Caught In A Lie




I have explained previously that lying is like breathing for our kind. Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists tell lies and believe them, they are their truth. They do not recognise that they are lying and therefore there is no question of guilt, remorse or conscience because they do not see that they are doing something which is seen as wrong by you. Such is the joy of ignorance.

Greater Narcissists tell lies where some are believed by the Greater, the True Believer Status of those narcissists which operate in the rarefied atmosphere of control, power and privilege and are responsible for many of the glories and ills of the world you inhabit. However, much of the lies of the Greater are conscious lies and are told because of our innate Machiavellian nature wherein the end justifies the means and therefore there is nothing to be lost by knowingly lying and everything to gain. Unhindered by guilt, conscience or remorse, we will knowingly tell lies to serve our needs which will include the sheer entertainment of knowing we are lying and the impact it has on our victims.

What about when the narcissist is caught in a lie? Many of you will have witnessed this. The Greater is not caught in a lie because the sheer force of our lies, the level of our intellect and the extent of our scheming means that the lie is either undetectable or if it is, we are not caught in it. There is always an exit, whether that is through charm, massive plausible deniability or the operation of some manipulation, the Greater may occasionally have a lie exposed, but is never caught in it.

But what about the the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist? You will have caught them in a lie on many occasions. What happens and surely their reaction means that they know they are caught lying?

No, it does not.

If you boldly accuse a narcissist of lying or you are less candid so you present a contradictory state of affairs between what the narcissist has said and some other evidence, what will you be met with?

This amounts to a challenge to the narcissist. You will be presenting Challenge Fuel and thus there is no wounding. However, your challenge to the narcissist by suggesting, forcefully or with subtlety that he or she has lied, is stating that the narcissist is wrong and thus you are offending the narcissists sense of superiority and seeking to pin accountability on the narcissist. You are not allowed to do this.

These challenges to superiority through our sense of entitlement to do what we want and need and to the lack of accountability threaten our control. Thus you will meet the First Line of the Twin Narcissistic Lines of Defence, which is denial.

You will be told that you are wrong, that this never happened, that you are incorrect, that you are making scandalous accusations, that your memory is haphazard or that you are making things up. All of these things and others amount to denial.

Denial will be maintained again and again and again until either you give up (thus giving the narcissist control and your challenge has ended) or you present something (usually independent corroborative evidence (such as a text, a picture, a video recording or somebody else’s testimony). If you do the latter you break through the First Line and thus you expose the lie.

This means the narcissist MUST in order to maintain control, fall back to the Second Line of the Narcissistic Twin Lines of Defence, which is in effect, any other manipulation and we have plenty of those. To understand more about the Twin Lines of Narcissistic Defence, read The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence.

However, if you break through the First Line and present evidence showing a disconnect between what the narcissist says has happened and something else, has the narcissist not seen that he has lied? Does he not gain knowledge that he has lied? Is she not now fixed with realisation that she has lied?


The reaction you see is not of realisation that a lie has been exposed but instead the reaction to the loss of control, which you, understandably (because of your worldview) but mistakenly, see as realisation of been caught lying.

It is not.

It is a realisation that something is not right. The unconscious loss of control manifests in a conscious response through the application of the Second Line.

Thus, this is why the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist does not know that he or she is lying and does not see the lie has been exposed, they merely sense a threat to their control and you become the problem which results in the application of a further manipulation through the application of the Second Line.

Dependent on the school of narcissist, the response may be plausible or be completely ridiculous, but it will be used because the narcissist is blind to the lie. All that matters is asserting control and quashing your challenge in some way.

You may receive some ridiculous comment which lacks credibility but it will be accompanied by a manipulation such as physical violence, smashing the phone on which your evidence is presented, a circular conversation, a bout of projection, a sudden massive word salad or any other form of manipulation from the many at our disposal, but it will always come.

It is akin to those films where someone is home alone and the madman or monster bursts into the house. The victim falls backwards, frantically scrambling away and reaching for anything, absolutely anything to use against the advancing threat to counter it. Sometimes the victim will reach for a gun and shoots countering the aggressor, thus that narcissist came up with a plausible response to being caught in a lie, sometimes the victim throws a knife, a candlestick or a rubber chicken. All have varying levels of effectiveness – just like the plausibility of the lie. Often you will still see through it, but it is the accompanying manipulation which enables the narcissist to scramble free of being caught in the lie.

You know the lie has been told, but that is not the issue. It is control and that is what the narcissist seeks. Even if the lie remains live and on the record, if control has been attained by punching you, flouncing off, shouting at you or embarking on a thirty minute word salad monologue then that is all that matters.

But now, let us hear from you, when you have caught the narcissist in a lie, share with me, those absolute corkers and belters that would have Pinocchio embarrassed. Explain the circumstances and what was said and then look at what else happened alongside it to realise how it is not so much the lie that matters but the need for control.


94 thoughts on “Caught In A Lie

  1. Anna says:

    Everybody lies. Everyone. To deny this, is a lie.
    Children learn about the tooth fairy, Santa Claus. All a lie. Constant lies, everywhere. Politicians being the worse.

    Truth is relative.

    You ask for an opinion on how you look. Someone may lie in an attempt not to hurt your feelings.

    We are all brought up learning that lying is wrong. Yet in the great hypocrisy, our parents lied to us about pretty much everything.

    There are no monsters, no need to be scared- A lie!
    Santa Claus- A lie!
    Tooth fairy- A lie!

    As terrible as it is. The truth hurts the most, the fact that most people do lie. Even the supposedly good people.

    1. A Victor says:

      Yes, but as one of the supposedly good people, once I realize I have been less than honest in some way, I will work hard to try to ensure that doesn’t happen again. Even if someone asks how they look, if I can’t say something truthful and nice, I will say “Well, are you sure want my opinion?”. It bothers my conscience very much to know I’ve said something that is less than 100% accurate, but I also know there are usually ways of doing so that are less painful than others, so that is where I go. Being here has helped me immensely with seeing the lies I once told myself to get through life with narcissists. Now, unless I allow that addiction free reign, I don’t see any reason to go back to that dishonesty. That addiction is what is so scary, still.

      1. Anna says:

        This is very true A Victor. It is scary how when you are around certain people, their behaviour even though abnormal becomes the norm as you get used to it. This is not good. It is important to break the addiction and cut ties with toxic people. To be able to grow, reach your full potention and not become like they are. Lowering your standards so to speak. What I find frightening is with some of those with NPD when caught in a lie, they will just spin you another one. Even if it is totally ridiculous and they seem to honestly believe what they are saying is true. Even if others tell them this is not really what happened. No apology either, ever. They can never back down, never admit they make mistakes, or lie. Instead just keep on making up elaborate stories. This is why it is so important to cut ties or if you cannot go no contact to remain detached and not get too close.

        1. A Victor says:

          Well, I would never become like a narc, I’m not a narc. I would never feel comfortable telling lies, not that I’ve never done it, I just don’t like it, guilt weighs on me. And thankfully I am in ANC with the last known narc in my life, things are looking up. But, I will have respect for the power of my addiction for the rest of my life, if I am not careful about that, I could be ensnared again, I’d rather be alone.

    2. Joa says:

      If I see the need to do so, I lie without embarrassment. If it helps someone, contribute to some good or protect me/my relatives – I will lie.

      If you say you are not lying. You are lying.

  2. Carol says:

    I don’t know if my ex is a greater or mid narcissist… but here is my story. Three months ago my ex boyfriend asked my dad if he could marry me. Then a month ago my friend caught him on bumble (a dating app). I got home after finding out, confronted him, and ended up slapping him on the face as he kept denying it (it was wrong and I’m not proud of it). Then he simply kicked me out. He left his house and told me I had to leave with my dog immediately. I am a foreigner and know almost no one here, and he never checked on me. I saw he had a profile on another dating app, and catfished him on that one with a fake profile, and he also simply denied it. No explanations, just said that wasn’t him and that wasn’t a proof of anything – since I didn’t see him actually doing it I couldn’t say that was him. I still love him, so I told him I’ll be a better person controlling my emotions (since he broke up with me because of the slap), and all I wanted from him was his honesty and that he promised he wouldn’t do that again. And again, he told me he was always truthful and never cheated on me, and never did anything wrong, and he knew the kind of man he was. It seems like he truly believes he has integrity and that he never lied. I just can’t understand. He’s so good at it that I sometimes believe him, but then I remind myself of all the evidence I had against him. Im hurting so very much, and it hurts even more that he won’t even acknowledge his actions or the pain he has caused me.

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      Carol, I’m so sorry that you are going through all this pain right now. I’m not sure how long you’ve been here, but keep reading, all the articles and comments and over time your pain will dissipate.

      He will likely never give you the answers you’re looking for, he enjoys the fuel he gets from your response plus dupers delight from knowing he is fooling you. All you’re doing by keep engaging with him is prolonging your own heartache through continued emotional infection.

      He sounds mid-range to me, but it matters not what type of N he is. An N is an N is an N and they hurt and always will.

      Huge hugs and love, stay here and keep reading.

    2. Joa says:

      Carol, I understand you very well. I remember, what you describe. “My N” never got caught, but I could feel it and there were signals.

      I became terribly jealous, suspicious, and obsessively investigative.

      I couldn’t bear myself in relation to him. I didn’t like myself and what I was doing, it didn’t suit me. Yes, that was the general reason our paths diverged, and it was only a matter of time.


      Step by step, little steps, look for anchor points, work, friends, hobbies, whatever, find an alternative. Just don’t shut up on it, that’s enough. You will part when you feel you can.

    3. Anna says:

      This is an awful situation to be in. You must stay away from this person. They are clearly manipulative and abusive. You must protect yourself. You deserve much better! These people never change.

  3. cadavera says:

    Oh boy, this just happened a couple of days ago and it was a DOOZY! I’ll try and keep it as short as possible since so much happened. It was late, about 2am, and I was in my car with the narc behind a building where he likes to hunt around and find tools that people have discarded from neighboring businesses. His brother showed up and since they both do the same shit, they were outside doing their thing. I was inside my car with the narc’s puppy. The brother started up his van and drove away. I thought my narc went with him since he was suddenly gone too. I waited and waited. 45 min goes by and I’m tired of sitting back there so I text his brother (my narc breaks his phone constantly so it was non-operable) and tell him to let my narc know that I’m moving my car across the lot to a better lit area. The brother says my narc is behind me about 2 min away. Idk what behind me means but whatever. I decide to go look for him cuz there are cops out and I just want to be on our way. I drive around the block, looking for him but see nothing. I go back to where we originally were and still no sign. I text his brother and say that I don’t see him anywhere and the brother says he should be getting there by now. I drive around the buildings and back out to the street, still looking for him and don’t see him. I return back to where we started and now I’m really getting irritated and suddenly start thinking that maybe he met up with my replacement as I know what’s up with that. It’s now been over an hour since he took off without a word. I finally go back to the street where my narc parks his car and there he is loading some things into it. I just sit in my car across the street from him and wait. He finally comes over to my car and is pissed off as all hell, saying I passed him and his brother 4 times and was within 10 feet of him when I did so. Now my night vision isn’t great but come on. He’s done this same thing to me several times before and made me wonder if I’m that blind. This time, I tell him there’s no way he was right there in front of my face and he says I need to get my eyes checked and is furious and it’s escalating. I ask him if he was that close, then why didn’t he whistle, yell or have his brother call me but by now, he’s getting his puppy and everything he has in my car out, talking shit to me the entire time, and not changing his story that now makes zero sense. He said he had all of this expensive jewelry in his hands, thousands of dollars worth, but kept dropping it and when he realized that I was gone, he just tried to carry as much as possible back to his car but dropped most of it and now I’ve ruined his money-making scheme of selling it. I know now that he’s full of shit so I take off and go look at the streets to see if there are any expensive baubles lying around and not a shimmer or glitter in sight. I go back to where he is and he starts telling me to get out of there and never come back. I ask him what all of this hostility is for and it isn’t that serious and to calm down. He keeps yelling at me and getting more furious and I’m blown away at the mountain he’s making out of a molehill. He’s now saying he never wants to see me again and all of this other nonsense and I tell him that had he just communicated like an adult and told me he was gonna take off to go do such and such, all of this could’ve been avoided and it’s all bullshit anyway. And then I tell him he’s lying and to knock it off cuz it’s stupid. By now he’s in his car with the door shut and I’m trying to reason with him by saying there’s no need for his dramatics at 5am and to chill out. I forget now what he said but it got to me and also knowing a replacement has been around caused me to lose my shit and I saw his flashlight on the ground near his car and I picked it up and threw it at his door. Picked it up, threw it again, probably 3 more times. The last time hit his window but it didn’t break surprisingly. He opens his door and slams it into me, knocking me off balance and I shove it back into him. He then came at me and punched me in the head which really knocked me off kilter and down I went in the street, gashing my hand and knees and scraping them something fierce. I’m stunned as I don’t usually get into physical altercations with anyone, much less this guy as he’s not my bf or husband but my FWB hook up. He yells at me how immature and lame I am for a 50 year old and after all the years of this shit with many, many others, I tell him that I was pressing charges, something I never do cuz I’m not a cop caller. Well, call I did and I pressed charges. He took off when he saw me on the phone so now, they’ll file the charges and put a warrant out for his arrest. I didn’t want to go this route and this guy is dangerous because of his special ops training so he might do me some real harm over this. Idk. We had been getting along just fine up til he took off without saying anything and had been together for a couple of days. I feel bad about the whole thing but I’m sick of his and his new slut’s bullshit. We were friends first and I’ve told him that we’ll always be friends, even if we have to stop hooking up. And now this. I had his stuff in my trunk so I went down there later the same day to drop it off and he refused to even come near his car and took off with his puppy somewhere. He kinda seemed to be fearful but this guy is fearless so I doubt it was that. I’m bummed about it and really don’t want to go to court and get him jail time and all of that so Idk what to do at this point but a mutual friend said she’d seen him yesterday and he told her I’d wronged him but Idk what part he was referring to since the friend didn’t make mention of me pressing charges. When he’s not being an asshole narc, he’s an interesting guy and we share a lot of laughs just like real friends do so that’s the part that’s bothering me. The fact that we were good friends above all else. This sucks and I miss talking to him already. HIs new slutty supply works with a guy I’ve known for years and who used to be a hook up some 20+ years ago. I’m thinking of letting him know that I was assaulted by her new “man” and pressed charges, especially because she got out of a toxic narc relationship last summer and if her friends catch wind of this new guy being of like materials, they’re gonna give her shit about it. She and I know dozens and dozens of the same people and share 71 mutual fb friends and as much as she upset me with a note she left for me to read 2 weeks ago I can’t without good conscience, not get word to her of what she’s dealing with, especially the fact that he got physical with me. Otherwise, I’d say let her hang cuz she’s just as toxic as he is, even though she claims to be an Empath. She had an issue with me from the get go and I find it odd that she’s not his gf but dared me (to do what, Idk) in the note and said she’d already won and addressed it “to his stalker”. Little does she know that the mutual friend who spoke to him when he said I’d wronged him, asked him who she was when she came up to his car and he and my friend were sitting inside. The new supply got prickly and went back to her car and that’s when my friend asked him who she was. Anybody want to guess his answer? Wait for it…..he said “his stalker”. Bwahahaha! :Little does she know, she’s not pedastal bound like she thinks she is with her cutesy little hearts drawn on his side window and windshield. If she can’t tell he’s a narc just by interacting with him (he’s super obvious) then she’s just that dumb and needs some education and to grow up a lot. The saga continues……

  4. A Victor says:

    My ex’s sister told me that he had been different, had lied among other things, from the time he was old enough to speak. I learned this of course after 20 of time spent with him, catching him in various lies along the way. Had she told me that right up front, I may have spent less time in the relationship with him. But, I suppose that was his facade at work, if I am understanding that correctly now. My first husband was a chronic liar also, his second wife said this to me long after I was away from him.

  5. Sleeping Tiger says:

    Have you written anything about never learning from mistakes? It seems this would be a ‘lower’ trait but I’ve read things that say that never learning from mistakes is a psychopathic trait. I’d be curious what you’d have to say about this if anything.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Nearly all Lesser Narcissists and most Mid-Range Narcissists do no learn from mistakes because there is no need to, the narcissism rejects the notion of having made a mistake as part of the assertion of control.
      Greater do not make mistakes.

      1. Sleeping Tiger says:

        Thank you. This clears things up quite well.

  6. December Infinity says:

    He told so many lies and when I would mention something that sound off during his babbling match he would go off like a tornado. I think he was trying build himself a brick house with all the lies!

  7. dollysupreme says:

    Sharing his lies?……Be quicker and easier to try share the few lines of truth he occasionally told….
    I read a quote from somebody saying he’d still lie even if the truth made a better story……Never a truer word spoken that…..

  8. Asp Emp says:

    I’m reading the article and it was seemingly ‘normal’ until I see the words, “rubber chicken”, it stopped me in my tracks for a moment or two – this really made me laugh! Who on earth has a rubber chicken to hand?

    “embarking on a thirty minute word salad monologue then that is all that matters” – I would say that this is probably the nearest ‘description’ to what happened after I had the plutonic supanova moment. But the ‘word salad’ was not aimed at me, I would describe his ‘back-tracking’ done to someone else to “explain” (plausible deniability) why it resulted in the way it did. To this day, he still has not talked with me about it, only to others.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Have you not watched Chappie?

      1. Asp Emp says:

        No, I haven’t actually. I have heard of it. Would you elaborate, if you have time?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It’s a film. See this clip

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Ah, thank you HG. Your’e a star for sending that link. Chappie looks sweet.

            LOL, I’m just wondering, if someone threw a rubber chicken at a Lesser or MRN, would it stop them in their tracks and have a dumbfounded moment? I can certainly state for the record, I don’t have one in my house.

            Thank you for the lugh though, I needed that 🙂

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The Lesser would try and eat it. The MRN would call the police and have you arrested for fowl play.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            LOLOL. And it would taste like a real chicken to a Lesser! I would say to the police, he’s quackers.

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ha ha ha !
            That tickled me.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Every self respecting Empath keeps a rubber chicken in her handbag. Do you not Asp?


          1. Asp Emp says:

            LOL. OMG, no, do I need to get one now? Would it need batteries? 😉

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hang on, I’ll just check!

          3. Asp Emp says:

            LOL. Well? I’m waiting with baited breath LOL

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Only on the extra large ‘Deluxe’ version!

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Oh, I’m so naive – didn’t realise it came in various sizes LOL

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


          7. Violetta says:

            Did a production of Comedy of Errors in which Nell, the sex-crazed kitchen maid (played, of course, by a big burly guy with a beard in a dress) was supposed to chase the wrong twin around the stage demanding marital rights. He changed his props around every night, but the things he waved at Dromio included a ping-pong paddle, instant whipped cream, handcuffs, a hot water bottle, and the inevitable rubber chicken.

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Reminds me of Bangkok.

            “You want ping pong?”

            Not one of the sights I had on my list.

            Do you act Violetta?

          9. Violetta says:

            TS 6157:

            Did church basement theatre for years, with day jobs to pay the bills. Haven’t recently, because F.U. was giving me all night classes (which when auditions and rehearsals usually are), when they were giving me sections at all.

            I was going to get back into it now that F.U. and I had parted ways, but then life happened. My in NYC had a new show accepted by a well-known indie venue, and I was going to travel to the east coast to audition in March, sign with some temp.agencies as I did when I first moved there, and try to remember who I was before grad school sucked the life out of me. Then lockdown happened, and theatre, like so many other things in NYC, turned comatose (if not moribund) for the foreseeable future.

            When lockdown was followed by the protests, my next plan of going back to working in a local government office, as I did when finishing my dissertation (and maybe doing some community theatre at night), hit a roadblock: there are very few government postings right now, and academia is even worse–you’d have to move halfway across the country to get a part-time adjunct position with no benefits or stability, and wages that probably wouldn’t even cover the move. There are online adjunct positions with the same drawbacks as my last one: a canned curriculum that gets changed arbitrarily, so no matter how many times you’ve taught a class, you can’t keep up–it’s like teaching it for the first time.

            Am looking at other careers, but it’s a pretty depressing job market right now.

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:


            What a completely frustrating time of it you have had! Covid and lockdown really did mess with your plans. I’ve obviously been watching events unfold in NYC and the city must be unrecognisable for those who know it well. It must feel very strange indeed. Covid is getting me down too. I did ok with it through lockdown and I’m fortunate that I live in the country so my area was one of the least affected but now, with different rules in place, I really don’t like the new normal.

            I admire you following your dream in terms of making theatre a priority in your life. When you are creative in that way I think it becomes a need to do not a nice to do and your plan was ballsy. I’m gutted for you that you were scuppered by lockdown after making a series of bold decisions. Theatre has been badly hit by all of this. Large London theatres will no doubt bounce back as will many in NYC but the smaller venues may not and it is those theatres that are most accessible to people. It’s a real shame and a real loss.

            Ultimately, cities will recover and after the closures, various venues will reopen again, I fear we are all still a long way from things getting back to the way they were before though. I hope this means that your plans are just on ice for a while. Try not to get frustrated. Widen your job search perhaps to include roles that will tide you over for a while but make sure you don’t get caught in the humdrum forever. Go back to your plans at the first opportunity. It would be a real shame for you to lose sight of them.

            It’s important to have a plan. A Heyoka once said to me.

            “Come with a plan or pee on your boots.”

            Wise words.


      2. fox says:

        omg I loved Chappie

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      The shocking thing about Mid Range is this genuine inability to recognise the fact they have lied. The irony, is that my interaction was online, so sometimes all you had to do was to scroll up to see what had been said!

      I occasionally would screenshot certain parts of the conversation as it started to turn weird or nonsensical. Even faced with a screenshot, he would do exactly as HG says and move from denial into any other manipulation. Usually word salad, swiftly followed by circular argument.
      The strangest one was the second time we met. This didn’t follow the same pattern as later scenarios.

      When we were due to meet, he claimed that I hadn’t answered his call when I arrived in the hotel. That he had waited and he was now driving back home. (No missed calls on my phone). I knew he was lying by his tone, so I challenged with, “Oh you are? So where are you now?” He claimed to be at a realistic point given alleged departure time. I then asked him to send me a picture of the clock in his car. (Master move on my part I thought). The picture arrived but the time was out by 20 minutes. Plus the dashboard was lit whilst it was still light outside. (Stock photo)

      I responded with, “Nice try, no cigar. Bye.”
      A second later, he text back. “Grab your coat, it’s cold out, I’m in the bar opposite the hotel.”

      I thought after, “Who does that?!” The date had gone so well though I put it down to him being nervous. He always had seemed ‘quirky’. Now I see it for what it was, an attempt to assert control and draw fuel from my relief that he was in fact still there.

      That lie was obvious. Some were just pure madness ( from my perspective). We had a circular argument about the fact I had bought an epilator. (Classic !) He told me I was lying and it was in fact a vibrator. I photographed the epilator alongside its box on my bed so he knew it wasn’t a stock photo. I seemed unable to convince him at all. He just kept calling me “liar”. That incensed me. Round and round we went. Looking at it now, why was I even trying to prove an epilator wasn’t a vibrator?! He got his fuel though. Git. Ha ha.

      I can kind of laugh about it now. That’s a good thing I think. I’m moving forward.

      1. karmicoverload says:

        Yes, you have to laugh at the incredulous situations they put us in.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          You really do, tough to laugh at some things, but bit by bit, looking back, I’m starting to see the funny side of some conversations.

      2. Asp Emp says:

        It’s not easy moving forward.

        LOLOL. It was a vibrator, wasn’t it Truthseeker? He said it was. LOL. No, I believe you.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          He was probably hoping for a second ‘comparison’ photograph.

          And a third
          And a fourth

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Photograph the vibrator, sorry, epilator with a rubber chicken and a battery. That should confuse him! LOL.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            I’ll get a bollocking for the suggestion – does not meet the requirements of NC…..

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Don’t you bloody well start as well!!


          4. Asp Emp says:

            LOLOLOL. Some of the conversations on this site have me laughing – it’s good though x

      3. NarcAngel says:

        It’s good you can laugh about it now.

        One word of advice:
        If you find yourself in the position again of proving your epilator is not a vibrator, (unlikely, but then again, there was a first time….), you might not want to photograph it on your bed.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Never thought of that !

          1. Violetta says:

            I suppose you could photograph it in the bathroom, along with other grooming tools, but if you’re dealing with narcs, they can always put a questionable interpretation even on that.

            The thing to remember with narcs is you don’t actually have to provide evidence of anything at all. They want us to THINK we do.

            Apparently, when someone would say something sufficiently irritating to HL Mencken, whether it was a patently uninformed opinion on politics or a personal.attack on himself, instead of defending his ideas or his reputation, Mencken would say, “You are very probably right,” excuse himself, and go talk to someone less annoying.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            That’s a very good point. I never had to prove anything to anyone before. I have never been called a liar before either.

      4. Beguiled says:

        My Narc keeps a stockpile of (old) photos to send to throw off his whereabouts. His location services on his phone is always off so you cant see where the photo was taken.

        He constantly pulled the trick of saying he showed up somewhere to look for me but now has just left…. If I say I am at his place, where are you, he will say he just showed up at my place. Obviously, he was somewhere else altogether.

        He would say that he drove by my house and “you’re not there” . I will be home in bed. He is banking on the fact that I would be out and he is acting like he wanted to see me… he was with someone else.

        There are so many varied examples, it gives me a headache to think of them all. On nights when he ghosted me or sent me on a wild goose chase, I would go on a texting rage for literally hours.

        What fun he must have had reading them all night while romancing another.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Your comment shocks me and by now it really shouldn’t. To actually keep a collection of photos like that so you can ‘prove’ your whereabouts straight away is something I hadn’t considered. Photos feel like proof don’t they?

          I am very naive in that I still have to say ‘Why would they bother?” If you aren’t interested in someone, you just say, you don’t string them along. The lengths narcissists go to just for kicks (fuel) still just don’t fully compute with me. I understand it, I just still can’t relate to it.

          My narc played it a different way. The suspicion was never that he was with someone else. He never attempted to suggest or sow that seed in my mind. I think he knew that if I so much as suspected that I would just go. That’s the line that can’t be crossed with me and he knew it.

          What my narc did was claim he was alone. So Christmas Day or his birthday for example, we would be in contact throughout the day, but he would be alone. That’s one thing I can’t stand. The idea of people being left alone, particularly on special days. It bothers me like nothing else. I wouldn’t leave my dog alone on Christmas Day.

          He played on me in that way more. He would take a week off work but not go away anywhere, he worked hard and I hated that he was wasting his time off. It felt insulting that he would rather be alone than be with me. We now live about 90 minutes from each other. We were in different countries at the start. He never confirmed what I was to him. Friends, more than friends, It was never clear. I have my pride and would only push clarification so far. On top of that I didn’t want to lose him so weeks turned to months turned to years. Always the same though, hours and hours online with me. Instant response to my messages, photos showing me where he was. Work, home, out with friends, even a photo taken in hospital.

          They find your weak spot and they play on it. What worked on me wouldn’t have worked on you but the interesting thing is that they find that specific weakness and capitalise on it. Over and over again.

          1. Beguiled says:

            Truthseeker, you were in a long distance relationship with him for years? Are you sure he didn’t see anyone else? My narc was brilliant at juggling several women who all thought they were in exclusive relationships, as well as “randoms” that he would sleep with, in between.

            He is a contractor/handyman, which gave him the freedom to say he was literally anywhere that suited his needs. One time I had a shower leak, he asked me to take a photo so he could see the damage. He used that photo to send to his other girlfriend to get out of a lunch date, claiming emergency plumbing job.

            The patholigcal lying was a constant. When I started to put it all together, my truthseeking qualities went on overload and I became obsessed with unraveling all the lies. I went to extremes and behaved in the most embarrassing ways. Eventually, one of his girlfriends, who had been with him much longer, contacted me on FB.

            Long story short, we spent hours and hours, days and days, comparting notes and the revelation was sickening. She was on a mission to ruin him, managed to get a hold of many of the contacts in his phone and outed him to a couple dozen women.

            My narc claimed she destroyed his business, that she contacted clients, not women he was seeing. ALL LIES, except for the fact that he also met women through his jobs.

            Odd thing about my narc is that he never really seemed to discard, only collected more and more women in his arsenal. He is a true Somatic. Sex driven.

            Now that I am escaping, he uses what your narc uses, the Pity Play. My weakness is similar to yours. He says he is lonely. Another favorite is that he is going to off himself. Yesterday, he emailed me a photo of an oven and said he was going to put his head in it. There is some truth to it, as his life is now falling apart, financially, and doesnt have the money to wine and dine his ladies. The word lonely seems to break my heart.

            Where are you now? With him? Escaping? Escaped?.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            It’s a strange tale. We ran into each other online. We were in two separate countries when we began chatting. I later moved home (not because of him). We met shortly after. Since moving back he lives two hours away. From start to finish the communication lasted four years with an apparent disengagement and a few short silent treatments in between. The rate of communication was extremely high. Hours and hours per night until 2 am then morning messages and pics in work, holidays, out with friends, all times and all places. The relationship was never clarified. He refused to give it a name, friends, acquaintances or more than friends. He future faked with suggesting I looked at holidays. He claimed he had been seriously ill in hospital during the disengagement. He took a photo from a hotel roof in the rain shortly after being released from hospital. When asked what he could see and what he was doing, he replied, “I can see the sea, the sky, the ground. Have you ever thought of ending it all?” He claimed to be in and out of hospital then he claimed to be recovering with the implication that he didn’t want me to see him like that.

            Honestly, now that I understand the narcissistic manipulations, he displayed almost all, ( apart from the physical obviously) but amongst it, he was kind, helpful, sweet and sadly, he really understood what made me tick. I have never had a ‘relationship’ like it before. I have never fought so hard to progress something. I have never been as heartbroken. On paper, you could argue it wasn’t even a relationship. In reality it was the amount of time spent in constant contact and the instant responses to every message, the level of confiding on my part, the support, shared humour and apparent understanding / acceptance shown that held me in place. The “You deserve better.” was played from every conceivable angle and the implication was that he wanted more but felt I was unattainable. HG mentions this kind of warning approach in a book I only just read. It implies “I’m bad for you.” With some empaths, it just makes them fight harder. It certainly did with me. His apparent loneliness through putting me and others first was the cherry on the cake. He played the tortured hero extremely well and my need to rescue never faltered.

            On the few occasions we met, I never slept with him. I wanted to be in a relationship first, to know where I stood. There was no pressure for me to do so. He was utterly respectful.

            There must have been someone else but given the rate and times of communication I have struggled to see how this was the case. My conclusion is that he was physically with someone during the disengagement and silences but the vast majority of the time, he was fuelled by a family member and other online sources just like me.

            I really feel for you in the situation you described. Uncovering lies like that and the photos used to support those lies is tough to uncover and tougher to rectify. The thing is, that when you are honest yourself, you just don’t expect that behaviour and to that level of detail. It is an entirely different perspective to ours and though we come to recognise that it is still difficult to apply it to our personal situations.

            My opinion is that sometimes they do feel lonely but really it is just the fact they or low on fuel and don’t recognise it. The threatening or even implication of suicide is unforgivable and it is a last ditched attempt to either heal a wound from Perceived criticism, or it is simply another attempt to assert control and gather fuel. People who commit suicide rarely say they are about to do it. They just do it. Given what he is and what he’s done, he is not your responsibility. I think about mine pulling the same stunt when I feel a wobble. Unforgivable, the greatest exploitation of our good nature there is.

            I have been No Contact since June. He has attempted a hoover twice. All avenues are locked down now. It sounds utterly bizarre, stupid, a nothing relationship. It wasn’t to me. Hard to explain.

          3. Beguiled says:


            I’m fascinated by your story. Didn’t you ever feel like spying on him? Watching him from afar? My embarrassing act was that I went so far as to put a tracker on his car.

            For all those years, were you only with him? The level of manipulation must have been extreme to keep you in that unsure state for so long. Not to mention zero sex…

            I also wonder if he was ever in the hospital. My narc would feign illness. bleeding ulcer, concussion, a variety of stomach issues… used as excuses for being late, short notice cancellations or not showing up at all…common narc behavior, I discovered.

          4. WokeAF says:

            Beguiled – tell him to shave his head and season himself first, esp his face.

            Head meat is delicious

          5. Beguiled says:

            Woke AF, LMAO Tastes like chicken!

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            To begin with we were on opposite sides of the world from each other. I wasn’t looking for a relationship of any kind. I wasn’t on a dating site. It was sheer chance our paths crossed. We met in a non dating related chat room. This quickly moved to a private chat app. We were in different time zones to begin with. It was only upon my return home around 18 months later after an extended period of online communication that there was the option to move things forward. At this point we met up.

            The main reason he gave a short time after meeting me was that his “little life” was not enough for me. This presumably was based solely on my car and the fact I had made an effort to look good when we met. Nails done, hair done, dressed nicely etc. I told him I wasn’t interested in what he earned. I’m not the least bit materialistic like that. I look after myself, that’s it. This was the upshot of the reason given for not taking things forward. Essentially he couldn’t provide the life he thought I wanted. “I couldn’t see why someone with pedigree would want a mongrel.” I hated that comment. I did everything I could to dismantle that viewpoint.

            I didn’t spy. I don’t do spy to be honest. If I was to suspect someone was seeing someone else, there would be a valid reason for me feeling that way. So I wouldn’t spy, I’d just go. Technically he was more than within his rights to see other people. He had avoided clarifying what we actually were. I didn’t see anyone else, I wanted to be with him so it was game over for me as far as looking for anyone else was concerned. That’s me though. I couldn’t impose that on him.

            I did say that if he was seeing someone at any point that he needed to tell me. That I would not be in communication with him if he was with someone else. I wasn’t a big enough person to honestly advise him on a girlfriend and I didn’t want him not to be able to talk to me about things or worse, to lie about it. In that situation I would instantly have withdrawn. He knew that, it was made crystal clear. He never once implied that he was even thinking of anyone else. The timings of communication make it nigh on impossible for anyone to have been there with him. In fact, if he was out at the weekends he chatted with me throughout. He then chatted on his way home, when he got home, into the early hours, then again the following morning. No one was physically with him, I’m certain. Online remains a possibility. Silent treatments and disengagement very likely he was seeing someone, if only briefly.

            It does sound like a long time to hold on to something or someone. I’m very loyal and was very sure about how I felt. I couldn’t consider anyone else until that relationship was resolved. When you are in it, time works differently in that you move day to day or weekend to weekend. You don’t really think about how long you have been in the same situation. Time passes, I fell asleep with him. I woke up with him. He was a constant without actually being a constant.

          7. Beguiled says:

            Truthseeker, just seeing this today…I have to wonder what was going on in his head that he wouldn’t fully “embed” you into his life with the the level of constant communication he already had with you. Outside of the silent treatment and disengagement, was there devaluation?

            The one thing I have learned from my 2 narc experiences and reading everyone else’s, is that they come in every form, despite being the same in so many ways. Did you do the narc test?

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You’re right, we see elements of the same behaviours in each others’ stories. I think many of us also react similarly to these behaviours just to different degrees and for different durations. I think I was too much effort. The world is a small place to me. I’ve travelled, lived and worked in various countries. Two hours drive to date is nothing to me. He was different, he moved a lot in childhood. Dad was in the army. As an adult he has remained roughly in the same area. I think he wants a local fuel source. Low effort, easier to manipulate. I pulled him up too often, questioned him, challenged, objected. I’m not easy to deal with in some ways. I don’t lay down. I was definitely a fuel tanker, but I wasn’t easy to manipulate either if that makes sense? I fit into the ‘too difficult box’ for him.
            I did do the Narc detector yes. MMR. I was the stronger personality, though I was damaged in the process. I am however, almost fixed. Almost back to full power, thanks to being here.
            In terms of devaluation, not exactly. I wouldn’t say I was devalued no. I would say I can point to a plethora of manipulations used to draw fuel. Some successful, others less so. He was limited, he knew to triangulate with anyone else would cause me to go, he knew also that I had a full life. I was well protected if you like. I think he knew to push but that he couldn’t push too far. I’d just go. There was a ceiling of how much he could get from me and it wasn’t going to move easily. What he did do very successfully was take my time, take my trust, take my hopes, chipped away at me. He didn’t devalue though. He was my friend to the last word.
            Ultimately, he is alone. If not, it won’t be long before he is again. He will always search and never find. I always felt that underneath it all, though he had control on the face of it, I was the stronger of the two of us. I was right. I am.

  9. Leela says:

    “My” mid range narcs favorites were blame shifting, gas lighting and pity play. The pity play was so heavy that it was ridiculous!

    N: “How can you make such a drama about nothing?”
    Me: “This was no drama! I just wanted to tell you that …..”
    N: “You know how much that hurt me? I couldn´t sleep last night because of you”
    Me: “Oh come on! Do not exaggerate”
    N: “You hurt me very badly! You don´t know how much you hurt me. You cannot do/say that! That´s heartbreaking”
    Me: (rolling eyes) “Okay okay I won´t do it again”
    N: “Do you know how much pain you caused?”
    Me: “No! I only wanted to tell you that …”
    N: “Oh my goodness, you almost broke my heart. I´m sensitive, you know? I couldn´t sleep last night, and I even had a nightmare! That was so painful to me. Do you know what you did to me?”
    Me: …….
    N: “Listen! You cannot act like this! I´m a very sensitive and vulnerable person”
    Me: ….?
    N: “Do you realize know what you did to me?”
    Me: ..urm…..yeeees?
    N: “Do you realize now admit now that you were acting irrationally?”
    Me ….?
    N: “You´re acting in a totally irrational way! Do you realize that now?”
    N: “So! Listen now” Next time you intend to make such a drama, we agree that you first think about it. Think about what you say, cause you´re causing so much pain”

    Oooh my goodness! And this went on and on and on until I was SO FED UP that I said “sorry”, just to make him SHUT THE F …. UP!!!!!!

    1. lisk says:

      Sounds very familiar though there would be a heavy helping of anger mixed in with the pity.

  10. karmicoverload says:

    I asked for complete honesty at the start of the relationship. I specifically told him he was free to start a relationship with someone else (As I am married, I was not trying to prevent him finding happiness with a more “permanent” partner), but I would need to know straight away as I would need this clarity and also to protect myself against STDS and being “The other woman.” Basically, I didn’t want him hiding a relationship and getting a message from a heartbroken woman asking why I was sleeping with her boyfriend. That’s not my bag. Three months in, something felt off. There had been considerable activity on his usually redundant FB page between him and his ex-girlfriend, who he had mentioned several times. There was a lot of liking and commenting going on. She lived in Berlin. He went there regularly to work. He went, and was strangely quiet. Came back, everything was fine. Three months on again, he is due to fly out to New York, but he chooses to spend the weekend in Berlin before flying to New York from there, because “flights are cheaper.” I was in hospital having minor surgery the day he flew to New York. Scrolling Facebook, I look on her very public FB page. She has posted that her “mistress” has gone to New York and she is lonely. He replies “You’re my mistress. You come to New York with me.” I screen shot this and sent him it. He replied along the outraged lines of “How dare you? You’re married. What happened in Berlin is just what happened.” No mention of the fact that I had asked for honesty right from the word go. I suspect she was never actually an “ex” girlfriend, their relationship had never officially ended and I was ALREADY the other woman. This was one of several manipulations regarding other women.
    There was also another Berlin “friend” who came to stay overnight at his house….A really “close” friend who had never once been to visit him in the two years I have known him, except this one time which occurred just after I had expressed that my one fantasy was to spend the whole night with him. There is also the niggling suspicion about the married mother of his son’s best friend. I suspect she is the reason for my last devaluation. His projection of “I want a woman who CAN have a relationship, not one who can’t or won’t” was going to be his coup-de-grace when he successfully managed to split her up from her husband and rub my face in it. Unfortunately for him, I ended it before he got to bring this to completion. I still think they are meeting up for naughty DLS liaisons. Time will tell if she is foolish enough to fall for his love bombing. This is all E.T and speculation of course. Every day I am caring a little bit less. Now it feels more like a scientific experiment to see if I am correct.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      “I asked for complete honesty at the start of the relationship” – me too. He promised me. I believed him. That’s why I will find it very hard to trust anyone in the future – question everything, double check everything.

      1. karmicoverload says:

        And that’s their first push on your boundaries 😔

        1. Asp Emp says:

          FFS. I wish I knew KTN’s existence before I met this guy…..

          1. Violetta says:

            I wish there had been a KTN when I was a kid, let alone a teen or adult, but oh well.

            At some point I might want to get the new parental narc material, though I have other priorities in KTN products. My parents are gone, but it might settle things to know how I was being worked on–after I get over the frustration of wishing I’d known not to do this or that. When I read or listen to the material about romantic entanglements, I’m sometimes struck by the fact I instinctively did some of the right things to free myself, though I didn’t know to avoid being ensnared in the first place.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Interesting you say ‘instinctively’, I said things myself to N without knowing why I said it – intuition I suppose. If only, my mother had handed me over to my aunt after I was born – I would have been mother-narc-free (my aunt offered to take me in). I would have been brought up with a nice family.

            We are all learning now. The rest of the world will catch up at some point. For now, the Ns will remain free to roam & ensnare…..

          3. karmicoverload says:

            Me too 😔

          4. Bibi says:

            It would have been helpful to KTN. I remember having one of those ‘phone boyfriends’ in high school, where I made some remark that hurt his feelings/upset him.

            Him: I can’t believe you said that (victim playing)
            Me: I’m sorry but I didn’t ,mean it like that.
            Him: More victim playing, piling on guilt
            Me: I am sorry I said what I said, but I only said it once
            Him: Once was enough

            Etc. No resolution in sight. He was upset b/c He had an ex gf that he ignored and I said that I hoped he wouldn’t ever ignore me like that.

            I dismissed it as a teenage thing, but the dude was weird. I think people who get overly offended by some remark that wasn’t intended that way is a red flag.

            Another time I sent an email to someone in confidence and then just added, ‘Just b/t us, BTW so please don’t share.’

            She went on to say, ‘I can’t believe you would think I would do such a thing.’

            Oh for cripes! It’s not all about you. I didn’t mean that I thought you would. I would never think to react that way.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            It’s always one-sided! There is one girl from school that I hadn’t spoken with for 20 years cos she was really mean to me and then had the nerve to slag me off to my other friends. They haven’t spoken with her either, since then. She wanted a friend to pass on a letter to me – I said NO. Apparently, an empath can give eternal silence to an abuser. She was one.

      2. blackcoffee30 says:

        Trust No Bitch

        Never Again

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Too right!

      3. WokeAF says:

        ASP , I recently realized I CANNOT , as in, I am unable, to trust without a long period of seeing the actions & words line up. Even then, in the back of my mind I’m always ready for evidence that my trust is unwarranted

        HG, there is an article somewhere here on what the narc takes from us- trust being one thing- what is it titled?
        Maybe The Narcivist K can help me out here ?

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Is A Question of Trust the one you’re thinking of?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I believe that’s the one, NA.

          2. WokeAF says:

            No, it’s like , 10 things the narcissist takes , or something. About how we are affected afterwards.

            I think that’s the biggest thing that changed in me- the inability to trust. Not even in a painful way- almost in a numbing way, like how good opiates numb anxiety. It’s almost like I’ve been relieved of my naivety. Thanks to HG actually bc without knowing the narc worldview, I’d still be in emotional uproar trying to figure these guys out.

          3. K says:

            Hahahahaha…they better watch out! I am on a roll! School is a hybrid model; part remote, part in class.

            Jump right in, anyone can be a Narcivist and you found Valentine Venom, which I had forgotten about.

            Kafka-esque pulls this one right up and it was good to reread it.

        2. K says:

          I think this may be the one you are looking for.

          1. WokeAF says:

            YASSSS 👏🏻 Thank you!

          2. Kim e says:

            WokeAF and K
            Thanks for the reminders. Had some “aha” moments reading this again

          3. NarcAngel says:

            I was not trying to encroach on your turf haha. I just thought you might be out taking down board and political members and preparing for the school year. And I got it wrong anyway!

            Glad you referred to this article as somehow it had escaped me until now. Thank you.

        3. K says:

          My pleasure WokeAF!

        4. K says:

          My pleasure Kim e,
          It’s good to reread the articles so we don’t get rusty; I almost forgot about that one.

      4. lisk says:

        Maybe the need to “ask for honesty” should be considered a red flag—that you’re an empath about to make a bad choice.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          I’d come out of a bad relationship a few years before I met N. I just didn’t want to commit myself and then later find that I’m betrayed / cheated on etc. Alas, N did it anyway. I didn’t know the in depth details about narcissism, never mind hearing about empaths – only less than 2 months ago – I learned…… and learned….. still learning

    2. blackcoffee30 says:

      I used to care, but not any longer. The other women can have (and share) him. Good luck to them.

      1. karmicoverload says:

        I am still stuck between thinking the same vs wanting to protect them vs being angry….this woman, I believe, had some inkling of our relationship. Hopefully soon I can be like you BC.

    3. Bibi says:

      With the Mid-Ranger, I had to define what trust, honesty and friendship were. When you’re having to give definitions to someone, this is a problem.

      When I later asked about his fake name he said the whole, ‘It is my middle name and my mother’s maiden name so it is technically still my name.’

      After a couple of years I gathered the gumption to confront him–‘You are not being honest w me. You play games.’

      He then played the victim. ‘I can’t believe you could say that. How can you say that after all we shared? You can’t fake that.’

      Haha. Apparently you can.

      The difference I have come to recognize is that if I were approached with such an accusation–‘You are playing games.’ I would immediately ask for further explanation.

      What do you mean? Explain. Give examples.

      I have not seen the narcissists do this. Rather, they immediately jump to victim-mode. ‘I can’t believe you would do that, say that, after all I have done, after all we shared, etc.’

      Also, if you’re getting someone tell you over and over how they can’t trust you, despite your efforts to prove such trust (you shouldn’t have to jump through hoops to do it, as trust comes naturally) you’re prob dealing with a narcissist.

      The Mid-Ranger lied endlessly and then projected the lack of trust onto me. ‘I can’t trust you,’ he would tell me, as a means of hiding information.

      1. karmicoverload says:

        Yes Bibi, after everything I had asked for regarding honesty and clarity, and answering every question he ever fired at me with nothing but, he STILL had the gaul to accuse me of “fucking someone else.” They are beyond belief!

        1. Bibi says:


          We should not have to ask for honesty and clarity. In none of my other relationships have I had to define honesty and trust, much less what friendship is.

          1. WokeAF says:

            “ In none of my other relationships have I had to define honesty and trust, much less what friendship is.”

            Exactly. In none of my other relationships do I find evidence I’ve been lied to, do I feel drained or poisoned after interacting, do I feel confused or put down, feel such a rush of excitement or left wanting , waiting, for more.

          2. cadavera says:

            Karmi and WokeAF, been thinking the exact same thing.

    4. Beguiled says:

      As HG says, paraphrased, lying is like breathing for a narc. There is no asking for complete honesty.

      Every word out of my narc is a lie. I laugh when I think about our first text conversation (dating site).

      ME: Are you looking for non-monogomy (his profile said he was “open to it”)?

      NARC: No, who is?

      ME: You’d be surprised

      NARC: I created my profile a long time ago

      ME: Good, because I dont share well.

      HAHA, so naive I was…

    5. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Karmicoverload, I’ve been there. You will stop caring if you keep NC, I promise. I also asked my narc to be honest and tell me if he had other affairs apart from me, and he lied and even seemed to get offended by the question. I told him if I found out he lied to me he wouldn’t see me ever again. He hasn’t in 2 years and he won’t. Stay here and you will eventually get freedom from that idiot.

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