Whore

WHORE

 

Tell me, what is it like to be such a whore? How does it feel? Are you proud of yourself? Are you pleased with what you have become? Are your parents proud of what their son or daughter has done with their life, to become this thing that prostitutes itself so regularly and with no sense of shame? If only they knew eh? If only they knew the lengths, you go to in order to get what you want. It must be a shallow existence don’t you think? Knowing that nobody truly likes you, that all of the love, affection, friendship, kindness and gratitude has to be bought and paid for. What an empty life that must be? I know you are very good at it.

I will give you that. You are a professional when it comes to performing this role. I must admit that I sometimes watch with a strange kind of, well, I suppose it is respect isn’t it? Yes, respect for the way that you work your role. You know what to say don’t you? Those words come easy to you but they should because you have used them often enough on other people. You are a serial offender if the truth be told and that is why the epitaph of whore is so fitting. You know just what to say to get what you want. You know when to say it, what to say and how to say it, just like a hooker parading her wares in a window in Amsterdam.

You have worked out your best side, your most beguiling stance and you have them come flocking, every time. I am impressed by it; I have to say. You make it seem so real. You fooled me, there was no doubt about it. You have used your experience and you are experienced, to heighten the sensation so it is better than anything else. It is probably better than the real thing. I know you are just going through the motions but I am wise to you, I would be a fool if I was not, but there are countless of them out there who will fall for it time and time again.

You won’t be going out of business, not at all. You will have a steady stream of those willing to have sugar poured in their ear, hear those honey-coated words tumble from those oh so inviting lips. And the promises, oh the promises. So difficult to resist, so inviting, so exciting. They clamour for your attention in the end. I find it odd in a way because you are selling yourself but you don’t actually have to sell yourself do you? They come to you. They flock in their droves, lured by your siren call and you always deliver. You always give them exactly what they want. You did that with me. You knew what I wanted and you provided it for me, in spades. It was sensational and you got me hooked so I didn’t want it from anyone else. That is pretty powerful.

I wish I knew how it felt though. How does it feel to live like this? How does it feel knowing that everything is a show, a performance and it isn’t real? What is it like being so shallow? Do you even care? Perhaps you don’t, after all you are getting what you want aren’t you? Well we both are actually so we should both be delighted with it, but why is it that I am not? Why is it that I feel used? I thought I was the one who was in control, I thought I was the one who was calling the shots and yet I always seem to surrender that control to you. I thought I was the one who got to play the tune and you danced to it but then it doesn’t always work that way does it? I wish I could work out why that was. You make me feel like you at times, or at least you make me feel how I imagine you feel, cheap, used, dirty, a whore.

I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised. This is all you know isn’t it? This is how you have had to adapt, how you have to ensure you survive by getting people to do what you want, to make them like you, to make them adore you and love you. I wonder how long you will carry on like this? Is this the way it is always going to be? Is this you are consigned to do for the rest of your life, seeking a way through the vagaries of your existence by always doing what the other person wants. You need to please don’t you? That’s how you survive.

You exist only through the permission and desires of the others. You may think you wield the power, you may think that pleasure, absolute please, joy, ecstasy and delight are within your gift but you are beholden to provide those things because if you do not then you are nothing. You are nothing. Nothing without me. Nothing at all. I made you who you are, you need me although you will tell me that I need you. Perhaps we need one another? I don’t like to think that is the case because I have to be the one that makes the decisions, pulls the strings and gets what I want. I dictate and you react. That’s the way it is isn’t it?

So, you carry on doing what you do best. Carry on imagining that people really do love you, that people really do like you and that they want to be with you because you are so wonderful and delightful. It is your performance that they want and you had better not forget that. You had better remember that you are beholden to their desires. You dance to the tune and he who pays the piper plays the tune. Everybody pays though don’t they?

The payment is what it is all about and you always make sure you get paid. You are never short-changed, ripped off or discounted. You won’t do anything without extracting your payment and you make sure you get full value for your endeavours don’t’ you? Nothing for free. Everybody pays. Nothing because you want to do it or feel you should. It is all about the payment. That is all you want, the payment for yourself.

Whore.

I hate you

47 thoughts on “Whore

  1. Eternity says:

    Very disturbing to be called that. I think the N should keep his opinions to himself .

  2. Karen says:

    Powerful. I saw myself speaking these words to him. In his need to control and manipulate he is weak, needy and pathetic. He has tried for almost a year to make me his but I knew him immediately. It has been a battle but I have not surrendered and I never will.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Hi Karen
      Is this someone you work with and that is the reason you have not gone no contact?

    2. Asp Emp says:

      It is not clear on what type of relationship there is going on between you and him. You sound as if you have your own ‘power’ against the narcissist’s ‘control’ – is that what you are saying – when you say you have not surrendered? Apparently, a relationship between an empath & a narcissist is not always impossible, providing the empath remembers to use what she has learned about narcissism & understands what she needs to do to maintain her ‘strength’. I have friends who are narcissists yet they are not in control of me, and these relationships work (because we have things in common / shared interests / actually like each other), now that I know a great deal more about narcissism, I can now understand my friends and their behaviours better. There are ways of getting round issues of a narcissist’s need for ‘control’ and an empath’s need to retain their ‘power’. I found the Assistance Package on ‘How To Deal With A Narcissist At Work’ (can be obtained via Knowledge Vault) very useful and a couple of articles that I found gave good insight ‘To Control Is To Cope : Narcissism And It’s Creation’ (use ‘Search’ to find this one); ‘The Creature – An Introduction’ (can be obtained via Knowledge Vault). KTN site has many other resources that can provide more understanding.

  3. lickemtomorrow says:

    I was reading “Sex and the Narcissist” today and HG gives a pretty good explanation for this phenomenon there:

    “Something else that you ought to be aware of is that with the put downs they reveal just how misogynistic our kind really are. We are misogynists because in order to control and oppress you we have to have a deep-seated hatred of you. This drives our desire, along with the prospect of fuel, in order belittle and control you. This misogyny is hidden because our façade of wonderful pleasantness and charm makes us seem as if we adore and respect women. We do not. We hate the fact that we are shackled to you in order to draw fuel from you and therefore we hate you. Since most narcissists are men, this means that misogyny rises to the fore. This is evidenced in the use of sexual put downs. Consider the following words:-

    Slut

    Slag

    Whore”

    Tudor, H G. Sex : How The Narcissist Views Sex and the Role It Plays In Your Entanglement (pp. 149-150). Insight Books. Kindle Edition.

    In my very last encounter with my narc he made reference to ‘sluts’. It kind of took me by surprise, especially after we’d been particularly intimate just prior to this. He never directly referred to me by such names, but the indirect reference threw up a red flag for me. It was crass and unnecessary, especially in the circumstances at the time. I couldn’t help but think he was in a manner referencing me and putting me in that category at the same time.

    I think he resented me and his need for me. Which came out loud and clear in his further devaluation and discard.

    1. Anm says:

      Lickemtomorrow, all of that shocked me too. The world is ran by Narcissist. Unfortunately, it’s still very much a man’s world out there still. Just think, our society is still very much forgiving of men’s behavior when they use those words. But empathic and narcissistic women are expected to be polite, articulate, and softspoken. We can’t have outburst or get overly emotional, like male narcisisst feel they are entitled to. This is also why it’s hard to calculate a percentage of women who are narcisisst, because narcisisstic women have often observed this already.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Interesting comment,, ANM. Combining the views of both empathic and narcissistic women in terms of how we respond to narcissistic men. I think the barrier there is our own attitudes. And rather than look to men I find it more empowering to look to myself as a means of combating that. So I regard my own attitudes rather than theirs. I find that empowering. A narcissistic man may say ‘such and such’, but I do not have to regard that. I look into myself for the truth of the matter. On that basis, what other people say holds no sway. Narcissistic women will operate from their own perspective and no doubt focus on the Prime Aims. If a narcissistic man said to me “you are a slut”, the words themselves might be hurtful, but the truth of the matter is I know I’m not a “slut” and wouldn’t accept what he had said. I might pull him up in response (though with narcs it’s better not to get into it), but I’m not going to let anyone else tell me who I am. That’s where I hold the power. Narcissistic men can say what they like. I don’t have to accept it.

    2. Fiddleress says:

      Interesting post, LET, thank you for this.

      The last narcissist I was involved with, for a few months, supported a writer who had just been charged for repeatedly having sex with underage teenage girls and pre-pubescent boys as a middle-aged man. That was what finally made me escape (after I’d been trying for a while). What that narcissist said made me physically sick for a good few days afterwards: he said that teenage girls ‘asked for it’ – ‘it’ meaning having sex with middle-aged men, just when several of that writer’s former victims (now adults) had expressed how it had ruined their lives. The N’s blatant hatred of women of any age was crystal clear that day.
      I suspected then that he had done the same too.
      And he had a daughter (now 23).

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        That is indeed very disturbing, Fiddleress, and I can understand you feeling sick at what he said.

        HG has clarified in the quote I posted that narcissists are misogynists. In that sense, and with that understanding, what the narcissist said is not that surprising. It is disgusting, but not surprising.

        Regardless of age or sex, the victim of this type of behaviour can be thought of no other way than as a victim. Nobody is asking for this type of behaviour or expecting it. It is on the perpetrator to take responsibility for their actions and this we know narcissists will never do. Hence, the “she was asking for it” comment. Narcissism combined with misogyny.

        One of the reasons I recommended to my eldest daughter to watch the Taylor Swift documentary was for this very reason. Taylor Swift was the victim of a sexual assault. She spoke up and in doing so encouraged others to do the same. It was actually a very emotional part of the documentary for me. And I applaud her for her actions. Giving other victims the courage to do the same. I wanted my daughter to see this kind of courage in action.

        My previous comment relates to my position as a mature woman with an ability to reason that I can take responsibility for my response to the narcissist, or any man for that matter. I do not need to take on board their perceptions, but already have my own perception and understanding of who I am. Therefore, in that respect, I do not consider myself a victim. A man may be a misogynist. I don’t have to be a victim. And I don’t place all men into that category, but accept what HG is highlighting here in terms of the narcissist.

        I’m very glad you found the means to escape in that situation, btw. It’s hard to know how his daughter might have suffered, but it’s a guarantee she suffered in some way.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          LET
          Have you read A Very Popular Narcissist?

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            No NA. Is that an article here?

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Well, I have now. I already knew she was a narc, so there’s confirmation a plenty in what HG has written. Her sexual assault case was not mentioned, and that was the particular incident I was referring to in this thread. When HG mentions her philanthropic work, and when I consider her response to this assault and her encouragement of others in similar situations, I can only admire her for that. Regardless of what lies at the bottom of it all, I’m not likely to reject any narcissist on that basis, much as I do not reject HG. Where she is doing good I applaud her.

            The documentary was interesting in how it revealed the element of her LOCE in her upbringing and it was obvious she was the golden child and trying to live up to that. The mother seemed to be with her almost everywhere and there was one point where she tried to gain some of the spotlight by commenting how she had cancer. It was a bit incongruous and Taylor reacted very oddly as well by commenting rather off handedly “I’m sorry you got cancer”. It was meant to sound like a joke, but cancer is no laughing matter and definitely showed a lack of empathy there.

            I could not help sensing how alone she must feel despite being surrounded by people. Or rather feeling empathy for her in the circumstances.

            Kanye West was a complete arrogant asshole to storm the stage when she won her Grammy. I thought so then and I still think so now. I thought about a “when narcissists collide” article for that one after watching it in the documentary again. WTF is he doing writing about it in a song? Lack of empathy (using that despicable act in a song), sense of grandiosity (I made that bitch famous). Calling her a bitch! And he didn’t make her famous. He made himself infamous. There’ll be a narcissistic element to the phone call he made to get her permission as well. She was foolish to agree, but I do believe she was attempting to manage her facade. Which is the ‘nice girl’. She looked stunned on stage when it happened. I felt sorry for her and no young woman deserves that kind of treatment or experience after winning an award. They showed a clip of her being interviewed after the event and she handled it so well and without any fanfare in terms of being upset or angry. I think she was still shell shocked. Shame on Kanye West for acting the bully in that situation. No doubt his misogynistic tendencies got the better of him. “She was asking for it”. Less about Beyonce and more about him.

            Regardless of how she got her start, she has made some amazing music and touched many people’s lives with her songs. The saddest part of all is she can’t experience the very thing she so often sings about. My empath heart goes out to her <3

        2. A Victor says:

          Wow, I told that summer narc at one point that he was something, misogynist or maybe something else, he carried on as if I hadn’t spoken. I was closer than I knew. LET, you are so right, anyone can be whatever but we have choices whether or not we will tolerate it, we can choose to walk away and when. That is empowering.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            I’m glad you think so, AV, and while acknowledging certain attitudes are out there my position is that the only way to empower myself is to consider my own truth. If a man/narcissist said to me “you are a slut”, I would look inside myself and know the truth of the matter, which is that I am not a ‘slut’ and therefore I can fashion my response. By deciding I will not tolerate the suggestion or walking away. It would not empower me in any way to say to him “you are a misogynist”, though that may be true. It’s like saying to the narc “you are a narcissist”. That may be true, but my power lies in my response.

          2. A Victor says:

            Exactly. Your power lies in taking action. When I said that to the summer narc, we weren’t debating or fighting or anything, he had just gone off again on one of his usual monologues about how women were the cause of all the ills in the world and, since we were still in the early stages, when I said that, he couldn’t allow himself to react badly. I said it very matter of factly also so there was really no good response, he knew to deny it would go nowhere. So, instead, he started a campaign to try even harder to get me to see that his stance was correct. After the first time I let him down, he no longer tried to convince me, I had proven it to myself, in his mind, and he came back to that later and tried to use it against me. I have 3 amazing daughters, it wasn’t going over well. So he gave up. Looking back, he was a pretty unpleasant person in many ways. Why didn’t I see it then? So strange.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey AV, I didn’t mean to be critical of you using the term ‘misogynist’ with your narc and I hope it didn’t come across that way. I was focused on the best way to become empowered <3 And I can sense you had him by the cajones in that situation while he was still trying to impress you! LOL to the notion women are the cause of all the world's ills and with three daughters I'm not surprised you tackled him. They sound like wonderful young women, btw x And he sounds like a piece of work.

            It really is amazing what we let the narc get away with in the circumstances and I think the answer lies in our vulnerability alongside the power of their seduction. Next time I'll have to make sure I take the time to stand on the outside of any relationship and see it from a more objective point of view, or through a logical lens. I guess it's our emotional thinking and the addiction underlying it that ultimately causes us to accept what the narc is offering. Thankfully HG creates an option for us to know for sure 🙂

        3. Fiddleress says:

          You are right, LET, saying that the girls “ask for it” is a perfect way of rejecting accountability.
          As for that narcissist, he told me that his daughter had refused to see him for about a year when she was 12-13, and he resorted to counselling (not sure how it’s called) to force the mother to let him see their daughter. The counsellor had found him ‘wonderful’ (so he said, but he did fool people easily with his charm).
          She doesn’t visit him often now, and it doesn’t always go well. Which annoys him because he knows he has largely lost power/control over this appliance. Good for her (last time I heard, she was going to live abroad – good way to limit visits!).

          May I ask you the name of the documentary you mentioned about Taylor Swift? I don’t know much about her, just that she sings because my daughter liked her songs.
          I feel that misogyny has been rife historically, almost everywhere, and depending on where you live, it is more or less strong still. But it is not going away quickly (I even have the feeling it is coming back where I live – it seems worse to me than when I was a young teenager and young adult, in the 1980’s/1990’s , when it had been getting better for a decade or two). Even some women are not bereft of misogyny, at least here.

          Thank you for what you said about me escaping. As I said in my reply to A Victor, escaping for real was hard, it took me about three months after I had come to the conclusion that I had to, after knowing him for only six months. Emotional thinking at the highest level I had ever had it, I think.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Fiddleress x

            The name of the documentary is “Miss Americana” 🙂 And it’s probably worth reading HGs article if you haven’t read it already. I found it very interesting. So, I can thank NA for the heads up there.

            Counselling, or perhaps mediation, sounds like the correct word for the effort your ex-narc made to re-engage with his daughter. It also sounds like he was able to pull the wool over the counsellor’s eyes, not so much his daughter. Children will make up their own minds and are able to do that as adults thankfully, so you would have to wonder whether she will maintain contact with him.

            And your escape sounds even luckier now <3 For him to have gotten such a hold in that space of time says to me he was particularly charming, as I can tell you are no pushover. Though, if I remember rightly, a level of vulnerability may have come into that at the time x

            Thanks for your response, Fiddleress. I'd be interested to hear your response to that documentary if you get a chance to watch it and I'm sure your daughter would enjoy it 🙂 Prepare for a big "awwww" when the kitten appears at the start!

          2. Fiddleress says:

            LET,
            Thank you for the reference of the documentary, I have found it on YouTube and will watch it. I have read HG’s article that NA mentioned (thanks, NA): very interesting breakdown of a narcissist’s behaviours!

            You remember rightly: I was already feeling vulnerable when I met that man, so because of that, I may have been a bit of a pushover for a while when the bad times started. He did have charm and that’s right, when I am well, I am no pushover. There may even be a dragon lurking somewhere inside of me, and I have started training it to throw flames at Mid-Rangers, haha!
            I will tell you my impressions after watching the documentary. It’s true, my daughter will probably be very interested too! Thanks again, LET.

          3. Fiddleress says:

            Edit to my previous post (wrong wording): some women are not bereft of misogyny, at least *where I live*.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            No problem, Fiddleress. Look forward to hearing your review, and your daughter’s reaction, too xox I can totally relate to the dragon metaphor, btw <3

          5. A Victor says:

            I know many young women who I would call misogynists, some even narcissists, though not casually. But they are not nice, beyond not nice, nasty.

        4. Fiddleress says:

          Hi lickemtomorrow
          I have watched the documentary about Taylor Swift (not on YouTube where there is one with the same title, but it’s not the same one I don’t think – no kitten there, and yes, what a cute kitten that was!). Even knowing she is narcissist, from what I gathered, I still found her vulnerable, or she was good at giving the impression that she was vulnerable. I agree that the passage you mentioned was a good move; she explained that even with several witnesses and a photograph, she still had to fight to make her case heard. Also the fact that it made her wonder how difficult it must be for women who are more badly abused but it is their word against the abuser’s, was interesting, it is so true.
          I am glad that having her bottom pinched was recognised as unacceptable. We must be the only country in the world where famous actresses (among which Catherine Deneuve, that you might have heard of) and women writers, actually published a text in newspapers here, promoting the right of men to pinch women’s bottoms on public transport (which of course, they never take!).
          A cartoon was published last week in my favourite newspaper with a take on the phrase “click and collect”: in the first picture you see a man pinching a woman’s bottom on the underground with the caption “click”, and in the second picture you see the woman turning around and slapping the man across the face with the caption “and collect”.
          My daughter said she would watch the documentary too, though knowing her, she’d be the sort to do as in the cartoon! I wouldn’t blame her.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            So glad you had a chance to watch it and feedback, Fiddleress.

            She did seem vulnerable at different points in that documentary, but the sexual assault case was her most vulnerable moment of all. It’s a situation that could speak to so many women who have endured this type of behaviour and never felt it was severe enough for them to react. And I’m focused on the unwanted nature of the behaviour. The photograph makes it so obvious he has dropped his hand to her butt and it defies explanation that she should somehow have to defend bringing a case against him. The beauty of what she did was also in the fact she sued him only for a dollar. It was to bring his actions to light, and though she was entitled to compensation, that measly amount made her statement even stronger for me. What she wanted was to be heard.

            I remember being on a physiotherapist’s table once and feeling very violated. He had me lay on the table face down and requested me to undo my bra. I did as I was asked and he doused me in some talcum powder while he worked his way around my neck and shoulders. Then his hands began to move lower on my back and began massaging the area close my breasts. I started to feel very uncomfortable, but didn’t say anything. I think I was in shock. The worst of it was the room was at the end of a long hallway and there didn’t appear to be anyone else around. I actually became very afraid as that sense of isolation sunk in. When he was finally done, I got out of there as fast as I could and never went back. The fact he was a health professional and just ‘doing his job’ meant I was reluctant to consider bringing the whole thing to anyone’s attention, and who would I go to? I was young then and naieve. And that is the problem for younger women/girls. Plus it was a very subtle manouevre in the circumstances and impossible to prove. The experience was very different to another I had where a guy grabbed me on the dance floor. On that occasion I did have an instinctive reaction where for the first and only time I slapped a man across the face.

            So I love your story of the “click and collect”. It’s a classic example of what should happen in the circumstances. I do believe Italian men love to pinch bottoms, too … must be a European thing! It’s hands off bottoms as far as I am concerned, though I would not be averse to a wolf whistle. There are ways of showing your appreciation that can be hands off. Some women may feel intimidated, and definitely some types of attention are the wrong type of attention. As women we have an opportunity to make those things clear.

            I’m glad your daughter is considering watching it and I did wonder if it would be better if you watched it first as I don’t know your daughter’s age. I recommended it to my eldest because she has a focus on leadership at the moment and Taylor showed some real leadership qualities in that instance.

            Thank you again for sharing your thoughts x

          2. Fiddleress says:

            Hi LET
            I can understand what you mean about feeling violated with that physiotherapist. When I was younger, I felt violated by any professional (and anyone) that touched me anywhere, and I think it is probably widespread among young girls and young women but not taken into consideration enough by professionals. A lot of lack of empathy in the medical and paramedical professions, I have found. At least where I live; in contrast, my daughter had to go to hospital in the UK in 2004 and I was simply amazed at how respectful they were of her, and they took their time, whereas she had been mistreated in hospital here just weeks before. I have always thought she must have been traumatised, and I was dismissed and badly treated too by them when I objected to the way they were treating her. It may have got better, but with all the stress they are now under, I am not sure.
            My daughter is 19.
            Thank you for sharing your experience, LET.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Fiddleress,

            Thanks for your response. I appreciate you sharing the story about your daughter and certainly the approach to physical examination can be intrusive at times and uncomfortable. There’s no doubt what needs to be done needs to be done at times. In my situation, I had a problem with my neck (upper cervical) and was seeking treatment for that. The physiotherapist’s actions were gratuitous and when I say he came close to my breasts he was literally caressing the part of them he could reach. As I was laid on my stomach he wasn’t able to grab a handful, but he certainly overstepped the mark and hence the reason for my discomfort. If he was a masseuse, different story. And even then I would probably know if someone was trying to ‘feel me up’ as opposed to just doing their job. It’s instinctive. And we know these people are often in a position of power over those they are treating. I think it is quite reasonable to hold health professionals to standards, especially in the context of more intimate procedures and encounters. There are women who have brought Gynaecologists to account over incidents where it was obvious they had done more than a physical exam, literally turning the experience into a sexual encounter.

            I fully believe the experience I had was a sexual encounter for the Physiotherapist.

            I don’t suggest it is common, but often a woman may not even question something like that as being inappropriate. I knew it was inappropriate, but accepted it due to the fact he was a professional. It’s another area where awareness needs to be raised.

          4. Fiddleress says:

            LET
            I am afraid I didn’t express myself accurately. I didn’t mean to suggest that it may have been you feeling violated without real reason, but re-reading what I wrote, it may have sounded that way, so I am sorry if that is how it came across. I wouldn’t dismiss your experience of what happened with that physiotherapist. That was despicable of him. Could you talk about it afterwards with someone? It is important to be heard and supported in such cases.
            And yes, it does happen that some professionals take advantage of their position to get sexual with patients.
            I almost mentioned gynecologists in my previous posts: one of our ministers (female) last year spoke out after many women had been telling of their bad experiences with (male) gynecologists, and not only in terms of sexual misdemeanour, but also in terms of their brutal ways when dealing with women. It goes to show the extent of the problem!
            I have always found it kinda weird anyway for a man to want to become a gynecologist. I wonder if there are as many female doctors who want to specialise in males’ genitals.
            I am glad that some awareness is being raised thanks to that minister, at least. And thanks to all the women who dared to speak up.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            No problem, Fiddleress, I don’t think I was very clear in my first post. I was trying to be delicate, but probably made it more confusing. And I admire anyone who has English as their second language in being able to be so eloquent and succint in their communication. I’ve meant to say this before. I really admire your abilities to move between two languages (an possibly more). It’s not something I’ve been required to do except when in school, or for my own interest. But I was never required to do it on a regular basis. So, I just want to acknowledge that before I go on <3 We have some wonderful women here who make great efforts to communicate and support others as we all try to contend with the issue that is narcissism x

            It's interesting that you have a Minister speaking up for women in those circumstances and I don't know how recent that is, but it's important that women feel able to speak up when they need to do so. And that's not to take away from the majority of respectable professionals, or men in general who may also have suffered at the hand of women who took advantage of their positions in various capacities. It's a can of worms when you think about it.

            I have for the most part had male Gynaecologists and never thought twice about it. I've also never had a problem with any of them. There is an objectivity that goes along with the medical profession in general which counters a lot of the concerns anyone might have. You expect them to do their job and appreciate their willingness to go places most other people would not dare to go! Well, in the sense of it not being a pleasure seeking activity.

            Anyway, no apology was necessary and it's been an interesting conversation. At the time that happened to me, I just swallowed it, so to speak, as many people are inclined to do. You're in shock at the time and that brings me back to Taylor Swift and Kanye. Her reaction to his storming the stage says it all. She didn't know how to react to that. And for the most part let it go. Fortunately when it came to the butt touching episode she was more mature and able to tackle the situation head on.

            Definitely feeling able to share makes it easier, and I've never spoken to anyone of it before posting about it in this thread. That's how deep it was buried and it was a long time ago. It wasn't severe, but it was disconcerting at the time. And I hate the thought of anyone being put in a position where they feel compromised in that way.

          6. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you for your reply, LET, I’m glad that what I wrote was OK.
            I agree that it is a can of worms when you think about it. That minister (for “equality between women and men”) spoke over a year ago, only. It was in the wake of the #metoo movement, when women dared to start talking of experiences that they had been putting up with but felt were not right. I am sure it is not the majority of women who have had unpleasant experiences, with gynecologists for instance, but I have seen the difference between this country and the UK, again (much more gentle there). I won’t go into detail just now, but my experience at the hospital where my son was born was horrendous. Not sexual, but brutal, uncaring, unnecessarily painful and totally disrespectful. That was in 1994. I said nothing then, and am still angry today at the memory. Everything went much better at the hospital in my home city where my daughter was born in 2001.

            Thank you for what you said regarding my English! That is extremely sweet of you. I lived in the UK for four years. The English language is the big love of my life. It is the language that I teach, too.
            I just love studying languages, because I strongly believe that a language shapes your perspective on life and the world (though it could be the other way round too: your surroundings shape your language) and I enjoy learning about different perspectives. As far as modern languages go, I studied Spanish in secondary school, and although I still read in Spanish (contemporary literature, I couldn’t read Don Quixote in its original version), I am not so fluent. I also studied Russian in High school and university, but the total lack of practice means that I could not have a conversation today in that beautiful language. Of the other languages I have studied briefly for various reasons (German, Swedish, Breton and Hebrew, none of which I am really fluent in for lack of opportunities to practise), Hebrew is the most fascinating! Its grammar is something else, and the formation of words is just amazing. This is one language I intend to continue studying when I can attend the lessons again.
            Boy, don’t get me started on the topic of languages! Didn’t mean to boast, I just love language(s).

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Fiddleress, thank you for your response and clarifying a little more about the Minister and her impetus for highlighting the issue at hand. It’s a element of the snowball effect where people have felt unable to share (or perhaps accepted the behaviour unwittingly) until they suddenly realize they are not the only one and it’s a veritable avalanche of experiences being shared. There are people who have been horribly abused and their stories are heartbreaking to hear. What can get missed are the more subtle experiences and encounters which get brushed off for various reasons. It’s like a hidden layer which needs to be exposed. If for no other reason than we deserve to be respected.

            I didn’t know you lived in the U.K. for a few years, but that would certainly have helped your language skills. And you have experience with quite a few languages by the sounds of things. They are fascinating and I actually studied French in school 🙂 I remember having to read Albert Camus’ “L’Etranger”, but probably couldn’t tell you much about it now (as in reading it in English I would have retained it better!) I know I would translate in my mind from French to English when reading it for the most part. Which was exhausting 😛 We had an Oral exam in my final year and I had to present to a special organisation for testing. There were three examiners who had a conversation with me and I just remember talking about tennis! But, I really enjoyed the French language and sadly never got to take it for a good test run even though I spent a long time living overseas. I also learnt Irish before I travelled to Ireland. Much like you I enjoy languages, but have spent my life for the most part in English speaking countries. It’s wonderful that you love languages so much and I, too, have a fascination with them, but have yet to follow up on my interest in many.

            Just getting back to your hospital experience. What you went through with the birth of your son sounds traumatic and like it was very badly handled. That is not an experience you want to have with your first child and it seems the system in your country was sadly lacking at the time. I don’t know if it has improved since then, but I would hope so. I can say I would not change any of my birthing experiences (though I might tweak them a bit!) They were all different, but none of them traumatic per se. I’ve had drugs, no drugs, stoic births and no holds barred deliveries (the one without drugs :P) But I’m guessing those stories are for sharing on another forum!

            Once again, I applaud your command of English and appreciate your native tongue. You’ve inspired me to think about languages again and how much more I have to learn <3

          8. Fiddleress says:

            LET
            It’s great to hear that you enjoyed French and you studied Camus! He is one of my favourite French writers (I never much liked Jean-Paul Sartre, for instance, who behaved like a real prat towards Camus).

            A birth without drugs, ouch! I think I am glad I did not experience this at least (C-sections for me, not out of choice).
            In fact, that Minister spoke about what I mentioned in 2017. Time flies!
            Learning Gaelic to go to Ireland, that is such a great thing to do! I only learnt a few basic sentences with an Irish friend I met when living in the UK, but I loved the sound of that language. Yes, living in the country is the best way to really get the hang of a language. For the last two years I was in the UK, I did not speak a word of French, so to speak, and it took me a while to get my sentence patterns back to normal when I came back home. That was funny. For a long time I felt that I was neither here nor there after leaving Britain.
            May I ask you where you lived overseas? Did you meet narcissists from different parts of the world? After coming across narcissists from different countries, I can now reflect back and see how they have more things in common than differences owing to their culture, although the narcissism does have a ‘local’ flavour depending on where they come from. That is my impression, anyway. (All of them Mid-Rangers, I am afraid.)

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Fiddleress,

            Back to birthing experiences, I realized after my first two deliveries that I did not like to have things ‘attached’ to me during labour, and sensed a lack of control in the circumstances. Ha! More like the narcissist than not. I wanted to be left alone, which is why I opted for a natural delivery on my third baby. I went primal 😛

            The Irish call the language Irish as opposed to Gaelic, though that is how it is commonly referred to around the world. Part of the reason for learning was to immerse myself in the country and its culture. It combined many things, but language was a part of that. I did not become a fluent speaker, it’s a language very little spoken apart from certain pockets of the country, but most things have a composite Irish/English interpretation in Ireland. Government documentation will have an English and Irish version included. There are Irish schools which are called Gaelscoil’s which are basically Irish language school’s and everything is taught, read, and spoken in Irish. Perhaps more on that later.

            I can agree with you that narcs are the same the world over. How good would it be if you could create your own independent narc free territory? I’ve read “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” and I can honestly say in this case I’d be happy for the Martians to return to their own planet 😛

        5. Fiddleress says:

          That’s funny, I’ve been to Ireland a few times and in the South West, a sign says “You are entering a Gaelic-speaking area”, and my Irish friend calls it Gaelic too (sometimes Irish Gaelic, to differentiate from Scottish Gaelic, even if this ‘Gaelic’ is pronounced differently). But maybe some people refer to it as Irish to say/show that it is the language of the country, as in ‘the only real one’. Whereas everyone speaks English too.

          I can understand not liking things to be attached to you while giving birth, LET. They had actually tied my arms to the birthing table (which was in the shape of a cross!) when my son was born during the C-section (under epidural). That is only one of the things I still hold against them. And I said somewhere that I didn’t bear grudges, haha.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            No doubt the reason for the schools being called “Gaelscoil’s”, as in Irish language schools. When being spoken of the reference to them is often “Irish school”. My experience is that in general the Irish do not refer to their own language as Gaelic, but Irish. It’s the official language of the country. I guess we have different experiences and I lived there for some time. The West Coast of Ireland is beautiful. I’m glad you had a chance to enjoy it.

            As to the experience you had when your son was born, I have absolutely no idea why they would strap you to a table like that. It sounds atrocious and very frightening. That’s much worse than what I was referring to which was the attaching of various monitors, drips, etc. I didn’t like that, so I would have hated what they did to you, which was virtually immobilize you. I can imagine that would take a very long time to get over and understand why you would hold that against them. I’m very sorry to hear you had to go through that. I think as much as possible a woman should be in control of her own birthing experience. Hopefully you had more opportunity to do that the second time round x

          2. Fiddleress says:

            Hi LET
            I had the opportunity to revisit the Irish/Gaelic thing with that friend (and a Scottish one), and it seems that calling Irish, Gaelic, is a statement of sorts (cultural, historical, linguistic). Those friends are quite militant concerning that issue 🙂

            Thanks for what you said; I know that what I wrote about my arms being strapped sounds insane, but I swear it is true (and I was not a prisoner: women prisoners are actually shackled to the bed while giving birth). Other things happened too but they are too intimate to relate here, and I still get worked up when I talk or write about them.
            This is what I just found which is, or was till very recently, current. It was published in Belgium, about France:
            “Sur Internet, d’autres témoignages affluent, en général en provenance de France. Certains font froid dans le dos : on y parle par exemple de césarienne alors que l’anesthésie n’est pas effective, les bras attachés, entre autres.” It mentions C-sections done without effective epidural (not my case) and arms strapped down.
            From a famous French magazine (Elle): “ses bras attachés en croix au bloc opératoire… ” arms strapped like on a cross in the operating room (for a C-section – current practice. Here’s the article: https://www.elle.fr/Societe/News/Violences-obstetricales-quand-l-accouchement-vire-au-cauchemar-aujourd-hui-les-femmes-en-parlent-3493403).
            That happened to me in a hospital just outside Paris which was supposed to be the best in the area! But it was more like a factory. I experienced none of that brutality for my daughter’s birth, elsewhere. Those forms of brutality during childbirth could apply to up to 30% of women having babies – maybe less now that awareness has been raised, recently.
            Sorry if this is OT, HG, but somehow I feel that it is part of encouraging women (in this case) not to take ANY kind of shit in whatever circumstances. That was my first child and I knew I would have been brutally rebuffed had I objected, but I still wish I had shouted at them. It’s a question of dignity, even if a very small assertion of it.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Fiddleress,

            My eldest daughter was a fluent Irish speaker up until the age of 12yrs. She attended a Gaelscoil (Irish school) and when she was required to speak ‘as Gaeilge’ it was understood she was to speak in Irish. She also wanted to be the President of Ireland (ambitious from an early age). All the children attended the Naoinra, or Irish nursery school, when they were young. So, it’s horses for courses on this one. It was rarely referred to as Gaelic in my experience. And no doubt had the same amount of culture and history, as well as linguistic value, attached. And militancy can certainly lend itself to the use of the Irish language.

            I’m going to have to brush up on my French a little for the article you posted, but it sounds like a large percentage of women went through the same ordeal which continues to sound horrific. I agree on women not taking any shit with regard to one of the most life changing experiences they will have. Often not knowing what to expect on a first child can set you up for interventions you are not prepared for and it can very much feel like things are taken out of your hands. In my case I think the doctor was looking to be off on New Year’s Eve, so an Oxytocin drip was a simple solution to help speed things along. I don’t remember getting any explanation for that. Just that they were going to hurry me up a bit (after being in labour for 12 hours). No epidural for that one, and gas and air plus Pethidine barely took the edge off. It’s amazing how we go back for seconds 🙂 At least you had a better experience the second time around x

      2. A Victor says:

        Fiddleress, I am so glad you got away from that narcissist.

        1. Fiddleress says:

          Hello A Victor, and thank you.
          I actually saw him one last time at his place two weeks later to fetch some important work I had left there. Had I known narcsite then, I would have arranged for another way of getting that work back rather than go in person. But I knew then it was the very last time, though I didn’t let him know. He said “see you soon” and I answered nothing and just looked away.

          And yet, for several months after my escape I was in a state that many of us here have experienced, and which HG describes too. Those were horrible months, and it just goes to show how blurring emotional thinking is.

          Hope you are doing well, A Victor.

          1. A Victor says:

            It’s encouraging that you are no longer in that state Fiddleress, that you were able to sort out your thinking and become clear-headed again. The success stories here are so helpful.

            I am doing much better today than a couple of days ago, thanks.

  4. Asp Emp says:

    The narcissist wants and NEEDS the attention to all themselves – not to be shared with anyone else – only them, the narcissist…… so if they see their ‘deserving and entitled attention’ being given to someone else, the person is seen to be a ‘whore’. But the narcissist cannot see when THEY are the ‘whores’, demanding this, demanding that, entitled to this and entitled to that….. it’s impossible for a shepherd to only care for one naughty sheep when they have a flock of hundreds of other sheep to care for……. sigh.

  5. HealingHealer says:

    This is the most offensive article that I have read on narcsite. What do you want to suggest by using the word “Whore”?? And what does this article even mean. This is not you HG. Who has written this?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I wrote it.
      It is for you to work it out, not for me to explain as by so doing, you will learn far more.

      1. monica says:

        This is beautiful.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Just like me.

    2. Witch says:

      I think it’s meant to be an example of how the narcissist uses projection

      1. Eternity says:

        Exactly Witch, and Provocation.

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