What the Contagion Empath Does
Are you ready to learn what the Contagion Empath does?
It is time for the true detail to be provided.
Are you ready to learn what the Contagion Empath does?
It is time for the true detail to be provided.
HG,
Is it possible for the results of the empath detector to change with time? I know the narcissist doesn’t change schools, but curious if the same thing applies to empaths. I was thinking about how high my emotional thinking was when I initially took it, and whether that impacts results.
In some of these hypothetical scenarios, I feel like I’d act differently depending on how high my emotional thinking was in that instance. Or is it just the case of different aspects coming forward?
For example, when I was being devalued I found myself snapping at other people, and when I’m being idealized I feel like I draw people in more.
Minimal alterations in percentages but the fundamental outcome remains the same.
Makes sense! Thanks HG
You are welcome.
Something that WhoCares responded in a comment to me and my re-reading an early comment, comparing it to my most recent comment (‘Who Is Alastor’) made me consider. Not all articles / videos that HG does will invoke ET responses / reactions and comparing earlier / older comments can show a measurement of someone’s journey. Sometimes there is no ‘change’ in the original mindset / thought indicating that there is a part of the LT’s ‘perception’ that remains the same about the same book / article / video.
For those with the contagion element where it works by feeling and experiencing the emotion(s) of the person/people around them…have you ever felt that your behavior was influenced by the absorption of those feelings? Are certain feelings more likely to generate a confrontational response from you?
Example: Say you are on a walk in the park with a friend or two. You see two adults in a hostile verbal altercation. One is an empath retreating from the other physically and emotionally, due to fear of the fight getting physical or simply wanting the fight to end. The other is a very angry narcissist…
Assuming that you confront the narcissist and that you’re too distracted by the injustice to be shielding/guarding your emotions… How does the anger impact you as you confront? What impact does the fear have?
Hi Dani,
Yes, I’ve felt my behavior influenced by the feelings of others. One thing I noticed in the past few years is that because I’m able to feel when other people are uncomfortable or being inauthentic, I alter my behavior to get them to feel comfortable and accepted because their inauthenticity makes me uncomfortable. Often times this ends in me putting others’ feelings ahead of my own because in that moment, I feel their feelings more strongly than I feel my own. I hate that I do this, and have to consciously and cognitively go against it sometimes.
I can also usually tell when people are lying because their “energy” (sorry HG 😂) feels different than the things they’re saying. But because unaware narcissists believe their own bullshit, they usually come across as truthful to me. It’s like there’s no energetic difference between what they say and their authentic self because they don’t have an authentic self. The golden period has always felt extra disarming for me for that reason.
In terms of confrontation, I usually confront in situations of injustice or powerlessness. In your example, feeling her fear is what would make me take action to help her feel safe and protected. Her fear of him wouldn’t make me feel any more or less fearful of him though. His anger would probably feel so overwhelming I would try to neutralize it first. If that didn’t work and he started attacking me as well, then I would probably go head to head with him. I’m way more confrontational with narcissists for some reason.
So interesting, I’m contagion-super-codependent and I feel like I just described facets of all three!
Hello Victorious–
I think there are good things to be said for putting others feelings first. That being said when a person does that too much, it’s not a good thing. Sometimes, you have to look out for you so you can lookout for others.
How would you go about neutralizing the anger in the moment?
You seem to be more confrontational with narcissists…sounds like the addiction to me.
I agree you did describe facets of all three! That was amazing.
@dani
You’re right, that does sound like part of the addiction! I’m terms of trying to calm down the anger id probably say something like “I understand you’re really angry, but you’re better than this/you seem like a good person.” OH GOD no wonder I’m surrounded by mid rangers
Publicly hostile sounds like a lesser though so I’d probably end up arguing/calling the cops.
What would your reaction be?
@anna
That’s amazing, are you Super Savior?? It sounds lovely to be able to turn the emotions off in those moments!
I have significant super but it tends to come out mostly in private moments ie in relationships with narcissists.
Would you place more importance on holding the narcissist accountable than making sure the empath is okay? I would be worried about getting the narcissist even more worked up.
I think @anna is me (not the other Anna!)
I am a majority super majority saviour, yes.
My thinking would be if I could stop the aggressor the victim would be helped.
I’m quite fearless in these moments. I’m even prepared to get hurt.
Victorious–
Mu gut instinct…
1) Make sure my friend is ready to call the police if it escalates.
2) Get between the two and speak to the person being screamed at, and ask if they’re okay, if they need anything.
I don’t know that I would have answered the same before I found HG’s work. (Meaning I think I would have had my eyes on the angrier person, but I’m not sure.) But after a year of listening to the Ultra’s mellifluous, chocolatey voice teaching all the empaths in his fuel matrix (as he leads the empath revolution against his inferior brother and sister narcs), the phrase, “don’t give the narcissist fuel,” is pretty well settled.
What wounds the narcissist? Ignoring them. My instinct is that they’re more likely to retreat if they’re ignored. Is there a guarantee that they will retreat? No. But I’m also cutting off their fuel provision, a little from me as a tertiary source and blocking their line of sight with (most likely) the primary source. Do I think it increases the chances of withdrawal? Yes. (Did I do okay, Mr. Tudor?)
If the narc started screaming at me…I don’t know that I would be able to keep my cool. I don’t have a quick temper, but once that fire starts, it burns, HOT. I like to think I’d have the fortitude to not scream back (I’ve had a fair amount of training in how to de-escalate situations, owing to jobs I’ve had, and I would remind myself that I might have a narc on my hands)…but I don’t know that I could continue to ignore them as easily if they got physical with me or started screaming insults at me.
I’ll reply here, Dani, as I am definitely the type to insert myself in that situation and challenge the person attacking the other. I’d not be absorbing the feelings of those two people. I’d see injustice. I’d feel some fear but my dislike of injustice is stronger and would force me to act.
While in the fray I’d be energised and not feel many emotions. I’d be strategising, trying to find the right things to say to change the situation.
My two strongest schools are super and contagion but the super will override the contagion when it sees injustice and I’m in a position to do something about it. Feelings get pushed down to deal with the job at hand.
It’s much more likely to deeply affect me if I’m unable to act. Then I’ll feel it all much more.
Hello annaamel!
Thank you for sharing.
“While in the fray I’d be energised and not feel many emotions. I’d be strategising, trying to find the right things to say to change the situation.” — Would the emotions of the situation in any way later catch up with you? Would you need to retreat to relax and let it fall out?
“Feelings get pushed down to deal with the job at hand.” — Fascinating.
“It’s much more likely to deeply affect me if I’m unable to act. Then I’ll feel it all much more.” — Are there mitigating factors that would cause you to pause between stepping between aggressor and victim? i.e. the size difference between you and the aggressor?
Completely different scenario: If you were walking with a friend and saw a homeless person who needed a bite of food and your friend feels really uncomfortable in that situation (and you know, not only because you can feel it but because they’ve told you in the past). What choice would you make? Ignore the homeless stranger in favour of the comfort of your friend? Or make sure that you get them something to eat.
Hi Dani. I’ll do an HG answer for economy..
1. Probably not.
2. No
3. Yes.
4. This is unlikely to stop me.
5. I’d help the homeless person.
Much to gain from being succinct.
Witch and AV,
Complex post traumatic stress disorder would most likely be the “official diagnosis”, if you were to obtain medical professional opinions.
HG has already provided what the “diagnosis” is = addiction to narcissism, ET not being managed / understood / learned, in my view, it is basically similar ‘symptoms’ to the affects of CPTSD.
Both of you have had Empath Detectors done. The results of your EDC, which I believe, gives you insight into what your characteristics (strengths / weaknesses) which may be brought to the fore because of interaction with narcissists, or ET triggers via external stressors) are because of your addiction to narcissism. You have that information to hand, so, you are already half-way there, if you were to seek an official medical opinion.
I, personally, have never denied my Aspergers, my deafness, my CPTSD (life-long narcissistic abuse), my anxiety because of having to deal with several difficulties at the same time (especially when out in public, but, much more easily ‘managed’ since my own awareness & learning HG’s work) = complex comorbidities in one. I cannot separate any of them from the other because they are all part of me as a person. What I have done, is to learn and understand each ‘comorbidity’ as it is and how it impacts me as a person., and how each of those comorbidities can impact on the other, it depends on where, how, when, what, who, if any, within my immediate environment (triggers, external stressors within a LOCE, potentially).
I suggest that you both, Witch & AV, to read up on CPTSD and link that to your EDC that you have and I think you will find it is basically the same thing – CPTSD by the DSM lists and addiction to narcissism is HG’s version. Your own unique EDC, in my view, takes your CPTSD into a more detailed analysis than you would have obtained via medical professionals because they go by the “standard lists”.
As for understanding more about the specific details on empath schools and cadres, HG has made everyone aware that he is working on these and will release this information when he is ready to do so. I have no doubt that HG will have covered may be a lot of what you are referring to within his new work on Empaths, because HG is very thorough in what he creates.
Thank you, HG, for your time in moderating 🙂
Hi Asp Emp
You stated that you have never denied your Aspergers, CPTSD, and anxiety. Were these diagnosed by a medical professional or through your own research? If by a medical professional, was it as an adult? (as I assume your mother would be less than helpful in this area, but I could be wrong). Also, what was the process of you going about finding a medical professional that you were confident in accepting their findings? So many people write that they went several routes or through a long string of individuals (therapists, psychiatrists, etc) and were not satisfied with the results. Then they came here and used HG’s assessment tools (Narc Detector, Empath Detector, Trait Detector, etc) and found their answers in them. I was just curious which was the case for you. As always, no obligation to answer, and my apologies if you find it too personal.
Hi NarcAngel, no, it’s fine, it is not too personal and thank you for asking.
Anxiety was officially diagnosed (by a GP at the time), as an adult, around 20 years before Aspergers was officially diagnosed (forced to go through process to prove myself due to lack of understanding / acceptance through an authority body – simply because they – not me – they needed the proof!) . Parental narcissist must have known but obviously failed to assist me in these areas in childhood / adulthood. A boss told me to get anger management, only to be told by the one therapist who informed me that I was not the one with the “problem” (I strongly suspect that the boss received a formal report of some kind, following 6 sessions). Having said that, I mentioned abuse in childhood as part of my sessions with that therapist (who advised me to write a letter to parental narcissist – who had refused to read it, surprise, surprise). And discussed the abuse with the diagnostic person RE: Aspergers.
CPTSD is still quite new to doctors and it was never mentioned to me. I came across it some time after I found HG’s work and made the “link” where CPTSD behaviours were basically similar as to why victims get drawn / attract narcissists in a cycle until the victim stops it through awareness / understanding = similar to HG’s work being applied, getting ET / LT understood and to learn how to manage it better etc.
You know the rest. I appreciate your questions and thank you for listening, NA 🙂
Have you tried DBT? I read about it and I think it is wonderful for everyone but especially dealing with anxiety.
“Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT) is a modified type of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). Its main goals are to teach people how to live in the moment, develop healthy ways to cope with stress, regulate their emotions, and improve their relationships with others” (verywellmind.com)
Thank you for your suggestion. I think you may have missed some of what I have said previously and especially recently (on KTN blog) in regard to my own personal journey. I have explained that I have learned how to recognise when I sense my anxiety ‘appearing’, if any, these days (re-read my comment as above). And what triggers it. If I were to refer myself for such “treatment” of ie CBT / DBT, I know I will be asked why do I need it now when I have spent 2.5 years utilising HG’s work?
For you to understand me as an individual, may I suggest that you read up on Aspergers (especially in social interaction / communication) and profound deafness, someone who was a victim of narcissistic abuse but still an ACON. And try, just try, to imagine all of those combined without having someone standing next to you as a support, someone to assist / reassure you etc. Imagine that there is a fight going on, a lot of shouting and I am not hearing what is actually said, not knowing if there is potentially a dangerous situation going on.
How on earth is DBT going to assist me in that?
Apologies, NA. I’d add that it was my sister who mentioned Aspergers to me around 5 years after anxiety diagnosis (informing me of my father too). Two of my friends (boarding school) completed a questionnaire of behaviours (responses etc) and I gave those to the Aspergers diagnostic team, I showed a diary parental narcissist kept (my learning / speech learned from around 6 months to around 4 / 5). She made a record that showed, clearly that she did not like my “being awkward” when I was 3, however, that I was ‘ok’ with the speech therapist at that time. So, I could suggest that I had “learned” that the parental narcissist was in fact “hurting” me from an early age, not because of my deafness, nor, my Aspergers.
I appreciate you responding AE.
@ASP
Sorry to hear that your mum was criticising you so early, that’s awful
There’s no point in asking my mum anything because she wouldn’t tell me if there was anything abnormal about me, she’ll just say “you were fine”
I remember her telling me my SAT’s results were bad but that’s about it
Thank you, Witch.
That’s what my mom would say, did say once when I asked, too. Right after I found the notes between my kindergarten teacher and my mom where my mom indicated to the teacher that I was the problem in a situation where I’d been picked on by another girl and defended myself. And my mom was also sympathetic to me but did question how my dress had been ripped repeatedly. I told her, repeatedly, that the other girl had bitten it as we stood in line. When I found the papers, I was so shocked, she’d literally thrown me under the bus to the teacher! But that teacher, and all the others after, just have been able to see that I wasn’t the problem, I never had any incidents, not one, except that one, in all my school career. It was just another thing that fell into place upon learning about my mother’s narcissism.
@AV
These kinds of parents they don’t want to notice anything out of place because then they feel it reflects badly on them because they cannot differentiate between themselves and other people within their fuel matrix.
My narc sisters’ son is autistic and allegedly when he was diagnosed my sister said “is there something wrong with me as to why my son is autistic?”
Well yes there is but it’s a separate issue
@Witch,
In other words, why she couldn’t admit to me that she felt I was the problem, even though she told the teacher I was? You hit the nail right on the head that she cannot differentiate between she and me, so this does make sense to me. But I don’t understand why she told the teacher I was the problem. And especially since I know I wasn’t the problem in that situation. But on the other hand, she thought we were terrible children, to justify her secret abuse of us. It’s all convoluted.
@Witch, Thank you for the info though, that is a piece I had not put together.
Thank you ASP
Yes I have seen a psychologist on YouTube called Doc Snipes who talks about CPTSD. I just have to find the motivation to implement what she suggests
Witch, thank you for your reply. I have never heard of the doctor you have mentioned. NHS England do have information on CPTSD but I found more in-depth detail via healthline.com (American based).
@ASP
Unless you’re showing acute symptoms forget the NHS when it comes to mental health
I agree you’ll learn more from American psychologists online
Thank you Asp.
Hello Asp Emp,
I think I might have CPTSD. I have some questions about the EDC. I saw your comment and you say you “believe” the EDC gives you insight into someone’s characteristics. Since you said “you believe”, are you saying you haven’t done the EDC? If that’s true and you haven’t done the detectors, can someone confirm that what you’re saying is correct?
You also say that if we read up about CPTSD & link up to the EDC results, that it would be basically the same thing. Can you elaborate on this statement? I’m not following. Are you saying that the EDC will confirm if I have CPTSD?
Mary says (to Asp Emp)
“If that’s true and you haven’t done the detectors, can someone confirm that what you’re saying is correct?”
I have read a lot of Asp Emp’s comments through the years and I believe she is an Empath. (Not a Narcissist and not a Normal)
Hi Another Cat, thank you so much for your view. That means a lot. Now, I will go and get my EDC sorted out 🙂 It amused me when you suggested that I am not a Normal (I think that is apparent) 🙂
Haha, damn straight you’re not a normal 😁
PS. HG might put me on the naughty step for swear word.
Another Cat, you, on the naughty step for saying “damn”? That makes two of us now 😉 Well, I sent in my EDC 🙂
Hi Another Cat, once again, thank you for your ‘prompt’. I have got my EDC back (I just need to peruse through it now). Yes. I am an empath 🙂 Great news! 🙂
Hi Asp Emp! Xx
Congrats on getting your ED done and welcome to the Empath Club! Xx 🥰❤️
Bless you, Rebecca. Thank you so much for that 🙂 I no longer have to question myself 🙂 TBH, I was surprised but not surprised! Thank you, once again, for the ‘welcome’. xx
Hi Asp Emp,
I’m not surprised by your answer to the ED, I sensed your empathy in your comments to me and others, and the fact you defended me once , on the blog and it felt genuine. Thank you for that! It was very kind of you. I appreciate you doing that.xx 🥰❤️ I’m curious what school and cadre you got, but you don’t have to share, as you know that…xx
Hi Rebecca, ahh, your words moved me. Thank you for saying “it felt genuine”, of course I’d assist someone in need but now more mindful of boundaries if you can understand? I have not asked HG for permission to share my empath status, as yet. There are times when I do things by the book 😉 Thank you for your support, it means a lot 🙂 xx
Asp Emp,
I get the sentiment in Rebecca’s comment and congratulations – but there was never a question about whether you belonged to the empath club (at least in mind.)
If it wasn’t evident in the supportive comments, over the duration of your time on the blog, that you’ve often offered – it was quite clear by the way you reflect upon and re-evaluate your past comments and your drive for self-knowledge.
But I am certain if feels good to have that confirmation.
Thank you, WhoCares 🙂 Interesting about reflect; re-evaluate and the drive, thank you for sharing that. Yes, it does feel good 🙂
🙂
Asp Emp,
Happy to hear your news, it’s exciting getting the results back!
Happy reading and pondering!
Xx
Thank you, TS 🙂
Hi Asp Emp,
I’d be willing to bet, that you have some Savior in you, like me. Xx I have a story to tell you, in regards to my Savior side. I was walking my dog, the other week and another neighborhood dog jumped his fence and went after my dog. Lucky for me and my dog, I saw and heard the other dog coming, so I was able to swoop up my dog ,before he got mauled or killed. This was a big German Shepherd and he wanted my dig badly! I kept having to hold my dog and spin away from the other dog, every time he lounged for my dog. He tried getting him from me, several times and I was screaming like a nutcase! His last lounge had me picking my dog up and over my head and that’s when the dog bit the underside of my bicep and his front fangs and one back fang went in my arm. I didn’t even feel it, I was scared for my dog and was more concentrating on keeping my dog safe. Luckily, the owner and my husband got the dog off me before he could yank my arm or rip into my arm. When the other dog was restrained, my dog and I were both crying and shaking. I held him so tight to me and just cried. I started feeling a slight stinging pain in my arm and that’s when I noticed I was bit and I frantically changed my dog for bites. He was fine, I kept him safe and I was so grateful he wasn’t hurt. I’ll live xx
Rebecca,
Lucky for your dog that you reacted quick! Unlucky for you though 🙁.
Hope you heal quick!
“His last lounge had me picking my dog up and over my head and that’s when the dogs bit the underside of my bicep and his front fangs and one back fang went in my arm.”
By the way, did you find out if the dog is up to date with its shots?
Sorry – you probably did, just asking because I had a similar experience recently – got bit by a charging German Shepherd, in my building, but couldn’t react because I was holding a laundry basket and it happened so fast. So, I know what you mean – you don’t feel it at first and then the pain arrives afterwards.
Rebecca & WhoCares, what is it with these German Shepherd breed of the dog? I was attacked by one when I was around 11. I think they can sense the empaths and because (laughing here) the German Shepherd dogs are narcissists (!!!!) and they “know” 😉 Now, we also know 😉
Asp Emp,
Sorry you had a similar experience! That would be memorable at 11, I am sure.
I don’t know if it’s a thing with German Shepherds though – I have known sweet, protective German Shepherds when I was young. The only other dog breed I suffered a bite from was a half-sedated Golden Retriever (if you don’t count my great grandmother’s chihuahua nipping my heels every time I went to visit her, as a child).
The owner of the German Shepherd has two of them actually, and the original one is well behaved and quite responsive to her owner’s voice. The other one is very aggressive and I believe it was a rescue (so perhaps it was mistreated.) Anyway, they were both charging me, it turns out – so that was part of the problem: I couldn’t tell if it was the nice one, the mean one or both. The laundry basket was blocking my view and I was trapped in the stairwell.
WhoCares, I think it is a ‘thing’, consider that maybe the more aggressive of the two ‘overpowers’ the second one? Yes, I would be inclined to agree on the rescue (and previously abused) because I’ve seen that in dogs especially. Sorry, I laughed at the “half-sedated Golden Retriever” (not the fact it bit you), because those dogs tend to be really soft. Good thing you did not get hurt because of where you were at the time.
Well, Asp Emp – re: the Golden, it was kind of my own fault…my hands *were* in his mouth you see – because he had just come out of surgery (still had the tube down his throat and tied to his muzzle) and he was just coming to from the effects of the anesthesia. (Highschool co-op placement at a veterinarian clinic.)
All the other staff were, unfortunately, were involved in attempting to get Mikey, a deranged Siamese cat (regular client whose kennel cage you venture past with great care and a wide berth) into The Cat Bag before he latched on to and bit a staff member. (It is still kind of comical to my memory seeing all of them, like four pairs of hands – including a male vet over 6′ wearing those thick leather gloves – wrestle poor Mikey.
Anyway, I was only a student but I had to address the dog coming to – or he would have choked I suppose…sadly, I looked away for second, at the cat bag chaos, while attempting to remove the tube and the dog bit down on my finger.
So, not really the poor dog’s fault or even normally in his nature.
Good times.
I decided I didn’t really want to be a vet.
Laughing…….at the “deranged Siamese cat” (did it belong to Jada P Smith by any chance 😉 )? Oh, thank you, you made me laugh, WhoCares. Yes, work experience is good as a on-hands ‘what would it be like’ test. I did a couple of work experiences myself, I did do admin some years later. That cat! Laughing.
Asp Emp,
Mikey was memorable.
@ WhoCares in regards to her question about the dog, who bit me….Yes, he had his shots and I don’t think he was going for me, he wanted my dog and I got in the way. He was focused totally on my dog and evading his owner’s attempts to grab him, he kept circling my dog and me, it was really intense and I was full of adrenaline and wired up from it.
When the dog was restrained, we left and I checked my dog again. I ended up going to the MedExpress, getting a tetanus shot and the wounds being cleaned. Lucky for me, the dog bit me through my jacket, otherwise there would have been more damage. As it was, it looked like a vampire bite and it bruised too. I sent pics to HG, as a way of saying, check this wound out, my Savior side getting me in trouble again. 😂 I can say one thing, that is the third time I saved my dog from another dog, my dog must say something to these dogs to be getting them to try and kick his ass. I’m just grateful his grumpy butt wasn’t hurt. Xx
“my dog must say something to these dogs to be getting them to try and kick his ass” Haha. I am glad you are both okay.
@Asp Emp and WhoCares,
I’m glad you got your ED done, Asp Emp!. 😂 Don’t worry, I always knew I wasn’t normal either! I reacted and got way more emotional when things happened, than my brother or mother. My dad was the only one, in my immediate family, who would react as strong as me and get emotional like me. I think my dad was an empath, most likely had some Carrier, Geyser and Codependent in him, just based on his behaviors and how responsible he was with his duties and family.He was highly emotional like me, I’ve seen him cry three times and each time, it was a very serious and deadly situation. His tears were from stress and fear of losing my mother or me. He wasn’t a weak man, he just deeply cared for us. I felt his fear and stress, and I felt bad for him and hurt for him. Seeing him cry, made me cry and then it just turned into a whole Geyser cry fest. Xx
HG,
Could I do an Empath Detector on my dad?? Xx Thanks for doing what you do! Xx I just want to know what he was, the school, the cadre…I need to know. Xx
No, you can do a narc detector on him though.
@HG, In regards to the ND on my dad….OK, I’ll do the ND on my dad, at least I’ll know what he was. Thank you HG xx
@Mary
The empath detector doesn’t tell you that you have CPTSD
It was a suggestion to use your ED results and learn what CPTSD is to better understand yourself
Thank you for that, Witch.
@ Asp Emp and WhoCares,
In regards to the comment about Empaths and German Shepherds…If German Shepherds are narcissist and they sense that we’re empaths, then that explains why I think they’re beautiful dogs and I’m drawn to them. 😂 I also like the Austrian breed and the name starts with a M. Their hair is shorter and they can jump really high, more muscular, more compact and Police K9 units have them a lot. They’re also beautiful and very intelligent. When I worked at night, there was a K9 officer, who would come in and talk with me. His dog , Potter, would let me pet him, but I made sure to move slowly around him because he was on duty and I sensed on edge and ready to strike on command, and I’m over there petting him. Smh at myself. I couldn’t resist petting him. 😂
Hello Mary, no, I am not suggesting that the EDC “confirms” CPTSD.
Hi Mary, I’ve done the empath and trait detectors. The empath detector will tell you if you’re narcissistic, normal or an empath. If you’re an empath, you will also be told your school and cadre and what type of narc will be attracted to you. The TDC gives you a breakdown of your empathic & narcissistic traits, such as caretaker, love devotee, justice, infidelity, showcasing, defiance, pride, etc.
I’ve done some research on CPTSD myself and I don’t believe it’s basically the same as the empath detector. However, the empath & trait detectors are fantastic tools to learn about yourself. Mr. Tudor really knows his stuff. I hope you do decide to do them.
@emc
You can use a pseudonym to maintain your privacy. People don’t have to relate to something to be interested in it.
I’m a dash of contagion- I’ve had a vision once about something happening just before it did. Many people don’t see intuition as logical because they don’t experience it and rely only on hard evidence. People can get killed relying on hard evidence so intuition and feeling that something is going to go wrong because you’re picking up on subtle cues or details that some other people may miss is useful. I’m interested in majority contagions and what they experience
Trust your gut! Lol
Hi Witch
Re: Distancing from non-biological being easier.
Possibly, likely even at first thought. Although I wonder in the case of some DNA with no further interaction vs no DNA but a lifetime of influence, which would have more effect on that ability. In my case, though my main abuser was my stepfather, I also thought my mother was mentally ill (but in a different way than him) so I put little to no stock in what she had to offer either. Any protection of her was tied to the effect it had on myself and my siblings and that continued until they could leave on their own (albeit the damage was done at that point). The only difficulty in distancing from her was in losing them. Also, I met my biological father much later in life. I spent a few days where he lived and met with him several times (but did not stay in his home). I don’t know what he is, but I sensed he wanted more from me than he was going to offer, so I left it at that visit. He tried to pursue me after that but I cut ties permanently when I saw increasingly that was likely the case (due to his communications). So I have had DNA and non DNA interaction and influence. The decision for me is in how this person (whomever they may be and whatever label they have) affects me. If it is not positive or beneficial I distance/sever. We did not get to choose those who share our DNA, but we do get to choose how much we allow them to influence the balance of our lives once we are of age and free of them no matter their label. People ask me (repeatedly) about guilt (for distancing) and my response to that is that guilt is nothing but a sneaky conduit to continuing abuse. No, I have none.
@NA
Thank you for explaining
It’s definitely genetic then
I’m pretty sure I’ve got complex PTSD from my parents
People definitely deal with things in different ways and I’ve observed that with my siblings too.
I have felt temporary feelings of guilt for not having contact with my mum and HG helped me with that on one occasion. But I don’t feel guilty anymore and I feel she is better of dead and I don’t feel guilty about knowing she is better of dead. Same with my dad, but at least my dad contributes to society in some way by having a job.
One of my sisters, she likes to play tough, says she doesn’t feel guilty, claims nothing bothers her but I know that isn’t the case because if it was for real she would have stopped contact and not allowed her child to be around her. She stays in contact because she feels guilty because trust me this woman has zero to offer so there can be no other reason. So I know she’s suffering even if she won’t admit it because of her high trait of pride. But actions speak louder than words. And actions indicate denial and dishonesty
Actually I’ve looked and I don’t really fit the diagnostic criteria for PTSD and I don’t meet the requirement for “avoidance of reminders” also don’t have persistent difficulty in maintaining relationships
I also don’t really have flashbacks or intrusive memories as such, I just remember what happened
but I don’t really trust all diagnostic criteria’s because they often only consider the most extreme symptoms- the most severe coping mechanisms
So if you’re able to maintain a normal life even if it’s difficult to do so, even if you wake up feeling anxious just because the air is cold… it’s like “don’t worry you’re fine”
@Witch, what’s equally confusing to me is that I do fit much of the diagnosis for PTSD, don’t remember if complex or not at this moment, but I always thought “Life is hard, that’s normal.”, and just carried on because what other choice is there. The help I sought out at particularly difficult times didn’t pick up on this, the possibility of PTSD, at any point. What is wrong with our world?! And I believe they need a dx for anyone who’s been involved with narcissists also.
@Av
What’s a DX?
Dx is diagnosis.
I definitely need a diagnosis because I’m not normal
Me too! Seriously though, we’ve been affected by this personality disorder, at some level or another, and it does leave many, if not most, of us a bit of a mess. If we could have an official diagnosis with actual steps, probably from HG, for our recovery, it might be taken more seriously in the larger world. It would bring a focus to it like nothing else can.
@AV
Let me have a little Megan Markle moan….
The government should be paying for my psychotherapy 😂
😂 Same!
Hey Witch and others! Notice “what the Contagian Does” is so popular? Wonder why?
Contagious : “Hey Witch and others! Notice “what the Contagian Does” is so popular? Wonder why?”
Hi Contagious, maybe it is because it’s contagious hehe…
Great reply! I just was thinking if contagian is the rarer of the cadre why so much attention on the blog. You don’t see as much from super, geyser, Cod etc…
It is because less is written about it and furthermore the rarity aspect is for a majority contagion, plenty of people have minority aspects.
“The decision for me is in how this person (whomever they may be and whatever label they have) affects me.” This is a great measuring stick. Thank you NA.
“People ask me (repeatedly) about guilt (for distancing) and my response to that is that guilt is nothing but a sneaky conduit to continuing abuse.”
Thank you, NA!
NA,
You make a great many good, logical points. There’s a lot there to think about, particularly regarding “guilt is nothing but a sneaky conduit to continuing abuse.”
Thank you for sharing.
I don’t have guilt over distancing either. None. I have thought that it’s the combo of my Super with my lack of CoD that makes this do. Maybe, or the dismissive-avoidant thing, maybe both. But my daughter doesn’t feel guilt after separating either and she is CoD so it’s probably the Super on it’s own, which she has a dollop of, or the DA. Thanks for your comment.
Hello AC–
Thank you for sharing!
I’m not familiar with the dismissive-avoidant attachment style. I’ll look it up and read some more.
“They don’t usually dismiss lighter friendships and can have many friends, fun activities and cool jobs/career.” Narcissists can have successful jobs/careers and many friends.
“It is SOLELY their spouse, and I guess their children too, who suffer.” — What about someone who want to be closer friends?
“My guess is that the avoidant felt as though he needed to be the solid rock for his parents, smiling, seeming strong and kind, not affected by them neglecting their son. A survival strategy.” — Or not wanting give them more fuel (if the parent is a narcissist) and/or be attacked verbally and/or physically.
“I was very taken by reading about this, and understood that this was my exboyfriend’s life and situation (we met again a few montessori ago after 22 years apart). Often some of us empaths are drawn to all kinds of difficult people in need, not just narcissists.” — There are all sorts of people in need. Someone are difficult and can be helped. And I think some don’t want help or don’t want to admit that they need help.
“With a lot of therapy they sometimes get well, but until they learn to acknowledge their feelings, DAs will evade and stonewall/gaslight, in certain situations.” — I hope that most get better, and that if they want to have healthy romantic relationships/relationships with their children that they get to do so.
I guess close friends suffer too, Dani.
And the problem is probably Alexithymia, not being able to name one’s own feelings. Consciousness in humans has a lot to do with naming things, communicating.
Due to childhood neglect. Often it wasn’t outright abuse towards the DA, just parents not being present, maybe worked a lot, I guess, and the child not having any NPD genes, so becoming a narc to cope with childhood wasn’t an option for them.
This is so interesting AC! Thank you so much for sharing about this. I have a person who I’ve been in contact with for 3 years or so. About a month ago she asked me to meet for dinner. When we arrived, toward the end of the time, I said, “Oh, there’s something I wanted to tell you. We’re friends now!”. She sat there and kind of said “Oh, okay .. ” which at the time I didn’t catch really. Later she texted me and apologized, she hadn’t known how to respond, in her mind we’d been friends since the first time we’d had dinner together 3 years before! I was surprised by that! I had been surprised to realize that I’d decided she was a friend! I could still right now walk away and never talk with her again and not miss her. That is terrible and so not empathic, I am aware. But I cannot be bound to people. I don’t see the need or understand how it works. I am bound to my children and maybe to their children. But this is exactly why I don’t reach out to other people. I don’t feel of value to them, I don’t understand why I’d be of value to them, if they and I parted ways, no loss for me. And the not seeing my value isn’t terrible for me, it’s how I also view them.
We moved 10 times in my first 12 years, my parents did not know how to bond, being narcs, and in fact were not even nice so that I’d want to bond with them. So, I just don’t, don’t get it. I so much appreciate you writing this here, I need to look at this. And the labeling part, so important, but even before one can label, one must know there is something to label. This is even an issue. My saving grace, as an empath, is that when I am with a person, I am present. I never set out to hurt another, or be dismissive.
People don’t know I am this way because of how I am when we’re together. That’s where my empathy comes out. But this is tiring for me so I don’t do it often. Thank you AC, this is more for me to ponder and sort through, really appreciate it.
Oh no, I just realized the ones I have “bonded” to are the narcs, the romantic ones, that’s the addiction! Until the line is drawn and I’m out. Arg, I hate narcissism.
Hi AV! Xx This is a response to your comment about yourself being a cold person….You’re not cold at all. Xx You’ve always been kind to me, welcoming and helpful, when I needed it most. You have a good heart. Thank you for being you and I appreciate you! Xx 🥰❤️
Omg, AV, this is so bloody interesting.
I didn’t think you and I were so different from eachother, it seems we are! I actually had the idea you and I are quite similar. 🙂 There you go, surprise.
I do have a shy side, but most of the time instead I kind of wear my heart on my sleeve. My feelings are written all over my face. Not spectacularly much, but still.
” I could still right now walk away and never talk with her again and not miss her. That is terrible and so not empathic, I am aware.”
Oh, God, I was a bit startled that you had told her “We are now friends!” after all this time. Lol. So endearing. I’m laughing a bit right now, sorry. I feel like your friend.
I think you seem very empathic, A Victor! But your story tells me you are not able to express your emotions and your empathy at times. You seem to work on it by doing exercises, naming your feelings, discovering them.
I guess your old self-soothing periods can become shorter that way. Your emotional bandwidth broadened, etc. That’s what I heard.
“But this is tiring for me so I don’t do it often.”
Of course. I imagine.
And I, on my end, have really had to meditate to work on becoming less anxious, more secure. Music and exercise has helped.
I easily turn into The Racing Mind, as HG describes in the post with that name. The “puzzle solver”.
Thank you AC, for your kind words and for not just rejecting me out of hand for this. Reading our comments back I am so ashamed to be so cold, and feel very vulnerable having put it here. Maybe shouldn’t have done that. But sometimes when things are exposed, they can be healed.
I have been told that I wear my heart on my sleeve also, that people always know what I’m feeling, I think it was a narc that told me this. I have also been told that I am impossible to read, I am actually quite good at poker. When Bubbles recently mentioned her RBF, I giggled at the idea of her trying this but also remembered that I can do this quite well, even if it has been a while since I’ve felt the need to. It is tiring to do it.
Seeing the video that HG did of Princess Kate (I hope that’s the proper title) and the ease at which she moved within her emotions, I thought, yes, that’s how it should be, it’s okay if I’m like that too! And I can, except that it’s not safe to in most settings, or that’s the message I’d accepted. No more, that message is going away. And as I identify more emotions, it will be easier to move within them when they happen, I am hoping. It is a victory for me every time I feel a new emotion, I will usually just sit and let myself feel it, where it hits in my body and I really work to connect it in my mind, so that I recognize it when it happens again. Even in the midst of activity I have done this because it is so important. But sadly they don’t come clearly very often so it is a slow process.
I was surprised at realizing I’d accepted my friend as a friend also, that was the first in person time that has happened. It is still a bit scary, what kind of expectations will she possibly have of me? And what am I expected to have of her? I don’t want any since it might make me feel obligated in some way and that’s just pressure then. I know this is immature on my part but it is seriously a thing I don’t understand and it’s easy to get overwhelmed by others expectations.
Thank you for saying you feel like my friend, that actually does mean a lot. People who say it straight out do get a special place in my heart, which is odd maybe, but true. I think the screen helps a great deal, I have online friends from a variety of places, most of whom are more valuable to me than most of my in person friends. The screen is a safety shield and also gives time to think before responding, what do I actually feel here, or if not that, how is my empathy affecting my thought process. This was true on a subconscious level even prior to learning about narcissism.
Sorry about this very long comment. But again I thank you AC. And as always you also HG, for this place to sort these things out.
PS, no worries about the laughing, I laugh at myself too! All the time! And I will check out the Racing Mind again also, thanks.
A Victor
Well I think it is best to listen to what nonnarcs say about us instead of what narcs say, often narcs lovebomb by meeting our unmet needs. Saying what no one else says. They can sense that we feel lonely.
But as I ve been reading here at Narcsite through the years, I would also get the impression that you are direct about your feelings.
So it was a total surprise to me what you had said to your friend of 3 years. 🙂
My father was an empath, and spent a lot of time with me, maybe this contributed to the fact that I’m quite open about my feelings.
I understand you not having learnt that people can ne trusted if both your parents were narcs. That’s crap and I wish you had a different childhood experience.
Being too anxious is also about not really showing empathy.
Constantly nervously asking the other person if I was good enough. Apologizing a lot. Etc. That’s collapsing and not really listening to the other person.
After not being in contact with narcs, not being their primary or secondary source, I have become calm enough to be more patient with people, giving them space, which is what they need.
It has worked remarkably well, distancing from narcissists is key, as HG says. The first thing to do, in chronological order…
Thank you AC, I emailed your comment to myself so I can break it down further, without having to find it on this enormous thread. There is a lot there to consider, thank you very much.
AV, you are absolutely not a “cold” person. You are a warm and calm woman.
You have a calming influence.
Joa, this means a lot to me, more than you know, thank you.
Hey Victor: love is rare. True love. Friendship love is easy. Maybe you just have not met the right one and it will happen. I would not write it off on an uneasy past. I would stay open to it. I would not be surprised if an empath like you said AHA! But those other loving relations are cherished too like kids! Xxx
Yes Contagious, what you say is true. I haven’t written anything off completely but have become okay whatever happens. Thank you for your kind words of encouragement, they mean a lot to me.
Hi Dani: Iiked your thoughts about how a child would be the rock or adult for both parents. That was me. My parents married young. My momwas17and my dad was 19. She had me at 21. They had lots of issues. He was an alcoholic and a Vietnam vet but a very very kind man. She had unstable parents and I think was over whelmed. I was told I was tough. Strong. The capable child. Plus I was tested gifted. I was the oldest of three. I remember going to a church and a nun asking me at a retreat what it felt like when my mother hugged me. I said she needs me. I think if you ask yourself today: am I loved? I would say yes. God. Yes. My father unconditionally. My mother with limits. My friends. Yes. My kids . Yes. My husband. Yes. But he has issues. I think if you feel loved even if not family, it is ok. Not all lov in adulthood needs to be from parents. It’s not easy if not so but they go. Love comes from many sources. Go to it, that’s my creed. And above all, give it even if you were not loved the way every human deserves! Btw I am not avoidant;)
Hi, contagious,
sorry, it was me who pondered the Rock-for-the-parents, this is in different ways expressed in litterature.
The Dismissive-Avoidant was often extremely much encouraged to be on their own, no acknowledgement of emotions offered, because the parents were stressed out from work, or maybe abusive.
This exboyfriend is a person who is allergic to conflict, criticism or drama, and prefers to smile and handle things with (unconscious!) stonewalling. (I don’t mean like A Victor here, who might not at all, DAs must not do stonewalling/gaslighting,
but some CAN do, to avoid conflict)
Smile kept on the face. No vulnerability shown.
But he doesn’t require the spotlight, nor victim-spotlight, like a narcissist does. His feelings
don’t determine the whole room. Huge difference.
Hi AC and Contagious,
I relate again so much to this behavior of the dismissive avoidant. Though I am beginning to see how it is the empath/narc dynamic, for some empaths anyway. HG has written about our smile, that hides it all, for example.
But yes, the avoiding of conflict has been huge for me. Way beyond what I ever realized. I don’t think I gaslit anyone ever, that seems a little devious for an empath to do. Maybe some empath has. In my case though, I mostly just stuck my head in the sand, also not productive, but so much safer, until it allows for narcs into one’s life. That’s the downside and it’s huge.
Thinking about it a bit more, I think maybe it was a case of gaslighting myself really, looking back, just denying the truth as I saw it. To avoid conflict and also accept behavior that was not good so that I could still have the relationship. I didn’t feel I deserved better treatment, so it was fitting in that regard.
Hello AV. You don’t strike me as having a dismissive avoidant attachment style, if I consider your comments on the blog. But you could have the ‘disorganised’ style which means you move between avoidant and anxious depending on the context or other people involved.
How is dismissive avoidant different if it is from what we called in the 90s as fear of commitment? When you read about the self sufficient lone wolf who avoids intimacy it reminds me of dating in the 90s when the term commitment phobic was popular. I always felt it was someone who disliked responsibility. Someone who wanted to do what they wanted to do without having to compromise. I recall asking my 5 year wealthy boyfriend at the time: if a car was coming at me what would you do? He said I would instinctively put myself in front of you. But he did not want marriage or kids at late 30s. I said “ so you would die for me but you won’t marry me.” I left him crushed as I wanted kids and wrote a legal thriller at 28 called Harmless Error exploring the theme of commitment phobia. It sure sounds like avoidant dismissive. ???
Hi Contagious, I think you make sense here, I’ve realized as I’ve thought about it that dismissive avoidant is also, in my thinking anyway, the symbiotic dance that narcs and empaths do, we likely both have attachment issues at some level, the difference getting that empaths can overcome them and the narcs can’t. For me though, it is helpful to know this different label since there may be some things done to help overcome that I can then employ. HG has given many things that have helped, just knowing about it is a huge step ahead. I am not convinced that there are good therapies but it doesn’t hurt to investigate. I know HG’s work does work toward getting the ET down and allowing this to be processed with a clear mind. Learning to go to the logic is also huge. And knowing that as an empath, I should have the capacity for attachment, also helpful.
It does, Contagious.
Your Ex seems like a DA.
We empaths attract difficult individuals.
I told the exboyfriend I’m good being friends. He still sends long texts about our geekdoms a couple of times a week. Facts and everything.
Who Cares–
You said that looking back you can see themes from the beginning…what do you mean by themes? Do you mean targeting of certain traits/feelings? What were those themes? If you’re comfortable sharing that.
Hi Dani,
“I imagine that gaslighting takes place deeper into an abusive relationship, when prolonged abuse has taken its toll and the cloudiness of ET is at its worst. In those circumstances I suspect the empath still feels the lie, she just doubts her own instinct and is too worn down to fight.” — I think it starts slowly. I don’t know. I’ve not spoken to many people who’ve experienced it, and I think there are misconceptions. My experience with what I understand gaslighting to be (based on my experiences) is that it starts as denial (of one thing or another), and it’s accompanied by insults, diminution of another’s experience or feelings, insults, pity plays, and more. It all comes together in a disgusting mixture that wears a person down. I could have some misconceptions about gaslighting. I could be confusing it with other manipulations. If it isn’t too upsetting to anyone, I would be grateful to hear/read thoughts.
“Let’s face it most people lie in some form or another, what’s often more important is the reason for the lie.” — I agree most people lie. I don’t know that the reason is the most important aspect. From what I’ve seen, not everyone knows the reason for their lies. I’ve seen people deny incredible levels of evidence. Whether it’s because they’re unaware of how they look or it’s because the truth makes them look incompetent or the truth just hurts too much.
“When it comes to distressing scenes on tv, I do get upset by them yes. Some films I can’t watch, particularly if they depict mistreatment of children or animals.” Same. I think I’m a mix. I think with some things it’s my feelings and me empathizing and some is absorbing emotion. There are certain genres (and the emotions conveyed with them) that overwhelm me, and I avoid them. There are others that don’t cause the same effect.
How do your children express their feelings about you reading them? Has this changed from when they were little to when they were teens?
“I think the general perception of the Super is that the individual has higher narcissistic traits therefore those traits show more often. Personally I don’t think it’s the narcissistic traits that are most important with the SE. It’s the empathic traits that are more important and the way they are used. That’s just my view though. Others might well disagree.” — I agree in part. But I think the higher narcissistic traits play a role as well, and that the way empathic traits might work in tandem with the narcissistic ones also plays a role. That’s the way it sounds to me from HG’s descriptions. I don’t mind reading/listening to other opinions.
“I also didn’t want to book his time when other empaths might have been in greater need of it. I have since consulted with HG several times and looking back, feel it would have been beneficial to have consulted with him earlier.” — That’s comforting to me. The first sentence is a thought that has definitely been in my head. I imagine there are others who share or have shared that thought. I have the wariness, too. I feel quite certain that I could get clarity and insight on some matters with HG’s help that isn’t available anywhere else that I’ve found.
“Yes HG has addressed the misconceptions surrounding the Super Empath. At the time of my EDC a few of his YouTube videos relating to this school had not yet been released, so the kickass imagery was still alive and …kicking.” — I’ve seen the videos in my suggestions. I stay away from those as per HG already explaining it so well.
“Yes, HG knows his stuff. His understanding of empaths is both reassuring and concerning. I don’t like the feeling that I might be predictable.” — HG does indeed, and the understanding he has of all people is impressive.
“Got to keep it moving, duck, dive, change direction haha!” — The proverbial arms race between narcs and empaths…thankfully the empaths have a treacherous narc of the highest quality to assist them…if only because it furthers his goals of a legacy and the chaos amuses him. I remember, also, HG stating that it amused him to imagine the other narcs ‘stamping their feet,’ and having tantrums as they’re thwarted by his vastly superior intellect.
“I would imagine that many empaths look back at their detectors and ponder if they have changed at all. Truthseekers will tend to go that route, at least I think they would, would they?” — It would be interesting to hear from others who’ve taken the empath detector about this. Initial feelings and have you gone back and explored the answers when emotional thinking has dropped.
“It’s always better to know and fully understand your empathic make up in my view. That way you recognise your own drivers and can better see how narcs might play on them.” — Makes sense to me.
“Yes, I’m English, from Lancashire originally. I’ve moved around a lot though.” Yay, Lancashire! Red Rose!
“HG has referenced various meanings for the H and G. Hurt God was one. Probably for the same reason he likes Depeche Mode. 😜 Was Huge Gonads another? I think so haha!” Yes, HG has indeed suggested those two meanings.
Thank you for sharing the story about James. He sounds like an absolute delight. It really helped me understand.
Hi Dani,
“ I could have some misconceptions about gaslighting” Me too. I haven’t been involved in any discussions about gaslighting on the blog prior to this one. Lots about the various manipulations but not gaslighting specifically.
About lies. Most narcs certainly wouldn’t recognise their own lies, only the Greaters and Ultra. I think other categories of people do though. All kinds of reasons from self defence, not wanting to offend or cause argument, not wanting to discuss a sensitive topic through to lying just because they get away with it. The discomfort people generally experience when they lie I think might be in part what the Contagion picks up on. There’s an awkwardness there when people lie, it feels clunky, sticks out like a sore thumb. Wandering off topic there a bit.
Yes the interplay between narc and empath traits will govern the behaviour of the SE, agree. What I meant originally is that people seem to focus on the narc traits of the SE, there seems to be less discussion around the empathic traits when the subject of the SE comes up. Again, I might not have seen those threads though.
In terms of consultations, I’m glad you felt comforted by my response. No need to be wary. I’d say, be excited instead, consultations are something to look forward to.
Laughing at your arms race comment. True that. Yes, HG likes to win, removing us from the damaging influence of our respective narcs and preventing future ensnarement is done for his legacy but there’s also the winning element too I think.
If I’m the only empath that looked back on her detector answers at a later date then I’m definitely blaming those higher narcy traits!! Blameshift, rejection of accountability. Double points there!
Yes, red rose indeed. Are you from that neck of the woods also?
My kids are used to me knowing a lot about how they feel. I don’t invade privacy though, I usually let them tell me they had a bad day rather than asking why they had a bad day! The funniest part is them trying to lie. When they were younger it made me laugh but it still tickles me now they are teens. My daughter is a tougher read if I’m not concentrating. My son though is helpless trying to lie. I used to say “ Would you like to reconsider what you said there? Have another go?” Haha! My son is already half smiling before he finishes. He screams guilty ! They don’t really bother trying now. Easier just to give it to me straight. Ask me, tell me, whatever. My main aim is to prevent them feeling they need to lie to me in the first place. Easier all round.
I’m glad the James story was helpful. You got me reminiscing about our time in France, happy time in my life, I hadn’t thought about it in a while 🙂
Xx
Hi Truthseeker–
“Lots about the various manipulations but not gaslighting specifically.” — I think gaslighting is various manipulations working in tandem. To me, gaslighting is something of the whole picture and the end result…but what I currently define as the most damaging for me is the result of the denials. I’m sure gaslighting can start in other ways, too. Some denials have been subtle. Some have been very confrontational.
“About lies. Most narcs certainly wouldn’t recognise their own lies, only the Greaters and Ultra.” — Yes.
“I think other categories of people do though. All kinds of reasons from self defence, not wanting to offend or cause argument, not wanting to discuss a sensitive topic through to lying just because they get away with it.” — I disagree. I don’t think they always do. If something terrible happens to a person, there is the power to deny it. I don’t know that people are always aware when they live in a state of denial. And I don’t know that that state of denial (be it about one event or multiple) makes them a narcissist. Though, in my experience, the denial around that/those event/s does result in manipulative behaviours. I think the trigger could be emotional, and the person may be unaware. Or they may think they’re saying something good from a place of caring without seeing the pain that it causes. Maybe they don’t mind the pain the other person is in; maybe they’re oblivious to it. I don’t know. I think these behaviours can be recurrent and long-lasting regarding that/those event/s because reality is too much for that person/family unit. I could be missing the target.
“Yes the interplay between narc and empath traits will govern the behaviour of the SE, agree. What I meant originally is that people seem to focus on the narc traits of the SE, there seems to be less discussion around the empathic traits when the subject of the SE comes up. Again, I might not have seen those threads though.” — I agree with that. And I hope HG has time soon to talk a bit more about super empaths as well. Despite having read the articles and listened to videos, I still think I’m missing the full picture. I’m sure HG sees where they are, and he will address them.
“In terms of consultations, I’m glad you felt comforted by my response. No need to be wary. I’d say, be excited instead, consultations are something to look forward to.” —
“Laughing at your arms race comment. True that. Yes, HG likes to win, removing us from the damaging influence of our respective narcs and preventing future ensnarement is done for his legacy but there’s also the winning element too I think.” — Definitely, HG is a winner.
“If I’m the only empath that looked back on her detector answers at a later date then I’m definitely blaming those higher narcy traits!! Blameshift, rejection of accountability. Double points there!” — TS, for the win!
Yes, red rose indeed. Are you from that neck of the woods also? — Nope. But I know a smidgeon of history about England and Scotland…not so much about Wales, though I understand Cardiff Castle is lovely.
“My main aim is to prevent them feeling they need to lie to me in the first place. Easier all round.” — I think that’s one of the best things you can do for children.
Hi Dani,
I see your thinking on denial. People can and do live in a state of denial. It’s probably a defence mechanism. As a base example. An individual diagnosed with terminal cancer might deny their diagnosis, believe they will be cured. Likely because this enables them to cope better. Others might approach it differently, but in this case, the living in denial I think, is very much linked to a mental self defence.
Similarly, it could be argued that the empath lives in a state of denial when ensnared. She believes that things will get better, she believes the excuses she makes for the poor behaviour of the narcissist, stress at work etc. It’s cognitive dissonance but in a way it’s denial too. The empath isn’t consciously lying but rather is in denial.
Following that train of thought, the Midrangers and Lessers also are beholden to their narcissism rewriting history. A key part of the narcissistic defence is denial. If a Lower Midranger or more likely a Lesser narcissist hit me in the face I could say with certainty “You hit me”. The narcissist could deny it. He might claim he was moving an eyelash from my cheek, I slapped his hand away and caught my own cheek with my own hand. From my perspective he’s lying. He hit me and I know it. From his perspective, he didn’t hit me at all, I hurt myself. His narcissism in effect places him in a state of denial. So if he doesn’t know he is lying can I call him a liar? Damn right I can. My perspective is the majority perspective. The world runs on my perspective and not his. But I can accept it’s a blurred line. If assigning blame, or more so punishment, then in many ways the narcissist isn’t all that much different from the terminal cancer sufferer, both are living in denial.
I think for me, I separate into ‘denying something that happens’ (conscious) or ‘being in denial about something that happens’ (not conscious). In terms of living in denial I think for me it would have to be taken on a case by case basis. The reason for the denial would have to be considered if determining an outright lie or an unaware lie.
This I think is where Contagion empathy falls down. We feel a lie if it is a conscious lie, but I question if we would feel an unconscious lie, or the lie of someone in denial. Likely why the Midranger manages to get past the lie detector of the empath. Their lie is their truth so it wouldn’t necessarily ‘feel’ like a lie to us. Empaths in general are in tune to people so I think this also applies to those that don’t have Contagion in their school make up. The narcissist might call me ‘the most beautiful girl in the world’ do I truly believe that? Of course not, but I might be happy to go along with it at the time and enter into a little self denial myself! Haha!
I see what you mean, it isn’t cut and dried, there are exceptions.
Thank you for your kind words about my approach with my children. They don’t come with an instruction manual and sometimes it’s just nice to get positive feedback 🙂
I don’t know much about Wales either, which is ridiculous because it’s close to where I live now. I plan to go camping there this summer. I’d like to explore Scotland more too. I got married in Perth, but that’s as far North as I went. Something else I plan to rectify in the hopefully not too distant future!
Xx
Hi TruthSeeker,
“In this case, the living in denial I think, is very much linked to a mental self defence.” — Fair point. But sometimes that mental self defence can become mental abuse to someone else.
“I think for me, I separate into ‘denying something that happens’ (conscious) or ‘being in denial about something that happens’ (not conscious).” — It seems a logical line of division. I don’t know that one results in more abuse than the other when that denial impacts on someone else.
…Possible trigger warning (not graphic) between the asterisks READ WITH CAUTION…
*Say a father sexually abuses a child. The child goes to their mother for help. The mother denies it’s happening. She may not have seen it or seen anything she would identify as signs of it. Presumably, the mother loves the father, and the father isn’t doing anything she identifies as abusive toward her child when she can see it. The father also denies what’s happening.*
“In terms of living in denial I think for me it would have to be taken on a case by case basis. The reason for the denial would have to be considered if determining an outright lie or an unaware lie.” — Fair enough. To my thinking, the damage is the horrendous regardless of the reason.
“I don’t know much about Wales either, which is ridiculous because it’s close to where I live now. I plan to go camping there this summer. I’d like to explore Scotland more too. I got married in Perth, but that’s as far North as I went. Something else I plan to rectify in the hopefully not too distant future!” — That’ll be so much fun, camping in Wales. Exploring Scotland also sounds fun. Any particular locations you’ve considered?
Hi Dani,
I think if looking at the impact denial can have on someone else and taking the example you gave, the father is guilty, he was the abuser. His denial damages the child via the continuation of the abuse and the denial that he is abusing that child at all. The mother is not the abuser and is in a state of denial. In some ways she does more damage to the child than the father by refusing to act on the account of the child and by allowing the abuse to continue. So yes, here the denial by the two parents is equally as damaging to the child in my opinion.
When kids are involved I confess I’m not very sympathetic to the plight of the mother. In this example, I can say that she is in denial as to what is happening. I can say that she is likely trapped in an abusive relationship herself therefore deserves my sympathy and understanding. I’m afraid though in this example I can’t give it. The mother being in denial is not enough reason for me here. The job of the mother is to protect a child above all else including the husband and my empathy will not see past the damage to the innocent in that scenario, in fact my response to the mother in that particular scenario would likely be one of anger.
Places I’d like to see in Scotland. Edinburgh, I’m almost ashamed to admit that I haven’t been. Dumfries and Galloway is an area my dad really likes so I’d like to take a drive round there. Inverness and Victoria Falls. It would be nice to rent a place in the middle of nowhere and just explore.
Wales is easier, Brecon Beacons National park is quite close to me. I’d like to go back to lake Bala in Wales because I visited as a little kid and also Snowdonia National Park. I’d like to camp in Wales. At the moment the kids like their WiFi and creature comforts but if I was going without kids again, I’d take the ‘in the middle of nowhere’ option. A couple more years and I’ll have my travelling shoes back on, then I’m off haha!
Xx
Hello Truthseeker–
I agree that both parents are guilty of damage. That both denials hurt the innocent party. Only the victim can determine that the amount of hurt caused by the mother and the father. They may find one worse than the other; they may find them equal. They may go back and forth, even as they try to forget about it.
You said that you didn’t find the mother abusive for being in denial. She took the father’s side.
I’d like to run the clock forward in this example. Say we’re twenty years later. Father is dead. A prominent story runs in the news for three weeks about a father on trial accused of molesting his children. The news source the mother watches largely reports that these are false accusations. So the mother repeatedly phones the child, telling that child about this case and how horrible what is happening to this other father is. How lucky the child was to have a father who “forgave the child for what they said.” The child needs to be grateful to the father for all he did for them. (Manipulations vary dependent upon the story the news wants to sell.) When the child asks for the mother to quit, she refuses. She continues in the behavior for the duration of time that the news is reporting about it. It stops shortly afterwards. It picks up again when the mother is exposed to a police/law drama on the TV that runs several episodes with this general storyline. It again stops once the TV show moves on to a different storyline.
How do you interpret the mother’s denial now?
I don’t know if this sounds absurd. I tend to think from what I’ve heard and read here that it probably doesn’t. It happens. I don’t know how common/uncommon it is.
They sound like teens…addicted to WiFi and comforts…I think the middle of nowhere option sounds ideal. Peaceful…and if there was a lovely cabin for rent in the Highlands, sounds wonderful.
Hi Dani,
Yes, the mother took the fathers side. She took his word over that of her daughter. At this point for me, the mother is not abusive. To my mind in this situation and at this point, she is unfit. She fails the child, but I don’t see her as complicit in the abuse.
If the mother witnessed the abuse, found evidence of abuse and ignored it, saw dramatic change in the child and chose to ignore it, then for me, she then becomes complicit in the abuse. This is unclear from the example so far.
However,
When we look at the mother’s behaviour 20 years later. I would have to ask if she is a narcissist. If she is, then her motivation at that point and 20 yrs prior would be different and based on the acquisition of the Prime Aims.
The fact that the mother keeps telephoning the child when the story is in the media, suggests a trigger to events of the past. The trigger causes the hoover ( the phone call) malign in this case because the child asked her to stop. Similarly the tv series looks like a trigger which again causes a malign hoover. It isn’t malign in that the mother directly refers back and accuses the child of lying, but it is malign in that it is done in a passive aggressive way, and, there is no empathy for the discomfort of the child when the child asks her to stop referring to it. You could argue that the mother is bringing up the past to assert control and draw fuel from the child in the now.
So in this example, given the behaviour of the mother 20 yrs later, I’d have to ask if the mother was actually in denial about the abuse in the first place or later, but rather was selfishly ignoring it because it suited her to do so in terms of the Prime Aims. For example, staying in the marriage because it afforded a more comfortable lifestyle, at the expense of a child who she has no emotional empathy for, whilst maintaining a public facade of ‘respectability.’ Later, bringing up the past to acquire the Prime Aims in the present.
Irrespective of whether the mother is in fact a narcissist herself, the repeated phone calls and the repeated bringing up the past that the mother engages in 20 years later demonstrates lack of empathy for the child, particularly in light of the fact that the child has shown discomfort with the behaviour of the mother and asked her to stop.
At best the mother is unfit. At worst she is a narcissist and therefore highly likely to be complicit in the abuse.
From the example provided and admittedly with limited evidence, the mother sounds like a narcissist to me.
Clarifying what the mother is, narcissist, empath or normal would give greater insight into the motivation behind the mother’s state of apparent denial I think.
Xx
Hello Truthseeker–
“…saw dramatic change in the child and chose to ignore it, then for me, she then becomes complicit in the abuse…” — That is fair. In regard to “dramatic change”…what other factors could be at play that the mother could attribute these changes to? What if the child is transitioning from primary to secondary school a time which coincides (generally speaking) with puberty? For that matter, the mother could have grown up during a time when the addressing of mental health concerns was handled differently, do to it being seen as more stigmatic (not that it isn’t still stigmatized, just that the stigma is reduced from past decades). The bad behavior to the daughter could be occurring at the same time the mother is experiencing a renewal of a golden period ((if the father is a narc) he could be a perverted normal or narcissistic person). I think plenty of excuses/explanations could be found.
This is unclear from the example so far. – Agreed. I find life has little clarity or maybe I consider too many different contingencies. Maybe I just want to believe that all people are redeemable on some level.
“When we look at the mother’s behaviour 20 years later. I would have to ask if she is a narcissist.” — In light of the abuse from the father being so blatant…what do you think is the likelihood that other abuses from the mother could or would be overlooked or not as noticeable in light of the other?
Could thinking that her child has been abused by a man she loved and trusted reduce the emotional empathy of a normal or empathic mother to the point that she behaves this way twenty years later when exposed to a trigger?
“You could argue that the mother is bringing up the past to assert control and draw fuel from the child in the now.” — You certainly could.
“…the repeated phone calls and the repeated bringing up the past that the mother engages in 20 years later demonstrates lack of empathy for the child, particularly in light of the fact that the child has shown discomfort…” — Agreed.
“Clarifying what the mother is, narcissist, empath or normal would give greater insight into the motivation behind the mother’s state of apparent denial I think.” — Highly likely. Reality is more complicated than my mix and match example that kept only the most basic details relating to the denial. For me, it’s difficult to sort out who is responsible for what. What could be empathy toward one person while demonstrating a lack of empathy towards another…it leaves me deeply confused.
Hi Dani,
I think as you say there are so many reasons that we could attribute to both mother and child when exploring reasons for behaviour in the example.
I remember during my own ensnarement, all the ‘what ifs’ I came up with as possible reasons for the narcissist’s behaviour towards me. We get bogged down in possibilities. We want an explanation and we rattle through all kinds of theories trying to find an answer. We want in many ways to see the good in people and often this confuses the issue more.
I remember filling in the narc detector and really wanting to say what I thought, I wanted to justify his actions and justify my own.
We come at things from the wrong direction. We try to explain the behaviours in the context of our own world view. The narcissist doesn’t share the same world view though so our reasoning and explanations could never have been correct.
So what does the logical mind do? Where does HG begin? He begins by determining what the person is. Is the individual a narcissist? If yes then the motivation for behaviour is based on the narcissistic perspective. If not then the majority perspective applies.
So in the example. We need to understand first what each person is. If the mother is a narcissist then her motivation is clear. If she isn’t, at that point we can look at other explanations for her behaviour using our own world view.
There can be many reasons why people lie or are in denial. If those people are close to us, then recognising the lie and considering the reasons for it is likely beneficial. If we understand then we are better placed to support. If not, maybe sometimes we don’t need to know. I agree the world really can be a confusing place and I’m starting to be more selective in terms of where I spend my energy in terms of understanding!
In answer to questions posed in the example.
There could be other factors influencing a dramatic change in a child’s behaviour. For me though, given the child confided abuse to the mother who ignored it, then the child changes dramatically I would find it difficult not to link the two. It also of course depends on the relationship between mother and child. How well does she understand her own child etc? You could also ask why the mother didn’t seek help, advice or a second opinion from a doctor or medical professional. Instead she simply dismisses the claim of the child in favour of the word of the father. As you said, there are many possible reasons for the mother’s behaviour including the possibility she is also a victim of abuse herself.
In terms of the child. If the child was suffering sexual abuse from the father, then I imagine emotional abuse from the mother might well be overlooked yes. I suspect that living in an environment like that, the focus of the child would be targeted at the most immediate and impactful danger. The greater threat. I don’t know this, but estimate it might well be the case.
Could thinking that her child had been abused by a man she loved reduce emotional empathy for the child when exposed to a trigger? If the mother is an empath I can’t imagine the mother blaming the child. I also can’t imagine her emotional empathy being so reduced that she intentionally causes discomfort on a repeated basis by bringing up the past. I don’t believe an empath would continue with the behaviour when asked to stop either. The empath is more likely to blame herself than the child. She’s also more likely to want to address it openly rather than alluding to it vaguely on a repeated basis. Similar the normal. The child sits well within the range of empathy for a normal. So the behaviour 20 years later points strongly to the behaviour of a narcissist in my view.
Could an empath demonstrate empathy for one person but not another? Yes. The non empathy would be a defensive response. The boundary line crossed and the flick of the empathy switch from ‘on’ to off. I’ve done this on several occasions and there is no way back from that point. I would find it impossible to do with my own children though, no matter what. So in context of this example I would find that unlikely.
In terms of wanting to believe in redemption for all. I’m afraid I don’t believe in that concept. Some actions are beyond my ability to forgive. I’m ok with that. I’m not proud of it particularly, some might say I’m too quick to dismiss or cut away. They might be right, but, I think we can only do what feels right for us in each situation as it arises.
An interesting conversation Dani 🙂
Xx
I’m still stuck on this point:
The mother taking the father’s side. Taking his word over her daughter’s and that not being complicit in the abuse. I don’t know that you need to witness the abuse or have evidence of it where a child is concerned. The denial (to me) makes her complicit.
My assessment at this point (subject to further information) is:
If the mother is a narcissist she is complicit in the abuse.
If she is not a narcissist she is still complicit in the abuse through denial as a form of neglect of her parental responsibility.
I don’t believe in personal denial as a valid defence in this situation (currently).
You raised valid points for consideration, NA good to read them.
NA,
I agree, parents, empaths and narcs alike, are complicit when there is abuse happening to their children, regardless of the source, and they don’t stop it. It is part of a parents primary responsibility to the child(ren) to protect them and even more so when it is happening in their home. I do not accept or understand how both parents are not held accountable when abuse has happened right under their nose.
My dad did not know what my mom was doing, my siblings hated him as much as her for his negligence, I did not, maybe I “needed” one parent to “love” me, I was in denial I guess. They were not.
As a parent myself, I have had to accept responsibility for the places I may have overlooked abuse from my ex to my children, and do what I can to make that right.
I agree that personal denial is not a defense. And also with Witch, that it doesn’t matter if the denial is from an empath or a narc, the result to the child is the same.
Hi NA,
I’m kind of stuck on it too. I know what my reaction would be in the situation but that’s mine not the mother’s so I struggle to separate the two and assess it fairly.
In terms of complicit, I think it means different things to different people. The literal meaning is “association or involvement in a wrongful act.” So in this sense the mother is physically present, she’s in the family home where the abuse takes place, so she’s involved and also associated. Therefore she is complicit in a literal sense.
The figurative meaning is where I was coming from. “Helping to commit a crime or do wrong.” I don’t see her as actively helping at that point, or rather she isn’t partaking in the abuse herself. It isn’t that she believes it’s happening and does nothing to stop it. She is in denial and doesn’t believe it’s happening at all. This is why I class her as unfit rather than complicit at this point. She isn’t knowingly contributing to the abuse, or trying to help the father abuse.
There’s a limit to that though for me. We don’t know how her relationship is with the child, why she is inclined not to believe the child and take the word of the father instead. But in any case, as a parent she has a responsibility as you say. So the child should be taken to a doctor or specialist, the child’s account should be investigated at the very least, ideally the child should have been removed from the father immediately; her duty is to protect the child, not the father.
The child’s behaviour alters markedly. The mother could put it down to puberty, change of school, all kinds of reasons but there comes a point where not believing / being in denial becomes wilful disbelief. In my mind that’s when she becomes complicit, as guilty as the father. She wilfully refuses to believe the abuse is taking place despite evidence to the contrary which supports the account of the child. The mother prefers to risk letting abuse continue as opposed to removing herself and her child from the family home.
I do find it tough to draw the line between what I see as genuine denial and wilful denial here I must admit, so I see your point on it too NA, very much so. I have limited sympathy for the mother in the example, my sympathy lies with the child, which is probably indicative in itself.
Agree, if a narcissist then the mother is complicit because either way, the motivation would be self serving in terms of staying or leaving and in terms of the denial.
Xx
Truthseeker–
“We want in many ways to see the good in people and often this confuses the issue more.” — Agreed.
“I remember filling in the narc detector and really wanting to say what I thought, I wanted to justify his actions and justify my own.” — I understand doing so, spending large amounts of time trying to figure it out and then explain. Did it seem easy to do? Did your justifications feel logical?
“The narcissist doesn’t share the same world view though so our reasoning and explanations could never have been correct.” — Agreed.
“If not then the majority perspective applies.” — I understand what is meant by this is the societal majority perspective…but in the completely new scenario (Scenario 2) of say…a two parent, three child family where four have no sense of boundary recognition…and the fifth is tired of all the violations and asks for them to stop over and over. Let’s assume for the sake of simplicity that the parents are both MMR narcissists, the oldest child is old enough to know better but doesn’t care (narcissism already formed most likely), the middle teenaged child was born to be a feisty super empath who frequently tries to assert boundaries and complains about the lack of respect (I’ll leave the reader to imagine what boundaries might be wanted) [And this uppity super empath…keeps arguing because they don’t know what they’re dealing with and they’ve not yet discoverws HG’s work], and the third child is three. In this case, who has the majority perspective? Who feels like the problem? Who could even, quite reasonably via a majority household perspective, be termed the problem? Who is more likely to feel like the problem and be scape-goated? Who is likely to be disbelieved if seeking outside help when three others disagree about what happens, due to it threatening their control to be told that their behavior is wrong? To my thinking, someone can be raised with a warped perspective of what the ‘majority’ is.
There can be many reasons why people lie or are in denial. — Agreed.
“If those people are close to us, then recognising the lie and considering the reasons for it is likely beneficial. If we understand then we are better placed to support. If not, maybe sometimes we don’t need to know.” — When that lie/denial results in triggered abusive behaviors from multiple people who’re close but cannot see the abuse for whatever the reason is…it might help.
How well does she understand her own child etc? You could also ask why the mother didn’t seek help, advice or a second opinion from a doctor or medical professional. — The mother may have a great deal of pride. That pride could result in not wanting to admit that her daughter needs more help than she can provide and thinking that she understands her child well.
“The child sits well within the range of empathy for a normal.” — How have you decided this? I don’t feel I’ve said enough about the child to know.
“Could an empath demonstrate empathy for one person but not another? Yes. The non empathy would be a defensive response. The boundary line crossed and the flick of the empathy switch from ‘on’ to off. I’ve done this on several occasions and there is no way back from that point. I would find it impossible to do with my own children though, no matter what. So in context of this example I would find that unlikely.” — I would value your thoughts on another example given your statement here. I’m just not ready to read a response to it.
In terms of wanting to believe in redemption for all. I’m afraid I don’t believe in that concept. Some actions are beyond my ability to forgive. — I don’t know that I’ve forgiven them so much as I’ve put up with them for years. And I agree, there are some people whose actions have crossed me to the point that I don’t forgive them.
“I’m not proud of it particularly, some might say I’m too quick to dismiss or cut away. They might be right, but, I think we can only do what feels right for us in each situation as it arises.” — I’m quick to dismiss new people, too. I think if you’re doing what’s right for you, and you’re not abusing anyone, then it’s fine.
I’m also finding it very interesting. There’s an enormous difference between the perspective of someone who has been abused and someone who hasn’t.
(Also, been meaning to tell you…I love your Eye of Horus image!)
Hi Dani,
I was moved to respond to your comments. I hope that’s ok. I’d like to share my experience in order to help you gain some clarity. Both of my parents are narcissists. I wasn’t sexually abused but I was physically abused by my father. He would use his fists to discipline. My mother was complicit. She saw it and often did nothing about it. Every once in awhile she would yell at him to stop. It was few and far between though. My mother was neglectful but never laid a hand on me. She had no empathy for me or my siblings. If she did, she wouldn’t have allowed these things to happen. Even as I child, I protected my brothers. My older brother is mentally disabled. I would often take the beating for him. Whoever my father could grab first is who got it. An empath will sacrifice themselves to protect the people they care about it. I did that even as a child.
Denial and gaslighting go hand in hand. I made excuses for my parents all the time. My father is from South America. I would say this is how he was taught to discipline. With my mother, I contributed to her mental illness. It wasn’t until I came to narcsite and found Mr. Tudor that I realized it was narcissism and I had been gaslit and conditioned my whole entire life.
I’m also married to a narcissist and I have two adult children. Neither of them were physically or sexually abused it. He was an absentee father and he would criticize and verbally abuse but he never laid a hand on them. I’ve had numerous conversations with my children about the subject. I’ve also apologized to them. I was in denial about him too. I just thought he was limited and didn’t know any better. I don’t want to say I was complicit, but on some level I probably was because one of my children is a narcissist, confirmed by Mr. Tudor.
As for pride, I’m high in pride too. The way works for me is if I see an injustice happening to someone I care about, I want to protect them. For me, its they don’t get to hurt something that’s mine. I know that’s a narcissistic but pride is a narcissistic trait.
When my husband would start with one of his verbal attacks, I would take the brunt of it. Just like I did when my father would go after my brother. My children did witness him deflect, deny and gaslight me. I guess that does make me complicit.
I can’t turn off my empathy for my children and if my children had come to me and told me they were being sexually abused, all hell would have broke loose.
The first 6 months or so that I was here on narcsite, all I did was read. The truthseeker in me needed to gain understanding first. I suggest reading, Fuel, Fury, Manipulated, Pipelines & Sitting Target. These books are a good starting point.
Hello NarcAngel–
Thank you for sharing. I appreciate it.
I’m unsure of the answer. It helps to read different perspectives.
Is there anything you can think of that would not make the mother complicit to your mind at this time?
-Dani
Hi Dani,
I’m coming to this conversation a little late, hope that’s okay. But I have the exact situation that’s been discussed in my life.
A woman with 3 little girls, 10, 5 and 3, came into my uncle’s life. The woman and my uncle marry. All three of the girls suffer sexual abuse by him, some known at the time, because they told others, sadly none that could help, and nothing was done. Some known many years later, when my uncle ended up in jail after being convicted, his wife being found to be not complicit by the legal system. The daughters hate their mother as much as their step father. Who was right in their judgement of her, the legal system that found her not complicit or the daughters that she didn’t help? Their house was tiny, the bedrooms right next to each other, how could she not have known? She is currently on her deathbed with days to live, she is a person that the world will be well to be rid of.
Dani
I considered several possibilities that could be offered before commenting, and am open to other input, but nothing to this point has changed my stance.
Factors considered that likely affect different perspectives and full disclosure:
If one is a mother (I am not).
If one is a love devotee (I am not).
If one is an empath (I am).
The type of empath one is.
If one has been subject to sexual abuse or inappropriate behaviour and been dismissed (I have).
Hi Dani,
In terms of the NDC, it is easy to complete in that the structure forces you to answer specific questions, it isn’t open structure where you describe your concerns. There is opportunity for you to describe behaviours that you regard as being problematic, but it is confined to just one open section. The format is helpful in terms of forcing factual information only, without opinion as to the reasons for it. What you end up with is a very clear picture of how the individual behaves, there in black and white so just completing it affords a lot of clarity.
During ensnarement I attempted to explain the behaviours of the narcissist. I thought at one point he was bipolar but he didn’t quite fit. In many ways I was logical in my approach but I also had too many what ifs. What if he misinterpreted what I said, so responded defensively? What if he is under stress at work? The usual reasons that an empath will come up with to explain the erratic behaviour. So my own reasoning felt logical, but in my heart of hearts I also knew that despite these reasons, the behaviour as a whole was unacceptable.
Scenario 2. The empath child holds the majority perspective in terms of society as a whole. No matter what the narcissist parents might tell her, how they make her feel, how they manipulate and cause her to question her own boundaries, the child is the healthy one, the other family members are disordered. Requesting privacy would be an example. The empath child is correct to expect privacy in her own space, the narcissist family members won’t respect privacy ever, because they are incapable of respecting boundaries. There is no way that privacy should be violated. Normal people respect boundaries ( to different degrees admittedly) this is a majority perspective and the empath shares it.
In this home environment, the empath will likely be made to feel as though she is the problem, her expectations as to privacy etc unreasonable. Depending on the school and cadre of empath, the external environment, interveners etc she might well believe that her perspective is the minority one, that she is at fault, ‘uppity’ etc. she might not. She might believe some criticisms, but disregard others. She might see the behaviours of family members as wrong, unreasonable, she might have zero respect for them so pays no attention to their views at all. Lots of variables but yes, a narcissist would invalidate any request that interferes with the acquisition of the Prime Aims. The school of narcissist would dictate how they would go about doing that but no narcissist has respect for boundaries. The empath child would be fighting a losing battle there.
Happy to answer your additional question whenever you are ready to ask it x. Bear in mind, mine is just one view, the way I look at things may well be different to other empaths, maybe not, but I’ll give my honest thoughts on it. 🙂
Yes, the mother might well have high pride and feel uncomfortable asking for help. Pride is my strongest narcissistic trait, I’m not very good at asking for help either! For me though, in this scenario, pride is not enough. When it comes to a scenario as serious as this, and it involves a child, pride would not be enough to deter me from seeking professional help. The child comes first. Pride would fall by the wayside, protection would take precedent. I accept that’s my personal opinion with pride sitting amongst a variety of other traits, but, for me, pride is not enough reason to do nothing.
“The child sits well within the range of empathy for a normal.” Sorry! Unclear wasn’t it? Empaths have a broad range of emotional empathy for a large number of people. Normals have a narrower range of emotional empathy, so, family members, close friends, neighbours, people they work with or see regularly for example. The emotional empathy for these people is strong though, arguably as strong as that of the empath. So in the example, if the mother was a normal not an empath, then the child falls comfortably within the range of emotional empathy for the mother. The mother if a normal would therefore have strong emotional empathy for her child, similar to that of the empath. This again leads me to reason that the mother is more likely to be a narcissist or possibly narcissistic.
Awww, thank you. I like the symbolism of the Eye of Horus. I’m such an empath sometimes! Haha!
Xx
Hi Dani,
“In terms of the NDC…What you end up with is a very clear picture of how the individual behaves, there in black and white so just completing it affords a lot of clarity.” — Did you find it triggering at all? To utilize a brief “Frozen 2” moment…don’t go to deep or you’ll drown.
“The usual reasons that an empath will come up with to explain the erratic behaviour. So my own reasoning felt logical, but in my heart of hearts I also knew that despite these reasons, the behaviour as a whole was unacceptable.” — I think that’s where I am with my situation at this point…
“Scenario 2. The empath child would be fighting a losing battle there.” — Indeed….
“Happy to answer your additional question whenever you are ready to ask it x. Bear in mind, mine is just one view, the way I look at things may well be different to other empaths, maybe not, but I’ll give my honest thoughts on it. 🙂” — You have a selection of the basic traits, etc. I’ve been looking for to give me an opinion about this matter. I would enjoy hearing what ANYONE else has to say. There are a variety people here with a range of experiences dealing with abuse. More than I’ve knowingly encountered in another setting. Goes with the territory. I’ve gotten a great deal from my conversations here.
“I accept that’s my personal opinion with pride sitting amongst a variety of other traits, but, for me, pride is not enough reason to do nothing.” — I’m sure that a variety of traits are at play for the mother in this scenario.
“The mother if a normal would therefore have strong emotional empathy for her child, similar to that of the empath. This again leads me to reason that the mother is more likely to be a narcissist or possibly narcissistic.” — Makes sense.
Hi Leigh,
“I was moved to respond to your comments. I hope that’s ok.” — I’m grateful that you responded. Everyone has their own perspective and experiences, and hearing the different ways people think about something as serious as what I said is so helpful for me. I greatly appreciate it.
I’m so sorry for everything that you’ve been through, and I hope that you’re healing now. I’ve not been in a position like the one you were in, with your father’s temper and fists. I rarely encountered physical violence in that form. I’m glad that your older brother had you there to help.
“I can’t turn off my empathy for my children and if my children had come to me and told me they were being sexually abused, all hell would have broke loose.” — I understand. I’ve worked in public schools, and I have the same protective instinct for every child that was within the walls where I worked. And if I saw them out in my community, I would still feel the same for them today, though I don’t see them daily anymore.
Thank you for the recommendations. I have read “Manipulated.” It was rather eye-opening and uncomfortable, but it has helped me to have words for the behaviors I see. I’m morbidly curious by what HG says at the end…that he could write “Manipulated II” with more examples…or he might keep those to himself…
I hope all is going well for you.
Hi Dani,
Thank you for your kind comments. But its ok, I’m good. You don’t need to feel sorry for me. Plus my pride can’t handle it. I don’t feel like a victim in the least. I was sharing to give you a little clarity as to how an empath would react, especially with there own children.
You say you have that protective instinct yourself for children that aren’t yours. Imagine now if it is one of your children. Mr. Tudor has taught us to “Go to the evidence.” If this woman had empathy for her daughter, she wouldn’t have allowed it to happen. Therefore, if you go to the evidence, since she allowed it to happen, she doesn’t have empathy for her child.
Let’s just say for the sake of argument, that the mother isn’t a narcissist. Does it matter? She’s clearly toxic and didn’t protect her daughter. For me, whether someone is a narcissist or not isn’t relevant. We have the right to say who we want to keep in our lives. When my father died, I hadn’t talked to him in years. I didn’t know anything about narcissism at that point. But I made a decision that I didn’t want him in my life. It was very similar with my mother too. I would limit my time with her. Since learning about narcissism, I’ve really limited my time with her. I haven’t seen her in 3 years. I only have short phone calls with her once a month or so. And she calls me, I don’t call her.
I don’t feel hate for my parents. I don’t forgive them either though. Its a state of neutral. Even talking about them now doesn’t anger me anymore. Believe it or not, I even have a little gratitude for them. They did give me life. But its ok to say, you don’t want them in your life and you don’t have to feel guilty about it either.
The empath and trait detectors are fantastic ways to understand yourself. I highly recommend them. Doing the narc detector will also give you clarity. The narc detector is incredibly easy to do but it can be triggering especially if its someone you care about. When I did my daughters. I knew it once I completed it. Mr. Tudor confirmed it for me and gave me her school and cadre.
The rest of the books I suggested may be uncomfortable to read as well but they are so important to your understanding.
I hope you get the answers you need. You deserve that.
Hi AV,
It’s never too late to join a conversation.
Those poor girls…I know where they were coming from…trying to get help and getting nothing…
“The daughters hate their mother as much as their step father.” — I can understand their feelings. I don’t know that I would say, at this time, that I hate those who abused me. When I’m angrier because of what I’m going to call a hoover (because I don’t have a better word for it)…that changes temporarily. But most times I just want them to be different or I want them to be absent from my life. But I can’t fault others for saying they hate those that abuse them or that did nothing while it happened.
Who was right in their judgement of her, the legal system that found her not complicit or the daughters that she didn’t help? — I don’t know. I’m glad that the daughters have at least a little justice, with him in jail.
“Their house was tiny, the bedrooms right next to each other, how could she not have known?” — I can only guess that it was a choice to not know, assuming she wasn’t a workoholic.
NA–
It’s completely fair for nothing to have yet changed your perspective.
“Factors considered that likely affect different perspectives and full disclosure:
If one is a mother (I am not).
If one is a love devotee (I am not).
If one is an empath (I am).
The type of empath one is.
If one has been subject to sexual abuse or inappropriate behaviour and been dismissed (I have).” — Definitely a factor that gives one a strong opinion. I’m not sure what is worse than trying to get help for an issue like this and being dismissed.
All very valid points…Some I check and some I don’t/don’t know via impartial outside evaluation.
Thank you for sharing.
Hello Dani,
No, I didn’t find any aspect of the NDC triggering. I felt it comforting more than anything else. I didn’t have to think about it anymore. I didn’t have to turn it around in my head whilst playing Devil’s Advocate for the narc. I just had to answer the questions and list out behaviours that concerned me. The logic of the process settled me. I also had confidence that HG would make the correct call. He would see through the fog and draw the correct conclusion. I was tired of debating it with myself. I was very similar with the NDC for my mum. I hadn’t debated it for as long, there was no emotional investment, but I wanted it done, confirmed, off the table.
I wasn’t triggered by the results either. Again the delivery suited me. I’m very much, “Give it to me straight, I don’t want a gentle tone, I want facts and I want to know how you arrived at the conclusion.” So the process suited me, factual and a relief to stop turning it over in my head.
I’m glad you are finding the blog helpful. When I arrived the Ultra channel wasn’t up and running. There were still some older videos available on the original Knowing the Narcissist channel but the blog was my main resource and source of support. You’re in the right place Dani, you’ll get your answers.
Xx
Hi Leigh–
Thank you for sharing. I appreciate it.
“The empath and trait detectors are fantastic ways to understand yourself. I highly recommend them.” — I’ve been thinking about them.
“The rest of the books I suggested may be uncomfortable to read as well but they are so important to your understanding.” — I’m planning to buy them.
“I hope you get the answers you need. You deserve that.” — Thank you.
Hi Dani,
I just wanted to tell you one other thing. Mr. Tudor gives us an amazing gift. He provides us with a key to understanding many human behaviors. Once you have that key, its amazing how clear everything becomes.
Good luck to you on your journey.
Truthseeker, Dani, how are you 🙂
These days I have learnt (the hard way) that some empathic people also routinely gaslight and stonewall.
They are called Dismissive-Avoidants. But they ONLY do this whenever a person tries a deeper connection with them, a romantic connection (big difference from narcissists). Afraid of their own feelings and afraid of letting the other person down. They don’t usually dismiss lighter friendships and can have many friends, fun activities and cool jobs/career.
It is SOLELY their spouse, and I guess their children too, who suffer.
Usually dismissive-avoidants had a dominating narcissistic parent and the DA got very shy and withdrawn about their own emotions, when growing up and as their brain evolved.
My guess is that the avoidant felt as though he needed to be the solid rock for his parents, smiling, seeming strong and kind, not affected by them neglecting their son. A survival strategy.
I was very taken by reading about this, and understood that this was my exboyfriend’s life and situation (we met again a few montessori ago after 22 years apart). Often some of us empaths are drawn to all kinds of difficult people in need, not just narcissists.
With a lot of therapy they sometimes get well, but until they learn to acknowledge their feelings, DAs will evade and stonewall/gaslight, in certain situations.
Hi AC
I have also read about dismissive avoidant behaviours and found it quite interesting. Of course, just as with other behaviours, there are many conflicting opinions. It appears one of those labels that can have much overlap (like the Borderline) and blurs the line into narcissism, making it a difficult (for most) determination.
Yes, NA, there is absolutely the blurring of line into the Middle Midrange narcissist and to the Borderline empath, at least in the Fearful-Avoidant personality. Suspicion, euphoria and drama.
With the Dismissive-Avoidant, though, these fellows have the constant need to instead keep topics light, and smile, (I am so drawn to this), they often have interesting geekdoms and I truly share some geekdoms so I usually end up talking with DAs, and they find me.
Problem is, they don’t want to go deeper than surface level, only doing cool activities, with friends, or the spouse.
They haven’t really learned to name their own feelings, life taught them to not ask for help, which makes many of them stay single. With help or therapy and a very patient spouse I heard some DAs do manage to find a partner/have kids.
To complicate matters, some narcissists are Dismissive-Avoidants. But many DAs are not narcs. Quite easy to notice the difference. The empathic ones treat you the same way when the two of you are alone, as when the two of you are surrounded by others. Also they don’t hoover after the relationship ended.
DAs constantly FOMO and triangulate and stonewall when someone tries to get near. With time though, they start trusting that person.
But HG is Spot On with the title “Why am I drawn to toxic behaviours?”
Omg, the initial paragraph made me doubt, I hate small talk. The rest of it cleared it all up, this is me. Ugh. Are narcs drawn to this? Mine seemed to love it. Does it make narcs my choice also, that symbiotic thing? Ugh. Thanks AC, this is good to know and gives direction for me.
Hi AC,
Lovely to see you, it feels like a while since we last spoke. I confess to not knowing a great deal about attachment styles. I sometimes get video suggestions about it on YouTube, I’ll take a listen next time.
How you describe your ex boyfriend is interesting. Having a narc parent I can see how that might fit with what you describe as a DA attachment style. Did he receive a formal diagnosis? Or is it a self diagnosis on his part?
Xx
TS, hello there! : – )
The Dismissive-Avoidant thing is just something I discovered. 22 years ago (then both in our 20s) I just got the impression, since he was the one who found me, that he was just being such an understanding gentleman about my physical shyness.We basically watched movies, holding hands, and that’s it.
But now 22 years later I put the pieces together. Through the years I became much more extroverted with my emotions, as well as physically. But he never did. I guess. There have been some dating on his part but as I understand it never lasting more than 6 or 7 months. He also seems to live in the same apartment as when he was 23, and works in the same little shop as back then, with I guess some of the very same ppl.
Typically a DA will find ways to seem interesting and strong. Instead of saying to a dating partner ‘I m a bit shy around intimacy, feelings’ they will refer to some cool network or organisation they need to attend to this weekend instead of the date. No vulnerabilities shown. Many DAs will never even mention having a cold or a fever.
It is always some cool event they need to attend.
So he just fits into these criteria, I don’t know of any diagnosis. This ex of mine might be an “ordinary guy” and I am mistaken.
Hope you and yours are having some good times, TS!
Hello AC,
Thank you for explaining further, I see what you mean now, given your explanation of a DA attachment style, your ex boyfriend does seem to fit doesn’t he?
I couldn’t help but think how sweet that sounded, sitting together watching movies and holding hands, no expectation, just sitting.
I have thought similar about people that used to live close by when I was younger. I was moving around, living in different places, then I would go back home to visit my parents and I’d go back to my old stomping ground, my old house, friends houses, the pub I worked in etc. I would see the same guy, on the same night sitting on the same bar stool in the same pub. It felt strange to me. I was somehow changed and yet going back, it was all still there, time ticking on, but things just the same seemingly as I had left them.
There is a certain comfort to it in a way, their lives no better or worse, just, different. Your ex might well find comfort in the familiar and the routine, I almost envy that mindset, but it isn’t me. Travel does change people and I think it makes you realise how small the world actually is.
It was really noticeable when I lived in SC and would travel home. It felt like I was stepping between two entirely different worlds in one sense, but they were still so close in another.
I hope your ex is happy with his life – gentlemen are hard to find – there’s a lot to be said for the familiar. It would be sad if a DA attachment style prevented his life from being different though. If wanted something different but couldn’t face a change. Strange when you think of people in your past ….
Xx
Hi AC, nice to see you! Wow, this is interesting information. I am going to do some studying on the types of “avoidants”. I’ll need to find some of FYC’s info regarding this and brush up.
I have recently come to the realization that a lot of my part in my ensnarements was that I was not honest about what was taking place. I believe some of this was due to being afraid of my own feelings and I know for a fact that I don’t let people too close. I am learning to do this, slowly and very carefully, but it is a process for sure. It involves realizing I have an emotion, allowing myself to feel it, or not, naming it if I can, understanding why I’m having it and who has influenced it. Then considering whether or not I trust them, deciding to share it or not, does it matter enough to share etc. It is really a big process but I’m so happy that it’s happening and taking the time to sort through all the steps is a good thing to do. It is helping me realize who is safe, in my mind, and who isn’t. If I don’t feel I can share with someone close to me, I need to decide whether I want to overcome that, or if I can, or if I’m better letting that relationship go away. It can get very messy, I don’t always like the process but I love the outcomes and that I’m able to do it. Thank you for your comment.
Hello and thank you, AV. Always nice talking to you
Well it seems Dismissive Avoidants don’t like making decisions in relationships. Male DAs feel strong shame for this and try to hide it in different ways. One example of many: We went to the Geek café I had suggested. About to walk in he said, ‘Well on this street there is also Bakery X and Restaurant Z, you know, those are nice!’
I smiled and said ‘We can go where you decide 🙂” because I was not familiar with that street.
He immediately went into the Geek café I had suggested, not even waiting for me. Without a word.
I wondered to myself why he had suggested anything at all to then just forget about it the next second.
This is a pattern of his behaviour. Not allowing himself to make choices and decisions, but also always shamefully try to hide this fact, by pretending to decide something.
When DAs were children they learned to outsorce decisions. Parents or life always in some stealth way punished the child for every decision they ever made. All this when the brain was evolving.
There has often been shaming of men who want someone else to take the lead, I gather.
If you feel you might have dismissive avoidance or like many of us, not knowing our own needs, then I guess you are doing great healing by naming your feelings, I heard it works wonders, but I’m afraid “I come from Barcelona” when it comes to psychological sciences in general.
Hi AC, I commented already about this on a reply you made to NA and then found this comment from you, apologies. But to go a bit further, the paragraph you wrote about us praying to outsource decisions, in my case we were not allowed to outsource even, all decisions were made for us. And yes, there was punishment for attempting to make a decision on our own.
Once a midwife asked me to write my meds that my then husband could meet during the baby’s delivery. I didn’t even know I could have a bed, that I could ask him to meet it, that I could expect him to do so, that a woman in labor could have a need at all. I didn’t come up with anything, it just left me puzzled, what was I missing? Why did other women clearly have needs and expectations and I had none? It confused me. I didn’t need anything from him, not really ever. Except that addiction thing. I think I have figured out why.
And to think of going deeper, being truly vulnerable with someone, it’s probably not going to happen.
Barcelona must be a great place of learning then! 🙂
Thank you again AC.
Learning* to outsource decisions, not praying to do so.
Hello AV,
I have questions…
When you say, “…a lot of my part in my ensnarements was that I was not honest about what was taking place,” do you mean you weren’t being honest with yourself (because you didn’t know what you were feeling)? Or that you weren’t being honest with the other person involved (unintentionally)? A combination of both?
When you look back at those relationships, can you puzzle out what you might have been feeling at different points?
“Then considering whether or not I trust them, deciding to share it or not, does it matter enough to share etc.” By “them” do you mean trusting your feelings or trusting the other person in your relationship?
“If I don’t feel I can share with someone close to me, I need to decide whether I want to overcome that, or if I can, or if I’m better letting that relationship go away.” — Have you noticed any trends in how you make that decision? When you decide you want to overcome this inability to share, is there anything specific that helps you say, ‘Yes, I can.” or “Hell no” or just letting the relationship slip away?
Hope all is going well for you.
Hi Dani, I like your approach “I have questions…” 😃 Very direct, I like that.
I was not honest with myself, him, anyone who questioned anything. I think it was a combination of not feeling my feelings clearly, not understanding them, and also FOMO. If I passed him up, I may not get another man as good as he, this was of course during the love-bombing stage. Then it morphed into not seeing the truth because it hurt too much, so I became an ostrich and stuffed any feelings that dared break out. Still dishonest.
I felt fear of losing him, terrifying fear, which I think is what caused me to be dishonest. I felt at times depressed also. And he delighted in making me angry when he could. I also remember feeling resigned at times and resolute or determined at times. These may have been where I lived for most of the relationship. No joy, very little happiness, no faith or hope that things would improve. I did dream about the time when we’d have an empty nest and really be able to bond, that got me through a lot of long days and nights. I believed we were in the most difficult part of our lives, raising kids, career etc and that things would be better once things could slow down.
The “them” refers to those who may have brought about or influenced an emotion in me. Most haven’t been trusted enough or mattered enough to me to share with them. Sometimes this is because I don’t think they would understand my excitement, or care. Sometimes it’s because they are whiners, not doers. Sometimes I don’t want to explain why it’s important for me to feel feelings and so on. Many are just innocent bystanders, haha, and I don’t want them that close.
My determining factor is pretty basic, if it is one of my kids, I will overcome it, if it’s my mom or another known narc, “Hell no”. If it’s anyone outside of these two categories, it is measured against the trust needed, ie how deep the relationship is at that point and do I care about deepening it further? If I do, I look at why, if I don’t, there is no sharing. If I look at why, I look at the possibilities with the sharing, can I handle it if they reject what I’ve shared, is it worth the risk. You see, my parents rejected all sharing of emotions, or worse and more typically, mocked and/or punished such sharing. So it is usually easier to let someone go.
If I decide to go for it, it is not a problem, I know what I will do in the case of a bad outcome. I walk away. If not physically at that moment, due to something preventing me leaving, like a tornado etc, they are done in my life, they just haven’t realized it yet.
Fwiw, I do treasure those people who I come across who actually want to truly know me and who I discover to be safe. Those are just few and far between.
Thank you for asking. I hope you’re doing well also!
Hello AV–
Thank you for answering. And glad you enjoyed the directness! 🙂
“I believed we were in the most difficult part of our lives, raising kids, career etc and that things would be better once things could slow down.” — What convinced you that you needed the change? That things wouldn’t get better unless you did something different? Was it a slow build-up or a lightning strike moment?
“Most haven’t been trusted enough or mattered enough to me to share with them. Sometimes this is because I don’t think they would understand my excitement, or care. Sometimes it’s because they are whiners, not doers. Sometimes I don’t want to explain why it’s important for me to feel feelings and so on. Many are just innocent bystanders, haha, and I don’t want them that close.” — It makes sense to me.
“if it’s my mom or another known narc, “Hell no”.” — Makes sense…following sound logic.
“You see, my parents rejected all sharing of emotions, or worse and more typically, mocked and/or punished such sharing. So it is usually easier to let someone go.” — That sounds familiar…uncomfortably so.
“Fwiw, I do treasure those people who I come across who actually want to truly know me and who I discover to be safe. Those are just few and far between.” — That sounds familiar, too…
Hi Dani, I wrote two comments in reply to this one, don’t know what happened to them, I’ll see if three is the charm. Hopefully they don’t all turn up at once!
My ex had a lot of secrets, as narcs do, but his became known in a way that I could no longer deny them. It was several lightening strikes in a short span of time, a friend who helped me see reality and my realization that my children could potentially be removed from our home if I did not act. My Super kicked in and within a relatively short time, he left.
I am sorry that you also experienced the rejection of your emotions by your parents, that is very hurtful at the least and can be very damaging.
@NA
I agree
The effect on the child would be the same regardless of the fact that the empath and narcissist have different motivations for being in denial. What difference does that make to the child?
Sometimes empaths also make shit parents.. namely the ones who are very codependent.
Not everyone should take on that responsibility just because biology is telling them to.
Hi Truthseeker,
“He has recently escaped an ensnarement.” “Then I’ll send out emotion/ feeling/ a mindset. Stability, strength, the idea of taking things all in our stride, confidence, affection, reassurance, whatever is missing for him in that moment. He always tells me that he feels better for being around me. It is like a little break I think, it evens him out somehow, steadies him. So yes, I send out and absorb emotion.” –He’s lucky to have you for a friend.
“Haha! I sound crazier by the minute here. Yes, if I’m refusing to show emotion I shield. I visualise the shield as a glass dome and I see it as I raise it! I even added some shimmer to it. Gawd. Haha!” –I don’t think you sound crazy. Yay for the shimmer!
“If the shield is up, no one gets any emotional content. I portray me, but there’s nothing behind it.” How does the shield affect your ability to take in emotion if it was put up to stop transmitting to others?
“Do you ever actively stop transmitting emotion Dani?” I’ve generally thought of some of my perceptions of my emotions of being akin to ‘magical thinking.’ I’ve not encountered so many people before who’ve shared openly such similar perceptions. I’m mostly trying to process and consider what sounds similar and what sounds somewhat foreign. My current thought for me is that I keep transmissions low or non-existent with those who’ve consistently proven problematic in a variety of ways. There are precious few where I’m in constant transmission, sending and receiving; distance is no problem. I’m not entirely certain of how it works or a good analogy.
Hi Dani,
You and me both! I don’t know how it works either. Simpler for me maybe because I have to have a person with me for my Contagion element to work. I will say it’s working all the time though unless I’m driven to the point of switching off to that person or, I shield.
I’m reaching with my Contagion element in every face to face interaction I have. It’s automatic, so to clarify exactly what I’m doing I think is quite difficult. I rely on my Contagion. My most recent ensnarement was online. To me, I was drawn in wholeheartedly there because essentially I was ‘flying blind.’ My Contagion doesn’t work through a screen. I suppose I get a sense of a person online, but it’s too vague, I would never rely upon it. Im far more likely to believe what I’m told online because Im not getting that Contagion information that would warn me the words don’t match the emotional stamp.
I was convinced my lead school was Contagion, just because of my rate of usage for that element. Having read the comments of other full Contagion empaths I recognise that they are stronger, their reach is broader, so Contagion is not my lead school after all. HG was correct in his analysis. Im exactly what he found me to be. That irks me a little haha! Meh, pffft!
Thank you for your comment about my friend. Interestingly, he also has a sizeable Contagion element, which probably explains a lot about the friendship.
In answer to your question about absorbing emotion if my shield is up. No. I neither transmit nor absorb. It is very much how I visualise it. I am within the dome, together with my own emotions. Everything and everyone is outside it. It’s defensive, a safe space / a holding position. Someone else might describe it as ‘going in to myself’.
The fact that you keep your transmissions low around people you find problematic I think demonstrates you place a value on your emotions, part of your defence might also be to pull them back or lessen them. Maybe you shield also, you just don’t visualise what you do in quite the same way?
Xx
“You and me both! I don’t know how it works either. Simpler for me maybe because I have to have a person with me for my Contagion element to work.” — When did you first realize that you were picking up on other’s emotions? Did it come as an epiphany or have you always been aware of it? (You said: “I’m reaching with my Contagion element in every face to face interaction I have. It’s automatic, so to clarify exactly what I’m doing I think is quite difficult.”)
“I will say it’s working all the time though unless I’m driven to the point of switching off to that person or, I shield.” — Do you shield often? I would guess your usage to be moderate from what I’ve read.
“I rely on my Contagion.” — How do you feel you rely your other schools/cadres by comparison?
“My most recent ensnarement was online.” — I’m sorry you were ensnared online, and I’m glad you’ve escaped now. I hope you’re healing from it all.
“I was convinced my lead school was Contagion, just because of my rate of usage for that element.” –Did you try to guess where you would fall when you took the empath detector? If so, how close were you?
“Having read the comments of other full Contagion empaths I recognise that they are stronger, their reach is broader, so Contagion is not my lead school after all.” — Assuming that I fall somewhere within the empath realm according to HG’s classification, which I hadn’t really considered before encountering his work, I don’t think I would either. It sounds similar to my experience but enormous and vast beyond what I have experienced. It sounds stressful, yet they handle it well.
“HG was correct in his analysis.” — He has a way of being so that is extraordinary.
“Thank you for your comment about my friend. Interestingly, he also has a sizeable Contagion element, which probably explains a lot about the friendship.” — Have you ever felt like you’ve been in a loop with him? You went to engage in a fun activity that ratcheted up for both of you as you picked up on each other?
“Maybe you shield also, you just don’t visualise what you do in quite the same way?” I don’t know that shield is quite the right analogy for me. I’m contemplating and exploring what it is that I think I do and trying to find the right words.
Hi Dani,
That’s a really good question, when did I realise I was picking up on the emotions of others? I don’t think I did properly. I wouldn’t really have known any different. Other people commented. Things like “ How do you do that?” A person might walk in smiling and I’d take a breath in and ask “What happened? I’d feel the upset or the confusion, whatever it was. My dad also picked up on it. I remember a discussion we had, where he asked if I ever felt a “draining” if I was in a specific location, or, if I ever felt like I left a piece of myself behind. I described it as a mild thirst or hunger.
I knew if I was being lied to. That was probably the first recognition. I was never wrong so I knew how a lie felt. I knew how someone else’s anger felt, I could feel it on my mum before it happened. So bits I suppose but no full realisation as such. My dad was very in tune with me and would ask me what I thought about people we might speak to just out and about. I would tell him and he would laugh and agree.
As I got a bit older, I knew I was an excellent judge of character. I knew I felt behind the words, I didn’t know what Contagion was so would have described myself as a people reader. It took me into adulthood to recognise that emotions I felt, didn’t always belong to me. I could be with someone who was upset and their sadness would hang around me for days afterwards but it wasn’t my sadness. I think my Contagion heightened after I had my first baby. It heightened further after the second. I can only describe it as ‘reaching’ that’s how it feels, like I’m reaching out for something.
I don’t shield too often no. I do it most if I’m upset, if I feel out of control / anxious. I do it if I feel threatened or if someone makes me angry. I do it also if I’m drained. I draw in and raise the shield as protection.
Thank you, online narc is toast haha!
I’m very aware of my Contagion when it’s in play. I was less aware of my other schools. Part of this was a misinterpretation of what the other schools meant. Mid Rangers love to think they are Super Empaths. That glorified kickassery just caused me to reject my school outright. Now that I understand the schools better, I recognise that the EDC was correct, the TDC was also correct. In terms of cadres, I fully agreed with the outcome of the EDC, no problems there. I probably use my Magnet more, but, if circumstances are right the Saviour will step in and override all my other cadres in a heartbeat. I absolutely can’t turn my Saviour off when it activates so it is my lead school, I’m just not always required to save!
In a loop? In a loop?! You would laugh if you saw us locked in the loop. Yes. We lock into each other and have conversations that run on two threads concurrently. The conversation everyone else hears and the conversation that is going on behind that conversation. My friend has no shield. He does reach though. I’m not sure we ramp each other up necessarily, but I would say that we can lift or steer each others mood.
Yes, I agree, the experiences of full Contagions are extremely intense and I think they are more sensitive to their environment as a whole. It’s a lot of stimulation, a lot of information coming in consistently, more than I experience.
I’ll be really interested to hear how you experience this side of your empathic nature, when you place it and of course should you choose to share your thoughts.
Xx
Dani,
Ran out of time and missed a question, back from my taxi duties now! I took the EDC quite early, I hadn’t been on the blog too long, two or three months maybe and I was focussed on the narc side, not the empath side. So I didn’t really have an expectation as to the outcome. I just hoped I wasn’t a narc!
When I got the results though, I hated the school because of how I associated it. I also didn’t believe I fit because I don’t see myself as an attacking personality. I’m very much geared to defence, plus, my ET was extremely high at that point and someone kickass wouldn’t have been caught in the way I was caught online. That was my thinking at the time. I was annoyed with myself, hurt, very sad, so to me I just didn’t fit. So I looked at where I should fit and to me at that time, I was more Contagion than anything else.
It’s only later as my ET fell, my traits resumed their usual order that I began to see why I fit in my allocated school rather than anywhere else.
I did the Trait Detector fairly quickly after the EDC. The TDC is very involved. I expected to disprove the EDC with my TDC result. Haha, “God loves a trier”as my grandma would say. I didn’t, the second detector supported the first. I was entirely honest on both because I wanted to know exactly what I was. I’ve looked back at the questions since. If I took it today I think I might have answered two or three questions differently with lower ET, but I can see why I answered those same questions the way I did, so I’d still come out the same even with low ET. I’d be more my school, not less. I find that more impressive than anything else. ET won’t really impact the results. The EDC and TDC are extremely well thought out. In my view they will get to the bottom of your empathic make up, irrespective of whether you get the strop on afterwards when you get the result!
HG has his hands full with we empaths I think. Haha! Oh well!
Xx
Hi TruthSeeker,
“I knew if I was being lied to. That was probably the first recognition. I was never wrong so I knew how a lie felt.” How would you describe this working against gaslighting? Or against someone whose truth is different than yours but they believe what they are saying?
“My dad was very in tune with me…” — I’m glad that you had someone to discuss these things with. It was clearly very beneficial for you.
“It took me into adulthood to recognise that emotions I felt, didn’t always belong to me. I could be with someone who was upset and their sadness would hang around me for days afterwards but it wasn’t my sadness.” — Does this only work with people you interact with in person? Are you ever affected by fictional TV programs or the News in the same way?
“I think my Contagion heightened after I had my first baby. It heightened further after the second. I can only describe it as ‘reaching’ that’s how it feels, like I’m reaching out for something.” — Do you think the heightening of your contagion was in any way from a desire to protect your children? Did it function differently with your children when they were newborns/toddlers?
“Thank you, online narc is toast haha!” — You’re welcome! And good to hear! Did you have a consult with HG about this (if that’s not too personal for me to ask/for you to answer)? If so, how helpful did you find it?
“I’m very aware of my Contagion when it’s in play. I was less aware of my other schools. Part of this was a misinterpretation of what the other schools meant. Mid Rangers love to think they are Super Empaths. That glorified kickassery just caused me to reject my school outright.” — I feel like mid-rangers probably like to think they’re all kinds of powerful from what HG says. I’ve only really heard HG talk about super empaths. The way he talks, they don’t sound like kickass narc-destroyers to me. But I’ve heard HG address the misinformation about super empaths, and that being a common misconception. From listening to him, they don’t sound like that to me.
“Now that I understand the schools better, I recognise that the EDC was correct, the TDC was also correct. In terms of cadres, I fully agreed with the outcome of the EDC, no problems there.” — Is there an article/video that helped you understand the schools and cadres particularly well?
“I probably use my Magnet more, but, if circumstances are right the Saviour will step in and override all my other cadres in a heartbeat. I absolutely can’t turn my Saviour off when it activates so it is my lead school, I’m just not always required to save!” If there is a story you wouldn’t mind sharing about a time when that happened, that would be helpful…I’m not sure I completely understand what you’re getting at.
“In a loop?…The conversation everyone else hears and the conversation that is going on behind that conversation. My friend has no shield. He does reach though. I’m not sure we ramp each other up necessarily, but I would say that we can lift or steer each others mood.” — Fascinating…I’m not sure what more to say about that at the moment. I need to process it.
“I’ll be really interested to hear how you experience this side of your empathic nature, when you place it and of course should you choose to share your thoughts.” — That’s very kind of you to say. I appreciate that. I’m considering what to share and how to share it while ensuring that I’m looking out for the person(s) closest to this element of my (potentially) empathic nature.
“I took the EDC quite early, I hadn’t been on the blog too long, two or three months maybe and I was focussed on the narc side, not the empath side. So I didn’t really have an expectation as to the outcome. I just hoped I wasn’t a narc!” — I’m there. Hoping I’m not that word.
“When I got the results though, I hated the school because of how I associated it. I also didn’t believe I fit because I don’t see myself as an attacking personality. I’m very much geared to defence, plus, my ET was extremely high at that point and someone kickass wouldn’t have been caught in the way I was caught online. That was my thinking at the time. I was annoyed with myself, hurt, very sad, so to me I just didn’t fit. So I looked at where I should fit and to me at that time, I was more Contagion than anything else.” — Interesting that you hated your results initially…from what I’ve heard here, the supers are viewed quite positively by those who’ve been responding to me. I can understand, though, after having dealt with an online ensnarement and all the hurt and frustration that comes with that…it would be interesting to read the other first impressions results of those who’ve taken the Empath Detector.
“It’s only later as my ET fell, my traits resumed their usual order that I began to see why I fit in my allocated school rather than anywhere else.” — So what I’m hearing is that HG was right…as he asserts he always is in these matters?
“I did the Trait Detector fairly quickly after the EDC. The TDC is very involved. I expected to disprove the EDC with my TDC result. Haha, “God loves a trier”as my grandma would say. I didn’t, the second detector supported the first. I was entirely honest on both because I wanted to know exactly what I was. I’ve looked back at the questions since. If I took it today I think I might have answered two or three questions differently with lower ET, but I can see why I answered those same questions the way I did, so I’d still come out the same even with low ET. I’d be more my school, not less. I find that more impressive than anything else.” — That’s very interesting. I wonder how many other people look back at the results (if they felt similarly to you).
“ET won’t really impact the results. The EDC and TDC are extremely well thought out.” Are they multiple choice or word count determined?
“In my view they will get to the bottom of your empathic make up, irrespective of whether you get the strop on afterwards when you get the result!” — “Strop on”…Are you British?
“HG has his hands full with we empaths I think. Haha! Oh well!” — An empath ought have more compassion for His Greatness, the Handsome Genius…(Just teasing Truthseeker and trying to guess what the HG stands for…) Serious note, I think HG likes having myriad empaths in his fuel matrix…I wouldn’t think (in his mind) he could have too many…
Hi Dani,
Gaslighting. Honestly, I don’t think I’ve experienced what I would consider to be gaslighting. I’ve had people lie to me but no one has tried to gaslight me to my knowledge. It’s possible that I ended the narc relationships before I got to that point. I’ve never been really ground down by a relationship,I’ve struggled more with sadness once the relationship is over. I imagine that gaslighting takes place deeper into an abusive relationship, when prolonged abuse has taken its toll and the cloudiness of ET is at its worst. In those circumstances I suspect the empath still feels the lie, she just doubts her own instinct and is too worn down to fight.
I disliked two of the narcs I was ensnared by to begin with. Over time though as no doubt my ET began to rise and the charm offensive continued I would have disregard my first impression. So I don’t think it’s that we don’t feel the lie. I think it’s more that we disregard the relevance of the lie. Let’s face it most people lie in some form or another, what’s often more important is the reason for the lie.
When it comes to distressing scenes on tv, I do get upset by them yes. Some films I can’t watch, particularly if they depict mistreatment of children or animals. I’m not absorbing emotion here though. I’m empathising with the predicament of the person on tv. So the sadness is mine not theirs. I definitely need a person in the room with me to absorb emotion. I really don’t like crowds and probably for this reason. Too much information all at the same time.
Yes, I think it’s quite likely that my Contagion element heightened as I had two little people to protect. My son spoke really late. I was told by a doctor that it was down to the fact that he didn’t need to speak, as I already knew what he wanted. Haha! True that. I’m still very in tune with both children. They are teenagers now, and I know if they’ve had a good day or bad day a few minutes after they walk through the door. I couldn’t tell you before they walk in though, so I have to have them in the room.
I think the general perception of the Super is that the individual has higher narcissistic traits therefore those traits show more often. Personally I don’t think it’s the narcissistic traits that are most important with the SE. It’s the empathic traits that are more important and the way they are used. That’s just my view though. Others might well disagree.
I didn’t consult with HG during the aftermath of my ensnarement with the online narc. I accessed the knowledge Vault and worked my way through the materials there. I wasn’t wary of HG, I’m just not great at admitting I need help. (I have a strong pride trait) I also didn’t want to book his time when other empaths might have been in greater need of it. I have since consulted with HG several times and looking back, feel it would have been beneficial to have consulted with him earlier.
Yes, once I got my EDC results I read the articles relevant to my various cadres. You can search the various empathic cadres using the search function. Only the Martyr cadre is missing. The Contagion school is in the pipeline currently I think. I had read one or two of the cadre articles previously just in general article rotation on the blog. I can’t remember if I had read the SE article at that point, possibly.
Yes HG has addressed the misconceptions surrounding the Super Empath. At the time of my EDC a few of his YouTube videos relating to this school had not yet been released, so the kickass imagery was still alive and …kicking.
Yes, HG knows his stuff. His understanding of empaths is both reassuring and concerning. I don’t like the feeling that I might be predictable. Got to keep it moving, duck, dive, change direction haha!
I would imagine that many empaths look back at their detectors and ponder if they have changed at all. Truthseekers will tend to go that route, at least I think they would, would they? Haha! I imagine also that many are surprised by their results. Not disappointed maybe, just surprised. It’s always better to know and fully understand your empathic make up in my view. That way you recognise your own drivers and can better see how narcs might play on them.
Yes, I’m English, from Lancashire originally. I’ve moved around a lot though.
HG has referenced various meanings for the H and G. Hurt God was one. Probably for the same reason he likes Depeche Mode. 😜 Was Huge Gonads another? I think so haha!
I do have an example of my Saviour kicking in and over riding my other cadres, it’s a bit lengthy, will describe in a separate message after biology revision with the boychild.
Xx
TS,
Re: Gaslighting
” I imagine that gaslighting takes place deeper into an abusive relationship, when prolonged abuse has taken its toll and the cloudiness of ET is at its worst. In those circumstances I suspect the empath still feels the lie, she just doubts her own instinct and is too worn down to fight.”
I agree with you on the empath getting worn down and being less able to fight off the effects of gaslighting, as the ensnarement progresses. However, in hindsight, I can see the themes in my ensnarement stretching back
Yes, the themes all roll together, it is interesting to see this and the connections in hindsight.
Sorry- pressed send inadvertently…
I can see the themes, stretching back to the beginning of my ensnarement, that my ex played upon, only they had a grain of plausibility at the time – so they did not read as gaslighting then…but they were only the first few drops of water of many yet to come.
Dani,
An example of my Saviour getting triggered and taking over.
I was sent on secondment for six months to France. There were two of us, myself and a colleague called James. James was a Cockney, very soft hearted, ridiculously funny, warm, personable, genuine. We got on very well.
We arrived at the office and we were being introduced to the staff that we would be liaising with during our six months. I love travelling, I enjoy meeting and getting to know new people. James was similar, brimming with energy and mischief, so we were enjoying the afternoon of meet and greet before we went out for our welcome dinner.
Here, I would say my Magnet was in operation. Friendly, sociable, getting to know people I’d be working with. We went into meet the management team to discuss the project. They were all lovely, all Brits. The last visit of the afternoon was with the Finance Manager. As James and I were going to be moving around location to location, James jokingly suggested that rather than the company pay for hotels and cars for us, that they should cap ex a boat. We could sail round the south coast and then sell the boat at the end of the six months. He was quite clearly joking, the cockney accent and swagger of delivery was very funny to be fair.
The finance guy was not amused. The temperature in the room dropped, the response was scathing. I felt James’ bubble burst at the side of me. He actually blushed and looked down. It was just a joke, there was no need for the condescension and put down, finance guy could just have laughed the joke off.
This manager was only young. Had the ‘ big I am’ attitude that was uncharacteristic of the organisation. Bit flirty, bit of a charmer, full of himself. He was ex pat as we were. The company culture was very much that we all worked together but socialised and drank together when out in the markets, so again, this was a flex, uncalled for.
We all got our stuff sorted to leave, James was unusually quiet as we were leaving the office. Saviour triggered, I hung back, James went out of the door to the street below. The finance guy was directly behind me, so I turned and said that James was only kidding, trying to break the ice, I thought his response was uncalled for. He stopped and looked at me but he didn’t say anything in response. I don’t know what possessed me, probably the fact he was young, not a huge amount older than me. So I said to him “Yeah, bit of an arsehole really aren’t you?” I said it smilingly, almost with familiarity to wrong foot him, descended the stairs and let the door to the street slam behind me. I was fizzing.
Magnet gone. Saviour activated. I couldn’t stop myself. It angered me and poor James was just being James.
As it happens the Finance guy and I spent a lot of time together in the months that followed. He liked me, a lot, he agreed he was an arsehole and earmarked me because I “had balls”.
When my Saviour kicks in, it kicks in and I’m already wading in before I can catch myself. I don’t lose my temper, I draw in and go calm, I use my words Haha!
Xx
Hello Who Cares x
Yes, me too I think there were little chips taking place from the get go too. If gaslighting is the alteration of an individual’s reality then it takes time to put in place. The narc can’t change just one thing or two, there have to be alterations throughout the entirety of the shared fantasy / illusion.
I think essentially that’s what we’re talking about. The narc draws the empath in to a shared fantasy they both occupy together. At the beginning this illusion or fantasy is constructed to appear beautiful, is representative of all the empath ever wanted, shared hopes and dreams. Then as devaluation begins and the narc no longer sees the need to portray himself as his idealised version, then this shared fantasy starts gradually to change. Bit by bit by bit. What once felt like safety, a haven, starts to become more like a prison. The empath questions the change, is prone to blame negative behaviours on herself so is very open to her sense of reality being questioned and then moulded gradually into something more sinister.
I suppose gaslighting really equates to compound manipulation. It takes time to change a perception of reality, it would have to be gradual.
The king pin in this has to be isolation. If an empath has points of reference outside of the shared fantasy to draw on, she is going to be far more difficult to manipulate. But if isolation is done effectively, points of reference are removed, then all the empath sees is that one illusion, the narcissist is then the only point of reference.
I think this is why I would say I was manipulated but not gaslighted (gaslit?) The first two romantic narcs didn’t manage to isolate me. One of them ( Love of My Life Guy) had a pretty good stab at it. He had his own business, didn’t want me to work, told me if I was with him I wouldn’t need to. Cue house brochures, car brochures and exotic holiday locations. Problem was, I loved my job. No way I was going to give it up on a promise. Plus, my job involved travel, I worked away, so I still had all of those reference points in place linking me to the outside world. One foot in the illusion, one foot out. I don’t believe you can gaslight someone like that.
Ironically, online narc did more damage. At that point I was far more isolated. The illusion was created for me online and I had fewer reference points outside of it thanks in part to his monopolisation of my time and non existent social circle. You can always escape online, in some ways the illusion is even more glittering. The holiday romance idea, no day to day monotony to dull the shine. Again though, despite that draw into fantasy land, it’s still very difficult to gaslight when real life keeps pulling at the edges.
Isolation is critical. This is something empaths can recognise and safeguard against. No romantic relationship should take your job, consume your social circle or pay you off. Safeguard against those things and gaslighting has to be far more difficult to achieve, irrespective of school or cadre of empath.
Xx
Hi TS, I’m going to jump in here. Gaslighting is insidious and its an integral part of the conditioning process. Its can be very subtle and you don’t even realize its happening sometimes. Every single one of the narcs in my life, including my daughter has gaslit me.
You don’t need to be isolated to live within their delusion. I wasn’t isolated. I was top lieutenant for several of the narcs in my life. I was Prince Harry and Will Smith. Neither one of them are isolated and they are both being gaslit.
Its so much more than a lie. I’m going to use my ex best friend as an example. I call her the Deserter now because she’s deserted her children. For the first couple of years, I believed that it was her narc husband that took the kids away from her and made it impossible for her to see them. As I’m sitting here thinking about it, I’m actually ashamed that I believed the things that she said. When her husband first left with the kids, she claimed she was so distraught. I found her on her couch drunk and crying. I believed her. I was wrong. She was using me to indirectly assert control over him. I said, call the police. She said she did and that they couldn’t do anything because they were with their father. I believed her. When he reality, she could’ve filed a missing person report. There’s so much more, but the point I’m trying to make is that we so desperately want to believe them that we believe what they’re saying.
It wasn’t until I found Mr. Tudor and narcsite that I realized how much I was being gaslit and conditioned. Mr. Tudor has helped me shatter the rose colored glasses. Gaslighting really is insidious.
Hey Leigh,
I think the difference here might be what I classify as gaslighting and what I see as manipulation even if it’s a repeated manipulation. Perhaps my definition of gaslighting is too narrow comparatively.
To me, gaslighting is making the victim feel as though they are losing their mind, they mentally unwell, crazy. The victim questions their recollection of events and behaviours in light of the fact that the narcissist convinces them they are mentally ill.
There were a few articles on the blog which contained manipulations that would feed into gaslighting a victim.
Hiding the victim’s car keys ( your memory is failing you)
Filling the bin with empty wine bottles (you drink more than you think, you have a drink problem)
Scaring the victim by making banging sounds around the house then saying the victim is hearing things. (hearing things, hallucinating, you’re mentally unstable)
Creating hypervigilance in the victim, shredding their nerves.
This is what I mean by gaslighting, making the victim truly believe that she is crazy, she flies into a temper all the time, she is the problem and thanks to her failing mental health she is losing her grip on reality.
To gaslight in this sense would take time and repeated manipulations to convince the empath she actually is mentally unwell. It would take isolation from friends and family. Possible use of coterie members to support the assertions of the narcissist and so on.
I could say instead that my mum gave me the impression I was a bad daughter for not doing mother daughter things together. I did question that from time to time, was I a bad daughter? Some people might say that was gaslighting. They might be right. To me it was a pity play wheeled out subtly from time to time. A manipulation that I wouldn’t class as gaslighting. Possibly because I didn’t really believe it. I saw my behaviour as justified, I wasn’t questioning my mental health or my perception of reality.
Perhaps I’m too narrow with my understanding of the term gaslighting, or too old school haha!
Xx
For me the gaslighting began at birth and at a very young age I no longer even needed manipulations to be confused and not know up from down. I think that is when I gave up trying to figure it out and see things clearly and just accepted that I didn’t have the ability to understand certain things. Cognitive dissonance was the result overall and I have only learned since being here that CD is a thing, let alone a problem for me. Unpeeling the onion has revealed more of the messages I was fed and the way things were skewed right from the start. One example, “You need me, without me you are nothing.” Being a child and being told this, even if only in actions, I accepted it. So many other messages, that one picked out of a hat, but all the same result, I did not see things based in reality but only through the narcissists lens because it was the only lens allowed. So I have accepted that I am actually “sick”, mentally, but that I am able to become healthier, hopefully to even become healthy. That is my experience only, not everyone’s I am certain. But thought it might be helpful to share it.
Oh, and I meant to also add, avoiding people because I was not like them, ie “normal” and thus creating my own isolation. Considering and attempting suicide many times. Doing risky behaviors because I don’t even consider that I am worth taking care of myself. And more insanity also. I think all are signs of “crazy” but I didn’t know why, couldn’t figure that out, until I arrived here. I don’t know if this is due to gaslighting in the typical sense but I suspect, in my case anyway, that it is.
Hi TS,
I didn’t feel like I was losing my mind either. Things just didn’t add up. I questioned all the time. I thought maybe I was missing a piece of the puzzle. LOL! I was actually right about missing a piece of the puzzle. Sometimes the gaslighting is done to make us think we’re crazy but sometimes its done to condition us to do what they want.
What you describe is a small piece of the bigger picture. The salami slicing, the plausible deniability, the twisting of words, all contribute to the gaslighting. I think every single manipulation that is used against us, contributes to the gaslighting. Its used to condition us and create cognitive dissonance in a very insidious way.
I remember Mr. Tudor posting a video of Will Smith where WS talks about how he didn’t do anything wrong as kid but he always felt like he was bad because of the punishment and discipline he endured. If he was a good kid, he wouldn’t have been punished so he must be a bad kid.
Over the summer, I had an experience where I felt I was weak. I said to my empath friend that I didn’t want to talk about leaving my narc husband anymore because it reminded that I’m too weak to leave. I must be because if I was strong enough, why do I stay?
As a child and sometimes as an adult, my mother would tell me that I was a miserable child and I was just like my father. Is that why I feel I’m inherently bad? It must be true because my father is an abhorrent man and if I’m just like him, it stands to reason, I’m inherently bad too.
Yes, those two scenarios are my ET but it stems from being gaslit for years. All those messages for years have altered my perception of myself and that’s why the gaslighting is so insidious.
Leigh,
I see what you mean. I hadn’t thought about gaslighting in context of the parental narcissist, only in context of the romantic relationship. I agree also that gaslighting is the result of compound manipulations.
I can see how children would be gaslit from birth to think in a certain way or view themselves in a certain way, therefore making them easier to control for the narc.
If you are conditioned into believing that you are a bad person, “ just like your father”, then it stands to reason that your view might be “ I deserve what I get”.
I read that every person has a series of introjects. Essentially, introjects are the internal representation of various characters that we encounter during our lives. We also have various self states. Different self states will call on different introjects to make sense of what is happening in the present. So, the introject that is your mother tells you that you are a bad person. Certain self states will call on the introject of your mother, others will call on a different introject. So in terms of your romantic relationship the guiding introject might be your mother, but in work, the guiding introject might be an old teacher or an old boss. (You likely are a different Leigh in work than you are at home.)
Theoretically, the introjects of our narcissists guide our behaviour which is likely part of ET. The trick would be to silence the narc introjects whilst calling on non narc introjects instead. I wonder if you picked a non narc from your past or present and when that negative narc introject starts to talk, you consciously call on the non narc introject and ask yourself what would this person advise me to do in this situation? What would they think? So for me, the negative introject would be my mum, the positive would be my dad. For you it might be your mum as negative, your daughter as positive. Over time you want to silence your mum and amplify the non narcs.
In many ways the method of how to do that I think is the full No Contact regime. HG asks us to close all 5 arenas of interaction. Essentially, silencing the narc introject until we replace that thinking with Logical Thinking or, a more realistic / positive introject.
HG is no fool, there are very real reasons why ACONS should aim for Total No Contact with parental narcs. It doesn’t just prevent future damage, it starts to repair past damage / helps to silence the parental narc introject.
Next time you view yourself as ‘bad’ or ‘undeserving of anything better’, maybe try challenging the thought and testing it for accuracy. Balance it logically against all the good things you do instead. List these good things out loud so you can hear them. Consider your motivation for these good behaviours and say those out loud too. If nothing else it might give you a more balanced view. No one is all good, but are you really bad? If you aren’t then you don’t deserve to put up with narc bullshit!
I still find it mind boggling what a narc parent will do to their child, Insidious would be correct. Unforgivable would also be realistic.
Xx
Hi AV & TS,
Yes, I believe the gaslighting started a birth and I think it primed me to be ensnared by other narcissists. Both my mother and my husband are victim narcissists. Coincidence. I think not, lol!
My mother was helpless and after my father left, it got worse. I had to take care of her and I was trained to do so. When my mother told me I was a miserable child and just like my father, it got the response she wanted. I then would feel guilty and take care of the issue for her. My husband has done similar.
I like your thought AV about looking through the lens of the narc.
I saw myself the way they saw me. I was only there to take care of them. My purpose was to be their caregivers.
TS, what’s interesting about my mother’s messages is that there are a lot of positive messages too. She would tell me I was beautiful and smart. She would also triangulate me with my brothers and say, “I don’t have to tell your sister twice or if I asked your sister, she would do it?” Now, for my brothers that was a negative but as a child, it put me above them. My father would often put me above them as well. I’m not saying that’s healthy or good but that’s what happened.
I agree that we need to turn off these messages. Although I don’t want to turn off the message that I’m beautiful, lol. I am getting better with turning off the other messages. That incident in the summer when I felt weak, my empathic friend pulled me out of that. After the fog lifted it was a wake up call. When I have those weak moments now, I recognize its ET and the conditioning and I shut it down.
Its very much like AV’s analogy of the peeling of an onion. That’s how it feels for me. As I start to peel away the layers, I realize how deep the conditioning goes. But then when I see the conditioning, I can work to change it.
I’m not quite at no contact yet with my mother. I haven’t seen her in 3 years though and we speak once a month if that much and its usually a 5 minute conversation. I know when she’s trying to get a rise out of me now so I will just let her say what she wants and keep it moving.
One other thing I can remember about my mother is that I would often go to be unfed. She would always tell me that she would try to feed me but since my belly bothered me, I wouldn’t eat. Then she said she didn’t want to force me, so she stopped pushing. Since I was looking through her narcissistic lens, I believed her. I believed it was my fault that I didn’t eat. Plausible deniability.
I don’t know if these things are gaslighting. It kind of feels like it though because my perception is a bit skewed as a direct result of the narcissist’s manipulations.
One last thing, I have no desire to forgive my parents. None whatsoever.
Hi Leigh, thank you for the feedback, I always appreciate it. I read your first paragraph and realized the opposite was true for me, I would run from a victim narc, they are like beacons of who I should never be with! They remind me so much of my mom and she is so horrible in comparison to my dad! But I’ve also not gone for and Elite, their head crap was what I hated about my dad, he was so pompous and always so much better than everyone else, it disgusted me. I still have no regard for higher education, it does not impress me at all and I typically believe most who have it think they are better than those who don’t. Though I did encourage my children if that was the direction they wanted to go. Sadly, even with them, I see differences in treatment of people if they have been more highly educated than if they have not. All that to say, the Somatics love me and I guess I love them back. Ugh.
I also accepted many of the messages, I wrote to NA a bit ago about how they processed in my brain sometimes. But even more on that, if BOTH of my parents had the same message, or in my case lack of message, I believe that is when I was more likely to absorb and accept it. For example, neither of them spoke to my appearance, my dad, on the extremely rare occasion it might have come up, was complimentary, and likewise my mom was negative, so this offset each other and the overwhelming message I got was that of nothingness, which left me insecure about my looks and not sure if I was attractive or not. Some things told me that I was acceptable to look at, as a young adult, but largely still I don’t know. I have long since decided not to worry about it, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I have not wanted for attracting men, but it was a real obstacle for me for a period of time when I was younger. That is one example, there are others also, some much more damaging than this one.
My mother, in ANC with me, still attempts to gaslight, manipulate, overall acquire the prime aims every time I see her, even if only for a minute. Yesterday, she made a comment about my sister’s son’s haircut, how nice it is, as my son sat next to her at the table with his two plus years of growth hanging down onto his chest and back. And he has hair women have told him they wished they had, it is beautiful. Later he mentioned this to me, I said, yes, that is what I grew up with everyday as a child, it sucked. I was able to stave off some of those messages but many still went in to a basket labeled, “YOU’RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH”, and sometimes that basket still affects me. I believe it will be an ongoing battle for my life to not take those on when I am in a low spot, tired, hungry, hurting etc. So be it. I am thankful to know that I have the choice to not accept them, because I am aware of them. It gives me a huge step up from when I didn’t know.
Thank you for your comment, really got me thinking.
Hi Leigh,
Haha! I think keep the beautiful and smart bit and dump the negative bits.
That’s lovely to hear that your friend was able to support you in seeing yourself differently. It’s comforting to know that there is someone to listen and provide an honest opinion, it does make a difference. I think you’re right, you have to be able to spot the various manipulative behaviours first before being able to address and unpick the long term impact they might have had.
There are definite themes that ACONS share in terms of their experiences and how they view them. I’ve always found ACON accounts shocking, I still do. I used to avoid ACON discussions for that reason, I could understand the emotions felt, but I couldn’t really relate to them fully as a non ACON so I didn’t see it as my place to comment. Now I find that I am an ACON and I still find it difficult to relate to a lot of experiences described. I didn’t really experience things in the same way. So I’m still shocked, still angered by the behaviours of parental narcs, but still can’t fully relate to them as something I experienced personally. You made a comment the other day about your mother. I think you said, “I don’t respect her / I don’t respect her opinion.” I think I’ve felt like that since being a kid. I didn’t respect my mum’s opinion, so I didn’t pay much attention to what she said, good or bad. I also didn’t confide more than the bare minimum, so she had limited material to work with. Maybe that has something to do with my feeling less impacted / less able to relate to other ACON experiences.
I view my mum as irritating more than anything else. I’m not in No Contact either, I’m probably not even in Almost No Contact with her. So it’s not a case of saying ‘you should all be in no contact’ rather that I understand the thinking behind it in terms of lessening the impact of those nagging voices that some experience. Empaths all have their reasons for going full or part no contact with parental narcs, it’s a balance I think.
In terms of forgiveness I don’t forgive or not forgive the narcs in my life. I just seem to take the ‘it is what it is’ approach to it. If I can’t change it, I tend not to think about it too much. I’m at ease with it all I suppose. I do however read accounts on here and think forgiveness for me in that situation would definitely be a bridge too far.
Xx
Hi TS, this is very interesting to me. I wonder since you saw empathy in action with your father, did that make a difference? I had no barometer for empathy so the behavior from narcissists was all I knew so it was normal.
If I could use yout reluctance to confide in people as an example, I think your mom’s reaction when you confided in her was negative. You knew something wasn’t right because when you confided in your Dad, it was a different reactions. You can see the difference in behaviors. So you put your wall up with your mom and others and don’t confide.
When I was young, all I wanted to do was please them both. I may have tried to confide more in attempt to get a positive response. You knew something wasn’t right and stopped confiding.
After my father left, I blamed her. I still took care of her but I did it begrudgingly. There was less of a need to please her but she still got what she needed from me.
My daughter is very similar to you. She can see the difference in behaviors as well. She could see her father and sister were narcissists and deluded before I could. She can see empathy in action within me. This actually gives me a little hope for her.
Yes, it is lovely to have someone there who can help stop that negative self talk when it happens. I’m very grateful for to have that.
I really like your view on forgiveness. It’s a good way to look at it. AV had used the word neutral on another thread where we are discussing forgiveness. I like that word too. I think I’m at neutral with my parents. Not quite there yet with my narc husband. I’m getting there though.
I am an ACON, and while I can relate to many of the experiences of abuse that other ACONS write about, I find I don’t share in a lot of the same responses to those abuses. Many comments seem for instance to assume that we all understand that feelings of weakness or worthlessness of self are tied to those things we were told about ourselves by our abusers. That we accepted them unknowingly because we knew no other reality, continued to believe them, and have had to consistently battle those negative thoughts. I have not found that to be true in my case, so it stands to reason that there must be others who read these things and think…hold on…but don’t protest as to not be seen as invalidating that experience for others. It is not an invalidation or judgement in any way to others to say that not only did I not accept the negative things I was told about myself, but I would internally snort with derision about how they were really speaking about themselves. Any shame I had was related to anyone finding out how I lived in a house of mental illness (not mine). That there are other things in play than the abuse and that can be seen in my other siblings. Thus, I believe it relates more to individual personality and to the type of empath and composition of traits, than to empaths in general. I was a target but not a victim. That is my decision to make and not theirs.
Hi NA, thank you for this comment, I enjoyed reading it a lot. It is another aspect that is very important to consider. I also agree that not all of the messages they sent hit home as they expected or desired. For example, my mother would tell me quite often, “Just think, someday you’ll be just like me!” at which my child brain would rebel against, I remember this clearly, and in my head I would build the wall against such a thing another brick or two higher. You see, I had the opposite example from her also inputting into me in my dad, I worked consciously to be more like him in every way that I could, and I was already more like him anyway in my natural makeup. And I have often been told that I am nothing like my mother, I love the people that say this to me. All of that to say that it was one of many negative messages not only not internalized but which built me in a different direction.
I think the impact of narcs on individuals will vary with the equal or stronger impact of non-narcs, I did not have any of those in my young life in any really substantial way. I think it also varies on when the various narcs enter our lives, if it is as some here, at birth, or others later once they’ve already been somewhat “established” in their makeup. And also, I have the very strong super which I believe my mother did not account for and which I believe gave me a lot of protection against her and my dad’s input that was negative. There are definitely areas where I did absorb their messages, of course, and in my particular case messages were often more a result of what was not said than that which was said. But these kinds of variations do affect all of us differently and we each are responsible, or not, for figuring out where we personally fall within this. All of these differences coming together here, on narcsite, are really good for others to have input for their own evaluation. And I am in complete agreement that we choose how we will respond once we are aware of the message, the potential for messages even, we can be, as you say, the target but not a victim, that is very good. I will remember that one. Thank you.
Hi Leigh,
Yes. I was extremely fortunate in that I had my dad as a contrast. My mum is Mid Range, so in terms of empathy I had cognitive empathy modelled by my mum. Emotional and cognitive empathy by my dad.
I’m going a long way back here, I estimate I was probably about 5. I had been sent to my room, my mum said that it was messy, I needed to tidy it and I wasn’t to come out until it was done. So I stayed in my room and didn’t come out, but I didn’t tidy it either.
Later, my dad came home. I heard him ask where I was and then the muffled tones of my mum downstairs. Shortly after, my dad came in. It was late, for me at least. I was sitting up in bed. As he entered the room he said “ Now, your mum says she’s sent you in here because your room is a mess.’ He closed the door, turned to me and grinned. He sat on the edge of the bad and we chatted, what I’d done during my day, what he’d done during his and then he looked round and said, “It is a bit messy in here you know. You need a rethink, let’s move some stuff around, where do you think this should go?” So we set to and moved everything around, and when we had finished I loved it. I have never had an untidy bedroom since that day. I just like a tidy space.
There was contrast. The orders of my mum were offset by the let’s do it together attitude of my dad. He just knew how to be with kids.
In terms of emotional empathy, my dad really took the time with me to talk to me properly, to understand me and he was very open in sharing deeper thoughts about the world and people in it.
In terms of cognitive versus emotional empathy. My first dog was a good example. Mum fed and walked the dog (with me). Dad spoke to the dog, looked into the dogs eyes and might say, “ not feeling great today are you lass” or whatever, but he linked with the dog, really spoke to her, there was a real love there. I’ve spoken to all of my dogs in a very similar way.
My grandma offered another contrast. Dad worked away quite a lot. Monday through Friday usually but occasionally for a few months at a time. My grandma picked me up from school three days a week. During holidays I was there full days three days a week. Another strong influence. My grandma didn’t take any rubbish from my mum at all. Never rude or argumentative but my mum knew not to lock horns with her. My grandma was a tougher version of my dad, again very in tune with nature and always meaningful conversation. Someone who connected with people.
I did see contrast. I knew what felt right and what just felt plain wrong and I made my decisions very much in line with that, whose opinions mattered and whose didn’t. My dad would still tell you I’m stubborn though, there’s just an acceptance that goes along with it!
Yes, confiding in my mum always ended up as a negative result, so I stopped. When you stop confiding completely, really what you are left with is small talk. It negates a true meaningful relationship and that has very much been the end result with my mum and me.
Xx
TS, you have brought clarity for me concerning all of this, it is all a matter of contrasts but on a sliding scale. Even if we had two narc parents, they were not necessarily equally as bad. Having one normal or empath parent would change it up again. Thank you, this is a big piece for me!
Oh, and what was really exciting for me, even grandparents play into this! I know it is needed in at least five of my grandchildren’s lives, that is so big for me, you will never know! Thank you again!
Hi All, I’m going to answer in one response so I don’t tie up Mr. Tudor’s inbox, lol.
NA, The weakness I feel isn’t coming from a place of being a victim. I’m not a victim either. The weakness comes from feeling like a passenger in my own life. I feel like someone else is driving the car. Why can’t I move? There’s a piece of me that thinks the same as you. I feel contempt for them. Yet I still can’t move. I do have feelings of being inherently bad and that’s a direct result of my feeling contempt for them and that causes me to believe, I must be a bad person. I have two different thoughts that are diametrically opposed. Its quite frustrating.
TS, I love that story about your Dad. It was filled with empathy for you. I think your parenting style sounds very much like his. I agree when you can’t confide in people, all that’s left is small talk and subsequently you can’t build a true meaningful relationship. All of the relationships that I’ve had or still have with narcs are the same. They’re very shallow at best. The relationships that I have with empaths in my life are much deeper.
AV, ugh, my narc husband is a combination of my mother and my father. My narc husband is grandiose and a substance abuser like my father and a victim like my mother. The grandiose victim is quite a combination. LOL! I’m still gaslit by my mother and my husband. Sometimes they work in tandem. Just the other day my mother called me to tell me that the nursing home hasn’t had food in 10 days. I told my husband the story and he says, she’s just getting old and maybe getting little senile. I just say, I guess and then walk away. I seriously can’t make this stuff up. I want to consider your lack of messages a little bit. I don’t remember much of my childhood but I would think actions definitely spoke louder than words.
Leigh, a “grandiose victim” made me laugh! That is such an oxymoron but also so accurate for some of them! My mom is grandiose but you don’t see it, you see the victim much more.
My ex was a combination of my parents also, and fell between them on HG’s scale. Interesting observation, thanks for bringing my attention to it.
AV, LOL! He’s quite an oxymoron for sure!
NA,
I am sometimes wary of coming across as if I’m invalidating others by offering my view on things. Like somehow I’m ‘missing a sensitivity chip’ as Jennifer Anniston famously said about the beleaguered Brad. Not here, on this thread, but elsewhere at times I have decided against offering my point of view.
Trait mix, interveners, life experience in general likely all play a part in the way we responded to the abuse doled out by our respective narcs. I found your view on it helpful, thank you.
Xx
Hi TS, I write my experience, if I feel it could help in a conversation, and don’t worry about it beyond that. Because we don’t know what another person will take from it and I figured if someone doesn’t take much, or anything, they’ll just go on by, no problem. We all do it in our own way I guess but your experiences, and those of others, do help broaden my view quite often.
I was just thinking the same thing this morning about how sharing each other’s experiences actually broadens my view.
No two people will experience the same situation, the same way. Nor will they interpret it the same or have the same outcome. Even in the same household, people will experience things differently.
The beauty of hearing about other people’s experiences is that it opens my mind, deepens my understanding and broadens my view on people and life in general.
Exactly, when I hear different thoughts about a similar situation, it makes me realize that we are unique individuals, we can and often do have similarities in some ways but as you said, even in a home, in our home, things were processed very differently. My children processed things differently and each understands the difference from themselves to their siblings, and respects that.
Hi TS,
I really enjoy our conversations. Oftentimes you will offer me a different perspective. I see our conversations as a give and take and that we both learn from them. I hope its the same for you With this last exchange, you made me aware of how my daughter may have experienced the narcissistic dynamic in our household. That actually gave me hope for her.
I don’t think you come across as invalidating at all. I hope I don’t come across that way either. I share in the hopes that others will share as well and we can all learn.
@NA
I agree, it’s how your personality develops (which isn’t a choice but a combination of your genes and experiences.)
I also wonder if it’s more natural or easier to disconnect from a parent you’re not related to?
As much as some people minimise the significance… biology is very relevant in caregiving in my opinion.
It’s why even though I’m in a same sex relationship I wouldn’t make a child via sperm donation unless the father was going to part of the child’s life. Most people want to know who their bio parents are. I know that’s controversial to say but it me it’s just natural.
My oldest daughter, by my first husband, has had no trouble letting go of my second, even though he raised her. She hasn’t had any close connection with her real dad either and even less when the 2nd left and she wrote him off. I wish it was that easy for my second, his biological child. She’s had a more difficult time letting go of him and in fact hasn’t, though she didn’t see him for about 10 years, she currently sees him about once a month for a couple of hours. I trust her and her husband to stay ahead of him and I don’t worry about it. But I agree, the biological ties can be very strong.
@AV
Yeah I had a step dad for 6 years from age 4/5 and yeah he also hurt me in his own way but I got over it even if it added to my resentment towards men. In all likelihood his mother was a narc and he never knew who his dad was, and his mum would lie to him and bread crumb him about his dads identity. She was probably a hoe and sleeping with multiple men around the same time and doesn’t know who the father is but doesn’t want to say that straight up. So he has his own identity issues and wasn’t fit to take on other people’s children and shouldn’t have even tried. He was only with my mum for her looks because my mum is mixed and he has his own issues around being black that he inherited from his mother.
However, coming to the realisation that both my bio parents are narcs was a very different experience.
And no I don’t believe people ever get over it, they just learn to live with it and accept it
Hey Leigh and AV,
I’m glad my thoughts on it were helpful and gave food for thought.
Leigh, I hope so, I hope my parenting style is similar to my dad’s. He did a good job. I wouldn’t change anything about my relationship with him, except maybe park my mum in a different house so we can actually get a proper conversation!!
I was round at their house the other day. I had come straight from the gym so my dad was making tuna salad for me in the kitchen (respecting my “no cake or biscuits please dad I’m training” request haha!)
My mum walked in as my dad and I were locked in conversation. I was sat at the kitchen table and he was stood a little away from me at the counter. I said hello to my mum and then dad and I continued talking. I nearly died it was so obvious. She walked straight over and stood directly in between me and my dad, basically blocking him from view, then started talking about something else!
Two things there. I was seated and she was stood right in my personal space which aggravates me to death. The second was the talking over whilst purposely blocking dad from view.
I sat back in my chair and looked around the back of her ignoring her comment whilst continuing the conversation with my dad. She stood her ground, I sat mine and it stayed like that until my dad was handing me the salad so she had to move.
Incredible, absolutely no way I could do that to someone talking, no problem for mummykins though! My dad clocked it and smirked to himself. Played along with me by carrying on the conversation.
I don’t think my dad gets irritated by that stuff the way I do. I think he would say “that’s just your mother” in a kind of accepting way. I think perhaps now he’s older, irritations like that just fall into the category of “not worth the argument” or he screens a lot out.
I do wonder about their dynamic sometimes and put it down to my dad’s ‘laid back’ approach. As I said, serene and placid don’t really fit with me but he seems to let a lot just bounce off him. I didn’t challenge her either but more, ignored and held position out of badness. So my dad and I are similar in a lot of ways but very different in others.
Xx
Hi Leigh,
Just saw your second message. Definitely not, I don’t see you as invalidating when we discuss things. I see it as a sharing of thoughts and ideas that are there to use or not use as either one of us sees fit haha! Me too, I enjoy our discussions a lot. X
I think feeling insensitive or feeling a little detached from some threads is likely down to a number of things. Self moderation definitely plays into it, I definitely don’t want to seem invalidating by offering my point of view at the wrong time.
Secondly, finding out I am an ACON was relatively recent. So those discussions or threads do apply to me now whereas in my own mind they didn’t before. I expect to feel differently almost, but I don’t feel differently. My views on my own quirks etc are the same as they were before. Apart from ‘well that explains that then’. I have an explanation as to why I cut off emotionally from my mum for example. In a sense, a justification for my own behaviour that I didn’t have before. I wouldn’t now change my behaviours, I just understand them better.
NA’s comment came at the right time for me. Experiences are different and for the reasons she states. She reminded me of a conversation I had in consultation with HG before I sent my mum’s narc detector in and the reminder was a very helpful one.
From what you have said about your daughter Leigh, her spotting the behaviour of her father and sister, she does appear to me to have recognised the contrast between you and them. She recognised their behaviour as ‘wrong’, which suggests to me that she also knew which behaviour was ‘right.’ In terms of impact from her sister and father, that likely depends on her own traits, her own defence system and her view of herself through other people including you. She is an empath though, so for me this means whatever impact the narcissists in her life might have had, it’s within her gift to be able to fix it :).
Xx
Hi TS,
That story about your mom inserting herself in your conversation with your father conversation, I really understand . My narc husband will often do the same. From your father’s perspective I can see why he downplays it. He doesn’t want to make the situation worse. I will often do the same. I do understand what you mean about having alone time to chat. I’ll often go for walks with my daughter in order for us to have a conversation without being interrupted.
I’m glad to hear we’re on the same page with regards to sharing our stories and viewpoints. I can understand why you were uncomfortable with sharing in those discussions before you learned you were an ACON. If you didn’t experience it, do you have a right to discuss it? I just want to reassure you that you’ve always been very kind and understanding in your comments to me. Many of your comments have offered me a different view and given me awareness.
Thank you for your last sentence. Yes, its within my gift to be able to fix it.
Hi TS, I meant to say its within “her” gift to able to fix it. I’m not sure what happened there. Maybe a little wishful thinking for myself.
Hi Leigh,
Sorry, I missed this last comment, hopefully this one lands in the right place reply button is miles away!
Thank you for your kind words. Likewise, I’m always interested in reading your thoughts. I read it as ‘her gift’ 😉
Xx
TS, I know this thread is enormous, lol!
Okay, I’ve got another question…
Any other contagions find that strangers often come up to you and tell you their secrets/problems, behaving as if you’ll have some sort of answer they’ve been searching for? Or people saying they feel like they’ve known you forever, and feeling immediately comfortable with you?
Or is this a cadre (magnet or carrier) thing, rather than a contagion thing? My mid-ranger ex even pointed it out to me a few times, though he seemed annoyed by it like it was in my control or something. He even once said, “You need attention from everyone, you live for it.” 🤣 The projection was strong with that one.
Hi Victorious:
Yes. All the time. In an elevator. Walking down the street. Dogs too. I go to the dog park and there they are. Maybe it’s kindness in the eyes? I have befriended homeless persons. I think it is recognition. Looking someone in the eyes. Maybe we are just there. We smile?
Contagion, what is your percentage contagion, per your ED, can I ask? I seem to experience contagion very differently to you and some others in this discussion. Mine came up as just under 50%. I saw you write you were majority Standard and Contagion, but I’m assuming one was over 50% and one under unless it was an even split. Hope you can answer. Thanks
Hi Annanmel! I am standard contagian. Everything else was tiny matyr, geyser, super, co-dependent like 10% or 1%. I am an attorney so standard made sense. Contagian to me was most interesting as I have made no secret of my crazy dreams I have had my whole life and searched everywhere for explanation. I follow science and read books about it too. But it was on this blog I met my mates in dreams! No scientific defined explanation but those who share my reality. HG has yet to discuss contagian and I am ready! No doubt we vary. If I was HG lol I would say these are empaths with great intuition cognitively and subconsciously. We are the ones with the sixth sense. We are highly sensitive and SOME have difficulty. We are sponges to emotion. We feel or know what others are feeling to the extent we can mirror it. We need time away. I say all contagians are nature lovers. They need it to regroup and love it. We are the gardeners, animal lovers, bird watchers. We love sitting by a beach, a lake a mountain. We need it not just like it. In return nature turns to us. We are soulful within, deep, and no matter our sincere front we are sincere, devoted and loyal people . We do nothing simply. I would guess in times we were the healers the witches the PROPHETS. Dreams were valued at certain times. We were always lucid dreamers. We were always interested in nature. Today science says that’s evolution if you read the book Sleep by a Phd from Britain. Some have various odd abilities in the six senses. That’s my two cents. I am not HG. We eagerly await his input!
Hi anaammel: I am standard contagian. The others are so small: matyr, geyser, super and co dependent. 10% to 1%. I responded but it disappeared. Here is my take: contagians have a very high intuition, like a mentalist, they mirror emotions ( science studies show this in the brain), they often have lucid dreams ( considered rare and evolutionary per the book Sleep) they need to break away and retreat to regroup, nature is key, the are nature people, gardeners, animal lovers, herbalists, they are soulful, deep, devout, devoted, and in history probably the witches, healers and prophets ( odd dreams), but this tendency does not make them immune from narcs. I think we know something is wrong but we ignore it and are prone to fixing things or trying to heal. I have met people here like me. I searched for others do to my lifetime of weird dreams that never ever ever ends without explanation. I am an absolute believer in God. I am not a believer in many things new age. But I keep an open mind. But I have these dreams. Other contagians here do. That means nothing. We don’t know what HG has to say. Can’t wait!
Thank-you for your reply and explanation, Contagion.
Have you completed an empath detector questionnaire? On the response to those it will give you a percentage for the schools and cadres. So for the schools (super, standard, contagion, co-dependent) there will be a percentage breakdown. For instance 55% contagion, 20% standard, 25% co-dependent.
Then for the cadres (martyr, carrier, magnet, saviour, geyser) there is a separate percentage breakdown. It might be 30% geyser, 40% Manet and 30% carrier.
If you didn’t complete an empath detector you may not know this info in this kind of detail.
Yes, it happens with animals too! I always felt it was an energetic thing with animals. Kids as well.
Hi Victorious,
I’ve had people I just met tell me, they feel they’ve known me for years and they welcome me like an old friend..I would say, we clicked right away. I also have strangers,who see me around town, smile at me warmly and I smile back. If I’m waiting in line, they’ll chatter me up right away. I’ve been told by some people, that I’m very warm and welcoming to them. I make them feel at ease.
Rebecca. Contagian.
@Victorious
It’s a magnet thing
It happened to me more often when I was younger and in a relationship with a narcissist so more vulnerable, people would just start talking to me on public transport.
Also the magnet thing meant I used to attract older men as soon as I hit aged 14. “I feel like I’ve know you forever” is a red flag.
Now that I’m more closed off and guarded, I don’t attract those kind of responses as much, unless I am actually helping that person.
Even when I go to places where I know there are going to be a lot of men like the gym and I don’t want to socialise, I always go with my wife, I go looking like shit hair looking raggedy, I don’t make eye contact, I don’t smile at them because as soon as I look like I might be friendly it increases the risk of a narc coming over. It does work.
Most 14 year old girls have probably found they appealed to ‘older men’ – magnet or not..
@annaamel
I think when you’re an empath it happens more often and it happened to me a lot. There was an incident that caused me to start feeling anxious about leaving the house for a few weeks
I really think it’s the 14 year old trait rather than the empath trait but perhaps empaths might appear less confident or more tolerant which may encourage more attention. Sorry to hear a particular incident caused you significant anxiety, Witch.
Witch, I do exactly the same.
Even when passing people on the street, my eyes are half-closed. Just don’t make eye contact. I observe only from the corners of my eyes or from under my eyelashes (I have long ones).
If I think I’m in danger, something is bothering me, I feel someone is considering a reaction I don’t want – I can fix my eyes on them instantly. Intense, cold and hard. I drill into someone’s eyes with a silent message: “Just don’t fucking dare.”
Usually the other person looks down or looks surprised and steps back.
Sometimes I happen to give this look to someone innocent, oops, then I feel remorse 🙂 I think my face must look terrible then 😀
———
When my daughter is angry with me or tired of my “lamentations”, she can look at me like a statue. No facial expressions. No life. Her eyes… are so empty then. They don’t even sparkle.
I was horrifie, when she applied it to me at first. Now I know, how to knock her out of this statue 🙂
@Joa
Yes you absolutely cannot be yourself when you’re an empath.
My wife is friendly at the gym but that’s because men compliment her based on her skills/what she can do/her strength.
If a man is trying to talk to me it’s not for those reasons, trust, I can’t even do on pull up unassisted. That’s why I try to look the least attractive and the least approachable.
That’s really interesting you say it happened more often when you were in a relationship with a narcissist, I think it tends to be the case for me as well. I wonder if it has something to do with our traits being heightened when we’re feeding the addiction?
I stopped going to the gym a while ago for that reason, I work out at home or out in nature now. I can always smile at strangers on a hike as I pass by 🙂
@victorious
“ I wonder if it has something to do with our traits being heightened when we’re feeding the addiction?”
Possibly and also most women age 25 plus aren’t going to put up with a lesser, which is why they are more likely to target kids and “barely legal.”
The lessers are the ones that are more likely to move to you on the street or public transport because they have no class.
@witch
That tracks, and lessers also seem unable to take a hint. I’ve not found myself attracted to any lessers as far as I can tell!
It seems I’m largely addicted to middle mid rangers and beyond. At this point I’d be happy to be swept off my feet by a greater, just to not have to deal with another shriveled up balled mid ranger 🤣
Side note–it’s looking like the answer to “What the Contagion Empath Does” is “post on narcsite all day” based off Recent Comments lately
HI Jordyguin,
Well I saw HG making quotation „like this“ and – like this – and thought to myself; to hell with it, double proofed last longer😬👍 — Works for me. Changing it up…all part of his mastery at the art of manipulation, I would guess.
“(Yes, I am bilingual and switching languages is a grammatical, punctuational and sentence structured mess at times🤦♀️All Tolkien languages would be a dream😍 What are yours?)”
I wouldn’t describe myself as fluent, and certainly I would not translation work at this time, but I can read middle-grade children’s stories (with pictures) in most of the following. Scottish Gaelic (my newest–lenition is amazing!), German, Italian, French, Latin, Japanese (Weak and rusty after little practice and years since formal education), and English (my mother-tongue).
All Tolkien languages…LOVE IT! I might know a few phrases in Klingon and High Valyrian…What are yours?
“HG’s classification, terminology and explanation is amazingly different!” –Yes, having found less than stellar information before, it’s quite nice to find such clearly stated information. All HG’s examples are helping me understand quite a bit. I feel like a youngling (not a padawan yet) too, despite having been around for approx. a year. HG is the master…I couldn’t resist…
“The articles, the comments, the books, the knowledge vault, the videos, the detectors, the consultations. The material is overwhelming…”–It is. Have you gotten a detector or had a consultation?
“I’m so happy you joined the blog Dani, formulating the questions I also want to know the answers too! The dynamic becomes productive and we can share, compound and draw conclusions! Even if temporary in nature, it stimulate to dig deeper. As with contagion empathy for example – we see how majority Contagions can be different with resembling core elements, and Cadre plays a huge role as well.” –Thank you! That’s so kind of you to say. It’s all been very interesting. And we learn from talking to each other, and we give HG more information as well. I’m really looking forward to listening to his narrations about empaths. (I like hearing the voice.)
What are your favorite go-to HG video/article so far?
I like the “Questioning Me” article. I learned (not a surprise) that HG is a Slytherin/Ravenclaw hybrid (with a smidgeon of Gryffindor). I learned just how quickly HG can determine of narc/empath/normal/narcissistic–“ten minutes” in conversation (Can’t help wondering how long it takes him in writing…I’m a curious person.) In one of the latest videos, he gave a small bit of reference to his professional life…I’m sure that his natural abilities mixed with whatever his professional job is have trained him to do have helped him hone this skill.
As a favorite character of mine (Garak) said in ‘Star Trek: Deep Space Nine’ (S5E12, if memory serves): “Because lying is a skill like any other. If you want to maintain a level of excellence, you have to practice constantly.” HG is obviously practising his craft every moment after he awakens to the Imperial March (I believe he said was how he wakes each day) to returning in the early morning hours.
Video, I don’t know how to choose. I like the interviews/Ask HG series/Lives. I really liked the interview with Harry about Autism. It was really nice to hear them explain the differences, and it was wonderful and thoughtful of HG to include an autistic person in the conversation. I think, as a whole, autistics will appreciate that. I’ve met people who see autistics as synonymous with “narcissist” or “doesn’t care about anyone.” It is NOT true. Harry explained it well, in my eyes. I try to remind myself that it comes more from ignorance in general about Autism. So many changes have occurred in the DSM with regards to autism (removing the requirement of accompanying intellectual disability and combining it with Aspergers). Stopping now…I will obsess if I don’t…if you want to know more I would check that interview out.
“I am still processing your new question from February 8. I think what you refer to in your question has to do with the ever-presence…” –Search HG Tudor Ever presence in YouTube. It is something of a complicated question. It definitely has some to do with that. But it doesn’t relate solely to presents given by narcs to victims. I think normals/empaths/narcissistic people may have the ability to do this as well. I don’t know that someone has to be consciously aware of imparting that energy to do so. It could be someone with the natural talent but no training.
Does the energy vary in strength if it is a object made by the person imparting the energy (i.e. someone who makes jewelry or crochets blankets) vs the thought and energy someone might put in to finding the perfect gift for a friend/partner? What role does the emotion the object receiver play in the energy of it? Is it a two way path? Or just one way?
Anyway…those are my thoughts at the moment. Can’t wait to hear yours and others.
Hi Dani! I took the test and was 25% each category not sure the Sorting Hat is the same as the Tutor test. I also think the energy someone puts into an object or person would differ. And the person making the one t or receiving it. A painter might love her painting like a child. A collector might also value the art. The imparting of energy to me suggests an act reflecting a will. An intent. I see that intent as varied among narcs, normals and empaths. Not sure this adds anything but I tried;)
You are a perfect split for Hogwarts houses…that’s it…the sorting hat will do your bidding. I was mostly Ravenclaw/Slytherin…about equal for both. Then a smidgeon of Hufflepuff and pinch of Gryffindor…
Generally speaking, it makes sense to me that there would need to be intent. However, I think a person could do the same if they were not consciously aware of their abilities and reaching out for help. Or if they sensed that another person needed help and was seeking to offer them something of comfort. I don’t know.
Dani, I love your language collection! How come you were interested in Japanese? (mine are german, russian and I can understand the slavic languages which have russian and ukrainian similarity to them)
For you🎁 https://narcsite.com/2016/07/22/always-watching/#comment-22363
🎁 https://narcsite.com/2016/10/10/twenty-putdowns/#comment-40250
„Have you gotten a detector or had a consultation?“ — I want to detect myself first and do the detectors after in order to compare how close I was. Consultation? No, I don’t have enough trouble yet to consult about ⍝(* .*)⍝Good to know where to go if I ever should get in trouble (but being a student of Prof. Tudor – why should I;)) Just want to understand the world, family, friends, other individuals, historic personalities, events, the meaning of everything. HG’s information is well put, I barely have questions. I read the archives anyway so even if I have questions, most were answered as our predecessors thought of like eeeeverything. I am looking forward to the knowledge vault at one point. Oh and the music! Can’t wait to listen to it! Still reading the books, blog. Prof Tudor is different from all Profs, lol. Creative in every area! The visual expression in the acting moments must be priceless!
„HG is obviously practicing his craft every moment after he awakens to the Imperial March (I believe he said was how he wakes each day)“ — There is a medieval arrangement for SW-Themes, this one I like:)) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmWTf8hQKqI
I thought about my favorite articles you asked of. I like those a lot where it says „crown“, „throne“, „salvation“, „redemption“, „sanctuary“. The articles with deep feelings, almost multidimensional-, mystic touch as it parallels a personal story of HG yet gives somehow a historic glimpse in to the collective of King Narcs.
„I really liked the interview with Harry about Autism.“ — I subscribed to Harry’s channel as well and watched his videos. He is doing a great job! From my observations, I think autistic individuals are direct and keen in their perception of holding the focus and full attention of whatever interest or passion. The determination; they are not that easy to bend by societal dysfunctions I think. Autistic kids have a strong innate connection to their needs and can’t be forced to obey a structure which might need a restructuring. They are very interesting! Also Harry talked of strong emotions involved, which is always a very powerful part.
Dani, your questions about the energy of objects are really good! Quite difficult to answer I must admit.
Are you asking about an object that no longer resonates with you or resonates too much and giving you a hard time?
I’ll give it a try based on what I learned, experienced and was told by others.
Generally speaking everything that an individual creates consist of an individuals attention-information-energy. What was thought and felt throughout the process and what was wished to put in to the object of creation if there was such an intent.
(Mentally by using imagination and existing knowledge, you my track back the creation of every object that was made to the beginning where it was wood, stone and so forth. The huge matrix from what once was earth to -> what became a factory, a design, a material, a product. It all consist of intention, information and transformation.)
What connects the two individuals- the giver and the receiver- is their bond in the first place. HG:„The nature of our victims being empathic individuals means that you are possessed of a greater emotional output than others“. — „possessed“ is a great word!
(->some sort of intangible form that lives inside a tangible form) What is but an emotional output? It is the lifeblood of a narcissist -> pointing out the importance of the mental+physical substance as emotions and feelings – both sprung from attention; a process which determines reality. Emotional output sounds like a metaphysical force almost. Now the object is rather symbolic in nature yet it still consist a particular story, thus energetic traces. We are conditioned to view the hard matter as dead “empty” objects but from the metaphysical or quantum or whatever energetic point of view it is also something else, which receives our (energetic) output and can preserve it in some cases or perhaps in all of them to a different degree. The force of the internal and external, mental and emotional output -> an energetic field which might cling on to objects if you will.
There may be scientific explanations, paranormal or other, but what’s most important is the practicality of the explanation in order to move forward and keep your feet on the ground, right? Not to get too scientific or too abstract or philosophical, but get to the practical outcome.
Your individuality, your perception, your feelings play a greater role in all of this.
“How come you were interested in Japanese?” — I knew I wanted to learn it the moment I saw it written out. It’s so interesting and complex. Hiragana, Katagana, and Kanji all coming together. And the history of how it came to be as it is just fascinated me. “german, russian and I can understand the slavic languages which have russian and ukrainian similarity” — Impressive. What drew you to German and Russian? I don’t think most people would consider them to be on the easy side of learning. (Though I think a great deal of language learning comes down to the attitude of the person, the number of languages they may know already, and their native language starting point.)
“For you🎁 https://narcsite.com/2016/07/22/always-watching/#comment-22363
🎁 https://narcsite.com/2016/10/10/twenty-putdowns/#comment-40250” — Thank you! I enjoy HG’s etymological lectures. The recent one on YouTube about the British term B******s was quite interesting.
“I want to detect myself first and do the detectors after in order to compare how close I was.” — Sounds like a complicated business. But I suspect it will be quite fun as well.
“No, I don’t have enough trouble yet to consult about” — I’m so glad to hear that. I feel like having heard from others that some of my troubles are incredibly mild by comparison. And I find HG can be overwhelming. I also think I’ve gotten more good, sensible advice from him than I have from most any other person. Not to mention knowing the warning signs.
“but being a student of Prof. Tudor – why should I” — I feel certain that if any of us encountered HG in the real world, it would take a substantial amount of time to figure him out. Might not ever happen. He’d know us before we knew him and make the ultra plan. I have no doubt.
“Just want to understand the world, family, friends, other individuals, historic personalities, events, the meaning of everything. HG’s information is well put, I barely have questions.” –Yes, his information is well put. I have many, many questions. I even adopted an HG solution to it. (I think he was being sarcastic when he made that suggestion, but it made sense to me.) He suggested that we have a special notebook always on hand to record our questions for him. Then, when he has time to do a live on YouTube, we have questions ready for the Ultra to answer.
How did you end up finding HG’s work? Generally speaking, I think most people have found HG after being ensnared. There’s another sizeable chunk that enjoy his wit regarding a famous narcissist whose husband published a book last month tearing down his family.
“There is a medieval arrangement for SW-Themes, this one I like:))” — It’s good. In December, I discovered the Imperial March/Carol of the Bells put together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66M8NwkRmew
“Are you asking about an object that no longer resonates with you or resonates too much and giving you a hard time?” That’s part of it, and the other part is considering items like cursed dolls, relics of saints, etc. It certainly seems like something widespread.
“There may be scientific explanations, paranormal or other, but what’s most important is the practicality of the explanation in order to move forward and keep your feet on the ground, right? Not to get too scientific or too abstract or philosophical, but get to the practical outcome.
Your individuality, your perception, your feelings play a greater role in all of this.” –That makes sense. I don’t know that my feet are on the ground when it comes to this.
Dani-san I had a crash course in Japanese, visiting Japan Festival in Munich years ago. The Kanji impressed me indeed. What an interesting complexity behind it!
„What drew you to German and Russian?“ — The force! Dad is german, Mom is russian✌️:))
„He’d know us before we knew him and make the ultra plan. I have no doubt.“ — 100% agree! We wouldn’t stand a chance.
„I have many, many questions.“ — This is what I mean! You have really great questions. All I would come up with would be jokes regarding Dr. O👓🧼.. (but I like her actually.. I like them all as they naturally must be special, kind, intelligent and beautiful women whose presence fill the many articles and stories we are reading and learning from💞)
Ganbatte kudasai🙆♀️ with your questions! Answered in Live would be a treat!
Imperial March/Carol of the Bells — is epic! Thank you!
This one is good too. A samurai version!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-2SzaLkPXY
„How did you end up finding HG’s work?“ — A friend pointed me in his direction. Narcissism was on the periphery of my attention and I never really looked it up before. I wouldn’t know what other psychologists mean by their classifications if I had to read or watch their sources. HG is the first! (the best and only👿)
How did you find HG’s work? How did you experienced the effect of HG?💥☄️⚡️🌪🌟🌑
„The other part is considering items like cursed dolls, relics of saints, etc.“ — My best childhood friend is moroccan and I’ve been exposed to so many stories and activities regarding curses, witches, ghosts and spirits growing up. Each time we met there was a new story about leaking information regarding a new curse someone ordered on their family, her sisters, cousins or friends and it involved all kind of objects usually which would be gifted or placed somewhere in their houses by visit. So they had protective amulets and stuff like that, visited witches to break the curses. It was part of their lifestyle because „All do it“ as she told me. Also they were more open towards the paranormal because they witnessed stuff themselves and it was somewhat a fearful experiences.
„I don’t know that my feet are on the ground when it comes to this.“ — Let’s assume all of the above is true and there are individuals who are capable of sending harm by possessing an object with their spells or power they posses. There is no reason however for their abilities to be stronger than your abilities to protect yourself from harm. Why should it resonate with you or attach to you if it is an energy of harm?
Jordyguin–
“The force! Dad is german, Mom is russian✌️:))” — That makes sense. A few of my languages have been acquired for reasons of heritage… Did you grow up speaking both in your house?
“Ganbatte kudasai🙆♀️ with your questions! Answered in Live would be a treat!” — It would be. Have you ever caught a live? I’ve caught a few…but rarely when I was able to ask questions, and it’s nice to listen to what everyone else asks. It helps me think of more questions for HG.
“Imperial March/Carol of the Bells — is epic! Thank you!
This one is good too. A samurai version!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-2SzaLkPXY — LOVE IT!
“A friend pointed me in his direction. Narcissism was on the periphery of my attention and I never really looked it up before. I wouldn’t know what other psychologists mean by their classifications if I had to read or watch their sources.” — Good friendship! Best to not wonder too much about what they mean, when HG’s makes sense and is helping you understand. He’s so good about many things, like reminding people not to jump to conclusions, that his students must “observe a person’s behavior over a sustained period of time.” In my search for information, I encountered the person I believe HG named ‘Dr. Plagiarizer.’ I gave up on explanations for problematic behaviors of some people that I very much wanted explained.
“HG is the first! (the best and only👿)” — I’m sure that comment is HG approved.
“How did you find HG’s work? How did you experienced the effect of HG?💥☄️⚡️🌪🌟🌑”
I saw an expression on the face of a certain royal at a sporting event…that expression matched the way I sometimes feel after dealing with behaviours that are problematic to me from family and friends. (Sometimes I have very different feelings after exposure to these behaviours.) I figured with prominence of said royal…I was bound to find plenty of people chattering about the situation. Searching YouTube took me to many different videos created by many creators, but none of the answers felt incomplete to me.
Eventually, the algorithm delivered HG’s most excellent videos to my attention. I don’t remember the title of the first. (There are 1000+ videos about that prince’s wife now.) However, I remember the first few minutes (not verbatim, but the gist). It was an experience.
HG’s behaviour (during the first few minutes) was a treat. It was HG’s behaviour that made me so curious. I’ve seen and do see that behaviour in many people around me. (I work I listened to the entire video (after listening to what I’m going to term, a haughty pre-emptive assertion of control over people known to me now by HG’s label: “Sugars”) I knew I had something unique with the way he behaved at the start, and I knew I was going to get an explanation unlike the others. HG’s explanation about the royal resonated with me, so I clicked the next HG video to see if it would, too. It did, so I clicked a third HG video… I knew I’d found someone who was explaining bad behaviour in a way that made sense to me.
Eventually, I clicked things not related to that prince, knowing that I had what I’d been looking for periodically. HG has remained as consistent as ever.
Part of a sentence got accidentally erased by me…I meant to say “I work in a place that HG has described as having a higher number of narcs.”
Dani, I once caught a BS Bingo live! Yay!
“Observe a person’s behavior over a sustained period of time” and don’t jump to conclusions too fast. — Oh yes! Hopefully I’ll master it one day:))
Yep I am fluent in Ger/Russ in speaking and writing.. two different worlds sometimes.
Thank you for sharing how you found HG’s work and its effect on you! It is very interesting to read! Also the insights of other contagions (majority and minority) and other empaths schools who share their observations💞
Here is another comment I came across a few days ago. I like its clarity and simplicity a lot!
– Reader: What’s your definition of insanity, HG?
HG: Remaining with someone who keeps abusing you and thinking it will change. –
…In that sense as the spring is on its way, may the new acquired awareness also begin to bloom🌌
Jordyguin–
I once caught a BS Bingo live! Yay! — I have too. It was fun. I hope HG will have time to do that again soon. I also think “HG Trivia” would be fun…where we answer questions about HG…
“Observe a person’s behavior over a sustained period of time” and don’t jump to conclusions too fast. — “Oh yes! Hopefully I’ll master it one day:))” — I feel certain that you will. And I have that same hope for myself.
“Thank you for sharing how you found HG’s work and its effect on you! It is very interesting to read!” — I’m glad it was interesting.
“Here is another comment I came across a few days ago. I like its clarity and simplicity a lot!
– Reader: What’s your definition of insanity, HG?
HG: Remaining with someone who keeps abusing you and thinking it will change. –
…In that sense as the spring is on its way, may the new acquired awareness also begin to bloom”
— HG, ever succinct. We can hope for the blooming of awareness. I think I’m getting there, bit by bit. I think how society defines the word abuse has been part of my problem. With certain behaviors being treated and written about as acceptable or normal by the media, it makes it more difficult to point out how upsetting they are. HG really nails it…calls it what it is…and I find it refreshing. The relatively new playlist of HG’s on YouTube, “Relationship with a Narcissist,” is very good. I’m so glad HG analyzed that short.
„I also think “HG Trivia” would be fun…where we answer questions about HG…“
Try this! it’s fun:)) (I failed miserably. I don’t know HG at all)
https://narcsite.com/2021/11/06/the-great-hg-quiz-2/
It makes sense you are contagian with a live of languages. You have a link to humanity, the undercurrent of us all. I speak some Spanish and am advanced in French and tried Italian. There is so much inner understanding of a culture in knowing a language. I married a Brit and even English is two languages as an American. For example, if you grasp French, they are way more polite and formal than say Americans. Even if you didn’t know the culture just learning the language tells you a lot. My goodness what you must know! Very impressive!
Hi WhoCares and Leigh,
Thanks for your answers to the naughty step question. 😂 Hopefully I won’t get a tour of the dungeon. If I do, I can always talk to the mice. 😂
New question…
Emc2gion said that there places that are a “no-go” and others have energy that is bouncy and chaotic.
Can objects (given by a narcissist or someone you care for deeply) hold energy in a similar way? If so, can that energy be “channeled” through that object and heighten your ability to emotionally sense that other person? If so, do you feel the energy you experience is more attuned to what the giver was feeling when it was given or their current emotional state? Can you be suddenly drawn to that object and find out later that the person who gave it to you was experiencing a strong emotion?
Dani: I myself have never felt energies from an object. But… I used to do card readings for “fun” at New Year’s parties. My friends flocked. I felt a tingly on my spine I must admit and was great at it. But the cards are general depictions, and it’s easy as a contagian to know what another is feeling or seeking. I had a few weird , coincidental moments like when my blues guitarist friend picked up a card saying a brunette was having a baby and gis 40 year younger wife daughter was a teen pregnant. Brunette. But I don’t believe. Yet I will not deny this tingly feeling I feel. It’s there. No idea why. Goes down my neck. ??? But there must be a scientific explanation. I am not a believer in tarot readers but for fun.
Energy of objects. Hmmm this is a hard one to explain. I have felt energy from people on things. I feel my grandfathers who passed, in his trees/ orchards, it’s calming to be near them. Before he passed he gave me his prized opal pin/brooch and told me when ever I go outside and see the colours in the opal in the sun,
I will feel him with me…..and I do. For some reason, people give me their jewellery from their ex partners. I have recently parted with it all because I could not stand the energy coming off it. I had an engagement ring, a wedding band from different people, a friendship ring from another, I couldn’t get rid of it for years in case they got back with their partners and would like it back. But I came to the conclusion that it’s not my responsibility.
I also get left jewellery from people who pass, or precious stones, coin collections etc…..I also feel energy from this.
The novel series The Ringing Cedars of Russia talks a bit about this.
When someone gives a gift to someone they impart energy/ intent on that object, it’s why when people part ways in relationships they want to be rid of the objects given as reminders of memories/ energy. Or when ppl pass they want their most treasured items to be left to ones they know will cherish and care for them, part of their energy remains behind.
I also get drawn to object energetically, I love to collect, or sell art, antiques, etc. In one of my treasure hunts I kept getting drawn to an irredescent shell beaded necklace, turns out it was an antique Aboriginal Tasmanian necklace and highly collectable, I felt the energy off that, and could feel it was something special.
When I was a child, at the back of my school was a forrest and I found a pile of shells, one was shaped like a boomerang, I felt a young boys energy on that. Years later I found out that it is where the Aboriginals used to go and feast on oysters, the shells had sat there for hundreds of years in mounds, the object I found was most likely used to break into the oysters etc.
EMC2gion
“…when ever I go outside and see the colours in the opal in the sun, I will feel him with me…..and I do.” — That sounds wonderful.
“For some reason, people give me their jewellery from their ex partners. I have recently parted with it all because I could not stand the energy coming off it. I had an engagement ring, a wedding band from different people, a friendship ring from another, I couldn’t get rid of it for years in case they got back with their partners and would like it back. But I came to the conclusion that it’s not my responsibility.” — That would make me uncomfortable too. I agree. It’s not your responsibility to hold on to these items.
How would you describe the energy from these objects? Did you feel an emotion? Is it experienced as heat/cold? Does it vary? When you hold one of the objects, do you feel a change in your energy field?
“I also get left jewellery from people who pass, or precious stones, coin collections etc…..I also feel energy from this.”– If it’s okay to ask, what do you feel from these? Is each one different?
“When someone gives a gift to someone they impart energy/ intent on that object, it’s why when people part ways in relationships they want to be rid of the objects given as reminders of memories/ energy. Or when ppl pass they want their most treasured items to be left to ones they know will cherish and care for them, part of their energy remains behind.” — That makes sense.
“I also get drawn to object energetically, I love to collect, or sell art, antiques, etc. In one of my treasure hunts I kept getting drawn to an irredescent shell beaded necklace, turns out it was an antique Aboriginal Tasmanian necklace and highly collectable, I felt the energy off that, and could feel it was something special.” — Very cool. Have you ever encountered something that you believed to be haunted/possessed? Are you drawn immediately upon entering an antique shop to certain objects or do you only know once you see it?
Thank you!
Hi Dani,
“I also get left jewellery from people who pass, or precious stones, coin collections etc…..I also feel energy from this.”– If it’s okay to ask, what do you feel from these? Is each one different? Yes. Different jewellery or objects from different people carry energy unique to the object. As I have emotional connection to those people they also evoke memories and those memories hold emotional energy. For example my grandmother on my mothers side left me her jewellery, and the energy of those is heavy, she was narcissistic. This passed to my mother who is in the narc spectrum. Part of me keeps it out of duty, the other part keeps it as a reminder to myself of why the relationship with my mother is how it is. From my grandfather the jewellery and stones he left exude a protective and loving energy like a talisman. I keep them together, to balance. I don’t feel heat or cold when I tough them. More my heart feels it. It’s hard to explain the feeling. Like a weak current I guess.
I get drawn to an object, in antique shops, I can feel it. I have been drawn to old books, and letters/ photos have fallen out. To a bag full of junk jewellery to find a gold wedding band….etc
I once woke in the middle of the night at my grandparents house, to see a tall man peering over me. It was like a shadow but not, a clear silhouette. I thought it was my dad, and I got up to look for him. He wasn’t there. The next morning I told my grandfather, he thought for a moment before he told me that the building apprentice that helped build my grandparents home had died at the house in an accident. He thought it may have been him. In the house I live now which is over 100 years old, I seen a man, every now and then run down the hallway. I told myself I was just seeing things. Until one morning my little boy woke up and said mum who is the man that keeps running down the hall? I have never felt any malice etc though from these experiences.
Hi Emc2gion,
“I don’t feel heat or cold when I tough them. More my heart feels it. It’s hard to explain the feeling. Like a weak current I guess.” Fascinating.
“I get drawn to an object, in antique shops, I can feel it. I have been drawn to old books, and letters/ photos have fallen out. To a bag full of junk jewellery to find a gold wedding band….etc” — COOL!
“I once woke in the middle of the night at my grandparents house, to see a tall man peering over me. It was like a shadow but not, a clear silhouette. I thought it was my dad, and I got up to look for him. He wasn’t there. The next morning I told my grandfather, he thought for a moment before he told me that the building apprentice that helped build my grandparents home had died at the house in an accident. He thought it may have been him. In the house I live now which is over 100 years old, I seen a man, every now and then run down the hallway. I told myself I was just seeing things. Until one morning my little boy woke up and said mum who is the man that keeps running down the hall? I have never felt any malice etc though from these experiences.”
Have you ever imparted energy to something you’ve created? i.e. a painting/craft or the like for a friend/family member? If so, what is your experience seeing it after some time?
Hi Dani,
Yes I infuse my energy into my artwork. Mostly I give it as gifts to friends/ fam etc, so it’s given with love. I usually want to improve my artwork after I see it years later. The perfectionist in me I guess. Or my thoughts and ideas/ techniques/ energy have changed, so I feel the energy is old energy for me personally.
Contagious.
This is interesting to read. I myself am able to do palm readings and also tarot. I also agree with you. I do not believe in tarot readings for fun.
I am also able to see what may happen, and predict how people are thinking.
I do have empathic traits, but do not consider myself to be an empath.
Interesting to read about the tingly feeling. I have experienced this too.
Thanks for sharing.
Hi Anna:)) why are you considering yourself not an empath?
Hi Jordyguin.
I am empathic. But I score very high on the dark tetrad. I fight every day to stay good and remain in the light. Therapy helps too of course.
I see it is important to protect the good from the evil. To keep the light on and fight off the darkness.
I have great respect for HG for helping people see, identify and fight the darkness.
I feel emotions more deeply than others, sometimes it is very painful.
There is this quote
“Whoever fights
monsters should
see to it that in
the process he does
not become a monster.
And if you gaze long
enough into an abyss,
the abyss will gaze
back into you.
by
Friedrich Nietzsche”
Hello Anna–
May I ask what interested you to palm reading and Tarot? I know a little about Tarot, having had a few friends who enjoyed it and placed varying levels of stock in it. I know very little about palm reading.
Do you find you get different tingling from different Tarot decks? (My friends have multiple decks.) I have not done a Tarot reading in many years, but I remember the different decks feeling different.
Are you interested in other means of divination? (For lack of a better term) Tasseography, scrying, or cleromancy? Have you experienced any of them?
Hi Dani,
I have always been attracted to palm reading and tarot since I was a child. A medium said I was a natural.
It is though just a hobby.
“Are you interested in other means of divination? (For lack of a better term) Tasseography, scrying, or cleromancy? Have you experienced any of them?
No, I have heard but never tried. I like how Tasseography is named after the German word for cup/mug “Tasse”
That’s interesting that you get a tingle from the Tarot cards. I’ve heard others say the same, and when I’ve done Tarot readings (with a friend who was very into Tarot), I got a feeling from certain cards and not others. There was one card that showed up in every reading, and for some reason, I generally had readings that were were 80% major arcana (I understand from speaking to a couple of people who do Tarot more seriously that this is unusual). I don’t know what the explanation is for it…maybe just coincidence…I don’t know that I put much stock in Tarot, but it can be fun. And if it helps some people feel better direction with what they’re doing (which is how my friend was using the cards at that time), then I think it’s good.
Hello Jordyguin,
Thank you for sharing. I’ve noticed some other information that makes me think of things a little differently. I’d love to read your thoughts.
Before encountering HG’s work, I also thought “empaths = contagions” and that was it. I really appreciate the way HG breaks down the way he sees the variety of people who really care about others (empaths) vs people who don’t give a crap about others (narcs).
“But Contagion is a separate school, so contagion empathy must be different from the beginning.”
Yes, I would think the capacity to have this school would be present from the beginning. HG says that the capacity for becoming a narcissist is in the genetic predisposition and the lack of control environment (different varieties; golden child, neglect, etc.). My understanding from HG is that super empaths come from an abusive environment as well.
During the 100K interviews, there were a variety of empaths (who identified themselves as having been determined via HG’s empath detector). There were two (I think) perfect four way splits. There was a super empath (Sam of the new “Tea with Sam and HG.” Excited for more.). There were some standard empaths. Doug, in one of his interviews with HG, went over his results from an empath detector. He was a majority super empath with ?insignificant (as HG put it, I think)? contagion.
HG has also said in different YouTube videos when talking about the different schools of empaths that there are ways to bring out minority schools. I don’t remember exactly how HG put it, but as I understood from him, if you have an empath majority standard with significant codependent we’ll say, it just takes finding the right key to open the front door and you can switch them from standard to codependent. Similarly, HG has said that for an empath to go supernova they must have some part, no matter how small, of the super empath. Keeping with a house analogy, break enough windows, get a supernova.
I guess my next question is…can the contagion school, if a significant or insignificant minority in an empath, be brought out (to varying degrees perhaps) similar to the supernova or the codependency? Can a nefarious narc take out whatever security system is in place…I guess.
Hi Dani,
I know you were speaking to Jordyguin so I’m hoping it’s okay if I reply also.
HG has said that all empath’s have some bit of Contagion. I think, to me anyway, that says that all might have the capacity for becoming Contagion but different factors will affect whether that happens or not.
I am a Standard majority who had a very abusive upbringing, I am not the only one here either, but what that tells me it’s that a lot of factors played into that development in me, the abuse but also other things. So many variables. FYC recently gave a great list of what can affect things on the monster Harry’s Wife thread.
If, as with your example, the majority Standard with the insignificant CoD does use the CoD response, something specific caused it to occur and it will be a temporary switch, the person will still be Standard afterward. I have majority Standard with very strong Super, close enough that in my case it is almost a non issue. But that said, I find I live much more in the Standard mode day to day and the Super comes out only in certain circumstances, nothing I do causes it, it’s spontaneous to a situation. Not being around narcissists causes it to really fade into the background, in most ways. Just my experience with it. My daughter has some Contagion, I’ve seen her react from it, it’s something unlike anything I’ve ever experienced, visibly visceral, left her depleted and shaken. Her strong reaction shook me up even, it was that strong. But short lived and then she was back to her majority CoD mode.
Hope this helps. AV
Oh no, reading down this thread, I see I was mistaken, HG says NOT all empath’s have Contagion, please forgive me! I think the rest of my previous comment is correct…
Hi AV–
Thank you so much for responding. It helps.
I’m sure there are many factors that play into which type of empath forms. HG has said he will teach us more in time, and one of his recent YouTube interviews was more about empaths.
If you don’t mind sharing, have you noticed any similarities in the situations/behaviours you’re being exposed to that bring out the super empath side? Has there typically been a narcissist involved or has it been in response to a dime-a-dozen jerk? Have you known the person well who brings the super out or has it been more in response to strangers? How do you feel afterwards?
What does it mean for you ‘operating much more in standard’ mode? I understand from what I’ve heard HG say that super empaths are less like to tolerate naughty narc behavior for long. How does standard differ in your experience from the super and codependent?
Knowing that your daughter’s contagion experience was brief, but intense, is quite interesting. Was it a response to a particular person or event, if that’s something you’re comfortable sharing?
Thank you so much for sharing.
Hi Dani, yes, very specifically, when I am pushed in specific ways, my Super will come out. I now recognize those ways as when I am being manipulated or coerced. The line goes down and that’s it. I have extremely little patience for this, always have, except with the romantic situations I’ve had, 4 of those, 2 were very short lived because this did come out. Two were longer, it took me longer to realize what was happening. The short lived ones, one was a lesser, so obvious and I ran, the other I think may have been a LMR, not as effective at the facade as the two long term ones were. This has happened with many women, only one that lasted a couple of years as a friend and I saw the behaviors for a good 6 months but didn’t act because I couldn’t believe it. She’s gone now too. But most women, it’s much sooner, they irritate me, the line goes down and that’s it. They may not all be narcs but if they come across to me as playing games I don’t tolerate that at all.
The most ongoing and powerful reactions have been to those I’ve known well. The attempts to work things out and then the realization it will not happen, the line, the walking away. I feel relieved and forward looking afterward, like good riddance. It is a washing of my hands of that person. Hoovers have not been tried to speak of after that point and if they were, they were not successful.
I can’t speak from personal experience to how the Standard and Super differ from the CoD since I have none of that but the Standard, for me, is day to day more likely to overlook more, just go about my business and try to have peace. The Super will kick in if someone is sharp with me unnecessarily, I will assess how to respond to that or if there is abuse witnessed, I won’t necessarily confront directly but will take steps to address it legally or with some authority that can do so effectively. It’s similar but the Standard is more mild, it’s my comfort zone, the Super I’m capable of but i don’t like having to go there but if I do, things get done. You may get more understanding from HG’s articles about the various Empaths also. I found those quite helpful.
As for my daughter and her Contagion element, it is insignificant, but one place I’ve seen it was in response to people at her paternal grandpa’s funeral. There are a lot of highly emotional people on that side of her family, being around that all day was very stressful for her, she basically lived the emotions with each person she talked to. Losing her grandpa was sad but it didn’t affect her in and of itself nearly as much as the people at the funeral did. She got really drunk that night, I think as a release from it all. Not a typical thing for her to do at all. I have seen it also three times after she has dealt with narc situations and two of those the police were involved. It was terrifying to see, for me, I didn’t know if she’d be okay afterwards, I didn’t know about narcissism or her empathy at that time. One police woman was trying to make her understand the danger she was in and I watched my daughter absorb the officer’s concern. It was a good thing, it motivated her to act but first she had to calm herself. She struggles with anxiety, I think it is this element that causes that in her. She is very connected to nature also, it’s her happy place and brings her back down to stability after her week of working in health care.
Hi AV,
Thank you for such a thorough response.
“This has happened with many women, only one that lasted a couple of years as a friend and I saw the behaviors for a good 6 months but didn’t act because I couldn’t believe it.”
Were you witnessing more unpleasant behaviors directed at you (NISS) during that six month period? Or was the problem seeing more how she was treating others?
“They may not all be narcs but if they come across to me as playing games I don’t tolerate that at all.”
I can understand not wanting to be involved in the games. Do you ever worry that you’re too quick in pushing the eject button? I think that’s what HG would call emotional thinking and something best not done.
“You may get more understanding from HG’s articles about the various Empaths also. I found those quite helpful.”
I shall take advantage of the search function. I’ve seen a few of the empath videos HG made on his old YouTube channel, Knowing the Narcissist. Excellent videos.
I’m so glad that your daughter got out of those situations. I hope that she’s doing well. Thank you for sharing. It really helps.
Hi Dani,
You’re welcome. I have enjoyed our chat, so thank you also!
With the other woman, it was both, things directed at me and also things that she was doing to others. It was only directed at me when I questioned anything, usually how she was treating others. It was a challenge and she would shut my questions down quickly, then sometimes follow up with a bit of devaluation of some kind, sometimes not.
I don’t worry about being too quick in ejecting people. I worry much more about questioning whether I should eject and in the meantime playing games with my own head, rationalizing bad behaviors etc to keep the relationship together. With my history, this is the best way for me to be at this time. Rather than being ET, it keeps me from ET. I am gaining confidence in spotting things and as that grows I will likely reject less, and less quickly. But also, this will likely sound cold and I apologize in advance, but there are 8 billion people on the planet, I don’t worry about running short on people that are not going to play games. When I question someone and they are significant to me already, if I have enough doubts, I ask HG, do an NDC. Most people are not that significant to me though.
One other thing, I saw a comment you had written to someone else, asking if they experienced the supernova’s or the cliff fightback. I don’t believe I have ever experienced a cliff fightback, I either walked away or it was a supernova. And interestingly each were in about the same percentage as my percentage of each, Standard and Super.
My daughter is doing very well thank you. I am glad it I have been able to help. Nice chatting.
Not surprised. Nature is essential to regenerating if a contagion. Lovely girl you have! Well done! So often people speak of parents or those who were narcs or empaths growing up. But what about our kids? I was worried as my sensitive, compassionate responsible, hetero boxer son joined the marines. They train to kill. He was deployed to Iraq. When bombed I asked him if afraid he responded “ sure my adrenaline was up but we run to danger not away from it.” He didn’t want his friends to tell me to protect me and contacted me from Iraq. HG reassure me military was different. Narcs don’t get trained to be narcs. Just because he was trained to kill didn’t make him a narc. Two stories. So proud. My son smoked pot and played video games. I am a single mother on an excellent relationship with his “ pop in” dad. When he was 28, leaving for boot camp, he actually apologized for his teen behavior and said I gave him everything a child could want. I was a great mom and thanks. I cry now writing this as he is now 6 years in. How lucky am I? Second, I asked him about the people of Iraq. He said they were good people, it is some people in the government not them. He said he would see these beat up trucks with third grade weapons try to “ bomb” the enemy but they are poor people without our advantages. WOW. No one would at a glance think my 6’3’ body hard boxer since 14 and marine of 6?years was an empath but I have seen it time and time again. His friends are the same from kindergarten. Loyal. Loving family. I could go on. And my daughter, different dad but the antisocial raised them both from 1 on. We were together 7.0 years total. My ex a diagnosed antisocial spoke of family and money. His only friends are family and he values them but in a different way.I wait on HG on psychopaths , antisocials: do they differ? Versus narcs. My ex was not a narc but his empathy well? Not really there. But he did see his children as part of him. Like cars. He loved his rolls Royce’s and took care of them well. Insanely well. When his son D from his first marriage needed help with drug addiction ( and crimes), my ex husband bought another rolls Royce but said counseling and private schools was “ too expensive” yet he paid for criminal defense attorneys and helped with rehab to a limited extent and his son is expected and must show up at holidays. His other daughter although bipolar is an obvious empath as is our daughter. Neither appear to have contagian empath but empaths all the same. They are very compassionate strong loving people. I have written before about my experiences coparenting with an antisocial. He did teach them to commit crimes when young ie run into a movie theater, don’t pay. He taught my daughter how to fight as he loves boxing too, and business and math. She does high math as a computer science major on full scholarship (80,000$ a year savings plus) at LMU in LA. While my mother was a banker, I do think her dad was positive in teaching business, entrepreneurship ( she has had businesses online, etc…). I always write to give hope if you must coparent with someone like my ex. It turned out ok! Actually, better than my wildest dreams. Now… my daughter did say her father does not like me…. “That’s ok honey… it’s not what he thinks of me that matters, it’s you. And he is clearly proud of you! Who wouldn’t be?”
AV, Dani
I believe some Borderlines
(and fearful avoidants) are mistakenly seen as Contagion empaths, isn’t it so, HG?
They may seek to portray themselves as such.
Ah, ok, I have noticed this in real bona fide Borderline empaths (not just Midrange narc). When they say something like ‘I fear that person is after me’ I get the impression that they are very very sensitive, hence my confusing them with Contagions.
And in terms of the Borderlines, you say perhaps half are narcissists and the other half are people with PTSD?
No, more than half are narcissists.
Borderline energy is too much. As a contagion the energy from a borderline drains me terribly. If I have been in contact with a borderline closely for a good period of time, it can take weeks to recover. It’s so erratic. Hg I imagine a true borderline could give fuel both positive and negative to a narcissist?
I do not categorise with reference to borderline.
Please explain. I can’t possibly see how a BOD, Narc or PTSD can portray themselves as contagian only to pretend to be. Maybe that’s it. Mirroring. Also HG I found a real new article on dreaming. It involves Alan Alda. It has to do with damage to neurons during REM Sleeping. I guess there is a link to Parkinson’s disease. I believe contagians have a similarity in dreams. Lucid. Believed by the author of Sleep (uk 2022). Your blog indicates it through members. So much is unknown about dreams. But we know our brain uses 30% more capacity asleep than awake. What I found interesting is this break from unconscious to conscious. Alan found himself physically fighting although asleep during REM dreaming ( where lucid dreams come from). I found it personally interesting as most of the subjects were in fight and flight mode. Fear. Whereas my lucid dreams never involve conflict usually only beauty. Nurture. Also I have RLS in the family of Parkinson’s. It’s a Northern European disease. It sleep. To me who reads all she can on this subject. Interesting. I think antisocials and narcs dream differently too. There is something there. Wonder what Freud or Jung would say? Sorry about my off topic focus on the subconscious but I feel there is something there that at least explains contagians.
Sorry HG I think I may be confused about the borderline. Is it that you don’t categorise Borderline Personality Disorder due to you determining about half are MRN and the other half normals or empaths with PTSD so it doesn’t exist?I have a few friends & family members diagnosed with BPD and I can only be around them for short periods, due to their energy. Perhaps they are MRN but their energy is way more heightened than normal MRN I have encountered and always my intuition is warning me because something bad always follows. It’s different to PTSD energy as well….PTSD is normally fear/ trauma based energy.
Watch the video The Borderline, saves me repeating myself.
But do they realise they are doing it?
To be fair HG, before I came across your work I knew about empathy but had no idea about the concept of “Empaths” let alone the different schools of empath.
“Dani says
And in terms of the Borderlines, you say perhaps half are narcissists and the other half are people with PTSD?”
“HG says
No, more than half are narcissists.”
Please clarify HG. You said you never said Borderline were narcissist and yet you say it here. I am just confused. I know websites and forum are notorious for misunderstandings. I am here to learn not to criticise. I am just very confused now.
You said that I stated that borderlines are narcissists, I did not state that, I stated that some have PTSD and are misdiagnosed and that more than half of borderlines are narcissists, that is not the same as saying that “borderlines are narcissists”. That is clear, it is you that is trying to misrepresent what I have stated and thus cause confusion.
Hi AC,
Thank you for asking this. I was trying to ask about which sorts of people might try to portray themselves as contagions.
Daniel, yes, when I have spoken to ppl who are the personality type of princess Diana, the empathic borderline, they have been very sensitive to people around them, of course because of childhood trauma or being surrounded by narcissists, and if I hadn’t known better, I would have thought “Diana was probably a Contagion.”
So I easily mix up the two.
@Contagious
I would also like to thank you for clarifying one major difference between Contagion empaths and Borderline empaths, namely that Contagion s are not so sensitive to criticism, I hadn’t thought of that.
I guess Borderline empaths have gone through heaps of abuse from a narcissist and are therefore more sensitive.
/Cat
Dani: Here is what I get. BPD sometimes is PTSD or CPTSP or a Narc or… a BPD in an episode that has no empathy. The key is the lack of empathy when abusive behavior occurs in this scenario. The point is BPD often has an element of harming another. It might involve a tragic figure someone who was raped, abused, etc… who suffers episodes of damage to others. I have seen it. My bf daughter has been diagnosed BPD. If angry at her mother, she will take pills, cut, attack etc…it’s attention seeking to get help or attention for what she is suffering. But if you just want your child to do her homework, the damage is bad if beaten to a pulp. The damage BPD does should equate to the sympathy the person who has it should receive. I am not sophisticated enough to know the difference between PTSD and or CPTSD as opposed to a narc or BPD. The damage is the same. I do know that PTSD is short lived. Triggered by certain things under certain circumstances whereas BPD is like Narcs…. Ever present. Tbh I listened to HG on BPD, and I agreed. Cluster B. Also I have read that Those who have BPD are more likely diagnosed as women and more likely there is a horrible trigger or cause. I feel for them. But some go on to become mothers or spouses etc… and their damage causes more damage. It’s not a judgment on BPD to want a stop to the harm they cause. You can sympathize with the cause while wanting the harm to stop. And I must say it’s easier for me to say that than a man, as a woman, because there are so many who identify themselves as BPD women who suffer due to horrible circumstances and are online. Also I am well aware BPD men etc… men are BPD too. The point is this personality disorder is dramatic and erratic often and causes harm even. When they harm themselves. It’s bad. I wish there was a cure. My best friends kid was in and out of institutions and hospitals and medicated nonstop like a Guinea pig. Through maturity, better not cured. Still medicated. My bf survived it beaten, broke and still hoping her child succeeds. BPD is a rough one. I just see hitting someone, threatening to kill yourself in cases of making a point, etc.. as no empathy. Her daughter does it to get her way, manipulative but RISKY, no one wants to see someone die but how fair is it when someone does it to manipulate? No one wants to address that but it’s fact. Thank God for the treatments today. There are good ones.
Hello Contagious–
“The damage BPD does should equate to the sympathy the person who has it should receive.”
If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying “more damage = less sympathy.” If I’m misinterpreting you, please tell me. I can understand that perspective, with the story that you’ve related. I don’t know that I agree (if I’m correctly understanding), and I don’t know that I disagree. It’s something to think about.
I don’t see any similarity with BPD and contagian. HG feels many are narcs or PTSD. For example, although contagians like me might be sensitive to emotions we are not or I am not hypersensitive to criticism or perceived criticism. Fuck off. I know who I am. And there is nosuicide attempts or cutting or unstable relations. Not in my life. I really don’t get this. Sorry please provide your analysis
Hello Contagious,
HG does say that more than half of BPD diagnoses should be NPD. He lays out a very good argument in his video “The Borderline.”
What if a majority contagion has depression and/or is ‘absorbing’ depression from someone frequently around them (and they don’t realize it’s not coming from them)?
I understand from Emc2gion that their experience is that it’s one on top of another. Depression on top of depression. It’s an external stressor that I think might result in the suicide attempts.
I also see how if close friends or family are experiencing upheaval (job loss, death, divorce, etc.) that emotional instability could be experienced by a majority contagion, particularly depending on the emotional/physical proximity to the situation. Constantly hearing the anger of your parents arguing or finding a parent stressing over finances or one in tears after the argument. I don’t even think there need be a narcissist involved here to cause the fluctuations (though I imagine it would get worse if there were). Then if that contagion begins acting out because of emotional overload, there would be criticism from many people whether they are normal, empath, narcissistic, or a narcissist. I think it would be worse if that contagion didn’t know they were sensitive at that level to others.
I think sometimes people see the ‘excessive sensitivity’ alone as indicative of BPD. But it takes a lot more than that (based on my limited knowledge and understanding of personality disorders and psychology) to diagnose something like BPD/PPD/NPD/OCPD, etc.
I like how confident you are about yourself above. Knowing what’s you and what isn’t.
Those are my thoughts…curious to hear what others are thinking.
HG was is an empath borderline? I am not aware of it. I agree with you that BPD are narcs ( ok with a twist) or PTSD ( includes CPTSD. I think there is no empathy with BPD. They scream, threat, get violent, manipulate.control. Even suicide attempts are often designed. Attention. While sensitive to criticism or perceived criticism, they react without empathy to others. PTSD does the same but only in limited bursts. Triggered. They have empathy otherwise. What is a borderline empath? Or an empathic borderline? I don’t understand.
Hello Contagious–
My understanding is (according to HG):
An empath can be (mis)diagnosed with BPD. HG says they don’t have BPD; they have PTSD or CPTSD. This is the type of person whom the mental health practitioner can eventually “cure” of their BPD.
Likewise, someone (not an empath), likely a narcissist…can also be diagnosed with BPD. (There is quite a bit of overlap in the diagnostic criteria for Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD), Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), and Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). My understanding is that HG sees all three of these disorders as being different classes of narcissist in his classification system.
If you want the more details from HG (in his velvety chocolatey voice) on this (which will undoubtedly be more thorough than my summaries), you can search YouTube “HG Tudor Borderline” or if you want another example, there’s a video titled something like, “Amber Heard: Is she a borderline or histrionic?” HG explains his perspective quite well in both of those videos.
“I think the intuition or sensitivity contagians have is not the same as a hypersensitive or paranoia to attack.”
Yes. I would generally agree they are different. That doesn’t mean that most of the world’s population won’t equate them to some degree, through misunderstanding or ignorance (or lack of exposure to HG’s excellent information).
“I also seem ignorant on empaths being formed from an abusive environment.”
HG has said that not all empaths result from abuse. (I don’t recall a good source for that off the top of my head.) But there is a playlist on YouTube “The Empath.” I recall hearing somewhere in the 3000+ videos (HG has graciously provided to us for free) that empaths can come from all sorts of parental environments. If I recall correctly, he has also said that the type of environment plays a role in the type of empath that is formed. I don’t recall hearing much more than passing info about that, BUT HG says he is working on gathering that type of information to share in the future. (Sounds like a massive undertaking, organizing all that information. I work in an information science job. It takes time to get it done, and HG is a busy man. But when we get it, we can count on HG’s thoroughness, I should think.)
“So is it possible an empath can become an empath trying to save an empath?” — A wonderful question for HG.
I hope this helps.
I think it is very sad, that we have all this technology and yet mental illness is still misunderstood and not treated accordingly.
HG provides us with information about narcissists which is amazing. Sadly though unlike physical illness mental health is not treated properly.
Many disorders such as BPD are misunderstood, discriminated against and not treated. The loved ones, family, friends plus the individual suffer because of this. I hope in the future mental illness will be understood and treated better so people can lead fulfilling lives.
Hi Dani! I don’t see it. It’s an oxymoron. Borderlines by definition lack empathy. I don’t know anything about fearful avoidants but it sounds like an attachment style from
Childhood. I think the intuition or sensitivity contagians have is not the same as a hypersensitive or paranoia to attack. Rather we are mentalists or sponges that pick up on exactly what’s going on with someone emotionally without a defense mechanism in place. For some including myself at times, you get drained. Nature is essential and retreat to regroup. I imagine some do yoga or meditation maybe are runners. I do yoga daily but am not a meditator or a runner, etc… there are many ways to rejuvenate yourself from being overwhelmed but isolation helps.we need HG to define contagian more as there seems to be a thread about it or perception of being related to Borderline due to the hypersensitivity of borderlines. I don’t see it at all. I also seem ignorant on empaths being formed from an abusive environment. My father was an alcoholic but brimming with empathy. My mother is possibly a narc or a normal from a WASPY background. She is a good person. . My fathers illness effected me. A lot. He was an empath I wanted to save from drinking ( and depression from being a Vietnam vet). So is it possible an empath can become an empath trying to save an empath? I was daddy’s girl. Yup. His greatest fan. He was a musician too. Talented. We were best friends up and until his day of death. He gave me the greatest gift a father could give. He said “ I am not afraid to die. I believe and God and he is with me. Listen. It’s all small stuff in the end. I forgive your mother. It is small stuff. What matters in the end is my children and my love if God. Don’t waste your time in the small stuff. Fix the issues with your brother. You are ten of them. Use your compassion. Do right by God. I love you.” What more than teaching a child at the end that death is ok can a father give? So since I came from a family not perfect … and I come from a line of many many many many empaths… there are narcs like my horrible abusive maternal grandfather, I am not sure empaths are created solely by some narc reaction. HG? Guidance?
Firstly, HG believes Borderlines are narcissists. This is his opinion.
Secondly I find the lack of empathy and understanding towards those who suffer from BPD outrageous and disgusting. They are stigmatised. Feel emotions more than others which has been proven with brain scans. The living hell of this they experience every day. There are different types of borderlines. Some are high functioning. Many misunderstood, all desperate for help. They often go to therapy unlike narcissists who believe there is nothing wrong with them.
HG is entitled to his opinion. Remember it is just an opinion. He is the master of narcissists. Not of the borderline and he has no empathy. Remember that wisely.
Firstly, once again Anna, you are wrong. I do not believe borderlines are narcissists. Watch my video about Borderlines so you can quote me accurately.
Secondly, remember, you are just expressing an opinion, an ill informed one.
HG thank you for your reply.
I could not find the reply button under your reply so I hope this comment turns up in the right place.
I watched the video. Maybe I misinterpreted it, but it sounded to me like you have the opinion that borderline is either trauma based or a form of narcissism. This is my perception of the video and how I understood it.
MRI’s have shown that those who suffer with BPD have high activity in their amygdala and are unable to regulate emotions like neurotypical people can. That they experience emotions more deeply. My opinion came from both personal experience and reading about MRI scan results from scientific literature.
Hi Dani,
I guess my next question is…can the contagion school, if a significant or insignificant minority in an empath, be brought out (to varying degrees perhaps) similar to the supernova or the codependency? Can a nefarious narc take out whatever security system is in place…I guess.
Interesting thoughts here. I am contagion and have a minority super. I have gone supernova a few times on narcs, not my normal response but the situation was extreme each time. The super kicked in as a defence.
“The super kicked in as a defence.” Yes. The super does seem more like a defence mechanism of sorts; the more super empath one is, the quicker the narc gets noticed and the more quickly they get rid of them or walk away. As I understand.
I don’t see how the contagion as a minority would function. It’s certainly not a security feature. It’s more…I don’t know that I have a good analogy…?a dream come true for a job well done? if the person is a deserving one….or ?a nightmare if the intruder is a narc?
If you don’t mind sharing, when the super kicked in, did the sensitivity you feel for all recede in prominence as felt for the narcissist on the receiving end?
Hi Dani,
When the super kicked in I was about to be physically attacked, I still felt the hate and rage from the narc, but the super made me defend myself, and the narc left.
Hi Emc2gion,
I’m so glad you were able to defend yourself, and I’m sorry you were in a position of being physically attacked.
Emc2gion,
Your comment resonates with me. I can relate to feeling the emotions of another and also using a defensive kind of ‘pushback’ in response. It’s a combination of both the contagion element and the super element. The two work in unison rather than separately.
Your comment also reminds me of the death of Tyre Nichols, the 27-year-old man who was bashed by a group of policemen in the US and died in hospital three days later as a result of his extensive injuries.
In recent weeks, I have been thinking about the Tyre Nichols case. It’s tragic and sickening. I also find it perplexing too, because it’s not a case of white policemen against a black man and it can’t be easily defined as a ‘racist attack’.
In regards to contagion empathy working in unison with super empathy, when I watched parts of the police cam video of Tyre Nichols being apprehended, chased and then bashed, I can now identify my own reactions when watching that.
Firstly, when Tyre was pulled roughly out of his car by one policeman and shouted at to get on the ground, he was absolutely terrified. He was surrounded by policemen and his facial expressions and body language showed he was petrified. He wanted to follow the directions and said something to the effect of, “ok, ok, I’m getting down, ok!” but he also wanted to escape because he was frightened about what would happen to him.
In that instance, the policemen were woefully ineffective at ‘controlling’ the situation. There wasn’t one police officer who could use his empathy to relate to Tyre’s distress. Instead of calming the situation, they used force and aggression which exacerbated things instead.
In that situation, I think a super empath’s response would be to react to the policemen who were using aggression and force. I’m thinking about what I would do if I was one of the policement. I would attempt to talk to the other police or do something in order to try and slow things down or redirect their attention to diffuse the aggression. As a super empath, I think I would feel Tyre’s fear and try to stop the other police from using such force.
I’m reminded of the police video HG analysed a couple of months ago in which a policewoman grabbed another police officer by the belt and pulled him away as he was aggressively shouting at a person who was stopped by police. It was a similar kind of altercation where the person who was stopped would not cooperate with the police.
When I think of this in more detail, the contagion empathy and the super empathy work instinctively together. It’s not a case of stopping and thinking about either one. It’s more a case of feeling (via the contagion) and reacting (via the super).
Also, it’s interesting that when I think of what I would do personally if I was in that situation, I don’t think about the consequences to myself of reacting in that way. I don’t ‘forward plan’ that the policemen would then retaliate towards me. For example, if I stepped in and tried to protect Tyre and tell the other policemen to back off, I don’t envisage that they could then push me away or tell me I’m being soft or lenient. I just act on the basis of my own contagion empathy.
When I consider that I don’t have any CoD element, it makes me think that the CoD may instinctively act with a sense of their own personal safety. From experience, I have seen that CoD’s think about (whether instinctively or not) what the consequences will be for themselves. Their tenacity – while appearing to be selfless – is actually self-serving in a wider context. That’s how I tend to see it, anyway.
Hi Dani, I do not personally agree that being a super empath causes you to notice the narcs sooner. As a contagion, I spent many many years absorbing the chaos of a narcissist. Only to finally escape, and immediately be scooped up “saved” by another narcissist. I can claim to have been young and stupid, but now I believe I was caught up in all of the energy. It’s not until you become self aware, and understand what is going on around you that you can have any type of real control.
Looking back, I can see that my super had kicked in at multiple times, but because I was unknowing, it was
just more of a challenge to my narcissist.
Hi Dragonfly2765,
“I do not personally agree that being a super empath causes you to notice the narcs sooner.”
You’re right that awareness is the most important part.
In HG’s article, “The Super Empath,” he says:
“The downside is the potential for the Super Empath becoming “aware” of what is happening, becoming unwilling to dedicate further energy to staying with the narcissist to fix and to heal and thus escaping.”
AND
“The risk factor however with a Super Empath is that their own personal integrity is greater than the empath’s and very much greater than that of the co-dependent and consequently of all these three classes of empath, the Super Empath is the one more likely to make a bid for escape and thus leave the narcissist with a cessation problem.”
I don’t know that they’re aware that they are a super empath at that point. I don’t know that they would readily attach the word ‘narcissist’ to their abuser. But my understanding from HG is that because the super empath has “greater personal integrity” than a co-dependent or standard, this makes them more likely to try to escape. I would interpret that as awareness of a sort. Similarly, the line super empaths draw when devaluation begins, to me, also is awareness of sorts. That doesn’t mean they can’t be hoovered right back in. I’m sure HG has many a tale of the super empath he’s hoovered.
He doesn’t mention the contagion in the Super Empath article. He only compares the super, there, to codependents and standard empaths. So I don’t know what the comparison is like for contagions. Information about contagions is somewhat sparse, likely due to being the rarest school. I hope HG shares that with us soon.
“I can claim to have been young and stupid, but now I believe I was caught up in all of the energy.”
I don’t understand exactly what you mean by this. Do you feel you have been addicted to the energy/emotions of a specific person more than others?
If you know and don’t mind sharing, what types of narcissists were they? What role, if any, do you think that played? HG says that specific narcissists target, consciously if a greater or the Ultra and unconsciously if lesser or midrange, specific empaths.
If you don’t mind sharing, do you feel you more experienced a supernova or a cliff fightback when your super kicked in?
Thank you so much for sharing. I’d love to read more of your thoughts.
Hi Dani, I didn’t clarify before that I am majority contagion. And 28% Super. When I said “I can claim to have been young and stupid, but now I believe I was caught up in all of the energy.” what I meant was that so much of my time was consumed trying to understand all of the chaotic emotions I was feeling.
I think a lot of those emotions were mine, but I also think that a lot of those emotions belong to the narcissist(s). It was like I was distracted by the chaotic energy. I was married to narc number one for 13 years. He was likely an ULN type B. Possibly a mid range though, because he was very big into the facade. According to the narc detector, my current narc, whom I’ve been married to for 22 years, is a Somatic ULN type A. Until I started reading HG’s work, none of it ever made sense. Now it all makes sense.
Hi Dragonfly! 28% Super, meaning a chance there for a Supernova, but then 22 years, so it never occurred.. Is your cadre Carrier? Would you mind sharing? Thank you!
“The Super Empath have a significant capacity for sustaining our abuse. They don’t roll over and doormat. The Super Empath can actually sustain a lengthy campaign of abuse without withdrawal without breaking down and without a steady erosion.”
And it makes sense why 22 years..
So your 28% Super also kicked in for the longevity of the relationship.
Hi Dani, the video The Empathic Supernova is also very interesting regarding the Super Empath and there is also a little bit Contagion mentioning. https://youtu.be/YxOjyjOIQgo
– The Super Empath have a significant capacity for sustaining our abuse. They don’t roll over and doormat. The Super Empath can actually sustain a lengthy campaign of abuse without withdrawal without breaking down and without a steady erosion. There is no slide downwards with this individual like the Standard Empath there is no sudden collapse like the Co-Dependent and there is no necessity of instantaneous withdrawal to cleanse and to purify like the Contagion.
The Co-Dependent for instance can sustain considerable abuse and sudden like a light being extinguished that is it, they are gone they break down.
The Standard Empath can also sustain our manipulations but their slide is slower and more gradual chipped away at.
The Contagion also can sustain reasonable degree of abuse but rather than break down, the Contagion tends to disappear having to divest themselves of the negative energy that they are experiencing as a consequence of the behavior of the narcissist.
– There are varying degrees and it is unusual to find an individual belonging wholly to one school. Instead you will have representation most of the time from at least two of the schools maybe three and maybe four.
– Most people have a majority categorization and one or more significant or insignificant minority elements. These significant minority elements are labeled as either strong minority, significant minority or insignificant minority.
– Some people are Hybrids, meaning that they have no majority element and they have two, three or four aspects from the group with non-prevailing. That is more unusual.
The Hybrid = all in one. Now „take out whatever security system is in place“ and you might have a Standard Monday, Super Tuesday, Co-D Wednesday, Contagion Thursday… (hypothetically)
Dragonfly2765,
I’m glad you’re finding clarity through HG’s work. I feel the same.
Hey Dani, my cadres are 30/30 carrier/savior, 22 geyser, and 17 martyr. So it makes sense that I’ve tolerated so much. Neither if my narcs were violent towards ME. They were with others. It was all mental. Narc 1 became more rageful and untruthful the older he got and I just reached the point where i had to get out for my kids sake. I believe this was where i had a supernova. No emotion. I was just cold and ended it and moved across the country.
Narc #2 was his friend and had been perusing me for two years. I managed to keep him at a distance while i was married. I knew nothing about narcissism back then. I was totally led by emotions. Narc 2 mirrored everything I wanted and hid the qualities he shared with my ex. Looking back i see many red flags. I don’t know how I missed them.
Over the years with narc 2 i was always spunky and spoke my mind. He enjoys the challenge and likes it when i get riled up to the point where i call him a name. The nastier the better After I discovered all the affairs, I was in shock and started reading about narcissism. HG is absolutely right. I am addicted to the narcissist. Why I didn’t immediately leave, i do not know… too worried about hurting him. Lol. I think the contagion part does not help me here. I even consoled a couple of his other women rather than get mad at them. I want to leave. The emotional thinking has its grip on me though.
Hi Dragonfly, I agree, my ex liked seeing my Super come out, he would bring it out and knew just how. Then he would sit there and watch it. He preferred that to my Standard actually. I think you are right, there is a point of self awareness that we need to get to for change to happen, world awareness also, in my case. Both of these happened exponentially in my case upon arriving at narcsite, much more than ever before in my life. I also agree that I don’t believe Supers necessarily notice narcs earlier, I think they react earlier, in ways that are beneficial to them, due to their personal integrity. A different school may react but may not do so in ways that will help themselves but rather still trying to help the narc or the relationship.
Because of something I read elsewhere, I will add that I was in a relationship for 32 years with my second husband, several Supernova type events early on and one big one at the end. The last one was finally “the end” but the previous ones I walked away believing I had brought things back to a place of health. I finally stopped having them for a long time because by that time we were married and I realized they were not bringing things back to health, they were only expending my energy and upsetting our children. So I stayed mostly in Standard mode for a number of years. I say this only to say that because someone has a supernova, it does not always mean they will end the relationship, that depends on a variety of factors.
And lastly, something else I saw… Wish I would’ve written to these two things where I saw them, anyway, my daughter has insignificant Contagion and even less Super but at the end of the significant relationships in her life she displayed both, the visible physical reaction and also the line and the end, never looking back. This is a little amazing since she is majority CoD, I have been so happy to see that bit of Super help her when she needed it. Even though at the time I had no idea about anything narc or empath related.
Hi Dragonfly2765,
“HG is absolutely right.” –He has a way of being so that I find comforting in ways.
“I am addicted to the narcissist.” –After listening to 100K interviews, I think that is a common sentiment of those who’ve been entangled with narcissists. It’s a statement that makes sense to me and some of my experiences as well, I think.
“I even consoled a couple of his other women rather than get mad at them.” I’ve not been in a situation like that. It sounds like utter mind-f***ery. I think not getting angry at the other women (who were also being abused and manipulated by him) shows compassion and understanding on your part. I think those are good traits.
From what I understand of your cadre breakdown, I think it makes perfect sense, too.
“The emotional thinking has its grip on me though.”
You’re in the best place I’ve found to get help with that. It’s one thing to know the advice, and another to take it, especially with emotional thinking involved.
I wish you well, Dragonfly2765. Thank you.
Hi Jordyguin,
Yes, the empathic supernova is a very good video. Full of good information. Plenty to think about; questions to ask when I find the right words. (I haven’t experienced a bad HG video. Some that are triggering and upsetting. Others that are eye-opening.)
Do you have a favorite go-to HG video/article?
Also, major side note, is English your second language? I’ve noticed you consistently place quotations differently. (I’m a language enthusiast.)
Hi dear Dani!
Well I saw HG making quotation „like this“ and – like this – and thought to myself; to hell with it, double proofed last longer😬👍
(Yes, I am bilingual and switching languages is a grammatical, punctuational and sentence structured mess at times🤦♀️All Tolkien languages would be a dream😍 What are yours?)
My favorite at the moment go-to HG video is, Destroy Emotional Thinking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DKXHsgVsck&list=PLwd9op9JpKOOlgs7a9Sx6bzhmffZMoXCG&index=33
Go-to Article? This is a hard one! Last summer I began to read the blog from the beginning via the archives and my bookmarks continue to pile up and there is no end in sight.
HG’s classification, terminology and explanation is amazingly different! His Morningstar light – shining brighter than of others – puts it on the spot! Thus quite important to take time (for me as a newbie as well) with maaaany stages he shines on. The articles, the comments, the books, the knowledge vault, the videos, the detectors, the consultations. The material is overwhelming and I know I’m not the only one who want quick answers, because the upside-down took us so long. HG correct the mislead position and we are as confused as amazed and don’t know where to look at, as we previously operated through different lenses, materials.
I’m so happy you joined the blog Dani, formulating the questions I also want to know the answers too! The dynamic becomes productive and we can share, compound and draw conclusions! Even if temporary in nature, it stimulate to dig deeper. As with contagion empathy for example – we see how majority Contagions can be different with resembling core elements, and Cadre plays a huge role as well.
What are your favorite go-to HG video/article so far?
I am still processing your new question from February 8. I think what you refer to in your question has to do with the ever-presence the narcissist created with the object he/she handed to you, as HG explain this in his articles. (I’ll post the link if I’ll find it, or maybe someone knows which one it is?)
Now if you add the Quantum-field, quantum-physics and theories, than yes you may state there is of course an energy-field the object consist of and the object contain the intent which was poured in to the object via the field of energy of the person. BUT I think it takes a very, how do I say? A very crafty person to do that consciously, of sort of shamanic and hypnotic nature and unconsciously via strong emotions, which create an imprint on the object (!theory). If we draw a line between the world of objects and the world of energy, than we can only speak of ever-presence and the psychological impact which was applied on to the object. If we add the energetic element – we refer to as contagions, who are connected to energy fields – than yes there is also an unseen, energetic connection with objects, its recipients, creators and whoever added on to them via energetic/emotional imprints.
Dani! Thank you for reminding me of HG ‘s work on contagians. I would agree. A contagian would eventually retreat from the negative energy exposure as opposed to a supernova. Of course! To me… it is to nature, to beauty, to religion, to reflect to love, to inner peace, to solitude. To confront directly ( I am 10% super and have done) would be to channel more anger as opposed to finding a balance or peace for the core being. Sorry about your attack. While angry thoughts or vengeance or righting wrongs has entered my mind, there are some things you can’t fix and even harboring these thoughts aren’t good. A fiery ball when thrown burns the one intended but also burns the thrower. I never regret an act of kindness but I have a few regrets over acting in anger. Although very few people I leave completely and if so I try on a positive note, there have been some whose erratic, dramatic or cruelty was not accepted as a risk for well being. I think when you leave, you leave a void that is noticed and felt. I think contagians are “ deep” people who provide a lot of emotional support, validity, good advice, people who are deeply supportive and loyal. People who love in great depth. So if they leave, the other is effected even if the retreat is brief as it means something. It is not a game, a power play or an impulsive move. It is real. They know it. They know something important has shifted and may not come back ever in the form before.
Hi Dani: I am contagian with a small percent super. I have never gone super nova. I admire the supers as does everyone. You think Superman or superwoman. But we all have our own special ways…. Of dealing
Hello Contagious,
I’m glad you’ve never been in a position where you were forced to go supernova. It’s interesting and informative to read about, sounding a little familiar. Personal experiences help me see parallels with my experiences more easily.
I’d need to feel much more knowledgable to say anything for sure. It’s also painful. I imagine hearing/reading the right circumstances surrounding one would be quite triggering. It sounds like it takes a great deal of unpleasantness to get an empath to that point.
Absolutely, everyone has their own ways of dealing.
I was reading about some of your dream experiences down below. They sound intense, to put it mildly. There’s a little there that I identify with as well. Not nearly at the level your experience was and is. (Not seeing someone I care for die.) But there is something about it that’s a bit familiar.
It’s nice to read your thoughts.
Hi Dani: well ok. When in law school a girl was raped about 6 feet from me in a neighboring building. He was a serial rapist written about in San Diego in a reggae band and he would leave a rose after raping a woman with a phone cord. I woke up to Clare screaming and called the cops. I screamed at him running saying the police are coming. I went to Clare. I was oddly calm as my roommate was hiding at the time. She couldn’t move. I found out the rapist was seen outside my bedroom window with his trademark ski mask. I was a den mom. Everyone came to my home for tv and food. I am always the host. Among them were very fine able bodied male students. So poor Clare who was alone. Maybe that’s super kicking in? I have a very small percent. I was a DA for a year but I could not handle the subject matter emotionally. Too much. I went into civil practice. I am a standard, a lawyer, a mother, a wife , a pet owner. I don’t know how to exist without caring for others. When younger a founded a children’s charity, did habitat for humanity etc… it went altruistic. Kids consumed me and work. But I don’t see standard and contagian as a majority. Both are me. I am majority both with marry, geyser and super and Cod very minor. Contagian is my soul, my unconscious, my underbelly. It permeates everything I do. Standard is my conscious my job, my role, my outward appearance. With my contagian I read people automatically. My dreams are beyond my understanding so I search for meaning. Here, I meet fellow contagians and it soothes me as it is rare especially in the unsubconsious dreams but I meet them. I have been getting irked about somehow BPD is related to us. None of my education including HG’s work suggests this. I think contagians are natural mentalists and sponges that have heightened intuition or 6th sense. Why? Well I don’t know why we are what we are. But I know who I am. Thank you Dani!
Hi Dani,
I’m not majority Contagion but have a significant Contagion minority element. I’m not sure if I have gone Supernova or not, what I will say is that I have an ‘off switch’. I’ll take so much and then suddenly, there will be a tipping point and I switch off.
When I do switch off I don’t get angry, I do the opposite, I stop transmitting. I draw the emotion back in to myself like a backdraft. I even visualise it as it happens. The emotion I feel at that point is disdain. I’m dismissive. All the good I felt towards the person just evaporates until there is absolutely nothing left. I’m also an INFJ, this response to me is a representation of the INFJ ‘door slam’. The person ceases to exist, worse, it’s like they never existed to me in the first place. Behaving as if someone never existed to begin with is the worst thing you can do to them, narc or no narc. It says ‘you don’t matter’ and ‘you have never mattered, not to me.’
Once I switch off, I don’t switch back on.
I’ve done that twice, possibly three times in my life. Definitely once with my mum, once with an ex partner. There are certain things I just won’t tolerate, catch that particular trigger and it’s done, I don’t believe I have control over it, it just happens automatically.
I’m not sure if that constitutes a Supernova or not. As far as my mum is concerned, I still have regular contact with her. There is no emotion left, but I will go through the motions of doing what I believe is the right thing by her, there’s just no emotion behind it. It’s intentional action, not emotional action. It has everything to do with who I am as a person and nothing whatsoever to do with her. When she tries to manipulate I am very comfortable manipulating back. I know what stings and I use it, but I don’t use it in an attacking way, only ever defensively.
The drawing in of emotion might be my Contagion element in play. I feel the emotion I send out so it is logical that I can pull it back if necessary.
There is no guilt as far as my behaviour towards my mum is concerned, just necessity.
Xx
Hi TS,
This was such a great comment I had to scroll through to respond. I love your description of the backdraft, that is exactly what it’s like for me also. Once it’s all in, the doors slam shut and that’s it, done. Those doors will never again open for that person. It has happened to me in a big way with all the known narcs in my life except my dad and many times in a more minor way, with people that were just showing themselves to be not worth my time by how they were treating me. I have no Contagion but very strong Super so I’m wondering if it comes from that? Also, I’m INTP, when you mentioned the INFJ for slam, I don’t know if my MB type has that or not but I suspect so. Though it may manifest in a different way. Interesting thing I will be looking into. Thank you.
Also, how you said you deal with your mom now, I could’ve written that, it is exactly the same. No emotion, only doing the duty required and getting out of there. No more are the long dreary conversations where she does all the talking and I must appear to agree. It saves me a lot of time. Haha. And of course the emotional drain.
Thank you for this comment, not written to me but it was helpful for me also. I may borrow your backdraft description if that is okay, very fitting.
You’re welcome AV, glad you found it useful.
Hello Contagious–
You expressed beautifully how you feel that you are a merger of your different schools/cadres and experiences.
“I was a DA for a year but I could not handle the subject matter emotionally. ” That is an exceptionally difficult job. I’m impressed by anyone who could handle that. I’d be a nervous wreck, about failing to get a criminal put in jail and equally about accidentally putting an innocent person there. I hope that you’re enjoying civil law practice.
“I have been getting irked about somehow BPD is related to us.” – I understand that, especially considering the view you’ve expressed of those diagnosed with that disorder. I understand that you find people with BPD to be abusive and absent all empathy. You said above: “Borderlines by definition lack empathy.”
I think there is confusion about the contagion empath, (that HG will clear up as he shares more with us about it). I think we’re all here because we’re looking for answers, about one experience or another. There may be some people here because they have been exposed to liars who claimed to have contagion empathy. I was curious about people who might lie about it. I think there are people who’ve had good and bad experiences with those diagnosed correctly or incorrectly (by the standards of a profession that recognizes this disorder) with BPD. I think misdiagnoses occur, and professionals may differ in their opinions when looking at the same results about whether a person has a certain disorder.
If you could please clarify how you got from what I said to the story you told about Clare and your experience at university, which is deeply horrible and something no one should go through (the rape or being a witness to it), I would appreciate it. I’m confused. I feel like I missed something somewhere, and I don’t know how to explain what I was trying to say without a little more context.
Thank you.
Dani: Clare was a classmate at law school who lived next to me in “ Dog Patch” at USD in San Diego. It was a monastery housing group. Her room was five feet from mine. She was raped while I was asleep. I woke up as did everyone in our viscunity and vocally called for help and called the police. Trust me no big deal.
“Hello Truthseeker6157,
“I’m not majority Contagion but have a significant Contagion minority element.” – If you don’t mind sharing, what is your majority?
“I’ll take so much and then suddenly, there will be a tipping point and I switch off.”
“When I do switch off I don’t get angry, I do the opposite, I stop transmitting. I draw the emotion back in to myself like a backdraft.”
If you don’t mind answering…Has anyone on the receiving end commented on this behavior? Have friends/family (not the recipients) commented on the change? If so, how did you respond?
By “stop transmitting,” do you mean just sharing emotional responses with the person you’re “switched off” to? Do you feel when you are “transmitting” that your emotions are soaked up by the person with whom you’re interacting? Do you visualize your “transmissions” in the same way you do the “switching off?”
“Once I switch off, I don’t switch back on.”
I think you’re right to protect yourself. It sounds like rarely that means doing this. There are certain things that no one should have to tolerate. If that means manipulating in return, I suppose it means that.
“I’m not sure if that constitutes a Supernova or not.” — I think you would have to ask HG to know for sure.
“The drawing in of emotion might be my Contagion element in play. I feel the emotion I send out so it is logical that I can pull it back if necessary.”
Do different emotions feel different? Do they look different when you visualize them? (i.e different colors/forms/etc.) Do you try to stop negative emotions? Do you sense when others are picking up on your emotions if you’re trying to hide them? Does this change with the emotional closeness (best friend) or relative distance (stranger on a train)?
Thank you so much for sharing.
Hi Dani,
Like many here I have representation in several schools but my majority is Super.
The first time I switched off was with regards to my mum. I was travelling in the car with my dad, my mum wasn’t present. My mum is still in my life on a regular basis. I estimate she can feel the difference in the way I communicate with my dad in comparison to the courteous way I communicate with her. I am aware my dad feels this too. I would describe my mum as ‘wary’ of me. I don’t take pleasure in this wariness, but I’m not uncomfortable with it either.
People that have seen me interact with my mum have occasionally commented that I am distant. Distant is acceptable, I don’t want to make others uncomfortable.
The second was an ex partner. He was in the room as I switched off. I saw his expression change, felt some form of realisation dawn on him. I can picture his face now, confusion, shock, uncertainty mixed together. He told me to look at him, I was looking directly at him. He told me I wasn’t listening, to please listen to him. So again I estimate he saw me as distant, no longer there.
In terms of transmitting emotion. Yes, I do feel that some people soak up my emotion. I am aware that I send out a lot of emotion if I feel affection / friendship / love towards someone. It isn’t necessarily the words I use, it’s the actual emotion that I send out. It feels independent from me as it leaves. I don’t visualise it as such, I do visualise it as smoke when I call it back in though.
My different emotions do feel different to me as I send them out yes. I don’t really visualise them as colour, more that I feel them as they leave.
I don’t really send out true negative emotion to my knowledge. If I do it will seem more like disinterest. I close the conversation down. It’s very rare to ever see me get angry, only a handful of times that I can recall and then it’s rage. If I’m hurt, upset, angry, I’m adamant not to give someone the satisfaction of knowing that they caused those feelings, so yes I actively try to stop negative emotions.
If I am shielding my emotions, no one can really read me. Very occasionally my dad (empath) might pick up on something but it’s extremely rare. No, friends, family or strangers won’t read me if I’m shielding. I redirect, get them to talk about themselves, people love to talk about themselves.
Most of the time I sally on happily through life. I laugh a lot, see the funny side of most things, I’m quite flirtatious, I’m sarcastic but in a teasing rather than underhand way. Really, I’m just too stubborn to get angry!
Xx
Hello Truthseeker6157,
“It isn’t necessarily the words I use, it’s the actual emotion that I send out. It feels independent from me as it leaves.” — Do you feel you can send a particular emotion to a particular person? Do you have to be within a certain proximity? i.e. Could you get a phone call from a close friend/family member who lives in a different city/town, realize they need comfort after a stressful day, and send ‘comfort’ to them?
“I saw his expression change, felt some form of realisation dawn on him.” — Do you ever feel like you absorb emotions from others in a similar way?
If you don’t mind answering, were there any similarities between the way your mother treated you and the way you were treated by your ex?
“If I’m hurt, upset, angry, I’m adamant not to give someone the satisfaction of knowing that they caused those feelings, so yes I actively try to stop negative emotions.” — Do you visualize this in any way? Does it ever take you time to figure out your emotions because of blocking them from others? Do you ever feel like you block them from yourself, if that’s not too personal?
Thank you so much!
Hi Dani,
I know you’re talking to TS but I just want to add my two cents. TS will often comfort me here on the blog. What I experience in those comforting comments is warmth. I don’t know if that’s what she’s sending out but that’s how it feels for me.
Hi Dani,
Yes I can send a particular emotion to a particular person. I joke with my empath friend about this, “ Come and take a break under my shield for a bit.”
He has recently escaped an ensnarement. So I can walk in in the morning, put my bag down and walk over to him. As he looks at me, I scan him almost, get a read on his emotion, to feel where he’s at, if he’s battling, anxious, sad, whatever he might be. So he could smile, try to put the light in his eyes, stand straight, crack a joke, it’s irrelevant, I’ll still read beneath and feel exactly what he’s feeling.
On bad days, he’ll stand closer, chat whilst I get on with what I’m doing, or not chat, just be hovering close by. Then I’ll send out emotion/ feeling/ a mindset. Stability, strength, the idea of taking things all in our stride, confidence, affection, reassurance, whatever is missing for him in that moment. He always tells me that he feels better for being around me. It is like a little break I think, it evens him out somehow, steadies him. So yes, I send out and absorb emotion.
No. I can’t transmit emotion unless someone is with me in the room. I would say I can’t absorb it either unless they are with me. I am perceptive though, I’ll pick up on how someone is feeling if I’m on the phone with them. I’ll notice a slight shift in tone or a selection of a word or words, but I won’t feel how they feel, it’s only through cues that I know. Text similarly, it’s just that I’m perceptive, I’m reading behind the words I’m not reading the words just as words. I’m not absorbing their emotion through their words though, it’s my interpretation of their emotion through their words.
No. My ex and my mum didn’t treat me similarly. They both used manipulations against me but they were different and even the same manipulation, triangulation for example, was done completely differently. They are different schools and cadres of narcissist.
Haha! I sound crazier by the minute here. Yes, if I’m refusing to show emotion I shield. I visualise the shield as a glass dome and I see it as I raise it! I even added some shimmer to it. Gawd. Haha!
It’s a bit like going to my corner. I feel upset, vulnerable so I shield, or I shield out of sheer stubbornness to not show how I’m feeling. If I’m shielding I’m not able to be selective. I can’t transmit to one person but shield against the other. If the shield is up, no one gets any emotional content. I portray me, but there’s nothing behind it.
No. I am always fully aware of my emotions at any given time. If my ET is high, some feel turned down, others heightened. I’m ‘nicer’ with higher ET. I know which emotions belong to me and which belong to someone else. So I might feel the sadness of someone, technically ‘I feel sad’ but I know that the sadness I feel isn’t mine, it’s theirs.
Do you ever actively stop transmitting emotion Dani?
Xx
Leigh,
I only just saw this, it was the sweetest comment and really made me smile, thank you. Xx
You’re very welcome TS.
When I think of this in more detail, the contagion empathy and the super empathy work instinctively together. It’s not a case of stopping and thinking about either one. It’s more a case of feeling (via the contagion) and reacting (via the super). Yes I believe this to be true wiser now.
Yes. That makes sense.
I think you are right!
Hi Dani: I don’t know what a contagian take off would be? Maybe revealing the killer in a cold case. I think our “powers “ are our innate knowledge of knowing what another is feeling and thinking. Even narcs. We feel a void, rage, jealousy, agitation, boredom or emptiness. We know something is not right during love bombing but we push aside our intuition. So let’s say there is a grave injustice, we would not confront it outright like a super at best we would reveal the truth, solve the crime, shine the light.
Hi Dani, aahh I see the autistic focus there:))) Yes, I recognised the moment you speak of as well; the different schools of empaths somehow include minority of other schools in them and the many mixes which are possible.
Your question is really great though!
„Can a nefarious narc take out whatever security system is in place?“
Well yeah, why not?!
At some point I mentioned Anakin Skywalker being a Contagion. And HG answer was: Correct. But I asked more than one question, so I don’t know which one of them got the correct.
But it’s obvious to me – Anakin is a Contagion and Palpatine removed the security system I would say.
Hello Jordyguin–
Which of the prime aims are met by narc who manages this (assuming they’re aware that they did it)? Presumably some fuel…more if the empath has more geyser…less if carrier, I would guess. I would also think it would feel quite powerful…very much in control…but we’d need HG to weigh in to know more.
And Anakin an empath under enormous external stress? Fascinating. I do recall HG mentioning that he was disappointed that Vader ruined his invite to “Narc Club” with the whole “Nooooo!” and throwing Palpatine to his death.
My guess would be; contagions perhaps may fountain with fuel based on the heightened sensitivity?
Anakin began as an empathic individual with the emphasis on freeing the slaves and the importance of being helpful towards each other, which would result in a peaceful galaxy (wide empathy range, moral compass).
His blood contained more midichlorians (genetic? criteria for the force connection) than any other Jedi, whilst he was discovered by Qui-Gon Jinn, who saw in him the chosen one who would bring balance to the force…
With time Palpatine began with his ensnarement. He facilitated Anakin’s emotional thinking and narcissistic traits, and his manipulations are on point. He uses fear, pain, shame, hope, pride and other tools to control Anakin. Step by step he cuts him off from his cohorts and loved one; smears the Jedi, replaces Anakin’s ideals and seduces him via promises of power in order to save Padme and bring peace to the galaxy.
Overall Palpatine succeeds in replacing Anakin’s identity with a new one – Vader.
Finally the scene when Palpatine reveal that Padme died – nailed it. The medic station implode as the painful fuel emanates from Vader and Palpatine thrives in his machination and Vaders fuel. Vader becomes Palpatine’s eminent IPPS and his main lieutenant; resulting in the accomplishment of the prime aims – the rise of the Empire and ultimate power over the galaxy.
And Palpatine will ensure to remind Vader of all the good stuff in order to drink deep of his fuel, until he replaces Vader with Luke…
If there wouldn’t be the force thing, I would categorise Anakin perhaps as Super (the strong narcissistic traits). The force thing makes it more Contagion for me however. The love-pain-fear-anger-greed he was going through, must have been an enormous catalyst for erasing the empathy and get a distorted vision of that intensity in order to become a galactic Berserker.
This is an amazing analysis! Makes me want to watch it again! Yay!
Thank you!💓Yay! It’s my first draft. I still need to read more and find out more about the differences of the schools and cadres! It is so interesting!!!
In the Star wars trilogy. No way Anakin was an empath. He was clearly borderline. He was so frightened of being abandoned or losing Padme that he let the dark side control him and nearly killed her by strangling her. I fact this is what lured him into the hands of Palpatine in the first place.
He also massacred the young Jedi Padewans at the temple. This is not the behaviour of a contagion empath.
Hi Anna, you are right, this is not the behavior of a contagion empath. This is an example of a narcissistic manipulation.
Yes, he also engaged in a romantic and sexual relationship with Padme, (when it was forbidden).
He ignored orders to guard her from within her room because he “can sense everything happening in there.”
He jumped out a speeder when he was getting a lecture from Obi-wan.
The massacre of the sand people (though the external stress could be his mother dying)
Still, there is Anakin sensing what his mother’s emotional state across an interplanetary distance. (Obi-wan did that in Star Wars: A New Hope, “millions of voices crying out in terror”) And Palpatine and all the sith have access to force powers…and I don’t think that there is any argument that could be made for Palpatine being an empath.
Well there is this thing with the Sith and the Jedi..
I doubt that every soldier, let’s say in the Vietnam or WW1/2 or any other war in history, was a narc or a psychopath, but also a normal and an empath who brutally damaged or wiped out the innocent population of the countries that were invaded. So the question is, what erases empathy, especially in those empaths and normals that allows their empathic nature to „go Anakin“ on children and women of the supposed enemy, throughout the history until this day.
George Lucas lays out his observation on this question with Star Wars (1-6). How do good intentions becomes the opposite and why? Which circumstances, morals and codexes lead to what?
The philosophy and the principles of the Jedi and the Sith are based in philosophy, mythology and historical events and George Lucas gave us food for thought in a modernised version, drawing parallels to our dilemma of conflicts and wars. This is what good films suppose to do in an entertaining manner, I would say.
The force sensitive Jedi were not able to detect the most dark and powerful force sensitive Sith, who paraded in front of them basically, nor other two faced Jedi amongst them. And if I examine it further and apply HG’s knowledge to this, I see the lack of control environment in the education of the Jedi-system. Detecting a force sensitive child and decide what their fate has to be on every aspect of their life. Well if some of those children have a genetic predisposition for narcissism, there you go. The Jedi Order was conquered from within long before Palpatine arrived.
Interesting. Perhaps HG could do a Stnarc Wars & Empath character personality determination like he did with Big Little lies. I really loved that, it helped put it all into perspective.
Oh wow. Can you post the link to where HG did that for Big Little Lies? I would love to read or listen to it.
Big Little Lies was pretty amazing.
Use the search function.
I would like that, too. (if and when HG has time)
Hi Emc2gion
I pray to my personal god that Mr Tudor doesn’t do a character personality determination for the Star Wars characters…
I will die of boredom having to watch through that! Hahaha!
Less of your cheek Z!
Hahaha Z! Same!!
“I will die of boredom having to watch through that! Hahaha!”
Careful, Z – no one’s been sent to the naughty step for quite some time…
aah Z 😉 and I will pray to my personal God = HG Tudor
and we both know whose god will win
WhoCares,
What’s the naughty step?? 😆🤣😂
Rebecca,
NA knows more about the naughty step than I do, but I haven’t seen her around lately…
“I left your Christmas present on Amazon.ca and Amazon.com by way of review on Sex and the Narcissist. Oh…..and I have decorated the naughty step accordingly since its my second home.”
https://narcsite.com/2016/12/19/save-the-children-2/#comment-56018
LOL! I thought the naughty was in Mr. Tudor’s dungeon and where he sent naughty empaths. LOL!
Make it more interesting then Z. Which character(s) in Star Wars are Contagions if any? Why?
Jordyguin I have written about my concerns of my son joining the marines. His lessons are to kill. HG reassured me military does not make narcs. When faced with war, an empath, a normal, even a narc is put in a situation of kill or be killed. I am an empath but if anyone were to harm my child in front of me while holding a gun, no question. Bang. I don’t know enough to weigh in on the Anakin analysis. But great fun!
I know what you mean.. The worrier aspect..
The understanding of why there is war (ever since, war of any kind) – lies in this blog.
Leigh,
The naughty step is a little like Purgatory, a half way house between sunlight and the dungeon, except in this case some of us work really hard to get sent down and not up 😉
I’m just not quite bad enough. But I’m working on it.
Xx
TS6157 -;Haha!
Lol, TS! I do recall how may empaths wanting to be sent to the naughty step.
I’ve never been sent either, lol.
TS😂🥲 Work really hard to get sent down?
..Some of us were born there😈.. not us though, we are hopeless😇😇 the only way for us to be sent down is to bring food and weapon arsenal to the cheeky squad.
Hey jordyguin! I love your question. We are so eager for more from HG. I am standard contagian mostly. Small parts geyser, super… but I relate to standard from being an attorney and contagian as it fits like a glove, especially with my dreams or subconscious. But a super takes on a narc and leaves. We all can go no contact. What could a contagian do? Infiltrate his subconscious? Cause him confusion? I don’t know. I am not sure what time we play. But I can tell you from my dreams it’s divided. I have this punk youth trickster that appears and he is always just beyond the staircase I know not to cross.The darkness I have felt unconsciously is a void. Cold. When I dreamed of my best friends death and she showed me the motive and time of death I awoke screaming on my knees asking God to never allow it again. True. True. True. The LA coroner confirmed the time at trial and the DA confirmed the motive. No one needs to validate my experiences. I live them. I first sought this blog as a way to understand. But no one knows. We use 30% more of our brain when asleep. Why? No one knows. HG excels at no other at understanding narcs. He is also a psychopath. He knows who he is. He tells us in truth. No person can alter my truth as an empath. Contagian fits. Why? I don’t know. Help. I got another dream last night. Never ends. ???
Hi my dear Contagious :))I hug you! You’re the best, I love your passion so🌺❤️🔥
For me, no „new age stuff“ either. (You mentioned crystals in your other comment. Crystals belong in to the earth, or in to the caves where they were found, they serve a purpose there and not on the outside. Unknowingly people continue to rip the earth apart where they shouldn’t.) The majority in the new age/ spiritual circles are narcissists anyway. Including the leaders and teachers. Not all, but most of the time. The atmosphere can be suffocating on such events. I ran from them as far as I can.
Are your dreams always lucid (vibrant, very colorful) or do you have also dreams which are normal? In terms of; they are like the real life perception and rather dimmed in color and even blurry sometimes?
What are your dreams about at the moment??
Jordy: I don’t believe in crystals, psychics, ghosts or auras. I believe in God. No, my passion comes from my dreams. And I don’t dream every night. I only dream in color and lucid. And I divide them into two. I have normal dreams. Often problem solving with people still alive or I see a logical solution to a legal question in a case. The others are what haunt me. I have always been known for them as a child. I see people who have died. I see places and people I have never met repetitively. As I have written I had a dream of a friend murdered at 40 who showed me the motive in writing on her notebook on her desk and so many clocks appeared at her time of death 2:17 am that when I went to her murder trial… I learned the LA coroner had only a 30 minute timeframe and mine was in it. The motive was what the DA was using through its investigation. I had no way of knowing her roommate lent her money. I had no idea she had a roommate as the one she had was a mutual friend. I have had friends “ calling “ for me who maybe I had not spoken to for months or years only to find out their mother ir boyfriend died. I have seen my beloved father and been to his “ home” only to receive a sticky note “ go home.” I listened to him once and he broke a conversation and said “ go home.” I wrote two books that were just from dreams. Harmless Error and Sparkles Saves Santa on Amazon. I had another that was Celtic mythology but I didn’t know it until I researched the next day who these people were I have seen my dead pets in a home. I have dreams involving other cultures, other times. Recently I went to a party of spoke I didn’t know in a place I didn’t know but there was a message from it. Once I dreamed of a friend ‘s friend dying under a tire and my best friend called me crying to say her friend Becca died in a car accident. I have many who recall my dreams of marlon. Rando on a beach. I was sitting on his lap holding hands. Walking. It was fat old main so I exclaimed I had a grandpa crush. My son was born premature at 7.5 weeks. I worried if he would be ok through 17.5 hours of natural labor. I refused drugs. I came home. Wing a young nut, I got on a treadmill, picked up a mag. My son was born on his birthday. If you know me, you know my dreams. But the unique on s are not “ regular” and sometimes like this week, I have no idea what they mean. Lu I’d dreamers are like 6% – people who have them in a lifetime. In a book I read last year by a British psychologist she feels lucid dreams are evolutionary. Whatever that means.I just read Alan Alda has damage from Parkinson’s disease that causes real life enactment if REM dreams. Neurology. There is no proper explanation but “ new age”? I would love to meet a real life psychic. Anyone know one? Not me.
Jordy: imagine for a minute you are me. You have a dream of an old boyfriend you are friends with but he is calling your name. You wake up. It troubles you a lot. You call him the next day. “ um hello we haven’t talked in a year but the date 12/4 mean anything to you? Well my mother died on 12/3. Oh so sorry she was lovely… how are you?” Nothing on social media either…
See?
Hi my dear! You are a contagion, connecting to the fields of the unconscious trough your dreams as you look to find understanding and navigation! Remember the science is not there yet to fully explain what you are going through. I’m sure you will find many answers and order in both: your dreams, the mental and the rational side of your configuration! Your talent in those areas is obvious!
I was told that both varieties of dreams: lucid and normal are important. The normal dreams are sometimes more difficult to „wake up in“ because they are so similar to our reality and contain what passes by as known and not given that much attention. I was also told: if we have nightmares it is because there is a fear in our daily life we must examine and get rid of first.
If you detect and unmask the particular fear trough the daily life examination, the cause of your dreams will change and open up new possibilities. Unless you solve the daily-human-mess so to speak the dream gate keepers won’t let you pass further. But as you begin to resolve it, those gate locks will click one by one, open.
Lucid dreamers are going in the opposite order sometimes to unmask the fear through their dreams first. So it is actually the preference thing. Either through dreams first, or the waking life examination first, or both sometimes. The focus remain on the ability to evoke inactive areas of the brain/ energetic configuration/ the soul, both in sleeping stages and the waking life.
The work on the psychological aspect of the personality – frees the energy so to speak to use it in dreams in order to benefit from this natural ability even further. It happens automatically actually. Some people indulge in therapy without changing the patterns of their behavior, is not what frees the energy however. Only the truthful internal and external progress changes that.
God..
I see and experience God as the Creator of life, visible and invisible. I connect with God through nature and I see humans of every race and genetics as his children. In my understanding God and Love building a unity which result in Creation. The human-physical experience being part of this Creation is one of the most important, to my understanding. The ability to connect through physicality, trough nature, trough Earth to God and Love is an essential step of returning home so to speak and beginning a new cycle of co-Creation, I think. And it is an individualistic endeavor of those who choose it freely. It can’t be a subject of „chosen ones“ trough collective recipes. Yes, there is a collective wellbeing that may be achieved as the society is transitioning, but the power to achieve that, routs in the awareness which is usually sought out by individuals and not the masses, though I remain hopeful for the masses as well.
The understanding of our history and the two kinds this blog speaks about is the most important topic I can think of.
Somewhere in our becoming we turned in a direction which lead to a narcissistic construct impacting on a half(?) of the population on this planet. It snowballed to where our earth is now. The physical and mental cruelty towards living beings, humans, animals and nature on this planet is beyond measurement. What causes it? All the different kinds mentioned on the blog. Every unaware and aware element who is placed on this earth and is given the option to do something about it. Which of course is not an easy task at all, due to the standing in the eye of the storm.
So yeah, I just continue reading, listening and learning here♡. As HG mentioned: become free of the clouded vision. Step by step it is achievable.
And to make you laugh but true: turtles. No explanation there. Last couple of nights I wake up thinking why are there turtles in my dreams. But everywhere. Crawling in my bed. In my room. Weird. Online it gives this great explanation but then last night I met other people in other places, and then it turned to sex. I am married. Am I cheating??????? But then it turned towards the long haired blond I was with showing me arguments in a brief I needed to write. This is what I call a normal dream. Nothing weird. Just symbolic representations showing a solution. I wrote them down when I awoke. So since I’m was boring, what do you dream?
😂😂😂😂!!!!!LMAO I almost choked on my chocolate milk! Love it!!! All good signs!🐢❤️🔥A sign to enhance some turtle traits perhaps or recognise they already exist in you. What could it be? Turtles are unhurried. There is a wisdom aspect which is tied to them in mythology. A reptile species which formed million years ago; they’ve been here longer than the homo sapiens and have a greater experience. They are shielded and placid creatures of water and the sun; both nourishing, life giving forces. We share a reptile brain with them, which is the older brain of the three we posses. Turtles everywhere around you in your dreams, sounds enthralling to me!!!! (Remember to have unhurried days with the two elements; water (ocean, pool, bath) and the sun (sun, fire, candle, warmth))
„So since I’m was boring, what do you dream?“ — 😂no, you are definitely not boring! Your dreams are very broad sectioned, again you are more gifted than most individuals, I can tell;)) I was boasting to a friend who is a very active dreamer about your talent! So he’d ask all about your dreams and how you do it.
As for animals, snakes are present most of the time in my dreams. I thought I was scared of snakes as a child (films), but when I encountered a snake in reality I fell in love with them!!! Snakes are always connected to the earth; they touch it with the whole underside of their body, their heart. They move elegantly, they renew themselves as they grow; and as all reptiles they enjoy/need the warmth of the sun and there are many more enchanting aspects to them.
I’m more of a type to look out for where does the dream information coincide in my waking life. As an example; if a dream would consist a turtle, I would make a remark to remember to pay attention to a „turtle“. I might encounter an individual wearing a T-shirt with a turtle and I would become alert. Observe him; what is he doing, what is he holding in his hands, what is he looking at, what is important for me to discover about him, his actions or conversation, or his behavior, since he is marked with a sign from my dream. It may all consist of something I need to recognise and I would try to follow up on that. Or I’ll pass a bookstore and see a book with a turtle on it, I’d pick a page and it will tell me something I may consider to make part of my mindset or again follow up on the information. Or I’d see just a turtle figure and that’s it, than I would look around and scan for information or peculiarity. Sort of a method of combining the dreaming and the waking attention for navigation to find something my dream consisted of, if the sign happen to occur.
Do you have friends around you who are also dreaming a lot??
I am so fascinated with your profession! How do you go about it as you can view it by HG’s categorisation? Do you recognise the manipulations and of what kind of school and cadre they are? (The different types of a narc, narc/psychopath, a pure psychopath?)
Contagian fits. Why? I don’t know. Help. I got another dream last night. Never ends. ???
Big hugs.
I can relate. I too seek answers.
Do your dreams ever relate to others – strangers you may have contact with – almost like your energy connects and creates a link? Even when you are not conscious of it? Like to be alone because you are not subject to other peoples energy?
Or you are drawn to certain people in a room due to the vibes they are giving off. Sometimes they are mixed and confusing and you end up watching and trying to work out what it is which is drawing you.
Aware of energy swirling when people are not present.
How much of what you feel is your own and not of others in the room? The dreams that plague and then come to pass, but why even have them if you cannot change anything? I question the point of them. I warn people – usually in a roundabout way – maybe I am too vague with people I am not directly connected with – so not to admit where the warning comes from.
With crystals = I love the feeling they produce and energy. I could bathe in their presence for hours. There is one particularly large one in a museum – I love the vibes coming from it.
It feels like there is a reason – a point to our experience – but I have yet to find it…
Very much agreed…;- )
First I have to THANK Jordy as we are soul mates. Hers are mine. I rarely if ever meet someone who believes th same as me. I was just telling a Muslim friend in Pakistan on vacation from London a detailed history of religion. How much we are the same. How God is in every religion as he is love and defined love. But my new friend Enthralled, great name! I rarely meet people or places I know in lucid dreams only dead ones I know. That’s what is striking. I will sometimes not often go to a place, like last night and recognize it in every detail. Last night I met new people at this place and had in depth conversations. But when I awoke, I was confused. I had to remind be myself I did not live there, it was a dream. Took a moment as it is so real but compares to nothing. Sometimes my conversations with these strangers have deep meaning or prophecy. And I don’t know what to do. A few nights ago after joining a party with unknown strangers I n an unknown quite beautiful place a friends deceased mother appeared and told me a childhood friend had breast cancer and she would lose her right breast but be ok be grateful for health. This mother had the face of the woman I knew at 13 but had aged white and old. So? Do I call my friend? I don’t think we have spoken in 30 years. Crazy right? Now when I got two “calls” at night from an ex boyfriend I speak with every 5 years or so about a crisis. I called him and his mother who I knew 20+ years ago had died the day before. A good lady. A week later I had a dream about my dead friends home in a place I have never been at a pool party and she went down a street while I watched and flowers arrived. Her knees bent and she screamed as if someone had died. I checked the internet her boyfriend had died. Suicide a week before my dream. I could go on and on and in. I don’t get it. But I look to science while believing in gifts from God. All my dreams are lucid in color and like mini movies. Some are quite long! I know the normal dreams as they are short, not emotional involve live people in a live setting and usually have a problem solve message. Sometimes it’s me! It’s written. I write out an argument to a case. I wake up and write it down. But most of my dreams are not in any way at all relatable. Some places involve space. I am not even on Earth. Rare. To be honest who knows where these places in my head are they don’t follow normal rules of geography or time. Even animals are different. There are some common: the White House. The lava hot springs. The city with staircases. There is a place you don’t enter and a trickster character looks like a UK punk I see, a Moroccan bizarre, a dessert with a circus, etc… gorgeous, never been. A stage in space, people dancing in the northern lights, etc… space. There’s a place in Australia on a mountain where I met friends. We talk politics and the beef farmer likes football. I could go on forever. Makes no sense. No connection usually with my life unless the person is dead, or just died or was killed.
Awe!! My soul!! That’s so sweet of you to say! I feel you:)))) I feel many dear people on the blog, as I follow their contributions and insights! Also when I read through the earlier years. I am puzzled, as right from the start the most interesting group of people appeared and created in depth conversations, light and dark.. It says a lot about HG actually and his soul-vision if you will.
– „Sometimes my conversations with these strangers have deep meaning or prophecy. And I don’t know what to do.“ –
Follow the hints from the dreams, as you already do, and see what happens! Your link is clear and you are fearless, which is a huge plus. You gotta find orientation with the hints in your waking life. The more you follow, the more direction and new hints – will you receive!! This is the trick actually. Something acknowledges that you listen! and will open up more and more.
– „I could go on forever. Makes no sense. No connection usually with my life unless the person is dead, or just died or was killed.“ –
The death element plays such a significant role with you. You know there is no death right? What does this knowledge leave you with? I mean look at the pace of your dreams and the variety! It is almost too much to make sense of it, but you are open for this input, thus this is what you need, want and have the ability to decipher.
Some of it will have the guidance for your waking life, questions, answers.
Some of it will show you deeper meaning of things, places and people. Perhaps some connections with other dreamers you only have via dreams.
Some of it will be to rest and rewire of your daily attention (your brain).
!💓
Hi Dani, I’m insignificant Contagion. I’m only 8% Contagion. I experience it in two ways. The first is my guardian angel that sits on my shoulder. I imagine my guardian angel is my grandpa. Every once in awhile my guardian angel will steer me. The second way it happens is when I’m in direct contact with someone who is experiencing a heightened emotion. I feel their emotions but only when I’m in direct contact. As soon as I move away, I no longer feel their emotion.
Since my contagion is insignificant, I don’t experience these things all the time. I can’t control it. It just happens when it happens.
I’m under the same impression as AV that all empaths have a little bit of Contagion. Mr. Tudor talks about the Contagion in the Three Strands of Empathy.
Hi Leigh,
Thank you for responding.
HG said below in this page that not all empaths have the contagion, and he said in the video “The Three Strands of Emapthy” that most empaths have a little bit of it.
Have you recognized the contagion coming out more in positive situations (i.e. happy, contentment) or in more negative (i.e. grief, anger, depression)?
Direct contact. Does that mean physically touching, in the same room, listening over the phone, an especially emotional email/text?
“As you move away” Does that mean physical proximity or emotional proximity? Have you experienced the contagion more with those you feel emotionally close to (friends, family) or equally with strangers out in the world?
Thank you so much for your time. I greatly appreciate it.
Hi Dani,
Being able to feel another person’s emotions is only one piece of my contagion element and its the piece that I experience the least. I’ve only experienced it a handful of times.
In order to feel someone’s emotions, I don’t need to be touching them but I do need to be near them. I have to be sitting or standing next to them. It doesn’t have to be someone I know. Its happened with strangers as well. The emotion they’re feeling has to be heightened though. When I say as I walk away, I mean physical proximity. If I’m no longer in their physical proximity, I can’t feel their emotions.
I don’t feel it over the phone or through an email or text. However, this is when another piece of my contagion kicks in. I don’t feel what they’re feeling but my spidey sense (intuition) will kick in and I can intuitively understand how they are feeling or what they’re thinking. When I responded last night I forgot to mention my spidey sense. Which is ironic because that’s how my contagion element manifests the most, lol.
You’re very welcome Dani. Always happy to help!
Dani: I know this is to Leigh. But you know. Direct contact isn’t necessary. But I would love to hear from Leigh and others. Thanks!!!!
Leigh: see I believe you completely. I have no contact with the dead but in dreams. And contagians know how others feel. I have met psychopaths and narcs. The problem is you know something is amiss but your next step is to fix it. Wrong. Now I have met some who are so void and cold they are have no connection. And sorry HG but I believe to the Light.
Hi Contagious, I don’t have contact with dead people either. My Contagion element comes out in 3 ways. First and most prominent is my spidey sense or my intuition My spidey sense will tell me when someone is lying or genuine. Second is my guardian angel, also another piece of my intuition. This piece helps me with things more than people. It will steer me clear. Like taking an alternate route to work and then finding out there was an accident. Things like that happen to me frequently. I imagine that my guardian angel is my Grandpa who passed away and he’s helping and guiding me through life. I don’t actually have contact with him though. I just like to think it. Last and the least prominent is feeling someone else’s emotions. Its only happened to me a handful of times.
Hey Leigh I like the spidery effect. No I see dead people in my dreams. Infrequent in my life and detailed to the max. My murdered friend took me to a spa in lava and shopping, it’s all free. Her home in NYC although a Jew she had a waterfall and nudist statute, I have been to my fathers house, saw his big dog and in picking up a stickie note in his kitchen he told me to go home. It was his writing. I described the house ti my mother. She said “ that’s him.” Si many dreams. Too many to recite here.
Hi Contagious, so are you saying that being visited by dead people in our dreams is part of the Contagion element? That’s interesting. I’ve only been visited by two people that have passed away, my father and my best friend. I didn’t consider that it was real. I just thought it was a manifestation because they were an integral part of me. Hmm. That’s something to think about now.
Hi, fellow contagions! I’m excited for this series. I’ve a lot to read here but just did a quick scroll–Is it really true that contagions aren’t a narc’s first choice, HG?
Also, do any other contagions pick up other peoples’ manner of speaking or physical mannerisms after spending lots of time with them?
Hey victorious! Yes HG said we aren’t his first choice. Wonder why? Think it’s good. Contagian know when they meet a narc even a greater but become confused or determined to bring light to dark. To balance. It’s a challenge or a needs I think. I am a standard contagian. It sure about the switch if there is one. As an attorney I carry others problems. My daughter put it perfectly. I said what do you want to do in life? She said not take on others people’s problems like a layer or doctor. Ouch. I don’t mind. I thrive on it. Helping others is my greatest blessing. Outside of work too. I am taking an elderly neighbor to see Frozen Saturday and a mentally challenged friend if 30 years to see Romeo and Juliet on Sunday. I don’t look at it’s anything but an honor. How lucky am I to help less fortunate. But they need help. As far as picking up on facial expressions, gestures and speech, there is lots of neuroscience on mirroring. But is contagian empathy conscious or subconscious, neuroscience and others don’t know. I would say it’s an unconscious trait.
Hi Contagious, thank you for your lovely reply. Contagion not being first choice is offending one of my narcissistic traits 😅.
I’ve come to realize that I do get a certain feeling around narcissists but I was never sure what the feeling was until recently. It feels like a simultaneous push and pull. So contagion is not your majority?? Reading about all you do for the people around you is inspiring! Happy to hear that you thrive on it, I know some people feel burdened by their emotional empathy. I agree that contagion empathy would be an unconscious trait. I can’t wait to hear what HG has to say! I’m also curious what the standard empath is all about as it’s the only one that was left off of my chart.
Yes WHY aren’t contagians HGs first choice? Lol Thank you as well. I don’t feel I do enough. Just a regular gal who wants to help:)
Mr. Tudor,
I’ve explored both of your YouTube channels for more information about the contagion. I understand from the videos that I’ve watched that those in this group experience the emotions of others somewhat telepathically (for lack of a better word) and that this can be overwhelming for them.
Have the contagions you’ve interacted with described what they experience as generally pertaining to all people or do they report feeling highly sensitive to specific persons? Is it a mixture of both? Have you noticed the percentage revealed through an empath detector relate to what they report if they have consultations? i.e. A person who has a higher percentage in this school/cadre experiences feeling the emotions of more people and/or more strongly with those they’re close to. As it lowers, is a person more likely to be sensitive to specific persons or only at certain times?
Thank you so much for all your time and energy that you put into sharing your expertise and world view. You’re sharing a gift with many people. I’ve been looking for information like what you provide off and on for some time; yours, by far, is the clearest, most concise, and consistent in a way I’ve not found elsewhere. I’ve found so much fascinating and helpful information through your channels and blog.
Hi Dani,
You have asked some great questions here about the Contagion Empath. Many ppl here are interested to learn more about the Contagion Empath due the the rarity and little info available out there. Mr Tudor has provided great insight into the CE in his empath detectors.
After completing the Empath detector I was able to understand myself more and why I am so different to other people. I am a majority Contagion Empath determined by the empath detector. I can not speak for all Contagion Empaths but I can provide my own experience and perhaps other Contagions can add their ideas/ experience as well.
1) Have the contagions you’ve interacted with described what they experience as generally pertaining to all people or do they report feeling highly sensitive to specific persons?
For myself it’s all people and living beings in general, and to cope I live a semi reclusive life in the country. I can handle people in short bursts but need a lot of alone time to recharge. I also feel emotions through the energy in emails, text messages and shows etc on tv. For example if someone is upset or distressed on tv, normally I get overwhelmed with emotion and end up crying, even though I myself may not be sad.
If I am close to someone, friends/ family I do feel their emotions more in the sense that my own emotions are connected to theirs on a personal level. For example I can feel my best friend is upset, anxious etc…..if I hyper focus without having physical or verbal contact with that person for sometime. I generally can’t do that for random ppl on that level unless I am physically close to them because I am not connected to them on a personal emotional level.
I read on another thread here that Mr Tudor believes we are born with a blank canvas and are taught empathy. Depending on our genetic makeup and our environment (Controlled or lack of controlled).
For myself I was born to MMR mother I believe and a Narcissistic father with an extremely volatile and lack of control environment for most of my childhood. So I always wondered why I was so different. From birth my grandfather used to take me a lot, he loved children and was an empath. I also spent a lot of time with my Aunty who was also empathic, and I preferred both of their energy profiles more than my parents energy profiles.
I hope some other contagions add their thoughts/ experiences here as well to help provide more clarity
Emc2gion,
Thank you so much for responding! I have more questions, if that’s alright?
How do you find yourself/your emotions after being around people? You said it takes a lot of alone time…but are you able to watch TV or read books? Or is that just trading one set of emotions for another? Is it easier to read/watch something you’re familiar with like a favourite childhood title or is something novel more likely to help? Or do you do something else with lower risk of emotional input?
Are there particular actors/actresses that you have a stronger response to? Do you avoid or gravitate toward watching their performances?
Are there certain genres of TV shows/movies/books that you avoid because you know they will be overwhelming? i.e. Shows interviewing families of murder victims or victims of violent crimes.
Is there any physical distance limitation? i.e. If a close friend travels 100+ miles away, are you still able to concentrate and sense them if they are in distress or really happy. Have you ever sensed this and been able to later confirm it with that individual? How do they react?
Thank you again for responding. And thank HG for setting up this blog for people and the YouTube channels.
Hi Dani,
How do you find yourself/your emotions after being around people? You said it takes a lot of alone time…but are you able to watch TV or read books?
This depends on the situation. I will use the battery analogy. When I am alone and emotionally calm I have a full battery. Certain situations drain my battery more than others. If I’m having a coffee and spending time with my best friend who is also calm and happy, my battery doesn’t get drained. If my family and I go out for a nice dinner I don’t get drained much if the environment is nice. Shopping centre/ malls can be full on. If I focus on what I need and get in and out in a reasonable time, I’m okay. Hospitals are a no go zone unless I am dying or a close friend/ family need me.
Sometimes though the energy of the certain places seems to bounce around the shiny floors and glass and it feels like chaos. I’ve learnt somewhat to block and shield myself from emotions from others etc which helps. However the residual energy sticks, and in situations that this happens I usually shower or if it’s bad I will have a deep bath.
Is it easier to read/watch something you’re familiar with like a favourite childhood title or is something novel more likely to help? Or do you do something else with lower risk of emotional input?
Water helps a lot to cleanse and diffuse energy and calm myself. Listening to calm/ beautiful music can help a lot as well in different genres. I am creative so writing, reading and practising visual arts are also my favourite coping mechanisms. I don’t watch too much television it can be a bit too much. Spending time in nature is also great to diffuse energy, and centre myself. Watching a campfire, sunset, sunrise, star gazing, waterfalls, sitting near big shady old trees etc.
Are there certain genres of TV shows/movies/books that you avoid because you know they will be overwhelming? i.e. Shows interviewing families of murder victims or victims of violent crimes.
Yes! I can’t stand horror, violence or heavy metal music. I get anxious before I even start watching/ listening. If there is violence I hide behind a cushion. I find some childrens movies affect me as well. I cried in Nemo, The Land Before Time, The Never Ending Story etc.
I do enjoy fantasy, romance, good documentaries. I love the Lord of the Rings but hide behind cushions during the violence. Rivendell is a dream.
Is there any physical distance limitation? i.e. If a close friend travels 100+ miles away, are you still able to concentrate and sense them if they are in distress or really happy. Have you ever sensed this and been able to later confirm it with that individual? How do they react?
My best friend lives this far away atm. Yes, I have been able to confirm it. Sometimes she appreciates this, other times she gets annoyed because I already “know” before she downloads/ explains. My sister gets annoyed because she doesn’t like others to know or read her emotions, which I completely understand.
I have also tried to warn a good friend of a potential situation that could cause her harm/ distress and she took it the wrong way and thought the opposite. This was very upsetting because she had know me since I was 4 and yet in this moment if felt like she didn’t know me at all. But what happened was she transferred all her hurt and pain onto me. So I’m vary wary of doing this now, and usually keep what I feel from and about others to myself. So I don’t intrude or take on others pain/ issues via transference
It can be of benefit at times as well, in certain situations when my grandfather was in end stage of life and in physical pain, but unable to communicate with staff so they could understand, I could feel and help relieve his discomfort, which he confirmed when he was able to speak. My grandmother always said I had healing hands.
I’d love to hear some of the other Contagions responses here. I hope this helps Dani
Hi EMC,
I have more questions, please. I, too, would love to hear from other contagions.
Please tell me if I ask anything too personal. I can become too interested. (Autistic hyper-focus) Your answers are so helpful and informative, and they resonate. The same with the little bits and pieces HG has shared in YouTube lives and interviews (my favourites of his YouTube offerings). It’s the closest I’ve found.
HG says that contagions are the rarest school. Have you ever interacted in person with another contagion? If so, what was it like?
Do you remember always being this sensitive to other’s emotional states? If not, do you remember when you realized what was happening?
What did you feel from HG when you first encountered his videos and/or blog?
If something traumatic happened to a close friend/family member, have you ever felt it if you aren’t concentrating on them? Or are you adept enough at blocking that it’s not much of an issue?
Thank you so much for your time. I greatly appreciate it.
Hi Dani and Contagious,
I have never met another contagion empath but my grandfather had a high level but I believe he was another school, my son is showing a lot of traits as well. I have family and friends etc who are empaths from other schools.
I remember feeling different from around 4/5 years. I noticed that I was very sensitive to other people. Certain people I did not go near because I didn’t like how they felt….mostly adults, but some children as well.
What did I feel from HG? This is complex. From myself I felt fear, because I felt his darkness. He is definitely a narc. I have always wanted to do a phone consult with HG but I am afraid and overwhelmed by his energy. From his work I have relief. I am not crazy this exists empaths and narcs. I have found comfort in his work on the contagion as to reasons why I am different. I feel intrigue at Mr Tudors body of work and his intelligence. Curiosity at how a Contagion and Greater/Ultra would interact. I have read Mr Tudor likes Super Magnet the most due to the energy profile etc. I don’t think he has met a contagion empath in person yet, I wonder if he is curious, and if meeting one would help him understand more. I feel sad for Mr Tudor not feeling love and positive emotions, and sad for what narcissism means to empaths in general.
Blocking friends and family emotionally? I have had to learn how to do this, with all people, it has been a journey. I have to remind myself whose energy/ emotions I am feeling, and put up an emotional protective barrier. If you can imagine feeling sad yourself, but then sad from other people on top it becomes overwhelming, and the same for other emotions.
Contagious: I have lucid dreams a lot, and warning dreams. For example I would be warned if I was going to have an encounter with a snake the night before. I always dream in colour, doesn’t everyone? One of my favourite novels is called Dreamside by Graham Joyce, it’s about lucid dreaming, I highly recommend.
I also am one to believe in signs, symbols omens etc. Insect and small creatures seem to come to me. Often I have golden scarab beetles as my back door delivering a message or letting me know things will be positive etc two in the last week. Dragonfly’s are another and lady beetles.
Nature is essential to contagians. Essential. And we draw frikin it and it to us. Dogs will run to you at a dog park. Butterflies and birds will follow you. Plants will grow as you nurture them. I have had scab bugs land in my hand. Nature loves you and you it. If a contagian you must spend time there.
With great interest I’ve read here your contributions and would like to share also a bit of my life.
Round half a year now I live with the label contagion, a label that helped me to better understand what I may be.
My feeling for and with other people is a dominant factor that cannot be erased. My moral compass makes me feel that way. (I still believe feelings are based upon thoughts)
I feel more bound to a family member than a remote stranger in some way, but what prevails is a sense of equality.
After having been amongst people I need time to find back to myself either through sleeping or reflecting my experiences, kind of sorting them into my system. Definitely best alone and without distraction.
HelloEMC and Dani: fellow contagians! We know what separates us. First: we always know what someone is feeling and often feeling always. Our intuition is incredible but because of that we bear the brunt of negative feelings and emotions so as empaths we react to it. Want to heal, nurture, and fix. Compassion. We are sponges. Second: when we encounter a narc, we emotionally know something is amiss but we apply our emotional thinking despite the sirens and red flags. Third: we attract people and animals even insects? As we have high functioning mirror imaging ( science has backed this for contagians), people tell us everything, dogs run to us at the park even if we have no food. Fourth: dreams. Our dreams are different. We have dreams in color, with the ability to alter them or lucidity and in my case sometimes although rare premonitions that come true. Or we get books, music, problems solved in dreams. I personally think the dreams are the key to contagians only a small percent in humankind have lucid dreams regularly. Fifth: we need nature like air to retreat. It’s essential. There are studies on contagian empaths and there are different brain differences. I am so interested in learning more from HG. We aren’t the first choice of his lol.
I don’t know if I am or am not a contagion (or have any part of that school in me) I haven’t taken the empath detector. There’s something that resonates with me, but as for more, I couldn’t say. I’m quite curious to learn more from HG. HG has always delivered excellent information via YouTube and here. (Love the videos and the chocolaty, velvet tone.) So glad I clicked the link to his video.
HG’s favourite are magnet super empaths. He’s said so multiple times.
Contagious
I wrote a novel called The Secret of the Sixth Sense when I was a child, I haven’t had it published. Most definitely we have a heightened sixth sense as contagion empaths.