To Control is to Cope : Narcissism and Its Creation
To deal with and to address the vagaries of life, human beings have developed coping mechanisms. These coping mechanisms vary in terms of the extent of their use, their impact on the user, the impact on others and the frequency of their deployment. Some coping mechanisms are regarded as ‘healthy’ and others as ‘unhealthy’ and some may be a hybrid of the two, dependent on the extent and duration of usage.
Distancing is a coping mechanism. You may distance yourself from a situation and people, but prolonged and extensive distancing may lead to isolation with the associated problems which such isolation can bring. Short-term distancing can allow recovery, re-charging and avoidance of an ongoing harmful situation. Longer-term distancing which is targeted on one or more chief proponents of harm can lead to near complete removal from toxic and harmful influences. No contact of course is a coping mechanism which incorporates distancing as a central tenet of it and is the most effective coping mechanism to apply with regard to your recovery from ensnarement with our kind.
Crying is another coping mechanism. The release of tension, held-grief, feelings of misery often evaporate as a consequence of somebody crying. You may be told ‘have a good cry, you will feel better’ and indeed many people have testified to the beneficial impact of doing so and thus crying achieves release and often acts as a signal to invite comfort from others. It is a coping mechanism deployed by people to deal with a stressful, worrying or hurtful situation.
Self-harming is a further form of coping. The distraction caused by the painful response of cutting (cutting being just one form of self-harming) enables an individual to relieve the pain of certain other feelings, it achieves a release, a distraction and also enables that individual to exert control in circumstances where they feel unable to exert control (or to the extent that would make them feel comfortable). Self-harming whilst a coping mechanism is regarded as a negative form of a coping mechanism.
Expression of feelings. Being able to ‘talk it out’ and ‘air your feelings’ is a coping mechanism also. The ability to talk to someone else who will just listen, even if they offer nothing in response or even just to talk to yourself about how you are feeling (be it generally or in relation to something specific) enables people to experience a sense of release, a lightening of a particular load and it often brings clarity in terms of understanding themselves and finding a way forward.
There are many coping mechanisms that humans deploy – some are conscious and others occur unconsciously.
Narcissism is one such coping mechanism and it is a powerful and invariably hugely effective, although its effectiveness does depend on the school of the narcissist and which particular outcome one is having regard to. The outcome of our narcissism is something that I shall address in a separate article.
Narcissism must maintain the construct (the false self) and imprison the creature (the true self). Collectively this is the Self-Defence of the Narcissist. This Self-Defence is achieved through the The Prime Aims(fuel, character traits and residual benefits).
Central to this Self-Defence and the achievement of The Prime Aims is control. The narcissist must at all times have control of his or her environment and the people within that environment which of course includes you. Whether you are a stranger, an acquaintance, a friend, a colleague, a relative or a romantic partner. Whether you are a neighbour, a date, sister or brother, that man from the corner store or fiancée – you come within the fuel matrix of the narcissist and you have to be subjected to the control of the narcissist.
This control has to be exerted second by second of each and every day. Every passing moment must be owned and governed by the narcissist. We must exert control all around us, this has to be complete and total as if the very clouds were tethered by us. Why is that?
Because once upon a time the narcissist did not have control.
That lack of control meant the narcissist felt powerless, weak, vulnerable and exposed.
The combination of a genetic predisposition and the imposition of this lack of control created narcissism as the coping mechanism. These two ingredients combined and gave ‘birth’ to narcissism as a means of coping with the world, with the lack of control that the world causes for individuals. Many people have no issue with this lack of control, others have alternative coping mechanisms and then there is us – the narcissists. Around one in six of the human population of this planet became narcissists in order to cope with this loss of control.
Narcissism allows the imposition of control through manipulation. The imposition of control allows us to achieve the Prime Aims. The achievement of the Prime Aims allows our Self-Defence and thus we survive and we thrive.
Narcissism is a coping mechanism.
People believe that abuse is theingredient in the formation of a narcissist. It is an ingredient, yes, but there are two ingredients in the formation of our kind. The first ingredient is the genetic predisposition, if you will this is the fertile soil which provides the basis for the narcissism to grow and flourish. The second ingredient is the lack of control (of which abuse is part of that lack of control) and this is the ‘seed’ which is placed in the fertile soil of the genetic predisposition and thus narcissism ‘grows’ as the coping mechanism. For some, the soil is there but no seed ever arrives and thus no narcissist. For others, there is no soil but there is the seed, but again with one essential ingredient missing, there can be no narcissism.
Genetic predisposition plus lack of control (at a formative stage of life) equals narcissist.
What does this lack of control (at a formative stage of life – i.e. childhood) look like?
- Abuse. Whether it is physical, emotional, sexual or psychological, any form of abuse towards us amounts to a lack of control. We could not defend ourselves against the abuse and therefore this is a lack of control, over ourselves and over those who meted out abusive harm towards us. The abuse is an act of commission – we were beaten, molested sexually, told we were useless, insulted etc.
- Isolated. Whether this was being locked in a cupboard under the stairs, prevented from playing with other children, kept apart from other family members, not allowed to participate in group activities of any nature, given silent treatments and treated as if we did not exist, isolating and ostracising us in some form again constituted a lack of control. We were not able to control our own interactions, someone else did this for us and to our detriment. We were controlled by another and thus lacked control.
- Neglect. Whilst there may not have been abusive acts of commission , there are abusive acts of omission. Therefore we were not given a safe environment, we were not taught effectively (be it about ‘facts’, relationships, behaviour, responsibility), we were not emotionally supported, we were not fed, clothed or protected, we were not shielded from an abuser of commission and/or we could roam where we wanted. Once again we were denied control over ourselves because we were not provided with the assets, resources and tools to achieve effective control over our lives and this neglect (lack of control) exposed us to hurt, pain, disease, injury, loneliness and/or acts of abuse through commission.
- The Golden Child. Everything we did was lauded and praised. It was invariably held up as a glowing and shining example of brilliance, even when it was not or the praise was excessive for a valid achievement. This meant we lacked control in the sense of earning achievements in a valid fashion. We had greatness thrust upon us without being ready for it, without having earned it and without appreciating it. Everything came to us too easily and this also amounted to a lack of control. We had no control over the outcome from our endeavours, we felt no compulsion to achieve and apply endeavour because whatever we did (bad, mediocre or good) was met with accolade, praise and the lavishing of ‘how brilliant’. We were denied the ability to control our own destiny.
- Shifting Sands. Where we experienced Shifting Sands we had a lack of control because the environment around us at that formative stage lacked constancy. One day the sun shone and the next day, even though everything else appeared to stay the same to us, there was a thunderstorm. On Monday our painting was declared to be ‘Rembrandt in the making’ (a la Golden Child) and by Friday our painting ‘was the work of a moron wielding a potato for a paintbrush’. The application of black and white thinking by the aggressor created an uncertain environment, one of push and pull, idealisation and devaluation and we had no control whatsoever on which version was going to appear to us. There was a lack of control in our lives through uncertainty, unpredictability and those shifting sands.
- B Graders. ‘It’s good but not good enough.’ ‘You can do far better.’ ‘You are not trying hard enough.’ ‘You are letting yourself down but moreover you are letting me down.’ These phrases and those similar to it encapsulate the loss of control felt by those who are ‘The B Graders’. Each time the hill was climbed and the summit anticipated, another hill suddenly appeared. The effort was okay, decent enough, acceptable but never that which met with approval. Keep going, learn more, be faster, swim stronger, climb higher, shine brighter. There was no control because we were never allowed a moment to settle, to cherish that which had been achieved and to reflect. We could not establish our own parameters of achievement and satisfaction but instead we were always beholden to the standards of another which ultimate proved to be unobtainable standards and thus we had no control.
- The Facsimile. We were shaped to be precisely like the aggressor. Sometimes this was entirely at the behest of the aggressor and sometimes we saw how this individual behaved and decided ‘I want that power also’ (usually unconsciously but sometimes, such as was the case for me – consciously). Whilst you may think a conscious decision to copy the aggressor and thus seize power was a form of control, it was not – this was actually a product of the already establishing narcissism and thus a symptom rather than a cause. Where the aggressor caused us to be moulded just like them – forming our opinions, our views, our behaviours, our likes and dislikes, what we wore, what we ate, where we went, what we did and in some instances alongside this there was an unconscious decision to mimic and copy those behaviours and characteristics, we were once again denied control.
Thus, whether we came from an impoverished background, a gilded background, a seemingly run-of-the-mill background, any of those environments had the potential to cause a lack of control in our lives. Take this lack of control and add it to the genetic predisposition and thus our coping mechanism of narcissism was given birth to.
Narcissism became our way of coping with the world.
Narcissism allowed us to exert control.
A lack of control equates to a lack of power.
A lack of control equates to being vulnerable.
A lack of control equates to being weak.
A lack of control equates to being worthless, meaningless and unimportant.
When we lack control, we start to fade and will no longer exist.
A lack of control now returns us to the lack of control then.
This must never happen for too long and thus we were formed from this lack of control adding to our genetic predisposition and in order to survive and thrive we must never, ever lack control for if this persists, well, then, it ends.
We must have absolute control. And that means absolute control over you, him, her, them but most of all YOU.
95 thoughts on “To Control is to Cope : Narcissism and Its Creation”
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Suicide in Trenches
I knew a simple soldier boy
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.
In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
No one spoke of him again.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you’ll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
Siegfried Sassoon
Excellent piece of work HG.
Yes indeed we are all trying to survive in this world. The way we all are is a coping mechanism.
I learned from my experiences how to control my emotions. I can choose when I want to feel and when not to. I can turn them on and off. I do not like emotions as they make me weak, so prefer not to feel them.
I remember what it was like to love, I remember those butterflies in my stomach. I sometimes envy lovers walking past hand in hand, looking deep into each other’s eyes. I had this once. Then it died. Someone ripped my heart out and all that I have left is an empty chest. Numb. Empty.
Sometimes the pain does come. In one massive tidal wave. Then it goes and the sea is calm once more.
I can see emotions on people’s faces. I can sense how they feel. It is bizarre.
Mr. Tudor, you write in this article that Narcissism must maintain the construct (the false self). Are you saying that the construct/false self/narcissist are all one in the same? Am I understanding that correctly?
The construct and the false self are the same thing and a major part of the narcissist and the sole part of what the outside world sees.
Well as William Shakespeare said…..
“All the world is a stage, And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts”
Just have to make sure that the mask doesn’t slip!
Thank you for your response, Mr. Tudor.
HG, you wrote:
“The construct and the false self are the same thing and a major part of the narcissist and the sole part of what the outside world sees.”
In case of malicious hoovering, I still see the construct?
I get the feeling the N2 doesn’t care about keeping the elevation for me (only sometimes, it’s fluid) because it doesn’t give a shit, what I see. And sometimes I have the impression, that it reveals itself on purpose (it hurts me and destroys my illusion, especially my concept of good and the world). As if he was mocking me.
Hi Joa.
I can’t speak for Mr. Tudor but this is how I understand it. Every action from the narcissist is a manipulation to gain the Prime Aims. These manipulations can be benign or malign. So if the narcissist is beating us with its fists or taking us on a spectacular vacation, its still the construct we see. These things are done to get fuel from us. The narcissist doesn’t care how it gets fuel as long as it gets it.
The way I understand is that the piece we don’t see is the true self/creature and we never get to see that.
Joa and JB,
Am I afraid of him? I’m afraid of him when he makes gestures as if he’s going to really hit me. He hasn’t really hit me before, meaning…punched me in the face, the nose, made me bleed or broken any bones. He’s punched me in the arms before, when he was annoyed at me, it left a bruise. I disregarded it as abuse before because it wasn’t that painful. He usually rants and rages when he’s mad and I stay out of arm’s reach. It’s still a difficult decision for me because it’s what I’m used to and it felt normal to me. How screwed up is that?
I got away from my ex husband, a while ago, Joa. I got away from him because he threatened to drive us off a cliff. I reached my limit after that and made a run for it that night. We didn’t share a house, kids, nothing,but bills and a car.i ran to a friend’s, ordered a moving van, his parents helped me get out and I never went back to him. We meet in a public place once, to talk. While we were talking, I noticed a serious cut on his arm. He told me he did it with a box cutter and he did it because I wouldn’t talk to him a few days before we met up in public place. That was another sign for me to not go back to him. I didn’t. I left and stayed gone. Divorced him and he still tries to reach out to me once every couple years. He creates accounts on Facebook and message requests me. He says it’s him in the message. I delete and block.
Asp Emp,
I literally got my results yesterday and I think an hour before our consultation. I was still processing the knowledge when I talked with HG. I was just stunned, probably looked like a deer caught in headlights…duh, what do I do face…..I did tell him I was scared and concerned because of what happened last time when I tried to leave and then I told him what happened…..I’m concerned about going through it again. I could hardly focus on work today, I was just so deep into my head. I talkedLto my best friend and she was honest with me. She told me to think on it, decide what I want to do and we can make plans for it. I already thought that far, just the details escape me because my damn emotions keep making my head hurt and fuzzy. I know yesterday my husband suspected something because he came home early and then asked me why I was down. He even acted super nice, which made me want to cry because I feel like an asshole and I’m doubting myself. I feel like the selfish one, the narcissist and HG told me I’m not the narcissist, so I take comfort in that. At least I have that fear checked off. I’m just a mess, basically, a mess. I’m trying to pretend I’m fine and I’m not, I’m no actor, that’s for sure. I’m direct and upfront and I’m terrible about keeping my feelings down. They bubble up like a burp. Just pops right up, hello everybody, this is how I feel today….so annoying….especially when I’m like, shut the hell up, no one wants to know how you feel….if it’s not my emotions, than it’s my tattletale facial expressions….if I manage this escape, it’ll be because I put a bag over my head and a sock in my mouth. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks. I have two dogs I’d have to travel with, I can’t leave them behind. One is an elder dog. I’m not sure if he’d hurt them, but I’m not taking the chance. I feel scattered brained right now, but I did just find out yesterday. The shock of it is still there. I keep thinking maybe I answered wrong the narc detector and I go back and look at the answers….and no, they’re accurate. I think on all the behaviors I saw and suspected him of being a narc. It clicks.
HG, my husband wanted me to tell you something, but I’ll tell you in email. All the explosion of temper makes sense and I thought I was the narc because one, he told me I was, two, my mother used to call me selfish and a taker, and three, I felt like I was being cold-hearted trying to leave him last year. The guilt I felt over that, especially when he tried so hard to make me happy. I make excuses for him and I feel obligated to him for being nice. I’m such a marshmallow for kindness. My head is not thinking straight.
Rebecca, recall HG’s article ‘The Narcissist’s Reality Gap’? No, you are not the narcissist – view it from another perspective – such incidences can occur to people like you – it had happened to me in the past – like a ‘tail-spin’ but at present, it is on-going because it has hit you like a bus. I do understand. You are in shock. Scared, because you do not know exactly how husband will react, him being a Middle Lesser Somatic.
Now, I will keep it very short – I was entangled with a Lesser – he verbally abused me, threatened to hit me once during the first 6 years. After I moved into my current home, he became more physical (bruising on arm; rape and so on). I endured that ‘thing’ for a further 2 – 3 years. I am sharing this here because of your involvement with the Lesser husband. Hence why I suggested, not knowing how he will react.
Have you explained in detail what you have said here about your physical (ie headaches / tension / insomnia / appetite etc), mental and emotional trauma with your best friend? Hence why you are struggling with your ET overriding your LT. Can your best friend join you in a call, or in person to speak with the local access of support (or even with HG in a consult?). Because you have explained the issue of not thinking clearly (high ET).
Again, you are not the “asshole”. Do not doubt yourself anymore. It is simply your increased level of narcissistic traits being activated while you are at home. Including the fact that you are struggling which will also keep you narcissistic traits at the level they are at presently.
Husband being “super nice” because his instincts (narcissism) are telling him that he needs to ensure he is not losing his control over you, so he asserts his control by being “super nice”. He has no emotional empathy, that is one of the hardest parts at present for you – emotionally and mentally. The type of narcissist he is, probably lacks the cognitive empathy?
“no one wants to know how you feel”. I understand why you say that, because you are really in a difficult and traumatic frame of mind at present (which is also affecting your emotions). HG, in my view, wants to know. He wants to know because, while you access his work, access his support, access his resources, he wants you to succeed in escaping, beating the narcissist, get a handle on your ET / LT and learn to manage your addiction to narcissism – that way, HG succeeds too.
Yes, take the dogs with you, or, if you can, place them with someone who can look after them until you have found safety for yourself. You saying “I am not taking the chance” (whether he would hurt your dogs) is a massive clue that you know he is capable of physical harm despite not necessarily having been witness to it before now. I am not trying to scare you even more (I know that you believe I am not).
If you are concerned that husband is going to come to the blog and read what you say here – maybe you can change your user name on KTN blog? And on YouTube, if you use the same email account? You can change your passwords to your email account(s); your phone; your computer / laptop?
You have the results of the NDC, you have no need to check it again. You may decide to retain them for now and keep them ‘locked’ away for some time. HG’s NDCs have been recognised by professionals, including, maybe, some law firms. In a way, they are evidence of a (confidential) personal profile of an individual.
As for husband telling you that he “wants to you to tell HG something” – fk that. In my view, husband is deflecting, passing the buck to you, making you feel ‘bad’ for having to confer with HG at all for any reason other than the fact husband is THE narcissist, not you. Husband will not agree with HG’s “diagnosis” of what he is. Even if the therapist tells husband, there will be a response / reaction of ignited fury and you are the IPPS who would be subject to that fury.
Coercive control is abuse in itself. That includes gaslighting, blame-shifting, exploding in anger at you etc.
Now, remember, you get angry because you are at “war” with a narcissist in your supposedly safe and secure environment. Your anger derives from childhood abuse. You have that diagnosed as CPTSD / PTSD by the therapist. This makes you a vulnerable adult, susceptible to abuse.
What was it that made you come to KTN blog? Was it your mother? Or was it also husband? Or did you realize about husband after reading a bit of HG’s work? If that is the case, then, your shock is bound to be more a massive WTF.
I believe you are really a lovely person underneath all of that “front” that you are currently being “forced” to display in front of other people ie at work, in the community etc (but you show your true self to your friend, and I think, here too 🙂 ). You have your ‘core’ characteristics and they show, ie your humour (giggling here 🙂 ); your ‘ballsy’ demeanour (that is a natural part of you, when it is not being highlighted by your narcissistic traits but is being “heightened” at present).
Again, I am sorry I can only be ‘here’ on KTN blog for you. I know you will take and accept any support that is offered to you, including from people who say they cannot hug you in person, as long as that support is ‘spoken’ with you (and not at you). Hang in there, Rebecca. You can and will achieve freedom, you have it in you. At the start it will be fkg difficult but you will get what you truly well deserve. Ok? I’ll send this with my thoughts on you xx
HG, thank you for moderating. I know you understand, thank you for that, for Rebecca, myself and others that you are helping. xxx
Asp Emp,
Thanks for reassuring me that I’m not a narcissist, HG reassured me too (Thanks HG) and you’re right, my emotions are too raw right now to allow me to plan in detail. I spoke with my best friend and my therapist, after speaking with HG. I’m going to need help with planning, with my emotions being so high, these annoying headaches I keep getting now and being too close to the problem for me to solve it on my own. I’m usually such a good problem solver for friends, but useless for myself right now. What I’m feeling right now? I’m still shocked that my suspicion was correct and I am like, WTF? I’m feeling fear because I’m afraid of failing and being caught trying to get away, afraid how I’m going to financial afford to leave and not screw myself in the process, afraid of lawyer cost, keeping the house, losing the house, stay here or move far away….just everything running in my mind and then the fear gets overwhelming and then I shutdown emotionally and mentally, and then I’m useless for solving my own critical issues. I’m really at a loss here, it’s why I reached out to HG, my best friend and my therapist. I need help and guidance, and I’m feeling bad for having to ask for help. I have a mortgage, cars and other possessions that have to be divided up and run through court…..this is going to be so stressful and emotionally difficult. I’m having another oh fk! moment….I wouldn’t know where to begin, a chicken with its head cut off has a better sense of direction than I do right now ,with my emotions like they are right now.
Hello Rebecca 🙂 thank you for your response. I understand what you mean when you say that it is easier for you to assist friends than when it comes to yourself – I have found that within myself. Now, I understand some more about the ‘self-worth’ that you mentioned previously. Do you think it was partly because of the ‘conditioning’ that was ‘instilled’ in you, or, is it a part of your nature (ie stems from your empath ‘make-up’?). I really ought to get my EDC done!
I understand your shock. It can be similar to someone dying. In some way, it is like that, because you have ‘removed’ your lens of ‘not knowing’ to lens of ‘knowing’ what he is.
I understand your fears. These fears are genuine concerns, of which, some are very difficult ones to navigate. A lot of people who have used HG’s work have been there and succeeded. You will too. It may seem a wrong thing for me to say, but, consider that you are young and have got a good analytical head on your shoulders – those are your additional strengths.
Keep talking with HG, your best friend and therapist. And on here, when you can.
Do not think, or feel, bad for asking for help. I am terrible at it myself, partly because of the way I am and also because of life’s experiences.
I do not know much about Laws in US when it comes to divorce / possessions and so on. You have got a massive undertaking here and it will be sorted out. Maybe ask your best friend to search around for divorce lawyers and ones that are narcissism aware, so that you are not observed doing this research at home and your friend is not emotionally ‘charged’ up as you are presently?
Have you considered an application to the AAF? You may need to ask for financial support to obtain ie the court and the divorce assistance packages – your friend can help you compose the application (no more than 500 words is needed, I ensured that mine ‘met’ the criteria). The link is https://narcsite.com/angel-assistance/ I do not know whether this can include audio / email consultations with HG.
Your friend can listen in to the assistance packages with you, so that she has a better idea in which ways she can help you.
I wonder whether you would be ok about having your friend attend a consult with you & HG to discuss initial list of things to do ie mortgage arrangements and so on – maybe make this a financial based consult?
I know you would help others in a similar position as you, but, right now, it is all about you. Ok? Do not feel guilty for reaching out, asking for financial support, asking for emotional support, asking for anything in real terms.
Alright, I’ll post this now. You can do this, you will achieve freedom. Do not give up. I know it won’t be easy. Stay strong. I am right here. Xx
Rebecca, I recalled this video, link attached. https://narcsite.com/2021/01/06/this-mindset-equals-victory/ To briefly explain, we are advised to call the narcissist ‘thing’ as we are “viewed” as a ‘thing’ to the narcissist – inanimate objects; appliances; all sorts of derogates because of the lack of emotional empathy. I thought about this video very late last night, well after I sent my last response to you. I suppose it can be likened to dunking oneself into cold water. It is similar to a reverse psychology, I suppose. I think it may help you in some way, as a form of detaching, if you can understand? Thinking of you, Rebecca xx
Asp Emp,
I’ve known him for 21 years and I’ve built a life with him, house, cars, dogs, good memories, bad memories, connections to family and friends….it’s going to be a struggle for me and I tried to leave last year and I got roped back in with the marriage counseling play. I don’t have any immediate family left and my Aunts, Uncles and cousins don’t understand narcissist behaviors and they like my husband. I got detached from my husband last year, I worked at it by recalling his meaness to me and keeping them all in the front of my head and it worked really well, so well in fact that I got detached from my dogs and friends. I don’t know what I did, but I felt a wall between my heart and everyone else. I felt dead inside, it’s like I went deep inside myself and slept. It was very disturbing to myself to feel that numb. I have since got back my attachment to my dogs and friends, but not to my husband. He’s still on an island away from my heart. I feel bad for feeling numb towards him. I still don’t know how I managed it. I guess I broke the bond there by keeping his abuse in the front of my mind. The attachment isn’t an issue, I barely feel attachment to him now, just guilt and obligations and empathy of causing him pain. I need so much help here. The plan has to work, it just has to this time. I appreciate you Asp Emp and HG for your help.xx
Asp Emp,
Forgot to mention, I have a consultation scheduled with HG next week. I’m going to see if I can get one this week, but I doubt it HG books up quickly. If I can get these migraines under control I just might be able to function better.
Rebecca,
I read about your NDC results. I am so sorry. Makes sense that it would be so overwhelming for you. 💗
“I’m trying to pretend I’m fine and I’m not, I’m no actor, that’s for sure. I’m direct and upfront and I’m terrible about keeping my feelings down. They bubble up like a burp. Just pops right up, hello everybody, this is how I feel today….so annoying….especially when I’m like, shut the hell up, no one wants to know how you feel…”
You remind me of my rl empath friend. She is very similar to you, she cannot stop her emotions from showing (although she’s getting better at it, she reads HG’s work). She just has to get it out, whereas, I tend to stuff emotions. And I am a problem solver.
I realize when she and I are talking, and I feel the urge to help her solve whatever problem she is having that day – that sometimes I need to just repress that urge and let her vent. Fortunately, I am a good listener.
Normally, I would launch into problem solving solutions (they’re all here anyway, on the blog, etc.) Maybe you don’t need to solve anything just yet, maybe it’s too raw? There are a lot of good listeners here, and HG too.
Just don’t vent to the narcissist.
Thinking of you.💜
WhoCares,
Thanks for your support. I wrote my response to Asp Emp,right above this comment. You can read it and it applies to you too, in regards to answering your questions. My head is hurting again, so sorry I can’t write a long reply to you. Thanks for your understanding.
WhoCares, thank you for being here for Rebecca. I understand that you managed to get through such a process yourself and you have the actual experience, one that I did / do not have (ie divorce, dividing property etc). I appreciate you communicating with Rebecca on her situation. Thank you for that 🙂
Asp Emp and WhoCares,
I had my appointment with my therapist yesterday and things weren’t all bad, but not all good either. He doesn’t believe my husband is a narcissist, but he was willing to agree his behaviors are not acceptable. I even pointed out examples of when he showed lack of empathy, gaslighting, deflecting blame, haughtiness, grandiose idea of his intelligence, belittling me, threatening me, ridiculing me etc He said, why didn’t you tell me he was like that? I said, I told you his behaviors were bad and him being right next to me, made me uncomfortable to go into detail. My husband also already told me we didn’t need to go into detail, that we weren’t getting along. He doesn’t need to know the details and like a good little toaster I didn’t go into detail. To be fair to myself, I hadn’t yet found HG’s work and had no idea I was living with one and had a traumatic experience with another. Anyway, at least I have the therapist willing to see the behaviors as bad. He talks with my husband tonight. I’m going to be out,while he’s in his appointment with the therapist. It’s going to be another nerve-wracking night. The therapist will not tell him HG’s narc results. He’s going to tell him, your wife doesn’t want to put up with your bad behaviors.straighten up or bye bye wife. I’m sure he’ll say it differently, but it’s how I feel. I’m not going to let him, or anyone else make me feel less than zero.
Rebecca, so sorry for delay in replying – I had not seen it until now. 21 years is a long time. I do understand the “detaching” from others, including your dogs. I liked the way you described it “slept”, I think it does happen to some people who had been through so much and needed to simply ‘hibernate’ as a form of protection? It is interesting that maybe for some, they do not realise they have “reached” that stage but others can become ‘aware’ of doing it, or it happening. I was half aware and half not, otherwise I would not have recalled what it felt like but at the time, I could not ‘see’ it.
You should not feel guilty at all really because it is similar to suggesting (to yourself) that it is ok he is a narcissist.
There is a two-way of looking at the emotional “detachment” – either you have a) ‘detached’ because he “made” you stay when you wanted / needed to get out (a year ago) and so an element of feeling “trapped”, resulting in anger?
or b) the experience of last year was specifically bad to the point where the detachment occurred to the point of protecting your ‘true’ self, effectively ‘blocking’ (repressing) your emotions where they may come to the fore at some point in the future?
It is difficult when you have family members who do not understand, never mind ‘see’ behind his facade because he had instinctively kept that hidden from them.
In regard to your comment (below) about the therapist. Oh dear. “does not believe he is a narcissist”. Wow. The truth is, you did not originally know exactly how to describe (label) the behaviours, now you do.
Does the therapist actually realise that any “meetings” with husband will not result in husband changing, never mind ‘seeing’ his behaviours, because a narcissist cannot truly “understand” due to a lack of emotional empathy?
Therapy will not work for husband, but it will work for you. That is what your therapist needs to understand.
What happened after husband’s “session” with therapist?
The concern is, that the therapist does not believe husband is a narcissist yet HG has determined husband is.
How do you feel now, Rebecca? Again, apologies for late response. Easier said than done, stay on the path xx
Asp Emp,
Where to begin? There’s so much going on and I’m working on figuring out the best plan. To answer the first question about last year. I worked myself into getting detached because I knew that was the only way I could leave, take my feelings out of the equation, so I worked on keeping his abuse of me in front of my mind and focused on that. I also focused on telling myself that he can’t give me really what I need, which is emotional support, emotional understanding and real love. I managed to do it so well, that I detached from everyone around me. I used to do it as a kid, when I knew we were moving again, dad was in the Navy, and I knew I would be leaving my friends. I’d emotionally pull away from them, a bit at a time. I do the same thing when a pet gets deathly sick and nothing will help and its just a waiting game of when they’ll pass….I pull away from them to protect my heart from breaking. I’m aware of doing it and I just learned to do it early in childhood. I can do it again, but it’s a process and I’ll have to start from level 1 with husband because I opened up myself again to him. I don’t even know what I’m doing anymore. I just want to be safe, is that too much to ask??
I’m more mad at myself now, than him. Mad at myself for not just doing it and stepping off the cliff into the unknown, but that unknown was so frightening to me and I so worried about failure that I grasped onto a chance of not having to jump. It’s shameful and cowardly of me,but it’s the truth. I grabbed that excuse not to jump, just to feel some semblance of safety,eventhough it was a fake safety. I almost had it, but I got scared. Damn my fear, it keeps me from taking off. I’m afraid. What do I do when I’m fighting myself??
And my therapist said, he can’t tell me to stay with him, or leave him. It’s up to me. No advise or help there. This sucks.
Rebecca, thank you for clarifying further on the emotional detachment ‘technique’ that you learned to do.
RE: your words “I’ll have to start from level 1 with husband because I opened up myself again to him” – did you do this recently ie around the time when husband went to therapist alone?
I’d be very surprised if anyone says that they do not “want to be safe”. So, no, is it not too much to ask. It depends what one wants safety against / from. Mental; emotional; physical pain?
It is not shameful, nor cowardly for not having taken the chance when it came to it. Husband ‘conned’ your ET into staying by using the therapist “excuse” as a reason to keep you ‘tied’ to him.
You used the word “failure”. A lot of people can ‘relate’ to that. Don’t see it as failure. You have a lot going for you, going forward. Ok, your mental and emotional health is not necessarily in the best of places (addiction to narcissism not yet quite ‘reined’ in because still ‘attached’ to husband) and the house being a place of what you think is ‘sanctuary’ (I say think, with your current ET / LT as it stands). You are young and that is a plus at this point in your life. I am not necessarily saying that age is a ‘block’ for people to start a new life.
Why not write down what you think is holding you back (failure, fear etc) and another list of what you want to achieve in life. Sometimes, I found that “method” useful in the past, so that is is not ‘milling’ around in your head.
From what I understand, your therapist does not have a lot of experience with clients / patients that are narcissists, so how would he know how living with a one is actually like? Are you paying this therapist to do his job? If you are, maybe consider spending that money on consults with HG instead? Ok, HG is not a therapist on paper but he is the best one you’d get and he’d guide you into the right direction. Your existing therapist probably does not truly understand the mental / emotional impact of narcissism, never mind understanding those that have it.
You know you are seeking emotional ‘security’ that gives you the ‘safety’ and you know that husband cannot ‘meet’ those needs of yours.
I totally understand the ‘procrastination’ (fear / failure).
There is clearly no communication between you and husband in regard to the therapy – I know about confidentiality but this is completely different when it comes to work related ‘confidentiality’ as compared to a marriage / relationship.
Why would you wish to continue to subject yourself to being in a marriage that is clearly not working, emotionally (and probably mentally) one-sided?
You have the strength to do this. In my opinion, the unknown is better than what you have at present. In time, you would look back and think ‘thank fk for that’ that you made the changes. For yourself. People only have one life to live it.
“you have nothing to lose and everything to gain”. Being free of the influence of narcissists of my past is really liberating. It is well worth it. Xx
Asp Emp,
Forgot to answer, what happened after husband’s therapy session? Nothing. I don’t think the therapist even said anything to him and if he did, my husband had no response to me about it. WTF? Is how I feel right now. So now it’s go for the cliff into the unknown, or stay and risk things getting worse? Will it be worse than the cliff into the unknown? There’s what I don’t know. 😑😬🥴😫
Asp Emp,
I opened up to him during his time with the therapist and I had hope it would work out, and then I started noticing the behaviors and I started questioning what I was noticing. I did a narc detector on him, after talking to HG about what I’ve noticed.
I’m disappointed in my therapist response to the narc detector results and he’s told me before, on several occasions that I know more about narcissism than he does, a licensed therapist….so may thought was how can he say if my husband isn’t one when he doesn’t know much about the subject? It’s got me going crazy here.
I’ve overthonked everything to the point that I can’t think straight. You’re right, my emotional and mental state is all over the place. I’m functioning on autopilot, much like I did during childhood and after narc 1 from last year and now narc 2 is still right here.
My fear is what is keeping me stuck, fear of failing at leaving, surviving after I’m out, fear of regret and fear of harm or having police involved….just everything right now. Is so heavy on my mind and I’m getting little support from my therapist and I’m getting madder and madder about him….I only have two friends who have been through what I’m going through, one lives down south, the other is busy and stressing her own things and i don’t want to burden her with my mess too. I’m overwhelmed and I can’t think what else you asked about. Sorry xx
Rebecca, thank you for sharing more about that therapist. It is not for me to suggest, but I will. Would your therapist consider having a chat with HG (via the usual consult routes) just to get more information about narcissism from HG directly? Maybe the therapist needs to understand about narcissism in order to help you with therapy, if you feel it would assist you on your mental & emotional well-being improvement. As you already know husband will not change, so consider saving the costs of the therapist for yourself only, or just invest that in HG instead? Only you can make the final decision.
I believe you are being honest with your therapist but, he needs to be more receptive of the fact husband is a narcissist, as he has been determined as one.
Some medical professionals have “difficulty” in having a client “inform” them about a subject they know or understand very little about. Other medical professionals are very appreciative of receiving information that they may not have been made aware of as part of their career. Basically, two groups – a) want to know, or, b) do not want to know.
Where your therapist ‘sits’, I cannot answer.
I can totally understand your anger. You were in shock, still are, to a degree, but it’s varying from one emotion to another. It is like a bereavement ‘process’ that people go through, it is more or less similar – shock, then anger, then acceptance. You accept husband is a narcissist. But, you have not accepted it within your emotions & thoughts as yet (ET / LT out of sync). These emotions, thoughts, ET, LT – you may have to ‘deal’ with those later because while you remain at home, it makes it so much more ‘cloudy’ to be able to work it through properly and obtain management of ET / LT.
Because you have mentioned ‘harm’ and having police involved, this is something I think you are better off having a consult with HG about ASAP and then consider seeking confidential advice from a local women’s shelter group, they should be able to help you. So that you can ensure that you are safe (prevention measures) from potential harm. It is classed as ‘safeguarding’ in UK. You are a vulnerable adult.
The women’s group may have access to and / or offer support in regard to some legal costs, or point you into the direction of accessing that kind of support.
https://tudorhg.gumroad.com/l/quCkX HG’s ‘Fear and the Empathic Victim’. Maybe you could consider obtaining this if you have not done already?
I honestly do not know how long the whole process would / could take from separating; divorce etc, only HG can answer that and give you guide on a time-scale.
One thing for sure, you need to decide where you would like to be, do you want to stay in the same town, or have a completely new start somewhere else?
You won’t fail. You owe it to yourself not to. I know and I understand that there are major and difficult decisions you face. Yes, it is very scary to take that big step, in time, you will not regret it. xx
Asp Emp,
I’m planning on listening to HGs advice because 1) He knows about narcissism, whereas my therapist only knows a page in a psychology book that list 10 traits of narcissism and wants to base all his opinions of narcissism on that one page 2) HGs gotten more people away from narcissists than my therapist 3) HG was more open to my opinion and thoughts than my therapist, who seemed to completely dismiss my thoughts and feelings on narcissism 4) I didn’t like how my therapist dismissed HGs assessment of my husband simply because he’s not licensed therapist, I thought that was pretty haughty of him 5) HG was more interested in my plans and thoughts, than my therapist 6) HG was open to letting me decide what I want to do, without judgment on his part, whereas my therapist thinks I’m over focused on narcissism and I’m just calling everyone a narcissist. He thinks I need to step away from learning more about narcissism. I say it’s my life and I do what I decide to do, not be dictated to by someone who knows less than I do about narcissism, about learning too much on narcissism. I’m pretty mad at my therapist for trying to control what I do. I’m a bit concerned about what he said to HG and whether or not HG is mad at me for what my therapist said. I’m too emotional right now to think straight anymore. I keep getting migraines. I need to calm down and gather my wits and stop being an emotional wreck. I will gain control of myself, I promise.
The application of logic to make a determination with regard to who is providing you with the tools to make the right decisions for you.
No, I am not mad at you for your therapists’s failings.
Thank you, HG, for your words of encouragement to Rebecca. 🙂
Rebecca, wow. I mean, wow. You have listed so many observations of your own and applied your own comparisons as to where your therapist is not “meeting” your requirements that you need from an individual who is supposed to be an independent that you (at present) had a need to be dependent on (ie a reliable source of support).
You said it “….at my therapist for trying to control what I do”.
In my opinion, he has ‘devalued’ you as a patient; not good at listening to you; not necessarily empowering you in the way that you needed. He is not necessarily giving you a voice to be heard without prejudice (as a vulnerable adult, currently). So, ask yourself, is that therapist right for you?
HG’s words to you “your therapist’s failings” is key.
I say, ditch the therapist (waste of your time, emotional and mental energy, causing more upset for you than is considered healthy). Sorry, I did not suggest this sooner because I could see that you were quite upset, the timing and wording has to be right 🙂
HG is your man in your case. By all means, have as many consults with him you need to get you on the right path, to guide you into the next steps to make your break to freedom.
And, in my opinion, no-one can ever “learn too much about narcissism”. No-one. In fact, in my view, it is more about understanding ourselves in a world where narcissism exists and how we ‘react’ to it within ourselves and around other people ie in society.
You’re emotional because you have experienced quite a bit of trauma in a short space of time (over emotional attachments that have gone on for many years). So, give yourself a break, give yourself some credit because you have got this far and you are not a quitter. In my opinion, you have more or less always been in control of yourself, just had a number of side-ways and back-wards “walking” (mentally and emotionally) – accept that you will experience these from time to time, which is (in my view), normal and understandable.
You may be able to ask HG about these migraines as he may be able to offer guidance about calming mediation as a means of reducing the stress that contributes to them?
You can ‘look’ backwards but, walk forwards if you can understand? Keep communicating with us 🙂
About a consult with HG, this week, only one way to find out 🙂 Rebecca, just take your life back, it belongs to you xx
Rebecca, I am very worried, reading your posts lately. I know how looped you are 🙁
I see a big difference between your posts from a few months ago. From those present, I can only see a cry for help 🙁
Could you not pack your dogs and go to some quiet place to rest with your friend? For two weeks. Vacation. Just you and her + pets. There are various wonderful places that are suitable for people and animals.
Holidays are coming. There is an excuse.
A distance look might help you more than the taboos of therapists.
Are you afraid of him??? If so, what are you still doing there? Move on girl. Fear precludes any further relationship and endeavor. Impossible to do.
Plan your retreat slowly and meticulously, focus only on that and securing yourself, and then make a sharp cut.
—————–
I mentally walked away from N1 for 3 years (I slowly pulled away). At the end, I prepared for several months. I allowed this thought to mature (at the same time fighting it), secured a new life (I was building a nest) and imperceptibly removed things that were valuable to me (letters, souvenirs, personal items) from our home. Those whose absence he will not notice.
I disappeared suddenly. After the quarrel, I provoked. I packed my stuff in 10 minutes (not much left). We never met again, I didn’t let that happen. No flowers, no tears, no apologies, no force hugs, no insults and pokes.
After a few years, we renewed the electronic contact, that we have until today.
Late in the evening, on the day I disappeared from N1’s life, I met N2. Same day…
I was de-stressing myself by playing poker. He was playing great. He kept winning and winning… He treated the players with an excellent joke. He started a conversation, a lot of laughter, and then I “poured regret” on a complete stranger…
I don’t even know, when this poker took hold of my whole life.
Thank you, Joa 🙂
Yes, I was shaking when I wrote this. Are you satisfied?
I will not fall asleep today. Applause for me…
Rebecca, I have to add this – I wrote about myself unnecessarily.
I wanted to show, how I broke up with N1 after 11 years of relationship (of which 7 were very happy, and then only a downward gradient).
I got to the point with N2 unnecessarily. It has nothing to do with it and I also blew myself on a mine, which I now have to detonate safely, because the pressure is huge 🙂
And one more thing – instead of a “taboo”, it was supposed to be a “herd”. In my language, these words are spelled similarly (tabu-tabun).
I hope you will find strength within yourself, that you will come to stabilization.
Asp Emp,
I already sent HG an email about a consultation this week, waiting to hear back from HG. You’re going to find this ironic, but my husband tonight told me I need anger management. I couldn’t help it, I laughed and told him, I only get angry when you push me too far. He said, You have your dad’s temper, tough guy. He calls me tough guy when he sees me getting mad. He thinks it’s cute. I find it insulting, belittling and a one way ticket to getting punched in the nose. I hold back because I know it would start a fist fight and I have no desire to go that route where police will get involved, charges filed and who needs that mess? Not me, so I control myself, like my dad taught me. I don’t like it when my husband belittles me and he thinks my anger is the problem. Typical narc shit and my therapist doesn’t see that?? No wonder I’m going nuts….. My husband has seen me go off before, at him, because of his words to me…yeah, it was a strong reaction,but he knew what he was doing when he said, what he said about my dad. He knew it. I didn’t hit him, or harm him. I didn’t even threaten him. I yelled back at him, got in his face, like he did mine and gave him back his own medicine. I know that was dumb, but I’m human and can only take so much before I snap and react. I worry sometimes about an incident like that happening again and getting worse.
Rebecca, thank you for sharing an update. Husband is projecting / blame-shifting to you for what you both are experiencing at present. Ok, I see that Joa and WhoCares has responded to you to offer some support (thanks, ladies 🙂 ). I understand that you are now waiting on a consult with HG. Have faith in yourself, you can do this 🙂
Rebecca,
Punched in the nose? Has he been violent then? If he has, you have to get out. Your safety is the most important thing. Is there anywhere you can go safely? Xx
WhoCares,
Any advice you can give would be very appreciated. Thank you for reaching out. It’s means a lot to me. ❤
Rebecca,
I just saw this now. Sorry.
If you want my personal opinion, here it is:
Don’t do therapy with this individual.
Pack a bag and get out.
That’s just me, though.
But I have walked out on three narcissists, not only my ex.
If you want to plan, then plan with HG’s advice.
Asp Emp had two great suggestions:
1. ‘Fear and the Empathic Victim’s
And
2. Checking in with a local women’s shelter, just to touch base with them. At minimum, they will encourage you to do a ‘safety plan.’ They might refer you to some sort of victim’s services. But at least you will have reached out and made some local connections.
I reached out to crisis counseling services after escaping my ex because I was concerned about *his* mental well-being. Haha!
I was told by the intake worker “Well, you are here. You are my client and I have alarm bells going off for you.” (After I told her my story.)
You’re in my thoughts Rebecca 💜 – wishing you safety and peace of mind.
But that can only be achieved with physical distance from the narcissist.
WhoCares, thank you for responding to Rebecca. I am sorry to read that you have setbacks to deal with. Thank you for your acknowledgement of my suggestions 🙂
Thanks Asp Emp. My setback is time limited. And even though it impacted how I framed my reply, it doesn’t change my opinion that she should get out…even to get away temporarily to clear her head and not be caught up in his machinations and stewing in her emotions.
I understand, WhoCares. Yes, it is not an easy situation. I can relate very well when there is lack of genuine people within the local vicinity (ie not available face to face) and only online communications as a means of contacting someone / people to obtain support. Thank you, WhoCares 🙂
Rebecca,
I apologize if my advice was somewhat blunt and/or not very heartfelt.
But it is how I feel. (Dealing with some personal setbacks today.)
If it were me, I would GOSO and deal with all else, property etc., later…
Rebecca, I agree with WC, GOSO and NC are the immediate things to do. Deal with the rest later. You need to be safe. Once away from the narcissist, you will begin to think more clearly and be in a better place mentally to deal with what’s left to do. ❤
A Victor,
You said it better and more succinctly then I did.
I hope Rebecca is listening.
Thank you WC, at least we know she’s in the best place to be as she decides and does what she needs.
WhoCares and AV,
Thanks for your advice and concern. WhoCares, no worries, you’re fine. I got a lot to work out.
Rebecca,
“I got a lot to work out.”
Understood. 💜
❤
WhoCares, Joa, Asp Emp and AV,
Thanks for your advice, my biggest obstacle is my own self doubt and fear. No one I know understands what I’m going through and I’m done trying to explain it. They can think what they want, I’m the one who has to live my life. I have to decide what I do. Jump or not to jump?
Rebecca,
Yes, I hear you on the self doubt and fear.
“Jump or not to jump?”
Have you listened to Fear and the Empathic Victim?
(So if you said you have and I didn’t see it.)
You’re welcome Rebecca. I would not be a person to speak to your decision to jump or not jump, though in the previous comment to you that I made I did say GOSO and NC were the best first options. However taking such steps is always the individuals decision in my mind so I support whatever you decide you need to do. That said, I do understand the fear, overwhelming. And you are so right, you owe no one any explanation, glad to read that you realize that, it took me a really long time to get to that point. Anyway, all the best and we’re here as you need (and as HG moderates of course).
You’re welcome Rebecca.
WhoCares, AspEmp, JB, AV and Joa,
I contacted the right person today and working on plan, that’s all I’ll say on public blog, but thanks for your support. I’m sorry earlier WhoCares for not addressing your current setbacks….my mind was focused on planning and didn’t mean to dismiss your problems. I apologize for that. Xx Thanks again for the support. Xx
Rebecca,
I am just happy to hear that you are working on a plan!
Oops, I meant to say you’re welcome in this one Rebecca! So great to read you have a plan in mind!
Rebecca, that is good to read. Having a plan and access to people who understand (and can help) will be really good for you. Take care of yourself and I hope it all goes well for you xx
Rebecca, your yesterday’s words were balm on my soul! I didn’t have time to write back/translate right away, so just gave the signal by clicking “Like”.
Yes! Nobody will understand, what you are going through as well as you. Nobody knows your life as well as you do. Yes, you have to decide, what to do with your life, jump or not?
(I really liked that metaphor with a jump).
Therapists, people nearby, statements, advice, our words, are just tips for you. Nothing more.
You choose what’s best for you. Be selfish at the same time, I encourage you to do so 🙂
I am calm about you at the moment. I know you can handle, whatever decision you make.
Please, take care of yourself, in the meantime I read about the details of your current relationship…
I remember you describing your familly home, full of animals, your relationship with brother, and the military veterinarian dad. “I saw you”, how happy you run through the meadows and climb trees, how you take the air with your full breath and the sun shines on your face. This is how I “see” you. Hope you can get back to it (mentally). Yes, it should be done 🙂
Sounds like clarity is forming. You are taking action. Good for you! Elenor Roosevelt once said ( a revised version) no one can make you feel less unless you let them. Be strong! Swords up!
Harry Thompson ‘The Naughty Autie in Conversation with HG Tudor’.
After reading the conversation video that Harry and HG did, I completed the online test for PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance) and was able to obtain a score for myself.
I read a number of Harry’s short videos on his channel. They were very interesting and insightful. He talks about ‘invalidation trauma’ which is something I totally identified with, because of my Aspergers. This explains further on my need for reassurance and, to a degree, validation. Validation for my being what I am in the form of acceptance of my ‘quirks’, if you like, including my idiosyncratic sense of humour. Even now, if people don’t like it, that is their problem, not mine. Yet, I was made to feel ‘invalidated’ because I was told off, reprimanded for being ‘me’.
In regard to the PDA, I scored below the threshold to be considered to have PDA, yet I did score enough to assist / support (more by ‘confirming’) my somewhat aggressiveness towards systems that, in my view, are crap. Especially when that system did not work for me. For example, the medical system ie NHS, it’s doctors, mainly because they were not paying attention to what I said but I am not a medical expert so I was not able to ‘pin’ down what turned out to be something that should have been ‘picked’ up by the so called medical experts.
I admit that I do have an issue with authority, to a degree, because of how I was treated and brought up by my parental narcissist.
Now, I think it is fair for me to suggest that while narcissistic abuse from a young age does contribute to the formation of ACONs, whether they turn out to be narcissists, or empaths. Invalidation Trauma is something new I have learned about. I would go as far as to suggest that BOTH narcissists and **empaths do have this Invalidation Trauma as a result of CPTSD (Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder).
**empaths with parental (or peer) narcissists.
I would suggest that it is empaths who have a higher level of Invalidation Trauma that can attract narcissists, only to find that their relationship (ensnarement / entanglement) shows the ‘cracks’ a lot sooner than other narcissist / empath “relationships”. The unaware empath would not necessarily know why they are not given the validation by the narcissist, who also “demands” validation via machinations / manipulations.
The difference between narcissists an empaths who have Invalidation Trauma is whether **manipulations are used, how and when they are used. **This is something I believe is measurable and determined within HG’s EDC / TDC / NDC.
HG has made it clear that an empath does not have a hermetically sealed ‘self’. Yet, I would suggest that an empath with narcissistic trauma, would have CPTSD with an element of Invalidation Trauma and this probably is the ‘self’ within an empath that is the main ‘vulnerability’, the narcissist hermetically seals theirs. The difference being whether the individual has emotional empathy, which is further determined by looking at their behaviours (responses to anything and everything, basically). I think this would depend whether the empath ACON was mainly the Scapegoat, or the Golden Child.
In my opinion, the Golden Child has the opposite of invalidation trauma as they have the ‘idolised’ version. So they come across as spoiled, expecting things all the time (have their way too).
So my lower level of PDA and Invalidation Trauma is a combination of my Aspergers and narcissist muvver.
Thus, my “ability” to wind up the narcissist to the point where they are “forced” to either expend “additional” energy to assert their control over me. Hence the reason why the majority of the f*ckens in my past had more of a tendency to withdraw and issue Silent Treatments.
Because of what I have shared here, that MRN will never ever ‘hoover’ me. Because he knows he cannot control me. That Lesser (f*cken twat) “forgot” how I can erupt in anger and he seems to have “forgotten” the night I exploded at him. So, I am more likely to be hoovered by the Lesser, he can try but he will not get anything from me. They can still go and f*ck themselves.
I put my comment under this article because, in my view, Invalidation Trauma from a young age does cause someone to ‘form’ or resort to coping strategies.
Well, HG, thank you, once again, for such another ‘door’ of understanding that I was able to open and activate because of the conversation between you and Harry. I appreciate you even more now for this additional opportunity of finding further clarity about myself. Thank you in advance for moderating my comment xxx
Asp Emp,
Is this why I keep having to look to others for validation of my own self worth? Why I don’t feel attractive and find it awkward when others do find me attractive? This invalidation trauma from dealing with my narcissist mother. I know I have PTSD, most likely CPTSD and I’m ACON. This is interesting, could be the answer to my confusion about myself.
HG, what are your thoughts??
Rebecca, thank you for your response. I would suggest that you have a look at the videos I am referring to when I talked about it in my comment as above – they are very short (around 5 vids, approx 3 mins long each).
I was able to ‘identify’ invalidation trauma within myself because I was not permitted to be ‘me’ and develop / build up on the latent skills that I have ie I was encouraged by the lovely teachers at primary school in my art, I was also good at maths but it was not “appreciated” by muvver who did not “encourage” me in the same way she did my sister = validating my sister over me, hence I was always second / scapegoat. Had my father lived, I would have excelled at school in various subjects because he would have observed what I was good at and assisted me to achieve more than I did. He was my “validator”, my nurturer / protector, my mentor, etc. He made sure I obtained equipment etc for my deafness. Muvver did not even get me to all of the appointments in regard to my annual hearing aid checks etc.
Self worth (being good enough; worthy of love; belonging from others) is not the same as having confidence in accepting compliments from others.
I would suggest that you do have **CPTSD as a result of the narcissistic (mother) and physical (father) abuse you endured, and why you formed into an ACON. **CPTSD = results from repeated abuse / traumas, PTSD = results usually as a one off traumatic experience.
This is something I think is worth you taking into consideration. Your father ‘invalidated’ your feelings too. He abused you too, not just your mother. He also contributed to your CPTSD, whether he was a narcissist, or not.
What I am aware of is your high level of ET because of what you have been through recently, this can contribute to some confusion in some aspects about yourself? There are a number of ‘fogs’ that has impacted you as an individual, I will share with you that I was not able to clear all my ‘fogs’ at the same time, it was impossible.
As for your husband, have you had a confirmation as to what he is? I recall you saying that he does not understand what narcissism is. I did wonder if it was possibly a ‘denial / deflection’ on his part, or he really does not understand (because of a cognitive / neurodiversity other than narcissism)?. Again, it is not for me to say because I do not know your husband, his upbringing and so on – there is no need to share on here – as long as you discuss it with HG and your therapist. Maybe consider having the NDC done for your husband, just to rule it out one way or another, then you can take next steps, if necessary?
I ‘distanced’ myself (similar to No Contact) from people who knew MRN and me, as other people can contribute to the ‘cloudiness’ of the already muddled thoughts / emotions. It was a way of removing some of the ‘triggers’ (either temporarily, or permanently). Maybe consider that break you mentioned in an earlier comment and go back home for a bit? You may find that some of the ‘fog’ clears when you are not in the same environment, or not have the same ‘triggers’ around you.
“A Change is as Good as a Rest”.
In my opinion, you are someone who does not seek ‘validation’ from other people. You know your strengths, some of your **weaknesses, you have a strong sense of self. **weaknesses, there may be some that you may not be able to ‘see’ because of your ET / LT that is not quite at the level as required to be able to manage your addiction to narcissism (which is basically the same as CPTSD and why you have it).
I understand that your EDC provides information that assists you to better understand aspects of yourself? Have those to hand when you, if you do, go away on that break and re-read them?
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Rebecca. Do keep talking with us on the blog. Have faith in yourself, you are a strong woman and just need some guidance to get your mojo back on track 🙂 x
(thank you, HG for moderating x).
Asp Emp,
I’ll check out the videos you suggested. My self worth issue is related to people giving me compliments because I have a hard time seeing what they find attractive about me and that’s because my mother would tell me negative things about my appearance and it damaged my self esteem and mental image of myself. I hope that clears up what I meant. I’m working on my self esteem, it’s a bit hard because I have my husband criticizing my appearance too and I’m getting really pissed at him, that and he keeps calling me, tough guy, whenever I get mad and I’m trying real hard not to start punching him in the nose. I don’t need that kind of drama right now.
I already sent HG the narc detector on my husband, so just waiting on the results, anxiously waiting….I’m being good, even if I have to sit on my hands to keep from asking HG about it again….sorry HG….I’m terrible..
I’ve been desensitized myself by not leaving the environment, the LMR is gone, but I still work with the same people who knew him. I like the job and most of the people I work with, so I wasn’t willing to change and let LMR dictate my life or screw it up for me. I’m a fighter first and I refuse to give up where I’m at for him. Besides, exposing myself to the same environment makes me face it, build up a resistance to it and the pain lessens more from doing that for me. I might be odd that way, but the more I face it, the stronger I get to control my reaction to it. I hope that makes sense. I’m the type to just face it head on and bust through it. I handle negative things that way. I think that’s what caused the LMR to react by retreating. I wasn’t reacting to his abuse the way he thought I would. Surprise! LMR, I have a mouth on me too. Oops, didn’t see that coming. The LMR was a coward and a disappointment. I think my ET flares up because I’m still there, in the environment, but I’m building a thicker skin being here, that and I’m not leaving on his behalf. It’s that stubborn streak my mother would bitch about. I’m just coping the best way I know how. One day at a time and keep walking through hell, don’t stop and take pictures. Thanks Asp Emp for listening to me and encouraging me. 🙃❤❤
Rebecca, thank you for clearing up what you meant. I understand. How about telling your husband the following “no, that does not make sense” and leave it at that? He is obviously keeping your ET levels high and not giving you the space to ‘re-program’ it so that you can reduce that ET.
I think those videos may help in some way RE: the invalidation ‘part’. It made it so clear for me.
I am glad you have sent off the NDC. We can talk more on this when you get the results, if you decide to share about it. I am sure that HG understands your anxiety about it. I would be of a similar mindset.
The other thing is to remind yourself you have only been accessing HG’s work a short time in real terms. And, you have ‘processed’ a lot in that time frame.
RE: your last paragraph is self-explanatory in itself. Your words “exposing myself to the same environment makes me face it, build up a resistance to it and the pain lessens more from doing that for me. I might be odd that way, but the more I face it, the stronger I get to control my reaction to it. I hope that makes sense” – it certainly does. This “method” you are using works for you. The fact you are doing this physically (by attending work); processing it emotionally and mentally (by doing it your way) and also ‘re-programming’ how you approach / manage it is effective for you. The emotions have been taken out of the equation (to a degree, because you are still working on it), because that LMR has been “removed”.
Basically, you have given, in my opinion, a prime example of lateral, yet, parallel “description” of how I used / applied HG’s work – reading, processing, ‘exposing’ my repressed emotions / thoughts about my past, over time, the pain lessened. Thus, by removing some of those ‘repressions’ (layers of the onion, so to speak), it aids to release other memories ie the good ones.
RE: your words “One day at a time and keep walking through hell, don’t stop and take pictures” – absolutely. You clearly have a fighting spirit inside you and that is a real strength.
Thank you for your acknowledgement, you are more than welcome, Rebecca 🙂 xx
Asp Emp,
I had to think on my response to your comments on my dad. Maybe I need to clarify my dad and my mother’s relationship with each other first. My mother, I believe, was a Lower Midrange Victim Narcissist and my dad definitely had some Geyser Empath in him. He was emotional like me, but not as sensitive as me. My mother manipulated my dad. She would lie to him about what I did and said and she would cry while lying about me. He loved her and believed her, so he would get mad at me for “hurting her”, so I would get punished for it. It was usually the belt, sometimes a slap, one time it was a fist to the hip when I was sleeping. He thought he was punishing the bad behavior, he didn’t know she was lying. He grew up in a home that believed in spare the rod, spoil the child. It’s what he was taught. I can’t blame him for how he was raised. If he had known she was lying, he wouldn’t have done it. What I’m trying to say is, he was as much a victim as I was, in regard to my mother’s manipulations. He showed me affection and love for the majority of my childhood and according to HG’S works, he was the one thing that kept me from becoming a narcissist myself. I had everything else to create a narcissist, he was the added intervention I had that taught me love and empathy. I’m grateful to him for being there and loving me. I just wish he wasn’t so fooled by my mother. He was so in love with her that when she died, he mourned her the rest of his life. He would cry thinking of her and my heart would cry feeling his pain. I felt deeply for his loss, eventhough part of me was relieved she was gone and I felt guilt over that relief. He wasn’t a bad person, he’s what kept me balanced and feeling love and empathy. He was my dad and I miss him and love him deeply. Please understand who he was to me, and what he did for me. I love him and would have given my life for him to still be here.
Rebecca, thank you for clarifying further on the relationship between you and your father. I understand. I am sorry for your loss where your father is concerned. I am glad to read that he was your intervener and it is good that he was. His own ET would have been yo-yoing between you and his wife. Interesting that I was remembering reading various comments and a number of articles where HG and his father were mentioned when I read your words in your comment here. Thank you, Rebecca, for sharing what would have been quite difficult for you to write, I appreciate your response 🙂 xx
Asp Emp,
I got my results from HG today and we had a consultation afterwards today. I’m still a bit shocked and emotional that I was right. He’s a Middle Lesser Somatic Narcissist and I’m a bit emotional right now. I’m just, a mess right now,explains so much of his behaviors I’ve been noticing, the verbal fight we had before the BBQ and how I feel so unhappy with him. I tried real hard to keep my emotions repressed during the consultation because I knew crying wasn’t going to solve anything. I already decided to talk with my best friend and make plans with her, before the consultation with HG. I’m too emotional right now to think straight. I’m scared because last year, when I tried to leave he got aggressive and talked me into staying with counseling and promises of changing. I gotta make plans, hopefully he won’t go on the blog and see this. He thinks I waste my time here and with HGs work. Just wanted to let ya’ll know what’s going on. I’m scared, but I’ve done things anyway when I was scared before. The fear didn’t keep me from doing things before. I just have to plan and plan well. The biggest thing is affording a lawyer for divorce. He told me last year he was going to make my life hell if I left him. Here I go again.
Rebecca, thank you for sharing the results. I really am so sorry to hear that. I can imagine how you are feeling and thinking right now. Even more so when I read that you held back your emotions during the consult – I do understand that too. I am glad that you talked with your best friend about it, that is so important that you have that person who is outside the blog, your home environment, who is not directly “connected” – I am pleased to read that your friend is there for you.
Did you talk about your concerns with HG, about being scared? Can your family back home help with interim ie costs for lawyer, or something like that? Is there a chance you can talk with a local community police officer about your concerns about what husband would do? Is there a local women’s support group you can talk in confidence with? There must be some place where you can stay and be safe there too. You can plan it with your work to have a break for a week or so but not let on to husband about that and use that to escape?
You could apply to the AAF for assistance packages ie Divorcing the narcissist, how to handle the narcissist in court etc.
While obtaining information about lawyers, you can ask about awareness about narcissism or look online for any firms that indicate they have had training etc.
I really am so sorry, Rebecca. I understand that you have a lot to plan ahead. And to work through your thoughts / emotions around it all too.
I am sure other people who comment on KTN blog can offer you some guidance, for example, WhoCares who has been through a similar journey. I certainly will be here on KTN blog too. Hugs to you, Rebecca xx
BTW, can you trust your therapist to assist you too? Would he keep the confidentiality? Just a consideration xx
AspEmp,
I was just emailing HG about a conversation I had with my husband about my self image and self worth….and I think this is the answer to my concerns.
This is some of HGs best work. It is one of the handful of his articles/videos that go beyond interesting and actually provoke a physical reaction (a mixture of fear and nausea) for me.
I often wonder how my life would have been different if I had known about narcissism when I was a child, or at least an adolescent.
One of my primary caregivers was one, although my parents are not. My best friend’s mother was one too. She ensnared my mum as a friend. Her little son became my best friend, until we were about 10. As we grew up, the friend I had known since we were four inexplicably began to change…
I found HG aged about 35, and his work has helped me break a cycle of unhappy, unhealthy (in some cases abusive) relationships that went back to primary school.
He really is our greatest living writer and the value of his work will be understood by the wider world one day. I hope I live to see it. Thank you, HG.
I had a dream about Johnny Depp last night … he was seducing me and I was enjoying it!
My CoD traits were very apparent and we became very intimate in the dream.
Now, I don’t know what that means, but Johnny Depp must know that I have not, up to this point in the waking world, fallen for his seduction, so perhaps he’s trying out his narcissistic manipulations on me in my dreams (no doubt a live session of what he is on YT got my imaginative juices flowing).
I hadn’t changed my mind about him being a narcissist in my dream, I just fell for his seduction.
No, Johnny, I won’t be seduced by you in the waking world. Sadly, I can’t control my dreams …
Their delusion is astounding. I think withdrawal is the closest they come to accepting reality.
I know my ex was abused, isolated and tried to become like his father. The abuse came from both parents. For a long time I thought his parents were the problem. At the end I saw how he was playing us off against one another. I let so much slide because of his childhood – how can one not? It was used to repeatedly gain my empathy and excuse his own behaviour. To leave I had to harden myself – yes he had a heartbreaking childhood – but what he was doing to me was not right either. I had to come to terms with the fact I could not fix what had been broken so long ago…
Same here, only with my ex it was his dad and his siblings abusing and mom neglecting. They really play on our pity, and as a mid ranger, my ex did it so well I didn’t see any way to separate the past from the present and couldn’t think clearly to realize that he’d been abused and become the abuser instead of becoming against it, as I had. Once I realized this, long after he was gone, it was such an eye opener and made it less painful that he’d been abusive and that we’d ended. It became less personal, it was him being a narcissist, that’s all. Not to negate the work i must do to prevent it going forward with someone else, but it made sense for me out of what had happened. The pity play is their MO to hook and keep us. I’m glad you were able to get away and see it.
Every time I read this article, it evokes such strong sensations inside me. I want to cry, scream, shout..the uncontrollable urge to fight back..so many things, all at once. I don’t know why this article, above all others, speaks to me in such a way. I don’t know whether I am feeling sorry for HG as a child, myself, my dad, or all of us! The whole thing gets muddled. I feel like I have been shown the meaning of life, yet can’t do duck all about it! Frustration. Does anybody else particularly feel all of this with this article?
JB, reading what you say here, I can understand. It invokes so many emotions and thoughts for you. It is possible to get past this point of thinking / feeling. When I first read this article, I was reading it through the perception on how narcissists are formed. Now, I view it as how I was also formed, and how psychopaths are formed, and how other people can / may be formed into whatever they are. Maybe you have not quite explored into your own self as far as I have done for myself? I suppose it can be described as turning a t-shirt inside out and washing it before letting it dry and then turning it back outside in but clean? If you can understand what I mean?
Asp Emp,
I do get what you mean. I think that’s the problem though, it’s since exploring into myself that I have felt this way – before, like you, I read it as how narcissists are formed, not much beyond that. I found it fascinating, but it didn’t ‘touch’ me as such, even though I could apply it to people in my life. Suddenly, it’s moving me on a much deeper level. I was almost in tears reading the last few paragraphs, especially the line about ‘A lack of control now returns us to the lack of control then.’ I think, in my case, it’s triggered by the feelings I have as a mum; I have an urge to go back in time to when my dad was a little boy and rescue him from whatever made him how he is. It’s just the injustice of it all – no child asks to be born, and we should all have the right to a safe and emotionally secure upbringing. Course it could just be my hormones, I’m at a funny age! 😂 xx
JB, thank you for sharing your thoughts here. Reading your words, is it your ET, or is it your own personal inner trauma being ‘woken’ up by something that may have inadvertently ‘triggered’ it and opened the door slightly, so to speak? You mention hormones and age – if it is something that you may need to do, speak to a doctor? People may not realise it but when they get older, their body’s natural chemicals can / do change. It not necessarily a bad thing if it is your ET because you have access to this blog (and HG’s work) to guide you through this period. Once again, thank you for sharing 🙂
Asp Emp,
I’m not sure. I definitely felt triggered by the article, but I’m not sure why. I think now I know what I know, certain things trigger me and I have heightened emotional responses (not necessarily externally), whereas in the past I wouldn’t have done, because I wouldn’t have felt able to. I feel like I am going through some kind of rebellious phase, where I have suddenly realised that in the past I haven’t ever been allowed to feel anything, and now I am somewhat bolshly (is that a word?!) saying no, damn it, I AM allowed to feel whatever it is that I am feeling! Funnily enough, I wasn’t ever rebellious as a teenager, so maybe I am making up for it now? 😂
JB, hi, so sorry for not seeing this comment sooner. Yes, ‘bolshy’ is a word. It is good that you are permitting yourself to feel whatever you need to feel 🙂
Asp Emp,
I know ‘bolshy’ is a word, wasn’t so sure about ‘bolshly’! 😂
Yes I feel liberated, finally being able to feel things. It’s amazing how you can go through 40 plus years of thinking you are expressing yourself, and then realise that you were never really allowed to x
JB, “then realise that you were never really allowed to” – yes. Be true to yourself, even if it is bolshly 😉
Asp Emp,
The thing is, I thought I was being true to myself all these years, then suddenly realise I hadn’t been at all. All changing now though. Better late than never! 🙂
I do too. Foolish as it is, I want to save them all. And arrogant as I am, I’ve thought I could do it.
There’s some new science that entheogens (psilocybin, LSD) or empathogens (think MDMA) paired with targeted cognitive behavioral therapy might be helpful in the future. At higher doses, the mind experiences “ego death” and the id is lost. It’s the ultimate form of loss of control, surrendering to whatever is going on in the mindscape of their trip.
Specifically with psilocybin, the entrenched thought pathways are softened and lead to approximately three months of being more receptive to “re-wiring.” The integration period afterward seems especially important, as that’s when the CBT can help re-route thoughts and patterns.
This isn’t a 60’s trip in a basement; it’s targeted and intensive therapy that is still being written as we speak. It works wonders for the clinically depressed, people with intrusive thoughts and ruminations. People with NPD and such, they’re JUST starting to look at. Anecdotally, it seems to be a mixed bag. But those anecdotes arise out of a random trip in a basement rather than a therapeutic session.
Yes, there is a lot of research. I have thought about magic shrooms. Tripping with my husband. We did this when we were in college and some trips were not great. My husband has OCPD with some narc traits. I read a lot here because there is so little out there on OCPD. But the core is control, and comes from genetic predisposition and abusive childhood, just presents a little differently. I think there is a lot of value to it. When humans were tribal a lot of drugs were incorporated into the spiritual life and community gatherings. The way we live now so far removed from community and spirituality. I think in the right context it could be very valuable. Those college experiences definitely expanded my mind. Will definitely look into that. But who has the time between jobs and kids!
Doesn’tMatter,
If you’re foolish, so am I, because I think that’s my problem too, wanting to save them. When I was a teenager, my dad always used to (rather scathingly!) say that I “attracted waifs and strays”! Charming way of putting it, but I guess there might be some truth in that statement.
So the science stuff you mentioned, could that potentially mean that one day somebody with NPD could effectively be rewired to be ‘cured’ as such?
I always read this article with my soul on my shoulder and fearful, feverishly searching through my memory of the mistakes I made in raising my child.
Haven’t I praised shes too much? Have I underestimated too much? Was I not allowing too much? Too little consequence… Have I talked enough with her? I was still not home, still tired. Breaking away from me as early as shes 4-months old and putting the baby to a nursery under the care of alien women (I had to go back to work).
My stubbornness versus her stubbornness…
Many such thoughts.
Hi Joa,
I wanted to tell you thanks for your words of encouragement and your faith in my ability to get things done the way I decide to do them. Sometimes we all just need a little pep talk from someone who’s outside the situation, who’s been there, done that, but isn’t bogged down by fear and self doubt. Thanks so much for understanding me and seeing me. I’ve been working on healing from so much, especially from last year, it was the most painful trauma I’ve faced yet. 💔 It damn near broke me in two. I’ve been fighting to get me back and that includes my happiness….I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m forever changed and that’s not a bad thing. I can still climb trees, run in the meadow and have the sun on my face. I’m just a little more quick to speak my mind, tell people I don’t like how they’re treating me and I’m not going to just drop it. No, it’s getting addressed and it’s their problem if they don’t like me having limits to putting up with their abuse. If they don’t like it, there’s the door, bye. I’ll admit when I’m wrong and I’ll apologized for my wrong. I’m not perfect, far from it and I don’t even bother anymore killing myself trying to be perfect. It’s never going to happen. All i can do is my best and be happy with that.
Joa,
You sound like a caring, devoted mother. I’m sure no matter the mistakes you may, or may not have made, your daughter, I’m sure, loves you. If you need reassurance here…think of this, despite everything my mother did, said to me, I still love her and I can love her, with all the mistakes she made, your daughter loves you. Don’t worry about that, ease your mind and breathe.
JB, I did feel like that early on when I read the articles, now, I feel nothing other than a clear and concise explanation has been provided. I have been on the site almost since inception. I’ve lived and breathed everything HG has taught, it’s been a bumpy ride but well worth it.
I have zero sympathy for Ns at all now but nor do I feel any malice toward them any longer either. They just are what they are and we are what we are.
I once longed for a cure for NPD too. But actually, whilst Ns do cause an awful lot of damage to individuals and it is those individuals (only empaths) I’d like to save, they also add value to our existence in many ways too. I’ve been reading through lots of old comments recently and there is benefit to society by having Ns in our world e.g. politicians, surgeons, there would be few who would step up for these roles if we didn’t have Ns. That by no way means I like or excuse them, just accept that we all co-exist and have to roll with it. They also provide fun and excitement (well some of them hahah) and I don’t just mean in an intimate way either.
Just my reflection on it all 7 years plus on but, yes, I completely understand how you feel JB.
Alexissmith2016,
Thanks for your reflections, it’s really helpful to know that I’m not alone and that others have gone through similar feelings. It’s great that your feelings towards narcissists are now more neutral; I’m still stuck at the sympathy/pity stage!
I love this article.
https://narcsite.com/2019/09/10/to-control-is-to-cope-narcissism-and-its-creation-3/#comment-297253
That is a very good statement.