What Goes On Below

below

“Do that again and you will regret it.”

Those are the words which I will speak in about five minutes, but I am getting ahead of myself.

Welcome to my court. Here I am, sat at my rightful place at the head of the table. Prominent, elevated and overseer of those that have been magnanimously invited to look upon me and bask in their admiration of my glory. I sit, fork in one hand and knife in the other. There is food on my plate but I pay it no regard as I did not prepare it. Instead I am smiling. That rich, bountiful smile of the generous ruler that I am as I allow my subjects to draw close to me and experience a fragment of what it is like to be as brilliant as me. I know I am brilliant because right now the flames of power are high and bright inside of me.

They are strong, they are intense and the power they imbue is washing back and forth over me, causing this rictus grin to become affixed to my face. I could not remove this smile even if I wanted to because it has been plastered there by the power that is coursing through me.

This power is edifying and invigorating, twisting flames which dart and climb inside of me so that I feel as if I am taking off. I have to fight to remain in my seat as I want to leap onto the table, booted feet scattering plates and glasses as I allow this power to overwhelm me and I surge towards a higher place and thus empowered I will speak to those assembled and dazzle them.

My mind races, thoughts fighting with one another. I see the smiling faces, the open mouths denoting laughter, I can hear the delight and amusement that I have caused amongst my dinner guests. I did that. I had all eyes on me, those eyes widening with interest and adoration as I regaled my anecdote to the guests. Each focused pair of eyes, the expressions of concentration, the rapt attention that was flowing my way, the mouths closed, set silent not daring to nor needing to interrupt me, all demonstrated that I was the sole attraction here.

As my own eyes looked from face to face, never truly distinguishing who each person was, I drank in the fuel. It was not the recognition of who those people are but rather the emotions that I could see, hear and sense. Each look of admiration, each closed mouth which told me that the floor was mine and they had no need to interrupt as they wanted to listen, from each of the people sat around the table caused fuel to flow towards me, just as I wanted. Here, in my court, sat in my throne, I am surrounded by my lieutenants and members of my coterie.

These inner circle individuals who are supportive, respectful and loyal to me because they know how fortunate they are to be associated with me. Their laughter, delight and admiration flows around the room, like fuel in a tank and I want it all. How wonderful this power is, how it enables me to shine and dazzle so I receive even more of this precious resource. I nod slowly in recognition, almost able to see the pipelines which lead from each guest to me. I can picture the golden, sparkling fuel as it is pumped towards me, ready to feed those flames of power and then I see it.

Your pipeline is empty. Nothing flows along it. That is when I see that you are not laughing, you are not even smiling at my entertaining recollection. Instead, your stare ahead showing nothing as I delivered the flourish of the conclusion to my tale.

In that instant the flames become doused. They are snuffed out and suddenly the power that they created is starting to ebb and I can feel myself falling, sinking and then that sensation of unease begins to spread, from the centre of my chest and radiating outwards. You are sat there seemingly unmoved by my anecdote but not only that you have chosen to signal to me that it did not entertain you, but it meant nothing to you. I can feel the wound caused by your bored look. It pains me, evidence of the criticism which you have sent my way, unjustified and unwarranted.

Then it happens. I feel the ignition as the fury has a spark set to it. The rage begins to climb inside of me. I can feel its effect trying to twist my face into a snarl but I have to control it. Important members of my façade are here, it would not do to explode as I feel like I must do so and let you know what you have done to me.

I want to pick up this crystal glass and hurl it from my end of the table to your end so it strikes you on the forehead and knocks you from your seat. I want to smash a plate over your head but I must control these manifestations of the rage that is rising inside of me. I know I can. I have done it many times before. Thankfully nobody else has seen your treacherous behaviour and I manage to shift my blackening gaze from you to the lady to my left and she is continuing to smile. Yes, smile for me Helen, smile, yes, good.

“That was hilarious, I love your stories,” she remarks as she cuts at the meat on her plate.

I feel power returning from this fuel she has provided for me. Thank you Helen, thank you, I knew I could rely on you. Yes, and you as well Tom, good, sweet Tom who never fails to laugh at everything I say and is still doing so. I can feel the rage being beaten back by this additional fuel which continues to fuel. I blink twice, caught between the receding fury and the gathering power from the fuel.

I can sense the relief as the power begins to wash over me again as I avoid looking at you and keep drinking in the fuel from my friends, my good, kind and loyal friends. They know what to do. They would not betray me, not like you. I am beginning to wonder why I even bother with you now. It is not as if you contribute much over dinner anyway. I would have thought that you would have realised that it is your role to support me and allow me to shine, but you seem not to want to do that do you? I don’t know why. It is not as if I have not been kind to you, too kind maybe, perhaps you need reminding of why you exist? Yes, a prompt reminder is called for.

I would cut you down right now with a scything comment but that might fracture the façade. After all, nobody saw what you did and I am not so stupid as to do something which damages everybody’s favourable impression of me. No, my acidic tongue, although itching to lash out at you, for the fury is still there, albeit diminishing, will stay still in my mouth at this dinner table. I continue to drink in the fuel, feeling powerful, emboldened and engorged. I can tell Helen is interested in me and why not? Perhaps a promotion is on the cards for her, moving her from inner circle friends to intimate partner and installation as primary source. She would relish the opportunity. I have no doubt about that.

I am forced to put consideration of a personnel change to one side as I see you leave the table and head towards the kitchen. Here is my chance.

“Excuse me ladies and gentlemen,” I smile again as I stand. All eyes swing my way again, expectation dancing in them.

“I have some more wine for you.”

There is a cheer and the fuel flows further for me at this delighted reaction to my largesse. The flames are climbing now as I leave the table and the chatter of the guests behind and enter the kitchen where you are about to pick up the tiered cake that you have created for pudding. You whip around as soon as you sense my presence and your eyes are round as you have anticipated what is coming. Good, you recognise my greatness and it does not create defiance but rather uncertainty and fear. I can see your concern etched across your face.

“Do that again and you will regret it,” I say slowly, my eyes staring straight at yours, my gaze impenetrable and darkening. You shrink back as I loom over you. I can feel the flames rising as the negative fuel pumps from you, your fear and apprehension just what I wanted.

“Do what?” you reply.

“Don’t fucking lie to me,” I hiss and this makes you jump. The flames lick a little higher.

“I don’t know what you mean,” you protest. You are rooted to the spot but leaning away from me, your body language fuelling me as it displays your obvious unease.

“Yes you do, how dare you fucking roll your eyes at me,” I press.

“I didn’t.”

“Are you saying I am making it up?”

“No, no, I just I er, “you start to flounder, caught between wanting to cling to the truth, truth-seeker that you are and cautious of enraging me further.

“You just what? Spit it out,” I command.

“I er,”

I want to smile as I delight in your apprehension and the simple exhibition of my power over you. In an instant I have drawn my negative fuel from you and stunned you into confused silence. Power indeed.

“Well?” I urge. I am enjoying this. This is all good fuel.

“Nothing. I am sorry, I must have been distracted by something else, I have a lot on my mind with work, you know, I will push it to one side and enjoy the evening, I am sorry.”

Your apology strengthens the flames. I hold your gaze a little longer as your eyes flick from my left eye to my right eye as if you expect to find approval or forgiveness in them.

“You better had,” I say softly as I continue to look at you, “otherwise…….”

I extend the forefinger on my left hand and slowly and deliberately push it into the sponge of the cake, my digit driving into the yielding cake. Your eyes stare at the gesture as your mouth tightens in fear. I remove my finger leaving a deep and obvious indentation in the top of the cake as I lick my finger clean. I continue to stare at you and wait.

You nod.

There it is the compliance I sought.

The fuel flows and now I can turn and return to my waiting admirers having ensured you understand who is the master and who is the servant.

No raised voices. No smashed plates. No slamming doors.

Façade maintained, fuel obtained and control asserted.

This is what goes on below.

298 thoughts on “What Goes On Below

  1. Duchessbea says:

    HG,
    I am aware that my sister has insulted you with comments that she made, please accept my apology on her behalf.
    You also sent me a very decent and explanatory comment, where you quite rightfully wanted me to back up everything that had happened. When I contacted you on the night I became aware, I was furious with my sister for what she had done. I still am. But I had to weigh up the situation as it is and the fact that she did what she did when she is fully not herself, I had to let it slide. Knowing her true character before she has effectively spiralled out of control, would she have done the same, I don’t think so, at least I’d like to think not. And very much NOT using someone else’s username. I respect the fact that you gave great advice and allowed me to comment further.
    The sense of betrayal from what my sister has done, is very hard to accept. I treated her very well in my home and that fact that she did this against me, is hard to accept. But it is a big lesson learned, and not one easily forgotten. Once a narc, always a narc. We had an intervention with her last night. I just couldn’t have her in my house any longer. My eldest brother has taken her to live with him. She is out of control and the only person that can’t see it is her. We have also closed down all of her accounts and one of my sisters has taken control of all her personal and financial affairs. We are contacting her doctor tomorrow about the best course of treatment that can be provided to her to get her back on the straight and narrow.
    I understand if it is too much for people if I am commenting on this blog again, and as such if people don’t want to comment with me, I will get the message loud and clear. I am aware that a number of commentators suggested that I was a narc also, I can see where they might have gotten that idea, but I am a long term commentator on this blog and I have never insulted any other commentator on this blog, I along with other people have defended some commentators and I have also defended yourself alongside other commentators on this blog. But, if you feel that the ‘mark’ was overstepped HG, and you would prefer for the sake of other people’s feelings and reactions that I don’t comment on here anymore, I can understand that and I will not do so. Either way I will respect your decision HG.
    Thank you, HG.
    Best, DB.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are entitled to comment like anybody else DB, within the parameters of the rules and any additional stipulations that I may make to maintain order in this place.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        HG, I have not responded to any of her recent comments because I had hoped she would contact you by email to cover the matter privately rather than put it on various threads on the blog. Doing this by email would have offered some ways of sign-posting to support that the family need. Maybe the family ie the brother and DB herself (together) can do an audio consult with you to obtain your expertise and guidance to assisting with the issues they are currently experiencing.

        Having said that, it is good that they have taken some course of action, especially in relation to accounts / personal & financial affairs. It is also good that they are reaching out to communicate with the doctor, however, does the doctor know enough about narcissism to be able to help the patient in question? Is the doctor qualified enough to be able to advise / treat the patient who has narcissism and the added difficulties involving alcohol?

        Hence my suggestion of an audio consult with yourself with your experience and knowledge, and the recent occurrences, in my opinion, you are the best person to assist this family to moving forward. I understand that with the complexity of what the family have at present, it may require more than one consult, yet in the longer term it may well be worth the investment on their part.

        Once again, thank you for your time, HG.

        1. Duchessbea says:

          Asp Emp,
          Thank you for your comment.
          Best DB.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Duchessbea, from my being on KTN blog, having obtained what I needed to do for myself and achieving what I aimed to do for myself. I now can apply my logic to be able to offer support to others. I can also apply my own personal experiences, my understanding to your situation.

            I thought about the whole ‘matter’ and went through the emotions of it all too. Then I came to a decision. Hence the comment I sent directly to HG, with the hope that you would also see it too.

            I don’t know if you read my comment on the recent ‘The 10 Obligations of the Empath’. I wanted to reach out to you and I did, indirectly.

            Logically, it makes sense for you to consider what I suggested and communicate with HG (not to talk about the comments as such, but about the way forward for your situation at home, your family’s situation). Again, it is up to you how you wish to proceed with your situation within your family. You and your family matter more than what had been said previous to today’s comments.

            Do this for yourself, your family and in turn, everyone here on this blog (including HG) will feel we are continuing to do what we are all here for – not to allow narcissism to take over our lives (mentally or emotionally).

      2. Duchessbea says:

        HG,
        Thank you for your comment. I might take a short break from the blog, to let the dust settle a little bit after everything, and out of respect to other people.
        Thank you HG.
        Best, DB.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I see that it already has but it’s entirely a matter for you.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      DB

      I said nothing during these exchanges because there was a lot to process and some confusion, so I observed. You are not new here and I did not remember taking exception with your previous comments or them being of the tone in the recent comments that caused such offence, so it gave me pause. People can and do however change or go through phases while here so one can never be too sure. One thing is for sure – time tells. You have apologized, and my feeling is that if things are as you have explained about your sister and your heightened ET and are now back to normal, that will be reflected in your interactions going forward. For what it’s worth – I remain willing to interact presently while time reveals the circumstances and your explanation to be either borne out or disproven and your apologies genuine.

      NA

      1. Duchessbea says:

        NA,
        I can understand why you would view it like that. If I had not been involved in the thread, I too would have taken a very similar viewpoint whilst observing the interaction going on.
        Thank you for your comment.
        Best DB.

  2. Duchessbea says:

    Everyone,
    I am aware that there are two different threads running in the commentary section of this article. I am mainly referring to the people I commented with, but also if anyone from the other thread has read and was offended by comments posted under my username but not written by me, I apologise to each and everyone of you.
    Also, if I missed any comments that had been written on different articles and I have not apologised to people directly, I am apologising on behalf of my sister for any offence caused to you.
    Thank you.
    Best, DB.

    1. Eternity says:

      DB,
      I do feel bad for you if your sister ended commenting under your name. Narcissist have a way of getting into our information.
      I have had similar experiences in my past so I completely understand. Please don’t worry people who are on here are complete strangers so no need to worry . You have done more than your share by apologizing, and that is all is all you can do. You have done your part. Now go ahead and enjoy the rest of your day.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Eternity,
        Thank you for your lovely comment.
        Best, DB

        1. Eternity says:

          You are so welcome hun.

  3. Duchessbea says:

    TS & Asp Emp,
    I have read your latest comments on here and by all accounts that is a very kind and logical way to view them. I too would view them in the same way you have. I agree with everything you have said and in all fairness you approached the situation from the correct standpoint and I know if I had not been involved in that thread but was reading it as a bystander, I would have approached that thread from the same viewpoint.
    There was no need to think you were fuelling the fire with me, I was in a heightened state of ET both at anger at what my sister had done, and anger in seeing her in a vulnerable state and her telling me that you were all being verbally abusive towards her. I have had space and time to reflect since I last commented on here. My sister has now gone to stay with my eldest brother. To be honest, I couldn’t keep her in the house anymore. I just felt so let down by her. I just can’t trust her. Perhaps after she receives the help that she needs, perhaps I could be open again, but wary at the same time due to the fact that she has in a way betrayed my trust, but also the fact that she is a narc. As we all know, once a narc, always a narc.
    On reading the responses, the first time, I was very much in a heightened state of ET and wasn’t reading or looking at things from a logical stand point. It did come across like she was being attacked in the comments. But having had time to reflect and taken a bit of time out, I have had time to go back at look at everything she sent from the past few days last week and I now see that she was the one who was causing all the aggro and I also see that you were just responding to the manner in which she had written which is fully understandable.
    I had allowed her to use my computers in my house in good faith, but I didn’t stand over her to watch what she was doing. I never would have thought she would do something like that. Not least because she is my sister, but just out of sheer decency on the fact that she was staying in my house, and I told her to make herself at home and I gave her permission to use my computers. If it had been the other way around, I would never, ever do that to someone else. In a sense, I suppose some of my heightened ET was that I had felt awfully betrayed by my sister in what she had done. It portrayed me in a very bad light, and as I too am the same as you and other people on HG’s blog, I know what it feels like when someone behaves like that. It is not nice. I felt awfully let down by my sister.
    You are both and anyone else are fully in the right in not wanting to communicate with me again, but I just thought you should know the full story. I am the real DB.
    DB

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      DB,

      This has been a strange exercise for me. A real mix of instinct, cadres, schools and learning. What I have learned here on the blog facilitated my identifying the comments written by your sister as those of a narcissist. I was sure, but I’m not a fan of calling it for reasons stated in my previous comments.

      Then you yourself joined the thread. My instinctive reaction was that it was you, the real DB. I could tell the difference. Or, I believed I could tell the difference and spoke up to that effect.
      The problem is that your sister was commenting close to the times you were. I believed I could feel the difference between the two of you but I can’t swear to that, not online. The issue for me is not what your sister said, you can’t be held responsible for that and have no need to apologise for her. The issue for me is are you and ‘your sister’ one person?

      How many articles have we read about the various faces of the narcissist? “More faces than a town hall clock”. They shift, change, mirror, project and deflect. They provoke, charm, pity play, triangulate and withdraw. My ensnarement was online. Demonstrably my instincts were of absolutely no use to me there. I called it right with the online narc to begin with. I did see. Then I gave benefit of the doubt and kept doing so, I could never get a clear picture. It was constantly changing. So for me, in all honesty it’s very difficult to see this situation clearly. Online is my biggest weakness. I am well aware of that.

      You do sound and feel like you though DB. Now you do. Today. As well as a few times previously. Instinctively I believe you. Logically I have been taught not to. Perfect! Clear as mud then!

      I feel for you in the situation you are in. To see comments like that under your name must be awful. To try to explain and get people to understand that this is you again, the real DB, must be incredibly frustrating.

      This place is a support you likely need, especially given the situation with your sister. I think you should remain on the blog and continue to comment.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        TS,
        Thank you for your kind comment. I do have a twin sister, it wasn’t her, it was one of my older sisters.
        I might take a break for a little while from the blog. This was a hard lesson to learn and I think the sense of betrayal after I treated her very well in my home, is the hardest thing to accept.
        Many thanks again for your comment.
        Best, DB.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          DB,

          It’s only normal that you would expect your sister to respect your privacy. You were offering use of your home and trying to help her. The assumption is that this would be recognised, appreciated and respected. We assume others will behave as we would and it’s very sad when this isn’t the case.

          There is no recognition or genuine gratitude from a narcissist. Even one who is a sibling. That’s not your fault. You feel betrayed because betrayal of trust is exactly what did occur. You are a kind hearted person and deserve to be treated with respect. Use the blog and the materials available here to ensure you are not betrayed again.

          1. Duchessbea says:

            TS,
            That is a very kind comment.
            Thank you.
            Best, DB.

  4. Duchessbea says:

    HG,
    I feel it is best that I turn off from the blog. People are getting the impression that I am attacking them when I am not. I would never do that. I never came onto this blog site to do that. I came to learn like everyone else.
    My ET is heightened because of everything going on with my sister and I’m worried about her.
    I want to thank you for your advice and assistance.
    Thank you HG.
    DB.

    1. MP says:

      Hello DB,

      I just want to say that I admit at first I was wondering if you have a multiple personality disorder. But now I think I believe you. I can see my mom doing that to me and think it’s the most hilarious thing she has ever done. Especially if my mom have been seeing me listen to HG’s videos etc. I am sorry about your experience. You do sound different than your sister. And I know this whole thing is extremely frustrating. I can’t even begin to think how I would be able to handle that is I was you. Hopefully things get better for your family and wishing you well. Take care.

  5. Duchessbea says:

    HG, thank you for your email. I could send you an email privately and explain the whole situation but to do so, considering the messages I have read so far, is like running away and trying to hide. I have nothing to hide from and as such, as my sister used my Username and not her own in doing what she did, I feel it is only fair to respond on the public forum.
    I am highly disgusted at the behaviour of my sister, and the fact that she did what she did using my Username. I don’t condone what she did at all. There is no excuse for what she did, but I think I should make you and everyone else aware of most of the facts.
    My sister is a Lower Mid Ranger. She and I are pleasant to one another attending family occasions, being sisters but other than that, we have nothing in common and if we were not sisters, we would not associate with one another.
    My sister has been married for the last number of years. She and the other half (most definitely an Upper Lesser) always portrayed themselves as the Mr. & Mrs. Perfect. The Perfect Couple. Anyway, to cut a long story short, with all the lockdowns that we have had, she found out that he had been having an affair with her best friend behind her back. When she confronted him about this, he kicked her out of the house, and she is currently sofa surfing between mine and my siblings houses. She has been lashing out at everybody. Her tongue is sharper than a razor and her words are vicious. They are currently going through a very acrimonious divorce. I could go on, but I think you get the gist.
    I don’t in any way condone what she did. I have made it very clear to her that it was unacceptable what she did, and the divorce is not an excuse to do what she did. The response I got, I will not repeat here. It was actually my sister after she drank a vineyard dry yesterday, that informed me as to what she had done. Otherwise, I would still be non the wiser and she would still be posting comments here, there and everywhere and using my handle name in doing so. I am very annoyed by the fact that she used my handle name to do what she did. I have spent most of last night and today, apologising to a number of people on various different sites about the comments that were made by her using my handle name.
    She is currently halfway through yet another vineyard tonight, her behaviour is off the wall even for her. I know she is in a lot of pain and I understand that, and she is lashing out at everyone because of it. She cannot accept or handle having found out what she did, and going through the divorce with a complete bastard, Each day she seems to be getting worse. This was the final straw for me. I have called a family meeting this weekend because an intervention is very much needed.
    DB

    1. Another Cat says:

      DB
      Reading this thread, I haven’t even seen the other one, I do not envy your situation. To say the least. When they lose their primary source, either through divorce or death, some become hellish vitriol for months.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Another Cat,
        Thank you for your kind comment. It is very true what you say. They also don’t listen to reason or want to accept any help you try to give. But hopefully with all my siblings this evening, she will have to listen to what we all say. It is not going to be easy but she needs a helping hand to help her get back on her feet. She is my sister and we will do everything we can to make sure she is okay.

        1. Another Cat says:

          I’m not sure I understand why you used that tone towards TS, and it doesn’t seem like you’re going to respond to HG’s email? All communication with you ends here from me too.

          1. Another Cat says:

            DB

            But if it is the case that another person (your sister) wrote those comments in your name, then I am really sorry about your situation, and also relieved that your brother is now taking over so she stays with him for a while. All the best to you and family.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Duchessbea,

      Duchessbea, HG has requested email clarification for a reason. Please follow any directions he has given to you.

      Is your email secure? If so think about past communications you might have had with HG and reference them in your email. Or, if possible reply to him via these old emails. I suggest that you also inform HG as to the account name used by your sister. As moderator on this blog HG should be offered the courtesy of being made aware of this so that he can take his own view and any action he deems necessary. Your sister has violated your privacy and should understand that this has consequences.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        TS,
        I will look after my sister in the best way I know how, as she is currently not thinking clearly and is all over the place and literally gone off the rails. She is currently in a lot of pain and anguish with what is going on in her personal life. Yes, she is a mid ranger, but she is still human and can’t handle being betrayed by both her ex and so called best friend. I am not about to hang my sister out to dry for your or anyone else’s amusement.
        People go through things in life, and when they are at breaking point they can do things that usually they would not do. As she has so much upheaval going on in her life, I am not about to add to it. Her health and wellbeing is more important to me. My siblings and I are trying to help her as best we can. This evening we are having an intervention with her. I don’t think it will go well. But she has spent far to much of this year drinking herself into oblivion. We have told her she needs to watch her drinking, but it is just getting worse and is not good for her. She needs some kind of treatment preferably for alcohol and to help with dealing with her personal life. We are going to try to get her into a rehab. Her ex is making her life a living hell with the divorce and it is not a nice situation for her to have to deal with. She is dealing with it the best way she knows, but drowning her sorrows everynight and lashing out at people is not helping.
        Everybody goes through things in their life. Some people can handle things, other people can’t. TS, if you can message me back and tell me that you are perfect and have never done anything stupid or wrong in your life then we can discuss this further.
        DB

        1. Another Cat says:

          DB
          A good idea is to respond to HG’s email he sent you,

          trolling someone else’s account, like your sister apparently did, is very serious. I agree with TS on that part.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Duchessbea,

          Thank you for your response. No I am not perfect. Far from it.

          I did not ask you to hang your sister out to dry here on the blog for all to see, or for my amusement. I asked you to email HG with her user name so that he could review this privately and take any action he deemed necessary.

          You have stated that your sister is a narcissist and is using this blog as a means to hone her skills. By definition then she is not using this blog as a means of support in any way. Therefore, the loss of the blog would make no difference to her whatsoever. It would benefit you to reveal her identity to HG if your own identity had been taken as you claim. It would benefit the other readers here not to be subjected to her comments.

          My request was phrased very carefully. A narcissist would view it as a threat to control. An empath would view it as a means to resolve the situation. I did this purposely for my own peace of mind. You have responded as a narcissist would by rejecting it and turning the tables in my direction.

          I assume you have also rejected HG’s offer to communicate privately via email to resolve the situation.

          I have learned something here so many thanks for that. When I say ‘Understood’, I should stick to ‘Understood.’

          There will be no further interaction between myself and Duchessbea in any guise she might take on the Narcsite blog.

          1. BC30 says:

            *Super like*

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            BC30

            I super like you too.
            Apart from when you are armed with a pool noodle.
            Then I’m a bit scared.

          3. BC30 says:

            haha 😁

          4. Leigh says:

            👍👍👍👍

          5. Violetta says:

            What has BC30 done with pool noodles?

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Violetta,

            Weaponised them! 😱

            If she does it. Suggest deluxe flamingo.

          7. Violetta says:

            Truthseeker6157:

            I prefer Doc Martens at 10 paces.

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Violetta,

            Ahhh, ‘bother girl’ boots!

      2. Asp Emp says:

        Thanks, TS, for that. I trust that HG will do whatever is right for all concerned. Chat with you soon x

        1. BC30 says:

          *Super like*

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you 🙂

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Asp,

          Yes, most definitely, chat soon xx.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, hope you’re ok x

  6. NarcAngel says:

    “Some people have a tendency to accuse people of narcissism prematurely. It can be traumatic for someone who has already gone through so much verbal abuse in life and went here to learn and understand what they experienced in life.”

    Yes, it can be damaging, we have seen it before, and we would do well to remember that it should not be contingent upon our feeling of either kinship with the person making the accusation, or coloured by one’s feeling of the recipients deservedness because of previous personal interactions and/or perceptions of that person. Being annoyed by or not liking someone’s comments on here will see us having opinion, but does not give us the right or expertise to affix such a damaging label. Nor do we have to uphold it because of any admiration for the accuser or prejudice against the recipient.

    1. Duchessbea says:

      NarcAngel, I very much agree.

    2. MP says:

      Hello NA, if you are referring to the past where I defended an accuser from receiving what I felt was an extreme attack by many commenters defending the one being accused, I stand by my actions. There are information about the accused person that you don’t know and only I have personally experienced since I accepted her reaching out to be my friend outside of this blog. FM1T talks about masks slipping out, let’s just say I had a similar experience although I am not confident enough to say it’s narcissism, it was enough for me to see a strong pattern in my personal interactions with the accused. HG was not aware of it at that time because I didn’t know that I could have brought it up to his attention. But I gave him evidence that I have outside of this blog and he has been respectful about it.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        MP
        There are other instances of this happening besides the one you refer to, but your perception here is that people were defending the accused when the exception taken by many was that the accuser was not felt qualified or entitled to arbitrarily assign that label due to their merely being annoyed by the accused’s comments and conduct on the blog. It became apparent through comments there that there had been contact outside of the blog between you (that HG strictly warned against on many occasions and this is a good example of why). You say here that the title should not be used prematurely (it was in that case) and that it can be traumatic. I agree. Yet you aligned yourself with the accuser (you said you admired their honesty) because of your personal and negative experience with the accused. You have admitted elsewhere that you liked a comment that you didn’t agree with (narcissism being brilliant) because that person had been nice to you. My feeling is that allegiance should not enter into an opinion given.

        In any case – it is a good reminder to heed HG’s warning that people not interact outside of the blog.

      2. MP says:

        Also NA, I did not make the accusation nor upheld it. All that I did was defend the accuser from a very harsh attack from several people as I don’t enjoy seeing anyone outnumbered and viciously dehumanized. Especially when I recognize that the evidence she presented on red flags and patterns are so true. Especially since I have had my own experience with the accused where she behaved in an unacceptable manner when I didn’t do anything to her. I am not explaining this to convince you since you already made up your mind and you don’t care about the truth. HG has my evidence and he knows what happened and that’s why I can still comment here. I am explaining it to anyone who might be influenced by your misrepresentation of me.

      3. lickemtomorrow says:

        All the alarm bells are ringing for me now.

        “Information about the accused person that you don’t know and only I have personally experienced since I accepted her reaching out to be my friend outside of this blog” – that sounds like manipulation to me.

        Would you have defended this person if she hadn’t taken you aside the way she has done? Why did she reach out to you specifically? Did she have a reason for doing that? Have your attitudes to other posters changed since this has happened? If so, why? Since it feels like we’re in a Court of Law (with accusers and accused), it seems an ideal time to start asking a few questions about this commenter, and what their intentions might be.

        I see NA has commented on a warning HG has given around contact outside of the blog. I wasn’t fully aware of that, but it makes sense.

        If you are a ‘target’ and if you are being manipulated, now is the time to find out, MP.

        1. MP says:

          Hello LET,

          I understand your curiosity. HG has already handled the manner. Basically a bunch of us were following HG elsewhere and I was contacted by the accused commenter who offered friendship to me. I was very happy and flattered and we connected through Facebook and exchanged phone numbers. Then things eventually didn’t turn out well. I feel bad that HG has to clean up the mess that we caused for not adhering to his advice. I don’t really know how much more I can share. I am not open to getting to know other people in the blog after that and also have been trying to be less friendly/transparent with my comments to people (as much as a Geyser can). But in the end no real harm was done to me except feeling threatened for a little bit and wondering if I should ask our local Bishop if there’s a lawyer in our church. The threat didn’t materialize because I didn’t do anything wrong and so the accused person could not possibly carry out the threat she made against me.

          1. Violetta says:

            MP:

            I don’t blame you for being tempted; I’ve often wished I could meet various Tudorites for shopping, horseback-riding, puppy/kitten-cuddling, and of course, drinking (preferably in the Haworth pub where Branwell destroyed his liver).

            In addition to friendships possibly turning sour, there’s always the danger that information might get revealed, accidentally or otherwise, to a stalker ex. As Narcsite gains publicity (I’ve seen it mentioned in more than one blog covering the RF), the likelihood increases that someone might deliberately send a lieutenant here to try to suss out an escaped ex.

            But again, I understand the temptation.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            The rule against exchanging information here is a sound one and will never be changed. The clear instruction not to interact off blog is also made for the soundest of reasons. Every time people have failed to follow this instruction, it has resulted in problems for them and others. The emails I receive bear testament to that and they are detailed. I know my kind. Pay heed.

          3. Witch says:

            @violetta

            Yes I understand the temptation too…
            I have no one else in my personal life who is obsessed with narcissism.
            so it can come across like I think “everyone” is a narcissist to people who do not understand narcissism. Even when it comes to people attributing certain behaviours to other things besides narcissism.
            This guy said online that catcalling could be rooted in male biology… I said no, cat calling is a boundary violation and is rooted in narcissism and narcissistic traits.
            I see things very differently now because of what I have learned about narcissism.

            I also understand why it is a risk to interact outside of the blog
            And I’m sorry to hear that MP was threatened by someone who used to frequently interact here.

          4. MP says:

            Thank you Witch and Violetta. For me the blog was like a Twilight zone world where people here know about my past that most people in my real life don’t or didn’t know. I never confided in anyone throughout my childhood about my experiences with my mom because I didn’t think anyone would really understand and I also didn’t want to throw my own mom under the bus even though majority of people who got to know us more knew that my mom was different and even abusive to me. My culture also allows parents a lot of allowance to behave in a very dominant way towards their children. I don’t go around telling people in my present life about the hardships I had in my life because that was never the energy I want our interactions to be. This blog has been like a Twilight zone world where I am able to share things about myself no one else know so I was attached in a way towards the commenters here and I just have to remember this isn’t the real world. Last night we went to a fundraiser dinner which was the first social gathering we went to since the pandemic. Everyone was so nice and pleasant but I was thinking, it’s such a good feeling to be around them but I have no idea about their life or past or whatever situation they have been through or are going through and yet these are the faces that really genuinely make me feel not alone. These are the people that are really part of my life. And sometimes it is healthy to put that kind of boundary between real life and social media life.

          5. JB says:

            Gosh, MP, that must have been scary! I can also understand the temptation to take things offline. There have been many, many times that I have wished the rules were different, but on reflection, I’m actually glad they aren’t. Many of us here have suffered as a result of online interaction with a narcissist, and what I love about this place is that that shouldn’t happen here. I love the anonymity. We can offload and share our experiences, without anyone ever knowing who we are outside of the blog (I find it much easier to open up on certain things, knowing that.) The only problem is, though, any narcissist coming here could use that anonymity to lie through their teeth and then mislead you into God knows what offline! Anyway, I hope you are ok, and am glad nothing major came of it in the end x

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Hence why you do not take matters offline.

          7. MP says:

            Thank you. Just like what HG has taught us in some of his articles. Narcissists love social media because they can create their persona or whatever much easily without much accountability etc. How can we even know if the stories shared are really true? In real life fore example, I go to church and I see someone and I form an opinion on how they carry themselves and then my husband shares a history about the person if that person is nice or a crook and then I get more corroborating info from other people and from all of those I can form an opinion. Online you get judge on how you are able to connect with the people but it doesn’t mean that people really care about you. Some do and some don’t. It’s not always easy to differentiate it. I’m glad nothing like that happened to you. Take care!

          8. JB says:

            MP, I’m not sure if your comment was meant as a reply to mine or not, but I will reply in case it is.

            Yes, online is a tough one as there is so little to go on, compared with real life, as you said. And also the written word is very much open to misinterpretation, which can also lead us to build up a possibly false picture of the person with whom we are communicating! I often rely on feeling, getting a sense of someone, but don’t trust it as much now. I haven’t been threatened by anyone online (thank God), but I have been taken in by somebody online, I came to trust them and they turned out to be a liar. I didn’t see it coming at all, I genuinely thought I was a better judge of character, and it threw me completely that I could get it so wrong. It did give me a kick up the arse though, taught me to practise what I preach – we spend so much time educating kids on the dangers of online interactions, then go and ignore the rules ourselves because we think we are ok, we know what we are doing, etc. But in the end, it could happen to any of us, and we are only human, I guess. But lesson learned here and regularly shared with anyone who will listen! X

          9. MP says:

            Sorry that happened to you JB. You are right about practicing the precautions that we expect kids to have as adults. I also had a discussion with my husband on this issue and I agree with what he said. Online allows people to create an illusion and it’s not reality. Sometimes we can meet genuine people but the most of the time the real friends are the ones that are really part of your life. It’s weird when you meet someone online and then texts you all day nonstop when you haven’t even seen them in person. My real life friends don’t even text me all day or first thing in the morning to say good morning because they have their own lives too and yet they are stable and consistently there through the years.

        2. MP says:

          Hello Lickemtomorrow, I understand your curiosity. HG has already fixed the matter. I don’t think that you have met the commenter I was referring to. But basically HG doesn’t recommend that we make a connection with commenters from the blog outside of it. And it’s for our protection. I’ll be taking a little break from the blog. I hope you the best for your learning journey and thanks for our interactions.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi MP, thank you for clarifying a little more around the situation which sounds like it could have become much more serious for you. Rather than prying, I just wanted to raise my concerns for you, and also the impact it might have had on the blog. I’m glad it has been resolved to everyone’s satisfaction, and thank you for reminding me of HGs protection which he institutes to followers and commentors on the blog. That is very reassuring. Especially after concerns which have been raised again (over identities and intentions) over the last couple of days. It is a good idea to follow HGs recommendations, and it’s also hard not to respond to someone reaching out to you. I understand it’s only out of a desire to do what empaths do that we accept such invitations and I have no doubt your heart was in the right place, MP. The problem comes when someone else’s heart isn’t. That being said, I see you have decided to take a break 🙁 I have thoroughly enjoyed our interactions here, and have learned so much from you. Thank you, too, for all you have shared up to now which helps us all, and I appreciate your well wishes. You have a beautiful family to enjoy and hopefully a lovely summer to look forward to as well. As it’s just a little break, I will look forward to seeing you again, and hope for continuing good news in terms of your healing journey <3 xox

          2. MP says:

            Thank you Lickemtomorrow. You have always been very kind and I always enjoy reading your thoughts and experiences. Thank you for being patient when we disagree. I am thankful for our interactions and I just want to say that you are a good mom and thank you for the pieces of advice and assurance you kindly gave me. ❤️❤️❤️

          3. NarcAngel says:

            MP

            Despite how it may seem from out interactions and your feelings about them and me, I do wish you and your family the very best and hope that you continue to stay safe.

            NA

          4. MP says:

            NA,

            I just saw this message and even though I said I am on a break I just want to say something about your well wishes.

            What would have been genuinely kind is for you to just retract your false accusation that I was here in the blog arguing while my mom was dying. I have said it so many times that it wasn’t true. I went to my home country alone to take care of her, left my husband and kids here in the US, didn’t meet with any friends out of fear I might spread them TB, and I was the only person who took care of her while I was there to give my cousins a break. There was no internet at her house and I was not even able to Skype with my husband and kids in some days because the only way I got internet connection was when I was doing laundry at the laundromat inside the mall that provided free WiFi. The only time I went active in the blog again was a few days after my mom already died. I was at the funeral and was trying to avoid painful thoughts so I decided to actively comment on the TV show that HG was having people analyze because I needed a distraction. When you tell me with so much conviction in a public forum that I was too busy arguing here while my mom was dying and that people told me to take care of my mom which never happened because she was already dead, I cannot even fully describe how wrong that is. Now people here believe that I have let my mom die because I was too busy arguing in the blog. How can you even wish me well after doing that and without even retracting that and insisting that you were right and I was wrong about what happened. I would never prioritize going on the internet over taking care of a dying person, let alone my own mother. So unless you retract that, I don’t regard your well wishes as sincere.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            MP, I wanted to say that I am sorry to read that you lost your mom. Take care x

        3. MP says:

          Hello LET, I have reread your comment and want to clarify a few things:

          * the accused person was not the one I defended. I defended the one making the accusation by identifying red flags.

          * the person I defended didn’t change my attitude towards the blog.

          I am uncomfortable identifying the accused person and I am also in NC with her so I didn’t want to use her name. But you don’t have anything to worry about because HG has been protecting commenters in the blog and we just have to listen to his recommendation to not connect outside of here.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            MP

            Let me state this clearly for you and for everyone:

            I do not believe it to be the case and did not state that you did not care for your mother and ignored her to be on the blog. That is your (incorrect) interpretation.

            The references (and notes of concern from others as well) were in regard to you being on the blog and actively engaging in highly emotional exchanges that were upsetting to you during your PERIOD OF GRIEF, which can encompass a period of time other than the immediate death.

            These are some of your comments and attest to the fact that you were active and continued to pursue blog discussion that upset you during your PERIOD OF GRIEF and NOT that you were neglecting your mother’s care. They indicate effort to stay involved when was not required of you – you chose to participate. Someone other than me even commented to you that they couldn’t imagine giving a crap about being on a blog when their mother died.

            “I am in a Taiwan airport right now on my way home”

            “Oh and before I get accused of lying. I did say earlier that I might not have internet because I’m travelling but the bus I’m on has WiFi that’s why I’m able to reply”

            “I was gone because I was visiting house to house and WiFi is scarce here”

            “I ought now I’m staying with my cousins that I haven’t seen since we were children and I’m here in the bedroom typing this instead of being with them in the dining room right now where I can hear them chat”

            “I just got home from a very long flight and drive. I was exhausted and my kids are all over me so I don’t have time to check in til now. I sent a quick reply earlier as well”.

            These all appear to indicate you felt some sort of urgency or priority to stay active on the blog, so later on a different thread when you approached it as people not standing up for you and being mean to you etc, I thought that untrue and unfair and regarded it as playing victim in that moment because it was your choice to be there. Thus my comment that you could have got off the blog.

            You interpreted “when your mother was dying” as during her immediate care and death. I was not. I was referring to the period of grieving. My apology for not using the term period of grieving. The phrase did not come to me in that moment. I did not think for a minute that you (or anyone on the blog) would interpret the words: when your mother was dying as me indicating that you were furiously keying away on a blog at your mother’s deathbed and ignoring her needs. Anyone who thinks that has cherry picked and not considered the aggregate of my comments.

            I will say it again:

            I do NOT believe that you did not care for your dying mother or attend to her needs.

            I hope this clears up things and ends this for you (and anyone else looking on) so that neither of us are misrepresented moving forward. I stand by my genuine wishes for you and your family whether you accept them or not.

            NA

    3. MP says:

      NA, All that I can say is that you are entitled to your personal truth. I am as well and my experience with that person was very toxic and the only reason I have sent HG evidence was because another commenter had an experience and he wanted to gather evidence to protect commenters here. It’s unfair to me that you misrepresent my reasoning as just mere annoyance with the accuser. You don’t know a lot of the important information. If you do not trust me, just stop interacting with me. But do not gaslight my experience. Just like you never apologized for misrepresenting how I spent my time with my dying mom which I actually think is very cruel. You have been very judgmental towards me. All I can say was that you were never there in my mom’s house with me in my home country taking care of her all night because she couldn’t breathe and sleep because of her TB. There wasn’t even internet in her house and yet you made the judgment that I didn’t take care of her because I was here on this blog instead of taking care of her. You can’t always unequivocally assume that your judgments are always correct.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        MP

        “It’s unfair to me that you misrepresent my reasoning as just mere annoyance with the accuser. ”

        I didn’t say that. I said the accuser (not you) was not entitled to label someone a dangerous narcissist when THEY (again – not you as were not the accuser) were really just annoyed with the comments of the accused. The accuser then went out of their way to dehumanize others (calling them garbage etc). You offered them not outrage but admiration. If you were to be honest – you were happy to align yourself with the accuser because she was attacking someone you had a personal issue with and not because they needed defending (against the very same behaviours they were dishing out).

        I never apologized to you for misrepresenting how you spent your time with your dying mom because that did not happen. That is a gross misrepresentation and presented completely out of context to what happened. You were urged by others to stick to what was important in attending to your mom and to disregard the things that were upsetting you at that time on the blog. It was out of concern for you, but you remained actively (and prolifically) commenting. Later you referred to these things upsetting you at a time when your mom was dying. I pointed out to you that you chose to ignore the concern and remain embroiled in highly emotional and heated exchanges, so it didn’t seem fair to present as victim afterword. It was your choice. And you’re doing it again here to garner sympathy and misrepresent ME and what actually happened.

        You have a history on the blog of misinterpretation not only with me, but especially where I am concerned. You almost automatically assume what I say to be negative because you appear to base the message on who said it rather than what was actually said.( An example being offering admiration for name calling from one individual but labelling it vicious dehumanization from others). I have offered positivity to you and your family also, (was heartfelt in offering my condolence on your mother’s death, was genuinely happy for you and expressed it when your family got your puppy, complimented your husband’s handling of his ex, are but a few examples), but you conveniently forget those interactions and latch onto those you incorrectly interpret (btw- incorrectly interpreting something on your part does not equate to me gaslighting you) and then misrepresent me to others as uncaring and cruel. They can make up their own minds.

        Don’t want to interact? Fine by me. I won’t miss having to break down for you where you’ve jumped to conclusions yet again due to your missing the message and focusing on the messenger.

        1. MP says:

          This is part of what you wrote to me in that thread:

          “ Poor me, no one stood up for me (untrue), poor me, my mother died when I was arguing about it (well stop arguing and leave the blog), poor me, ”

          I was not arguing in the blog while my mom was dying. What you wrote implied that my mom died under my care while I was too busy arguing in the blog which was not accurate and I have explained it so many times to you but you have no empathy.

          I don’t need anyone’s pity. I wa a just pointing out how callous you can be to a few of us. That is why I understood WiserNow’s adverse reaction to you because I also saw how you treated her through the years. I don’t need to prove anything to you as I really don’t care anymore what you think about me. If I was the kind of person who always strive to be pitied my husband would not be with me right now because that is what he hated the most about my MR sister, and that’s one of the reasons I categorize him as a Normal because he doesn’t tolerate people feeling like victims.

          I don’t care about your perception of my history in the blog. I have my opinions on your history here too but I don’t care to spend time articulating it because quite honestly you have no meaning to me.

          Have a good life.

          1. WiserNow says:

            MP and NarcAngel,

            MP,
            Well said. I agree with your comments. While I respect NarcAngel and I agree with her comments sometimes, I also find she jumps to conclusions and has a ‘black and white’ way of looking at things. There are times when it has been more of a ‘battle’ than a ‘debate’ when trying to ‘converse’ with her.

            I am agreeing with you here because I actually know what it’s like to have parents who are narcissists and who are unwell and elderly. The option of ‘no contact’ is either very difficult or impossible.

            It is a difficult situation because you are very aware they need your care and support, and at the same time you are also aware that they are slowly hijacking your life and abusing you in the process. The fact remains that they are your parent and you *still* feel empathy for them and cannot walk away, not only because you know they need you and not only because you ask yourself how you’ll live with yourself and your conscience if you don’t support them. It’s also because they are your family and you love them regardless. Love does exist and it’s not just because you are a ‘love devotee’. There is a bond and it’s real.

            Having a narc parent is not an easy thing to live with. It is very difficult and takes all of your patience and goodwill sometimes, even though you are complaining through clenched teeth on the inside, asking yourself things like, “does my resentment mean I’m narcissistic myself?”…. “if I do this, they’ll only get comfortable with manipulating me even more” …. “if I don’t do this, they will feel lost and alone” …. “what should I do?”.

            Coming to this blog and ‘venting’ or talking about it or commenting in certain ways *does not* mean that you are seeking pity or playing the victim or not learning about what HG is telling us. Sometimes, this blog is the only place to say what you truly mean and to try to unravel all the internal contradictions and questions you have.

            In many articles and recommendations I have seen about recovering from ptsd and narc abuse, the advice is: seek ongoing reliable support from someone you can trust who will understand and validate your experience.

            Not every ACON has someone they can trust unconditionally to speak with complete honesty about all the conflicting things they have going on with them. Sometimes this blog and the information from the commenters here does this for us.

            Does that mean we can be labelled as ‘victims’ or as though we are seeking ‘pity’? No. It means we are working through things that are difficult that we haven’t been able to work through effectively anywhere else.

            When I have had romantic partners, friends or relationships with narcissists, it has been relatively easier (not easy or straightforward – just easier) to decide to go ‘no contact’. It’s still difficult and leaves the emotional impact, however, there is not the same ‘obligation’ as having an elderly or unwell parent.

            Does this negate or contradict HG’s advice? No, it doesn’t. HG informs us in a practical and effective way about things that actually work in real life. He gives us clarity and defines things in a way that makes it absolutely clear.

            The thing with real life is that real situations are messy and unclear and take time to change and evolve. Parents who were born during depressions or wars, who lived through strife and poverty, who needed to migrate to different countries, or who lived through abusive family situations themselves – these are all things we have to deal with as ACONS.

            We need to learn how to deal with them effectively and that is what we are doing here when we learn from HG and from the comments of others.

          2. MP says:

            Hello WiserNow, thank you for your message. I agree. I hope that you have a wonderful weekend. I will be taking a break. Don’t let anything rattle you or take peace from you. Coincidentally in spite of my day starting off not in a positive way, it ended up nicely as each member of our family won a raffle prize. It has never happened to us before. Like I said, there’s real life and social media life. People behave in a terrible way in social media and can get ten thousand likes from their fans but have that same person behave that way in real life and they wouldn’t get approval. I think that erosion of empathy is not an excuse to be a complete jackass to anyone. And no one should be shamed for the way they handled their grief. It’s just a really jackass move that a person with empathy wouldn’t do even to someone they dislike. It’s so easy to do that through social media but I bet these people wouldn’t have any guts telling my husband or my relatives who were there with me at the funeral that I wasn’t affected by my mom’s death or that I should have grieved a certain way that she approves or that my grief was not genuine. So I learned to just take the things in social media like a grain of salt. Take care WiserNow and thank you for our interactions and also for being calm with our debates even though I can get heated with arguments you pull back and accommodate and so I do the same thing so we have had disagreements but we never disrespected each other. ❤️❤️❤️

          3. WiserNow says:

            Hi MP,

            You’re welcome and thank you also. I appreciate our interactions too. I have found your comments to be honest as well as level-headed and open-minded. It’s been a pleasure to interact with you 🙂

            Congratulations on winning the raffle prizes. That’s a positive way to end the weekend. I hope you have a lovely weekend too and also an enjoyable week ahead. Stay peaceful and calm too MP and please feel free and welcome to return and keep commenting here. Best wishes to you and your whole family ❤️❤️❤️

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Good of you to allow MP to return and comment on my blog.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Ooh, HG. Quite right too, Sir 🙂

          6. WiserNow says:

            HG,

            Since you have graciously reassured NarcAngel by saying you don’t regard her “conduct as being problematic to the integrity of the blog” and said she was welcome to “continue to comment as you have”. . .

            . . . it seems reasonable to me that you would also welcome both MP and myself to do the same, since our conduct has been respectful of you and your blog and ultimately has not proved “problematic to the integrity of the blog” either, over and above what NarcAngel has said or done.

            While I realise this is ‘your blog’, are you saying each individual must measure every sentence they utter according to whether it will meet with your approval before they feel able to say it? That’s a little discriminatory, don’t you think? I have seen comments that are much more blatantly ‘disrespectful’ of both you and the blog.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            WiserNow,

            Well done, you managed to breach the agreement in less than 24 hours and one comment later.

            1. NA asked a specific question because she was concerned, after what I had written with regard to her style of commenting, that she might be putting newcomers off. I confirmed that this was not an issue. She asked a question, I answered it. That does not mean I then I have to write the same thing to you.
            2. “t seems reasonable to me that you would also welcome both MP and myself to do the same, since our conduct has been respectful of you and your blog and ultimately has not proved “problematic to the integrity of the blog” either, over and above what NarcAngel has said or done.” Why not re-read what I wrote to you earlier, here I will repeat it for you

            “To put and end to this therefore neither of you should comment to one another or about one another directly or indirectly.I am going to give you both a chance to adhere to this voluntarily. If this cannot be done, I will then enforce it through automatic removal of offending comments. No reply is required from either of you to my comment as I have made it very clear what is expected of you both. Do both feel free to comment on other matters as you wish, within the ambit of the rules.”

            I will make it even clearer because evidently you missed it in your rush to once again try to point score.

            DO BOTH FEEL FREE TO COMMENT ON OTHER MATTERS AS YOU WISH, WITHIN THE AMBIT OF THE RULES.

            That is both, meaning both YOU and NA.

            3. “While I realise this is ‘your blog’, are you saying each individual must measure every sentence they utter according to whether it will meet with your approval before they feel able to say it? That’s a little discriminatory, don’t you think? I have seen comments that are much more blatantly ‘disrespectful’ of both you and the blog.”
            No, that has never been stated by me. That is your erroneous reading into the situation. Indeed you contradict your own argument because since you identify that you have seen comments that are much more blatantly disrespectful of both me and the blog, it stands to reason that there is not such diktat that individuals must measure every sentence according to whether it will meet with your approval.

          8. WiserNow says:

            . . . and by the way HG,

            I am well-aware of the ‘agreement’ in place which I have accepted.

            Before you or anyone else accuses me of anything, my comment here and directly prior to this are the last times I shall refer to a certain person either directly or indirectly 🤐

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Ah, the last time until the next time. Understood.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            Sublime, HG, sublime.

          11. MP says:

            Thank you WiserNow! I have the pictures of my kids with the prizes on my IG and SP can see it because she’s there. Thankfully the other connections I made are still good but I don’t know most of their real names and I prefer it that way so I never ask or initiate. Although I didn’t mind when some revealed it either. I have been super transparent which is not a wise way to be and I have been changing that now.

            Anyways, the prizes we got are pretty funny. My husband and son got two garbage cans and I got a lawn game (tick tack toss) and my daughter got tickets to play golf which nobody in our family knows how to. My friend’s husband has volunteered to go with us and teach us golf. He said he has been playing for three years now and he’s pretty bad at it but we will still have fun. So good luck to us!
            Thank you again and best wishes to you too! ❤️❤️❤️

          12. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome MP. The prizes sound cute. The golf tickets will be a fun day out for you all. I have tried playing golf a few times. It takes time and lots of practice. I found just hitting the ball properly was difficult. Mini-golf is more my game 😉

            It would be lovely to see your kids with their prizes. They both sound adorable and very cute. I know what you mean about making connections outside of the blog. I don’t know or communicate with anyone here in ‘real life’. I’m not on IG either. Time-wise, I can keep up with only so much social media before I lose track of what’s happening and notifications.

            In relation to you being super transparent, there are narcs (or narcissistic people) everywhere, here on narcsite and on other social media. They’re probably lurking and waiting for opportunities to manipulate and get fuel. Sometimes, the only way to learn a ‘lesson’ about how they operate is to actually become ‘involved’ in the first place in some way. As long as you can spot it early enough, you can see what you need to change so you know how to protect yourself. So, don’t feel bad about that or about being ‘transparent’. Being honest, friendly and trusting are lovely personal traits to have. It’s just that those traits are preyed on by narcs. Awareness is key.

            Raising kids and home-schooling is a big responsibility and the last couple of years have been more stressful than usual with the pandemic and other things. You are doing very well and you are also a peaceful and wise presence here on the blog too. Thank you for your comments and friendliness. Our conversations have been a big welcome change to me in contrast to some of the ‘discussions’ I’ve been involved with here lately.

            Have a lovely time playing golf and using the other prizes! 🙂 ❤️ xx

          13. MP says:

            Dearest WiserNow,
            Weekend was wonderful. I have decided I will not take a break but will not post as much. I’m interested in the current trilogy here.

            Hopefully your weekend was nice too. Sometimes when things just go on circles and it’s more important for some people to win there’s no point. Like what HG said, words are easy for narcissists to use.
            Also, bullies have lots of friends and they run in packs. But the friendships are not for making real connections but for obtaining power. For me my two close friends in real life here in the US is all I need because the dynamic is healthy. Online friendships are rarely genuine unless there has already been an established friendship from real life. Online life is so full of illusions.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Ohhhh the okey cokey, ohhhh the okey cokey!

        2. NarcAngel says:

          Ah, the tag-teaming of the disgruntled. Predictable.

          Yes, please DO tell me about how hard it is to be an ACON as if I were not one and have suffered just as you and other ACONS have. Possibly in ways that you can not imagine.

          Tell me all about how the type of “support” you approve of is effective for all and should strictly be adhered to.

          Tell me how there is respect in telling someone to fuck off when they dare to add an opinion that you don’t approve of.

          Tell me how how it’s a battle to converse with me when you have lashed out at others when they dare to consider my comments or when they have the audacity address YOUR behaviour.

          Tell me how the blog is a place to “say what you truly mean”. But only certain people. Those you approve of. Not me.

          Tell me more about how I have black and white thinking while displaying exactly that yourself.

          Tell me why the ongoing support of the majority of the people here is not enough for you that you need me to change the content and delivery of my comments. Why you can’t say what you want, let me say what I want, and let people decide for themselves.

          While you’re at it – tell all the people who my comments do resonate with and who don’t agree with you that they are/were wrong and to ignore how they feel. Go ahead – invalidate them.

          I did not allow the narcissists that I was enslaved to to break me or control the rest of my life once free, so I certainly won’t be allowing those who have no such luxury or right now to attempt to control my freedom of expression and how I conduct myself.

          I would have thought surely as an ACON that you have had enough of, and can understand that, but perhaps not. Perhaps not all ACONS (or targets of any kind for that matter) are interested in your one-size fits all members only jackets.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            NA, thank you for writing your comment – it is a very powerful one that resonates with me from an ACON’s view.

            “Tell me more about how I have black and white thinking while displaying exactly that yourself” – exactly.

            An ACON’s experiences can result in some having B&W thinking, including me.

            Laughing…..”in your one-size fits all members only jackets” – brilliant!

            Thank you, NA. Thank you for speaking out loud in your style. I commend you on that.

          2. WiserNow says:

            NarcAngel,

            I said what I wanted to say – to you (not every commenter here) regarding this one thread (not everything you have ever said).

            There is no need for me to browbeat you or chase you away by continuing to drive my points home. Once is enough.

    4. WiserNow says:

      NA,

      “Being annoyed by or not liking someone’s comments on here will see us having opinion, but does not give us the right or expertise to affix such a damaging label.”

      It’s interesting that you say this. You felt free and entitled enough to imply that some commenters here are happy to wear the “victim hoodie”. I also remember you referring to particular ‘victims’ as “low hanging fruit” and joking about them. There have been other instances where you haven’t held back in saying exactly what you thought about someone.

      You affix damaging labels when it suits you or even just to have a laugh at someone’s expense.

      Also. . . “Nor do we have to uphold it because of any admiration for the accuser or prejudice against the recipient.”

      When it comes to “admiration” for HG, you will enter any thread or conversation and treat anyone with any comment you perceive as negative towards HG with the intent of debating, accusing or smearing them. You call them ‘gulls’ and worse. You feel that it’s okay for you to do this, yet you deem that others should refrain from feeling any kind of “kinship” based on previous interactions and/or perceptions.

      Again, you feel free enough to do it when it suits you.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Let’s have some accuracy here.

        1. NA is not the only one to refer to those interlopers as gulls. To level that accusation at her solely is a misrepresentation. Plenty of other readers reference them in that manner and to single NA out is inaccurate.
        2. “When it comes to “admiration” for HG, you will enter any thread or conversation and treat anyone with any comment you perceive as negative towards HG with the intent of debating, accusing or smearing them.” – not accurate. NA does not enter any thread, there are plenty of threads where people have made adverse comments against me and NA has not commented. Indeed there have been occasions where NA has questioned me (two which spring to mind the use of the label Ultra being one and her reaction with regard to the entry requirements concerning Dark Cupid, the latter of which I regarded as a disproportionate reaction). There are also instances where she is supportive of me, as other readers are.
        3. You, WN, have engaged in the practice of expressing your opinion (which you are entitled to do) and when someone else counters your opinion (which they are entitled to do) you cry foul. You evidently do not see that you do this as it has been pointed out to you before and you fail to see this obvious behaviour. As I have written many, many times before, if you (meaning anybody on this forum) express an opinion understand others may disagree with you and that does not mean they are “attacking” anybody and nor does it mean people are not allowed to express their contrary view.
        4. NA is far from fallible and you have drawn attention to such fallibility on previous occasions, however, like other long standing readers I have the measure of her from many comments and consultations. Certain commentators do not have that benefit and therefore they find her often direct and sometimes ribald comments irksome or difficult to accept which results in conflict. It is an understandable but unfortunate response to people not having taken time to get the measure of another reader. However that is her style, it is not from a position of nastiness. It´s no coincidence that those who are generally better disposed towards to NA tend to be longer standing readers who have grown accustomed to her manner. Similarly, it is unsurprising that more recent readers who are not as accustomed may find her approach “too much”.

        I see certain people do adopt entrenched positions with one another. I see that certain commenters are favourable to other commenters purely because they have been supportive to the original commenter. B supports A, so A reciprocates towards B, even when B has written something which does not merit support. I see certain commenters appear as the metaphorical second punch. I often make a note in my daybook showing “Y time – X has commented, expect A to appear and comment in Z fashion” and they invariably do because I see the dynamic between certain commenters.

        I have a simple solution. You and NA evidently do not like one another. I see from the exchanges that neither party is going to afford the other leeway. Instead, understandably so, each party will feel moved to always respond to what the other has written and this will never reach any resolution. There will just be a back and forth. I have allowed this previously in the spirit of debate, but there comes a time when it serves no meaningful purpose.

        The best outcome for you both is to avoid one another going forward.

        To put and end to this therefore neither of you should comment to one another or about one another directly or indirectly.I am going to give you both a chance to adhere to this voluntarily. If this cannot be done, I will then enforce it through automatic removal of offending comments. No reply is required from either of you to my comment as I have made it very clear what is expected of you both. Do both feel free to comment on other matters as you wish, within the ambit of the rules.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          HG, it was good to read your comment, including on a number of things you have said here. Thank you.

          1. BC30 says:

            @Asp Emp Me too! Cheese on f*cking rice! HG had to call a draw as if we were in a school yard.

            HG’s rules are sound. No misbehaving!

          2. Asp Emp says:

            BC30, laughing……. school yard?!?! More like animal farm !…… the foxes in the chicken pens, the wolves in the sheep pens, the snakes in the horse pens, the seagulls in the cow field…….. the washing line of red table-cloths surrounding the bull pen – one escaped and rampaged through the china shop…….

            (Asp Emp goes to look up the meaning of the word “misbehaving”…….).

            I did score highly on Machiavellian of the Dark Triad 😉

            Yes, I agree. HG’s rules are sound.

          3. WiserNow says:

            Asp Emp,

            You sound positively fuelled up. No sign of ’empathy’ at all. Seems like this is all providing you with plenty of triumphant exuberance. . .

            “. . . the foxes in the chicken pens, the wolves in the sheep pens, the snakes in the horse pens . . .” ???? …………what does this mean? What do you know that others don’t?

            “I did score highly on Machiavellian of the Dark Triad 😉 ” …….hmm, is that a “tell” by any chance?

            Very interesting.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Ah-The-One-Who-Seriously-Cannot-Fucking-Help-Themselves-Goes-To-Show-How-They-Are-Still-None-The-Wiser,

            I thought directly aim at you, I would grant you one of my wonderfully, beautifully and intelligently smart-mouth comments that you so richly deserve. Then I thought, nah, if they can’t swallow my deliciously delivered sense of humour, they can suck it instead. Suck my non-existence DICK until my “triumphant exuberance” chokes you and frees you of the ‘poison’ that is apparently and evidently obvious.

            I DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF TO YOU.

            I am fully aware that you have an AGREEMENT (not that you adhered to it for long, surprise, surprise) – to ‘rein’ in your ‘attitude’ towards another commenter. Now, I had assumed incorrectly that the ‘agreement’ would have made you think. Wisely.

            What was it you specifically said to me previously about PERCEPTIONS?

            I rest my case.

          5. WiserNow says:

            Asp Emp,

            You need to take a few deep breaths.

            Temper temper …

            Well… you went from ‘laughing’ to shouting obscenities quicker than it takes someone to say ‘heated fury’…. 🔥😳

            For the record, no-one asked you to “explain yourself”. No-one said I had an ‘agreement’ with *you*. Actually, the agreement in place isn’t about reining in my attitude, as you put it. If anything, I think you need some kind of ‘agreement’ in place to prevent the shouty and vulgar display of entitled anger.

            In the words of Another Cat…. I don’t care for your tone towards me Asp Emp. I also don’t care for your rude and escalated angry outburst at what was a reasonable reply to what you said in your previous comment. Why so angry?

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Still-None-The-Wiser,

            What is your real problem with me?

            You seem to only see in your “view”.

            Perceptions, perceptions, perceptions. Wedge it into yourself.

            Now, I am telling you, nicely. Stop your ‘attacking’ me. It is really a waste of HG’s time.

          7. WiserNow says:

            HG,

            Do you freely allow comments on your blog like the one Asp Emp wrote to me? Is it acceptable to you that she/he said:

            “…if they can’t swallow my deliciously delivered sense of humour, they can suck it instead. Suck my non-existence DICK until my “triumphant exuberance” chokes you and frees you of the ‘poison’ that is apparently and evidently obvious. ”

            To me, this is extremely rude and inappropriate and quite frankly, highly disrespectful to not only me, but others here and the blog in general.

            I have been treated in an ongoing hostile way by a few people here after saying ‘f*** off” once and then apologising for saying it. In response, I have had several comments like this directed at me – which is much worse in my view – without an apology and no-one bats an eyelid.

            As the moderator, what is your view on Asp Emp’s comment?

          8. HG Tudor says:

            WiserNow,

            You have been giving as good as you get, the exchanges between you and Asp Emp bear that out. You are both “at” one another, albeit in different styles. As the rules state, I allow robust exchanges, this is one such exchange.

            However I will once again solve the problem. You both do not like one another, the exchanges bear that out. Asp Amp and you are given an Order of Non Interaction. You are not to comment to or about one another, either directly or indirectly forthwith. This is to be addressed voluntarily and if neither party complies, I will enforce it through automatic deletion of offending posts. Through this Order you will not have anything to complain to me about with regard to her comments and she will not feel compelled to comment in the manner she has. Problem solved.

            “I have been treated in an ongoing hostile way by a few people here after saying ‘f*** off” once and then apologising for saying it. In response, I have had several comments like this directed at me – which is much worse in my view – without an apology and no-one bats an eyelid.” – perhaps you might reflect on why that might be. That there is a reason why people have responded to you in the way they have.

          9. Another Cat says:

            WN

            I don’t care for your tone towards Asp Emp. Empaths write jokes sometimes.

            HG, is it within the forum rules to, as a regular pattern, throw in wedges against the commenters who have many friends?

          10. HG Tudor says:

            It is not a rule that a commenter should throw “wedges” (potato? cheese?) against a commenter who has many friends.

          11. WiserNow says:

            HG & Another Cat,

            HG,
            …actually, it was a door wedge… followed by one of my wedge-heeled sandals… closely followed by a lob wedge (which is a golf club)…. lol 😂

            Another Cat,
            Would it help if I said it with a deeper voice, maybe…? Like a baritone or contralto, rather than my usual mezzo soprano…. ?

            Just kidding. As far as I can see, there’s a mix of ‘tones’ here…. and Asp Emp is quite capable of a number of different ones too….

            You’re right, Another Cat, empaths do write jokes sometimes… whether they have an abundance of ‘friends’ or not….. 😉

          12. Asp Emp says:

            Still-None-The-Wiser,

            I am all for flame-filled wedges. If you don’t mind, with extra hot sauce, thank you.

          13. Asp Emp says:

            HG, thank you for clarifying Another Cat’s question.

          14. Asp Emp says:

            Another Cat, thank you. It is greatly appreciated.

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Another Cat,

            I agree. Empaths do write jokes sometimes. Often to try to diffuse a situation.
            I also agree with HG’s reference to taking time to get to know other readers. We don’t all communicate in the same way. Xx

          16. Witch says:

            @WN

            You slyly accused ASP for being a narcissist by saying “you sound positively well fuelled.”
            I don’t want to speak for anyone but that could be why she’s annoyed?
            That wasn’t a reasonable comment. If you had a problem with what she said or you couldn’t understand the joke you could have said that without accusing her of being a narcissist

          17. Violetta says:

            Christ al-fucking-mighty!

            Could we get back to important things like James Spader and (forgive me, HG) hair?

            Shouldn’t they have been happy? We should have thought ourselves in heaven! And now, guess what your good children were doing? Isabella—I believe she is eleven, a year younger than Cathy—lay screaming at the farther end of the room, shrieking as if witches were running red-hot needles into her. Edgar stood on the hearth weeping silently, and in the middle of the table sat a little dog, shaking its paw and yelping; which, from their mutual accusations, we understood they had nearly pulled in two between them. The idiots! That was their pleasure! to quarrel who should hold a heap of warm hair, and each begin to cry because both, after struggling to get it, refused to take it. We laughed outright at the petted things; we did despise them!

        2. NarcAngel says:

          I thought there was leeway in my suggesting we all continue to comment as we like. However, I agree.

        3. NarcAngel says:

          HG

          “Similarly, it is unsurprising that more recent readers who are not as accustomed may find her approach “too much”.”

          I believe you are raising this as a possibility, but please do let me know if it has, or does, become a matter of concern for new readers and/ or yourself. I have no wish to harm the atmosphere or integrity of the blog in any way and there is a simple solution that I can and will effect if that is or becomes the case.

          Thank you,
          NA

          1. HG Tudor says:

            It is simply a possibility based on the occasional reaction that has been witnessed NA. I don’t regard your conduct as being problematic to the integrity of the blog, so continue to comment as you have (save of course with the recent adjustment mentioned earlier).

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            It’s interesting who people gravitate towards / listen to when they first arrive here. What we need and what we think we need can be two very different things. They can differ on different days. If everyone offered the same thing then those needs would not be met as effectively in my view.

            Sometimes, we need a listening ear, sometimes the experiences of others help confirm our own and sometimes some of us need someone to tell us to get the hell back up and fight. We’re all different. Personally I quite like the ‘hell back up’ approach.
            Just for info, in case it’s ever required going forwards.

          3. WhoCares says:

            “If everyone offered the same thing then those needs would not be met as effectively in my view.”

            Agreed.

        4. WiserNow says:

          HG,
          I agree with this.

  7. Duchessbea says:

    Asp Emp and TS,
    This is Duchessbea. I became aware yesterday evening of comments being sent under my username, that was not me sending those comments. Comments have been sent under my username on this site and other sites for quite a number of weeks from what I have traced back so far, without me knowing about it. I contacted HG last night and told him, and I have updated my a/c security and changed passwords.
    I am fully aware as to who has done it and I won’t make any further comment on it as they are also on this site. I don’t find it funny or amusing as to what was sent. This was done purely to embarrass me and also to hide behind my name to say what they really think and get away with it, without being held accountable for their behaviour.
    Both of you along with myself, are long term commentators on HG’s blog, I have exchanged comments with both of you before a number of times and I would never send either of you or anyone else bad or snarky comments.
    I am sorry that both of you received comments like that, but please know, it did not come from me.
    DB

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If this is correct, it is incumbent on you to email me and provide me with evidence that supports your assertion with regard to the identity of the individual who has allegedly done this and clear and cogent evidence which demonstrates that they have done this.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        It’s correct. That was Duchessbea. It feels like her.
        I agree with your request though HG. I think that’s wise.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          TS, I wanted to reiterate my thanks to you for standing by my side. You’re such a good lass. I cried last night and again today. How many others have been impacted, it is not just me – everyone else, I am also empathising.

          BTW, do you have a blunderbuss anywhere? 😉

          1. Duchessbea says:

            Asp Emp, what my sister said was appalling. She should not have said those things. I have just read your comment. I am so taken aback and in shock by what you just said. A blunderbuss is a firearm. I don’t find that comment in anyway lighthearted. You have effectively just sent a message in a blog for other commentators to read / witness about your intention of wanting to shoot / maim / kill someone? That is a very serious and dangerous threat to make.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Have you forwarded the evidence to HG?

            HG moderated my comment. Says it all really 🙂

      2. Asp Emp says:

        HG, I was going to email you in relation to all the comments here and on other threads. What was left on ‘Eyes Wide Shut’ was absolutely appalling – “whoever” wrote it. I know how it would have made you think about how these words / comments would have impacted quite a number of people reading them.

        In my view, should the evidence show it was someone else and not DB – then I would be inclined to agree about the deletion of as such – then again, it is your site, your blog and you have the final say.

        Thank you for listening and for being here. Right, I have to finish mowing before it starts raining!

        No matter what, you are still a star x

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I await the evidence, should it exist.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you, HG.

          2. Duchessbea says:

            HG, Asp Emp, has made a comment to TS on June 11th at 15.41. At the end of her comment she asks a question of TS – ‘BTW, do you have a blunderbuss anywhere?’ with a smiley face at the end of it.
            HG, I do not find that comment lighthearted or appropriate. Asp Emp has effectively said that she wants to shoot / maim / kill and has asked for help.
            That comment by Asp Emp is absolutely disgusting and shocking. How many innocent men, women and children have lost their lives after a shooting by a mad person. This is wholly unacceptable HG, to make a dangerous and intentional comment like that, that has been read and witnessed by numerous people.
            My sister might have made a few stupid and ridiculous comments but she never threatened the lives of anyone or made anyone fearful that they would be hurt.
            This comment is a very serious, dangerous, intentional and unacceptable comment to have been made.
            For a comment like that to have been aired and for Asp Emp to be allowed to have a comment like that aired, this is not the type of blog I thought it was.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Duchessbea,

            1. Yes, I read the comment, It was allowed through because having moderated over 3000 of Asp Emp´s comments, I have a measure of her demeanour and I know that this was a joking reference.
            2. Your appropriation of people having lost their lives through shooting, to this situation, is disingenuous.
            3. To express your mock horror at this “dangerous and intentional comment” is similarly disingenuous.
            4. You reference the behaviour of “your sister”. Let us for a moment assume that (a) she exists , and (b) she has been making comments using your profile on this blog. On that assumption, you are now diminishing her (apparent) conduct (“might have made a few stupid and ridiculous comments but she never threatened the lives of anyone or made anyone fearful that they would be hurt”). whereas earlier you were expressing your disapproval of it. So, she might have made stupid and ridiculous comments? Are you not sure? Which is it?
            5. “This comment is a very serious, dangerous, intentional and unacceptable comment to have been made.
            For a comment like that to have been aired and for Asp Emp to be allowed to have a comment like that aired, this is not the type of blog I thought it was.” – this is deflection.

            A variety of comments have been made towards me, specific readers and the readers generally which have come from your profile. You have, despite having been offered the opportunity to do so, failed, so far, to offer any evidence whatsoever to demonstrate that it is anybody other than you who has engaged in this behaviour, which you are now seeking to backtrack from. I invited you earlier to email me with cogent evidence to demonstrate that this was the conduct of “somebody else” on the blog who now happens to apparently be your sister. You have not done so. You evidently have time to do so, since you are commenting here. I would suggest that clearing your name ranks as a higher priority than acting bent out of shape because of something Asp Amp has written.

            I recommend that you refrain from any further transparent “complaints” about the comments of other readers until you have your own house in order. I am giving you an opportunity to provide me with the evidence to demonstrate that it was your sister, as you allege. My email is narcissist1909@gmail.com – I am not going to debate this issue with you on the blog, I have given you a means of demonstrating that you are not at fault and it is the fault of somebody else. I recommend that you avail yourself of that opportunity whilst I still present it to you.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            HG, thank you SO much for your words of support and explanations, much appreciated.

            Thank you also for moderating over 3,000 of my comments (bloody hell, that’s not many is it? 😉 ). Didn’t realise you were counting LOL. (I know it’s a facility within the WP system).

            Thank you once again.

          5. Leigh says:

            Asp, when I read this comment, I thought, “Crap! He’s counting our comments???” LOL! I’m sure my number is high too. Yikes!

          6. HG Tudor says:

            953.

          7. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, there would be a ‘counter’ on the WP system. It really is not a concern. I was surprised but not surprised – over 3k = on average 9 per day……ehem.

          8. Leigh says:

            I didn’t even realize that there was a counter. My number isn’t too bad. I’ve been here for over two years.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, now you know 😉 Pre-designed systems offer all sorts of statistical ways of obtaining data (usually to produce numbers of), depends on the system used. I’ve used MS Access for that and Excel but I sometimes find that too rigid compared to Access. I no longer use MS office programs because of the monthly fees! LibreOffice is the best to use – it’s free.

          10. Leigh says:

            That’s a good tip to know. Thank you Asp!

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, you are more than welcome. I use it because it can open up MS files (text / spreadsheet docs). 🙂

          12. Asp Emp says:

            There you go, Leigh. You can now continue to keep count 😉

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Two of them are commenting using the same profile.

            June 11 12.28 is Duchessbea
            June 11 16.01 is Duchessbea

            ALL of the others are the sister in my opinion. Disregard the comments and cut the lines. I saw your comment, you’re welcome. Let’s chat once HG handles this one way or the other. Xx

          14. Asp Emp says:

            TS, ok. Thank you. X

        2. Violetta says:

          If there’s evidence, rather than deleting it, adding a disclaimer (in boldface?) might be instructional. Alerts people to the dynamics of sock-puppeting.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta – good idea. Let’s leave to HG to decide. I still do not regret any of my words because in my perception, they are appropriate.

            Sock-puppeting – laughing, WITHOUT the talcum powder of course! 😉

        3. Duchessbea says:

          Asp Emp, my sister made a few very stupid and daft comments, but she never threatened anyone with a firearm.
          I don’t think you realise the gravity of the comment you have made. Let me give you this piece of advice very quickly, you have effectively threatened to hurt/injure/kill someone with a firearm in writing. You just laugh off a comment like that, like it is nothing. Absolutely Horrendous.
          Shame on you Asp Emp.

      3. Duchessbea says:

        The person that had access to my a/c was my older sister. Obviously as my sister she knows me very well, and would have a good idea as to what kind of passwords I might use. In this case it was a birthday, not to hard to figure out. She knew I was commenting on this blog from my style of writing and the comments I would make. As I have said before, she and I are here for different reasons. My intention is to learn and her intention is to sharpen and strengthen her skills. I can understand why you are dubious and I would think the same if I was in your place. I have not made a bad comment towards anyone on this site before, and I am on it a long time. Why should I just suddenly out of the blue change the way I have always done things? I have had to say the same to other commentators on other blogs, this was not the only one she was commenting on. She did it for some kind of amusing way. I do not have the same personality as her and what she finds funny and what I would find funny are two different things. I was very annoyed to have seen this. Knowing her and the character that she is, I have to draw a line under this because to continue on and let her read all the comments, it is just fueling her and that is all she wants. Something I will not do with her.

      4. Bubbles says:

        Dear Mr Tudor,
        This has certainly been an unfortunate sequence of events
        I hope this does not cause further issues to real Duchessbea in the future with regard to any detrimental setbacks
        We are all most vulnerable here and her apology seems genuinely heartfelt
        I would be horrified and mortified if I had sister who did this to me ! The change in her writing was very noticeable and it made me think something was drastically happening in her life
        I hate the thought the real DB now feels embarrassed, humiliated, isolated n alone and will be subjected to dealing with all the implications of her narc sister
        My interactions with her have always been courteous n respectful
        I truly feel for all here who have been violated in some way 😢
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. Duchessbea says:

          Bubbles,
          Thank you very much for your very kind comment. It was a big lesson learned. If you were in anyway affected by what she did, I apologise to you.
          Best, DB.

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Duchessbea,
            You certainly don’t need to apologise to me DB…but I sincerely thank you for your thoughtfulness
            My concern is for everyone’s fragility n emotional well being and hope that all are ok
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. Duchessbea says:

            Thank you Bubbles.

  8. Duchessbea says:

    Truthseeker 6157 & Asp Emp

    Yawn.

    Much Love,

    Duchessbea

  9. Duchessbea says:

    Asp Emp,
    There is no need to try to start a argument. You need to chill out sweetheart. Everyone here is entitled to there opinion, I am entitled to my opinion just like you. I did not mention the two people by name and by your very response to me you again are highlighting that you are letting your ET get the better of you. I appreciate what you had to say in all your comments here. I think you are reading far to much into this in the wrong manner.
    HG has a fantastic work both blog and video. Many of us who have turned up here get a better understanding from HG’s work on what we have been ensnared with or are friends with or live with etc. etc. I am not here to insult or hurt anybody, as a SE, I would not do that. I did my little experiment to further my knowledge and understanding of the Ultra. I have worked through each and every cadre and the Ultra is, I suppose like another dimension. It is well and good to read all the articles, but I don’t like seeing the way these poor unfortunates who end up with HG are treated. I am still empathic at the end of the day, can’t help that. We all see there reactions, and how they feel. I wanted a more detailed understanding and picture of HG and how he would react to something similar. As I have older sisters and an Ex who are all narcissists of various different cadres, I have seen their behaviour and I suppose learned a thing or two. I know how they would all react, and deal with this. But I am working through the understandings of the Ultra and this story gave me a chance to see what if any response HG would give. He didn’t have to give a response, he could have just ignored it. But he didn’t, and I am glad he didn’t. It has improved my understanding and given me a greater insight into the mind of and Ultra and how they approach things and work through things.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Duchessbea,

      Me? Start an argument? Don’t make me laff. I’m not your sweetheart either. Exactly, everyone entitled to their opinion. You were indirectly naming and attacking me and TS – hence both of us responding, appropriately. I know exactly why you ‘reacted’ to me and TS commenting.

      Just like HG responded “Know your place”. You did not even stop at this point. Why? Ask yourself this. There are other occasions on HG’s blog where you have done similar towards HG, it is derogatory, demeaning, disrespectful.

      ET does not come into it at all – not from me, TS, nor HG.

      It was your illogical and ‘deranged’ comment that led to where you and me are at right now. You know what? I really don’t give a shit. Because you have not stopped and really thought it through in a logical way.

      What I am seeing in this “personal” comment to me – is that you are deflecting and trying to “explain” away what you have said on this thread. You have insulted me (and others in this thread).

      I read what TS said about Super Empaths in her response back to you. Since I don’t know what my empath school or cadre is – I’ll trust that what TS said to you to be correct. I read the rest of her comment to you, applause to her for that.

      “I did my little experiment to further my knowledge and understanding of the Ultra. I have worked through each and every cadre and the Ultra is” – why? If he wanted to be with you, he would be.

      HG has the right to choose anyone he wishes to be involved in his private life.

      It is not your ‘concern’ about his past girlfriends, you are not directly affected by this at all.

      “I wanted a more detailed understanding and picture of HG and how he would react to something similar” – again, Why? He gave you an answer “Know your place”. He has provided the KHG series, it’s still available via The Knowledge Vault if you are so desperate to know more about him.

      “But I am working through the understandings of the Ultra and this story gave me a chance to see what if any response HG would give. He didn’t have to give a response, he could have just ignored it. But he didn’t, and I am glad he didn’t. It has improved my understanding and given me a greater insight into the mind of and Ultra and how they approach things and work through things”- again, Why?

      You may have got it very wrong in relation to “understanding” how The Ultra’s mind actually works. There is only one Ultra.

      He gave you a response “Know your place”.

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Again you are reading to much into it. I said what I did, if I had told HG what I was doing before I did it, he would not have responded. I didn’t intentionally insult anyone, and that was never my intention. We get to see the response and reaction of how the partners in these stories feel when they are ill treated. They do not know what they are ensnared with and respond to the treatment accordingly. I just wanted the Ultra’s response on what I sent and I am grateful for HG responding. He could have ignored the message, he could have deleted the message. He did not. He responded. I don’t take offence to what HG said, nor would I.
        Let me break it down for you in simple language, there really is no need to send snoozefest novels of a response.
        I sent HG a message. HG gave me a response to my message. That was all I wanted. To see his response to my message. I don’t take offence or I wasn’t hurt by what HG sent because to do so meant I would have deliberately tried to cause offence. I DID NOT. Simply put, we have all read so many scenarios and excellent stories on this site but we only get the response of the partner and I just wanted to see what way HG would respond. Yes, I will be honest, I was curious before as to how HG would respond and in those scenarios he basically didn’t. So when I read this story, again a brilliant story, of which I have told HG, previously about how good his writing is, I just tried to get a response from HG. He again, did not have to respond. But I am glad that he did. We are all here to learn and gain the knowledge. Sometimes on the rare occasion, if you want to further knowledge, you have to push the boat out a bit. HG, did not react, he responded. That’s it.
        So jump down off your high horse and relax. You are reading way to much into something and creating something that is not there.
        I have seen a lot worse from other people on this site, some of which has been people slagging off HG, slagging off all of us, etc. etc. I am sure you have also seen these messages. I have never slagged off HG. I have defended HG, along with a number of other people when that happens.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Duchessbea,

          Thank you for the distastefully written and absolute bollocks of an incorrigible WORD SALAD.

          Some of your comments are longer than everyone else’s on this thread. There are some comments I left for you and yet, surprise, surprise, you have not responded. Why?

          “That was all I wanted”. The very first “message” you sent was very descriptive of what you “wanted”.

          I’ll continue to ride and sit on my high horse for as long as I want. I’ll relax when I’m done riding, as I usually do. You don’t get to decide when I get off it.

          “You are reading way to much into something and creating something that is not there”. Seriously? OMG. Revision of History. Deflection. Blameshifting…..

          There is a complete difference in ‘slagging’ someone off compared to ‘objectifying’ them.

          You never used to be like this.

          Something has happened a few months ago when the first of these ‘objectifying’ “messages” appeared. It is something that you have not yet dealt with, maybe not yet shared on here. You are ‘lashing’ out and something you read in the articles you posted these ‘objectifying’ comments that are triggering your uncharacteristic behaviours. What is it, Duchessbea?

          1. Violetta says:

            “I’ll continue to ride and sit on my high horse for as long as I want. I’ll relax when I’m done riding, as I usually do. You don’t get to decide when I get off it.”

            Don’t forget to groom it afterwards. Not only does this remove irritating knots and cockleburs, but the currying massages muscles, and the contact mimics mama horses’ grooming the foals with their teeth, thus encouraging bonding and increasing oxytocin in both of you.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, thank you for your advice, I’ll bear that in mind. I’ll have an apple or two for the horse to snack on afterwards during the bonding ‘encouragement’. I’d wondered why I ended up with so many hairs between my teeth 😉

          3. Violetta says:

            Asp Emp:

            Mammal hair can be a serious problem. I always like to nibble on puppy heads and kitten heads.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, there is a difference in stroking pets and licking them. I refused to let my dog cough up the grass blades she ate inside the house!

          5. Violetta says:

            I don’t lick them, I just nibble with my lips, but you can still get some floof if it’s a Great Pyr or Chow. Velvety short-hairs like Danes and pitties are less linty. Bald human babies are best of all.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, I understand what you mean. Floof, laughing.

    2. Violetta says:

      “a greater insight into the mind of and Ultra and how they approach things and work through things.”

      ? Did you mean “Greaters”?

      There’s only one Ultra, so how could “they” approach anything at all?

      I grant you HG has conferred that unique and dubious honor on himself, but it’s his blog, his terminology, which we use when we communicate with him–not only out of respect, but because it’s more economical than saying “The guy at my gym who thinks he’s buff but is really aging and decrepit” or “that woman at work who pretends she’s helping you when she’s trying to sabotage you.”

      1. Duchessbea says:

        Hi Violetta,
        There is no need to read anything into it or try to decipher anything. I just wanted to see how a Greater or in HG’s case The Ultra would respond. He didn’t have to respond. He did and I am glad he did. I didn’t take offence to what he responded. He could have been much more brisk with me and I would still accept his response. I wouldn’t have asked the question if I wasn’t able to handle his answer. It wasn’t done to cause offence.
        Truthseeker6157 and Asp Emp, are reading much more into it and creating drama where there is no need to create drama. The are coming across as the ‘Mean Girls’. No need to conduct themselves like that.
        DB.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Duchessbea, I seriously do not know what you are taking – whatever it is, it is truly well fucking up your mind !! I don’t care about being called a “Mean Girl”. So fucking what. It’s obviously bothering you – your fucking problem. Suck it up, little girl.

          As for you being being nasty towards TS, not fucking acceptable. At all.

          TS & I are “conducting” ourselves in the way she and I feel is the RIGHT way – if we see HG being treated in a derogatory way like he has – by you – yeah, I’ll come out and say something. TS certainly did too.

          If you read between the lines at other’s comments – I suspect they are also aggrieved.

          Get over yourself, you stupid little girl.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        Violetta

        Yes, he did bestow that honour on himself.

        I was (and still am) quite surprised at how easily the title of “Ultra” was embraced when it was first introduced. I expected there to be questions/discussion about how and why this came about and I commented on that on another thread some time ago, but there really wasn’t much (if any) response. I can’t really put my finger on it except to say that I see danger in that. HG is a narcissist, and yes – it’s his blog and he is free to present what he believes to be fact, but the bigger question to me was: why did we so easily accept it as fact and continue to feed into it by using that title after he proclaimed it. No one questioned: Ultra on what basis? What is the evidence/necessity for this new School of One? What precipitated this change?

        It was like a seed was planted and we were happy to look anywhere but at it while it grew. A red flag (or at least pink) for me. Have we really learned to spot red flags or avoid toxic relationships if we go back to overlooking and accepting things handed to us with confidence without question?

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi NA, I have accepted it because it was established prior to my arrival but also since that time because he is the only one doing the favor for us of exposing his kind to us in a way that is easily understood and relatable. I have also wondered about the effect on him but I don’t concern myself with it as I see that as his thing and just leave it there. I think it is also helping him from a business perspective because people do accept and don’t seek out why he has this label, generally. I hope that in real time what I’m learning here does work.

          1. FoolMe1Time says:

            AV
            I was here when he changed it and honestly I thought it was odd at first and then I just chalked it up to it being HG, a man who has said he is God! Haha

          2. A Victor says:

            No kidding, if you can equate yourself with God, claiming “The Ultra” is a simple and logical step!

          3. FoolMe1Time says:

            A V
            I’m sorry I hit send before I wanted to. As much as I made light of the fact HG did change to Ultra, I did not question him as why he did so. A warning sign that I missed? Possibly. X

          4. A Victor says:

            FM1T, I guess all of you who’ve been here for a while have more of the big picture on how that all happened and what questions were asked. It doesn’t sound like many but, for me, a person can call themselves anything they want, I will make the determination in my own mind if I agree with their assessment, and it is likely never stated in the case that I don’t. And, I think it is quite unsurprising that a narcissist would elevate themselves to the highest possible denominator. I agree with HG’s assessment of himself, just to be clear. He is doing us all a huge favor and I believe really wants us to succeed even though it is for his own purposes. I am okay with that. That said, if there is a warning sign that we’re missing, and you see it, can you fill me in? That could be pretty important!

          5. BC30 says:

            😂 I have only one Lord–a furry and extremely demanding 🐱 little narcissist, deigns to let me nibble his belly in exchange for my undying love and worship.

          6. A Victor says:

            BC30 and JB, he wanted lord, small l, lord of the major type thing. It was just a power play, at least at the time that’s what I thought. Now I know it was a manipulation or some other narcy thing. A test to see how under control I was probably. I am happy to call him Asshole, capitol A.

        2. Witch says:

          @NA
          I’ve said so to someone else here that I’m not really invested in the “ultra” thing when it was initially introduced.
          I still consider HG an upper greater.
          I appreciate that he is the only narcissist so far who has provided the quality of information that narcsite continues to offer.
          However, the jury is still out on whether or not another narcissist could reach this level of awareness but possibly for whatever reason is not interested in sharing narc secrets with the rest of us?

        3. Leigh says:

          I remember when he first changed it, too, Truthseeker commented about it also and it never went any further.

          You say, “Have we really learned to spot red flags or avoid toxic relationships if we go back to overlooking and accepting things handed to us with confidence without question?” I ask myself this all the time. Am I just blindly following him the same way I blindly followed the other narcs in my life? The difference with Mr. Tudor is the puzzle pieces finally fit. It finally makes sense. So I guess I do just blindly follow him. Even though I saw others question it, I never did.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            For many, it makes logical sense, hence it was not questioned. They have commented as such privately to me.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            My intention is not to insult HG or his work in the question I posed. I do not consider it following him blindly to accept the information he offers because as I’ve stated many times – what he writes has been proven accurate to my experiences and many others over time. I felt HG’s breakdown of the Schools and Cadres was brilliant and finally explained why we see similarities yet differences in our narc involvements for instance, so it made sense to me initially that he was a Greater Elite according to his system and amongst other Greater Elites. As Witch has indicated – he may be the only one we accept as benefitting us but the jury is out on whether or not there are others able to reach his level of awareness. I can think of one confirmed Greater (who shall remain nameless) that certainly thinks so haha. When HG first used Ultra In relation to himself I thought: Is he joking? Is this a new school? A school of one? He has stated that he has always been “set apart” from others yet included himself in the Greater Elite school previously. I wondered what precipitated this change to Ultra. How, or does, this fit into the previous discussions about him becoming more pro-social? Does it mean he sees himself as having become more powerful through his interactions with the doctors and with us and was required to set himself further apart? Is it strictly marketing? Was it merely to stick it to he who shall remain unnamed and the countless others attempting to emulate HG’s success?

            Those are examples of questions that came to me. I said previously that it was like the Emperors New Clothes. I was looking around to see if others saw and questioned as I was, but it didn’t seem so. My feeling is that HG is The Ultra in providing accurate information on narcissism and if that’s all that is being referred to by The Ultra then I’m onboard. I was interested in hearing HG’s reason for the change, but lack of discussion and the easy acceptance of this seemingly (to me) pivotal announcement by his audience mystified me more.

            We learn here to question (and by questioning I don’t mean rejecting, as many positives and more confidence in something can result from questioning). HG can take questions. He decides if and what he will respond to, but we can certainly ask. I’m just hoping if there ARE questions and we don’t ask for fear of causing offence, or we feel too intimidated (as is often mentioned to in relation to consultations but is extremely unfounded as he is the consummate professional) that this doesn’t transfer over to our personal lives and cause further/continued ensnarement.

            Easy acceptance did not seem logical to me, but I accept that it might to others, so I appreciate the responses to try to help me understand.

          3. Leigh says:

            I didn’t mean to insult Mr. Tudor’s work either. I apologize if I did.. I’m beyond grateful to his work. I know his work is accurate. My comment is more about my hesitancy because for over 50 years I’ve trusted the wrong people. I question everyone and everything now. I’m still not sure of myself.

            I honestly thought it was none of my business to ask. Everyone else was ok with the change, so I was too.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Hi NA, I read your comment here, with interest. I wondered if HG created the ‘Ultra’ to separate himself from the schools of narcissism because of what he understands about himself as a person? Is it because he has more awareness of himself compared to the Greaters have about themselves? It goes without saying, HG continuously increases his own abilities, where there is a high possibility that the ‘gap’ between himself as a person and the Upper Greater narcissist has grown significantly over the years since HG started KTN site? Did he include himself in the Greater Elite, despite “he has always been “set apart” from others”, because at that time, the ‘Ultra’ had not been ‘created’ until later – is it because he no longer sees himself to ‘fit’ in with the Greaters because the ‘criteria’ is different, or no longer applicable?

            I am not specifically asking anyone these questions, nor expecting answers. Just thinking out loud. Thank you, NA for the ‘thought food’. Inspiring to read your comment, as usual, NA.

          5. Violetta says:

            I guess I’m in the camp of people who don’t give a toss whether HG calls himself the Grand Panjandrum or The Akond of Swat. When I noticed the introduction of the solitary rank of “Ultra,” it’s not like I was going to think, “Hey, this is kind of grandiose. Do you think HG could be…a Narcissist?!!

          6. JB says:

            Violetta, I agree, I don’t care what he calls himself either. HG has completely changed my life, and is the only person whose information truly makes sense to me, so I guess the term ‘ultra’ is applicable here, as he certainly has a gift. And, as you say, the choice of name is not a surprise, given that HG is a narcissist!

        4. njfilly says:

          NA:

          Were we supposed to question it? Why question it anyway? Just because people haven’t questioned something doesn’t mean they accept it. Maybe they just don’t want to bother with questioning it. I see many comments on this blog I disagree with, or don’t understand, but there is no need to question everything.

          I’m not sure I agree that there is danger in one’s acceptance of his title The Ultra, or that this is evidence that someone would accept anything said to them, or given to them in their real lives. I don’t think we can superimpose the relationship each of us has with HG Tudor onto our own lives or narcissists.

          For me, it didn’t matter because HG Tudor is not the narcissist in my life so why bother questioning him. He can make any claim he wants, or call himself whatever he wants and it doesn’t matter or affect me.

          As to your final paragraph I didn’t view him calling himself The Ultra as a seed being planted, or a red flag because we know he is a narcissist, and there is no reason to question him on his “self entitlement” (having bestowed the title The Ultra onto himself). I also don’t view my own acceptance of this as evidence that I have not learned to spot red flags or avoid toxicity as this interaction does not have the same toxic dynamic, there is no need for the same diligence in questioning, and this is his blog. Lastly, I don’t take it very seriously.

          Anyway, on this point I agree with him and accept him as The Ultra.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Hi njfilly

            No, we weren’t supposed to and it was not required. I was just surprised given that we have questioned (and quite ferociously I might say) other subjects where I did not expect it (deeply personal investigation and observation with regard to his relationship with The Shieldmaiden for example comes to mind). It was no holds barred then.

            The danger I felt was not in him introducing the title, but rather our ease of acceptance of it, but you’re right – it doesn’t mean one would accept as easily outside of the blog, although there are many examples that we have previously done just that and might or continue to do so.

            I accept that it did not give you the same pause and thank you for your response as to why. I am however a bit confused though by your subsequent comment indicating that you would question your father and would refuse him a new title.

            Do you mean that you put that down to the degree of influence you believe the person to have over you as to how you respond?

          2. njfilly says:

            NA,

            Let me say first that you do pose some thought provoking questions that make for some interesting conversations.

            My answer to your question is that I’m not exactly sure. Maybe you are correct in that it is based upon the degree of influence a person has over me. My responses are situation specific. I don’t like my father. Sometimes I hate him. I have intermittent anger and resentment toward him (although recently I feel that fading) for everything he did to me when I was a child and couldn’t fight back, and I didn’t have the ability to deal with it. He made my life much more difficult than it had to be or needed to be. Rather then helping me, as a father should, or even being indifferent to me (which is still unacceptable for a father), he went out of his way to cause difficulty. (I know you understand this and possibly experienced the same thing. I write it out just to give flow to my thoughts). I rarely speak to him anymore at all and I no longer call him dad. If I must speak to him, I just look at him and speak. He deserves no respect, no regard, no consideration, no title of any kind. I don’t have these negative feelings toward HG Tudor. I really don’t remember how The Ultra came about. When did the change take place? Did he make a post or an announcement about it that I may have missed? I think I just began to read the title and I just pieced it together that he was referring to himself as The Ultra. Further, he has never said we had to address him as The Ultra, although if he did I would probably comply because I do view him as being in a position of authority over me based upon his knowledge of the subject matter, and I want my questions to be answered. (Also, I think he is magnificent, and I will call him whatever he wants to be called! My father is less than magnificent. Much much less than.) It is his lexicon that I would question only if I wanted to understand it more deeply, but I don’t. This blog and the classifications are an unusual circumstance, it’s not my real life, this blog is simply a fun distraction for me. I am not in an abusive situation that I need to escape. Lastly, I don’t have any reason to NOT want to call him by his preferred title.

            Regarding questions about the Shieldmaiden, I have also asked questions about his relationship. I’m curious about it. HG Tudor is an intelligent, fascinating man so I’m curious about him on a personal level. I’m not curious about why he refers to himself as The Ultra. I believe I understand why so I have no questions about it.

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi NA,

            I remember having a discussion with you at the time. You mentioned Emperors New Clothes then I think, and we discussed marketing and the pro social element. My view was that it was based on awareness level. Particularly in relation to empaths as opposed to just narcissists. You’re right, I don’t recall it being a lengthy discussion. I think we concluded that all would be revealed as, when and if HG decided to share. He hasn’t yet but we do have a Q&A on the cards !

          4. njfilly says:

            This upcoming Q&A should be very interesting!

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NJ Filly,

            Agree, I’m looking forward to it. I don’t have as many questions as I usually do. I’ll have to think about it. I really enjoy them though.

        5. njfilly says:

          If my father were to tell me that I should start calling him “Dad The Great”, yes I would question that. Also I would refuse.

          1. MP says:

            Logical thinking can also be, how does him being an Ultra affect me in my life and personal improvement? Nothing. All that I care about is the information he has that has been superior and most helpful to me personally and that is all that is relevant to me.

            Some people had strong reactions to the Shieldmaiden relationship because a lot of them went through a horrific experience being romantically ensnared by a narcissist so it triggers something strongly from their past. I don’t understand what his Ultra title would trigger from anyone though, except maybe jealousy?

          2. njfilly says:

            MP,

            I’m sure his Ultra title triggers jealousy from other narcissists but also, possibly, others involved in providing narcissistic abuse forums, such as other youtube channels. Maybe Vaknin is jealous. Although I don’t really understand the jealously since they could simply give themselves a similar title!

            I have to admit to feeling a bit tense about his relationship with SM. I feel guilty being interested in knowing about it when it involves her personal life; sad that I know some things about her boyfriend that she does not know (unless she knows now); and anxious that he may eventually devalue her. I don’t want to hear about it if and when he does. I don’t want to think about her heartbreak. I feel compassion for her. I would like the new dynamic to work and for this relationship to be different than his others. Possibly wishful thinking. I can’t image the depth of her emotions if she is eventually discarded. I have to stop myself from thinking about it as it causes me distress.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Njfilly

            Please disregard my last question as I see in re-reading your response that you have covered it with your point on diligence and source. Thank you.

          4. njfilly says:

            Ha ha! After I wrote a long, drawn out comment trying to explain myself because I HATE being misunderstood!

            No problem, NA.

          5. Another Cat says:

            Good question NA

            I guess I didn’t think much about this title. I pondered a bitsy whether a certain playwright in English history might be another Ultra narcissist, but regarding the awareness of all the schools and cadres of his kind and of empaths and normals, there simply is no other person in history I’ve ever heard of, accomplishing anything in this realm.

          6. Bubbles says:

            Dearest njfilly,
            I looked it up and ‘ultra’ means extreme; (also as in opinions) far beyond the norm, excessive, goes beyond what is usual of ordinary

            Also ‘ultra’ was the designation adopted by the British intelligence in June 1941 for wartime signals intelligence obtained by breaking high-level encrypted enemy radio and teleprinter communications at the Government Code and Cypher School at Bletchley Park
            Now British Intelligence headquarters are based in Vauxhall London
            🤔Hmmmmm
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. njfilly says:

            Dear Bubbles,

            Wow! Interesting information. Thank you for sharing that.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, you reminded me of ‘The Imitation Game’ 2014 film Benedict Cumberbatch who played the character Alan Turing. It was the factual side of Alan Turing’s life that piqued my attention and how could the world treat a highly intelligent man in the way he was? Was politics more narcissistic then, or is it worse now? Hmm….

          9. A Victor says:

            Toward the end of our long relationship, after years of abuse, my ex wanted me to call him “lord”. I refused, he pushed it for a while but finally gave up. There was no way that was happening, regardless of whatever consequences he brought on, he had in no way earned a title such as that.

          10. njfilly says:

            A Victor:

            Interesting that your ex wanted you to call him Lord.

            Maybe he should have earned your respect first.

          11. Bubbles says:

            Dearest njfilly n Asp Emp,
            You’re most welcome ….. I wanted to understand it myself … the difference between greater n ultra ! I get where Mr Tudor is coming from
            The Imitation Game is a fabulous movie … I have a copy and have seen it numerous times …. thankfully Alan Turing has been acknowledged and awarded an OBE
            Narcissism has always prevailed, it’s just more noticeable and out in the open now and sadly flourishing!
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          12. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, RE: Alan’s award – that was one of the things I was referring to. A court ruled that he was to take meds for his choice of sexuality. I was horrified. It was after that I learned more about how people were treated for their ‘same’ sex relationships. Hence my statement RE: narcissism & politics. Yes, it is a good film – I learned facts of humanity that I was not aware about.

        6. Z - zwartbolleke says:

          NA,
          As far as I understand it, the meaning of ‘why’ the Ultra, how was the Ultra born, lies in: flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.
          We (= Mercy and I), discussed this at length in the forum.

          It is related to the grand design and to the quoted adage.

          And that is why there is only 1.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Z, thank you for your interpretation RE: the ‘creation’ of The Ultra. It makes sense.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Z

            Thank you. I visited the HG Forum last night for the first time in awhile and found some references there re: The Ultra that were more in line with my thinking/questioning as to what the reasons might be. Your analysis was something to behold! The forum is a goldmine for anyone who is interested in HG’s history, family, and how his narcissism was formed, amongst other things. The Clue Hunters are impressive in their dedication and skill at working things out. As well, I thought it might have prompted some to look into The Ultra even though they may not have commented, and Bubbles has introduced something here that very much interests me and perhaps other Clue Hunters.

            Everyone

            It wasn’t really about him calling himself the Ultra as that is unsurprising (and I agree to some extent), it was more about any change that occurred that lead to that and reactions or non-reactions of the readers that were interesting to me. Sometimes people come here and leave when they’ve obtained the information they feel required in their private lives, others remain for various reasons and the focus can shift (at least it has for me). I have worked through personal issues and am more interested now in narcissism as a whole, HG personally (how his narcissism was formed, how it manifested, and any changes that have or might occur). I am also more interested in the thought processes of empaths at different stages and am sometimes surprised at my reactions in relation to others and the various types of empaths. It has remained interesting to me to this point and thus I am still here for those who have questioned that. I ask or question because I am interested and that is how I learn. If we all thought alike and had the same opinions, it is my view that there would be no growth and things would become stagnant.

            Thank you all for your contributions to the subject. I appreciate them and your time.

            HG

            Thank you as well for your patience and time in moderating. I’m working on less comments albeit they have become longer (I’ll work on that too). Hey – at least it wasn’t shopping and sex toys!

            NA

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Not a problem NA, always good to see you interacting and commenting.

          4. njfilly says:

            NA:

            With regard to your comment about reasons for being and/or staying on this blog, I find my own evolution here to be interesting.

            When I first arrived I read only the articles, never the comments, and made very few comments. I already knew about narcissism but found HG Tudor information very detailed and extensive, so I read more.

            Very shortly afterward I no longer cared to learn anymore about narcissism and was only interested in the person HG Tudor.

            Now I only read the comments, and no longer read the articles. I stay only due to my interest in HG Tudor the person.

            I will get back to reading his articles. He is such a fine, brilliant writer.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you

  10. Duchessbea says:

    Foreigner 74,
    Thank you for your message. I was sorry to read about what you went through but very glad to hear you GOSO. Yes HG, very much proved he is the Ultra. His response was exactly what I thought it might be and very eloquently and smoothly said by HG. It was interesting also to me to see his response. My sisters who are a mix of cadres all love the dramatics and if they had been involved in this it would have been dragged out and blasted all over the place. All just looking for a reaction and playing on that reaction. For me to see HG respond and no reaction was very interesting. Firstly it proved that the Ultra is top dog, he is what he says he is and just as the story says he can provoke and cause consternation with his IPPS and two seconds later be as cool and smooth as if nothing happened. Basically, he is not bothered. He can take anything that comes his way and deal with it. While the IPPS is flustered and ragged. I hope I phrased that in an understanding way.

  11. A Victor says:

    What is ISMR?

    1. Violetta says:

      I’ve looked both in my old saved list of acronyms and the updated one on the site and can’t find it, unless it’s a combo of Intimate Source and Mid-Ranger.

      Imaginary Source?

      1. A Victor says:

        I put it on my list of questions in case I don’t find out sooner. Thank you!

        1. TheVimtoSlut says:

          Vi

          Thanks for doing that, I was confused as well. Your interpretation makes a lot of sense.

  12. Truthseeker6157 says:

    Hey JB,

    It’s interesting isn’t it. We read the articles and ask ourselves, ‘What would I do in that situation?’ It’s one thing reading an article and quite another when you are the IPPS with soaring ET. As you say though, we all have limits.

    I think there is a modus operandi for each of us, a tendency to do one thing or another. We can look back at past experiences, gauge what those tendencies are and estimate a reaction to a given scenario. It can only be an estimate though. Let’s just hope we don’t find ourselves in a similar situation where we have to put our theories to the test! Xx

    1. JB says:

      TS, it certainly is. I loved that comment you made, about just leaving in silence and letting everyone, guests included, work it out. The quiet dignity of it. I would so love to think that is exactly what I would do in that situation. I know I probably wouldn’t though. It’s a good lesson for me, know when to keep quiet and just leave! Thankfully, I have never endured a situation such as the one in the article, and I hope never to in the future! Xx

    2. Duchessbea says:

      Truthseeker6157
      I have to say, you write and sound very like HG. This isn’t you by any chance HG infiltrating the ranks?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        No and TS6157 does not write like me at all.

        1. Violetta says:

          So what is an ISMR? I can’t find that particular combination of initials in the acronym list. Is MR mid-ranger?

        2. Duchessbea says:

          HG,
          I apologise to you. I can’t believe I lowered you and equalled you to someone as uncouth, childish and quite frankly ridiculously immature as Truthseeker6157. I have seen Kindergarten with better writing and diction than that novel Truthseeker6157 projected and subjected everybody to reading. I have to be honest, I feel asleep half way through. It was the best nap I’ve had for a while.
          Truthseeker6157’s demeanour came across as an uncontrollable rageful attack. One of the highlighted points about narcissists is that they hate criticism. I think Truthseeker6157 has forgotton her mask and has forgot to put across a good facade and is showing all of us her true colours. I am aware that Truthseeker6157 has not done her test for which cadre. I think Truthseeker6157 will get an awful surprise when Truthseeker6157 finds out what cadre she really is. Based on her over the top angry outburst and aggressive projections, Truthseeker6157 is very much not an Empath.
          I feel awful thinking about how you HG, must be feeling after being compared to Truthseeker6157.
          I don’t go around insulting people or trying to hurt people.
          It would mean the world to me HG if you would accept my apology.
          I am deeply sorry for causing you such distress by my comparison of you with Truthseeker6157. It makes me feel truly awful.
          HG, I am very sorry and I truly hope you will accept my apology.
          Thank you HG.
          Sincerely,
          Duchessbea.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            If you think that somebody making a point and supporting it with observed evidence equates to “an uncontrollable rageful attack” you have a strange idea of what amounts to an uncontrollable rageful attack.
            I have not seen evidence of TS6157 behaving as “uncouth, childish and quite frankly ridiculously immature”, nor “over the top angry outburst and aggressive projections”.

          2. BC30 says:

            “over the top angry outburst and aggressive projections” Have you met TS6157? 😂😂😂 Cadres say otherwise.

          3. Fiddleress says:

            DB: “I feel awful thinking about how you HG, must be feeling after being compared to Truthseeker6157.
            I don’t go around insulting people or trying to hurt people.”
            Now, I am not the expert, but I would say ‘word salad’ or “contradiction”, the second usually being an element of the first.

            Oh and I forget: projection (when you say that TS is of Kindergarten level).

            I loved TS’s message (the one you are referring to), there was no rage or anger in it whatsoever, it was extremely logical and very accurate.

            In short, your haughtiness says it all.

          4. Violetta says:

            Jaysus, shut the door.

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        No and HG does not write like me at all.

        1. Duchessbea says:

          Truthseeker 6157
          You took the words right out of my mouth. It certainly is quite evident from the childish writing and very immature response that you gave. It was like a novel, it was so long I actually feel asleep half way through.
          I can’t believe, I lowered HG Tudor to your level. I must apologise to HG.

        2. Duchessbea says:

          PS. Truthseeker 6157, I hope you noticed that I responded with indifference and didn’t rise or react?
          Take note Truthseeker 6157, if you do the same, you will feel so much better within yourself. This site is about bettering yourself. Not trying to get one up on someone else. You need to work on your ET and LT. You have a lot of work to do in both of those aspects. It will do you the world of good and it will stop you losing the run of yourself.

          Sending you Much Love,

          Duchessbea.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Duchessbea,

            Thank you for your comments and observations. Understood.

    3. BC30 says:

      TS, I’ve thought about this a lot, like, a lot a lot. Why did I stay so long as MMR’s DLS when I “knew” what was going on? How can I say I wouldn’t have put up with the abuse and shenanigans as an IPPS?

      As DLS, MMR was already cheating, so I accepted it. It’s not as if I was “faithful” him, although he thought so. HG says it was his magical thinking. I’m ashamed that I was ever the “other woman.” Never again! Not because of the narcissist, but because I’ve grown and won’t do that to another woman.

      The reason I know I couldn’t have stayed as IPPS is because there are things that narcissists do, which he never did to me because of my role as DLS. Things I could not have accepted. It is in my nature to give ONE chance. It is in my nature to go no contact. That is what eventually happened with MMR.

      I’m fairly certain my 1st husband was a narcissist, but haven’t done a ND yet. I snapped on a Tuesday. I went directly to the airport, got on a flight, never to be seen again.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey BC30,

        I have thought similar.
        I was with the MMRA Somatic for around a year I think, bit longer maybe. He was the only rebound relationship I’ve had and was directly after Love of My Life Guy.

        I did care but if I’m entirely honest I knew it wouldn’t be a long term thing. You might have realised similar as DLS. I ended it because he couldn’t respect boundaries. I didn’t feel upset. I ended it cleanly.

        All of my relationships have had a tipping point where something has happened that I just won’t accept. In my head I just switch off and I’m planning my departure until I am in a position to be able to go. The online narc was the only exception. I didn’t reach a tipping point because as you say, I wasn’t the IPPS. At least not in the usual sense.

        I can see you just saying ‘Nah’ and jumping on a plane and disappearing! I get that. The decision is made, no point hanging around.

        Different narcs, different situations. It’s tough to know how we would behave in every scenario. ‘Form’ is form though so I think there will be a tendency to repeat a usual pattern.

        Xx

  13. Eliza says:

    🤔 Now I have a craving for whipped cream, strawberries and short cake 😫
    Ever had Baileys flavored whipped cream ? It’s the Bomb !! 😋

    1. A Victor says:

      Haha, Eliza, that is the most lighthearted response to this article I’ve seen! It does not lead me to wanting cake. Lol! No, more to wanting to take that IPPS out of that situation. But, your comment was funny!! 🙂

      1. Eliza says:

        Lol-Oh No! I was commenting on another comment AV – I am not good at finding the right spot 😜 A comment that mentioned strawberries and whipped cream …. I got lost in the craving 😂 and forgot the Real subject 😉

        1. A Victor says:

          Haha, I see! It is a bit tricky sometimes, to find the right place. I have learned that WordPress offers the best option, that I’ve found, for placement of them. You can go directly to the comment you want to respond to and there is an option there. Also, if someone responds to you, you can set it to show up under the notification bell and reply directly from there, as well as like them. I still thought your comment was light hearted fun!

          1. Eliza says:

            I am trying to hang on to my sense of humor and fun – not easy these days is it ? HG’s youtube series on Harry’s wife has had me HIGHLY entertained. 😈 I’m very naughty 😜

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi Eliza, I don’t think I have ever lost my sense of humor save during the final year or two my ex was with us and that stuck with me for a year or two after he was gone. I remember the exact moment I realized it and brought it bank immediately. Now I will be sure to not allow it to be lost again! I am sorry to read you are struggling with this. Why are you naughty that the Harry’s wife video series is entertaining? I find it so also!

          3. Eliza-BadGrammer says:

            I hope you find this AV !
            My “Catholic Guilt” most likely on the subject of me enjoying the analysis of Harry’s Wife …. 😜 I loved the Royal Weddings!!
            What a cold bucket of water on the fun Meeeeagain has been! I enjoyed watching Diana’s boys grow up and I loved them 💕

            So glad you have your sense of humor mojo back ! We NEED it ! I feel like it’s my Armor sometimes – letting things go with a laugh and a shrug can be so good for us 💗

  14. A Victor says:

    This is one of the ways my mother used to intimidate and control us. Not the cake but the in your face hissed whisper threats. There was no standing up to it back then.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      AV, that is how Lesser did it a number of times, not just to me. I was absolutely mortified to witness him do that to a male colleague (right in the face and shouting) and seeing it like that – why the fk I did not GOSO then? Cos I needed the job….. Lesser was at fault and he didn’t like it when the general manager stepped up to speak with him (both are Lessers)….

      1. A Victor says:

        The ULA owned a business and fired people at the drop of a hat. He told me if they’re not performing their job, out they go. Truly appliances. He did help me grow in my understanding of how to do my job better and make myself more valuable to my boss, that was actually very helpful. But it seemed he had dropped women in the same way and that was concerning to me. He actually had one that had escaped, said he’d dodged a real bullet with that one. I came to believe it was the other way around.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Yes, if a narcissist is the role of owner of business – all the rules would be changed whenever he needed to assert control. I now understand why so many businesses are “sole traders”, or not registered as per authorities. It leaves it wide open for tax fraud etc too – as well as ‘hood-wnking’ accountants or employing someone who would be manipulated to ‘cook’ the books (if the owner of the business does not know how to do it). One narcissist was unaware of my very sharp eye when it came to book-keeping & receipts. The quick hiring and firing would also avoid the “reason” to issue formal contracts of employment, usually get rid of the staff before the ‘probationary’ period was up (I’ve seen this with one brilliant & absolutely right for the job – she was too vocal for them). These types of business owners are less likely to have up to date legal requirements in place ie H&S, staff welfare facilities etc. All sorts of ‘under-hand’ methods – as long as the money keeps coming in and the ‘perfect’ fuel-laden appliances……..

          1. A Victor says:

            When I did a background check on the summer narc, he came up clean except for one tax issue, related to a business he’d owned. I thought I would just let it sit there and see if he would ever mention it. He did, toward the end of our time together. He was very excited as it would be dropping off the books in just a couple of months giving him a clean slate to get his business back up and running the way he preferred. He’d downsized for the 10 years he’d owed the debt, so they couldn’t see/take his money. That should’ve told me a lot but I wasn’t aware yet of what I was dealing with and he did give me a seemingly good story for why it was there, of course none of it his fault. But I was already getting wise to him and it only added to reasons to go, not reason to stay.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            What you describe, it does appear to be a “common” theme LOL. Lesser had bankrupty – lasts 7 years in UK. MR was just as as bad with debts but not bankrupt, his daughter is though! I just thought that you know the expression “eyes are bigger than the stomach” ….. that is lower echelon narcissists and money !!! Pure and utter greed.

            Lesser’s son-in-law opened so many companies, majority of the shut down by companies house…..he knew what to do, he was a nasty character too.

  15. mollyb5 says:

    HG …a real empath who has actually been abused physically and emotionally would know what you’re capable of . Someone with true financial power and the connections with the law& law makers as yourself would know you could destroy an empaths life very easily. But I wonder how your sessions with the good doctors are going ? HG , do you still go visit with them ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Your initial two sentences are entirely accurate.
      I continue to have interaction with the good doctors but less often and more usually remotely.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        “Remotely”, as in remote control ? 😉

        1. HG Tudor says:

          As in distanced.

        2. A Victor says:

          Asp Emp, giggle…

  16. Chihuahuamum says:

    This ones a favorite. I do wish we could’ve seen what happened after the party. I get the feeling by how afraid she was that this narcissiat was physically abusive. I don’t blame her for yawning and rolling her eyes it gets boring to watch someone boost their ego and play the same part all the time. You see this all the time with stepford wives of narcissists. They are expected to act a certain way to contribute to the facade. Many of them are also victim narcissists and are in it for the money and security. A sad existence.

    1. Duchessbea says:

      Very much agree.

  17. Duchessbea says:

    HG, I would relish sitting there with a puss on me as long as a wet week, looking bored at every anecdote you told, watching you hold in your fury and trying your best to bite your snarl. I know that is not very Empathic of me, but knowing of your treatment of the poor unfortunate who was ensnared with you in this story, before, during and after this party, if I was her shoes, I would keep pressing every button to break your fake exterior and ruin your facade, in a very ladylike fashion of course, to let all and sundry know what you are. I would ensure I had gone on very expensive internet shopping trips with your Visa card/all your bank cards on the morning of the dinner party. I would finish by refashioning your suits, shirts, t-shirts, jeans, underwear and whatever else you wear. I would deliberately cause an argument with you, burst into tears and be insistent on not being able to be with you anymore, and leave the house that night with the dinner guests (I would need witnesses after all). GOSO. Very importantly, stay no contact. Wouldn’t that just be bliss.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It always entertains me to see kitty trying to claw.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Trying?! Trying, HG?!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Trying and failing.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Oh, I bet!

      2. Duchessbea says:

        Aww HG, you might be used to Kitties who claw, but you need to straighten up your tie and sharpen up your game for a Tigress who Purrs….

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yawn.

      3. BC30 says:

        Oh! Kitten bellies are the softest things. I could eat them! 😍

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Duchessbea,

      Is he worth it though? Stand up from the table, smile at the guests. He doesn’t deserve even a sideways glance.

      Wordlessly walk to the door, exit, drive away. He can work it out for himself. So can the guests.

      Kitty can’t be bothered with it anymore. 😜

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Such bravado yet when it comes to the defining moment how they falter.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Not necessarily bravado actually. My closest estimate as to the way I would behave based on how I tend to behave when a line is crossed. There’s no disputing that a line was crossed in the scenario above.

          Honestly though, I don’t think any of us truly know how we would react until we are met with the similar situation.

        2. JB says:

          Maybe the first time, HG, but everyone has their limits!

      2. JB says:

        Now this I love, TS!

        1. Duchessbea says:

          Ladies,
          You know HG is clutching at straws. You can feel it. You know he is just waiting to explode. Just like the story says, on the inside the fury is rising, the snarl is itching to come out, but the facade of the fake smile stays in place.
          While I’m relaxing on my chaise longue, wearing my Agent Provocateur Lingerie surrounded by diamonds and pearls (at HG’s expense of course), feeling like the pussycat enjoying her strawberries and cream. Licking the whipped cream off my finger never felt so good.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Not at all.

            You would be wearing nothing at my expense. One such as you would never be selected by me for such a role. Know your place.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            HG,

            ISMR?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            ISMR.

          4. Violetta says:

            Somebody’s been watching too many Taylor Swift videos.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Duchessbea,

            People have different ‘perspectives’ and opinions where HG is concerned, either on this blog or in his private life. He has explained why he has to keep these different aspects of his life separate. It is not just for his benefit. It is for everyone he has in the aspects of his life as well as all those that are on this blog and YouTube. It is about protection, confidentiality, legal reasons – the list goes on.

            Personally, I don’t think HG is ‘fake’, he is honest (where & when he needs to be), he is kind, generous and supportive.

            PS what you say in your first paragraph, I do not agree.

          6. Kiki says:

            Hahaa flirty flirty 🤣Duchesbea
            Trying to get HG hot and bothered

            Kiki

          7. Violetta says:

            Truthseeker6157:

            I sometimes forget the initials, unless they’re frequently used. Where do I look this up?

      3. Duchessbea says:

        Touche Truthseeker6157. Brilliant. A case of deja vu comes to mind with what you said.

        1. Duchessbea says:

          Relax. This was purely a little experiment to see if HG Tudor would react to being treated in a somewhat similar manner to the way he treated this poor unfortunate in the story (and other previous unfortunate women of HG). As a SE, I do not go out of my way to hurt people. I certainly was surprised to get such a response from one or two people.
          I have never suggested that HG is a fake and not who he says he is. I don’t know where someone managed to come up with that response, but sweetie you were way off the mark.
          I have the highest respect, regard and gratitude for HG Tudor, and he knows this because I have told him.
          As HG has told us numerous times, he is a narcopath and has no empathy. Therefore he reacted exactly like I thought he would. A very cool exterior and a very smooth, polished, and to the point reply to me. My little experiment was telling and I bow out with the greatest of respect for HG. No matter how hard, or how many times people presently or in the past have possibly thought they were getting one over on HG Tudor, they never will get one over on HG Tudor, and it quite possibly has never happened. Today proves it again. I wasn’t trying to get one over on HG, I just wanted to see what, if any reaction he would give. HG didn’t give any reaction. He responded, nothing more. HG is what he says he is and there is no messing about with that. I bow to the Master.
          There is no consideration for ISMR etc. I have taken HG’s test for what cadre and I did it under a different name. I have already said this to HG before. I was raised in a family of narcs. My twin sister and older sisters are all narcs. I am the only Empath in the family. But I did learn a thing or two from their behaviour. My older sister is also on this site too, but she and I are here for very different reasons. As many of you, I am sure can attest to, it is not easy growing up in a family where you are effectively the odd one out, all your sisters have the same type of personality and yet you know something feels off but you don’t know what. After a long, mind boggling relationship broke up, I found HG, and it is thanks to HG, that I now know what that long relationship and my Ex are all about and what my sisters are and always will be. It is not easy, but if you follow HG’s methods it is the best and it works.
          Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But I was surprised by the reactions of one or two people whose Emotional Thinking seemed to get the better of them.
          HG continuously points out that we have to work on ET and LT. It was very clear from the responses that one or two are not doing that, by how quick they were to judge and as such are hampering their own recovery. May I suggest that you concentrate on bettering and strengthening you ET and LT.
          HG, with the greatest of respect, no offence to you was intended, I just wanted to see if you would react to receiving somewhat light similar treatment to the treatment received by your girlfriends. You practice what you say. You didn’t react. You responded.
          The best advice dealing with narcs as HG says is GOSO and NC. But if you have to deal with any narcissists in your life, respond with indifference just like HG does. Don’t react.

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Sorry Duchess, nice try.

            1. It is extremely unusual for a Super Empath to announce themselves as a SE. They will give their school when asked directly but they don’t announce it. Mid Rangers will announce as a SE as they believe that it indicates some form of superiority. It doesn’t. It’s a school, like any other school.

            2. The empaths here have no reason to push HG’s buttons. They know HG is a narcissistic psychopath and have no desire to test it for testing’s sake.

            3. You reference HG’s former IPPS’s as ‘doormats’ on a different thread.’ You suggest that he selects ‘doormats’ on purpose. I assume the implication being they are easier to control. An empath would NEVER describe another empath as a doormat. They might refer to themselves as having behaved like a doormat, but they will not use that term to refer to another empath. It’s disrespectful and stinks of false superiority. Wind up or no wind up, little test or no little test.

            4. The comments you made were bravado filled. Designed as a wind up or not, the pictures you painted were the imaginings of a narcissist not an empath, Super or otherwise.

            5. SE is a school not a cadre. You would know this had you taken the EDC.

            6. When I asked your opinion of the EDC on another thread you responded that you had no thoughts either way. Highly unusual. It indicates that you cannot make a comment on the EDC because you have no idea what the EDC entails.

            7. A name change for the EDC? Things that make you go, ‘hmmm’

            8. On the contrary, the way HG responded to you was very revealing. He talked down to you. ‘Know your place.’ I cannot claim to analyse HG accurately, but if I was a betting woman I would say he was addressing one of his own kind.

            9. There is no ET evident in this response. Only LT. Just because other empaths sense something is ‘off’ does not automatically mean they have high ET.

            10. Had you just stuck with your first comment and left it there, you might have been less obviously Mid Rangey. You didn’t. You kept on trying to assert control. I don’t buy in to your ‘little test’.

            Violetta, ‘ISMR’ is a marker I have seen HG use on YouTube. Given the context of its’ use, I interpret it to mean ‘Is Mid Range.’

          2. Asp Emp says:

            TS, BRAVO! BRAVO!

            Inner me skipping around in absolute excitement, going ‘woo hoo!’……. laughing.

            Excellently worded, loving the numbers too. Oh, yes, ten of them. Shoot Her Down! (after you’d fired the first 5, I’m yelling ‘my go now!’).

            Mid-Rangey…. laughing……

            Daammnnn, I held back – far too much when I responded. BTW, did you notice – she sent it to HERSELF, not me, not you directly……. ehem.

            Thank you so much, TS x

          3. A Victor says:

            When something seems off, even with a “long-time” commenter, it can be a case that they’re a narcissist? This is good for the fine-tuning maybe? Huh. This is really strange. Not sure what to think here…

          4. FoolMe1Time says:

            A Victor
            You absolutely never know who you are commenting with on here! I for one still have trouble deciding whether they are a narcissist or have narcissistic traits, although in time they will drop the mask and you will know for sure. I just chalk it up to another learning experience that HG and this blog provide. There is not another in the world that can compete! Xx

          5. A Victor says:

            Thank you for that FoolMe1Time, this has actually been very eye-opening and not a little upsetting. I will be more careful going forward, it makes me wonder what to trust. The learning is okay but it is so confusing. Is this because we are naive or gullible, that we have to learn this? Now that I have seen this once hopefully I will pick it up if it happens again. I will take your words as a suggestion and try to chalk it up as you said. Thank you again, very much.

          6. FoolMe1Time says:

            AV
            I would like to think we are neither naive or gullible but that we are simply human. Most people want to help and take people at there word, who would have thought that there are people out that simply put, wants our attention and emotions ( fuel ). What I try to do now is follow my gut instinct, look for those red flags, and what I feel is most important, follow the evidence! I have found this to be one of the greatest things HG has taught me. You cannot deny the evidence. To call someone a narcissist when you are not 💯 sure can hurt someone deeply, but to defend someone simply because in the past you have corresponded back and forth with that person is also wrong. I have done both in the past because I allow my emotional thinking to get in the way.
            We are all still learning on here and being confused at certain times is part of it, at those times I look to HG for the answers, even if he says nothing at all, follow the evidence AV and you will be just fine. 💞

          7. A Victor says:

            Thank you for this, it is helpful.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I read TS’s comment back to you. What she says is right. You have nothing to fear on this blog. I’m ok, now. I look forward to more of TS’s explaining her thoughts. 🙂

          9. Foreigner74 says:

            Happy to read this last comment of yours, Duchessbea. Challenging and provoking narcissists and psychopaths is extremely dangerous, especially when their fury is ignited. I went through it, as many of the readers of this blog, I suppose. It’s exactly how H.G. describes it. In those moments, terror is all you feel and there’s no space for pride or bravado. And you usually don’t expect it because you’ve done nothing bad (from your perspective of course). When it happened to me, I had only asked him (An UMRN) why he wasn’t paying attention to what I was saying. He got furious. “How dare you accuse me after all I’ve been doing for you?” is all I remember of his words, but I’ll never forget his dark furious eyes. I didn’t react at all and after a few minutes of horror, he calmed down. Two days later, when he was at work, I escaped. Therefore I too strongly recommend not to react and GOSO. With regard to your little “experiment” with H.G., it’s very much clear that it disturbed and concerned him less than a fly in a room. But It was obvious, he is the Ultra!

          10. Asp Emp says:

            Duchessbea, what did HG do to you personally to deserve being subjected to what he was subjected to from you? I slag off my past narcissists but not HG. Why are you ‘surprised’ by one or two people?

            Some people on this blog have a lot of respect for HG as a person. No doubt, they will say something if they feel someone has ‘crossed a line’ or have their facts wrong.

            HG’s words to you, directly, “Know your place” says it all.

            I am not your sweetie. HG has cognitive empathy – not ‘no empathy’.

            Suggest away all you like about MY LT / ET. I am the best judge on MY reactions, MY ‘recovery’ is brilliant. I am in a sublime position on that.

            I have narcissists in my life but they don’t know about their narcissism and I can have a friendship with them without their narcissism affecting me. I’ll choose who to have in my life. It’s how you manage your ET / LT around them.

            While HG gives his time & expertise where empowering empaths is concerned, there is a difference in being subjective, insulting and downright rude. HG is not an ‘object’, he is a man with very good intentions.

          11. Violetta says:

            TS:

            Posted to HG before I saw your answer. Thank you. I thought the “IS” was an abbreviation, not a word, and speculated above that it stood for “ImaginarySouce.”

          12. Violetta says:

            Asp Emp:

            And if his intentions aren’t good, the results are, where we are concerned. There are a number of substances, poisonous in sufficient amounts, that in smaller amounts are used as life-saving medicines.

          13. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, RE: “the results are, where we are concerned” – that’s it, hence my saying ‘good intentions’.

          14. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Violetta,

            I haven’t asked HG what ISMR means. I have only interpreted it that way due to the couple of instances I have seen it used.

            I am very wary of calling ‘narc’ on the blog. It isn’t my first thought when I read an unusual comment. Other than with the gulls of course! It doesn’t make me feel particularly good if I’m honest.

            You can see my thinking outlined in my comment to Duchessbea. I have spoken to her before. Whilst the name is the same, this does not sound like Duchessbea to me. There could be an element of truth to the ‘narc sister on the blog’.

            If HG tells me I am wrong. I will apologise.

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            I wanted to make my thinking on it clear. So I listed it. I don’t call ‘narc’ lightly but there were too many things that didn’t sit well with me. The doormat comment in particular. I can’t imagine any empath ever referring to another in that way in any context. The later talking down to you and snipe at my sounding like HG follows a similar theme.
            Gawd, I bet HG threw up a bit in his mouth at that. Me with my punctuation errors, I can only imagine!

          16. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you. Yes, absolutely appalling behaviour from her. I agree with you in relation to how HG may have felt – not at your comments, nor mine – just how it’s all coming from one person and then treating us like that when HG knows yu and me better than that.

            LOL, I’d just thought I’d better start washing my laundry twice from now on before hanging it out to dry 😉

            Thank you for your support to me and HG. It’s much appreciated that you also spoke up.

            HG, thank you SO much x

          17. Violetta says:

            TS:

            That was beautifully analyzed.

            This is one of subtle distinctions HG makes that I’m only gradually learning to spot. Whatever he’s like in his personal life, he is unfailingly courteous here if we are, and will even join in a little teasing to lighten the frequently grim subject we are studying.

            There are times, however, where I haven’t been able to tell whether someone is trying to hijack the site or is a traumatized wreck lashing out in all directions out of panic rather than malice. In the 2nd case, rather than suavely ripping the individual a new orifice or 6 as I had expected, HG will use calm logic to allay the paranoia, so the person can stop hyperventilating or flailing randomly and start/resume learning.

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Violetta,

            Thank you for posting your thoughts and for considering mine. I totally agree, it is difficult to see exactly what is going on when disagreements occur. Like you, I’m learning to pick out subtle signs but I have a way to go yet.

            I agree also that HG does ‘take it on the chin’ when he sees an empath lash out against him on the blog. He redirects, he uses logic. He behaves differently with his own kind.

            I find online communication far tougher in the sense of getting an accurate picture of what is actually going on. It feels like I’m flying blind. I think this thread will teach me quite a lot. Xx

          19. MP says:

            A Victor, I don’t believe every accusation that gets thrown in here. Sometimes accusations of narcissism gets thrown out of a heated disagreement. Is I really healthy to accuse someone you have never met of narcissism just because you had a disagreement? I’m not saying that it was the case here but it has happened before. Some people have a tendency to accuse people of narcissism prematurely. It can be traumatic for someone who has already gone through so much verbal abuse in life and went here to learn and understand what they experienced in life.

          20. Asp Emp says:

            MP, thank you for “It can be traumatic for someone who has already gone through so much verbal abuse in life and went here to learn and understand what they experienced in life”.

          21. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            You don’t need to be on guard on the blog. It’s a safe place to discuss and share thoughts. To my knowledge, and I’m fairly confident here, HG doesn’t allow narcissists to stroll in here at the drop of a hat. He allows the obvious ones in so that we can learn. These are the gulls that Violetta jokingly refers to. The Heyoka that visits occasionally etc. It’s clear, obvious and it’s good training for us as empaths. HG gives them a little run out, then they are disappeared again. For HG to know someone is a narcissist they have to comment a few times. They comment, he spots them, then it’s game over.

            Empaths make mistakes. None of us are perfect and sometimes debate gets heated. Empathy can get eroded by an external stressor and we might lash out. An empath might lash out at HG, sometimes at another empath. If a commenter is new, it’s hard to tell if this lashing out is by an injured empath or by a narcissist. Again, we look for red flags and patterns in behaviour.

            The long term commenters on the blog are empaths. That’s fact. They might be grumpy empaths occasionally, but empaths they are. Please don’t look over your shoulder wondering if the person you are talking to is a narcissist. They won’t be. We don’t all have to get on and connect equally with everyone here, that’s just life. Similarly we don’t need to be on the lookout for narcissists all the time in here either.

            HG asking Duchessbea for proof is exactly right. It might not be easy to prove if the account info is being accessed in the same home, hopefully there will be enough to go on.

            Once Duchessbea has or hasn’t done this I’ll explain more of my thinking. This is the only time I have called narc on the blog and I had specific reasons for doing so. HG left the thread to run and there will be a reason for that. It’s unusual, but there will be some valuable learning to draw from it.

            Xx

          22. FoolMe1Time says:

            TS,

            Looking over your shoulder, being on guard, and looking for red flags is exactly what you should do on this blog. I agree for the most part that most on here are empaths, I disagree that the only narcissists on here are the ones that fly in when HG leaves the door open, I speak from experience that some narcissists come on board and even HG is not 💯 sure if they are or aren’t until that masks slip. Empaths have kind hearts and most want to help protect and in sure new people come on here feeling accepted and unafraid to comment, sometimes being the one that supports them is exactly what they ( the narcissist ) are looking for. Remember most narcissists do not know what they are. Please be careful TS. Xx

          23. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey FM1T,

            Really, I didn’t know that ! I could have sworn that HG had commented previously that he lets the gulls in occasionally but that narcs aren’t allowed to reside on his blog.

            I see what you mean, it takes time for a Mid Ranger to show themselves as they believe themselves to be good people. There are indicators, but we need to see repetition to be sure. HG would be first to spot this, but even he needs to see the mask slip. Once it does, I assume they are shown the door! Some will be more obvious than others.

            Thank you for the comment, I understand what you are driving at. Head up eyes open, I will, thank you FM1T. Xx

          24. A Victor says:

            Hi TS, I have been watching all of this with interest, you and Asp Emp being very brave by the way, braver than I currently am. One thing it has made me wonder is regarding assuming narcissists would be shown the door. The blog is public, if there is no upheaval, they could be quite useful for our learning. If we can pick them out here, not that we would say anything necessarily, we can hone our skills of detection. Also, even if we are not willing to go so far as to “call narc” even if only to ourselves, it seems like a good place to bolster skills of assertiveness, when we see something awry, speak up. Not all the time, some things would not concern us. But, that is just what you and Asp Emp did here. It also caused you to write out a fabulous list of the questions you have regarding the other person, more learning. All that to say, I do think we need to be aware here, not suspicious or worried, just aware, and this exchange made me realize that. It makes sense to me, HG can use their presence to help our learning, he will not let it go too far, so it is a safe place to do so. This is what I recently wrote on another thread that I did not receive in my home growing up, instruction on who to trust and how to know, and also a safe place to practice those skills so that I would not be as vulnerable out in the real world. These conflicts make me quite uncomfortable, that is putting it mildly actually, but maybe HG sees an opportunity and that is why he would allow it to continue. I really have been impressed with what you picked up and succinctly stated, I learned a lot from that! Asp Emp as well. Thank you both for that!

          25. Asp Emp says:

            AV, thank you for your words. ‘Brave’ – I was pissed off! Then I ‘swam’ the emotional seas – again. Even though it was a difficult couple of days – in some way, it was positive for it to happen – it is now available for ‘visual’ learning for some people (present and future). Further insights into narcissism, the affects of narcissistic abuse, how different empaths react / respond (including their way of ‘thinking’), you know all this.

            I say positive – because instead of people sharing their experiences on this blog, in this instance and on this “occasion” – it was ‘live’ learning / interaction.

            “HG can use their presence to help our learning, he will not let it go too far, so it is a safe place to do so” – yes, it’s a safe place on this blog. Even though I was directly affected, I have to say now, HG did right by moderating and allowing the comments through – he knew how I would react / respond. I am glad TS did ‘take part’ by detailing her list of points. I was not happy to see her being treated in responses by the ‘perpetrator’ because of her support to others on this blog, me included. She did not deserve to be spoken to like that. Neither did I, to a degree.

            I would say that from my ‘experiences’, I did not learn anything new – there were certainly ‘reminders’ of my alcoholic narcissist mother, her physical and verbal abuse when drunk. There is a big difference in between being a child and an adult experiencing alcohol abuse by a narcissist, through a narcissist and being the ‘brunt’ of it. So, if it came across (and it did) that I didn’t “care” because I understood perfectly RE: narcissism & alcohol.

            Sometimes “lessons being learned the hard way” can be the only way to learn – (for those present / future KTN students) – harsh, but my saying this is indicative of my education and how far my ET / LT can be ‘measured’. I did ok, I think. Maybe ‘passed the exam with flying colours’, including the black and white ones 😉

            I also could see how other empaths were (either quietly or voicing) offering support to all concerned / involved. I appreciated that. I don’t respect HG any less for this whole ‘experience’ of the last couple of days, he did respond / comment as appropriate yet it was not ‘heeded’, despite prompts from other empaths.

            HG, once again, thank you for your support. Thank you for moderating the comments. Thank you for your time. And, even, thank you for the ‘lesson’.

          26. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I think your assessment is exactly right. My view was that only gulls were allowed in here. I take on board what FM1T said though and it does make sense. Some commenters post irregularly and if looking for repetition of behaviour that would take time. Not everyone chooses or is in a position to take the detectors etc. HG will spot them early though, very early.

            Empaths here are at varying stages of their journey. Some more ‘vulnerable’ in that respect than others and with different concerns about moving forward than others. HG reads us regularly. He knows where we are at in terms of recovery, strengths and weaknesses. The learning has to be flexible to accommodate that. As we talked about on another thread, what feels like conflict to one, feels like debate to another.

            This thread was different for me. I don’t feel comfortable accusing people of being narcissists because I don’t consider myself expert in the field. Get it wrong and it is damaging to the accuser and unfair on the accused. This is why I used the acronym, to ask for confirmation. The fact the acronym might mean something else cast later doubt haha! That said, it’s wheels within wheels. HG saw the previous comments and would likely guess what I was asking. Soon I won’t have to say anything, just put dots! Something for him to look forward to then, good oh.

            I felt strongly about what I had read. The comments felt like nails down a chalk board and they screamed narcissist. HG can defend himself, so it wasn’t that, although I do have high expectations in terms of being respectful for what we have here. Respect or lack thereof is one of my own disengagement triggers.

            I couldn’t deal with the doormat comment. At all. It was unjust, incorrect and grossly unfair, particularly given that the targets of that comment were undoubtedly empaths and worse still, not here to defend themselves. People should be permitted to defend themselves.

            I’m processing various things. In many ways I behaved similarly before, during and after, to the way I did with the online narc. I suspect I also made the same mistake for the same reason. There is still an element of doubt for me as to the possibility of two sisters commenting. Two DB comments did feel very different. Extremely difficult to verify that on the blog itself. As such I am not prepared to pursue it further.

            I have learned things from the thread. Xx

          27. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            I just read your comment to AV. Your take on the thread.
            You were clearly of the same view as me because you had also spotted other comments from Duchessbea on other parts of the blog. I hadn’t seen the ‘whining’ comment until you referenced it on the other thread. You’re right, that was completely unacceptable also.

            The other empaths making their presence known was very kind and supportive. I appreciated that too Asp. HG confirming my past behaviour on the blog was also welcome confirmation of the way I hope I am perceived by others. I appreciated that very much. I didn’t respond to his comment so as not to inflame Duchessbea further. I estimate HG would know that.

            I had made my point and I was done once I saw her response. That’s very me. From that point on, Duchessbea could call me all the names under the sun and it wouldn’t impact. I’ve already switched off. I read, but there’s no impact. So never worry about me Asp, I’m always ok xx.

            Really, I was trying to comment very little from that point on. I didn’t want Duchessbea to feel like she was being lynched. So it wasn’t that I didn’t welcome the support. It was that I didn’t want things to look like a group against one individual. In fairness the empaths here only came in to defend when Duchessbea began using provocation and insult. I think that’s right. I would have commented too in the similar situation, for the similar reasons.
            So I wasn’t being ungrateful for the support if that’s how it came across. I just didn’t want to fuel a fire. DB would also be getting fuel from comments and my view was to keep that to a minimum.

            It felt very uncomfortable in many ways. I have spoken to Duchessbea in the past. Not a huge amount but enough to form a positive opinion. I couldn’t deny what was in front of me though and I couldn’t not react due to the reasons I gave to AV.

            One DB or two? That is above my pay grade! Only HG can make the call on that.

          28. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. Now, you can see why I was getting more upset RE: other thread comments – being unacceptable. Your second paragraph – totally agree with you – in relation to the empaths and HG making their presence known. Of course, it felt uncomfortable for you – as well as others. No, it didn’t come across that anyone was not giving support, at all. I think people were surprised about the whole “education”.

            LOL, one DB or two? For now, I’d say, one is too many LOL. Was it twins, older sister? The last comment posted – dual DB? Either way, it’s slunk off. I am aware that I am more emotionally responsive than you are – hence you responding in a different manner. You & me (and HG) are fine xx

          29. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            “I am aware that I am more emotionally responsive than you are.”

            Good. I thought you were, just wanted to make sure. Xx

          30. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you xx

      4. Fiddleress says:

        TS, there was no more reply button under your great and very clear message with the points that you make, but I want to say: well done! I totally agree with you on the “doormat” comment.
        That duchess’s style reminds me so much of narcex’s jumbled prose, it really makes me laugh.
        But the “doormat” comment does not.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Fiddleress,

          As you know, I didn’t make that comment lightly. No need to explain, I know you know. Xx

        2. Violetta says:

          Shirkette at my old job said she wasn’t going to be a doormat to her lead teacher, implying that I was being one with mine. I said I preferred to lick my battles.

          Unless she was next in their cross-hairs, Shirkette is now in the same room with GrinchLady. Oh, to be a fly on the wall…

          Bad, ET! Bad, BAD ET! No biscuit for you!

          1. Violetta says:

            @#$&!

            *Pick my battles

          2. NarcAngel says:

            V
            I’ll assume you said pick your battles to her. Lick would have been an unfortunate error that may have strengthened her position haha.

  18. Asp Emp says:

    One of my favourite articles, so good to read it again.

    “No raised voices. No smashed plates. No slamming doors”- ah, there it is. So good to read that I am not the only person who is ‘guilty’ of doing as such. Laughing.

    My comment on an earlier post of this article “I would have still served that cake to the guests, apologising for the fact that some rat got to it first”- ah, the attitude. Sublime satisfaction.

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