An Exchange With a Parental Narcissist

107 thoughts on “An Exchange With a Parental Narcissist

  1. Gypsy Heart says:


    I can understand your pain and suffering. I am sorry you had to experience that. I can also relate to how those experiences can last a lifetime. Many ACONs are conditioned to be people pleasers and to have poor boundary recognition that leads to being manipulated throughout their lives. I am currently in therapy for Complex PTSD from childhood. My counselor is very intelligent and is working with me on trauma therapy using CBT. He also recognizes narcissim and I have discussed HG’s work with him and he has encouraged me to continue my reading. (Really I just think it makes his job easier). Hahaha

    I don’t know if you saw my earlier post but my father leaned more towards psychopathy which made my narcissistic husband seem like a saint. I viewed my husband’s controlling ways and manipulations as more protective of me. I was never allowed by my father to make my own choices, not even my career. I was also forced to strive for perfection. Always the thoughts of not being good enough. This lead to my being very indecisive and having difficulties making my own choices in adulthood. I was almost relieved for my husband to take the reins.

    Early in my marriage I had decided not to have children because of my childhood. I didn’t feel that I had the proper role models to be a good parent myself. I met my narcissist husband when I was a senior in high school. His parents knew a bit about the physical and emotional abuse that I went through and treated me as a daughter from the time I started dating. My husband was very intelligent and could cognitively reason a lot of situations concerning our daughter. He did not want any of our family to see him in a bad light as a father. He also had his own issues from what I believe was a narcissist mother and an empathic father. He actually let me take the lead for a lot of ideas about raising her. I learned what not to do from my parents and explained this to him and his family and he had cognitive empathy. She was allowed to make her own choices and develop her own individuality. Of course starting with age appropriate choices and guidance.I would never let her suffer. Part of his facade was being a good father. He could be manipulative and controlling of her she loves her dad, and as an adult she continues to have a relationship with him.

    I did decide to leave him when she was a teenager. Things were pretty volatile at the end and I have a lot of regrets as to how that time period effected her. I would love to be a perfect parent but I have made plenty of mistakes as a parent. I have tried to own a lot of that with her now that she is an adult. She seems to understand. I also try not to paint her dad in a bad light. We have discussed her dad and I separating and I use the polite phrases. “I just felt like we didn’t want the same things out of life anymore”. “I felt like I was loosing myself”. She immediately piped up, “oh, you mean his attitude…it’s my way or the highway,?” Yes that would be it.

    I understand your heightened emotional thinking about your parents. You are absolutely valid in feeling this way. My heart goes out to you. I am glad you were able to express your emotions in a safe environment with those that understand. I hope it has helped and you are able to let some of that pain dissipate with the understanding of the subject matter and the support you will receive here. That heightened emotional thinking will subside as the logical thinking that you are gaining here begins to take over. I am already seeing that in your ability to understand some of the other comments here about romantic entanglements.

    I have to admit I did feel a twinge of emotional thinking with your statement about romantic involvements that felt like judgement. I have been dealing with my own emotional thinking lately that I have been working on. I have had a lot of anger about my own situation and have misplaced it on others. I realize that the anger is really a deep hurt and have been ashamed of directing it at others. With this insight I was able to logically understand where you are coming from and not take it personally. I have only touched the surface here and there is so much material provided by HG that I have yet to incorporate.

    I wish you the best in your healing journey,


  2. ST says:

    Please don’t read this if you are a victim of narc romance because my comment might hurt you. I just need to “spill my spleen” as a child of a narc.

    You are absolutely right that as a child of a narc I agree that I see our “suffering” as much worse than those of romance for the reasons you listed but also one other very important reason, we never get the luxury and pleasure of being love bombed. There is no need, by nature of birth we are automatically owned and controlled so from day one the abuse begins, never to experience even a single taste of love. To be love bombed would be heaven for a child, such a wonderful memory to hold on to, but we don’t get that. We are denied.

    Thus, this brings me to the “hurtful” part. Because we are denied any love, even from other relatives or anyone, I sometimes have a hard time reading the comments of people claiming to be victims of narc romance because I see them as extremely greedy, desperate and selfish only caring about their own pleasure in being “love bombed” with no care about the damage their reveling will bring to others. Why do I feel that way? Because my dad married and had children with a narc.

    My late father was a WONDERFUL man. As a child I looked up to him and thought if I married I wanted to marry a man just like him. I adored him. But by 9 I realized I couldn’t rely on him as a father and when I reached adolescence I lost respect for him because I realized he was just as much a part of the abuse as my narc mother because he helped create the abuse by impregnating my mother and he allowed the abuse. Therefore, as much as I loved my dad, I lost respect for him as a man and father. I still loved him, but I couldn’t respect him. It was so hard losing respect for a person I loved and admired so much.

    But the reality is there would have been NO child abuse if it had not been for him. He was 100% as guilty for the abuse as my mom. Once he saw some red flags, that should have stopped him from having children with my mom, but he didn’t and even worse, he would have given her unlimited children and did try but fortunately my mom’s body could only have 2 (she had multiple miscarriages). He did not care that she was not mother worthy.

    If he wanted to live with a narc that was his business, but he had no business bringing children into the world to be abused by his narc. It was also cruel for him to use children as his shield to get the darts off him. By having children, we got the abuse rather than him. That is cowardly, selfish, and cruel. I actually respect HG more than people having children with narcs because at least HG has chosen not to have children. I understand he probably doesn’t have them for his own selfish reasons, but that is better than HAVING them for selfish reasons!!!! Having children selfishly is the WORST thing!!!! That is objectifying children too. Narcs are not the only people that objectify children!!! Empaths do it too!!!!

    I will always love my dad, but I can never respect him for what he put his children through. And I can’t respect any person who greedily gobbles up vain, cheap flattery just to selfishly enjoy “love bombing”, and then starts seeing red flags but has children anyway. Then the people want to cry “I am a victim”. No, they created abuse out of selfishness!!! They should stop crying victimhood when they created helpless victims! They can escape, but the true victims they created, the babies and children, cannot escape. To some extent a child of a narcissist is trapped for life because the damage has been done in the foundational years.

    Now that I am an adult, I have gone through my mind many times on “why?” would such a good man as my father do such a thing to his children. And why would such a good man marry someone like my mother. His mother was like an angel, and I am not being biased because everyone that knew her both family and friends all said the same. She was so pure and good. So he was not marrying someone that reminded him of his mother. He had the perfect model for a wife in his mother, but he chose my mother and I have often wondered “why?”

    Well, he has passed and I will not get that answer, and I doubt he ever would have admitted he caused so much abuse. I doubt he ever relieved how guilty he was of abuse, and I never wanted to put such a guilt trip on him so I didn’t make him face up to it. So it is what it is. I still love him, and I do feel compassion for him because I know he was in way over his head, but I wish he had done better, and I know we can all do better but his mistake caused enormous abuse to innocent children’s lives. And anyone who has children with a narc is guilty of causing HORRIBLE abuse. Such people are not innocent even though they may be good people.

    I love you dad, but why!!!!

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi ST,

      I totally understand your comment, I have actually had the same thought a few times, not to minimize the impact of a romantic narcissist situation but it is very different. I have experienced both, the parental experience was both parents also, making it that much more challenging. I agree that in these situations both parents, narc or not, are responsible for what happens with the children. I’m my situation I was completely groomed by my parents to willingly accept any treatment by any man that I allowed into my life. So their abuse of me has continued for most of my life, even though one of them is now gone. I am glad you felt comfortable to write your frustrations out here, the warning at the beginning is good also. I hope you can find some peace with HG’s help, his work, he has helped me tremendously. All the best.


      1. ST says:

        Thank you Victor for your kind words. In your case, I can totally understand how having 2 narcissist parents would groom you to marry a narc and you would not understand what is happening to you is abuse because that’s all you knew and that is how you were raised to be. You were not raised to experience healthy relationships and boundaries. You were raised to accept abuse as normal. That makes perfect sense to me. So I don’t blame you. I would just say your circumstance is an unfortunate byproduct of narcissist parental abuse. The results of narcissistic or any parental abuse has ramifications on one’s adult life, and it sometimes takes years or even a lifetime to undo everything that was ingrained in the child from day one.

        However, my dad was different. In my dad’s case he had WONDERFUL, loving, kind, gentle, caring parents, aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, and grandparents. He came from a small close knit town where people treated each other with love and respect. He grew up only in a bubble of love, honesty, and good character. There is no reason in the world why he should have married and had children with a woman like my mom. It makes no sense to me.

        My mom, who is a narcissist, I understand. She had a caustic mother and my grandmother had a very dysfunctional mother so I can at least trace and understand my mother’s narcissism (it doesn’t excuse the abuse but I can at least understand and sympathize to some extent as to “why”). But with my dad there is no explanation to why he would do this to his children. He really was a good man, but his enabling and silence in some ways hurts more than my mom’s abuse because he really knew better.

        Anyway, thank you for listening and it really does feel better just writing it out and getting to “spill my spleen”. So that alone has given tremendous help and as I read more, I am sure that will help more too. Thank you again for your kindness.

        1. A Victor says:

          Hi ST,

          Thank you for your reply. As I was reading, and rereading your original comment, the thought came to mind that I am one who had children with a narc. And I have had to face many things that I did, caused or allowed into my children’s lives, it is an ongoing situation, more pops into my awareness all the time. There is nothing that can remove it now except for me to change myself into a healthier person who relates to them in a healthier way. They are patient and understanding of the process, and I am grateful for that. I am thankful for your comments here, I have thought of the first one several times since reading it, in context with current things going on in my life or that of others close to me. I am glad for you that you love your dad and I hope it has helped you to vent your spleen about this here.

          1. ST says:

            Thank you Victor. YES! It helped tremendously “venting my spleen”. I needed to get that out of my system. I had been carrying that since a young child. And I really appreciate you and others for allowing me to vent a very touchy topic. I also appreciate HG for opening a place for it to be vented. I am aware that most people here identify as empaths so I probably am a little too forward for the sensitive nature of everyone here, but I really do appreciate being able to say that at last!

            As for your children, of course they may be different from me, but I can say from my experience, even after going through all I went through with my narc mom (and she still keeps dishing it out to this day. It hasn’t ended), I do feel my father holds responsibility BUT as I said before I have always loved him. However, if he had later in his life acknowledged my sister and I had been abused and explained why he allowed it, I might have completely excused him because I never wanted to hold anything against him. I loved him. I have searched in my mind since childhood a way to excuse him. I just needed a good reason, and even if he didn’t have a good reason if he just had said to me “I am sorry.” I would have forgiven him. So if you are open and honest with your children without being bitter and placing the blame on their father (I don’t think I would have accepted my dad saying it was my mom’s fault. In my mind, she was the abuser but he is the one that placed me in the hell with her and gave her free reign to do whatever she wanted to do to me. In my mind, they both played a part), so if you just admit your part and explain “why” going back to your childhood, I think your children will be open to understanding. It sounds like they are already very understanding so you have nothing to fear. Therefore, feel free to move forward and fly!!! If your children do have some struggles with acceptance, just acknowledge they have a right to that and love them anyway, and as they get older and make their own mistakes in life, I think little by little they will understand more.

            Start enjoying your life now and spread that joy to your children! It is your time to fly!

    2. lickemtomorrow says:

      There is a lot of pain in your comment, ST, and anguish, which on many levels I understand.

      I also understand your comment if a self-reflective one and I’m glad you took the opportunity to vent you spleen.

      I’ve had many of the same thoughts around being the Adult Child of a Narcissist (ACON) and feel deeply aggrieved at my circumstances growing up. In my situation it’s more than likely both my parent’s were narcissists, so there was little chance of ever receiving what I needed as a child. Even a minimal intervention can make a difference, as I think it did for me.

      You are right to feel abandoned in the circumstances. There is nothing else for it sometimes.

      I have felt aggrieved on HG’s behalf in relation to his father and a lack of intervention from him. I often wonder how much of a difference it could have made.

      I also want to comment on the notion of having children with the narcissist.

      We often do not know that we have been entangled with the first narcissist (parent) when we become involved in our next relationship – often romantic – and this leads us to continuing to be ensnared. We have been ‘prepped’, if you like, for these relationships and can’t see the forest for the trees. We don’t know we have been abused and will often seek out familiar relationships because we know no better. In your father’s case it seems he had an opportunity to choose differently going by our description of your grandmother. Having said that, empathic victims are the narcissist’s choice and the reason for that is because empaths can be more easily ensnared due to their nature.

      When it comes to having children with the narcissist, I have three. I did not know he was a narcissist, but I was primed for a relationship with one such as him, though I was fortunate to make my escape early on. The reason for that was I knew the impact of an abusive relationship as a child and did not want my children to suffer the same fate. I am one type of empath, of which there are many, and we will all respond differently to the circumstances. The fact is, many of us are unaware going into relationships and the blindness we experience due to the many manipulations of the narcissist can last a very long time.

      I want to acknowledge your pain and respect the fact you feel as you do and have shared it here. Perhaps you will find an answer to the “why?” here as well, though it’s impossible to know how long the pain from the choices your father made will last. I am sorry you were so let down as a child and can concur with the feeling of being aggrieved. I hope you will find some solace in knowing you are not alone and the truth is we all deserved better.

      1. ST says:

        Lickemtomorrow, thank you for your very thoughtful reply. Yours and Victor’s replies make me realize that some people who get romantically ensnared with a narc did so because they were groomed for nothing less by their narc parents. I can fully understand and sympathize with that. And I am glad you made me aware of that because I was looking at people who got in these relationships through the lens of my dad who did not come from a narc family. He came from a very good family and community. So it just really frustrated me that so many people were “choosing” this life for their children but now I see how sad it is that some people don’t choose it, they are just groomed for it. I can understand that.

        I also respect you for realizing the impact this would have on your children, and then taking action to protect them. I think for an ACON (that’s a new but useful acronym to me), it is very difficult to stand up for yourself and others so what you did for your children is much braver and harder than for the average person because a child of a narc is raised without ever having any power or rights so your action is quite heroic and admirable.

        You said you got out early so I don’t know if your children were old enough to realize or appreciate what you did for them, but I think any ACON knows the trauma you spared your children from is priceless.

        As for the “why” with my dad, “spilling my spleen” was actually very helpful to me. After writing it out, I sat back, thought about it and realized the “why” is like a giant jigsaw puzzle with jumbled, missing, and mismatched pieces that I could spend the rest of my life trying to put together. I realized those years would be better spent on other things so I metaphorically put the lid on the puzzle and said “goodbye” to my dad (for reasons surrounding narcissism I was never able to say goodbye to my dad when he died so my unresolved grief has been going on for 4 years but HG gave me a way to end my grief. Thank you HG!!!!), and I put the puzzle back on the shelf. I don’t put the puzzle on the shelf like a narc. I just put it on the shelf knowing the puzzle is too big and complicated for me, but one day when I see my dad again, I will pull the puzzle off the shelf with my dad, but this time it will be beautifully and perfectly put together and the whys will either be answered or not matter any more. So I am not going to search for the why with my dad anymore. It is okay. I am just going to move on with life.

        However, I am going to read more on HG’s blog because even though my dad’s puzzle I can close, I have other existing narc puzzles that I can’t just put on a shelf to come back to later because the people are alive. But anyway, I am happy because HG gave me a way to say goodbye to a dad I really did love but just couldn’t fully understand.

        And I thank you for taking the time to reply. It was helpful!!!! I wish you and your children well.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          ST, thanks for your response and I appreciate the further thoughts you have shared.

          I’m sure every person who has children with a narcissist will have a different story, but I removed my children from his physical proximity (countries) which removed a great deal of the threat he posed. At the same time, I did not attempt to prevent communication between him and the children which has been ongoing. This can sometimes create a dilemma because an element of the facade can be maintained from a distance. Their age also has an impact as they were very young when we initially separated and between 10-14yrs old when I removed them altogether. He had minimal access over the eight years before we left. In the context of that, regardless of his narcissistic behaviours at the time which were quite impactful, he still manages to maintain a relationship with them, the opportunity for which I think distance has created. If they had been subject to the full force of his narcissism throughout their lives up to this point, I’ve no doubt they would be very different children and either have come completely under the thrall of the narcissist or wanted nothing to do with him. For now, they have a ‘happy medium’ type of situation where distance has kept them safe from the worst of narcissism’s effects, but they are not completely cut off from him or extended family in the situation. As adults they can make up their own minds, and they can also judge me. I think each one of them knows in their heart of hearts they would have suffered a much worse fate if I had not made the decision I made, but it pains me to have had to do that to keep them safe.

          I’m so glad you feel you have found a way here, and with HG, to help resolve your grief and put the puzzle aside until you see your father again. It is a puzzle in many ways which can be impossible to solve and here I have found many pieces that helped to make sense of my life. It was the key to unlocking my suffering. There was finally an explanation, and narcissism was it. In my case, it was very insidious and hard to capture to be able to understand. I’m also very grateful to have been handed that key, but not all explanations will be provided in this life.

          For now, I’m happy to hear you see value in continuing to learn more due to other narcissistic entanglements in your life. For empaths, it’s very important to know how to deal with narcissists, as you know from your father’s experience as well.

    3. Joa says:

      ST, I understand you very well. I also do not respect my mother for not being able to live without a specific kind of men, four of whom in particular left a mark on my life. It was her men, her choices! Although I know, that after my father’s suicide, as a 22-year-old widow with two children, without higher education (at the time), she had little room for maneuver, and my stepfather was a very respected and cultured man and he also won our hearts. I do not respect her for the fact, that she ignores, “does not remember” or overly excuses, what happened in our family home.

      The worst thing is not what happened to me as a child (I wanted to and very often I was a shield, because that was “lighter” for me). The worst thing was to watch her get hurt.

      For me, as a child, there was nothing scarier than, for example, hearing my mother moan at night: “It hurts, please don’t”. To see my mom pick up a piece of her own lip from the floor after being hit by my stepfather. And half an hour later at the surgeon’s, and then at my grandmother’s, friends, neighbors’ house, we had to lie that my mother ran into the open wardrobe door. For years, I participated in maintaining facade of the cultural and the intellectual family. I was a child from a very good and wealthy home. Privileged position.

      But, there are other things for which I undoubtedly admire my mother, for fortitude, for steadfastness, for intelligence, for organizational skills, for the power of persuasion. There are many things, that I am grateful to her for (a lot!).

      She told me sadly once: “I think, I don’t know how to love anyone.” I understand her. I know, what she’s been through. But we children had to go through it with her.


      Bombing with love is not greed, empty phrases and only pleasure. It’s just the moment, when you believe, that you have finally met someone you can trust, who you can love, who will love you, with whom you will build something intimate, hidden from the world and beautiful. Someone with whom it will finally be safe and warm. Bombing with love is tearing your veins out for the other person, protecting, justifying, giving, giving and giving. It’s me was bombing with love!

      I did everything to keep, my baby safe. I did everything not to be like my mother.

      My child, already a teenager, has a quiet home. No men. No dependency. Without the pressure. Modest (if you compare the conditions in which I grew up).

      I have provided the most normal home, I can, but it’s not a perfect home.

      It is also not easy childhood. It is a very, very difficult start to adult life. Without a strong paternal hand. She is as defenseless as a butterfly. She is like a blank slate. No experience.

      I know, that my child will judge me. I’m sure of it and I’m ready for it.

      History repeats itself.

      It doesn’t matter. I just want her not to suffer. That she would have an ordinary, good life.

      As a mother, I began to recede into the shadows.

      1. ST says:

        Joa, I understand how the worst is hearing and seeing your mother abused. I am the same. Psychologically I could take being abused more than hearing my sister abused. It is horrific to hear/see someone else abused.

        In your case though, with your dad gone, it sounds like you had to witness your only source of security being battered, that must have had a profound effect on your life and sense of security. No child should have to endure that, but congratulations because it sounds like you broke the cycle and didn’t make your child have to go through that. So history did not repeat itself. You stopped the cycle!

        Hence, when your child eventually evaluates/judges you, don’t worry, tell your story, admit your wrongs, fill in the blanks, and you will pass the judgement. If you failed in some areas, let that be a learning curve for your child to do better with your future, precious grandchildren! Children and even adult children are generous in evaluating parents I think. You have not blotted out the good in your mom. I have not blotted out the good in my dad, and even with his one major mistake, I still love him!!! And if I had just known “why” I might have even excused him. Surely your child will recognize your good too.

        Love bombing is a tough one for me because as both a teenager and an adult I have sat and watched men/boys obviously spewing out a bunch of garbage to a girl who just wants to be loved so she laps it all up. I sit there and see what is going on, I watch the girl fall for his spell and eventually get hurt and thrown out like a piece of trash. I have had many men try it on me to no avail. To me it is so fake it is obvious. Thus, it is a turn off. Therefore, I see anyone who falls for it as desperate and greedy for love.

        Now is it wrong to desperately want love? I don’t think so, so I do feel some compassion for anyone who falls for this. However, it becomes wrong when someone falls for it with the wrong person and that person enters or affects an innocent child’s life. As you so accurately stated, “her men, her choices”. If a man/woman wants to be used and abused, that is their choice, but leave children out of it.

        As for picking the wrong person, the problem I see is basically anyone who uses the tactic of love bombing IS the wrong person!!! And anyone who is falling for this, is blindly grasping for love.

        Did my dad fall for love bombing? I don’t know, but if he did, I would think him foolish. He had everything to know better. If you fell for love bombing, you didn’t have the same stability and solid home like my dad did so I would say you just didn’t have the same tools to see what was happening to you and you would perhaps feel more of a need for love than my dad. My dad was surrounded by genuine love. It sounds like you didn’t have all that love, support and security like my dad did. Anyway, I don’t want to throw my deceased dad under the bus. He made his mistake, but he is human and I have made my fair share of mistakes too so I can’t be too critical. All we can do it make the best of it and learn from the mistakes. It sounds like you have done that by trying to make better decisions for your child. I commend you for that!!!! And wish you both well!

  3. NarcAngel says:

    My view on monitoring:

    While I understand general care and concern in making comments and/or giving opinions, I equate monitoring oneself excessively to avoid misinterpretation to be tied to a fear of being disliked. Where people are truly open to discussion and learning there will be clarification that may still lead to disagreement, but not one of ongoing hostility. Where that happens, it almost always a case of someone determined to misinterpret for their own personal reasons and nothing to do with the commenter. There is not much to be learned if we are inauthentic in giving watered down views/opinions in order not to offend. Intelligent people want genuine discussion and will rise to exchange and understanding where possible, but not always acceptance – and that’s okay isn’t it? There can be great pride and legacy for HG in a place reputed for unrivalled education and intelligent subscribers that makes it worthwhile continuing, but I can not envision it as worth his valuable time or allowing it to degrade into an empath lonely hearts club where we all just meet and agree. How boring for all of us, including I imagine, HG.

    I wrote this with general care but little concern. Those who want to understand will, and those who do not – will not, but there is no fear of being disliked. Is that not at the root of what kept most of us ensnared so long and how we ended up here?

    It says: Vent Your Spleen!
    Not: Tiptoe Through the Tulips

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well stated, NA.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        So, does this mean that the ‘floor is open’, HG ? 😉

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Was it ever closed?

          1. Asp Emp says:

            No, it wasn’t, HG 🙂

      2. NarcAngel says:

        I appreciate that, HG.

        Speaking of appreciation…..

        I would like to take a moment to thank you personally for all of your time and effort, and the ongoing innovation in providing new information and products. The diversity in your methods of teaching are quite impressive and ensure a place of understanding for a broad range of clients who are at all different stages. No easy feat.

        The 100k Interviews are stellar, the celebrity analyses to witness in real time and for practice in applying the work, the humorous Mauls series and Tudor Tales, the burgeoning Knowledge Vault, just to name a few. You are bringing understanding of a difficult subject to the world in a way that no one else has, or can. There is huge gratitude for your recognition, willingness, and ability to act on the opportunity to marry some of your needs with that of ours with a vision to creating a lasting legacy. Brilliant.

        On a personal note:
        Thank you for being an instrument of change in my life. You gave not just answers but understanding to questions that had plagued me for most of it. I was muddling through and had pieces here and there, but the relief that came from the clarity that you provide has been invaluable. The patience and and courtesy that you have demonstrated in our exchanges for learning and especially in the very few instances of disagreement, attest to your professionalism and have been appreciated. I am ever grateful for the opportunity to have been admitted entry to this world of Knowing (a little) of the Narcissist that is H.G Tudor/The Ultra.


        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you NA much appreciated and thank you for you continued contributions and support of my work.

        2. Duchessbea says:

          That is a very lovely comment to make.

    2. Leigh says:

      NA, I agree with most of your statement with one little change. Not all self monitoring is done because they are afraid of being disliked. I’ve been monitoring as well and it has nothing to with not being liked. Sometimes its a self defense move. I feel uncomfortable on the blog right now because I feel under attack by one of the bloggers. Maybe it’s in my head but I feel it’s easier to limit my comments because it limits the chances of the blogger saying something to me. I can’t tell the blogger to not comment on my comments because its a public blog so its easier to abstain from commenting myself. I’m all for spirited debates. But once it became hostile with name calling and general nastiness, I felt it was best to lessen my comments.

      I just wanted to point out that there could be other reasons why someone self monitors.

      I do agree with what you say though. Curbing our comment to coddle one another would be quite boring.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Leigh, there is ‘defense’ and there is also ‘ignorance’, two different perceptions / ways of thinking. I do not believe you feel uncomfortable about being on the blog, that is just excuses. Nobody is “attacking” you personally, they may be questioning your approaches (responses) towards others.

        Somebody apologised to you for coming across as judging you unfairly because you gave them that impression when in fact, they were not, that person was offering you support and you dissed on them dismissively. You did not say anything to reduce that person’s ‘view’ of themselves, that, in my view, was unfair on that person. You were not ‘seeing’ it, or accepting it from their perspective, just like you did not accept my perspective. It seems to me, from what I have seen you and other commentors exchanging, that it is one-sided, from your perspective, the other person’s perspective does not matter to you.

        Someone else suggested that your ET is keeping you “ensnared” to your husband. You chose to stay and came up with excuses** not to leave.

        You shared about the lack of the lock on the bathroom door. Why did you, yourself not put a lock on to ensure privacy for everyone in the household? It is common sense. Or was it a ‘control’ thing? Consider why your husband did not put a lock on the door, maybe he did (or at least suggest it)?

        Leigh, there are several people on this blog who have spent time and effort in supporting you. Some of them you have treated in a dismissive manner, dismissing their support and used excuses why you are not dealing with your own personal situation. I say “excuses” because HG used those words to you around the long discussion where people were offering you support / advice (around December 2020, I think it was).

        You seem to think it is ok to be smoochy to some people and shit on others. Why? Because they (in your eyes) either, dared to challenge you, or you viewed it as a challenge – as if it was threatening your control.

        You cannot accuse non-narcissists of having behaviours when they were not actually showing any towards you and not even look at your own behaviours at how you treated them.

        You even had the nerve to ask about someone’s happiness indirectly to someone else, when in fact, they are happy and you are not. So what? You chose to stay, so you cannot be justified in having envy, or jealousy towards people who are happy and in a successful relationship. Deal with your own ‘issues’ instead of projecting your anger outwards for the wrong reasons towards those people, for the right reasons for your own situation.

        I could very list those people you ‘shat’ on, on here but I will not because I have respect for those people.

        18 months later, after the long December 2020 support / advice discussion where the attention was on you, given to you and you have basically thrown it back into the faces of those who helped you. You know this, if you had taken that advice and acted on it, you’d probably be divorced by now, living quite happily in your own place and would have been emotionally and mentally ready to meet someone else.

        I am not ‘blind’ to what I say on HG’s blog. I am not ignorant either. Have you seen any evidence (if, so, prove it), that I gaslight; question people’s integrity; I blame-shift (making excuses, not taking accountability, nor responsibility for what I say); I triangulate…..oh, by the way, am I provoking here? Am I bringing up the past here?

        Consider your own behaviours first, that is what you suggest as “self-monitoring”.

      2. WiserNow says:

        Well said Leigh. I also feel it’s easier to limit my comments at times.

        It’s quite funny really. Too much self-monitoring can lead to suggestions like, “be fearless” or “how boring for HG”.

        …meanwhile honest and spontaneously genuine comments can lead to no-one wanting to know you haha

        I’m still not entirely sure where the acceptable point is between ‘prissy knickers’ and ‘viciously callous’… 🙂

    3. A Victor says:

      NA, what a great comment! I have always self monitored/moderated and it’s only gotten me into trouble! Here I am learning, slowly but surely, that is okay for me to have a voice, an opinion, a thought and to say it and stand by it. You are so correct, it’s okay to disagree, it’s just getting past that fear of doing so that can be so difficult sometimes. Especially when there was literal fear of expressing oneself due to possible painful consequences. It is not always a matter of fearing not being liked but that has a place also. Thank you for your comment, really great.

      1. Contagious says:

        Victor your replies and analysis were beyond the call of duty! Keep commenting;)

        1. A Victor says:


          Thank you for your comment, it is very encouraging to me.

    4. Truthseeker6157 says:


      I agree with your thinking here. If we self monitor too much, it’s a pointless exercise adding the comment in the first place.

      I think there are lots of reasons why people including myself self monitor. They don’t have to be tied to a fear of being disliked. Sharing opinions online is very different to sharing them face to face or even via audio.


      1. NarcAngel says:

        Yes, I do recognize that there are other reasons for self monitoring. My observation was that in general people (both here and off blog) hesitate to give their opinion for fear of having it be an unpopular one with the majority and have that majority perceive them to be other than the way in which they prefer to be viewed (“playing well with others”, “the one to turn to”, etc). I still see a thread to those things as a fear of having people dislike them or a changed perception of them. With Vent your spleen vs Tiptoe through the tulips, I am speaking of opinions on the blog subject at hand at any given time and the discussions surrounding that. NOT advocating using a strong opinion as thinly veiled provocation or to make known one’s personal negative feelings of another. That has nothing to do with the purpose of this space and is easily identified for what it is by the intelligent people here.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Thank you for the further clarification. Yes, you’re right and linking your point back to my original comment about me sharing thoughts on a couple of threads recently, then deleting them, I see what you’re driving at here.

          There have been a couple of threads recently where I have read myself back as harsher, less forgiving, less accommodating than most. My views on Prince Harry’s behaviour would be a good example. Those are my views though and I can’t change those views just to fit in with the majority. I didn’t feel at all put upon by HG or the other commenters here for holding those different views though. That’s important to note. I found that thread interesting and it did soften my attitude to a degree without necessarily changing my views.

          My deleting of my own comments of late has been a little to do with not wanting to rock the boat I’ll admit. Also lower energy just due to life stresses, and some current self evaluation as to how I behave and why. Basically, I’m a little erratic just now! You’re also correct about there being some very intelligent people here on the blog, so if I’m going to give an opinion, I feel I should at least be prepared to back it up!

          I take your point NA, thank you for making it.


        2. Gypsy Heart says:

          I believe you all have very valid perspectives coming from the context of differing experiences. I have witnessed people going through the same experience and have been amazed at all the different perspectives that arose from that same situation. It is no wonder that we all have very individual perspectives concerning the subject matter. We are all valid in our thoughts and emotions concerning what we all personally experienced on an individual level.

          I truly believe that those of us who keep returning are here to learn. To make sense of what has happened in our lives. Sometimes hearing other perspectives can fill in the missing pieces to the puzzle we have all been trying to solve in our lives. Some opinions here may ring true to my own situations, whereas others may not be as applicable. However it doesn’t mean that I feel that a particular persons thoughts, feelings, or opinions should be invalidated in their situation. We just may not be able to understand if we haven’t experienced a similar situation. Rather than take offense I would like to look at it in the same way that HG explains the narcissists in our lives do not feel love or emotional empathy. It makes sense why they seem to not be able to see our perspective. Many of us may also be experiencing differing levels of ET and haven’t quite got to the point of getting it back down to LT. And that ET seems to come to the forefront sometimes when we least expect it. As long as my perspective isn’t being completely invalidated and that person isn’t trying to infoce their beliefs on me I try to understand that persons opinion even if I don’t agree with it.I have been impressed with many here who can respect that and be supportive of each other.

          I too am an ACON. He is deceased now, but it still haunts me. Most of my relationships have been with narcissists. My twenty seven year relationship that I raised a child in was with a narcissist. To give another perspective, I believe my father leaned more towards the psychopathy aspect of the human dynamic. Very chilling and terrorising emotional and physical abuse with constant threats of death.I believe the narcissistic dynamic is much more tame in comparison. I believe this is why I had no idea throughout my marriage. It was only after my escape that I realized this. Not to mention HG has described all the different types of narcissists that may present differently than a parental narcissist.

          I can also understand the feelings of abandonment by the parent that allowed this to happen. I refused to think about this for so long. I even became very angry with the therapist that broached this subject many years ago. My mother was a good woman and a victim also. I have always loved my mother also, but she should have never alowed this. I also am now dealing with the emotions of viewing my mother in a childlike way where I felt that I had to be the strong one for her. Her emotional support after he had left her in a battered, sobbing heap on the floor then took off and left me to pick up the pieces. I even became the scapegoat to ease some of the physical abuse when I knew she couldn’t handle it anymore.

          I do admire so many people on here. I’m glad to be back and to see that many of these people are still here. The support here has gotten me through some really difficult times. I hope we can all work out our differences and work together.

          Most of all I am thankful for HG for the valuable information provided. I’m also thankful that we are encouraged to think for ourselves and apply the material to our lives to understand ourselves and those around us.

          1. Leigh says:

            Thank you Gypsy Heart for sharing your story. I’m in a very similar situation. Both of my parents, my partner of 37 years and my daughter are all narcissists. If I may ask, how did you escape?

          2. Gypsy Heart says:


            First of all I would like to commend you on finding this site so that you can understand and apply it to your situation. It must have been excruciating to be raised by two narcissist parents and still come out of it with a shred of sanity. Many of us have had an empathic parent to see that not all people are like the narcissist. May I ask if you had other role models that you turned to? I realize that as a child I seemed to seek out these individuals to fill the gap. When I was five my father put a chain link fence around our large back yard to contain me so that my mother could deal with my younger brother and the chores of the household. I immediately climbed the fence to spend time with the neighbor that was always landscaping in his yard. The neighbors were a childless couple. From that point I adopted him as my grandfather and he could never get rid of me. I believe we both fulfilled something in each other that was missing. I also believe that is where my love for nature, landscaping and gardening came from. I continued this relationship even after I left home. I also cannot imagine the sucker punch you must have felt learning that your own child is a narcissist. Are you still with your husband? I understand you are taking steps to escape?

            My first escape was my father. The first evening that I spent in my rental house when I went away to university my boyfriend came and spent the night. We had discussed whether or not to park his car elsewhere, but I stated that if he was going to go through the trouble of driving all the way over here we may as well make it worth his effort and his car remained parked in my drive. I realize now that the boyfriend that I eventually married must have been very intimidated by my father but maintained a brave front. Sure enough the next day he cut me off all financial support and continued to completely foot the bill for all my brother’s expenses when he went away to a different university. My brother had an eidetic memory just as my father did. He was the golden child. I was the B-grader.

            I immediately started counseling sessions at the campus and was shocked when a priest open his office door in complete priest attire. He also had a psychology degree. He used a few choice cuss words early on in our conversation and encouraged me not to hold back with my emotions and my own choice words. This is where my first idea of no contact came from. Back then we referred to it as estrangement. I am forever thankful for the cussing priest.

            My second escape was from my 24 yr. marriage. He had become more aggressive toward the end as I was standing up for myself. Throwing me around, holding my arms so I could not walk away from the argument. Once I came home for lunch (he had his own home business) and we had a heated argument. I decided this time I would get the last word in as I was walking out the door to go back to work. He ran after me to my car and preceded to try to pull me out. At the same time I was trying to shut the door and drive away. He even had the balls to say I was the aggressor and that I was trying to slam his arm in the door. I stated that I was trying to get away and all he needed to do was let go. Some time later we went on a float trip with my co-workers and their significant others. At one point he became very angry and threw me in the raft and I hit my head on the cooler. Immediately co-worker spouses and men from other groups on the river were after him and there were lots of people holding these guys back. I think he almost got drowned in the river that day. Needless to say there was an intervention and I left to go stay with some frenemies from that group.

            The married guy that was the spokesperson of this group and a friend of ours nearly as long as our marriage was also seducing me. I stayed on their couch for a month then went to a safehouse for 3 months. I eventually cut ties with this whole group. They continue a malign campaign against me that follkwed me to another state. The roomate there was from my highschool days that I had reconnected with on Facebook. She had connections to this group. I befriended another guy that I reconnected with on Facebook and he helped me move back home. He is the one that is responsibele for the demise of his late wife. I have a restraining order against him. He is also friends with the rommate that I escaped from the other state.

            I believe my co-worker/neighbor that has been using me for resources is also friends with the son of this narcissist couple. I just started shutting him down. At the helm is this womam’s matrinarc. She is substantially well off and spends more time vacationing internationally than she spends in the states. I have watched her purposely looking up narcissist information and using gaslighting on purpose with other affairs that this man has had. She would state there are always ways of getting rid of the other woman. Not sure she is aware she is a narcissist but I have witnessed her researching the tools to use to her advantage. Ironically the married daughter was always telling me about the affairs she was having. When I looked at this groups Facebook profiles they all stated they were in heterosexual relationships/marriages but listed they were also bisexual. I have never had any stereotypes and have been friends with bisexual, gay, lesbian, and transgender people. I have never been judgemental, but I noticed that HG states that a lot of narcissists are bisexual.

            Whew!!!!!, anyway that’s my story and I’m sticking to it…..GOSO,


          3. Leigh says:

            Gypsy, thank you for sharing more of your story.

            No, I didn’t have any other adults to turn to as a child. I have two brothers as well. One of them has an intellectual disability. He’s probably about an 8 year old intellectually. My mother was awful to him. He was her scapegoat. I was her golden child. She’s a victim narcissist and we were all neglected. I often would go to bed starving. My father used his fists to discipline. My younger brother was his scapegoat and I was his golden child as well. He was tyrannical. He left when I was 14. Shortly after that, I met my husband and we’ve been together since. We have two daughters. One an empath, the other a narcissist.

            My father has passed away so that relationship is over. My mother is in a nursing home and I only speak with her once a month for 5 minutes. Sadly, I have not escaped my husband. As for my daughter, all I can do right now is almost no contact. She still lives in my home. But even if she didn’t, I don’t think I could erase her totally. My husband is a victim narcissist like my mother. He is more draining than anything else. He sucks the life out of me.

            Thank you for commending me for finding narcsite. I found it 3 years ago and it has opened my eyes. Many human behaviors finally make sense. Mr. Tudor has given us all an incredible gift and I’m extremely thankful for it.

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi Gypsy Heart,

            This comment is very timely for me and I just wanted to thank you for it. The abandonment ties in to a sense of betrayal by friends who don’t agree with my perspective. I needed this piece of the puzzle this exact week, thank you so much.

          5. A Victor says:

            Oh, but it doesn’t have to, that’s the good news! Thanks again!

          6. Gypsy Heart says:

            Thank you AV,

            I am glad if sharing some of my story and opinions has helped with your situation. I am also dealing with feelings of betrayel and abandonment by friends and coworkers at this time. I work in a manufacturing and production job at the moment. There is rampant bullying and sexual harrassment even in leadership positions there. I am the whistleblower and have a hard time keeping my mouth shut. I will be listening to The Virtues of Keeping your Mouth Shut from the Knowledge Vault over and over again because this is a hard lesson for me and gets me into all kinds of trouble. I also have strong resentment toward my supervisor because I went to him and informed him that my abuser would be trying to get a job there just to continue his harrassment of me. They knowingly hired him anyway. I then went through hiring legal services to prove this and attain a restraing order with the help of my coworkers. The company suspended him and feigned support, but left it up to me to prove before making the decision not to let him come back. I had to go through conference calls with corporate legal services also. I waited until this time to reveal that my supervisor knowingly hired this guy. The new human resources guy present just about fell out of his chair. I’m pretty sure he had to change his britches after that one. He resigned not long after and all of our HR stuff is by phone through corporate now. I’m a bit intimidated because this is a multibillion dollar company with their hands in pots nationwide as well as internationally. My supervisor knows I have no respect for him and is quite sheepish around me. As he was taking me back for the legal conference I shot daggers at him with my eyes. Pulled myself up three inches higher as I walked at a brisk pace to the office with him trailing behind. Shut the office door in his face and he had to use his badge to open the door behind me. As I went in the HR office he was stating well I guess you don’t need me anymore and I shut that door in his face before he could finish the sentence. I don’t plan on staying there forever. It is just a stepping stone to get my feet back on the ground. But before I leave I am going to insist that they hire a professional organization to come in and address the bullying and sexual harrassment. If they don’t I will persue this through my own legal services.

            I hope your situation gets better AV,


          7. A Victor says:

            Gypsy, you have much more going on than I do the way it sounds. I hope it all gets better for you very soon. And that you don’t have to use your own resources to pursue the harassment, they should be taking care of that already.

            Just to clarify, for myself as much as anybody, the sense of abandonment is something I didn’t recognize until reading your comment, that was an eye opener, because it related to the sense of betrayal I had recognized earlier in the day. But I believe, though I can’t change the fact that there was a sense of abandonment which has caused me to do the abandoning prematurely in most situations, now that I know what I’m dealing with, it can all be made controllable. Logic is pretty easy on this one, now that I see what must be done with it. Hmmm, not sure if that clarified…😂

          8. Gypsy Heart says:

            The sexual harrassment there is unbelievable. Apparently it has always been going on and even by men in leadership positions. I noticed that the women just seem to accept it, but some of us talk about how we don’t like it. They will put there hands on us, hug us, then brush there hands down the side of our breasts, waste, hips and bum. One of the guys I work with said he stood back and counted 5 instances of sexual harrassment in a 30 minute period. The old married guys have been terrible (ewww). Try to get me to go pick okra, pecans. One wanted me to go dig nightcrawlers with him. The young ones just want to envite me to hang on the couch with them and get high. There is at least one that I don’t have to worry about anymore. He was the lead over another department. He ended up going to prison because he was a pedophile. I’m almost to the point where I want to hang a sign over my work area that states….”old married guys- not a chance, thinking you want a friends with benefits kinda thing- think again, having the MILF/cougar fantasy-forget about it, and no I am not gay.

          9. Gypsy Heart says:

            I’m thinking about having my sign professionally done. Any recommendations out there for some quality work? I do believe in quality, but this company doesn’t. We have had quality issues when on a time crunch and they just say ship it, we’ll deal with it later. WTF!?!?!?!

          10. Gypsy Heart says:

            Also I would like to add that the punch in the gut that made me realize that the company was only looking at this for their own concerns (CYA) situation was that I had numerous signed statements from. Co-workers that they were witnessing his stalking and harrassment behaviour at work and around town. They were only interested in instances that were witnessed at work or the streets around the warehouse at breaktime, not him stalking me around my neighborhood or him following other coworkers into outside businesses and harrassing them about me. When I delivered the signed statements to the HR guy and then said I still needed copies for my own lawsuit he informed me that he was instructed not to let me have them. He then said something like maybe you already made the copies and set them on the corner of his desk and looked the other way. I immediately grabbed them and went down the hall to make my copies.

          11. A Victor says:

            Gypsy Heart, it sounds like that entire company needs a complete overhaul. I can’t help you with a sign maker suggestion but it doesn’t sound like that’s a bad idea at all. Sometimes I wish I had a plaque just like that to hand around my neck! 😂

          12. A Victor says:

            Hang** around my neck! Ugh.

          13. Gypsy Heart says:

            You have no idea! I feel so bad for the people who have given their whole lives to this company. They were promised so much so long ago and have been screwed over by the company changing hands and being bought out by corporate. I have never worked anywhere where the employee morale was so bad. There is a union but I believe it is corupt too. It is actually in the contract that they cannot go on strike. You hear about this in other countries too. People die on the floor and business carries on like nothing happened. I have heard comments from old timers that if they are dying to please drag them across the street so they don’t have to die in that hell hole. I have heard so many stories that are shocking. But it’s not just this factory, it is happening in so many factories nationwide and internationally. It happened to my father in law in another state when he retired too. He ended up with nothing by the time he retired. But at least you don’t have to worry about shutting down through a pandemic. Big business won’t let that happen.

          14. A Victor says:

            You are right Gypsy Heart, I had no idea. I literally have not known of such things as you describe. So narcissists do good things sometimes perhaps, but when it no longer serves their purpose, or alternatively, when they come into power in some way, look out. This is of course assuming your company is run by narcissists. I don’t believe empaths or normals would tolerate such conditions for their fellow humans. Thank you for showing another side of life that is not pretty but that we do will to be aware of.

        3. Leigh says:

          NA, you made a comment about self monitoring so I decided to stop self monitoring and make a comment. One can say that your comment was made to provoke reactions as well. Aren’t all of our comments made to provoke thoughts and reactions? I agree that you and the other bloggers are intelligent people. I knew what I was doing and I knew my comment would provoke. I also knew that people would see that because I do agree that the commenters here are intelligent people. I stand by my comment. The reactions to my comment actually proves my point. Not all self monitoring is because of fear of being disliked. Sometimes its to avoid conflict. Had I self monitored like I usually do, this conversation wouldn’t be happening.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            I honestly have no idea what you are referring to. I don’t recall you making a comment that I considered provocative. I only recall you saying there may be other reasons. Yes, comments are made to provoke thought, I was referring to incidents where people have used them as a veil to create (usually personal) conflict with another and I was not referring to you or anyone specific. We have all seen them over time. If I had something to say to you specifically I would be direct.

          2. Leigh says:

            NA, thank you for your response. Please allow me to apologize. I misunderstood your comment. I thought you were saying my comment about self monitoring was a thinly veiled provocation. On some level, your statement rang true for me because it did provoke reactions. I appreciate that you would be direct. Thank you.

  4. NarcAngel says:

    Wow. That must be one gigantic hard drive.

  5. jasmin says:

    This exchange accordes with what I’ve been hearing from my dad for almost all my life. Feelings of guilt and obligation are deep seated in my construction.

  6. lickemtomorrow says:

    This is a Mid Range Victim narcissist, who uses numerous pity plays, imposition of guilt and passive aggressive behaviour to manipulate her son. That’s my guess.

    Any parent may at times feel a sense of abandonment by their children, but it’s the response that tells the tale. Many parent’s would hold in their sense of disappointment, or annoyance, and still put their children first in terms of understanding their decision making. I think this video really demonstrates the sense of ‘extension’ a narcissistic parent has to their child, with the expectation built in that the child puts the parent first and it is the parent’s needs which are paramount.

    I do believe narcissistic parent’s can also do the opposite to this in terms of manipulation and basically exclude their children who are not co-operative, or even confronting, leading to long term silent treatments. People often assume a narcissistic parent is going to try to manipulate a child using the methods described in this video – and I know a lot of people can relate – but they will also ‘cold shoulder’ a child who they determine to still have control over. This may be done to have the child running back to them, feeling the anxiety of the lack of communication.

    It probably all depends on the type of narcissist, but the parent described definitely appears to be of the Victim variety and her manipulations are based on that.

    1. A Victor says:

      LET, I agree with your mid-range assessment, MMRB Victim? Or MMRA Victim? I feel like she’s more sophisticated than my LMR Victim mom and less than my UMR dad. I’m thinking B since she’s so whiney, but that could be the Victim element. I thought maybe A because she’s taking care of other people, angel with a dirty face? But I’m mostly thinking B.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        AV, you’re way ahead of me in terms of knowing the finer details of the different categories of narcissist, so I’m afraid I can’t help pinpoint the specifics, but well done on drilling further down into the options. We’re on the same page with MR and victim element 😉

        1. A Victor says:

          LET, thank you for the compliment though I’m not sure it’s warranted. I feel like I’m just guessing with the narcissists, empaths are easier for me, but I keep trying because the practice helps. I’ve had egg on my face more than a few times guessing narcs wrong! My pool to compare to is so limited, it’s one reason I love the lists so much, and the 20 Bullets option, but it’s fun to guess regardless.

          The Mid Rangers in particular are of interest because they’re so…sneaky and they’re also the most attracted to me, especially MMRA and B. So I keep trying!

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I can’t believe I didn’t see these comments earlier, but #Wordpress!

            It’s fun to try and guess the finer details of narc schools and cadres, and I think you have been much more thorough in seeking out that information in regard to the narcissists in your life. I haven’t had the same compunction as all the signs are there and it wouldn’t matter to me how they were classified, knowing they are narcissists is enough. Having said that, when I was finally given the opportunity to do one on the most recent narc his school and cadre helped me make more sense of the enormous impact he had on me. It all adds up, and I can see the usefulness in getting the finer details down so you can understand more clearly the basis for their behaviour and why it had the impact it did. Narcs are not all the same, much as empaths are not all the same, and I’m looking forward to reading HG’s new articles on the differences between us. A lot of people are curious about the narcissist’s take on how we present, as well as what our strengths and weaknesses might be. We have some insight, but there’s more information on some than others.

            I’m very sorry I missed your comment earlier x

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi LET,

            I wasn’t notified of your comment here either, not sure what’s going on but no problem, I’m just glad to have found it. Yes, when I submitted my ex’s NDC, I did not expect it to come back that he was a narc. So when it did, and he is the very kind that HG had told me months earlier was most drawn to me, I realized a huge gap in my understanding. It literally terrified me because I knew I had no idea how to spot that particular kind. So I’ve been focusing on that type, and the B’s also, ever since. I do spot them now more easily but I’ll never feel 100% confident, I will run any man I’m considering through a NDC just to be sure. And honestly, I don’t expect to ever be asked out by a normal or empath. I have come to realize that my way of interacting with people is not a way that normal men would like and I doubt an empathic man would like it either. I was molded to be perfect for a narc, ugh. I am working to change my way of interacting but it’s figuratively like pulling teeth, it makes me so uncomfortable and I don’t even see all the ways I need to be different. So, even with all my study, there is still such a long way to go. Anyway, I apologize, a little frustration at myself and my parents coming out there. Thank you for your comment, I always enjoy our conversations.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I never factored in the aspect of not even suspecting someone was a narc before doing the NDC, but I was aware that some of the outcomes took you by surprise. You also have a lifetime of experiences to deal with and the pain that comes from that.

            I’m hearing you on that front (not expecting someone to be a narcissist) and also on the front of not expecting to be asked out by a normal or empath. Some of us are perfectly moulded to be narc targets and victims due to our upbringing and empath type as well. You’ve stated it in a way that rests on expectations. What to expect and what not to expect. Don’t expect to attract normals/empaths, do expect to attract narcissists and even specific kinds. I really appreciate how you highlighted that element, even if it is frustrating.

            I understand your frustration, but you have made such great progress <3

            I enjoy our conversations, too 🙂

          4. A Victor says:

            Hi LET,

            It’s a matter of extremes, my ex was so much milder than either of my parents, so I did not see it. It also shows just how little I understood, even 5 or 6 months into learning here, it is such a challenging thing to absorb. I think I was in a little denial about him also because if he was a narc, it opened a whole bunch of other cans of worms, things I have been slowly facing since I’ve known the truth about him. That denial is such a real problem, often my first go to it seems.

            I hope the expectation part isn’t the wrong way to look at it, or made it seem negative. It was just kind of stating a fact for me, at this point. Maybe it will change.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, it is incredible how we don’t see until we are given the eyes to see these things. We wonder how we could have been so blind. I’ve shared here before how I spoke to the last narc about narcissism (Ha!) never having a clue that I was in the midst of a narcissistic entanglement with him … I felt like such a fool, but there was no denying it in the end. And we do struggle with denial as we see the impact it has on us but others around us as well. We’ve also let these narcs into their lives, or somehow compensated for them, you and I have both had children with them as well. That is something we’ll continue to come to terms with and hopefully manage as best we can.

            I didn’t think the ‘expectation’ part was the wrong way to look at it. I just thought it was an interesting and new perspective which has an element of truth to it. While we are still vulnerable we need to be aware we will potentially still suffer some of the negatives from our past (i.e. attracting narcissists) and will struggle to see how that could change (i.e. attract non-narcs). Maybe and hopefully it will change. That would be my thinking, too.

          6. A Victor says:

            I believe we are only allowed to see what we can handle, by our own brains if nothing else. It is a defense mechanism and one I have often been so grateful for. Had I seen everything at once, I would be…who knows where. Yes, denial kept me from seeing the damage that was happening to my children during and after the marriage. Now I see it, in bits, and it is heartbreaking for me. We do manage as best we can.

            Yes, I hope my expectation will change also, but at this time I have no expectation of that happening…😁.

        2. A Victor says:

          No, not easy ahead of you, struggling to learn! These are really tough for me but I continue to try because I want to get them right. #goals

  7. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Listened to it and loved it! Thank you very much, H.G.! 💖

  8. Asp Emp says:

    Muvver ‘slagged’ my paternal grandmother off to me regarding a gold watch that I was given when I was around 2 / 3 years old. Saying that it was selfish not to give my sister the same kind of gift (she still got one!). Muvver used to wear MY watch. Triangulated me with that for around 20 years. I got it eventually as a “gift”, it was mine anyway! Coincidently I got it around 6 months before my grandmother died. FFS. I have and had every right to hate muvver. Fkg b*tch.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      AspEmp, this obviously brings strong feelings out in you and I can see why. You were denied something that your Grandmother had given you on the basis that somehow you were being favoured, which isn’t true as your Grandmother had obviously selected a similar gift for your sister. To then take the gift from you speaks of her level of jealousy (inherent in the narcissist) and they will often try to take from you what they cannot have themselves.

      My mother also determined that I should not have anything my sister did not have and I remember one very unique and somewhat different circumstance in relation to that from the time I was a child.

      We had been walking to the local store with my mother on a windy and rainy day. My sister and I had both been given an umbrella which we used on our way to the shop. At one point the wind caught my sister’s umbrella and it must have been a strong gust because it broke her umbrella so it was practically useless. Seeing this, my mother took my umbrella from me and said that if my sister didn’t have an umbrella then I should not have one either. No notion of me sharing with her or perhaps bringing my sister under her umbrella (I’m sure she had one). I was to be the fall guy for the breakage of my sister’s umbrella. It sounds like a very minor thing, and it is compared to many people’s stories, but somehow mine always comes back to the insidious nature of the narcissist, and how in that moment my mother had found another opportunity to diminish me. It didn’t matter that I would get wet now as well, it was not possible for me to have something her ‘golden child’ didn’t have. I don’t know if anyone else can relate to that idea, of never being allowed to shine brighter than the golden child or have possessions they did not have, etc. It makes me curious as to whether you think your sister was favoured, or if you were just scapegoated in the circumstances, AspEmp. The two often go hand in hand.

      Hopefully your ET has come down a little since recounting that story, too xox

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LET, thank you for your response 🙂 Yes, I think I should have been given that when I turned 18. Muvver wore it to show off extravagance (grandiosity) because of the watch itself. I agree on your ‘jealousy’ because my grandmother did not seem to like muvver very much. I am not surprised to totally understand it now. I would have felt / thought the same if it were my son. No doubt her wearing it added to my internal anger.

        OMG. RE: your umbrella story, yes, OMG, basically similar happened to me / my sister. Ah, LET, reading from “of never being allowed to shine brighter than the ‘golden child’ didn’t have”…..yes, I do totally relate and I do understand what it feels like emotionally and mentally. Somehow, they ‘sensed’ ‘The Doormat’ within us, even if we ‘answered’ back, we were still ‘soft’ (easy to break down). Which, in turn, made us the more stronger for it too (as people now). God, our muvver’s are total and utter b*tches. Just a moment of raised ET, with a tinge of sadness because my grandmothers and my father did not do that. I did not deserve it. Neither did you. Yet, we turned out (eventually) to be one of the nicest people to have around. You got it totally right – sister favoured. My ET always comes down again, as it has now, since my typing a moment ago. Muvver is still a fkg b*tch. A dead one 😉

        Thank you for sharing your story here. It is good to read it and relate to, LET 🙂 xx

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          AspEmp, so glad you could relate to that experience, but only in the sense it’s helpful to have someone else who can identify with it. Neither of us deserved it, and somehow it has helped to make us stronger in the sense we both must have an underlying ‘fighting spirit’ that understood we were being ‘wronged’ and could see the injustice in that. Of course, it’s just confusion at the start … “why is this happening”, “what did I do”, “how come I am less deservering”, “why do I need to compete”, and so on. You are being given a message, but you don’t know why. You just know that you should not set your expectations too high because the narcissist will always attempt to destroy your hopes and dreams. We learn to greet life with a sense of “foreboding joy” – that is joy that can be stolen from you at any moment if the narcissist deems it necessary.

          Sometimes it seems like very few people would understand the pain and anger we carry with us when it comes to the parental narcissist, but I assure you I can relate to your last few words after reassuring that your ET has come down. I’ve been known to express the thought “she’s never going to die” about my mother because that is the sense I have. She will continue to torment me, even though I am now no contact and have been for a long time. The only way I will truly be free is when HG suggests that will happen – when she is dead. I won’t mourn her, I will be glad.

          Thank you for sharing, too, AspEmp <3 It means a lot to have others understand xox

          1. Asp Emp says:

            LET, a great way to word it “You are being given a message, but you don’t know why”. I liked “foreboding joy”- I understand exactly what you mean 🙂 A really good paragraph to read.

            RE: your second paragraph, yes, I agree with you. I do empathise with you RE: your maternal narcissist. I am sorry that you have ‘endure’ that “residue” until she dies. I have to admit by reading your words about ‘mourn’ and gladness – I can just imagine you, if you went, attending the funeral in brightly coloured clothes, skipping away, with the mantra “The witch is dead” 😉 But, knowing you, you may “play” it down a lot. It’s the thought that counts 😉

            For the time being, have you considered using HG’s ‘A Letter to the Narcissist’? Just let your tongue loose and say whatever you need 😉

            I know exactly how you are feeling and wish I could do more to alleviate your ‘burden’. I know that, in the meantime, you will continue to work on your ‘re-programming’ and toughening of your defences.

            Know that you are listened to and understood. You are more than welcome, LET 🙂 xx

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, thank you for your kind words and suggestion <3

            There is an element of "endurance" involved, so thank you also providing the word that was needed in this context. I've mourned other people's parent's who meant more to me, and that's saying something – mostly about the lack of connection involved when it comes to my own mother. It's actually quite disconcerting to think you are looking forward to the permanent end of relationship in the context of death. I've said here before, at one time in my life I could never imagine such a thing with regard to my parent's. That was before the impact of the narcissistic dynamic hit me with full force. At times, I wish I could feel differently. Then I remember my mother will never change, has no capacity for change, and never truly loved me. In that sense, there will be nothing to mourn, except maybe the mother I never had.

            She originally wanted to donate her body to science. I talked her out of it, on the basis it disallowed a proper period of mourning for others, but it's an indication of how she views even her own life and any mourning to take place at its end. She's within her rights, of course, but it highlights for me that element of disconnect she feels. If I was a narcissist, I might delight at the thought of her being carved up for the sake of science. Perhaps she's returned to her original idea since I've been no contact. Maybe I won't even be informed when she dies. It's very hard to know at this stage what the circumstances might be when the time comes. I'd hope to know, just so I can put the whole thing to rest for good.

            I hadn't thought about the "Letter to the Narcissist", but that's a good idea as a way of getting it all out there. The letters I have read here are incredibly moving and speak for so many of us. Thanks for reminding me, AspEmp x

            Thank you, too, for your encouragement once again 🙂 I really appreciate it.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            LET, that says a lot, that you have mourned other people “who meant more”. I can totally understand that. I was really upset when a really lovely & kind guy died and the impact of that was far, far more than muvver’s passing. He was non-judgemental, accepted me as I am – it was purely platonic, he was such a laugh. That Lesser did not like the friendship we had, he showed no sympathy towards this guy – in fact, he was downright nasty towards him when he was alive but dying of an illness.

            In time, you will feel less of the ‘mourn’ for the mother you never ‘had’. I think by the time ‘comes’ you will feel differently because you already think differently about her.

            LET, forgive me, I started laughing when I read the start of your next paragraph. Donating her body to….Science?! Oh, they’ll have a field day with that body, albeit it will be a very short day (maybe less than an hour – miaow) 😉

            I do and can understand where you say that you would rather know RE: her passing. I am sure you will be informed, somehow and by someone. You’d be able to ‘slam’ that door as soon as you know. I believe you will also ‘sense’ that ‘burden’ and some of that residue leave you as soon as you know for a fact. I sensed similar as soon as I got the text message from my sister (even though I had ‘sensed’ both grandmother and muvver around 10 – 15 minutes before the text arrived). Now, that, is Twilight Zone stuff (and still relevant to Narcsite) 😉

            RE: letter to narcissist. I wrote mine when I was pissed and with very high ET. I re-read it the next day before posting it. Regardless, I ‘felt’ and ‘thought’ the same. It has remained the same now. But I look at it as a ‘fk u’, without getting emotional about it, never mind thinking about it. It is a simple ‘fk u’ and swipe left.

            I am glad you feel some encouragement and do what you need to do for yourself. Always more than happy to support you (you help me too, grealtly 🙂 ), thank you, LET 🙂 xx

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, I have to admit I was shocked when my mother suggested donating her body – it’s one of those grey areas for me where you once again question the narcissist’s motives – did she intend to ‘deny’ us by donating her body (i.e. removing our right to grieve), was it a truly altruistic sentiment (likely not when it comes to the narcissist), or does she see that as part of her “legacy”, somehow living on past her ‘use by date’ (a little too creepy for me to want to imagine).

            Thanks for your thoughts around her eventual passing, not how I would want or ever imagined things would be, but it’s interesting you sensed the passing of both your mother and grandmother having very different experiences and perceptions of them both. One loving, one not, yet somehow you were finally tuned to the passing of both. I definitely have the concept of ‘release’ in my mind, and I wonder if I will know or sense when I have been released. I do know I have no need to say goodbye. Everything that could or should be said has already been said in silence. It speaks louder than words.

            The ‘fk u’ and swipe left is the place we’d all like to get, I’m sure. Putting the thoughts down on paper probably help us to get to that place. I’m definitely going to give the idea some consideration as a means of catharsis. Most of the time I forget she exists and I’m sure she does the same with me – out of narcissist’s sight, out of narcissist’s mind. My forgetfulness is a purely self protective or defensive mechanism – I need to distance myself from her, so the less I think about her, the better. I have plenty of other things to focus on that help me do that as well.

            Always appreciate your support, AspEmp, and thank you for your thoughtfulness again, too <3 xox

          5. Asp Emp says:

            LET, OMG, I missed your reply! Fooking technology!

            I understand RE: the body and your thoughts around it. Interesting that you suggest the ‘legacy’ and living past the use by date’ (that cracked me up to be honest 🙂 ). Consider this, maybe she can ‘sense’ her creature despite being unaware of what she is, is that the reason she says about donating it to science? She’ll never get the ‘answer’ whether she is living, or not. A body is just a ‘husk’ after someone dies. I know I may be coming across as uncaring – because of what you endured under her “care”.

            RE: my grandmother / mother – I smelt them both being present at muvver’s passing. I smelt flowers – I was not wearing any perfume, nothing in the flat (the home I lived in) had that ‘smell’.

            I think you have learned enough to understand about yourself to know the best way forward for yourself. Being in NC is good. Maybe write a “letter” the next time you feel the need to write something down, you do not necessarily need to send it anywhere, burn it, send it to HG. Or, you could consider a consult with HG instead of writing the letter ‘option’.

            Or, just write a comment on here and let it all out. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, LET, much appreciated 🙂 xx.

          6. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, “fooking technology” is right!

            No worries about the missed reply, I have been playing catch up as well. Time gets away from me sometimes, as do the notifications x

            I’ve had more thoughts around my mother’s idea of donating her body and your suggestion about the “Creature” is an interesting one. I wonder which well known psychopaths/narcissists ever donated their bodies/brains and what was discovered? The “Creature” will remain a hidden element, as it only exists in the mind or thoughts. The brain may show up differences like it does on an MRI, but in a more direct physical sense.

            I thought it’s possible she said it to get a reaction – pure fuel for the narcissist. If you think about it, not many people donate their bodies to science or are so casual about mentioning it. She might have done it for shock value. I just had this image in my mind of my mother, or parts of her, floating in vats of formalin and the indignity of that.

            Of course, science relies on these things to keep moving forward and she also may have thought that was a way of obtaining a legacy where her body was put to use of some kind. I know there is an argument in favour of this, and I won’t dispute that, much like donating organs as well, and it is her body, but I found it difficult to imagine how I would come to terms with her demise if I considered her just a piece of meat for scientific use or discovery.

            You and I have had a similar experience of smelling an aroma at someone’s passing. It somehow makes it more significant, though I’m not sure how you might see the significance of experiencing both the scent of your mother and your grandmother at your mother’s passing.

            It’s very hard to predict how we’ll react when the time comes, and I’m more likely to want to share in terms of the written word – as in Letter to My Narcissist – when that time comes. For now, I’m going to continue focusing on my family (children) and the celebrations over the Easter weekend <3

            Thanks for your encouraging words once again, AspEmp xox

          7. Asp Emp says:

            Hi LET 🙂

            What I have been doing is copying and pasting the comment link onto a word document and check into that, if WP, nor email notifications come through.

            Yes, I agree about the MRI scans showing a difference in the brain ‘patterns’. There has been a couple of programmes about that on tv. It is interesting how science has progressed into this, then again, it is still relatively recent ‘research’. Maybe one day in the distant future, HG may consider having his brain scanned in this way because his mind is quite remarkably different.

            LET, laughing…..RE: the vats. Thank you for the amusement 🙂

            I agree that organs being donated would be for a good cause. Yet her body for science, she may have got the ‘bigoted’ thought that any scientist would have any interest whatsoever in her body.

            Yes, I thought it was strange about the scent of my grandmother / mother at the same time. It is one of those things that ‘happened’ and cannot really be explained. Some people may poo-poo the suggestion. Others are devout believers.

            It was not a shock to me because I had seen her in hospital and I knew she was close to death. I felt relief more than anything really – like the ‘You Wear Guilt’ main noose had been severed but residue remained (repressed until I came to KTN). Good on you and your mindset (where you are now) 🙂

            I hope you had a great time with your children over the Easter weekend 🙂 Ditto, LET, RE: encouraging. Thank you 🙂 X

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, great minds think alike 🙂 I occasionally note down a thread on a word document I have created in order to go back to it as necessary. That way WP can’t have the last word in terms of notifications and I hopefully won’t be neglecting anyone either.

            From what I recall, HG did say he’d had a brain scan done, though he did not share anything in relation to the results. That is private medical information, so I can understand that.

            When it comes to my mother, perhaps she wants to think her body will be of some use after she dies, but I doubt it will lead to any new discoveries. Most likely it’s purpose would be to enable medical students to practice their craft which is also necessary. Hardly dignified in that sense, but she might imagine being thanked for it (and I don’t mean that in a derogatory sense to anyone who is thinking of doing the same).

            I don’t “poo poo” the idea of your experience with your mother/grandmother, AspEmp. I know what you mean, though, and not everyone will accept supernatural experiences as being legitimate. It must have been a relief to finally feel that noose being cut and the residue from having worn it so long can take time to dissipate. Certainly with HG’s help we can move the process on with greater effect <3

            We had a lovely weekend, thanks AspEmp, and the Easter Bunny didn't let me down 🙂 xox

          9. Asp Emp says:

            LET, laughing at “WP can’t have the last word” – damn right 😉

            I giggled at “but I doubt it will lead to any new discoveries” and “to enable medical students to practice their craft” – yum, the choice of words 🙂

            Thank you for not ‘poo-pooing’ my experiences.

            Glad to read that you had a good Easter weekend, sounds like you got some well-earned treats 🙂 x

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Didn’t want to interrupt your conversation with Asp Emp, but I thought your comment about your mother donating her body to medical science was interesting.

            The first thing I thought was that the body donation was a pity play and future fake. I understand why you are thinking deeper into it, but I honestly think that she said that just for the reaction from you. She wanted to hear how people would wish to visit her after she passed, to mourn to grieve etc. she wanted you to stop her from doing it so she could listen to the protestations.

            She would know your feelings about grief, mourning etc because you have a faith. It was a way of removing something from you. You couldn’t have her emotionally whilst alive and you might not even get her when she’s dead. There’s an element of grandiosity about it too I think.

            If you had said that you thought donation was a good idea, you might have seen more pity play. “Well it’s not as though any of my family would come and visit me is it?” Really, she couldn’t fail. The comment would garner fuel no matter what your response might have been.

            Your mum sounds sly. I can understand why her passing would offer relief to you. The chance to finally close the book on it. It doesn’t sound harsh or strange to me. It’s sounds normal to not want to have to think about it any more.

            The same goes for Asp’s reaction to her muvver’s death. There’s a right to feel anger and to be relieved at muvver’s passing because it signified being free of her. She didn’t deserve a single tear. She wasn’t just absent, she was cruel but in a very underhanded way.

            You both deserved far better and you both know that you did. You couldn’t do right for doing wrong and I think you are entitled to look forward to and be grateful for the finality of the end point that death brings.

            I think Asp’s suggestion of writing a letter is a good idea, or alternatively buy a day pass to a gym, get the boxing gloves on and beat the crap out of the punch bag. Have her in your mind’s eye and let rip. If you lose it completely, that’s fine, go to a different gym next time! Getting your emotions out physically can work really well. I keep a tight reign on mine, but the punchbag gets it on a regular basis !


          11. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for the mention and for taking my shared experiences about muvver into consideration. It was good to read 🙂

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, so glad you decided to share your thoughts here and thank you for offering them up <3

            No doubt my mother would have enjoyed hearing the protestations, but your second paragraph hit the nail on the head for me. It was about 'denial', or removing something from us, much like someone might be left out of their parent's will. The expectation is that we will have an opportunity to mourn and that a body will be treated in some sacred manner. You are correct in that sense to also focus on my beliefs. She does not see any value in them, at the same time an outright rejection doesn't necessarily lead to the idea of donating your body to science. She was going to deprive us and perhaps imagine our distress at the notion of what it could mean. This, of course, is putting the worst case scenario on her intentions. The fact she is a narcissist, it's not hard to do. There is always an ulterior motive, even if she isn't aware of it herself.

            My mother is sly and that's where the element of an unaware narcissist is hard to understand sometimes. How can her behaviours not be calculated? They so often appear designed to hurt. Every now and again I get my head around it – the lack of awareness – but sometimes it still stings as I continue to feel it on a very personal level (i.e. take it personally).

            Thank you for saying that relief at a parent's passing doesn't sound strange to you <3 It's hard to come to terms with the fact that is how I feel as it is not normal for an empath to feel that way, as in it goes against our empathic nature. When it comes to the narcissist, I've learnt my empathy makes no difference to them, so in that sense I'm not denying her anything if I was not to grieve, or even be relieved.

            We have all variety of mother's here for the mauling and we all pay a very high price. I like the idea of the punching bag, and I see how keeping a tight rein on things doesn't have to mean you don't have an opportunity to also let it go! I actually came across someone who conducted "axe throwing" classes as a means of getting it out of your system 😛 Pin their picture to the wall and just send an axe in their direction. It's amazing how versatile can be the ways of ridding ourselves of our angst xox

          13. Asp Emp says:

            LET and TS, ladies, reading the parts about applying physical frustration as a means of letting go…..I have a sledge hammer in the garage and it does do a good job of “minimising” faulty appliances, if they needed minimising (laughing). Unwanted bricks are a good ‘source’ too ;-). I have not had the need to use the sledge hammer for a couple of years, which, to me, is a good sign 🙂

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, sounds like you have fun in your garage 🙂 Sledgehammer away!

            Though, by the sounds of things, you haven’t needed to exert yourself as much lately.

            That’s a very good sign and I’m glad to hear it <3

          15. Asp Emp says:

            LET, I thought about my sledgehammer yesterday because of HG’s video ‘The House of Tudor’ and thought about getting a couple of stickers, one for the sledgehammer (triangulation)… a way of apology to the hammer for not having a reason to use it 😉

          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hahah, AspEmp, it must be feeling left out 😛 At least it is ‘literally’ an appliance xox

          17. Asp Emp says:

            It’s a tool, LET, not an appliance 😉

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            You’re very welcome. I’ve learned a lot and you have given me food for thought through sharing your story.


          19. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you, TS. Much appreciated. 🙂

          20. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for your gracious response to my thoughts. As you know I often feel strange commenting within ACON discussions, but I do read, I do empathise, and I do learn an awful lot from them.

            Yes, I know what you mean about ‘sly’, that description does suggest a planning or an awareness when the unaware narcissist responds only in that moment. They do store up thoughts and information though, your faith, your respect for a family’s right to grieve (or not!) your respect full stop. I see you going through the motions in the event of your mothers passing. The need for things to be done right, as they should be, a respect for family and their thoughts about your mother no matter how misplaced any affection might be. A job well done, but the relief that it’s finally over and no sadness. I think that’s the mark of the person you are. No doubt your mother would store that also. Me too. I still forget the lack of planning aspect and it does sound so very strange.

            They’re sly in that they are passive aggressive. That to me epitomises sly. If you have something to say, say it, out with it, don’t sit and snipe, insinuate or take pot shots. Come at me for goodness sake! I think you’re right, it’s the facade that makes them that way.

            The axe throwing did make me laugh. How brilliant, I love that idea! Sign me up! Weekly! Haha!

            I’m laughing to myself now, not sure how I have gone down this train of thought. If you were a narc, what narc would you be? Haha! I think I’d be in serious danger of being a lesser! I’m not in the top 5% so I’d end up being unaware. If I’m unaware, I’m going to be a wrecking ball. Why not? I am actually entertaining myself now thinking about this. Elite, I’d definitely be elite. I read too much to be Somatic. Although, I would definitely have a six pack and arms like Popeye! I’m showing my age there. Ok, an old Lesser Elite narcissist, prone to asserting control through withdrawal with killer abs, a smart mouth and a beer fridge in my woman cave / bolt hole. I deserve a woman cave I think. Do you think I could get away with fairy lights in there or is that a bit empathy? I’ll stop, I’m enjoying my narc alter ego a little too much. Time to eat the last choc ice out of the freezer…….


          21. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I think your empathy is more than adequate to enable you to join any conversation here, and people should not think because an experience is not their own they have no right to comment on it. The fact is, as empaths we are well able to put ourselves in others shoes, and even as normals would still be able to garner a perspective on these things. It makes me think of how my NEX would triangulate me with ‘only’ children … that came up early on here and you mentioned then, long ago, you were an only child. It’s a scenario I have never experienced and he thought it was a way of separating or diminishing me by way of comparison (i.e. I wouldn’t understand). The truth is, it was just a ploy to cover his tracks when he occasionally became uncommunicative, or when he wanted to triangulate me with others (including my nemesis – “the snake” – who was also an only child. SHE would understand, be in tune, accept, etc. What a load of bollocks! They were both self centred creatures and used that as an excuse, which I know for a fact you don’t do xox

            Kind of got off track there, but it was to say that I never even consider whether someone is an ACON in terms of whether they understand or could have something to say about it. You are perfectly entitled to speak and also perfectly capable of understanding. Your empathy allows that and even encourages it <3

            Thank you for getting it in terms of how I experienced my mother's notion (donation) and how that would have impacted me. At the time, even though on many occasions she had hurt me deeply, I still held that love and respect which meant I would only have done, or wanted to do, what that kind of esteem would entail. I didn't know she was a narcissist, but had experienced all the fallout from that. I still wanted to show that love and respect when she died.

            My, how the tables have turned. I think my last relationship really sealed the deal on that one. Finding HG allowed me to see and also give me permission to let go what I had already put aside, in terms of my relationship with my mother. She put the nail in that coffin herself when I became aware of her manipulating my children and triangulating them with me.

            Passive aggressive sums it up and I'd rather take one on the chin any day!

            Haha, to your 'alter ego', TS 😛 I'd struggle to see you as a Lesser, though I do respect your thoughts on how you might fit the category with a laid back attitude and desire to enjoy life, too. Sounds good! LOL to the fairy lights 🙂 Not quite sure how they'd fit with beer swilling, but empaths will understand <3

            Hope you enjoyed the choc ice xox

          22. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the ACON / non ACON discussions. Enough said, next time I’ll monitor myself less. Xx

            I have started monitoring my comments of late. There have been a few threads recently where I started to comment, then deleted and thought “No, that could be misinterpreted, I’ll leave it.” I used to self check my comments a lot at the start, the residual influence of the online narc. Then I settled here and stopped self monitoring. Now I self check again, and if you self monitor too much, you get to the point where there is no point in taking part, which is a little where I’m at with things at the moment. I have a few things going on just now and am a bit overwhelmed, stressed out. I think that’s impacting me quite a lot.

            Totally agree. Your mum attempting to influence your kids would be a red rag to a bull for me too. That takes things to a whole new level and the gloves would automatically come off. If I hadn’t turned already that would be a sure fire way to make it happen.

            Laughing at your thoughts on me as a Lesser. Who am I trying to kid? My beer fridge would be filled with iced coffee and green juice, I would have the fairy lights and scented candles on every night and, there would be cushions. Lots, of cushions. You can’t have a girl cave without cushions. Everyone knows that.

            The more I listen to HG’s analysis of Heard and Pinkett Smith, the more I really dislike the Mid Rangers. I think that’s where my Lesser idea comes from. At least Lessers are more up front with it. So unfiltered you could almost laugh at what they come out with. I struggle to find a redeeming feature in the Mid Rangers now. Nothing to do with my exes either, rather, now that I understand how they operate, I just find them pathetic.

            Johnny Depp is doing well I think. He is being himself and ignoring her. Can’t fault him! Haha!


          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I followed my instinct on the notion of you possibly second guessing yourself and thought the other side of the coin might be that you just wanted to be respectful and acknowledge that was not your experience. I think both have validity, but the second guessing is something I sensed, which is why I wrote what I did. I value your thoughts and your sharing. There will often be someone who can relate and be thankful that their own thoughts are being shared. We can’t afford to lose important voices xox

            I hear you on having a few things going on and feeling a bit overwhelmed <3

            It happens and sometimes we need to withdraw slightly to also deal with our own stuff. You've obviously dealt with a lot in the past and have found the ability to do what needed to be done and keep moving forward. I hope your resilience will give you what you need to meet the latest struggles and know that this is also a place of support. I'm hopeful your consult with HG will also benefit you with whatever you are going through x

            My kids are the line in the sand when it comes to narcissists. Enough said.

            The "girl cave" is beginning to sound a little more empathic, and a little more luxurious 😉 Cushions, yes! Candles, yes. Fairy lights, definitely. Can we have low lighting, calming music and a kettle, too, for tea and sympathy? I'm a hot drink girl when I need some comfort <3 You can always change it up when you're in the mood to party xox

            I'm with you on the Mid-Rangers. I can't tolerate them at all and hope to give them a wide berth going forward. The Lessers can be a laugh, and I also appreciate their more straightforward nature. No filters, no facade. At least you know what you are getting. I'll forgo the Lower Lesser with their propensity to violence, though. I can see why you would lean toward Lesser with the more honest perspective they can provide and the lack of 'back doors', which is what we find with all the others. At least the Greaters have some charm about them, but their malice is not something you would want to entertain.

            Oh dear, Johnny Depp does not have my sympathy in the same way he has yours … though I do think it's important that Amber Heard isn't able to play the victim in the scenario and must also be called out on her own behaviour. She's not innocent and there is no doubt she aimed to push his buttons to get him to react, which he did. If this was an effort to clear his name, though, I feel it has significantly backfired as we see two adults behaving badly and out of control at times. It is not edifying at all, and the case should have been kept behind closed doors. I'm not sure why it's been turned into a media circus. Of course, we have court reporting, but to televise this 'trash' is disturbing to me. Perhaps it's better in some ways we get to see it ourselves and don't need to rely on the opinions of others. It's one of those 'car crash' relationships and we are being exposed to the minute details of that crash. I just can't be drawn into this one for some reason. I do see many people second guessing their original assessment of Depp, so it will be interesting to see what HG concludes.

            That being said, I better wander over to YT to see what HG has been up to 😉 x

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You’re instincts were correct. A mixture of the two. Xx

            Thank you, hopefully things will resolve themselves positively over the next couple of weeks. It’s a waiting game more than anything else, patience isn’t my strong suit haha!

            You raised the bar with the music in the cave, yes something chill yet atmospheric. Philip Ayers, something like that. The kettle goes without saying. I’m fully addicted but largely immune to caffeine. My pre workout drink would put most people in hospital I think haha!

            I know what you mean about Johnny Depp. I would say Contagion empath strong Saviour element or vice versa. It isn’t clear cut for me either though. Empath or not, if he did hit Amber Heard then there are no excuses for that. I’d find it very difficult to defend him in that scenario even if he is an empath and she a narc.

            I do think she followed him repeatedly provoking him though, not letting him leave. A Contagion would really struggle with that, any man would struggle with that. Vile behaviour on her part and I think he has been backed into a corner if he has hit her. Everyone has a limit. She might have found his.

            I know what you mean, this feels more sordid and far more intrusive than the Will Smith / Jada scenario.

            Thank you again for your further thoughts and for understanding me so well.


          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I thought it would be good to provide the other perspective in terms of being respectful because I know that would be on most empaths minds as well <3 We try to do the right thing, that is our nature, but that nature also calls for us to be true to ourselves as well. Empathic trait of 'honesty'? Like anything, a balance to be found and we work towards that constantly x It's where we need to determine both giving the benefit of the doubt and hoping others will do the same for us.

            Don't judge me … I've got no idea who Phil Ayers is 😛 He might be my cup of tea …

            And for God's sake, what do you put in your workout drink? It must be strong!

            Does it put hairs on your chest? 😉

            Yes, I agree this trial feels far more sordid and intrusive than Jada and Will, and I have a gut reaction to the awful revelations coming out between bad 'language', bad behaviour, lack of self control, drug and alcohol abuse, but mostly the way they have hung eachother out to dry in full view of the public with all the meanness and ugliness that entails. Like I said somewhere else, it hurts my empath heart to hear these things and to know what both these people endured and also put one another through. It's like "The War of the Roses", unedifying and disturbing to me.

          26. Asp Emp says:

            LET, it’s been years since I last watched ‘War of the Roses’, it is very tame compared to what is coming out RE: Will & Jada; Johnny & Amber. I thought it was interesting that there are suggestions that the Johnny & Amber story seemingly being worse than the Will & Jada. Will has been in a marriage for over 20 years, how long was Johnny married to Amber for? On Will’s part, it appears more insidious because it is not as apparent to other people outside, not even to Will himself. Johnny appears to be more aware of what had happened ie understanding the behaviours because Amber is more ‘visual’ with her manipulations. Johnny seems to be more ‘switched’ on compared to Will, what is the main difference between to the two men? There is only around 5 years in age difference between them, so that can be ‘ruled’ out. Has Johnny had more therapy compared to Will? Will’s relationship has not been as public as Johnny’s to Amber. Will’s father; Johnny’s mother being the abusers. There are quite significant differences between the two couples. The only similarity is both the wives are the narcissist in the relationship. Will’s ‘scenario’ as depicted through HG’s videos impacted me a great deal, Johnny’s case, not so much because he appears stronger than Will.

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, thanks for adding your perspective on the differences in these two relationships. They are very different, and no one comes out looking well from either of them. Will Smith because of ‘the slap’, and you may have read my perspective on that if we consider him to be an empath, and Johnny Depp because he has chosen to air his dirty laundry in public, though at this point I don’t see him as an empath.

            Johnny may appear to be stronger than Will because he is not an empath.

            I also believe Amber Heard has suffered in a way Jada Pinkett Smith has not.

            I don’t perceive an element of personal violence in the Smith’s marriage the way I do in Depp’s marriage to Heard. Will Smith definitely appears to be more of a victim, though all the people concerned appear to have been victimised in their childhood. It’s what makes us narcs and empaths. That fine line where genetics also plays a part, and looking at these two relationships we can see how different the outcomes can be. I’m no expert (that’s why I’m here), but I do rely on my gut instinct as an empath and I think we are seeing two very different kinds of relationships, my guess is narc on narc for the Depp-Heard fiasco. It’s far too volatile to involve an empath.

          28. Asp Emp says:

            LET, I understand and respect your perspectives where Johnny is concerned. I suggest that Johnny is pretty ‘clued’ up on what Amber is and the fact he has been away from her, he has strength to “deal” with her over the court process. He could have high narcissistic traits, but not a narcissist (in my opinion and from watching a couple of short videos of the court process), he has not shown any emotional ‘outbursts’, or ‘outpourings’ whilst in court. He does, appear to have an idiosyncratic sense of humour, which he manages (just!) to control. Maybe he is a sensitive (caring) person but not Geyser like, if you can understand?

            I also understand why you may suggest narc on narc where Depp / Heard are concerned. Is Johnny somebody with a high level of cognitive empathy but has lower levels of emotional empathy? Does he display compassionate empathy? Is he a Co-Dependent, with some Contagion (hence the drugs from when he was around 11 or so?). Interestingly, when I watched him in the ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’ film, I did wonder whether he had been ‘smoking’ and, apparently he was during filming. Does he have more Carrier and Magnet than Saviour?

            In any case, I look forward to HG’s analysis on Johnny. What I do know is that Johnny was abused by his mother, hence his drug-taking to deal with the ‘residual’ pain from his childhood.

            Sorry it took a while for a reply to your comment. Good to read what you have to say, LET, thank you 🙂

          29. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, the respect goes both ways, and I honestly didn’t have an opinion on Johnny Depp one way or the other when the trial started. I knew Amber Heard was found to be truthful about the violence she suffered at the hands of Depp at the conclusion of the trial in the UK. I never followed it and didn’t particularly like her, assuming she was determined to make Johnny out to be the ‘bad guy’ for her own purposes (woman scorned, whatever). So, I wasn’t particularly sympathetic to either of them.

            What has changed my mind, or finally filtered through, is the testimony given by Amber Heard. My gut instinct tells me she is telling the truth about the assaults he perpetrated on her and her description of domestic violence matches some of my own experiences. There is an element of ‘dissociation’ about her testimony which HG puts down to her narcissism. While there could be a connection (since I am not an expert on narcissism), I believe these elements of dissociation are based on trauma. People in abusive situations will find something outside of themselves to focus on as a means of enduring extreme trauma. Amber remembers what the manager in the caravan park was wearing because she was still in a state of shock. Those details would normally be overlooked, but they are burned into the mind of someone who has experienced trauma. Irrelevant details are noted, like the style of the wallpaper on the wall during a sexual assault, as a means of blocking the trauma out. The instance of Amber’s dog stepping on a bee could also be burned into her mind on that occasion. Irrelevant to the proceedings, but seared into the memory.

            When she said she felt no pain when Johnny was basically raping her with a bottle, this can also be accounted for if it’s tied in with an element of dissociation. Something else I shared here where an ACON described not feeling the pain of her mother’s beating, but seeing the pieces of the book being used to give her that beating flying all around her while at the same time noticing her younger brother sitting on the floor in distress a few feet away. It’s possible to zone out from the pain and think the kind of thoughts Amber thought – “I hope it’s not the broken one”. I see this as valid testimony and can relate to some of her experiences which I mentioned elsewhere.

            Every one of the scenarios she described are believable to me, and it was gut wrenching to have to hear them. The moments she described Johnny as not being there anymore, as though someone or something had taken his place. How we long for the return of Dr Jekyll when we suddenly find ourselves confronted with Mr. Hyde. Her attempt to try to let him know it was her, and the maniacal bashing of the phone against the wall, as if it was her he was smashing to pieces and not the phone while he screamed at her. That sounds like a major ignition of fury, in fact all these instances do, and no doubt drink and drugs will have affected his ability in terms of control.

            I’m biting the bullet on this one, and regardless of Johnny Depp’s outcome I believe he assaulted and abused Amber Heard, on the basis of which he can rightfully be called a “wife beater” … I don’t see how he can win this case either.

          30. Asp Emp says:

            LET, firstly, thank you (respect) 🙂 x

            I’d agree with you RE: disassociation. Abused children will learn to do that, without understanding what it is they are doing. That can lead to them growing up and not ‘unlearn’ that coping mechanism they had developed. Some become aware of it and understand why they did it (ie empowered with knowledge empaths, or, even continue to do so = both narcissists and empaths? It is probably similar to the day-dreaming / imaginary friends that starts as a young child. What is interesting though, is that it is not something that is taught. It seems to be part of the survival / instinctual ‘responses’.

            Yes, I’d agree with what you say in regard to victims and trauma ie blocked out etc. Mine was not necessarily blocked out, it was mentally and emotionally ‘trapped’, and I found a way to release it, examine it and put it away, fully aware of it’s impact that had haunted me for a life time. Narcissists cannot do that because it is hermetically sealed in within themselves. Amber is unconsciously using avoidance tactics via her instincts.

            I recall reading HG’s video on Amber’s childhood, and about her father’s behaviours. There is a possibility that her father carried out some abuse that we will never know about because she would just re-write the history of what happened, ie using that into something that she says Johnny did but did not actually do. Her father had abused animals too. This is where I think, her “idea” of shitting the bed ‘stems’ from.

            I understand what you mean RE: Johnny smashing the phone against the wall. I’d be inclined to suggest Johnny reacted in the same way as Will Smith did when he slapped Chris Rock? No rational thought, no logical thinking, pure instinctual response.

            Yes, drink / drugs can add to the mental / emotional responses. I’d like to add here that, apparently, Amber’s sister revealed about her drink ‘issue’ in court. When I saw that video online, I wondered what Amber’s sister is (ie narcissist, or empath).

            It is good to be able to discuss this in the way we are doing. Thank you, LET and we will just have to wait (with much patience) for HG’s analysis on Johnny 🙂

          31. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, thank you for sharing more of your thoughts with me x

            Childhood trauma will have had an affect on both people involved (Johnny and Amber). In this instance, I’m not talking about childhood trauma, but trauma experienced as an adult. My contention may be that a narcissist – as HG has deemed Amber Heard to be – can still experience trauma and require a response to that.

            This is a question that has not been posed before as far as I know – how does a narcissist experience trauma? They cannot be immune to the possibility.

            My other contention is that abuse is abuse is abuse. In that sense, it matters not if Amber Heard is a narcissist, she has been physically abused and is entitled to say so as well as be offered sympathy for her experiences. The difficulty appears to be whether she is to be believed. I believe her.

            If you see the video of Depp raging in the kitchen of their home or hotel, slamming cupboards, breaking glass, smashing a bottle down on the table after filling his glass with wine, challenging her after she questions him, these are the antics of someone out of control, quite threatening and likely to be abusive. Where some might see alcohol or drug induced rage, I see narcissistic fury.

            Her sister’s testimony indicates more of Johnny’s controlling behaviour, and interestingly he also admitted in the the UK trial that he felt the need to control what she wore:

            “The 57-year-old star — who confessed he “can be jealous” — told London’s High Court that he would fight with his now-ex over her “pretty girl image,” which he repeatedly begged her to tone down, according to the Evening Standard.

            “I told her she didn’t have to be naked in films, you don’t have to do that,” Depp reportedly said, also asking Heard not to wear sexy outfits to premieres.

            He accused of “actress bulls–t” in saying she didn’t want to be objectified while still looking sexy and starring in “the same type of films” against his advice, the UK paper said.

            “If she didn’t want to be objectified … I thought it best she try to be a little more reserved in her approach to her films and her approach to how she presents herself in public,” he told the court Tuesday, according to the report.

            “I would never tell her what to wear but I would certainly make mention if I thought what she was wearing was going completely against the grain of what she told me her wishes were,” he said.”

            The hallmark of a narcissist.

            Her sister describes how Amber deteriorated in the context of their relationship, and it once again displayed all the hallmarks of a narcissistic dynamic – panic attacks, anxiety, sleeplessness, she was teary and couldn’t relax, she lost weight, became quieter and seemingly virtually a shell of her former self.

            Depp called her disgusting names – “f**king cu**, f**king used up trash bag, slimy wh**e, saggy wh**e. F**king cunt was thrown out a bunch.”

            He apparently cheated on her just after their wedding. Another hallmark of the narcissist.

            I guess I’m making two points here – Depp is a narcissist and he is also an abuser.

            In actual fact the two things go hand in hand, but interestingly Depp’s name was never mentioned in her article, which referred more to men and misogyny in general and her younger years as opposed to her time spent with Depp. Heard says the only person who made the Op-Ed about Johnny was Johnny himself. He sued the Sun newspaper after being called a “wife beater” and the outcome went against him. He wanted another bite of the cherry and to humiliate Amber Heard, making her relive the trauma he originally put her through, and of course the narcissist always has to win.

            My leaning towards the truthfulness of Heard’s testimony and that of her sister comes from my gut, as does my recognition of domestic violence in the context of a marriage. It’s a fact that provocation can occur igniting the fury of a narcissist, and I think that is what we are seeing. The phone smashing is a classic example. I do not believe we are seeing an empath in distress and a response to that, I think we are seeing and hearing the result of a full blown ignition of narcissistic fury. In the context of that, physical violence is not beyond the realms of possibility.

            In finishing, the whole trial rests on whether Amber Heard defamed Johnny Depp by penning an Op-Ed claiming to be a victim of domestic abuse. The Court in the UK found she was a victim and that her testimony was truthful. His name is not mentioned in the Op-Ed, and it is more representative of the need to speak out against such treatment and the fall out from that.

            “I had the rare vantage point of seeing, in real time, how institutions protect men accused of abuse.

            Imagine a powerful man as a ship, like the Titanic. That ship is a huge enterprise. When it strikes an iceberg, there are a lot of people on board desperate to patch up holes — not because they believe in or even care about the ship, but because their own fates depend on the enterprise.”

            I can only rest on HG’s article “Why Can’t They See It, Too?”

            It’s a classic representation of how the narcissist is able to pull the wool over people’s eyes so that the victim remains unseen and unheard.

            I know I’ve gone on a bit of a rant there, AspEmp, and it’s only to clarify my perspective, not to say that your own thoughts don’t have some validity if we try to look at things from a number of perspectives. For me it’s not about whether Amber Heard is a narcissist, or even Johnny Depp. It’s about whether she was abused, and I believe she was. In my opinion, Johnny Depp is not the victim here.

            I also appreciate the conversation and thank you, too, for opening it up x We are going to have to wait for further analysis from HG, and patience is the word 😉

          32. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Haha, no judgement. Philip Ayers is a recent discovery. I have a sneaking suspicion that Philip Ayers is actually HG. I wondered if he might bite if I threw the name out there, too obvious.

            I remember commenting on KHG ages ago ( I think it was on that side) that HG might compose music for films or video games.The specific mention of the speakers, the name Alastor, some of the weaponised empath names tie in with video games.

            HG works in a sound proofed office. I’m not being funny, but as an IPPS would you not find that strange? How many people do you know who work in a sound proofed office? Office, or studio? I don’t know any outside of Nashville. The keypad to get in has a musical code also.

            The countdown piece in KTN is an original piece. The composer of the most recent Patreon piece is Philip Ayers. I haven’t found any information at all about Philip Ayers, just the music. That’s odd too. Another contender would be Gabriel Lewis. (I like the name Gabriel). The general mood of Gabriel Lewis is very similar. Again, little on Gabriel Lewis, though there is one who is a member of an Australian band. Different guy though to the one who has released the music I have listened to. I think so anyway.‘Oh the Humanity’ feels like HG to me. As does ‘One Last Drama‘ by Ayers.

            HG was interested in the frisson conversation. He would be if he was composing. To bring out a heightened emotional response in a listener whilst they were playing a game or watching a film would be very useful. Interestingly, I did get mild frisson when listening to One Last Drama. A little, not a lot 😜

            If HG isn’t Philip Ayers, at least I found some new music I like!

            My pre workout drink haha! It contains 200-400 mg of caffeine depending how I make it. I don’t add much water, down in one so it’s speed of delivery and absorption into the blood rather than the caffeine content itself. It doesn’t put hairs on my chest ( cheeky!) though I did achieve my personal best on a narrow reverse grip lat pull down today. 110 lbs, not that far off pulling my own body weight now 😎💪😎. Bet HG doesn’t lat pull that much more. Rawrr. Challenge? Why not? Haha!


          33. lickemtomorrow says:

            Oh my, TS, this is a fascinating comment!

            The musical theme intrigues me, and I’m going to ponder that for a while. You have been searching in areas I have not even considered and are far beyond my expectations. Once upon a time I had thought HG could be Martin Gore – who apparently lives close to the Harkle’s in Montecito – but that was just a fleeting thought 😛 I guess the musical element had crossed my mind, but not to the same extent it has yours. Of course, you know I’m going to have to look into this and check out some Phil Ayers and Gabriel Lewis (never heard of him/them either!). The mind is a fascinating thing, and how ours work is truly fascinating. Imagine the Ultra.

            I didn’t know HG was interested in the ‘frisson’ conversation (can’t remember him commenting), but it has been part of my experience as long as I can remember. That will be something else I will focus on when I listen to the pieces you mention, though it seems we do have very different tastes in music 🙂

            Also, how did you know HG enters his study with a melody? I knew it was coded, but thought it would be a numeric code, nothing more, nothing less. I’m obviously missing something (clues) and will need to do more homework and perhaps check out Patreon, which I haven’t done yet. I was intrigued, but held back with all the various avenues HG gives us to appreciate his work – in other words, I can’t keep up!

            Good Lord, that drink sounds like it would put hairs on your chest 😉 and the cheek of me indeed to suggest such a thing … it’s obviously powering you up to ‘pull’!

            Throwing out a challenge to the Ultra? Now you’re talking (and perhaps better start walking as I doubt you want to take HG on in any challenge, let alone a physical one).

            Good to touch base again, and I’ll let you know if I appreciate the homework task once it is complete <3 xox

          34. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You set me off laughing here. Challenging the Ultra, and to a pull up competition as well haha! I’m so full of it sometimes. Although, I might be happy to take an excruciatingly embarrassing loss for the team if we could see a masked HG on the bar. Shirtless obviously, or it doesn’t count. I don’t embarrass myself for nothing haha!

            Funny, I had Martin Gore as a possible too. It was the ‘hiding in plain sight’ angle. I drew the same conclusion as you, not HG. The musical key pad. You have me thinking now where I got that from. Possibly in one of the blog Q&A, possibly in KHG. Honestly can’t remember, hopefully I didn’t dream it! It’s definitely strongly in my head because I considered that the musical code might be the first six notes of Memphisto. I liked the idea of that, I was driving, the song came on and my mind was kind of empty when I had that thought. I’d been considering various songs as candidates for the code.

            I think there are clues placed as red herrings and there will be clues that look like meaningless throwaway details. It’s the throwaways that we need to watch out for I think.

            My musical taste is entirely erratic. There are some songs on my play list that just don’t fit me at all, I’m all over the place with music. I’m sure we would share some common ground in the depths of a playlist somewhere! The only thing I don’t listen to is what I would describe as “intentionally happy” music. Nothing hoppity skippity! I’m not great with calm either, I’m not a calm person haha! Drama, I like some drama in my music I think.

            You did make me chuckle there.


          35. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, TS, I like your idea of taking one for the team and I imagine you would be trounced, but a shirtless Ultra might be worth the hit 😉

            You had Martin Gore as a possible, too? Well, well, well. That makes two of us trying out the hiding in plain sight angle. It’s probably an insight into how both our minds work – it’s too obvious and therefore not likely, which means it’s definitely worth considering. As I said, a fleeting thought on my part, but I went far enough to find out where Martin Gore is located. Interesting to find the connection between him and the Harkle’s. There are multiple rabbit holes we could go down, that’s the problem. The other problem is I’m not sure we’re any closer to getting any answers. Might have to wander over to KHG to see if any further mysteries have been uncovered, and maybe pose a thought or two.

            Yes, I think we’d have to go into the depths of the playlist to find something that matches 😛 I’m very eclectic when it comes to music, and often find words more meaningful, but tunes also move me greatly. I can listen to anything from classical to modern pop, I do Rap as well as EDM (thanks to my son!) Music is something that my soul relates to and therefore I don’t experience any type of barrier to sound as it were. It’s how I feel and how it moves me. If we consider HG’s latest offerings on YT, the most ‘touching’ of those musical episodes for me would be the “Johnny Depp” or “Edward Scissorhands” style musical interlude. I described it as “fantasy film’ type music. I don’t listen to music to relax, I’ve just realised. I listen to music to be moved in some way, to be inspired, to be uplifted. It’s the creative aspect of music I enjoy. Alternatively, it’s to express an emotion. I will play music which connects to my emotions at any given time. That could be anger, sadness, longing, hope, joy. The list goes on.

            I sensed you like an element of drama in your music from what you’ve shared. I don’t know if you’ve checked out Phil Ayers (which I did) on YT under Epic Music Collection and his “Ready for War”, but I think you’d enjoy that. If you hit the “show more” button it will open up the playlist for the various offerings which run in sequence and the whole piece lasts for 25mins or so. It’s a film ready playlist, and Epidemic Sound lists all his works, from what I can see, as well as collections under various headings where his music has been included. I’ve got more discovery to do.

            Glad I could make you chuckle, TS 🙂 xox

          36. Viol. says:


            I believe Jada’s grandmother taught her how to masturbate when she was growing up. I don’t know if she just told her how it’s done or physically demonstrated it on herself or on little Jada, but either way, it is intrusive and a disgusting appropriation of someone else’s feelings. Also unnecessary, because most kids figure it out for themselves.

            The grandmother’s rationale was Jada would know a man couldn’t do anything to please her that she couldn’t do herself, but rather than taking power away from men she might encounter and giving it to Jada, it gave the power to her grandmother. I’d call that a LOCE.

            As for Amber, I haven’t followed the case that closely, but I’d bet money on both sexual and physical abuse, probably from a very young age.

            There are so many ways of fucking up kids and I’m no longer sure Philip Larkin was right when he wrote, “They may not mean to.”

          37. lickemtomorrow says:

            Violetta, Wow, just wow! If that’s not a violation, I don’t know what is. I’d also call that sexual abuse in the circumstances.

            If it hasn’t been determined whether her grandmother was a narcissist, I’d say definitely to the possibility. It’s amazing how the narcissist can turn anything around to explain their own depraved needs by creating a rationale to somehow make it plausible or acceptable – Jada didn’t need a man to please her, she could please herself, and this was how she could do it (cue sexual abuse scenario).

            There are boundaries when it comes to sexuality that should never be crossed by an adult when it comes to a child. If those boundaries are crossed then I agree, it’s for the adult’s purposes and satisfaction while giving greater power to the adult over the child. I’m curious to know when Jada shared this and what her take on it was – as in how she was affected by that. Did she simply accept her grandmother’s explanation or was she challenging it by bringing it up at a later date (as in WTF?!).

            The notion of female empowerment has also been abused in many ways. There was a ready made excuse for her grandmother to abuse her, even by way of explanation as to how to reach climax. It’s possible Jada’s grandmother ruined every potential relationship with a man for her because she basically told her she didn’t need a man, and that physical pleasure – the ultimate source of intimacy for a couple – was hers to own and thus could be disconnected from any type of intimacy.

            It’s not just narcissistic parent’s who help to ruin their children’s lives, but narcissistic grandparent’s as well. I wonder what her mother thought?

          38. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Oooh, great find on YouTube! I was on Spotify but yes Epic Music Collection does list everything out. I listened to Ready For War. I see why you would choose that for me and yes we have the drama I like in that one. I just listened to Raise the Black Flag. That would suit me too.

            If you placed the song titles beside facts we have in KHG I think they would correlate. That said, we can make anything fit if we try hard enough. The online narc communicated through song titles in a joint playlist. I saw exactly what I wanted to see so I definitely have a tendency to read into things too much! Raise the Black Flag though? Our minds have to sit up at that surely haha!

            I could talk music with you for hours. You summed it up perfectly. I don’t listen to music to relax either, I use it to feel something. Dip my mood, rev myself up, wake up the fight in me, all sorts of reasons. I do think empaths are susceptible to music, partly because of those extra clusters of connections around the insula but also because of the way we listen.

            We listen to people as they speak, it isn’t a lazy listening. It’s a ‘listening into’ people as they speak. I’ve always referred to it as ‘reaching’. I can’t think of another way to describe it really. Maybe it’s linked to the Truthseeker trait? We look for information and lock on to draw everything we can out of the interaction. Genuine curiosity and a real desire to understand. I honestly don’t think the normals do it. They surface listen, just the words. They miss the choice of words, the emphasis on a word, what lies behind the words. I think this is why we are good people readers, we actually bother to listen properly.

            The narcissist is similar I think. They listen in because they are searching for the emotion contained within the words. They listen to check for control or threats to control. They feel similar to us because they notice. We recognise that they notice, and it tells us ‘he is like me’. The art of the con right there. Add in their mirroring and all our senses are saying ‘friend’. They scramble our senses and we see what we want to see. I don’t necessarily think that we always want to see ourselves. We want to see someone who we believe is similar to us, carries that depth, who understands the hidden subtext of the conversation, who feels the hidden heartbeat of life.

            It’s actually quite sad, two very similar creatures in so many ways, yet with such opposing intentions and such catastrophic consequences.

            Not sure what happened there! Started off on music and went all philosophical on you haha! Must be that damn Philip Ayers music I’ve been listening to. 😉


          39. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, glad the YT suggestions was a helpful one and thought you might like that 🙂

            You know I’m going to have to look up “Raise the Black Flag” now and you may also know a ‘black flag’ operation is one where you take no prisoners. Sounds deadly!

            I also noticed some of Phil Ayer’s titles correlate to thoughts/ideas HG has shared. Some which struck me were “First Flakes” (on the album “Judgement Calling”); “Rain Will Fall”, “The Narrator”, “Ivory Tower”, “Highlands”(on the album “Memory of a Distant Land”); “Loyalty”, “Striving Towards Success” (from “The Union Proclaimed album) and so on.

            I think you’re right, we can make things fit if we try hard enough. With what little we know about HG there are a million rabbit holes we could go down and I’ve already been down a few! The mystery is intriguing, but it can also be frustrating at times. I’ve been here two years and still feel there I’ve learnt very little in that time to satisfy my curiosity. In that sense, HG could be whoever we want him to be and perhaps feeding into our imagination is what also keeps us ‘hooked’. Truthseekers unite 😉

            The nex and I also shared songs as a way of communicating and that’s another hook which keeps us bound. If they know something speaks to us they have an advantage. They can play that whatever way they like. When we don’t suspect anything except good intentions then we allow the hook to sink even deeper into us. I also found plenty of songs to stick a barb into him once I had him worked out 😛 The worst of that is he would have gained negative fuel galore – especially if it was a “fuck you” song! Ah, the lessons we learn, yet I don’t regret having my say in that way. It certainly relieved me of some of the angst I was feeling at the time.

            The ‘listening’ aspect of the empath is an interesting one. We have an advantage because we can lock onto things that others don’t, as you say. We reach behind the words and into someone else’s world. We feel with them. It reminds me of a bible story where a woman touched Jesus’ cloak. In the Scripture it says “He felt the power go out of Him.” When we connect with other people or they connect with us there is an exchange that happens which draws on our empathy and makes us aware. It makes us aware of their world, their suffering, their joy. In that sense, being an empath can be draining because we make ourselves available with all our faculties. What pain’s them, pain’s us, and so on.

            Your paragraph comparing empaths to narcissists sums the dynamic up nicely. We see someone in the art of the narcissist’s mirroring that reminds us of ourselves and we therefore recognise. It is an artful con and until you know better a very easy one to fall for unfortunately. The soulmate concept comes to mind. They’re almost too perfect and in that sense a dream come true. We all desire to be known. When we do find someone who appears to know us in a way no one else does, we are very drawn to them. That’s human nature – “You get me.” It’s especially impactful for the empath who so often puts themselves out for others and can become very isolated at times in doing so. To find a similar soul who can help us replenish is a gift.

            “The hidden heartbeat of life” … That’s beautiful <3

            And it is sad, as you say, to contemplate the opposing intentions and catastrophic consequences in circumstances where one has the desire to truly know the other, while the other only has the desire to manipulate through knowing. It was never about us, but the thought that it was held us captivated.

            I'm into philosophical thinking (you may have noticed) 🙂 Trajectories are part of my bread and butter, and not uncommon for either of us in that sense xox

          40. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Sorry this reply is late. I got distracted yesterday. I listened to Raise the Black Flag again and beneath the video there was an Assassin’s Creed compilation with the same name. I listened to that, then I ended up watching and listening for the music on all of the Assassin’s Creed trailers haha! No match. You know how the rabbit holes go. I do think the music that we know belongs to HG could be used for film / video games. Similarly Philip Ayers does sound remarkably similar and together with those KHG related song titles, I can’t discount Philip Ayers yet. The thing is, if Ayers is HG, there’s nothing on Ayers. He’s just a name. So even you could confirm the two are the same person, you don’t actually gain more information. That makes it more likely in itself!

            As you say there are so many potential rabbit holes with HG. It’s the IQ that does it for me. When you have an IQ like that and apply yourself, there is very little you couldn’t self teach or learn. I’m very envious of that aspect.

            Oh the playlist. Terrible, the narc kept me guessing, kept me chasing, raised and lowered my mood with that damn playlist of ours. I remember around the same time I was chatting online to a guy in India that I had met in game. Went by the name of Mothsmoke. Only young, but really intelligent and very in tune with people, very in tune with me. I remember asking him, “If someone sent you these songs, what would you think?” He said, “I’d think, they should stop sending me songs, man up and tell me directly what they want to say.” Haha. No ET in play there! Then when I was going to visit the narc. “Do it, you crazy bitch. You’re going to do it no matter what I tell you. So go, do what you have to do, and when it’s done, I’ll be here.” Nice guy, exceptionally funny. Could really make me laugh.

            Laughing at the “fuck you” song. Good for you. So it gave fuel, but it also gave you satisfaction, sometimes it’s worth it. I didn’t send the “fuck you” song. It was ready, I’d picked it out, but, once that was sent there was no going back so at the time of ensnarement I always held back. Post ensnarement, now, I’d never give him the satisfaction of knowing he ever meant anything at all. Two can play at plausible deniability.

            I loved the Bible story you told me. I like the idea that empaths might have been described in the Bible, even if only indirectly. That draining feeling can sometimes be a giving of a part of yourself. I just really like that it is mentioned. Xx

            I feel the same way. I have spent hours charging down rabbit holes, I still fact check and search things up now as regards HG, who he might be, what he does for a living etc. What I will say though is that I’ve enjoyed the chase. I’ve learned about all kinds of different things and I’ve found it all interesting. Sheela -na- gigs were an adventure in themselves! Haha!

            Keeping us guessing is a fine art. The anonymity aspect to HG I think is a really good thing. Yes we’ll explore, fact check, try to zoom in. We’ll chase because it’s in our nature to hunt for the truth of things, but, the reality is, we actually like enigmatic. Or, I do, I like enigmatic haha!


          41. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, if HG is Phil Ayers, then there’s probably many a rabbit hole I needn’t have wandered down 😛 I won’t call it wasted time because, like you, I find it a fascinating exercise in one way, but at the same time won’t overwhelm myself looking for answers that are too hard to find. The thing is, we are not meant to find them, at least if HG wants to remain anonymous. I doubt one day we’ll wake up and find a message to say “Got me!”

            Haha, imagine, all the mystery gone and who knows what the outcome of that might be … could be good or could be bad. It’s likely we prefer not to know as HG can be anything/anyone we want him to be. It’s like seeing a character from a story in your mind’s eye and then being disabused of your notion of what that character looks like when they decide who should play the part on film. We can adjust, of course, as James Bond has had many different leading men and most have been accepted by the masses because they enjoy the franchise. James Bond can be any person who embodies the character. As far as HG goes, we have a description he has given us and need to rely on that, much like a character in a story. We do have a pair of legs, so that’s something, but the rest is left to our imagination. Ooh la la 😉

            One thing I would find difficult to marry up are the various aspects that don’t seem to align … as in a musical spy? A spy with a gift for music? A musician who uses his craft as a cover to spy? I did begin to wonder when you mentioned the soundproof study which you have interpreted as a studio. I though soundproofing would be necessary for clandestine work, and various narcissistic entanglements as well. The purpose of having a coded entry would seem highly secretive … is that just the narcissist’s paranoia? What goes on behind those closed doors?

            Assassin’s Creed … I was greatly taken with the notion of that game, but I am not a gamer and so talk of games generally doesn’t mean a lot to me. I’m a bit dyslexic when it comes to controllers, so I’d inevitably lose! I will play a board game, that’s about it. My eldest daughter’s boyfriend recently acquired a turntable and bought several albums which were scores from the games that he played. Up to that point I thought it was always more about the graphics – which are fantastic in some of them – and now I realise there’s much more to it. He has educated me, but I can’t for the life of me think what game he was particularly taken with. I’ll have to find out.

            Your story about Mothsmoke made me smile 🙂 He sounds like a straight talking guy and that’s what we need sometimes. Softens the blow with “when it’s done, I’ll be here.” I’d say you have quite a few backups in the online world, both here and in gaming <3 You must have a lot of fun. I'm a lot more of the old fashioned type of girl and if I had to put myself in an era it would be the 50's. That's my style, even though I was quite radical in some ways in my youth, but I love the sophistication of those days and being waited on by men in a manner where chivalry was at a premium. Going by your account of Mothsmoke, chivalry is not dead, just different now xox

            I like your thoughts around the "fuck you!" song 🙂 You are right, of course, and as I was still entangled to a certain extent when the fallout happened, I gave as good as I got. Couldn't help myself. Now I know he would have loved that, hence the reason I am saying you are right. Don't give them what they want. They may never recover (and this comes with a wish he felt the full impact of your disinterest in the end). We are the ones that got away, the fish that broke the fisherman's line, but whaddayaknow … if he didn't already have another line in the water (like I believe mine did, maybe several) he wouldn't be long about casting his line out again to see what he could pull out of the water next. Always hungry for the Prime Aims.

            I'm glad you liked the story I shared. It's one that's stuck with me. The woman was unwell (won't go into the details), but she desired a cure and believed Jesus was the one who could cure her. There were so many people surrounding him, seeking healing, the best she could do was reach out and touch his cloak. His back was turned to her at the time, but as the story goes he felt the power go out of him and turned around asking "Who touched me?" There's much that could be drawn out of the story, but my main point was that we will experience that sense of 'draining', or something going out of us as we connect with others. They will metaphorically 'touch' us and with our empathy we will respond.

            The Sheela-na-gigs are something I must have missed along the way, but have obviously caught my attention now! I feel like we've been living at times in a parallel HG universe, but I'm not connected to all his outlets so I'm guessing that's where I could be falling down on the information front. It does leave me with a lot less rabbit holes to wander down 😉 Though, you are tempting me xox

          42. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I laughed my way through most of that comment. My God, you too?! Dyslexic with a games controller. I’m woeful. That’s why I don’t play any games like that, just one game only on my iPad.

            I tried x box. I couldn’t do it either. I tried a racing game once and kept spinning the car. Art imitates life imitates art haha! I got confused then which direction I was driving in. Then I got so cross with it I decided to see if the game would accommodate me driving the wrong way round the track. Would I meet the other cars head on? I don’t think Xbox was designed for people like me hahaha!

            Yes, I have met some really lovely people in game and from all over the world. I like the fact that really everyone is equal in the online environment. You take as you find. No social levels or success criteria to muddy the waters. Just people letting off steam. Mothsmoke has disappeared, haven’t seen him active in any capacity since COVID. Given his location, that’s concerning.

            Yes, there are numerous rabbit holes to wander down. Like you I can only give so much to it. I agree that finding someone who doesn’t want to be found is likely an impossible task. “You got me” haha that tickled me.

            The Sheela na gig. HG has one in the entrance to Tudor Towers, just as you go through the door apparently. I looked for private sales of Sheela na gigs. Nothing registered. I’ve looked at all sorts of little asides like that. Still nothing. I’m supposed to be following a trail of set clues but I don’t like set clues. I follow what interests me.

            I wonder if the Jag will go on Autotrader? Kidding! It’ll get traded in at the dealership. HG isn’t going to sell it privately, too much hassle. Only so many car brands HG would go for there. Aston maybe? Maserati? Mercedes? Not Bentley, too old mannish. Rangey? Please no. So HG trades in the Jag in the next twelve months at a luxury car dealership. The dealership sells the jag online. There won’t be too many of that car, it’s likely the V8 version. It sounded like a V8. That’s more the way my mind works. I don’t need rabbit holes creating for me, I create them for myself!

            Agree, musical spy doesn’t sound right to me. I’ve never subscribed to spy. It doesn’t pay enough and if being prime minister would mean a pay cut then politics itself is out. Lobbyist for a multinational would be in and would place HG in political circles. If it was arms trade then it would bring in the military aspect. Logical trains of thought but essentially it’s just guesswork.

            Possibly, a soundproofed office if you needed secrecy. I doubt even Boris has a soundproofed office though. It just sounds too unrealistic. The Shieldmaiden knows what HG does professionally and she works in a similar field. I don’t think the other IPPS did know though. I don’t see how they wouldn’t question a locked office with a key pad. Even a studio is unusual to have at home without being Mick Jagger. Mick?!

            Haha, see? 12.34 and I’m thinking about sound proofed offices and their significance. I should do the sensible thing and look at sheela na gigs again.


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