I like it when you are lonely. That is my favourite place for you. When we first meet if you make mention of feeling lonely, or send a self-pitying tweet decrying your loneliness then I am straight on to you. You may as well have taken a knife to your chest, slit it open and shouted, “Come and get me.” Those in a state of loneliness are massively susceptible to my overtures when I decide to engulf you in my bombardment of flattery and zealous appreciation. Those who have tired of their single status and wallowing in solitary confinement seize on this interest of mine. The red flags may be fluttering but you never see them or if you do, you think “how pretty”.

I may make you feel wanted and special but all I am doing is moving you. I am transporting you from loneliness in the real world to isolated splendour in my false reality. Once I have positioned you there I shall busy myself cutting you off from family, friends and acquaintances.

You will readily go along with my fabricated denigrations of people you once held dear and who you saw regularly. You want more of the sugar that I am pouring on you. To do that you need to spend more time with me and thus less with anyone else. It is hardly a sacrifice though is it? Any dissenting voices are marginalised by cleverly constructed smear campaigns against these people (watch out – that campaign will be used against you in the not too distant future). You are an eager co-conspirator happy to discard these people (how can you be so callous?) with the repeated promise and reward of more of my intoxicating attention.

Once all those ties have been cut you are mine. You are dependent on me for everything. You have nobody to turn to and thus your focus will always be on me. As you try harder to please me, the realisation of your isolation becomes all the more apparent. You can feel the tendrils of loneliness wrapping around you once again.

I know you will feel this and I know you will do all the more to cling onto me, your life raft, your beacon of hope in the wilderness. Anything to avoid being left alone. I am afraid it is too late. Your isolation was sealed the moment you listened to me. You are so alone nobody can hear you scream.

316 thoughts on “Lonely

  1. Wendy says:

    This is absolutely therapy for me! Thank you HG and bloggers! I appreciate the free advice and I will definitely support you in buying your material and sharing you on YouTube and tictok. I am in the generation that is very well adapted to understand the tictok scene. So, it is for me a great experience to share the material. I am slightly having a minor setback thinking about the narc recently a lot so pardon me for my constant comments on your blog. It is absolutely therapy for me! Hearing everyone ones’s experience and viewpoints gives me strength not to make contact with him! It is a struggle sometimes!

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Wendy, you’re doing good. ‘Setbacks’ happen and it is usually triggered by something which can cause a blip or two on your journey of therapy on KTN – that is normal. It is good you are here 🙂

      1. Wendy says:

        Asp Emp, thank you for the encouragement! It is so much needed and appreciated. I’m grateful I found HG and my fellow empaths here. It’s very difficult to find people who really understand what it is like being involved with a narcissist. Being able to share here and learn from everyone is a blessing. Hugs 🤗

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Wendy, thank you for your response. I agree, it is difficult to find people who ‘get it’ (apart from HG and others who have had experiences of their own). Hugs back to you, Wendy. Hang in there 🙂

  2. Kitty kat says:

    Lots of drama going on in the comments about voting, I couldn’t bare to even read them to see what it’s all about. Just in case it hasn’t been realized that voting is fake too, I’m providing a link to investigate if by chance anyone is still literate out there.

    I’m not sure why anyone would trust anything in the political system, regardless of candidate or party if you can say you’ve learned anything about Narcissism. SPOILER ALERT….. NARCISSISM IS THE MAIN INGREDIENT FOR ALL GOVERNMENTS IF NOT THE ONLY INGREDIENT.

    Narcissists are the only reason we have or need a government. Think about it….. if there were no Narcissists doing shitty shit….. what would we need other Narcissists for? I’m almost positive Empaths & Neurotypicals could figure out how to cooperate & self regulate without a system dictating our lives to feel like a prison.

    1. Fiddleress says:

      Thanks for your thoughts on … what you haven’t read (you say so yourself), kitty kat. You will find (if you do read one day) that we are quite a literate bunch, thank you very much.

  3. lickemtomorrow says:

    NA, you may consider that an example of emotional thinking. Personally, I don’t, as my initial response was to TS and her commentary in terms of the article and where that led. You posted your comment separately, so that was both a deflection from the article and the conversation already taking place. In that sense, we all may be responsible for deflecting from the article itself. We were still talking about narcissists, so that is in line with our purposes in being here. That you made a choice to focus on Trump when the discussion was around Biden is where I saw the deflection. It is a personal perspective. Did it relate to emotional thinking? Probably no more so than you feeling the need to comment on Donald Trump on the same thread. It’s an emotional time all round and it can be hard to determine what is normal emotion and what strays into the territory of emotional thinking. We do need others sometimes to help us clarify if that is what is happening.

  4. NarcAngel says:


    “But my immediate sense was one of deflection when I read NA’s comment. From my perspective it was taking away from where the focus needed and deserved to be at that moment.”

    I consider that an example of emotional thinking.

    My observation became deflection because it did not align with where YOU thought the focus needed and deserved to be?

    The article is about how the narcissist likes us to be lonely and uses that against us. Any talk of politics could be considered deflection in that sense.

  5. Fiddleress says:

    AV, you asked: “who decides who can vote and on what criteria?” I know, it is frightening to imagine who would get to decide!
    It is scary however to realise how many people have never read the manifestoes of the parties that run for elections. That’s one thing. But also, even when they have read them, they may not understand the wider implications of some ‘promises’; some people will vote for a party that promises ONE thing they agree with, without even paying attention to all the other promises of that party, including some that will negatively impact their own lives AND the lives of millions – not that they care, and there’s the problem -, e.g. “no more funding the public health service”.

    Some people that I would personally strip the right to vote from at the moment in this country, are all those who are demonstrating *for the first time in their lives* (and they’re not young) because they are opposed to the vaccine passport. Those who had never demonstrated before, never lifted a finger or uttered a single word in support of the health service, whose staff have been suffering burn-outs and going on strikes, demonstrating, trying to warn everyone for the past two decades at least in the face of continued destruction of the public health service and hospitals here – and those new, Johnny or Jane-come-lately demonstrators don’t even understand that it is because of this very destruction that lockdowns, physical (‘social’) distancing, the vaccine and the passport are being imposed: not enough room and staff in hospitals (my government has continued to reduce the number of beds and staff in hospitals since the beginning of the Covid), not enough money for research for cures (or even our own vaccine). Those people couldn’t be bothered with politics and thinking about the general good and at least trying to do something about it, and now they come crying. Seriously.

    PS: In an other post, I mock the right to vote as not very useful otherwise it would never have been granted (words that Mark Twain and Emma Goldman – two people I greatly appreciate – are supposed to have said). I agree with that statement applied to the way our ‘democracies’ work (representative democracy); at a more local level, I believe in voting provided you have revocable mandates – not sure this is the right term in English: it means the voters have the possibility to strip the person elected of their power/position if they do not carry out the policy they were elected for, and which was decided on by the majority of the voters – see on YouTube the passage from Monty Python’s Holy Grail where peasants discuss their “anarcho-syndicalist commune” for more details. My own political dreams made fun of make me laugh.

    1. A Victor says:

      Fiddleress, this subject goes so much deeper than is probably appropriate to comment here so I will keep it brief. My criteria would be people who demonstrate, by doing, an ability to seek out information from a variety of reliable sources and understand what they’ve learned in order to make an educated decision regarding the policies they want to see implemented and who can best make those policies a reality. So it begins in the home and the schools, to teach people critical thinking skills. It begins by teaching people not to accept what they’re told but to seek out information on their own, investigate for themselves. Seek out the backers, where the funding for information comes from and what their value system is. Definitely read documents, the first time my oldest daughter read our Constitution shesaid, as she laid it down, “Every American should read that.”, I agreed yet today many have not. I am also a strong proponent of looking words up, I like to start with Webster’s 1828 Dictionary, especially for historical documents, and move forward into more modern versions. It is truly amazing how the meanings of some words have changed over the years. Anyway, this would be some of my criteria. I don’t want to do away with this side or that, I just want to know that they’ve thought out well why they believe as they do. Those who are too lazy to do the research, or who are incapable of comprehending the information, are the ones I would wish to strip. But, since there would not be a way to impartially prove any of this, it cannot be done.

      1. Fiddleress says:

        AV, I agree with what you wrote above, re the criteria. We do have lessons in school here to explain all the constitution etc, but many people simply do not give a fiddler’s fart about the interest of the majority (not talking of the vaccine, but of the policies carried out), and it p*sses me off.

        I got carried away in my previous post with the irritating situation in my country around the topic I mentioned.
        As you know from another post of mine, I am *slightly* irritable at the moment, haha!

        1. A Victor says:

          Haha Fiddleress, I did not take your comment as irritated at all! I was just setting out my personal view. I find it fascinating to learn about the different views of things around the world, from different perspectives. I see the various frustrations people have on both sides, it is very interesting. Thank you for sharing your views!

          1. Fiddleress says:

            AV, I am glad that what I wrote didn’t come across as irritated. I could feel my own irritation though, in relation to the topic I was writing about.
            I agree that it is very interesting to learn about different views throughout the world.

          2. Eternity says:

            Exactly, A Victor everyone is entitled to their opinion and that is why we all vote. There really isn’t a right or wrong answer only debate

          3. A Victor says:

            Eternity, yes, I agree. Each is entitled to their opinion and whatever reason they vote in whatever way they deem best is their decision. My criteria is for my own idealized imaginary world. I just wish people wanted to put time into these things. Politics affect our lives quite directly and profoundly but many people, probably normals, don’t give much thought or care to it, it sometimes seems. This frustrates me, that’s all..

          4. Eternity says:

            A Victor ,
            I am replying to this comment. I also wish people would put more effort into politics, it really does effect us in so many ways . I need to vote this month and have so many opinions that I keep to myself. I don’t have the strength to argue anymore with people. I know a lot of people who are also against the COViD 19 vaccine that keep sending me links , I am so tired of it. When I make a decision to do something I don’t look back.

      2. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

        Hi AV

        I made my comment before seeing yours

        You have expressed it much better than I did thank you 🙂

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi PAWA, you’re welcome and thank you, though I think you expressed it at least as well, and brought up different points also. I appreciated reading your comment. 🙂

    2. A Victor says:

      Fiddleress, not as brief as I had hoped. In our system we do have powers of impeachment, removal etc if elected officials overstep. Your PS made me smile. 🙂

    3. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

      Mixed feelings about this.

      If you start deciding a person cannot vote because you disagree with their views – where would it end? Why have a voting system at all? If one does not vote – than what methods would be there to protect people?

      Is it more about lack of educating oneself on what exactly we are voting for? People tend to adopt the views expressed by the media. Are independent agencies required who give people the for and against of each policy – than ask people what they agree with? How would you keep it unbiased?

      I personally do not think vaccine passports will help much with the actual problems we are facing. It will not force anti – vac people to change their minds. Do we force them to do something they are against? I have been double jabbed – as have most of my family and still got the virus. We all did at a family gathering. Vaccinated people can still get and pass on the virus as much as someone not vaccinated. It just helps prevent serious illness.

      Vaccinations wane in effectiveness relatively quickly. Whilst many countries remain unvaccinated – new strains are likely and ones which the vaccine will not protect against. Vaccines are already less effective against the delta variant. So a double jabbed person with a passport who travels is just as likely to bring back a new variant.

      My brother who has had the virus twice – once before vaccinations were a thing and more recently with us. He says he does not see the point of vaccination (it allows the body to just recognise 1 element out of 20 odd – compared with actually getting the virus). I cannot dispute his logic with what we know right now.

      My nephew cannot get vaccinated due to the risk of apocalyptic shock. Will people like him be disadvantaged?

      I am not for or against vaccine passports and remain neutral. I would also not vote – I would leave that to people who feel more strongly about the issue 😉

      1. Fiddleress says:

        Hi psychologyandworldaffairs
        I actually agree with you, and if I sounded like I agreed or disagreed with either the vaccine or the passport, then I didn’t express myself correctly 🙂
        The point I was trying to make was indeed the lack of education on politics, the lack of reflection of people. I may or may not agree with those demontrations, that doesn’t matter; what I was dismayed about was the fact that first-time (not young) demonstrators suddenly wake up to point to something that annoys them personally in their present life, but they had never paid attention in the past when some people (notably in this case, health workers) had tried to warn everyone of what was brewing and how it would impact most people. I guess I can’t bear the self-centredness and lack of the slightest reflection or interest in the search for the general good of those people, that is the one thing that to my eyes shouts “dangerous to let them vote”. But that is quite separate from the vaccine and passport issues. I will not give my opinion on that here – it’s like the ‘leave’ or ‘stay’ vote for Brexit in Britain, it is ripping families and friends apart here, and I won’t discuss it 😉

      2. Fiddleress says:

        Also PAWA, I am going through one of my misanthropic phases which focuses on the world of politics in my country at the moment, haha, so I may have got carried away slightly 😉

        1. A Victor says:

          Fiddleress, just to clarify, I understood your original comment as you described here, PAWA’s also. It’s not about the specific topic, it’s about the overarching desire and willingness to understand and care about the things that shape politics. I will not discuss my personal stance on specific issues either, here, I don’t feel this is the correct platform to do so. Thank you for this conversation, I have enjoyed it.

        2. psychologyandworldaffairs says:


          I do understand what you are saying – apologies with taking the comment as more than an example 🙂

          I have to stop myself from feeling this way – in regards to voters short-sightedness and only caring about issues which are not even for the right reasons. It worries me and saddens me that this is the case.

          I fully understand for you to feel this way. The inner conflict between all should have a voice and be able to express that right – with the harm it also causes.

          I have to stand by my principles and not allow my emotional response to surface – I do this in the full belief that the alternative is worse. Already we see governments stacking the odds in their favour – they would use this if they could – to further expand their policies. Or should I say the money people supporting them would do so.

          Are people just being manipulated anyway? How much of their views shaped by media and the wealthy to push their own agendas? People have busy lives and problems at home and many do not have the skills to fully research. Everything is also coloured by their prospective. So they read something in a newspapers – search for corresponding information – they will likely find it. Example = for and against climate change 😉

          Are people than the problem? Or the information? Half half maybe?

          I am not sure myself about all the influences at play.

          Hahaha Brexit = I also steer well clear of talking about it 😉

          1. A Victor says:

            PAWA, you are correct, it does all eventually boil down to making a decision, we can find evidence to support either/all sides of an issue. And we do base those decisions on our perspective and values, whether we are educated or not on the topic. The education serves to broaden the options, hopefully, and ultimately, best case scenario, seek out the reasons we have the value system we do, what we base it on. And also it aids in dialogue happening, a valuable thing but not possible when one or more parties don’t understand and therefore cannot back up their “side” with facts and so instead often fall into name-calling, belittling etc to ” build their case”. It doesn’t build a case, it shuts down discussion and resentments. Thank you for your reply, these were points I had considered adding but didn’t want to keep growing my previous comment.

          2. A Victor says:

            …it shuts down discussion and *builds* resentments…

          3. Fiddleress says:

            PAWA, you are right about people having enough to deal with at home and/or not necessarily having the skills to do the necessary research to understand what is at stake. This actually makes me think of one of the most important instances of social unrest here over the past few years; you may have heard of it, it was called the “yellow vests” movement. They were people who had indeed problems at home (mostly making ends meets), who probably did not take the time or have the skills to do the research, and had until then not demonstrated much, in general. And then, one day, a measure was going to be enforced by the government which for them was the last straw. So they took to the streets, and stood on roundabouts distributing leaflets and talking with passers-by to explain why they were demonstrating. It was not a structured movement, no party or trade union was with them, but after a while, their agenda and ideas became more and more structured and wide-ranging. It was fascinating to see and hear them say that for the first time in their lives, they had taken the time to simply spend time (outside of their working hours) on those roundabouts, discussing many issues together, improving their political understanding, and also, mostly, at last finding warmth and solidarity with others.
            What I remember from this is that if people are given, or take, the opportunity to come together and talk, share their stories, confront their views with others, they are perfectly capable of thinking, reflecting, and deciding what is best for them. And they hear others’ stories first-hand and that is (I think) important in taking others into consideration in the measures you would like to have enforced.
            I believe that Thatcher’s claim that “there is no such thing as society, there are only individuals”, endorsed by many other leaders, has done immense harm, and now you have people who feel very lonely indeed (even when they have a family) in the face of their own problems. With no peers to discuss our situation and decide what may be done, I think we are in deep sh*t. And that is when manipulation of the “masses” becomes all the easier.
            Still ,it makes me mad because I come from a country where understanding of and/or involvement in politics was a given for a very long time, and where it still exists, some people (many) just don’t pay attention, kept busy as they are by the “circus” (entertainment) bit of what HG quoted: “bread and circus”.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi Fiddleress, the not having skills to do research aspect is what really annoys me with regard to how families and schools are letting people down. But I think it is intentional at some level, higher up than families and schools most likely, where the “dumbing down” of people is desired in the bigger picture for the narcissists to have easier and more thorough control over the people. There are many ways in which it is accomplished, teaching to the test, not allowing free expression or giving time for it, over-whelming curriculum expectations, not allowing parents and teachers certain options etc. When I was in fourth grade, we had moved, yet again, and the new school I was in was teaching the “New Math”. I missed an entire year of actual math instruction as the teacher couldn’t even make sense out of it and thus had no idea how to teach it. New Math was dropped after a year or two of utter failure, the damage already being done to many of us, I never did completely catch up in my math, it always being a struggle after that year. That was almost 50 years ago and, while that was likely not the first, since then, many such experiments have happened here and there in the school system in America. Many. And none without impact I believe, mostly negative for the students. It infuriates me no end and especially so since my tax dollars are being used to fund those foolish experiments. Let the teachers teach the students reading, writing, arithmetic, science, history etc, also very importantly, how to study and research, and stop trying to find “better ways”. And stop trying to fill the students days with an over abundance of study, they need time to think for themselves also, time for creativity. Good teachers, will recognize all this and do these things on their own, without it being forced on them by bureaucrats far removed from the actual classroom. But, again, I go back to believing it helps those bureaucrats in their efforts to bring control to people who have not learned how to think for themselves. As parents we can take steps to ensure some of these things happen for our own children but in this fast paced world we live in, and only getting faster, it becomes increasingly difficult to do so. And I think over time, people in general lose sight of why these things are of value. Anyway, I am done with this rant now, thank you for the place to put it HG and for moderating. And thank you Fiddleress for asking the original question.

          5. Fiddleress says:

            Also pawa, no need to apologise!

  6. Fiddleress says:

    HG: “Bread and circuses, TS. If I had my way, I would strip the vote from certain people since they cannot be entrusted to exercise it in a meaningful manner.”
    I agree to a certain extent (which will probably shock a few people/empaths, but I do).
    Only to a certain extent though: the limit is that, if voting really could change things (meaningfully), it would never have been allowed.
    I know, I know, Hitler was voted into power. But then again, he could have seized it through a coup if he had not, so my “limit” stands.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey Fiddleress

      Hope you are doing well. What’s been happening? Any news to report?

      I’ve been away this last few days. Landed lucky and got warm weather for my few days on the beach. I tried paddleboarding for the first time. I’m a paddleboarding goddess! Haha! I mastered the front dismount first then the back reverse and side dismounts. Once those were mastered properly I decided to stand up and paddle round. There was a pretty strong current but I loved it. A friend of a friend paddleboards regularly about 40 mins drive from me, so I’m going to go with him and see if it’s something I’d like to do regularly before I get all the kit and kaboodle. The break was really nice. We did an inflatable assault course in a lake too. Let’s just say “taking a run at it” isn’t always the best option there!

      School starts back in a week and I’m not ready for the routine again. Another 4 weeks off would be perfect before I have to start cracking the homework whip. I’m already planning my joint birthday weekend with my daughter in November!

      As far as the vote goes, in many ways I think something similar to the citizenship test foreign nationals have to take in the US if they want to become US citizens would be a decent template but with more political questions that were updated annually. That might provide a base level indicator for voting eligibility. Just a thought.

      Having a narcissist decide who can vote and who can’t has a few minor issues as far as I can tell, even if it was HG doing the deciding! Rather him than me, I can’t even decide which restaurant to choose!


      1. Fiddleress says:

        Hello TS!
        Great to hear from you, and to know that you had a good break. I’ve never tried paddleboarding but it sounds like great fun! Glad to hear you had good weather.
        I also had a truly relaxing holiday, camping for three weeks between Bordeaux and Toulouse in a place where I could have breakfast and dinner so I did not have to cook or do any shopping! The weather was not always very good, but it was fine. I went hiking, swimming in the swimming-pool, and I mostly read all day. For the first time in years, I could feel the days going by slowly, that was sheer bliss! I hardly used my phone or computer at all, which contributed to the bliss.
        I also went to the coast near where I live in Brittany in July, and visited my fiddler friend. I am going back to see him soon, in September 🙂

        I have quite a few pieces of news, some of which I have written on the DC forum over the past few days. One is about being hoovered in June by the narc I had escaped from in January 2020. All is well again, I have thrown him into the bins of history for good.

        The news is about finally taking steps to do what I’d been thinking about doing since the beginning of this year but I had other matters to address first: I have just put my home up for sale, and I am going to move to a different area, a bit closer to the sea than I am now. Not very far from where I am living, but I have been in this area here (where I was born and grew up) for 25 years now, which is just incredible when I think about it; I stayed because I thought it was best for my kids to have a stable environment with the same friends etc, but I don’t know if that was for the best. My son was very adaptable, but my daughter was not, so it was probably best for her or so I thought.

        Now that both my children have flown the nest, I need to leave this area. I need to breathe fresh air in terms of being away from the narcissists I entangled with in this area ((the others are in a different country, so I am safe!). Although I am now in TNC or ANC depending on which narcs are concerned, I can feel a physical need to distance myself from them, if only so that I do not even have to think I might run into them when I go into the city centre, which is not so big. I will be heading to or very near a bigger city which is more dynamic than my home city and where I know a few people already. Also where I will find more of what matters to me in life in terms of political (broadly speaking) and cultural/artistic activities.
        So this is my plan! It seems that selling my home at a good price will not be a problem, so I will be living elsewhere by the beginning of Spring I should think. And I am now well equipped to avoid new narcissists going forward, thanks to everything I have learnt here, so all is well (and will be even better once the menopause had kicked in for good, haha. It’s been brewing for about 3 annoying years).

        In the meantime, going back to work (teaching) on Wednesday; I will find out then if I have been granted the right to work part-time as I asked. It would mean that living further away would not be a biggie, AND I want to continue to feel days going by slowly some of the time…

        I saw that HG was able to help you with the fear of exams, I was pleased to read about it. Good luck on the homework front starting again, I remember what that is like!


  7. NarcAngel says:

    Meanwhile…somewhere Trump is declaring:

    This would never happen if I was still the President. Well, I AM the President but you know – they stole the election. Less Afghans fell from planes when I was President. The least afghans of any other President. No Afghans fell. The pilots were better looking than Tom Cruise during my presidency. There were more pilots because I was the only President to bring unemployment down. My numbers were great. Better than any other President. I saved the Afghan people.

    1. HG Tudor says:


    2. lickemtomorrow says:

      Is this a deflection? Why does attention need to be turned back to Trump in a moment like this? I’m sure Joe Biden would appreciate it. And no doubt Trump is blowing his horn. He’d be entitled to after everything he was put through during his Presidency. Joe Biden’s got it easy in comparison. And still acts like a petulant child, to the point of being unwilling to take questions because more likely than not he can’t answer them. Or he’s too cognitively impaired to do so. It’s infuriating when people deflect in a moment such as this. Joe Biden deserves every critical comment which comes his way right now for his utter incompetence. But, let’s not let that distract from another opportunity to try and tear down his predecessor.

      Even the mainstream media has finally gotten off that bandwagon.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It is standard political practice, blame your predecessor.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          I don’t think that was the point NA was making, but I take your point.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            The point I was making is that they are both narcissists and merely mused how Trump would likely respond to the current situation given the type of narcissist he is and what I’ve learned here. I could not care less about either of them. I don’t think there’s been any actual empathy in the White House since Jimmy Carter, so I am unsurprised at most of the antics we witness. That’s all.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Point taken, NA, while at the same time I have difficulty with the timing due to the nature of the current crisis. While I could say my ET is high at the moment, I think it is natural for empaths to feel for the people affected. Trump is the last person on my mind. I agreed he was likely blowing his horn in the situation and in that sense I couldn’t care less about politicians either, shoring up their facades or doing damage control. But I do think the focus should be on the current narcissist in the Oval Office who created this debacle and who we have yet to see given the Tudor treatment. Trump has had his day. And it would be lovely to see an empath in the White House.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            “Who created this debacle”. That is an expansive comment.

            Reagan was instrumental in the creation of the Taliban. The USSR invaded Afghanistan in 1979. As part of the USA v USSR power struggle, the US, through the CIA during Reagan’s administration backed the mujahideen to fight the Soviets. The mujahideen became the Taliban following Soviet withdrawal and then the Taliban turned on the remains of the mujahideen. Law of unintended consequences applies. Nothing or little was done by George HW Bush or Bill Clinton to curtail or address the beast that had been created following Soviet withdrawal, nothing was done as the Taliban extended its grip on Afghanistan during the 1990s. Nothing was done when the Taliban took Kabul in 1996 overthrowing the then President. Nothing was done as the Taliban held 90% of Afghanistan by 1998 notwithstanding repeated instances of human rights violations as the strict interpretation of Sharia law was applied.

            George W. Bush sent troops to overthrow the Taliban for harbouring Bin Laden in 2001. Rather than resolutely resolve the issue, he was distracted by the war in Iraq and therefore maintained a lid on matters in Afghanistan without actually resolving the matter one way or the other, through withdrawal or snuffing out the Taliban. He did not address the question of getting out, but kicked the can down the road.Obama caused a surge in his first term, swelling troops numbers and he had the opportunity to stamp on the throat of the Taliban, but once he secured his second term he withdrew troops numbers but also did not address the issue of getting out, again kicking the can down the road. Trump decided it was time to get out and was committed to doing so although many questions remain about the methodology adopted for doing so. e.g. negotiating direct with the Taliban without the Afghan government. Biden is also committed to getting out of Afghanistan, the problem he has is that he is actually the incumbent as the “getting out” is happening and whilst one can find culpability for the mishandling of Afghanistan through historical administrations, he is now the most prominent. It is akin to knowing that several people over the years have been slipping a crippler on the sly to somebody’s wife, but Biden is the one found caught in the act, pants by his ankles, hands aloft in protest in the air and thus stands out far more. His handling of it has been very poor although he is not the sole offender.

            Afghanistan is a complex issue and there is far more to it than suggesting that Biden created the current debacle.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            HG, thank you for providing a summary to aid clarity into this subject. This issue is a prime example to show that Presidents / Prime Ministers usually have to ‘take the reins’ on what was left by the previous political leaders and as you say “there is far more to it than…..”. I appreciate you giving your time to explain in detail, thank you for that, HG.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            I meant the current debacle as in withdrawal. I didn’t mean the overall debacle in terms of the U.S. invasion after 9/11 or matters prior to that. At the same, I appreciate the thorough explanation of the historical context and accept my comment may have been read as ‘expansive’. Kicking the can down the road seems to have been part of the problem and while Biden is not the sole offender, the can or the buck stops with him. According to reports he had intelligence from the military indicating there could be issues if boots were not left on the ground in some capacity, and also that the Taliban was making advances in preparation for the withdrawal. He might have been handed an exit plan Trump had agreed with the Taliban, but he stated in his interview with George Stephanopolous he said he still would have tried to withdraw those troops regardless of the deal Trump made as “there is no good time to leave Afghanistan”.

            This part of your comment made me laugh:

            “It is akin to knowing that several people over the years have been slipping a crippler on the sly to somebody’s wife, but Biden is the one found caught in the act, pants by his ankles, hands aloft in protest in the air and thus stands out far more.”

            Joe is caught with his pants down. He’s the one in the spotlight. Sole offender or not, the buck stops with him. It’s an unfortunate position which makes me wonder what if Trump had still been President? What if rather than a manufactured issue, Trump was really caught with his pants down? Somehow, I think Trump’s Upper Lesser style would have suited the situation much better, and he would have at some level ensured he maintainted the upper hand. The Taliban would have understood Trump speak a whole lot better than they seem to have understood Biden speak – which appears to have been “we’re off, help yourself”.

            Maybe I’m caught up in the emotion of it all, but I don’t think logic has abandoned me.

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            HG, what a succinct account of the whole mess, thanks for providing this panoramic vision, I in particular don’t have much information about the political and military progression of the whole thing. But thanks also for including a mention to the Sharia law, which most people don’t understand is a very flexible code of conduct that can be interpreted in many different manners, even Muslin feminists use it. In recent news, Taliban have expressed publicly that women will continue to have their rights, as long as they follow Islamic laws. What many of us are afraid they mean to say is as long as they are constrained within the strict deviant application of Sharia law as interpreted by Taliban. While they have said publicly they are going to impose a less strict version than the one they did between 1996-2001 when they were in power, which was a medieval punitive interpretation, nobody believes them, understandably. Like you have said, this is not a simple issue, and after 20 years of Western influence, Taliban have also benefited from technological advances, not necessarily for good…

          7. Joa says:

            Wow, HG’s multi-layered insight is like a purebred empath. I’m surprised.

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            Indeed it is. HG has a level of cognitive empathy which I’m sure surprises us all at times.

            There are moments I’d swear he was pure empath <3

            Which is a good example of how empaths can be deceived by the narcissist 😉

          9. NarcAngel says:

            Jesus Christ. If it isn’t the content of my comments it’s the timing or something else. It doesn’t mean that I don’t feel for the affected people in this situation just because I’m not bleeding out about it in my comments. Which by the way – only stands to showcase our own emotions to each other and changes nothing for the Afghan people. It’s not about who can show the most empathy in their comment. I doubt the people in the current situation are reading this blog.

            The comment was made about Biden’s handling of it and that he reacted petulantly. I agree it is being handled poorly but I was pointing out that regardless who is in office, if they are a narcissist (and they almost all have been and likely will continue to be) that their focus will remain on themselves and not the people in the situation. I gave an example of how Biden’s immediate predecessor would likely see the situation and show petulance as well. That the focus would still be about him and not the people affected. That it wouldn’t matter if it was Biden or Trump in office. That NONE of the narcissists previous have resolved the problem for the people of Afghanistan because the people are not their focus. Unsurprising as they are NARCISSISTS.

            Hold onto your hats, because the ride is likely to get bumpier as we hope and wait for the Unicorn Empath that can succeed in the narc nest of politics to get to the summit and magically cure the world’s ills.

            I also feel huge compassion for the soldiers and their families who have sacrificed much.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            NA, your words RE: “regardless who is in office, if they are a narcissist (and they almost all have been and likely will continue to be) that their focus will remain on themselves and not the people in the situation”.


            A few years ago, a local guy was posting leaflets about his electoral campaign – I happened to be at the front door, opening it and saying out loud “more junk mail” then he stops and asks me whether I was voting. I told him ‘why bother, no-one ever really listens to the people’. He tried to ‘sell me’ to his “waffle” and I repeated what I said – waste of time.

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            NA, from my perspective the comment was badly timed. I spoke as I felt led in response to your original comment and subsequent explanation. I didn’t say you don’t feel for the affected people. I tied that comment in with the possibility of emotional thinking. I could have thought my response involved ET, but I believe it was based on the fact I was reacting with the natural emotion of any empath. That is not a reflection on you. That is me attempting to resolve any issue on my part. Which I don’t think it was, and wouldn’t describe that as “bleeding out about it in my comments” either. No one has the corner on empathy, and you’re right, it won’t change the situation of the Afghan people. I just don’t understand the continuing focus on Trump, and the need to present a caricature of his petulance, when Biden’s petulance is front and centre for the world to see. Rather than create an example, why not use the example the world has been given? And no one thinks there may be a Unicorn Empath in waiting to take his place. It’s a nice fantasy, though!

            Huge compassion for those soldiers and their families who sacrificed so much in the situation, including Afghanis hoping for a better future.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            There is a focus on Trump because :-

            1. He opted for a withdrawal from Afghanistan which Biden has followed (one of the few things they agreed on) therefore broadcasters will seek his view.
            2. He will want to offer (and broadcasters will want to ask him about) what he would do were he still President.
            3. The Donald has not retired gracefully, he keeps reminding people of his presence and of course how the election was stolen from him. He remains present.

          13. lickemtomorrow says:

            HG, I appreciate that further explanation. Here are my thoughts on it:

            1/ It would be far better to use a factual example of Trump’s response to the situation rather than a manufactured one to highlight his narcissism.
            2/ Once again an opportunity to gather factual examples of his response.
            3/ Donald is still roaring around reminding people of his presence and I accept his retirement has not been as graceful, but neither was his treatment while in the White House.

            For me the focus has shifted from Trump in the current crisis. That is all.

          14. Joa says:

            Lickemtomorrow, I will perversely ask how an empath is to be in the White House, since he is advised not to contact, to run away and withdraw, for example from social media (which can be so great for spreading information, correcting cloudy accretions, showing good), instead of learning and then to look evil in the eyes boldly and calmly?
            And even … seemingly cooperate with this evil in order to have an impact and minimize its effects.

          15. lickemtomorrow says:

            You ask a very good question, Joa. And I don’t have the answer. In the dog eat dog world that is politics I don’t know how an empath meets the challenges presented. I think they would need to have the qualities of a Super Empath with the ability to dim empathic traits as necessary and allow their narcissistic traits to shine. Personally, I would not use social media as a politician. Official statements would be given to the press, or listed on an official website accessible to news sources. If I am the politician in power then I would try to stay above the fray of social media. I don’t know why I think that, but it is my perspective. I would not need to make myself relevant. I would be relevant 😉 Looking evil in the eye would be the hardest part of all. And that is definitely something you would need to do as a politician. You are going to have to confront evil and also have the ability to deal with it. I think empath cadres as well as schools may come into this. A Saviour Empath likely will have the ability to confront evil given their strong bent towards justice. But, as you suggest, this will not always be possible. Cooperating with evil in order to minimize its effects is also necessary. Maybe this is where the Saviour Empath would also fall down. I think these are hard choices and require some black and white thinking on the part of the empath, too. Some things will need to be sacrificed for the sake of other things. Difficult decisions would need to be made. All this makes me realize why narcissists are in many ways much better suited to politics and leadership. You need to be tough, but empaths also want to be honest and all those other wonderful things empaths are which might not stand up to the manipulations of narcissists also in power. Perhaps normals have a better chance!

          16. Mercy says:

            In my opinion, there’s never a bad time to rip on Trump. He makes it too easy. Also, I think laughter helps balance emotions.

            I’ve never known NA to be hard-core political. There’s no need for deflection on her part.

          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Mercy,

            Laughter does help balance the emotions and mine are a little raw at the moment. Ripping on Trump has been a sport for quite some time. For some reason I struggle to connect, and that might be due to a number of factors.
            In this instance it’s mainly down to the sheer awfulness of what we are seeing. I appreciate you joining the conversation and I’ve never noticed NA to be hard core political either. I try not to be as well (that’s not obvious right now!). But my immediate sense was one of deflection when I read NA’s comment. From my perspective it was taking away from where the focus needed and deserved to be at that moment. And it wasn’t on Trump. It was on Biden. I understand better now that HG has interjected the ongoing presence of Trump in this scenario, but maybe it’s about time the kid gloves come off as far as Biden goes. We know he’s a narcissist. Now we’re seeing the proof of that. I think it needs to be explored a little more thoroughly. Trump is a deflection in that sense.

          18. MP says:

            HG thanks for providing a very concise historical timeline. I remember little bits of it but not in the orderly way that you wrote it. I remember learning about Russia’s invasion of Afghanistan in the Kite Runner. The bully during their childhood became a Taliban official. The half brother in that story I believe was a Martyr Empath. That movie gives a glimpse of a horrific ordeal people have to go through to escape to be able to be a refugee. I also remember that Bin Laden worked for the CIA to fight the Russians invading Afghanistan. Little did they know that they were cultivating a future monster.

          19. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I adore that novel (but haven’t watched the film).

          20. MP says:

            Hello SP, I haven’t read the book but I loved the movie. It was extremely hard to watch though and I have only seen it twice I think even though I own a copy. The actor who played the dad did an amazing job.

            SP, I am so happy tonight when I saw Angelina Jolie spoke strongly defending the Afghans. This is honestly the first time I have been excited about something she did and I am grateful and I commend her. I now fully understand why H.G. classified her the way he did because her eloquence absolutely expressed so well so many things that I have been feeling. I hope that many famous people would follow her example. I want to protest but I couldn’t find any protests that I can join. I have been looking at different ways to help and looking at different organizations.

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I guess all psychopaths have the gift of eloquence. I’m team Brad Pitt 🤣

          22. Sweetest Perfection says:

            MP, coincidentally this morning I ran into a piece of news announcing that Jolie had opened an Instagram account just to condemn the situation. So there I went! I read her letter and you are right, it’s very eloquent and it captures what most of us feel about this right now… without feelings of course because it comes from her. It is incredible how much more credible the façade as opposed to others. By the way, WomenforAfhganwlmen.org (WAW) is an excellent organization if anyone wants to have a look at all they have done and still do for Afghan women and girls. Their headquarters is in NY. Just dropping some possibilities but like I said there are many wonderful people doing many things.

          23. MP says:

            Yes SP, that’s what I was referring to. Jolie was very eloquent and described perfectly everything that I was feeling, way better than I would be able to describe them myself. And yet I know that she doesn’t feel it although she is cognitively intelligent to think all of that out.

            I am honestly confused how that works for her. I am thinking that even if she doesn’t have the emotions she still seems very sincere maybe intellectually. Intellectually she understands the situation of the Afghans so even though she doesn’t have the emotions for it she still sincerely believes that what is going on is horrible and unfair for those people. Anyway, that is my personal guess.

          24. Sweetest Perfection says:

            HG knows how that works, I don’t understand it either.

          25. NarcAngel says:

            You should have seen me channeling him here. I had the pursed lips and the wrists touching then being forced apart and everything. Doing Biden requires an assistant so I can creepily sniff their hair from behind before muttering something unintelligible into their ear. Clinton likewise – an assistant and a cigar. Best never to volunteer.

          26. Mercy says:

            NA, Just throw your trump wig on the end of a broom stick. Problem solved for Biden. You’re on your own with Clinton.

          27. Violetta says:

            If we’re offered only Narcissists as candidates, we should at least exercise our right to vote for the most competent ones, and we need to do so at the Primary level. Waiting until the General Election means a more limited selection of narcs.

            Of course, your Primary candidate may not make it to the General, but if you didn’t go on LWV, Ballotpedia, or candidates’ websites to do your research, so you could at least TRY to cast a vote for the least shitty narc, you’ve less room to complain.

            I voted for a cold, competent son-of-a-bitch in the primary one year. He didn’t get the party nom, but I feel confident that he would have done a reasonably good job as president, though no one would ever like him very much–including me.

          28. Mercy says:


            I understand how you are feeling and please don’t think I’m minimizing or deflecting from what is happening at the moment. I see and read the same things you are seeing and it’s painful to watch. I have a hard time focusing my blame on one person because I strongly believe the media is manipulating peoples emotions. This isn’t new but it became obvious during the Trump term. They are selling headlines and not telling the entire story. Where was the media for the last 20 years? Where was the citizen outcry for the last 20 years. Why did we have to wait until chaos happened before we cared? Up until now, the citizens barely knew there was a war. Why was there ZERO resistance. Do you not think the Afghanistan government and military should share the responsibility of what is happening to its own citizens? Why didn’t American citizens leave when they were told to leave in March? They were told to leave months ago and now they are part of the problem.

            If I focus on the images I see on the news and if I put the anger towards one man I am doing nobody but the news outlets any good. I’m careful about who I get my information from. I follow organizations and military on twitter that are actively working with people in the trenches to get our allies and their families at risk out. It helps to focus on action rather than the blame.

            Biden may not care about the people that are suffering but he does care about his reputation as a president. He’s not going to want this stain to be the focus of his presidency. We are not out yet and the only good thing I see from the media is that they are keeping the pressure on him. As long as we are paying attention he is going to do everything he can to right this horrible wrong. Not for the peoples sake but for his. That’s ok with me as long as it gets done.

          29. lickemtomorrow says:

            Mercy, thanks for your response. I don’t think you are minimizing or deflecting and I appreciate you further input around the situation. I think it has taken us all by surprise and we are shocked in terms of our reactions. That is where my reaction is coming from and probably quite a few others, too. It’s hard to step back and consider the situation more logically, although I’m not sure how far logic would take me in the circumstances. Getting a number of perspectives always helps with that, and you’ve added some more which I also take into account. There is blame to go round and finger pointing will always be a thing, the press will take advantage of it either way. I rarely take their word for anything, considering the inclination for bias, so the more information the better in terms of making an informed judgement. There will be arguments and counter arguments.

            You ask legitimate questions and I believe some of those have been answered regarding decisions that were made, rightly or wrongly, which meant the Afghan military lacked all the capabilities still necessary to defeat the Taliban. While resources could have been kept in place, the decision was made not to do so. My understanding is this undercut the Afghan military. Making it easier for them to ‘give in’ to the Taliban who were only gaining strength on the back of imminent withdrawal.

            If we take it back to narcissism, I think what we are contending with is black and white thinking. It appears to be an ‘all in’ or ‘all out’ mentality. Whatever deals were negotiated didn’t stand up to the test of time. But that didn’t stop the process of withdrawal. We rely on our politicians to make difficult decisions. The black and white thinking of the narcissist can prove advantageous in this sense. But, it can also prove disastrous. With an inability to apply shades of grey (i.e. the possibility of other options which didn’t include complete withdrawal) we are seeing the consequences of that. At least that’s my take on what has happened.

            I don’t have an answer as to why people didn’t leave sooner, but can only assume they didn’t expect the speed with which the Taliban took over or the complete collapse of the Afghan military. It makes me wonder why people were warned to leave months ago when the assumption would have been the Afghan military would have things in hand and would be able to deal with the threat from the Taliban. These are some of the questions I would also be asking. And commentary has been given in the press about the poor choice of the airport at Kabul for the evacuation. I think there were a lot of steps in between which could have made a difference if they were considered more carefully at the time by everyone concerned.

            So I take your point about not focusing on a sole individual, i.e. Joe Biden, in the circumstances. Unfortunately, the buck stops with him. Commander-in-Chief, he has advisers who supposedly provide him with information based on which he makes decisions. It appears some aligned with his black and white thinking while others tried to provide a different picture of what was happening on the ground and what needed to be done, i.e. shades of grey. Conflicting ideas and information are going to muddy the waters. Joe Biden stuck with the original plan. I’m not sure every leader would have done the same. But he has agreed the buck stops with him.

            In the end we take what we can get, and your last paragraph pretty much sums that up. If you don’t care about the people, at least care about your reputation in order to right this wrong and clean up this mess. Sadly, it’s gotten messier in the meantime, but the hope for the sake of the people on the ground is that everything possible is done to continue to assist them and that they don’t feel completely abandoned.

          30. A Victor says:

            LET, the reason I’ve heard that many people didn’t leave sooner is that it is known there that the Taliban will seek out.the families and do damage to/kill them. People didn’t want to leave their families to such a fate. It is the most logical explanation I’ve heard, given the months of warning.

          31. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AV, I appreciate your comment and to me it sounds like these interpreters were caught between a rock and a hard place with neither outcome (leaving or staying) being satisfactory. Their families will suffer the same fate if they have been evacuated now. Perhaps they stayed in the hope the worst case scenario didn’t eventuate. Maybe they hoped foreign forces would be kept on the ground in order to secure the regime they helped put into place. There are so many possibilities to consider around why people didn’t leave sooner, but in her original comment Mercy only mentioned Americans, which is why I questioned the need to evacuate if things were in order (i.e. there were no concerns about the Taliban). No doubt people hoped for the best, but ultimately were not prepared for the worst which seems to have happened 🙁

          32. A Victor says:

            LET, I heard that in reference to Americans though it wasn’t clear to me why so many Americans would have family there. I have wondered about some of the same things you bring up also. I have found your comments regarding this situation interesting to read, thank you for posting them.

          33. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, no problem and thanks for saying so. I enjoy contributing, though I realize we have completely wandered off the path of this thread! And it is quite emotional subject matter, especially as we now have deaths added to the chaos in Kabul. Appreciate you adding your thoughts, and thanks for your encouragement, too.

          34. Mercy says:

            I only mentioned the media because I recognize my own ET getting the best of me when I turn on the news. It’s so much opinion with tidbits of fact sprinkled in to backup their opinion. I subscribe to NYT and Washington post. I think they are a little more fact base than the others but I’m still cautious. 

            It’s been a few days and some of my questions have been answered although I don’t think we will ever know the full truth. I agree that we made it impossible for the afghan military by pulling their resources.  I read an article writen by someone higher up in the military who fought until the end. He put some things into perspective for me. He said there were three factors that caused their military to fail. Trump’s agreement with the Taliban, US pulling all of the resources that was needed to fight, and the corruption within the Afghan government.  In other words, a bunch of narcissist leaders fighting for control.

            I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. I just have a hard time blaming one person for the failer of many. It’s so complicate.  I feel for the people left behind. My heart breaks for the women and girls. I’m hopeful that it won’t be so bad for them this time.

            If you haven’t read it already,  look up the pineapple express mission. It’s a pretty good story about group of retired military sneaking in and rescuing a bunch of families. Maybe there is more of that kind of stuff happening that we don’t know about. I hope!

          35. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Mercy, I read about the “Pineapple Express” and it was heartening to hear about the people still willing to put their lives on the line in the most dire of circumstances, ultimately without permission to do so. They definitely sense a loyalty to these people as well as their own. That is very heartening. My understanding is that many in the military are outraged at the process which has occurred in terms of the withdrawal and some are willing to make that known. I also sense is they are feeling a lack of leadership from the top. For the blame to go to Trump, and his deal with the Taliban as one of the cornerstones, is perhaps overlooking the failure of the ‘nation building’ exercise which was instituted prior to Trump ever becoming President. Dealing with the Taliban directly may have been a way to ensure they knew the bottom line if they didn’t keep their side of whatever deal was made. It’s an absolute mystery to me, apart from that, the reasoning behind the thinking here. I can only assume it was to ensure the Taliban knew where they stood and any threat to America or its allies would not be tolerated. Trump made it clear throughout his Presidency that America as a nation was at its heart and soul. I don’t think he would make deals that would put the country in a weakened position. Sadly, I can’t say the same for Biden. He does not appear to be a strong leader and through this action alone has also managed to get America’s allies off side. The rest of world is raging at him. He absolutely had a choice. From my perspective, he gets to wear the consequences of that. We will never know how Trump may have responded differently in the circumstances, but it’s a given that he is wearing a narcissistic crown right now due to Biden’s incompetence. As you say, much of it is narc on narc action and we can only hope we survive the fallout. My hope, like yours, is that there is behind the scenes action that will save the people most affected from the worst of it.

          36. A Victor says:

            LET and Mercy, it is easy to find the agreement online, search “Agreement for Bringing Peace to Afghanistan”. It is a 4 page document, easy to read. I agree with your assessment of Trump’s decision to deal straight-up with the Taliban LET. I also see there is narc on narc behavior which is sickening, people are dying, it should not be being used as bragging points.

          37. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, thanks for adding that info. The document was easy to find and easy to read.

            I agree that none of this should be used for bragging points, but we all know how that goes when it comes to the narcissist. The focus should be on the people who need our support and will continue to do so. I was disappointed on that account to see Trump focus on the issue of refugees and terrorist links. While it’s a valid point to consider, to see the desperation of those people and the responsibility owed to them, I think it is not something to highlight in the current moment. Trump showed the lack of his own empathy in that instance. Imagine escaping with your life and someone placing that burden on you. These people need our sympathy and support. Maybe it’s tme to let the empaths take over <3

          38. Mercy says:


            Thank you for the info!

          39. A Victor says:

            You’re welcome Mercy, and thank you for your comments here, as with LET’s, I have appreciated reading them!

          40. Mercy says:

            Collectively,  over 100,000 people have been evacuated.  If you are giving him full blame then you must give him full credit as well. We will never see eye to eye on trump and his capabilities so I won’t argue that point. As strongly as you feel about Bidens incompetence,  I feel the same about Trumps. I respect that your opinion is different than mine. What’s interesting to me is this very black and white divide when it comes to Trump/Biden. Many many people witnessing the same events around the world with Covid, Floyd, the election, and now the withdrawal. The opinions are so different.  Not only do we disagree but we are unmoving. Not many are able to walk that middle ground where there is some semblance of peace. I’ve never seen such a strong divide in people, it’s frightening to me.
            As far as the military, I’ve seen a few speak against the withdrawal but for the most part I’m seeing support and pride toward their bothers and sisters at Kabul. I think many are hurting right now but their eye is on completing this mission. That’s just what I’m seeing from the military I’ve been following.  In my opinion,  the ones turning this into political gain need to take a step back. There is plenty of time to play politics after our troops are home. 
            One last thing, you contradict yourself when you talk of the failures before Trump was president but can’t apply that same logic to Biden. Also when talking about Trump’s “America first” stand but then blame Biden for fracturing the relationships with our allies. I wasn’t going to go there but it really is something to think about. 

          41. A Victor says:

            For lack of a better place to put this…
            100,000 evacuated with only 5 percent being Americans, and the narratives we’re hearing on why this is.

            The early images of planes loaded with Afghani people, by and large fighting age men. Seeing many more women and children would’ve made me more comfortable, they are the ones we know to be in horrible danger.

            The huge divides in America and worldwide over so many things, not the least of which is the belief that a “strong America” is a blessing or a curse, depending on where one’s thinking falls.

            The two narcissists are both but pawns I fear, the divisions only helping whoever is actually pulling the strings.

          42. HG Tudor says:

            The early images you are referring to were stock images used from a previous occasion and were not representative.

          43. A Victor says:

            Thank you, I wondered about that.

          44. MP says:

            Hello AV, regarding the evacuation, a lot of Afghan Americans feel they are being slapped on the face when they hear someone saying the evacuation was successful. So many Afghans wanted to flee but were left behind. Actually after the statistics showed that very few Americans were evacuated compared to Afghans, they started to close the gates to Afghans and only allowed Americans inside. A lot of planes who were contracted by organizations left Kabul almost empty because the Afghans that they were trying to save were not in the airport. One of the Afghan female police officer that wanted to flee but was not allowed in killed herself with a note that is so heartbreaking. And the. Yesterday there was even news that they also closed the gates for the Americans. There were many Americans that took a bus and was not allowed inside the airport because they were already winding down and preparing to leave. The gaslighting and lies that are happening and the propaganda is incredible. The government even gave a list of names of university students to the Tban and now they are fearing for their lives. So many things that our narcissist leaders need to answer. But they will not want to.

          45. A Victor says:

            Hi MP, yes, I’ve been aware of some parts of this, between work and a new grandbaby arriving this week, I have not had the time nor the bandwidth to be as in the know as I like to be. But, also, I feel that we are given such skewed information that being truly “in the know” is becoming obsolete, which negates my desire to even think about it. The lies and deceit are so rampant all around, I feel we will never know the actual truth about many, many things. And, for all of his bullish, lack of facade narc appearance, I’m starting to wonder if Trump isn’t perhaps the best liar of them all. It’s probably a toss up. Anyway, back to your comment, yes, I have seen some of this. One thing I heard somewhere in passing was that an American airline was ordered to transport Afghanis, as several were, and on the return trip with a full plane, chaos broke out. I didn’t catch any more detail than that, wish I would’ve because now I can’t find it. It was a flight attendant that gave that report to the media. Again, we’ll likely never know.

          46. MP says:

            Hello AV, thank you for that info. I have not heard of that. I don’t listen to the news anymore. I just followed a bunch of Afghan Americans and some Afghan journalists who are in the thick of the situation. They post raw videos and photos that their relatives send them. A lot of the stuff they post are not covered by the media although I can’t really be sure because I watch very little of the mainstream media news now. I know they have been covering the floods too which is another catastrophe. On day 1 an Afghan folk musician was dragged from his home by the Tbans and killed because they don’t like music or arts. I don’t know if this has been covered. Another thing is that there have been information that the US gave a list of names of people trying to evacuate to the Tban. The government said they did not do that. But there was this list of names of students and teachers at the American University there who said their names were given to the Tban but when they arrived at the airport gate they were not allowed inside and had to return home. One of the students got a message with her picture going inside her hiding place and it says “we will come after you just wait. We will rape and kill you.” So you’re right, we will not know exactly what is the truth but it seems like the pattern is that the Tban hasn’t changed and they are still behaving like terrorists terrorizing the Afghan people that were not be able to flee. The planes that left empty were posted by Afghan Americans who teamed up with charity organizations and they took pictures of those empty planes. It looks real to me. I know the organization that I chose to help was able to evacuate less than 2000 people before they went dark. I heard that there are several people that are still trespassing Afghanistan to try to rescue Americans, British, and Afghan allies and Christians that were left behind. The organization that I supported alluded that they will do something like that. He was a special agent so he implied that he has connections that he can use. One congressman went there in his own to rescue an American woman with four children and went missing yesterday but now he posted that he just went dark and is coming home. The retired military people that are there also said that they know where he is and he is safe. I think it was stupid but glad he’s not captured. He didn’t even have any military background, he was just a rancher. There seems to be a red flag of narcissism there to think he’s going to go there like a superhero. But it could also be that he’s just a narcissistic empath. I don’t know anything else about him.

          47. MP says:

            Hello AV, I want to add regarding the congressman, I saw an update and felt really bad for him when I saw the picture of himself he posted. He failed to save the mom and kids that he wanted to save because he couldn’t find a nearby country that would allow him to wire a large money to be able to afford a helicopter. The retired people doing some rescue missions also said they are having problems because the State Department told nearby countries to not give them any support or refueling. Last night Dan Crenshaw, a former SEAL said they have a plane of rescued Americans and allies that could not land to a nearby country because the State Departed wouldn’t help them get clearance. I hope that went ok. They feel like they are being sabotaged by the government. I wonder if there is a narcissistic element in that sabotage if that is true. If somehow other people doing the rescue is being perceived as a competition and an affront instead of a heroic effort.

            Regarding lies, another reason why I don’t trust the media, is because for years they perpetrated the “Russian collusion “ BS and when the transcripts of the investigation was revealed where the same people who went on TV that they have strong evidence of the collision contradicted themselves when hey were under oath where they said there really was no evidence of it, the media didn’t even cover it and didn’t even take back all of the smearing that they did. It also shocked me that highly respected government officials can go on TV and say something and then say something else in a private investigation under oath. Their ability to lie straight face is incredible. And the media is not any better. Journalists and media are actually in the top ten jobs that attract psychopaths which makes total sense. So I don’t trust them. I still read news articles sometimes though and watch the news a little bit but not regularly and only when something massive is going on.

          48. A Victor says:

            MP, if any government is hindering people from spending time and money on saving other humans, that is horrible, if it’s our own State Department, that is possibly criminal. They may have reasons of course, valid ones even, but then they should tell us? That’s what I would think anyway. I suppose countries not allowing landing in their space is more understandable but again, it seems our State Department would want be helping with that. The lack of help seems so intentional, obstructionist even, and for what? I don’t think we will ever know. I don’t know if it perceived as a competition or an affront but certainly there is a control issue involved, again, what’s the reason? Very odd.

            I’ve come to believe that House M.D. was right in his “Everybody lies.” assertion. I put a long comment in response to Fiddleress on one of the threads regarding my view of people doing their own research, I will let you read that if you desire, instead of going into it again here. But, since I believe virtually everybody lies, I believe it is up to us to verify, which I will do before I speak to most issues. Sometimes I will throw out a thought for feedback, and then do the research, but that is not as typical.

          49. MP says:

            Hello Violetta, this is my response to your comment to TS. I just can’t find a reply button next to it. I would vote for Tulsi Gabbard if she got chosen. The N thing doesn’t bother me because for her it doesn’t manifest in a way that I think would affect her leadership. If she is our president today the pull out would have been much smoother. Because her image is someone who protects the military and veterans and who wants our country strong and she would stand by that. She’s also not painful to watch on TV unlike Hillary and Kamala because her personality is more pleasant.

            As a conservative (although I’m a registered Independent), I have a problem with Republicans wanting a Trump back. I think his time is over and I don’t think Trump would win again. I hope they look at other options like Nikki Haley. But they have been so emotional about how Trump and his supporters have been treated through the years that they are wanting a some kind of retaliation by bringing him back. We have been voting with our emotions instead of our minds. A lot of people say the only reason Trump won is because of the anger from the way Obama divided the country. I would say the only reason Biden won is because if the anger towards Trump and not because he is good. The emotions are getting the better people overlooked.

          50. MP says:

            What a horrible thing to force a father to pick which child to save. The boy was only a little baby and was in higher risk of malnutrition and disease. If the girl was not yet 12 years old, I would have picked the baby boy too because I could still buy time to save the girl next. There could be many reasons other than one of them being more valuable. We should be thankful of our privilege of not having to make the same choice.

          51. MP says:

            AV, just to update with the retired military men trying to rescue people. The last post by Dan Crenshaw said the State Department finally helped them get the clearance to land so it looks like things worked out.

            If you want a positive news about Afghanistan you can read about Ahmad Massoud. He is the leader of the resistance against the Tban in Panjshir Valley. I am pretty sure that he is a very empathic person but the kind who is not innocent in the ways of war. His father was a national hero because his father fought against the Tban and warned the world that they are a big danger to the world and they are taking away human rights in Afghanistan. He was killed by a suicide bomber planned by Bin Laden just a couple of days before the 9/11. His son wants a more diverse and inclusive society for Afghanistan and wants a government modeled out of Switzerland. He studied in London and I believe his wife is in London while he stepped up to defend Afghanistan. Former Afghan soldiers are now going to Panjshir Valley to join him and even some refugees have been going there for sanctuary. If you see the videos of him in interviews and see the manner of him talking and the expressions in his eyes you can easily tell he’s an empath. Also early this year he got Covid because he had been feeding the poor in Afghanistan. He is like a beacon of hope and I am so inspired that he exists. It seems like when evil spreads out darkness there is always a good empathic person that rises to the challenge. 💪💗

          52. MP says:

            Hello AV, thank you for your reply. I agree about the obstructionism. They can get away with everything though. Several planes trying to rescue Americans and allies are still grounded by the Taliban because the State Department wouldn’t give them clearance. It includes the organization that I supported which has six planes that couldn’t leave with 1600 passengers including over 100 Americans. Tim Ballard teamed up with Glen Beck (which I think is a MR narc) and the Nazarene Fund and another charity org to combine their resources, list of names and skills to do these rescue but their planes full of people still cannot leave Afghanistan. I will leave the link to one of the articles that reports this. There are 3 other planes from other organizations that are also stuck. I personally believe that narcissism is a factor. I hope that they will eventually allowed to be rescued. The American woman with four kids is in really bad situation because the Tban beats up women for leaving the house without a male relative accompanying them and she is just a single mom and she needs to be able to get out to get stuff for her kids. More details about the congressman who tried to help her was released and I was wrong to think that he went there like a superhero because he was just trying to help retired military people to negotiate with nearby countries that would not help them.

            I apologize if any of my posts was reactionary or offensive. I have been following this too closely and it has been raising my ET a lot. Thank you for your responses.

            I have not seen your discussion with Fiddleress but it sounds interesting and I will try to find it. Thank you.

          53. Mercy says:

            AV, I actually saw one of those photos with the women edited out of the pic or maybe they were edited in, who knows. And as HG pointed out, they were throwing around some photos that showed previous events. I agree with you though, not enough of the vulnerable got out. One man boarded a plane and had to leave his wife and daughter because they hadn’t gotten their documents yet. He took his 18 month old son. I thought “you should have taken the girl”. I wonder why he didn’t. He worked with the military. Do you think his son was more vulnerable than his daughter? I don’t understand the reasoning since the son was younger.

          54. A Victor says:

            I think boys get preferential treatment, seen as more valuable, in some ways and also they are in danger of sexual abuse, as well as the girls. Maybe he did, oh my God this is making me sick, the most humane thing.

          55. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Mercy,

            Thanks for your thoughts once again. It is a challenging time which means conversations will also be challenging. I accept that. I agree the divisions are stark and there is a reason for that. What is interesting is that there are empaths standing on both sides of the divide which I also mentioned in another comment in a more general sense. This was to foster acceptance of the same. We can assume we are right, but in many instances only time will tell. In the meantime, we must hold true to what we believe.

            I’m happy to give credit to Biden if you will do the same for Trump. If not, then it’s a moot point. Regardless, lives were lost and many more could have been saved. That’s my positioning at the moment. Of course the military should be proud of their own actions in relation to all they have done to try and help maintain peace and facilitate withdrawal. I wouldn’t take anything away from them and they should not be the ones feeling the pain of this withdrawal. I hope at no point I have given that impression. From my perspective responsibility rests with the Commander-in-Chief.

            I see you suggest not using the situation to make political gain, but I can only imagine the same scenario if Trump had been President. I’ll leave that thought where it sits, but the unfortunate thing about it is political opponents will always seek to gain from crises. It would have been no different if Trump was in Biden’s shoes and that is looking at it logically. It’s the way politics works. Thoughts are not spared for the ‘little people’. At the same time, I agree the troops being home safe is the most important thing.

            As to your last paragraph,, there is failure on both of our parts for you to have also highlighted Trump’s deal as being part of the cornerstone of the current situation. We can both agree it goes further back, but Biden pulled the final pin. He rolled back every single other Trump policy and program that I am aware of at this point in time, but for some reason he maintained the position on this one. So we know he’s capable of pulling the plug on his predecessor. He’s responsible for the decision making in all of these instances, for better or for worse. The buck stops with him. If Trump had continued with his plan of withdrawal the buck would have stopped with him. He may have handled it differently. We’ll never know. And on that basis, Biden also has to take responsibility for fracturing relationships with America’s allies in this instance. Trump did not facilitate the withdrawal, Biden did. He needs to own it. And as far as I know he has.

            Unfortunately, the polar opposite opinions in this scenario are likely to continue. Unless people seek out the middle ground things will not change. Ultimately, I think that will be up to the empaths to do.

          56. Mercy says:

            “I’m happy to give credit to Biden if you will do the same for Trump”

            Haha no way no. Not on the deal he made. Trump didn’t hold them to the conditions and he eliminated our leverage by pulling our troops from 13,000 to 2,500. I think we have a better chance meeting in the middle if we put blame on both rather that credit to both. I admit Biden should have done better. Innocent people died because of his decisions. That is a simple fact that we agree on. 

            I thought hard trying to give Trump credit for something. This is painful but I’ll give him operation warp speed. That was successful but ironically he doesn’t highlight that as one of his accomplishments. 

            Thank you for the conversation.  I think this is the the only place where people can have different opinions AND an intelligent conversation about it. Lately all I see is a bunch of irrational fighting.  No hard feelings on my part. I found the discussion interesting. 

          57. lickemtomorrow says:

            “Haha no way no”

            I laughed when I first saw this comment, and take in all seriousness your perspective on Trump’s responsibility in relation to the withdrawal. I’ve seen a timeline and it raised some questions for me. I’ve also read the leverage that existed with a minimal number of troops (2,500) was sufficient to help the Afghan army maintain in the circumstances. The move away from the original plan (to get Bin Laden) to one of ‘nation building’, with all the good intentions that may have entailed, seems to be the ultimate culprit in positioning America and its allies in a ‘no win’ position. That is unfortunate for everyone involved, but mostly the Afghans. They are caught between a rock and a hard place either way. Most of all my heart goes out to them. Hopes for a better or different future have now been dashed. I just hope a hardening does not replace it.

            I’ll accept blame can be applied to both Trump and Biden, with Trump aiming for complete withdrawal and Biden facilitating that. Neither gets the wear the crown for doing it well or getting it right.

            I appreciate you taking one for Team Biden and selecting something for which Trump is owed credit 🙂 Operation Warp Speed is definitely an accomplishment of the Trump Presidency, though not all his followers would agree, which is probably the reason he may not highlight it. A rally in Alabama told the tale of how Trump’s followers feel about that. While many consider them ‘lemmings’ they had no hesitancy in letting Trump know how they felt when he reccommended the use of the vaccines. That’s a whole other topic which would take us on aonther trajectory, so I won’t go there. I’m all done with politics on this thread 😉

            I have also enjoyed the conversation, and I agree HG does allow for conversations to happen in an intelligent manner while also making allowances for differences in opinion. I really appreciate it. The irrational infighting is exhausting as people attempt to point score. It doesn’t achieve anything, except more point scoring! No hard feelings on my part either, Mercy. You’ve handled yourself graciously and made it easy to have the conversation without it descending into vitriol. Kudos to you for being able to do that.

          58. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Mercy,

            I think you made a really good point here as regards the divide between those who voted for Trump and those who voted for Biden. I have noticed the same. Often when elections are close, you will hear people express disappointment that their preferred candidate didn’t win. That disappointment and frustration usually settles down after a few months. Those same people might very well vote the same way every election but essentially they get on with things in the meantime.

            This doesn’t seem to be the case with Trump and Biden. Trump supporters absolutely detest Biden and vice versa. They are widespread extreme views and I agree there is little acceptance or middle ground to be found. It’s almost as if the election is still ongoing.

            I can only think that’s it’s due either to two very polarising Presidents back to back, or it’s less to do with the presidents themselves and more to do with real social discontent. A backlash if you like, against a series of events that are happening in quick succession. I’d have to go with social discontent because we are seeing similar anger in European countries also.

            COVID has impacted social behaviour. It has separated us and for a long time. Some people are fearful whilst others are less so. People are afraid for their jobs and their futures. COVID is dividing people. Natural disasters and what to do about them is dividing people. The rise of narcissism on the left or ‘Woke’ is dividing people. You’re right also George Floyd and the rise of the BLM movement has divided people together with the election and now the Afghanistan withdrawal. In many ways this deep discontent that is turning friend against friend might actually be due to a series of events forming a ‘perfect storm’. It won’t be helped either by narcissists becoming involved in various movements and diluting their original purpose as a means to empire build and gain power.

            Quite honestly, these are very worrying times. Social media doesn’t help. The press just fuels the fires. Gone are the days when a government only had to worry about unemployment, education and healthcare. When people are divided and frustrated with so many different issues, it really is difficult to find common ground. People are starting to view each other as the enemy within their own borders. It concerns me that whilst that chaos takes place there are other less democratic countries that are watching the chaos and saying “I spy opportunity.”


          59. Mercy says:


            You’ve stated many things that I see and fear to. I was thinking about how easy discussion is here no matter what the subject is. When you go to social media it’s nothing but anger and rage in the comments. It makes me think that maybe empaths are handling what’s going on in the world better than the average person. We have always been conscious of the tragedy around us. Others with less empathy tend to have the “if I don’t know it won’t hurt me” mentality. I think the open anger that we see in so many people is fear because they can no longer ignore the problems as they become worse. It’s like, if they give in and wear mask then they are admitting covid is deadly. Or if they support BLM then there really is corruption with their law enforcement. Like you pointed out, I have seen this spreading to the European countries as well. Its become a virus of its own. I follow Boris Johnson and Trudaeu on twitter. The comments on their post are just as hateful as the ones I see on Bidens. When did this become normal?

          60. Violetta says:


            It does seem to be a perfect storm: we bounce from right-wing candidates to left-wing, with ne’er a moderate in sight, and the economic, social, and personal damage wrought by the pandemic doesn’t help.

            As far as our candidates are concerned, is there a reason both major parties keep running buggers with one foot in the grave and no military experience? Is there a reason our higher up military in DC seem to have more experience in playing politics than in military tactics or deployment? Jaysus, even those tools Dubbya and John Kerry did their service, although there are plenty of things to criticize in both.

            Did the Dems nominate Tulsi Gabbard as their “anyone but Trump” option? Military deployments, government experience, even ticks a few diversity boxes. Hell, no: we got Grandpa Simpson.

            Meanwhile, would Republicans consider running Rep. Peter Meijer for president, a veteran who was deployed in the Middle East and quietly flew out to Afghanistan to see the situation for himself? No, most of them seem to want Trump back.

            Would the Dems consider Democratic Rep. Seth Moulton, who made the trip with him, and also served in the M.E.? Take a wild guess.

            Btw, Meijer probably didn’t join the military for lack of other options or just to pay for college. His family is associated with the Meijer chain of supermarkets.

            What about the Special Forces guys who organized their own mission to get Afghanis who’d helped us out of the country?

            Just how can someone be Commander in Chief of all Armed Forces without knowing fuck-all about what the armed forces actuallydo?

            Another consideration: military folks know how to work with people they may not like. They learn it in boot camp, or they don’t last. Our last few administrations don’t seem to have a clue about that.

            Quite the cluster-fuck.

          61. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I totally agree with you, discussions on social media are not discussions they are attacks and often personal attacks. Once that comes into play it will only every go one way.

            Even comments beneath newspaper articles are littered with direct attacks. Society seems to have lost the ability to debate or discuss anything. People prefer to draw the battle lines and apply labels or name call those on the opposing side. It’s very rare to find a safe place to discuss and offer opinion. It’s very rare to find a place where other points of view are listened to, considered and taken on board. We are extremely lucky that HG provides such a place for us because such places are rare.

            I think you are right. Fear plays a large part, people also are being forced to consider further than their usual family and friendship bubbles. This might indeed be way empaths in some respects have fared better. Our circle of empathy is already far broader. Considering the bigger picture comes more naturally to us in a humanitarian sense.

            Covid has forced a degree of compliance for the greater good and governments have enforced this compliance through the reduction of personal freedoms. This in turn forces a standpoint in itself. People are scared, they have every right to be. Fear though is a dangerous thing, people take more extreme measures when they are afraid.

            I don’t recall feeling this way before. Usually there is something positive to focus on that balances the negative. At the moment, wherever you seem to look in the world there is very little positive to be found. Everything just feels unbalanced, not quite right. This is where our broader circle of empathy drains us I think. Maybe that’s what I feel just now, drained, drained and disappointed with my fellow man.


          62. Mercy says:

            I can relate to that unbalanced feeling. I remember how I felt when the 9/11 attacks occurred.  The sudden feeling that nothing will ever be “right” again. Slowly over the course of weeks and months things started to get back to normal. This is different.  These tragedies are happening all over the world. The unbalanced feeling has been gradual but it feels like the new normal. Like it’s never going to be the way it was before.  

          63. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I know what you mean. There appear to be far more suitable presidential candidates than the ones put forward. Call me cynical but I think it’s purely based on money.

            The sheer scale of the US necessitates a huge amount of political funding both public and under the counter. You could have the most intelligent, capable, business experienced, military experienced individual in the history of man and they won’t get a look in. As far as I can tell it’s all about funding.

            You see political families cut from similar cloth. It’s just down to money and connections thus the ability to raise funds. Even the more honest politicians will sell out because they need the funding. There are so many lobbyists in the US. How did Philip Morris get away with what they did for so long? Backhanders, a team of lobbyists and financial firepower.

            We are always going to end up with a similar breed. There’s a fighting chance in the UK that someone different might rise through the ranks. Easier when your country isn’t that much bigger than the state of TN. Sheer scale damages politics in the US I think.

            It makes me laugh when we hear reports that Harry’s wife has designs on the White House. She had better be good at curtains then. She can’t afford politics. She will have turned off big business with her wokeism, no hope for sponsorship. “If you see it you can be it.” Not quite Princess Pinocchio, not quite.

        2. Joa says:

          Not only in politics, also frequent in business.

          Although … most often both are related to each other 🙂

        3. Eliza says:

          HG Im interested in what your thoughts are about who is actually pulling the strings in this Clown show White House ? It can’t be Biden he’s not cognitively there anymore. It’s so bizarre, the Elephant in the room and the media is ignoring it for the most part in the US.

          Beyond the soldiers being killed and maimed for what !? We also had little boys being raped and abused by many Afghans and our military leadership forcing the troops to tolerate these atrocities. Its a nightmare in EVERY DIRECTION ! No excuse for the troop withdrawal before evacuating the support population. NONE. There WAS a plan that could have been followed but was rejected. How can this be explained ??? The Saudi’s ? What are they thinking ? Qatar flies the Taliban around and harbors them -are they behind this? It just feels too insane and intentionally done to just be incompetence. The entire government and military brass should just resign right now.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Eliza, I know you asked HG so I hope it is okay if I respond, your question made me think, a thing I am always thankful for. My synopsis is as follows. I am happy to hear other opinions if people have them, always wanting to expand my thought processes.

            Everything is about money and power. Those with money have the power. Who is funding what, answer that and you get to the source(s), you get to who is pulling the strings. And I personally don’t think it’s Trump, Biden, Obama or any of the other recent high office US politicians, I think it goes beyond them. Who is controlling the media? Who is controlling the WHO? Who is controlling the UN? Etc. These are the ones who are in control, and it is through their money. The rest of us are nothing, we are simply peons, useful in their schemes only until we are no longer. So those atrocities you named are meaningless to them. They also know that in order to further their agendas, they need people in power who won’t actually care about the masses, so even narcissists are used by those in higher positions. It is really a game, a high powered game similar to chess, putting the right person in the right place at the right time, all the while remaining unseen by and large, or seen in a positive light only. Those in moving the pieces around, those at the very top, are very good at what they do. I don’t think we will ever know the truth fully, it would likely boggle our minds if we did.

            All of that said, I do enjoy watching the process, politics are absolutely fascinating! I do not enjoy the results of the process many times, such as we are now witnessing in Afghanistan.

            As to why these people want so much power and control, I can only assume they are narcissists bent on controlling everything, so strong is their desire for the prime aims.

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        I know what you mean here LET.

        What we are witnessing in Kabul is utter desperation. Women handing their babies and children to soldiers they haven’t even met. The only thing I can think of is that in order to be able to go through with that, the feeling has to be sheer terror and utter hopelessness. For the man responsible to brush those scenes off is despicable. Biden will brush it off though. All he cares about is damage limitation to his own career. He isn’t interested in what happens to those people, it doesn’t keep him up at night at all, he’s a narcissist and he couldn’t care less.

        NA is right, that’s pretty much what Trump is thinking right now. No doubt he rubbed his hands together when those images started to come through. Here’s a chance to kick his opponent when he’s down. Tell everyone “I told you so.”Maybe start his next presidential campaign off the back of it even. He’ll be feeling cock a hoop. Great week. Fantastic. He isn’t outraged. He couldn’t care less either, because he’s a narcissist.

        Harry’s Wife. I could have screamed when she released that statement. HG nailed it with his video title. “I spy opportunity”. Too right she did. What a complete load of hypocritical meaningless garbage that statement really was. She doesn’t identify with those people at all, she is interested only in promoting herself at every given opportunity. She’s a money grabbing, social climbing, self centred grifter, oh, and a narcissist.

        It’s vile behaviour on the part of all three. All in the name of the Prime aims and its truly nauseating to watch. They won’t be the only ones either, more will crawl out of the woodwork over coming days including Obama who will no doubt show up to steady the ship as long as he sees something to gain by it. And only after he has reopened comments to his Facebook page, posted a polished statement etc. Apparently too many people were expressing outrage at what was unfolding, so he turned his comments off. He couldn’t care less about that.

        And you are right, all of it detracts from the real point. The tragedy of what we see unfolding in Kabul. What that actually means for the rest of us, but more importantly for those stuck behind the gates and barbed wire. It’s not about what Trump would have done, though he’ll make it about him. It’s about what Biden did and why. He is answerable. He should be held to account for his decision. I agree also, he isn’t taking questions because he isn’t competent to take questions. He just about manages when all is going his way, mentally he can’t take criticism any better than Trump. Of course not. He’s Mid Range.

        It appears to me that Biden is almost behaving as if it isn’t real. As if he is playing a part in a Hollywood movie. “The buck stops with me.” Close up camera left.
        He’s so detached he’s almost detached from reality. That’s concerning. Not just for America but for anyone that relies on America’s protection.

        Politics is littered with narcissists. The problem is now we see them clearly and it makes their behaviour all the more sickening. It makes people that don’t see them all the more frustrating and it makes us all the more incensed.


        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          TS, you have blown the whole narcissistic dynamic wide open when it comes to the current political climate. Ultimately, it is a trade off between narcissists who seek to gain power over others and each other. It’s exactly as you describe it – seeing clearly, making their behaviour sickening, others who don’t see frustrating, and those of us who do incensed.

          HGs video on Harry’s wife was spot on, as usual, and I’ve already commented here in relation to her word salady ways. Like I said, I just switch off. It’s like there’s an automatic button in my head, heart or soul – not sure which – and I just can’t hear it. For that I am truly grateful. Helps me to sort the wheat from the chaff. And hers is definitely chaff!

          Interesting about Obama. And how it can all be tied to elements of narcissism. Justin Trudeau gave Hillary a call because he couldn’t get a hold of Biden or Harris. Watch this space for an update on Hillary’s next run for President. Still hoping to beat Trump maybe. Boris waited 36hrs for a call back from Biden. What an unbelievable debacle from an international perspective.

          Those poor people in Afghanistan have been abandoned, and it’s hard not to feel a sense of responsibility towards them. It could have been handled much better. Politics is about negotiation as well as power. Power is the thing you negotiate with. We no longer hold the power to negotiate in the current situation and that’s what puts people at risk. The people still in Afghanistan are at the mercy of the Taliban now. Their reputation is far from positive and time will tell if anything about them has changed, which is what they claim. I’m not hopeful.

          Accountability is not something narcissists do, as we know. I can see the buck being passed on this one endlessly as a means to blame shift and avoid accountability. I’m not sure that will save Joe Biden though. We will have to wait and see.

          1. Joa says:

            It is not only the current political climate. It happens all the time, it happened and it will happen. Such figures appear constantly in the pages of history.

            The air has been trembling with tension for dozen years. With each passing year more and more. In my country it’s also very uninteresting. It’s like sitting on a bomb.

            All-consuming aggression. People learn nothing from the experiences of past generations. And I do not mean leaders, dictators, narcissists – the best historical “immortality” and money is earn in war.
            I regret the gullibility and blindness of the crowd, despite the level of education of the masses is better than 100 years ago. There are still so many primitive, easy-to-steer units that only go in one direction when properly shot.

            Yes, already as a child I was afraid of the crowd. That spark that explodes and then destroys everything around with a blind fury that is so hard to stop.

            Tonight I had a nightmare about the war, occupation, escape. This is how recently it was, and it is heading in the same direction again…

            The United States and its Leaders – Minimal Importance. Figurants. From my country’s point of view.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Such figures do appear constantly in the pages of history and will continue to do so. We try to learn from past wars, but history keeps repeating even though education has improved. It must be something to do with the nature of man, and here we are focused on the nature of narcissists. The desire for power and control. It does earn them immortality. Which is why they fight so hard for it. People will follow because of their desire for a leader. Most are sheep in that sense. Simply because there is only room for a few at the top and narcissists are the best climbers.

            I’m sorry to hear you had a nightmare and war seems to be very recent for you. Concerning to hear it is heading in the same direction. I hope not for your sake, Joa.

            Every country will see their own issues of the most importance, I think. That is natural. We get caught up in our own worlds because they are the ones impacting us.

          3. A Victor says:

            Joa, can/would you share what country you are in? I apologize if I have missed that previously and understand if you prefer not to share. Your perspective makes complete sense to me however. It is one spoken from a person well acquainted with things we have never seen in America. My heart is sad for you today. It is good though, it can spur us on to help, as we can, as Sweetest Perfection said somewhere else.

          4. MP says:

            LET, spot on observations about Biden. I was floored when I found out world leaders have been trying to get ahold of him but he didn’t answer their calls and was letting someone else talk to them. I think it was Sullivan who confirmed he hasn’t talked to world leaders at that time. Although now he has I believe. All of Biden’s behaviors showcase his narcissism and some people have the impression that he is indeed cognitively impaired due to being senile or maybe early Alzheimer’s. I personally think it’s just being senility from old age mixed with narcissism.

            I agree about how the people in Afghanistan are caught up in all of this. Most of us will agree that Biden poorly handled this, but how are we going to help those people? Or are we just going to watch everything unfold?

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            MP, I appreciate your response and I think part of the frustration is feeling so helpless in the circumstances. Your questions are relevant and I think there will be many groups seeking to support those caught up in the crisis. They are probably scrambling now to try and find ways of doing that. I think the military are the necessary first responders in terms of getting people out and it remains to be seen what help can be given to the rest still left in Afghanistan. For those who do manage to leave I’m sure there will be options to support them we will hear about going forward. If you are feeling overwhelmed it’s probably best not to focus too much on the news services which will heighten any anxiety around the situation. Best to save that energy for what you can do as that becomes clearer.

          6. MP says:

            Hello LET, yes I was feeling overwhelmed for not being able to do anything. But thankfully I have already found ways to help make a difference. One of the organizations I contributed to promised to still continue doing rescue operations in Afghanistan in spite of the airport being closed. Tim Ballard was a Special Agent and he teamed up with other charities and he has connections with the military and they are planning stuff but he said he will stop giving updates until it’s the right time. I feel thankful that I donated to the right group because I think his military experience gives him more ability to do extra.

            And I also signed up to be a foster parent for a refugee but I agree with my husband that it is best for the kid to be in an Afghan American family that speaks the same language and is part of the same community. But I just added my name anyways just in case. I’m so thankful that my husband said yes because he has been very bothered by this too.

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            “Power is something that you negotiate with.” That’s a good way to put it. Any negotiating position has to be weaker now even than it was 2 weeks ago. I appreciate the summary HG provided as to historical context. I don’t know the full history but I will read up on it further so I can better understand.

            For me, the issue isn’t necessarily whether Biden was right or wrong to withdraw all troops. It’s the way he did it. It’s also the failure to acknowledge the chaos caused and recognise lives lost during a process that has just been dismantled in 11 days and brushed aside. That said, what was it all for then? What did soldiers die for exactly? I have two online ‘friends’ who served in the US military and one friend in SC who is ex special forces and was shot in Afghanistan. All three are seething which tells me something.

            How anyone in their right mind can think it’s a good idea to pull out of there in entirety and allow the country to become what it was 20yrs ago is beyond me. Human rights issues, potential terrorist threat issues. Those haven’t gone away. Surely it has to be better to maintain a military position than to have to go back in years from now and start from scratch when the place is a nest of terrorists? I understand that that decision was not solely down to Biden. I also understand my military acumen is zero.

            I thought when I watched clips from the abc interview. “Just pin him down and stop him avoiding the question.” Then I realised that it’s pointless because a narcissist won’t answer a question. Not in any way that makes sense. Present company excluded of course. Same principle when it comes to accountability. I might as well bark at the moon.

            I am upset by the images and stories, we all will be, I’m not unusual there. Understanding narcissism helps on the one hand but frustrates me more on the other. I’d still choose to understand though, so I’m thankful to HG for that.

            I recognise that others will vent in different ways or maybe not feel the need to vent frustration at all. My original comment was about the normals showing only limited interest and frustration about what’s going on. “Terrible isn’t it?” That’s pretty much all they got. What doesn’t affect them directly they aren’t that fussed about seemingly. Even an event such as this. In some ways that annoys me most of all.

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, you’ve nailed it again, in everything you said.

            And your focus seems to be right where it needs to be.

            Narcissism provides an explanation for much of what we are seeing, and not seeing. Responses will vary, as you suggest. As an empath, I’m distressed and wanting to share that distress. I’m also incensed at the needless suffering. We want to see people held accountable, but we know the narcissist will avoid it all costs. It remains to be seen what the outcome will be.

            The normals will have a different perspective. Frustrating as it is, they are free from a lot of the angst we feel. There’s an element of me wishing normal on my children because that’s the best way for them to beat the narcissist and also not have to take on the suffering of the empath. It’s a double edged sword when the suffering of others sometimes passes them by.

            Not sure where we go from here, but no doubt it will be empaths to the rescue <3

          9. Duchessbea says:

            The most frightening part is that this is only the beginning of what is happening in Afghanistan, and Biden has just walked away. It is quite clear that any crisis that will arise, he wants nothing to do with it and he will do nothing to try to solve it. Please remind me again what the definition of a Leader is supposed to be?
            He is in office for another 4 years and has made his point that he is not going to do anything to help the Afghan people. This man is the supposed leader of the free world. Very clear why he wanted to become President. Not for the People but for Himself. Shameful and Horrendous.

          10. lickemtomorrow says:

            The POTUS has a unique position in being seen as “leader of the free world”, often tied to America’s military might. That is why it is termed the ‘free world’, not the subjugated world. It is that power which keeps the world free. It is able to confront any threat and ensure it is held at bay or defeated. Or, at least, that is the principle. Any power can also be misused and others will have their own perspectives on that. But there is a sense of weakening in the current climate which has not existed for quite some time. It is creating a sense of uncertainty and enemies will sense the vulnerability. This is not good for America or its allies. Especially when other alliances are forming on the back of that. Some real leadership is required and sadly Joe Biden has proved he is not the man to provide it. This is a concerning gap to say the least.

          11. MP says:

            LET and TS, I have been reading your exchanges and I totally agree. It is beyond me that he pulled out that way and also his behaviors afterwards were appalling. Not a real leader. And unfortunately many people suffer and die because of it.

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Duchessbea,

            It is just the start I agree. More and more concerning snapshots coming out now about what the Taliban are really up to outside of Kabul and it certainly doesn’t look to me like they have changed at all. I think Biden will get most Americans out and that will be that. Then there will be an endless list of excuses, deflection and word salad. A lot of “We are working with our allies,” comments which will enable further blame shifting.

            I just watched Biden’s press conference. Interesting what a speech writer can do. A swift injection of false compassion and Joe’s hot to trot! I don’t believe a word he says. I see he used his son Beau again to add in a note of ‘authentic’ concern to proceedings. Someone send that man a chicken! You have to be a whole different class of snake to stoop to the level of capitalising on your own son’s death just to bolster a facade.

            He seems very trusting of what the Taliban are telling him as opposed to what the international press are seeing and reporting on the ground. Of course photo evidence means nothing to the narc if it poses a threat to control which those images and reports most certainly do.

            You can see “narcissist” scrawled all over him and it isn’t comforting. I shouldn’t be surprised, I’m not surprised, but it’s still making me seethe. Can you tell?! Haha!

            How are you doing Duchessbea? Are things any easier now your sister is living at your brother’s place? I hope so.


          13. Joa says:

            Lickemtomorrow, I meant all of us. I know this is against the teachings of HG and many psychologists, psychiatrists, but it bothers me to run away. There is a lot to learn from narcissists. We are also here in order to understand them, ourselves, get used to them, get to know them. We are learning. If ignoring helps, ignore. But I will not leave my areas to make way for narcissists. Lock yes. But I want to be able to use it in contact. Boring, pathetic, funny, I’m yawning, what else do you have to say to me? You’ll do something good, I’ll show you a smile, thank you. You lie, you cheat – I ignore it, but I don’t run away. I’m not afraid. Blow? I’m lying down, so what, I’ll get up in a moment. And I’ll be even stronger. The second time won’t work that much. Relax.

            My point is, narcissists are everywhere. And you have to learn to function with them. By escaping, we leave them room for action, even worse and even bolder.

            The recent war, I mean the past century. Fortunately, I have never been to the epicenter of hostilities (yet). But here, in probably every family, grandmother and grandfather were either in a concentration camp, or deportation to the USSR, or an insurgent, or a round-up and forced labor, etc. etc. The child was killed in this one by a raid. That one went crazy after being gang-raped. He got the bullet in head in Katyń. They nationalized it and lost it all. And it is constant return, making settlements.

            Personally, I only remember the times of communism (some say that we had socialism, but opinions differ). At that time, there was peace, if you can call it Russian indoctrination, coercion and an atmosphere of whispering in secret and fear. And poverty. Some sad events that I have witnessed. We were.

            I think we can all be afraid. Unfortunately, these events, politics, are connected vessels.

            Victor, I live in a former USSR satellite state. Terrible geographic location, stronger players always crawl over us as they eat each other 😊 We are in the EU and NATO, but… I don’t know if it’s any consolation. More than the US, preoccupied with its problems, I watch Putin. Crimea gives me a hiccup. A few days ago, they boastful sentence towards Ukraine that Afghanistan’s fate awaited it (in the context of US aid). For historical and geopolitical reasons, most people feel uneasy when they look at Russia. Russians… hot blood, passionate feelings and great hatred.
            Digression – I love Russian literature 😊

            Inside the country, we also have our little dictator and a divided society, eh.

            Better to focus on romantic narcissists. At least I can try to master it 😊

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            Joa, I am interested in your comments and think I understand. There is a need to find a way to function with the narcissists in situ at times, rather than try to escape. It is not always possible to retreat and to find a way to live and work with them may be necessary.

            These are terrible and tragic stories you can tell and my daughter’s boyfriend’s grandparents may have come from the same area going by your description. They were sent to concentration camps also and survived. Those must have been very difficult times for your people. I was working with a Polish girl when the pandemic first began and people were clearing supermarket shelves of all their items. It was a very strange atmosphere. She told me she originally came from a Communist country and it reminded her of that. She said her father would take a bottle to get milk very early every morning and leave it in a queue where he would come back a little later to get his spot and collect the milk. These are interesting and also disturbing stories. It is hard for more priviliged Westerners to imagine some of the hardships. There is a hope we never walk into them blindly. But that is what seems to happen.

            My mother is German. She never likes to talk about the war. She is ashamed. That means we lost half our heritage as she tried to distance herself from hers. It makes me sad. That she could not see any good and learned in some ways to despise herself. She is also a narcissist. Much happened to her as a child, and I believe her mother, my grandmother, was a narcissist also. My mother despised her mother! Seems to be the way with narcissists. But so many mothers, and they have a big impact.

            I see how things are concerning for you in your region. Some countries never find a proper peace, or are always under threat.

            I have the Gulag Archipeligo to read when I find the time. I know it will be heavy reading so I have to find the right time to start. I am not familiar with Russian literature at all otherwise. Now, I digress.

            Trying to master any narcissist is not recommended 🙂 Only focus on them to know what they are and how to avoid or escape them. The others we must learn to handle as in the “How to Handle” series. I have How to Handle a Parental Narcissist. It helped me tremendously.

            I enjoyed hearing about your country, Joa.

          15. A Victor says:

            Joa, thank you for your reply.

            “I think we can all be afraid. Unfortunately, these events, politics, are connected vessels.” I believe you are correct and it is frightening even as I watch things progress with morbid fascination. I don’t know that the trajectory can be stopped any more, it may have reached a tipping point. What you have witnessed first hand is not understood by so many.

            Thank you for sharing about your location, so sad to read it on one hand but also glad you are here, people need to hear what you know, what you have seen, the realities of what is coming if we don’t get this mess straightened out. And I fear it is on a world-wide scale soon, not only pockets. I would be interested to know your view of the Cold War, as instituted by Reagan, and the fall of the Berlin Wall. I so wish we could have coffee, I feel your knowledge, the things you have seen, are so interesting and relevant to today, as well as historically. I have heard that there are some factions spreading the word to our allies that we won’t protect them, I hope neither point proves to be true.

            Haha on the digression, Russian literature is pretty amazing, I agree!

            I suppose it is best to stay focused on what is in front of us individually. But I cannot help but look at the bigger picture also. It is encouraging to know that you, and others like you, just carry on regardless of things like “little dictators” and divisions. Thank you so much for your comment, I really enjoyed this second hand glimpse into the bigger picture.

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for your kind response. I don’t know either. I don’t know what I would choose for my kids. My instinct says empath but my protective side says normal. They have an empath mother and a narcissistic normal for a father. In many ways you would describe them as caring but streetwise. Even my daughter who I’m pretty sure is developing into an empath has a real edge. In the end it doesn’t matter. They’ll all be what they’ll be and we’ll love them regardless.

            In terms of what we can do and the frustration we feel about this tragic situation but also others where narcissists are involved I keep coming back to the same conclusion. I’m glad I can see clearly what is going on. I’m glad I can see the motivation behind Biden’s comments, Trump’s and even HW’s. They still aggravate me but they don’t confuse me. I see them for what they are.

            Narcissists in politics, narcissists as captains of industry and the economy. They have their strengths. As angry as I feel today I recognise that narcissists can and do serve a purpose. They’re a bit like drugs. In the right circumstances they are extremely effective, but they should also be strictly moderated!

            Maybe this is the role of the empath. To moderate the narcissist’s lack of empathy in the social, economic and political contexts. If narcissists are likely to rise to those positions, then perhaps it’s a case of accepting it in part but also ensuring that the associated lack of empathy is offset. That leads right the way back to increasing awareness and understanding of narcissism. In terms of what we can do practically at this point to affect change in the future, perhaps it is as simple as sharing accurate information about narcissism from the source we trust. We can all do that and in large numbers.

            If narcissism was better understood by the masses and more people could recognise the behaviours that we are able to recognise, would this automatically incur an element of moderation / accountability? I’m struggling for the right word, a means to better regulate the behaviours of the narcissist concerned? Take all of the drive, the intelligence, the decision making capability etc, but ensure the lack of empathy is offset through having a stronger more organised external moral compass? Public opinion being the moral compass. I suppose that’s how it’s supposed to work as it stands. So really it circles back to more people being interested in current affairs, whilst understanding narcissism.

            In many ways, the ideal would be a narcissist President with a very strong empath Vice President with more of an equal power split. People voting for the pair rather than the individual.

            I’m sure there are numerous faults with that idea as it’s one of my half formed ones! Haha. I think you know what I mean though.


          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, your half formed ideas are becoming my bread and butter here 😉 You throw them out there and I mull over them with a strange fascination <3

            I am glad we can also see the narcs for who they are, and they are not in any shortage at the top of the political tree (or any other tree for that matter). They have the potential to make our lives miserable or great, simply because they hold the power and are in control. The idea of offsetting that with empathy and empathic individuals is ideal, and with a few normals on our side we should be just about able to manage it. Much depends on how influential the narcissist is, I think. How many people they can get on side. And with every narcissist you could name there would be empaths who would stand by them. Partly because they're not seeing the narcissist, but also because of what the narcissist represents. And in that, they would not be entirely wrong. We are idealists and if the narcissist is representing the ideal then we will accept that, although we won't always agree with their antics. So, an empath is not always going to want to counter a narcissist, not if they believe the narcissist is doing good. And, for the most part, they won't be aware they are dealing with a narcissist.

            How do we decide, divide, determine where we should stand? I think your comment about taking an interest in current affairs is important. A lot of people may feel they have little ability to influence what is happening, rather than not being interested at all, and our own concerns often take up most of our time. Just putting food on the table, sorting out the kids, doing our job, etc. It's a challenge, and even bigger one for the normals who have been described as 'nose down'. I think the normals are the biggest challenge in terms of influence, since they are the majority of the population. Get them on side and the narcissist has it made either way (for good or evil). I do believe empaths have the ability to influence as much as narcissists though, even if they are less likely to hold the power at the top. This may be where our strength lies. In our ability to influence. Which also helps to provide the counterbalance needed. As you say, public opinion can be very influential, as can the press. Unfortunately, I think journalists are high on the list of narcissistic professions. Makes it even more important to determine where you get your news and information.

            I like your idea of a Presidential/Vice Presidential counterbalancing act. It seems you may have decided the narcissist is the best pick for top job 😛 Either way, we need to add in some shades of grey for better decisions to be made xox.

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for sharing a little of your background. Some countries really do have terrible histories and their people truly know what hardship is. I hope whatever change it is that you most fear doesn’t happen.

            I understand the desire to not back down as far as narcissists are concerned. You’re also right, sometimes narcissists are in work or social circles and we can’t hide ourselves away.

            For me, there is a big distinction between a romantic or familial narc as opposed to narcs in a work or social context. In the first instance I think there is no alternative other than to go No Contact. Familial situations and I think ANC or FNC are the only options. These relationships seem the most impactful and cause real issue with ET due to the heightened addiction.

            If we escape these relationships and our ET is maintained at a low level, I think perhaps we are then better equipped to deal with workplace or social narcs. My view would be to avoid direct reporting lines where narcs are involved but other than that I think perhaps it is manageable.

            I’ve worked in several large office environments where narcs must have been present. I was unaffected. My ET will have been low and I really didn’t suffer any adverse consequences at all. There were people in the office I didn’t like and automatically avoided, there were people I didn’t like but had to deal with. It’s possible they were the narcissists, difficult to say. Working in close contact with narcissists must be difficult. With awareness of their behaviour and lowered ET it’s maybe not impossible.

            In a social setting I’d struggle to point to a narc in my social group. So again, it’s likely with lower ET, I take a dislike to them and don’t really engage. I just rule out and move on.

            As it stands now, I certainly wouldn’t be pushed out of a role or a social circle by a narc. I’d likely stand my ground but largely ignore them. It’s difficult to get to someone when they aren’t engaging. I have no issue giving the cold shoulder or cutting someone dead. I don’t like doing it but I will do it if necessary.

            I think keeping your personal relationships and familial relationships narc free facilitates low ET. Low ET facilitates an ability to deal with social or workplace narcs at arms length.

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Haha, if you enjoy my half formed ideas you would love it inside my head. I do wonder about my own thoughts sometimes, thank goodness no one can see what goes on in there!

            Yes, I do have the narcissist in poll position with a strong empath in the influencing position. That’s not necessarily down to my thinking that the narcissist is better suited to the lead role, but more an acceptance of the fact that they do manage to find their way there. If that’s the case my approach tends to be to work with what I have rather than going all out to change it.

            Biden is Mid Range, Trump is a Lesser narcissist. I went back through all of my narc lists that I’d bought from the Knowledge Vault. Once I had finished kicking myself over the fact that 5 of my recent narc bullets were contained within the lists, I went through them looking for the schools of narcissist politicians. Many fall into the Greater school. That’s logical on the one hand but given the rarity of the Greater, surprising on the other. This changes things to a degree. Placing an empath within the sphere of a Greater narcissist is a tall order. If I think about HG, he’s very magnetic and to have an empath working so closely alongside that type of narcissist would be extremely difficult. He would likely draw her in to his way of thinking.

            The upside is that the Greater might well appreciate the ability of the empath to look at things from a more people focused perspective. He might actually value the resource and, thanks to a greater focus on facade, find this temperance to his behaviour somewhat beneficial. It depends on how far outside himself the narcissist can step. Narcissists dealing with narcissists will clash. There is value to be had from an empath being in the group from an information gathering and influencing perspective.

            I remember years ago the company I worked for acquired a larger German organisation. I ran the in house magazine as a project. The big boss of my division (have to say I had a soft spot for him, so likely a narc) asked me to interview the head of the company we had acquired. He and his team were viewed as a threat during the overall integration process. I was asked to gather information, as much as I could, background, personal life, education, plans in his new role etc etc. So they set me up in an office and off I went.

            The guy arrived and the two of us talked. I didn’t record, I barely took notes, it was a natural conversation. I had been scheduled 30 mins, his battleaxe PA came in twice before she was firmly told to clear his diary for the afternoon. He was with me for a little over two hours. Given his antics in the months that followed, he was likely another narcissist. He was fully engaged in the interview and I came out of it with more information than any of the senior management team in that division could have acquired themselves.

            In terms of information gathering and influence in a political arena, I think the empath could be a very valuable asset. I also think that the Greater narcissist might well recognise that. The empath might not necessarily influence the Greater himself but I think she might well influence key players in the same arena which itself could be beneficial for both agendas.

            In terms of an electorate making a politician answerable, I agree it is difficult to gain an accurate view. The media is all powerful. I also agree people are busy with their day to day and for some keeping up with current affairs is difficult. I think there’s also an element of malaise. People don’t see politics as applicable to them and their lives when in actual fact it is. I think there will be an unfortunate tipping point there though. I think climate change will be the driver. Soon people will have to take notice because they will be directly impacted by climate change itself and efforts to slow it down.

            Do I want a narcissist at the helm when those decisions urgently need to be implemented? Possibly.

          20. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, haha to me loving what goes on inside your head 😛 I’d have to get out of my own head first! Might be a nice change, though 🙂

            I see you are the practical kind, not going all out to change things. I’m an agent for change, not the most practical kind. You’re much more likely to smooth the path in that sense. I’m a little more abrasive. I think the only way a narcissist would work with an empath is if they thought they had the empath under control. Or they would need to get them under control. How influential an empath can be under the control of the narcissist is a question I will need to ponder … hmmm. I like you take on how that might work, though.

            I see you were a great asset to your company in the circumstance you describe. If we take that as an example, then it’s definitely possible for empaths to be assets, as long as from the narcissist’s perspective you remain under their control. At that stage you obviously weren’t aware of narcissists, nor that you were an empath, so it just goes to show how the two can work in tandem without any awareness at all. Maybe there is something about a natural fit which in a professional working situation might be beneficial all round. It seems to have worked for you in that circumstance 🙂

            I’ve probably said enough about politics already in this thread, and so I’ll just say I’m laughing at the fact five of your narc bullets were already on HGs lists 😛 Mine were probably on some of the lists, but I didn’t have them all so I just winged it! It’s definitely a fascinating exercise and full of surprises, too.

          21. Truthseeker6157 says:


            It’s funny, I don’t see your approach as abrasive at all. Possibly more idealistic x. The fact that so many narcissists sit at the top of so many trees I suppose I see as kind of inevitable. No change ever happened through accepting the status quo though so I admire your thinking.

            You’re right, When I was blissfully unaware and working in that environment I didn’t have any issues. My particular skill set was recognised and viewed as being advantageous which I think is probably unusual in large organisations. I find it difficult to believe that I wouldn’t have been interacting with narcissists on a daily basis and yet I thrived there. Could have been the timing, the industry or the mix of people involved. I have no idea. It does lead me to think that narcissists and empaths can exist together quite happily and productively in a work environment. That said, I know from reader comments that this isn’t always the case. Some empaths have had horrible experiences with narcissists in the work environment so how workable a narcissist empath pairing would actually be I wouldn’t like to say. It likely hinges on the school and cadre of narcissist involved.

            Haha I thought you would laugh about my narc bullets. I could have sworn they weren’t on the list!!

            I hope recent events aren’t getting you down too much. Every day brings new irritation for me as regards the Afghanistan withdrawal. Biden checking his watch I thought was incredibly indicative of his narcissism but it still shocked and angered me.

            Being angered by Biden’s handling of this whole withdrawal doesn’t mean that I support Trump. Mercy made a good point. For many people, criticising Biden does very much mean they support Trump. People are very much for one and against the other. I think you are similar to me. You criticise Biden because in this case, he deserves criticism. If it was Joe Bloggs in control, you’d criticise Joe Bloggs for the same reasons. For me it isn’t the specific President, it’s the specific poor handling of the situation that angers me. My Saviour cadre demands that the person responsible be held to account. The person responsible is the person that approved the withdrawal strategy, the person that gave the order for troops to be withdrawn in a specific manner and within a set period of time. That person is Joe Biden.


          22. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, foiled again by WordPress as I didn’t see your reply until now! I’ll file it under “better late than never” 🙂

            Thank you for your kind thoughts about me being more of an idealist x

            I have always been that way and I think it’s in the empath’s gift as well. We want what is best for others and we will find different ways to go about that. Sometimes that might be in tandem with the narcissist, though more often than not we will be unaware we are also serving their purpose. Since coming here it is possible to look at politics through a whole new lens or perspective. The challenge is out there to accept this new understanding.

            I’m happy to hear you thrived in your working environment and no doubt that was also down to your own well honed people skills. We see them here all the time. I’m sure they would be seen as advantageous, and maybe used in that way to the company’s benefit. It was one of those win-win situations which can sometimes occur with the narcissist. If you had presented a challenge to them it may have been a different story. The narcissist is quite capable of making our lives difficult if that’s the case and no doubt some of us have moved on in such circumstances. Thankfully we have HG to help us with that now 🙂

            I’m finding it more difficult to deal with the Afghan situation simply because it appears to become worse by the day in terms of news reports. Certain things are only now coming to light. Then we have the more obvious incidents, like Biden checking his watch multiple times on such a solemn occasion. I’d love to know what element of narcissism he was displaying in those moments, which of the three assertions of control he was applying. If we know he’s a narcissist, then we know this was likely an element of his narcissism on display. Maybe each of those dead soldiers presented a challenge to his control … each body questioning the decisions he made around withdrawal. In order to assert control he had to deflect from the moment at the earliest possible opportunity. He did that by looking at his watch.

            If I can look at things from that less emotional and more logical perspective, I can reduce my level of ET, which would naturally be the same as yours in terms of anger and disgust.

            When it comes to politicians of any variety I think we need to take our rose coloured glasses off. Especially now we know a majority of them are narcissists! The situation for many people seems to have become one of blind support because we are so divided, although we will naturally fall more to one side or the other for the most part. What’s been difficult has been the inability to find the middle ground which I think may be down to us unknowingly taking on the black and white thinking of the narcissist. I’m not sure if this is because society has become more narcissistic as a whole or if narcissists have just found a way to become more influential. For the empath I think there is an element of altruism involved. Something else I’ve learned since being here. I can know someone is a narc and still admire them.

            I accept the cool headed explanation of narcissism, in terms of understanding, which can be applied to both Trump and Biden. They are different schools of narcissist, so we have to expect them to behave differently. At the same time we can associate many of their behaviours to the narcissistic dynamic. Like Joe checking his watch. Politicians are not beyond criticism. Far from it. And I believe a willingness to both criticize their shortcomings and acknowledge their achievements is one way to bring people closer to the middle again. As you say, it could be Joe Bloggs and our assessment would be the same. It’s not lending support to one politician or another. It’s just calling them out on their actions, wanting them to be accountable. I think if we had more of that kind of thinking, as opposed to taking corners based on who was in power and who we voted for, we’d be a lot further ahead as a society.

            As you can see, the idealism never ends <3

            Our Savour cadre has a lot to answer for, too!


          23. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            WordPress Gremlins, mischievous little critters. I’m missing messages too so I assumed the same with you. X

            I think we do all carry the idealism element. For me I think it manifests as hope. I sink for a while, get frustrated with the way things are, but then hope comes back round again and tells me things will get better.

            I wondered the same as you with Biden checking his watch. Why? Your thought process is more in depth than mine. Those fallen soldiers might well represent a threat to control. Looking at the watch might have been withdrawal.

            I looked at it slightly differently. I saw it as symptom of a complete lack of empathy. If there is no empathy, standing there as those bodies went by him would be no different to waiting in line for a bus. There would be nothing to prevent him looking at his watch because there was no feeling there. As a Midranger, even his cognitive empathy has gaps and his facade will have glitches.

            Either way, threat to control or symptomatic of lack of empathy, we can attribute it to narcissism.

            I’ve wondered similar about HG but in a different context. If there is no happiness, no contentment, no real pleasure, only a feeling of power, what happens when HG goes on holiday? He can recognise that a scene is beautiful, or that a building has presence. The IPPS supplies fuel through her excitement, pleasure or contentment that they are there together. But for HG, there can’t be too much difference between a well fuelled day at work and a day in Rome. Everything must feel like going through the motions. I looked at Biden similarly in that situation. Going through the motions, nothing there behind it.

            Understanding does help with ET, you’re right. Intellectually we understand and recognise what we see. Understanding why a politician behaves in a certain way or responds in a certain way definitely makes me feel less confused. I don’t feel conned because I won’t fall for the spin in the same way that I might have done previously. Our empathic side enables us to understand the responses of groups of people, we understand why people might feel angry or defensive of their political choices. So really we have the best of both sides in terms of awareness. We get the worst side in terms of an inability to change the problem even when we have a good idea what the problem is.

            Highlighting poor behaviours but also recognising and giving credit to areas where the narcissist does bring wide scale benefit might well be a route to the middle ground as you say. Something has to give. This current division just fuels more chaos and more hatred. Xx

          24. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey TS, looks like those Gremlins have taken a back seat for now 😉 They must have worn themselves out with all the mischief they’ve been making!

            Definitely our idealism manifests as hope. Which is possibly why I’ve become more cynical of late. I’ve held out with hope so many times only to have that hope dashed, usually by narcissists. Maybe that’s why it’s taking me longer to come back round this time. It gets harder to bounce back after each occasion. Now that my eyes have been opened I think that will actually help me to have a more realistic perspective, which in turn should keep my cynicism at a reduced level. What I taste is bitterness.

            When it comes to Biden and his watch checking it definitely smacks of a lack of empathy. As you say, from his perspective he might as well have been waiting in line for a bus. The occasion is not going to affect him either way, unlike an empath in the same situation. Perhaps his cognitive decline is preventing him from being able to maintain his facade as well, and we know from what HG has taught us that mid-rangers will usually operate with a facade. Some people have suggested he was checking his watch to see if it was ‘nap time’ or time for dinner yet. These are the ‘low blows’ which I generally don’t entertain because if he is in cognitive decline then that is something to take seriously and empathy would also be due to him. Either way, his facade is slipping.

            I was prompted by a comment today to check the article on “The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence”:

            “Any challenge to this control requires a defensive response from us when this response is provided through the First Assertion of Control, this comes in two distinct forms. We have a twin defence mechanism. The first line is Denial. The second line is Distract and Deflect.”

            So my understanding is it may have been the second line of defence (Deflect) provided by the first assertion of control. This is due to Biden’s control being challenged in the moment. This is just speculation on my part while I try to make sense of what we saw, but the lack of empathy is obvious and no doubt it can be attributed to his narcissism. Most people don’t know that, though, and even if they did the understandable response is anger and outrage. Although narcissism could account for the behaviour, it doesn’t make it any less heinous in the circumstances.

            It’s hard not to feel sad for the narcissist as an empath when you realize they can’t experience real joy, or pleasure apart from power, which of course are totally different sensations. The nuances of the occasions you mention are lacking. The real connection that could be made with them, apart from how the narcissist can utilize it for their own purposes, are missing. There is no seeing the real beauty or experiencing the real pleasure of the thing or the moment as it exists in itself. Only as it manifests for the narcissist’s purpose. It is hard to imagine the unmoving nature of the narcissist in this sense. That the only thing that can move HG is what he can derive from the occasion, not that it exists in and of itself.

            I agree, we get the best of both worlds in understanding both the narcissist’s perspective and our own empathic perspective. As you say, the frustration lies in the fact we lack the power or ability to do much about it at times. We can only hope to influence the outcome.

            And you’re right, something has to give. If we continue along the lines of black and white thinking it’s going to cost us the middle ground which we can’t afford to lose. Although it seemingly has been lost, so an effort must be made to regain it. Appropriate criticisms and acknowledgements will likely be the thing to help bring us there. Hopefully we are not too far gone xox

          25. Truthseeker6157 says:


            That’s really interesting thinking. I often forget the twin lines of defence, I always focus on the three assertions of control.

            You know it might even be denial. Given that he truly believes that the withdrawal from Afghanistan was a success and takes no responsibility, feels no accountability for those 13 military deaths, it could be denial. Self denial, faced with 13 coffins. Not sure. Deflect makes sense too. As does withdrawal, similar to Harry’s Wife staring forwards standing next to Theresa May. Self distraction. Haha, maybe it is the second line of defence after all, I just talked my way there!!

            Biden’s behaviour appears so disrespectful if you don’t know about narcissism and so odd if you do!

            Speaking about you now. I can understand you feeling bitter. Absolutely. Years of not knowing then suddenly understanding it all. All those narcissists chipping away at you. Bitter is just fine. I would be bitter too. I don’t even think you need to consciously address that feeling either. Looking back at your past I think bitter is a fight response to it. I like a fight response. I think that feeling will keep you safe going forward. You’ll be damned if it happens again, it’ll keep your guard up and again, my view is the guard should be up until people have demonstrated they deserve to be part of your life. It’s not an exaggerated sense of self worth, it’s self preservation.

            Some people might suggest that feeling bitter will prevent moving forward. Not necessarily. The bitterness is backward looking not forward looking. You aren’t sitting there saying ‘All men are the same’ for example. You’re just railing at the injustice of it all I think. There’s the Saviour lighting up, I love it when it does that!

            Your idealism is as inbuilt as your eye colour. Ultimately that hope will push through again, when you’re ready. I honestly don’t think we can keep hope down indefinitely, it always swings back round. I think you just aren’t quite ready for it yet that’s all. Someone will arrive, could be someone who you just enjoy being with, a new friend that crops up on the back of somewhere you go one day. Male or female, doesn’t matter, and you’ll just warm to this person. Hope will automatically fire back into life, but this time, you’ll be watchful for a while. That’s the crucial difference between then and now.

            Hope can be a false mistress, I know what HG means there. It can keep you stuck in a bad spot just hoping things will change. We aren’t doing that here. We have taken and continue to take action through educating ourselves and getting out, then building and maintaining our defences. For us, hope is a good thing, we need it. Hope is very much linked to faith I think. Faith that there is more in store for us, we just don’t know what it is yet 🙂


        2. NarcAngel says:

          But what would we have the nose down normals do?

          I picture them as follows:

          Feeling like they used the only power they had at their disposal – they voted. That they feel their choices were limited and it appears to be proving yet again that politicians are all the same – disappointing. That while maintaining empathy for the people of Afghanistan, they feel they are personally helpless to do anything about it until the next election. That until then, they will focus their limited energy and emotion instead where they believe it will have greater impact, which is in navigating themselves and their limited circle of concern (loved ones) through the current pandemic and other issues at home that affect them more directly.

          Can we really blame the normals? Are the emotional outpourings, indignation, and focus on the most current incumbent (in a long line of can kickers) by empaths really of any more benefit to or changing things currently for the people of Afghanistan?

          Maybe in some cases emotional thinking is deflecting us from dealing with our real and personal issues onto something else?

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA, I see difference in the way to process this between normals and empaths but also in the reaction. I am sure many empaths are trying to do what is in their hands to offer some help. I certainly am. It is not a question of wanting to show more empathy than anyone in the blog or anywhere, I offered some suggestion on another thread on a specific organization I collaborate with. It doesn’t need to be that one. There are ways if you want to be part of some support. Call me ingenious if you will but I want to think our help can change the lives of people looking for a chance to either flee or resist the situation. In the same way a normal wouldn’t care about the Angel Fund because you don’t know who that person is and an Empath however wants to feel that she/he can make a difference. That’s the way I see us different from normals. Am I too idealistic? Probably. I don’t know.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey NA,

            I do see your point. In many ways there is little anyone can do until the next election and that is still years away. I agree also that politics is often about us voting against the person we don’t want as opposed to for a person we do want.

            I think the danger with the normals is that because their reaction to events like these are so paled down in comparison to ours, by the time the election does roll round again, they have forgotten that their President lied blatantly whilst claiming to take responsibility. They are back to being fully self centric again, voting for the candidate that they think makes a material difference to their own situation and their own back pocket.

            That behaviour is understandable, there’s nothing wrong with it, but it does feed into bigger problems just being overlooked and it does further encourage corruption and lies in politics. We can’t fix anything or expect any type of positive change if people aren’t moved by events to vote against behaviour that’s unacceptable. If they aren’t shocked or outraged and they continue voting in a way that benefits only themselves.

            Normals are less likely to be moved enough to donate to any form of charity either. I don’t think they donate because I don’t think they care enough to donate. There’s more normals in the world than narcs or empaths but they don’t seem to mobilise to do anything. I suspect if they do, it’s rarely outside of their own country or areas where they have some form of tie. The normals annoy me because they’re selfish. I think that’s what it is.

            I know I’m venting. I can’t help but vent. I understand what Biden is doing and what Trump is doing, I understand why they are doing it but I’m still just damn angry. Same over here with our politicians handling of it too. Lying and blame shifting to save their own hides but again people aren’t really talking about it. They’d rather talk about Love Island.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Bread and circuses, TS. If I had my way, I would strip the vote from certain people since they cannot be entrusted to exercise it in a meaningful manner.

          4. A Victor says:

            HG, as would I, but then, who decides who can vote and on what criteria? It becomes a can of worms.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I decide, simple you see.

          6. A Victor says:

            Haha, I figured you’d say as much. We can develop the criteria together anyway. 😇😁

          7. A Victor says:

            TS, normals are selfish, to an empath’s ‘perspective’ anyway.

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            The emotional outpourings, indignation, and so on will always be a mark of the empath. If I’m not there, I’m not anywhere as far as my empathy goes.

            I would have to say I disagree emotional thinking is deflecting from personal issues in the context of this situation. Emotional thinking may be fed by personal issues, and I would like you to point out where this is involved, but it is hardly used to deflect. The only thing it is likely to do is exacerabate.

            The rest of your comment on normals aligns with my understanding and I appreciate you stating it so succinctly. I’m sure that is their perspective, and sometimes wish it could be mine.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I can sympathise with that. (bread and circuses comment)

          10. Violetta says:

            “If I had my way, I would strip the vote from certain people”

            Unfortunately, lower-functioning narcs are often the ones to make such decisions. The women of Afghanistan, even educated ones from prominent families, have had the vote stripped by a bunch of itinerant Incels whose real grudge is that even farm families from small villages consider them too pathetic to arrange marriages with them for their daughters and sisters. Even the existing patriarchy looks down on them.

          11. NarcAngel says:

            “Maybe in some cases emotional thinking is deflecting us from dealing with our real and personal issues onto something else?”


            Perhaps emotional thinking adds to empaths (in general) sometimes going all in emotionally on a cause (not specifically Afghanistan) outside of our own situation as an unconscious distraction. Naturally as empaths we are concerned with injustices, but the level to which emotional thinking will sometimes take us might be less altruistic and more avoidant? If I am fully invested in something outside of myself or my situation and emotionally depleted then I am less able to deal with the narcissists in my life? A person remaining in a domestic violence situation while heavily invested in charity work for example?

            It was a question for consideration about the power of emotional thinking, not an accusation.

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            NA, glad you cleared that up as it was unclear to me what you were attempting to say.

            I’m thinking it’s a little like dealing with your own problems before you deal with the world’s or ‘charity begins at home’. Sometimes we focus on what is outside of ourselves as that is easier than focusing on what is going on right under our noses. Please correct me if I am wrong in trying to understand what you are saying.

            I’m sure people can be avoidant about their situations, and make use of issues outside of that as a way of being avoidant. Not quite sure how you tie that in with emotional thinking, but having high ET could be a driver to respond in a more impassioned way to circumstances which trigger our empathic traits (such as justice, truth seeking, etc). I’m having difficulty seeing how emotional thinking can trigger avoidance in the sense of pushing us towards an even more highly emotional situation.

            So getting the avoidant, less so the issue of emotional thinking you believe may be tied to that. Perhaps if our ET is already high we are more easily drawn in. That doesn’t necessarily make us avoidant though. I’m going to have to mull over this one for a while.

          13. Eliza says:

            Emotional thinking is the root of soooo many evils as I see it anyway. I can look at my own life and see mistakes in retrospect. Where politics and voting are concerned I look back and see how my emotions were manipulated by the culture of media. I voted for people who were disasters. It’s a full time job just keeping up now that we have a world of information at our fingertips- but who has that time ? I used to feel like I was pretty well informed by having three newspaper subscriptions, but now ? I think it would be great is HG had a separate blog to provide his take on world events – since he hates with equanimity.

          14. A Victor says:

            Normals are balanced between ET and LT. Both are of value. They can see and define the issue, the feelings around it and a logical solution, maybe several. The problem lies in the nose down aspect , their seeming selfishness and consequent lack of desire to do anything. Until it’s right under their nose.

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I see what you mean now, I missed the second part to your question.

            My view of ET is that it is equally as manipulative as the narcissist. Could a strong empathic response to current events be a ploy on the part of our own ET to delay action in the event of our own ensnarement? I would say hypothetically, yes. I think ET will use any means necessary to delay escape from the narcissist.

            Pair this with the tendency of the empath to place herself lower in the pecking order of needs and it is very conceivable that she could throw herself into work, family, charity work, or concern for world events, before turning to herself and concentrating on what needs to be done in her own situation / ensnarement.

            I took action relatively quickly post the NDC but an online ensnarement is far more straightforward in terms of the practical aspects. However, during the ensnarement I did consistently try to get to the bottom of what was going on rather than exit. My view was that I was ‘the strong one’ out of the two of us (the narcissist and I). This was undoubtedly ET at work. Essentially that thinking means, “I am equipped to deal with being treated badly without taking on too much damage.” That may or may not be the case but it is still ET at work and very warped thinking. Logical thinking would be, “I am being treated badly. I don’t deserve to be treated badly. This isn’t right. I’m off. Bye.”

            I placed my own needs lower in the pecking order. That’s probably not unusual and there are any number of ways that an empath might do that when under the influence of elevated ET.

          16. Joa says:

            TS, Your August 27 comment on manipulative ET is wonderful. Every sentence is very valuable. This is how it works. And even though I am aware of it, I am still in it 😊

            “You will always find an excuse,” my sister once told me. My ability to idealize everyone and everything around me except myself and to self-deceive myself is tremendous.

            And yet, I am doing well in life. Much better than many narcissists.

          17. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Joa,

            It doesn’t surprise me at all that you are successful and more so than many narcissists you know. You are resilient and think on your feet!

            I think a lot of our empathic traits can be advantageous. We are people readers, that can be a huge advantage in all kinds of careers and not necessarily the caring ones. Honesty, moral compass, truth seeking etc, all are valuable in a work / career environment.

            The only thing that messes us up is the narcissist. Here is the person that exploits our strengths for his own ends. HG doesn’t hunt empaths because they are weak. He hunts them because he wants to exploit their traits for his own gain. A normal might take advantage occasionally but consistent exploitation falls to the narcissist.

            The idea that empaths aren’t resilient or they are weak push overs is way off the mark. Some commenters do portray us this way. It’s completely wrong. We’re very resilient and highly resourceful. Those that grew up with narcs for parents had to be.

            In my view, the empath has many advantages over normals, it’s only the narcissists that can mess us up. Everything about HG’s work is about steering clear of narcissists and if we get caught, it’s about getting out as fast as we can. That doesn’t mean he thinks we are weak, it just means we can do far better for ourselves without interference from the narcissist.

            Go forth and conquer!


      3. Wendy says:

        LT totally agree and Joe def has significant cognitive impairment! I’m sure Trump is tooting his horn no doubt. Whether people agreed with him or not he was very entertaining. Lol

    3. Truthseeker6157 says:

      That tickled me NA. You sounded like him!

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Haha, TS, she did sound like him a little, didn’t she? 😛

      2. Duchessbea says:

        I very much agree with your comments on here. There really is nothing comforting about Biden being at the helm. A Leader is supposed to lead, in times of crisis to try their best to solve issues. Biden has let the Afghan People down. I’m starting to agree with some press articles that he is not fit to be in office. He is not even a year in office yet. If this is a hint of what else we should not see from Biden, it beggars belief what the state of World Affairs will look like in 4 years time.

      3. Duchessbea says:

        I’m keeping very well thank you.
        My sister is doing a lot better. She is out of Rehab and is taking it one day at a time. She is working through all the hurt her husband caused her with a therapist. The drinking its seems was going on for a lot longer than what we all knew. She had been drowning her sorrows with a bottle of alcohol pretty much every evening for the last number of years. She hid it well. It’s a slow process but she is getting there. Thank you for asking.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          I agree. I think there is a lot for us to be concerned about with Biden at the helm. Even taking my utter disgust at the current situation out of the equation, there is still a lot to be concerned about there.

          I’m glad that your sister is doing better. Alcohol is likely only to have magnified her narcissism. I hope for her sake and your family’s sake she is able to keep the drinking under control. It must be incredibly tough having a narcissist sibling. Please remember to put your own needs first. Bubbles has a good system going with her mum. It’s a bit more than ANC but it works for her.

          I’m glad you’re still here on the blog. I’m also happy to be talking to the real Duchessbea! Xx

          1. Duchessbea says:

            That is very kind of you to say. It is very hard having a narcissist sibling. Unfortunately, I have more than one. My twin is also a narc.
            I am the only Empath among the siblings.
            Yes, I would agree that the alcohol exacerbated the narcissism. I think from my point of view the betrayal was the hardest, and still is hard to deal with.
            Funnily enough, from my siblings point of view, it was appearances that was most important. My sister’s behaviour was being noticed and they didn’t want a drunk, alcoholic, waster, (their choice of words) to bring down the family’s good name.
            My brothers were very insistent on placing her in rehab as soon as possible after our family meeting. Wasn’t easy considering the Covid. One of them had a contact, and managed to get her into a great rehab. Expensive, yes, but worth it if it helps her get back on her feet properly. She has done her required weeks and is now seeing a therapist outside of the rehab. I made sure I was heavily involved with the choice of therapist. She is seeing one who is aware of and understands the concept of narcissism.
            Funny though, my siblings didn’t agree with this therapist, but I insisted. My brother wanted one that was a friend of his. That, in my opinion would have been detrimental to her healing. As it would have been a narcissist dealing with and agreeing with everything another narcissist is saying.
            I didn’t realise it but the Therapy section, is filled with people practising as qualified therapists but are largely unaware narcissists. Thankfully, I got tipped off about this beforehand.
            For me, I don’t think I will ever trust her again and whatever kind of relationship we had is long gone. Once trust is broken there is no going back for me. I’ll be pleasant for the sake of being pleasant at family get togethers, but that is it.
            It’s a shame, but as HG says, you have to live in the reality.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Duchessbea,

            Familial narcissists must be incredibly difficult to deal with for an empath and you are surrounded. That bond shared through growing up together is very different I think to one that is made through a romantic relationship. So many shared memories and even physical commonalities to have to reconcile.

            I think you did a great job managing to persuade your siblings to use the therapist you had chosen. Narcissism aside, I can imagine nothing worse than seeing a therapist who is a family friend! Too many privacy and confidentiality issues there.

            I can understand that due to lack of empathy your brothers were more concerned about the associated damage your sister would cause to their reputation as opposed to any need your sister might have.

            It’s my understanding that narcissists don’t respond to therapy but this might be in relation to narcissism. Maybe they do respond to therapy that targets a specific issue such as alcoholism. I too have read here that there are numerous therapists who are narcissists. It sounds to me that you did the very best you could for your sister in terms of arguing her case with your siblings and getting her the best help you could.

            The danger of course is that her life remains chaotic and you feel repeatedly obligated to be drawn in to that. That’s above my pay grade and an issue that Im sure HG could help with should that situation arise. I hope it doesn’t and hope instead that you can proceed as planned towards an ANC.

            I think you are in the right place to get the support you need for what sounds to be a complicated family situation. Im glad you battled on to keep your place and your own identity here on the blog. Xx

          3. Duchessbea says:

            Thank you for your post and your very kind words.
            Anything going forward with my sister, I will make sure she is going in the right direction and along with my other sisters and brothers will step in if needs be, but other than that, I think it is best to just keep it to pleasantries from now on. She still has not apologised properly for what she did, and I don’t hold out any hope of her apologising.
            When the trust is gone the relationship just isn’t the same anymore.
            I am very appreciative that you took the time to respond and offer advice. It means a lot TS. Thank you.

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            You’re welcome Duchessbea. It’s a process and I’m sure HG can guide you towards the best outcome. Xx

  8. Bubbles says:

    Dearest Truthseeker6157,
    Crikey …. do you by chance live near me ? Haha We’ve had so much fog lately, I can’t see the neighbour’s back fence …. I absolutely love it.
    Your comment made so much sense Truth, thank you for posting the link, which I played again.
    The ONLY ‘self reflection’ a narcissist has, is when they’re looking at themselves in the mirror 🤣

    Mr Tudor described my midranger ‘weasel’ to a tee. “I know I’ve done wrong and upset my family n friends, what’s why I want to change, you’re my last resort who can help me, everyone has given up on me, I’m so alone. No one understands me” blah blah and more blahhhhhhh

    My mum never owns or self reflects over her mistakes. It’s like they don’t even exist. She blames most things on my deceased step dad and any one else of consequence she can think of, then uses “I can’t remember” for the rest. She’ll chuck a line at a feeble attempt for my benefit, but I can see thru her insincerity.
    The only time I saw her ‘lonely’ was when she was catless for about a week. She was sobbing, miserable and wanted to die, life was not worth living ….the ‘theatrics’ were highly amusing. She knew I was going to get her a cat, but ‘carried on’ regardless. Her demeanour changed in an instant when we got her cat.
    My mum’s gardener came over the other day to mow her lawn (he just comes in, mows the lawn, puts the invoice in the letterbox and I organise her payment ). SHE WAS NOT HAPPY …… “bloody lawnmower, interrupting MY day, how dare he make all that noise when I want MY piece n quiet, he’d better not knock on MY door, I don’t want to see him, he just wants MY money like they all do” Talk about fury!! I instructed her to count to ten and take deep breaths hahahahaha
    You’re right, fuel, control, fury ……then repeat …. that’s pretty much sums them up.

    I absolutely love my own company. I’m very much a people person, however, when I’m out n about mingling with the masses, I start to get this feeling …..’it’s time to go, I’ve had my quota of people today’ then my head starts to cloud and I know my heart will add a couple of extra beats. As soon as I’m out ……ahhhhhh, sheer relief ……it’s like having a warm tinkle 😂

    There’s nothing wrong with being alone, it gives you time to recharge your batteries and press the reset button if need be!
    Always be wary of someone trying to hog you all to themselves and distance you from family n friends by planting seeds about them and getting you offside from those you know and love. A normal caring loving person would not do that, they would want to be involved and see you happy, thriving and content.
    Narcs are never lonely, but they want YOU to be !
    Mr Tudor’s excellent article is a huge ⚠️
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey Bubbles ! X

      No, I don’t live close by, but I really wish I did. I can imagine few things nicer than having Bubbles next door to me!

      I’m glad you liked the video. I agree, it’s excellent. I have a fair few favourites and for differing reasons but that one really set me thinking.

      Your mum is so obviously narcy she is comical, I mean that in the nicest way and only because I know you have learned to remain unaffected by her behaviour. The cat story is a classic. She is almost childlike in the way she goes about things. Then uppity in the next breath. I admire the way you can laugh at her antics whilst skilfully remaining detached.

      It’s interesting you too need your alone time. You are so very bubbly (pardon the pun). It goes to show that even you feel drained when you take in too much. I used to think this meant I was an introvert, but couldn’t understand how an introvert enjoyed being around people so much. Another thing I have learned from HG and the other empaths here. Not an introvert, an empath.

      I hear things are getting tougher in Australia as far as COVID infections go. It might be a good time to turn introvert for a while Bubbles. I hope you and yours are all safe and well and remain so.

      Thank you for your message, it made me chuckle and I’m very glad the video resonated.


      1. Bubbles says:

        Dearest Truth,
        I reckon we’re pretty good neighbours, we know nearly everyone in close proximity and some.
        We give each other gifts, cards, food, wine, exchange unwanted items, go to celebrations, get together for drinky poos and look out for each other and each other’s properties if anyone’s away. We’ve all lived here for over 25years.

        My mum is hilarious in her antics, the crap that comes out of her mouth is unbelievable and the things she does would leave your mouth open wide for so long, you would literally dribble 🤤 You’ve pretty much nailed it Truth …childlike then uppity …chuck in snooty as well, seeing is believing 🤣
        I’ve mastered myself to NOT react hehe
        She almost electrocuted herself the other day by not listening to me and following instructions ….. as narcs have a propensity to do, seriously, If I weren’t detached, I’d be a double storey with a balcony 🤣

        I never been one to to slow down, always on the go. I’ve now come to a screeching halt since I’ve been here in the blog (now with Covid) … you can still see the skid marks 😂
        I known some introverts in my time Truth, it’s like squeezing blood out of stone to get anything out of them. Simply exhausting!

        I think we’re still doing relatively good here re COVID with regards to numbers and comparing other countries. It’s our eastern seaboard that are currently affected the most, very highly populated areas.
        Both our boys are fully vacinated, our daughter is next month, (delayed only because of her age call up n supply) Mr Bubbles has had one shot and I’m having my second tomorrow…. so all good. 💉
        I’m used to all kinds of pricks 🤣

        I’ve had adult whooping cough. I’ve read, where the pertussis vaccine or immunity properties, can in fact, have a level of protection from the virus…..that’s interesting!
        I’d still rather live here than any where else right now though
        Thank you for your kind thoughts n wishes Truth, a delight as always
        Feel free to repost as many videos as you like, I’m sure Mr Tudor won’t mind hehe
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Bubbles,

          That did make me laugh.”If I weren’t detached I’d be a double storey with a balcony.” It is amazing how you have managed to get to that point. You are still able to do the right thing in terms of ensuring she has what she needs but remain unaffected as to what happens outside of that. I expect Mr Bubbles has something to do with your ability to do that. To step into the fray so you genuinely are able to remain detached.

          Mr Bubbles, I read your comment to Asp Emp about him being a friend first and you having known him since you were very young. That’s very romantic. He sounds lovely. Walking on the outside, holding doors, an old school gentleman. That’s incredibly sexy. The only place I saw such courtesy and respect shown to women on a regular basis was in Tennessee, similar in Kentucky. I’ll never forget this really tall chiselled guy opening the door for me once in town. Man he looked good enough to eat. Boots and the cowboy hat, jeans and a really, really, great fitting shirt. I smiled saying thank you and he answered with ‘You’re welcome Ma’am.” in this thick Southern accent. Mmmmm. I digress, a man with excellent manners I find incredibly sexy. So Bubbles, I think you lucked out there. Romantic and sexy. Really all he’s missing is the hat! 🤠.


          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            Thank you lovely
            Mr Bubbles actually has an open weave cowboy gardening hat, it’s as old as Methuselah, bit like him ……not quite the same is it ? 😂

            Narcs can have impeccable manners, I wouldn’t be surprised if Mr Tudor has one 🤠
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Haha I’m ahead of you there. I already asked HG if he owned a cowboy hat. (Well of course I did!)

            The answer




            I think that was likely the abbreviated and polite version of the lengthier response that was in his mind at the time of asking.

            😍🤠 xx

          3. A Victor says:

            TS, this is hilarious, I wouldn’t even think to ask something like this! I have wondered what he’s wearing when we talk on occasion though…? But I wouldn’t ask it!!!

          4. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            But does he own an Akubra?
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. A Victor says:

            Bubbles, I had to look Akubra up! I bet he’d look very hot in one!

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Haha, no to the Akubra. However, if I was to take a rummage through HG’s expansive and expertly lit walk in wardrobe, once I was done switching the various navy suit trousers to the wrong suit jackets, I suspect, on the shelf, right at the back, I would find ….

            A bowler. 😱


          7. HG Tudor says:

            You would not even get near my clothing.

          8. Mercy says:

            Bubbles and TS,

            You have me fantasizing about HG’s closet now. I have a weird obsession with well organized closets. I bet it smells amazing too.

          9. A Victor says:


          10. Truthseeker6157 says:

            “You would not even get near my clothing”

            Why not? (I’m feeling brave today.)

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Because you do not know who I am and you do not know where I live.
            Even if you did, you would not be admitted to my walk in wardrobes.

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Subtle hint to make us daydream: “my walk in wardrobes.” Not even just singular, but plural. Mercy, this one’s for you!

          13. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            I’ve always found my narcs very ‘sensitive’ about their clothing.
            Our greater friend (very out there in your face with his colourful clothes) loves to stir Mr Bubbles about his attire and the brand he wears. My mum laughs at my colourful patterned Covid masks. Yet my mum is extremely bland in her clothes and only ever uses one brand of perfume. I’ve introduced her to some beautiful clothes that look lovely on her, but won’t wear.
            The weasel was a complete clown with his clothes.

            I can totally understand Mr Tudor and his couture….. he’d be extremely meticulous and fastidious.
            Me thinks Mr Tudor might have a flat cap for his convertible and one for a day out hunting/shooting. A Panama hat is perhaps more his style hehe

            Do others find the same with their narcs and clothing ?
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          14. A Victor says:

            Hi Bubbles, both my exes and both my parents also very picky about clothing!! My first ex had so many hangups, one was his mother ironed his jeans and he expected me to also! Okay, possibly understandable in certain situations, for certain occasions, possibly. But, he lived and worked first on a farm and then as a truckdriver. Seriously! I did it all of…twice, maybe? Haha, I was working full-time too!

            My 2nd ex would not allow me to wash his laundry, or folks it, he was very specific about all of that. he allowed me to iron though!

            Parents, similar but I was less involved so not as much impact there. It is an interesting thing, must be about the control?

          15. A Victor says:

            Hi Bubbles, I thought I had replied to your comment, I hope this isn’t a duplicate. But yes, my exes and parents were all very strange about their clothes, in some manner or another. The first ex wanted his jeans ironed. I did it twice maybe, before I declared he could iron them himself, he was a farmer and then a truckdriver, what did he need ironed jeans for?? I worked full-time too, who had the time?

            My second ex would not allow me to wash his laundry, or fold it. He was very picky about all of that, I don’t know what was up with it, he didn’t hide them, he just didn’t want me doing it. It was strange.

            And my parents had/have their own hang-ups, things I heard about from each of them regarding the other but I was further removed.

            Interesting observation, I suppose it has to do with control?

          16. A Victor says:

            Good grief, sorry HG!! I’ll start taking screenshots so I know where I’ve responded.

          17. Truthseeker6157 says:

            You are correct. I am not familiar with Sussex.

            Walk in wardrobes are relatively unusual in British homes. You either have an old house and knocked through or, you have a very modern house that you likely had built. Given that Tudor Towers is being extended, you are almost obsessive with cleanliness, there is an echo on your videos, you own a white desk and you have neighbours I’d say the latter.

            Strangely, I drove past a large set of automatic gates on my way to Lyndhurst this week. The house name on the gate post read ‘Tudor Towers’. What are the chances of that?!

            Thank you for the response.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          19. JB says:

            HG, re. your comment to TS (“You do not know who I am”), do you ever think that one day you might reveal your true identity on here?

          20. HG Tudor says:

            I have not ruled it out, but it is not going to happen anytime soon.

          21. A Victor says:

            Hi JB, I’ve thought about this a lot and I think I’d be a bit sad if/when HG would reveal his identity. Having him as a man of mystery is kind of nice! And if he were known, I feel like suddenly we’d be sharing him with a lot more people, haha, as if they can’t come here now. But, now it “feels” like we get to have a special interaction with him, here. Not on YT or IG. But so few comment here, out of the many that could, that’s how it feels to me. Anyway, if he ever does I will certainly not reject knowing but in the meantime, it is okay in my book as it is.

          22. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Yes, both narcs I was involved with where immaculate in their presentation. The MMRA Somatic was clothes obsessed and his apartment was spotless. Similarly the online narc was immaculate. He smelt divine too. Clean, not over perfumed.

            I would say that being fastidious with presentation was a narc trait but I understand now that it depends on the narcissist. It makes sense, tidiness and cleanliness will tie in to control.

            I attached the video I listened to just in case you hadn’t heard it.


            🕵️‍♀️ Xx

          23. Joa says:

            Mystery, resistance and competition.

            Three basic elements produced by “my” narcissist.

            It’s all here too.
            Too close.


            Bubbles, “my” narcissist likes designer clothes. For me, it’s just nice and made of materials that I like. I buy on the run, by the way. He saturates himself before he buys.
            Likes nonchalantly tossing banknotes in a thick pile. I normally pay by card.

            I’d better not continue 🙂

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Mmmmm, freshly laundered shirts ……..

          25. A Victor says:

            Whispering…TS, I bet you could get in if you were super-sneaky…let us know what it’s like, we’re all living vicariously through you…:)

          26. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Haha, I hate to shatter illusions but I’m the least sneaky person you ever met in your life. If there was an infra red beam I’m walking through it, absolute given, crashing through it would probably be a more accurate description.

            The only thing going for me is the gift of the gab and an ability to brass neck it. Haha. I always just assume I can talk my way in or out of things. I don’t think I could talk my way round HG though, haha, he’s wise to me already.

            I should have been a con artist. Im missing the dishonesty chip though. I carry the guilt chip instead. Guess I’ll just have to go the honest route then!

            Speaking of which, I watched a YouTube about Ana Sorokin last night. Very interesting to watch her responses. Very personable, but no guilt at all. Undoubtedly a narcissist. Possibly a narcissistic psychopath I’m not sure. It’s worth a watch. I have attached the link if HG allows.


          27. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            Great link, I really appreciate and thank you for posting it. Haven’t seen that in yonks, or did I forget, perhaps the latter along with repeating myself 😂

            It confirms our son and his lesser, (who’s a slob). Our son has always been neat clean n tidy, did somewhat slacken off with his appearance and hygiene.

            After I commented to our son, in the nicest possible way, of course, he has since lifted his game, whilst the narc still remains a lazy slob!

            We have a walk-in robe next to our en-suite, pretty much standard in housing here. Mr Bubbles takes up more space than me haha

            That house with the ‘Tudor Towers’ gate post, sounds intriguing and coincidental. Could be onto something Truth. Firstly, I’d look up the address on real estate.com then check in the history sales. Possibly his weekender.
            I’d be curious to see who comes n goes. Stalker much, in this instance, hell yeah ! 🤣

            Trouble is, when you fund out, there’s usually disappointment at the end ☹️
            I keep envisaging Mr Tudor to be a cross between Henry Cavill n Matt Bomer 🤣
            Thank you again Truth
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          28. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Joa,
            Double take, “he saturates himself before he buys”
            Are you literally implying what I’m thinking ?
            Just checking
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          29. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’m glad the video was helpful. You must have to hold yourself back, bite your tongue and blindfold yourself as far as your son’s partner is concerned. Not easy.

            I nearly choked on my Chuppa Chups when I drove past those gates! I did consider looking up the house, couldn’t bring myself to do it though.

            Honestly, I’ll eat my knickers if HG named his house Tudor Towers. I think that’s just the way he refers to the house. I believe the house will have a name not a number, I just don’t think it will be ‘Tudor Towers’.

            The location was wrong. I’m pretty sure HG doesn’t live in that county. The setting was wrong too. Too built up, no fields behind. There are definitely fields behind the house.

            On top of that though, as curious as I am, if I really thought I knew the house, I wouldn’t search and name check. I’d get a kick out of having found it, but I wouldn’t do anything with the information. I wouldn’t hang out at the local coffee shop with my long range camera haha! Not through wariness, I just couldn’t invade his privacy in that way. It’s just not in me. It’s why I’m a rubbish cluehunter. I can’t go close enough to the bone. I have once or twice, felt terrible after. Not for me.

            I’m pretty sure that joking aside, you would be the same Bubbles. 😘

            So you are safe HG, aside from the cameras, trip wires, retractable gun turret etc. I wouldn’t go near the house even if I knew. No need to triangulate me with the wardrobe!


          30. Joa says:


            I don’t know what you meant 😊

            For me, it was about enjoying, savoring having something like a dream about a given object or clothing. He was able to think about shoes for 5 days, show models and change clothes. Sometimes he didn’t buy. The dream itself was enough.

            For me, shopping is a simple matter. I take what I like and it has the right price and that’s it. Quick. I am not mistaken, I am rarely dissatisfied. I don’t take my time on this type of nonsense.

            “My” narcissist reminded me of a teenager in his most dreamy period 😊 The world of fiction, into which he drew me.

    2. Duchessbea says:

      Dearest Bubbles,
      I agree with what you say.
      The way I look at it, you are effectively dealing with children in adults bodies.
      We all know how to deal with a five year old having a tantrum. Apply same logic when dealing with narcs.
      Kiss the BooBoo better.

      1. Bubbles says:

        Dearest Duchessbea,
        Pretty much Duchess. My mum panicked yesterday, as she said she had run out of Nutella and instead of phoning me, she waited til I phoned her and had a tanty over the phone.
        “I had to go without my toast, I somehow managed to scrounge up the tiniest morsel of jam, it was just awful! I know you’re so meticulous Bubbles and wondered how you might overlook it, I had no breakfast, I was starving, upset my whole day and put me out of routine” rant rant
        I quietly calmed her down and asked her to go look in the overhead kitchen cupboard ….. “ohhhhhh, THERE it is” ……. (where it always is) …….. 3 1kg tubs 😱

        Yes ….. .kiss the BooBoo better
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  9. Kiki says:

    Hi all

    I’ve taken a step and deactivated FB account.
    Is it just me or is FB crawling with people who have zero interest in you just using it to nose into your life
    I have colleagues doing this .


    1. A Victor says:

      Hi Kiki,
      I haven’t had FB for years, way too intrusive, I am a very private person, except here and that’s only due to the anonymity. But yes, I felt the exact same way. And I have not missed it one bit.


      1. JB says:

        HG, I suspected you might say that (no immediate plans to reveal your identity). I guess you get less hassle if no-one knows who you are.

        AV, I am replying here, as there is nowhere else to reply which is nearer to your comment (why does that annoy me so much?! 😂)

        Re. HG’s identity..yeah, I agree, I think I quite like the mystery too! I like that none of us know who anyone is (including HG), makes it easier to open up somehow, like a confessional!

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi JB, additional thoughts I’ve had around this…He is getting credit for what he does and it is the best information available, all credit going to the person known as HG Tudor. As far as we know, The Sheildmaiden doesn’t know about his narcissism/psychopathy, the blog, his YT, IG etc. She would have to know, and it might affect his ability to procure future victims if his true identity were known. From his perspective a bad thing. But, if he could become the first to actually make a relationship “work”, as in, she knows and they stay together and it “works”, from our perspective of course, that would be an amazing legacy. It would not speak how he views it or to anyone else doing the same, of course, but it would make him absolutely the Ultra, the one who could. It would be very interesting to see just how that would work, as in, would he still have the ability to manipulate her? Would she just giggle when he pulled his narc ‘shenanigans’? Would she be able to say, “Oh, that’s just his narcissism at work, I love the real HG.”, and let things go that normally would affect relationships? It would remove a lot of power from him, as he knows it now, it would be a massive change in his entire experience on the planet. I’m speculating of course but these are all things I have actually wondered about. And this isn’t even going into his professional work and how that might benefit or be hindered by him being known.

          There are many authors who are not known widely by their real identity and yet they benefit from their work financially and by way of becoming known for their work under their pseudonym. Would he be more effective in the realm of “professional” psychiatry/psychology? Maybe. Would he be more recognized by the legal system, perhaps. As you said, only he can know. I give him, as HG Tudor, all the credit whenever I discuss narcissism with people already, so it would only add his actual name and maybe a face. For many it would never go beyond that. I have also wondered if staying anonymous offers a way of escape in the event that he decides to stop. I think I would want that, until a certain point anyway, just another thought I’ve had.

          A confessional, yes, I like that terminology, it allows us to unload! And I think, for me anyway, that has been such an important part of the learning and healing process. As in an exchange yesterday with TS, we are not judged here nor by HG, for some of us for the first time ever in our lives, for me that is certainly true. It allows me the opportunity to really consider if the nervousness, bordering on panic many times, I have about showing who I really am is needed or if I have bought in to my narcissist’s messaging. I think I can let that go, non-narc people will like the real me, or not but that’s nothing to me. And I’ve given my narc’s way too much power in this area my entire life, I need to take the power and just be me, I am lovable as I am. Not perfect, but not unlovable. I am once again so grateful to HG for the opportunity to sort these things out in this safe place and with his safe guidance and information.

          1. JB says:

            AV, yes I just don’t see how it coykd

          2. JB says:


            Yes, I just don’t see how it could work, if HG were to reveal his true identity. All future relationships would pretty much go tits up from that point onwards!

          3. A Victor says:

            Unless he could convince them to try anyway, maybe they’re the one who will succeed?! Lol! It could potentially be a fun challenge for him, how far can his charm take him!

          4. Asp Emp says:

            JB, in my view, I believe HG has successful relationships with other people and if anyone turns their back on him for revealing his identity, then they are not humanitarian. I don’t think SM would treat him any differently in any case. I wouldn’t either. He is who he is, as he is.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            AV, apparently Shieldmaiden does know – as per questions / responses in the Q&Q 27th June?

            In my opinion, HG would not stop doing what he enjoys – writing. He is exceptionally brilliant at it.

            I believe once that the mental health professionals cotton on that narcissism is the main reason for the affects of emotional / mental and also physical ‘issues’ within the population worldwide, they’ll be looking at HG’s Legacy with their blinkers taken off. They’d also make the ‘connection’ to the issues of politics etc as well.

          6. A Victor says:

            I thought HG said no, she doesn’t know. I will double check.

            I was speculating, not anything solid to go on, just my thoughts. But, I do think his audience is much larger on YT than books or even the blog possibly. So I see that content creation becoming and remaining the most needful. I hope he continues to write, he is absolutely brilliant at it. And for those of us who like to read, it is a pleasure. But I think so many in today’s culture want something short and sweet, hence the popularity of the YT videos. They are of course also excellent, but not everyone’s preferred way of learning, that’s all.

            I’m not so sure the m/h professionals will be so accepting, I feel like they want to maintain that it takes a special grouping of letters behind one’s name in order for anything to be recognized. But, I do hope I am wrong and you are right. And if anyone can break through that mindset, it will be HG!

          7. Asp Emp says:

            AV, I think the difference between YT and the blog is the fact people can listen to the videos and hear that voice of his.

            There is much to be said and also has been proved, many a time, that Experts by Experience are the best people to teach those so called medical “experts”. Some professionals learned from me as a Deaf person and someone with Aspergers. That can lead to changes within their own practices / work-places. I know about my “conditions” better than any GP in my local doctors surgery…..so in that respect, I am better than them at knowing what my “needs” are. I also proved that by spending over a year on KTN, without the need of prescribed medication to “alleviate” my “depression”. If someone is capable of teaching themselves the knowledge that medical professionals know nada about because they have either not experienced it, nor learned it. HG taught himself. I taught myself. Others can. HG has provided the resources, it is there for the medical people to access it and ‘break’ their own mindsets.

            Thanks HG, for your encyclopedia on narcissism 🙂

          8. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you, HG.

          10. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, I agree about the sound of HG’s voice on YT, for many people it is a draw.

            And I agree that we can change ourselves, regardless, even in spite of, “experts”. I have just hoped that the “experts” would eventually embrace HG’s teaching, giving him credit of course, since it would pull in an even wider audience and give those who believe only in said “experts” an opening to learn the truth. Those of us who trust ourselves to do the best for ourselves can find what we need without that “approval” from those with letter groups behind their names. And I think once a person has experienced a narcissist and gets ahold of HG’s material, they can become a believer without any other approval, I know I did. Anyway, that’s all I was thinking, to further his legacy and extend his reach, I am hopeful for the so-called experts to adopt his teaching.

          11. Asp Emp says:

            AV, the so-called experts would have to, should it become mandatory to adopt awareness / training on narcissism as part of their job.

          12. JB says:


            Well, yes, I guess he could convince them to try anyway. If anyone can persuade, HG can!

          13. JB says:

            Asp Emp,

            In theory I agree with you..in practice, though, imagine you have read everything that is on here (and more), and then you find out the bloke in question is actually your boyfriend? Wouldn’t it make you think twice just a little bit? After all, you would surely be next for the treatment outlined in the articles and videos? Surely to think otherwise would be a diversion from logic, and emotional thinking?

          14. Asp Emp says:

            JB, in theory and practice, very few people actually understand (and know) me as an individual and with what I have learned on KTN, I don’t believe I would “think twice” especially if such a relationship existed and continued for more than, say a year or so. I have not ended almost life-long friendships just because I have learned and now, understand about narcissism. Sometimes, some people do not bare their whole ‘soul’ to another person because sometimes, it is not necessary. Some people want to be accepted and understood for who they are (not what – that is ‘labelling’ in my view). People have different perceptions about others and that is the one important thing I have learned about myself through the resources / comments and so on via KTN.

          15. JB says:

            HG, is that correct, that your partner is aware of your identity on here?

          16. HG Tudor says:


          17. Violetta says:

            If their relationship “worked,” it would just give the rest of us false hope. One of the first things I learned here is we can not make it “work.” We can never change them, and “accepting them for who they are” won’t achieve a damn thing, because they want the tears and the tantrums, not to be accepted. They’ll want a variety of fuel, and if your reaction to the news of a Dirty Little Secret is “Oh, that’s nice, dear,” and returning your attention to your knitting, they’re not getting fully fueled. They might have to pick up an STD from the DLS just so they can pass it to you, and get that emotional reaction.

            I’ve often had the feeling, “If I’d known you when you were a baby, you wouldn’t be like this,” but our love is useless now. It’s done. Can’t unbake a cake and turn it back into flour and eggs and start over.

          18. JB says:

            Asp Emp,

            It’s funny, my reaction to this situation would, in the past, have been the same as yours (accept him for who he is, etc, not humanitarian to do otherwise), but it’s HG himself who has taught me that actually, that isn’t necessarily a good idea. Mind you, I haven’t had chance to put it to the test, so in all honesty I can’t say how I would actually react in that situation..


            I love the cake analogy! Think it’s spot on, sadly!

          19. Asp Emp says:

            JB, thank you for your perceptions. While we are on KTN blog, we all are ‘re-learning’ in our own ways in how we perceive our pasts and other people that we may or may not directly interact with as part of our lives. Quoting similar wording on this blog “I’ll be me and you be you”. What I am sure of, is that my past no longer has a ‘hold’ on me the way it used to. That is what I have taught myself to do through the availability of HG’s work, he provided the ‘key’ for me to unlock my psychology and for that, I am eternally grateful.

          20. JB says:

            Asp Emp,

            What you said about HG providing the key for you to unlock your psychology, and you being eternally grateful to him for that – I agree wholeheartedly. I, too, have learned so much about myself since coming here. Things now finally make sense, and I, too, am so grateful to HG for that.

          21. A Victor says:

            Me also!!

        2. Fiddleress says:

          JB: “like a confessional” – my thoughts exactly! Speaking to HG in consultation without either of us seeing the other is the modern version of the confessional (in the Catholic Church).
          A bit like sessions with a psychoanalyst..

          1. JB says:

            Fiddleress, yes it definitely feels like a form of therapy, but without the warm and cuddly bit! 😂

          2. Fiddleress says:

            Hi JB, I am sure that the warm and cuddly bit from HG would help a lot! But as far as I am aware, no therapist provides that bit. And I don’t even want to think about a priest being cuddly…

          3. JB says:


            Not literally, no. But the therapist appears to genuinely care about you, whereas we know that HG doesn’t care about us. Sometimes I find feeling like someone cares about your feelings helps x

          4. Violetta says:

            After the emotional intrusions of my elementary school teachers and guidance counselors, I find that fact that HG doesn’t give a shit about my feelings immensely comforting.

          5. Fiddleress says:

            Violetta, I get you. In fact, I know that I can sort of think “oh yes, a warm and cuddly HG for just one minute might feel good” because I just know that’s never gonna happen – typical me: if there was the slightest chance it might happen, I wouldn’t want it. At all.

            But cognitive empathy and sympathy is definitely welcome, which I find that HG exhibits. That’s probably because I’ve been invalidated enough in the past, including by a therapist. But emotional empathy is not warranted at all, just the cognitive sort is great.

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I agree with you here. I think it depends on the individual as to what they need from a therapist. I can understand some people would benefit from a softer approach in some situations. I actually wouldn’t want any sympathy from a therapist. I’d want information. I’d want them to bring new information or new tools to the table that I didn’t already have myself.

            A therapist offering sympathy wouldn’t help me. Also I’d view that as being too personal. If I need sympathy or someone to fall apart on I’d go to my dad or a best friend. It’s a trust issue for me and I’m never going to trust a therapist to that extent.

            So, if we were to cast HG in the role of therapist, which isn’t how he would describe himself in consultation for obvious reasons, then actually HG would be the ideal therapist for me. Tell me what I need to know and don’t overstep the personal / emotional boundary. Be calm, unaffected by the fact I’m struggling, stick to what I need to know, don’t wrap it up for me, give it to me straight. If you’re going to do anything to take the edge off, make me laugh. Skit me a little, that’s fine.

            HG nailed it in my consultation. He knows us better than I think we realise. He should do, he reads us often enough!

          7. JB says:


            I can understand that. Keeps it strictly professional, and everyone knows where they stand.

          8. Violetta says:

            Here’s another advantage: when HG did the NDC on my then-co-worker, one of the first sentences on the recording was “Yes, she is,” followed by calmly ripping her several new orifices while listing and categorizing her various narc behaviors.

            I did not have to worry that HG was taking my side because we’re Besties, because he doesn’t know me from a hole in the wall. If he passed me on the street, he wouldn’t know or care who I was. This was the objective opinion of a narcissist with considerable experience in analyzing other Narcissists. He took details I had listed randomly and arranged them so the patterns were clear. Meghan Markle has not received a keener focus than my Lower-Mid-Range co-worker, who apparently was only a few thin slices of flimsy facade above Lesser.

            I can’t express the relief I felt. The job was unsalvageable: I’ve since learned from current and former employee reviews that there is a lot of turnover, and a common tactic is trying to get people to rage-quit. That didn’t work with me, though they succeeded in tiring me out until I made a mistake. But at least I knew what was going on, and I could be sure that HG wasn’t just trying to be “nice.”

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Correct. I am accurate and effective. I have no need to be nice in the delivery of my work.

          10. WiserNow says:

            HG, Violetta, Fiddleress, TS6157 and JB,

            Interesting discussion. It’s pretty clear that each of us has our own personality, which is evident in our comments. Plus, we also have anonymity here. Each of us will have our own perceptions on how information is ‘delivered’ to us.

            For example, as Violetta says, she may actually enjoy HG ripping new orifices in someone, or TS6157 may prefer an impersonal and blunt delivery. Some people may find that being ‘nice’ is putting on an act, while others may feel that not being nice is cold or arrogant. One person’s ‘warm and fuzzy’ might be another person’s ‘good manners’.

            It all comes down to how the ‘receiver’ of the information perceives the tone, delivery and words used, etc. Just because one person perceives it in a certain way, doesn’t mean that everyone perceives it in that same way.

            Personally, I find that the anonymity makes it much easier to be honest and open. I would not want to (or could not) share or discuss what I do here with a family member or someone I know.

            The thing that’s great about HG is that he’s generally open-minded and patient with all of us and our different personalities. He is inclusive – as long as we behave and there is no threat to his control. There are times I think he has more empathy than the empaths here do …when he’s not talking about eating a toasted empath for breakfast that is …

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, RE: your first paragraph – I started laughing….that was funny to read.

          12. JB says:


            Yes that does make sense. I agree with TS ( “I want information”), but think maybe I am a bit of a greedy cow sometimes, as ideally I would like both, that is, excellent info and a bit of warmth to boot! 😂 (mind you, if I really had to choose, I would pick quality of info over warmth and sympathy any day!)

          13. Violetta says:

            JB: I would actually not welcome warmth in such a setting. I’d be too worried, “What if I’m the narc, or at least an asshole? What if my dear friend doesn’t notice, or doesn’t want to hurt my feelings by telling me?”

            HG is not my friend. He will not automatically take my side because I’m so lovable. He would notice if I were narc-ish (I suspect even if I tweaked the NDC to depict the co-worker as negatively as possible, past the point of distorting, as might be natural, to outright lying, he could glean considerable information about me by the types of lies I would tell). Most importantly, he has no inhibitions about hurting people’s feelings when necessary. I’ve seen him tell people here quite bluntly that they are not maintaining full No Contact, that the little excuses they make for some of their actions are the result of emotional thinking. If they are so offended they never return and he makes no further money or fuel from their buying material or consults, tough.

            He does not give false encouragement. I had enough of that shit growing up, teachers emitting the “I’m sure you can do it if you try!” routine, which worked about as well as tossing you into the deep end of the pool and saying “swimming is “b>fun</b," but never bothering to teach you how to do the flutter kick, the arm crawl, or how to turn your head to the side and take a breath. If you don't drown altogether, you'll probably hate swimming.

            God save me from what Florence King called "Huggy-bears."

          14. JB says:


            ‘Huggy Bears’! Haha, I like that! 😂

            I do actually like HG’s no-nonsense approach. But I think if I were in front of a therapist, I would value some warmth in the delivery too. But not fake warmth, it would need to be genuine, otherwise what’s the point?

          15. JB says:


            I agree, it’s fascinating! But I have always been fascinated by people and what makes them tick!

          16. WiserNow says:

            Hi JB,
            What is it that you find fascinating? I’m not sure what you mean? I’m guessing it’s how each person perceives HG’s approach, however, that may not be what you’re referring to.

          17. JB says:


            Yes, that is what I meant – I find the differences in how each person perceives HG’s approach fascinating.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Hello Kiki, good on you to decide to deactivate FB. Yeah, you will find that there are some people who just want to know EVERYTHING hence your words “just using it to nose into your life”. I simply do not include them in my posts…….(naughty little empath, me), I like to to ‘stir’ them up a bit…..it’s probably likely that I have more ‘blocked’ people than friends LOL.

    3. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hi Kiki,

      I think that’s wise. I always feel like I’m invading privacy if I look at FB. I know people post so that others see what’s happening but I always feel like I’m spying. I have two FB accounts, barely use either. Occasionally I’ll post holiday pics for convenience but other than that, very little.

      If I want to share some news with friends, I call them or see them. Often FB friends are really just acquaintances in my view. Maybe I’m just old fashioned and obsessed with privacy. So be it!

      How are you doing with your No Contact? Feeling any better? Hope so. Xx

    4. MP says:

      I’m sure people do that. That’s why I don’t post as much as I used to. But my relatives from my home country loves to see pictures of my kids and family so I keep them updated. I also love seeing pictures of my two elderly aunts and seeing they’re happy and healthy. I have hundreds of friends but only talk occasionally to less than thirty maybe and then I have 50-70 people that doesn’t say anything but likes what I post. FB is also helpful for selling things my kids have outgrown and buying second hand stuff. Aside from that I don’t expect much from FB.

    5. Bubbles says:

      Dearest Kiki,
      Excellent precious, good for you! That’s a huge leap and a very strong move you just made

      Exactly, that’s why I have no friends and I’m going to keep it that way.
      I use my phone instead….its more private and personal
      No one needs to know your business, the less they know the better
      Keep up the great work Kiki 🤗
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    6. Wendy says:

      Hi Kiki, I deactivated mine too. It was a waste of precious time. Plus, there is the risk of me unblocking my ex narc when I am feeling weak. I decided I need to start doing more enjoyable activities so I bought a kayak! Can’t wait to get it on the water. 😊

      1. Kiki says:

        Thank you everyone, I’m having a pesky problem the damn thing won’t deactivate.
        I unfriended someone I know is a Narc , this person friended me , and I accepted as I was worried about the consequences.
        5 months in this person doesn’t interact with me at all and ignored a Direct message despite reading it and my triggers went flying.I found it so hurtful and rude.
        Now this person has caused me grief before and I gave it 3 days no reply to my message.I reckon the only reading they friended me was for information about my personal life.I’m fiercely private .
        I’m over 7 months no contact with ex romantic Narc who devastated me , my self esteem is low and I don’t want to put up with people online being rude to me , blatant ignoring and silent treatments trigger me .
        I’m now terrified as I have to face this other female Narc daily in a few weeks
        Is it best to just shut the whole thing down and feign ignorance.


        1. Asp Emp says:

          Hi Kiki, RE: having an issue with deactivating FB – have you tried doing this from another phone or laptop?

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:


          It’s almost impossible to deactivate a FB account. However something happened to me a few months ago that might be of use.

          I received a message with a photo attachment from my old boss via FB messenger. The message above the photo read, ‘ Hey TS, remember this?’ I clicked on the photo, I was asked to download a piece of software to view the photo. I clicked on that. It took me to another screen asking me to agree to the terms etc. At that point I closed it.

          I then watched my own FB messenger account message all my friends in the friends list with the same message and photo attachment. ‘hey Julie, remember this?’ etc. I’d been hacked. I blanket messaged all of my friends and told them not to open any messages from me. I had been hacked and would unfriend all of them. As I was unfriending, I received two further messages from two of my friends with the same message and attachment.

          You could message out and say you are un friending everyone on your FB due to your messenger account being compromised. You have the explanation above. You can then go silent for a few months and refrained a select few in the future should you decide to. Not the most honest approach but it does the job.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            It’s not impossible, I did it and I am not a tech savvy person. You can also delete permanently your account.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            SP, I don’t ‘sync’ all my social media accounts onto FB – I personally find it ‘intrusive’. I like to keep them all separate in any case. I refrain from providing personal details (if it is possible) and with-hold it where possible. I think it also led to less “sales marketing” calls too (majority being scammers).

            Yes, you are right, it is easy to deactivate & permanently close FB.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Asp Emp, I don’t have social media so I don’t sync anything. Oh not true I only have IG to stalk HG like most of us here haha. But nobody in my real life is aware of that. It’s liberating.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            SP, I had always been a bit skeptical in ‘syncing’ and since coming here, my ‘warning system’ was proved right. And certainly even more so after my experiences with the narcissists at work! I must be one of the rare types, as I don’t use IG to ‘follow’ HG (sorry, HG, it’s not personal – it is just to avoid potential “friend” requests as I did get one as soon as a guy noticed one of my friends had friended me on IG, this was within a couple of days on IG – he liked my profile pic and he was a ‘photographer’…..) as I have WP & FB. I had my own reasons for not telling my friends about IG account, because as soon as one (from school) friended me on FB, a friend of hers sent me a friend request……within hours……yup, ‘sharks’ galore! We should be able to have a private life, even away from friends – I mean, why not?

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Asp Emp, I totally respect your decision to not follow HG or anyone else. But regarding potential friend requests from acquaintances and such, it is nearly impossible anyone in my circle decided to follow Sweetest Perfection who doesn’t ever post a picture of herself or anything in her life that can give in who she is. In fact, nobody has. I don’t have an account with my real name on IG. I have one on LinkedIn but it’s just a cover for strategic reasons, I don’t use it otherwise.

          6. Asp Emp says:

            SP, thank you for your response. RE: friend requests, via my FB can only get through if they are a friend of a friend…..laughing and I totally understand, about the use of real name or not on social media. That is originally what I did when I joined FB and friends couldn’t find me LOL. I had to start using my real name for business purposes…..anyway, thank you for sharing your views. Maybe, I’ll follow HG to the moon instead.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You should follow HG to the moon and back… at a distance. Hahaha!!

          8. Asp Emp says:

            SP, laughing……what rule is applicable in distance?

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You follow him from earth while he is on the moon and viceversa when he’s back. That seems cautious enough.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            SP, that sounds like a lot of ‘Babel’.

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You mean the movie that contains three of my favorite actors: Cate Blanchet, Gael García Bernal and Brad Pitt?

          12. Asp Emp says:

            SP, maybe, just maybe we are not quite on the same ‘page’ here 😉

          13. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Haha I was kidding. I knew what you meant. And since HG is a god, you definitely don’t wanna get too close to incur in hubris.

          14. Asp Emp says:

            SP, laughing……hmmm, yes, well……

        3. MP says:

          Hello Kiki, I think that you did the right thing. It was really rude to friend you and then not reply to you. I have unfriended some people that also activated my triggers through the years. I have also deactivated my FB for about six months and I actually just reopened it last month or so to sell stuff and get in touch with my relatives. The six months of no FB has helped me because FB is actually toxic. I use IG more but I have much less friends there and interact with probably less than ten people. But it’s less toxic for me.

        4. Empath007 says:

          Definitely shut the whole thing down. Social media is no place for an empath.

          1. Joa says:

            I have no problem with FB at all. I publish if I feel the need to. I watch. I communicate and comment.

            FB is a great tool. Useful both in contacts and at work.

            Of course, among my friends I have ONLY real friends, i.e. people I know in the real world.

            I do not accept invitations from strangers, people I have met once or whom I do not trust (I very rarely feel an internal aversion towards someone).

            I’ve been using FB for many years and I’m not going to stop. It significantly speeds up the flow of information. I enjoy the photos shown by my friends with whom the stage of friendship has ended or there is no time to meet, as I would like.

            I like sharing happiness and I like it when others do. It’s beautiful.

            Sometimes one photo or one sentence can indicate that someone you know is in a big hole. Many people start helping. It’s nice 🙂

            There are many good people in the world. Much more than bad.

            And I will add one more thing – no narcissist I know has an account on FB (official). They only track fake accounts. They are too suspicious to post anything, they just watch.

          2. A Victor says:

            Joa, thank you for sharing your perspective, it is a valuable one, especially regarding bad/good people.

            To your last paragraph, my mother, confirmed by HG to be a narc, has an account. You are correct, she is too paranoid to post much but does use it to ‘watch’. Her behavior in this way is a big reason I don’t choose to be on there. But I am happy for my friends who can.

          3. Joa says:

            Victor, you have the option of marking your friends as close, ordinary, or more distant.

            People I know, especially from work, but I do not fully trust them, I have distant friends (they do not know it).

            When publishing a post or photo, I mark it to be visible to all friends, except for distant.

            You show what you want and who you want.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi Joa, yes, I did all of those things, I really just didn’t like the time involved, though I could monitor that for myself of course, and I didn’t like the voyeuristic quality of it, both to others and them to me. It made me feel exposed whenever I put anything on there, so, since it’s not necessary to my life, at this time anyway, I left it. Maybe I’ll use it again when I’m old and can’t get out much. Then I could see it being useful for keeping in contact with others. But that will hopefully be many years away.

        5. Bubbles says:

          Dearest Kiki,
          I unfriended everyone (except my immediate family) I rarely post anything and if I do it’s a funny meme (surprise) nothing else. I get friend requests all the time ….. I never accept them, it’s so easy, you don’t feel a thing
          What consequences ????
          If anyone asks, ‘I don’t use FB’ ..simple! I have it all on private settings and I don’t have a selfie profile.
          You can also delete/unsend messages and posts
          I don’t have Instagram nor do I need or want it
          Don’t overthink or ‘what if’, a situation, that hasn’t occurred yet
          Shut it down and just play dumb, I ‘play’ dumb all the time, funny how it comes so easy for me 😜
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        6. JB says:

          I think you are right to want to get rid, Kiki. I still use Fb as it is useful for contact with family abroad, but I hardly post or comment at all now. I I hate how the degree of how good a friend you are seems to be related to whether you like another person’s posts. And as for the posts ‘Can I ask a favour?..Only my true friends will repost this..will you be one of my 5?’, making out if you don’t repost some completely uninformative post on (insert name of illness) to supposedly ‘raise awareness’ (how?!) then it means you don’t care! Grrr..!

          1. Kiki says:

            Thank you everyone, some great help here as always .
            It’s true that my Narc ex doesn’t have FB , but I feel in my gut I am dicing with a few who do .
            I’m a very private person and get very strong vibes when I sense something is off or certain people just want gossip fodder .
            I rarely post anything for that reason alone.
            I love the idea of saying it was hacked and playing dumb .
            Thank you everyone 😊

            Kiki ❤️

          2. MP says:

            Haha, That and I also hate the “Type Amen if you care” with a picture of a very sick or dying person who probably didn’t know or agreed to have their pictures be used to get fuel or attention on Facebook.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Good example.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Amen to that! 😂

          5. MP says:

            Thank you HG.

          6. Joa says:

            And I would like to add that for me FB is only to a marginal extent viewing photos of my friends. It is very quick information, necessary in my profession. And also a mine of knowledge through the exchange of experiences – just like here on the HG blog.

            I am on FB in a few closed groups. One group of people with the same autoimmune disease that I have, you could say, saved my life. Now I have so much knowledge that makes it easier for me to control and manage this disease. There are also many doctors in the group, including mine, who also gain experience in this way. In a way, I was also a guinea pig twice, because I am not afraid to test new drugs which, after careful analysis, decide that they can help me.

            Of course, you have to filter a lot, because sometimes there are total stupid things.

            Another group are girls with whom I have been friends for 16 years, we were all pregnant at the same time, we met on another portal and then moved to FB. We have a bit less contact now, but over the years, each of us has had an invaluable experience in terms of motherhood and relationships. There was a time when “my” narcissist devalued, that these contacts allowed me to hold on, focus on what is most important in all this confusion – that is, on the child.

            Another group – experience of independent mothers, strong help in legal matters. How much I learned there … Knowing what awaited me, I was very sure during each court hearing. All verdicts come my way.

            It is important to me that these kinds of groups are closed. I don’t need to advertise my illness or my next trial.

            Therefore, no narcissist will make me move away from areas that I consider important. Wherever I see the potential for learning, broadening horizons, I will be there.

            I’m here for the same reason. A mine of knowledge and human study. Building exchange of experiences.
            I’m just afraid that “my” narcissist will end up here someday. He will recognize me in the blink of an eye. And he shouldn’t know about a lot of the things I’ve sincerely wrote here, especially how engrossed in him I am. It would have good fuel 🙂 And in our “fight” – information is power 🙂

        7. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Awww Kiki I’m sorry it triggers you so strongly. It’s a horrible feeling. But if you allow your LT to override you ET it’s simple to explain away. If they are rude or ST they’re quite probably an N. If they’re an N we are only appliances to them. We may not be useful at they point in time or someone else may currently be more useful. They may be doing it to control and manipulate. Whatever their reason it only speaks about them and not you in the slightest.

          It’s horrible and no one decent would treat you like that so if they’re not decent we don’t need to want or expect anything from them.

          Put simply, you’re lovely snd they’re not.

    7. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Dear Kiki: well done. Mine has been deactivated since 2018. I use messenger but narc is blocked there together with his wife (he uses her account sometimes when she’s not paying attention). Do you remember HG’s articles about the use of social media to manipulate you? Check mark all the manipulations described in them and you have a perfect portrait of my somatic narc. Not being able to find you on Facebook is like taking the fish out of the water: he will suffocate. Keep it like that.

      1. Kiki says:

        Hi Sweetest Perfection

        Ex Narc is gone , he didn’t have a FB account .I’m months out but still healing.
        My prob was with someone actually a few I work with .
        Rude is actually an understatement, I didn’t friend any work colleagues a few sent me requests to be honest I don’t like work colleagues nosing into my life as they are not my friends.
        One in particular has caused me trouble before.
        I unfriended her as she rudely ignored a direct message.
        I have no issue with someone not replying for a day or two we are all busy of course but it was read and blatantly ignored.
        That triggers and sends red flags flying over ex Narc , it’s hurtful and I simply don’t want that in my life any longer I don’t care who it is anymore.
        but there will be consequences for me .
        My FB is actually fairly new , lockdown drove me there .Tbh it’s full of shit , isn’t it
        I really need a direct consult with HG about the workplace,

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Hi Kiki, do you have HG’s assistance package – https://narcsite.com/2021/08/15/how-to-handle-a-narcissist-at-work-2/ ? It is brilliant and you can refer back to it again in the future if you needed it – as you mention more than one at work? Or have the consult with HG. Hope there is a quick way round the ‘issues’ at work for you 🙂

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Hi Kiki, congrats on moving on from narc ex, as time passes by you will realize you think less about him. I encourage you to have a consultation with HG, he knows everything and he nailed every single aspect of both my personality and the narc I was with. I had the same experience you described above about the colleague not replying despite having read you. In my case it is a narc guy who used to be my colleague and all of a sudden hoovered me to inform me he was freshly divorced (and auditing for IPPS I believe). He started sending me messages on messenger (which I use to avoid giving my phone number) with questions. Every time I answered the question, he left me on “read” and ignored me for a few weeks. He was trying to assert his control over me while also being very rude. He’s blocked now. Block that bitch you unfriended so that there’s no opportunity to get a friend request from that person again. It will also seem nicer because there’s no way to find out you unfriended her since being blocked you are invisible to her. I’m gonna be very honest about how negatively Facebook affected me. It is embarrassing but I believe it could help others that may identify with the same reaction I had to narc influence. HG explained to me my highest narcissistic traits are Jelousy/Envy and Vanity. You can imagine how much my ET spiraled every time narc-hole triangulated me on Facebook (Jelousy) or bragged about an achievement that he lied about (Envy, coupled with my empathic trait of Justice). In addition, because of my entanglement with a somatic, my Vanity went bananas and I was frantically posting pictures of myself like there was no tomorrow: in a bikini, on the beach, in a club… just to let him see how cute I am and how wonderful my life is. This is actually the same sorry behavior he exhibits on social media and I was picking on it! I remember now and I wanna die of shame. I became a complete IDIOTIC social media shallow rabbit. After I shut it down, not only did I stop caring about somatic narc, but I noticed I stopped caring about any external validation. I turned inward taking back on my long forgotten meditation routine, which I practice daily now. I also noticed I don’t get triggered as much about people’s different opinions while before I was a firecracker on any thread about social injustice. I respect the use of social media by whoever wants it in their lives, but I’m glad it is not part of mine anymore.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            That is a great way to explain social media – that it amplifies and exploits ones traits and can cause people to act uncharacteristically. Very honest and admirable of you to offer up your own experience as warning (and likely confirmation of same) to others.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you NA. I had to take a humility pill to let it out but I am happy to be able to detach now and see through my behavior.

          3. Empath007 says:

            Hear ! Hear ! I shut all my social media down about 5 months ago and it was for very similar reasons Sweetest – so I really appreciate this post I can relate too.

            In my case – I’ve recently lost weight – and at the risk of sounding shallow – my body looks stunning 🙌🏻 Anyhow … I don’t have my narc on my social media but I do have his friends, and suddenly I found myself craving everyone’s validation and admittely – really hoping the news of my killer body, fun adventures etc would get back to the narc.

            But then I thought – Doesn’t this still make me under his trap ? His “friends” are certianly not my friends, likely all they are doing behind my back is tearing me down and making up some viscous rumours to tear down my happiness. People do that – they are so fake. I realized these people do not care about me. And I in turn, should not care about what the narc thinks of my life.

            He’s miserable. With a miserable existence. And any happiness of mine – he will always tear it apart.

            So, I’ve been off social media for a few months as I said. And it feels good. My life is my business and no one else’s. And while external validation can feel amazing. I don’t need it on that kind of platform.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Empath007, thanks for sharing your experience, I completely understand how you felt. Congratulations on that look change that has contributed to your wellbeing and reaffirmation. Of course you are right for wanting to show it off, and to receive admiration for it. But like you said, not chasing the narc’s reaction to get him back/to get back at him. Good job!!!

          5. Wendy says:

            SP, this is something I would do as well. And I’m not proud of it either. I also new it was time to shut it down when I would have my Saturday night glasses of Prosecco and then start posting to the world about any and everything! Sappy songs, and just multiple stupid comments on things that I would normally not even care to comment about. Talking to people I haven’t spoken to in years. Lol. It can be it’s own addiction and for me I would cringe at some of my comments the next day! Get a few drinks in me and I’m an open book! Not good. 😂🥂

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Wendy, your comment made me giggle because I did the same minus the Prosecco, which you could substitute with other wine selections but with same effects. I still drink wine but at least the whole world doesn’t need to notice.

  10. Joa says:

    This is my normal state. This is what I have been for as long as I can remember, this is what I am and I will probably be. Regardless of whether I am alone or with someone in a very close relationship. I can feel it always on my back (only moments allow me to forget). Sometimes I don’t like it, but I can’t live without it 🙂

    I like laughter, buzz and people. I like to “touch” people. I like to make them happy.
    But I also need solitude, otherwise I am suffocating. This is my asylum. This is my rest.

    My sister is like a “hen” that has to incubate everyone under its wings. It’s cute 🙂
    She had never been able to stay home alone. To this day, he cannot. He has to turn on the radio or TV.

    I am quite the opposite. I liked the times when I was alone as a child. I was never bored. I also like silence.

    My daughter is just like me. Sometimes she is angry when I come home from work early! I understand it perfectly 🙂

    But “my” narcissist in crisis had a huge problem with loneliness – or so successfully pretended. I heals his loneliness.

    And he went on, completely different person 🙂

    I will not be surprised if I get a remarriage notice soon, with a date and time, but without the ceremony venue – that’s what my first narcissist did (+ phone the day before, if I decide to be with him, then he will cancel the wedding because he “loves” only me , pfff).
    These dramatic behaviors are so funny sometimes.

    My stepfather already has 5 wife. Record holder 😀

    Narcissists fear loneliness. They despair or anger at the thought of her.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:


      I experience loneliness very rarely. I am more your introspective melancholic! I was an only child too, I am used to being on my own. I too can’t be surrounded by people all of the time. Just most of the time! Alone time for me is a necessity not a luxury. I think the interactions with the online narcissist made me feel more lonely than I had ever felt. The feeling that for once someone really understood me, almost. Always almost.

      I disagree that your narcissist was lonely. Your narcissist was low on fuel. If he expressed loneliness it was either a manipulation to gather fuel, or it was a mislabelling of that feeling of emptiness that becomes more apparent as fuel levels drop. To express and understand loneliness requires self reflection. The narcissist isn’t equipped to self reflect. It implies looking backwards instead of forwards which would lead to inaction and prevent the acquisition of fuel. Loneliness also implies a degree of accountability for why it exists. The narcissism doesn’t allow for accountability in any form.

      Loneliness is the preserve of the empath. You looked at him and from your empathic perspective you came up with ‘lonely’. The Addiction plays on it. The trait of heal fix lights up and you try to fix the loneliness. As you do he gets his fuel and your addiction is fed through the interaction and through exercising your empathy.

      It’s a messed up transaction. We provide what they need and when we do we feel better! Smoke and mirrors, all the way.

      HG made a video about the self reflecting narcissist. I listened to it again the other night walking Ralph (my dog). I finished it and played it again and then again. It dawned on me all of a sudden that if a person cannot self reflect, this links in to a whole host of emotions that the narcissist truly doesn’t experience and it is the foundation for many of their behaviours.

      I love the way HG sounds in this video. Utterly convinced of what he is saying. It reminds me of the certainty I heard through the fog when I listened to the Addiction Triple Package. It was also another light bulb moment in my understanding.

      We overlay so many of our beautiful emotions onto the narcissist, confusing them as theirs. They aren’t. In many ways, narcissists are far far less complicated to understand than we are. Fuel. Control. Fury when they don’t get them. A sense of power and existence when they do.

      Christ that sounds harsh.

      I’ll attach the link to the video in case anyone wants to re listen.


      1. Joa says:

        TS, I like reading what you write so much. I guess you look a lot like me.

        Yes, my loneliness is more of a melancholy. She doesn’t bother me too much, I like her, that’s me. I have to run away from excess stimuli. I worry about all my friends’ problems, sometimes they cut me off my feet. People sense it, and almost unknown or strangers come to me. I hear everyone, but it is in me.
        Selfishly, I have to shut down. Fall into your own “dream” for a while. Just me.

        Happy stimuli also require rest. When you fly under the clouds, you get tired 🙂

        Yes, he had a fuel crisis. He was pretending to be a poor boy. As soon as it filled up and settled the financial affairs between us (he thinks he was done with them, but I’m preparing a surprise), he moved on.

        “Loneliness is the domain of empathy.” O mother, may it be so !!! I look at my daughter with anxiety all the time. Loneliness is her middle name.

        Although he is also a definite introvert.

        The most important thing is that she should be good and wise, and at least a little happy.

        Thank you for your response. I agree in 100%. You write it much better than I did

        Ok, maybe I’ll convince myself of these audio files, I’ll try it tonight 🙂

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Thank you, I’m glad you find my comments interesting / helpful. I agree we are very similar in the way we look at things. I kind of like my melancholic side. I think it’s not a desire to feel melancholy as such. With me, it’s a desire to have an in depth conversation. Small talk bores me, I want to know a person’s life story, I want to communicate on a meaningful level. If I don’t get this depth of conversation then I will actively seek some form of depth in the music I listen to. I feel through the music.

          Nose down normals, that’s how HG describes them. I agree, they so often task and don’t feel. If they do feel, many don’t communicate it. Others are just desperate for someone to listen, take the time to understand. I think that’s why empaths are sought out by strangers. We empathise automatically, for once the person feels understood. It does take energy to empathise on that level and we do take those emotions within ourselves. We all have a limit, this is where the need for alone time comes in. To rest in our own world again whilst the emotions subside a little. I think I crave what actually drains me in many ways.

          This is where narcissists and empaths appear similar. Both put emotions first and foremost in their interactions. The narcissist has to, it’s where the fuel comes from. He seeks to draw the emotion from the empath and projects emotions that the empath thinks she recognises. They seem similar. The empath believes she is getting the emotional content she needs whilst the narcissist slowly drains her down.

          Two opposite ends of the spectrum both trading in emotion. At the Royal Bank of Narcdom the narcissist always withdraws and the empath always deposits.

          I think the empath can feel lonely. If I do feel loneliness it’s down to the fact that whilst I can empathise and understand others, I often feel that others cannot empathise with me. I think we operate on a different frequency to the normals. In this sense I can feel lonely. I have largely given up trying to communicate my innermost thoughts and feelings so I tend not to think about it too much. It’s one of the reasons I love the blog though. There are others, like me, and they do understand me, sometimes better than I understand myself.

          Perhaps your daughter feels similarly. She takes in so much information to the point of overload and perhaps has not yet learned what to do with it all?

          “When you fly under the clouds you get tired.” I loved that. So few people ever look up. They look down, they look forward, very few people ever look up at the sky.


          1. Joa says:

            TS, yes, I am also always looking for deeper conversations and relationships.

            I find it especially in nature, as well as in music, painting, literature and poetry. Peace, understanding, happiness, energy, feeling that I am a part, a drop of this world, that I belong to it.

            Also, I don’t convey all my thoughts and feelings, although too much flows out of me anyway. I don’t want to be considered hyper or too weird. Most see me as just walking my own ways.

            I am lucky that there are people close to me who understand me well. They are similar – each with a different aspect of my personality. My sister and two friends. We understand each other in the blink of an eye 🙂
            But … I am careful not to burden them too much. I dose my interior gradually. I take the same.

            They don’t overwhelm compulsively like a narcissist. Or at least not all the time.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            For you it’s your sisters who fully understand you, for me it’s my dad. I can walk in and he reads me instantly.
            I remember my parents coming to see me in the US, I was probably at my lowest ebb at that point. My mum was oblivious, I’m good at concealing how I feel. I remember flying into a rage one day. I can’t remember what set me off. It’s extremely rare for me to lose my temper but when I go, I really go up. I can feel the anger coming off me in waves. My mum shrank back, unsure what to do. My dad ignored the rage, walked across the room and drew me in to his chest. I was so angry I pushed back against him with my hand, he just held me tighter. A minute or so later I was sobbing into his chest. Anyone else would have been distracted by the display of rage. Not him. He knew it was sadness and frustration. I’m similar to you, I try very hard not to burden him, if he gets me on my own though, he knows.

            He’s the only one that does properly know me I think. He’s an empath without any doubt. Other than him I know only one other empath. The rest of my friends and family are normals and several towards the narcissistic end of normal.

            Normals really don’t see the world the way I do. For example, Biden’s unforgivable f**k up with Afghanistan. That’s really upsetting me. So much for the whispering, joking, woke pandering Mr Nice Guy then. I want to punch him in the face. I can’t stand to look at his sly, self righteous, hypocritical mush. If there was ever any doubt of his narc credentials they are there for the world to see now! I can barely read the news. Incredibly upsetting footage. The utter desperation of all those people. All those women who thought they had a future….

            I commented to various friends about how catastrophic Biden’s decision was. How vile his comments were, the blame shifting, the sheer audacity of his statement to the press. Nothing, they don’t really care because it doesn’t affect them. I find their tunnel vision incredibly frustrating. I find it difficult to understand how it is that this crisis isn’t first and foremost in their minds. These are the times when I think empaths have it worse. Most of the time I love my empathic perspective,at the moment, I’d like to switch off or at least turn it down.

            I hope HG does a piece about Biden. I hope it’s damning. I hope HG takes him apart.

            Thanks for listening. Xx

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, there aren’t too many people not taking Biden apart at the moment … it’s becoming harder to shore up this Presidency, and dare I say the Vice-Presidency as well. Kamala has been totally hands off in terms of this debacle (she doesn’t seem to want to get her hands dirty at all), and being a female VP you’d like to think she’d have something to say about the desperate situation regarding women under the new regime in Afghanistan.

            It’s not looking good to the rest of the world – enemies are licking their lips while the Taliban celebrate – and I don’t know who’s directing the puppet show at the moment, but Joe, and frankly the rest of his government, appear to give zero ***ks about the Afghans or their own people still stranded there. Andrew Neil wrote a piece in the Daily Mail which seems to break Biden down into the tiny pieces of his narcissism:

            “Much of his address to the U.S. on Monday was Orwellian. In his classic novel 1984, set in a totalitarian dystopia, George Orwell created a Ministry of Peace which waged war, a Ministry of Truth which peddled lies, a Ministry of Love which tortured dissidents and a Ministry of Plenty which oversaw starvation.

            Biden matched all of that and more with his own defiant doublethink, involving distortions, the rewriting of history, and nonsense and untruths that even Trump would struggle to rival.

            His abject surrender to the Taliban was dressed up as political reality and common sense. His scuttle from Kabul, still ongoing, was depicted as geopolitical wisdom and a refocusing of U.S. priorities.

            Any mistakes or problems were the fault of others, from Trump to the Afghan army.

            But make no mistake: the person overwhelmingly responsible for the appalling scenes currently unfolding on our TV screens is the man sitting in the Oval Office.”

            Perhaps a few more people will get Biden’s number now, too.

            Couldn’t agree with you more about HG giving some attention to this.

            Hope you feel heard <3

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            Thank you for answering xx

            I saw the article too. I really like Andrew Neil. He talks sense and has the ability to dissect unemotionally whilst being sensitive to the topic he’s dealing with. To me he comes across as both highly intelligent and genuine. It was an excellent article.

            Biden just digs himself in deeper. I thought his lack of empathy was blatant in response to the comment about those horrific images of desperate Afghans falling from planes. “That was four, five days ago!” What a petulant little child. Proof, if any were needed, that the President of the United States really doesn’t know what day it is!

            At least his legacy is screwed.


          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, petulant child is right, sadly. His deflection on the desperate plane scenario was completely childish and disgusting. Even cognitive empathy was completely lacking. All of this now amounting to cracks in a very brittle facade. The legacy has been flushed down the toilet about a unceremoniously as it could be and I don’t know who is going to pick up the pieces, but I do think the world is going to pay a price for his incompetence. Certainly the people of Afghanistan, and especially the women.

            I try to temper the bad faith of politicians with an appreciation of people who are willing to speak openly and honestly about the same. Glad you had your say xox

          6. MP says:

            LET, I cannot find the spot that I wanted to reply to you to.
            Regarding the Afghan army, I have actually seen many Afghans being so offended that Biden blamed their soldiers for abandoning their arms. The Afghans relied heavily on the US for logistical support and intelligence so when the US abandoned their bases, the Afghans lost all of that and it made it impossible for them to win. Afghans on social media get asked why their soldiers didn’t fight for their country and it makes them so upset because it isn’t true. Afghan soldiers are the largest number of people that died in Afghanistan, more than American soldiers or any other soldiers because they fought for their country. So the claim that they don’t fight for their country was like a Narcissist’s smearing them as coward which is very hurtful for any ethnicity or country to be accused of.

            Also many tactical errors were made regarding the pull out. The former administration planned the pull out to be completed in May 1 which means the phases of evacuation would start during the winter which is not the fighting season for the Talibans. Fighting season starts in April so when Biden announced on last April that the US would pull out, the fighting season was just starting and complete the pull out in August, it gave the Taliban enough time to fight and prepare for the takeover. According to some retired military officers, it was also a huge mistake to give up the bases and only rely on Kabul which only have limited runway which made it slower to evacuate and also the area being at the center of Kabul risks it from being overrun by refugees.

            So I agree with you that the buck stops at the one in power and there are many valid questions that needed to be answered. However did you see his reaction when the correspondent went after him and he looked down for a long time. I thought that was very MR move. Also the cliche of the buck stops with me but it never really stops because he even blames the Afghan military who had no choice but to abandon their weapons and blend in the public to pretend they were not soldiers because if the Tban caught them after the Tban Gaona control of the country, it’s not just them that would be executed but also their children, parents and siblings.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            MP, I appreciate you sharing more of your thoughts on this and it is sad to hear how the Afghan military have also been impacted in the situation. Blame shifting is a thing with narcissists as we know, and sadly it’s caused many people to ask the same question. Thankfully, it’s been clarified through the press, and the Afghan army to a large extent has been exonerated. Their country is carrying a large enough burden as it is right now. I dread to think of these people’s circumstance at the moment, so all we can do is hope and pray they are able to find a way to survive.

          8. MP says:

            You’re welcome LET and thank you for reading too.

          9. MP says:

            LET, I forgot to add, the Afghans are rightfully upset at many things but they also said that he was wrong when he said that Afghanistan has never been united in history because they said they were actually united before Russia invaded. They had a monarchy. Also they said they are Afghans, not Afghanis. Afghani is their currency and it is considered offensive when they are called Afghanis. But yes, I have interacted with a lot of Afghan Americans this past week and the pain that they are feeling is something that we cannot imagine. Their people are being hunted down and they feel that the world doesn’t care. Also the cognitive dissonance of being gaslighted during press conferences where the government says they still accept Afghan interpreters when the truth is they have closed the gates on anyone that is not US citizens unless they have a strong connection inside. It is almost as if our government is a big narcissist abusing their people.

          10. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you again, MP, for adding more understanding from an Afghan perspective. I also appreciate the heads up about using the term “Afghani” … there is a lot to know and I really appreciate the added insight.

          11. Joa says:


            Ooooh! You can’t even imagine how touched I was by the description of the situation with your dad. I understand it so much. He did a wonderful thing. It is a release of emotions, sobbing, crying …
            I’ve always missed it – such a father. Such a person at all.

            For many years I did a similar thing with my daughter 😊 Later we laughed that I hug her using force 😊
            Although nowadays it is getting more and more difficult. Teenager. It is heavily armored. She put up a high wall and built a moat. I am not able to break through these barbed wire. Only sometimes he lowers the drawbridge 😊 Eh …

            Sometimes I also can’t exclude myself from a case. Obsessively sinking into sadness, pain, fear that some person or group of people must have felt. Usually, I explain to myself that I am not able to save the whole world and all I can do is make this piece of the world around me more beautiful.

            I try not to blame people, each of whom is preoccupied with their own problems. Rather, delicately make people aware, not tire, interest, intertwine, show a different view, interest. Drop drills rock. Fortunately, my profession helps me – I reach a large number of recipients.

            My sister is a real “terrorist” of spreading good, joint actions, fundraising ha ha ha 😊 Sometimes her radical methods bring spectacular results, she can involve prominent people, but sometimes her “terrorism” of good brings the opposite effect. Unfortunately, her “aggression” in helping brings her many enemies.

      2. Violetta says:

        That mid-range apology is dead-on what Teegan-Taygan said!

        Such fun when you can make the connections between different threads.

  11. A Victor says:

    What is the antidote to lonliness? I do not have it with respect to the amount of busyness I choose or the number of people that love me and that I feel connected to. it is rather the heart lonliness of wishing to share my lifeas a whole with another, one special person. It is where I see my tiny bit of Love Devotee show up, I can’t reject that part of me so must find a way to deal with it while accepting it.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      AV, some people can feel lonely even when in the company of others. For example, somebody who cannot be part of conversations because either, a) they do not understand the subject of discussion; b) are ‘shut off’ into their own world with their thoughts / emotions, maybe because they are hurting; c) not being ‘understood’ by those nearby (ie not on the same ‘wave-length’), or d) being ‘isolated’ by others in the vicinity because of a disability, or because you are ‘different’. There are lots of ways someone can be ‘lonely’ in a room, even if it is with family. What I have said here has no connection to ‘heart loneliness’ as you suggested in your comment.

      Sometimes, there is no ‘antidote’, at all. It can be like this for narcissists, even psychopaths and maybe others who have ‘conditions’ as such. Hence, for some people, they have a need to be understood, accepted and be able to fit in, like I have experienced in my life. Sometimes, they cannot ‘speak out’ for fear of judgement and / or rejection by those who lack knowledge about the human psyche (understanding others). Sometimes it is better to see the person as who they are, rather than always ‘what’ they are and that can / may alleviate some of the ‘loneliness’ others can feel / think.

      I know from personal experience, so I can ‘apply’ that and understand ‘loneliness’. Even then, this is not necessarily including experiences to narcissists of my past.

      1. A Victor says:

        Asp Emp, yes, I have experienced other forms of loneliness, as you say. That is different, temporary, not something I linger on, fitting in, being heard etc aren’t huge drivers for me. The heart loneliness is more like a constant, I go back to the void, I think it is about that. And you know, the fact that I feel very little loneliness besides this, I think I am just being selfish, the other things can be quite fulfilling, as in I don’t “need” this type of loneliness filled. So, I go back and forth on my willingness to acknowledge my desire for it and my guilt over wanting it fulfilled. You know, it just is so unfair to never have a solid relationship, but then, how many people never have anyone, no children, nothing? So then, guilt. Also, better this loneliness than that which I had while married to my ex, that was the worst. Hence the reason I have not pursued anything to fill this desire since he left. Thank you for your thoughts, always thought provoking, a good thing. 🙂

        1. A Victor says:

          Asp Emp, do you experience loneliness? You seem so content, happy even. I don’t know you in real life of course, but here that is how you seem. And like you have chosen your life and it is just how you want it to be. I am so impressed by that. I hope to be that way at some point, have it all together.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            AV, yes, I do experience loneliness as I explained in my previous comment. Yes, I am ‘free’ of the shackles of the past and that is where my mindset is, in relation to my emotions too (hence your words ‘content / happy’). Yes, we don’t know each other in person but I would say that we do know each other in real life – on this blog. I have achieved what I wanted to aim for by coming to KTN site, to understand myself the way I do today. It had ‘bugged’ me for so many years. It is that ‘clarity’ that I needed and no-one I know prior coming here has even begun to ‘touch’ the surface of what I was ‘carrying’ all these years. There is one female friend who ‘got’ me yet we live too far apart to talk in person and she had her own narcissist at the time. She understood me. Yet both our backgrounds (living at home) are completely different.

            There is a difference in ‘planning ahead’ – aiming to reach the ‘clarity’ RE understanding narcissism and planning the future – two different ‘aspects’. I have achieved the first part. I am not stressing myself in relation to the second part, life is too short to have that kind of ‘stress’. Just live it. Take each day as it comes.

            You will be at this ‘point’ yourself. You will know when it does.

          2. A Victor says:

            Ah, Asp Emp, I did miss your loneliness in your initial comment, rereading I see it, I apologize. Sometimes if I don’t fully follow, I miss things and I think that was what happened. Also, I get stuck sometimes, like at “Sometimes, there is no ‘antidote’, at all.”, because I don’t want to face it. Silly, but I do make a very good ostrich. Anyway, your second comment clarified for me and I agree, a day at a time is a good policy. The clarity on narcissism is coming along, I can’t rush planning, you are correct. Thanks!!

          3. Asp Emp says:

            AV, giggling at the choice words….”but I do make a very good ostrich”. Thank you for understanding my original comment. Ostrich, laughing…..it happens to us all at some point, AV 😉

    2. Eternity says:

      A Victor, same here . I am pretty much busy every weekend when I don’t work always making plans,but I enjoy my alone time . My Love Devotee is there too. Who wouldn’t want to have a romantic evening with someone special.

      1. A Victor says:

        Yes Eternity, I am as busy as I wish to be, I also enjoy a lot of alone time. If I am ever with another romantic partner he will have to allow for that without whining. Yes, a nice romantic evening would be very nice.

        1. Eternity says:

          A Victor defintely.We all need alone time. I enjoy my peace especially after leaving my ex husband I do what I want without being questioned where did you? Who are you with? What are you wearing ? Why are you taking to him? Reading a book again?
          Who needs that A Victor. A partner needs to respect and vice versa

        2. Asp Emp says:

          AV, I read you comment and then….seeing your words “without whining”….I started laughing……

          1. A Victor says:

            Haha, Asp Emp, I was laughing and rolling my eyes when i wrote it! They can be babies you know!

  12. Empath007 says:

    It’s amazing what a narcissist can accomplish.

    I’m fairly certain a dear loved one of mine is being framed and about to be thrown into the psyc ward due to a narcissist.

    It’s absolutely hurrendous to watch how they can devour people – and destroy their lives.

    1. A Victor says:

      Wow Empath007, I am so sorry to hear about your relative! My daughter and I were just talking about that a couple of days ago, how horrible that would be, it’s one of my biggest nightmares! Yes, narcissists are horrible. I hope it turns out okay for your person.

    2. Eternity says:

      Empath 007, OMG, now that is absolutely unacceptable. I can’t believe how they ruin people’s lives. They turn things around and make it sound like the other person is crazy. I have been there. My ex told me I needed help and to go see a Dr. Because I used to lash out all of the time and throw things at him. It wasn’t because I was crazy it was all because of him. I pray that your friend will be ok.

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