The Dirty Empath : Relationship Breaker



The Empath. Regarded as a paragon of virtue with those traits of honesty, decency, compassion, love devotee, moral compass and so on. All of which make the empath and their fuel output tempting prey for us. Yet within these virtuous empathic traits sit other traits, narcissistic traits.

There are four schools of empath (Standard, Super, Co-Dependent and Contagion) . Layered on to these schools are the empathic cadres (such as Magnet, Carrier and Geyser).

Each empath within the relevant school has both empathic and narcissistic traits. Some will have a small number of strong empathic traits with few narcissistic traits which are low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are moderate in strength and have few or numerous narcissistic traits which are all very low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are strong and numerous narcissistic traits which are moderate or even quite strong. The key consideration is that, in effect, the empathic traits keep the narcissistic ones ‘in check’ and thus the empathic individuals behaves in a way which is empathic with other people.

There are however two main instances when the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The first is through The Empathic Supernova which is when the empathic traits become ‘dialled down’ or eroded for a temporary time and thus the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The second instance is a permanent state of affairs and this is the streak of the Dirty Empath. The individual is empathic, of that there is no doubt, they have those empathic traits, they also have narcissistic traits too, however one of those narcissistic traits remains strong and prominent throughout and sits alongside the fewer, weaker narcissistic traits and the various empathic traits of varying strength. This does not mean this person is a narcissist, not at all. It does not mean that this person is not an empath. What it means is that they are an empath but there is one (sometimes there might be more) narcissistic trait which ‘dirties’ their empathic status. Think of the empath coloured white with a black streak running through them. The DE is the class of empath and there are various Dirty Empath streaks.

One of the dirty streaks which runs through the Dirty Empath is that of Marriage Breaker (or Intimate Relationship Breaker). This streak is based on the narcissistic trait of selfishness.

This situation arises where the DE becomes involved with somebody who is already in another relationship. The DE is single. The other person is not. There are those empaths who would never have a relationship with someone who is already committed to another. The level of refusal varies from those who might engage with someone who is dating other people but would not if they are in a steady relationship and not at all with someone who is living with another person and is/or married, through to those who refuse to countenance any romantic interaction with someone who is engaging with other people, at any level.

The Dirty Empath will not actively seek out a romantic relationship with someone who is already married. If the DE knows somebody is in a relationship, they will not pursue that person as that offends the empathic traits of the empath. The narcissistic trait of selfishness is not so strong as to override the empathic traits and cause the DE to want to pursue and engage in a relationship with someone who is already taken, committed to somebody else and so forth. Such an act is the preserve of someone who is a normal (even then it remains unlikely) and is more likely the response of someone who is narcissistic (not an empath and not empathic) or a narcissist.

Accordingly, a Dirty Empath will not target, pursue and engage with a person who is already in a romantic relationship.

That point made, what are the circumstances which give rise to the Dirty Empath Marriage Breaker? There are three.

The common thread where the Dirty Empath Marriage Breaker (“DEMB”) arises is where the DEMB is targeted by the other person. The person will be highly narcissistic or more usually, this person will be one of our kind.

Addressing the three circumstances :-

The Ivory Response

The DEMB is seduced by the Other Person (“OP”). They do not do the seducing. The OP does not tell the DEMB that they are in a relationship and if the OP is (and most likely will be) a narcissist, the DEMB will be the Candidate IPSS or Shelf IPSS. The DEMB may well be strung along in this fashion, oblivious to the fact that the OP is in a relationship, for some time. They may have suspicions but as ever, the OP will use plausible deniability to assuage those concerns. In the usual style of the seduction of the golden period, the DEMB will be taken in and engage romantically with the OP.

You may be thinking that since the DEMB does not know the OP is in a relationship, was not the pursuer and has been seduced, is it not somewhat harsh to describe them as a DEMB? Possibly, but the fact remains that they are romantically entangled with another person who is in a relationship and thus that comes within the umbrella of DEMB.

However, there comes a point where the DEMB finds out that the OP is already in a relationship. This may happen whilst the seduction is ongoing, it may (more likely) occur when there is devaluation or during a period of being placed on the shelf. The DEMB having learned of this will not immediately walk away from the OP. They will, in accordance with their status as a truth seeker want to gain answers from the OP. The relationship will continue. The DEMB will also make it his or her mission to tell the spouse or partner of the OP what has been happening, thus they earn the epitaph of Marriage (Relationship) Breaker or at the very least, disruptor.

The DEMB will fail to get adequate answers from the OP. The DEMB will not however just retreat, upset and distraught at having ‘been played’ and lied to. This is where the DEMB’s selfish trait flares up. Their moral indignation at their situation must be attended to. They will not withdraw and allow the OP and his or her partner to mend matters and patch things up. No, the DEMB will :-

  1. Ensure the OP’s partner knows what has happened in detail and will encourage them to walk away from the OP;
  2. Ensure other people know about the OP’s behaviour;
  3. Ensure the OP is told precisely what a low-life, cheating bastard he or she is.

Once 1,2 and 3 have been achieved, the DEMB then walks away from the carnage caused and endeavours to remain out of the hoovering clutches of the OP, the OP now desperate to find a new IPPS since in all likelihood the actions of the DEMB have caused the narcissist OP to lose his existing IPPS and be looking at a fuel crisis.

Accordingly, the DEMB is not whiter than white because (unwittingly) they engaged in a relationship with an attached OP. They cause carnage through their response to learning of the cheating behaviour of the OP towards themselves and the OP’s IPPS (and possibly other IPSSs). They are not completely blackened however as their response has sought to achieve some good, albeit for selfish reasons. The DEMB walks away from the OP (and tries to stay away) and accordingly the response arrived is off-white, hence ivory.

The Point of No Return

Similar to the above, the DEMB does not know that the OP Narcissist is attached to someone else. The DEMB is pursued, seduced and falls for the OP. At some juncture, the DEMB later learns that the OP is with somebody else. This could be during seduction, when being placed on the shelf or through devaluation.

The response is not one of ivory however.

Instead, the DEMB has reached The Point of No Return. Such is their addiction to the OP Narcissist, such is their desire to keep that person as their own and ‘beat’ the OP’s partner, the DEMB’s narcissistic trait of selfishness rises to the fore, overriding the empathic traits and causing the DEMB to fight for the OP.

He or she will do whatever they can to maximise their chances of being retained by the OP over the OP’s Partner. The combination of the seductive addiction and their own selfish narcissistic trait means that they will :-

  1. Tell the OP’s Partner about their existence;
  2. Focus on winning back/retaining the OP’s interest;
  3. Possibly even smearing the OP’s Partner themselves in order to achieve their aims.

The DEMB’s usual empathic traits are outshone by this single, strong narcissistic trait of selfishness to the extent that they appear to have taken leave of their senses. They want the OP, they see that they should be the one who ‘wins’ the triangulation and they will keep on trying to secure this outcome again and again, even when placed on the shelf or devalued. Of course the OP may well find their relationship with their IPPS in tatters but will not be unduly concerned as the Narcissist OP will feed on the twin stream of fuel and either remain with the original IPPS and dis-engage from the DEMB IPSS or choose the DEMB IPSS instead and continue with the shelf arrangement with them or make them the new IPPS.

The DEMB in these circumstances has reached the Point of No Return, they want the OP and notwithstanding the carnage caused, the roller coaster ride which awaits them, they earn the title of DEMB justifiably.

The White Knight

In this scenario, the OP tells the DEMB that he or she is with someone else. Nevertheless, the narcissist OP will adopt the tactics of

“We are effectively separated.”

“We are only together for the children and lead separate lives otherwise”

“I am being abused.”

“It is a loveless marriage”

“I have tried to make it work but he/she just isn’t interested any more and I have not left because x, y or z”

“My wife doesn’t understand me.”

The DEMB adopts the role of White Knight riding to the rescue to save this poor OP from their misery, their banal existence or the clutches of the tyrant spouse. It is the familiar story of faked misery and abuse manufactured by the narcissist OP, the cultivation of the DEMB in the role of rescuer, the OP as ‘victim’ and the OP’s Partner as the ‘perpetrator’. The DEMB operates through a hybrid of empathic traits (doing the decent thing in rescuing the poor downtrodden narcissist OP, exhibiting compassion for this person etc) and also the narcissistic trait of selfishness because they want to be with this person, they want to ‘save’ them even though they are attached to someone else. Yes, they have been duped by the OP’s manipulative act and illusory behaviours, but nevertheless, the DEMB knows this person is attached and because they do not walk away, but instead engage in the relationship with the narcissist OP, they earn them mantle of DEMB.

Thereafter, this White Knight DEMB may be the Candidate IPSS and becomes crowned as IPPS, only then to suffer the devaluation and then learn the truth about the nature of the OP and what he or she did to the innocent OP’s partner. They may become the Shelf IPSS and find out the truth when they are on the shelf or possibly (though rarely) have been dis-engaged from. Once the White Knight realises they are not the rescuer, their response changes and they may respond with an Ivory Response or continue to fight for the OP, as per the Point of No Return. The fact remains, they knew this person was with someone else but they engaged with the OP and went along with the seduction despite this state of affairs. Yes, they may well have done so for noble empathic reasons but they also did so for a narcissistic selfish trait also.

Thus the Dirty Empath Marriage Breaker arises in three different ways, all of which either dent, damage or destroy an existing relationship between the narcissist (or narcissistic) OP and their existing partner.

41 thoughts on “The Dirty Empath : Relationship Breaker

  1. Sandra L Martin says:

    OMG, this describes my daughter in law’s situation. She is alienated from her father by the machinations of her Narcissistic mother. She went on to marry someone by breaking up HIS marriage and he had 2 children. We were told this by the ex’s 2nd husband who had a ringside seat. He said it always bothered him how she broke up the marriage. I do believe she is an empath, how else would she be taken in by her narc mother

  2. Chihuahuamum says:

    Hi HG…totally unrelated to this, but i hope you do an article exposing narcissism in the Scientology cult thx

    1. Mel says:

      And also The Mormons. Please and thank you.

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Particularly the flds sect!

    2. Asp Emp says:

      C, I recall reading that Tom Cruise was a member of that ‘sect’. I also observed him when I watched Graham Norton’s show, now that I know, it was interesting to notice more – he was still ‘acting’!

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi Asp Emp…yes Tom Cruise is at the very top of the heirachy of scientology. He is good friends with the head honcho whose wife has been mysteriously missing or shall i say imprisoned.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          C, “head honcho” made me laugh. They don’t do ‘sacrifices’ by any chance (RE: missing person)?

          1. Chihuahuamum says:

            Lol anythings possible it is a cult. Actress Leah Remini has been trying to find out what happened to Shelley Miscavige the wife of the Head Honcho David Miscavige. It’s crazy what they do in this so cslled religion aka cult.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            C, after I sent my comment in response, I thought, was it an ‘exorcism’ gone wrong? If I recall correctly, Cruise’s ex wife was also involved but didn’t like it…’s not even a religion as such, with the name being ‘Scientology’ – it’s not even in the name of science either?

          3. Chihuahuamum says:

            It’s in the name of science fiction

  3. Joa says:

    I never cheated in a relationship. I would never start a relationship knowing someone was in a relationship.


    If we assume that the IPPS is the Queen Mother, there is something to it.

  4. Joa says:

    Yes definitely.

    I always tell him that I think about everyone. About our daughter, about him and about myself. I always try to make win-win decisions without forgetting myself.

  5. Joa says:

    Wait a minute … I remembered one small event in my life that I hardly remembered about, so little was important to me… But it could definitely become a tragedy for someone else …. Fortunately, everything remained a mystery.

    The pleasure of this immoral event… My persistent attempts to justify myself, including making myself love this someone (for about 3 weeks :P).

    And then I made a direct triangulation of both men, one of whom was aware and the other felt, but did not know what was going on, and both were crazy with jealousy. It was even more nicer. And that sex after that, diabolical, heh 🙂

    Aaaaaa, I forgot about this event from my crazy youth. And this is how I was, Saint…

    And selfishness. It is impossible to hide, EVERY person in my family is marked with it.

    I’m here! 🙂

    It happened once. But the taste of pleasure remained 🙂

    I managed not to make anyone unhappy with stupid play. This is the most important (the Saint came back :)).

    So “my” narcissist is right 🙂 I have always secured myself, right?
    But my selfishness compared to his selfishness is like a mouse over an elephant 🙂

    Thank you.
    I didn’t think about myself when I read it for the first time, I recognized so much my friend in this text. Her selfishness is like a cat … and maybe even a panther: P

  6. Dave says:

    HG. 1) Have you personally ever been with a DEMB? Or are these scenarios just what you have witnessed in your work?

    2) As The Ultra, are you able to detect a DE and if so can you predict which of the first 2 outcomes are more likely?

    3) If you personally were involved with a DEMB would the ‘white knight’ scenario occur because it gives you control of the future, or would it be below you to let her rescue you?
    I suspect you would push her to the point of no return because it seems like it would be the most beneficial to you in terms of the prime aims. Is that right?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Yes.
      2. Yes.
      3. It is below me to be rescued. The saviour cadre victims is not sought out to save me, but if it exists (and I do not usually seek it) it would be used in a Lieutenant capacity to allow me to use them to save others for the greater glorification of my empire.

      1. Dave says:

        In your response to 3 are you saying that you could direct a DEMB WK toward a Nacissist that you know, to bread up that Narc’s relationship?
        Just out of curiosity in what ways would that glorify your empire / be of benefit to you?

        Unless I understand that wrong do you have a quick example?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It would be an assertion of control and it would amuse me.

          1. A Victor says:

            TS, this is what I mean, HG is amused by doing malign things sometimes, I think it helps quell his need for change, gives stimulation for his ever active mind. I have seen this somewhere else before and I remembered it when we were discussing reasons he does certain things on a different thread. And this is something that I don’t believe he cares to change so therefore, it would likely always be a reason for doing malign activities. I don’t see how it could be avoided toward the IPPS if she’s in devaluation or possibly even if she’s painted black but not in devaluation yet. He does it for fun. Like I would dance on a bar naked for fun, similar.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi AV,

            I looked at this post your comment about HG taking pleasure in acts of cruelty. I’m still in process of researching so can’t give an uneducated opinion on it yet! So far, I understand there are three types of psychopath referred to commonly. Primary psychopath, secondary psychopath, dark triad psychopath, and in addition a new classification of dark tetrad psychopath. Tetrad is essentially a mix of triad and secondary.

            It is the Machiavellian aspect that allows for forward planning with greater impulse control in the pursuit of an objective. This is characteristic of Dark Triad psychopaths. It’s debatable if HG is Dark Triad or Tetrad. I need to look at both in more detail. I think he is Triad at this point. He isn’t secondary as he lacks empathy or at least access to his empathy. He isn’t primary as he is too conscientious and appears to have a high degree of impulse control. If it was solely an access issue that might nudge him towards Tetrad.

            There’s a really great research study I’m working my way through that looks at successful psychopaths. Successful psychopaths evolve and have evolved to better fit their environment. Enhanced executive functioning, enhanced grandiosity, enhanced social poise, elevated manipulative traits, elevated conscientiousness, are among the traits they carry. Tick in all those boxes. They carry lower levels of impulsivity, wrecklessness etc. Therefore they can remain in and rise through various organisations undetected. Arguably these are the politicians and captains of industry. They sound very similar to the Greaters which is another reason I’m looking at it.

            Newer research is leaning towards psychopath traits and trait combinations. Interesting that fearlessness is regarded as an adaptive trait. Successful narcissists score highly in fearlessness also referred to as boldness.

            Theoretically a successful psychopath who it appears would also belong to the Dark Triad / Tetrad variety, could adapt / evolve and would do so in order to better reach their goals and objectives.

            I wonder if Fury is classified as an impulse. It seems impulsive. If Fury can be controlled as HG said on another thread tonight, then you could estimate nearly all impulses can be successfully controlled, including the cruelty aspect. There needs to be an objective though. A self serving motivator.

            I haven’t yet fully considered how this cruelty element comes into play with the IPPS. I assume it’s solely during devaluation. In that sense the IPPS would need to remain in the golden period constantly or at least out of devaluation constantly. I accept that our understanding of narcissism as a whole confirms this to be impossible. Im not so sure as regards HG, I think it would take a strong and very beneficial motive for that to happen on HG’s part and a very specific IPPS.

            Thus far SM has remained in the embedded golden period stage. Whatever is going on is working and of benefit to HG currently, so a threshold has already been successfully crossed.

            I have a lot more still to look at but so far I haven’t seen any show stoppers as far as a ‘More pro social’ approach goes. That said, who am I to comment? I have no psychology degree and no training.

            I read. There’s a lot of reading still to do.


          3. A Victor says:

            TS, yes, I would guess Triad also but will need to check into Tetrad.

            I have understood that psychopaths have the capacity for fear but don’t process it as non-psychopaths do.

            I think a motivator to give up their amusement would have to be pretty substantial, I’d question that there would be anything that meaningful for even HG. But I agree that if one could be found, he could probably do it. And SM may be the IPPS it could work with, especially given the longevity of the GP, as you said. The showstopper I see is what we’re taught, that HG tells us they cannot change. Until HG says differently, I will continue to go with this, not because I don’t want “success” for him but because to him “success” looks different than it does to me and also because he says they can’t/won’t change. All that to say, yes, more reading and it is a fascinating study. Fwiw, my curiosity is a bit personal, my ex was diagnosed.with ASPD before I meet him. I do not believe in any way that he could ever change but I am still it.

          4. A Victor says:

            Oops, forgot one part, I don’t think the delight in cruelty fire the IPPS in devaluation is any different than anyone else. And I don’t think it’s possible to never enter devaluation. Unless it serves his purposes to keep her and he knows that devaluing behavior will not be tolerated. Serving the purposes at a certain point could be any number of things but I suspect it would be a significant residual benefit, bigger than say, sex, or money.

        2. Mel says:


          Intresting points of note. Thank you. I just want to add the following quote on the nature of triad vs tetrad.

          “The Dark Tetrad is composed of four parts: narcissism, Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and sadism. Sadism is the addition to the Dark Triad..”

          I can see the thrust of your argument. I argue that only two of these chatecteristics are interchangeable. Narcissism and psychopathy must be present. But the other two are interchangeable. One or the other or both. Three or four.

          You also bring up the IPPS. Well, funnily enough, I am one of the rare few postersAs that did have a very long standing relationship with a psychopath. Its very probably not what people think it actually is. To be with someone like that.

          What the ex lacked was Machiavellianism. As to Hg, it hinges on sadism I think because he has the other three. I’m just not sure true sadism is present.

          The ex was sadistic. However he was also very calm under pressure, little to nothing of his in the mutal house we owned. Thats a very key flag. Furniture had to be functional as opposed to beautiful. Hated ornaments. Trinkets. Art. Books. Pushed himself physically very hard and stayed fit. Ate like a horse. Liked knives. But he wasn’t “dark’

          In all the years we were together, I very rarely saw him ‘lose it’. He was that well controlled.

          I tend to think of psychopathy/sociopathy as ‘NPD on steroids’. Its very rare that people will encounter these individuals.

          Very unfortunately for me, NPD presented in not only my own parents but both of his two parents also.

          Mine UMRN – C and a LMRN – S. His LMRN- S and and Lesser Middle. Possible Victim. Mother issues. Never met him. Weird. But compartmentalisation.

          His sister. Empath. CD. His brother MMR #A- S. My brother MMRN -E.

          Its also possible sociopathy presented in both my father and his mother. It would not surprise me one iota that a sociopathic mother could literally ‘create’ (unaware) a psychopath son.

          Food for thought, huh?

          1. A Victor says:

            Mel, I got chills reading your comment. Have you run all these people through the NDC? Your experience is so similar to mine. Thank you for the added explanation regarding the Tetrad, I had not had an opportunity to investigate that much yet. As with you, mine had virtually no fury visible, either hot or cold. I don’t know if the Machiavellian and Sadism are interchangeable, I would see it as more of sadism being in addition to maybe? But for sure the psychopathy and narcissism are static. Mine very rarely showed, as in allowed me to see, bits of sadism, both from his past and with me. Because I saw glimpses of it, I have come to wonder how he was with those he cheated with. He had the Madonna/whore thing with me. I would put him in the dark triad though more than the tetrad as the sadism didn’t appear so strongly. I think HG, given your quoted definition, things in DC etc, could easily be tetrad. Interesting comment, thank you!

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Mel,

            Thank you so much for your comment. Yes, it really is food for thought. I googled Dark Tetrad and yes sadism does form the fourth part. It kind of proves my point, in the lecture I listened to online, it refers to Tetrad as being narcissism psychopathy Machiavellianism plus a fourth dimension of emotional disregulation characteristic of the sociopath / borderline. The mixing of terminology is problematic and seems to happen a lot. It might not matter for professionals in the field, but it does for me!

            So interesting that you had a long relationship with a psychopath. I am sure you’re right, it won’t be how many imagine. That’s down to Hare’s psychopath being so amenable to horror films I think. It’s the association that many of us have with the word but in reality Hare’s psychopaths will mostly be tucked away in prison.

            Do you mind me asking how long the relationship lasted and which of you ended it? No need to answer if it’s too personal a question. Did he have a stable career and maintain long term friendships?

            Yes as far as Sadism goes, it’s not something I know enough about in honesty, I understand the gist but not how it would manifest in various types of psychopath. I would say low or, limited in HG’s case but that could just as easily be wishful thinking as logic based.

            I think a sociopath mother could very easily create a psychopath son who is also a narcissist. You have a genetic component for psychopathy that may or may not be passed down and you have LOCE. So far in what I have covered it does appear similar to narcissism in terms of formation. In some ways I can see why the disorders are grouped into ASPD because there will be various traits shared by the disorders and in that case strength and prevalence would be needed to separate them. It is a minefield and I’m starting to see why.

            It’s very interesting that your ex only ‘lost it’ once or twice. Control of their own fury and triggers must be huge. Impulse control comes up as a key differentiator.

            In your opinion was your ex more psychopath than narcissist? It would be really interesting to know your gut feel on that.

            The family history is interesting on both sides. His sister emerging as an empath together with yourself. HG’s sister, also an empath. I wonder if the female has a greater tendency towards becoming an empath when LOCE and genetics are similar? Tendency, not determinative. I’m wandering again, it’s one of those subjects where it’s really easy to wander off down another avenue.

            Oooh I have so many questions! Thank you again for your comment.

  7. BC30 says:

    @whomitmayconcern (you know who you are) I love and miss you. Just fucking done with talking about narcissists for a bit. 😘

    #DEforever #justkidding

  8. Asp Emp says:

    As I read through this article and reached before the section ‘The Point of No Return’, I thought of Harry’s ‘thing’ (LOL), indirectly, or rather, directly she has broken so many ‘relationships’ within and outside the Royal Family, as well as some others around the world. What a Bloody Little Tart (BLT).

    Ok, I know this article is about DEMB, and to be fair, Harry is an empath. So there is some relevance.

    It was ‘The White Knight’ narcissist relationship I had (as I commented in ‘The Dirty Empath – Infidelity’).

    1. Dave says:

      Lol BLT – where I’m from is a Bacon Lettuce and Tomato sandwich.

      Listening to HG speak and reading comments here is causing me to have a deep fascination with the culture in the UK!
      Where I’m from we have no culture lol it’s culture is a lack of culture lol

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Dave, that is why I used BLT (I thought of the actual words based around the letters, laughing). The green of the lettuce having an indirect link to the colour of Doria’s house.

        Great to know that you are getting a deep fascination for us British people (LOL). Yeah, we are a ‘kind’ and that is why we are British. Well, you know where the UK is, if you fancied a change 😉

      2. Joa says:

        Ha ha, and I vice versa. I completely cannot understand the interest of the royal family, celebrities, etc. present here.

        Sometimes I look at the text and comments, but I don’t understand much. Not to mention that most of the names are alien to me 😀
        I googled some names twice, then gave it up. I don’t know what you are talking about 😀 Not my world at all. Maybe because I don’t watch TV.

        “My” narcissist, a 40-year-old guy, recently watched … “Little House on the Prairie” ha ha ha. This made me laugh.
        Damn, I missed you.
        Awfully warm sting 🙂
        Grrr, manipulation.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Joa, that takes me back – Little House On The Prairie, LOL. I used to watch it. I now know why. Because, they appeared the “happy” family that I did not have. Interesting that being here on KTN site, you ‘see’ and understand a lot about yourself that makes ‘sense’ now.

      3. A Victor says:

        May I ask where you are from Dave? I am from Minnesota in the US. I have been to England, it is very very different but also quite similar, in some ways. It was a lovely place to visit, the history and the tea are amazing!

        1. Dave says:

          Manitoba Canada. I was in Minneapolis once. You have machines in your airport that sell scratch lotto tickets!

          1. A Victor says:

            Haha, yes, we do! I don’t buy them but I’m happy for those who enjoy them. If you like them, you might like the Vegas airport, scratch off’s on steroids! It was almost like walking into a casino.

            But, getting off the plane in HI, way better, for me anyway! You can feel “the tropics” settle over you like a warm, sweetly fragranced blanket, not overly heavy, just heavenly. That was my favorite airport experience. Landing in LA for the first time, years before, I thought I’d entered a new world, a tropical world, with palm trees! But it had nothing on the HI disembarking! I miss traveling.

  9. A Victor says:

    I just watched The Triple Threat of Emotional Thinking on YT. It is super! It clearly explains why ongoing interaction with the narcissist is detrimental. Really important information that is so easy to forget once the ET gets even a bit elevated.

    This article makes me wonder yet again how many of the women that my husband cheated with were this type of empath. I believe some of them were also narcissists and maybe a couple of normals. It is the empaths I feel bad for of course, because of our addiction.

  10. SParham says:

    These sound like nightmares! What if the empath doesn’t care about the OP’s marital status once caught from pursuance? Hell, what of the empath is married but silent too? I guess it goes in to the category of being a shelved DE with an erosion of infidelity? Their selfishness isn’t affected?

    I agree that an empath will honor relationship status. There’s no way I’d pursue a married man. I wouldn’t go after a single man either. My marriage contract doesn’t allow it nor do I see men (in my case) in a sexual way. Even very handsome men. Some men seem to see me in that way though. My lesser is jealous of me going to the gym and calls me a MILF. I had to look it up to learn what that meant. 😳 All through life I’ve had sexual harassment at work. I absolutely did nothing to make that appear to be okay. I was so creeped out. When I asked my Normal friend why she said I was a siren. Again, I had to look up wtf that meant. 😳 I don’t see it nor necessarily agree. I’m starting to think it’s mainly due to being a narc magnet empath. Wanna find the narcs? I’m your grown girl. 🤭

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi SParham, when I first came to narcsite I was startled by and a bit angry at the empaths who had been “the other woman”. It does happen. But as I’ve learned more and grown in understanding, I have come to realize that the narcissist’s delude those poor women as much as they deluded me, as the IPPS. So, after time to process things, months, I was able to forgive not only the ones here but the ones my ex cheated with. Not the narc ones, or even the normals if there were any, but for sure the empathic ones, and I know who some of them were. He was good at what he did, he drew them in, he lied about our marriage I am certain or if not, simply didn’t discuss it, and he victimized them also. I actually feel sad for them now as I am sure they don’t know what happened to them, just as I didn’t.

      And to add to my hypocrisy, I am a dirty empath. I never crossed lines if he had a SO, never even in my mind would think of it. But I did have an affair with a single man after leaving my first husband, for 6 months. My ex knew, he just had other women also then. I should’ve divorced him first, it was headed that way anyway but I didn’t. Our empathy can be so eroded that these things happen. Mine was eroded over a lifetime of narc abuse and I just quit trying. Then I had a daughter and turned my life around, thank God. Who knows what would’ve happened otherwise.

    2. SParham says:

      Being a DLS and DE ain’t for me. Even what appears to be an empath will inevitably turn out to be a narcissist. My empath friend got fooled and ensnared by a middle range and things went too far once. Middle rangers suck! They were for myself kinda hard to see. “He’s wonderful” a “Sweet man” all would say. Now that I have understanding I recognize that there was a grimace and that false smile. The one MR in my mind was a terrible flirt and loooved flattery and attention. I’m a Tudor certified empath, seeking attention and praise is the last thing I’d enjoy. At least with lessers and greater’ it’s obvious what they are. There must be an instinctive recognition from dealing with many of the similar N types? Mids appear to have empathy and that’s a nasty trap. My ensnared friend saw the triangulation and false contrition. The control and residual benefits, character traits, it was all there. It was very much a give and no receive dynamic. The mid pretended to be oh so wise and religious. Up on the shelf she went to be used later. Fuck that sky high! Her eroded infidelity suddenly returned to “don’t want to be an infidel”, “this weirder than me asshole is no where near my type or worth it,” “there’s real people involved and I’m stupid af to even be here,” “I’m being used by a narcissist,” shudder. I’ll just jump off the shelf and do a GOSO absent any type of farewell in that case. There’s zero point in it. Lesson learned. 👍
      I love that you showed up just in time HG. I send you a chase you down from resisting hug. 🤗

      1. SParham says:

        It wasn’t a grimace, the MR had the smirk. I just listened to A Narcissist’s Smirk and that’s precisely it. Sneaky ass mid ranges.

      2. A Victor says:

        SParham, you got it! I was married to one of those sneaky Mid Rangers for far too long! He was the last person I identified from my life as possibly being a narcissist! But, he was so so bad!! I just wrote to Jasmin on another thread that he loved watching me interact with other people, he would sometimes join in if there was fuel to be had, but many times, he just observed, with that smirk. I think now that it was the ownership thing. Also, he occasionally hinted around about other things, with other people. I shut that down so fast whenever it came up, he must’ve figured it out without me. Anyway, now I think I’m beginning to understand more of what was going on.

        Side note, my mother observes with the smirk also, throughout my life. I had not put her and my ex together in that until today. From her, so creepy. From him, flattering, until now.

        1. SParham says:

          A Victor – My message was so rambling, I’m surprised you could decipher it. 😁 My son says that I type how I talk and I can get too finger chatty. 😁

          My IP is a lesser and my community is full of lessers. I’m accustomed to them after too many years. Rural life can create some very interesting characters.

          The folks in my career choices and past friends were ML’s. There have been some Greater’ but my instincts kept me from trusting them. I’d get that gut feeling to get away ASAP. I really trusted a ML thinking they were empathic. Turns out they were just using me for the prime aims. I’m ashamed that I wasted three years connecting with the fool. It’s not easy for me to trust someone. I wonder if that’s part of the reason why empaths feel nasty~level hurt in devaluations and discards? I spend so much time listening it’s rare for my to give opinions or share my thoughts. My pride takes a hit when my secrets and deep thoughts are thrown in my face. It keeps adding to the wall that I build around myself.

          1. A Victor says:

            Haha, SParham, ramblers unite!! I feel like I do it a lot! I try to stay focused but sometimes it’s…difficult!! Lol!!

            I wouldn’t recognize a Greater if one hit me in the face, Mid Rangers I’m just beginning to get but Lessers, oh my. My mother’s entire family is made up of them!! And she’s an old farm gal. Okay, not her entire family, but many. They are so obvious. And so fucking frustrating! You can’t tell them anything! I avoid as much as possible now that I know what’s going on, and that you actually really can’t tell them anything! Yes, they do make it difficult to trust. The MMR ex was not nearly so difficult, at first. He got there of course but it was a slow simmer, I didn’t see it coming. I don’t share with others either. No one who has been a central figure in my life has ever asked me about me and I think I learned early on, from that, that no one really wants to know about me. And, it does hurt when your personal things are thrown back at you, my mother was famous for this, I stopped sharing with her as a very young child. That wall will not be coming down. But, learning what I have here, I have been able to take others down, self-protective without cause, and have instead learned to attempt to watch for red flags. It has given me much more confidence with people in general, a nice side effect. I don’t feel like I’m at their mercy anymore if they turn out to be bad, I have choices, it is amazing. Pride is a huge thing for me also, once I’m bitten, there is no going back, except for my ex years ago. But not people generally. Thank you for sharing, it has been nice to get to know you a bit better. 🙂

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