when-narcissists

Many people are curious to know what happens when there is some narc on narc action? Do they recognise one another? Do they seek one another out? How do they react around one another? Do they gang up and is there a pack mentality? Can narcissists work together? Can two narcissists have a successful romantic relationship?

As you know, I categorise our kind into cadres and schools of narcissist. The latter is linked to awareness, ability and cognitive function and therefore this is what is relevant when considering whether our kind recognise one another. Addressing that question first is straight forward. The Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists do not know what they are and therefore they are unable to recognise their own kind. The Greater Narcissist, a rare beast, is aware of what he is but usually will not admit it (unless he sees some gain to be achieved from doing so). He is however able to recognise his own kind in terms of all three of the schools. With this platform of awareness and recognition, what transpires when narcissists collide? Let us begin with the Lesser and the Lesser.

Two Lesser Narcissists can readily become entangled as a consequence of being related. The existence of a familial connection means that there is no need for an actual seduction between the two Lesser Narcissists. If for instance the two Lesser Narcissists are two brothers then whenever they interact they will seek to draw fuel from the other. This will manifest as seeking to outdo one another or demand attention from one another. For instance, a Lesser Victim Narcissist would want his brother to help him get down some stairs. The brother Lesser Somatic may agree to assist in the expectation of receiving positive fuel from the LVN’s appreciation and thanks. This is less likely to be forthcoming from the LVN and this failure to be appreciative will result in the brother LSN mocking his brother for his lack of mobility, his poor physical prowess as a consequence of the LSN having his fury ignited by the criticism which arises because the LVN did not express sufficient thanks and appreciation for the LSN helping him. Alternatively, the LVN demands the assistance of his more agile brother to help him down some stairs, but the LSN sees no reason to help. He is no carer and therefore refuses. This failure to assist is a criticism to the LVN, his fury is ignited and he will lash out at the LSN sibling through name-calling, telling him he should spend less time in the gym and more time helping his brother out because he needs the help and hell he is entitled to it.

Two Lesser siblings will actually provide one another with fuel because they will erupt in rage with one another. The lack of consideration that they will have for one another (or where they feign it in order to try to gain an advantage) will result in the two railing against one another on a repeated basis. They will trade bad-tempered insults and physically fight, each gaining fuel from the other’s rage until either sated they part or they are parted by others. Unable to recognise that they are dealing with one of their own kind and because they will treat one another as Non-Intimate Secondary Sources they will keep coming together to use one another for fuel, clash, sparks will fly and then they will separate. The intermittent nature of their interaction, since they use one another as a NISS means that their relationship will continue for a long time without discard and will be one marked by turbulence. Outsiders, unaware of what they are, will regard two Lesser siblings as competitive, argumentative and repeatedly at loggerheads. They will covet one another’s possessions, delight in trying to engage in an affair with their sister-in-law or the girlfriend of their sibling. They will seek to outdo one another, aligned against one another because of what they are but drawn to one another through the familial bond and the fact they are able to gain short intense bursts of fuel from one another.

What about two Lessers who find themselves coming together in a social sense? The initial seduction between the two will be effective since neither is seeking to make the other a primary source and therefore the usual instinctive checks for empathy etc will be less rigorous because of this and also because the individuals concerned are Lesser Narcissists. It is extremely rare for two Lessers to become friends in isolation. Instead they are brought together through the ‘glue’ of other non-narcissists. Thus, an empathic individual may have been ensnared by Lesser Narcissist A through say a football team and also through Lesser Narcissist B through being neighbours and this empathic person may well bring the two Lessers together as part of a wider social circle. Thus, it is conceivable that they can become friends, most likely of the outer circle variety and are thus Non Intimate Secondary Sources.

Similar to the situation of a familial Lesser Narcissists, the two social Lesser Narcissists will bump up against one another, trying to outdo one another, clashing, arguing and seeking to draw fuel. Their behaviours will cause the ignition of fury in the other resulting in the provision of fuel and again this will be in short bursts before their need for fuel is sated and they back off. Their interactions will be intermittent and it will usually be necessary for the interactions to take place against the matrix of other non-narcissists being in attendance.

The first Lesser will seek to gain the approval of the social group. The second will resent this and lash out at the first Lesser and thus the arguing will commence. Those within the group will regard the two as just having a ‘personality clash’ not truly understanding the dynamic and will spend their time trying to keep the peace and keep the two from attacking one another both verbally and physically. They will rut with one another as they seek to establish primacy within the group and will always keep going and going until others intervene. Once this happens, they will break off and not bother with one another until the next occasion where they are brought  together. The two Lesser Narcissists will not spend time with one another and nobody else in attendance. The lack of a familial bond means that they would just go at one another until one knocked the other out, thus there is little incentive for the two to socialise in isolation. Instead, the social Lesser Narcissists are always brought together in a wider group, where they will compete with one another against the backdrop of onlookers.

In a work situation, the two Lesser Narcissists are brought together because of the connection of employment. There is therefore no seduction between them but their link is already established. They will compete, not co-operate with one another, look to do the other down and use third parties to try to elevate themselves against this person who will be identified as a troublemaker and a competitor straight away. Two Lesser Narcissists who are forced to work together will become a headache for any HR department. Unwilling to compromise, always blaming one another, shirking responsibility, looking to draw a reaction from each other, they are actually unlikely to get any work done but instead spend their time trying to do down the other. They would not be focussed on trying to outdo one another, after all they are Lesser, but instead, they would rather try and do the other down, which will therefore mean that if the competitor is beneath them they must, by default, be above them. It is a tumultuous relationship of insults, accusations and even violence towards one another which will either lead to the pair being split up so there is no interaction or both being dismissed.

What of two Lessers interacting as tertiary sources, say one is a customer in a restaurant and the other is a waiter? They may, as strangers, get away with a brief dollop of positive fuel for one another. The waiter is pleasant and the customer thanks him. If the interaction is brief they can both get away with this small amount of positive fuel. If the interaction becomes longer there is an increased risk of them igniting one another’s fury. The customer Lesser perceives a criticism through slow service and insults the waiter. He reacts to this and throws a drink over the customer. Both gain an instant hit of fuel and then the interaction is over, again most likely through the intervention of third parties. The two Lessers, even as tertiary sources, cannot exist alongside one another for long before one tries to draw fuel from the other. The low control threshold of the Lesser means that any interaction with another Lesser, either family, socially, work wise or interacting as strangers will result in a flare-up between the two.

Finally, what about two Lessers coming together in the context of an intimate relationship? Can two Lessers have one another as intimate partner primary sources? There is a risk of them trying to seduce one another because of their inability to recognise one another and their lower cognitive function, meaning they may not pick up as readily on the lack of empathic traits. The seduction may commence but then not be concluded as both instinctively find that the other is not providing the fuel that they will need and therefore the seduction is broken off. They have enough instinct to know that the person they have started to seduce will not have what is required and therefore they decide not to proceed with the seduction.

There may however be occasions where two Lessers become locked together in a romantic relationship and seek to make the other an IPPS. This is unusual but can happen because of the following:-

 

1.      Both have suffered escapes from empathic IPPSs and therefore have been plunged into Chaos Mode. With no pending IPPS in play, they are desperate to find one and thus inadvertently hook up with one another because of their desperate need for fuel. Their weakened state and desperation will cause them to be far less instinctively choosy; and/or

2.      They feign the appearance of empathic traits in order to trap the target and owing to the lower cognitive function (and especially if there is no other primary source fuel provision to hand) they fail to detect that this is false and are thus initially conned.

Where two Lessers “fall” for one another in such circumstances the nature of the relationship will be turbulent and short-lived. Initially, continuing the seduction,they will provide limited positive fuel to one another. This is because given their lesser energy levels, they will be focused on keeping the beast within under control rather than laying on the charm and magnetism. Accordingly, there is not so much a Golden Period but rather a Bronze Period. This poor positive fuel provision will make both Lessers restless, irritable and struggling to keep the beast under control. They may be pleasant to the other in order to try to draw positive fuel but when it is not forthcoming, because of course they are dealing with their own kind who EXPECTS to receive the compliments and sees no reason to return them and their low control threshold means that the lack of decent fuel will bring about devaluation very quickly.

Accordingly, the Bronze Period between two Lessers who have appointed one another as an IPPS will be short-lived and will plummet towards devaluation. Both will lash out at the other and this is when some decent fuel will be forthcoming as they erupt in a fury with another. Unfortunately for them the ignition of the fury means that they need fuel to replace that used up by the fury and therefore there will be an explosive eruption between the two and then they will be forced to withdraw. They will seek fuel elsewhere and once sated return to one another only for the next explosion to occur. So long as the Lessers can draw fuel from other sources and keep erupting with another, a turbulent and vitriolic period of devaluation will occur and will continue until one or both find a far more viable fuel source.

Let us say that Lesser A, finding the fuel from Lesser B to be highly unsatisfactory, finds an empathic secondary source and commences an affair. The fuel is far superior to that being provided by Lesser B. Lesser A moves to promote the empathic secondary source to become an IPPS. Lesser A has found the viable fuel source and thus will discard Lesser B. Thereafter, Lesser A will focus on the new IPPS and have no regard for Lesser B. Lesser B perceives the loss of his IPPS as a criticism, his fury is ignited and he will apply an Initial Grand Hoover to try to win back Lesser A. This will fail. Lesser A will resist the hoover because of what he is and also because he will infatuated with the new primary source. Lesser B may well lash out at Lesser A through this ignited fury but will be forced quickly to find an alternative primary source. Once secured, Lesser B having also found a fresh empathic primary source will focus on her. Accordingly, Lessers A and B will have no regard for one another and will not hoover, even when they devalue their new-found empathic primary sources because the Hoover Execution Criteria bar will be raised high because of the poor fuel provision they experienced.

Accordingly, in the romantic sense the collision of two Lessers is rare and if it does happen the relationship will be chaotic, brutal and moreover short-lived with the two unlikely to cross paths purposefully again thereafter.

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cherished

Understanding the narcissist is the key to achieving freedom from his or her manipulative wiles. Few people achieve it because the world view of the narcissist is distinctly different from that of other people. People make the mistake of regarding the actions and words of the narcissist from their own perspective. Once they regard these actions through the narcissistic lens then comprehension and knowledge can be achieved. How is this done? It is done by reading all about how the narcissist thinks and behaves, how he regards situations and why he responds in the way that he or she does. A series of observations awaits here which will give you further insight into the narcissistic mind direct from the narcissist himself and in turn you will gain knowledge. A useful and insightful tool that will assist you in grappling with the perversions and delinquencies of the narcissistic mind and thereafter enable you to achieve understanding and ultimately freedom.

 

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A LETTER TO THE NARCISSIST.jpg

I’ve decided to make it work with him. I’ve got a good life. I know you don’t agree. You don’t see the value in our relationship or in being a stay-at-home mom? You say I’m not capable of getting and keeping a job. Interesting, tell me again what your record length of time holding a position is? Do you remember mine?

I’ve shared my goals, and my hobbies, as well as my values. I’m no longer interested in trying to control how you see me. I’ve listened to you mention various women and how you didn’t think she’d amount to anything and now, “she’s selling expensive paintings…she’s a therapist…she’s a pharmacist…she’s a nurse married to a Dr….” I’ll be one of those girls you have talked about. I don’t need you to believe in me anymore, just like they didn’t. I noted that you didn’t seem happy for any of them, in fact, you seemed almost annoyed. 

You told me once that you’re a chameleon. I believe you now. Deep down, you’re empty. You know I’m not and that makes you angry. You can’t stand the thought that I gave up everything for you then you destroyed us and he took me back. He gives me a life that you can’t even aside from money and that drives you mad. It pisses you off that I could really love him and try to make him happy, even though you pushed me away. You chose your choices. With me, with everyone. You destroy your relationships and never apologize for one single thing. You know I’m right too so you’re going to give me the silent treatment. 

I know your tactics. I know what you are. Nobody means anything to you. People are like chess pieces. You manipulate to gather information. No direct questions. You don’t give direct answers. No ability to build or maintain a relationship. Only judgements and criticism. You can’t face anything that you’ve done and you want me to be responsible for all of it. 

I can be honest. I can and do admit to my fuck-ups. I own my part, he knows this, and we’ll work through it. He was right about you. You knew it too, that is why you couldn’t stand for us to be amicable. You are jealous of him. You say he’s a fool. Maybe you’re just a mean fuck-boy that had a normal life and likes to cry.  You love attention. Go log on to eharmony, any hoe will do. Did you ever think if I’m so awful, why does he try so hard to keep me? Didn’t you stop to think, maybe I give him what I offered you? You know the life you relentlessly pursued then threw away like garbage as soon as I was pregnant with the baby you said you wanted. 

Go find someone else to conquer. To numb your pain. You know you want to go slap a band-aid on it. Find someone to tell you everything you want to hear, find someone to listen to you embellish how horrible I am. I hope someone is free quick. I wish you luck finding someone else that will put as much effort and love into you as I have. I knew you were disordered and I still tried everything to support you. You don’t believe me? Narcsite.com. You fit the description of a Lower/Middle Mid-Range Narcissist with a mix of somatic/victim traits. All those times I empathized and tried to relate to you? Well, I am a dirty empath, you’ll find me. I can face that and I can fix it. 

It’ll take a long time for him to trust me. I have lost quite a bit of freedom. Yes, he knows everywhere I go. No, that doesn’t bother me. I still see my friends. Does that drive you crazy that he has that much control over me and you don’t? Have you ever wondered he knows where you are? That one day when your guard is down, maybe you’ll get the ass beating you’re so paranoid about? Probably because it happened to you before, and you won’t know where it came from because you fuck everyone over. 

You’re a prisoner of your dysfunction. I am not the prisoner you say I am. I’m happier than you’ll ever be. The thing is, you’re too scared to be happy. You shouldn’t be mad at me. You got what you wanted. I gave it all I had and you didn’t want it. So move on. Fuck as many women as you want and call it dating. Make them think you love them. It’ll be a good life for you. Hopefully, when you get that third nose job one of them will help you out again. 

 

why-wont

If you find yourself receiving the repeated attentions of somebody, there is a solid chance that this person is a narcissist and one of our kind. The attention that is being given to you may take a variety of different forms. It may manifest as complimenting you, offering to take you out for dinner, asking you for a date, sending you amorous texts, leaving gifts at your workplace, standing and watching you, driving past your house repeatedly, damaging your property, covering your car in battery acid, throwing pain at your windows, calling you names, repeatedly ringing your phone and not speaking and a thousand other different ways. To an outsider some of these behaviors may have the appearance of trying to seduce you and others are clearly designed to frighten and intimidate. Ultimately, both will be unwelcome and the individual who keeps persisting in this behavior is more often than not a narcissist. You may have worked this out and you are entirely clear as to what they are as they try to draw you back into the relationship or make your life a living hell. It is highly unlikely that you will know that the first time seducer is actually one of us, no matter how persistent that person is. You are far more likely to decide that the person is infatuated, obsessed, a stalker or a bit odd. Narcissist is not going to be the label you apply. Not when it happens for the first time.

Why then do we engage in such persistent behaviour? Why do we try and seduce and woo you into entering into a Formal Relationship, to draw you back in to one or just to make your life a misery?

  1. The First Seduction

It may seem pleasant at first to receive this attention even though you are not interested and with a smile you turn down the overtures of the office Romeo. He persists in keep asking you out. He is always polite and charming but you do not wish to say no. You may have a partner already, not be interested in dating or just find this person not to your liking. You keep rebuffing this person, sometimes more firmly than on other occasions but he will not take no for an answer. There should be a picture of this man or woman in the dictionary under ‘persistence’. They are never horrible, never nasty but you start to get that sensation of dread now whenever you see him or her coming down the corridor towards you, or walking down your garden path or their number appears on your ‘phone. You do not want to be unpleasant about it, because you can see they are, apparently, a pleasant person, but it is starting to become something that is unwelcome. Why will this person not get the message.

  1. Our sense of entitlement means that if we decide we want something, then we get it. It does not matter what anybody else says or wants, we are entitled to do what we want. We want to seduce you and make you our primary appliance. Accordingly, we will keep going until we achieve this or we decide against doing so. What you say to us or what a third party might do will not dissuade us.
  2. We do not recognise boundaries and therefore we can come and park our tanks on your lawn. We want you as an extension of ourselves and we do not regard there as being any boundary to prevent us from doing so.
  3. You have been identified by us as a potentially brilliant source of fuel. We undertake planning before we make our move and also rely on instinct in identifying those who serve out needs the most effectively. The extent of the planning will vary dependent on the type of narcissist, but one way or another you have been spotted as a supertanker of fuel and we want that fuel, thus you have to become our primary source. The prize is well worth expending the effort. Thus, if you cannot understand why we just keep going and going, you may wish to consider whether it is who you are that is attracting us to such a degree. You may think you are something of a catch and viewed by the ‘normals’ you are, but to us it is your status as a provider of fuel that has caught our eye. This behaviour appears mainly by Mid-Range and Greater Narcissists because they are able to last longer using secondary sources for their fuel supply whilst they continue the hunt with you.
  4. It may be that the way you are engaging with us, even though you are trying to tell us that you are not interested, is what continues to have us pressing you. If you smile when we appear with some flowers and you thank us for them but politely let us know you do not want a date, you are still giving us fuel. If you giggle with your friends when we perform some silly romantic gesture at the door of your workplace, then we receive fuel. Even if you show irritation or perhaps begin to shout that we should leave you alone, you are providing fuel. This both sustains us and encourages us.
  5. A further alternative is that we are obtaining fuel elsewhere, this is most likely to be from devaluing the current primary appliance and so long as this fuel is being provided then the pursuit will continue. We can keep chipping away at your resistance for a long time, since we are getting fueled elsewhere and this is sustaining our endeavours to secure you as the replacement primary source. If there is any kind of engagement on your behalf, even if fuel is not being provided, although it usually is, you are providing encouragement that a breakthrough may occur.

How then do you stop this narcissist from keep trying to seduce you? You need to give NoFuC. This stands for No Fuel Carrier. You must shut off the fuel, avoid any engagement and demonstrate that there will be no fuel provided. You will not smile, you will not say thanks but no thanks, you will not tell us to piss off or shout angrily for us to leave us alone. You will not accept the gifts, you will not acknowledge us, you will block all calls and insert gatekeepers where you can. By giving NoFuC, the narcissist who was gaining fuel from the interaction will break off and go elsewhere. If there is no means of contact, or very little, this combined with an absence of fuel will also dissuade us. If we are gaining fuel still elsewhere, if it is impossible or hard to contact you and there is no evidence of fuel being available, we are likely to test your resolve but ultimately with no potential for fuel, we will shift out focus somewhere else.

Ensuring you give NoFuC and doing so consistently is the key to dissuading the narcissist who is trying to seduce you for the first time. This is of course if you are fortunate enough not to be interested, since nearly all targets are interested and thus susceptible to being seduced and that you recognise what you are dealing with.

  1. Post Escape

In this instance you are more likely, albeit not guaranteed, to know that you are dealing with one of our kind. What is happening when we will not leave you alone when you have escaped us?

  1. You may be experiencing the Initial Grand Hoover. If the attempts to contact you and establish the Formal Relationship again are taking place soon after your escape, they are intense and repeated in nature and you feel like you are under siege, then this is the IGH. To deal with this you need to maintain no contact and sit the blitzkrieg out. Dependent on the type of narcissist you are dealing with and the availability of other fuel sources, the IGH can be sustained for a number of weeks. More usually it is a concentrated blast over a week or so and then if your resolve holds, there will be a respite as we withdraw and seek fuel elsewhere to recover from the diminution in our supply caused by your escape. You need to put your tin hat on and hunker down.
  2. If it is not the IFH but the behaviour towards you is pleasant and/or aimed at getting you to come back to us, you are experiencing a Benign Follow Up Hoover. The BFUH can happen repeatedly too. It is less intense but can appear on and off over years. Why is this happening?

Firstly, you must be activating the Hoover Trigger by entering one of the five spheres of influence. Are you responding to messages, are you contacting the narcissist about something, are you passing near where he lives or works, are you fraternizing with people who know him or her? You need to ascertain which sphere or spheres of influence you are entering and stay out of them.

If you do this and the BFUHs keep happening, then you are appearing in the sixth sphere which is our mind. Usually this is only sporadic because we will be occupied with other fuel sources, but it can be the case that if you were/are a particularly good fuel source once you appear in the sixth sphere you become lodged there and the trigger keeps getting activated.

That alone of course is not enough to bring about the hoover. The Hoover Execution Criteria has to be met as well. It is obviously being met if you keep experiencing these BFUHs and what usually causes the criteria to be met is that some fuel is being provided which encourages us to keep pressing for more.

You need to ascertain how this fuel is being caused. There are three potential reasons

Proximate Fuel – you are having some interaction with us which allows us to draw fuel from you. This might be when you are passing where we work, when there is a handover of children or such like. This will then allow the criteria to be easily met and thus you can expect BFUHs to occur. Turn off the provision of proximate fuel. Avoid us or where that is not possible, ensure no or very little fuel is provided when there is proximate interaction.

Thought Fuel – we may be encouraged by the Thought Fuel that we obtain from perceiving how you are reacting to our interactions. If we believe, based on previous experience, you will smile when you get the flowers or you will think back to when we were together when we drop a CD of a certain song through your letterbox, this will encourage us. Thought Fuel has a limited shelf life and if it is this which is giving us the encouragement, by sitting it out, its effect will dissipate and the criteria will no longer be met.

Proxy Fuel – you have a traitor in your camp. It may be someone well-intentioned or someone deliberately spying on you, but this individual is feeding to us your reactions to what we are doing. We do not see your emotional reaction, we do not purely envisage it, but someone is telling us that you keep talking about us, you get upset when our name is mentioned and so forth. This encourages us and allows the criteria to be met. You need to work out who this is and prevent them from relaying this information to us, either through asking them to stop or more usually by not giving them the information in the first place.

If you halt the trigger and even if you have a narcissist who is stuck in the sixth sphere, if you prevent the provision of the above types of fuel, this will be more likely to prevent the criteria being met. No trigger or a trigger and no criteria being met means no more hoovers and you will be left alone.

  1. The Malign Follow-Up Hoover

There is no desire to resurrect the Formal Relationship. We do not want positive fuel from you in any event. We want to hurt you, make you cry, make you angry, make you scared. Whatever it is, we want your negative response as this will allow us to draw negative fuel from you and also punish you.

Again, prevent the triggers by staying out the sphere of influence. The Malign FUH causes a real problem because the narcissist may remain stuck in the sixth sphere through malice and if he is gaining fuel from a new primary source, there is a greater risk of the narcissist having sufficient fuel to keep trying with you. Thus with the malign FUH the threshold for the hoover execution criteria is often lower. This is why when you have somebody who is doling out malign FUHs against you, it can appear overwhelming, incessant and frenzied. The thought fuel is also stronger with this type of FUH.

Avoid the triggers. If you are and they are still happening, it is clear the sixth sphere is being activated. Make yourself hard to contact, avoid providing fuel as described above and eventually the need for fuel and the lack of it from you, will cause you to be left alone, but you should be aware that the propensity to be stuck in the sixth sphere, the availability of other fuel and the lowered criteria threshold can result in a very rough ride for some people, not all, but some.

  1. Post discard

There will be no IGH when this happens because we chose to discard you. You will face Benign FUHs and/or Malign FUHs dependent on the type of narcissist and the prevailing situation. The same considerations apply as described above.

Ultimately, we will not leave you alone because of the prospect of fuel and the taste of fuel that is being provided in the meanwhile. This is what drives us to keep harassing, contacting and pestering you, but as ever, there are steps you can take. Understand why it is happening and then you can establish what action needs to be taken. It may be maintaining your defences, preserving no contact and sitting out the storm or it may also require proactive steps on your part.