviting harm to myself unnecessarily.
Perhaps that is the lesson that empaths need to learn overall. Stand back and let the narcissist march towards unrestrained power unhindered and unfettered, and then allow natural forces to do the rest.
Nobody chopped your head off. They disagreed with you. Something which you repeatedly cannot accept.
This thread is now concluded.
15 out of 15 to my ex-narc. Congratulations. 🏅
(X 4 as he has also treated our three children in this manner too, to a lesser extent. 🥉🥉🥉)
I was blind to this level of emotional abuse for so many years. I knew he could be a total **** at times but didn’t understand how or why, and continually blamed myself for pretty much everything bad that happened in our lives.
Not so now 😅
One of the most frustrating things for me is, having gained this new level of insight, that I know that he will never be able to hold himself accountable for any of these abuses.
Indeed, he would be perfectly capable of turning the tables in his own mind, were he ever to be confronted with this list, in order to convince himself that it is actually him who has been the victim of this level of coercive control.
And, more importantly, to convince others of it too, including our children.
It has been pointed out to me by my lawyer that abuse at this level is now classed as a crime in the UK, something that I am well aware of.
But for me to pursue it as such would result in opening up yet another whole level of manipulation and abuse by him, this time carried out in a public setting – it would be counter-productive for us as a family for me to do this.
For that, the justice system as it currently stands receives the golden gong. 🏆
So, walking out and maintaining “No Contact” wins the day, for me anyway. I know that it would be so much more difficult and traumatic for our children to have do this though.
It is proving very hard for them to accept or even to try to understand the level of breakdown of communication between me and their dad. It would be even harder for them to be faced, in the future, with needing NC for themselves. I hope that that need never arises for them.
I hope that one day they will all be secure enough in themselves to be able to firmly set their own boundaries and to prevent him from continuing to cross those lines, whilst still maintaining their relationship with him as their dad.
If, as their mother, I can one day help them to achieve this, without their being turned against him, I will feel as if one major battle has been won.
McThriver,
Re: “continually blaming myself”
Here is something that I’ve been noticing after finally realizing that much of what occurred with my Narcx was not my doing, but his: If I tell anyone about it they try to help me understand that I’m the blamer, that I have faults, too.
This is kind of maddening after being told by Narcx—AND by myself—for 8 years that everything that went wrong was my doing and for me to fix (and, boy, did I pull out all the stops to try and fix myself).
I’m pretty sure this is one of the reasons HG advises (if not commands) that we not talk about the narcissist with anyone as part of No Contact.
Lisk,
I completely understand your frustrations when others try to help you understand that you too have faults. As empaths, we tend to look in at ourselves and “analyze” if you will, whether or not we are to blame and what our weaknesses are so when others bring this to light, it is very hurtful. As you said, you did everything you could to “fix” yourself and it got you nowhere.
HG and others have made it clear that we should not tell others about our narcs as they will not understand and potentially look at us as the crazy ones, among other things. The psychiatrist who is treating my daughter for anxiety knows of my situation and made it clear that it was important for me to have told him. I sent him an email giving the specifics of his behavior and how it has affected her before they met. Although he agreed that it is a toxic environment and that I should consider leaving before she graduated high school, he said that “I do not need to demonize him in order to justify my leaving and that the narc may very well be a loving and caring individual.” I was dumb founded because he has known about my husband for many years, I could not stop crying and then I got pissed. It was almost as if he did not believe me and thought I was exaggerating. I thought he of all people would understand; LESSON LEARNED.
It can be so lonely dealing with narc abuse at any stage and I appreciate your comments as they reinforced why I need to keep my mouth shut, unless it is on this blog!
Well stated.
Kristin, Thank you for sharing this and I am sorry you faced this judgement from your therapist. I am learning that this form of denial/judgement is not an uncommon response by therapists or anyone who is unfamiliar with the very real damage that narcissistic abuse inflicts. Further, few outside the N/E dynamic would recognize what we describe as abuse since the narcissist’s facade and plausibility deniability is so very effective. The lack of understanding from others, especially those you seek help from, can be very upsetting and cause further isolation. You are wise to trust your instincts. Here you have found the most accurate information here, and a body of people that have experienced what you have (some form of narcissistic abuse). We care. We understand. We know the truth. Your progress here has impressed me and I have no doubt you will prevail.
FYC,
“Further, few outside the N/E dynamic would recognize what we describe as abuse since the narcissist’s facade and plausibility deniability is so very effective.” You hit the nail on the head! When I was reading your comments, something registered, if it took me 28 years to realize what I was living with why in the world should I expect anyone else to believe that he is, in fact, a narc?! The facade that the rest of the world sees is quite convincing and they probably don’t want to see the truth, they want to believe the lie that is the narc.
The isolation one feels can be quite debilitating. I cling to my faith in God and absorb as much as I can from this site and completely rely on the amazing support of you and others.
Your kind words brought tears to my eyes. I have most definitely made progress that even surprises me but it is still all I can do to get through the day since he is always around. Today is one of those days where leaving seems insurmountable and I have to step back and try to think with logic. I literally tell myself that I don’t have to leave in order to ease my fears and gain control. We all know this is ET and, for me, I think it all boils down to one thing, I am overwhelmed, completely spent after so many years and have very little fight left in me. I know from reading about the experiences of others, that comes with the territory and am encouraged that they moved forward and are in a much better place.
Thank you again, FYC. Hopefully, others will learn from my mistake and realize the truth of what you said.
“Here you have found the most accurate information here, and a body of people that have experienced what you have (some form of narcissistic abuse). We care. We understand.”
xx
Kristin, Indeed, how would they know? They do not, and they cannot. I have been surrounded by Ns all my life yet no one knew. I did not know what narcissism was. I was locked in confusion and denial because I literally had no other frame of reference. Even when I learned about narcissism, I did not want to believe it, but I could not deny the similarities to the toxic behaviors I have dealt with for so many years. I am confident and capable in the other areas of my life. I have always been considered “the strong one” the “one that takes no crap” and “the one that can do anything” by those who know me. One would think I could deal with my Ns (as if that were possible). But, I could not. I made a Herculean effort for some number of years, but I failed. The deck is stacked against the empath. I saw a therapist, but she had no understanding of what I was dealing with so I did not continue. I searched far and wide for answers.
Finding KTN was a pivotal point. I kept coming back. I wanted to be certain. I wanted to know the truth. I found it so strange that HG knew so much about my Ns (when in reality, all Ns have similar behaviors that spring from the same defense). I wanted to know what my solution would be. I wanted to make peace with all I was learning. I struggled with total acceptance at first because I care and I felt badly for the Ns since I see all sides. Eventually I realized the truth of the N defense: it is complete. There can be no better outcome. Any attempt to find a healthy existence with an N will be thrown into upheaval, simply because to do so delivers Fuel and Control. Every single interaction is all about Fuel and Control (and character trait acquisition and residual benefits are the icing on the cake). The only answer is to get out and stay out. Now, I am ultra minimal contact. HG is the only N I remain in daily contact with via the blog. This remains because the blog helps me and because I want to give back and because I value and respect so many people here. I will go a long way in support of HG’s work; it truly has the potential to change everything in so many ways.
Kristin, I know you are feeling at a low point, but in truth, you display an amazing amount of strength. You are deep in the emotional sea in a small dingy being pummeled by waves of abuse and emotion (please do read the crossing of the emotional sea). Keep paddling. Don’t give up. I am waiving at you on the the shores of No Contact. I care. I know you will make it. You have great reserves of untapped strength you have yet to discover, but they are there all the same. Once you accept what you have to do to live a healthy, peaceful life, you can let go of guilt. You choose. Doing so does not change the fact that you loved/love your N, you simply know with certainty that you choose healthy over toxic. This may also give you a measure of peace. Life is meant to be a gift not a misery.
Try to spend some time in nature every day. Take a walk. Notice your breathing. Push away all of the pain and noise in your mind. This will give you peace in the moment. You deserve this. When you are ready, map out your plans. Commit to taking a small action every day towards your goals. Prepare carefully. Don’t get caught up in your emotions of the day, just feel them and let them pass. Duck under the emotional waves and let them pass. Taking an action every day literally helps your brain grow new neural pathways. It also reinforces your ability and control. You choose, you act, you move forward. Visit KTN daily or read one of HG’s books or listen to a logic bulletin. Just do what you can. Every positive change you make matters. You will succeed, and I will celebrate your brave success from afar. You’ve got this. It’s not easy, but so very, very worthwhile. I am here everyday if you ever need a reminder or an ear from someone who cares. Sending you a big hug.
FYC,
I cannot imagine being surrounded by narcs my whole life. Since you were always considered the strong one, it just goes to show how powerful narcissism. Despite the fact that the toxic behavior can be so obvious, I suppose being an empath precludes us from accepting what is right in front of our face. I believe that being abused for so long makes it difficult for us to see the truth (despite being truth seekers) because we were conditioned to doubt ourselves and just survive. It is certainly a process and as I am learning, it cannot be rushed, every step needs to be “felt” and dealt with before you can move ahead.
I appreciate you sharing your story about everything you have encountered and thank you for getting me back on track. I have read Crossing the Emotional Sea but obviously need to read it again. Your tips on dealing with the daily ups and downs has really helped me and I will take those to heart and apply them.
“Don’t get caught up in your emotions of the day, just feel them and let them pass.” Very wise words and something I need to continue to remind myself of because it is so easy to get in my head. You are a blessing, truly. Many thanks. 😘
FYC
Your comment is ASTOUNDING. I’m nominating it for ‘Comment of the Month’. Yes, Ive just invented that.
Let the waves of emotion wash over you. Yes. Absolutly.
It’s so very easy to allow ourselves to be dragged down by the sea. Indeed, I caught myself on today.
My ex. Wanted to see me to give me money. I couldn’t face it. I was sick to my stomach with nerves and anxiety. So I called it off. But more than that. I had dreamt about him this morning. Nothing bad. I dreamt of a festival we went too. Then I dreamt of my laptop. On the desktop were folders of emails he had been sending to other people..
I just couldn’t face it. And I like to think I am very brave.
I once stood up to a psychopath whilst he attempted to throttle me whilst my children ate their tea in the next room.
It is small steps. And this site is terrific for giving support.
Thank you FYC
So true! When I tell people, usual response is that I am abnormal and have to cool down. Very lonely world indeed…
lidija87,
Wow, I cannot imagine someone telling me that I was the abnormal one. I would have been tempted to go off and defend myself which would have only perpetuated their view of the situation. Such a sad state of affairs that reinforces why we need this site and the support provided.
But that’s crazy, I need to talk to someone about all this in order to sort it out, in order to find a way. Maybe it actually is my fault to some degree, I feel I could have and should have done things differently. And what to do next, how to behave? It’s like I’m in a huge scary maze and don’t know where to go next. Nothing in my life was real, last 10 years are just a fiction, this can’t be true….. just can’t!
Lucia:
When you are dealing with Narcissists, there is no right way.
Look up Calvinball, because that’s what you’re playing, although you were never so informed.
Lucia,
I spent so much time accepting the blame of what happened or at least thinking that maybe had I only made different choices along the way.
Then I finally realized that it didn’t matter what I chose it was ALL *wrong* in the eyes of the narcissist.
One thing I did come to realize was that I had given it my all (in terms of bettering the relationship or situation) and I simply had nothing left to give. Not a thing. Not an ounce more.
And I felt similarly to what you feel now: what is this big, crazy mess that I find myself in despite all my best intentions? How can this be?
And then I knew it wasn’t me. The problem wasn’t me.
My own nature is not to reach out for help – in the dynamic this was bad for me because I was so determined to find my own solution since I believed that I got myself, somehow, in this horrible crazy circumstance.
So I left. And I mean I left everything behind.
Even my cat. Although I did collect him later.
I am not saying this is the best reaction for everyone.
But being separate from the narcissist allowed me to start to see more clearly.
I just wish I , at the time, how to actually ask for help. Because I truly felt like it was my own doing and that nobody could ever possibly understand what I was going through.
It was a very lonely feeling.
WhoCare I hear you, I understand what you’ re telling me…… It’s not that much of a guilt but more the feelings of responsibility. We all have responsibility to ourselves, to our kids…. I feel like I failed us all, even my husband. I can’t just pick up my stuff and leave all of a sudden. That would’t be fair to anyone. We have life together, obligations, friends, families. And where to go, this is my house, my kids house. It will take time….Sometimes I think the best solution would be for him to discard me, just go away, find someone new….
Lucia,
I have wished the same.
So why wont they? He obviously have at least one IPSS, he can easily promote her and just go!!!
Yes Lucia, I completely understand the feelings of responsibility. The feelings of obligation and the feeling of having failed your family – been there, done that, got the T-shirt – NOT to make light of the decisions you are faced with…but a sense of responsibility is a very good quality – except in the hands of a narcissist. Narcissists will exploit an empath’s sense of responsibility to the maximum, and then some.
Why do you think he was drawn to you? Partly because your sense of responsibility would cause you to hang in there, to make choices in the best interest of your family and your children – and now to immobilize you.
I have been a “responsible” person all my life. My sense of responsibility kept me hanging in there too, in my relationship, and made me believe that I was making choices in everyone’s best interest and were the ‘right’ thing to do.
Until I realized that I had a responsibility to protect myself and my child from further damage. Whatever responsibility I still felt for him was trumped by my responsibility to do right by my child who did not ask to be brought into that dynamic.
Yes, I needed to make things right – but that was never going to happen within the confines of the relationship.
Again I am not suggesting that you do what I did – in fact I am glad to hear that you’re consulting with HG.
If I had had the option to ‘escape’ in a more graceful manner, and with guidance, I would have welcomed it.
That’s why I feel huge relief that HG’s work exists and that people like you – and Kristin – can talk with him and priotize etc.
Truthfully, I just wish for you to be gentle with yourself Lucia while you absorb information and analyze your part and contributions to your situation.
WhoCares, I know you are right about everything, I’m just not there yet, not ready yet…
Thanks again for all your time, patience and sincere advise, I do appreciate it more than I can express. Hope you are feeling well!
Lucia,
You’re welcome…and thank-you.
I recognize how daunting the future looks at this juncture for you and I am sure you will figure out the best way to proceed.
Sending you thoughts of strength and clarity. 💜
Dear WhoCares, I hope you don’t mind my observation, but I can’t help but remember our earliest conversation here on the blog and the sharp contrast to what I am reading today. What an amazing difference. I am so proud of your strength and courage and determination. Your dedication to your son’s wellbeing and your own is laudable and admirable. You have come so far and you continue to blossom. I can only imagine your life one year from now. I am so impressed. You are a shining example of keeping your grace and wits while overcoming something so difficult and most people will never understand. I am so happy for you. Well done.
FYC,
Thank-you for taking the time to write that. I appreciate an onlooker’s observation, especially yours.💜 When I am worn down I don’t see the improvement so clearly. I wrote the words I am sharing with Lucia because I can absolutely identify that state of confusion and paralysis, yet dawning realization AND the wanting to fall back into old patterns (i.e. it’s all my fault, what could *I* have done/said/chose differently to avoid this outcome – and in the context of a narcissististic entanglement – the answer is: nothing.) And when I write the words to her, the words are also resonating internally for me and I do feel the strength in them.
Sometimes I wish I could go into more detail about what my reality was like at the end of my entanglement – not to seek sympathy – but just to say, yes, if I could find strength within to extricate myself from that mess, then surely you can too. Sometimes there are very real constraints and barriers to moving forward and sometimes those barriers are an illusion we have fully bought into.
We empaths often judge ourselves harshly, and personally, I still see where I want to be in the future as a fair distance away, but you’re right: where and what I came from to get to this moment is significant. And when I am having daily struggles, I do remind myself of this fact. But it super nice to see it recognized by another, so thank-you.
I just wish I could save all the wasted energy Lucia might spend on self-blame and ‘what if’s’ so that she can focus it on bettering her situation. Sometimes the words “It’s not your fault”, when spoken at the right time might have resonance and leave an impact.
I don’t know why but this makes me think back to early on in my legal process when I was getting legal advice on how to proceed. I was balking at some of the suggestions that I should go and research options for what I wanted (with regard to child access). I remember saying how if I do that in such an organized fashion then my ex will think I am doing it all on purpose. I had two women in the legal profession chime in, almost in stereo, and say “You’re no longer in the relationship. He doesn’t control you anymore.”
He. Doesn’t. Control. Me. Anymore.
The sense of freedom in those timely words were mind-blowing and the relief hit me like a ton of bricks. I just wish, for others, to find that same sense of freedom.
Well deserved, WC, and you are now the one in control, and your future is bright. I think you did an excellent job “as is” in your counsel. It was very well stated and well advised. Sometimes when we share with others, they need time to process the information. They may not yet be ready to receive it or act upon it, but at a later time, they will recall your empathy and advice and it will make a difference. We never know the magnitude of ripples we leave in the waters of others. You made a difference, and I know you will continue to do so with empathy, wisdom and your own experience.
Oops. Sorry for the duplication.
Kick him out! Keep your kids and your house, and narc can go!
Make a plan to get out or make a plan to stay, Lucia.
Now that you are Narc Aware, your decisions *are* your responsibility, even the hoping/waiting for the Narc to leave you. Better to consciously be responsible.
I highly suggest you consult with HG to see how to best plan.
Lisk, thanks for advise. I know its my responsibility to decide for both me and my kids. It’s complicated, though. I guess it’s complicated and difficult decision for everyone. I’ve consulted HG, hope he’ll help me sort out this mess.
Lucia,
First and foremost, this is NOT your fault and there is nothing you can do or could have done to change the fact that your husband is a narc. Please do not blame yourself for not realizing it sooner. I believe our minds protect and prevent us from being overwhelmed and that means not seeing the reality of certain situations until we are able to handle the truth. I pleaded and begged for my narc husband to stop the abuse for over 28 years. I tried changing myself and my attitude to no avail. The abuse not only continued but got worse. You are at a pivotal crossroad and it is normal to feel blindsided, who wouldn’t after 8 years?
You absolutely need to talk to someone about all of this or you will breakdown, I am speaking from experience. You will gain more insight and help from one hour with HG than in six months of therapy. He is easy to talk to and you will feel so much better. If consulting with him is not an option, take advantage of the email consult. He the narc extraordinaire, he knows how they think and who better to work with than the one who knows. Amazingly, he also knows how victims feel and how their minds operate based on a simple questionnaire. This is something you will not find elsewhere and you will be amazed at what you learn about yourself.
Finally, and not to overwhelm you any more than you already are, continue to reach out on this blog. Everyone can relate in some way and you are not alone. Read if you haven’t already, FYC’s and mctrhiver’s comments a few before mine, they explain it so well and have really helped me as have others. My heart goes out to you.
Thanks, you’ve all been very helpful. It would be nice of you to advise me on how to stay with him until the kids are a bit older and not go completely crazy. But I know you can’t. I did consult HG though, so we’ll see what his opinion would be.
Kristin—my oldest brother is mild mannered and supports the little I’ve said. My other one seems irritated that “we (as adults) can’t get along.” He zips it but I can see him steaming. It’s not even viable to rant with him on narcissism. And this is family. But—one thing is clear to me, at the end of the day if my ex ever made the mistake of uttering a rude word to me or my oldest child (say at a future wedding) in proximity of my brother he would probably make that stupid fuck piss his drawers. He’s a coward. My brother is not. Yet, he would have to see it to render action. For now, I’m just a hysterical brat. People have to form their own conclusions and I’ve not had a solid platform of appearing reasonable to my brother based on some historical stuff including a prior divorce.
Lorelei,
Sometimes you can talk till you’re blue in the face and they still don’t get it and may never get it. You are the logical one and have the knowledge and experience to back it up but like you said, people have to form their own conclusions. It can be very frustrating and a test of patience for sure.
Kristin—If it makes you feel any better I wasn’t treated particularly well by an individual in the same profession. I basically told him he was a narcissist this past month. I described his behavior (no mention of narcissism per se—although he knows what was implied) because he pissed me off. Holy F—it went on for a week. Calls, texts, emails—he can psychiatrically fuck off.
Lorelei,
Thank you for your reply and providing yet another example of how society is blind to the prevalence of narcs and the damage that ensues once entangled by them. Just so discouraging that this is so often the case. I laughed a bit when you had the courage to imply that he was a narcissist, I totally understand! It is exasperating and I just want to knock them upside the head and say “don’t you get it?” Now that my mom is a fan of HG, she too is seeing it in people she has known forever.
I was so surprised that my children’s doctor responded in the way that he did. We think the world of him and he has been a life saver for my children, however, his remark was totally unnecessary and I will not mention it again. I fired off an emotional email defending my case but later apologized because I cannot afford to burn bridges and my kids need him.
This may sound a bit crazy, but I feel like we all belong to an exclusive group that shares knowledge and a common bond that only we understand.
Agree 100% Kristin—and I didn’t state these assertions blindly. This man is an arrogant fuck hiding under a facade. It will always annoy him because when he sees me he will want to talk—I’ll never look at him again. Basically I challenged but the end result will be wounding. The challenge had to come first. Therein lies the power. He, as I said, can fuck off. Many nice people fail to get it—how can they? My friend is a great example and please forgive me—please because I’m a potty mouth but some things make me upset to hear or say. I’m quoting/or more likely paraphrasing. Apologize. She is an executive and the husband is a detective, neither a total idiot. (He’s close) He refused to have sex with her for ten years until the divorce. (He had affairs)
He actually got up in the middle of sex and said, “Since the kids your hole is just too big.” SHE thinks he’s a nice guy and just got bored. Kristin—he threw her on the ground one time when she found affair related material. She is mistaking moments of (limited—he’s not high up there as you can see) cognitive empathy for him being a “basically nice guy.” Even my ex-husband would not articulate something so foul to me. But of huge importance is to not judge or assess another’s tolerance for bullshit. My friend has ran hospitals. She is a grade A bitch at times. I am very intense at times but generally more passive. But don’t think I haven’t nailed people either. There is a door mat connotation to empaths on here at times that is not accurate entirely. We get salami sliced into a passive reactive survival strategy. This survival mechanism allows the addiction to stay in a state of being fed.
I think that this is good advice, on the whole, although I have found that limiting to talking through the experience of living with a narc with a small number of people close to me initially and attending a support group has really helped me to get through the first few months since leaving.
A few months on and I have far less need to do so, and feel generally better in myself if I am not thinking or talking about the narc, combined with strict no contact, of course.
Mcthriver
You’re already ahead in recognizing the situation for what it is and determining that No Contact is the route for you. I don’t know the ages of your children and that may affect your level of influence at this stage. One thing’s for sure – if he does cause them to turn their backs on him eventually (and that is not your cross to bear) they still have an understanding and loving mom to turn to. Best to you.
Thank you Narcangel 😚
I am going to “vent my spleen” for better or worse. Anyone who disagrees can, quite frankly, respond or not – it’s up to you and I cannot and don’t want to control what others think or say. I’m saying what ‘I’ think.
HG, your site has undergone some big changes over the past three or four years since I first found it and learned from it. It is now quite different from how it used to be, both visually and educationally. As you say, it does look more “sexy” and I’m sure, to the first-time observer, it looks more polished and professional too. To me though, it looks less accessible than it used to, and I am so immensely glad that I ‘found’ you when I did, which was when it was in the early stages and still growing.
Congratulations on being “The World’s No 1 Resource on Narcissism” if that is what you were aiming to be all along. Being ‘No 1’ is quite an achievement and, no doubt it reinforces your ambition of having a ‘legacy’.
I don’t visit or comment on the site as frequently as I used to because – as a victim of long-term narcissistic abuse – it doesn’t help me as much as it used to.
In the early days of finding your site, I learned a lot from your articles and explanations and I also greatly benefited from learning about the honestly described and heartfelt experiences of others as well as the truly empathic, generous and varied responses and advice from other readers. There was less praise for your ‘ultra’ unbeatable magnificence as a narcissist. There was also much less ‘flying monkey’ type of defensive (and annoying) shielding of you by your persistent ‘fans’ here.
Instead, there was a greater variety of debate and ideas and more freedom to speak honestly. There seemed to be a common understanding that both praise and criticism of you, as well as more open and understanding tolerance of others, was allowed and encouraged with the aim of making everyone feel welcome regardless of their opinions, views and experiences.
I sincerely doubt that I would feel the same kind of gratitude for your site and your helpfulness if I stumbled upon your site now. The majority of commenters on the site now don’t strike me as truly empathic. Instead, I feel they are here to beat your drum for you and/or display and show off their own narcissistic traits as though being narcissistic is some kind of virtuous achievement. As I said though, to each their own and if that’s what they want to do, they are free to do it and I’m not saying this to stand in their way.
It just saddens me that some of the more empathic commenters from several years ago are gone and any new victims learning about narcissism for the first time will not benefit from reading honest and eye-opening “letters to the narcissist” or truly helpful, validating and touching comments of assistance. I know that those things helped me enormously to find my own true voice and feel encouraged and motivated enough to add my own honest views and to help others.
But hey, you’re ‘No 1’ in the world now according to your perspective, so sincerely, Congratulations! 🥂
WiserNow,
I have been here a little over a year and have also seen the change.
However, if I were to come here now for the first time, I think I would still benefit greatly and read on for dear life. The valuable, helpful, and free information has not gone away. (Maybe HG can create a Letters to the Narcissist drop-down.)
As for the comments section, I can still find good stuff there, even though HG has changed the dynamic a bit. Would it be a turn-off if I was just starting here? No way. The “You are an Appliance” article is the one that hooked me first,and I needed no comments for that to happen. I still return to it when ET rears its ugly head.
I’d add this. Less than 1% of readers are moved to comment. Most are here to read. Numerous readers still read but do not comment any longer, who used to, and they occasionally email me instead. They’re still there reading.
Lisk and HG,
I understand what you’re both saying and I agree that the site is still very helpful and the information is still very valuable. If people are interested enough, they’ll delve into the earlier posts and comments and read as extensively as they want to.
I know my comment sounds like a criticism and that’s not entirely the message I wanted to convey. I guess I see the new look and the fewer commenters that I don’t recognise and I miss the way it used to be and the commenters that are no longer here. It feels different to me now with a different vibe – less warm and personal. It feels to me that the conversations are less engaging than they used to be.
With an increase in size, there is a decrease in intimacy, I think. It was the intimacy and the honesty in the comments that helped me greatly in relation to feeling validated and genuinely ‘heard’. The conversations and discussions that took place in the commentary were as important to me as the articles and/or consults, sometimes moreso. That’s my personal observation and impression. I value a sense of intimacy and engagement to revive a psychologically fragile and confused state of mind after narcissistic abuse more than the fact that the site is now followed by millions of readers and has a ‘No 1’ status.
As HG says, there are many more readers than there are commenters, however, I think readers who are just starting to learn about narcissism would benefit from reading posts and comments that span the last few years. So if anybody is new to the site, go back in time and read the posts and comments from previously. You will learn a lot that way and strengthen your resilience by hearing about the insights and experiences of others.
That’s a fair enough observation. Much is of course perception and it’s the nature of the beast that you’ll form a connection with certain readers and not others and if the former move on having achieved what they wanted you may feel somewhat ‘cut adrift’ . Whilst the blog grows and its primary function in the delivery of effective information will always continue, the calibre of comments is within the gift of those commenting and assessing that is highly subjective.
“the calibre of comments is within the gift of those commenting and assessing that is highly subjective.”
I treasure the deeper, intimate and honest exchanges I have had here with past and present commenters. I also treasure many lighter moments of banter with past and present commenters.
At any one given time, on the blog, there can be more or less of one type or the other.
I don’t think it’s a disservice to new people recently out of entanglement or still there in the middle of it to encounter both types here – in my opinion it is nice to know that lightness, laughter, silliness etc., still exist after narcissistic abuse. I have had too many moments when I thought I would never feel those kinds of things again.
A real life empathic friend of mine and I check in with each other periodically. When we aren’t stressed by the fallout of our entanglements and the subjects of financial struggles, single parenting struggles and legal struggles don’t permeate our conversation – sometimes we notice and say “Wow, we just had a “normal” conversation – wasn’t that lovely?”
Balanced.
WiserNow,
I do agree the comment section feels less intimate.
But after having progressed as far as I have, I no longer desire that same intimacy. Sometimes I have felt myself wallowing instead of moving forward. I think this is mainly due to reading HG’s material as well as consulting with him.
In fact, I intend to graduate soon, perhaps to come back on occasion for alumni visits!
Well done Lisk, on your progress and your intention to graduate. That’s great! I’m happy for you and I know how much of a personal achievement that is.
The only thing that really bothere me is YouTube. He really put aside that platform. For me, his channel was, and still is, no 1..live Q&A, the TTI Friday…. Miss that. And for the look of blog, really don’t care, I am here to read, ads, no ads, black, white, don’t care.
There is work re Youtube which will appear this year. You can access a Live Q&A here, there have been two recently.
Hello WN, I am disappointed to read your comment on the negative changes you feel have taken place over time. I have read many of your exchanges over the past two years, and we have had our own thought provoking conversations here amidst the comments over the past two years. Many of your comments over that time frame have been impactful to readers and they expressed their sincere appreciation for your input. This cannot be discounted simply because you are feeling uncomfortable with a new marketing approach or the praises sung by HG’s enthusiastic followers.
I am not bothered by the praise HG receives as he is due his recognition. In fact, I cheer his efforts on, not as a “flying monkey,” but as a loyal supporter whose life is forever changed by the content of HG’s work. I honestly could never lose my gratitude. That said, I can see why you were glad to have that “golden period” on the blog–a time when the exchange may have felt more personal or intimate. In reading the archives, this is evident, but it is not likely sustainable given the exponential growth here. As you are well aware, as a veteran commenter, the tone and contribution of those who visit changes over time. This is to be expected and I do not judge the content of the comments unless they are destructive or misinformed. I too enjoy meaningful exchanges, but in truth, I have also learned from off-topic comments as well as been entertained by them.
I do not personally perceive any degradation of the overall content of this site. There will always be different personalities that make up the greater mosaic of the blog, but I believe this enhances the experience. I am grateful for the participation of all commenters, and especially so for a select few that I treasure on a regular basis. This has not changed over my two year tenure here. As for the comments that I find objectionable, I either ignore them or respond if I feel compelled. Ultimately, I think there is a place for all things. Regardless, I find that KTN is the best place for education on narcissism and I would agree that HG is the number one source for accuracy and breadth of information. If he feels good about that, good for him. What is more important is that those who are victims of N abuse and those who have never been understood as an Es will find exactly what they need here. As a commenter, you play a part in that. I hope you’ll stay and keep an open mind to allow for the ebbs and flows of this unique place and your new place in the mix.
Constructive and balanced, well stated FYC.
Thank you FYC. With respect though, you are entitled to your views as am I and there is no need for you to vigorously defend HG or the blog at all times or to debate and contradict every opinion that doesn’t cast HG or the blog in a spotlessly shining light. It’s overbearing and also, unrealistic. It doesn’t actually do the blog any long-term favours.
Let things be. Let the quality and variety stand for itself. Allow the negativity as well as the positivity. I think HG and the blog can withstand both.
You expressed your opinion, FYC has expressed hers. You now seek to invalidate her entitlement to do so by labelling her opinion as “unrealistic” and “overbearing” which is, more opinion from you. You even state “you are entitled your views” and in the “next breath” contradict yourself. Do you regard it as fair that you may make an observation but she may not? If she had agreed with your observation would you have written “Thank you FYC, with respect though, you do not need to agree with me.”?
You bemoaned a lack of intimacy. That is a subjective perception. You are of course entitled to express it, but it does not mean that it is based against anything that can be measured.How did you arrive at that conclusion? Did you go through all comments since the inception of the blog and measure them against some scale of intimacy to make a determination that there has been a reduction of intimacy? It is your view and you may express that view, as may others and others may also do so in a more forensic manner.
You opined that the quality (again a subjective observation) of the comments would/might be off-putting to new readers. Let’s put that in some meaningful context:-
1. As I explained, less than 1% of readers comment. Undoubtedly a higher percentage will read the comments, but given the very low number who do comment, that suggests that most people come for the articles and information, not the comments. If more were influenced by the comments, we would see more observations appearing in the comments , and
2. The inference from (1) is supported by the fact that reader numbers and hits continue to increase. Therefore, the content of the comments is either irrelevant (because as suspected most people do not read them) or has no impact (if they do read them). That is evidence.
By all means offer your observations, they are always welcome, but as I have repeatedly explained, be prepared for people to disagree with you and for it to be pointed out that it the opinion may not be a well-founded one.
Thank you for your contributions.
Oy vey.
In all fairness, I haven’t really defended HG, who doesn’t need it. I just like ripping into the trolls.
Violetta, right? We need another mid to throw some yo moma jokes at. I don’t like it when we fight amongst ourselves.
Mercy:
It also gives me editing practice. We all make typos (including me), but the flaws in content are what make troll posts so amusing.
WiserNow
I completely understand where you’re coming from and agree with much that you say. But change is the one constant in life. Nothing will ever stay the same for us. I don’t think it’s possible. And what’s not as good for us may well be better for others.
We just have to keep moving forward and accept change as an inescapable fact of life. Be grateful for help we have received and continue to support those around us.
Your friend always,
Windstorm
Thank you Windstorm. It’s lovely to hear from you and, by the way, I count you as one of the people who helped change my emotional thinking in a truly deep and empathic way when I first found HG’s blog. I am forever grateful to you for that. It meant a great deal to me.
Yes, change is inevitable and we can’t live in the past and moving forward is a good thing. My comment was an observation and also a suggestion that “big” doesn’t always mean “better”. Also, “No 1” can be viewed in a number of different ways according to someone’s perception.
Thanks again Windstorm, and please know that I am your friend always too xx
WN:
I’m late to this party, so I can’t speak to the Golden Age of Narcsite. I can say that it has expanded in the short time I’ve been on here, and there are more monetized products.
There are still a zillion free articles and recordings out there, but newcomers don’t usually know where to start. This is where longtime Tudorites can make them welcome while remaining an important part of the conversation.
If you’ve dealt with a physically abusive narc or a perpetual cheater, you can refer people dealing with similar issues to the articles or YT recordings you found most useful. Ditto for messy divorces and custody battles.
“Why Does the Narcissist Blow Hot and Cold?” finally broke Wannabe Playuh-Narc’s hold on me; “Am I the Narcissist?” and “Crazy” helped me process how a gaslighting school system and a quack shrink who covered up my parents’ situation made me vulnerable to someone like WBPN in the first place: of course I was programmed to question myself first. I would recommend those selections to anyone who was constantly faulted not just for actions, but also for thoughts: i.e., if you don’t do anything wrong but have committed some kind of Thoughtcrime, you deserve everything bad that happens to you. Normal people don’t get treated like this. It’s your Attitude.
Remember: we all have a common goal. We want to stop narcs from doing what they do. Some people may do it out of compassion for others; I want revenge, and what better way to get it than denying them their fix? HG wants his legacy and probably is affronted on some level by the fact that all those inferior narcs out there would even contemplate poaching on his turf.
For various reasons, we all want narcs stopped from doing what they do, so making sure that as many people as possible are informed will enable those people to identify and resist narcs’ efforts to do it.
Violetta,
“There are still a zillion free articles and recordings out there, but newcomers don’t usually know where to start. This is where longtime Tudorites can make them welcome while remaining an important part of the conversation”
This is a good point. And and I think it also pertains to the paid logic bulletins & assistance packages. After having accessed some it is clear that they target particular issues surrounding narcissististic entanglement and can actually save an empath time and money if they know which particular ones are most pertinent to their situation. Waiting and/or paying for a consultation can be prohibitive for some – although I have witnessed HG accommodating urgent consultation needs and there is the AAF.
Wisernow
What I got from your comment was your disappointment and frustration at the current crop of commenters not being more aligned to your way of thinking. There are still articles and explanations as well as many “truly empathic, generous, and varied responses”. Varied being the key word there. Varied meaning that there will be responses that do not always gel with your way of thinking, but that also do not warrant labels like “flying monkeys” or being described as “displaying narcissistic traits as some virtuous achievement”. Those were good examples of less than empathic comments and you made them yourself. As far as I am aware, everyone’s comments are posted within the rules so that leaves only those who are commenting that changes and there is no control over who shows up when and at what stage. You said the site doesn’t help you as much as it used to. Perhaps having the knowledge you have attained here has precipitated that change as well as those who used to comment but have moved on for various reasons – many having to do with personal reasons in their own life and not necessarily anything to do with the blog. You may not feel the camaraderie that you once felt with others previously but I’m not sure that’s reason to blame the blog or chastise people for their views regarding HG. For the record, there are some things that annoy me here as well but they have nothing to do with how the blog is run. I decide what I respond to or don’t and what debates I decide to weigh in on. We all have the same choices without blaming the vehicle itself that allows it. Freedom to speak honestly? I believe that still exists as you just exercised it. As have I.
Very well stated, NA, I formed the view that I would allow the readers to express their own observations to what WN has written. My stance has already been validated.
HG,
On the surface of things, you say you will “allow” the readers to express their own observations. That is very visibly commendable of you. Thank you.
As illustrated by the actual replies I received and the sentiments in those replies though, there was significantly more defensiveness than there was an attempt to understand or even openness for various points of view.
This is what I’m getting at. I didn’t say you shouldn’t be growing or changing. I didn’t say you shouldn’t be ‘No 1’. I didn’t say you weren’t helpful or valuable.
I said I miss the intimacy and engagement I used to feel. I also believe that the defensiveness of the blog in the comments section is not all that helpful (in general) with regard to new victims of narcissistic abuse.
WN,
It is not the surface of things. I do allow people to express their observations. I disagreed with your observation (as I have now explained in greater detail in a separate comment) and I also allow everybody to express their views, should they wish to.
Is it defensiveness or is it disagreement? I suggest it is the latter.
“This is what I’m getting at. I didn’t say you shouldn’t be growing or changing. I didn’t say you shouldn’t be ‘No 1’. I didn’t say you weren’t helpful or valuable.” – is this defensiveness on your part because somebody has disagreed with you or is it you expressing your view further. Just like someone who disagrees with you is expressing their view.
“I said I miss the intimacy and engagement I used to feel.” That is your view, you may state as such. Understand others may disagree with you and some may agree with you.
“I also believe that the defensiveness of the blog in the comments section is not all that helpful (in general) with regard to new victims of narcissistic abuse.” See my response to your other comment where such a belief is not supported by the growth in readership.
Once again, you are welcome to express your views. So is everybody else. They may agree with you and they may also disagree with you. Disagreement is as much their right to comment as it is yours and does not equate to being over-bearing, over-protective, defensive or similar descriptions.
I am pleased that people are advancing their views in a constructive manner without offensiveness.
It is disagreement with a load of defensiveness, including that of your own, HG.
It is in comments such as this where your insecurities shine through.
And it is quite unbecoming.
Better to pose as impartial judge.
No, it is called accuracy. My reply demonstrated that by recognising and distinguishing between perception and between evidence which demonstrated the inaccuracy of the observation.
It is a common mistake that is made that when I correct people as to the accuracy of something, they regard it as haughty, unpleasant or abrupt. I am actually providing the correct information or answer. That is why people ask so many questions.
It’s just not attractive, HG.
It’s accuracy.
Do you think it’s attractive to label people and then deny them the right to respond?
Of course not. However, I do not recall seeing any people-labeling or response-denial. (I’ll have time to reread later.(
Besides, you are the only one who can deny responses here and everyone knows it.
Do re-read and you’ll see it.
I reread, HG. I see description of behavior/method rather than labeling of the person deploying.
I cannot exactly speak for WiserNow, but somehow I doubt that she would label FYC or her later empathetic comment to Kristin as “overbearing.”
You’ve missed it.
If someone annoys someone, or something on here annoys someone don’t read it. It’s more about me anyway if you (you being anyone that irritates me) gets under my skin. My perception of another person doesn’t make them entirely useless either, not empathic & less deserving, or honing their own narcissism. I annoy people and have annoyed potentially you, NA, (NA has suggested as much before and it’s entirely ok) et. al,.. and I suggest others look to banter with who doesn’t grate their nerves. Nostalgia is common re, yesterday’s gifts, but there are many pots of gold ahead.
Lorelei
I don’t recall ever suggesting that you annoy me, so that may be a problem of perception. Much as people insisting that I am angry when I am not.
In other thoughts:
What a boring and unchanging world this would be if we did not allow the opinions and behaviours of others to poke at the convictions of our own, even if we don’t accept them in the end. I appreciate the diversity here.
NA:
Well, you know when there was a debate over Lorelei being a Narc, you, I, and a bunch of others all went Spartacus, so perhaps Lorelei felt we were challenging her uniqueness.
It’s like The Highlander–there can only be one.
V
Debate? Surely you jest. Also – I’m not familiar. There can only be one what?
Not to stir the pot, but I remember NA being supportive in that thread regarding Lorelei, and the only annoyance I recall was with regard to the inane comments accusing several commenters of being HG’s lieutenants. That said, I am not impartial. I tend to favor NA’s comments on the whole, even when we may have different views.
Hi NA. Violetta’s comment made me laugh! I honestly did think that, but it is hard to remember the pieces and parts of my short time here because I don’t feel I regained a more robust cognitive capacity until recently. It was like suddenly my lightbulbs came back on—maybe just around December? In fact, it was such a relief because I feel awake. Different than the awakening before—more clarity. I’m recognizing this is a pretty chronic situation as well. It’s pretty humbling indeed. I may be here quite awhile because I’m not able to make progress otherwise.
NA:
There can only be one Immortal Warrior. It was the tagline for the Highlander movie and the spinoffs.
V
Ah. Thank you. Poppycock to that.
Thanks for your reply NarcAngel.
As I said initially, my comment was all about what ‘I’ think and my intention was not to ruffle feathers or initiate a battle in defence of HG or the blog.
For the record:
– I am not disappointed or frustrated at the current crop of commenters not being more aligned to my way of thinking. Your observation, while understandable, is incorrect. I don’t need anyone to be ‘aligned’ to my way of thinking. What I meant was that I miss the intimacy and variety in all sorts of discussions and the openness and tolerance for all kinds of commenters. There was less ‘showboating’ (for lack of a better word) and less defensiveness.
– I think ‘flying monkeys’ is an apt term. You may not think so, and again, that’s fine. I don’t need you to agree with me. If HG’s blog is genuinely the world’s No 1 resource about narcissism and he has built up to almost 20 million readers, why would there be a need for him to have an army of resolute and immovable defenders ready to swoop on any breeze of negativity that blows in? Surely the value of HG’s advice and the quality of the blog speaks for itself?
– Sometimes for the sake of speaking honestly, there is a need to be less than 100% empathic. To make a point or an observation, it is almost impossible for any one person to be completely in sync with everyone who is reading. I’m not saying that I am 100% empathic.
– I think both you and I agree that the blog allows people to speak openly and honestly. We both have done so in the past and I welcome and enjoy that and I will exercise that freedom whenever I comment. I think though, that the unspoken impression is growing more and more that any so-called ‘negative’ comment will be immediately shot down by HG’s loyal fans and so, for casual readers, or younger readers, or new readers who don’t feel emotionally brave or resilient enough, they may not feel they actually do want to exercise that freedom. I think that is a shame and could also be harmful for the blog in the longer term.
Again, NarcAngel, thank you for your reply. My observation was just that, an observation – no more and no less. As I said, “I cannot and don’t want to control what others think or say. I’m saying what ‘I’ think.”
WiserNow,
I have greatly appreciated some of our exchanges in the past. And I do see what you mean about missing certain types of conversations – and people – from the past. As you put it: “honestly described and heartfelt experiences” and “truly empathic, generous and varied responses and advice from other readers”.
Is there a lack of these now? I don’t know; off the top of my head I can think of several current commenters who are like this. They may not be the same commenters you remember doing so before but there are some.
We will all experience nostalgia for certain conversations, people and topics during our initial exposure to the blog, that is natural. And as others have pointed out the ‘vibe’ here will change and shift as the community of commenters changes.
Maybe you are right: perhaps there is more praise for HG than at other times – but there are also more people frequenting the blog and more people implementing his work in their lives with positive results and those who have been long time readers are seeing further results and benefits that they derive from building upon their knowledge gained here.
Is the praise excessive? That is a matter of opinion. You singled out FYC as being “overbearing” in her praise and support of HG. Well, FYC is generous with her praise and support of many here on the blog – not only HG. I guess that could be viewed as problematic if one finds positivity and honesty “overbearing”. I find FYC to be a treasure – she balances her views and opinions with her knowledge of HG’s work and her (evident) knowledge of scientific and psychological literature elsewhere. That makes sense to me: if one has explored elsewhere and finds the learning here to be of higher value or confirmed in other venues – why not say so?
You said that some of the current commenters appear to beat HG’s drum for him or show off their own narcissistic traits “as though being narcissistic is some kind of virtuous achievement”. I do see some of what you are saying here but I do think that, historically, there has always been some similar commentary, it just plays out differently. (Part of it is that I think some of us are hypervigilant in indentifying what we view as exhibition of narcissistic behaviours.) I think that some of this behaviour is due to the need to recapture some remnants of confidence in displaying a particular person’s area of knowledge or expertise – or whatever – because their self-esteem had been so shot-down and trodden upon – especially over a long-term entanglement.
I will admit that there are some people (when I first came to the blog and currently) who, at first, appeared “one-dimensional” in certain ways and characteristics – until I stuck around and got to know them – with all their “faults” and strengths, and I am really glad that I have.
I do whole-heartedly agree with you that the “letter to the narcissist” series was a really nice feature that is “honest and eye-opening” and a window into an individual’s experience. But they are still there to access in the archives. (Funnily enough, I was reading some of them just before you posted your opinion on the current state of the blog.)
I think the community of commenters will likely always change and even the needs of long-standing commenters will change – plus their ability to “give” to the conversations here in response to the demands of their lives elsewhere.
Well stated.
WhoCares
Great points. The Letter to the Narcissist series was excellent and gave examples of the different experiences and thinking behind the personality of some. That probably did feel more intimate, although they were not without their problems. Even some of those were afforded criticism which was unimaginable to me. They are still available and the reading of them encouraged. It would be nice to know how those people feel today. That’s one of the reasons I love when people pop in after being away. I love to hear of their release and growth.
Thanks NarcAngel.
Wouldn’t it be nice to have past letter writers do a current letter or an update; because you’re right, some people have experienced huge positive changes or completely reworked how they view their narcissist or Narcissism now.
I do receive numerous responses from people returning and expressing their gratitude for the help they have received, how my work has ensured they have moved forward and how they have found freedom and how much better they are across so many spheres of their lives. Of course I do not publish those as they are sent in confidence but there are numerous.
HG,
“I do receive numerous responses from people returning and expressing their gratitude…”
That is excellent to know HG. And some do make an effort to ‘stop in’ and comment about their progress.
I was thinking of a more orchestrated effort regarding follow-up letters.
But I do also recall that you intend to ‘respond’ to the letters?
Correct, WC.
Good to know, HG.
Most kind of you to share that, WhoCares, that touched my heart. Thank you. I did not feel WN’s reply to me merited my further comment. It seemed to be more of an ad hominem attack that severed more as a projection of what lies within WN, than as a valid argument based on any demonstrable evidence.
WhoCares and FYC,
For the sake of accuracy and being specific, please go back to my earlier reply to FYC. I did not say that FYC was ‘overbearing’ in general as a person. I said that her continual and pointed defence of HG/the blog was overbearing. My comment was not intended to be personal in terms of FYC as a person in general.
I meant that in the sense that we are all adults here with our own views and experiences. If I have a view about something, or if someone else has a view about something, we don’t necessarily need to be instantly chastised or debated with as though our views are innately false or without merit.
And now, FYC, you *have* made this personal by saying that my ‘attack’ (how ironic) was an ‘ad hominem projection’?? Really? I think your response in defence of HG – both to me and in other instances – are more of what you would call “ad hominem attacks”.
Also, your statement that my opinion is not a “valid argument based on demonstrable evidence”? Are we in a court of law here? If you are going to require “demonstrable evidence” every time someone exercises their ‘freedom of expression’, I think we’ll be debating for quite a while.
WiserNow,
I was specific. I know you were not stating FYC is overbearing as whole.
WN, Please look up the term. As for an ongoing debate, although you may desire this, you will not receive this from me. This will be my last comment to you. What you seem to miss is, my comments are my opinions (in this case of HG and his work and what it means to me). My expression of the same exercises the same right you claim for yourself. You stated your opinion and I stated mine. I was disappointed at your short-sighted view, not with regard to intimacy, but with regard to your negative characterization of other commenters. I also fail to see how such negative characterizations would foster the greater intimacy you seek. I was disappointed in your comment and response because I believed you possessed the capacity to hold a broader view. You have caused me do doubt such potential, but I hope this was just an example of your ET getting the better of you. I wish you well.
WN
Come on. Making that distinction about FYC is like when someone says: I didn’t SAY you were an asshole. I said you were ACTING like one. We all know what that means. FYC has been very respectful and helpful to many in her comments. So what if she extends that to HG? Ask yourself why that bothers you so much. She’s just speaking freely as you claim we are all able to do (but not really- just you). No need to insult. And about the earlier comment where you referred to some as “fans” exhibiting Flying Monkey type behaviour, annoying, and beating on drums? Yes, that’s your right and you have exercised it. Good for you, but how would you feel if people were so rude as to exercise theirs and describe your behaviour as petty, exacting, and controlling in your standards as to how people should react and what they should be able to say? You would likely refute that with your usual “Im entitled to my opinion and you are yours but you just can’t express yours” tactic. If you want to provoke by attaching labels and judgements on people you can expect the same. But strangely you don’t expect to accept the same behaviour you dish out. That seems a bit entitled.
Are you just in a bad place emotionally and felt the need to insult people because you feel disappointed in change? Change is hard for some. Most people just move on when that happens, they don’t use the vehicle to gain a better understanding for themselves and then take a dump on it for others on their way out. Why don’t you start a blog yourself? You can keep it small and intimate with those who are like-minded and weed out anything that displeases you. Wailing With Wiser seems an apt title.
Oh, btw – I didn’t SAY that you were petty, exacting, controlling, and entitled as a person. Just that you COULD be perceived that way by your comments.
See how that works. I bet you still don’t.
Do you feel better now NarcAngel? Now that you have had an opportunity to rant and rave?
Your suggestion for a blog name, “Wailing with Wiser” made me laugh out loud! hahahahahaha 😂😂😂 very funny!
I don’t ever wail though. I have been known to completely lose it and go on an angry rant on occasion, but wailing? No. Perhaps my blog could be called “Railing with Wiser” instead, even though it doesn’t have quite the same ring to it.
WN
There was no ranting and raving. I merely gave my thoughts and pointed out some things just as you did.
The difficulty with which you consistently fail to grasp that concept is staggering.
You flail more than rail, but do keep at it if that’s your goal.
NarcAngel,
My only ‘goal’ (if you can call it that) was to write a comment in order to express an opinion. That was it.
You on the other hand, clearly do have a ‘goal’ and that is to well and truly hound someone who *you* don’t agree with until you either chase them away or deter them from expressing their honest opinion again.
Do you ‘respect’ HG that much that you are willing to chase away any and all but flattering or benign comments? If so, you really don’t have that much genuine belief in his abilities and the quality of the blog in general.
FYC,
You’re welcome.
It is a true observation of your presence on the blog and interactions with many individuals, not just HG.
WhoCares, All the more reason why I am honored and sincerely moved by your comment. Thank you very much.
WiserNow – I understand what you are trying to say, as I have felt it myself. Funnily enough, I wrote in my diary the other day, that I feel I have lost “friends” from here. I really felt connection with some of the commentators and that feeling has mostly gone. The site is moving on, as things do in life, and I feel nostalgia for the “good old days” I suppose. I do not visit or comment as much because it is now more polished and impersonal, and for me, the comments were as important as the articles. There is also much more paid-for content, which locks you out of the community if you can’t or won’t pay for it. I understand HG has the absolute right to charge for his invaluable knowledge, and I do not begrudge him that at all, but for purely selfish reasons I do miss the early days too. I was never good with change and I am trying hard to adjust, but I do understand your sentiment. X
Thank you very much blackunicorn123. I appreciate your comment and your views. X
I find the discussion on changes in the blog dynamic interesting, so will add some thing I experienced on multiple online discussion forums over time (years). I think it is absolutely normal and there probably isn’t even a way for it to be different, unless moderators (here HG) completely control and interfere with the natural dynamic. I am glad it is not the case on most forums because, for me, observing it is one of the most intriguing elements of forum participation. I have only been on this blog for a relatively short time but have a lot of longer term experience with other forums. There is always a lot of repetition but yes, members/commenters change, but also the actual discussion topic evolves, general knowledge about it develops, people’s experiences and feelings change… I completely agree with those who say diversity is one of the best features on public forums – you can learn so much more than simply from own experiences and from a single source. Including how different members interact, how they try to help their peers, and are critical about what is being said.
I am sort of an oddball here because my reason is not being a victim of narcissistic abuse, it is general curiosity about all sides of narcissism, including my own features. Someone like me, of course, is not in need of the intimacy and empathy/sympathy factor so much, but I know what that means from my participation in other places, where I was very much one of the people struggling with and overcoming something. My experience in that context was that not everyone benefits the most from intimacy and empathy, some can use a bit of tough love and seeing others’ strength better. I am usually one of these, even if I suffer greatly. I remember on other forums all the outpouring empathy and support, validation etc – it did very little to me, pleasant but not effective. Constructive, empathic criticism, including calling me out on my BS in a respectful manner, is what tends to be the most effective for me and I know for many others as well, even if it is not what we ask for or express explicitly. I know this blog is a bit different, not as diverse as other forums, given it is mostly populated by empaths… but I think there is a lot of variety and personality differences even in such a group.
It is also the nature of discussion forums that competitions, cliques etc will develop. We can learn a lot form that as well, in a mainly risk-free manner (i.e. it is not happening in our real lives, will never meet the other commenters). Psychotherapy, for example, is often advocated as a safe learning and practicing space, but I often think these online forums are much better (and free of cost to boot). For me at least. I got into some intense conflicts with people on other forums sometimes, then there were the narcs I met online, and many other lessons to learn and grow from. I personally also think it is not necessarily bad to practice (or develop) some healthy narcissistic features. It is not all bad, it’s evil when extreme and pathological.
Having said all that, I actually agree with some of the points WiserNow, in particular about defensiveness and quickly jumping to protect someone who would be very capable of protecting themselves. I recall similar being pointed out on this blog before. But, again, that’s human nature, I think one way of how empathy is expressed. That can also get a bit too much at times and confuse others. I am sure people who engage in it can observe themselves in terms of triggers, how to resist them at times and not react, and when it is very positive to interfere with unfairness.
My general opinion is that the best way to use a forum like this is to take what’s beneficial and leave the rest. It can be applied to HG’s features and output, the other members’ behavior, everything really. I know it is not always easy because we often notice and focus more on what hurts rather than what elevates… but that is yet another good reason to practice and maybe shift the focus a bit if it is useful. Forums like this often become a sort of microcosm of larger social domains. Similar roles develop and individuals can often see own behaviors emerging that reflects what we do in real life. It can be an introspective person’s dream, again, because it is totally risk-free other than some emotional discomfort at times.
Dorion,
I really appreciated reading your very articulate and objective view of the blog dynamics.
Thanks for sharing.
You’re welcome, I enjoy thinking about and discussing these things because I’ve seen and experienced so many things in these virtual environments. There is also the phenomenon you can see a lot on forums when people get upset due to others’ behavior and suddenly, impulsively close their membership account. Then often come back later because they miss it. Many repeat this cycle several times. We can’t see similar here because it is not an environment where we need to have an account to post, but there are those who post under different usernames, especially if one of their personas was attacked.
It can be pretty hard to quit these discussion boards once we have engaged quite extensively, even if the experience is no longer as satisfying. I never felt that way here yet but on other forums, I ran away more than once because I could no longer tolerate my own obsession/compulsion, using those places as distraction and methods of procrastination. That can also be part of how the forum experiences go downhill over time – initially it is all exciting, new, so many interesting things to learn and contribute. Then it becomes a habit over time… I am trying to be very mindful of this given that I fell in that trap more than once before, but the appeal can sometimes be too intense. That can also become a form of addiction, quite hard to break.
Dorion,
Thank you for your comments. You have a way of being cool and detached, while also being informative and inclusive, that is helpful and thought-provoking.
Perhaps in my own case, ‘the changing experience’ that you describe does apply. The change that I perceive in the blog over the time I have been here also runs parallel in some ways to the change in ’emotional thinking’ that I feel in myself over that time. Your comments made me more aware of both of those ‘changes’ and how they manifest in personal perceptions.
All of our perceptions are ‘subjective’, some probably more than others, if we think of subjectivity being on a scale that can be based on either emotion or cognition. As you have described, with the repetition of learning experiences, the scale of ‘subjectivity’ becomes based on ‘cognition’ rather than ’emotion’. Cognition affords us more self-control and more foresight. Pure emotion is based on protective and ‘nerve-based’ reactions when danger is sensed with an absence of the cognition of repeated learning.
Again, Dorion, thanks for your comments.
Dorion,
Those are good observations, overall, of forum dynamics.
I haven’t been on other discussion boards or blogs lately but I used to be on others, back in the day (like before Facebook), and was very fond of one particular Yahoo group. It was a niche discussion board related to a particular creative art pursuit. It was a lovely international mix of people who enjoyed this particular art form (professionals, hobbyists, just some who wanted info for a one-time project). I learned way more there about art and the life of practicing artists than I ever did in formal art school training. The moderator was responsible, considerate and reasonable and involved people in projects etc…some even exchanged creations by mail. People had good rapport there and I have friends from there still that I haven’t communicated with lately. It was kept lively by the moderator, projects and the passion of the people participating. It went through cycles of different people and levels of activity until it kind of died because of Facebook coming to the forefront.
This is also a niche “forum” with people coming and going, or just reading along – a few have been here since around its inception.
It’s extremely validating to interact with others here who just simply ‘get it’ after what many of us have gone through, plus we get a learning experience along the way. Obviously, different people are going to use the comment section differently and it will go through cycles.
It can be a hard habit to break! Depends what you use it for… it’s definitely a safe zone when you isolated from any support systems during entanglement.
I have learned way more here about Narcissism, other personality disorders and myself than anywhere else – including my undergrad psychology classes and personal reading elsewhere.
Any forum can, potentially, be used as procrastination to avoid “real life” concerns. But I find that here it is also a valuable resource when we are already struggling elsewhere with narcissististic abuse or the fallout of it.
Crap. I think that went through twice. It said it “failed” the first time so I posted a second time.
Hi Dorion! I like this post. I am okay with things not being static, and maybe it is proportional to me being in such a state of flux. I am really struggling with not being overly emotional and while slow, it is improving and this would not have been the case in a different arena. Not with such depth. I have no real angst with the state of the blog. I have been here awhile but to be honest—I didn’t recognize names for some months really or even pay a ton of attention to comments at first. I think I commented here and there early on, but didn’t banter much until last spring. As I look back there are different times that demarcate changes in my life. It has been tremendous and I like to look at this and take a sigh because, it occasionally still feels insurmountable. I wanted a finish line and there is no finish line really. I’ve recognized this issue shape shifts because the addiction wants fed. Had someone told me this a year ago it would have been like trying to explain calculus to a second grader.
All of these were true for my ex. The one that really stuck out was #14. I would never have thought this was a boundary breaker. My ex would always say to me “you should have known that” and I was like how would I know you never told me. It was frustrating to me and I told him our communication needed work but of course he didn’t care.