The Creature
30 thoughts on “The Creature”
Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)
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Dear Empaths,
We can not understand a narcissist and they can not understand us. Information and communication can help us learn to empathize with them but right now we are not meant to truly understand each other. The purpose of a relationship and interaction with a narcissist is to understand YOURSELF and to evolve. That’s it! We can’t fix narcissists or change them. They are what they are and we need to simply accept what they are. The burden of responsibility for everything that sucks in their lives is on them.
I’m still not convinced it’s as simple as saying the non narcs that stay with narcs are empaths. I think this needs to be explored much more. Most so called empaths that are with narcs lack empathy or have very selective empathy in my opinion. That part has never made sense to me
It may seem that way for to a reduction in their empathy because of the abuse they’re are dealing with. Remove the abuser, ie the narcissist, and in time the empathy returns, if they are an empath.
Character traits help to fortify the construct. Residual benefits a nice to have or a need to have dependent on financial position. Neither of these cause panic if withdrawn. Fuel causes panic. If your IPPS escapes, you aren’t spurred into action because you think, ‘ damn there go my free tickets to that film premier.’ You are spurred into action because that loss causes your chest to tighten and the panic to rise.
The most important fuel source just walked out the door. You turn to the rest of the fuel matrix to supplement, which it can, for a time, but not long term. I don’t see that this is purely down to proximity and length of time spent together with the IPPS. You panic because you can’t stand to be ignored or rejected. I don’t need to yell at you, I just need to turn away from you and walk out the room when you’re talking to me. What you seek is attention and affection. You have no emotional empathy. You can’t deliver love. You don’t feel love when It’s directed to you, not exactly. But you recognise it, and with it comes a sense of security.
Control is the by product of the need to maintain the fuel supply. Lose control, lose the flow of fuel. Like hunger, need for fuel rises and falls. Exertion of control likely falls in line with it.
Sorry, wrong spot. In answer to HG comment re Prime Aims.
No, control is not the by product.
Control is necessary to secure the Prime Aims. It also makes you feel more secure. (I think you would choose ‘ it also makes me feel powerful.’) Is that closer?
I mostly understand the steps or concepts if you like.‘ I gaslight to create confusion which increases my ability to control.’ as a rough round the edges example.
I’m interested in how you ‘ feel’ at each stage though, not necessarily just what must be done and why.
For example, how does it actually feel to be low on fuel ?
Smoking analogy again. When you stop smoking and the nicotine level starts to fall, the brain registers the drop. So it logically tells you to light another. If you concentrate on how this actually feels, you can’t easily describe it. It feels like an ‘I want’ but there’s no real definition to it. It feels a bit like mild hunger or thirst in reality. At which point due to programming, you start to feel panicky. But in actual fact, if you really look at it, the issue is just a mild hunger or thirst. You don’t go batshit crazy when you feel slightly hungry, but people giving up smoking do go batshit crazy thinking they need and no longer are allowed to have, a cigarette. The cigarette due to conditioning, association, miseducation, Nicorette advertising, is given overinflated importance/ power.
So if you were to take all the associations away from fuel and concentrate only on how it actually feels to be low on fuel, how does it actually feel?
I loved it!
I enjoyed your voice in this one HG, it was like a gothic short story.
It also reminded me of the this song by cinema strange called “Lindsay trachea” about an alter ego that slits it’s hosts throat (at least that how I interpreted it)
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/genius.com/amp/Cinema-strange-lindsays-trachea-lyrics
Thank you.
Does anyone understand you HG?
In what context?
Not in a work context or a teaching context here on the blog.
You spend so much time portraying what others want or expect you to be. You did that growing up, university, post grad. Chasing approval from matrinarc. You do it in relationships at the start at least. “You want charm? You got it. Nice holiday? Already booked.” You admit to essentially buying friends. Or, at least you believe that if everything went pop tomorrow they would cease to be around.
As such, it is no surprise that you are caught in a loop. Repeating over and over. Maintaining and pushing forward without daring to stop or look back. In your quieter moments though, amongst it all, past and present, is there anyone that knows you well enough to care about you for you? Someone that is actually let in enough so that they understand and accept who you are? (Who you are, I don’t like ‘what’). A childhood friend perhaps?
My apologies if this is too personal a question. I’m actually formulating a theory here.
No.
It must be interesting then, for you to see how you are regarded on the blog.
Thank you for answering HG.
Just curious now that I see this question… would you ever want someone to “get” you ?? For example if you have other greater narcissist friends or lovers, do you feel more “yourself”
Around them. Feel less like you’d need to wear a mask ? Since these people truly understand your perspective ?
No. That would not happen so it would be pointless to want that.
So fascinating. I find I really enjoy being “understood” when I speak, having a unspoken bond with someone.The person I consider my “soul mate” is another female and the relationship is platonic as we are both heterosexual… I never have to explain myself to her, I can be completely me… I of course (due to my own perspective) assume others would want this same feeling…. My narc dated another narc before me… I never understood why he was tossing her to the side (although he used her to traingulate etc) I get it now… she wasn’t a great provider of fuel (or at least not the kind he needed). But I could always tell they had the unspoken bond between them… at the time I did not know it was narcissism. But it was clear to me they “got” each other. That they were similar…
Don’t you think like attracts like ?? you’ve even said yourself… that’s why narcs mirror…. so we think they are just like us, we are falling in love with ourselves, so wouldn’t the theory ring true for narcissists also ?
No, narcissists are attracted to empaths because empaths cater to the Prime Aims better than anybody else and empaths are drawn to narcissists owing to the addiction.
Couldn’t a narc be love bombed though ?
Also in the case of Epstein and Ghasline… wouldn’t that be of “benefit” (from their perspective) to be able to gather fuel and victims together. Making their deranged goals more “successful”.
From what I can witness. Narcs make better couples with one another. They are able to gain power and control together. And in a way protect each other from outside “nay sayers”. There are some solid narc couples. Kim
And Kayne, Bill and Hilary.
I’m just fasnicated by narcs colliding. From what I’ve witnessed (and I could be wrong) they can in fact love bomb each other… usually they achieve this by trying to elevate the other narc on the pedestal. And encouraging them to pursue their ambitions no matter how silly they may seem to
Others… like Kayne running for president, and Kim becoming a lawyer.
I understand empaths are easier to abuse because we have a much wider range of reactions owing to our totally different world view. But I still think narcs make great couples.
A narcissist can love bomb another narcissist and yes, some narcissist couples appear to function effectively, but it is not the case that narcissists make better couples with one another, at least from the narcissistic perspective, the most effective couple is narcissist and empath, for the vast majority of narcissists.
This is probably one of the topics that interests me the most and so therefore, I am going to express some more thoughts I have on it.
You say empaths better suite “The Prime Aims” however… 2/3 other narcissists can provide to another narcissist, those being Character Traits and Residual Benefits. The only one empaths are “better” at is Fuel/Control.. which really boils down to the fact… empaths are easier to abuse, empaths are viewed as weak and pathetic (in the eyes of a narcissist).
So therefore, narcissists would want an empath the majority of the time. Is this “better” though ? I suppose it depends on one’s definition of better. If the definition of better is having more control over someones emotional output.. then yes, that is better. Would all narcs want this? Naturally.
I would venture to play devils advocate here though and say that for some of your lower and mid range brethren… they may be missing the mark on what is actually “better” for them. I know this sounds strange, but hang in there with me… I would like to try and make a point about (some) situations. Obviously this does not apply to all, but gives some context as to why I think narc couples can at times be better.
1) Narcs can gather fuel together. Technically they would be more powerful and in control (which is the first prime aim) if they team up together. In my eyes, they would actually be more effective at achieving ALL the prime aims by targeting victims together instead of separate.
2) They understand each other. This may sound very “Empath” of me. But its true. They know how to speak to one another because they completely understand the others perspective (even if its unconscious). I am always in awe of this. They can still control each other its just not in the same way I suppose…
Watching my own personal situation, my own narc has far more interest in abusing women then elevating himself or his career in any sort of meaningful way. He has not made any strides with his career in the nearly decade I’ve known him. He is staying stagnant because his focus is on abusing women to make himself feel high and mighty when really… he is lowly and pathetic. Narcs could help themselves sometimes if they would just stop obsessing about control over their intimate partners and actually take steps to achieve Their goals properly. And at times.. this means making themselves more effective, by adding another narc in the mix, and the intimate familial bond is one of the most powerful there is.
Empath007,
I reeeaaallllly like your perspective, here.. Very interesting, indeed..
Empath 007,
I see your point. I think logically in many ways it makes perfect sense. From the narcissists viewpoint I see two main issues with two narcissists in a relationship.
1. The fight for Supremacy. They each must have control. One will assert himself as more dominant than the other and likely cause the less dominant partner to disengage. They are wired for control. I don’t believe they could make a conscious decision to give up part, or share it.
2. Fuel. Given lack of emotional empathy, the fuel can never be as potent. So both are essentially left lacking in fuel. Devaluation to switch from positive to negative is unlikely. The narcissist wouldn’t put up with it. Too easy to cut and run given lack of emotional empathy.
3 Tentative third point. Narcissists do recognise and want love. It is what was sorely lacking during their formation. Never held, never picked up when hurt, cuddled or listened to. Abused, punished, silenced, starved, mistreated, held captive, ignored. They have formed in such a way as to be incapable of giving love, likely due to this pain of constant rejection / abuse as children. In some ways, it’s an elegant solution.
This does not mean that they don’t recognise or desperately crave love. In some ways I suspect they want it as much as we do, but need it more. This is why the IPPS is the holy grail of fuel. They feel loved. They’ll call it power. They sell themselves during the golden period in order to secure it. They control every aspect in an attempt to maintain it. The sad fact is that the need for love is so intense that it can never be satisfied. In effect the IPPS is being asked to supply as much love as is needed to redress the balance of years of abuse, neglect and overall glaring lack of affection. It’s an impossible task, a hole that cannot be filled. Once they think this love is starting to wane, the walls come up and devaluation begins. The petulant child arrives back on the scene ‘ I knew this would happen.’ Tantrums ensue. Frustration, disappointment, feelings of rejection, blame, anger, ‘why me?‘. Pure rage at the unfairness of it all. And it is unfair. They are flung right back to where they started, the ignored child “not permitted to speak.”
The narcissist can’t experience love from another narcissist. The key ingredient is therefore missing. They will always be driven to find the most abundant source. The one who can hopefully redress the balance and fill the void. The Empath.
Thanks Behkah.
If you’ve ever witnessed two narcs in a dance… it is a spectical to be admired. Bill Clinton would not have been able to maintain his good standing with the public had it not been for the fact his wife is also a narcissist (in my opinion). Had his wife been an empath (like say in the case of Princess Diana and Charles) he would have been cast an evil vilian and the empath wife stood a much higher chance of leaving the marriage with full public support. Since he’s married to a narc, she has interest in protecting the facade, she will help him cover up any dirty tracks, she will deny allegations against her husband, she will not speak publicly on the matter… all of this makes the intregral team work of two narcs.
Certain kinds of narcs obviously “fit” together better then others. But given their goals are generally world dominance (slight exaggeration there lol) they are better to achieve those goals together.
If all Lee the Lesser has in life is the ability to throw his fists around at his wife and children.. let’s face it. By societies (at large) point of view… he’s achieved nothing. Should lee the lesser be love bombed by another narc… perhaps this could elevate him to a new level. As it would be clear his old tatctics would not work on this new partner.
Sharing a worldview is undoubtedly one of the strongest bonds two people can have.
Also, while the narc sees it as best for them to exploit someone’s empathy (whether concious or unconscious). That’s still no good for the partner. So It’s not a “better” pairing simply for the reason it’s no good for us. Once empaths get that… it helps us tremendously.
Hello TS !! Thanks for adding to the convo, I love this topic haha.
Based off of my own personal witnessing of narc couples. I still remain confident that there are certain narcissists who make better couples then the empath/narc mix.
I’ll respond to your points with my own personal examples:
1) Dominance. I actually think it works better when one narc has the upper hand over the other. Typically, I think Two things will grant this : 1) Gender, in a heterosexual couple 2) Type of narcissist.
For example, put a greater with a mid ranger. The mid ranger is envious of the greater. They have all the power they seek, as well as the successes behind it. The greater ends up keeping the mid ranger “in line” so to speak. So they get the benefit of being the more powerful one… and the midranger can gain control in other ways ( namely, residual benefits).
2) from my own personal perspective… when someone says they can’t get fuel as well… what they really mean is they can’t abuse them as easily. Which is true. They can’t abuse them the same way they can an empath. But there’s nothing romantic or loving about it… the want (whether unconscious or consciously) to exploit empathetic traits and kick someone while their down to make them feel high and mighty.
No, they can’t get that from each other… but they CAN gather it together from a whole bunch of other sources (family, children, employees etc). So the way I see it there is no lack of fuel to be gathered. There is still a benefit of working as a team.
3) I used to think that way too. But I think saying they are searching for love is giving them too much credit and also applying the empaths perspective to what they think and feel. They want someone to love them… so that they can make them feel
Like an idiot for doing so. They enjoy controlling someone’s emotions. It makes them feel big and strong. So they could have no other accomplishments in there life but they feel powerful if they can hit their wife and make her cry.
Narcs do beleive they are feeling love. It’s very easy to mix infatuation with love.
From my empath POV, nothing is more powerful then sharing a worldview together. That in itself creates a bond between people. A true bond. Not a trauma bond which is what we experience while bonding with them.
Anyways. I remain confident in my point that many narcs are missing the mark in actually acheiving their goals over dominating others… and that’s aligning themselves with their own Kind.
It would certainly be safer for us if they did so 😊.
Fuel is an interesting word. It suggests the energy necessary to power something, without actually describing the type of energy. Given that fuel is drawn from many kinds of source then it does not refer simply to love. Admiration, pure control, any combination of emotional output really from secondary and tertiary sources.
The IPPS is regarded differently and her fuel the most potent. Fair play she is in close proximity and clocks up more hours than the other sources. I don’t believe that that is all that is in play though. Even HG with an extensive fuel network still always wants an IPPS. He can’t fulfil his fuel quota without her in the matrix, not long term. She is different, her fuel provides something else. Understand exactly what that is and we probably get closer to answering the narc on narc scenario.
It is about the Prime Aims, fuel and control are a substantial part of that, but they are not the only part.
I mean…. I know I’m gonna get sent to the dungeon for saying this.. But Prime Aims is a nice way of saying “Abuse”. Narcs want to abuse someone. Someone who they regard as weaker and someone who has a large emotional output so that they can witness their own control in action. Narcs do not admire our attributes, they sense them… and wish to exploit them. Narcs can find other narcs with the same attributes but because they lack emotional empathy they are not as easy to abuse. Let’s not sugar coat what’s really going here.
No, most narcissists do not see it as abuse and therefore to say they want to abuse someone is once again placing your worldview on that of the narcissist. The vast majority of narcissists do not want to abuse someone because they do not regard what they are doing as abusive. Instead, they do not even see what they are doing OR they know it troubles that person and may be regarded as abusive by others BUT from the narcissistic perspective the narcissists behaviour is explained or justified because of the behaviour of the victim. Again, most narcissists do not wish to exploit the victim because they do not, because of the narcissistic perspective, see it as exploitation.
I understand what you are trying to explain. For my own purposes. It helps me to be less empathetic towards a narcissist if I hold them accountable for their actions the same
Way I would hold myself accountable for my own. It helps me process the abuse better. And it’s just the way (that I personally) need to look at it. Because I don’t forgive him for what he has done. And I never will. And I don’t need to
Feel guilty about that because he “didn’t know better “
I realize that’s not at ALL what you were trying to explain to me. I know you are not trying to make me feel guilty or deny abuse took place.
It’s just my perspective of how I need to look at it for myself.