For the Sake of Argument
Would you like to know what is going through my mind when we argue? Thought you would.
I do enjoy an argument. I love to start a squabble, a contretemps and escalate it to a quarrel through to an altercation, a fight ! By now I am sure you have realised that the reason I do this is twofold. First, I am provoking an emotional reaction from you which gives me fuel. Secondly, it enables me to put you in your place and control you by being abusive towards you. I keep it within the realms of stinging and barbed verbal abuse but there are those of my brethren who do like to let their fists do the talking. That is not my style but we cannot shy away from the truth of what is being done in the name of “a discussion”.
I know from experience and also from reading numerous comments and observations that you regard arguing with me akin to banging your head against a brick wall. You cannot understand the stance we adopt in an argument. Surely we must recognise that what we are saying makes no sense? Do we not realise that our position lacks logic? I will endeavour to enlighten you. I recognise two types of argument. The first is created by me. The second is created by you. What they both have in common is you are at fault.
In the first type I generate an argument out of nothing. You find this disorienting and confusing. In fact,I will often do this after we have just done something delightful together (throwing you from a height is all the more delicious – see Get Ready To Drop). I will invent some offence (why did you just look at that man across from us, when you did not) or I will seize on something utterly trivial (thanks for taking that last drop (and it was a drop) of the sauvignon blanc). I will level the accusation at you. You will at first be stunned because everything was going swimmingly. You will then be perplexed as my accusation is either untrue or so minor to be negligible. Why is he getting so het up over nothing? Indignance will then rise inside you as your inner self questions whether you are just going to sit and take this unjust accusation. I am shouting at you now and you either run away or fight back. It might go something like this.
“Oh thanks for taking the last of the wine, I wanted that. I have hardly had any.”
“Sorry? There was only a drop left.”
“But you didn’t ask me if I wanted it did you?”
“I didn’t think to, there was just a dribble.”
“You didn’t think? That’s the trouble with you. You never think.”
“Oh come on, besides you’ve had plenty of wine anyway.”
“Are you saying I have a drink problem?”
“Woah, where did that come from?”
“You. You are always doing this. You do something selfish and then turn it into an attack about me. Just because you cannot stand for someone to point out when you have done something wrong.”
“Good God, what are you talking about?”
“That’s it, try to dismiss me when I am making a valid point.”
“I only poured a drop of wine into my glass. It is not big deal. Here, if it troubles you so much, have what is left in my glass.”
“No, it’s too late. The damage is done. You are trying to make light of when I am pointing something out to you.”
“This is ridiculous.”
“Oh I am ridiculous am I, well that’s rich coming from someone who drinks a bottle, at least one, a day.”
“Where do you get that from? No I don’t.”
“Yes you do. I am concerned about your drinking, have you ever considered getting some help?”
And on it goes.
When I start an argument like this I am not interested in proving what I am saying is correct. I am already right in my mind. You should note that ‘right’ and ‘correct’ are not necessarily the same thing. The whole purpose of this type of argument is for me to upset you and turn an otherwise pleasant experience into a horrible one. This is about exerting control so that you become wary about upsetting me. Next time you will always ensure you offer to pour me a glass of wine before tending to yourself for fear of causing an argument. Of course,, the next time I will be arguing about how you took the last profiterole instead even though I had eaten five more than you already.
The second type of argument is where you level a complaint or accusation at me. Invariably what you say is correct and you have valid grounds for raising it. You will also do so in a calm and level-headed fashion because that is your style. When you do this I do not hear what you are actually saying to me. The validity of your argument is meaningless to me. The piece of paper that documents your point may as well be written in Sanskrit for all the notice I will take of it. All I hear is you criticising me and I hate that. I absolutely hate it.
How dare someone like you, who is inferior to someone like me, have the audacity to suggest I have done something wrong. I do not hear your words, I do not see the video recording you are playing back, all I hear is an unjust and scathing attack on me. Your words are drowned out by the raging fire that surges through me. The noise of the flames renders me deaf to your cool logic. I will deflect, deny and launch my own attacks (usually predicated on inventions) in order to beat you back. I am not interested in the correctness of what is being argued about.
I am only interested in stopping the burning sensation I feel from your criticism and to do that I have to extinguish you. This is when I lose control and lash out. I will hurl savage insults at you and I will smash items of property (in my mind I am smashing you, just another object in front of me when I do this) and some of my kind will engage in physical violence. You will try to make me see that I am wrong (any healthy person would do this) and you are utterly flabbergasted as to why I cannot see what you are saying to me. Now you know. I cannot see because of the fiery rage that has erupted.
How do you deal with me in these two types of argument? Well, I am saving that information for another time. In the meanwhile, see if you can piece together that ornament I have just hurled against the wall.
38 thoughts on “For the Sake of Argument”
Narc frustration of the day which had to be vented – buzzword, “Does that make sense?” Smile sweetly but inside thinking fuck off you patronising fuckwit!
Wow, I have a friend who says that constantly!! Drives me nuts! I have told her how it makes me feel and her reply was that she just wasn’t sure if she’d explained it well enough but it sure never felt like that when she said it! I don’t see her often anymore. At all. So condescending.
I say, Does that make sense? I say it to really ask if I’m making sense or am I wording it wrong, or am I seeing it wrong, or just totally confused. The one thing I don’t like to do , during a conversation, is say something that is misunderstood or worded incorrectly
Either way, the listener gets the wrong understanding or gets the wrong point I’m trying to make to him or her.
Hi Rebecca, yes, I believe that my friend seriously doesn’t get how it can sound and is really concerned that she’s not making sense. I only wish that, especially since we’ve talked about it, she could say it with the emphasis on her possibility not explaining it well instead of me not understanding it well. Like, “Am I explaining it clearly?” Or something to that effect. I do have pride as one of my two highest traits and I believe that possibly if I didn’t her comment would sound different to me. And of course there’s tons involved and body language etc.
But I appreciate Alexissmith’s comment, I am not the only one who hears it as I do.
Hey Rebecca, I asked my daughter if it bugs her when people say that and she couldn’t figure out why it would bother anyone. I think for me it’s a pride thing, I take it like the speaker things I’m not smart enough to understand. Anyway, wanted to let you know it’s probably not a big deal. Today my other daughter told me she thinks I’m a “highly sensitive person”, I was like “Yeah, an empath.”. She said “No, i don’t think so” … But I think that’s what that is, different words for the same thing. Maybe that’s why it bugs me. 😂
I’ve been told I’m a highly sensitive person too and I understand what you mean, when you say, you take things the wrong way sometimes. I do it too. I get my feelings hurt, when the other person doesn’t even mean it like that. What I do now is, when I get my feelings hurt, I ask the person, did you mean it this way? And usually the answer is no and then they go into explaining what they meant. Like you, I have a Pride trait, compared to my other narcissistic traits, which are moderate all 10 of them….I understand where you’re coming from.
I’m glad I got the empath detector done because it was a relief to see all 10 empathic traits being very high. I still would like to do a brain scan to see what it says, just being curious about it. I heard it can show PTSD or CPTSD. I’d be interested in seeing what it shows.
I’m aware of my sensitivity and just do what I do and ask the person, so it might make you feel better finding out you misunderstood them. I have a best friend , who can be a bit harsh with what she says to people, sometimes her bluntness makes me laugh and sometimes she hurts my feelings, either way I ask her to be less harsh with her wording at times. I’ve known her for 20 years and she’s a great friend and she’s damn funny at times and I love her very much, she’s like a sister to me, one I enjoy being around.
Hi Rebecca, I will reply to both your comments in those one. I did ask her why she says it. This was years before coming to narcasite even, I did go to the evidence. Her reply was only half true, in my opinion, because she refused to see how it sounded to me and try to either not say it or say it in a way in which she owned it if she in fact said it for her own clarity of how she was presenting something, like she claimed.
I have come to believe that there are times when I am overly sensitive and there are other times when people are rude. The first step I take is a self check, am I being overly sensitive here? I will sometimes run it by someone to get a different perspective. If I determine it’s me, my problem, I let it go. If I have a question and the relationship matters enough to me, I check with the person. Most relationships don’t matter that much to me, to go through the headache of checking it out.
I would not keep a tight friendship with a person that sounds like
Oops, I bumped send, sorry Rebecca!
I was saying I would not keep a tight friendship with a person that sounds like your friend, I don’t need the irritation of that. My right friends are people who don’t do that sort of thing. I have one friend who is now divorced from the narc. The friendship status is up in the air. I have confronted a number of issues over a couple of years but, it’s not worth to continue it is she can’t figure it out. But that’s just me. I’m glad you love your friend.
AV, sensitivity and self-sensitivity are two different things.
Narcissists also have the latter.
Your daughter was right 🙂
PS I also feel offended, usually my answer is childish: “You yourself are pointless!” 🙂
Thanks Joa. And I really like your answer!
Excuse a non-native speaker and interrupter, but to me the ending
‘does that make sense?’
simply sounds like ‘does that sound like a good idea?’
So it doesn’t make me upset per se. It could even be a worried empath desperate to be understood by the other person.
Looking for validation in every sentence, like
‘I’ m painting my garage purple, does that sound wise to you?’
Though I realize any of these repetitive idiom people could be narcs. If one wants to annoy and get quick fuel, being repetitive is a way.
Another Cat says “‘I’ m painting my garage purple, does that sound wise to you?’, Asp Emp says “yes, that’s a great idea” 🙂
Hi AC, for me it was the comment with the arrogance of the person and the frequency that it was said that was irritating, like a constant reminder that she thought I was dumb. I mean people say it here and there possibly, no problem but this was not that. If she is an empath, she is a very arrogant one.
I must add, that my childish answer: “You yourself are pointless” is given, when someone dares to accuse me of a meaningless statement (Ignoramus! ha ha ha).
Interrogative form at the end of the sentence: “Does it make sense?” indicates, that someone is unsure of his own statement or is not sure whether it has reached the addressee. It does not annoy me, but rather arouses a protective instinct. I confirm or ask for an ambiguous detail to be clarified.
AV, Rebecca, what an interesting conversation. I understand both of you very well.
AV – I’ve also learned to let go in this regard. Once upon a time my imagination told me too much. Now it just doesn’t matter anymore, what someone thinks about me. I know myself inside out, so I know when I deserve actual criticism or reprimand. I always listen, but much more often, than I used to, I reject.
Rebecca – I love rough people like your friend! These are all my best friends 🙂
I will say more – the nicer, more obedient, overly conciliatory someone is, the further I stay away from him. Boredom and vigilance.
And I really like these small splinters, nedles, spikes and burrs 🙂
PS Today I laughed with my next, involuntary, childish response (You – no, it’s you). My best friend decided to tease me (after a sharp, cold period, we’re going back into gold), he came from behind, suddenly, he leaned over me and inhaled the scent of my hair, saying in front of everyone present: “I knew, it was you smell llike some male scent.” (Not true!). I jumped like a spring, because I didn’t hear him come in (he creeps up or goes in with a bang) and I don’t like that unexpected closeness, so I growled: “You smell like a guy yourself!” He: “It’s obvious.” Ha ha ha, my stomach ached from laughter 🙂
Rebecca, I understand some people May day this evening conveying something complex which is totally understandable. But when they say it at the end of every sentence and something that would make sense to a two year old without clarification that’s when it becomes narcy. “I think you’re lovely – does that make sense”, “I’m going to have beans on toast for tea – does that make sense?” Fuck off!
Sorry, seriously hoping that you only say it when necessary Rebecca because from your posts you definitely appear to be an E.
Should read, “May do this”. Not “May Day this evening”, now even my autocorrect is drunk
I say, does that make sense, when I’m worried I’m not making sense, or that it might be all jumbled because I’m emotional at the time I’m saying it or writing it. Sometimes I say it when I’m asking if I’m understanding something correctly. For example, You’re saying hands is the measurement used for a horse, does that make sense? Yes, hands us a measurement used for a horse. The horse is 16 hands tall. Maybe that’s not the best example because hands can be confusing because some people might not know that hands is a measurement for a horse. Anyway, I don’t say it to be rude. It’s just my worry I’m being misunderstood.
I had the empath detector done and I came back Standard Empath triple hybrid of strong Geyser, strong Savior, Strong Carrier and with elements of Contagion and Codependent. Woof, I’m a mutt. 😆
I agree AV it’s so condescending. But I just sit there feeling all more superior inside thinking to myself, you think you’re better than me and that you know far more, but the reality is I’ve been educated by HG thank you very much and I don’t even feel the need to wipe that smug little grin off off of your mid-range twatty little face because you’re pathetic and empty inside and don’t even deserve any further consideration.
Haha, thanks Alexissmith, i didn’t even know about narcissism and I was thinking that with the one I knew! And the arrogance was standout even then, UMR makes complete sense.
I think your word drunkenness has affected my typing now. 😆 I was trying to give an example, on previous comment and screwed up the comment. 😆
Haha yes, Alexis!!! I didn’t know this was a common phrase! UMRN: “let’s meet near the bridge, does it make sense?” Excuse me? Are you lecturing me on quantum field theory, perhaps? Do you mean the only ONE bridge in the park? So alone in its singularity as a bridge in the park that you even used the definite article for the same reason:THE bridge? I am asking because you could always be referring to a possibly 5th dimensional bridge in a secret portal of your delirious fucking narc mind, least I get lost. Grrrr.
Ah god SP! You crack me up! Does that make sense?
“Let’s meet near the bridge, does that make sense?”. Well it did until you completed the sentence you idiot!
And you’re spot on too re it being an UMRN comment.
Are they hideous or what? What arrogant, callous assholes.
Hahaha, SP, I have wondered so many times if my friend that says it to me is a narc! And about these exact types of questions when she and I are talking! Your comment is hilarious and shockingly descriptive of my experience also!
I must say that N2 said something of that effect (¿Entiendes?). It was contagious so I started to say it too! Like when a word get a lot of popularity and is used extensively – because you hear it often it’s soon in your mouth..
I might still ask occasionally but only if I feel that I may have given a bad explanation. Not habitually!
I didn’t even think of it as denigrating although I realise now it was meant to make me feel stupid. It didn’t work because I didn’t grasp it.
He changed and started with “I’m just gonna give you an advice” / “I advice you to..” that pissed me off 😤!
With regard to your friend you wrote that she left the narc. Recently or quite long time ago?
Hi Alexis, I think it depends on whose saying it. If a narc saying it, I would consider it condescending and done to assert control. But if an empath says it, its probably because of the cognitive dissonance and mind fuckery they’ve dealt with in their life. Sometimes when I’m talking to a narc and they look at you with that 404 stare, I have to ask, “Am I making sense?” Its almost auto pilot now too because I have to make sure I choose my words carefully in order to convey the message I want. I’ve often walked away saying, “I guess I’m not explaining myself correctly.” I just wanted to give you an alternative view. I would agree though, when uttered by a narc, its done to be condescending.
If this is a duplicate, I apologize. Its definitely user error, lol!
Alexis, I would agree when a narc says this, its condescending and done to assert control. Its different when an empath says it. I’ve often experienced the 404 stare and have said, “Am I not making sense?” With all the mind fuckery and cognitive dissonance I’ve often wondered if I’m making sense. I often walk away thinking, “I must not be explaining myself correctly.”
I just wanted to offer another view.
Sometimes I get my inside voice and my outside voice confused.
LMAO TS! Me too!
My brother was really talented at driving me crazy. Typical sibling bickering, he’d poke at me until I snapped and to his delight I’d come at him like a rabid dog. He lived to poke, tickle, trip, slap.argue..whatever means necessary to get a reaction out of me. He would argue over nothing, just get on my nerves,just for fun. Older siblings are a pain in the ass at times. Oh, and he would do pranks on me and I’d get him back, but his favorite thing to do is take something from me and he’d argue with me about getting it back…drove me crazy. He would just laugh and laugh, as I got madder and madder…eventually, I just got him back in the funniest of ways. Peanut butter in his shoes, cutting all the toes out of his socks, spraying him with the garden hose and he’d get me back…we’d go back and forth…it was fun as we got older. He’d cheat at card games, I’d catch him and he would pretend to be innocent and we’d both laugh because we knew he cheated. Instead of crying about his tricks on me, I just learned to get him back and I still do that with people who torment, tease, trick etc…I just get them back.
I’m curious, is your brother a narcissist?
I have an issue with practical jokes. I sometimes don’t think they are funny. They can be used to humiliate. That was my experience growing up. I’m not judging your interactions with your brother. It seems you both enjoyed it.
I honestly don’t know the answer. I’ve talked to HG about his behaviors before and thought about putting him through the narc detector, but he’s passed away, so I question whether doing that is necessary when so many people need the narc detector results on live people they’re currently dealing with and whether that would waste HG’S time analyzing my brother. I guess that would be for HG to decide? The practical joke thing, I agree with you at times, sometimes it got on my nerves, sometimes I would laugh with him. Our relationship was a complicated one. I loved him, but there were times he hurt me deeply. The times HG and I would talk about him and I would share some of his antics and behaviors with HG, HG did agree with my thoughts of my brother being a narcissist, but I haven’t put him through the narc detector as of yet. And no worries about asking about my brother, I don’t mind your question about him because I noticed the same.
My times that I enjoyed his antics made me question myself at times of being a narcissist because I do have a wide range of humour, sometimes I think it can be twisted and a bit dark, but I came back empath, not narcissist.
Rebecca, I am so sorry to read about your loss. I would suggest it is up to you regarding the NDC on your brother. It is good to read that you have talked about him with HG 🙂
Thanks Asp Emp. He passed away on 02/14/2013, but wasn’t found until the 17, so it was put on his death certificate that he died on the 17th of February 2013. He was found dead and the police thought he had been murdered, so they took him, did an autopsy and an investigation. This took weeks and as you can imagine, I was upset, both devastated and furious thinking someone killed him. I was so furious about someone killing him, the thought of someone killing him, I just wanted to find them myself, hunt them down and rip into them. I was also heartbroken because I just lost my brother, my only sibling, the last of my immediate family….Weeks later, the autopsy results came back, Medical Examiner called me. I had questions of course, and she answered my questions. I asked for a copy of the autopsy, she mailed it to me. I just needed it, don’t know why, I just needed it. An investigator called me and told me he wasn’t murdered that the investigation is solved and closed. He said, I could have the funeral home pick him up, they were releasing him to me through the funeral home. It was pretty surreal and I felt in a dream I wanted to wake up from, I couldn’t completely grasp he was gone. He had his third heart attack and it was a massive one, killed him in seconds the M.E. said. He was 42 and had a heart defect he wasn’t aware of and it took me down for a while, depression and dark thoughts, all I could do is go to work on autopilot and half function out of work. I didn’t talk about it, couldn’t talk about it and I just remember feeling numb at work and devastated at home. I’m sorry Asp Emp, didn’t mean to go so deep into it. He was my brother, he might have been a narcissist, but I still loved him regardless of things he did and said, I still loved him, and still do.
HG, I know you’re reading this and I wanted to tell you during our consultation, but I was afraid I’d cry and you wouldn’t be able to understand what I was saying through all the crying. I wanted to say, and this is regarding the Knowing HG series, I understand your fury more than you know. Now you know why…..helping is important to me.
Well, he does sound like a narcissist and even without the NDC, HG seemed to agree.
I understand that you still loved him though. I definitely understand that. I don’t think you would be wasting HG’s time if you really wanted to know, but he is deceased so maybe it no longer matters.
All the practical joking made me think he was one. I don’t think empaths connect in that way. Possibly you went along with it because it was the way he interacted with you, and you wanted a connection with him. Or something similar to that. In the same way that empaths begin to copy narcissistic behavior.
Anyway, I’m sorry he hurt you deeply. Hopefully you can move on from it and remember only the good times.
I agree with you, that he was probably a narcissist, but I still want to ask HG about doing a Narc detector on him or not. Yes, I love him still. The practical jokes was something he would do, I went along with it because it was part of what we did together, I guess, yes, how we related together. He was older and I looked up to him. He was a teacher for me too. He taught me how to get out a window without waking anyone in the house. He did things like throw stink bombs in mailboxes, set fire to the woods, those things I wasn’t part of. I only did the unharmful things with him. Like we would bring up the word, moist, at the dinner table. Mother hated that word, so we would get her back for her abuse of us, by talking about Duncan Hines Moist cake mix. Some of it was funny, like I said before, I have a wide range of humour, some of it I learned from him, so maybe I was relating to him that way, or maybe adopting some of his behaviors. We were kids when we did this together, later on, the pain he caused me, complicated our relationship after that, but I didn’t stop loving him, some people don’t understand that. I do remember the good times and don’t focus on the bad times.