Mind Games – Part One



We love to conquer. Nowhere is off limits to our kind. Your mind is no exception to that mentality. The repeated application of mind games and the impact this had are both consequence which live long in the memory of those who have experienced them as a consequence of being entangled with us.

I repeatedly state that the games are always being played. I doubt few would disagree with that statement. You ought to be aware however that the deployment of mind games, whilst always a factor in the narcissistic relationship, is not as deliberate as you may first imagine.

In the case of the Lesser Narcissist, the mind games are collateral. They are a consequence of his instinctive behaviours, his reactions and pre-determined methodologies. He lacks the cognitive function to engage in the purposeful mental torment, but instead what arises as mind games is side-effect of the way that he behaves.

As for the Mid-Range, well the application of mind games will sometimes manifest as deliberate but just like  the Lesser, these mind games occur as a consequence of the way he is engineered to think and to behave, through instinct.  It is with the Greater where the true twisted behaviour manifests as not only are the mind games a consequence of what we do, we also purposefully engage in them because we know how effective they are at achieving what we want and also because we are excellent at deploying them.

The imposition of bewilderment on a shattered and exhausted mind possesses a deftness of touch which is far superior to the brutish application of a fist to a cheek. The conjuring of confusion from the use of words alone is a highlight of the Greater’s manipulative repertoire. Accordingly, the mind games which arise from entanglement with a Lesser or a Mid-Range arise because of the various defence mechanisms those types of narcissist deploy. The Greater regards the playing of mind games as an essential part of the narcissistic relationship, one which is considered noble, important and a hallmark of his sophisticated abuse.

These mind games are varied and effective. Anybody who has been on the receiving end of them will testify as to the horrible impact that they have in creating doubt, fear, worry, anxiety, submission and a sense of helplessness. What are some of these mind games?

  1. Second Guessing. The act of making you forget about your own needs because you are conditioned to think about our needs first in order to avoid some dreadful repercussion if you do not so. You apply your mind over and over to assessing the situation and trying to gauge how you should respond, what you should do next, what you should organise, how you should look, how you should behave in order to avoid some other abuse.
  2. Pre-occupation. By making ourselves so central to your existence and the only thing which matters you find that you are always wondering about us. What are we doing right now? Who are we with? What are we doing? This does not necessarily occur just in the devaluation. As the seeds of addiction are sown during the seduction, you find your mind is focused on us more and more. This is the laying of the groundwork to have you forget about your own needs and indeed who you are as the focus of your attention becomes all about us.
  3. Mirroring. We convince you that you are falling in love with the most wonderful and fantastic person you have ever met. This is achieved by mirroring what you want in the object of your affection. By meeting this need on so many different fronts, you become helpless to falling in love with what you believe us to be.
  4. Obsessing. By engaging in the vague, the vapid and the amorphous we have you start obsessing over us. Once again the focus moves on to us as you ask yourself what did he mean by that comment? Why is he late? Why did he just do that? You look for clues which are non-existent and seek answers which are not there, reading too much into what are often innocuous scenarios.
  5. Gas Lighting. The infamous act of causing you to doubt your own reality and is invariably the cumulative effect of many different types of mind game. You end up doubting yourself and accepting our false reality as the true reality instead.
  6. Jettison. The act of having you think that you are about to be discarded. Comments will be made which suggest that we are dissatisfied with you, that we are tired of you and that we have interests elsewhere. Nothing is said outright, there is nothing concrete, but the signs are there that you are going to be discarded. Aren’t they?
  7. Jealousy. “But she is just a friend.” “How can I be having an affair when we only meet during daylight.” “You are reading too much into it.” The appearance of somebody who we talk about a lot, spend time with and appear to admire is designed to bring about jealousy in you and undermine your self-confidence.
  8. Mea Culpa. The complexity and absurdity of our behaviour means that you are unable to fathom out what is actually going on. This results in you needing to find some kind of answer in order to give you peace of mind and therefore since you have no ground to question us, you decide you must be at fault and being to blame yourself. After all, nobody gets furious for no obvious reason do they? You must have done something wrong to provoke us. It is your fault.
  9. Projection. The movement of our faults and unpleasant behaviours from us to you. The accusation that you engage in the very behaviour which we undertake ourself.
  10. Character Assassination. The unmerited and savage attack on you, criticising you for any number of things; how you walk, how you talk, your hair colour, who your friends are; how you made the coffee this morning. Anything and everything about you will be attacked even though you cannot see the basis of doing so.
  11. Blame-Shifting. The defensive step of ensuring that we are never to blame or held accountable. Anything that goes wrong, any incorrect behaviour, any mishap is all down to you. You caused it, you brought it about, you made it happen. Even though you cannot see any factual basis for the accusation that has been flung your way, this will not stop it happening.
  12. Authoritative Denial. We do not just deny, we deny with such conviction, determination and authority that surely only someone who does this is someone who has to be right, yes?
  13. Gaseous Smear Campaigns. You are being spoken about, whispered about and slurs cast against your name, at least you think that is the case. You seem to be receiving strange glances and hear snickering when you walk by certain people, but you never hear anything concrete or certain. You might be mis-hearing, you might be mis-reading, it may just be paranoia. Trying to work out if you are being smeared is like trying to catch a gas with your bare hands.
  14. Silent Treatments. The staple of the narcissistic arsenal. Why is he silent? Why has he vanished? What have you done wrong? When will he speak to me again?
  15. Double Standards. We are so pleasant and wonderful to everybody else. People speak so highly of us, yet when the front door is closed we turn into a monster with you. Is it real? Perhaps you are taking it out of context and exaggerating or maybe you are doing something which causes this to happen and nobody else does?
  16. Amnesia. We deny having ever done something or said something even though you are positive, well fairly certain, okay, at least reasonably sure, we did say it. It works both ways as we accuse you of having a faulty memory as we tell you we told you last week we would be going out tonight, why can you not remember these things? Are you doing it in order to annoy us? Of course you are.
  17. Losing Your Mind. We label you as crazy, unhinged, a maniac who is need of help. Good Lord, everybody thinks it of you and we are a saint for putting up with this behaviour for so long. We tell you often, arrange for you to get help, see a doctor or a therapist and accompany you to explain to them how you are losing your marbles. Are we making all of this up in order to disturb you further, or then again, might you just be losing your mind after enduring all of this?

14 thoughts on “Mind Games – Part One

  1. annaamel says:

    What a personal and heartfelt post, Joa. I really enjoyed reading it – thankyou. I hope you didn’t have to rewrite it all and had a stored copy somewhere. I found it very moving to read about your experience of your pregnancy and then trying to form a family with your daughter’s father – and persevering until it seemed impossible. I admire your strength and courage in forging your family unit without him. It is clear you have been an exceptionally protective mother.

  2. Heidi says:

    The games of
    5. Gas lighting
    14. Silent Treatment
    17. Losing mind
    of this list were worst for me as victim. Maybe only silent treatment really was applied as with diagnosis schizophrenia I already have issues with realities n am called crazy or disabled officially. Nevertheless I know how it feels to lose oneself and how dark it is when you are alone in addition.

    My approach to people is to help seeing clearer, getting rid of confusion. I would not use one’s weakness against that person like a narcissist but more in favour. Only very little occasions where I am using it as weapon.

    I find it important not to judge the abuser to being evil but to getting to a state where abuse is more or less impossible. On the way to this state I suffer, but I learn. I get what I want in the end: consciousness.

    Not judging is so much easier when the narcissist is self-aware. I hope that more n more narcs will become aware as well as more n more non-narcs.

    1. Nicolette says:

      They will never be self aware. This approach to life makes you a victim of them. Time and time again.

  3. WiserNow says:

    It would be very interesting to hear more from you about the Co-Dependent school of empath.

    The Co-Dependent empath has the lowest number of narcissistic traits and also, those traits have reduced strength, if I understand your information correctly.

    The ‘making’ of the Co-Dependent is also intriguing in that you have said the person begins developing as a narcissist and then, the development trajectory detours for some reason in the direction of a Co-Dependent. It would be very interesting to hear more about this.

    In your book ‘Chained’, you have described yourself being ‘lucky’ to ensnare a Co-Dependent because it is the most tenacious of all the empath schools, and such a person is willing to keep pouring him or herself into the narcissist despite the harmful abuse doled out because of the validation it provides.

    While you may feel ‘lucky’ HG, the people affected by the Narcissist and Co-Dependent’s irrational and deluded behaviours are definitely not lucky. The Co-Dependent sacrifices other relationships and the well-being of people that are harmed in the process.

    For example, when a narcissist and co-dependent have children, I believe it is the children who suffer most, even though the Co-Dependent also suffers. The parents have a complementary symbiotic relationship and the pair of them prioritise this relationship (either consciously or unconsciously). The children are unknowing or unwilling participants in the parents’ constant toxicity and drama.

    When one parent is a Co-Dependent, that parent is compelled to stay in the unhealthy relationship at the expense of the children.

    1. annaamel says:

      I like this post, WiserNow. I agree with you that co-dependent empaths could have the potential to create problems for other people.

      Before I explain why, I want to acknowledge that any of us can create problems for others, and it can be related to our schools and cadres. But I do think there is a particular vulnerability in co-dependent empaths that makes them susceptible to thoughts and behaviours which cause them to treat others in a less than kind manner.

      If it is very important to the co-dependent empath to be approved of by the narcissist they are involved with, not only will they will put others second to the narcissist to show their devotion and loyalty, and this can even include their own children, they may also try to gain the narcissist’s approval by putting a person down – and this can be their own children. Thus, as parents, they can create additional problems for their child who already has a narcissistic parent and is suffering consequences of that unfortunate situation. The co-dependent parent might make decisions with their narcissist partner in mind, regardless of how it affects others. I am sure that this does not happen in all families where there is this pairing, and I know that some co-dependent empaths will absolutely put their children first and put a lot of effort into doing so. Also, some narcissists may not be as difficult to live with which lessens a need for a co-dependent empath to go to extreme lengths to gain their approval.

      I also think the harmful version of the N/CD relationship would have to exist outside the family unit as well. There is probably always this potential – particularly if the narcissist is particularly manipulative and the co-dependent is particularly addicted to or deeply needs the acceptance of the narcissist. This could be work environments, social groups, any context, really. If we look at the troublemakers of history doing terrible things, and having supporters who helped them do terrible things, we’d find some people who are not narcissists, not normals, but deeply attached and addicted empaths who have felt compelled to support the narcissist in every way required.

      I don’t think any empath sets out wanting to be cruel. It is not something they naturally pursue or value. It’s their attachment and addiction to the narcissist which corrupts their empathy and their desire to please the narcissist is so overriding that it’s hard for them to do anything else.

      I also agree with you about how unlucky the people are who find themselves between or affected by a narcissist and a co-dependent pairing. I think HG may have moved away from primarily seeking co-dependents as his IPs. He may still feel that other narcissists are luckiest if they ensnare co-dependents as they provide the most emotional fuel and are the most dependable. We know he is aware of the pain narcissists inflict on co-dependents in intimate relationships (sometimes, perhaps, out of them) and I suspect he probably also is aware of the damage that a deeply attached co-dependent could inflict on others outside that relationship. Perhaps all Greater and above narcissists are aware of this potential.

      Of course a totally selfish narcissist, unfortunately, would not care. .

    2. Rebecca says:


      I just recently got the book, CHAINED and a few other books from HG, FUEL, SITTING TARGET and SEX AND THE NARCISSIST. I got the CHAINED book because I’m 27% Codependent and wanted to know more about it, how it came to be, how it affects me etc. I can see where I cling, when I get triggered and I attach deeply too. I don’t like that I have any Codependent in me, as I’m aware of how hard I cling, how much abuse I’ll take and take, just to please and make “happy” the narcissist. All that needs to be done is to trigger it and then the chains appear and lock me in.
      I’m really curious about how the Codependent started going towards being a narcissist!, but stopped and became a Codependent. I’m interested in finding out how this happens. I’m not enough Codependent to fully act like a Codependent, but it’s still relevant to me.

      1. WiserNow says:


        The book Chained is very helpful in understanding the Co-Dependent’s behaviour and motivations. It shows how much abuse the Co-D is willing to take to stay with the narcissist.

        When I read Chained, it helped me better understand my father. Beforehand, I couldn’t understand why my father didn’t push back more against my mother’s manipulations and criticism the way I would have. While growing up, I would feel empathy for my father and that made me feel responsible for pushing back and ‘fighting’ on his behalf against my mother. I think that is partly where my ‘carrier’ and ‘martyr’ cadres originated. If I had known more about their dynamic back then, I wouldn’t have felt so responsible. My actions didn’t change their dynamic; instead, I was drawn into their dramas and away from my own goals and pursuits.

        It’s interesting that you say you get triggered and then the chains appear and lock you in. I would like to know what triggers you.

        Now that you know you are partly Co-D, have you been able to address that part of your personality in order to recognise the triggers and change your responses to them?

        Also, do you feel as though your narcissistic traits are less prominent or less effective because of the Co-D component you have?

        I don’t actually have any Co-D in my empathic schools. I think that’s why I would like to know more about how Co-Ds think and what motivates them. I think that addressing the Co-D’s need to ‘chain’ themselves to the narcissist is a key to finding out how to address the narcissist’s inability to change.

        1. Rebecca says:

          I’m still reading CHAINED and taking notes and writing questions to ask HG later. I’m 27% Codependent and I think my dad was a majority Codependent, based on his behaviors I witnessed. He was completely devoted to my mother, would do just about anything for her, even punished me,if she wanted it done. He mourned her, until his last breathe. He was essential a good person, the person holding his leash, wasn’t and sometimes it caused him to do bad things. He didn’t have 55% Savior like me and wouldn’t stand up to her and tell her, No! Like I did.

          My triggers, HG told me I have about 4. I know of 2 of them, what they are, how I react and how I get a hold of myself during the triggers. I’ll explain the major trigger to you. Abandonment, whenever the narcissist threatens to leave me stranded somewhere. I panic and this causes me to cling and beg the narcissist. It also can cause me to try to overplease the narcissist, give into their wishes and demands….go out of my way to please and care for the narcissist.

          I haven’t been triggered in a while and the MLSOMATIC can’t trigger me because I don’t fear him leaving me as much now. I’ve worked on detaching from him emotionally and now the thread, that’s left, is barely there. It’s not easy to achieve this distancing from him and he’s noticed it and asked me, if I’m still wanting to leave him and if I’m happy with him.

          His question made me feel so guilty and I’m thinking he was manipulating me, aware he’s doing it or not, I’m not sure. I just felt like a jerk and told him, I’m working on being happy, and left it at that. It seemed to please him and I avoided anymore inquiries from him. Dodged that bullet.

          I’m still looking into the Codependent part of me, got some digging to do, questions to ask HG and some self analysis to do. I’m very curious about being, what I think is a “half baked narcissist ” aka the Codependent. Is the Codependent some sort of hybrid, narc/empath?? Just one of my questions for HG. I’m so wrapped up in the details, that it’s overwhelming to me. I have so much to learn about the Empath side.

          1. Rebecca says:


            I just wonder if some of my answers to my Trait Detector are wrong because my Codependent part doesn’t want to see the true self as a weak person, but wants to see just the bad seed my mother told me I am. Could I be more lamb, than lion and I just don’t know any better?? Do I know me,as well as I think I do??

          2. Rebecca says:


            I believe I told you before about my concerns about the trait detector results. Some of the questions I had more than one answers because I would have done two or more of the options in the situation..depending on how I felt at the time, what else was going on etc…..the other is some I wouldn’t have done any of the options, but had to pick one…and I think I’m overthinking again…grrrrr, I get so frustrated with myself sometimes. So annoying. I know my anger is a trigger that can get easily manipulated, but yet my score was only 40 for anger….just one example. Maybe I have a handle on my anger more than I realize and I’m just being overly concerned. Or, maybe I just don’t understand the scoring as well as I think I do and 40 is a high score and I don’t know it. ??

          3. WiserNow says:

            Thank you for your reply and for answering my questions. Your explanations are interesting.

            From reading your reply and also Joa’s reply below, each individual is unique in their thoughts, motivations, self-analysis, etc. Even though both you and Joa have a significant or majority Co-Dependent element in your Empath schools, you are very different individuals with different ways of expressing that part of yourselves.

            This makes me think that even though HG’s book ‘Chained’ explains the Co-Dependent’s motivations generally, the specific way the school is expressed in a person’s behaviour will not be clear-cut or obvious.

            You say your major trigger is abandonment, which makes you panic and want to cling to and beg the narcissist not to leave you. In relation to attachment styles, it sounds like an anxious preoccupied attachment style. You are aware of this trigger and are learning to resist the emotional effects of the trigger and detaching emotionally. That’s great that you’re doing that.

            I think guilt is a major factor for an empath. I find that it’s difficult to resist the guilt too. It’s interesting that you say his question made you feel like a jerk. To me, there was no reason for you to feel like a jerk. I can see that it was an intimate and emotional kind of question, however, you had no obligation to feel any differently than how you did feel.

            I wonder if guilt and self-blame are more prevalent for a Co-D empath than other schools?

            When I think about you feeling that way, I can see clearly that you had no obligation to the narcissist. When I consider the same kind of feeling when I have it myself, it’s harder for me to see it in myself and to commit to the thought that I have no obligation to the narcissist.

            That feeling of ‘obligation’ is an interesting concept. The feeling the empath has of needing to stick with the narcissist is like an instinctive obligation that really doesn’t exist outside the empath’s mind.

            I think it’s emotional thinking. At times, if I’m thinking logically, I’m not stressed or in a hurry, and I’m not on auto-pilot, I can clearly see if or when I’m being manipulated and I nip it in the bud as soon as possible. I may ask a pointed question or say impatiently, “that doesn’t make sense.” etc.

            At other times when I’ve got a lot on my mind or I’m distracted etc, I can very easily slip into auto-pilot. I will then react instinctively due to feeling guilt or obligation or just because certain reactions are so ingrained they are reflexive. I then catch myself while doing them or afterwards and I tell myself, “I’ll let it go this time, but don’t do that again!” haha

    3. Joa says:

      WN, I sent this answer a month ago, but maybe it didn’t go through because of the length. I try again:

      WN, according to the HG detector, I am more than half Codependent.

      When it comes to “creating” the Codependent and Narcissus – I don’t know if it is, but I feel it is 😊 As a child, I lied a lot and invented amazing stories about myself. I colored the facts and opinions of others about me. At the same time, I was aware of what I was doing, how I misinterpreted what had happened and that I was brazenly lying. I was a “walking lie”.

      I lied to avoid unpleasant situations. I was lying to get attention. I over-interpreted the events and words so that I could feel sorry for myself and I feel sorry with other people (and then listened to their pleasant denials about me, that I accumulated in my memory).

      N2 was similar in childhood. Probably even with less intensity than mine (he pretended or had holes in his memory). Several times, analyzing his and my life, his and my reactions, we came to the point, when he presented his arguments and I presented my arguments, and he spoke about his way and way of life: “Once I chose YES, and I will not change it anymore”, and I replied: “And I chose YES, and I will not change it anymore. And what now?”.

      I believe, the turning point in which you “choose” your goal and direction is experiencing or not experiencing at a certain stage of personality development – a very deep shame in front of people, first in the family, then outside the family, and also in front of yourself, and seeing more benefits in : a) using lies and manipulation; or b) refraining from them.

      Most of my lies and manipulations I practiced mainly on my sister, with whom we were very close (forgive me, my love, it was so easy to upset you, scare you, make you jealous when I was jealous, and yet, when a real storm came, I always defended you, right?). But I also manipulated the reactions of all family members and friends. It was beneficial for me (avoiding punishment, focusing attention on me, keeping a nice atmosphere at home, etc.). However, several times I experienced deep shame and I think these events made me turn back from the path, I was walking.

      1. As a very curious and never bored child, I loved discovering secrets, especially of other people 😊 I read my mother’s deeply hidden love letters from her youth, I often sneaked into my father’s (stepfather’s) library, which could not be opened (he set traps that I learned to handle), and read his valuable books on architecture, sculpture, painting, read court papers, looked through his family heirlooms; but also I did completely silly things, for example:
      a) I scratched the elevator in the building;
      b) leaning out from the 5th floor and waving my legs out the window, I sprayed water syringes at the window of my neighbor on the 4th floor, which I didn’t like shes;
      c) after finding and trimming the duck feather, I dipped it in my father’s crystal inkwell and tried to write as it was done in the Middle Ages.
      d) I poured my mother’s red nail polish (she had a lot of them) into a cup of water and tried to mix both textures with my hand. At the same time, I did not know, what the nail polish remover was for, and I could not get rid of the nail polish from the skin of my hands.

      Sometimes lying paid off. When I opened one of my father’s bookcases and a large sheet of glass fell out, just before it hit the floor, I managed to pulled up my foot and it didn’t break. My sister and I somehow put the glass back in place, but my toes were crushed and swelled like a bubble. I lied, that I fell over the curb in the street and a bicycle ran over my foot (although the surgeon probably did not believe this version). When the ink from the inkpot splashed on the wall, I scratched the plaster all the way to the reinforced concrete, filled the hole with paper mass and painted over it with several layers of school white poster paint (it was not noticed for 2 years, until renovation, and then I pretended I did not know what it was, and no one was finding out the truth, because the apartment was being renovated anyway).

      In the case of a) and b) it ended with my mother’s reprimand, without the participation of my father, and the standard at that time beating with a military belt (although with my mother’s thin leather thong, it hurt much more – that’s why I always pretended that I was afraid of a thick belt). I don’t remember what I came up with then.

      In case d), when my mother saw my hand, from which earlier I tried to scrape off the varnish with sandpaper (double red), I lied that a friend from school persuaded me, to put my hand in a cup and something like this arose and I don’t know what it is and in total it’s nothing like… (pfff). I chose the most polite student and thought Mom would give up, but because the chafed hand looked like a zombie’s hand, mom decided to find out what it was, to counteract the effects. She located the number and called the friend’s mom and it turned out, that there was no such event. I felt ashamed in front of my friend (we competed with the marks) and her mother.

      2. Being in a children’s sanatorium, I got a letter from teachers and students of my class. Being influenced by the books I read and her characters, I wrote back too colorfully and unreal, inventing adventures and foreign-sounding names of “friends” from the sanatorium + I wanted to make a boy classmate jealousy, who I liked (that was the main reason, in fact). The effect was exaggerated and when the inspiration subsided, I myself concluded, that I had exaggerated, but the letter was on its way and I couldn’t take it back. So I fumed with my shame, imagining what the class, the boy, and the teachers would think of me.

      3. The shame of the century. The greatest of my childhood shame. Wanting to focus my mum attention on myself, I started writing poems. The first few were made by me. They had a moderate effect, but I wanted more and more. The next poems were 100% plagiarism of a fairly well-known adult poet for children, but I knew that my mother did not know her. Bull’s-eye! My mother beamed with pride as she looked through the notebook with “my” wise (over the age) and touching poems and drawings adequate to them (of my authorship). My sister (being younger and more ingratiating, most often placed on a pedestal), turned green with jealousy and also began to write poems and draw. However, her poems did not match “mine” – with sophisticated vocabulary, sensitivity to the world and wisdom. My mom was so proud, she decided, that both my sister and I are to rewrite the poems and redraw the drawings, that will be attached to the letter to my aunt from France. Oops, they can discover a lie – I objected and made up excuses, but my mother was adamant, she wanted to show off. Letters have been sent. A little anxiety – what if it comes out? Nooo, impossible – how will aunt from France know the Polish poet? I calmed down and relaxed. Unfortunately, my mother decided to boast about her daughter also in public, and sent notebooks with my poems for publication to a children’s and youth newspaper in one of the competitions. Ah, I burned myself in shame and twisted in despair, as I waited for the newspaper’s editorial office to reply. I knew, the lie would turn out. I only hoped, that the editors would reject my poems and not write back. Many weeks passed and no answer came. I felt more and more confident. She finally came. Mom read the editorial letter to me and my sister. She didn’t say a word more about it. The disappointment on her face, indifferent resignation + my sister’s triumph (which I quickly pacified, because my sister is easy to manipulate) was one of my worst experiences. Much heavier than the undeserved beatings and fear of a father. I’d rather be pulled and beaten, than feel this flame of shame inside me.

      I think, that’s when I finally changed direction. I decided, that lying was not the best option for me.

      I lie and continue to manipulate. But I lie and manipulate for others, not for myself anymore (okay, I admit, maybe I turn something up sometimes 😊). My life and actions are very consistent with what I say. It gives me a lot of confidence and pride in yourself.


      I used to worry about why I am different from other mothers? Why am I different? Most mothers stand like a lion to defend their child. It whitens their deeds. Blame others, not your child. I do not. When the teacher draws her attention, and I think it is right, I am happy. When she started leaving school – I did not excuse her absence and I was angry, that the teacher did not take any consequences towards her and did not lower her behavior mark on the certificate (just one grade – it is not enough for her to feel it!). When she lied to the teacher, that she sent him homework via e-mail, although she did not, and he turned out to be extremely meticulous and told her to prove it before the whole class – I immediately wrote back to her on Messenger, as in this situation she can come out of this lie with her face; I was immediately consoled her, that this is not the end of the world; but I also added a word from myself, that the easiest way to avoid such situations is without lying – and I was glad, that she felt this panic and shame.

      When I was called from school, that I should come, because the children had a fight – I was going with the fear, that my child might have been the perpetrator. Whew, she was the victim and the defending party. And although my heart was bleeding as I looked at her tousled hair and scratches, I felt relieved. First, of all teeth were all 😊 Secondly, it is easier for me to endure the harm of my child (she is and must be strong, like all the women in my family) than the fact, that she could hurt others, that we, as a family team, would be to blame, so in debt. I don’t like guilt and debt.
      And I handled the conflict with the perpetrator (a boy with ADHD) unprofessionally, but effectively (because they couldn’t do it at school). He never approached my baby again, even though she was his target for several months, until the climax. I got him after school at the playground. I grabbed his arm tightly, so he wouldn’t run away, held him down, crouched down in front of him, lowering my face down to the level of his face, and looked hard into his eyes, saying: “I am a mom… (name of my baby). I love her the most in the world. She is the most important for me. WHY DID YOU HURT MY CHILD? You’ll never do that again.” and I was still looking into his eyes, and when he lowered his eyelids, I let go of him. That’s all. He didn’t answer anything. It was enough.


      WN, I disagree that every codependent sacrifices different relationships and the good of people. I do not agree, that the codependent person will stay in the relationship at the expense of the child. Not necessarily. The decision, that I would give birth and raise a child myself (although I did not plan), in fact, was already made around 5-6 weeks of pregnancy, when I felt a hidden and veiled panic, aversion and hostility N2, when he attracted and offered wonderful visions of our life together after removal child (unrealistic, I knew that I would not be able to bear such guilt and continue living happily, as if nothing had happened, I would go crazy, I would destroy myself, and I knew that sooner or later he would use it against me). This decision was made, when he made his first affront to me – I was deeply torn weighing my fate, I felt that my life so far was collapsing at the bottom, I never wanted a baby, but I couldn’t remove the life, which I already wore. His piece in me… He was supposed to come and we were supposed to talk, I expected support. That day, 4 days after I found out I was pregnant, he didn’t come to me for the first time. That day, I first encountered round-the-clock silence, and then cold messages. That day, I writhed in despair, longing and regret, and my tears flowing for several hours until my shirt was wet. That day, my mother – informed by my sister – came to me and, seeing me like this, slapped me. Thank you, it woke me up. It helped collect the scattered particles of me. That day, she let me down too – putting pressure on the removal of the baby (in the days that followed,
      it was even worse). Thank you, pressure from all sides triggered my maximum protection mode, which I embraced myself and my baby.

      Later, I tried different concepts of being a family with N2, gave it a chance, opened the door, I agreed to little. I still loved him. I accepted him even, when he completely disappeared for 3 months and appeared only after my lonely birth (I hid his absence and lack of contact, from my surroundings, thousands of excuses and explanations, because with every cell of my body I felt that he would come back). When our daughter was one month old, he lives with me and our daughter. It was beautiful. And disappeared again for a week. He was coming back. It was great. Disappeared. He was hopeless. He was coming back. He regretted it. He hugged our daughter. Luck. Together. Disappeared. He returned and was greeted like a King (…) After a few months, it became clear, that this relationship could not be maintained and that I could not take him into account in my and my daughter’s real life plans, but only tolerate him. It became clear, that with him, I would not be able to be the mother I wanted to be for my daughter. Steadfast. Confident. Rock. Signpost. I decided to move to another city (nearby) and mark only my space more clearly. I fought for independence on several fronts. I forgave my mother. He came still, less and less. Sex. He ceased to be interested in our child. Sex. Dream. Food. Sex. We were drifting apart at the speed of light. Sex. Disappeared. He was a stranger. He was coming back. One purr of his and I forgot everything for a moment. Sex. Melting regret in him and with him. Sex. It couldn’t go on any longer. After all, he completely disappeared – for 13 years.

      For almost 16 years, I have been raising my daughter by myself, although I have been raising her by myself since forever. I knew what type of men interested me (now I know it is N.) and that I couldn’t do this to my daughter. I gave up on any romantic relationship. There are a lot of men around me, I spend many hours a day with them, I approach the edge of danger and walk away, the vast majority are N. This way I saturate my addiction – not letting anyone cross the threshold of my home and heart. Wall. My daughter had to be safe. Now it’s easier, because nobody is storming anymore (insolence! Ha ha ha), and she already has her delicate claws 🙂

      In addition to most Codependent, I also have a Super element and a lot of Contagion. Perhaps these two factors are influencing my behavior. I have excellent intuition, I can sense danger beyond words and gestures, and I predict well based on all the microscopic symptoms, I notice.

      I think, it wrong to see the Codependent as a dependent loser, who gives control of himself to someone else. It is intertwined and changeable, mutual control. It is correct to see such a person as the one who will endure and forgive more. Perhaps an almost 100% Codependent person would be as you describe, but such a person would not be able to survive at all – they would be either insane or die.

      I am submissive and rebellious at the same time – depending on the circumstances or the person. It’s also hard for me to extricate myself from all sorts of relationships until I punish, until this desire is satisfied, even if it takes my whole life 😊 It’s very visible, though thin, features in my biography, that sometimes swell a little more, when I smell to it occasion.

      I think, my sister is Codependent (strong Geyser, love terrorist, compassionate and very good person). And yet, so close to Narcissus…

      And my mom is Codependent. She is even closer to Narcissus… She can’t be alone. She’s “dying”. She withers. She is steered, but she also steers. I am very much like her. Therefore, it was a priority for me, not to harm my child in the same way. The only real solution was a lonely journey through life. And it turned out, that it is not that difficult, considering that I always felt a void, that no one was able to fill completely (only momentary snapshots). I have this abyss, that wants to suck in another person, consume them, and enter into symbiosis with them. And I also want to be absorbed and appropriated. But there are also times, when I have to go away. I learned to control it and to communicate it. Like Narcissus – I have the inner conviction, that if you have come close to me, if we have absorbed each other, you are always mine in a way, but also in a way I am always yours (though I know it’s ridiculous).

      I also think, that in fact and deeply, every human being is alone, even in a very close relationship with someone else. The sooner a person accepts this and stops deluding himself, the better it is for him.

      Will I finally loosen the reins? I’m afraid so. When my daughter moved away to a safe distance. I have something else to finish. Regardless of the consequences. Unless… something else catches my attention.

      1. Contagious says:

        You are a poet Joa. No lie. You write beautifully with passion, wisdom and honesty. Thanks!

      2. WiserNow says:

        Thank you for your reply. You have written a lot about yourself and your life experiences.

        As I said above to Rebecca, it’s clear from your two replies that you are very different in your personalities even though you both have a majority or significant Co-Dependent element. I think that shows your genetic makeup and life experiences have shaped the Co-D element in a unique way and that no two empaths will be the same or even similar even though they share the same schools.

        When I wrote my comment above about a Co-D and Narcissist prioritising their relationship at the expense of other people, I was thinking of particular kinds of couples. The couples I had in mind embodied the relationships with Co-Ds that HG wrote about in ‘Chained’. For example: Will Smith and Jada Pinkett-Smith; and Harry and Harry’s wife. This kind of marriage and relationship also describes my own mother and father very well.

        In these relationships, the narcissist and codependent empath live together, they are enmeshed, and are married with children. My mother and father’s relationship is like Harry and Harry’s wife’s relationship in some ways (not financially though, unfortunately).

        My parents had children soon after marriage and then my mother ‘convinced’ my father to move to a different continent where he was far away from his side of the family and his friends. Like Harry, my father moved to the other side of the world, isolated from his family and everyone he grew up with. My parents stayed together and had a close marriage (like Will and Jada Smith) even though my father was generally in devaluation most of the time.

        Considering your life experiences and your decision to raise your daughter alone, you went down a very different path. Maybe the relationship dynamic is different when the woman is a narcissist and the man is Co-D? Maybe it’s due to early family life and how the empath’s early life experience ‘teaches’ and prepares him/her to have a family and raise children? Maybe the influence and support of other family members makes the Co-D behave differently? I don’t know if these things make a difference, I’m just speculating.

        I don’t think any of the empath schools is a dependent loser or ‘weak’. I think each of the schools is strong, tenacious and also fascinating in their individual ways. I do not make any judgements.

        In another comment I made in this thread that has not appeared yet – it must still be in moderation – I said the Co-D and narcissist seem, to me, to be the most ‘opposite’ and in that way, the two of them are the most symbiotic. This is similar to what you have mentioned too – that the relationship is “intertwined and changeable, mutual control.” In some ways, when there is a long marriage and many years of living together, the two people learn to understand how to ‘tolerate’ each other and there is mutual dependence and a kind of familiarity.

        I think it’s interesting that you have the elements Co-D, Super and Contagion in your empath schools. Each element contrasts with the others and has different drives. That could be why I see contradictions in your personality from what you have said. For example, I can see both pride and shame, lies and truth, manipulation and intuition, selfishness and selflessness. To me, these contradictions create drama and movement, adventure, and an element of volatility too. It may be why you were never bored and always curious as a child. Your mind is busy questioning and looking at things in different ways and from different angles; uncovering secrets; testing and manipulating the people around you; making experiments.

        To me, you sound more independent than Co-Dependent. Maybe this means you have needed to be brave, a strong and reliable mother for your child, and have developed a kind of tough shell with a soft interior that you need or prefer to hide? I don’t know, I’m just guessing. Maybe I am completely wrong too 🙂

        You are a unique and dynamic character Joa. Thank you again for your reply.

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