HG´s Christmas Captives – Ebenezer Scrooge

Bring forth the next of my captives and into the dock in the Ultra High Court Of Justice, comes someone who will be familiar to you all, Ebenezer Scrooge. Let’s have his summary of information and then your arguments and votes!

EBENEZER SCROOGE – SUMMARY OF INFORMATION

Money lender

Hater of Christmas

Hoarder of wealth and exploiter of the poor

Lonely child sent to boarding school

Replaced apparent lost love with money

Expresses apparent concern for the health of a sickly Tiny Tim

Asks if there are “no prisons, no workhouses” to address the unfortunate in society

Weeps over vision of own unkempt and unvisited grave

Mends his ways (apparently) to become a generous and kind soul

Favoured phrase “Bah humbug!”

Mean spirited and harsh employer

Use of large turkey to bribe Cratchitt´s family

What is Ebenezer Scrooge?

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36 thoughts on “HG´s Christmas Captives – Ebenezer Scrooge

  1. mollyb5 says:

    HG …he brought them a goose !

  2. Joa says:

    Narcissistic.
    Loneliness and advanced age make him reflect on his life. It is possible, that he has had a stroke. This wonderful organ, in place of the lost areas of gray matter, activated the work of neurons and hitherto little used fragments.

    The radical change is astonishing and dazzling.

    PS For some people, this may be a controversial entry. But this character reminds me of a specific person in my family whose personality change after a stroke (on the plus side) is just so amazing.

  3. BC30 says:

    I think I voted narcissistic. I should have commented at the time.

  4. Sweetest Perfection says:

    I am missing in this list of captives the European countries under Christmas restrictions! Merry Christmas from Omicronland! It’s been interesting to witness my narcissist dad’s lack of boundaries and entitlement against all sorts of logical reasoning to take cautionary measures in the alarming situation. He has adopted the Guns’N’Roses modus vivendi: “leave and let die.”

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      ***I am team Rudolph, no matter what.

    2. Sweetest Perfection says:

      *Live! Autocorrect BS

  5. Asp Emp says:

    https://narcsite.com/2019/12/22/hgs-christmas-captives-ebenezer-scrooge/#comment-325738

    I’d be inclined to somewhat agree that he was a co-dependent empath that had high level of narcissistic behaviours due to eroded empathy and external stressors throughout life – only to be ‘shown’ via the ghosts of the past what would / could happen if he did not make some changes to his way of ‘thinking’ after a life-time of “thinking ‘ feeling” the same way.

    Very similar to my own life ‘journey’ but not quite the same – only through HG’s work and KTN blog was I able to ‘re-train’ the way I thought / felt about myself and the past, to understand my own experiences and what I ‘became’ to what I am now.

    1. Wendy says:

      Asp Emp, when I read your response part of it struck a very strong cord in me and made me think OMG, is this what I am becoming?! “a co-dependent empath that has high levels of narcissistic behaviours due to eroded empathy and external stressors throughout life.” I feel like that just described me!

      Dear Lord I do not want to be that! I have a-lot of work to do on myself. I feel that over time I have lost so much patience with people and things in general and I know it’s due to many of the external stressors in my life for the most part. I feel like my narcissistic traits are at a very high level these days and F bombs seem to be my new favorite expression.

      I need to turn this boat around fast!

      Thanks for making me think about this.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Hi Wendy, thank you for your response. Please be assured that if it sounds like you may be experiencing similar (at present) – it is perfectly normal and acceptable. The fact you are on this blog shows that you are in the right place to understand more about yourself and what makes you ‘tick off’ (external stressors). Maybe ask yourself why are your narcissistic traits at a high level (at present), if it is anger at your (past or present) narcissist(s), that is understandable. It does take time to teach your mind to ‘control’ your emotions more calmly – believe me, I know and I am speaking from experience 😉 You do not need to turn it around fast, just allow yourself to process it and over time, it does lessen and reduce in severity. After being here 18 months, I now find myself not getting too ‘irate’ but I will and still say Fk U, even out loud in a supermarket 😉 They cannot throw you out if you have “undiagnosed” Tourettes 😉

        Take your time, you are simply doing ‘self-therapy’ and nobody can treat you any differently because of that. The fact you are recognising some of these factors and also taking them on board for yourself, that is a key thing. Take pride and praise yourself for that 🙂

  6. Witch says:

    alright…. Who are the 2 who voted empath, out yourselves, I’ll put you in the dungeon myself

    1. A Victor says:

      Hahaha, that’s great!!

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Witch, laughing……. perspectives 🙂 I didn’t vote but I’ll be happy to carry out my punishment in the dungeon 😉

    3. njfilly says:

      I just voted empath.

      1. Witch says:

        @njfilly
        Are you drunk already?

    4. changed4evermore says:

      😆

  7. lickemtomorrow says:

    Ah, Ebeneezer … he really is a mean old fool, at least to begin with.

    Ebeneezer had his heart broken. He sought to improve his station in life, but in doing so lost his one true love as he allowed this desire to overtake all others. This unfortunate event occurred at Christmas. The date, forever tainted by that blow, caused him to declare “Bah, humbug” to all the festivities and joviality of Christmas. Up to the point where the story begins, he hasn’t taken responsibility for the part he played in his own misfortune and so solidifies his negative mindset around one of the most celebrated days of the year.

    This lack of accountability leads me to think Scrooge is narcissistic in nature. He was sent to boarding school at a young age and not brought home for the holidays. How does any child react to that? Likely by denying the occasion has any special meaning in an attempt to stem the flow of his own disappointment. Scrooge decided early on he would not let Christmas get to him. It’s a painful time, full of painful memories. Did that lack of control environment lead to him becoming a narcissist?

    His persona has developed a hard shell of protection which he won’t let anyone break through. In fact, he extends this hardness to others by denying them even though he could generously provide for some of their needs. Also narcissistic, as he’s not just not seeing them in a nose to the ground ‘normal’ fashion, but deliberately denying them in a superior and haughty fashion. Others are the authors of their own misfortune. It’s not Scrooge’s job to help them or take pity on them. The narcissist could assume a kindness here in order to gain fuel from grateful recipients, but Scrooge is not interested in positive fuel. Is he interested in negative fuel?

    His actions are very negative, but I believe that relates to his past hurt and a need to cut himself off from feeling and emotion. He is wounded, and while he is narcissistic due to the circumstances he achieves the one thing not possible for a narcissist to achieve … Redemption.

    Yes, the fearful ghosts who visit him on Christmas eve are sent to test him, to see if he really is a narcissist with no hope of redemption, or if he is a badly wounded soul in need of an urgent wake up call. Fortunately, the narcissistic element of his nature has not completely taken him over and he is able to respond to the beauty, sadness and horrors that he is shown.

    Ebeneezer wakes up to a new day on Christmas Day, one that has awakened his less narcissistic nature and enabled him to join with others in a meaningful way.

    Narcissistic, but not narcissist, in my view. All the hallmarks of a narc, without the lack of Redemption <3

    1. A Victor says:

      Thank you LET, I agree.

      1. Violetta says:

        I agree also.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      LET, your ‘keywords’ that resonated with me are “The date, forever tainted by that blow”- I felt similar RE: loss of my father (2 weeks before Xmas Day). It was not a conscious thought on my part not to feel “excited” about xmas, it was my instinctive ‘pain’ and it was a few years ago when I realised why I did not put up decorations until after the ‘anniversary’. Nobody really asked me why, if they had done so, I would have ‘realised’ a lot sooner.

      I have never been a ‘haughty’ person, but, yes, disassociation ‘played’ a big part of my life. Keeping the pain ‘buried’ without having the tools (support) to assist me to ‘face’ it. With the Aspergers, it compounded the difficulties.

      It could be suggested that I was highly narcissistic as a result, only to understand this in the last year, now consciously aware of it. I ‘owed’ it to myself and for my father’s memory to understand, to put it to bed so to speak.

      I never ‘recovered’ because of boarding school ‘intervention’ (got in the way) – at the same time a blessing to be away from muvver.

      My heart attack was like the ‘wake-up call’ (to the ghosts in the story of Scrooge). It was then I was consciously aware of my ‘darkness’ but still could not explain it. Now I can.

      It was good to read your words here, thank you LET 🙂

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        AspEmp, my heart goes out to you in the context of your father’s death and it being so close to Christmas. I imagine it did taint the occasion for you in many ways, and perhaps create a bittersweet moment all these years on as the two occasions continue to combine. I honestly would be surprised if people questioned you about when you put your Christmas decorations up or took them down, probably because I’m not very fastidious about these things, although I don’t doubt it’s a tradition for many to keep it to a certain date. Either way, them not asking also gave you the option not to have to explain, which can be a gift in itself. On the other hand, sometimes we need someone to ask so that we can reach into those places we’d rather not go in order to explore our grief and heartache. It sounds like you’ve had the opportunity to do that now, and I’m very glad <3 Acknowledging it as a painful moment and memory at least washes it a little clean so you can observe it more closely. I hope my words don't upset you further xox

        I can imagine Asperger's complicates matters for you when it comes to other people's perceptions, and frankly I would leave them to deal with that. But the combination of having to dissociate from some very painful experience along with the unique challenges of Asperger's must have made it a great deal harder to communicate your experience and for others to understand. The necessary supports not being in place always seems damning to me, and I can only say thank God times have changed. At least we can give all these elements some recognition now which they wouldn't have had before.

        You did owe it to yourself and your father's memory to finally untangle those knots and understand how you were afflicted and also the affect that had on you. We know we all have narcissistic traits, they can become more prominent at certain times, and having an understanding of how emotional thinking impacts on them makes us all more human and less judgmental of ourselves. Now we can put, what I would term, a 'right judgment' on these things, which takes into account the full measure of our humanity … in other words, the good, the bad, and the ugly. An element of acceptance can then be applied and we don't have to accuse ourselves any more or accept the accusations of others. We can always improve, of course, but that can never happen without the insight we are gaining here.

        Boarding school seems to have had both positive and negative elements in your experience, AspEmp. I do think your father aimed to rescue you by creating that option, and removing you from possible supports would not have been his intention, but an unfortunate consequence of choosing the lesser of two evils I imagine from his perspective. Parent's have to make some very hard decisions for their children at times, and it often breaks our heart in the process to do so. It takes a lot of strength and courage to make difficult decisions. Your dad, no doubt, did his best <3

        It's interesting how you can compare your story to that of Scrooge as well, and thank you for sharing your thoughts around it. A sudden heart attack would be a wake up call to many people and sickness does challenge us to consider our lives, much like Scrooge was forced to do via his ghostly visitations. In that sense you could almost be grateful for the misfortune at times, though often that's only in hindsight. No one appreciates going through these traumas at the time they are happening. Fortunately for Scrooge, the only thing his trauma caused him to give up was his meanness and lack of charity while also granting him the grace to receive a much closer and more meaningful connection to others.

        At least that's my take on it all, AspEmp xox

        1. Asp Emp says:

          LET, thank you for your response. It means so much read your words. You do understand quite well. I am not in the least upset after reading what you had to say. To be honest, the loss of my father could have only been possible to accept and put to bed so to speak AFTER I had been able to ‘untaint’ myself from the narcissistic abuse from muvver. I think you can understand (and appreciate) that ‘concept’. Because her abuse towards me was she viewed it as my fault for being born, him dying etc ‘prevented’ me from moving on in the way I have been able to by being here. Even if I had explained that ‘theory’ to a therapist, they’d simply not understand, not in the same way as people on KTN can.

          I agree RE: your second paragraph. Thank you.

          “An element of acceptance can then be applied and we don’t have to accuse ourselves any more or accept the accusations of others” – absolutely. Well worded.

          “We can always improve, of course, but that can never happen without the insight we are gaining here” – absolutely. Again, well worded.

          Yes, my father made the best choices where I am concerned. The type of man he was is clearly apparent in his decision because he was fully aware that there were no other suitable schools other than boarding. He understood me really well and knew that I would have really struggled in mainstream school classes. He was a very wise man for his age.

          RE: your last paragraph, thank you. I will state that part of my ‘fury’ included ‘why me?’ when the heart went, no-one else in family had same issue. With the existence of KTN, I have been through a lot of ‘re-training’ my mind over many past issues, and also, strengthening my mindset in future interactions ie a trouble-some telecommunications company 😉 I don’t get all stressed out, nor too anxious, it’s more like a quiet ‘fk off and I am not tolerating your BS’. That’s the confidence because having the information to hand and smacking them with it works better 🙂 It’s still two middle-fingers at them too 😉

          Ah, thank you, LET, much appreciated xx

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            <3

            AspEmp, those layers are what we work our way through the longer we are here, in reference to needing to 'untaint' yourself from your mother's impact and that allowing you to go further in your journey of healing with respect to your father's death.

            More recently I've felt the loss of my father more acutely, simply because he was also ostracized from the rest of the family after his separation from my mother. Even though he had major issues and impacted my life in very negative ways, he never rejected me. Somewhat different to your father who showed you love and care, but the fact he would not reject me is still valid in my eyes. I miss that familial sense of acceptance.

            The "why me?" is very valid. I still haven't gotten beyond asking that question at times, but it's often answered in what I am eventually able to take out of those circumstances and that moment. It doesn't necessarily come easily or quickly, but the site makes it easier. Then the "why me" becomes a lot clearer. Of course, it doesn't alleviate all the heartache, but making sense of it helps to exonerate us in some ways where we have been blaming ourselves and gives us an opportunity to heal as we learn how to avoid becoming victims again.

            I can see how helpful the information here has been to you, and to us all, and how you're developing a quiet confidence with the ability to confront others – 'fk off and I'm not tolerating your bullshit' – maybe not so quiet, lol 😛

            I have to tell you, speaking of Christmas decorations, my middle daughter has been forced to take hers down earlier than she anticipated due to her Aspy b/f's issue with sensory overload … she loves Christmas and went mad decorating their house. I loved it! He hates it, but was tolerant in the run up to Christmas. Seems they both know when to compromise as necessary which is great since the wedding is planned for the end of this year <3 xox

          2. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for your response. What you say about your relationship with your father gives insights of you and your empathic ‘light’ that appears quite strongly within you even during times when your emotional empathy may be reduced. That, in my view, is one of the main things (even if it is the one and only thing) that attracts narcissists to you, via some form of ‘sixth’ sense (instinctive). That is why muvver treated me the way she did, despite all the shite in my life, no-one could ever destroy my ‘light’ because it is too powerful within me (like it was within my grandmother). Maybe narcissists are jealous of those who have that ‘light’ but do not know why they are jealous, hence their manipulations towards us.

            You said it to me that you can never stay mad for long (angry) in another thread.

            RE: “it doesn’t alleviate all the heartache” – that is true but it is a matter of changing the way you think about it in order to alleviate the emotions behind way you feel about it.

            The ‘why me’, to be honest, will always be ‘present’ but you can change how you approach it (think / feel), in order to ‘manage’ that ‘question’. Similar approach in learning to manage your ET and understand your LT around it.

            😉 about the not so quiet fk-yous. I may be ‘loud’ about it here via rants, but quiet about it when ‘dealing’ with BS from elsewhere 😉 Hence why I praise HG for providing this blog because he totally understands the need for the existence and the freedom of speech so to speak, it is apparent in his writings. He needs it as much as we do.

            RE: your daughter’s boyfriend, I can totally understand his perspective and also your daughter’s perspective. I think his Aspergers may be similar in severity to mine when it comes to decorations – almost like with a degree of repulsion – that is part of the sensory overload. I will not, I repeat, not, and absolutely refuse to hang up tinsel from every corner in the rooms of the house – fk that. I will only have the christmas tree decorated in one corner of one room – that, I can ‘tolerate’ and it is not ‘cluttering’ too much (ie a mess). I may put out another small tree somewhere else in the house. It’s to do with ‘obstruction’ and ‘ease’ on the eye. Some aspies may not even like the lights flashing. So, with their impending marriage (OMG, how wonderful that they are taking that route, I have no doubt it will be successful marriage too) – they can compromise by how much decorations to put where – maybe he can have a couple of rooms where there are no decorations, ie an ‘escape’ room of his own? It is not necessarily just about sensory overload, it could include an element of ‘what is the point?’, I would suggest that is possibly part of the aspie’s brain wiring. So, when it comes to planning the wedding, it may be worth making some considerations in relation to his aspergers? It may need to include some ‘escape breaks’ in between ie as an example, the reception and the meal? Wow, you must be so excited 🙂

            Thank you so much for talking, so good to read your thoughts / considerations 🙂

            Thank you, HG for moderating x

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, I think you’ve hit a nail on the head for me here in relation to my father, and as you describe it, the “light” within. I think the difference between my two parent’s and their relationship with me might relate specifically to this … while my father in some respects appreciated it (used it/me), my mother despised it and tried to crush it, or put the light out, so to speak. It’s probably why my feelings toward her remain so strong. It’s probably also pretty similar to how you experienced your mother’s treatment of you. I love the way you describe how she was not able to put that light out because it was too strong <3 Kudos to your Grandmother as well x

            And, yes, I did say elsewhere I could not stay angry for long, which no doubt has been part of my downfall when it comes to narcissists. I keep getting drawn back in because I am too forgiving, accepting, compassionate, etc. I think most empaths are like that, at least until we know better when it comes to the narcissist. There is also the element of rejection some of us suffer. We hunger for acceptance and will overlook many things in order to obtain that. It is much easier for the narcissist to ensare someone, and often with little effort, who needs their approval.

            Changing the way we think about things is also what is at the heart of the matter. Truer words could not be spoken. I'm going to have to take a little time to digest them for now x

            As I will also have to take a little time to digest your wisdom around the "why me?" question. It's one that haunts so many of us, and here we get the clarity to understand a great deal of what ails us in that sense. Managing our emotional thinking can be made easier, once we recognize it is emotional thinking which is preventing an element of logic from returning. Hurt requires time to overcome. Especially when it feels deliberate, and in many cases it has also been devastating. One thing that was clarified for me when I wrote my initial comment about Scrooge was his reluctance to also accept responsibility for his circumstances. I think at times the onus can also be on us to see where we went wrong, which would also be part of a logical response, and which can also free us from the need to blame others in certain circumstances. What that does is give us an element of control over the circumstances we may not feel we had before. This thought is quite specific, as in the example of Scrooge allowing his true love to get away because he put value on the wrong things, yet he could not reflect on his own responsibility in the circumstances. It is part of the empathic dilemma to have to consider these things which a narcissist obviously never does.

            I think the freedom of expression we have here is a true gift, and also the fact we can be supported and guided through that as necessary. HG is able to set us on the straight path when it comes to narcissism, as well as other empaths who understand our difficulties. I can see why you appreciate the site and HG so much 🙂 I know I would not be nearly as far along in my journey of awareness without HG's work, as well as the other empaths here <3

            OMG, AspEmp, I truly appreciate your thoughts and clarifications around my daughter's b/f also <3 She describes him as being more 'minimalist' which fits exactly with what you have said, so it's not hard to imagine how overwhelming an enthusiastic Christmas connoisseur could be! You and her b/f would totally get eachother in that sense, and I really appreciate your thoughts around 'escape' areas where an Aspy is more likely to be able to relax. I would never have thought of that for the wedding, and fortunately the beautiful Reception facility has multiple rooms/areas where it should be possible to make that happen xox

            I had to laugh a little when you mentioned that because her b/f also has a propensity to 'wander off' on occasions which can have people questioning where he is 😛 They'll be at a gathering and he will suddenly disappear and people will be asking my daughter where he's gone. She is not concerned, tells them he's probably just gone out for a drive (apparently he like to drive around sometimes to spot certain kinds of specific vehicles?) and leaves it at that. My eldest daughter on hearing this story said she would not tolerate that, which goes to show the difference between the two of them! My empathic daughter is a lot more flexible and makes me laugh with the stories she can tell. The eldest is much more regimented in accord with her narcissistic abilities to hold boundaries in a much stronger fashion. Horses for courses, I say. They're both unique and I wouldn't have them any other way xox

            PS: Thank you for your enthusiastic response to their nuptials 🙂 His proposal is a story for another day! x

          4. Asp Emp says:

            LET, you mentioned ‘rejection’, I think as Co-Dependents, it can be ‘felt’ more easily and so it ‘hurts’ more as a result. Possibly depending on other factors in the LOCE and individual’s personal experiences around it. Where you suggest that “Scrooge put value on the wrong things” – maybe view it as a way of avoiding the ‘hurt’ (emotional pain), a way of disassociating from the experiences that caused the initial deep ‘wound’ in the first place? That effectively “allowed his true love to get away” because it was easier for him to ‘permit’ that rather than ‘open’ himself up further on an emotional level? Maybe it was a ‘deflection’ of ‘relying’ on someone enough to trust them because of infant ‘trauma’ and / or ‘conditioning’? Or maybe he switches his emotional empathy to ‘suit’ the ‘circumstances’? (RE: HG’s Empathy Cake).

            I am aware I vary my empathy as ‘relevant’ because of ‘conditioning’ and also as a result of any LOCE I may be experiencing at any moment. I think the majority of people do it more instinctive based more than consciously aware. Having said that, maybe it is more linked to the characteristics of Aspergers?

            Thank you for sharing more of your daughter’s b/f’s actions – that gave me a smile because I can understand 🙂 The interest in cars, not surprising, that is to do with one of the ‘selectives’ and the ‘fixations’ (one of many) that people with Aspergers tend to have.

            The ‘disappearing’ is a prime example where people may not necessarily distinguish the difference between someone with Aspergers (who’d do that because it is a way of dealing with ‘overwhelming’ and / or sensory overload situations) and a narcissist applying the withdrawal of the assertion of control. To an outsider looking in, they may suggest that both ‘perceptions’ are the same thing but they are not – because they do not know either a) the individual personally, or b) recognise the characteristics of people with Aspergers and / or narcissism. Hence the importance to consider the effects of the environment at that present moment in time.

            Kudos to both of your daughters, and yourself, for being unique individuals that have (in my view) very good ‘channels’ of communication between yourselves.

            I am sure his proposal would have been unique in it’s own way because of the ability of an aspie mind. He sounds like a really lovely guy.

            Lovely to read more of your thoughts. Thank you for sharing 🙂 x

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, thank you for sharing more of your thoughts. Some of them have been invaluable to me lately <3

            A sense of rejection will haunt many people based on childhood experiences. This doesn't always have to involve a narcissist, but often will by the looks of things. Devaluation is par for the course, leading to a sense of rejection. The narcissist knows how to play this one nicely for their own benefit, making the empath dependent on them. The trauma bonding can begin at a very early age based on this understanding. A sense of rejection can be a very hard thing to overcome and primes us, I think, for further narcissistic relationships. It's possible for the element of rejection to exist in many dysfunctional family situations, but far more detrimental when being used by the narcissist as part of their arsenal of manipulation. Others might just be neglectful, having addiction or mental health issues, etc. With the narcissist you are being 'conditioned' for a lifetime of the same kind of devaluation and respite, trauma bonding extraordinaire.

            I appreciate your thoughts on Scrooge not wanting to open up the can of worms that is creating a deeper emotional connection or greater intimacy. It reminds me of HG's article "Attachment is the Seat of Misery". For a narcissist, it is indeed, as they have been unable to form that fundamental attachment which enables them to feel good about themselves and not need to lord it over everybody else. For someone narcissistic, in the manner I've described Scrooge, they will have created a protective layer which needs to be broken through, and no doubt there is a time and a place for that. Sometimes it can never be broken through. I'm glad you raised awareness of the difficulty some people have in terms of letting their guard down. You could be offered the world, but may not be capable of accepting such a precious gift.

            It's great you have also been able to clarify that difference with regard to a narcissist and someone with Asperger's in relation to said 'disappearing act' 🙂 Many people would not understand that sudden disappearance for what it is (i.e. need for escape) and assume an element of rudeness attached to it (e.g. narcissist's assertion of control). It also highlights the difference between my two daughters, the more empathic one being more flexible and accommodating in her thinking, making allowances and accepting the difficulties or differences of Asperger's, the less empathic, or more narcissistic, daughter holding boundaries of what she perceives as acceptable behaviour and an inability to be more flexible in her thinking around that. Having said that, she is the backbone of so many things as she provides the sense of certainty and security that is needed at times. She will be the one people go to for the solution to their problems, the other will be the one who provides the shoulder to cry on as means to put the world to rights again <3

            LOL, AspEmp, when it comes to the proposal, let's just say his Aspy mind couldn't cope with the uncertainty of the circumstances surrounding Covid and the upending of plans which he had made … maybe I will tell the story one day 😉 x

          6. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for your response. It is good to read that you find my thoughts help you.

            For a young child, rejection is pain that is learned but not understood why. We may learn how and who that ‘pain’ comes from so we condition / adopt avoidance ‘strategies’ but no matter how many ‘strategies’ we learned, the ‘goal posts’ were always moved to a new manipulation, sometimes, more harsh / difficult one to manoeuvre. The ‘hurts’ start to mount up and get further ‘swamped’ with already existing ‘hurts’.

            Similar to how a dog may be ‘conditioned’ through repeated cruelty. Some never recover, some do – I think that depends on who their ‘saviour’ is and how much empathy that person has. So, if a child is ‘rescued’ from an abusive LOCE, they have a better chance at ‘recovering’ through nurturing and therapy.

            I agree. “Others might just be neglectful” – it is possible with some people with non-narcissist, non-victim neurodiversities, especially those that have lack of, or less emotional (and possibly cognitive) empathy.

            Wow. Powerful. “You could be offered the world, but may not be capable of accepting such a precious gift”. These words summarised how I ‘felt’ for so long until I learned to understand that aspect about myself (through KTN), I know I can let my guard down – with the right people.

            RE: your daughters, thank you for sharing more on the dynamics of the two. You understand your daughters very well and it is heartening for me to read.

            Ah, bless him RE: the proposal 🙂

            Thank you for your insights, it is really good to read them x

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AspEmp 🙂

            I think your thoughts around ‘conditioning’ explains it well when it comes to the rejection some children experience. The comparison to dogs is not amiss, as we gained much of our understanding around human conditioning from the conditioning of animals. Such experiments are thought cruel now, but they have taught us a lot. Most importantly for me, the aspect of vulnerability that accompanies such conditioning. It is possible to influence for all the wrong reasons and in all the wrong ways. For example you could condition a dog to make it vicious, much as you can condition it to be friendly. It will depend on the owner’s treatment of the animal and sometimes the purpose it is to serve. People are not animals, but how we are treated will also impact the way we behave. It’s hard to imagine a more core emotional or psychological wound than rejection. A sense of acceptance and belonging is something we all need at some level. So a deliberate rejection is an attempt to force us to modify our behaviour. The silent treatment is a classic example of this. We become persona non grata until we come into line with the person doling out the silent treatment. Children who are exposed to these icy episodes may feel very rejected, and on the basis of that seek the please in order to gain recognition again. That’s just one example of how the narcissist can manipulate using rejection, and it’s often as effective in adulthood as it is in childhood. I know I fell for the last narc using this form of rejection on several occasions. Part of the reason may have been that I was primed to do so since childhood. It’s an incredibly powerful tool in a narcissist’s toolkit, or anyone’s for that matter. It can also be read wrongly if we are sensitive to it at times as well. We may read rejection where none exists and none was intended, as you’ve suggested when it comes to issues around neurodiversity. When it comes to narcissism, it’s awful for a child to be primed this way, and the moving of the goal posts is the worst of it. Being forced to jump through hoops for a sense of acceptance or belonging that should automatically be ours, and on the basis of that constantly question if we are good enough, if we’ll ever be good enough.

            It’s wonderful to know that now you feel you can let your guard down with the right people, AspEmp <3 "Right people" being the operative words. They are the people who will provide the sense of acceptance and belonging, and not the people who might reject us out of hand without getting to know us or our struggles. I'm so glad you shared more of your thoughts again 🙂 It's one of the reasons I also accept the differences in my children. They are also diverse, despite having come from the same two parent's and having many of the same experiences. No such thing as 'cookie cutter' children, though that might be easier for parent's sometimes 😛

            xox

          8. Asp Emp says:

            LET, yes, using dogs as a prime example – there are right and wrong ways to ‘condition’ a dog’s responses, ie police dogs (right), which is self-explanatory. It is not self-explanatory when it comes to “private” dog-fighting (wrong, ie non-law enforcement ‘use’).

            You totally understand ‘rejection’ as we both ‘know’ it very well, since we were vulnerable little girls.

            “We may read rejection where none exists and none was intended, as you’ve suggested when it comes to issues around neurodiversity” – thank you for writing that.

            Again, your understanding is clear here RE: ”on the basis of that constantly question if we are good enough”- hence the need for assuring / reassuring. Something so ‘trivial’ in the perception of those who do not understand, nor have experienced ‘rejection’ from a young age, yet can, at times, be important to, say you or me. Just that ‘nudge’ can make a lot of difference but we may not necessarily voice it out loud and feel even more dejected when it is not recognised, and / or acknowledged. Empathic people reach out, not always. Narcissists – well we know 🙂

            RE: The “right people” paragraph, thank you. Your reference to your daughters also made me look at me and my sister – same parents, same grandmother. Self-promoting myself here, I know which of the two I’d personally select, and that is me, no wonder I was grandmother’s favourite yet she still treated us all the same. Xx

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, enjoyed reading your thoughts again <3

            LOL to 'self promoting' yourself, and it's wonderful to hear you'd select yourself xox

            That is a very good place to be as you recognize all the good things about you, things that often you couldn't see because of the narcissist. The beauty of it also is I notice you constantly seeing the good in others, too. It is incredibly encouraging and will have a habit of finding it's way back to you x

          10. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you so much for your words. Your words mean a lot xox

  8. k mac says:

    He does change in the end though, right? It’s hard because he might of only changed because of the ghosts threatening his prime aims. I voted narcissist on this one.

  9. A Victor says:

    Okay, nope, Scrooge must be narcissistic only, not a narcissist. He changed, a narcissist can’t change. This story will not be ruined for me!!! 😂

    1. JB says:

      Did he really change though, AV, or was that just a load of flannel to have us think he had changed?

      1. A Victor says:

        He changed. 😂

        1. JB says:

          AV, 😂!

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