Caught In A Lie
I have explained previously that lying is like breathing for our kind. Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists tell lies and believe them, they are their truth. They do not recognise that they are lying and therefore there is no question of guilt, remorse or conscience because they do not see that they are doing something which is seen as wrong by you. Such is the joy of ignorance.
Greater Narcissists tell lies where some are believed by the Greater, the True Believer Status of those narcissists which operate in the rarefied atmosphere of control, power and privilege and are responsible for many of the glories and ills of the world you inhabit. However, much of the lies of the Greater are conscious lies and are told because of our innate Machiavellian nature wherein the end justifies the means and therefore there is nothing to be lost by knowingly lying and everything to gain. Unhindered by guilt, conscience or remorse, we will knowingly tell lies to serve our needs which will include the sheer entertainment of knowing we are lying and the impact it has on our victims.
What about when the narcissist is caught in a lie? Many of you will have witnessed this. The Greater is not caught in a lie because the sheer force of our lies, the level of our intellect and the extent of our scheming means that the lie is either undetectable or if it is, we are not caught in it. There is always an exit, whether that is through charm, massive plausible deniability or the operation of some manipulation, the Greater may occasionally have a lie exposed, but is never caught in it.
But what about the the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist? You will have caught them in a lie on many occasions. What happens and surely their reaction means that they know they are caught lying?
No, it does not.
If you boldly accuse a narcissist of lying or you are less candid so you present a contradictory state of affairs between what the narcissist has said and some other evidence, what will you be met with?
This amounts to a challenge to the narcissist. You will be presenting Challenge Fuel and thus there is no wounding. However, your challenge to the narcissist by suggesting, forcefully or with subtlety that he or she has lied, is stating that the narcissist is wrong and thus you are offending the narcissists sense of superiority and seeking to pin accountability on the narcissist. You are not allowed to do this.
These challenges to superiority through our sense of entitlement to do what we want and need and to the lack of accountability threaten our control. Thus you will meet the First Line of the Twin Narcissistic Lines of Defence, which is denial.
You will be told that you are wrong, that this never happened, that you are incorrect, that you are making scandalous accusations, that your memory is haphazard or that you are making things up. All of these things and others amount to denial.
Denial will be maintained again and again and again until either you give up (thus giving the narcissist control and your challenge has ended) or you present something (usually independent corroborative evidence (such as a text, a picture, a video recording or somebody else’s testimony). If you do the latter you break through the First Line and thus you expose the lie.
This means the narcissist MUST in order to maintain control, fall back to the Second Line of the Narcissistic Twin Lines of Defence, which is in effect, any other manipulation and we have plenty of those. To understand more about the Twin Lines of Narcissistic Defence, read The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence.
However, if you break through the First Line and present evidence showing a disconnect between what the narcissist says has happened and something else, has the narcissist not seen that he has lied? Does he not gain knowledge that he has lied? Is she not now fixed with realisation that she has lied?
No.
The reaction you see is not of realisation that a lie has been exposed but instead the reaction to the loss of control, which you, understandably (because of your worldview) but mistakenly, see as realisation of been caught lying.
It is not.
It is a realisation that something is not right. The unconscious loss of control manifests in a conscious response through the application of the Second Line.
Thus, this is why the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist does not know that he or she is lying and does not see the lie has been exposed, they merely sense a threat to their control and you become the problem which results in the application of a further manipulation through the application of the Second Line.
Dependent on the school of narcissist, the response may be plausible or be completely ridiculous, but it will be used because the narcissist is blind to the lie. All that matters is asserting control and quashing your challenge in some way.
You may receive some ridiculous comment which lacks credibility but it will be accompanied by a manipulation such as physical violence, smashing the phone on which your evidence is presented, a circular conversation, a bout of projection, a sudden massive word salad or any other form of manipulation from the many at our disposal, but it will always come.
It is akin to those films where someone is home alone and the madman or monster bursts into the house. The victim falls backwards, frantically scrambling away and reaching for anything, absolutely anything to use against the advancing threat to counter it. Sometimes the victim will reach for a gun and shoots countering the aggressor, thus that narcissist came up with a plausible response to being caught in a lie, sometimes the victim throws a knife, a candlestick or a rubber chicken. All have varying levels of effectiveness – just like the plausibility of the lie. Often you will still see through it, but it is the accompanying manipulation which enables the narcissist to scramble free of being caught in the lie.
You know the lie has been told, but that is not the issue. It is control and that is what the narcissist seeks. Even if the lie remains live and on the record, if control has been attained by punching you, flouncing off, shouting at you or embarking on a thirty minute word salad monologue then that is all that matters.
But now, let us hear from you, when you have caught the narcissist in a lie, share with us, those absolute corkers and belters that would have Pinocchio embarrassed. Explain the circumstances and what was said and then look at what else happened alongside it to realise how it is not so much the lie that matters but the need for control.
20 thoughts on “Caught In A Lie”
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I caught his lies with all the screenshots as proofs. He was silent. No words to say.. He asked me what i want to do now that i know. I told him that what i want to do, where i go, who i am with is none of his business now. And he said that now that i know…you can hang up. I hung up and after a few days, he texted that he was feeling suffocated with me and he wanted to break up anyways. He said that he wants to breathe now. Thus making it look like he broke up with me.
He generally had all his manipulative lies pretty well tied up tight, in hindsight I see them all. 😡 But when any overwhelming evidence caught up to his lie and I called him out on it, his reaction was always the same. “F*** it!” he would shout, because he couldn’t manipulate and come out of the corner, and that was it case closed. Never admitted, just dismissed by him permanently.
My conundrum is that I was told it wasn’t fair and was a setup if I knew the answer to a question and asked it anyway… That I couldn’t hold him responsible for lying if I knew the truth and persued validation. I know you’re saying they don’t realize they are lying (lesser or mid) so maybe that was a type of word salad? Or pinning it back onto me as a form of projection? It baffled me lol.
He also got mad at me for calling out my teen on issues of honesty, he told me lying was a life skill and it was obvious that my inability to lie hadn’t done me any favors, maybe some smaller or white lies are realized? He took great pride in his ability to lie and manipulate yet claimed to have a ‘strong moral compass’.
His best one to date was claiming he was staying overnight with a female friend for purely platonic reasons lmao! Well, that and claiming to have gone to a fertility clinic and tested sterile… We have a daughter now and that paper still keeps getting lost in transit. So glad I don’t have to deal with the daily outbursts anymore!
Oh the lies I have been told! You guys wouldn’t believe the ridiculousness (or maybe you would) of the recent ones I’ve been told. They make zero sense. And me and my big mouth has called him on every single last one of them and guess what I got as a way for him to reassert his control? 2 scraped hands and knees from me falling on them in the street after he hit me. I’m not one who gets physically abused and have only had this occur with one narc and that was 10 years ago. Well, in order for me to reassert my control as in take my power back, he now is facing an assault charge. I’m no cop caller but because I knew what was going on as far as the disengagement goes and knew I had nothing to lose so me pressing charges is showing him that there are consequences fror his actions.
What I am curious about is why he felt he needed to even do a discard on me since I’m not in a relationship with him an neither is she, although she thinks she is. I’m sure he can juggle 2 hook ups, so why he felt the need to do a discard on me, is anyone’s guess.
Laughing (and recalling) the conversation about the ‘rubber chicken’. Hilarious.
Having said that, I recall causing a ‘404’ moment for the MRN (not the only narcissist I did that to) – when I ‘called’ them out, the MRN went pale and reacted in a defensive way. I was not incorrectly accusing him of being unfaithful / disloyal (in his perception I was “accusing” him).
The lies were so obvious that I was ashamed for a very long time and sometimes I still feel down on myself for believing them, but I. DID. NOT. KNOW. I didn’t know Ns existed, and they were so believable. I understand that they didn’t realize they were lying. I won’t waste my breath with any future N.
Sure, Jan. Sure.
I looked away so many times, not realizing I was doing so, justifying and choosing to believe his lies, even when I had proof of his lies. Such was the strength of my addiction, ugh. Now I want to believe never again will that happen but…I am still addicted. That’s what makes it so scary to think of trying again. TS and I have decided I will golf for finding men to be friends with and no romantic stuff, so not scary.
P.S. Rubber Chicken!! I laughed out loud. Thx for the chuckle!
I had gone out to get groceries come and had left my ex alone with our ten month old son. I asked him to feed him while I was gone. When I got home, I gave my son a bottle, which he sucked down so fast I was astounded. I asked, did you feed him?
Oh yes yes, I fed him he responded. I was very suspicious . What did you feed him? I asked. Oh, some yoghurt and some fish fingers, he said. We’re out of yoghurt and fish fingers I said, that’s why I went to the store. Oh no no no no, there were some left from lunch, he said. No, at there were not, I replied I threw them out.
At that point, I looked at the bag of garbage that was by the back door that needed to be taken out. I thought you were going to take the garbage out, I said. I did, He replied.
Even thinking about this exchange from nearly 20 decades ago makes me angry. Mostly, because my son was so hungry — he just couldn’t be bothered to feed him.
Hi Sarah, these are some of the most difficult ones for me, the ones that have affected our children. Did you stay with him long?
My ex took our then 3 year old son with him to a drug deal once. I understand your anger, I have the same reaction after 15 years.
Also, I saw your comment regarding forgiveness on another thread, there was quite a discussion on that a while back. But, I fall where you do with it, I choose to forgive for my sake, not theirs. I do struggle with anger at their choices still sometimes and living in the house with my mother at this time makes it an ongoing decision but that is my thinking on it. It was a good discussion though, I learned many different ways that people approach forgiveness and ways that people think of it as well, valuable overall for opening my mind a bit and seeing other people’s perspectives.
Hello A Victor — no, I ended the relationship shortly after. But the divorce was a prime example of him asserting control. He lost, however, and lost BIG. But again, a nightmare for the kids. Interestingly, his nonsense got my very involved in my case, which I ended up doing extensive work on, and a legal career was born! The kids are still really affected by him, although they don’t understand what he is. What actually come that’s not true, his eldest daughter (first marriage) has got him pegged.
A drug deal??? Good lord! How are your kids now.
Forgiveness is an interesting concept, isn’t it?
Yes, my son was too young to know what was going on, he doesn’t even remember it, and no one else ever knew, except for me. My son is 18 now and doing fine, my ex didn’t spend much time with our kids at all, and once he left, he never looked back.
I am sorry to hear your children are still affected, it is good they have a mother who is aware, it will help.
Yes, forgiveness is interesting, for sure.
My ex moved to a city 7 hours away for work for one year not long before we got married. I went to visit him and, as he reclined on his bed, I pulled a box of papers out from under, recognizing some things I’d given him. There, right on top, was a card signed “Guess Who”, and not in my handwriting. He was watching me, very relaxed. I said, who gave this to you? He said, well you must have, where else would it come from? Me-It’s not from me, that’s not my handwriting. He-Well, it must be, it couldn’t come from anyone else. And so on. After this went on for a while, I set it back in the top and put the box back under the bed. It was never mentioned again. Challenge complete.
I’d been planning to end our relationship when he moved away but ended up pregnant the night before he left. 3 weeks later I knew and the rest is (a sad) history.
I presented my wife with her satnav history – “you could have put that information in there” she replied.
I showed her the picture of the AirBnB she stayed in “I could have gone on my own” she hissed I have the transaction history from her bank statements too.
I showed her the picture of her stained panties. This hit the spot all right she flew into a rage and stormed off upstairs. I went back to work after my lunch break. She spent the afternoon crying on her bed.
My daughter told me about her crying. She cried for an hour and a half.
Then she told my son I was being mean to her and he had a go at me later that evening.
We are six months into our divorce and we have had two attempts at exchanging financial information. Missing and incomplete bank statements and valuations of assets have not been done or woefully undervalued.
I know she isn’t going to comply with the process properly. I am giving her one last chance to do it before I take her to court.
If I had been the one to have played away I can tell you for certain a that I would not still be living in the matrimonial home and would be sofa surfing somewhere.
Chimpezium, I am so sorry to hear your story, and that you’re in the midst of it still. My story was from almost 3 decades ago, I’ve been away from him for over a decade, life is better, it will get better for you also. But it doesn’t lesson the pain, hurt and anger when you’re in the middle of it. I wish you all the best, hang in there. Thanks for sharing.
r AV, you got ‘triangulated’ by a cad…. (not a typo error) – probably did it himself, assertion of control
Hahaha! You’re correct! And that ass probably did do it!! Laughing! Thanks, I needed that!
There were times when I never understood the lying and how people would benefit from it.I found the answer to my question with this article and its sad for this kind of narcissists to believe there own lies.Its sad for these people.It really is.I guess its not there fault either as they are still people on this planet and still deserve to be loved.Im speechless.
The “they need love too” thing is a quandary for sure, especially for us empaths who want to love everyone, or at least know someone loves everyone.
Thank HG for this article.Im starting to understand more every day.