Tell Me That Its True

 

TELL-ME-THAT-IT´S-TRUE

 

I told you I loved you. That was not a lie. I meant it when I said it. I meant it every time that I said it, wrote it, messaged it, voice mailed it, gifted it and e-mailed it. I knew how to portray it. That wasn’t hard. There is so much material available for me to know what to say, how to say it, what to do and how to do it.

I have seen it when it has been directed at me time and time again. All I had to do was mirror it. I have had enough people fall under my spell and love me so that I recognise love when I see it. It became simple enough to replicate it. My intentions really were noble. I wanted to love you and I gave you the love that I knew that you wanted. I did enough to fathom out how you wanted to be loved.

Goodness knows I put in the spadework. I observed you and saw who you interacted with. I followed you to the places you frequented and noted what you ordered most often to eat and to drink. I sat behind you on the bus one time and saw the book that you read. I recognised the author so I went and bought three other of her titles and displayed them at home in readiness to show you and to let you borrow those which you had not read yet.

I dispatched a Lieutenant to chat you up and gather more information for me to collate and consider. I trawled the internet looking for your footprints. I sat up late as my phone buzzed and pinged with the messages from other prospects that I was cultivating but I made them wait as I searched for you. I found you and using a reliable false profile in the name of a friend of the opposite sex to me I managed to secure your online friendship. I did not approach you directly, despite the cloak of anonymity.

I preferred to walk like a ghost through your cyber world, observing your photographs and establishing the places where they were taken. I noted who your friends were, I highlighted potential competitors and I discerned who your family are. I took in the YouTube postings and when they were timed which told me you enjoyed a few glasses of wine in the evening on your own as you posted musical memories from your teenage years. I walked through your posts and your comments, picking up snippets of information that detailed your devotion to romance, your love of small dogs and your dislike of the cold. Like a silent, vast machine I remained your unseen companion for a month as I sucked up as much information as I could in order to build a picture of you and how you wanted to be loved.

Each meme you posted gave me a clue. Every discussion with your friends added further layers as I created the person that would love you. I uploaded to him your interests and made them his. I bolted on the necessary skill sets which would please you. I furnished him with the choice phrases that you wanted to hear. I configured his actions, expressions, behaviours and more that would make him provide you with the love that you wanted to much and once all of this considerable preparatory work was complete I began my seduction.

I loved you. I loved you with passion, desire, attentiveness, excitement, mystery and kindness. All created from the morass of information that I had gathered about you which was layered onto my existing experience from previous relationships and my knowledge of how love operates in the world. I know that it worked. You fell for me hook, line and sinker and you became enveloped in my creation where you flourished, you shone and you bloomed. Your happiness radiated from you like sunbeams, the pleasure you took in us being together was tangible and all of those around us commented as such. It was marvellous, spectacular, wonderful and perfect.

You had no idea that my love was a creation. Why would you when not only did it match your concept of love but driven by my excellence it exceeded it? Why would you challenge something that felt so golden and so glorious? You would not. I gave you this love and you returned it. It was a match made in heaven. It was a transaction that suited us both. You received my scintillating synthetic love and you gave me the love that sustains me, that emotion infused reaction which powers and sustains me. We both were winners.

Was it such a bad thing that what I gave you was a fabrication if it looked like the real thing? I might even go so far as to say that it was even better than the real thing. Am I to be regarded as a bad person for this fraudulent act. Is it not the case that my deceit pleased you? Yes, you did not know about this deceit, you had no awareness of the fabrication but that caused you no harm did it? You saw and you believed and seeing is believing surely?

When I took you in my arms, shielding you from the black day that you had emerged from and you looked into my eyes and saw the love, the devotion and the optimism that burned there, did it really matter that I was mirroring what you showed me so long as it made you happy, elated and feel loved? My optimistic eyes were your optimistic eyes.

When I unleashed my hatred you could not and still do not understand how someone could treat you like that when that person kept saying that he loved you.

It was easy to switch to this vicious malevolence. It was easy to peel back the veneer that was the manufactured love. It was easy to switch off the creation that I made that provided you with this perfect love. A flick of a switch and he ceased to exist, leaving you with something else instead.

I did not lie when I said that I loved you.

I did not lie when I whispered that I loved you.

I did not lie when I shouted that I loved you.

I just did not tell you the truth.

The truth that I never felt love for you.

Because I cannot do that.

112 thoughts on “Tell Me That Its True

  1. Caroline-is-fine says:

    Kristin,
    Saw your name in this comment, so tacking on – hope you can see my reply here. I’m “buttonless” on your last reply to me, so I and to borrow from Witch.🙂
    You always have a very generous, loving spirit, and I thank you for your encouraging comment to me, which is a refreshing gift to my soul – you have no idea how much I appreciate people like you. I’m fine (guess ’cause it’s in my post name? lol🤭)…I hope your journey is treating you well…walk at your pace in peace, and may each step remind you all you are learning to be good to yourself, which serves to strengthen you. I think of you often.
    Much Love,
    Caroline💖

    1. Kristin says:

      Caroline,
      Thank you for your sweet words, you are so kind and very wise. You seemed to know just what I needed to hear and I am taking your words to heart ❤️. My journey is progressing and I will continue to walk at my own pace and focus on peace because I know I am getting there. I can say that the pain doesn’t seem as bad when I consider how much I have learned about myself in these past few months, that is a gift in itself!

      I saw where you were conversing with Mommy Pino and said that you were not going to be around as much. I have to say that it made me sad so I am very glad to have had a chance to speak with you again! I pray you continue to do well and are happy! 🥰

      Love and hugs,
      Kristin

      1. Caroline-is-fine says:

        That really is a gift, Kristin. Continue to be proud of yourself – it takes such effort/energy (and a willingness to dig yourself out of pain, bit-by-bit, with the hard truth you’ve been given). I was thinking about a few things recently that I thought I’d share, in case it helps along your way…

        Narcissists make me feel nauseated. Yep, head-in-the-toilet ill. Not right away – not all the time – but they all eventually do. I finally realized why…

        They can’t/don’t actually accept love. And I end up sensing that – at a gut/soul level. If they can’t accept love, they certainly can’t give love. That whole concept makes me feel ill! In a way, I think it should. It also serves to warn me & makes me realize they’re not for me.

        You were meant to give and receive love, Kristin…you have empathy & a beautiful, full heart that is capable of that.

        When my nex had me feeling discombobulated and in way too much pain, I walked away from him…in hindsight, I began a slow process of giving that love back to myself. Holy Holdout, I’d lost a lot of love, so I was depleted! Sometimes we say things that sound like meaningless concepts, so I’ll give one example of what I mean, on giving myself that love back…

        I remember sitting on my bathroom floor (not lovely)… I was so heartbroken that I couldn’t eat and was throwing up anything I did eat (yeah, real pretty story😬)…as I sat there feeling the worst kind of heart pain I’d ever felt, I remember crossing my arms up at my neck/shoulders – wrapping them into myself – and softly saying: “It’s ok…I’ve got you…you’re going to be okay.”

        I didn’t think that out (who would/seems nutty)…it was just a nurturing instinct that kicked in.

        I think I was just giving myself back some love he was never able to…and I found that I started to do other little things to comfort, love and gently protect myself…he had starved me of real love – and I was feeding that love back. From then on, I paid extra attention to my own needs/spoke even more kindly to myself/gave myself more gentle care. I realized – for whatever reason (now I know!) – that my nex wasn’t really capable of any of that… I had been giving him much – not realizing my boundaries had been trampled as well. I decided I was worthy of getting back what I gave out…love. So I provided that to/for myself. It’s great when others show us love/care (who couldn’t use more of that?)…but it’s even better when we discover we can do that for ourselves a lot more.

        That’s partially how I eventually “got better.” Having HG spell it all out further empowered me. I’m truly more joyful, strong and peaceful today. It’s been a real education, in every way. But emotions (and even nurturing myself) were never going to get me all the way to where I needed to be…I had to apply logic/hard truth, as you are working very hard to do. Better logic skills/discipline with them is a mighty powerful thing!

        Love is about emotion, but I think it also needs to be about logic…it has to make sense, in a logically balanced way that’s safe for us – healthy – respectful…or it isn’t really love at all.

        Thinking on this reminded me that when I feel depleted from output (giving to others), I know I need a little more self-love/self-care again, and I take the time to do that. We’re complex creatures, so sometimes it takes a minute to realize we’re not taking good enough care of ourselves or to even realize what it is we need.

        I think narcs not only help us see *them* more logically/to apply logic (like HG teaches), but I think they can help us to see OURSELVES in a more logic-based way…to be more sound about our choices – to uplift ourselves…which has been a big blessing for me. I hope you find that to be the case for you more and more on your journey, Kristin.💖

        🤸‍♀️<Yeah, ok, end with your crazy cartwheel, Caroline.🤗
        P.S. I'll still fly in here, from time to time, when I feel led…but not like those scary Oz monkeys.😱

        1. Kristin says:

          Caroline,
          Thank you for sharing how you have dealt with the nex and how you have healed yourself. I can relate to a number of things that you mentioned and you inspire me to keep going and to take care of myself. I see how narcs make you feel nauseated as mine does that to me by just being around, hence my plan to leave.

          “I think narcs not only help us see *them* more logically/to apply logic (like HG teaches), but I think they can help us to see OURSELVES in a more logic-based way…to be more sound about our choices – to uplift ourselves…which has been a big blessing for me.” Absolutely, I agree 100%. To have learned that I am an empath was such a blessing in all the pain and very important.

          Thank you again for taking the time to give your very helpful and kind advice. Keep checking in and bring your cartwheels and a few monkeys just for fun! I look forward to seeing you again in the future. Many blessings to you Caroline 🥰💕

          1. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You’re so loving, Kristin. Your children are way lucky to receive your unconditional love, wisdom, and sweet spirit. As a caring Mom, I know you worry about them. They’ll see that life brings the messy/difficult/chaotic/painful(like we all do, in time) – but will also learn how to walk their way through & grow, just like their Mom is doing. There’s no doubt in my mind that you will get to exactly where you need to be that’s best, for yourself & your kids.

            Take care, Kristin💖 Keep pressing on, with your wonderful grace.

            XO,
            Caroline

        2. Kristin says:

          Thank you sweet Caroline, you are a a love. I wish you all the best as always. 💚💕🥰

          Kristin

  2. Witch says:

    Thank you Kristin,
    Now we are on the topic of mental health. I found out yesterday that I believe a friend was sectioned. She contacted me and seems to have taken on a new persona and I don’t believe she’s telling me what really happened, she said she went to prison and then explained she’s been in the hospital. And this all happened within the space of a couple of months.
    I’m going to call her every couple of days and try to gently probe to find out what’s going on.
    The problem is I don’t know her family so I can’t contact them to find out what happened.
    So now I’m worried about her more than my parents.
    2020 is doing too much, Urgh!

    1. Kristin says:

      Witch,
      It is always something isn’t it?! I hate that you have a new worry but it is understandable giving your empathetic nature. Try not to let it take a hold, you are struggling as it is and doing the right thing by checking in on her. She will see your compassion and hopefully come around and open up to you. I am the queen of worry and it makes me physically ill at times. I have to tell myself that putting so much mental energy towards something that I cannot change not only hurts me and doesn’t accomplish anything. I read that worry does not take away tomorrow’s troubles but it takes away today’s peace. It is stealing your joy and keeping you very busy doing nothing. Take care of you right now because that is most important and when your friend gets in touch, you will be in a better place mentally and better able to help her.

      Hang in there Witch 🤗💜

      1. Witch says:

        Thank you Kristin,
        I’m trying to be disciplined with how I think. It’s just hard. And sometimes I have to switch my off feelings completely and suppress them, so I can be there for other people, cleaning up the mess that narcs have made.
        I’m a dustbin woman for narcs, that’s basically my job title.
        And that is pretty much the meaning of life; empaths trying to fix the problems narcs have created within the confines of the law (what a joke!.)

        1. Kristin says:

          I understand Witch. You have taken a lot on and by shutting down you are in self-preservation mode. It is difficult to train ourselves to think differently, we are basically fighting ourselves and what is engrained in us. You are a good friend but do your best to take care of you because we all know what happens if we stretch ourselves too thin.

          I think you had mentioned to FYC that you wish you were more like other people. You are who you are and there is nothing the matter with that. You have a lot to offer as an empath and can use your horrid experiences to help others. I am one of those happy, spastic people and I have often thought, if only I could be more laid back like my friends. You know what, that thinking is pointless because if you or I were like the “others” we wouldn’t be who we are! I don’t know if any of this helps, but I am really hoping that this tough time will pass for you soon, we all do.

  3. Kim e says:

    Violetta
    You stated “In any case, using that much force against someone who hadn’t been accused of committing a violent crime is bizarre.”

    Sorry but I have to disagree with this. this type of force against anybody is unacceptable. Did you happen to see the picture taken from the other angle that showed 3 more Police officers (and in this case I use the term very loosely) kneeling on his back and legs. Why not just hand cuff him? Pepper spray him? Zap him? But to kneel on his neck and the rest of his body I for a long time….unacceptable. This was not a case of them trying to subdue him to get the cuffs on. No it was a deliberate act. I believe the other officers should be charged also. They are to protect…not kneel. IF they wanted to kneel they should have been kneeling years ago with the Black Lives matters.

    This really pisses me off………….The american justice system sucks

    (not you Violtetta…the entire situation)

    1. Violetta says:

      Kim E:

      If he’d been a baby-raper, I could understand the force, whether or not I condoned it. If you’ve watched early epis of SVU, you know that one of the things that made Stabler an interesting character was the way that darkness occasionally got the best of him and he really wanted to work the perps over instead of letting the justice system handle it–viewers could relate to that.

      If he’d been a school shooter or a workplace shooter, I have no objection to LEOs taking the perp out with one shot without trying to bring in a live defendant for trial. To be honest, when they get cases like Ariel Castro or the “house of horrors” parents where they’ve been abusing people for YEARS, I wish they would just throw them in general pop and let the inmates do what the law cannot.

      I guess what really bothers me is the cold-bloodedness of this. It’s not like he got tired of being kicked by a violent perp and smacked him upside the head. He’s calmly watching the guy die for 8 minutes. This wasn’t a matter of impulse or excessive force to subdue the suspect. The entire thing was in cold blood.

    2. wildviolet22 says:

      Unfortunately, cops use this kind of restraint (called the “prone” position) when they really don’t have to, quite often. They’ve killed people before and gotten away with it. Texas is pretty bad regarding people dying at the hands of cops. Look up Tony Timpa, an incident that happened a few years ago. You can see the 5 cops mocking and ridiculing him, they were on his back for 14 minutes as the guy was dying. He had initially called them for help too, and the Dallas police department continues to refuse to give out info on how it escalated, with him on the ground like that. I believe all of the cops in the incident got off. It’s disgraceful, there needs to be reform in the training, and accountability for police brutality, but unfortunately they often get away it.

  4. truthseeker6157 says:

    Hey FYC 🙂
    It was really just a comment to illustrate a point, with a hint of sarcasm perhaps. Let’s face it, most men aren’t great with pain are they? Take man flu for example, never a cold, always flu lol. That said, I do have a high pain tolerance, no pain relief given when giving birth etc.
    To my knowledge it’s the way we remember pain that is different. Women tend to ‘forget‘ past pain ( probably so we have more children) men remember it more accurately. I’m by no means an expert on the subject.

    1. FYC says:

      Thank you, Truthseeker. Memory of pain is an interesting way to consider pain. Given HG’s “rude health” and considering all he endured by way of abuse in his childhood, I’d wager he has an incredibly high threshold of pain, but perhaps a longer memory of it. But that is a total guess.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Yes, the pain threshold can be different between physical and mental. I could always stand a lot of physical pain myself, but having to endure the pain of another is much worse. So much so that I would invite it on myself to be engulfed in it and take action rather than witness it and feel helpless.

        1. FYC says:

          NA, I agree that emotional pain is greater than physical pain. And I certainly agree with taking action. I am so sorry you dealt with so much at a child. I respect your strength and owning your choices. You thrive beautifully.

          On a separate note, I fear to ask how your sister is doing isolated in lockdown with her N? I am hoping so much exposure to what he is will tip the scales in the other direction (leaving), but that is just my annoying optimism no doubt.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Hi FYC
            I am not in contact on a regular basis with my family members, but I texted them all to see how this was affecting them. They all responded by text (my narc brother sent only a thumbs up emoji haha), but my sister called as well to formally tell me the wedding has been moved to next year (I had only heard through others). She sounded tired, but she’s a nurse and has been working a lot, so hard to say if it was from that or narc fatigue (likely both). The sound on the phone was odd and I assumed she was in a hallway at work or something and didn’t give it another thought until my mother mentioned that whenever she speaks to my sister she is on speaker. She asked why that was and my sister said it was so he could also say hello. We both know that is not why.

          2. FYC says:

            Hi NA, I know exactly what you mean about the 👍 (I would add to that a reply with your own text and the words “liked” and no other message to the list). I found your account of your sister very telling and sad. I really hope your wise words are remembered by her and she finally opts out of his control. I appreciate your update. Please do let me know if she escapes. Hope is useless, but eternal. I hope she does escape. At least she has a wonderful sister who can help when she is ready. That is a rare gift in itself.

        2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear NarcAngel,
          Witnessing the horrific death of George Floyd ! RIP
          Feeling helpless is an understatement
          😔
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Lorelei says:

            Hi Bubbles—we have protests and gun shots throughout the city.. Several dead on the scene from gun violence tonight. Two wrongs do not a right make, it’s a mess.

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Lorelei,
            We are getting all the updated broadcasts here
            I feel for all of you
            Trump had an opening, he blew it big time
            America is in a absolute mess
            Please stay safe Lorelei
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. Presque Vu says:

            Bubbles I totally agree!

            My son told me about George Floyd and we watched the video! RIP!! I am so disgusted at what has happened to him and those 4 police officers (1 in particular who kneeled on his neck for 8 minutes!) are scum!

            It’s really affected me, that poor man! He didn’t even have a fraudulent cheque in the end! But the video, my god, he can’t breathe, you can see he’s struggling, and tells them multiple times.

            It’s a disgrace!

            Now riots in Minneapolis and 3 police stations abandoned. Police driving by spraying pepper spray from their window over innocent people, I’ve seen the videos and I cannot believe what I’m seeing!!

            Then trump tweets ‘when the looting starts, the shooting starts’ … wow just wow!

            I am beyond disgusted and I can’t stop thinking about George, he never resisted arrest, he never committed a crime, total miscarriage of justice! To watch videos of him as he looses bodily functions as he fights to breathe as he is murdered by the police is beyond words.

            God rest his soul.
            That police officer needs to be brought to justice, as a human being, how could you knowingly kneel on someone’s neck for 8 minutes as he begs you for air?? How??

            Sick fuck!
            I can see why people are angry, I’m angry!

          4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Presque Vue,
            What can I say ?
            We are all in shock n disbelief here in oz, I think everyone is angry
            It is beyond comprehension
            I viewed the video 😱 I’m lost for words
            Please, Mr Tudor, we’d really appreciate your thoughts on this, if you may
            😔
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘 .

          5. Getting There says:

            I agree with you, Bubbles!!

            In the timeline of the lockdown, how I measure time right now, there have been three known senseless murders. George Floyd is one. Before him, though, there was a gentleman named Ahmaux Arbery who was murdered in Georgia. He was chased down while jogging. It took weeks before an arrest was made and only after the video was released and the public pushed for arrests. Another is a young woman in Kentucky named Breonna Taylor. She was home with her boyfriend. Police came unannounced while they were sleeping. Her boyfriend woke up thinking someone was breaking in and shot a cop in the leg. The police shot multiple bullets and she died. Her boyfriend was then charged with her death. The person the police was looking for was apparently already in custody. No one should live in fear and anger, not at the hands of a “loved” one nor at the hands of one trained to protect. On here some of us talk about our desperation for others to understand narcissism and to protect others from the abuse; mix that desperation with fear and anger for the basic right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. No one should ever feel that they have to explode to be heard!

            I can’t but hope there will be peaceful resolutions to the situations at hand and for the future so this never happens again.

          6. Witch says:

            @ presque

            I hear you. Sometimes war is necessary.
            A lot of police forces in the states appear to be very poorly regulated. I’m not sure if this is accurate information but I’ve read that this officer has allegedly killed other men including a Native American and a Latino, yet he hasn’t faced any real consequences until the evidence was in the public domain. It makes you wonder what else gone on that has been covered up.

          7. Violetta says:

            Latest yahoo headline:

            “George Floyd autopsy shows no signs of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation, attributes death to ‘being restrained, his underlying health conditions, and any potential intoxicants in his system'”

            Lest anyone think that gives Chauvin a pass, some readers who have experience in medicine or martial arts have pointed out that putting that much pressure on the Carotid artery could cut off blood flow and cause loss of consciousness, then death.

            Meanwhile, his former Beauty queen wife is divorcing him. There is speculation on whether she is:

            A) a heartless Gold-digger, who btw the way passed a bad check once, something no better than Floyd’s alleged crime of passing counterfeit bills;

            B) distancing herself to protect her family, who’ve had nasty messages from vandals scrawled on their driveways;

            C) terrified of him already, and figuring this is the safest time to leave.

            As for Floyd passing funny money, I haven’t even heard whether he made the counterfeits or just received them from someone else and didn’t notice. I’ve got Canadian coins more than once because I wasn’t paying attention.

            In any case, using that much force against someone who hadn’t been accused of committing a violent crime is bizarre.

          8. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Getting There and Violetta,
            Thankyou so much for providing further insight into this horrific racist crime
            I understand “racism” to also be indicative of NPD
            Action should’ve been implemented immediately by the powers that be, so it didn’t escalate
            Now we watch wait and see
            Your comments are most appreciated
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      2. Kiki says:

        Hi all

        I have been out of the loop for some months , may I ask is HG still in the golden period with Shieldmaiden ?
        Last time I was here he was spoiling her with great trips etc .

        I’m just curious ???

        Kiki

        1. Lorelei says:

          Kiki—I think HG is only traveling with his mum these days. He likely bought her a cabana on the Banyoles Lake. The quaint nature of Catalonia affords a serene and splendid opportunity for the slightly cooler water therapy of his mum in the proper months of the year. Not too cold no, just a hint of chill. SM is having triplets for which HG will be the sole & primary house dad. Elvin, Melvin & Kelvin. Elvin will be a UL type B, Melvin a CD, and Elvin a middle greater pop star combining such lyrical mastery of Prince and Iggy Pop. HG will grow weary of the boy’s antics, but with an almost “sententious” manner he will adapt. Occasional annoyances over little Elvin shouting, “Get out of my room (factory) can even make a king cross eyed and whisper with a near sibilant utterance. Melvin will provide endless fuel. He will be the golden child. Upon restoration of SM and HG’s freedom from the bondage of parenting, in the boys teen years, they may resume travel in a post COVID world. They will ride in Kelvin’s tour bus as he does his farewell journeys. All 100 shows each year. Funny how often the farewell tours are scheduled isn’t it? And could HG’s mum be the legendary Banyoles monster? What will happen to baby Melvin?

  5. lickemtomorrow says:

    It is incredibly painful. I still hurt deeply. Even though the scales have fallen off my eyes.

    I didn’t want to see it. I don’t want to see it. I am heartbroken. Because I loved him.

    I don’t regret what I gave. It was a facet of who I am …. a loving individual.

    I won’t let him take that away from me.

    And I gave and I gave and I gave. And he took and he took and he took.

    But, I won’t let him change me. I came to that relationship knowing who I am. Even though I was vulnerable at the time. I gave of the truth of myself and have maintained my integrity. I can’t say the same for him, unfortunately.

    So, I hold my head up high, even though it has been bowed in sorrow by the experience.

    I don’t hate him … all the time. I don’t think you can ever give love and think it has gone to waste.

    Even if it’s just to know it was yours to give. That gift has now been returned to me.

    I will aim to share it again with someone who will actually appreciate it the next time.

    That’s what I told him. What I have to give belongs where it can be appreciated, sustained and respected.

  6. NarcAngel says:

    With regard to intimate relationships:

    When I first started reading here I understood people feeling sad that it was all a lie but I couldn’t understand the destroyed and suicidal comments. I remember thinking: well at least you had a golden period of being loved and valued. Some have never, and will never experience that in their lives. To be brutally honest – it seemed unrealistic and somewhat narcissistic to me to feel entitled to having it continue to the point of neglecting or harming yourself if it did not. My perspective was that it must have been wonderful to experience those highs, if only for a time. That has changed somewhat over time through learning here (especially with regard to it being an addiction), but I still don’t discount it entirely as a healthier focus than the comments about being destroyed or ruined for life. No one person or period of time has that kind of dominion over the entirety that is your life unless you allow it. And why would you? That would be continuing the abuse yourself.

    Let me be clear – I am not condoning the abuse or discounting the feelings of reaction to it. I am saying that the response to having it affect the rest of ones life is a choice.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      I agree with your comment here and would like to second it. In my comment on this post, I’ve said I am heartbroken. The expression of that feeling is important. Otherwise, it has nowhere else to go. I absolutely feel it, right down to my bones. But, I also feel the strength of the emotion, and how it is not just able to lay me low, but lift me up. That is the beauty of being an empath. While we feel deeply, there is a strength that comes with knowing the part of ourselves that generates those feelings of sorrow and pain which lay us low will also be the part that helps to lift us up to feel peace and joy again, It’s not that we don’t hurt. It’s that we can heal.

      And after learning more about HG, knowing my own ex narc/s, and having a mother who is a narc and knowing her story, too, all I can say is their stories generate sorrow in me … for what can never be and for what caused that to happen in the first instance. At the same time, I know they can only hurt me. There is no doubt we have to protect ourselves, as the damage in their lives will be ongoing. In this instance, I have to separate from my sorrow.

    2. Intrepid Traveller says:

      NA, I am Also intrigued by the response to the affect a narcissistic relationship has on anyone For the rest of their lives. Two reasons: why the hell did it get to me so much and for it to still be a work in progress several years later? Maybe my time of life? I dont know. I come here like an addict to an AA meeting, for my dose of logic. I love the strength it gives me as i lost so much, I never had a golden period that you describe, i need to be reminded of the cruelty. the love was all mine – given and mirrored back. But why do i have to still manage the effect it has on me? I still dont understand that. I too went to a deep dark place similar to the comments we both read, luckily i was here at the time so managed to make sense of what had hit me. I agree that personal response is a choice, but to choose you have to know that there is one. My choice only came about because i found this site and i grasped the understanding that gave me that choice. But only from being here. 100%. As my knowledge grew i looked at people around me who had obviously been in narcissistic relationships for years: my mum, mother in law, ex narc’s mother, my narc’s ex wife still has issues. I noticed that despite the demise of their narcs or escape they never fully recover themselves or their lives and this is the second reason why i am intrigued. i do not think that they are taking the choice to let if affect the rest of their life even though it does. Is it ignorance of what they have experienced? Are they stuck on that merry go round of guilt and taking the responsibility of what happened as theirs and theirs only perhaps? Is this the suppression that the narc relationship Brings about On their thought process and mental health? I have brought it up with HG before as I see a definite trend and it hurts me to watch people i care about truly stuck and lose the joy of the life they have left remaining. I would love HG to write more about it. A great description of this effect i have taken from an article on a new book release on Charles Dickens i have just read (great one for the Tudorscope HG). The effect he had on his wife due to his behaviour was described by another woman essayist of the time as “Dickens had terrified and depressed her into a dull condition” and this is how she lived out The remains of her life. This is such an apt description of how my mother lived out her life for the last 30 years after my father had died when we had assumed she would be cheering and celebrating her relief from his grasp and enjoying a ‘new life’. I now understand. But i do understand that she didnt choose that way, if she had a choice she didnt know that she did. I just dont have the wherewithal to write down why she was so stuck, i just feel it ☹️.

      1. K says:

        Thanks to HG and narcsite, my IRL empath friend has a choice now. Due to severe parental narcissistic abuse, she was stuck even though she was under the care of a psychiatrist for over 20 years (he was useless). That is how insidious this type of abuse is; it robs many targets of a full and healthy recovery even after the narcissist disengages or dies.

        She is still a Hot Mess BUT she is slowly improving. She recognizes the manipulations (control) now and understands the reason why: Fuel. It is agonizingly slow but she is coming along nicely.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Well done for referring your friend to my work and guiding her, K

          1. K says:

            Thank you HG
            Your work is superlative and it took her a while to bite and I think my sister may be reading, too.

        2. lickemtomorrow says:

          I just want to touch on the word insidious here, and thanks for offering it up K.

          The effect of these relationships, and the abuse attached to them, is insidious and if you’ve grown up with them even more so.

          It’s comparable to the notion of ‘you can’t see the forest for the trees’ in my mind. I can’t see it because I’m in the middle of it, and my emotions are all tangled up in that as well. It’s very hard to extract yourself when you don’t know what you are in the middle of in the first place.

          It’s taken me a long time, but here I am finding the clarity I need. I’ve described it as the scales falling off my eyes, and maybe the insidiousness of these things is the reason it’s taken so long. The same traps were being laid and I kept falling into them. Now I feel like I can see the forest, I’m no longer amongst the trees.

          It’s still painful, but not as painful as the lack of vision involved in being close up and personal.

          1. K says:

            My pleasure lickemtomorrow
            Correct! We canNOT see the forest for the trees because NPD abuse is all many of us have ever known; it’s our normal. How can we freely choose if we never knew any different. We need accurate and truthful information, which we get here in spades for free.

            NPD abuse is routinely minimized, glossed over, excused and ignored; gas lighting (control) at its finest. Society needs to wake up and recognize exactly what we are dealing with.

            No more falling into traps anymore; freedom is guaranteed through House Tudor.

        3. Leigh says:

          Intrepid Traveler, I so needed to see your comment. I ask myself all the time why this man still affects me after so much time has passed. I keep telling myself to get over it already & move on. For me, I never experienced anything like it before. He lit a fire in my belly. It was just so intense and passionate. Then the manipulations and devaluations started and I knew I had to get out. 13 months ago, I had surgery and 5 days before he disappeared and never even wished me well. On that same day, i found this blog and I’m so thankful I did. He gave me something I never had, and for a long time, I was pissed I had to give it up. I probably still I am. With that all said, I agree with you and NA that I have to make the choice to get my life back to a place of joy.

          I too, come here needing my dose of logic on a daily basis. This blog is a life saver!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            The right way to use this place.

      2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear Intrepid Traveller,
        You raise an extremely important awareness, abuse has quite an individual affect with an indeterminable period of some form of recovery, if any
        I’m not qualified in that area of expertise as mental issues are very complex and now with covid, expect it to peak
        Some are beyond repair, depending I guess on how much abuse, others fall into depression, others give up the will, some see no light at the end of the tunnel, some choose to be martyrs, and yes, some just get stuck on the merry go round and can’t get off, some people just don’t want help, some people would prefer the abuse than have nothing (anything is better than nothing)
        Some end up in mental institutions
        I’ve suffered “internally” all my life, as with you, coming here and finding Mr Tudor only to make sense of it
        It’s a very personal issue and mentally different for everyone
        Mr Bubble’s mother suffered at the hands of her abusive husband, too scared to leave him (different era back then) as she knew he’d track her down and probably beat her to a pulp (Mr Bubbles tried to get her into her own unit ) she refused
        She’d try n sneak out once a year to meet us and see her grandchildren (pretend she was shopping) he watched her like a hawk
        She died years before him a very scared unhappy sad depressed lonely lady
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      3. Lorelei says:

        Intrepid—my mother did not “choose” either, she had no idea. None. I’m certain. Abuse after proper education may be a “choice” but everyone’s trigger threshold for bullshit or perception of normalcy is different. Additionally, some people simply can’t leave because of their mental health & circumstances and they deserve compassion and assistance absolutely. I’m convinced my childhood friend can’t function independently.

    3. StrongerWendy says:

      It definitely is hard to understand it if you haven’t experienced it in an intimate relationship. That’s why the forum here is great as you can talk about it (or read about if you don’t choose to comment. Both helpful.) with those who have experienced it similarly and ‘get it’. Their experience are validated. I respectfully disagree that having it affect you the rest of your life is a choice. Many don’t even know what they were dealing with or what the hell happened. However, the insight given by HG does give those who have found it a choice that they didn’t have previously.

    4. Witch says:

      Have you ever felt suicidal?
      It’s not a conscious choice. For some people it’s how they feel when they have reached a certain threshold of stress and grief.

      1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dearest Witch,
        I was in a very dark place once, when I was young
        I had “no one” who cared or loved me
        My mother n father both abandoned me, step dad tried to kill me, I seriously thought “I must be a terrible person, because nobody wants me, what did I do wrong, why am I here”
        I told myself ” I AM a GOOD person and I DESERVE better, you just never know what’s around the corner because life is full of surprises”, challenge accepted
        The rest is history
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. Witch says:

          Hi bubbles
          I’m glad you were able to tell yourself positive things and it worked and since then you haven’t felt that way.
          However, for others it’s doesn’t work like that, the thoughts return and they have to keep fighting it. For some people it takes a hell of a lot of effort to feel “okay” inside and words of affirmation is not a lifelong cure for them.

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Witch,
            I accepted the challenge, but never said it was easy, of course I’ve felt that way, many times
            That particular time I referred to was my darkest
            I do have a little understanding of how difficult is for some and there’s no quick fix pill, it’s much harder when you’re on your own and have no one
            My mother thinks mental issues are a form of weakness….. she frickin created them !
            My mother is judgemental, a racist, a bigot, eccentric and a misandrist
            I had to battle against all that
            Witch, I have struggled just feeling good about myself all my life
            I truly sympathise for others who struggle deeper within self
            The challenge I set myself was never easy with many highs n lows
            I apologise if I indicated it was
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. Witch says:

            Hi Bubbles
            Please don’t apologise that was me, I misinterpreted the intention of your message.
            I’m truly sorry you had to go through all that. The scars that parents leave can have a lasting impression on our lives and sometimes more so than any intimate partner. The narc partners reinforce the messages from the parents and so it’s completely understandable to me why this would push someone over the edge.
            I’ve witnessed it with others and also experienced it and it’s far from a choice.
            We can all do things to try and get better and that’s where the choice lies.
            I really don’t see the point of living in a society where people ask you how you are but they don’t actually want to know.
            When you’re already not healthy minded there’s so many things you can think about and add to the list as to why you can’t be bothered anymore to carry on and be around people.
            But I’m glad that you found the courage in your darkest moment to fight against it and you still do. Some people don’t understand how exhausting it is.

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Witch,
            You raised awareness on this very sensitive issue and that makes you very special indeed
            We speak of mental issues but this area is almost taboo and people are generally scared to open up and discuss it
            You just helped so many without realising it
            Sadly, it can be self perpetuating with dire outcomes
            However, I personally believe, one can, with help, alleviate some of the burden and find purpose n meaning in life (even if its for your pets)
            I have a female friend who is on antidepressants and will be forever, (she has severe depression and high anxiety) I’ve managed to eliminate my anxiety altogether without medication, thanks to Mr Tudor and controlling my ET on a level I never thought I’d achieve
            I know of two young people who did end their precious lives, a male who had an evil narc mother and the other a stunning female who was bullied by her future mother in law
            Heartbreaking and as devastating as it was, the family n friends were left feeling indignant that they didn’t seek help or come to them
            The feeling of helplessness is a terrible place to be in but I feel it’s still a “decision” to continue or not
            Mr Bubbles had a touch of “the black dog” once, PTSD, fortunately my postive vibes rubbed off and he was able to compartmentilze it and he’s never been back
            The majority of veterans from our club are on medication
            After coming here, we decided to declutter people from our lives and surround ourselves with only those that do care (of course my mother doesn’t count)
            I think you’re amazing Witch, to be here and pay it forward as you are
            That in itself makes you a wonderful human being and also makes you a gift
            The challenge now is selecting the beautiful wrapping paper n trimmimgs to go with it 💝
            💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. Witch says:

            @bubbles
            I think the vast majority of suicide attempts are linked to domestic abuse.
            Narcs don’t only kill through the direct act of murder. They more often kill indirectly.
            Thank you for your kind words Bubbles. It means a lot to me that you and others understand

        2. Renarde says:

          Dear Madame

          I’m sorry to hear that about you. Very glad you are better.

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Renarde,
            Its all good, thank you
            Working on self has been a lifetime challenge, that’s for sure
            Others here have suffered worse
            Just trying to shed some light so as not to go thru what I did
            Thank you for caring Renarde
            💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. Renarde says:

            I do care Madame Bubbles.

            I always love your responses. Because in the darkest of days, you shine the light x 1💛🎩🦊

          3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Renarde,
            Thank you oh gorgeous one
            Sometimes I’m a bloody lighthouse and dazzle myself 😎
            😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. Renarde says:

            Madame

            What I like about you is how, despite everything, you are yourself.

            Authentic. People should always be authentic.i like that. I admire it.

            A wise man once said, ‘When we lie, we murder a part of the world’

            I do lie, we all do, but when I lie I do it for a very good reason. I then accept the obligation placed upon me.

            Many do not.

            Ren x

          5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Renarde,
            What a lovely compliment, thank you 😊
            If I can’t be me, who can I be ?
            I have nothing to hide
            Having nothing to hide sets me free
            Plus I have a shit memory 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        3. FYC says:

          Dear Bubbles, You are a beautiful person and you have overcome a great deal. I am so glad you never gave in to any moment of depression. We are all happy to have you here with us.😘

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear FYC,
            You are so generously kind and I deeply thank you. 😌
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    5. Lorelei says:

      Hi NA—I just read this comment about choices in relation to ongoing impact. I really agree and also think it takes baby steps not to be so impacted. Over time the impact has decreased in regard to many of these toxic situations and people. Even one simple work scenario has just become a zero impact situation. It’s frustrating it isn’t all at once but it is improving in some areas. It’s almost like an invisible feather whisk that is often in reach to brush it off that was never before present. Some people will remain more impacted, some less. It’s almost a “condition.” When C. Hitchens was dying he was interviewed by Jeremy Paxman. His cancer was dismal. He was asked about it. He said “5% of us live another 5 years.” He put himself in the winner’s circle. He didn’t say, “Only 5%..” He made a choice to have an outcome by placing himself within the group that have more opportunities. His attitude was a choice. I was texting a friend last night about this interesting man I’ve been chatting with. I have the usual concerns. It occurred to me that it really doesn’t even matter—why.. Because no one will ever get away with murder again. So what if he ends up being a narc? He’ll get a foot up the ass because I’ll walk off day one that it hits me. I don’t respond well to love bombing and flattery so I’m not particularly dreamy eyed and unable to discern. I’m also not a person that really wants someone around a lot and he doesn’t live close. (8 hour flight—it’s perfect) So what if he’s a narc or not? It’s not going to hit like the dismal marriage I was in. I think one of HG’s best pieces is on hope. Hope became a delusion and it is more toxic than a narcissist. I’m in the percent that refuses to do hope with a narc again—the 5%, the 25% or whatever. Anyone that thinks they can live with these vultures and be as happy as life can make them is wrong. There is too much to experience when free. I’d have moved to a cockroach infested house in a day had someone said what was wrong. I truly had no idea. My profession failed me—the therapeutic community was useless. I was floundering. It won’t happen again even if I have occasional bumps in the road—there won’t be a repeat of absolute horse shit. One wrong glance it about all it takes—maybe there is some post trauma stress associated with that statement but it’s better than wishing away behavior and ignoring it.

      1. smarinucci1970 says:

        LORELEI. 💪💔❤, VERY INTELLIGENTLY DESCRIBED. I COULD FEEL THE PAIN & EVEN A LITTLE HUMOUR IN YOUR WORDS THANKS FOR SHARING.

    6. NarcAngel says:

      My comment was to explain how I viewed it both prior to and just after arriving here, and that it has changed somewhat. We do not all think the same and raising something I don’t understand should not be taken as judgement by others. That is not the intention. It is about exploration and learning.

      An example: I often see people comment that you can’t fix things or make other choices until you know what you’re dealing with. Well, I did not have the label of narcissism until I arrived here, but that did not prevent me from recognizing both in my family home and in the lives of friends that there was something very wrong. Many of those people had the support of others and a way to leave but they did not. It’s not as if when people do find out about narcissism that they immediately take steps or make choices to remove themselves. That is why when the concept of addiction was introduced it made more sense to me. I watched as a child and marvelled at how people would want to stay in these relationships and I deduced early that sex must be very powerful (and it very much changed the way I view intimacy and sex) and yet there are many who will say after the disengagement that their partner was total shit in bed (and some would still get sucked back into the dynamic). I have previously offered that my sister is blind to her definition of abuse. Because he does not beat her, she does not consider the manipulations and treatment of her as abuse. Her father is the bar and it is on the ground. Yet we grew up in the same household exposed to the same things. There are empaths who have narcissistic parents and end up with narcissists in intimate relationships and yet others experience that at home and do not accept that in their relationships. This points to a difference in empaths but we tend to always focus on the narcissists. Raising any inkling that we might shift that uncomfortable focus to ourselves to explore how/why we are more susceptible is met with finger pointing and the accusation of victim shaming. Frankly I think that is nonsense and fear.

      Someone asked on one of these threads if I ever felt suicidal. I do remember feeling as a child that no longer being here would be easier because I was trapped with no escape or choice and being old enough to leave seemed too far away, but I also remember wanting to end HIS life because HE was the one who didn’t deserve air or to be responsible for my taking of my own life. I said fuck him plenty. It was incomprehensible to me as a child that adults who could walk away did not. There was still fight and defiance and I am still here and in a better place than I could have imagined. I’m not trying to blame or shame people – I want them to find their fight. To say: yes, it was beautiful for a time and I had that, but now that I know it cannot be sustained, I will not bloody well give up the rest of my life because I found out I was in a fairytale and was rudely awakened.

      I was not clear enough when I said about choice. I was referring to those who appear here and now know what they are dealing with and yet state that they will never love again or want to die. Some of them have children. I still cannot comprehend a supposed “love” or form of sex from a partner that would override the care for your children or yourself. Again – addiction fills the bill. If you are here then you now know you have opportunity and choice to break the addiction if you take the guidance and put the work in. Make that choice.

      The brutal truth is that the life of the narcissist remains unchanged by what you decide to do. They will not pine for you – only move to next blinded victim and feel entitled to pop in and fuck up your life again when they feel restless due to low fuel. If you kill yourself they will just be annoyed. Not much of a fairytale.

      1. FYC says:

        Thank you for sharing that, NA. Powerful statement.

      2. Lorelei says:

        I understand much of your message and appreciate it NA. I truly just didn’t know. Here is this good looking educated man that his family loves.. I had no clue NA. I even scoured the DSM. HG hates the term covert but it fits when you don’t know.. Had I known—gone. Next day. Truly. The gaslighting makes you think it is you. I thought I had a mental health problem. He never called me a name, never picked over my appearance, dared never ask for unusual sexual practices, never touched me. My identification with abuse was someone who would be physically violent. So, it’s very complex why people (even those with support) stay. I really didn’t have support anyway—I’m alone in my city with no family here since ‘96. Regardless, I just had no idea. I couldn’t put my finger on it. It was never about an addiction to the sex, it was about peculiar behavior feeling familiar because my frame of reference was peculiar. My father never hit my mother, he was reasonably employed, bright & interesting. Had my ex ever put a hand on my children he would have been nailed—because that was not behavior I’d been acclimated to accept. For some it unfortunately is and they are just as deserving to be here. (And I know you would be and are just as gracious to anyone) My greatest two moments though of failure are when my oldest had some upsets due to the behaviors that I now recognize were casual cruelty. I’ll never forgive myself for being dismissive. The big issue is that this whole fucking quagmire mess of our lives is so complex. Each person has a unique story. Each of us has a different array of red flags based on many factors. I sometimes feel I don’t even fit here. I can’t stand someone around much. “Dating” (that’s a strong word—not dating dating) someone and he checks in almost daily and it annoys me. I’m like how the fuck do I get ensnared?! But I do. And it’s generally a narcissist so yes, addiction or comfort indeed. I have a vulnerability to certain types of men—cocky is almost attractive. This whole mess is so hard to unravel.

      3. Witch says:

        I can not speak for everyone but as someone who struggles with suicidal ideation it isn’t a choice. It is because my emotional resilience is low due to mental health issues and so if I reach a certain threshold of stress and grief the suicidal ideation will be triggered. Suicidal ideation can be temporary or it can be a life long struggle.
        If someone expresses suicidal ideation, it doesn’t necessarily mean they will act on it. In fact, being able to voice those feelings and talk about it can provide a form of release and therefore help to reduce the risk of acting on it. Some people who comment on here are not necessarily thinking about the narcissist’s reaction to their suicide but are reacting to their experiences of the narcissist with reduced logic (to a healthy minded perspective.) only because they know what the narcissist is doesn’t mean the pain and grief stops there.
        In that moment when the pain is so overwhelming it’s seems perfectly logical for us to believe our lives are esstentially pointless and we don’t want to have to deal with the risks of living anymore.
        (And tbh my life IS unnecessary to this earth and ecosystem, I am not a bee!)

        Some people might believe that if they kill themselves the narc will care about them more or realise what they have done, but like you said they are mistaken and once they realise that is the case I would hope logic would sink in. The ones who persist with the suicidal ideation are likely to have depression or some other mental health issue.

        1. FYC says:

          Witch, I am very sorry to hear you suffer in this way and I thank you for all you shared. I am wondering if you have any words of advice for those of us that might encounter such a person with such depression or suicidal ideation?

          1. Witch says:

            @fyc

            It’s okay, I’ve accepted it for what it is.
            I rarely wake up in the morning enthusiastic about life but I try my best and I make do.

            I would say, sometimes people just need the space to be honest and get it off their chest without the other person panicking or being like “what about your family?”
            It’s likely that person has already thought about their family and the consequences and that’s why they are still here.
            It’s good to be reminded that the thoughts are temporary and even though someone feels that way now, it doesn’t mean they will feel that way tomorrow or even in 3 hours.
            But it’s an uncomfortable subject and no one should feel guilty if they don’t feel able to engage in that kind of conversation. There are helplines out there and someone can be encouraged to contact them.

          2. FYC says:

            Witch, Thank you for your personal insight. I find that this is what most people seek. Listening with empathy. I also agree that many people would not have committed suicide if they could have survived their darkest moment and lived to experience a different moment. I am curious, Witch, what things bring you peace or joy? When do you find yourself most relieved from depression? Or is the depression more constant? If my questions are triggers or make you feel uncomfortable in any way, please feel free to disregard them.

          3. Witch says:

            @FYC

            I don’t feel depressed all the time. I have “episodes” usually triggered by something stressful that might last a few days or a week or sometimes longer.
            I have mild to moderate depression so I can still appear to be functioning “normally.”
            I’ve had some CBT because I also have anxiety and it wasn’t particularly helpful. I think it’s because I probably should have been offered talking therapy at the same time. But I don’t really know.
            I have a friend whoses had CBT and whenever I complain to her she always turns it into something positive.. and I’m thinking “how the f do you do that?” So I guess it worked for her.
            I get joy and peace from “normal” things, socialising, concentrating on my interests, my pets.
            I wish I was one of those happy go lucky people who wake up with so much energy looking forward to the rest of the day.. but I just don’t feel like that and it’s not because I hate my life.
            I mean there are people who have everything that we are told is suppose to make us happy; fame, money, a family, friends, admiration and respect from people who don’t know them personally and they still have episodes when they don’t want to be here like Robin Williams and Chester Bennington.
            Life can just be god damn draining. Sometimes I wish I could go to sleep like Dracula for 100 years and wake up in a new century. I wish I could just disappear and come back when I wanted. But we are either here or we are gone, there’s no flexibility about it.

          4. FYC says:

            Witch, I know what you mean. I think it’s natural for others to have the impulse to try to lift your spirits or “fix” whatever might be bothering you, but this may not be what you want or need. Your friend likely thinks she is helping you. Have you considered letting your friend know what you need from the conversation? Sometimes this helps. I am sure she wants to be there for you and if she knows just listening is what you need, she would.

            It seams you already know what matters most for you in life and those same things bring you peace and joy. That is more than many people have, especially the wealthy and famous. It is very interesting to see just how much that is true. Things are enjoyable, but the one thing a thing can’t deliver is inner contentment/happiness. When you really get down to it, the joy and happiness in life are in the moments we connect with life, with nature, with animals, with people, it’s not with things.

            Witch, I don’t believe you need to be anything you are not already. More contentment comes from acceptance than from trying to be something else. You don’t need fixing. You are whole. Of course I would want more peace and joy for you than depression, but I do not pretend to have any specific solutions. Just know that you have a lot of empaths on the blog here that care. Be good to you.

          5. Witch says:

            @fyc
            I don’t mind my friend being the way she is, I think sometimes it’s nice to have someone point out the silver lining that sometimes you can’t see for yourself.
            But thanks for speaking to me about this. I appreciate the people out there who are good people and make the world a little bit easier to live in.

          6. FYC says:

            Witch, I very much appreciate you being willing to discuss this with me. It is important to understand your experience and to learn what, if anything would make a difference for you to have a better experience. I wish I had answers. I tend to be more like your friend. I am wired to see the good, appreciate everything significantly and have deep gratitude. I take no credit for this as I cannot remember a time when I was not like this. If I could, I would give you some of my own peace and joy so that you would not feel so weighted. If you ever want to talk about it here, I would welcome that. I judge you not in the least. Take care.

          7. Witch says:

            Thanks FYC,
            It’s okay you don’t need to have answers, sometimes the company is enough.
            My sister is having a lot of anxiety lately from living without any other adults at home.
            I think the way we live in the modern world is very unnatural and there are downsides which is bad for our mental health. We are social creatures and shouldn’t be living alone. It’s more natural for us to move around in packs/tribes and fall asleep and wake up along side other people. But we are fed this “self love” bollocks, that’s we “love ourselves” if we are independent and don’t need anyone else and work to accumulate riches for ourselves and live according to individualism and we shouldn’t need validation from anyone else.
            Actually, we DO need validation from outside of ourselves and we are inherently vulnerable and DO need other people and it’s not “weakness” to admit the facts.

          8. FYC says:

            Witch, Thank you for your reply, and I appreciate your views. I have many thoughts on your comment, so I will try to separate them out below:
            * I agree, humans function best in a social and accepting environment versus as a lone wolf. There is significant scientific research that confirms this in many ways, (better health both physical and mental, longer lives, higher satisfaction index, etc.).
            * Maybe invite your sister onto the blog? It will not replace human contact, but it would provide some thought provoking conversations and she would be warmly welcomed.
            * Healthy self esteem/self love is important for self acceptance and self protection. It is not, as it is so often misunderstood, a laundry list of what we think/believe is brag-worthy or conceit of the same (beauty, wealth, popularity, etc.).
            * I agree, many in our society perpetuate an image that more wealth, beauty, likes, and managed opinions (by media and influencers) and behaviors (you must do this to be accepted in X group or to receive likes) is all you need to “arrive” and to be accepted. These individuals/groups seek control and power.
            * The degree to which a person is individualistic or collectivistic has many factors. I studied these factors in-depth for my thesis. Neither is superior and both have drawbacks. A bit of both offers the most balanced approach to life.
            * Humans naturally seek validation and acceptance from birth forward and it is important. It can run amok where there is little internal foundation of healthy self-acceptance and self-esteem/self-identity. In other words, like anything else, balance is the better course.
            I hope your sister finds a way to connect soon and not feel so alone.

          9. Witch says:

            @fyc

            I wholeheartedly agree with you 😊

          10. FYC says:

            Witch, If I may, do feel you have more choices when you are not depressed? Do events change your perspective? If you received a significant amount of money, would you feel differently? If you were told you might die soon, would your perspective change? I ask because I’ve had a few such crossroads in life. No one can plan for potentially life changing events, but we all react differently. What I have found when things go unbelievably well is they are great, but not all that you might imagine. When you’re told you may die, it’s a shock, but it really brings into focus all of the many moments, simple and great, that you’ve had the privilege of experiencing, especially with those you cherish. Life is such a gift. Not just the good stuff, but the bad stuff too, because I’ve had the privilege of learning from everything.

            Our feelings follow actions and our actions follow our feelings. This cycle influences our choices. I’m curious, if you found out the world would end in one year, what would you do differently? Would you feel differently? Would you take more chances? Would spend time on negative thoughts? Can you do any of those things now to give you more good experiences every day? No wrong answers and I hope this candid inquiry does not cause any distress, I just thought it might be worth consideration. Take care.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Witch

          I appreciate you offering your thoughts on this subject.

          1. Violetta says:

            I still want that Perfect Love, on the same wavelength, telepathic bliss, but I’m more likely to find it in a puppy than a human. For some reason, it doesn’t some compatible with sex (well maybe it is for some people, but I have no desire to engage in interspecies mating).

            I don’t know why humans are so fucked up. There are a few examples of psychopathic primates–I heard of chimps that will secretly eat another chimp’s baby, then make a big deal of comforting the grieving mother–but in general, if animals are hostile, they’re just hostile and they get it over with.

            Maybe Mark Twain was right about the moral sense in “The Mysterious Stranger.” It does seem to lead humans to make worse choices than animals do at random or on instinct.

        3. Fiddleress says:

          Witch – I agree with you that it is not a choice.

          I read this discussion around suicidal ideation yesterday, and it has troubled me since. So I just wanted to say the following, and I will only speak for myself, because I am sure there are different experiences of this.

          I mentioned on an other thread that “the idea of ending my life crossed my mind”, and also used the word “contemplate” doing that. It probably was not the right way of expressing what happened, because it wasn’t actually an “idea” first, and “contemplate” involves ‘thinking about’ it for a period of time beforehand, which I didn’t.

          In January, just before my escape, and before I found narcsite, the psychological pain caused by the madness of my relationship with N had turned into physical pain also, as if I had been standing in a house on fire for too long. I felt like screaming (and actually did a few times, when I was alone in my car – err… yes, I was in a bad way. And it didn’t help either).
          I had taken to running, as fast as I could, to try and alleviate the pain. It only worked while I was running, and the hurt would come back as soon as I would stop.

          I remember that one afternnon, for a split second, I felt like ending it for good, but it was not a decision. It was akin to feeling nauseous when you unexpectedly get a whiff of a disgusting smell. It seized me as nausea would. And just like you know you feel nauseous, then the realisation hit me that I had felt like ending my life. It was very brief, but extremely disturbing. And I can say that in that split second, there was absolutely no thought of what it might do to anyone in my life. It doesn’t work that way. It didn’t for me, anyhow.

          It was a horrible experience, and entirely new to me. It gave me some understanding of how it can happen, which I had never understood before. And it is not something you can control.
          For me, it was the ultimate warning that I had to get out of that Relationship, and make sure I never got entangled again. Thankfully, I found HG’s videos on YouTube, and this blog the next day, in February.

          Oh, and sex is not what I am most interested in, in a relationship. Unfortunately, perhaps. Otherwise, I might have got out sooner…

          1. Witch says:

            @fiddleress

            Yes it is a horrible feeling that springs up on you.
            I’m glad you found HG and was able to overcome the narc. It’s not easy but it’s worth it in the long run

          2. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you, Witch.
            I wasn’t sure whether to add anything to what has been said to you much better than I could (I *usually* prefer to shut up if I feel I am going to be clumsy).
            I am glad also that you are here.
            I just wanted to say I found it great that you shared as you did. It is the same with so many posts here, I find it so interesting to read about (and comprehend) other people’s experiences of what I go through as well, sometimes in a different manner, or more importantly perhaps, of things I have not experienced personally.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Fiddleress

            To help me understand this better then… you felt like ending it but then you did not. What came to your mind that prevented you from doing it in that moment if as you say, it was not something you can control? (perhaps influence is a better word). You also stated that it was the ultimate warning for you to get out of that relationship and make sure you never got entangled again. To my mind that indicates you linked the feeling to the source (narc) and made a choice to remove them from your life. Do you not consider that having been a choice you made to remove yourself from further feelings of harm toward yourself?

            Everyone else

            For the record, in this conversation I was not being flip and stating everyone can control thoughts of suicide or suggesting it was easy. Witches comment indicated that there can be other mental health issues at play that can hamper choice and that helps to explain the difference in reactions from one to another. My comment was for those for whom choice is possible. There are some who indicate that harming themselves or revenge will spur the narc to some realization of loss. It will not. I feel I had choice, and I could be wrong but that was what I got from Bubbles comment as well. No one is suggesting it is easy. If offering that there might be a different way of thinking to investigate and that choice may be possible in avenues previously unconsidered is taken as a negative, what are we left with? Say nothing and hope they make it? People who offer anything have intention to help or they wouldn’t bother. They do what they can to help and if it’s wrong or unhelpful, they don’t need to just be told that they’re wrong – they need to be offered alternatives that are helpful instead.

          4. Fiddleress says:

            Hello NarcAngel,
            Thank you for your message.

            To answer your question, yes I do link that impulse to end my life to the N I knew. It was overwhelming and as I said, not a decision, not a choice. I guess it was lucky that that impulse only lasted a very short time – I said a split second, maybe 5 seconds, I can’t really tell, but very short anyway. I was outside, taking a break from running, with absolutely nothing at hand to harm myself. It is interesting that you ask what prevented me from acting on it, because I was thinking of this earlier today and I told myself it was lucky I wasn’t driving, for instance, at that moment, or I might have acted on it then, I don’t know.
            After a few seconds the full realisation of what had gone through me, that impulse, hit me hard. I remember sitting on a bench. I was dumbstruck, bewildered. I really scared myself. Because it simply isn’t me (again, I deem myself lucky that it is not something I suffer from on a regular basis. I have an inbuilt, and maybe unrealistic, optimism that means I have always been able to soldier on). I was dismayed, and frankly terrified that if it happened this time, it could well happen again.
            It was only then, because of that fear, that I made the decision to remove myself from that relationship for good – I had been trying for about two weeks. This time it was a choice, because the impulse had gone and my instinct of self-preservation prevailed. Only then could I think of the impact on other people in my life.
            As I hadn’t found narcsite yet, I made an emergency appointment with a professional to talk it out. Now I am determined to make sure “it” all never happens again.
            This was one long post. I still have trouble fully making sense of it. All I know is that I cannot, will not, let myself reach such a state of emotional wreckage again, so as not to risk this happening again, but I still have a hard time accepting that it did happen. that impulse.

            Also, what I was trying to say is that I could not understand before how anyone could commit suicide without seeing there were alternatives. Now I have some understanding (my own brand) of how it can happen, but I wish that knowledge had come about in a different way.

            One last thing: we may all react in different ways to written posts because, well, they are in writing. The tone of voice is not there to add nuance and/or lightness to what we write and the way it could be received by other readers. I sometimes also worry that what I write might seem “too” this and “not enough” of the other. Communication is a vastly complicated thing! But as I said before, I appreciate your comments, NA, and I know that you offer contructive views.
            I would end with a smiling smiley, if I used smileys at all.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Fiddleress

            Thank you for expanding. I’m glad you were able to understand the source of that feeling and chose to take steps to ensure to the best of your ability that you do not find yourself in that place again. You needn’t worry about “too this” or “not enough that” . This is a place for discussion and learning. Mature, intelligent people recognize that there can be exchanges that do not necessarily result in acceptance, and clarity can always be sought if required to avoid misunderstanding. I don’t do smiley faces either, but don’t read me in angry font. I seldom ever am despite people thinking that. It’s just the way I communicate.

        4. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Goodness Witch, that must be really difficult for you to cope with. I feel incredibly fortunate that I don’t get depressed. I have one day each month just before my period when I feel incredibly low. And I have to keep reminding myself on the day, tomorrow it will be gone. But that can be a huge challenge even In itself bizarrely? Even though I know based on all previous months that it will be gone as fast as it came. It seems impossible at the time. It does make me think a lot about people who suffer from depression, how awful it must be and how they cope. You must have such amazing strength! I’ve heard CBT can be very good at changing your thought processes.
          That’s a really interesting point that some people who would not otherwise be depressed (only narc inflicted) want to kill them selves to get recognition from the narc. It’s vital to keep awareness up so thst this can be prevented or the risk minimised at least.
          What keeps you going when you Are having a depressive episode?

          1. Witch says:

            @alexis
            I did have CBT but I didn’t find it particularly helpful. As far as addressing my thoughts I was just told to download the worry app, record my worries and allow myself to contemplate my worries for only 15-20mins a day.
            I did try it for a couple of weeks and then gave up. Lol I think my problem is I need to be able to release my emotions, but when you intellectualise them too much you can’t do that . So I probably do need a therapist whereby I can just talk to openly and cry. I can’t really do that with people I know. I can talk about my feelings with people I know but i still won’t be able to fully feel them and so I won’t cry.
            But at the same time I don’t want to keep dwelling on stuff and letting it get to me.
            So I’ve just put it down to something I just have to live with.
            What gets me through it is my responsibilities, my responsibility towards other people and how it would effect them.

        5. Kristin says:

          Witch,
          It is difficult to read of your struggles but I can totally relate. As I have told you before, you have a lot to offer on this site and I appreciate your honesty. Although heartbreaking, it was a huge relief for me when you previously shared your struggle with such thoughts. I’m sure I am not the only one who feels that way. I have always been a happy person who loves to joke around with everyone, however that has not prevented me from having the intrusive thoughts that have plagued me and in turn made me feel guilty for feeling that way.

          I believe that some people have a genetic predisposition for depression and anxiety. It runs in my family and unfortunately, I passed it on to both of my children. My daughter and I can laugh about it and I just tell her I am sorry that she inherited all of my “good” genes.

          You are not alone and as I have discovered, the feelings and thoughts are, at times, stronger than we are. Logically I know what it is but it can be suffocating and the desperation to dig ourselves out of the hole seems insurmountable. Keep sharing because I sincerely hope that, in some way, it will help you. 💜

          1. Witch says:

            @
            Kristin
            Thank you for your encouragement.
            I’m the happiest I have ever been at this time, but I still get set backs.
            Like I fell out with my dad recently and I’m going to do a narc Detector on him but For the time being I feel like shit. I don’t know if I’ll ever get over my parents being a disgrace. It’s just embarrassing.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You will. I’ll ensure it.

          3. Witch says:

            Well I’m here and I will try

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Being here is a considerable step forward because it provides you with the means to do, not just try.

          5. Witch says:

            Yes Mister Tudor

          6. Kristin says:

            Witch,
            They are the ones that should be embarrassed but obviously that won’t happen. You will work through this because you are a strong woman that has been through her share of crap. Do the narc detector so you can have answers and find some peace. Take care of you!

        6. Caroline-is-fine says:

          Witch,

          I have a close friend who struggles with suicidal ideation. No one would have any idea of that about her – from the outside looking in…I’ve learned so much about depression from her. She’s tried various medications and therapies, but it’s still a struggle. She calls me when it gets really bad, and I come over. She told me she felt safe to tell me about it because she doesn’t feel pressure to smile or act “normal” or “hurry up and feel better.” It’s been the biggest lesson to me that it’s not about solving something for her – it’s about understanding the issue enough to realize that it’s a facet of her that occurs, and I’m just there, as she moves through it…that said, when it comes to suicide, I admit I have felt a big responsibility to make sure no harm comes to her. I’ve learned to live with my doing what I can…I do my best, and that is part of really caring – but knowing you are not the solution. She does have an expert she sees/calls regularly too, so I’m not just winging this on my own, because I’m truly only qualified to be her friend.🙂

          I spent one whole weekend with her once, when her ideation was really bad…I saw everything. She’d wake up, sobbing, and I’d just hold her. It came in waves, and I saw how much she suffers.

          I’m one of those people who is generally sunshiney/go-with-the-flow/rebounds well. I do know grief. I do know sadness. But I don’t know depression. Instead of feeling guilty about that, I decided to be thankful that those other components of mine make me strong enough to be there for her, which is a blessing. My gentleness/sensitivity is also there for her, and it keeps me tapped into those aspects of myself, so it’s put to some use.🙂 I can show my love for her, in this very simple way of being there. Life becomes so real & raw, in these times alone with her…contrasting with all the complicated nonsense of life, outside our little bubble. It brings me back to the basics of what’s truly important. So she helps me as well.

          I’ve tried to grasp how depression feels, because I just want to know…and after being with her through some of it, I finally have come to think of how I feel when I’m underwater…nothing else exists to me in that time – for me, that is a joyful, peaceful feeling…but for someone feeling depressed, it is more like being completely disconnected, until they find a way to move up – a bit at a time – and break through the surface of feeling connected again.

          I appreciate all the thoughts of those sharing about struggling with depression. I’m always wanting to understand it more – so that my friend’s journey breaking through the surface is less lonely for her….but maybe I’m a little bit like a life raft she sees floating around on the surface above her, and maybe that is enough for her.💛
          Thank you all.

          1. Kristin says:

            CIF,
            You are a wonderful friend. The fact that you cannot (thankfully) relate to her depression and suicidal ideation but are still there for her and a lifeline speaks volumes. Not many would be able to do that if they couldn’t relate to the situation.

            I still remember the words of encouragement you gave me when I first got here and I replay them in my mind on tough days. I hope you are doing well 😊

        7. alexissmith2016 says:

          That’s a shame re CBT. I think you’re right re releasing your emotions. Always better out than in! Yes, speaking with someone you know about your innermost feelings can be really tough. It can definitely be much easier to speak with someone we don’t know for sure.

          Slightly different but on the rare occasion I go to see my GP (general medical doctor if you’re US based, not sure?), I’m never able to convey my symptoms well because for example, even if I was in extreme pain whilst I’d let my husband know it ahaha I play it down to anyone else and jolly it up because I just wouldn’t want them to know. I guess it’s the sort of opposite of what you’re saying really but similar in how certain people/situations make us hold onto our feelings and no let go.

          I’m pleased you have responsibilities to others which helps get you through and that is incredibly honorable of you. I do wish you could get through for you and I hope you do find an answer to it or at the very least have very many long periods where you’re not affected by it. You very much deserve this x

  7. Linda Ann Pluck says:

    What it is he’s a Ghost online.
    This is worst then u person.
    Cause at least in person.
    You can read ur facial expressions
    And get out easier..
    I did the Super Empath thing.
    And then got suckered in .
    Right back in his spell again.
    The thing is I don’t even know.
    If he’s who he says he is..
    I get hints he will End his life.
    If I don’t believe him..
    Then I beg for a call for the hundredth time.
    I get the same excuses that he loves me.
    And we will be together..
    I have to drown him out again..
    With ur guidance or I will fail again!
    His spell is Music. I fall it Everytime!
    I know what said. Get out & stay Out!
    It’s a flaw in me cause I fall for the next Narc!
    Is every Men a Narc? I’m starting to think So!!

  8. lickemtomorrow says:

    I had already decided it wasn’t that my ex didn’t love me. He couldn’t love me.

    While you peel away the veneer, so do I.

    And there is reassurance here.

    I am not unlovable. He was unable to love.

    And yes, it was all the things you describe it as … wonderful, uplifting, edifying.

    That it was a manufactured lie will not destroy me.

    The fact he was able to create it means that it exists.

    It just didn’t exist in him.

  9. Pingback: Tell Me That Its True ⋆ NarcTopia
  10. truthseeker6157 says:

    HG, if you go all the way back and include your earliest romantic relationships, can you honestly say that you have never missed someone when it’s ended? Just simply missed them for them? Everyone feels things differently don’t they? My pain threshold is higher than yours. Fact. But that doesn’t mean I don’t feel pain. Is there absolutely nothing there? Or is it just so mild, that you don’t identify it as that consuming feeling that everyone talks about as being called love?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have not and do not.

    2. FYC says:

      “My pain threshold is higher than yours. Fact. But that doesn’t mean I don’t feel pain.”

      Truthseeker, I am genuinely curious how you determined HG’s pain tolerance? I always thought hospitals use the self report 1-10 scale to determine the individual’s *interpretation* of their pain since we all experience pain differently. I have not read anything on this but it piqued my curiosity. Thanks.

  11. smarinucci1970 says:

    It was all an illusion all of it .I think that’s What Hurts the Most I saw the red flags in the very beginning but I overlooked it I said that’s me I’m judging someone again or I can help him I can teach him he doesn’t mean to be so rude so sarcastic never any compliments only put-downs .God nobody could teach him he liked being rotten to me.. none of it was real that’s what hurts .The last few years are gone nothing to show for it and he will never understand . Tell me I’m wrong , PLEASE MAKE ME HAPPY AGAIN .

    1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear smarinucci1970,
      I find my happiness comes from within
      It’s a CHOICE and a state of mind
      I NEVER rely on others to make me happy
      I luv my own company, being in my own space and away from people (although I’m very much a people person)
      I focus on the present
      The alternative is being sad
      Overthinking, expectations and negativity are detrimental to one’s health n happiness
      I keep busy with things I like doing, decluttering for one (healthy for the mind n soul)

      All my narcs have “acted” totally oblivious to their behaviour and the severe damage they’ve caused
      “What damage what behaviour” ?
      My mother laughs it off or acts like it never happened, it wasnt really that bad, it was a joke, you’re taking it too seriously, I didn’t know, did I dear, I don’t remember, it was such a long time ago
      The brain doesn’t compute or she’s in denial and they actually believe themselves
      It is what it is
      You can’t change people, period!
      However, you can change how people treat you, by implementing boundaries
      Narcs will never make “you” happy and you do have something to show for it, a more educated progressive you!
      Accept it
      Learn by it
      Clean the slate
      Move on
      …………..for your own happiness, dear smarinucci1970
      💕
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. YES BUBBLES I’VE. BEEN TRYING TO SHOW THE MALE NARC I KNOW FOR THE LAST. COUPLE YEARS THE QUIET BEAUTY IN MY FEEDING THE LOVELY DEER THAT WAIT EVERY NIGHT BY THE MOHAWK RIVER FOR ME BRINGING CARROTS, APPLE’S, CRACKED CORN . HE JUST CAN’T SHUT- UP. MAKING FUN ABOUT IT NOW TO EVERYONE. HERE I THOUGHT HE WOULD FIND PEACEFUL MOMENTS WITH ME AT MIDNIGHT IN THE MOONLIGHT , NO HE GOT NUTS. CURSED SCARED THE BABIES THREW HIS COFFEE AT THEM . THREATEN TO LEAVE ME THERE AND IT WAS MY OWN JEEP WE WERE USEING. WOW. I GUESS THATS WHY HE’s A LESSER .MY CEREBRAL NARC HUSBAND TAUGHT ME HOW TO FEED AND TAKE CARE OF THE DEER .WOW. WHAT A DIFFERENCE. CAN’T TEACHTHAT KIND OF A MAN. I GUESS BABY

        1. Violetta says:

          SMarinucci:

          How dare you focus on the deer instead of the Narc?

          They can never let anyone be the star of the show.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            But she failed miserably in that role!

          2. Violetta says:

            Who, SMarinucci or Bambi’s mom?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Neither. See your comment.

          4. Violetta says:

            Speaking 9f which, there are rumors Meghan Markle wants to go on Broadway.

        2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear smarinucci1970,
          Awe how lovely feeding the deer, you’re so kind
          You’re narc friend certainly showed his true narc colours, talk about a 5 year old attention seeking hissy fit ! Threatening to leave you there 😱
          You don’t need that lovely one
          To create the peace n tranquility, the narc has to go, they invented mayhem
          You can’t teach new tricks to a pyscho dog
          Sorry pet
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    2. K says:

      smarinucci1970
      Your empathic trait of wanting to heal/fix was exploited. You can’t teach a narcissist or show them the “correct way”* to behave because of the different mindsets.

      “I saw the red flags in the very beginning but I overlooked it I said that’s me I’m judging someone again”

      7. I think perhaps I am too harsh on him at times, it is my fault really.

      https://narcsite.com/2020/05/23/excuses-equals-endangered-11/

      *Correct from our POV isn’t correct from the narcissistic perspective; due to lack of knowledge and understanding, we often make the mistake of imposing our world view on them, from his POV, being rotten was the correct course of action to take (control and fuel).

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