I Second That Emotion



The emotional spectrum afforded to my kind is limited. The bulk of the positive emotions that you experience have either been stripped away or moulded into one all-pervasive sensation and that is of power. Whereas you might experience joy, elation, happiness and delight, we feel power. That surging sensation which courses through us as a consequence of the receipt of fuel, be it positive or negative. Secure a promotion? I feel powerful. My football team wins? I feel powerful. I seduce a new victim? I feel powerful. I experience amusement, indeed, I have an excellent sense of humour but if I make you laugh through my sense of humour I feel a sense of power once again.

I do not feel sadness. I have, for the sake of gathering fuel, sat through numerous films which are described as tear-jerkers and entertained myself as I have alternated between watching the film and the reaction of the person, invariably an intimate partner, as their expression alters to one of compassion, sympathy and then the tears to begin to flow. I have watched the same film yet I feel nothing. I recognise that the scenes played out by the relevant actors are ones which would be labelled as moving, sad and upsetting, but I feel nothing. When I shift my gaze to the sobbing intimate partner besides me, I begin to feel something. I feel contempt for the weakness exhibited by becoming upset. Not only the fact that these tears flow at all but because they have been generated by acting. How readily people fall prey to what is acting, but I am thankful for that, because if they did not, my existence would be far more difficult. I experience a degree of amusement, because someone is moved by something which is not even real. At least when the tears fall because a pet has been run over in the street, or because a relative has exhaled their last breath on this earth, there is a genuine event which causes grief. Yet, it is always in others. You could flash a montage of images, snippets of footage which encapsulate what people would regard as tear-inducing responses, be they grief or joy and I would remain unmoved. It means nothing to me. The capacity to feel sadness, grief, woe and misery have been removed. I knew them once. I can vaguely remember, or at least I think I can remember, being sad. I do not know what the feeling is but I recall the image from the depths of my memory.

I do not know guilt. Remorse is a stranger to me. I feel no regret nor penitence. Compassion has never been available to me. As for empathy, I do not feel that either. I am, because of my heightened abilities and intelligence, able to understand how people must feel. I have spent many years watching and observing the way that people react to certain situations. I understand when happiness is expressed, I know when regret should be exhibited, I recognise when sadness should make an appearance but I do not feel any of them. If I see you in pain, I know I should demonstrate a concerned expression for you and ask how you are. That is the accepted societal expectation. During my seduction of you, I will indeed adopt that mask of concern and compassion in order to con you into thinking that I am a caring and warm person. I can don the mask which places my facial expression in the correct places. I am able to adopt the appropriate tone of voice and place my hands on you in the gentle manner which is associated with expressing concern for somebody yet despite all these learned expressions, words and gestures I feel no concern for you. I do not feel sorry for you, I do not share your pain, I am not worried about you. I know however that if I am to bind you to me and to extract fuel from you, through your expression of thanks and your gratitude for my apparent care of you, I am obligated to place the mask of compassion on. Of course, as such time as your devaluation commences, I see no need for the pretence and indeed my lack of compassion provides its own reward as your pain is increased by my dismissive attitude, refusal to help and contemptuous sneer.

The Lesser of our kind often do not even know what mask should be adopted and during the seduction stage rather than clumsily grope for an appropriate mask, they will prefer to vacate themselves from the situation, conjuring up some excuse as to why they cannot stay and help. The Mid-Range and the Greater of our kind understand that certain responses are preferred by you and therefore the masks will be brought forth and worn, but only in order to achieve what we want. If the situation dictates that our interests are better served without donning a mask, then that is what will happen.

People often make the mistake of assuming that we are totally devoid of emotion. That is wrong. Yes, there are many emotions, as I have explained above, which we do not possess, but we are not empty of all emotion. I know only too well the emotions of hate, malice, frustration, annoyance, irritation, shame, envy, fury and jealousy. Why am I afforded these emotions and not others? In my discussions with the good doctors and my own consideration of these matters it is evident that in my evolution to what I am, it is necessary for me to have these emotions because they are the catalyst for causing me to behave in the way that I do so I will drive forward, that I will be brilliant, charming and seductive, that I will be outrageous, grandiose, belligerent and destructive, because ultimately all of those things must exist in order to compel me to gather the precious fuel.

If I did not become envious of those in my social circle praising a friend, I would not feel compelled to draw the spotlight of attention on to me by upstaging that person, telling a glorious anecdote or causing a scene. If I was not jealous I would not take those steps and thus I would be denied fuel.

If I was not envious of my neighbour’s new sports car, I would not be driven to throw battery acid over it during the night and then watch from the window his horrified reaction on seeing the damage the next day. Again, I would gain no fuel.

If I felt no hatred towards you for failing me, I would feel no need to keep doling out the various prejudicial and abusive manipulations. Thus you would not be hurt, upset or frightened and I would gain no fuel.

If I felt no malice towards the world and its treatment of me, I would not be compelled to seduce people to provide me with that shield from the world and its outrageous injustices.

It is these negative emotions, the Dark Motivators, which cause me to always be driving forward. The absence of The Hindrances – remorse, guilt, empathy, regret etc. – means that I am not stopped or slowed in my ever onward march. I am not distracted from the sole and necessary task of gathering fuel.

This approach does not mean that my life is less fuel. I am still able to appreciate much that is beautiful, engaging, fascinating and scintillating in this world. I can appreciate the grandeur of centuries old architecture. I can appreciate the magnificence of a musical composition. I can appreciate the athletic prowess of a sprinter to win a gold medal at the Olympics. I can appreciate the taste of excellent cuisine. I can do this because of my higher function above others of my kind who have little or no interest in such spectacular elements of the world. Whereas you will enjoy the piece of music in that moment, I am using the experience of that piece of music to further my aims.

  1. I may tell you how brilliant a song is because I know that you will be pleased with me for telling you this and thus you will smile, appreciate me and give me fuel;
  2. I may use the experience of having heard the philharmonic orchestra play Scheherazade in order to boast about it to other people and draw fuel from their admiring and/or jealous responses;
  3. I may use the experience of knowing all of Depeche Mode’s music to be appealing to a target because she likes that music too, or just to demonstrate that I have a detailed interest in a particular band so that I am of greater interest to her;
  4. I may use the experience of having heard a particular song in concert to trump your tale about having heard a different one played in order to assert my superiority over you and draw a reaction from you and others.

You experience certain emotions when engaging in certain experiences. I experience a sense of power in that moment or if I do not, I store the experience to use it feel powerful when it is allied with something else, usually an appliance.

My kind mimic emotions because we are unable to feel so many of them. Thus we will second the emotions that we have seen you exhibit and make it seem as if we feel them. I know many of your emotions; I do not feel them. We second your emotions because we are reliant on your emotions to exist. It is something of a paradox that we have never cultivated certain emotions and/or we have been stripped of them in order to make us lean, effective and efficient, yet we also must receive those emotions from you in order to sustain us. We do not want to see your joy directed towards us for something we have said and done because we will then feel joy, but rather for the power that is unleashed as a consequence of your joy providing us with positive fuel.

I am filled with hatred, jealousy, envy, fury and malice but that does not mean there is no room to accept your hatred towards me, indeed I welcome it. As a consequence of my manipulation of you, I want you to stand there screaming your hatred at me until your voice is hoarse and your eyes stand out from your face. The fuel I gain from such an intense expression of negative emotion is immense. Once again I appropriate your emotion and use it for my own purposes. Whether I take it in order to allow me to mimic and copy it, to make me appear more acceptable to other people or whether I seize your emotion as fuel in order to power me and allow my existence to continue, I will always find a use for your emotional output. I put to good use your emotions.

I am the ultimate recycler.

81 thoughts on “I Second That Emotion

  1. AndressBonifacio says:


  2. MommyPino says:

    “ If I felt no hatred towards you for failing me, I would feel no need to keep doling out the various prejudicial and abusive manipulations. Thus you would not be hurt, upset or frightened and I would gain no fuel.

    If I felt no malice towards the world and its treatment of me, I would not be compelled to seduce people to provide me with that shield from the world and its outrageous injustices.”

    HG regarding the first quoted paragraph, does that mean negative fuel is something that satiates your dark emotions such as hatred or jealousy?

    Regarding the second quoted paragraph, does that mean the motivation to acquire positive fuel is to satiate the negative emotions of malice towards the world and finding shield or safety from that person you are seducing? At this point you are genuinely infatuated to the person you are seducing but I will be surprised if the motivation for the acquisition of positive fuel is still coming from a dark emotion rather than the positive emotion of being infatuated to that person. If that is the case then it is really a big difference between a narcissist and a non narcissist.

    For my third question, If I remember correctly from Fuel, negative fuel is more potent than positive. Is it because the dark emotions that negative fuel is satiating is stronger than the emotions positive fuel is satiating? I am not sure if satiating is the right word but it is the closest to what I am imagining fuel’s function is for you. Do I have a wrong idea?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Negative fuel powers the construct and in some instances indicates control. Fuel does not satisfy hatred or jealousy. The emotions of hatred and jealousy are seized upon by the narcissism and used as a basis for obtaining fuel and control.

      Positive fuel does not satiate the negative emotions.

      Negative fuel is more powerful than positive fuel for the reasons explained in Fuel.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        hmmm interesting but if a narcissist was feeling jealous, for example lets say a NISS bought a new car which was newer, higher spec, more stylish etc than the narcs.

        The narc then brags how they are saving up for one (going to get themselves in a shitload of debt for one and buy something suitably gas guzzling which will sit on their driveway because they can’t afford the running costs – alexis laughs) and will likely purchase, just so that they can have the ‘best’ car.

        Essentially trying to put the NISS down so they are still on top, does such an action not at least abate the Ns jealousy?

        thanks very much

        1. HG Tudor says:

          As I explained, jealousy drives the assertion of control and the acquisition of fuel. If the narcissist tries to put the NISS down but the NISS does not comply, control has not been obtained. If the NISS gets upset or exhibits jealousy themselves at the narcissists bragging, this is fuel and the narcissist has obtained control.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            hahahah oooh lovely, so when a bragger keeps bragging it’s because they haven’t yet asserted control. that’s incredibly helpful thank you.

            So the jealousy is still there? even when they have asserted the control? I do apologise, I know I’m struggling with something which is probably very simple for others to understand.

          2. Empath007 says:

            This scenario happens a lot with a narc co worker whom I occasionally have to interact with. Their obsession with one upping people in the past used to be confusing to me! Now it’s not, so I just let them do their thing, at times i’ll Even fake agree “oh yes, you have the best xyz” it’s taken a load offf my shoulders by not caring about it anymore. All thanks to you H.G.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome. When you agree, you provide fuel and control. Most narcissists would not detect it is insincere (at least at first) and therefore the provision of fuel and control is effective.

          4. blackcoffee30 says:

            I think this happens fairly often. They can be oblivious to insincerity.

          5. alexissmith2016 says:

            @Empath007 I couldn’t hit reply. Oh god I find it hilarious when Ns don’t pick up on the subtletis of our responses. Like when people even smurk directly in front of them and they lap it up thinking they’re genuinely adoring them or whatever.

            Empaths can be naive but oh narcs can too – just in a different way.

          6. mommypino says:

            “ Empaths can be naive but oh narcs can too – just in a different way.”

            So true. From what I have observed their inability to pick up on cues are usually caused by a combination of their extreme grandiosity and lack of empathy. For empaths some of the cause of that is usually a bad combination of inexperience and positivity or optimism which causes the ET to interpret things inaccurately.

          7. blackcoffee30 says:

            TRUST. My trust did me in. #trustnobitch I let myself down on that one.

          8. mommypino says:


            I felt that way many times before but it hurts to not trust as it seems to be a part of my core.

            Thankfully I found HG’s works which helps me learn and figure out which people are safe to trust and which people are not.

          9. blackcoffee30 says:

            Yup. I imagine sometimes they think it unfathomable that we could be mocking them.

          10. Violetta says:

            This describes my Bestest Frenemy in Jr. High to a tee. After her 1st marriage fell apart, she apparently moved back to her parents’ and my mother kept pushing me to contact her. “The number for her business is the same as her parents’ residence. Why don’t you call her?” She came from a “nice” family (meaning well-off and socially prominent), and my mother refused to acknowledge that I wasn’t going to spend my adult life being ‘Umbly Grateful that Ms. Perfect was willing to let a little dweeb like me bask in her reflected glory.

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            I find it hard as an empath to imagine being insincere. Is it just me?

            I called on all my narcissistic traits to bring my narc down via manipulation, but it also took all I had to do that. And I didn’t feel good about it, I just knew I had to do it.

          12. mommypino says:

            Hi lickemtomorrow, it is hard becabuse you are going against your nature. Conscience and empathy puts an automatic break to that so it slows it down or stops it. However there are times that we might meet someone with zero redeeming value and the conscience gets dominated by a rationalized reason for punishing that person. I have experienced it once in my life, the peeping Tom that I mentioned on the other thread because his maid who was a minor and was living with them also told me that he molested her and that I should be cautious of him. So when he crossed my boundaries he was just as valuable as a cockroach for me to step on and have been manipulative to punish him with steady determination. Although that was when I was just 15-16 at that time so I was more impulsive. In normal circumstances it is difficult for me too so GOSO is the best approach that works for me.

          13. Gina G says:

            HG, why don’t narcissists get most subtleties? Not just in humor but otherwise as well. I’ve noticed this both with my father a lesser and my ex-spouse a mid-ranger.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Too subtle for certain narcissists to learn, so they have not done so and therefore miss it when used by others.

          15. Gina says:

            HG, for some reason I cannot reply directly to your reply about some narcissists not understanding subtleties. My mother, a MMR Elite, did understand subtleties whereas my cerebral MMR ex didn’t. I think that the possible difference is my mother’s placing great importance on flirting/sexual interaction with the opposite sex. She was much more sexual, always unfaithful. So I’m thinking this “understanding” of subtleties served her purposes more and therefore she learned them. My ex however is extremely awkward at flirting and never initiated sex, so the subtleties may not have been as important for him. He is much more comfortable charming people with his self assumed brilliance on all topics.

      2. mommypino says:

        “ The emotions of hatred and jealousy are seized upon by the narcissism and used as a basis for obtaining fuel and control.

        Positive fuel does not satiate the negative emotions.”

        Thank you so much for your answer H.G. I cannot imagine how I could seize my dark emotions and use them as a driving force to obtain something. My dark emotions normally demoralize or act as distractions for me and I do not have the ability to seize them and use them instead I need to find ways to alleviate or ignore them. Also another difference is that for me positive fuel or interactions with people have the ability to satiate whatever dark emotions I have. For example a nice conversation with a friend enables me to feel better after someone has been mean to me and it enables me to heal somehow from the previous negative interaction or experience. It’s really interesting how different narcissists function.

        1. blackcoffee30 says:

          Thank you MP, I trusted all the men I’d ever loved, but never again. It’s broken.

          1. mommypino says:

            Blackcoffee, It’s totally normal to feel that way. As you heal and learn here that there are many people that you can trust and develop the confidence in your abilities to see the red flags you will be able to go back to your old normal self except much more wiser.

  3. MommyPino says:

    I just got done listening to your 20 likes and hates and I thoroughly enjoyed listening and I was laughing during your 20 hates. I know that I am particularly guilty of number six because of a bad habit even though I totally know that it is wrong so it felt like I was being scolded although in a funny way. I was laughing at my own absurdity.

    The way you described your likes reminded me of how my sister described the things that she liked. She also had an amazing command of her words and I believe she also belonged in the Elite cadre although she was a MR. When she described the things that she loved it was in the same manner of very detailed description and I remember that I often felt that I had to have the same thing because it is the best and nothing else compares. But she also had the ability to dislike something so fast and out of the blue that it perplexed me as to how someone can like something with a passion and all of a sudden not care about it or toss it away even though it is still working or still looks good. I have also noticed that whenever she underwent transformations with fashion she didn’t just buy a few new items of clothing but she would throw or give away a lot of her clothes and accessories and buy a new entire wardrobe. Like a snake shedding its entire skin. There were a few things though that she never stopped liking until the end such as her Dyson Animal vacuum.

    Another confusing thing about her is also her ability to all of a sudden like or love something with a passion and claim that she has always loved it. For example when we were going through our dad’s basement and saw a vintage Marilyn Monroe nude calendar which was supposed to be worth a lot of money and our brother decided to give it as a gift to our cousin who is a biker and has a thing for vintage posters she got so angry. She said that she had always loved Marilyn Monroe since she was little. Our brother was so confused because he never remembered her being into Marilyn Monroe when they were growing up together which made her even more angry at him for not remembering it. She has never mentioned that to me either.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am pleased you enjoyed it.

  4. truthseeker6157 says:

    Hey BC30, I see what you mean now, thanks for coming back to it.

    I would hazard a guess that HG would describe the feeling of fuel just as ‘power’. Better quality fuel, more power, tertiary fuel, less power. I’m not great with power ha ha. It isn’t a motivator for me so I can’t really imagine how it feels in terms of fuel. I often try to distill from HG exactly how something feels for him, I’m glad I’m not the only one trying to find out the same thing. We have a broader emotional range across the board, we feel across the entire spectrum and to a higher intensity, so within the limits of language we can describe it. HG undoubtedly feels powerful. I’m not sure I could fully relate to how power feels to him though.

    Point 3. Yes, me too, I often wonder if HG actually can identify what he actually does like for himself. I’ve come to the conclusion rightly or wrongly that yes he can. Essentially, he is acting when interacting with others. He will say or do pretty much anything if it aids the achievement of the Prime Aims. You can act but still know you are acting. He can taste a cheap champagne and recognise he doesn’t like it. In my view, this man knows exactly what he likes and doesn’t like. But if he’s seducing, the cheap champagne will be nectar from the gods. Devaluing it becomes dishwater. His range of tolerance is high during seduction and practically non existent during devaluation. That likely impacts him more in terms of identifying likes and dislikes. It’s a question of priorities. A narcissist will sell out for fuel.

    We self fuel. Narcissists don’t. Emotions fuel the prime aims for them. No available emotional input means situation critical. Playing a role is an excellent defence. They do it most of their waking lives. If there’s no crowd to play to, no reaction, no fuel to be gained, then self doubt creeps in and the creature starts to howl. Musicians are similar. Robbie Williams has spoken of depression. They have months of touring, burst on to stages with an electrifying atmosphere. Imagine the energy that he can feel from the crowd. That’s tangible, before we even start on the adoration side. Then the tour ends, he goes home. No playing of the role of superstar. No energy to draw from the crowd, no adoration, just him, the man, eating his dinner, taking a shower, normal. It is no wonder these people take a massive dip down. It’s no surprise you see so many narcissists in the entertainment industry. ( I suspect our friend Robbie is one and the depression is actually a fuel crisis)

    Ex forces, similar. Institutionalised, ordered, never alone, always with similar minded people, high adrenaline activity. They leave and often just cannot adapt to civilian life. They are on their own, no one telling them what to do. No structure, no adrenaline, no camaraderie, just the man, eating his dinner, taking a shower, normal. Both groups are reliant on others to achieve a certain high or level of contentment. Both groups struggle when no longer in a role. I think the quest for fuel feels a bit like that.

    Fuel is a specific requirement for narcissists. Normals and empaths don’t need it. There are similarities though to this need for fuel and emotion that are comparable to an extent I think. I do believe narcissists know what they like, know what they think, know what they want and in some ways are better designed to get it. For me, the fact that they have to undertake the almost daily hunt for fuel ( HG can go a bit longer solo), they have to play this role for fuel, they have to sell themselves out to make themselves into the thing that someone else wants for fuel, they even prostitute themselves in the bedroom during seduction, again for fuel and this feeling of ‘power’, for me it is an incredibly high price for anyone to have to pay, simply ‘to exist’.

    1. truthseeker6157 says:

      Put this in the wrong place again, sorry!

    2. blackcoffee30 says:

      1. HG writes, “one all-pervasive sensation” so I guess power manifests as one sensation whereas ours change. However, negative emotions like jealousy, I imagine, are felt much like ours, as differing sensations.

      2. “In my view, this man knows exactly what he likes and doesn’t like.” No. HG is an ultra and far and away an exception. Remember my dislike for fish example? HG said that was part of #2’s “false self.” Everything is the false self even if is something that does not seemingly arise as a direct result of obtaining fuel.

      3. That’s the thing, without fuel they don’t exist. The Creature cannot steer the ship. It’s irrevocably stunted and locked away. The Prime Aims and Fuel are what the baby seeks in an effort to “control” the caregiver and establish a “connection” but the connection is a lie, it does not develop as it should. The baby ends up thinking everyone is an extension of themselves. Narcissism, is a last ditch effort to not wither away and die, which babies will do if they have no human contact despite feedings and diapering.

      There is no agent. There is nothing true. The person we know and interact with, does not exist.

      1. truthseeker6157 says:

        I’m entering into the realm of guesswork here BC30 ha ha. You clearly have way more knowledge as to the narcissistic condition than I. I haven’t read research on child development etc.

        From what I see and to a degree the articles I have read here, there are numerous masks that HG wears. The HG we see here is often likely just one of those masks. That said, I do see humour and I also see evidence of likes and dislikes. I believe those to be genuine. There is less need to play a role here than in real life so I think a percentage of the time we really do see ‘ the real HG’. Humour is a funny one ( sorry). Very difficult to portray humour as someone else. Does he know how to play a room? Of course he does, but the reaction to humour, seeing the opportunity to use it and the generation of humour, is him. I think so.

        Without fuel HG does not cease to exist. He doesn’t spontaneously combust and disappear in a poof of red smoke. What ceases to exist is the construct. If he stopped fuel seeking tomorrow he would still be successful. He’s clearly very bright. Bright people tend to do well. He would lose the hangers on. He would lose the fake brigade. He would likely keep a smaller number of more genuine people. These people providing the support and human contact he needs. ( within the majority perspective). The truth is as we know, he wouldn’t himself cease to exist. He would however have to face a number of demons and in this sense, I can’t pretend to know how deep that would go or the effect it would have. The reality is, he sees no need to change. That’s his choice and like all personal choices his alone to make. I can see why he would elect not to ‘change’.

        I haven’t seen the conversation about not liking fish ha ha. It does sound strange. My take on it would be the following. The IPPS loves fish, eats her own body weight in it. She is in the seduction phase. HG therefore claims he likes fish. His narcissism convinces him also that actually he quite likes fish. Then the IPPS enters devaluation. There is no need for HG to claim he likes fish. His narcissism supports this and says ‘Good, you never liked fish anyway.’ So HG stops eating fish. Does he actually like fish? Well, if it tastes good to him then yes. He has taste buds so he knows if he likes it or not. Depending on what needs to be portrayed though he’ll say he loves it or he hates it. Anything that involves use of the five senses I think he will have the ability to express preference. If he can experience it, then I think he knows what his preference is. His personal preference though is overruled by the Prime Aims. It is always secondary.

        I don’t have it within me to believe that there is no real HG. Not when he is as self aware as he is. I believe he was perfectly capable of answering Dr E’s question ‘Who are you?’ He just didn’t want to. Again he chooses the construct over the real answer. That doesn’t mean though that he does not know the real answer. It just means he isn’t prepared to tell. I could be miles off the mark. As I said I have no training or real knowledge as to narcissism other than what I have read here together with inference.

        HG is a very rare individual I think. There will be choices as he moves through the sessions with the good doctors. Choices that may yield additional benefits. A little bit like us with the addiction.

        “ You belong to the empathic group, which means you have the addiction. You will always have this addiction to narcissists. It can’t be cured, but it can be managed.” Interesting times ahead.

        I feel a bit guilty talking about you as if you aren’t in the room HG. Just expressing my thoughts as to where I’m up to here.

        1. blackcoffee30 says:

          1. I get obsessed with interests and hobbies, then cast them aside once I’ve become bored. In this way I am like a narcissist. Haha. I ordered medical texts and spoke about it with a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and two LCSWs.

          2. Likes and dislikes are not “genuine” because they are part of the Construct.

          3. There is no spontaneous combustion lol, but the Construct will cease to exist. That cannot happen for the reasons HG has explained. Narcissists cannot change, but if they could, they would not. Barring head injury, I cannot change. If I could, I would not. I love being an empath.

          4. The fish question was during a private consultation, which I highly recommend for anyone. Yes, he can change his distaste for fish, but that’s not the point. The point is that even if it is just the fact that his brain is registering his taste buds, that is part of the HG Construct not the Creature.

          5. HG is an exception to many general rules. That said, he has a Creature and a Construct, which he’s much discussed. It is what it is.

          6. I have many addictions. Some are under control, others are a work in progress. My ET wins a lot of the time, and unfortunately (?) I have fairly high narcissistic traits. I do know HG wants us to learn and benefit from his knowledge, so here we are.

          One final point, I’m so grateful I found this site and the people who have helped me along the way.

          1. truthseeker6157 says:

            Agree BC30,

            Definitely an exception!

            The whole construct idea is confusing me. That said, it might actually be a moot point.

            I think we all have a construct to an extent. Work me is different to family me for example. Certain traits are emphasised in one situation over another. If equal amounts of time were spent in both arenas, which one is me? I too amend behaviours in accordance with the situation I am in. I’m not playing a role in either. Just different traits are highlighted. I think lots of people operate a construct and often more than one. Lots of people don’t do it to the extent that narcissists do. If HG has nothing left of himself other than the construct and the Creature, does this actually matter? If he is content with the construct then it’s no surprise he sees no reason to change. Perhaps the construct can mould and change in a similar way to how our own views and desires change with age, children or circumstances. I still think that with the level of awareness HG has there are changes he could make that might be to his benefit and also the benefit of his IPPS. Not the dismantling of the construct necessarily just nudging the boundaries of his perspective perhaps.

            For example, stale fuel. There are ways round that I think. Some couples never live together. They keep their own places and are a couple in all aspects. They just stay over at weekends. Maybe one night in the week. That would help to prevent fuel turning stale. Fuel turns stale I think due to complacency. Things become habitual, life takes over. The mundane gets ruled out if you only see each other at weekends, go away on holidays, spend special occasions together etc. HG has an established fuel network, he doesn’t need an IPPS with him all the time.

            To your point about your narcissistic traits. I don’t think having narcissistic traits is a bad thing. Before I did the EDC I was a bit concerned I would come out as a narcissist, and I do actually have all the narcissistic traits. Honestly, I think they are there for a reason, we would have less drive and less fight without them. I think we all need some. Like most things, in moderation it’s fine, extremes, less fine.

            As for addictions, our addiction to narcissists follows a similar pattern to others I think. Give something up, you crave it. The more you think about it the more you crave. Over time if you stay away from it, the craving subsides. Understanding your addiction, where it comes from and how best to manage it, destroys the illusion of it having power over you and increases your chances of success.

            Are you still awake ? Ha ha

          2. truthseeker6157 says:

            BC30 that’s amazing!

            Well done with your 8 years! That’s a massive battle and a huge achievement!

            I’m an ex smoker. It doesn’t bother me if people smoke. If I had one, I’d be sick, but I’m dumb enough to have two.

            I don’t crave, I don’t think about it. It’s been a long time now since I quit but still, Addiction is addiction.

            I wasn’t being flippant with the moot point comment by the way, just thinking out loud.

  5. truthseeker6157 says:

    Thanks Lickemtomorrow.

    I read / listened to ‘The Three Interactions with The Narcissist.’ ‘The Narcissist’s Three Assertions of Control’ and ‘Ten Ways You Threaten the Narcissist’s Control’ today. I’ve definitely been wrong about my thoughts on wounding. Some of the time I’ve been giving Challenge Fuel. In fact, I’d say I challenged quite a lot ! No wonder I was always getting corrective silent treatments! Similarly though he should have stopped trying to re write history so much with me then ha ha.

    I don’t see any other real clangers yet but I’ve no doubt made plenty.

    I started to wonder today what success looks like as far as this goes. As in, does success mean that you elect to hate all narcissists? Does success mean that you hate your own narcissist? Does it mean you are narc proof? Does success mean you have to view narcissists as bad and you as good? Or, does success mean you simply stay no contact and don’t ever speak to your narcissist again? I’m not entirely sure how I’ll know that I’ve got to where I’m going to here. Unless all of a sudden none of it matters to me any more.

    Fundamentally I think many of my views will remain unchanged. I don’t see people as inherently good or bad. I really can’t think of a single person I hate. I know I’m not all ‘good’. I don’t think any amount of articles no matter how shocking will cause me to hate all narcissists. I can’t do that because I don’t know how it feels to be them. I can relate to the fact that their perspective is different to mine and really, in their minds they are just doing what needs to be done to fill the void and cage the creature. Don’t know. I’m not sure what success looks like.

    Im enjoying the learning part. I haven’t been here that long so still have lots to understand yet. I was just thinking about it really, that’s all.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Jolly good. It is all about the learning, TS6157.

      1. truthseeker6157 says:

        It really is HG. It’s very possible you know that by the time I’ve been here longer, read all your material, I might just be stronger than I was to start with, (pre narc). Imagine that ! Win win.
        You would have to win a bit more though (obviously).

        Narc Tales was brilliant by the way. I loved it and I’m not even a third of the way through.
        I used to be scared of ghosts as a kid. My dad bought me an audio book, Peter Pan read by Wendy Craig. I listened to it almost every night as I went to sleep. It worked. As an adult I have never listened to audio books before Narc Tales last night. Same effect, it was really nice actually. I’ll put in an early request for more please. It’s an indulgence in terms of material, but a very enjoyable one.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I’m pleased you enjoyed it. There will be more. There’s plenty more audio material in TKV

          1. truthseeker6157 says:

            Yes, I’m amassing quite the collection ha ha. I’m just taking another quick look at TKV now.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Hg approves

        2. blackcoffee30 says:

          TS — Absolutely! We become stronger than we were pre-narc. There’s no doubt in my mind. Not only has HG opened my eyes to Ns, I have a different view of myself and more highly value myself.

          1. truthseeker6157 says:


            Now that I’m feeling clearer in myself, I can see all the advantages. I too have learned a lot about myself and continue to do so. I have found a group of people, all empaths, in one room, who are utterly supportive of each other. Without getting too sentimental over it, that’s a really beautiful thing to be a part of!

            Narcissism is a complicated but truly fascinating subject in itself. I would be interested in it even if I hadn’t been involved with a narcissist.
            I do think the subject has a broader reach than just our own personal recovery. I think more people need to be aware of it. I aim to communicate that and do communicate that where I see the opportunity.

            The number of newcomers arriving seeking help here are also a responsibility. I can’t simply take, feel better and not pay back into the system of people that have supported me when I was at my most vulnerable. I look forward to understanding enough so that I can confidently offer the correct support to newcomers. This site will continue to grow. It can’t be managed by just one man as it grows. Not if that man is to have his own life. It will take a group to contribute in support. I’m happy to pay back with my time. I just need the knowledge.

            So yes, I agree, I think we will be stronger for being here. Everything happens for a reason. ( ha ha. What? It does!)

          2. blackcoffee30 says:

            Well, “It can be no other way.” so we might as well pay it forward. 🥰

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Great outlook and intention to give back. This is the empathic way – sharing our power to effect a better outcome for many

          4. Duchessbea says:

            I completely agree. The only good thing about having a narcissist come into your life is the awakening you get. After Narc, you become a stronger, more resilient and better person than you were before and you have to keep working on yourself everyday to be the best person you can be and live your best life. That’s the only thing I am thankful to my Narc for, well that and one or two other things.

          5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest blackcoffee30,
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          6. truthseeker6157 says:


            Thank you for your comment. It’s great when you start to feel better isn’t it? I’ve gone 8 months before now during a disengagement and felt deathly sad every day. I wouldn’t have thought it possible to feel so much better in such a comparatively short period of time.
            It is entirely different this time. The same players on the board with just one extra key piece. ‘The Ultra’. I feel useful again, like there is room for other things and other people. I just want everyone to start feeling better too.

    2. lickemtomorrow says:

      Hi TS, sound like you and I have plenty in common when it comes to our narcissists!

      It may be a case of you’ll know when you get to where you’re going when you actually get there … at least I hope so.

      Maybe success looks different for each of us as well. I know I’ve hated my narc, my narc parent, felt compassion and sorrow for the narcissist’s predicament, sensed my narc’s shame and regaled him with my own brand of ‘fury’, though I know it is nowhere near the same. It’s such a mixed bag of emotions and perceptions which can be hard to pin down. I think I can be more objective now after gaining more insight here, but still swing wildly at times between despising my narc and then longing for him again. He left a big empty space that I’m not inclined to fill right now, but what I am trying to do is fill it with insight, add to my understanding and ultimately let go of the notion I had of him as being anything other than an illusion.

      That last part really hurts. I feel so thoroughly duped, which is where the anger really comes from. That sadness comes from knowing it wasn’t real, it was all a charade. I feel sorry for us both on that account.

      The gladness will come when (I hope) when the energy of those emotions are spent and I am looking at a future that has nothing to do with him, is not affected by him and involves a more realistic view of relationship. That includes not getting seduced in the first place and being aware of all the red flags that indicate I am falling into old patterns that are well worn paths as part of my narcissistic heritage.

      I’m glad you shared your thoughts and it benefits everyone when we do that. It can be hard to put into words sometimes, and some things we haven’t even thought of until someone else puts it into words for us. You’ve got me thinking again today, too, and I appreciate that <3

      1. truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey Lickemtomorrow

        Thank you, same here with your comment. Success will look different for us all because our experiences are different. You’re right, I’ll likely know where I’m going upon arrival !

        The feeling of the relationship being an illusion is the hardest part to deal with. I agree. I kind of rationalise it now within a more ‘ normal’ context. You were invested and had your hopes for the relationship. He was invested and had his needs for the relationship. Your hopes were love, understanding, partnership ( in essence) his needs were fuel and the achievement of the Prime Aims. Neither of you could make the relationship work long term as your hopes and needs were different. That’s it. Relationships fail every day because people can’t align their needs or hopes for the future. These relationships end. Our relationships with the narcissists ended. The end result is the same. Something ends, you move on, and you don’t look back.

        He said, she said, he did, she did, in the end it’s all irrelevant, it’s over.

        This is pretty much the conclusion I have drawn for me. It might help you, it might not, I hope it does x

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Well, there’s the ET taken right out of it replaced with purely logical thinking 🙂

          I ‘aim’ to get there one day! It seems straightforward when you put it like that.

          And it is.

          That he didn’t know what he was and was purely acting from instinct is another way to put the genie back in the bottle.

          Either way it doesn’t cause me to feel sorry for him which is part of where my emotional thinking can get me – like I said being sad or angry.

          Detach, detach, detach.

          Just like they orchestrated us to attach, attach, attach.

          Logic will definitely help us to detach.

          So, good to get a focus on that again.

          Thanks, TS 🙂

          1. truthseeker6157 says:

            I think you are exactly right given he was Mid Range. He wasn’t planning. Not plotting and scheming. He was instinctively reacting to inadvertent challenge fuel or even wounding on occasion. He was simply doing what was necessary to achieve the Prime Aims. The more we can understand their perspective, I think the better we feel. You did your very best. No need for guilt or blame. Just acceptance that two people with such differing objectives can’t work long term.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Just had another thought around attaching and detaching.

            Narcs want us to attach to our emotion (as well as them).

            We need to detach from our emotion (and from them)

            It’s the two sided coin of narcissists and empaths again.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You’re already attached to your emotions as they’re yours.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Let me make that ’emotional thinking’, HG. I think that’s where I went wrong.

    3. lickemtomorrow says:

      Oh, forgot to say, I’ve got “Ten Ways You Threaten the Narcissist’s Control” with HGs latest offer. The other two I have listened to previously and that was more valuable insight to add to all the rest. If you haven’t read “Fury” I’d recommend it as another way of understanding more. It was also very insightful in terms of what underlies the narcissist’s response to the world and obviously very closely related to wounding.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Thank you.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          No problem, HG.

          I do find reading your work will invariably raise my ET at times, so it’s a go slow on some of them.

          The other thing is there is so much to read! I’m in a candy store and can’t decide on the lollipop or the jelly beans or the licorice or the bubble gum … so much to choose from …

          Sometimes I let my mood decide. I know Narc Tales will be the pick me up when I need it 🙂

  6. jennymckinny says:

    Thank you for sharing; I wish I had this knowledge years ago.

  7. lickemtomorrow says:

    “It is something of a paradox that we have never cultivated certain emotions and/or we have been stripped of them in order to make us lean, effective and efficient, yet we also must receive those emotions from you in order to sustain us.”

    That is indeed a paradox.

    “I am the ultimate recycler.”

    And I will second that.

    Recycling our emotions for your own purposes – i.e. fuel.

  8. truthseeker6157 says:

    “I can appreciate the grandeur of centuries old architecture.”

    To an extent, I believe you can. You could describe it as “grand” or “imposing”. You recognise beauty. You could appreciate the lines, the symmetry or lack thereof. The form against the backdrop. You don’t fully appreciate it though because for me, it brings on a feeling of awe or wonderment, warmth or even insignificance. It feels almost like a mild draining. A mild hunger or thirst. It feels like in that moment, where I take in the buildings or I take in the beautiful view, in that moment, I leave something of myself within it. I am moved by what I see. For you, I think, it is more an academic exercise. You could name the style or genre better than me, but you wouldn’t take it in to yourself. So difficult to describe a sense of something to one who can’t sense in this way. I really wish you could. There is so much more to see and feel.

  9. Gina G says:

    When do narcissists feel shame? I thought that was a feeling that went into creating one but it didn’t continue. Feeing shame seems like accountability to me. Also, my ex has no sense of humor, seems to have difficulty “getting” humor especially if it’s subtle. Eventually, he thought any laughing in his presence from me was at him.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See “Your Fault”.

      1. Leigh says:

        I didn’t even know this book existed. I’m just about to finish Outnumbered and was trying to figure out which one i wanted to read next. Now I know!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          HG approves. If you want a list of all my books, email me.

          1. Leigh says:

            Email sent! I do appreciate organization and now I’ll be able to keep track of what I’ve read.Thank you!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            List sent to you.

          3. Leigh says:

            I got the list! Thank you! I’ve already went through and checked off the ones I’ve read. The first two on the list (Narcissist – Seduced & Narcissist – Ensnared) I hadn’t heard of either. I think after reading Your Fault, they will be next.

    2. jennymckinny says:

      💡 My ex always thought I was sarcastic and making fun of him. Irony completely escaped him. No real sense of humor at all. Although, he did think weird things were funny.

      1. Gina Gonzalez says:

        Same. It’s just another way of thinking everything is about them.

        1. jennymckinny says:

          Everything. I often compared him to an overgrown toddler….

          1. lickemtomorrow says:


      2. Witch says:

        My narc ex used to be so sensitive about anyone making fun of him. He would have tantrums talking about how I don’t respect him.
        If you can’t take the piss out of each other in a relationship then I fail to see the point of being in one

        1. jennymckinny says:

          Exactly. My sons and I couldn’t even give it each other a hard time because he couldn’t keep up with the banter.

        2. alexissmith2016 says:

          Some narcs really don’t have much of a sense of humour at all. I remember this one particular female N, probably a middle lesser. I was joking about silly things my hubby has said to me, they were so outlandish but hilarious that he couldn’t possibly mean them (I think ahaha) no he definitely didn’t. Anywya I was making a joke about it and she gave her bf the eye like my husband must have really meant the things he was saying. Oh god it cracked me up.

  10. blackcoffee30 says:

    Since emotions are bodily sensations, which differ from person to person and emotion to emotion I wonder, is it the same for fuel power?

    What are the “outrageous injustices”? (I mean, other than idiots who drive slowly in the fast lane.)

    “We are reliant on you emotions to exist.” I am still trying to process this and comprehend it.

    1. truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey BC30

      Do you mean if two narcissists we’re watching a football match where their team wins, would they both feel the same amount of power in the same way due to the same event?

      I think outrageous injustices can encompass many things from the heartbreaking through to the seemingly ridiculous. ( from our perspective). An outrageous injustice could be being passed over for a promotion in work. The narcissist can’t accept that the successful candidate might have been better suited to the role, more experienced, or fit the team better. He believes he is superior in all things. So instead he adopts the position that the world is against him, the process was unfair, the management are idiots, and his own failure to secure the promotion is essentially down to any other factor other than himself and his own performance. An outrageous injustice. Similarly as you said, it could even be being cut up on the motorway or beaten at the lights.
      To have to win at everything, in every aspect of your life and in every interaction in order to preserve a sense of self Is mind blowing when you think about even an average day and the interactions within it. There were outrageous injustices committed against the narcissist to begin with. Or they would not have become narcissists. Predisposition plus lack of controlled environment. These aren’t the outrageous injustices they see on a daily basis though. I don’t think those are referenced every day by a narcissist. I imagine in most cases those are buried pretty deep.

      Being reliant on our emotions to exist. I can understand the need for the positive emotions from our side. The love, adoration, admiration.These were all sadly lacking for the narcissist during their formative years. I feel that the need for the negative emotions is almost a contradiction. Given the way narcissists were treated as kids you would expect the last thing they would want is to be yelled at for example. I can see that a switch in fuel from positive to negative would yield a different intensity. Negative emotions such as fear or rage, carry a more obvious intensity than demonstrating happiness for example. To say that because of our empathic nature that unlocking negative fuel is more difficult therefore achieving that demonstrates the power of the narcissist, is very dark. I prefer not to dwell on that too much, but can see how that is in fact the truth of it. I still would have thought that reducing another to a similar state as the narcissist was himself as a child would trigger negative memories though. Or, maybe it’s a reminder of how they did an excellent job of ensuring they will never be put in that position again. Without empathy or compassion, they might not even relate to the idea that the pain they inflict is the same pain that was inflicted on them.

      That’s my less than concise take on it. Sorry it’s a bit woolly round the edges!

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        I think it’s an excellent summary, TS. Thanks for sharing your thoughts around that and I don’t think they’re woolly at all <3

      2. blackcoffee30 says:

        TS, Please bear with me. I may be doing a poor job explaining my thoughts, and it’s long, but here goes…

        1. No. Every individual feels emotions differently. What I meant was more so whether “fuel” always feels the same or if it manifests as different physical sensations.

        For example, I get butterflies in my stomach in happy anticipation. My heart beats faster when I think I might get caught doing something I’m not supposed to be doing. I feel a lump in my throat when I want to cry, but with a headache when they are sad tears and with uncontrollable smiling when they are happy tears. Does fuel feel the same regardless of the trigger?

        2. I was being flippant. Everyone is an idiot according to them. Cue *eye roll* I just agreed with them. How could I have proven them wrong? I couldn’t. It’s subjective, so I let it go. I do agree with your assessment, makes sense to me.

        3. There is no agent. There is no individual. There is no solidified core. There is nothing, but an empty wasteland swirling with stolen shards of people’s emotions, triumphs, and experiences—the “false self.” When I asked HG whether #2’s hatred of fish was something that was really “him” HG said, “No, that is also part of the false self.”

        From what I understand, a baby cannot abhor the parent/caregiver, upon whom they are ENTIRELY dependent, being lacking or “bad”, so the baby determines that s/he must be what is bad/shameful/wrong. When the baby internalizes this, if the baby cannot get back to its “good” and overcome the disconnect, the baby loses the ability to connect. The loss of connection (object permanence and object constancy) and empathy has begun. The baby begins to build a “false self” to interact with the world and protect the bad/shameful/wrong “true self.”

        What I can’t get comprehend is how there is absolutely no functional true self. The narcissists that I knew as #1 and #2 do not exist. This is what allows them to hate something then turn around and fall in love with the same thing a moment later and without irony. For example, #2 hated France/French people for years, but when moving on to the next appliance he was googly-eyed in love with Paris and wanted to go to France post haste! He needs others’ emotions to exist. So, if a new appliance needs him to love France, so be it. He suddenly loves France without even thinking about it consciously, and he denied his prior hatred when I brought it up. Nothing is static. Whereas, I, “BC30” exist simply because I am me.

        I don’t need anyone to exist. Yes, I need human connection, but not so that I can exist and be me. I love olives, I am selfish, Diet Coke is my jam, Beetlejuice is a funny movie, I hate cold weather, I’m thoughtful and compassionate, cats > dogs, and summer rainstorms are the best place to have sex. Those things will never change. BC30 exists without the need of others’ emotions.

        So, if the narcissist is an ever-changing amalgamation arising from others’ emotions that doesn’t exist on its own, “who” is steering the ship?

        “I seize your emotion… to allow my existence to continue.” —WTAF?

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Another great assessment of what is happening with the empath as an individual and the narcissist as one who has no individuality to cling on to except that of others. This was actually quite moving. Especially your explanation around the baby losing the ability to connect. It’s also quite heartbreaking. Really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experiences, BC.

      3. alexissmith2016 says:

        Yer I normally have races with people and they don’t even know I’m racing them, like in a shopping queue or something, that way if I’m losing I can always chose to race someone else. I come out on top every time. Funny that ahahah

        1. truthseeker6157 says:

          Don’t care what care you drive mate, you aren’t beating me at the lights, or through the roundabout! Ha ha ha

          Not much luck in supermarkets. I get stuck behind the person with coupons, who only decides to look for them when it’s time to pay. Really?! No, really.

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahhaa TS is top trump!

            Hmmm we’ll compete against someone else in a different queue and further back – you can still be a winner

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Or, let my daughter push the trolley! She’s brutal, takes no prisoners. No idea where she gets it from at all.

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