Chrissy Teigen : A Very Sinking Narcissist? Part One

223 thoughts on “Chrissy Teigen : A Very Sinking Narcissist? Part One

  1. Abw Flying says:

    Re: ‘Correct me if I’m wrong’

    Blimey me…!

  2. Violetta says:

    Ah, Narc retribution! Rare pleasure to see THEM pay the price.

    And while Teegan-Taygen’s too stupid to put up much of a facade, Meghan Markle is busily shooting her own facade in the arse.

    DM headline:

    “Meghan is ready for ‘brutal showdown’ with Buckingham Palace in bullying probe: Duchess demands ‘point by point’ breakdown of claims and will ‘dispute them ALL’, source claims”

    What she doesn’t get is the palace (despite her complaints) initially smoothed over rumors of continual staff turnover, including a night nanny, plus bullying other people’s staff (hot tea, anyone?). If they stop doing so & let her refute the allegations “point-by-point” as she wishes, she is done for. It will be like the courtroom scene in The Caine Mutiny, where Queeg thinks he is vindicating himself when he is actually confirming the defense’s case.

    If the palace “men in grey suits” want to be really sadistic, they will advise MM, in her own best interests–possibly with straight faces–NOT to have the specific allegations or her specific rebuttals made public.

    We all know what she does when she is advised.

  3. Violetta says:

    Have continued to listen to this series on yt. I think Teegan-Taygan’s a lot like GrinchLady: Lower Mid-range, mostly Lesser traits, making it into Mid-range by a nano-thin use of facade.

    I forget where HG placed Markle on the Tudorscope, but I believe she is at least one step higher. Her facade contradicts itself regularly, but you have to watch for a cycle or two before you can see that. Middle Mid-range?

    1. A Victor says:

      Markle is a MMRA, same as my ex, that’s how I remember it.

  4. mollyb5 says:

    HG ..do you think you are becoming a cult leader ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No

      (The Aggro Index stands at 1.02 %)

      1. Violetta says:

        Oh dear, now what am I to do with the tasteful shrine in NY living room that I repurposed when I realized Neil Diamond was a false Messiah?

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Violetta,

          We were on the same wavelength here. Any opportunity for a pun!

        2. WhoCares says:

          Haha!

      2. mollyb5 says:

        Is that your control index , HG??

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, it demonstrates the number of comments which are argumentative, labelling, insulting etc against the overall number of comments to demonstrate as a piece of evidence that conflict/nasty comments etc is very rare in this environment. It has been done to counter the baseless allegations that are occasionally made and is commensurate with my teaching of “go to the evidence” that I advocate to those I consult with.

          (The Aggro Index stands at 0.87%)

          1. SParham says:

            I Googled the Aggro Index when I first saw it. I thought that HG was into agricultural economics from what I could find haha. It’s nice to see that the percentage of negativity stays low.

          2. mollyb5 says:

            HG ..I remember years ago , I could come on to this blog and learn a lot ! It seems quite different now 🙁

          3. A Victor says:

            Mollyb5, maybe you learn less now because you already know most of it? If it’s really because there’s less to learn here now, I am sad, that means we have somehow diminished the quality of the blog. But, I still learn but that’s because I didn’t know anything when I first arrived, and the more I learn, the less there is to learn, so it might seem, at some point, like I’m not able to learn as much. Did that make sense? I should go to sleep.

      3. SParham says:

        It’s funny that a cult reference is being made. I was wondering at one point if that was the case? Instead of gathering subjects it’s more like a captivity release. I can’t speak for others but I have felt much better and am physically doing better since I found HG. I know that he could give a shit if I disappeared forever so I don’t feel trapped at all. It’s really unlike anything I’ve experienced before. Veeery eye opening and freeing.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Invariably, the cult allegation is raised by unaware narcissists envious of my success and exhibiting contempt towards my educated readers. (I do not include Mollyb5 in any such suggestion – she asked a question and did not make an allegation)

          1. SParham says:

            It was speaking to my daughter that sparked the cult thought. I don’t think she’s a narcissist but she has many narcissistic traits. When she lived at home I had two control freaks to contend with, she and her father. My son thinks it’s great I’ve finally found real answers and advice. I asked him if this appeared to be a cult, he laughed and said “fuck no”. He’s noticed the positive changes and is mentioning HG’ name into his LE career. He meets many abuse victims that get lost in the well meaning, but largely unsuccessful, help networks. Our state has to file domestic abuse charges as many victims recant and drop their own charges. The level of domestic abuse calls in my area are sky high. It’s one part of the job that makes it scary in my mom role. If my son sees HG’ work beneficial enough to suggest his name to much worse off victims that’s saying something.

          2. A Victor says:

            My kids think it’s great that I’m learning here too, no cult concerns at all.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Molly,

      It looks like House of Tudor sold out of the ‘ Long black cape with hood.’ Glad I got in there early with my order. It’s a bit ‘Scottish Widow’ but I quite like it.

      1. A Victor says:

        Is there one in pink??

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          AV,

          I believe the colour is described as puce!

          1. A Victor says:

            Oh, haha, Thai can stay in the store then.

        2. JB says:

          AV, I am replying to your reply to me from further down the thread here, hopefully you will see it..as more replies get posted, it gets harder to find a reply option!

          I haven’t consulted with HG, no. Finances don’t permit, neither do current circumstances (I am very rarely alone!), and to be honest I am kind of terrified about talking to any more narcissists on the phone!

  5. Truthseeker6157 says:

    S Parham.

    That’s such a lovely comment. You have found the right place to learn everything you need to know about narcissism. As an empath you really do need to know!

    It sounds lovely, living on the side of a mountain, I’m envious haha! I’m English, I live in the country, pretty, quaint. I lived in the US for 10 years, so I’m bilingual!

    Your being surrounded by narcissists, sadly sounds familiar and there are many here who are in or have escaped similar situations. You aren’t alone.

    I know what you mean. You are the keeper of many secrets. People tell you their life stories but you keep your own to yourself. I’m similar. I’m not very good at asking for help either I’m used to being the helper.

    You can be a magnet for narcissists without being in the Magnet Cadre. This video explains it really well. We stand out to narcissists. They spot us so we need to get pretty skilful at spotting them too.

    https://youtu.be/PZq0ukZ0brg

    I arrived here just over a year ago. I was at a very low ebb and knew nothing about narcissism when I arrived. I’m a reader too, although I enjoy listening to the YouTube videos when I’m out with the dog or tasking. Between these platforms, the Knowledge Vault and the consultations, you’ll learn fast. More importantly, what you do learn will be accurate and practical. It’s comforting to be in a place with others that actually understand you and your situation. I’m sure you’ll find great benefit from being with everyone here on the blog. Xx

    1. SParham says:

      I love living in the country. It’s getting harder to maintain the land as I age though. I was raised near the ocean in SE Florida until ‘83. I could easily adapt to that lifestyle too. 🤗

      I can’t stay out of the Knowledge Vault. My main goal in learning initially was how to deal with narcs at work. I’ve been attacked twice, by two different co workers, years apart. Both were older men that were all over the place in their personalities. Even though I’m easy going and work hard I really thought that it was me and somehow I deserved it. My normal cop son said f no and to press charges. My husband is a narc so his opinion was to sue and get rich. I want to prevent any future narc actions in the work place and HG’ specific work advice is arming me. I really want to GOSO from my marriage. I need to be strategic in that dynamic though. I believe he’s in the middle lesser category and he’d likely to react violently. My kids are in their mid twenties and settling into their futures. I’d like to stay “stable” as long as I can for them. Plus, I wasted 25 years building a business only to be squeezed out. Hobbies and late in life degrees helps land jobs but damn…. The thought of starting all over again is daunting.

      I’m so happy and relieved I’m here. It means the world to me to connect with those that get it. This is a special, safe place on the internet along with HG’ YouTube channel.

      1. SParham says:

        I just listened to the magnet video. It makes total sense. I thought that I was in the clear not having that cadre, haha. I have a stout geyser cadre, apparently that’s entertaining. I’ve often thought if I’d just let myself go and act rude it would help. I just can’t do it though. I need a miniature HG in my pocket to tell narcissists off. 😁

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        SParham,

        I’m glad you found the video helpful. The book Sitting Target is similar but goes into far more detail as to exactly what empathic and special traits various narcissists are subconsciously (for the most part) looking for. You can also search the various empath cadres in the menu bar for more information on those.

        I know what you mean about the Knowledge Vault. I can’t stay out of it either! So many useful items and it caters to so many questions. It grows with your understanding too, and keeps growing! If you are looking for something specific many of us can point you in the right direction, so just let us know.

        Your experience at work sounds awful. You don’t expect to go to work and have to deal with that do you? It must have been very unsettling. A typical empath reaction to question if you had done something to provoke it. We always seem to look to our own behaviours first when we are searching for the reasons as to why things happen. Fortunately I haven’t been negatively impacted in a work scenario. Yet.

        Have you done the NDC on your husband? It would be useful to know what type of narcissist he is. Once you know that and you read more about his specific school, you can better estimate how he will respond to things going forward. This will be useful for you when / if you decide to GOSO.

        Keep reading, I think the more you understand, the clearer any life decisions will become. Between all of the empaths here, there will always be someone who has been through something similar, so there will always be someone to talk things through with. A consultation before making any big decisions is also definitely worth thinking about. It’s always good to have a solid plan. Xx

        1. SParham says:

          Can you please direct me to groping by the narcissist? So far I have found the answer to every query I can come up with but that one. I never receive hugs and kisses. There is nothing tender about him.

          I had wondered about my narc MILs obsession with sick and dying people. Sure enough, there was a YouTube video that explained it perfectly. HG’ library of work is extraordinary.

          I’m going to do the narc detector on my husband. He’s all over our finances so I’m pacing myself. Money is a huge trigger for him and I absolutely hate the tirades. I make good money even on unemployment so I don’t need charity assistance, just a dirty sock to shove in my jailer’ mouth. I am a ferocious reader and am listening pretty much constantly. I feel completely comfortable commenting as well. My first ever experience with commenting on a video was met with an insult by the author. The author I had respected for many years. My response showed how my empathy can erode and take no shit took over. I’ve not seen or heard any of the “normal” troll actions and creator to viewer shaming in HG’ internet space. It makes it rather unique and I love the feeling of safeness.

          My existence is getting better each day because of the validity of information I’m taking in. Life doesn’t feel so heavy anymore. 👍🏼🤗

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            S Parham,

            I’m so glad for you that this place is providing you with a sense of safety. A safe place to question, share your thoughts and learn about narcissism so that things in your past make sense and hopes for your future become attainable. I feel the same. Im very fond of this place that HG provides for us all here. You will never be attacked by the author of this blog. You might be corrected to clarify accuracy and understanding, but you won’t be attacked. Have a read of ‘Support Forum Fraud’. There’s a video of that one too. Sounds like you might have wandered inadvertently into the lair of a Mid Ranger! Bloody narcs are everywhere!

            Groping. I haven’t seen an article relating specifically to that. My take would be, that it demonstrates lack of boundary recognition, sense of entitlement, assertion of control over you, the expectation of fuel from your shocked response. An empath would not do it. Their empathy would prevent it. A normal might do it but it would be more likely alcohol induced and down to a misreading of signals. If your response was negative the normal would explain and apologise as their empathy kicked in on the back of your response. Therefore the most likely candidate is narcissist due to his unchecked sense of entitlement and desire for fuel and control. That would be my assessment of a groping scenario. The book ‘Sex and the Narcissist explains exactly how sex and sexual behaviours are viewed by the narcissist. I don’t recall groping being explained as such but it would fall under the category of sexual behaviour. That book covers it all, from the seduction through to the pits of devaluation.

            Yes the NDC is a good way to go, but yes, if finances are being watched, spy your opportunity. Things take time, but by being here you are moving in the right direction! That’s what counts. Xx

  6. Violetta says:

    According to the Pulitzer-prize-winning journalists at DM, Chrissy wants to do a Sussexes-style interview with Oprah, to explain herself.

    I hope this isn’t another DM clickbait fantasy. I’d pay good money to watch Teigen try to explain herself.

    Now, what are the appropriate Bingo words for the drinking game?

  7. Violetta says:

    I don’t know why the repetition of “Teegan-Taygan” struck me as so amusing, but I imagine she would turn purple with rage at not being allowed to assert control over her own name.

    In her defense, walking back and forth in a straight line modeling clothes does require making the clothes look good. This is something Meghan Markle, for instance, doesn’t do as well as she thinks she does. Still photos of her in modeling gigs before she married Harry are adequate, but footage of her moving often has an awkwardness to it. Teigen’s walk isn’t supermodel stuff; it’s basically advertising how the right cut of bikini produces the right kind of jiggle, but it serves its purpose.

    Looking forward to the rest.

    1. SParham says:

      Markle learned sexiness and plays is to full advantage. Before she started messing with the Royals I believed she was a calligraphy supported actress. The reliance on using race made me raise an eyebrow. We get it, very few care and no one needs reminding. My narc husband did predict the highlights of her ensnarement of Harry. Of course he’d recognize his kind.
      I didn’t think the Royals and their clandestine backups would allow a usurper to enter their space?? When Markle and Oprah threw that race card in America I took notice. This country is in turmoil and they want to add more to it?! Black creators that couldn’t tell you 3 Royal names were asking WTF?! The ones in America that care about the Royals know that they aren’t hateful and racist. Markle made herself look stupid and now I can’t forget what I’ve learned about her. The mental health subject is touchy too. Politics and vaccines. Flat out lying in public appearances. The duo seems to poke every delicate subject that exists. Harry looks like a beaten man. You’re right HG, Markle is the narcissist gift that keeps giving.

      1. Violetta says:

        It’s not even real calligraphy. Show her random curlicues to a reenactor who specializes in Uncial or Beneventan, and they’d shake their heads–if they were trying to be polite

        1. SParham says:

          Looking back I should have known better. I mean, unless they are renowned for the writing method how much can a calligrapher really make for their services? I wasn’t impressed with her examples, it just looked like nice script handwriting to me. I don’t know the different writing styles, I doubt that many folks do know. It made it an easy claim of supporting herself. I wonder how she came up with that vocation?

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Violetta,

      Same here Teegan Taygan made me laugh too. A lot of the sarcastic comments that HG uses make me laugh, which got me to wondering why? In fairness I have a sarcastic humour too, so there is a similarity there. It’s a British style and that comes through. The sarcasm is cutting but not vicious, so it evades the empath’s safety system. It’s ok to laugh.

      I do find HG funny when he’s in full flow about Harry’s Wife and it was the same again here. I wonder whether this is down to the fact that the narcissist is unfiltered. He says what I might think but would never say myself ( in general, not referring to Teegan Taygan) because it gets stopped by the empathic traits. “You can’t think that!” “You can’t say that!” So there’s a certain freedom in that.

      Im wondering if this apparent freedom isn’t part of the attraction or ‘draw’ that the narcissist has for the empath. We laugh because it’s ok to laugh. We can’t believe that the narcissist came out with something but it’s almost a relief that the filters and safety switches are all off. It’s ok to be mean, it’s a relief to be mean and it signifies a kind of honesty and freedom behind closed doors. This gets highlighted the more we are told what is acceptable to laugh at and what is now out of bounds. Old comedy shows get edited because we can’t laugh at those things any more. Disney rides are branded as sexist because Sleeping Beauty didn’t give permission for Prince Charming to kiss her. The more that society moves this way, the more desirable and free the narcissist appears.

      1. Violetta says:

        I have to say, I find Teegan-Taygan a relief from dreary ol’ Megs. Like Trump or Amber Heard, she’s so over-the-top it’s gruesomely entertaining.

        HG has responded to accusations of being obsessed with MM with an admission that he finds the woman boring; she is useful only as a study in a particular kind of narcissism. Outside of his analysis, my initial horrified fascination with MM has faded to weariness. I wondered how long she would continue to “get away with it”; astonishingly, in this corrupt world, she isn’t. She got the Prince and the title and promptly pissed it all away on dreams of dominating the media. She continues to alienate people who used to.support her. Books, charitable concerns, podcasts, voiceovers…nothing wins her the acclaim to which she thinks she is entitled.

        Without being a Bill Clinton or Margaret Thatcher, where you can admire the panache, or a Trump, who at least is guaranteed to put on a good show, MM just turns into an exercise in bewilderment. I now understand why she does what she does; I’m just puzzled that so many people besides 15-watt lonely-&-desperate Harry ever fell for it.

        1. TheVimtoSlut says:

          Cunt struck Vi. Cunt struck.

          A woman’s nether regions are powerful indeed. Well, if you know what to do with them. But hey.

          Not that he’s getting anything at all now…

          Had a brief run in with a MMRN Som the other day. This one is a right old Markle. A talented woman though. Seamstress and whilst some of her clothing is a tad outre for my tastes, I was of a mind to actually commission a top.

          I’d already sensed she was narcus narcus but then she bloody proved it.

          It involved her recently deceased cat and the utterly cold way she announced the way she had spent the day digging its grave. Like you do.

          And then in the next paragraph completely changes the narrative. Was actually quite chilling.

          Of course, everyone comes out and offers their condolences. I did too but in a way that semi ‘called’ her on it. She sensed it and I was the only person she responded too. Hmm!!!

          So no. No orders from me. Silly female

          If anyone is in any doubt as to the effacy of Hgs work; this is a case in point. Contrast this with another, lovely female emp I know who is a very talented and humble fine artist. Standard. Carrier I guess. Paints mandalas on pebbles.

          Sir T has saved me £80 plus any other future orders. No way on this planet would I have been able to make a fully informed descion without his work.

          Love ya big fella!

          1. Violetta says:

            Nobody’s cha-cha is that impressive. I don’t care if she can do the possibly apocryphal Cleopatra Squeeze.

            If he’d been a virgin, maybe, but surely he has SOME basis for comparison, after at least 2 previous steady girlfriends and being in the military.

        2. SParham says:

          Markle had the best job in this world. She couldn’t stand rain, how is she okay with charity recipients? The banana fiasco crawls down my spine. Tape a £100 on that phallic symbol banana! Maybe those women could’ve stayed home that day. Markle, of all people, should have had some understanding of THAT charity.

          I’d gladly take their spot. I wanna apply for a job to help charities and let folks know that they for real mean something. Nice living quarters and a reliable car as a bonus. Potential connection with 4 powerful women that I’d gladly listen and learn from. Hell yeah! It’s really mind blowing that Markle blew her chance. It pisses me off that Harry has so much support to leave yet he remains. I guess it does happen to the best of us.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            SParham

            It does appear as mind-blowing stupidity up to the point when one recognizes (by way of evidence in accurate analysis here) that she is an unaware narcissist. Then it becomes clear that she is only (unconsciously) interested in power and control and operates in the moment, thus rendering her unable to stay the course one would consider prudent in her position.

          2. SParham says:

            The unawareness remains mind boggling. I’ve often thought of her (and other narcs) listening to HG’ analysis and then wondering what their responses would be? I imagine many counters and “wrongs” would result after a couple of moments – if they listened at all. I think of Harry hiding in one of Rob Lowe’s bushes and listening as well. Harry has to be an empath to be blinded to Markle’s dumbass show right? Another narc would have sniffed her out fairly quickly? I certainly get the staying for children, but, there’s so much weirdness around those subjects for them, I’m not sure it’s a valid point?

        3. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Violetta,

          I know what you mean. I can’t stand reading about Harry’s Wife in the press and she is still everywhere. I still read the articles though to try and work out what HG’s take will be, what he will highlight etc. Testing myself on my revision!

          What I find bizarre is that their PR agency hasn’t advised against over exposure. Ed Sheeran was having huge success, I forget how many songs he had in the top 10 here at one point, several in the same week. He stepped back as he basically thought people must be sick of hearing him. He had successful records to be proud of. Harry’s Wife is all over the press and has no genuine success to speak of that warrants so many column inches. That said she likely over rules any advice given by the PR agency anyway. Then things turn bad and she gets rid of them because she thinks they aren’t doing a good job.

          Chrissy Teegan Taygan is just vile. There are rumours she wants to do an Oprah interview to fix her image. Good grief, that would be a “bombshell interview” Oprah could do without!

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, had to laugh to myself at the mention of Ed here again. Was reading some comments on an article about the release of his new single (which i knew nothing about when I commented the other day) and unless they are blocking all the positive comments, not one was welcoming Ed back onto the scene 😛 Poor guy. Seems like some people were sick of hearing him! That won’t put me off, though. The teaser for the song promises it will be about more narc heartbreak, going by the title – “Bad Habits” (addiction anyone?) and a sneak peak at the lyrics (sigh).

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            People are mean aren’t they? It must be horrible to talk about your new material and get such negative feedback. That said, I’m sure his new stuff will do very well. I don’t mind Ed. He’s a bit romantic for me but his tunes are catchy!

            I do have one romantic song that describes for me what love means. Snow Patrol Chasing Cars.

            People usually try too hard with love songs. They try too hard to describe what it means. They paint all of these flowery pictures and exaggerate the emotion. Really to me, love is something you can’t accurately describe. Chasing cars strips it all the way down. The bare bones. I like that. It feels genuine. It isn’t grandiose in any way, there’s a humility about it, a lack of clarity in the thoughts described, it’s honest. The only thing that hints at narc is the idea, ‘ lie with me and just forget the world.’ I’m going to say empath / normal writer though, not narc.

            Xx

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            I don’t think Ed needs to worry about the negative feedback, TS, in terms of his bank balance! And he’ll get plenty of love from his fans to make up for it, I’m sure <3

            I may be more of a love devotee, by the sounds of things, although I do like Snow Patrols "Chasing Cars" 🙂 I agree it isn't grandiose like some other love songs, and does lack clarity – as in how can love be defined?

            "Would you lay here, would you just lay here,
            Would you lie with me and just forget the world?"

            Perfect. Let's just be together and experience this thing while we try to work out what it is <3

            "Just forget the world" takes it more into narc territory, as you say. I think you may be right about the writer based on that.

            Coldplay's "Fix You" is closer to where I was at when I got here xox

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            That Coldplay song is another that says a lot by saying little. I like that one too. Although when I just listened to it in context of your arrival, it took on far more meaning. That sense of real loss but the hope that even when you can’t see clearly, somehow you will find your way back in the end. Xx

            Haha, yes, I can’t imagine Ed is too concerned either. I don’t see him losing his fortune and success any time soon. He also appears to be reasonably grounded, not falling into the fame thing even though his success would gain him free entry. I’d have to say non narc, based on that song. Again, I haven’t looked too much into his personal back story though. I bet he’s on your bullet list! Is he? Bullet, not bucket! Xx

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            No, Ed wasn’t on my bullet list … nor is he on my bucket list 😛 Haha!

            Didn’t even give a thought to the possibility of him being a narc, but then Taylor Swift hadn’t come up on my radar either … Miss Americana. So, what’s the chances a nice normal seeming guy like Ed could be a narc? Probably, plenty! He did have a drug issue at one stage which I think his relationship with his now wife likely saved him from, but I honestly don’t know. Just random info I’ve come across in the past.

            His popularity probably speaks to the number of love devotees out there <3

            All narcs need to do is attend an Ed Sheeran concert to find what they're looking for 🙁

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            “What’s the chances a nice normal seeming guy like Ed could be a narc?”

            I was ok until you said that. Now every time I think of him, his eyes are glowing red.

            Slim to none haha! Xx

          7. JB says:

            AV, ah thank you! Xx How funny that we both experienced that same sudden feeling of realisation. There are times when I find myself doubting though, thinking maybe I got it all wrong!

          8. A Victor says:

            JB, that’s where I learned I’d been giving the narc way to much wiggle room, evidence means something, it counts, if that helps. It has helped me tremendously to know that what I saw, facts I saw and knew, were real and mattered, even when the narc said otherwise. It has been very empowering for me. But yeah, that initial day, life changing!

      2. Bubbles says:

        Dearest Truthseeker 6157,
        What you’ve described rings very true with me as well
        I’m drawn to sarcastic wit and boldness with no filters, but definitely not viciousness or outright mean spirited
        The weasel was sarcastically funny in that way and my mum can produce some doosies.
        Our greater friend not so much… he’s more cutting …. he doesn’t laugh much, or when he does it’s weird. I’m usually the one to make light of his direct belittling comments about others
        I guess it’s all to do with having forever walked on egg shells and minding our p’s n q’s
        The fact that someone else says what we don’t dare to utter, we kinda admire !
        I can try, but it never comes out the same as the narcs …theirs is natural …. I have think about it 😂
        What a strange web we weave
        Thank you for your explanation TS, I found it most fascinating
        💕
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Bubbles,

          Hello lovely. Yes, both narcs I interacted with were dry and sarcastic, more than the norm I would say. Both were very funny guys. It’s the timing, they just seem to come out with it. I’m sarcastic but I use it sparingly and in company where people know me well. So I think it but don’t necessarily say it. It’s filtered.

          It’s interesting you found your Greater friend more cutting than just sarcastic. Is he cerebral do you think? The Elite cadre might be more able to fit in, more environmentally friendly!

          They don’t feel humour though, so maybe it matters more who they spend their time with as to what type of humour they pick up and portray. I am feeling constricted by society at the moment. I don’t like the path we are on. The whole woke approach is highlighting differences between us not bringing us closer or promoting acceptance in my view. I think my rejection of this might also be why I see the narcissist as more ‘free’ than I might have done even ten years ago.

          I know why we have the addiction and why the narcissist caters to our empathic side more than any other group. I’d still like to know the constituent parts that make up the addiction though. What aspects exactly they are catering to.

          Tell me, how is Mr Bubbles doing? 😊
          Xx

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truthseeker6157,
            I found the sarcastic wit in the beginning is sought to draw us in. Then as time goes on it becomes subtly more invasive until they just don’t care and let it rip. I believe ‘familiarity breeds contempt’ where a narc is involved.

            Our greater friend I’m sure, is cerebral! I didn’t like him when we first met …. I even told him so …..he’s never forgotten it, in fact he doesn’t forget a thing! His wife always tells people ‘jokingly’, don’t tell him anything, he remembers everything! It’s true, he’ll use it against you! His humour is verrrrrry dry……. he certainly can’t take a joke !!!! Haha It was his wife I liked more (I think she’s moulded into him over the years) still lovely, but has grown more grandiose (they just upgraded to the latest European ‘black’ car) Their other car was ‘white’ ….. they seem to interchange between black n white …. funny about that !!!!!
            He and Mr Bubbles get on well, they talk business! Mr Bubbles is slowly coasting along, thank you TS .

            I’m with you TS on society today
            Covid certainly hasn’t helped, its brought out the worst in people…..’ I do what I want’ attitude
            I’m also so over celebrities and their ‘play up to’ antics …l’m not big on ‘influencers’ either, who the hell thought of that marketing ploy ????
            I remember seeing Ms Chrissy ‘ ticky tacky’ ….she was ‘gushing over’ on some reality show and quite ‘sickly’ to watch (I had to look her up) then realised J Leg End (haha) was her partner
            The next thing she’s on social media with her loss! Extremely sad, but keep it private luv, especially so soon after
            I thought she was very ott ! Not my cuppa tea at all.

            What aspects are they catering to ? You got me there TS haha
            The only thing I can think of is we have a lot of compassion and understanding to give whilst the narc thrives on us worshipping them. We end up forgiving everything they do, at the same time being used n degraded whilst the narc creates more chaos
            We make them look good! When they start to see our flaws, they blame us for not being perfect!
            We naturally strive hard for perfection whilst they believe they already are!

            Mr Tudor’s ‘personal touch’ to his audio has made it ‘most appealing’ with regard to this obnoxious celebrity
            I need to catch up n ‘carry on’ listening to the others haha
            💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        2. Fiddleress says:

          Hello dear Bubbles!

          Thank you for your comment about things you can’t say anymore in front of your children as they are now deemed offensive.
          I will just describe what I saw in a video of a programme that I like, about two years ago, because with what I have learnt here, I now view it as gaslighting. The host was interviewing someone and started: “For instance you, as a white man…” but the other guy interrupted him and replied in a very huffy manner: “What gives you the right to call me a white man? I identify as a woman. And what gives you the right to say I am white (Caucasian)? My grandfather was from Lebanon.” That person had a full beard, an almost barytone voice, and his skin was white. But he was demanding to be seen as a non-white woman, because he had decided that was how he identified. It was scary to me, and now I think that’s because it felt like telling us we were mad, we were seeing things and we shouldn’t trust our senses; it sounds very much like a narcissist gaslighting you.
          Let’s hope the whole woke thing is just a fad!
          xx

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Fiddleress,
            So many people, so many agendas
            Hosts n reporters these days have their ‘own’ agendas and personally I’m not a fan. When I was growing up, there was more of ‘reporting the facts’ ….. these days, it’s all about sensationalism, digging up the dirt n false accusations …..look what’s happened with Covid for instance
            I feel It’s all about ‘stirring’ the pot with provocation n presumptions
            Alas, dear Fiddleress, I feel it’s only going to get worse!
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      3. JB says:

        TS, I completely agree with what you said about the narcissist appearing desirable and free for daring to laugh in certain instances. It’s a double-edged sword; in the early stages that is exactly how I would feel, drawn to that particular narcissistic trait for the reasons you stated. It feels different, refreshing, but ultimately it would go tits up because after a while I would start to view the person as just being cold and uncaring! I want it, but I don’t want it! 😂

        1. Violetta says:

          It’s funny until they turn it on us:

          The first thing she saw me do, on coming out of the Grange, was to hang up her little dog; and when she pleaded for it, the first words I uttered were a wish that I had the hanging of every being belonging to her, except one: possibly she took that exception for herself. But no brutality disgusted her: I suppose she has an innate admiration of it, if only her precious person were secure from injury!

          That biting wit may be less physically destructive than physical assault, but it leaves a scar all the same.

          1. JB says:

            True, Violetta. Where is the extract from?

          2. Violetta says:

            Wuthering Heights.

          3. JB says:

            Thanks, Violetta!

          4. Violetta says:

            You’re welcome. Have you been listening to HG’s Bronte readings?

          5. JB says:

            No, I don’t often get the chance to listen to much, I prefer to read as it’s easier to do uninterrupted here!

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          JB, I agree. It’s funny, until it’s not funny. By then it’s too late. Unashamedly unapologetic. I think that’s how I’d describe it. Good one the one hand, frightening on the other. Xx

          1. JB says:

            TS, you’re definitely right about it being frightening. I think the scary part is when you witness that ‘banter’ suddenly ‘turn’ as the mask slips. And when you express surprise or concern for the sudden change, you are stunned into silence by how suddenly different they are – they go from jokey banter to, as you said, being unashamedly unapologetic, and fuming at the flick of a switch, leaving you wondering what just happened! The – “We were having a joke, weren’t we, why does it feel now like we’re in the middle of an argument?” – type feeling ! Xx

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            JB,

            Exactly and they can do it online too. You’d think it wouldn’t be as scary but actually, it can be. I’ll tell you something weird the online narc did to me.
            We had been getting along great, we were supposed to meet for a second time on my next trip home. We would laugh and joke for hours. He was my person.

            Then he disappeared. He reappeared a few months later. He didn’t contact me via the app we used though, he contacted me by adding a song to our joint playlist. I checked our chat app, nothing. So I added a song to the playlist entitled ‘Where’d You Go?’ He answered with “Sorry Seems To Be The Hardest Word”. The conversation continued as I’m trying to find song titles that fit what I’m trying to ask. Nothing on the app still.

            All of a sudden, the song titles didn’t make sense so I thought maybe it’s in the lyrics. I added “Confusion”. The song titles then turned really really dark. I listened to one and it shocked the hell out of me. I felt my heart skip. He wasn’t there in the room but as I watched the songs added, it scared me. It was just so out of character and it was twisted. I added “That Isn’t You” and closed YouTube.

            A minute later, the app pinged.

            I remember looking at the app icon scared to open it. My heart thumping even though I knew he couldn’t get to me. This was a guy who I laughed with and confided in (as much as I ever confide which isn’t a huge amount). It was so utterly bizarre I wanted to find out what was actually going on. Of course, that was enough then, I was drawn back in.

            We don’t consider what they will do until they do it. The change shocks so much that it doesn’t compute. We need to know why. We want an explanation. We get it but we know it’s rubbish. Still we carry on. Only an addiction would cause this behaviour. I never would behave like that normally. I never would have stood for it from the MMRA I dated. Online though, so strange, you just can’t clarify what you are seeing and the addiction just locks you in further. Online for me is my most vulnerable area.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            TS, reading this comment of yours reminded me of the MR – he told me (at one point during the ‘entanglement’) that he was listening to songs that are dark, death related, depression related – morbid related basically. Now with what I understand about narcissism, I do wonder if he was aware that he was ‘depressed’ etc – whether he was aware of his ‘creature’, I don’t really know for sure – or was he struggling to ‘manage’ his ‘creature’? If he was aware of his narcissism, he was not going to share that with me otherwise he’d be ‘handing over power to me’ and the fact I did not know that much about narcissism, maybe he knew me well enough so either, a) I would have ‘gone off on one’, or b) told him where to go (eventually I did!!).

            Or was he seeking ‘support’ from me – yes, he was, as he would leave my house in a “happier” ‘frame of mind’ than when he arrived. Looking back and thinking about it now, I do not actually feel or think ‘anger’, nor sadness – just understanding and accepting that I should view what I have just said as the MR in my past as a ‘symbiotic parasite’ rather than a ‘symbiotic relationship’ – in my view, there is a distinctive difference in between the two.

            RE: “The change shocks so much that it doesn’t compute” – absolutely. At the time it was, not now – for either you or me. RE: “We need to know why. We want an explanation” – we do now, with our understanding of what it was all about. The lessons of Life.

          4. JB says:

            TS,

            Blimey, that must have been terrifying! I’m so glad you got away from him! All of that hassle with the ongoing song title thing! I think there is a part of us that is drawn to the mystery, the intrigue, working out the puzzle..kind of all gets romanticised in the brain, until things turn and then you really get pulled up short as you see it for what it really is.

            What you said about you wouldn’t stand for it normally – yes, exactly this! My experience was online too, so I know where you are coming from. And, like you, I strongly believe I wouldn’t have stood for half of it in person! Mind you, I guess we never truly know until we are in that situation xx

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            JB,

            Totally. We don’t know for certain. The plan is never to have to find out!

            I didn’t remember yours being an online ensnarement. Did you mention it before? Apologies if you did. This day and age there must be more of us out there.

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Depression. That was one of my ports of call too, or that he was bipolar. That’s where my research started but he never quite fit the profile. Your narc being unaware, likely thought the same. He would never realise that he felt better because you had fuelled him. The dark songs were likely a play for sympathy.

            The online narc never gave any indication that he thought any of his behaviours were anything other than justified. Only when I went back in right at the very end did he apologise in any form. Even then there was an excuse attached. I find it so odd that they just don’t recognise that their behaviours fall outside of the norm. When I had Sophie and my mood dipped, I knew that I wasn’t being me. To not recognise behaviours in yourself is mind boggling to me. They don’t think about it, don’t self evaluate and don’t even remember some of the time. I know it but can’t imagine it if you know what I mean?

            The dark songs were woman hating in nature, different dark haha! Although he did send songs that were very sad and about depression on other occasions. He knew I was sensitive to music. I think he was manipulating in that sense rather than portraying depression.

            Yes we are moving on Asp x Not so long ago talking about this brought on more sadness. I would miss him. Now I see him still in my mind, can remember where I was and what I was doing during the various interactions, but the emotion has gone. It feels like something I have forgotten to do almost. I see that as a prompt and don’t try to remember further. I push him out and change direction.

          7. Asp Emp says:

            TS, RE: “He would never realise that he felt better because you had fuelled him. The dark songs were likely a play for sympathy” – Yes, agree that he didn’t realise that he came to me for ‘re-fuelling’ but he still sought it and got it. In my view – about the dark songs – maybe you are right, at the same time, maybe he couldn’t explain his ‘depression’ in words. Having said that, reading what you say “dark songs were woman hating in nature” – interesting, because he gave my printouts of two songs. One about being ill, close to death, not living yet existing (could be likened to how a narcissist instinctively senses their creature without knowing exactly what it is they are trying to describe, never mind explaining exactly what it is). He is the type of person to ‘google’ things. Was he trying to put together things I had said to him as well as ‘relay’ to me what he is “feeling” – told me once, he does not feel emotions. Sometimes narcissists can be honest in this respect. The other song was about hating, being angry and wanting to ‘break down that wall’ – maybe he was hating the being ‘trapped’ of his situation (external to his narcissism – his home issues, family etc), maybe he was trying to self-analyse himself, a lot of ‘maybes’. He was actually seeing some kind of ‘therapist / counsellor’ in relation to his way of thinking – this started about 18 months after the ‘intimacy’ with me. Either way, there is no way on earth he would admit to anyone ever if he was given a diagnosis of narcissism. He would , however, use other – actually, he did! He said he was diagnosed with Bipolar – maybe to ‘explain’ away his behaviours. Because they were actually becoming more erratic and noticeable. ‘The Ageing Narcissist’ and ‘The Fading Star’ spring to my mind. He also knew (or maybe sensed) that other people had started to question – because of how I was treated by the narcissist higher-ups.

            As far as I am concerned, the ‘immense’ damage was done. I was not supported. End of.

            I am free of their manipulations and utter BS.

            I am not particularly interested in him – just sharing with you (and others who may read this comment).

            Good to read that you seem to be less emotionally ‘affected’. I think we are similar in how we approached our ‘learning’ = reading and taking into our minds, then changing how we feel about it, then logic kicks in. Thank you for your views, always a pleasure to read & discuss x

          8. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp n TS,
            Well that was very disturbing ….I hope you blocked him ?
            We need to avoid what makes us vulnerable and stay away

            I agree, narcs give us continuous reasons to programme into Detective mode …. our ‘driven desire’ to know whhhhhyyyyyyy ?
            I relate more to Inspector Clouseau 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          9. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles! Laughing……. “to know whhhhhyyyyyyy” – gawd, just like the whining of an MRN…… hilarious! Still laughing…… thank you x

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Bubbles 😊

            I’m afraid to say I didn’t block him. I answered the ping of the app and there he was, my person, back to being himself.

            I was thinking about this when I read your comment. Why didn’t you block him? I think it was because I couldn’t recognise what he had just done. On the face of it he added some very dark songs to a playlist. What is that? Is it insensitivity, a joke, a threat? If it’s a threat, how so if he lives miles away? If you told someone else, what would they call it? “Weird” probably.

            I thought the same when I listened to a recent video. HG reels off a list of behaviours that signify abuse. To me the behaviours aren’t abuse. They are manipulations. Manipulations provoke a response.

            Whether a behaviour is abusive or not I’ve never been too good at. I would recognise physical abuse and sexual abuse. I recognise if someone is verbally abusive. I would recognise financial abuse. Though I wouldn’t have thought of financial abuse before I got here. A lot of the time I see manipulations as manipulations rather than abuse. Depends on the manipulation I suppose and whether I’ve experienced it or not.

            I didn’t block him because I couldn’t categorise with certainty what he had just done. Now i think I would concentrate on how the behaviour made me feel, rather than on the behaviour itself.

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            I enjoyed reading your comment here, TS, and the questioning that goes with it.

            Your comment about not being able to categorize makes me think of the dissonance the narcissist creates, and how the unexpected experience leaves us unable to align that with the person we know – or think we know – so we are primed at the same time for them to come in with an excuse and accept that. It also causes us to question ourselves and our sensitivities, as in is it me or is it them? It can become quite a tangled web.

            Interesting also trying to define manipulation and abuse, and deciding whether they are one and the same. I think a lot would depend on the circumstances how you categorize these things. And also who you are dealing with. Empaths can manipulate, too, but maybe for different reasons. This is quite an area of interest to me and I wonder if you remember which video of HGs it was that you watched?

            Anyway, I can understand the not blocking him in the sense of not really knowing what was going on and the fact the seduction had already taken place. The hope going forward is that we stop them at the seduction stage so they can never bring us to the place which eventually brought us here. Though, of course we are grateful to have found it <3 xox

          12. JB says:

            TS, I mentioned it to AV in another thread the other day (think it was the 10 rules of narcissistic possession thread, not sure), don’t think I mentioned it properly before that, just kind of alluded to it here and there maybe.

            Yes I guess online ensnarement is becoming more common, with online dating, etc. Mine wasn’t anything like that; rather a very intense online ‘friendship’ which rapidly went downhill, making no sense at all at the time but perfect sense now! Hurt me a great deal and, following advice, led me to read about narcissism, which ultimately led me here, where I quickly discovered my dad was probably a narcissist, and I had been pretty much ripe for the picking! Xx

          13. A Victor says:

            JB, you did mention someone coming along that showed caring but I did not pick up that it was an online situation. I am so sorry not to have. I am also even more happy for you to be talking with your husband now, getting things worked out. Your entire second paragraph here is so accurate, I have thought much the same things over my time here, with the learning we get.

          14. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            It is strange when you think back to comments they made that were either throwaways or gave the impression of ‘opening up’. That’s what people do with us. Open up. We kind of expect it and assume that we’ll get there in the end. They’ll finally explain how they feel.

            I think it’s hard to accept that every interaction, every second, is a manipulation. They might think they are opening up. The depression might have been a description of the emptiness within but the reason for them confiding anything is still the Prime Aims.

            It invalidates any coincidental truth they ever said, say or will say. In my case, the benefit I felt at the start from him being my person, the comfort and the good advice, was just a coincidental positive consequence of a manipulation. A happy bi product of something that was never genuine. So I didn’t owe him anything. He never really tried to help.

            It took a very bright man to see my way of thinking and correct it. Once it clicked, it clicked and I got it. I don’t think I would have worked it out on my own.

          15. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your input – totally agree – MRs and their manipulations.

            RE: last paragraph – well said TS. I would certainly have not worked it out on my own either.

          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            I love your second paragraph here … definitely says it all.

            “Coincidental truth”

            Their aim was never to reveal truth or beauty to us.

            But in a way they did.

            There is no better revenge for me than knowing that.

          17. Fiddleress says:

            TS, I was so so so happy for you to read this:
            “Not so long ago talking about this brought on more sadness. I would miss him. Now I see him still in my mind, can remember where I was and what I was doing during the various interactions, but the emotion has gone. It feels like something I have forgotten to do almost. I see that as a prompt and don’t try to remember further. I push him out and change direction.”
            You rock, girl !

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Fiddleress,

            Thank you. I didn’t think I would shed that sadness, at least not entirely. I remember saying that and you came and quietly sat next to me whilst I was in my corner. You didn’t push for me to change my mind, you just sat beside me. I’ll always remember and be thankful for that. Xx

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi JB,

            Yes, similar story here. I wasn’t on a dating site and I wasn’t looking for anyone either. It just started. In some ways, had I been on a dating app my guard would have been up. My guard was fully down. He was just someone I chatted with to begin with. No doubt my ET was gradually rising, before I knew it we were in each other’s pockets and in constant contact.

            I never considered that I could be a target for narcissists. I had no understanding about how narcissists operate. He was one of the strangest events of my life I think. My eyes have been opened to a whole different world since arriving here. In some ways I wish I didn’t know. In other ways I’m glad I do know because I clearly needed to know! I’m not going to de-empath myself, so I might as well weaponise myself up to the back teeth!

          20. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truthseeker6157,
            You said “I’ll tell you something weird”, “the song titles turned really really dark” “it shocked the the hell out of me” “I felt my heart skip a beat” and “it scared me”

            Why did he do it? Was it ……..Emotional manipulation ? Playing games ? Testing you ? Encapsulating into his dark little world ? Testing n pushing your boundaries ? Sowing that almighty narc seed?

            I’d sometimes send our weasel friend a ‘funny gif’ in response to his text. He loved them in the beginning, he’d also send one back. I thought I was being ‘helpful’ in his recovery from PTSD. Then one day out of the blue, they became strange. Suddenly, he turned and literally ‘told’ me to stop. Looking back, I was already being devalued and then it all turned quite ugly.
            After that, I decluttered ‘everyone’ in my life who didn’t make me feel good about myself and I stopped splitting hairs! My mental health has never been better!

            To quote a reference I thought may be of interest TS

            “A controlling relationship is one-sided and unstable

            A controlling relationship does not have to be romantic. It is a relationship where you feel you are being emotionally abused or manipulated into doing things (or put you into a situation) that makes you feel physically and / or emotionally distressed.

            Partners, family members, carers, friends, colleagues to even teachers : anyone could be manipulating you .

            Manipulation
            The action of indirectly interfering with the decision-making process of another person, particularly in a clever of unscrupulous way.

            Psychological manipulation
            Can be abusive, deceptive and sneaky, to make you behave the way the perpetrator wants.

            Emotional manipulation
            Is meant to confuse you and leave you off-balance, and is often very subtle and deceptive ”

            Manipulation or abuse ….??? I’d still block ……but that’s just me !!!!
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          21. A Victor says:

            Bubbles, how is manipulation, as you’ve described here, not abuse? It reads like it is. Or is that your point? I am not always the best at picking up on nuances.

          22. JB says:

            TS, wow! Everything you have written, every day word, I could have written myself, from what happened (are you sure we weren’t talking to the same bloke? 😂), to how you felt and now feel about it all.

            I, too, had no real knowledge of what a narcissist is or does. It was only when I confided in somebody that I was encouraged to go and google it. My life changed forever from that day onwards, no word of a lie. Blew my whole world apart as I realised it wasn’t as simple as him being a narcissist, but rather that my whole life had been leading up to me going through that, and discovering who I really was.

            It didn’t stop me having a blip and going back (after all, you don’t just stop caring, do you, especially in the current climate?), but I very quickly discovered that not only was he, without doubt, a narcissist, but the clincher was that I found out he had lied on some pretty big things, too. He has no idea about this, as I just completely cut contact at that point. Pulled me up pretty sharpish, I can tell you. The sudden realisation that you aren’t Superwoman, and you can be duped just like anyone else, was a shock! I think I had always thought I would just ‘know’ if someone had been lying to me (although in a way I did, as I had a physical feeling very early on that something just wasn’t right, but I ignored it), but I think I was in the wrong place at the wrong time – I was going through a rough patch at home and my head was elsewhere. I took my eye off the ball, simple as that.

            I don’t know what I feel now. In a weird way I am kind of ‘grateful’ to him/God/the universe for the experience. And, of course, to HG for everything he has taught me, and for metaphorically holding my hand throughout! I strongly believe things happen for a reason, and, bizarre as it may sound, I think I needed to go through this in order to learn who I was and what I really wanted (and what I wouldn’t accept, too). I had been feeling increasingly lost before it all happened, but thanks to this experience and new-found knowledge, I think I am now (gradually! 😂) starting to figure out where I am going xx

          23. A Victor says:

            JB, we had exactly the same experience also! That day of discovery! Mine was dragged out over a few months, all told, but that first day of realization! Nothing will ever be the same again. And in a good way, though hell to go through, to be going through. What a great comment, so relatable.

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET, Bubbles

            The video I listened to was ‘The Narcissist’s Double Abuse’. It’s a really useful video. HG lists devaluing behaviours back to back. I didn’t click for a quite a while that the behaviours experienced during the golden period were manipulations. I think lots of listeners will be similar to that. It makes perfect sense, narcissism isn’t a part time event. Still, it didn’t click to begin with when I first got here.

            I think maybe the way to view manipulations, is that there are numerous ways to manipulate, numerous manipulations used together and consistently over time, then amount to abuse.

            I really like Bubbles’ definitions. I did consider that with the playlist thing. The key indicator perhaps is how the behaviours made me feel. Bubbles highlighted that too. I did feel that way. I did react physically in response, even if mentally I later underplayed it.

            I’m pretty resilient and I know I am. I see myself as being able to give as good as I get, so to think that I’ve been abused possibly doesn’t fit the way I see myself.

            I’m not great with weird though. I was rattled similarly when he criticised my use of lol or emoji in conversation. I used to do that because I tease, joke around, it’s how I show I like people in many ways. So I would add ‘lol’ to show I was playing. Pages and pages of lol arrived in all different colours fonts and styles. Pages of them, I don’t know how he even drew them that fast. That spooked me too. It was weird and I wanted him to stop. I didn’t say stop. I started saying things like, ‘the second one was better.’ ‘Great use of colour!’ ‘I can see the finger painting classes came in handy’. I didn’t show unease. I felt it though.

            He did something similar with candles. I said I don’t like sweet smells. Pages and pages of candle pictures. Birthday cake, toffee apple, candy floss etc. What was he doing?! What box do you put that in? Criticising? It similar to the Greater rejecting the funny gif in some ways.

            He tried the odd comment about appearance, said I was too skinny, asked if Sophie and I shared clothes (she would have been 9). I came back with ‘Doesn’t everyone absorb their nutrients from the air?’ I played up to it.

            He tried to say I was posh. (this got a rise at first). Later though I played up to that too “If you had a Rangey you could park on double yellows like me.” (I don’t have a Range Rover) “Is it not time for you to take the whippet out?” So it’s possible that he was trying to undermine and devalue and I was sidestepping. Oblivious to my devaluation ha ha! That must have been annoying for him! Good. Jackass.

            When we did have that back and forth, I have to admit, I did get a kick from turning the tables back in his direction. My mind would move up a gear. I felt alert, on my game I suppose. I’m not sure how I feel about that looking back over it. I reacted though. I didn’t instigate.

            I said for a long time I wasn’t devalued. I think I have to admit now that I probably was. I think a combination of not placing / recognising his behaviours and a personality that was able to bat his negative comments back to him, means that I didn’t notice as many of them as I should have. Plus, he was my person. As LET pointed out, Cognitive dissonance. The behaviours didn’t match the person I believed him to be.

            Still things to learn once the fog lifts. If I had paid attention to how the behaviours actually made me feel rather than countering them, I might have hit on the truth of it sooner. ET slows us down. ET is a pain in the ass full stop. Xx

          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I understand the notion of being resilient, giving as good as you get, and being the victim of abuse as not fitting in with how you see yourself. Being a strong, independent woman (which is how I imagine you see yourself) doesn’t really make allowances for the vulnerability you experience when you come into contact with a narcissist. And it’s that vulnerability which allows the abuse to occur. We let them in, and they plunder, like an invading army and much how HG describes it in one of his articles. The Trojan Horse takes on new significance in the context of a narcissistic relationship.

            I read the story of the LOLs before when you shared it here, and adding the further tale of the playlist makes me think you were dealing with one very dangerous individual. There is a real sense of malice contained in those actions, at least that’s how I would read it, and I believe he could be capable of anything. You say he is a fireman? I wouldn’t be surprised if he meets criteria for a further diagnosis of a sociopath or even psychopath, tbh. The job he does is an adrenaline pumping one, and I believe they seek out this kind of excitement, with an element of fearlessness added. All in all his behaviour is very concerning, and very dark indeed. I’m not surprised you felt extremely unnerved by him at those moments.

            I could compare out of the blue moments with my ex-narc, and never were they frightening as much as infuriating! He knew what buttons to push because I had already given him the insights. Made it easy for him. He never once frightened me. I’m getting a whole different take on your narc after reading this today. I hope you don’t mind me saying that. Where we have opened up a conversation about abuse, and manipulation, I think you are talking about malice.

            The candles, the comments, comparisons, some of it typical narc fare, some of it more edgy and maybe needing to be redefined. There’s an aspect to our empathy, TS, namely Super, which in some ways means you were up to the game, but it took an unexpectedly dark turn warning you this was not someone you wanted to be playing games with. As much as you could match him, as an empath you do not have the malicious component to your nature required to meet him in the same place.

            The one time I sensed real malice during my last entanglement, the words from Dante’s Inferno entered my mind: “Abandon all hope, ye who enter here”. I think it is as well you made it here when you did, and have moved so far past that experience now. There may have been further layers to your experience which don’t fit the criteria for this site. That’s just my personal opinion. But I know it left you with a terrible heaviness which has taken some time to lift. The good news is, it has lifted now and I’m very happy that it has <3 xox

          26. A Victor says:

            Hi TS,
            “I think maybe the way to view manipulations, is that there are numerous ways to manipulate, numerous manipulations used together and consistently over time, then amount to abuse.” I’ve come to see it all as abuse, the “good”, the “bad” and the “neutral”, they don’t have a neutral. It is accurate but even more importantly, it helps me when I have to deal with one of them. I just simply accept that I am being manipulated, in their minds, and that it is not personal, they do it to everyone, all the time. It is the only way I can be around them now, even for a minute. It keeps my defenses at the ready but I know better what to do, mostly just walking away, sometimes without even a word. My second choice, if I can’t walk away, is to keep my mouth shut. And knowing what is happening makes this so much easier to do, it deflates any desire to argue my side of things.

            I really enjoyed your entire comment here, thank you for writing it. I think you absolutely hit on how the fog of ET keeps us unable to see our devaluation as it really is. This is what my entire life has been, and it stands out the most from during the time I was married and felt so trapped. As a child I didn’t “know” I was trapped, I just was. As a married woman, I was acutely aware of feeling stuck/trapped, but didn’t know why or how, didn’t understand what was going on. Learning this aspect of the ET, that I pushed the feelings down, Cognitive Dissonance, what devaluation is, has really been beneficial in my growth and understanding of what has happened in my life and in that marriage in particular. I had all the evidence, tons of it, and yet I still gave him the benefit of the doubt. I feel like an idiot for this, sometimes, sometimes it still seems unreal, but I know now that I was not an idiot, I was an empath who was being deceived, by myself and by him. Thank you again for this comment.

          27. Asp Emp says:

            TS, it was good to read your comment. RE: candles. Would that be ‘related’ to pyromania, I wonder? Granted, not all narcissists would have some ‘fascination’ with flames. It reminded me of the MR, he used to tell me about when he had the bonfire going and a tin of baked beans exploding everywhere, he said it was ‘raining’ beans. LOL. Said it took a while for the beans to come back down! LOL. I was just as ‘fascinated’ with flames too but not necessarily a pyromaniac, I really don’t know where my ‘interest’ came from – maybe it’s the ‘naughtiness’ in me (surprise, surprise!). Fireworks do not have the same ‘impact’ in relation to the excitement, I would say, the ‘shock’ impact, I think. It’s similar to putting iron filings into bunsen burners.

            RE: the use of scented candles. Was he trying to ‘remove’ the ‘darkness’ he can instinctively feel?

          28. Truthseeker6157 says:

            JB,

            He didn’t tell you he was a firefighter did he? Haha. I did check that funnily enough although he would have had to go some considering the various photos he sent from his office desk, to the inside of the fire truck etc. His name was in a public list of travel expenses for the same department and county fire station he was based at, and the trip was where he told me, on the dates he had told me. So that was truth at least.

            No huge clangers in terms of lies, more exaggeration I suspect. You can’t tell online though JB. Online there’s no tone, body language, facial expression, we can’t see the eyes and we can’t feel the words. Things we rely on to get a feel of a person don’t work well online.

            Interesting you were caught at a low point in your relationship. HG does warn that a narc can smell blood in the water. We do tend to give ourselves away in that sense.

            I think it’s very positive that you believe your ensnarement happened for a reason. I’m similar. I was a bit naive before the online narc. I might have sidestepped someone I didn’t warm to, but I certainly couldn’t have told you why. Now I think I know why.

            In terms of coming out of the experience, I do believe I’m a stronger person. Not due to the narc or that experience itself, but thanks to the learning that came after. The narc gets no gratitude from me. Not anymore. I am though very thankful that my eyes have been fully opened. You can’t fight what you can’t see. Now I do see.

            Xx

          29. Fiddleress says:

            TS, what you said about me sitting next to you when you were in your corner was very sweet indeed. To say the least.
            Any time xx

          30. JB says:

            TS, no, he didn’t say he was a firefighter, haha! To be honest, when I think about it, I don’t actually know very much at all about him. He somehow orchestrated things so that he ended up knowing my life story, yet I knew very little about him! Clever, when you think about it, grrr.. I have always been wary for this kind of thing with financial scams; someone asking lots of ‘harmless’ questions in order to cheat you out of money, I just never realised it could happen on a purely emotional level as well!

            I love your last sentence about not being able to fight what you can’t see and being glad to be able to now see! I think you’re spot on. We can’t change the world, and can only change ourselves to an extent, but we can be weaponised to see where our ‘weaknesses’/vulnerabilities are and deal with them xx

          31. NarcAngel says:

            TS

            Re: The LOL and candle exchanges that made you feel weird.

            Do you remember what you put the behaviour down to in order to be able to engage subsequently? For example – did you think you just didn’t get his sense of humour? That he was tired and a bit punchy? You decided to let it go and see if in subsequent contact he would refer to it and/or explain?

            Just curious.

          32. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Thank you for thinking about that, I can see you mulling it over trying to get a fix on it. No, I don’t mind you saying that, you can say anything to me LET and I would listen. I know where your thoughts and comments come from xx.

            I didn’t look at it like that, but I know what you mean. It does maybe sound like something other than the manipulations we read about or have experienced.

            The conclusion I drew at the time was that he was manic on those occasions. It’s the main reason I went the bipolar route. I assumed it was a bad joke gone wrong. An element of not knowing when to stop.

            I have a consultation booked in a few weeks. HG agreed to help me with my exam phobia. I’ll ask him to explain it to me and let you know! Now that you have said it I see why you view it as malice.

            Xx

          33. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I appreciate your generous response to my thoughts and questioning <3

            I'll be happy to hear any further feedback on it (while being conscious of the element of confidentiality surrounding consultation), and I'm delighted to hear you are booked in for some follow up around your exam anxiety. It's not something I considered in terms of consults until AV mentioned how helpful such discussions had been for her, and in some ways how expansive. I had no idea. The conversation with her has opened up a new perspective for me on what can be achieved here, and maybe for you, too 🙂

            All being well, it will make a difference. And the thought of Bipolar when it comes to your narc never occurred to me. Obviously, you're the one having the conversations 😛 and will have the best read on how and when the conversations took a turn for the worse. I just had a sense from what you said that these elements coming out of the blue, or the fact you were blindsided by them, was a sudden change in demeanour more under his control than not. Otherwise, I would think the change in demeanour would be more consistent in terms of the mood when it comes to Bipolar. No expert here, just basing it on what little I know from what you have said, and also with an understanding that narcissists can also operate with a sense of malice.

            No better person to get the lowdown from than the expert. I hope it goes well xox

          34. A Victor says:

            LET, thank you for sharing that, about how what I said about my consults had helped you. That is precisely the reason I shared it, and since it took a while until I felt comfortable to do so, I am glad to know it was helpful. I also had to take the time to figure out how to do it without breaching confidentiality and believe I was successful with that while still showing how much it has helped me. Thank you for your comment. <3

            TS, I am super excited for you to be having a consult! They are the best! For learning and for fun, HG is super fun! And so smart! You will love it! I recommend recording it, I listen back to mine all the time. And guess what? There is breathing! 🙂

          35. lickemtomorrow says:

            You are welcome, AV <3

            It truly was helpful to hear your thoughts and get some insight into your experiences xox

          36. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I did reply to this comment, but my response has not been loaded yet and I see you’ve commented further so I’ll reply to that in the meantime <3

          37. A Victor says:

            I thought the summer narc was bi-polar also.

          38. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Fiddleress,

            I meant it. Xx

            Exams end of day 2. Three more days to go. I’m really trying to register exactly how I feel about it. I feel panic, that’s what I feel, but I’m really trying to break it down further so that I can explain it better to HG. I’ve been thinking about when it all started, how my parents were throughout my education etc. I don’t really see any obvious problem there. Maybe I wouldn’t do if that was my norm.

            People usually write a list of questions to ask during the consultation. I’m writing a list of questions I anticipate I’ll be asked! So basically, I’m revising for my consultation! Haha. Perfect!

          39. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truthseeker,
            Thank you kindly for suggesting The Narcissists Double Abuse video, I keep forgetting about You Tube.
            Everyone should listen to this one, Mr Tudor outlines very clear realisations and unexpected definitions of ‘abuse’ we tend to ignore, overlook, unaware of or are completely oblivious to.
            Your story truly highlights ‘disturbing’ red flag behaviour, yet one we could internally translate as a bit of fun n banter and view as harmless because it’s not done in an aggressive manner or physically threatening.
            The ‘one’ I really felt particularly uneasy with, was the narc’s reference to sharing clothes with your 9 year old !!!! That’s an absolute ‘no no’ for me, even in jest and what’s more disturbing is this took place with someone online!
            I think we all love a bit of jovial sparring, pushing the boundaries (within reason) and a bit of extra intellectual brain play ….. sadly those that ‘present’ themselves are usually the wrong people to engage with
            I’m a great one to use fun gifs,( as you all know haha) memes n emojis and go completely ott with celebrations ….. however, I don’t have underlying ill intentions …..mine is used for good not evil!
            I’m relieved you can now look back n reflect on his behaviour in a very detailed n analysed comparison
            Thank you ever so much for sharing TS, your ‘hands on experience’ is helping us to observe more varied narcissistic examples to watch out for
            💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          40. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            I thought some more about your comment to me yesterday. It’s funny, if someone else had written my comment about the narc I would see it clearly. I would concentrate on what they had written and what that indicated. it wouldn’t be toned down in my mind due to the ‘good bits’.

            When it’s yourself, you can describe what happened, but in your head you still place the behaviours in context of the person who supported, answered, ‘cared’. Even though I know now he didn’t care, he’s still confusing because to a degree, I still place him in that more positive context.

            Those strange episodes, the disappearances, apparent mood swings etc didn’t all arrive back to back. He could change mood in an instant. So online, often you assume you misinterpreted or read too much into what you just saw because a minute later he is back to being nice again. He told me “You’re overthinking again.” I do overthink, but it was him that brought that out more.

            It’s true, the feisty side definitely gave as good as she got. That might be a school element but a lot is down to the area I grew up in. Northerners are bred to be quick off the mark! HG is correct, humour can be a weapon, it can also be used as a defence. If I tease, it’s gentle, obvious. He didn’t tease. He attacked. Fortunately, the things he attacked, weren’t weak spots of mine and the Northerner in me was quick to the defence.

            He did far better against me with things like threatened loss. “You can have one last message, then I’m deleting the apps.” I’d like to say I responded with “ **ck off !“ I didn’t. I thought about it though haha! A minute before, we had had a really lovely conversation, then that. Strangely, it was that comment that woke me up. That one I could put a name to. You just don’t do that to someone. Not long after, I arrived here.

            They find a way to win. As you said, empaths don’t have the same capacity for cruelty. It’s just not in our nature to be emotionally cruel. It can never be a fair fight on that basis. HG is right, there is only one way to really beat them. That’s just to leave them behind. Xx

          41. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I understand the placing of the narc in a more positive context when trying to understand their negative behaviours. They set a ‘standard’ during the golden period and this is what we are judging them by for the most part. As you say, the responsive person we knew doesn’t align with this new person we are being exposed to in a moment that appears as a glitch on our radar. The momentary slipping of the mask is experienced as a glitch, so we seek an explanation for that, but in the context of their more usual behaviour. We don’t know yet that the glitch is the norm, and the standard is an illusion.

            I’m actually starting to despise your narc 😛 so allow me to be pissed on your behalf!

            This is bringing out my Saviour cadre BIG TIME! That element of him accusing you of overthinking when he is the one generating the confusion and playing with you like a cat with a mouse …. GRRRR!!! Such typical narc fare, and reminds me of mine as well, so I’m being cross for both of us x

            I see you have a number of elements in terms of defence and being a Northener is one of them 🙂 It’s interesting how the character of place also feeds into who we are. I wonder if that was part of what attracted him to you? He enjoyed the challenge, and also messing with your mind 🙁

            I remember some really cringeworthy moments with my narc where I should have responded the way you suggest … with a “**ck off!” … followed by walking away and never looking back. And there were times I did respond in a more forceful manner with that kind of determination, but I didn’t understand hoovers or narcissistic relationships then. I was like a puppet on a string. And that is how the narcissist wants it.

            I had similar lovely conversations, expectations, assumptions, and a trigger would occur, or the fuel requirements were not being met, and suddenly I would find myself eating dirt. It’s very disconcerting, especially when you don’t know what’s going on, and it can also be devastating. I also experienced threatened loss on a number of occasions which is how mine had me hamstrung, too.

            And we don’t have the same capacity for cruelty. The fight in that sense will never be fair. I don’t know why I keep expecting that, but I do. And it’s in my nature as an empath to assume people will take others into consideration and for the most part do the right thing. I think this is where the narcs continue to win. We need to become more bloody minded just like them. I know HG recommends against it. For now, it is just better to take the high road, that being the one away from the narcissist and all their manipulations <3 xox

          42. JB says:

            TS, what you said to LET about threatened loss, the online person I knew did this a lot as well. Just like that and over bizarre things. You would be having a perfectly nice chat, banter, etc, and suddenly he would become irritable over something (one time because I was a bit slow off the mark to understand a joke), and before I knew it, I would be told that ‘this is negative’ and threatened with no more contact! The first time that occurred, it really floored me, as I always try to look on the positive side, and what he was saying was just so damn inaccurate, it actually confused me! I rarely argue with anyone as I try to be conciliatory all of the time and see both sides, but with him I increasingly felt like he was inventing things that were wrong and then threatening to cut me off for them. I have come to learn a lot about myself from this – clearly I must have some kind of fear of being abandoned, as my head said ‘Well fuck off then, you complete fuckwit”, but my heart panicked and would attempt to make things right by looking at my own actions and blaming myself. It is bizarre – why should I give a toss if some random bloke doesn’t want to talk to me anymore? But I did. And that is what I need to address – why I fear losing people so much, even ones like him! Xx

          43. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA,

            Sorry, I’m not getting all the notifications, just saw your question as I was notified about JB’s comment.

            The LOL and the candle blitz, I put it down to a suspicion he was bipolar. It seemed ‘manic’ to me. One image after the other etc. We had been up talking through the night. It was around 3 am, so in my mind, lack of sleep, erratic, manic, suggested bipolar. The candles were the third episode along a similar image bombing vein, months had elapsed in between, I considered his behaviour to be cyclical. I now know it is in a sense.

            Me being me (straight talker) I came out with it a few days after. I asked him directly if he was bipolar. I didn’t link it to or refer to what I considered to be his ‘manic’ episodes, I linked it loosely to his lack of need for sleep. That was how I raised it. You can estimate what happened next haha! Silent treatment for a week or so. Asking the bipolar question would be a threat to control. Almost a wound as it was so straight up and matter of fact.

            In my world, if I had been asked the same question I would answer “No. Why would you ask that?” His silence nudged me to think that perhaps he was bipolar. As time wore on though, as I researched depression and bipolar disorder in men, I realised that he didn’t really fit the profile.

          44. Asp Emp says:

            TS, interesting but I am not surprised RE: the ‘bipolar’. I may have mentioned it to you before that the MRN I was ‘entangled’ with told a colleague about him being bipolar (I suspect to ‘explain’ away his ‘strange’ behaviours) – he did not mention it to me at all, probably because he knew I would have started asking a lot of questions about it (LOL). I dunno, maybe some narcissists do a bit of ‘research’ into behaviours when people start questioning about – maybe after an appraisal / supervision / mentor session with a line manager? Would be interesting if HG can find out more (or share) on this RE: narcissists ‘researching’ into behaviours = becoming aware of themselves (as some can do)?

            Laughing “I researched depression and bipolar disorder in men, I realised that he didn’t really fit the profile”.

          45. Truthseeker6157 says:

            JB,

            Oh you did make me laugh there. Yes, exactly, I did think the same with my head, and got over ruled by my heart.

            You can’t get a clear view. Online makes it even less clear. Even on the blog things can escalate due to misinterpretation of the written word. So there is always that doubt and ET ramps it up to the maximum effect. You can’t quite believe what you just saw, so you search for an explanation. It’s bizarre and entirely disorienting. That said, face to face they disorient as well, the black and white thinking and compartmentalisation ensures confusion. Keep us confused and we will delay taking action until we get that clear view.

            Your point about your fear of loss. Yes, similar. At that point in time I was particularly isolated. It’s a bit like catching flu. If you are healthy, looking after yourself, you could walk into a party where someone had flu and you would be untouched by it. If you are low, run down, you could walk in and catch it. We all have ups and downs, it’s very possible your narcissist caught you on the down.

            I think it’s very sensible to examine this part of yourself. That’s part of weaponising yourself in my view. Just to be aware, not necessarily to change. Circumstances surrounding relationships impact our behaviour within them. Your fear of abandonment might be due to circumstances at that time, or, it might be deeper routed. Recognising it though, working that part out, can only protect you further as you move forward. Xx

          46. NarcAngel says:

            TS

            Thanks for your reply, I’m not getting all the notifications either based on other replies I now see on this thread.

            LET raised a good point in the tendency to see the “golden” behaviour as standard with anything else anomaly because we can’t fathom it being the other way around.

            When I was a kid I asked my mother why she stayed after the first time he beat her. Certainly the second time in case she was in shock the first time. No answer. I couldn’t understand how I could see it as a child but she couldn’t, so I rationalized that the difference must be sex, because we as children loved her and would not do such a thing. That sex must be a powerful weapon. I was right, but I didn’t know to factor in addiction. That children are left to rationalize such things about what is demonstrated to them (even if the abuse is mental cruelty or neglect over physical) is a tragedy. They are always observing.

          47. lickemtomorrow says:

            So true, NA, that children are always observing. I was the observant child in my family, and the one who sought to read the signs to keep the peace. Ultimately, that was also for my own survival, but that is what children do. And you seemed to have rationalized fairly well as a child to come to the conclusion that sex must be the answer. The addiction is often beyond even an adult’s comprehension. But what you did know was that this other person had a hold over someone you loved and you didn’t know how to break that spell. Ultimately you were left to wonder why your parent, knowing your vulnerability, didn’t put you first. They don’t seem to realize that you are going through this with them. That even if they are taking the beating, you are being traumatized by it as well. I wonder if you laid blame at your mother’s feet, or how that impacted your relationship with her? You say you loved her, and many children will also try to intervene in those circumstances. I’m not sure if you were the oldest (I get the impression you were), but often the eldest will act as a protector of parent and siblings alike. They will take responsibility. For your mother not to give you an answer to your question must have been devastating at the time. You were trying to help her see, but the narcissist had her blinkered. I’m not sure if you were ever able to get those blinkers off her, but it’s apparent you tried. It’s terrible to be able to see and not be able to do anything to change the situation, especially as a helpless child.

          48. A Victor says:

            NA, your comment makes so much sense. I remember those same thoughts, if it’s so terrible, if he’s so terrible, why are you still here, with him? Or vice versa, though he talked of it much less often. It was part of the cognitive dissonance, hearing and seeing two different things and then trying to make sense of that. What was really hard about your comment was the worse thought of how much did I do that to my children. Far too much, far too many times. This is one way it gets passed from one generation to the next. But the good news is, that now, because of your comment, I can develop some thoughts about how to show it to my daughter who is married to a suspected narc, so she can possibly protect her children. I cannot thank you enough for that.

          49. JB says:

            TS, I think the flu analogy is spot on. To be honest, lots of things came together at the same time to make me ripe for the picking. We had been speaking online, then one day out of the blue he private messaged me, wanting to further discuss something we (both, supposedly!) felt passionate about. Normally I would be highly suspicious of a ‘stranger’ doing that, but it filled a gap at the time that needed to be filled; I was appreciative of the attention, I suppose. That sounds awful, writing that. Makes me sound like a right attention seeker! I think I was at a crossroads in my life, and he was just there, saying the right things at the right time. I guess the same is true of being defrauded by one of the phone scams..if they get you on the wrong day, you may well be taken in. I’m glad I have learned what I needed to, but won’t be taking my eye far off the ball this time!

            By the way, loved your comment about being northern being part of your defence! 😂

          50. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Saviour firing up huh? Got to love that part of us xx Thank you for getting angry on my behalf, not that I want you to feel angry but I think shows that you totally understand why I was confused by his behaviours and reacted the way I did. If a Saviour feels the need to defend then usually she’s right. Xx

            Yes, the golden period did set the scene and the dark episodes seemed not to fit. As you say, it’s actually the other way round but we couldn’t have known that at the time. None of us do. They trade off not being seen. I think the other thing for JB and I to consider is that our devaluations will have been corrective due to our position in the fuel matrix. They weren’t sustained for days or weeks. Intermittent. This likely muddies the waters further.

            The rapid switch you experienced through having a really good patch where all was well only to be cast down in the dirt must have been so entirely confusing plus kids involved too, a home, joint finances, all of it would slow down that decision to go. You did go though, that’s the thing, you did leave. You are no contact now, so you did win.

            It isn’t possible to fight on their terms. I do see us winning by withholding though. Ensuring that they will never again draw from us what they need. This to me is the way to win.

            Yes, I do think the geographical area I grew up in has equipped me to perhaps handle certain situations. I’ve noticed since living further South that that general pace of humour is far slower. The banter with the narc did give me a buzz. His humour felt like home when I was away from home. For him the mind games would be more of an option I suppose due to the online nature of ensnarement. Mind games were alien to me, there I was out of my league.

            I’ll ask HG what he thinks about the narc’s behaviour, if he’s happy for me to share the answer I’ll give you HG’s take on it. It can be my warm up question haha, I’ll need to lock on to him anyway and find my pace, it’s a good place to start.

            Yes, there are options for consultation other than direct ‘narcissism’ related discussions. I wasn’t sure HG would agree to work with me on it but I’m glad he did. I view my phobia in many ways as a need for control. I think this is my problem. There is quite literally no one better to deal with that than HG. We’ll have to see what falls out of the discussion, either way, I’m looking forward to the consultation.

            Xx

          51. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, always happy to be defensive on behalf of another empath <3 Understanding the Saviour element helps in that respect. Even though I know you have it all in hand x

            The issue of devaluation is an interesting one. Setting that within the context of the fuel matrix makes it even more so. A corrective devaluation seems more like a slap on the wrist in terms of a warning not to do that again. My last narc's main forms of devaluation were triangulation and silent treatments. They could feel like a slap across the face. He would praise someone else's effort while completely ignoring mine, engage with another woman in an animated fashion and seem bored or reluctant to engage with me, tell me he despised somebody then discuss personal issues with them I thought had only been discussed between us and have that come back to me via a third party. Give me a silent treatment when I suggested a friend may have had a more wholesome family life enabling him to achieve more, which was an attempt on my part to reassure him when he made what I know now was an obvious pity play around the fact his friend had done more/better/etc. Those were all "what just happened?" moments to mention a few. So he did get angry, act out (but never physically except by walking away), and generally changed demeanour during devaluation which should have told me in no uncertain terms that something wasn't adding up. Of course, I thought it was me. Like we all do. But I challenged him often on those things. And he always had some kind of excuse. His excuse for the silent treatment was he had used the word 'conservative' with a small 'c' in relation to himself and his seeming lack of bravado. Huh? What's the difference between small 'c' and big 'C'? And he was speaking 'fiscally' apparently. Huh?, again. How do you makes sense of this sh*t?! I knew I hit a sore spot without meaning to, but he wouldn't admit it, so I just told him I wouldn't try to 'psychoanalyse' him again.

            I honestly don't know if that was a corrective devaluation, and now I'm a bit confused if only secondary sources get those. Or if that is just their main source of devaluation.

            You also mention the time periods and the devaluation being sustained for an IPPS. I'm starting to feel like I need to look into this area a little more. To my mind a sustained devaluation is intermittently marked by "periods of rejoicing". Definitely. This could relate to something like intimacy, where the narcissist refuses sex, drops all forms of intimacy, goes cold, lets you know this aspect of your relationship is distasteful to them and leaves you high and dry for days, weeks or months. In the meantime you are left to wonder if they just don't want it or are getting it somewhere else. I was left to wonder this on a number of occasions. And when the tap was turned on again it was a "period of rejoicing". I could conclude any number of things were the problem, and didn't try to push the issue, though I did question it before realizing I had to accept things on his terms. Because I am an idiotic Co-Dependant who got suckered in again.

            You may be confusing my marriage and my most recent entanglement, TS, though I've shared only snippets of each. My ex-husband and I had to resolve issues around children, home, finances, etc. The last narc and I had not joined forces to that extent. I had always been wary since my marriage, plus I had also put my children first, so I did maintain a separate life to a certain extent. We had separate homes, he had an elderly mother who was also a concern to him, and my children were older and away from home which kept them out of it for the most part. My eldest daughter probably drew closest to him as potentially they shared some narc traits in common 😛 They admired eachother to a certain extent, and there were times she would assume I was the troublemaker when he and I fell out, but only because I had the willingness to challenge him and she, being a normal, probably couldn't see the point in all the drama. My middle daughter would never entertain the idea of her mother with another (very protective) so wisely didn't allow her empathic nature to get in the way and basically kept her distance. And my son was mostly neutral. In some ways, they just wanted their mother to be happy so stepped back to see what would happen. As you know now, it didn't end well. They empathized, but weren't particularly overwrought themselves. As independent young adults I didn't expect them to be. But they were very supportive at the same time.

            His mother passed away during the time we were together. I had spent so much time supporting him in that scenario, too, but in the end in some ways it gave him a new lease on life, and though my devaluation had been going on for almost a year, he managed another six months with some intermittent golden periods before our first major breakup. The next six months confused the hell out of me as he came and went, all the while setting himself up for a final discard (which we know now never happens and didn't). But he left, as in physically removed himself to another place, and that created the perfect opportunity for escape which is around the time I ended up here. I used that time to begin my crossing of the emotional sea, but my no contact regime was not in full effect and I continue to learn as I go.

            I will be excited to hear any feedback from your consult, and that would be a good place to start <3 With the narc. He sounds like an interesting (if nasty) kettle of fish, and mine seems much more bog standard narc fare in comparison! Although, once again, I'll let it rest on the issue of confidentiality and HGs advice to you around that (but I will be bummed if we don't get a little more insight 😉 ).

            And I don't think narcissists are the only ones with a need for control at times, so the questions keep arising for me as well. I'm glad you are looking forward to your consult. I have every confidence it will make the world of difference to you xox

          52. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Yeah, bipolar was something I looked at for a while. Lashing out is apparently more common with men in terms of depression than it is with women. Information available online is often patchy and conflicting. Looking at any psychological disorder online is difficult when starting from scratch.

            I think as time wore on there was a gradual realisation that nothing was going to come from it in terms of a relationship. I was moving away from that idea slowly. The main reason was that underneath it all, I knew I wouldn’t feel comfortable introducing him to my kids. So something in me somewhere was holding back and was at least recognising that this person wasn’t safe.

            It didn’t stop the interaction itself, I would still have met up with him again etc but that was me and my risk, not them. I drive like a lunatic when I’m alone in the car. I would never do that with them in the car. Similar thinking.

            Yeah it does seem funny now when I think about it, ‘he didn’t fit the profile.’ Too right he didn’t!

            There’s a photo burned in to my mind. It was obviously taken on a night shift, he looks sleepy, his hair really short how it suited him, these massive blue green eyes looking into the camera. That’s who I saw when I was online, always that picture, harmless. I read the odd messages but it was that image I saw. I never witnessed an angry face or a cold hard stare, I never heard a raised voice or a sharp tone. Difficult to contextualise the words and the person when you have that innocent image burned into your mind.

            There was far more of

            “Show me something interesting.” (me)
            Pic of a coffee mug on the edge of a fire engine
            “Start it up and put the lights on, go on.”
            “I’m in the yard”
            “I see that. Go on.”
            Five second video of fire engine with lights on. “Happy?”
            “ Haha yes. Narc?”
            “Yep?”
            “It would have been even better with the siren on too.”
            “That’s enough indulging for you for one day.”
            “Haha”

            Stupid stuff really. That was more us. The dark side just didn’t fit. The strangest people ever.

          53. Asp Emp says:

            Hey TS, thank you for sharing your views RE: bipolar. Yes, I agree, the fact that we saw both the facade / internal – it came as a surprise coming from the MR I knew. We have learned so much through KTN blog. I would say it is also probably your maternal instincts RE: the narcissist around your children (not just the empath in you).

            Laughing……were you calling him ‘Narc’? LOL.

            I am currently listening to ‘Sanctuary’ – can’t watch it while I am typing though. I’m so looking forward to the match tomorrow, I was vocal during the semi-final (LOL).

          54. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp, my understanding of bipolar disorder is patchy to say the least. I did accurately spot it in a work colleague but other than that I can’t claim to be any expert at all.

            The use of a name. No, I didn’t call him Narc haha! It’s funny though, during the time I was interacting with the narc that is something I noticed.

            I used his name reasonably regularly. Private communication so it wasn’t necessary as such. I do use names in my phrasing though. I would use his name to pull him back when I could feel things escalating. In a kind of “ listen to me now” sense. I used his name to show affection after a nice conversation if I was saying goodnight etc. So there was a specific use, mainly for emphasis.

            In contrast, he used my name only once in the entirety of our communication. One Christmas Day when he wished me Merry Christmas. He used a nickname for me early on. That tapered off but he would use it on occasion, usually to get round me and it worked. It reminded me of how things were at the start and I responded to it.

            At the end, as I was starting to pull away, the name was one of the things I pointed out. I told him he only used my name once and that my opinion on that was that it was down to the fact that he didn’t see me as a person, he saw me simply as “words on a page.” I was so damn close so many times to nailing it myself, I just didn’t have the word for what he was.

            All these little details, I would at least spot them again. Next time I will know exactly what they mean and I won’t forgive them. There will be no second chances given.

          55. Asp Emp says:

            TS, RE: bipolar, did you tell the colleague or keep it to yourself?

            I helped a guy who was diagnosed with Aspergers many years after he was diagnosed with Bipolar. I used my ‘lateral’ thinking & writing methods to explain to him what Aspergers is – I think because he wanted to be able to ‘separate’ the two in behaviours, if you like. I suppose when it is ‘newly’ diagnosed, people can react like, WTF, what ‘parts’ of me is Bipolar and what is Aspergers? That, in my view, is a natural ‘response’. I think he was confused about the ‘hyper’ part of his characteristics (ie the ‘panic’ – similar to a narcissist going through as I described the MR – giggling here at the memory as I wrote in ‘The Narcissist’s Reality Gap’).

            Just reading back what I have typed so far, what I have noticed, is that once diagnosed, people are not necessarily given ‘Fact Sheets’ by the medical professionals – not that I am aware of anyway. Or where to find it (ie most appropriate website) etc. I think it is their ‘duty’ to do so, especially when a patient is going through, possibly ‘shock’ at being given a ‘label’ (explanation) for their characteristics. I’d give a narcissist a piece of paper with ‘404’ on it 😉

            Interesting, to use their name to ‘recall’ them back to here and now. Yeah, I did the same when MR was ‘going off the track’ – interrupting him. Towards the “end” (giggling again here, the explosion ‘event’, sorry I should say, MY explosion ‘event’) – he kept saying his IPPS’s name, so part of my anger was the fact that he kept doing that despite my ‘effort’ & time & support over a 6 year period. So, my anger was justified.

            “I was so damn close so many times to nailing it myself, I just didn’t have the word for what he was”. Just one word? One?

            I didn’t call him names, just swore to ‘emphasise’ my points.

            RE: your last paragraph – wise words. That is what I told myself and a couple of friends “no second chances”. God knows, I’ve been cheated on so often but with a narcissist, it was much more difficult to ‘question’ them and call them out. Hmmm, yup, educated empaths are wising up. I would never ‘cheat’, never done it.

          56. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            You’re right, I was confusing your two relationships, thank you for explaining that to me, I see now what you are driving at and how you are viewing yourself in the second ensnarement.

            Financially you weren’t linked to the second narc in that your households were kept separate, mentally though it was a committed partnership. He was involved in your life, in your day to day, he had built relationships with your children, and close ones too, you would have rejected him otherwise. So to all intents and purposes it was a union. LET, it’s only normal to try your hardest to make a relationship work. What you describe sounds like sustained devaluation but with those brief respite periods that HG describes. Sex and the withholding of it seems like a preferred option for your narc, triangulation, silent treatments. All options because you were physically together in each other’s company. I don’t see your behaviour as that of an ‘idiotic CoDependent’, I see it as someone trying to understand what was happening, questioning the behaviours, and overall, someone just trying to make it work. The push pull must be incredibly confusing. It falls in line with the normal good patch bad patch of normal relationships, I don’t think many would recognise it when they are in it.

            We all have cut off points. The line that is crossed where we say ‘No. We’re done here.’ As CoD your line is further in maybe, but your confusion during devaluation will have been similar to other schools. So it’s not idiotic, not at all. We operated and interpreted through our own perspective. We could never have known their’s was different.

            I have to place myself in the category of NISS. I didn’t sleep with him. We did meet up a few times, but I’m old fashioned haha. If we aren’t in a relationship and you won’t clarify the relationship then I’m not going to bed with you, end of. Same with boob pics and the like. They have their place, and a valid one, in a relationship. So the crazy thing is I have to have been NISS. Low in the pecking order then, and yet I can’t emphasise enough the sheer amount of time we were together in terms of communication.

            My devaluation can’t therefore have been sustained. It has to have been corrective. I think I’m just so outspoken I needed a lot of correction! Haha! I think about some of the things I said to him and am amazed I lasted as long as I did! In many ways he doesn’t fit the profile, agree with you there but then similarly, much of what is written concentrates on the normal proximate relationship, less so the LDE. So it could be that he exactly fits the profile of behaviours, we just haven’t seen the information. You are annoyed at yourself for not getting out sooner. At least you were an IPPS. I was just an NISS and I went full on wappy! It depends which way you look at things doesn’t it? Overall what matters though is what the ensnarements meant to us. How they affected us, and there is no doubt, we all were damaged, just in different ways.

            I’m fortunate in that I didn’t fully bring him in to my day to day life. I confided more of my inner self to him than anyone else. More of what makes me tick. First time and the last. As far as the ins and outs of the day to day though, no, I discussed only a very small part. Different for you, he was your day to day, he was all around you.The style of devaluation will have been different, aside from the corrective / sustained element.

            Speaking of confiding, my big issue haha, as the consultation gets closer, I’m getting more twitchy. I’m not nervous about talking to HG, I’m looking forward to that part but talking about myself for an hour having to give information about a current problem is making me back up. I can feel the walls coming up already, I’m already redirecting in my mind. Maybe the conversation about the narc will end up being the focus, don’t know. Either way, I’ll be wiser at the end than I was at the start, and I won’t leave you bummed out if I can possibly avoid it! Xx

          57. A Victor says:

            Hi TS, your comment made me think. I am am ACON. I have been an IPPS, for many years, and an IPSS of the shelf variety, possibly Candidate. The intimate part of that one was via email and phone as I was also a LDE that time, that one was very short lived. I have experienced both the sustained devaluation and the corrective kind. Good grief, I have not written that out before. Anyway, all that to say I was “full on wappy” with both of the relationships, the devaluations both played out pretty much exactly as Hg has explained, especially when considering the schools and cadres of the relevant narcs and that they both left me damaged and shaken to the core. Probably the biggest factor that had made my recovery from each different was the length of involvement. I believe had the LD relationship been many years and the IPPS one much shorter, the damage from each would have correlated, with regard to my emotions and recovery time. I’m not certain if this is relevant but I tend to believe the ACON status is actually the one that has left the most damage, in my case. It’s the one I have the most lasting effects from, things I need to change, things that will help all relationships I have or will have going forward. Anyway, I just wanted let you know that your experience, your devaluations, how you felt at the end and following, all so valid, so real. Sometimes I feel you downplay it, maybe I’m wrong. But it happened and it brought you here. I am happy about the second part of that sentence, you bring a lot of great thoughts out and do so very well.

            LET, please don’t call yourself an idiot Codependence, you were ensnared and being hoovered and had high ET and no knowledge about narcissism yet. That’s all.

          58. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you for your kinds words, AV <3 I really appreciate them xox

            For some reason, I keep forgetting about the high ET which will always impact on our logic. Not knowing about narcissism is the biggest barrier for sure. Thank God we are here x

          59. A Victor says:

            Hey TS, if my previous comment was off base, please disregard it. After rereading yours, maybe I misunderstood.

          60. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, thank you for saying you don’t think I am idiotic x I think at some level we all feel like idiots because that’s what the narc ultimately makes us … fools. But the joke in the end is on them. They each lost something amazing when they lost us – and I’m speaking to all the beautiful empaths here – and we can never be replaced, as unique as we are. Now I tend to think in terms of ‘your loss’ if I think about the narc rather than the devastating sense of ‘my loss’ when I arrived here. I’d say that’s a marked improvement, though some of the sorrow at times still lingers. It could have been so good if he wasn’t a narcissist. Dismissing those thoughts as soon as they arrive, though. Good riddance!

            It’s interesting to understand our place in the fuel matrix, and by all accounts whenever you speak of your narc, I never get the impression you were just an NISS. I think it sounds more like a Candidate IPPS, even though the intimacy had not reached a level which could have put you higher in the fuel matrix. Otherwise, why spend so much time with you? It doesn’t sound like he had anyone else on the end of his fishing line, and not sure if he might have been more Cerebral Elite than Somatic in his cadres? I remember you saying he would occasionally sign off by giving you his ‘wanking’ status, so maybe he was happy to satisfy himself (which we know they prefer anyway). According to HG, narcs would not be able to live their lives online in terms of fuel needs, so who else could have been in his background fulfilling the position of IPPS? This is all becoming very fascinating, but I don’t want to pry and I’m not getting paid to do detective work 😛 I do love it, though!

            So, I don’t see you as an NISS (though I don’t know HGs verdict), and can completely understand the committment you made to your online relationship and how it affected you. We invest, as empaths, we have empathy. We connect. We pour out that delicious fuel. There’s no way we don’t experience the effects of that, especially when it all comes to an end. Doesn’t matter who ends it. It’s over. And it hurts. I would caution against making comparisons in terms of where any of us sat in the fuel matrix in that sense because I honestly believe it is our own mindset and committment, investment and sense of connection, which have the greatest effect when the relationship with the narcissist ends. Whether it comes crashing down in a Supernova event, whether it is a soft silencing of communications over a period of time, it all adds up to an ending we often aren’t prepared for and the breaking of a heart that was sincere. Online or in person a heart can be broken, and we have all been left to pick up the pieces. You are, or have been, entitled to your sorrow, TS.

            I see you are feeling nervous about your consult, and I’m sure HG will handle things with his usual sense of aplomb and chivalry <3 I mentioned here previously the consult that was inadvertently loaded to YT, and after hearing that I'd say no one should ever have any qualms about doing a consultation with HG. He couldn't have been more diplomatic xox

          61. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            I didn’t use the word bipolar with my work colleague. Instead I described to her what I saw and felt. I worked with her on two separate occasions, in two separate locations. The first time, she was a complete live wire, into everything, never still, always doing. She spoke ten to the dozen and would leap subject to subject with no apparent link in between the two. The funniest person I’ve been around, unfiltered in many respects. I knew she didn’t sleep much either. I never had the slightest problem with her, she needed a target, if I gave her something to run at, run at it she would. I moved on and she stayed, but they had real problems with her. She had a massive row with another employee and it was quite nasty by all accounts.

            Second time I worked with her, there was nothing behind the eyes, lethargic, she was turning up but doing the bare minimum, different person altogether. I asked how she was, tried to get some spark, just nothing. I told her I was concerned about her, described the differences and asked if there was anyone she could talk to. Asked if she thought her doctor might be able to help etc. I didn’t use the word bipolar, I just described what I saw. She did see the doctor, she was diagnosed as bipolar. I had already moved on again but she contacted me to let me know. Very difficult thing to handle right when it’s a colleague rather than a friend. There’s a difference though between a bad week and a complete personality shift. I’ve seen her since, she’s back to the person I met originally. Still a bit erratic, thoughts disjointed, I’m not convinced she has things fully under control, but similarly, I’m not close enough to her now for long enough to comment.

            I saw similarities with the narc but I also saw differences. The behaviours did appear to be cyclical but similarly the down cycle would last moments or days not weeks or months. Lashing out happened too quickly, fine one minute, completely different the next, then back to fine again. It was too fast to be bipolar disorder. The cycles will likely have been more in line with me and my behaviours, responsive to threats to control no doubt. Credit where credit is due, he didn’t react to every threat, not as far as I can tell, he must have had a reasonable hold on his fury. The threats to control weren’t delivered face to face either which likely lessened the impact.

          62. Asp Emp says:

            TS, ah, good way of doing it (what you observed of colleague). It shows that if there are understanding people around them, they can feel more ‘part of’ the immediate work environment. I hope she is ok after that experience (the row with employee). Hmm, good that you did help her in what you did. Pity that she could not gain some learning into ET / LT skills, well, she can but is this blog the right place for her? In my view, it could help her, in some way but it is not narcissism on her part. You’re a good lass, TS. 🙂

          63. JB says:

            AV, I am replying here as there wasn’t an option to reply to your comment nearer to where it was written, so I hope you see this..

            No need to apologise for not realising! You might not have realised the exact nature of my ensnarement because I have deliberately been a bit vague at times about the details, mostly because of shame. It’s not something I feel great about, to be honest xx

          64. A Victor says:

            JB, found your comment 🙂 ! I hope you don’t beat yourself up too badly, I do understand feeling that way though, I am not proud of a few things in my past either. But, if it helps, they are the predator, we are their prey. Until we know what they are, I don’t feel like we hold nearly the responsibility for what happens as they do. Also, for me, talking about those things here has helped me not feel the same sense of shame that I did prior, I have come to understand myself, what happened to me and why I made those choices, though I still have to face the fact that I did hurt people, it is on me to resolve that part. But, overall it has helped tremendously. I hope you find the same. 💗

          65. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            The man has a wicked sense of humour, I imagine it will be fun. I did think about recording the conversation. I decided against. I’m driving to get a stable phone signal, I was thinking about that more than anything else.

            I’ll be better just treating it as a conversation with someone I know rather than putting the word consultation next to it. If I do a second one, I might ask to record that one. Whelp! Never considered the breathing bonus. I’ll have to live it in the moment haha!

          66. Asp Emp says:

            TS, great that you are now going for the consult. I did not record anything either when I had my consult with HG. I’m glad you have decided to do this. 🙂

          67. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I’m glad my thinking out loud resonated with you and your situation. Feeling trapped must be awful. I’m lucky, I moved around so much, it was always reasonably easy to remove myself. The thought of not having the option to bolt scares me. I’m like Julia Roberts in runaway bride haha!

            Parts of my ensnarement still confuse me. They don’t bother me as such, they just confuse me. I’d like to know the thinking behind the manipulations. I know the objective was fuel and control. Why those manipulations though? To triangulate when he was out would have been easy, so did he not opt for that manipulation because he suspected I’d just step back and let him get on with it? Which is true, that’s exactly what I would have done, but did he know? How? The thinking fascinates me. There’s a reason for all of my moves. Is there a reason for theirs? Or is it less sophisticated than that? Chance, haphazard trial and error. At first I needed to understand to help get over it. Now I need to understand because I want to know how they tick.

            It sounds to me like you are slowly making peace with things. There is no blame and no stupid behaviour on our part. Really, we are set up to fail with the narcissist. You can’t get at the back of that. They do change the rules to win. Winning by withdrawal has to be the best one. That’s not winning, stand the hell up and face me you ***tard! No? See that silent treatment? Shove it right the way up your cowardly arse! Haha! There we are, much much better now! Xx

          68. A Victor says:

            TS, awful is an understatement! And I am an independent, free-spirit!! I almost wonder if he knew it was a good way to devalue me. Asshole. Anyway, one time we were in a therapy session and the therapist asked us to tell the other which of our children we were most like. I told him, no surprises. Then, he said our third daughter, a huge surprise to me! His reason was that she is a free-spirit and we are so alike in that way, it was frustrating to him. Okay, so narcs lie, maybe it was that. But, I was so surprised that he was so aware of that side of me, because he’d never before mentioned it! They really do know what they need to know to achieve their purposes I guess.

            Also, I have wondered about the same exact thing! What made certain manipulations be used on me as opposed to other ones. I think it has come down to, because they do observe us and know what will work, they know the ones to use to meet their prime aims most successfully. I still wonder what is under that though, what specifically did he see in me that caused specific things. And would another narcissist see the same things and thus use similar manipulations? I don’t think that summer narc would’ve! Yes, did my ex know that if he pushed in a certain way, I would’ve been gone? And if so, what was that way? I think they do know us very very well, even as they don’t at all. It is so strange. They only know what is needed for their own use, nothing else matters. Knowing us on any other level doesn’t matter. I want to know how they tick and also what they see in me.

            I feel like I have made leaps and bounds toward peace with things! It is very exciting! I am ready to move on in some ways, except that I need to talk to HG about some of that first, just to ensure that I am as ready as I think…?

            No winning for them, not today, not on my watch, never again. 🙂

          69. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            I’m pretty sure the candles thing was designed solely to get a reaction. He didn’t get one. I acted oblivious as usual. It’s funny you mention fire though. Considering he works for the fire brigade he has a picture on his Facebook of a firework on a cake where his face is right up against it. If he’s into fire he couldn’t be in a better job.

            I know what you mean about fire. There is something entrancing about it. When we lived in SC the house next to ours caught fire. The guy had a Corvette, beautiful looking car, it had an electrical fault and caught fire in his garage. Timber house, my favourite house in the area, burnt to the ground. Something very eerie about a burnt house. Five fire engines arrived to put out the blaze apparently. I slept through the whole thing. I’d wake up if one of my kids so much as sneezed, house burning down? Fast away in the land of nod.

          70. Asp Emp says:

            TS, laughing RE: him being a firefighter and his interest in all things fire? Wow that you slept through the whole episode of that house burning and not even hearing 5, yes, five fire engines?!

            Talking about this reminded me of the fire drills we had at school. The first one, totally and utterly freaked out a number of us – being newly boarders and in the middle of night, ah, fk, 100 plus girls from 11 to 17 years old, all outside in our dressing gowns, clutching our school uniforms, standing there like WTF shi**less. In the later years, it was like fkg hell, not again!

          71. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I’m starting to think your narc may be a pyromaniac … and I’m not kidding.

            We know HG also suffers from this condition. I’m can’t seem to get off the path I’m on in terms of my thinking here, so please forgive me. I am glad he never got closer to you than he did, in terms of meeting your children especially.

            Just as well it has ended, but if it hadn’t, I’d be the one offering to pay for a consultation x Unfortunately none of that will qualify me to know the results! Good luck X

          72. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            I was relating the definitions for general clarification purposes
            However, MY personal view …… ‘manipulation’ is without question a form of
            ……. ABUSE !!!
            But that’s just me !
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          73. A Victor says:

            Dear Bubbles,

            That is my view also!! 🙂

            AV

          74. JB says:

            AV, just seen that one of my replies to you earlier was in the wrong place, so am reposting..

            AV, ah thank you! Xx How funny that we both experienced that same sudden feeling of realisation. There are times when I find myself doubting though, thinking maybe I got it all wrong!

          75. A Victor says:

            JB, you did not get it all wrong. I don’t know if you have consulted with HG but this is one area that he helped me massively. It was one of the most beneficial and freeing things I have learned here.

          76. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I read your second comment about disregarding your first, I actually think you made a good point though.

            From what I’ve read, I have to agree with you. The damage sustained through having a narcissist for a parent has to be greater. The influence is prolonged, it occurs during the formative stages of the child’s personality, they are entirely overpowered physically and mentally and there is no means for escape as they aren’t in any way able to look after themselves. The abuse forms a view of the world and the people in it, it contributes to outlook, behaviours, thought processes and interpretation. It invades every aspect I can think of. I can understand why you view the impact of being an ACON as being greater than impact felt through personal relationships later in life.

            I do down play the impact of the online narc because comparatively I can’t have experienced the same level of abuse as others in marriages / long term relationships with narcissists.
            It boils down to the fact that really, it can’t even have been love. It felt like love on my side. The loss of him was incredibly painful, that pain was real, but in the cold light of day, what was it really? What was it comparatively? At what point does a relationship turn to love? Is it when I sleep with someone? Tell them my thoughts and feelings? Put their needs before mine? Were the conversations I had with the narc worth less because we weren’t sitting across from each other at a restaurant table? Ultimately, I can’t have loved someone I met only a few times. I don’t believe in love at first sight. So logically I wasn’t even in love. I down play because I recognise that what I experienced, though real to me, can’t be on the same scale as what others have experienced.

          77. A Victor says:

            Hi TS,
            What I was trying to say with that comment was a bit different, and I didn’t know if I had successfully conveyed my thoughts. It was an exercise in writing down a bunch of stuff that I had not before and sort of sorting through it as I wrote the comment. Thank you for bearing with that!

            Anyway, I was not in love with the summer narc, not at all. Yet the ensnarement with him left me equally as rattled as the ensnarement with my ex. It didn’t last as long, I think due to the shorter time put in. Also, the recovery time has been much shorter, maybe because the time in was shorter or because I arrived here and have been learning. Anyway, my thinking was that your ensnarement was equally as traumatic, to you, as each of mine have been to me, yours was just of a different variety. It’s about what they do to us, it’s what our addiction takes us, I think. That’s all I was trying to say. I have read before that you downplay what happened to you, I don’t know that you need to, it was real, it affected you in a real way. It was enough to get you here, that says something even about the effect it had on you. I don’t think it’s about love or being in love with them, I think it’s about what they do to our ET, our addiction, our hopes, our expectations etc. And, you were manipulated, thus, you were abused. It hurts, all of it, it doesn’t matter the “scale”, it all hurts and we do well to recover so it’s less likely to happen again. That’s hopefully more what I was trying to convey. I think so.

          78. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Yeah, I was a fair bit worse this exam season, I was bad during the run up, bad during exam week but this time I couldn’t level out fast enough so my mood was down for a couple of weeks after. I’m better again now. I figured I needed to speak to someone. It’s not a nice to now, it’s more of a need to. I think I can justify taking HG’s time for an hour.

          79. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Honestly I didn’t really think too much about a link to fire but I suppose there is. School fire alarms are the best. We had one GCSE week, I remember the teachers all over us so we wouldn’t talk haha!

            I always fancied boarding school. Did you like it?

            I get the fire thing too. Fire is fascinating. I think narcs like the power of it, the destruction the speed of which it can get out of control. Bit like the CEO who likes to dress as a baby and be mothered. Creatures of control might appreciate something that is so obviously beyond control. Not sure. HG has mentioned his like of fire on occasion but not given much detail as to why.

            Xx

          80. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            I think when I look at the various manipulations I almost just see the narc as a machine. They are without the positive emotions and manipulate almost constantly, so in many ways I view them just as calculating. The Mid Rangers aren’t really though. They are responsive. Even then for the narcissism to be effective they must have to know their target well. They do listen, they just don’t show they listen unless it serves a purpose. Manipulations must be target plus situation specific. Not all manipulations would have been open to the online narc, couple that with all the information he had on me and the narcissism would provide an answer I suppose.

            The MMRA was different, different school, different environment too and even I was different then. My life was set up very differently to now. I suppose all things equal we might witness the similar selection of manipulations, silent treatments being a go to for the Mid Range for example, but with slight variation.

            The online narc loved silent treatments, threatened loss and the weird / shock factor. I exited the MMRA before devaluation so can’t compare directly. He was trying very hard to monopolise me and that’s always going to go down badly with me. I went along with the great sex and allowed the monopolisation to an extent but he very clearly overstepped the mark later on and that was the instant cut off.

            The online narc also opted for monopolisation but it felt different because my life was running concurrently. I still had freedom to come and go as I chose. One thing that was strange though. When he would go out with friends he would send pics and message me repeatedly during the course of the night and when he got home. I never did that. You would have thought that would have threatened control. I went out with friends and my focus was my friends so I didn’t text until I was home, then we’d chat and fall asleep as usual. I find that odd that he let me get away with that particularly given that he involved me when he was out.

            Now that I’m clearer I do see that I’m hard work. Privacy and my own space away from a partner is very important to me. I think the online narc recognised that whilst the real life narc didn’t. It is fascinating really.

            I’m glad you feel ready to move on. Consulting to establish where your ET is at is sensible. I remember saying to HG that my ET was low and he cautioned that it wasn’t as low as I thought it was. He was right, months further on I’d have to say I’m different now than I was then. Very difficult for us to tell where we are with our own ET. I think we are so relieved to feel better we think we’re further on than we think sometimes. At least that was the case for me. A consult to check can only benefit you.

            Xx

          81. A Victor says:

            Hi TS, great thoughts about ACON statusin your previous comment, I just reread that, you hit it on the head. I would only add that it has also hugely affected the other relationships I’ve had, from who to my behavior in them and everything in between. That might be the worst lasting effect.

            I had forgotten about your MMRA. Your comment about their manipulations being target plus situation specific says it well. And I think they know us, they observe and learn what makes us tick, to use later, but I felt like it was clinical, not relational. None of mine asked questions to really have a relationship with any kind of intimacy (not referring to sexual), and I could not get beneath their hard outer shells either, to really know any of them. Especially with my ex it seemed like we were on a stage performing. Odd.

            Did I say I was ready to move on? Oh dear. Well, I am chomping at the bit a little. But, I will not rush anything. The ET is improving but I believe you are correct that we are poor judges of it with regard to ourselves. The problem is that I am getting out more and meeting people and that makes. for temptation. Especially after being cooped up for a year and a half. But thank you for the warning, I will take it to heart!

          82. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Thank you so much for your message. I’m still shocked by how well you understand how I look at things. I shouldn’t be by now, we are cut from very similar cloth, but I still am. Xx

            I think in many ways you and I are our own worst critics. I have never read a single comment on the blog where I have thought the commenter was stupid for behaving in the way they did. Quite the contrary, I am in awe of the strength and resilience of the people here. Yet when it’s me, my behaviour and my situation, I pick fault, criticise and downplay. I have the feeling you are similar. Perhaps we all are wired a little bit that way. It’s the fight in us maybe. At some point each of us has had to fight in some way or another.

            I take your point about position in the fuel matrix. It is the way that we are ourselves, our own commitment that forms the largest part of our ensnarement, not position in the fuel matrix. I can see it in relation to others, I just couldn’t see it in relation to me. Thank you for nudging my thinking there in the way that you do.

            Next time I consult with HG I’m going to request that he looks at my position in the fuel matrix. I have thought that now I’m feeling better it doesn’t matter what I was, that it is a waste of HG’s time to look at it. From a learning perspective though, it irritates me that I still can’t work it out, and I am here to learn after all. The narc had to have been getting proximate fuel as you say. Honestly, I think that might have been coming from a family member.

            I think you are right. I think the narc was more cerebral elite than somatic elite. I had been thinking similar myself. The Professor Dark Cupid resonated with me, that set me off thinking along those lines. I think it ties in with the way I have to be in a relationship before I go down the physical route and I also have a certain type of guy I go for. I have to look up to them in some way, admire them. I go for intelligent / successful men. Not because of the materialism that that brings, but because of the respect that it inspires in me.

            You would think that my personality would be over shadowed by that success or super high intelligence, actually I feel more that I compliment it. Not like for like necessarily but my knowledge of people, how to motivate and inspire, compliments their technical intelligence. So it works for me and it works for them. The physical side is important, very important to me, but to really draw me in, I think someone has to get into my mind first. Online, it is more mind based. I think that’s why I came off worse in that situation than in the physical situation with the MMRA. Whilst the online narc fit the intelligence / success criteria less, the interaction was all about sharing thoughts, views, experiences. I saw him as brave, giving, in control, so I looked up to him that way. He got into my head, the ET no doubt glamourised and paved the way.

            HG was able to get through to me about my approach to exams. Part of that was what he said but part of it was also down to how I view his intelligence. If someone that bright is advising an approach then my respect kicks in and I’ll take the advice, I recognise it as being superior to my own approach. Upon arrival here I recognised his logic as being superior to my own confusion, so I handed over the reigns in a way, followed the logic. It’s almost vanity based isn’t it? Just going in the opposite direction! Useful in consultation but something that could be exploited in personal relationships. I’ll tell you more about the consult later 😉 I did have an “I carried a water melon” moment or three. I’m hoping they passed unnoticed haha!

          83. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            Thank you for your comment. I see what you mean now. It’s funny isn’t it? The longer we are out of ensnarement the more the memory of addiction fades. I attribute my behaviour to the Addiction less now than I did six months ago. That might be why I am more irritated with myself. Plus as I said to LET I am my own worst cynic in many ways. That might not always be a bad thing necessarily, it can make me push myself harder, but in this specific situation I’m perhaps less forgiving of myself. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is an addiction there. I think just now I look back at things with non addicted eyes.

            It played on my mind a little what I said yesterday about being ready to move on. I think it’s healthy for you to be out doing, going places and meeting people, absolutely. The caution was based on me of a few months ago that’s all. I thought my ET was lower than it actually was. Now I can see what HG meant at the time. Getting on with things and moving forward is a good thing. You have had time for your ET to fall. The lockdowns forced that, just be aware that another few months from now, you will be stronger again than you are now. Xx

          84. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            The pyromaniac idea, I’ve thought about this, I don’t think so. I think he is more about the shock factor. I think the shock factor again links back to need for attention therefore fuel.

            I had my consultation! The tone was easy, fun. The points HG made as regards the exam phobia were valuable and I think implementing what he suggested will bring my fear down within acceptable limits. I might book a session around Easter next year just to settle me as we start the run up to exam season.

            I asked HG about the LOL episode. There’s nothing suspect. It is typical narc fare. I have been given permission to share the response with you on the blog. It made perfect sense to me, particularly knowing the narc as I do.

            LOL is often used in a passive aggressive way. It’s a way of saying something unkind to someone, a dig, but then adding LOL on the end to say ‘Oh but I was only joking’. When I used it, I wasn’t being horrible, I was teasing / being playful. I do it here on the blog occasionally. For me it shows I feel comfortable with you, I like you. The narc won’t have seen it that way, for him it was a threat to control. He asserted control by filling pages with LOL. Essentially he was mocking me, but instead of mocking me once, he mocked over and over. That paraphrases HG’s response.

            I thought about it afterwards. He didn’t often try to mock me as such. I’m a reasonably confident person so I’m hard to get at as I’ve mentioned before. You’ll like this though. When we met up, we stayed in a hotel in the centre of the city. I arrived early, I always arrive early. I checked in, and went to the hotel bar for a coffee before starting to get ready. The bar was empty, the bar man was setting up, I sat at the bar as he did so, he was only young, friendly. The conversation started about why I was at the hotel etc. He told me all about the row he had with his girlfriend before work, I told him about the date. I told him I really liked the guy but couldn’t get a fix on what he thought of me. He advised and we chatted for about an hour in the end.

            Later that night, the narc and I stopped in the bar on our way back from our evening. I sat in the same spot at the bar. The barman smiled at me and said “ And what can I get for you? Coffee or something stronger?” He clocked the narc. I saw him assess just for a second, then his eyes went back to me. We had a couple of drinks, both of us chatting with the barman. It was easy, all was well.

            Over a year later, the narc commented on the barman. He said that the bar man had been laughing with him and making comments to him as an aside about how drunk I was. Fail. I always know where I’m up to with drink. I had a job where often I was the only girl in the group. It was necessary to keep pace at the bar. The narc had no idea about my coffee with the bar man so didn’t know that his loyalty would be to me not him. Clearly the comment was dreamt up to mock, to make me wonder about how I must have come across, looked etc. I know how I looked, fabulous! Haha!

            Mocking fits the profile in my mind. So the narc is not suspect, he is just your standard narc.

            Xx

      4. SParham says:

        I have a thing for sarcastic humor too. I love to laugh and HG’ humor makes his work all the more appealing. Maybe it lessens the impact of silly and nasty behaviors? HG says the very things that most, if any, will say even if they are thinking it.
        The whole sexist movement drives me crazy. Some days I feel like we’re watching the rewriting of history. I’m guilty af for thinking men in general were the problems. Not only was I enlightened about narcissism but I learned lessons that it wasn’t strictly males that caused issues.

        1. Violetta says:

          It sure isn’t! One thing I learned early was avoiding the school Queen Bees: you don’t want to be their victim, but you don’t want to be their friend either. This week’s lieutenant could be next week’s scapegoat. Fly under the radar if you can.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hi SParham,

          First of all, nice to meet you! I love seeing new faces on the blog.

          Yes HG has settled into his stride and found his bespoke style with the videos. I find the ‘A Very’ series thoroughly entertaining and he uses humour appropriately with the heavier subject matter. A narc who can read a room and respond accordingly is a very entertaining but dangerous narc indeed. HG does describe humour as a weapon. ( ‘The Narcissist and Humour’) Even though I know this, he is so convincing as to make me forget it sometimes.

          Yep, men are not the problem, it’s the narcissists. I’m spotting more and more of them these days but fortunately am not directly affected by any currently. Looking back, I can now see numerous narcs that were within my work and social circles.

          As I said to Bubbles, the whole woke movement is really starting to get to me. It’s so very judgemental. People will stop talking to people soon for fear of inadvertently causing offence. When people withdraw and stop communicating with each other directly, then we become less human and the danger is that narcissists will appear more human.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            TS

            I hear you on the woke movement.

            My feeling is that the woke movement has been hijacked (as most initially well intended things are) and it’s ruining things like humour for example, which can be the last bastion of hope for maintaining sanity. If people try hard enough they can be offended by anything. A better focus (in my humble opinion) would be on tolerance during our introspection and growing pains as a society rather than the rushes to judgement and condemnation we see so often now.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA,

            I agree, the woke movement will have been well intentioned and worthwhile before it was hijacked.

            There have been ridiculous articles in the press of late. From train conductors being disciplined for saying, “Good morning ladies and gentlemen boys and girls” to sponsors pulling sponsorship in response to a woke boycott of a new news channel (GB news). These are the narcissists and misguided normals I’m sure but they seem to be infiltrating everything.

            They organise themselves. It manifests as a targeted attack. No doubt some individuals have hundreds of accounts. The problem is that we don’t respond in a targeted way. We read the story and protest that it isn’t right. That it’s ridiculous or unfair, but we don’t take action in a cohesive way. The silent majority. We don’t take action probably as there is no overriding need for control like there is with the attacking narcissists.

            You’re right about humour. Chip away at that and we’ve got an almighty problem.

          3. Fiddleress says:

            TS, agreed on the woke movement and this: “People will stop talking to people soon for fear of inadvertently causing offence.”

            When a derogatory comment is made about something that a person cannot change because it is who they are, how they were born or became (thinking of illness here), then OK, I can understand why it may be deemed an offence.

            But if it is about a belief, whether it be religious, political, or anything else, I find it sad that people should feel offended. Are their beliefs so fragile?
            And I cannot, but cannot, bear people who will say you have no right to pass any sort of comment about a woman, say, just because she is a woman, even though she is talking shite or behaving horrendously and the comment addresses that.

            Makes me think of Farenheit 451: burn all books that might offend anyone.
            Or behead or otherwise murder anyone that dares to show caricatures that might offend any belief (“modern” version where I live).

          4. SParhan says:

            Nice to meet you too! Forgive me for not introducing myself. I am 50, an accountant and florist by trade, I live on the side of a mountain in Western NC and enjoy practically everything. Oh, I am married to a narcissist. My past employer’ were narcissist’ too. My mother was a narcissist and my father was largely absent due to drink and an IPSS. I’ve been mostly estranged from them since I was a teenager. I hold no grudges, it was just their situation at the time.

            As hard as I try to fly under radar I still seem to get attention. I’m not a magnet on my empath cadre results so I can’t see why. I am the quiet one that takes forever to share my life. I’ll get every story in my vicinity but no one can say that they know me. I’ve been described as silent and sneaky (😟) in my movements. I’ve only in the past year become comfortable with social media comments. I’m kinda developing a fuck it attitude and let stuff out.

            I’m VERY happy to be here. I wasn’t doing too hot before I stumbled onto HG’ YT page. I’m a reader by nature so I’m loving these articles and learning much from his writing and comments. I jump all over his YT page 🤗.

            I don’t say it lightly that y’all are the best. Thank you so much for welcoming me.

          5. SParham says:

            I’m so unhip that I had to ask my son wtf woke is. I used to be cool but lost that description somewhere in the nineties. 😄 He did say the the British use the descriptor more than American’ so I felt better.

            I watched my son and his colleagues fight off woke idiots in riots that came to town. A citizen reporter happened to be streaming the stand off on FB and I was glued to his coverage. I don’t think I’ve ever been torn up like I was during that time. It sucks to hear stories of multiple cussings hurled at cops by wokes sitting in comfortable cars while the cops are trying to deal with the antics of the homeless. I don’t see these folks volunteering and helping in any way. They just create/hold signs and yell bs. I’ve seen the zealotry of a true Trump supporter, “everyone stockpile and grab your guns” to the Woker that has a judgment for everyone and everything. When did everyone become so self-righteous?

          6. NarcAngel says:

            TS

            “The silent majority. We don’t take action probably as there is no overriding need for control like there is with the attacking narcissists.”

            I agree that might be part of the reason while also keeping in the back of my mind that they know this of their targets and subscribe to:

            Silence equals consent.

            It’s a balance.

          7. Bubbles says:

            Dearest TS n Fiddleress,
            Our kids are always saying to us ….. “mum, dad, you can’t say that anymore, it’s considered offensive now”! Within our walls at home it’s fine, but outside, it’s a no go zone
            For Petes sake !!!!! What’s this world coming to?
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Fiddleress x

            Yes, I feel the same. Piers Morgan is correct. He should be able to say Harry’s Wife is lying, because she is! He didn’t call her a liar because of her skin colour, he called it as he saw it and he saw her as a liar. Very dangerous when you can’t say what you think on an issue for fear of being labelled as one of the ‘ist’ categories, sexist, racist etc.

            The woke movement or as NA says the hijacked version is one of the most dangerous things to happen to our society over recent years I think. It shown no signs of slowing either.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA

            Exactly. With the narcissist believing that silence equals consent, the very last thing we should be doing is not questioning what’s going on. When a society is afraid to question, challenge or debate an issue, there is absolutely nothing to prevent that society from being walked all over. It’s the isolation manipulation on a mass scale.

          10. Violetta says:

            Woke is the terminal, full-blown expression of PC. It might have remained under control had it been treated in a timely manner by a proper mugging in the subway, but now it is beyond hope.

            Piers is a wind-bag, but he should never have been pushed to apologize or risk his job for saying he doesn’t believe MM. Whether disingenuous or deluded, she has said many things that turned out not to be true.

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:

            SParham,

            Laughing at Unhip. My kids are safeguarding my hip quotient for me just now.

            Yeah, it’s the hypocrisy of it too. Offended by everything in one breath yet quite happy to bully and attack people with the other. I think that’s the giveaway and the way people spot that many wokies don’t have genuinely good intentions. Hypocrisy is reasonably clear to see. People see it, they just aren’t sure why it’s happening.

          12. A Victor says:

            Or what to do about it, if anything.

        3. Fiddleress says:

          Hello SParham and welcome,

          Your comment below :”I’m kinda developing a fuck it attitude and let stuff out.” This made me chuckle. I’m about the same age as you and I thought yes, I think this is the one good thing about reaching this age, haha! Works best when you don’t have a narcissist around though, for me at any rate.

          I also read that you are at the moment in a relationship with a narcissist. I wish you all the best on your journey to achieve as little contact as necessary (the ideal thing being no contact all, as HG explains).

          1. SParham says:

            It took 30 years to realize the narc situation that I’m in. Even when I was told by trusted sources I didn’t believe it. No one could explain what narcissism was in a way that I could understand. There was never a distinguishing separation of types. My son came the closest to stating the truth but still, there was that reluctance in me. Now I’m painted into a corner of my own design. The thought of being homeless is scary. I’ve heard many homeless women running from narc stories. It is interesting that most of them will take a tent over the abuses they endured. 😳 Solely paying off my property nags my pride. I don’t want him to have it too. It’s akin to being in a spider web I suppose?

        4. JB says:

          SParham,

          I agree with you that HG’s humour makes his work all the more appealing. Often makes me smile! Nice to meet you, by the way!

          1. SParham says:

            It’s nice to meet you too! I enjoy everyone here and feel welcomed. Many thanks to you and everyone else. 🤗

      5. Bubbles says:

        Dearest Truthseeker,
        The Brits are exceptional and extremely clever at wit …. like no other !!!
        I think they invented it !
        No one can compete in my book (I’ve never really understood American humour, it’s very in-house) although we do like Big Bang haha
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Bubbles,

          Haha yep, I think we are talented at sarcasm and have the most expansive repertoire of put downs. So proud, so proud! 😂

          Have to say though, I like Ron White too. American, very dry. My favourite sketch of his is ‘Deer Hunting’. ‘Coupins’ is good too. You might like him if you haven’t seen him already 🙂

          Ron is likely one of HG’s brethren. I wouldn’t want to get a backstage pass. He strikes me as someone who turns it on just as the lights come up. Xx

          1. TheVimtoSlut says:

            TS

            On the repertoire of ‘extensive put downs’ based on Hgs recommendation of ‘The Hitch’. Christopher Hitchens, I have something to say.

            Once I worked out that he was not the DM colomunist, Peter (The Tool and Gamminista per excellence) and it was definitely NOT Hg, I watched a YT of The Hitch in full flow and in fine fettle against a very smug, pompous MMRN A (clergy) on a talk show.

            You can actually see Hitch winding up for a devesating blow against man AND the RC church.

            It was so joyous because he also referred to his cock. Triple whammy. What a guy. I almost came when he spat it out.

            So when he prayed for his ‘erection’, I DO hope the Goddess heard. And delivered.

            British humour at it’s finest. Black, satirical, tongue in cheek but deeply funny!

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Vimto,

            Your comment made me chortle in itself! You have a way with words.

            I confess to living under a rock as far as Christopher Hitchens is concerned. I have just YouTubed him though and he is clearly frighteningly smart and knows exactly when and how to strike a blow with his humour. Also when to remove his humour. Interesting. Uncomfortable with eye contact in the few clips I saw. Are we to assume narcissist? He definitely has the feel of one I think.

            Narc or no narc, funny, dry, bright. I’ll watch a few more.

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            Haha, I took a quick gander at the deer hunter sketch and understand his appeal…he is quite funny. I must admit I had never heard of him! Thank you for the suggestion.
            I was brought up with Dave Allen, The Two Ronnies, Benny Hill, Victor Borge, Marty Feldman, Dudley Moore, Charlie Drake, Spike Milligan John Cleese, Terry Thomas n Peter Sellars, just to name a handful ! We only used to watch the Eurovision Song Contest because of Sir Terry Wogan’s commentary … it’s never been the same since ! Now it would probably be considered offensive, just like Enid Blyton (poor Noddy) and now the new Marilyn Monroe statue
            Right now I’m into a young Aussie comedian ….. Jimmy Rees … he’s currently been sending up our Covid situation since it began between our states and of course our Pfffffiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiizerrrr n AyyZeeee vaccinations! I crack up every time I see it !
            He currently ‘tickles my fancy ‘ 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Bubbles,

            Some of those names take me back a bit! My dad liked Peter Sellers so I remember the Pink Panther in particular. There’s as a scene where Sellers is on a stakeout and there’s a bird above him in the tree he’s hiding behind. It keeps chirping and he keeps trying to scare it off. In the end he pulls his gun and shoots it. That’s my humour right there haha!

            I just watched Jimmy Rees ‘The guy who decides COVID restrictions. That was funny. They should do one of those over here. It would be the longest comedy sketch in tv history!

            Xx

          5. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truthseeker6157,
            One of my favourite Peter Sellers scenes is from the Pink Panther Strikes Again movie …. Does your derrrrrrrrg (dog ) bite? 😂
            I like that bird scene as well hahahahaha
            It’s a wonder that hasn’t been banned …….yet !!!!!
            Jimmy Rees has subtly alluded to MAYBE doing ‘Meanwhile in the UK……that would be sensational !!! Sooooo much material to send up! (could creep into the US with the whinger n ginger saga) 🤣
            Now back to my ‘Bobo’ daarrrrrrrrlllling and French champers ( whilst we can still get it ) 🤣
            He also does one on who decides the packaging 😂Sooooooo funny !!!
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Ah, Bubbles……laughing…… The Pink Panther series……ah, the “accent” being subtitled, has me laughing……”reum”…..I think we are referring to the same film here……. hoovering the bird…… thank you for reminding me, had a really good laugh.

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Bubbles,

            Haha yep, I do quite like stupid humour too. Sellers was a master. I’ll have to rewatch that movie again, years since I’ve seen it. I quite fancy myself as Kato ( probably spelt that wrong), I have taken up boxing at the gym, I’m told I have a hell of a right arm haha! Good. Never know when I might need it!

            On a different note have to say The Handmaid’s Tale is my guilty pleasure just now. I watch it and think, “Conceivably, that is what could happen if narcissists banded together with a shared vision.” Fortunately their individual thirst for control would prevent it and the whole shebang would likely implode. They could probably manage an expansive cult with similar results though.
            Interesting modern take on an excellent book. Take a look if you haven’t seen it Bubbles, I think you’d like it. The main character just won’t lay down, I like that. Xx

          8. HG Tudor says:

            I am on series three episode seven so no spoilers in your posts re Handmaid´s Tale or there will be serious repercussions.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            HG, what’s your view on the series so far on The Handmaid’s Tale?

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Just started Season 4 – I will let you know when I am finished.

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Ok, HG. I look forward to seeing your views on it. ‘The Crossing’ one gave me a shock. You will know when you watch that one. I find that when I am watching the programme, I am ‘immersed’ into it. Thank you for your response, HG 🙂

          12. Asp Emp says:

            TS, I agree with you on that RE: The Handmaid’s Tale – yeah, I really enjoyed those myself. If we communicate about the series in Japanese then HG won’t know any “spoilers” 😉

          13. HG Tudor says:

            You ought not to assume that.

          14. Asp Emp says:

            ええとああ.

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:

            “Or there will be series repercussions.”

            Promise?

            Kidding. Lips sealed.

          16. Violetta says:

            Homer Simpson, in front of a long line of people waiting for the next showing of The Empire Strikes Back in 1980:

            “Who would have known that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker’s father?”

          17. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, interesting that you wrote that. Apparently, the words from Darth Vader “I am your father” was the most infamous ‘phrase’ in Star Wars.

            I bought one of the magazines the other day, I decided to, just because ‘Star Wars’ has a special place in my memories. The mention of it brings so many about my own father. It is no longer with a ‘sadness’, just a fondness. Titan Comics have produced these ‘magazines’ – it’s really good quality and for sure, the will be ‘coveted’ by Star Wars fans. Ah, I’ll enjoy reading it. I had no idea what a ‘wampa’ was until recently…. LOL.

          18. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            I’ve added The Handmaids Tale to my ‘must watch list’
            I mentioned on another thread I’ve just completed viewing ‘The Undoing’ (no spoilers from me) haha
            Thank you kindly for the heads up 😊
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Bubbles,

            You will love it! Obsessively! I’ll check out the Undoing 🙂 xx

        2. Violetta says:

          There’s Brit wit and then there’s Brit wit. The surrealism and parody history (requiring knowing actual history both for creation and for full appreciation) of MPFC, but also the gleeful, music hall lack of subtlety of Benny Hill.

          Oddly, I like them both.

  8. SParham says:

    I’ve not heard of the shows Teigen appears in before. I didn’t know where she came from when she and Markle hooked up. It’s interesting that Teigen was a suitcase model on the same show as Markle. It sounds like the pair have lots of common interests. Maybe the will be MORE narc on narc demonstrations when their buddy-ship goes into the toilet.

    1. Violetta says:

      As indeed it will. MM Markled her old friend Jessica Mulroney fast enough when she thought Jess might tarnish her “brand.”

      I wonder if some mid-range Narcissists are just permanently stuck in middle school. These flashy BFF/frenemy/public feud/friends again (if they haven’t knifed each other in the woods) tenuous alliances seem to be a feature of much middle school socializing, but most people grow out of them. I avoid anyone who reminds me of my too-kewl-for-me older frenemy, and welcome friendships that are dumb-but-fun stuff we do together rather than status.

      1. SParham says:

        Knifed in the woods! 🤣🤣🤣

        I can’t deal with the pretentious bs either. I tried the Stepford eat lunch and go shopping route with narc friends. “I don’t like her as much as I like you” and digging for dirt. The judging of others, omg, I sucked at it. I prefer my concert and art festival days. My narc husband hated when I went to shows. He’d cuss me for going but never would go himself. Narcs are trippy people. I guess empaths are trippy to them.

        1. Violetta says:

          SParham:

          And here we are. Per a Radaronline headline, “Meghan Markle ‘Cancels’ Chrissy Teigen Over Bullying Claims, Despite Model Playing Mediator Between Duchess & Kim Kardashian.”

          I’m just waiting for the Dynasty-style smackdown.

        2. Duchessbea says:

          Thank your lucky stars you are an Empath.

  9. mollyb5 says:

    HG ..that was funny. All those dumb shows she’s been on . Who watches that stuff . John Legend is a singer and song writer , he’s the talented one .

    1. TheVimtoSlut says:

      He’s got some talent. Some. Stevie Wonder he ain’t although I suspect he desperately wishes he is.

      Signature song ‘All of me’ is a weird one. It’s pretty good mostly and contains a lovely melody in a minor key on the verse but the chorus when he flips it to the major is absolutely trite.

      Check it.

      ‘All of me, loves all of you’

      No you don’t, you cock. No one can ever do that. Its trite, childish and mawkish. You might say that when you are seven but its not a great look on a fully grown man.

      I DO note that a MMRN A Som that I know was obsessed with that song. And embarrassingly so. Maybe its a Markle magnet??

      1. mollyb5 says:

        @thevimtoslut …Well he’s been around a little longer than that song . Before his wife he did had some hits and other videos with , “ I’ll be the best you ever had “ and “PDA , we just don’t care “.

        He has a pretty voice and writes and plays the piano …and is kinda jazzy. He does have skills and talent . He has a unique voice also. He has a cute baby face too . He’s been around ..I think at least 14yrs with his music.

        1. TheVimtoSlut says:

          And yet I struggle to recall any other song.

          Isn’t the clue on the name, ‘Legend’?

          Boring middle of the road, whiny little pedant with fuck all charisma. Or taste in women.

          The US version of Phil Collins

          1. Violetta says:

            There are rumors he’s on the DL and that’s the real hold Teegan-Taygan has over him.

            Rumors not withstanding, he was one of the most effective Jesuses (Jesi?) I’ve ever seen in Superstar, not least because his
            bland surface makes you wonder what is behind the Messianic persona: Fraud? Delusions? The real thing? The ambiguity is only slightly settled by “Gethsemane”: okay, we’ve eliminated fraud, because he clearly believes this, but we still don’t know if he’s the Messiah or nuts (although both Mary and Judas say, “He’s just a man”).

            Ted Neeley in the ’70s movie is awful. It’s obvious from his first scene he’s nuts.

          2. Kiki says:

            No Phil Colins early music was amazing nothing like boring Legend

  10. Anm says:

    I will admit, because I haven’t dealt with that many female narcissist in my real life, and because female Narcisisst are more covert, I don’t have the best judgement for figuring out if a woman is a Narcisisst, but I have ALWAYS known she was one. Which leads me to the golden question, in your opinion HG, is Teigen-Teigen a pedophile? She made numerous references of pedophilia on social media, Jeffrey Epstein’s documents said that she was one of the celebrities that would visit his pedophile island. How dark does this narcissist go?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have not seen all the references to pedophilia on social media ( I understand they existed) therefore it is difficult for me to comment.I did see one comment which was made which referenced the Toddlers and Tiaras and I can see it was meant as a joke, not a very good one, but that “joke” was used as evidence of some kind of unsavoury interest in children. Accordingly, I would need to see the evidence before providing an observation, ANM. Ditto with regard to the Epstein document because I have indirectly seen material which casts doubt on attendance and therefore I would again need to see the actual evidence establishing that she did indeed visit.

      1. Violetta says:

        One tweet read, “seeing little girls do the splits half naked is just…..i want to put myself in jail. #toddlers and tiaras.”

        One supporter wrote, “This tweet is an indictment of the sexualization of little girls, not a condoning of it. Teigen is making the point, via satire, that Toddlers and Tiaras over-sexualized little girls.”

        I don’t know if she’s a pedophile, but I suspect her effort to sound edgy and cynical shows at least a lack of boundaries.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That was the tweet and commentary which I had read.

          1. Kiki says:

            Is peadophila not extremely rare amongst women though .

        2. TheVimtoSlut says:

          Vi

          That’s a well dark area and I didn’t know she had people saying ‘Lolita Express’ about her.

          If true, that shows what a sick little puppy she is.

          And how does Leg-End figure in all of this?

        3. SParham says:

          I saw this particular tweet on another creators channel too. I’m not easy to offend but this one is both offensive and disturbing. Throw in telling teenager’ to die and hurt themselves, omg, what a waste of oxygen! I was a competitive gymnast and remember adults acting vile while they were in attendance; even in the 80-90s. When I was young, 10 and under, I was occasionally put on the spot to perform for the drunk friends of my parents at parties they were hosting. I deep role my eyes at the thought of pedos enjoying the show. There are so many islands on this planet, why can’t we just drop an altered pedo off on one filled with his/her kind? Children are off limits! I can’t watch or listen when they are victims of hurts and crimes.

          It trips me out that John Legend is okay with his wife’ behaviors? I’m waiting to hear of a separation now.

      2. MP says:

        Well, one person that was never in the Epstein log book was Keanu Reeves. A real empath just like what HG said. No skeletons in his closet whatsoever. Just a genuinely nice man.

        1. MP says:

          I looked up the Epstein flight log book and apparently Chrissy T. was not in the real documents. Her name was included in the conspiracy theory list but the authentic documents that were unsealed didn’t have her name in it. Also Oprah and Ellen Degeneres were in the fake list but not in the real list. Kevin Spacey is in the real list and Bill Clinton for more than 25 times. Scientist Stephen Hawking was in the real list too but that was before Epstein became a sex offender and it was for a science summit Epstein organized in his island where he invited scientists and he arranged for a submarine to be modified to be accessible for Stephen Hawking because he has never been underwater before which was a dream for Hawking. But it sounds like the whole event with the scientists were decent.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Epstein has been a sex offender since majority.

          2. MP says:

            I’m sorry, I used the wrong words. The article said the scientists visited the island for the conference before Epstein was first charged of sex crimes against minors. The article said there was no way to know if Hawking or the other physicists were aware of the crimes happening in the island during their visit.

          3. Violetta says:

            He taught at a private school in Manhattan as a young man, with deficient credentials, btw–somebody got him the job–and there are reports that he hit on his students.

    2. Empath007 says:

      I’m the opposite…
      I find the females far easier to spot.

      1. Fiddleress says:

        Empath007
        “I find the females far easier to spot.”. Yes, same here.

        1. Empath007 says:

          Truthfully I believe it’s because I am not distracted by the thought of sexual intimacy happening between us… I want to sleep with the man, ergo… I want to believe his lies… the woman I can see through in an instant, because there is nothing distracting me.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            Empath007, for me, I think the fact I can spot female narcissists more easily is simply down to me being a female. And maybe it ‘helps’ in that regard that my mother was a narc? Or maybe it’s the fact that I haven’t worked out how the male mind works yet, so I can’t ‘read’ them very easily.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Fiddleress, female narcissists – in my view, can ‘sense’ a female empath and either they ‘love you’ or ‘hate you’ – so I suppose they will try the first “option” first (LOL).

          3. Fiddleress says:

            Mind you, Empath007, I most certainly had a narc father, but that didn’t ‘help’ in spotting male narcs. My ‘mother’ was blatantly obvious, unlike her husband.

      2. MP says:

        I can spot both males and females. But sometimes I have mistaken some narcissists for being empaths.

      3. Anm says:

        Empath007, Interesting! Why do you think that is?

    3. Alexissmith2016 says:

      Really good question ANM.

      HG, as there are an equal number of male and female Ns, would you say there are an equal number of female paedophiles? Or is the media/prosecution info we see.a reasonably accurate reflection in terms of ratios?

      ThAnks so much

      1. HG Tudor says:

        No.

        1. A female is more likely to be in a position of “failure to protect” or “facilitation” or “blind eye” rather than direct abuse.
        2. Not all paedophiles will be narcissists, there will be some normals who engage in viewing images online but would not engage in direct abuse. This will include a lot of male normals. They are of course still paedophiles.

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Oh wow! Thanks No. 1 makes sense. So seriously disappointed to be reading about No.2 I really did not think normals and a lot of them would engage in viewing. That’s so sad to read. But maybe for the normals rehabilitation may work then at least.

  11. Violetta says:

    Ask and ye shall receive!

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