No Good Advice

NO-GOOD-ADVICE

 

Relationship advice. The internet is awash with it. Sites, blogs, question and answer sessions, videos on YouTube there is a plethora of advice about how to deal with the problems which arise in intimate relationships.

I decided recently to have a good look through many of these sites and gather together the common complaints which people raise when they submit their issues. There are plenty of submissions, thousands upon thousands of people complaining about the issues in their relationships. Oddly enough, I noticed a common thread with many of these complaints where people had written in to seek advice or explained their circumstances. Time and time again I saw the following:-

“Everything was wonderful to begin with, he swept me off my feet.”

“She made me feel like a king and it was just what I needed after how horrible my marriage had been.”

“I was taken aback by how loving he was, but it felt so good to be treated that way after everything that I had been through.”

“He told me how he had been hurt before and didn’t want to go through that again.”

“His ex-wife was horrible to him and he had been hurt but wanted to ensure everything was right between us.”

“Everything was marvellous for a few months and then he changed.”

“I didn’t know him anymore.”

“He started controlling me.”

“She told me who I could see.”

“He started to isolate me from family and friends.”

“He would flirt with other women.”

“She spent all of her time on the internet doing Lord knows what.”

“He never listens to me.”

“He became abusive.”

“The sex was amazing at first but then it just stopped.”

“He was so loving and attentive in bed but then he started suggesting threesomes and kinky stuff which I didn’t like.”

“He started to make decisions for me.”

“She would lose her temper over the smallest thing.”

“He would disappear for days on end and I was sick with worry.”

“He would not speak to me for several days even though I had done nothing wrong.”

“He started hitting me. He said sorry afterwards and seemed remorseful for what he had done, blaming it on seeing his dad beat him mum when he was young.”

“He doesn’t like anything I do any more, he puts me down.”

“Its like living with Jekyll and Hyde.”

“He just never contacted me again. I still don’t know what has happened.”

“He told me he couldn’t be with me anymore as he needed time to himself and then two days later I see him post about a new girlfriend on social media.”

“He was unfaithful to me repeatedly.”

“I still miss her after everything she has done.”

“I am financially ruined, stressed but I still love him.”

“Why can’t it be like it was in the beginning?”

“I want him back.”

I should imagine that all of you will be nodding at these comments for two reasons. First of all, you remember saying them yourself or something similar. Secondly, you now realise what was actually behind these behaviours. People like me.

Over and over again I saw questions and tales which all had the common theme of ‘Brilliant start, he became someone else, dumped me, I was heartbroken.’ Hundreds upon hundreds of these stories, these tales of misery and woe. A litany of despondency and confusion that has been piled up in the inboxes of the relationship advisors and gurus. I scrolled through them all, reading the replies, the advice and the suggestions. I read the analysis, I digested the observations and spent some considerable time doing so. What did I see?

Not one person raised the possibility that the person seeking advice had become involved with a narcissist. Not one.

Many of these blogs and relationship advice sites were clearly popular. Some were established names, linked to lifestyle magazines and newspapers. Many directed you to their services for counselling and relationship tool kits. Many of them trotted out similar comments and platitudes. Too often they read like the first world tribulations of a scene from Sex and the City rather than the abusive, destructive and harmful actions of dangerous narcissists.

Yet not one of them raised the suggestion that a narcissist was involved.

Now, naturally it is not the case that behind every relationship woe there is a narcissist but I know that those of you reading this, with the benefit of the enlightenment you have achieved knows that there is a good chance that problems of this nature as described repeatedly in the problems pages of these sites are something to do with people like my kind. Yet nobody was offering this as a possibility. That shows the scale of how easy it is for us to do what we do and pass undetected. It shows the staggering lack of knowledge about what we do say, think and do and the naivety of so many people, including those who apparently understand relationship dynamics.

Instead, I saw standard and repeated responses such as:-

“He is clearly a commitment phobe.”

No, he doesn’t want to spend time with you because he is devaluing you and is actually seducing someone else at the current time.

“You have outgrown each other.”

No, you never grew together to begin with because it was all predicated on an illusion and his lack of interest now is symptomatic of his interest being elsewhere.

“He may just be tired or stressed from working hard to support you and your children.”

Yes or he might be a narcissist who uses his rage to intimidate and control you.

You may have unrealistic expectations about the relationship.”

Damn right you do and we all know why that has happened don’t we?

You need him to take responsibility for his actions. He cannot keep blaming you for everything.”

Good luck with that one.

“He just might not be into you.”

Half-right I suppose, he just isn’t in to you fuel anymore, he is in to somebody else’s.

“He might be bored with life and not you. Try harder to interest him.”

Again, good luck with that one.

“Relationships require hard work. Don’t give up. Keep working at it and you can overcome the problems together.”

You have just been told to sign your own death warrant there.

“Some people have anger issues but that can managed with understanding and therapy.”

Or they have fury which ignites at the slightest provocation and always will.

“Being hurt is an inevitable part of a relationship.”

It is if you get ensnared by my kind.

I am not suggesting that every problem in a relationship is as a consequence of the other party being a narcissist, that is unrealistic. However, the number of times I read about what was clearly the narcissistic dynamic of seduction, devaluation and discard was significant. The monumental amount of times that I recognised narcissistic manipulations – rage attacks, silent treatments, triangulation, intimidation, bullying, gas lighting and so forth – in so many posts did not surprised me but they were not picked up on. Many times these manipulations were not isolated events. There were repeated occasions and also differing types of the manipulations which when combined and repeated point in one direction.

The advice and platitudes that were provided to people who were clearly, not just possibly, but clearly entangled with a narcissist, were way off the mark. The descriptions and answers I have listed above were the ones which were provided to people and at best this would mean the person would remain clueless and stuck with no appropriate solution and at worst they were providing advice which would harm the individual who had sought the advice.

I was not surprised by this erroneous advice. I was not amazed by this omission of our kind from the explanations. I was not taken aback by the scale of people complaining about what was clearly narcissistic abuse but not being told as such.

This is why we are able to do what we do.

This is why we are able to move amongst people, ensnare fresh victims and maintain our veneer of respectability.

This is why what we do is passed off as something else. Euphemised, diluted, lessened and made to seem like a standard relationship hiccup.

This is why ignorance is so harmful.

This is why we remain so effective.

This is why we remain so dangerous.

114 thoughts on “No Good Advice

  1. Ruth says:

    I also think that more people should pay attention to this article. So that many have an understanding of the problems of narcissism, not only in personal relationships, but also in life. After all, how much we smile at each other not sincerely for the day. After all, our parents taught us this politeness. Is it really politeness that we use so actively in life. What is one of the manifestations of narcissism!

  2. blackcoffee30 says:

    I truly believe it could not have been any other way, but it still grieves me that my BFF didn’t mention that maaaaaybe he was a narcissist until the day I decided to go NC and called her sobbing about it.

    1. dollysupreme says:

      Would you have listened though at the time?….. I have dropped hints the size of Hiroshima to my friend. The one time I tried to tell her ( I sent her one of HG’s articles where her partner’s behaviour was a carbon copy) went down like a fart in a wet suit. So I have figured she’s bright enough to figure things out in her own time. Blimey, I knew myself deep down and I still went back to my own narc. Lots of people are in denial. I wouldn’t have believed my narcissist was ever capable of the savagery that he dished out. I think all you can ask for of friends is for them to be there for you…….I’m glad she was for you…..We all need good friends. And fellow forum members who have great experience

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Intelligence is no defence. You need access to my information and then to be able to apply it I.e reduced ET

        1. dollysupreme says:

          I need lots of your material that I haven’t already got. I also need to find out exactly what I am…….I also need to find a rich sugar Daddy to pay for it all so I can have it instantly …..One that’s close to death and doesn’t require sugar 😂

        2. Violetta says:

          HG:

          Has anyone besides you described different types of narcs and how they can be expected to respond differently to the same course of action?

          They might not use your nomenclature of lesser, mid-ranger, etc., but has anyone else attempted to catalogue the different types or explain why a particular strategy may work with one narc but backfire spectacularly with another?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No

  3. Kim e says:

    Witch
    “getting that old”
    May I ask what age you think is “old” if you think 55 is “that old”……

    Signed the Really Old Empath

    1. Witch says:

      It’s old enough to not take cheap advice from a crappy book written by a celebrity “Suzy homemaker” who follows her husband to his job everyday and is obsessed with anti aging creams

      1. Violetta says:

        Why does anyone watch that show 8n the first place?

        This is why I mostly stick to Beeb imports on PBS. They may be no more accurate than Dr. Phil, but at least they offer historical costuming, or Aidan Turner/Tom Bateman wearing no costuming at all above the waist. Can Dr. Phil claim even aesthetic value?

      2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dearest Witch,
        I’m guessing you’re referring to pill popping Suzanne Somers ?

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Kim e

      Remember though that when we were younger we thought 55 was old too. I remember thinking my mom was near death when I was a kid and when I look back now to where we lived at the time for reference, she was in her 30s haha. It’s only old until you get there, and by then you don’t care.

      1. Kim e says:

        NA,
        I guess the reference to age always gets me as I believe/know I am a lot older than the majority of the Tudorites. Yet in the rest of my life, the age reference does not bother me at all. Strange circumstances…………..

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Kim e

          You’re never too old to remind the irreverent young upstarts (HG’s term) that you’re still a force to be reckoned with by rapping them in the back of the knees with your cane.

          1. Kim e says:

            Thanks NA. Going to get my cane spikes sharpened.

        2. Witch says:

          Kim e

          I wasn’t trying to imply that being any type of age is a bad thing. I sometimes just speak in a crass way, because that’s what I’m used to and what I find funny because that’s how people spoke around me growing up.

          There are certain things about getting older that I’m looking forward to, such as being able to say more outrageous things and getting away with it because, “leave her, she’s old”
          Haha

          1. Kim e says:

            Witch,
            No worries. I would have had the same reaction no matter who said it. As I explained to NA it is only on this site that it bothers me. Maybe it is a mixture of the 25 year age gap with me and N. It is (was) a double edge sword. First one of….”hey I still got it”. And the next of “how could you really believe that”.
            NC is tough but sometimes admitting those types of things out loud is even tougher.
            Maybe I owe you a thanks for making me say that out loud.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are doing very well with your NC. You’ve come a long way from when you first arrived here. Keep it up.

          3. Kim e says:

            Thank you HG.

          4. Witch says:

            @Kime

            Once you’ve got it you’ve always got it, I’m sure you’re a whole lot of woman Kim e!

          5. Kim e says:

            HAHA…thanks.

        3. Empath007 says:

          I have the opposite feeling. I always feel I am younger then most on this page. Which is of no bother to me… and also I don’t know enough about the readers to really ascertain their age (it also doesn’t matter to me what their age is) but from what I can tell the majority that comment are 40 +.

          It does make me wonder why more young people are not seeking out this information. Given the fact that a lot of them find themselves in narc relationships. Or perhaps they are but just choosing not to comment.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Only 1% of readers comment E007

          2. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Does that make us special HG Tudor?

          3. 1% I’d never had guessed it was such a low percentage.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Yes, most people come to read the articles than comment.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Maybe younger people are not seeking out this information because they don’t know they need it. They seem to have convinced themselves it’s normal because it’s everywhere they look. I mean, if it’s not on a dating site or one that’s cluttered with half naked selfies, does it even have a chance? They won’t even click on it.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed.

          7. Empath007 says:

            You said what I was going to say NA in a perhaps… more direct fashion which is your style and I like about you haha. But young people are caught up in a very narcissistic world to begin with, also being young means that they thrive off of drama a lot more… at that stage in life it can often add excitement and intrigue.

            The percentage does not surprise me as I read for a long time as well before commenting… then suddenly I could not resist the urge to ask questions to a narcissist who was willing to answer them honestly ! Haha. Not exactly every day that happens 😂

            I’m an old soul, always have been… and have friends in my real life that vary in age from 20s – 60s. I enjoy all different kinds of people who have had different experiences to share.

            But I do often feel like the baby on this site 😂 haha.

          8. FYC says:

            As an interesting data point from Psychology Today:

            “One study found that 30 percent of young people were classified as narcissistic according to a widely used psychological test. That number has doubled in the last 30 years. Another study reported a 40 percent decline among young people in empathy, a personality attribute inversely related to narcissism, since the 1980s.”

            Plus, younger people 20-30 still believe the narcissist they are dating is awesome, but high maintenance, or cheating because they are confused, or really great but emotionally unavailable, or a player who ghosted them or dumped them via text. It would never occur to them it may be a narcissist.

          9. Violetta says:

            Some of my students seem oddly amorphous when it comes to barriers. One wrote a personal essay about her controlling boyfriend in high school, and didn’t seem to understand why I said the passage about “how hot he looked in his wife-beater shirt” was the best (and most chilling) sentence in the paper. Another told me one of her roommates said they should band together because they’re both Asian, and put pressure on her to go to frat parties with her and “dress slutty, or they won’t let you in.” I said as far as I knew, the frats would let you in if you were female and had a pulse, and the ones that spilled onto the sidewalks showed most women in jeans, same as we used to wear. I also said she didn’t have to hang with this girl or anyone, and if she’d rather go to a quiet party with kids from her major or just stay in and study, that was her business.

            It really horrified me that this girl knew less than we did in Jr. High. Some of the extreme feminists have dinned into their ears that women shouldn’t always be the ones to keep control of sexual situations, and guys should be responsible, etc., but the blunt fact is some guys will try to get you drunk or stoned or even slip you a roofie to get sex. By the time I got to college, I already knew how to pace myself, so if I had the impulse to slip off to a room with someone, I could decide what I was willing to do and not worry that I would pass out in the middle and wake up pregnant and clap-ridden in the middle of a major intersection, with no memory of how any of the above happened. I also had at least rudimentary radar about that guy you want to avoid (every frat has one).

            Between Cosmo and SATC, they’ve learned what they’re supposed to want, but I don’t think they’ve given much thought much to whether they actually want it.

          10. NarcAngel says:

            Well that’s it then HG. If we want to attract more young people here we have to advertise and post half naked selfies.

            You start it off.

            You certainly won’t lose any of the older ones haha.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha very good.

          12. Empath007 says:

            FYC that makes total sense ! What do you think attributes to the rise in narcissim in this younger generation HG ?

            This also explains why a lot of young narc men like to go for older women… it’s diffucult to find empaths amongst their age group I would imagine. As most young women have ditched the idea of romance and are perfectly satisfied to carry on strictly physical… shallow relationships.

          13. FYC says:

            Empath007, That is an interesting thought about empaths. I have not read anything that addresses their percentage since all other people (in terms of research on narcissism) are lumped into the category of non-narcissists. Even studies that look at degree of narcissism do not address empaths.

            My personal hunch as to the reason why narcissism is on the rise in younger people, is multivariate.

            One influencing factor is the parents of these young people (roughly ages 45-60 now) were raised at a time when being successful and accumulating/upgrading possessions was highly promoted in society (note entertainment of the era or advertising of the era) and family was not. Women were encouraged to focus on careers (because the prior generation of women could not), so dual working couples were most common (DINKs/YUPies).

            Research notes that the mother makes the greatest impact on the child’s self-esteem, self-acceptance, self concept within the first three years of life. Yet once a woman became pregnant, she was often only provided standard sick pay or vacation pay and men were not permitted family leave. It was not until 1993 that the family leave and medical act was put in place, providing still only 12 weeks of leave. As a result, the critical bonding prior was significantly interrupted. This had to negatively impact those children with a genetic predisposition to narcissism. Further, in corporate America, taking time away from work for child care needs was not favored (whether spoken about our not) even after the FMLA was in place. This combined with the higher cost of living and inflation would create stress for both parents and that would no doubt be felt by the child.

            At the same time there was an explosion of technology advancements. Technology positively correlates with more work hours. Technology is used for child care (monitoring, entertaining, etc.) instead of human bonding/interaction. For children born after 1995, the internet would have its influence. In 2004 Facebook was launched, followed by other social media. The all important “like” system raised a generation of kids that were literally programed to look outside themselves to others for validation. For children born after 2000, the camera-in mobile phone would be a factor and the smart phone by 2002 smart phones appears and by 2007 the iPhone was launched. I literally see babies in shopping carts showing their parents how they use the parent’s phone.

            So in summary, aside of natural selection possibly skewing toward GPD selections, and all things moving away from what psychological, sociological and behavioral scientists have determined is healthy for human development, I would say the result has been a rise in the number of possible narcissistic outcomes. I have probably left out many other important factors such as education (I do not have kids, but I know other parents that say the public schools are doing an abysmal job, yet many look to the schools to raise their children), and wealth, but these are some of the influencing factors I can think of off the top of my head.

        4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Kim e,
          I think you may be quite “surprised” at the age of Mr Tudor’s Tudorites
          😱
          Perhaps Mr Tudor could do a survey 😉Hehe
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      2. Anm says:

        NA, KimeE, and Witch,
        I have always enjoyed the wide diversity within this group. I didn’t know what narcissism was until I was 31/32ish, around the time I had my daughter. I had the most interesting experiences while i was expecting my daughter. I met some of the most badass women who knew what narcissism was, and had extensive experience with it. I believe it was a higher power combined with being a Magnet Empath that brought these women to me. I am an extremely private person, and I never vent about my personal life with most people. But I would randomly meet older women, and they would see I was pregnant, and then they would talk about how to deal with narcissistic exes. It was weird, because I would never disclose info about my life, but they would just blurt out their life experiences, and give me advice. Looking back, they were all extremely accurate, yet, their advice was very subtle in a way that it didn’t even seem directed towards me. So I always value life experiences and advice from women who have seen it all.

        1. Kim e says:

          ANM,
          HA! and just when I thought I had seen it all, along came a narc!!!

          1. Anm says:

            KimE,
            Here is an example… I remember listening to a lady talk about her high stakes divorce. She was litigating over millions of dollars. She had the most expensive attorney in my city. She told me, about how high conflict people have short attention spans, and will get preoccupied elsewhere. She never used the word narcissist, but she was definitely describing divorcing/splitting from a narcissist. She then told me how she gained 40lbs during her divorce. I was like, “maybe you are holding onto negative energy.” She was like, “nope, my body knows I am in battle, has put up an extra layer of armor, and I am not upset over it.” She is so right. When dealing with litigating against a narcissist, you need to consider their level of entitlement and attention span (what is in their fuel matrix) HG goes over this. And yeah, everytime I litigate against my ex, I will literally gain 15 lbs overnight, and it comes out of nowhere, and it wont go away until I am finished litigating. But i had many occasions and conversations like that, where i now look back, and say, “dang! That lady was right about that one conversation we had!”

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Anm
          Just want to say I hope all is going well for you and in getting the business under way. It’s nice to see you have something that is more focused toward your own growth and reward. All the best.
          NA

          1. Anm says:

            NA,
            It is actually going well. We have had bumps in the road. My city has implemented even more strict covid19 regulations due to recent spikes with new cases. My city is also dealing with the mountains have been on fire for a few weeks and there have been evacuations with that. So my community is a little down right now, but I am positive. My focus will always be on my kids, I have just gotten better at compartmentalizing my life, practicing radical acceptance, and now having the confidence to conquer challenges. It may sound like I am stuck here, but I am able to be pretty productive and successful in the real world. I just come here to soak up the info so I can strategize everything.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Anm
            I don’t see you as stuck, and you are utilizing this place in a great way.

  4. MB says:

    Watched an episode of one of my favorite HGTU learning enrichment shows last night. (Stalked Someone’s Watching) The host of the show is a criminal psychologist that experienced stalking and started a show to bring awareness. An abusive, controlling, stalking, ex-husband resurfaces after 15 YEARS of silence with threats and stalking and all manner of ways to “get his property back”. He gets 42 months in prison and is diagnosed as bipolar. The criminal psychologist says at the end of the show she believes that he will learn his lesson by the imprisonment and as long as he stays on his medication after he gets out, the target should be safe. I really did want to scream at her! The world is clueless. The world needs this information and needs it now.

    1. Anm says:

      MB,
      That is ridiculous! A few things going on here…. criminal justice in the USA does now favor rehabilitation over punishment. If you are convicted of a crime, and pretrial report or psychologist determined the crime was due to a mental illness, they will force the mentally I’ll person to take meds in prison during their incarceration period to stabilize them. While they are out on parole and probation, they are supposed to be monitored. If they “decompensate”, the judge will put them back in prison. However, prison doesn’t really teach anyone a lesson, not even for normal people. It’s either to keep someone from being a threat to the public, or just following establish laws, and an outdated system. I have also notice a BIG backlash with gender bias. Back in the day, people believed that police and the courts favored women, and went lighter on them, now I think they are actually more strict with women. Go to any jail around the holidays these days, and you will see a majority of women are there because of domestic violence, and the police deemed the woman as the “Primary Aggressor” or atleast half of the conflict. Women are also treated much harsher for failing to protect in domestic violence situations. Therefore, the courts are favoring the abusive males in the system right now. I’m not just saying this because I am female. I have seen this first hand.

  5. Claire says:

    This is one of my favourite HG’s articles! The only sound relationship article I have read !
    An absolute brilliancy!
    Another danger coming from these relationships gurus is the fact that some of them are narcissists themselves.
    This is my experience with one of them:
    When I was still entangled to Narc 2 ( and Narc 1 was still hoovering) , out of curiosity I found an article in Thought Catalog from the (self proclaimed )dating coach E . M. K. Apparently he is very popular so I subscribed to his free stuff , aka Relationship mistakes and even bought a book ( turned out to be useless ,as expected) .
    A massive red flag 1 – this guy emphasises on online dating and lures his victim promising to write an outstanding dating profile for $$$$ ( no joke)!
    A massive red flag 2 – he gladly shares his sugar coated story how he was a player , a commitment phobe until he met his wife and settled. This is what I call bullshit .
    Once a player always a player .
    And we know what the players are.
    And of course happy pictures of the happy family parading the wife and kids – maintaining the facade ?
    After few unsuccessful attempts to convince me to use his marvellous skills to help me with online dating profile , I sent a polite email that his advices were nothing knew , being tried unsuccessfully during my marriage and I didn’t need a dating profile.
    I didn’t receive any reply , just radio silence.
    This particular article made me nauseous:

    https://thoughtcatalog.com/evan-marc-katz/2016/10/why-men-look-for-sex-and-find-love-but-women-look-for-love-and-find-sex/
    HG, if this is a breach of the rules , please accept my apologies and remove the link.

    The moral of the story – only HG ‘ advices and books gave me the right answers.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hg approves.

      1. Another Cat says:

        Oh, that guy, EMK, that’s right Claire. Often comes up in googling. He made me believe classics like “If he likes you you’ll know and you never have to call him or initiate anything. A man will always make the arrangements” If it’s real love, the woman doesn’t have to do a thing.

        Geez those dreamworld dating coaches. You’re spot on. My favourite one is “How to get Your Ex back/a good relationship without playing games” And then they describe how to play games, tactics, lol.

        And those epiphany stories of conversion from player to loving husband, yes they sound like all those preachers claiming that they used to be atheist! Pffft

        1. Claire says:

          Another Cat, let’s not forget his “secret” how to win a man forever – to let the guy be your hero ! After reading that in his book I had mixed feelings – should I laugh and should I go to the bathroom to throw up.
          Then I though that I miraculously survived xx in this world without sitting patiently and crocheting, waiting for the knight in the shining armour to come and rescue me .
          And another piece of wisdom from the very same coach – to hide that you are actually a capable women with a job , some savings because the guy ( or should I say the loser ) might be somehow intimidated or overwhelmed.
          Just imagine you have been promoted and you cannot resist to call your boyfriend or sweetheart to share the joy and to suggest to go to your favourite pub or a restaurant to celebrate. You reach your phone and baam, the ghost of EMK appears telling that you are not supposed to call nor to make any arrangements. You must play by the rules and you must wait the boyfriend calling you first.
          You are in disbelief for few seconds, then you punch the ghost as hard as you can politely telling him to “ f *** off “ .
          Then you go to narcsite.com , search for Shelf life articles and the dangers of online dating and your sanity is restored.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Bravo!

  6. Fiddleress says:

    I was wondering: Is it quite common in the UK and the USA (or other countries) to hear people put into question the very existence of NPD? It is, where I live. Even among mental health professionals, especially psychoanalysts.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It does happen.

    2. lickemtomorrow says:

      No wonder they’re underdiagnosed.

      Although therapist/ciient confidentiality … who would ever know?

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Lickem
        I imagine it’s largely because it’s far more lucrative not to acknowledge narcissism and continue “probing”. More confusion=more visits.

        1. K says:

          Exactly!

        2. lickemtomorrow says:

          I still wonder how many therapist’s have it on their radar. I think referral to a psychiatrist is the only way to get an official diagnosis. Probably most narcs never get that far. And going by what HG says, it’s also easy for a narc to pull the wool over a therapist’s eyes. That could be another reason.

          The interesting thing is, I also went down the rabbit hole of attachment disorders with my narc. These can also be very explanatory when it comes to some narc behaviours. At least I thought so with mine. The push/pull dynamic exists in these scenarios as well.

          If you google ‘narcissism’ (which I’m sure we’ve all done … ugh!) you find plenty of commentary by psychologist’s and articles written. We meet and interact with them in our daily lives. Yet, somehow the yawning chasm between our exposure to one and them ever being diagnosed as such appears to be rarely ever crossed.

    3. Narc noob says:

      Fiddleress, same where I am also. Down-under is rather rare and I haven’t heard the term in all the so called “self development” courses or coaching I have done. Mind you, most are directed my ns.

      I responded to you on the Cross Pollution thread btw.

      HG, have you heard of Dr Demartini?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        No, but he sounds like a drinker.

  7. CandaceMarie says:

    I did share this on my Facebook.
    About a year ago I was watching Dr Phil. I know many people don’t like him because he may not even be a Dr. He had a couple on discussing their problems. The more I heard the more I was convinced the boyfriend was a narcissist. I thought for sure Dr Phil would point this out to the girlfriend. But no he didn’t, instead he made other excuses for this man’s bad behavior. He also promised to get them counseling. I was so furious by the end of the show I decided I would never watch Dr Phil again. I also sent Dr Phil an email explaining to him what I thought about his advice in this particular episode. Of course I never received a reply.
    I don’t understand why experts cannot bring up narcissistic abuse. I thought people wanted to stop domestic violence/abuse.

    1. MB says:

      I’m 95% certain Dr Phil is a narcissist. I’d like to see him go under The Tudorscope sometime. Some red flags there for sure.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Geeze, caught loving a narcissist again 😛

        Will the pain never end?

        1. MB says:

          LET, The pain ends with HG. He’s the last narcissist you’ll love!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Correct.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            🙂 Instead of the narcissist you love to hate, he’s the narcissist you hate to love …

            Because you’re going in with your eyes wide open.

            HG has removed all our excuses!

            He must order a decree … YOU ARE NOT TO LOVE HG 😉

          3. MB says:

            LET, It’s too late for me! I was smitten the first week. #addicted #mbknowsbetter

          4. Leea says:

            Lol! HG, I love you, too! Pain stopped. Real talk- thanks for helping me. I have had a much better week.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

        2. MB says:

          LET, Soooo, I reviewed the rules. There are no updates as to banned subject matter, however, there IS indeed a decree which I paste here:

          “If you are expecting to see my ‘dark side’ in action you are going to be disappointed. You will have to engage with me in real life to witness that. I would not advise you to do so.”

          I have to assume that the statement, “I would not advise you to do so.” goes for loving him too?

          #iflovinghgiswrongidontwanttoberight

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            The good advice just keeps coming here, but I’m with you on this one:

            #iflovinghgiswrongidontwanttoberight

            🙂

            #hopelessromanticsinc.

          2. Violetta says:

            As long as it’s from a distance, we’re okay.

          3. MB says:

            Agreed Violetta. Distance learning (and loving). Long, long across the ocean distance.

          4. CandaceMarie says:

            #iflovinghgiswrongidontwanttoberight

            Love it!

      2. NarcAngel says:

        MB
        I agree with you on Dr. Phil. I suppose if he has any awareness that explains not wanting to be shown up by having HG as a guest (not to mention keeping people in the dark and not exposing the behaviours of many of his “guests” as narcissism). That wouldn’t do when you’re milking the masses. But it didn’t stop me from pitching it to his staff anyway.

        1. MB says:

          NA, I’m guessing the staff didn’t reply?

          1. NarcAngel says:

            MB
            No reply despite a good business case. Was polite, brief, stated why I thought it was important, cited the ever growing stats and interest in narcsite and how they might benefit from that. More than once I may add and more than his show. Not even the consideration of a “thank you for the interest”. It would seem TNN (The Narc Networks) are PISSED about The Tude revealing their secrets and have colluded in this instance to deny him access to their platforms haha. They want to keep their various smokescreens and milking machines in place churning out cash. I think our focus is better served with Journalists and social media in sharing the articles.

            My husband (upon seeing Dr.Phil on tv): “How does that guy (okay he actually said fat fuck) even have a show? He has the same guests on everyday with the same problems and he never solves a one”. Just calls them “entitled and abusive” then farms them out to whatever “addiction” place pays the highest to get him to hawk them today.”

            NA: Bingo. Round and round they go.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Sounds like a variation on a theme to Jeremy Kyle in the UK. Well done for attempting to profile raise, it will succeed and you are all key to that happening.

          3. Witch says:

            @HG
            I don’t a tv but I saw a clip online of Jeremy Kyle cussing out a guy for sleeping with his dad’s girlfriend even though he was only 18 years old at the time and she was much older than him and she was trying it on with him.
            And i think the guy was saying that he was sorry but at the same time it wasn’t only his fault because the woman was pushing to get the ting. And JK just continued to cuss him out.
            The whole show is just JK going hard to embarrass people of low intelligence

        2. Violetta says:

          Phil is USELESS. Caught an episode when I was at a cafe where the mother favored one beauty contestant daughter over the chubby one with vitiligo, whom she made sleep in the closet on the floor. The mother said her daughter didn’t respect herself (no shit!), and Phil kept on pointing out that the child would need the mother’s support because she was going to be teased at school, etc., and it wasn’t her fault that she had vitiligo or that the mother was mad at her ex. Um, why are you appealing to empathy that this bitch clearly does not have?

          The only bright spot was the older daughter hated how mom was treating her younger sister, and clearly didn’t trust mom as far as she could throw her. She knew if she weren’t pretty, mom wouldn’t approve of her either. It was all about how people reflected on mommy. One hopes the older sister was a good influence on the younger.

      3. K says:

        MB
        I concur.

        1. MB says:

          No Tudorscope necessary!

          1. Narc Noob says:

            Yes from me to.

      4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Dear MB,
        I’m certain 💯 % MB
        The whole family are laughing all their narcissistic way to the bank 💰
        They found a marketing niche and exploited it with vulnerable people
        I can’t get over Mrs “tax deduction assistant” Robin’s face now 😱
        They could retire in their 32mil home, but their narcissism won’t let them
        I think they’re the ones who need psychological help 😂
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. MB says:

          I never would have seen it before my learning here. Dr. Phil’s arrogance is one thing, but the treatment of his wife is also telling. Also, the man has never been wrong. I need to watch an episode with my new narc spectacles on. I haven’t watched in a very very long time.

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest MB,
            Something about his bald head I just never liked 👴🏻
            🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            I actually thought his wife always seemed a bit docile or ‘dopey’, and for a man of his calibre, I couldn’t understand that. She was tiny, too! But, definitely something never sat quite right in that relationship for me. Even though she was there every show. Was that some kind of veneer or facade? Hmmm … interesting now that I think a little more about it. But, I haven’t watched him a quite a while and do remember an odd episode where I instinctively disagreed with him.

          3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear MB and Lickemtomorrow,
            I actually liked Dr Phil n Robin when they ” first ” started, but then something changed for me, things just didn’t sit right, I started seeing cracks and just stopped watching, totally went off the whole show
            I understand he’s been deregistered because he had an inappropriate liaison with his female “patient”
            There are reports of him not treating guests and his staff accordingly, law suits issued against him and guests who are suffering from mental issues from being on his show
            You can clearly see how worried he is 🤣
            Robin flaunts her extravagant lifestyle of the rich n famous, show piecing her house at Christmas with an over abundance of indulgences and has made a killing on her books, skin care range and home shopping network
            I personally don’t believe she should be dishing out advice on the show when she has no credentials or qualifications, there’s a term called public liability
            Hmmmm, I know about motherhood, being a wife, skincare, menopause, hormones and a little on narcissists, I should write a book 😂
            He was married once before to his high school sweetheart, but apparently changed and stopped being the kind sentive person prior to their nuptials and became more dominaneering and controlling
            He did not allow her to get involved with his health spa business, his idea was her domain was in the home and he always wanted her to “look nice”, which included lifting weights to bulk up her chest, she said he had a roving eye
            Whilst his marriage was being annulled, he started a relationship with Robin
            I believe, there’s more to his moustache than meets the eye 👁👴🏻🕵🏻‍♀️
            and Robin’s rearranged face 😱
            Excuse me whilst I go make a call to Oprah and name drop Mr Tudor 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. MB says:

            Bubbles, you’ve done your DP homework! All I knew is what met the eye. I smell a clear stepford devaluation. The way he puts his arm around her and marches out of every taping of the show is indicative of ownership and facade management. Any success she has had is due to “his” fame and only because he “allowed” it. (A clear extension of himself.) When you add in all of the information you’ve uncovered, my 95% sure becomes 100% N.

            Let’s not be too hard on Robin just yet though. I haven’t read her book, nor do I know anything about her other than surface observation and the knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors when you’re the IPPS of a narcissist. He has the means and control to have her (his property) moulded any way he sees fit and she damn well better raise no objections. She is most likely an abused woman with no sense of who she was before him and trapped into believing that she can’t escape. If she really wants some notoriety of her own, she would write another book; the real story of her life as Mrs. Dr. Phil, co-authored with commentary and explanations by The HG.

          5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest MB,
            Haha, yes, “my female intuition” made me curious n intrigued to find out more
            I’m inclined to agree with you MB and I’d say you’ve probably nailed it
            I have read her book “55 what’s age got to do with it”, about her health, fitness n women’s issues, it would be vol 1 in her “bible” collection for her followers
            She also likes to promote her religious beliefs and enhances it on a regular basis, always good for ratings
            She may well be the stepford wife and flaunting her “stuff”, gives her a feeling of worth and accepts it without question
            Maybe she’s “rearranged” her face “for him” and hence been moulded into the “expected image” she needs to portray, one must keep up with the kardashians after all
            That’s the dangerous aspect with narcs, how insidious it is
            Have you seen how skinny she is now ? 😱 Not one ounce of fat and she pounds her treadmill endlessly apparently
            Personally, I think she looked better before when she was her “natural” self
            I have seen them jestingly say “she’s the boss” of their relationship on one of his shows, in front of millions of viewers of course
            It’s what their audience wants and expects to see, the portrayal of the “perfect” white teeth, wrinkle free, ageless, long term loved up couple playing happy happy families living a life we all dream about
            Real life happy couples don’t exploit their love for money they’re too busy working on their own “private” relationship

            Is she a victim ? That the $64mil question only Mr Tudor will know
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          6. MB says:

            Bubbles, maybe he will do a piece on the couple at some point. It’s on the long list no doubt and for good reason. There are more couples in the news now that will be much more influential in spreading the word of narcissistic abuse. Ultimately, the aims are the same, the tactics to achieve them are the same. There are many flavors, but they are all essentially the same at the cold, hard center.

          7. Witch says:

            @bubbles
            The book sounds like trash. I just looked at some reviews and it confirmed that the book is superficial trash.
            It appears to be a list of intructions on how to be hyper feminine at 55; how to do your makeup and be skinny etc.
            Well, I’m going to go months without shaving at my age and when I’m 55 because luckily I’m not married to a dull narc critic called dr Phil

          8. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest MB,
            You’re quite right MB
            It might just be easier to name the “normals” there’s so few 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Witch,
          All that n more, of course she has a team of professional contributors and she’s just the fluff
          I recycled it back to the op shop along with 50 shades haha
          Now there’s 365 Days 😂 another piece of time wasting trash
          Egg whites work wonders as a mask haha
          Fear not, the hair stops growing in certain spots the older you get 😱
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Witch says:

            @bubbles

            When I’m 55 I hope I’m the tacky auntie who turns up to family gatherings already tipsy in a faux fur coat, and eyeliner smudged across my face, with edibles in my bag and says to everyone “nnnooo fuck off!” Whenever they tell me a crazy story.
            Otherwise what is the point of getting that old, if you still care what people think?

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Witch, that is literally my retirement plan along with illicit drugs and unlimited supplies of chocolate!

          3. Violetta says:

            Bubbles:

            Had to Google 365 Days. Oh dear. Think I’ll continue reading Defoe’s Journal of the Plague Year. It’s probably less painful.

          4. Ashley says:

            365 days 😅 my friends have told me how sexy the movie is to the point they don’t physically know what to do. I’m like nope, can’t watch it with you sorry bc I’ll fall in love with Massimo during day one. No 365 necessary for me. When he says, “Are you lost babygirl?” Yes daddy I am lost, come get me, please kidnapp me, grab me by the neck, etc. I can’t. Send help. I feel a heartbeat just thinking about it. I can’t watch it in full

          5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Witch,
            Did you just describe Patsy from Ab Fab ? 🤣
            Just so you know, everyone always luvs the “quintessential” single fun so called aunt
            “fabulous, darling” 🥂🍾
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          6. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Violetta,
            Hahahahaha, the telephone book is pretty terrific….. great cast 😂
            Our daughter actually mentioned it to us haha
            We watched it so we can keep up with the latest
            It makes for great banter over family dinners (which we do on a regular basis) especially with a few espresso martinis n mojitos 🍹🍸
            I’m thinking of serving Ottolenghis meatballs for the next dinner 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. Witch says:

            @bubbles Oh yes Patsy!
            @Alexis
            I’m going to be Pasty and when I’m retired I’m also going to get a tattoo on my face

          8. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Witch,
            What tattoo are you envisaging for your face lovely, if don’t mind me asking ?
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          9. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Ashley,
            In my opinion, 365 days promotes sexual abuse mentally n physically and Stockholm syndrome
            One simply doesn’t kidnap a person then expects them to fall in love with them
            Massimo is a dominant alpha male, stalks Laura and gropes her without her consent
            The sexual content is obviously what attracts, however, the plot is extremely narcissistic
            It’s a very abusive toxic relationship and it’s not ok to try and “normalise” this as being acceptable behaviour in my book
            “Consensual” sex is totally different
            Getting married to the narcissist is not your happy fairytale ending, it’s just the beginning
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          10. Violetta says:

            Bubbles:

            “One simply doesn’t kidnap a person then expects them to fall in love with them”

            That is exactly the premise of John Fowles’ novel The Collector and the film made of it. Things do not end well.

          11. Witch says:

            @ Bubbles

            I’m thinking a Maori-esque tattoo, either on my chin or forehead.
            A year ago when I was in a different country and feeling impulsive I asked a tattoo artist to tattoo a black line down my chin but the guy said he’ll charge me £150… so I declined, £150 for a straight line you know! Usually something that simple is about £50-£70.
            I don’t think he wanted me to get it done so he was trying to put me off lol because he kept saying “your face??” “Your face? Are you sure?” Lol

          12. NarcAngel says:

            Witch
            Don’t do a tattoo on the face. When you get old and your face starts caving in it’ll just look like a sink hole and people will start asking how long you’ve got left.

          13. Witch says:

            Haha NA
            Sorry but I have to disagree, I’m sure the Maori elders still look amazing with their tattoos. Plus I have oily skin and “good genes” in that regards, so may not ever look my age but even if I do look all wrinkled up by 80, I honestly don’t think I’d give a shit by that point

          14. HG Tudor says:

            How about a spider’s web and ‘cut here’?

          15. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Witch,
            I understand the Maori tattoo art on the face was a symbol of rank, social status, power and prestige
            I personally am not a fan of tats
            Our son has always wanted his “ancestory” tattoo on his arm since he was 16, so he improvised with a fake one as a trial
            He still doesn’t have one !
            It’s a bit like a narc, it’s all great in the beginning, but it never goes away !
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          16. Witch says:

            HG
            I’m not that tacky, thank you! But thank goddess I didn’t get anything done as a teenager because I imagine I would’ve got something emo and tragic like ‘cut here.’
            I say “imagine” but I definitely would have

          17. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Violetta,
            Thank you for your reference lovely (I looked it up)
            I’d say, Miranda was doomed either way
            If she had survived a horrific trauma like that, she’d be scarred for life anyway
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  8. lickemtomorrow says:

    I absolutely love this!

    Thank you HG for being so persistent in your research and recording of situations where so often the narcissist is hidden in plain sight.

    After my second most recent disengagement from the narcissist (that lasted a couple of months) I went to all these numerous sites looking for advice. I resisted any attempts at closure with my narcissist and left him high and dry when he delivered me to ‘no man’s land’. But, I still wanted to know what that disengagement meant in terms of the relationship and how best to handle it, all with the possibility of winning him back, of course.

    I watched countless videos from coaching gurus, and texts, advising how to handle the situation and the ‘no contact rule’ for dealing with such a situation. Now I know about a very different ‘no contact’ rule and one designed for reality and not fantasy. But then, I had already, and unknowingly, implemented a form of no contact.

    It led me down a path where I was inclined to keep hanging on, and delighted at the various inroads I thought were being made with the inevitable hoovers. To me they were signs that he still wanted me, but without the understanding of what I was providing to him, which was fuel.

    In fact, I got an email in my inbox this morning from one such coach to do with ‘ghosting’! How relevant your post is today. They offer all the right platitudes, but never an insight into what might really be going on and who (the narcissist) might be behind it.

    Every time I see these emails appear now I just shake my head and thank God I’ve come so far already in this journey. I could never have done it without you.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you again.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome LET, more people should pay heed to this article and what is explained. Thank you for sharing your experiences with regard to the rubbish which is out there.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        I agree more people should pay heed to what you are sharing, HG, and am happy to share my own experiences around that for the benefit of others if it will help them.

        It is rubbish, and just keeps us hoping (something empaths are more than inclined to do) to our detriment. So thank you again.

        Oddly enough, I watched ‘He’s just not that into you’ last night … relating that to one of the comments you bring up here. If there was ever a movie to keep you hanging on it’s that one!

        “Your are my exception”

        I wonder how many narcs ever used that line? Every girl wants to be the exception.

        There’s also a hilarious moment where a couple of black women actually tell it like it is. That has now become the highlight of this movie for me.

        But definitely people should be taking it back to these dating coaches, like CandaceMarie took it back to Dr. Phil.

        (True confessions: I love Dr. Phil :P)

    2. Another Cat says:

      In fact HG it would be lovely if you could do a special article or Logic Bulletin about this “No Contact For 30 Days After Being Dumped” advice which has been swimming around the internet for decades. They all charge a lot for consultations.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Tell me more AC, send me an email.

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        Definitely! It’s one of the mantras of the coaches seeking to assist in relationship breakdowns.

        I was quite effectively convinced I was on the right track when I read this ‘rule’. Some suggest no response even if contacted for those 30 days, others recommend a response if contacted in those 30 days, and most ultimately had a focus on working on yourself in that time as opposed to focusing on the ex partner as a way of utilizing those 30 days. Not all of them would swear by it being the ‘magic’ number, but generally it was to be no less than that.

        The possibility of a hoover from a narcissist never entered the picture.

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