Understanding the relevant school and cadre of empath that you belong to is an integral part of arming yourself so that you effect a GOSO Campaign (Get Out, Stay Out) with the maximum effectiveness.
Recognising where you belong with regard to one of the four schools of empath and then the relevant cadre not only aids you in learning more about yourself and how your school and cadre attracts particular narcissists, it will weaponise you in your quest to GOSO and also assist you in evading narcissists in the future.
This consultation is conducted through the provision of a protocol which is straightforward and provides confidentiality between the parties. A questionnaire is provided which elicits a broad range of information about you and your behaviours to enable me to then analyse your responses and provide you with an accurate and easy to understand response through an audio sound file.
Ensuring you know what you are means you will avoid the mistakes that occur with self-analysis through lacking objectivity. It will ensure you do not embark on courses of action which are suited to different schools and it also enables you to plug the gaps in your own defences and achieve GOSO sooner and with less effort.
Click the link below to learn more about the process and what you will learn.
I have a couple of ways that I’m visualizing this, based on everything Mr. Tudor has said, and I don’t feel fully satisfied with either, yet.
Facts: Most empaths are hybrids, in terms of school and cadre. Some have a majority school. Some have a majority cadre. Some will have very strong/strong schools cadres, (schools or cadres higher than the others.) Most are hybrids with no clear majority.
If we think of ourselves as captains and pilots of our brain-ships…like spaceships…(in HG’s case, it’s more of a battle station, a “Death Star” if you will)…then there is a command center with a way to know what is happening outside. Then everyone has a console in front of them with different buttons. The console of the normal is arranged the same way; the console of the narcissist has numerous configurations based on their school and cadre; the empath has numerous configurations based on school and cadre. The percentage of school determines the size of that portion of the console, and the percentage of cadre determines the size of buttons. (If an empath has a majority cadre, they have a large central button with smaller buttons around it. With a majority school and majority cadre, one large central section and one large central button. Etc.)
Let’s assume that we’re looking at the console majority Standard with a strong codependent element for school and a three way split of cadres between savior, carrier, and geyser, the Millennium Empath. Their console is unevenly divided, three quarters is standard and one quarter is codependent, and there are three buttons roughly the same size on each. Every decision the empath makes as they pilot that ship throughout their day will be governed by their emotional empathy (except when the empathy becomes eroded). With each danger encountered, then they must take action by pressing a button. They will likely choose a button from the standard portion of the console; that section is bigger, and the buttons are bigger.
However, MRN-A Imperial Cruister arrives and pulls the Millennium Empath in with their tractor beam…Crap Nuggets!!…They’re stuck…and the narc-vessel deploys their codependent virus that disturbs Millennium Empath’s console. After raiding the ship, (the captain/pilot hides in the smuggling hold) the MRN-A Imperial Cruiser departs at Ludicrous Speed.
After the raid, Millennium Empath needs an engineer (therapist) to help them fix up the vessel. What is the potential of that console’s configuration to change, during the repair process. During time with MRN-A Imperial Cruiser, the Millennium Empath was frequently called on to fix Imperial Cruiser’s problems (savior). Surely, during the repair process, some of the codependency could be healed…and just from this encounter with an Imperial Cruiser…Millennium Empath learns to see that fixing every one of the Imperial Cruiser’s problems was unnecessary. So a piece of tape is put over the savior button to prevent it from being pushed as readily when the codependency is activated. This results in say a five percent reduction of CoD by the completion of therapy.
Over the course of the next year of galactic cruising:
1. They get a distress signal from their sister vessel, C-Mt (Contagion, Martyr) X-Wing who is stuck in the muck in the Dagoba…(lost their husband in a tragic accident and cannot afford house payments and will be homeless with two children without the Millennium Empath’s assistance)
2. They enter a new relationship with a normal, a trade vessel who accidentally becomes indebted to the Hutts, (partner having trouble at work).
3. Their CoD-C (codependent carrier) X-wing buddy gets into a tractored into a relationship with UMRN Imperial Cruiser…who keeps betting and losing money at the pod-races on Tatooine…(best friend in a bad relationship)
There will, of course, be many other incidents…and most will not be perfect matches to the situation for which they needed an engineer…So Millennium Empath learned that CoD-Savior button was problematic for them. So the Millennium Empath’s new console is 80% standard, 20% codependent. They have roughly a 27% chance of pushing geyser, carrier, or savior in Standard mode and 9.5% chance of geyser or carried being pushed in CoD mode…with one percent chance of Savior being pushed…someone has to really work diligently to remove the tape off…Millennium Empath is likely to notice it happening. So Millennium Empath will not go talk to the Hutts to get an extension on repaying the debt. Instead, they fountain with indignation at the unfairness of the Hutts with their trade-vessel partner.
If we think of pressing buttons as practicing certain flight patterns…if you’re no longer practicing that manoeuvrer…you lose the skill to fly in that way. However, you’re practicing new manoeuvrers, strengthening those. The Millennium Empath will never learn magnet or martyr manoeuvrers. They will never have a super or a contagion section on their console. The software/hardward is missing and can’t be acquired. Would practicing the geyser pattern on that CoD panel make it easier over time to push? To my thinking, Millennium Empath learned and changed to make a difference in their life. In consistently making a different choice or not making specific choices…the console should change.
If pressing one button repeatedly lands you in an asteroid field with mynocks sucking your power and in the belly of a space worm, change your flight pattern/deploy flares/do anything other than fly into an asteroid field and to almost get digested.
E.G. Three friends work together. Two of them get bullied into leaving. One remains in a different department of the same building (close enough to trigger follow up behaviors, and gets them). The other goes farther. The boss never seems to get reprimanded. Empathic person still employed is really irritated to see a third friend in the same situation, so the empath goes see their supervisor’s boss, upset…and gets reprimanded for picking on their supervisor, the best decision is not to go to the supervisor’s boss again. (It’s a trap!) That person is not going to help them. They don’t have to choose a less empathic behavior to help their newly hired friend. They should choose a different empathic behavior to help themself. They should have trusted their instincts when nothing constructive was done with other complaints (outside their division) and continued in the same behavioral style of empathy toward their friends.
What the boss’s supervisor did does not make them a narcissist. Some people just don’t like confrontation…if that boss has never dealt with an employee who behaves in that unprofessional way, it doesn’t seem believable…that doesn’t make them a bad person. It just makes them ignorant, and I think most people are or have been ignorant about these kinds of people…narcissistic/narcissists, which may be the case for the supervisor in this case.
I know patterns can be more difficult for some to escape than others. In similar situations, pushing other buttons doesn’t result in giving a space worm indigestion/almost being digested. The behaviors associated with the other buttons are no less empathic. As you continue to press those buttons, those skills grow. Those patterns become more reliable and comfortable. The skill you’re using less should reduce.
I think hybrids have the ?easiest? opportunity to reconfigure…everything being closer to equal in size at the start…but I think there are possibilities for those with majorities as well. It really depends on the person in question, what the goal is, etc. And I’m sure it’s more complicated than that…but I think it’s be doable, if someone wants to. And I think it would result in noticeable changes; hopefully ones that the person implementing would find result in less stress.
Sorry if I got carried away with the Star Wars analogy…I started having too much fun *smiles and shrugs* Looking forward to reading other thoughts.
Hi Dani,
I enjoyed reading your analogy. “Crap nuggets” is brilliant, lol! I’m definitely stealing that phrase!
I see two obstacles. As empaths, we’ve often been conditioned by the narcissists in our life to respond and react in a certain way. Without awareness that we’re empaths and we’ve been conditioned, how do we work on turning off that conditioning?
The second obstacle is our addiction to narcissists and using our empathic traits. That addiction is strong. We often will con ourselves in order to continue interacting and using our empathic traits. It pulls on in. Again, without awareness, how do we work on minimizing the addiction?
I think with awareness, there’s definitely more possibility. I know for myself, I’ve seen an erosion in my empathy and I’m pushing those buttons a lot less often now.
I don’t know that I can follow the path either. I don’t know if it’s possible. But I think if certain behaviors noticeably cause detrimental effects and their cause can be identified…habitually not engaging in what causes the detrimental side effect should produce some kind of steady change.
I don’t think major changes are possible. I don’t think if someone’s cadres are 70% saviour, 20% martyr, 10% geyser that they can permanently flip to 40% geyser, 15% martyr, 45% saviour. I don’t think that level of flexibility exists. Similarly for schools, 75% super with 25% contagion won’t suddenly become a hybrid of the two or a majority contagion. But a 10%-15% move in any direction seems doable with empathic self-reflection and a desire to get better results personally.
So please tell me, Jordy, do you prefer ancient weapons and hokey religions or a good blaster at your side?
Do remember…
“The ability to change empathic behavior (destroy a planet) is insignificant compared to the power of the Ultra (Force).” — How much fun would it be to hear HG say that without the parentheses?
(Empath: I can GOSO. And do no contact.
The Ultra: I find your lack of faith disturbing.)
The console is the empath console so it will have many powerful tools to overcome the minor numbers of dark troops and the empath constant le has minor weapons assigned to each one. First, the console is overall much better at community building than the narc console. It will quickly rouse the normal troopers and all shades of empaths to join the cause. There is power in masses. The majority is on board. Second, those teams will have “brotherhood. “ Something the dark troops can’t comprehend glueing their teams together on bullying, fear, and bargain not love of the fellow man. In fact, if a narc slipped into the light troopers platoon it might find itself falling into dark mass by the brothers who join as one in their indignity towards abuse or lock it away in cyberspace prison. Then there is the WILL to succeed generated within, why some people have the will to live and do and others do not, the community has powerful intent. To die to protect those you love … Give us Liberty! Equality! Fraternity! Maybe even it’s the right to serve the higher Light that’s at stake! Rome wasn’t built in a day but it sure did fall. Legions of healers return the troops to battle. Certain great empaths will emerge such as the MLK Jr matyr yeti master who will give up his life and take terrifying death defying risks in doing so. He may be assassinated by the dark troops for those risks but his words will live on and on and on through the ages to encourage those who want to bring the light. Finally the light troopers are better able at keeping babies alive than the dark trooper mothers so the species continues! I don’t know the outcome, the battle continues….laser swords up! Beams bright!
AV, I did see your comment, and I had part of a long answer written when I lost it. I’m still working out some of the details, and I will get it worked out, but it might take me a day or two.
Hi Dani,
I did reply a few days ago to your longer comment, it must be in moderation. Unless i said something unintentionally that broke the rules, I don’t think so? But it did have some trouble going also, so maybe it didn’t make it. If not, I’ll recap at some point, I enjoyed reading your comment a lot. Thank you!
Narcissist lawyers and Judges certainly add to frustration in the legal system. We expect fairness, but we get whatever is on their mask carousel that day. Good thing there is guidance available here in one of their own to help navigate. I am happy to read testimonies to the effectiveness of HG’s guidance where it has been sought.
NarcAngel: since I have practiced in several states for 31 years, I can tell you that judges are almost always from the district attorneys office and sometimes large defense firms. So think what type of person has a criminal prosecution background and where they stand. Their pay is low to many lawyers so you don’t always get a bright judge. Second, most want to go to private mediation. Keep that in mind. They are supposed to be neutral. With all this is mind, they hate appeals and there are rules of conduct they must follow. For example, there was a case in the last five years where an African American woman sued for racial discrimination. The African American judge read from Martin Luther King to the jury and engaged in other biased tactics and resulted in an over million dollar win. The case was dismissed on appeal with instruction on bias. That is not to say politics or bias don’t go up the food chain but courts higher up tend to impose rules and precedent cases. Tend. Look at the US Supreme Court in Roe v Wade. Lawyers get to know who is who and will pick a jury if a judge is not fair. You can challenge a judge at the start of a case called a peremptory challenge. Also behind the scenes they weed each other out sending less favorable judges to less popular venues. There are many good judges too. Fair. Wise.
About a decade ago I had “sth spiritually” happen to me, that connected me (or REconnected me, to be more precise) to let’s call it “THE INTELLIGENCE” that guides/plans/oversees ALL our lives. “Too hard to believe” I KNOW, but that doesn’t matter.
“FOR THIS CONTEXT” (trying to keep it as simple as possible) I had to understand a few things ON A BROADER SCALE, and was given “ONLY THE BEST” LIKE YOU, to learn from/thru.
Long story short:
“THE NARCISSISTS” from that pov has quite another meaning, (and even A POSITIVE ONE) that I’M EXPERIENCING every single day bc I’m living with one. “HIS FURY” has “THAAANK GOD” lessened lately, prob bc I’m NATURALLY treating him like a Geisha SINCE UNDERSTANDING “WHY/WHAT FOR” WE’VE COME TOGETHER (some +20 yrs ago). Btw. What you call “being ADDICTED to a narcissist” is called “a CONTRACT” “made in heaven” so to speak ironically.
“What’s the point in saying all this here?” Idk yet but normally pretty much right after posting this AND “Thx to you” Monsignore Tudor! (“Words” are “MECHANICS” and “DEPENDING ON WHO” one’s talking to blablablaaahhh…)
You’ve said that cadres/schools can move up and down. They can’t be spontaneously generated, someone who tested with no super can’t develop super empathy or get the magnet if they don’t have it…but moving super empathy from insignificant to significant…you’ve said in a life that it’s possible for those to vary.
1. Are there ways, outside hanging around a narcissist, to really exercise specific schools to strengthen them?
2. Are there ways to strengthen cadres in the same way?
3. If yes to either 1 or 2, would that come at the “price” of reducing another?
4. If (as an example) it is possible to say strengthen super empathy from insignificant into significant…would cadres likely get “jiggled” in doing this?
Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
1. Have you known anyone to try this?
2. What would be most useful for the empath considering this to know specifically before experimenting?
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated.
1. Try what? I do not see previous comments in the moderation pane so you will need to be specific.
2. Same applies. You will need to be specific please.
Strengthening specific schools/cadres.
1. Have you known anyone to try this?
2. What would be most useful for the empath considering this to know specifically before experimenting?
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated.
If the objective was to strengthen your SE percentage, I would imagine that placing yourself into a stressful situation would be the most direct route to achieving that. I’m not sure it would be worth the stress to move a few percentage points.
Similarly it’s difficult to ‘create’ a stressful situation that would cause the Super Empathy to ‘flex’. The very fact the situation is created would mean there is also a very clear ‘out’ to that situation therefore no real need for the empathy to ‘flex’.
That’s simply my interpretation from what I know of that school. Others might view it differently.
I never indicated this going beyond theory and what I’ve heard HG say regarding the flexibility of the schools/cadres in some videos. I was curious as to what had been tried and what data were available. Super Empath was the perfect example owing to the admiration that many have for that school.
I don’t think that super empaths go looking for trouble to flex their super empathy. HG Tudor: “They [super empaths] are not unhinged lunatics who go out looking to take down the narcissist.” “They have an inner strength and resiliency.”
How I interpret the super school is that they act with greater assertiveness when someone is mistreating them/others. They put their foot down…say, “This far, no further. Or I [Captain Picard] will make them pay for what they’ve done.” (couldn’t resist the chance to quote Picard, played by Sir Patrick Stewart (super empath extraordinaire) who took on HG’s vile enemy, the a***hole.)
“Similarly it’s difficult to ‘create’ a stressful situation that would cause the Super Empathy to ‘flex’.” — Disagree. To my mind, it’s impossible to create a stressful situation with the intent to flex super empathy. It has to be a naturally occurring situation. It has to be a conscious choice to change tactics more quickly.
Certain periods of time are more stressful and some of those times are cyclical in nature for people. Holidays for example. Some of that stress is predictable. The choice to be more assertive in those times seems possible to me. It would require hard work and a tenacious, empathic go-getter spirit…I feel that there’s empath malleability present that has yet to be explored.
It doesn’t seem to my mind, at this moment, that an empath working on super empathy would benefit in terms of increasing it if dealing with a narcissist in the moment. “Get out, Stay out,” as HG rightfully reiterates. Being more assertive with them gives them fuel–just what they’re looking for.
But could a bit more assertiveness for a Codependent (the school that gives till it hurts) or a Contagian (the school which I understand is more likely to withdraw from confrontation) with normals/narcissistic people result in the ability to maintain a healthier relationship?
If giving and giving results in the normal/narcissistic person taking advantage–purposefully (more likely narcissistic) or otherwise (normal)–of a Codependent, would being able to “call on the super” more easily help with those situations?
Similarly, if repeated hurtful comments are something that a contagian responds due via withdrawing from the situation, but withdrawing doesn’t actually put a stop to the obnoxious behavior (possibly because the normal doesn’t notice or consider it or the narcissistic person is being manipulative)…withdrawing isn’t working. Would a change of a tactic be in order?
For the standard empath, going along to get along wouldn’t be working either. (That is rather the basic principle of the empath that is a standard.)
HG said that no one has tried (to his knowledge). There are no data. There are difficulties, were an empath to take altering personal conduct from discussion into practice. But I think there would be benefits to it as well. There may be ways to target the changes…there may not. It’s the Empath Frontier, TS. Testing absent extreme abuse. An unbiased way of determining progress would be required. (The empath could not be self-assessing.) Among other difficulties for gathering of quality data or having a good experiment set-up.
My conclusion:
Objective evaluation: impossible without HG
finding the most logical way to begin: extremely difficult without HG
Those are my current thoughts. Looking forward to reading your thoughts.
Interesting discussion TS & Dani! Hope you don’t mind me butting in.
TS: “Similarly it’s difficult to ‘create’ a stressful situation that would cause the Super Empathy to ‘flex’.”
Dani: “Disagree. To my mind, it’s impossible to create a stressful situation with the intent to flex super empathy. It has to be a naturally occurring situation. It has to be a conscious choice to change tactics more quickly.”
When reading this it reminded me of a struggle I had, in my family law matter (so, not exactly artificially contrived), where I experienced much anxiety and fear (of potential repercussions) when not simply complying with the expectations of the court.
In my case, having a potential third party individual to supervise access between my son and his father has, historically, been an issue. Following my escape, the isolation, being what it was, meant I had no one (no family or friends) who could fulfill this role when it would, periodically, come up in court. For example, I had one judge suggest that access could happen outside the Center (where is was occuring and be professionally supervised) if we had a third party to do the supervision. When I said to the judge (I was self-representing that day) that I had a very small support circle but no one who was in a position to commit to this role, I think he just thought I was being difficult. He couldn’t understand how this hurdle could not be surmounted and said to me: “You know you risk Dad coming back to court with his own third party and the next judge simply giving the go ahead for that, right?”
So many things played through my head in those few seconds before I responded. Then, I simply nodded to confirm that I understood. I recognized that the chance of my ex doing that (while very small) could put me in an interesting position, as I would have liked to choose the person to do that, if absolutely necessary, and I would be forced to accept his choice of person – if he actually provided one. But, to me, the greater risk was how I would look to the courts if I did not actively pursue a solution, myself (because you’re suppose to present like you support contact between your child and the non-custodial parent – even if, at core, you do not.)
All of my Narcsite knowledge (including that of my ex, who has never wanted to solve his own problems, like, ever) and past consults with HG came into play – and I knew it was highly unlikely that my ex would come back to court with someone from his side to supervise access.
However, I kept thinking of that particular judge (from my experience with several judges, he came across as the most “pro-father” judge to date) and his expectations…so I almost convinced myself that I would have to coerce my friend to bend her schedule to help me out – and avoid the potential of looking like I was negatively impacting access – which aids any argument (from the opposing side) for ‘parental alienation.’
At the same time – in my mind – I kept replaying a past scene in my art studio where it struck me that I had allowed my ex to encroach past acceptable boundaries and caused me to not be able to do my own work (and therefore earn money) in support of myself and our son – and my brain – and inner anger – just exploded. (And still explodes, to this day, at the thought.)
It was a similar realization that if I pleaded with my friend to help (and she probably would, being an empath and knowing the expectations of the court herself) that I would, yet again, be using own extremely limited supports and resources to HELP HIM OUT…To help my ex solve his problems – because it is his own behaviour that’s resulted in him having *supervised* access – not my problem. It caused me a lot of anxiety and inner uneasiness to establish this boundary – but once I recognized that I had nearly caved – like I did in the art studio scenario – I committed to the choice to not cave to expectation – no matter how a judge may see it. And it resolved my anger and sense of unfairness to say “This far and no further”…even though I have some residual uneasiness at the thought of a future court date with that particular judge.
So, long story short – I had to, consciously, and actively assert the super empath part of me …but it was, in part, that my emotional empathy is so deeply eroded and the resentment runs deep at the thought of having to solve any problems of my ex’s own creation.
First, to clarify my original answer. My thinking there is that the Super Empathy is defensive, so in order to get the Super Empathy to ‘flex’ therefore to practice and strengthen it, the empath would need to be placed in a position of stress where the requirement for defence was such that the Super Empathy would activate.
In response to your further points I think in some ways we might be thinking in different terms so I’ll start there.
To me, the schools are largely representative of coping strategies that have been learned from childhood through to adulthood. As such these strategies, all defensive in their own way are embedded into the structure of the individual empath. Remember also that empaths are usually comprised of more than one school so to me the school percentages in the empath reflect the preference for one coping mechanism over another and this will be in response to a situational / behavioural trigger.
This is why I don’t see much capacity for a shift in school percentage. The coping strategies have been formed over a prolonged period of time in response to numerous different stressors. A prolonged period of calm for example might result in a slight shift in coping strategy preference but the engrained coping mechanisms would remain largely consistent over time if an empath was placed back into an abusive situation.
However, where I do agree that room for ‘improvement’ might be possible is within the behaviours that would be associated with particular schools. To me I view the school as the strategy, the behaviours as the tactics. There is room to practice the use of different tactics.
So you used assertiveness as an example. For some empaths it might be beneficial to be more assertive. I agree the situation for this to be practiced would need to be genuine. A stressful holiday would be an ideal opportunity to practice being more assertive. It isn’t abusive but it facilitates developing a specific tactic. There might well be a benefit to being more assertive so ‘improvement’ has therefore been made. Again though, even here, if someone is not naturally assertive I would consider if practicing assertiveness is going to help too much. Practiced assertiveness could feel and be perceived as ‘playing at it’ and the downside afterwards is that the empath just doesn’t feel comfortable, ends up being more aggressive than assertive, which results in them feeling bad about it because it just doesn’t feel like them. So for me, yes you could practice certain behaviours that might associate themselves with a particular school such as assertiveness, there might well be a benefit to doing so, but the downside would also need to be considered ie. What is the empath actually trying to achieve and why?
Lastly I think to raise percentage of a certain school, you would also need to look at the traits that are typically associated with that particular school. The problem here I think is that whilst you might expect high argumentativeness and high justice for example to be linked with the Super school there will be variances of trait strength within different Super Empaths as again, empaths are not solely one school.
So in summary, really my thinking is very much along the lines of, ‘I am what I am’. Our empathic strengths and weaknesses often only make a real difference when we are in abusive situations. Who creates those abusive situations personally or professionally? The narcissist. So rather than try to make changes to a school percentage, for me it is better to avoid the abusive situation where those empathic ‘strengths’ and ‘weaknesses’ come into play.
Behaviourally though, if becoming more assertive, more trusting, less trusting whatever it may be, would benefit the empath and the process of developing those skills is not too stressful in itself, I’d say yes, go for it, why not?
“My thinking there is that the Super Empathy is defensive, so in order to get the Super Empathy to ‘flex’ therefore to practice and strengthen it, the empath would need to be placed in a position of stress…” — I think there are plenty of naturally occurring every day situations where behavioral changes could be implemented. I don’t think that it would be a quick route, but I don’t think it would generally be stressful to the point of abusive is not the way I would encourage anyone intentionally to set about causing. I don’t think most people would.
“Remember also that empaths are usually comprised of more than one school so to me the school percentages in the empath reflect the preference for one coping mechanism over another and this will be in response to a situational / behavioural trigger.” — Exactly. Could growth be targeted in one area? Say someone with insignificant/significant Codependent wants to heal from it after getting out of a relationship with a narcissist who targeted those vulnerabilities. Could identifying the triggers that lead to the codependent behavior and learning to better identify when a switch occurs enable them to change coping strategy more readily? I don’t know that a majority codependent could make substantial gains in this. I think it would depend on the person. However, I swear I remember HG saying something similar to…”codependency when healed can result in stronger empathy.” I don’t remember which video it was…and I hope if I’m wrong/misremembering HG corrects me on this. I remember in the 100K interviews, HG was talking to a codependent empath…and she sounded like she really wanted to heal from it. Her pain from the relationship she escaped…and I think also the withdrawal symptoms she was dealing with being more intense than other schools was clear.
To me, consistently engaging in the behaviors–if the discomfort is not too great, and it certainly could be for some people–and switching to a new tactic…consistently over time should shift school. I think at most, from examples I’ve heard HG give, maybe a 5-10% shift could occur. But say you’re 20% codependent, 65% standard, 15% super–if the triggers could be identified and mostly eliminated…a 10% gain to super (or maybe more likely standard in this case) would be a large reduction in risk…of the codependency being activated.
“A stressful holiday would be an ideal opportunity to practice being more assertive. It isn’t abusive…” — They can become so, even with normals, but they’re an annual occurrence…and if an empath wants to be with people who may take advantage of them (some inadvertently), I think they can learn to speak up for themselves if they want to.
“Again though, even here, if someone is not naturally assertive I would consider if practicing assertiveness is going to help too much.” — I think it would be a conscious decisions, repeatedly…more than practicing…I think of it in a way like…like losing weight. You can’t diet short term and go back to eating all the junk food.
“What is the empath actually trying to achieve and why?” — It would vary based on the empath, I think.
“So in summary, really my thinking is very much along the lines of, ‘I am what I am’. Our empathic strengths and weaknesses often only make a real difference when we are in abusive situations.” — I think, “who could I be?” and “who could you be?”
“Who creates those abusive situations personally or professionally? The narcissist.” — Generally, yes. But I think plenty of normals can be just as heinous when they are certain that they are right about something…and that their behaviors can be problematic…it just won’t be prolonged and across a variety of situations. I think they can be short term abusive to an empath. They might not even notice it. If they are more narcissistic than average (but not a narcissist)…their emotional empathy would be low, and if the person is a work colleague as opposed to a spouse or child. And when people are certain that they are right, they tend to be bigger jerks. I have been around enough people that I would say were average, normal jerks. They cared for family members from what I saw and friends, but if they supervised someone they didn’t like so well… I don’t think every jerk merits the label of narcissist; for some of the ones that I have known, I haven’t seen enough of the behavior of them across enough different situations. HG has said that normals can be horrendous sometimes.
Others, I am sure have been narcissists…when you work with 20 people and 15 of them are all saying the new boss is a really nasty piece of work, who fakes positivity, chronically makes hateful remarks about specific staff behind their backs to the painted white crowd, instructs you to do something dubiously legal, bullies others, and many people describe that boss as “scary,” when you keep catching them in lies within their profession over the two years that they were the boss, targeting handicapped staff members and bullying them into retiring or getting them fired, ignoring emails from specific people (and those people show proof of when the email was sent), etc…then that boss gets fired…I think the writing is on the wall…
“So rather than try to make changes to a school percentage, for me it is better to avoid the abusive situation where those empathic ‘strengths’ and ‘weaknesses’ come into play.” — I agree when the person is known to engage in habitual abusive behaviors…but not everyone is…even all narcissists don’t abuse everyone around them in the same way…HG has friends. He manipulates and controls them when they are together…but he sees the benefit of having them as part of his facade…so he doesn’t habitually manipulate them malignly to control them. I’m sure that his inner circle friends know him as a most excellent person and would not believe a fraction of the way he treats his IPPS if the IPPS told them. They don’t see that man. HG has frequently said that he doesn’t need an audience when punishing his IPPS. There might be leaks around the edges…there might even be bad days…where there is a flurry of malicious behavior directed at one…but it’s easy to hoover them back…”I was having a bad day. This deadline I’m working toward is critical.” (I’m sure that there are numerous explanations HG can give, and people believe them. I bet they’re all highly plausible…)
Hopes this clarifies my thoughts on it! — I think so…and I am really enjoying this conversation. Thank you, TS.
Dani,
I hope you find this, no reply option under your comment. I don’t know exactly what you mean by strengthening specific schools/cadres but I have a couple thoughts about it. One is that I have worked very hard at becoming more assertive in general. I have not felt assertiveness tied to my super (very strong, not majority), but when I am in super mode, I find I am efficient. True in Standard mode, my majority, also, but in a different way. Super makes it more focused and intentional I think. In Standard I’m just kind of getting things done. I don’t know of a better way to describe it. But, I do practice assertiveness and HG was very helpful to me with that.
I do not think I can change either my Schools or Cadres but with the Cadres, I have learned to identify which one I’m functioning from at different times. From there I can decide if I want to proceed as I would naturally or if I want to change course. For example, Savior is my majority so where I function from most of the time. Now, being aware of this, I can consider if I want to spend time trying to “save” someone or some situation or if it’s not really my problem and save myself the headache. And the time. I love that I can do this, it makes me feel so much more in control of my own life. I also think I carry less than I used to and my Geyser has become slightly stronger, or at least less disliked, since learning about HG’s categories and where I fall within them.
I take your point about there being difficult normals, narcissistic people and even empaths. The difference being as you point out that it’s the narcissist who implements prolonged and abusive behaviours. I think the other problem for the empath is that the Emotional Thinking kicks in more strongly when dealing with the narcissist than it would under stress with the other groups. It’s often Emotional Thinking that drives our responses and in that situation the best option, where possible is not to engage or to have minimal engagement. (The Virtues of Keeping Your Mouth Shut.)
In many ways dealing with other problematic situations with other groups I think the same approach holds true. Minimal engagement. The difference here is that normals, empaths and narcissistic people are likely not consistently problematic so some form of working relationship can be formed in the longer term. Again my approach would be more along the lines of implementing what I have learned here in terms of dealing with a narcissist and using that as needed with other non narc problematic situations.
“I am what I am” versus “who could I be?” I think your version is probably more current with popular thinking. Improving oneself, being a better person, working on oneself etc. I think there is value to be had in that in the way that you are referring to it. In the way that ‘gurus’ refer to it, to me it’s just another stick to beat us with.
I see what you mean in terms of percentage shifts and an associated reduction in triggers for various schools. I think knowing what your own triggers are is a useful first step. If ET is low ( the king pin) there is a greater possibility of recognising a trigger and electing not to respond to it or to respond in a different way to ascertain if the alternative is more effective for the empath.
I do keep circling back to the same core idea though. Our empathic configuration is our configuration, like it or lump it. Empaths on the whole are good people so why should we change the way we behave as people to accommodate other problematic or abusive people? All of the schools are strong in their own way, so I’m more inclined to celebrate the school differences rather than trying to nudge myself towards what is perceived as being a ‘stronger’ school. There are behaviours I might change but with a view to making my life easier rather than associating them with particular schools.
Know yourself, know your triggers, know when your ET is high, recognise narcissists and avoid them, if you can’t avoid them, implement what we are taught here. Use this learning in daily interactions with other problematic people. I probably see more value in perfecting those things than necessarily focussing on nudging percentages in one direction or another. I do agree though that learning skills such as assertiveness skills or even presentation skills can be beneficial and aid with self confidence. Self confidence affects a lot of interactions and with all types of people.
I also think given the backgrounds of many here ACONS in particular, self acceptance is extremely important. We have been told we aren’t good enough, blamed, criticised, compared, evaluated and told repeatedly that x or y is wrong with us. Accepting ourselves as we are might in many ways be more beneficial long term than aspiring to be more of one school or another.
I just prompted myself to think of the kick message I leave to players when I kick them out of my team. (I play an online game.)
What a minefield that custody battle really is. That’s the first thing that crossed my mind when reading your thoughts. There’s so much game play involved. No wonder HG excels at it!
I think you provided an excellent example of what being self aware can actually achieve in terms of amending a natural response. We forget sometimes that since being here, taking the detectors, understanding narcissism better we are already far more self aware and better equipped to deal with narcissists than we ever were pre knowledge when first ensnared. I think your example proves how that knowledge and self understanding can be used to achieve the outcomes we want and in your example, need.
It does make sense that your Super Empathy would be accessed in that situation. I think in many ways you responded to the injustice of it all. Having to be there, having to fight, having to place pressure on a small support network, desperately trying to expose your son as little as is humanly possible to his father’s narcissism. All of it seems so unfair, to go through the mill when you are simply doing what is right for your child. All that and you can’t even say your bit, in the way you want to say it, silencing yourself to play the game. It makes sense to me that your Super was accessed. The situation called on those relevant traits. They were triggered I suppose.
I think your experience suggests that understanding fully the information available to us here can cause us to select one option over another when the situation calls for it. I think that self awareness is highly encouraging. Previously we didn’t have the tools to manage what we were faced with, now, we do.
Thank-you for your reply. Well, you hit it on the nose – I do find the injustice of the whole thing (the family law system in general) quite offensive. But it is what it is. And I do keep in mind that the players who have empathy – and accountability – actually want to act and make decisions with the best interest of the child(ren) at heart…they are simply misguided by their own world view and lack of a proper understanding of the individuals involved (for the most part.)
So, even when that judge said what he said about the other side, potentially, bringing their own party into the picture to do supervised access – he says that because he is a father (has a son – yes I googled him) and he has empathy (as far as I can tell) and he’s assuming that a father who really wants to see his child and build a relationship with said child will do what it takes to make that happen. Well – I know my ex better than that judge. My ex has never brought anyone in support of himself to court – nevermind offer a third person to supervise access. It just hasn’t happened and I will be very, very surprised if it ever does happen.
What you said in your first paragraph about game play is so accurate – it is all a game – but it definitely helps to understand the players and their particular motivations. That’s where my education from HG, plus my own observation skills join up and work to my advantage.
So – yes, self-awareness is advantageous and allows for more options than our ‘default’ setting – but, also awareness of the motivations of others helps inform that choice as well.
Thank you so much for sharing. The more minds in the discussion the more angles will be noticed.
“When reading this it reminded me of a struggle I had, in my family law matter (so, not exactly artificially contrived),” — Not contrived at all! Any loving parent would be in a state of terror especially after what you detailed of your long walk to freedom…
“When I said to the judge (I was self-representing that day) that I had a very small support circle but no one who was in a position to commit to this role, I think he just thought I was being difficult. He couldn’t understand how this hurdle could not be surmounted and said to me: “You know you risk Dad coming back to court with his own third party and the next judge simply giving the go ahead for that, right?” – Was your ex-husband present at this hearing? If so, Did he not see that “Dad” hadn’t brought anyone there to try to be the person who could supervise the visits either? (I wouldn’t have run my mouth to a judge and asked that, but still…aren’t they supposed to be unbiased? Yes, I know, they’re people and they don’t know everything. Judges should have mandatory HG lessons specifically for those in family court so they learn to spot the problem parent more easily.)
“so I almost convinced myself that I would have to coerce my friend to bend her schedule to help me out – and avoid the potential of looking like I was negatively impacting access – which aids any argument (from the opposing side) for ‘parental alienation.’” — The nightmare scenario of any parent dealing with an abusive ex. The videos of the empathic people who dealt with that that HG has made are very upsetting, but they are necessary to be aware of, for courts, for people in court battles with narcs, and court appointed supervisors.
“…caused me to not be able to do my own work (and therefore earn money) in support of myself and our son – and my brain – and inner anger – just exploded. (And still explodes, to this day, at the thought.)” — Very understandable. Were you angry with your ex or yourself or the situation more?
“And it resolved my anger and sense of unfairness to say “This far and no further”…even though I have some residual uneasiness at the thought of a future court date with that particular judge.” — I hope that all goes well for you as you continue to deal with this situation, and with HG on your side (and in your head, helping keep you logical), your ex will wrap the noose around his neck for you.
Thank you again for sharing this part of your continuing story.
To answer your questions about that day:
My ex (common-law) was present for that particular court appearance (this one was via Zoom) but had an out-of-town lawyer show up (must have paid him just for the day) to represent him – this lawyer was completely clueless regarding the history of our matter, as was the clear from his questions. My ex doesn’t really run his mouth (in court)…when it counts, and for the purposes of facade management, he presents as quiet-spoken, and a well-meaning father – but blameshifts and uses pity plays, he’s never brought anyone to court, nor shows off a new IPPS – or anyone for that matter. It works more to his advantage to portray himself as alone and his son as his “only family”.
He has never proposed a third party for supervision – this was simply this judge attempting to solve a problem evident to him because the (2 hour) access visits were not going well and I had been called repeatedly to come pick up my son early. This judge was of the opinion that the artificial nature of the Center (where access was taking place) could be negatively impacting the access visits and thought it could occur in more natural settings – while maintaining the supervision component. (Same old, same old: attributing the poor behaviour to external or alternative influences rather than accepting the poor behaviour as poor behaviour.)
Also, one learns that while judges are supposed to be unbiased – as humans, we all have biases, including judges.
They are no different. You can witness it play out in court. I note, from a Google search, that this particular judge also fights (in other areas of his life) for racial injustice and he is of a different ethnic background. My ex is also not from Canada and came to this country when he was 25, he is of a different background than the judge. But they could both be viewed as ‘outsiders’ I suppose – and this judge could have increased empathy towards my ex for that reason as well.
I completely agree with you on lessons for judges (as well as family law practitioners in general!) from HG Tudor.
“Were you angry with your ex or yourself or the situation more?”
Myself. Definitely myself.
Thank-you for your well wishes! And, indeed – I have said it before, but I swear by HG’s video “Give The Narcissist Enough Rope…”
Dani – just thinking of your comment on the importance of judges having an education from HG – I should mention that there was law recently passed in Ontario, Keira’s Law, that requires judicial education on intimate partner violence and coercive control. Here’s a link if you’re curious:
Yes, that judge with kids of his own probably is well meaning. Imagine if the tables were reversed and you were a MMRB (so, presenting as very sweet, very hard done by) and your ex was the empath. In that case the judge really would be doing the right thing by giving your ex the opportunity to build a relationship with your son.
Narcissism is so hidden behind that facade that unless decision makers really understand it, errors will continue to be made. Non narcissists see things through their own world view, in many instances actually trying to be fair, when fair with a narcissist is really just licence to take more.
Incredibly difficult for anyone outside of narcissism to safeguard against its impact. Even if decision makers were at a point where they could ask themselves the question, “Might this individual be a narcissist?” it would be a positive step forward.
Education about narcissism needs to be more widespread. I think it might be if more people understood just how prevalent it is. At least the term has entered mainstream conversation. It’s misused often, but it’s there. Accuracy though, real understanding I think will only come when many many more people share their experiences with others so that there actually becomes a more formal increased demand for accurate information. I can see that happening within my life time.
As HG’s information reaches more people, then further opportunities will come for increased exposure on mainstream platforms. Not more mainstream necessarily, academic I suppose. He needs to go head to head with the academics, the psychiatrists, psychologists and therapists. Some form of academic backing for his work to be rolled out in areas such as law enforcement, education, the judicial system. The problem there is you can’t be a disembodied voice. You have to show yourself. Maybe that’s part of the plan. At the point where that opportunity arises, professionally HG might no longer be impacted by showing who he is in person. Professionally he might be ready for a new career!
Come with a plan as they say, or pee on your boots.
Hi Everyone,
I’ve been thinking about this conversation and I had some thoughts. I think with self-awareness, we can change how we react and that might cause a slight change in schools or cadres.
WhoCares made a comment recently on the Compassion article that really stood out to me. She said, “One of the things that I am grateful for from my education here – other than being better able to recognize narcissists and therefore avoid exploitation of my empathy by them – is that my empathy is a valuable resource and I am allowed to exercise it with discretion – if I so choose.”
To me, that means we have control over our empathy now. We didn’t always. With Mr. Tudor giving us self awareness, we have the choice to draw the line in the sand quicker. So, since we’re drawing a line in the sand quicker, is that our super taking hold? Has awareness made us tap into the super quicker than we would’ve in the past?
I think of Boudicca when I get honk of a Super. I have a small percent super but it only comes out on rare occasions. I am a super fan. I admire their gusto as it takes strength to take on an injustice with your heart in your sleeve. I do think my contagion was at childhood and inherited as I am so much like my empath father. I didn’t do a test as everyone who knew him knows. My son called him a free spirit and only knew him at 5. Remember the saying you won’t remember what a person said but you will remember how they made you feel. My father made everyone feel accepted, loved, nurtured, supported and admired. I know every time I called him it was like the greatest thing ever happened to him. Each time. I adopted that strategy with my children, every greeting was Christmas morning to this day. I recommend it especially when young. But try it, every time they call no matter how tired or stressed, act like it’s the best thing that ever happened to you. Greet your children the same way. Listen as if what they have to say is profound and some day it will be. I know. As a child I would often turn to nature to soothe my soul, religion and the arts. I always had crazy dreams since birth that no one understood. HG has discussed the origins of narcissism, it would be lovely to be educated on where are cadres come from. No doubt, HG knows.
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AV, (and every one else who is reading)
I have a couple of ways that I’m visualizing this, based on everything Mr. Tudor has said, and I don’t feel fully satisfied with either, yet.
Facts: Most empaths are hybrids, in terms of school and cadre. Some have a majority school. Some have a majority cadre. Some will have very strong/strong schools cadres, (schools or cadres higher than the others.) Most are hybrids with no clear majority.
If we think of ourselves as captains and pilots of our brain-ships…like spaceships…(in HG’s case, it’s more of a battle station, a “Death Star” if you will)…then there is a command center with a way to know what is happening outside. Then everyone has a console in front of them with different buttons. The console of the normal is arranged the same way; the console of the narcissist has numerous configurations based on their school and cadre; the empath has numerous configurations based on school and cadre. The percentage of school determines the size of that portion of the console, and the percentage of cadre determines the size of buttons. (If an empath has a majority cadre, they have a large central button with smaller buttons around it. With a majority school and majority cadre, one large central section and one large central button. Etc.)
Let’s assume that we’re looking at the console majority Standard with a strong codependent element for school and a three way split of cadres between savior, carrier, and geyser, the Millennium Empath. Their console is unevenly divided, three quarters is standard and one quarter is codependent, and there are three buttons roughly the same size on each. Every decision the empath makes as they pilot that ship throughout their day will be governed by their emotional empathy (except when the empathy becomes eroded). With each danger encountered, then they must take action by pressing a button. They will likely choose a button from the standard portion of the console; that section is bigger, and the buttons are bigger.
However, MRN-A Imperial Cruister arrives and pulls the Millennium Empath in with their tractor beam…Crap Nuggets!!…They’re stuck…and the narc-vessel deploys their codependent virus that disturbs Millennium Empath’s console. After raiding the ship, (the captain/pilot hides in the smuggling hold) the MRN-A Imperial Cruiser departs at Ludicrous Speed.
After the raid, Millennium Empath needs an engineer (therapist) to help them fix up the vessel. What is the potential of that console’s configuration to change, during the repair process. During time with MRN-A Imperial Cruiser, the Millennium Empath was frequently called on to fix Imperial Cruiser’s problems (savior). Surely, during the repair process, some of the codependency could be healed…and just from this encounter with an Imperial Cruiser…Millennium Empath learns to see that fixing every one of the Imperial Cruiser’s problems was unnecessary. So a piece of tape is put over the savior button to prevent it from being pushed as readily when the codependency is activated. This results in say a five percent reduction of CoD by the completion of therapy.
Over the course of the next year of galactic cruising:
1. They get a distress signal from their sister vessel, C-Mt (Contagion, Martyr) X-Wing who is stuck in the muck in the Dagoba…(lost their husband in a tragic accident and cannot afford house payments and will be homeless with two children without the Millennium Empath’s assistance)
2. They enter a new relationship with a normal, a trade vessel who accidentally becomes indebted to the Hutts, (partner having trouble at work).
3. Their CoD-C (codependent carrier) X-wing buddy gets into a tractored into a relationship with UMRN Imperial Cruiser…who keeps betting and losing money at the pod-races on Tatooine…(best friend in a bad relationship)
There will, of course, be many other incidents…and most will not be perfect matches to the situation for which they needed an engineer…So Millennium Empath learned that CoD-Savior button was problematic for them. So the Millennium Empath’s new console is 80% standard, 20% codependent. They have roughly a 27% chance of pushing geyser, carrier, or savior in Standard mode and 9.5% chance of geyser or carried being pushed in CoD mode…with one percent chance of Savior being pushed…someone has to really work diligently to remove the tape off…Millennium Empath is likely to notice it happening. So Millennium Empath will not go talk to the Hutts to get an extension on repaying the debt. Instead, they fountain with indignation at the unfairness of the Hutts with their trade-vessel partner.
If we think of pressing buttons as practicing certain flight patterns…if you’re no longer practicing that manoeuvrer…you lose the skill to fly in that way. However, you’re practicing new manoeuvrers, strengthening those. The Millennium Empath will never learn magnet or martyr manoeuvrers. They will never have a super or a contagion section on their console. The software/hardward is missing and can’t be acquired. Would practicing the geyser pattern on that CoD panel make it easier over time to push? To my thinking, Millennium Empath learned and changed to make a difference in their life. In consistently making a different choice or not making specific choices…the console should change.
If pressing one button repeatedly lands you in an asteroid field with mynocks sucking your power and in the belly of a space worm, change your flight pattern/deploy flares/do anything other than fly into an asteroid field and to almost get digested.
E.G. Three friends work together. Two of them get bullied into leaving. One remains in a different department of the same building (close enough to trigger follow up behaviors, and gets them). The other goes farther. The boss never seems to get reprimanded. Empathic person still employed is really irritated to see a third friend in the same situation, so the empath goes see their supervisor’s boss, upset…and gets reprimanded for picking on their supervisor, the best decision is not to go to the supervisor’s boss again. (It’s a trap!) That person is not going to help them. They don’t have to choose a less empathic behavior to help their newly hired friend. They should choose a different empathic behavior to help themself. They should have trusted their instincts when nothing constructive was done with other complaints (outside their division) and continued in the same behavioral style of empathy toward their friends.
What the boss’s supervisor did does not make them a narcissist. Some people just don’t like confrontation…if that boss has never dealt with an employee who behaves in that unprofessional way, it doesn’t seem believable…that doesn’t make them a bad person. It just makes them ignorant, and I think most people are or have been ignorant about these kinds of people…narcissistic/narcissists, which may be the case for the supervisor in this case.
I know patterns can be more difficult for some to escape than others. In similar situations, pushing other buttons doesn’t result in giving a space worm indigestion/almost being digested. The behaviors associated with the other buttons are no less empathic. As you continue to press those buttons, those skills grow. Those patterns become more reliable and comfortable. The skill you’re using less should reduce.
I think hybrids have the ?easiest? opportunity to reconfigure…everything being closer to equal in size at the start…but I think there are possibilities for those with majorities as well. It really depends on the person in question, what the goal is, etc. And I’m sure it’s more complicated than that…but I think it’s be doable, if someone wants to. And I think it would result in noticeable changes; hopefully ones that the person implementing would find result in less stress.
Sorry if I got carried away with the Star Wars analogy…I started having too much fun *smiles and shrugs* Looking forward to reading other thoughts.
Hi Dani,
I enjoyed reading your analogy. “Crap nuggets” is brilliant, lol! I’m definitely stealing that phrase!
I see two obstacles. As empaths, we’ve often been conditioned by the narcissists in our life to respond and react in a certain way. Without awareness that we’re empaths and we’ve been conditioned, how do we work on turning off that conditioning?
The second obstacle is our addiction to narcissists and using our empathic traits. That addiction is strong. We often will con ourselves in order to continue interacting and using our empathic traits. It pulls on in. Again, without awareness, how do we work on minimizing the addiction?
I think with awareness, there’s definitely more possibility. I know for myself, I’ve seen an erosion in my empathy and I’m pushing those buttons a lot less often now.
Hi Leigh!
I’m glad you like “Crap nuggets”
And I agree that awareness is the key to the whole thing. And HG’s work is the best out there in building that awareness.
Down in Texas we always took our crap nuggets with a side of cow fries.
I had to Google cow fries. 😲 Ouchy!
Texans don’t do half measures.
Dani wow! “You’re going down a path I can’t follow.” (..can’t even follow my own recently, hehe) but I enjoyed reading it and the SW analogy!🤗🌟
„It really depends on the person in question, what the goal is, etc. And I’m sure it’s more complicated than that“
What the goal is, may depend on the midichlorian count after all…
Hi Jordy!
I don’t know that I can follow the path either. I don’t know if it’s possible. But I think if certain behaviors noticeably cause detrimental effects and their cause can be identified…habitually not engaging in what causes the detrimental side effect should produce some kind of steady change.
I don’t think major changes are possible. I don’t think if someone’s cadres are 70% saviour, 20% martyr, 10% geyser that they can permanently flip to 40% geyser, 15% martyr, 45% saviour. I don’t think that level of flexibility exists. Similarly for schools, 75% super with 25% contagion won’t suddenly become a hybrid of the two or a majority contagion. But a 10%-15% move in any direction seems doable with empathic self-reflection and a desire to get better results personally.
So please tell me, Jordy, do you prefer ancient weapons and hokey religions or a good blaster at your side?
Do remember…
“The ability to change empathic behavior (destroy a planet) is insignificant compared to the power of the Ultra (Force).” — How much fun would it be to hear HG say that without the parentheses?
(Empath: I can GOSO. And do no contact.
The Ultra: I find your lack of faith disturbing.)
Awe Dani!!! The force is strong in this one!!! LOL Love it!
hmmm….. Ancient weapons and hokey religions, I’d prefer.
What about you?
(Empath: I can GOSO. And do no contact.
The Ultra: I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Empath: Faith is lack, my Lord.)
The console is the empath console so it will have many powerful tools to overcome the minor numbers of dark troops and the empath constant le has minor weapons assigned to each one. First, the console is overall much better at community building than the narc console. It will quickly rouse the normal troopers and all shades of empaths to join the cause. There is power in masses. The majority is on board. Second, those teams will have “brotherhood. “ Something the dark troops can’t comprehend glueing their teams together on bullying, fear, and bargain not love of the fellow man. In fact, if a narc slipped into the light troopers platoon it might find itself falling into dark mass by the brothers who join as one in their indignity towards abuse or lock it away in cyberspace prison. Then there is the WILL to succeed generated within, why some people have the will to live and do and others do not, the community has powerful intent. To die to protect those you love … Give us Liberty! Equality! Fraternity! Maybe even it’s the right to serve the higher Light that’s at stake! Rome wasn’t built in a day but it sure did fall. Legions of healers return the troops to battle. Certain great empaths will emerge such as the MLK Jr matyr yeti master who will give up his life and take terrifying death defying risks in doing so. He may be assassinated by the dark troops for those risks but his words will live on and on and on through the ages to encourage those who want to bring the light. Finally the light troopers are better able at keeping babies alive than the dark trooper mothers so the species continues! I don’t know the outcome, the battle continues….laser swords up! Beams bright!
„MLK Jr matyr yeti master“
who???
“laser swords up! Beams bright!” 👈this!
😘
AV, I did see your comment, and I had part of a long answer written when I lost it. I’m still working out some of the details, and I will get it worked out, but it might take me a day or two.
Hi Dani,
I did reply a few days ago to your longer comment, it must be in moderation. Unless i said something unintentionally that broke the rules, I don’t think so? But it did have some trouble going also, so maybe it didn’t make it. If not, I’ll recap at some point, I enjoyed reading your comment a lot. Thank you!
Hi AV!
I’m glad you enjoyed it, and I look forward to reading all your observations when you have time to recap them.
Hope all is going well for you!
Narcissist lawyers and Judges certainly add to frustration in the legal system. We expect fairness, but we get whatever is on their mask carousel that day. Good thing there is guidance available here in one of their own to help navigate. I am happy to read testimonies to the effectiveness of HG’s guidance where it has been sought.
Agreed.
NA,
It’s good to see your avi in the side bar again. I still like to know that you are around. I hope all is well with you and yours.
Xx
Thank you, and likewise, TS.
NarcAngel: since I have practiced in several states for 31 years, I can tell you that judges are almost always from the district attorneys office and sometimes large defense firms. So think what type of person has a criminal prosecution background and where they stand. Their pay is low to many lawyers so you don’t always get a bright judge. Second, most want to go to private mediation. Keep that in mind. They are supposed to be neutral. With all this is mind, they hate appeals and there are rules of conduct they must follow. For example, there was a case in the last five years where an African American woman sued for racial discrimination. The African American judge read from Martin Luther King to the jury and engaged in other biased tactics and resulted in an over million dollar win. The case was dismissed on appeal with instruction on bias. That is not to say politics or bias don’t go up the food chain but courts higher up tend to impose rules and precedent cases. Tend. Look at the US Supreme Court in Roe v Wade. Lawyers get to know who is who and will pick a jury if a judge is not fair. You can challenge a judge at the start of a case called a peremptory challenge. Also behind the scenes they weed each other out sending less favorable judges to less popular venues. There are many good judges too. Fair. Wise.
Hello HG Tudor:
I only wanted to leave A HUGE “THANK YOU!” for making me understand sth very important a while back. WITHOUT YOU I wouldn’t be where I am today. 🙏🙏
You are welcome.
About a decade ago I had “sth spiritually” happen to me, that connected me (or REconnected me, to be more precise) to let’s call it “THE INTELLIGENCE” that guides/plans/oversees ALL our lives. “Too hard to believe” I KNOW, but that doesn’t matter.
“FOR THIS CONTEXT” (trying to keep it as simple as possible) I had to understand a few things ON A BROADER SCALE, and was given “ONLY THE BEST” LIKE YOU, to learn from/thru.
Long story short:
“THE NARCISSISTS” from that pov has quite another meaning, (and even A POSITIVE ONE) that I’M EXPERIENCING every single day bc I’m living with one. “HIS FURY” has “THAAANK GOD” lessened lately, prob bc I’m NATURALLY treating him like a Geisha SINCE UNDERSTANDING “WHY/WHAT FOR” WE’VE COME TOGETHER (some +20 yrs ago). Btw. What you call “being ADDICTED to a narcissist” is called “a CONTRACT” “made in heaven” so to speak ironically.
“What’s the point in saying all this here?” Idk yet but normally pretty much right after posting this AND “Thx to you” Monsignore Tudor! (“Words” are “MECHANICS” and “DEPENDING ON WHO” one’s talking to blablablaaahhh…)
Mr. Tudor–
You’ve said that cadres/schools can move up and down. They can’t be spontaneously generated, someone who tested with no super can’t develop super empathy or get the magnet if they don’t have it…but moving super empathy from insignificant to significant…you’ve said in a life that it’s possible for those to vary.
1. Are there ways, outside hanging around a narcissist, to really exercise specific schools to strengthen them?
2. Are there ways to strengthen cadres in the same way?
3. If yes to either 1 or 2, would that come at the “price” of reducing another?
4. If (as an example) it is possible to say strengthen super empathy from insignificant into significant…would cadres likely get “jiggled” in doing this?
Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
1. Your conduct could have a minimal impact.
2. See 2.
4. It might impact on the percentages concerning the cadres.
Thank you so much, sir. Much appreciated, and something to think about.
1. Have you known anyone to try this?
2. What would be most useful for the empath considering this to know specifically before experimenting?
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated.
1. Try what? I do not see previous comments in the moderation pane so you will need to be specific.
2. Same applies. You will need to be specific please.
Strengthening specific schools/cadres.
1. Have you known anyone to try this?
2. What would be most useful for the empath considering this to know specifically before experimenting?
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated.
1.No.
2. I have no observation with regard to this question.
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated.
Dani,
If the objective was to strengthen your SE percentage, I would imagine that placing yourself into a stressful situation would be the most direct route to achieving that. I’m not sure it would be worth the stress to move a few percentage points.
Similarly it’s difficult to ‘create’ a stressful situation that would cause the Super Empathy to ‘flex’. The very fact the situation is created would mean there is also a very clear ‘out’ to that situation therefore no real need for the empathy to ‘flex’.
That’s simply my interpretation from what I know of that school. Others might view it differently.
A logical answer and to be commended.
“A logical answer…”
Very much appreciated. Thank you HG.
Hi TS,
I never indicated this going beyond theory and what I’ve heard HG say regarding the flexibility of the schools/cadres in some videos. I was curious as to what had been tried and what data were available. Super Empath was the perfect example owing to the admiration that many have for that school.
I don’t think that super empaths go looking for trouble to flex their super empathy. HG Tudor: “They [super empaths] are not unhinged lunatics who go out looking to take down the narcissist.” “They have an inner strength and resiliency.”
How I interpret the super school is that they act with greater assertiveness when someone is mistreating them/others. They put their foot down…say, “This far, no further. Or I [Captain Picard] will make them pay for what they’ve done.” (couldn’t resist the chance to quote Picard, played by Sir Patrick Stewart (super empath extraordinaire) who took on HG’s vile enemy, the a***hole.)
“Similarly it’s difficult to ‘create’ a stressful situation that would cause the Super Empathy to ‘flex’.” — Disagree. To my mind, it’s impossible to create a stressful situation with the intent to flex super empathy. It has to be a naturally occurring situation. It has to be a conscious choice to change tactics more quickly.
Certain periods of time are more stressful and some of those times are cyclical in nature for people. Holidays for example. Some of that stress is predictable. The choice to be more assertive in those times seems possible to me. It would require hard work and a tenacious, empathic go-getter spirit…I feel that there’s empath malleability present that has yet to be explored.
It doesn’t seem to my mind, at this moment, that an empath working on super empathy would benefit in terms of increasing it if dealing with a narcissist in the moment. “Get out, Stay out,” as HG rightfully reiterates. Being more assertive with them gives them fuel–just what they’re looking for.
But could a bit more assertiveness for a Codependent (the school that gives till it hurts) or a Contagian (the school which I understand is more likely to withdraw from confrontation) with normals/narcissistic people result in the ability to maintain a healthier relationship?
If giving and giving results in the normal/narcissistic person taking advantage–purposefully (more likely narcissistic) or otherwise (normal)–of a Codependent, would being able to “call on the super” more easily help with those situations?
Similarly, if repeated hurtful comments are something that a contagian responds due via withdrawing from the situation, but withdrawing doesn’t actually put a stop to the obnoxious behavior (possibly because the normal doesn’t notice or consider it or the narcissistic person is being manipulative)…withdrawing isn’t working. Would a change of a tactic be in order?
For the standard empath, going along to get along wouldn’t be working either. (That is rather the basic principle of the empath that is a standard.)
HG said that no one has tried (to his knowledge). There are no data. There are difficulties, were an empath to take altering personal conduct from discussion into practice. But I think there would be benefits to it as well. There may be ways to target the changes…there may not. It’s the Empath Frontier, TS. Testing absent extreme abuse. An unbiased way of determining progress would be required. (The empath could not be self-assessing.) Among other difficulties for gathering of quality data or having a good experiment set-up.
My conclusion:
Objective evaluation: impossible without HG
finding the most logical way to begin: extremely difficult without HG
Those are my current thoughts. Looking forward to reading your thoughts.
Interesting discussion TS & Dani! Hope you don’t mind me butting in.
TS: “Similarly it’s difficult to ‘create’ a stressful situation that would cause the Super Empathy to ‘flex’.”
Dani: “Disagree. To my mind, it’s impossible to create a stressful situation with the intent to flex super empathy. It has to be a naturally occurring situation. It has to be a conscious choice to change tactics more quickly.”
When reading this it reminded me of a struggle I had, in my family law matter (so, not exactly artificially contrived), where I experienced much anxiety and fear (of potential repercussions) when not simply complying with the expectations of the court.
In my case, having a potential third party individual to supervise access between my son and his father has, historically, been an issue. Following my escape, the isolation, being what it was, meant I had no one (no family or friends) who could fulfill this role when it would, periodically, come up in court. For example, I had one judge suggest that access could happen outside the Center (where is was occuring and be professionally supervised) if we had a third party to do the supervision. When I said to the judge (I was self-representing that day) that I had a very small support circle but no one who was in a position to commit to this role, I think he just thought I was being difficult. He couldn’t understand how this hurdle could not be surmounted and said to me: “You know you risk Dad coming back to court with his own third party and the next judge simply giving the go ahead for that, right?”
So many things played through my head in those few seconds before I responded. Then, I simply nodded to confirm that I understood. I recognized that the chance of my ex doing that (while very small) could put me in an interesting position, as I would have liked to choose the person to do that, if absolutely necessary, and I would be forced to accept his choice of person – if he actually provided one. But, to me, the greater risk was how I would look to the courts if I did not actively pursue a solution, myself (because you’re suppose to present like you support contact between your child and the non-custodial parent – even if, at core, you do not.)
All of my Narcsite knowledge (including that of my ex, who has never wanted to solve his own problems, like, ever) and past consults with HG came into play – and I knew it was highly unlikely that my ex would come back to court with someone from his side to supervise access.
However, I kept thinking of that particular judge (from my experience with several judges, he came across as the most “pro-father” judge to date) and his expectations…so I almost convinced myself that I would have to coerce my friend to bend her schedule to help me out – and avoid the potential of looking like I was negatively impacting access – which aids any argument (from the opposing side) for ‘parental alienation.’
At the same time – in my mind – I kept replaying a past scene in my art studio where it struck me that I had allowed my ex to encroach past acceptable boundaries and caused me to not be able to do my own work (and therefore earn money) in support of myself and our son – and my brain – and inner anger – just exploded. (And still explodes, to this day, at the thought.)
It was a similar realization that if I pleaded with my friend to help (and she probably would, being an empath and knowing the expectations of the court herself) that I would, yet again, be using own extremely limited supports and resources to HELP HIM OUT…To help my ex solve his problems – because it is his own behaviour that’s resulted in him having *supervised* access – not my problem. It caused me a lot of anxiety and inner uneasiness to establish this boundary – but once I recognized that I had nearly caved – like I did in the art studio scenario – I committed to the choice to not cave to expectation – no matter how a judge may see it. And it resolved my anger and sense of unfairness to say “This far and no further”…even though I have some residual uneasiness at the thought of a future court date with that particular judge.
So, long story short – I had to, consciously, and actively assert the super empath part of me …but it was, in part, that my emotional empathy is so deeply eroded and the resentment runs deep at the thought of having to solve any problems of my ex’s own creation.
Hi Dani,
First, to clarify my original answer. My thinking there is that the Super Empathy is defensive, so in order to get the Super Empathy to ‘flex’ therefore to practice and strengthen it, the empath would need to be placed in a position of stress where the requirement for defence was such that the Super Empathy would activate.
In response to your further points I think in some ways we might be thinking in different terms so I’ll start there.
To me, the schools are largely representative of coping strategies that have been learned from childhood through to adulthood. As such these strategies, all defensive in their own way are embedded into the structure of the individual empath. Remember also that empaths are usually comprised of more than one school so to me the school percentages in the empath reflect the preference for one coping mechanism over another and this will be in response to a situational / behavioural trigger.
This is why I don’t see much capacity for a shift in school percentage. The coping strategies have been formed over a prolonged period of time in response to numerous different stressors. A prolonged period of calm for example might result in a slight shift in coping strategy preference but the engrained coping mechanisms would remain largely consistent over time if an empath was placed back into an abusive situation.
However, where I do agree that room for ‘improvement’ might be possible is within the behaviours that would be associated with particular schools. To me I view the school as the strategy, the behaviours as the tactics. There is room to practice the use of different tactics.
So you used assertiveness as an example. For some empaths it might be beneficial to be more assertive. I agree the situation for this to be practiced would need to be genuine. A stressful holiday would be an ideal opportunity to practice being more assertive. It isn’t abusive but it facilitates developing a specific tactic. There might well be a benefit to being more assertive so ‘improvement’ has therefore been made. Again though, even here, if someone is not naturally assertive I would consider if practicing assertiveness is going to help too much. Practiced assertiveness could feel and be perceived as ‘playing at it’ and the downside afterwards is that the empath just doesn’t feel comfortable, ends up being more aggressive than assertive, which results in them feeling bad about it because it just doesn’t feel like them. So for me, yes you could practice certain behaviours that might associate themselves with a particular school such as assertiveness, there might well be a benefit to doing so, but the downside would also need to be considered ie. What is the empath actually trying to achieve and why?
Lastly I think to raise percentage of a certain school, you would also need to look at the traits that are typically associated with that particular school. The problem here I think is that whilst you might expect high argumentativeness and high justice for example to be linked with the Super school there will be variances of trait strength within different Super Empaths as again, empaths are not solely one school.
So in summary, really my thinking is very much along the lines of, ‘I am what I am’. Our empathic strengths and weaknesses often only make a real difference when we are in abusive situations. Who creates those abusive situations personally or professionally? The narcissist. So rather than try to make changes to a school percentage, for me it is better to avoid the abusive situation where those empathic ‘strengths’ and ‘weaknesses’ come into play.
Behaviourally though, if becoming more assertive, more trusting, less trusting whatever it may be, would benefit the empath and the process of developing those skills is not too stressful in itself, I’d say yes, go for it, why not?
Hopes this clarifies my thoughts on it!
Xx
HI TS!
“My thinking there is that the Super Empathy is defensive, so in order to get the Super Empathy to ‘flex’ therefore to practice and strengthen it, the empath would need to be placed in a position of stress…” — I think there are plenty of naturally occurring every day situations where behavioral changes could be implemented. I don’t think that it would be a quick route, but I don’t think it would generally be stressful to the point of abusive is not the way I would encourage anyone intentionally to set about causing. I don’t think most people would.
“Remember also that empaths are usually comprised of more than one school so to me the school percentages in the empath reflect the preference for one coping mechanism over another and this will be in response to a situational / behavioural trigger.” — Exactly. Could growth be targeted in one area? Say someone with insignificant/significant Codependent wants to heal from it after getting out of a relationship with a narcissist who targeted those vulnerabilities. Could identifying the triggers that lead to the codependent behavior and learning to better identify when a switch occurs enable them to change coping strategy more readily? I don’t know that a majority codependent could make substantial gains in this. I think it would depend on the person. However, I swear I remember HG saying something similar to…”codependency when healed can result in stronger empathy.” I don’t remember which video it was…and I hope if I’m wrong/misremembering HG corrects me on this. I remember in the 100K interviews, HG was talking to a codependent empath…and she sounded like she really wanted to heal from it. Her pain from the relationship she escaped…and I think also the withdrawal symptoms she was dealing with being more intense than other schools was clear.
To me, consistently engaging in the behaviors–if the discomfort is not too great, and it certainly could be for some people–and switching to a new tactic…consistently over time should shift school. I think at most, from examples I’ve heard HG give, maybe a 5-10% shift could occur. But say you’re 20% codependent, 65% standard, 15% super–if the triggers could be identified and mostly eliminated…a 10% gain to super (or maybe more likely standard in this case) would be a large reduction in risk…of the codependency being activated.
“A stressful holiday would be an ideal opportunity to practice being more assertive. It isn’t abusive…” — They can become so, even with normals, but they’re an annual occurrence…and if an empath wants to be with people who may take advantage of them (some inadvertently), I think they can learn to speak up for themselves if they want to.
“Again though, even here, if someone is not naturally assertive I would consider if practicing assertiveness is going to help too much.” — I think it would be a conscious decisions, repeatedly…more than practicing…I think of it in a way like…like losing weight. You can’t diet short term and go back to eating all the junk food.
“What is the empath actually trying to achieve and why?” — It would vary based on the empath, I think.
“So in summary, really my thinking is very much along the lines of, ‘I am what I am’. Our empathic strengths and weaknesses often only make a real difference when we are in abusive situations.” — I think, “who could I be?” and “who could you be?”
“Who creates those abusive situations personally or professionally? The narcissist.” — Generally, yes. But I think plenty of normals can be just as heinous when they are certain that they are right about something…and that their behaviors can be problematic…it just won’t be prolonged and across a variety of situations. I think they can be short term abusive to an empath. They might not even notice it. If they are more narcissistic than average (but not a narcissist)…their emotional empathy would be low, and if the person is a work colleague as opposed to a spouse or child. And when people are certain that they are right, they tend to be bigger jerks. I have been around enough people that I would say were average, normal jerks. They cared for family members from what I saw and friends, but if they supervised someone they didn’t like so well… I don’t think every jerk merits the label of narcissist; for some of the ones that I have known, I haven’t seen enough of the behavior of them across enough different situations. HG has said that normals can be horrendous sometimes.
Others, I am sure have been narcissists…when you work with 20 people and 15 of them are all saying the new boss is a really nasty piece of work, who fakes positivity, chronically makes hateful remarks about specific staff behind their backs to the painted white crowd, instructs you to do something dubiously legal, bullies others, and many people describe that boss as “scary,” when you keep catching them in lies within their profession over the two years that they were the boss, targeting handicapped staff members and bullying them into retiring or getting them fired, ignoring emails from specific people (and those people show proof of when the email was sent), etc…then that boss gets fired…I think the writing is on the wall…
“So rather than try to make changes to a school percentage, for me it is better to avoid the abusive situation where those empathic ‘strengths’ and ‘weaknesses’ come into play.” — I agree when the person is known to engage in habitual abusive behaviors…but not everyone is…even all narcissists don’t abuse everyone around them in the same way…HG has friends. He manipulates and controls them when they are together…but he sees the benefit of having them as part of his facade…so he doesn’t habitually manipulate them malignly to control them. I’m sure that his inner circle friends know him as a most excellent person and would not believe a fraction of the way he treats his IPPS if the IPPS told them. They don’t see that man. HG has frequently said that he doesn’t need an audience when punishing his IPPS. There might be leaks around the edges…there might even be bad days…where there is a flurry of malicious behavior directed at one…but it’s easy to hoover them back…”I was having a bad day. This deadline I’m working toward is critical.” (I’m sure that there are numerous explanations HG can give, and people believe them. I bet they’re all highly plausible…)
Hopes this clarifies my thoughts on it! — I think so…and I am really enjoying this conversation. Thank you, TS.
Dani,
I hope you find this, no reply option under your comment. I don’t know exactly what you mean by strengthening specific schools/cadres but I have a couple thoughts about it. One is that I have worked very hard at becoming more assertive in general. I have not felt assertiveness tied to my super (very strong, not majority), but when I am in super mode, I find I am efficient. True in Standard mode, my majority, also, but in a different way. Super makes it more focused and intentional I think. In Standard I’m just kind of getting things done. I don’t know of a better way to describe it. But, I do practice assertiveness and HG was very helpful to me with that.
I do not think I can change either my Schools or Cadres but with the Cadres, I have learned to identify which one I’m functioning from at different times. From there I can decide if I want to proceed as I would naturally or if I want to change course. For example, Savior is my majority so where I function from most of the time. Now, being aware of this, I can consider if I want to spend time trying to “save” someone or some situation or if it’s not really my problem and save myself the headache. And the time. I love that I can do this, it makes me feel so much more in control of my own life. I also think I carry less than I used to and my Geyser has become slightly stronger, or at least less disliked, since learning about HG’s categories and where I fall within them.
Hi Dani,
I take your point about there being difficult normals, narcissistic people and even empaths. The difference being as you point out that it’s the narcissist who implements prolonged and abusive behaviours. I think the other problem for the empath is that the Emotional Thinking kicks in more strongly when dealing with the narcissist than it would under stress with the other groups. It’s often Emotional Thinking that drives our responses and in that situation the best option, where possible is not to engage or to have minimal engagement. (The Virtues of Keeping Your Mouth Shut.)
In many ways dealing with other problematic situations with other groups I think the same approach holds true. Minimal engagement. The difference here is that normals, empaths and narcissistic people are likely not consistently problematic so some form of working relationship can be formed in the longer term. Again my approach would be more along the lines of implementing what I have learned here in terms of dealing with a narcissist and using that as needed with other non narc problematic situations.
“I am what I am” versus “who could I be?” I think your version is probably more current with popular thinking. Improving oneself, being a better person, working on oneself etc. I think there is value to be had in that in the way that you are referring to it. In the way that ‘gurus’ refer to it, to me it’s just another stick to beat us with.
I see what you mean in terms of percentage shifts and an associated reduction in triggers for various schools. I think knowing what your own triggers are is a useful first step. If ET is low ( the king pin) there is a greater possibility of recognising a trigger and electing not to respond to it or to respond in a different way to ascertain if the alternative is more effective for the empath.
I do keep circling back to the same core idea though. Our empathic configuration is our configuration, like it or lump it. Empaths on the whole are good people so why should we change the way we behave as people to accommodate other problematic or abusive people? All of the schools are strong in their own way, so I’m more inclined to celebrate the school differences rather than trying to nudge myself towards what is perceived as being a ‘stronger’ school. There are behaviours I might change but with a view to making my life easier rather than associating them with particular schools.
Know yourself, know your triggers, know when your ET is high, recognise narcissists and avoid them, if you can’t avoid them, implement what we are taught here. Use this learning in daily interactions with other problematic people. I probably see more value in perfecting those things than necessarily focussing on nudging percentages in one direction or another. I do agree though that learning skills such as assertiveness skills or even presentation skills can be beneficial and aid with self confidence. Self confidence affects a lot of interactions and with all types of people.
I also think given the backgrounds of many here ACONS in particular, self acceptance is extremely important. We have been told we aren’t good enough, blamed, criticised, compared, evaluated and told repeatedly that x or y is wrong with us. Accepting ourselves as we are might in many ways be more beneficial long term than aspiring to be more of one school or another.
I just prompted myself to think of the kick message I leave to players when I kick them out of my team. (I play an online game.)
“ It’s not me. It’s you.” Haha! I’m such an ass.
Xx
Hi Who Cares,
What a minefield that custody battle really is. That’s the first thing that crossed my mind when reading your thoughts. There’s so much game play involved. No wonder HG excels at it!
I think you provided an excellent example of what being self aware can actually achieve in terms of amending a natural response. We forget sometimes that since being here, taking the detectors, understanding narcissism better we are already far more self aware and better equipped to deal with narcissists than we ever were pre knowledge when first ensnared. I think your example proves how that knowledge and self understanding can be used to achieve the outcomes we want and in your example, need.
It does make sense that your Super Empathy would be accessed in that situation. I think in many ways you responded to the injustice of it all. Having to be there, having to fight, having to place pressure on a small support network, desperately trying to expose your son as little as is humanly possible to his father’s narcissism. All of it seems so unfair, to go through the mill when you are simply doing what is right for your child. All that and you can’t even say your bit, in the way you want to say it, silencing yourself to play the game. It makes sense to me that your Super was accessed. The situation called on those relevant traits. They were triggered I suppose.
I think your experience suggests that understanding fully the information available to us here can cause us to select one option over another when the situation calls for it. I think that self awareness is highly encouraging. Previously we didn’t have the tools to manage what we were faced with, now, we do.
Xx
TS,
Thank-you for your reply. Well, you hit it on the nose – I do find the injustice of the whole thing (the family law system in general) quite offensive. But it is what it is. And I do keep in mind that the players who have empathy – and accountability – actually want to act and make decisions with the best interest of the child(ren) at heart…they are simply misguided by their own world view and lack of a proper understanding of the individuals involved (for the most part.)
So, even when that judge said what he said about the other side, potentially, bringing their own party into the picture to do supervised access – he says that because he is a father (has a son – yes I googled him) and he has empathy (as far as I can tell) and he’s assuming that a father who really wants to see his child and build a relationship with said child will do what it takes to make that happen. Well – I know my ex better than that judge. My ex has never brought anyone in support of himself to court – nevermind offer a third person to supervise access. It just hasn’t happened and I will be very, very surprised if it ever does happen.
What you said in your first paragraph about game play is so accurate – it is all a game – but it definitely helps to understand the players and their particular motivations. That’s where my education from HG, plus my own observation skills join up and work to my advantage.
So – yes, self-awareness is advantageous and allows for more options than our ‘default’ setting – but, also awareness of the motivations of others helps inform that choice as well.
Hi, Who Cares–
Thank you so much for sharing. The more minds in the discussion the more angles will be noticed.
“When reading this it reminded me of a struggle I had, in my family law matter (so, not exactly artificially contrived),” — Not contrived at all! Any loving parent would be in a state of terror especially after what you detailed of your long walk to freedom…
“When I said to the judge (I was self-representing that day) that I had a very small support circle but no one who was in a position to commit to this role, I think he just thought I was being difficult. He couldn’t understand how this hurdle could not be surmounted and said to me: “You know you risk Dad coming back to court with his own third party and the next judge simply giving the go ahead for that, right?” – Was your ex-husband present at this hearing? If so, Did he not see that “Dad” hadn’t brought anyone there to try to be the person who could supervise the visits either? (I wouldn’t have run my mouth to a judge and asked that, but still…aren’t they supposed to be unbiased? Yes, I know, they’re people and they don’t know everything. Judges should have mandatory HG lessons specifically for those in family court so they learn to spot the problem parent more easily.)
“so I almost convinced myself that I would have to coerce my friend to bend her schedule to help me out – and avoid the potential of looking like I was negatively impacting access – which aids any argument (from the opposing side) for ‘parental alienation.’” — The nightmare scenario of any parent dealing with an abusive ex. The videos of the empathic people who dealt with that that HG has made are very upsetting, but they are necessary to be aware of, for courts, for people in court battles with narcs, and court appointed supervisors.
“…caused me to not be able to do my own work (and therefore earn money) in support of myself and our son – and my brain – and inner anger – just exploded. (And still explodes, to this day, at the thought.)” — Very understandable. Were you angry with your ex or yourself or the situation more?
“And it resolved my anger and sense of unfairness to say “This far and no further”…even though I have some residual uneasiness at the thought of a future court date with that particular judge.” — I hope that all goes well for you as you continue to deal with this situation, and with HG on your side (and in your head, helping keep you logical), your ex will wrap the noose around his neck for you.
Thank you again for sharing this part of your continuing story.
Thanks Dani, for your reply.
To answer your questions about that day:
My ex (common-law) was present for that particular court appearance (this one was via Zoom) but had an out-of-town lawyer show up (must have paid him just for the day) to represent him – this lawyer was completely clueless regarding the history of our matter, as was the clear from his questions. My ex doesn’t really run his mouth (in court)…when it counts, and for the purposes of facade management, he presents as quiet-spoken, and a well-meaning father – but blameshifts and uses pity plays, he’s never brought anyone to court, nor shows off a new IPPS – or anyone for that matter. It works more to his advantage to portray himself as alone and his son as his “only family”.
He has never proposed a third party for supervision – this was simply this judge attempting to solve a problem evident to him because the (2 hour) access visits were not going well and I had been called repeatedly to come pick up my son early. This judge was of the opinion that the artificial nature of the Center (where access was taking place) could be negatively impacting the access visits and thought it could occur in more natural settings – while maintaining the supervision component. (Same old, same old: attributing the poor behaviour to external or alternative influences rather than accepting the poor behaviour as poor behaviour.)
Also, one learns that while judges are supposed to be unbiased – as humans, we all have biases, including judges.
They are no different. You can witness it play out in court. I note, from a Google search, that this particular judge also fights (in other areas of his life) for racial injustice and he is of a different ethnic background. My ex is also not from Canada and came to this country when he was 25, he is of a different background than the judge. But they could both be viewed as ‘outsiders’ I suppose – and this judge could have increased empathy towards my ex for that reason as well.
I completely agree with you on lessons for judges (as well as family law practitioners in general!) from HG Tudor.
“Were you angry with your ex or yourself or the situation more?”
Myself. Definitely myself.
Thank-you for your well wishes! And, indeed – I have said it before, but I swear by HG’s video “Give The Narcissist Enough Rope…”
Dani – just thinking of your comment on the importance of judges having an education from HG – I should mention that there was law recently passed in Ontario, Keira’s Law, that requires judicial education on intimate partner violence and coercive control. Here’s a link if you’re curious:
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6815711
It’s not about narcissism per se, but it is movement in the right direction.
Correction: Keira’s Law, or Bill C-233, is now a federal law in Canada.
Who Cares,
Yes, that judge with kids of his own probably is well meaning. Imagine if the tables were reversed and you were a MMRB (so, presenting as very sweet, very hard done by) and your ex was the empath. In that case the judge really would be doing the right thing by giving your ex the opportunity to build a relationship with your son.
Narcissism is so hidden behind that facade that unless decision makers really understand it, errors will continue to be made. Non narcissists see things through their own world view, in many instances actually trying to be fair, when fair with a narcissist is really just licence to take more.
Incredibly difficult for anyone outside of narcissism to safeguard against its impact. Even if decision makers were at a point where they could ask themselves the question, “Might this individual be a narcissist?” it would be a positive step forward.
Education about narcissism needs to be more widespread. I think it might be if more people understood just how prevalent it is. At least the term has entered mainstream conversation. It’s misused often, but it’s there. Accuracy though, real understanding I think will only come when many many more people share their experiences with others so that there actually becomes a more formal increased demand for accurate information. I can see that happening within my life time.
As HG’s information reaches more people, then further opportunities will come for increased exposure on mainstream platforms. Not more mainstream necessarily, academic I suppose. He needs to go head to head with the academics, the psychiatrists, psychologists and therapists. Some form of academic backing for his work to be rolled out in areas such as law enforcement, education, the judicial system. The problem there is you can’t be a disembodied voice. You have to show yourself. Maybe that’s part of the plan. At the point where that opportunity arises, professionally HG might no longer be impacted by showing who he is in person. Professionally he might be ready for a new career!
Come with a plan as they say, or pee on your boots.
Xx
Hi Everyone,
I’ve been thinking about this conversation and I had some thoughts. I think with self-awareness, we can change how we react and that might cause a slight change in schools or cadres.
WhoCares made a comment recently on the Compassion article that really stood out to me. She said, “One of the things that I am grateful for from my education here – other than being better able to recognize narcissists and therefore avoid exploitation of my empathy by them – is that my empathy is a valuable resource and I am allowed to exercise it with discretion – if I so choose.”
https://narcsite.com/2023/08/09/psychopath-compassion/#comment-447543
To me, that means we have control over our empathy now. We didn’t always. With Mr. Tudor giving us self awareness, we have the choice to draw the line in the sand quicker. So, since we’re drawing a line in the sand quicker, is that our super taking hold? Has awareness made us tap into the super quicker than we would’ve in the past?
Hi Dani,
Are you considering attempting some changes to your own empathic make up? Or are you more curious about it in theory?
Hi Annaamel–
I’ve sent a long response to TS that hopefully explains my thoughts in more detail.
Thankyou Dani.
I think of Boudicca when I get honk of a Super. I have a small percent super but it only comes out on rare occasions. I am a super fan. I admire their gusto as it takes strength to take on an injustice with your heart in your sleeve. I do think my contagion was at childhood and inherited as I am so much like my empath father. I didn’t do a test as everyone who knew him knows. My son called him a free spirit and only knew him at 5. Remember the saying you won’t remember what a person said but you will remember how they made you feel. My father made everyone feel accepted, loved, nurtured, supported and admired. I know every time I called him it was like the greatest thing ever happened to him. Each time. I adopted that strategy with my children, every greeting was Christmas morning to this day. I recommend it especially when young. But try it, every time they call no matter how tired or stressed, act like it’s the best thing that ever happened to you. Greet your children the same way. Listen as if what they have to say is profound and some day it will be. I know. As a child I would often turn to nature to soothe my soul, religion and the arts. I always had crazy dreams since birth that no one understood. HG has discussed the origins of narcissism, it would be lovely to be educated on where are cadres come from. No doubt, HG knows.
‘when I get honk of a Super.’
Your fast phone posting sometimes creates some delightful typos Contagious. This one might be my favourite 😉
Lol ever notice how protective a goose is: honk honk! They are scary little things!