Poll : What Has Narcissism Cost You?

POLL - hg


Everything has a price and narcissism is no different. What has narcissism cost you? Did you find yourself paying for anything or even defrauded as the savings accounts were emptied and you found loans in your name that you did not even take out? Perhaps it has cost you friendships as you fell out with those around you or you had to cut off an innocent parent when going no contact with a narcissistic parent? Maybe you were left suffering from anxiety and hyper vigilant, your sense of security snatched away and you no longer felt safe? Did you lose your home? Has it cost you a relationship with a child? Perhaps you feel it has taken your sense of who you are?

Whether this cost appears permanent or it was a temporary state of affairs and you have brought about recovery or restitution, do share your thoughts. Choose as many of the options as are applicable before casting your vote and as ever, please do expand on your situation in the comments.

Thank you for participating.

What has narcissism cost you?

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377 thoughts on “Poll : What Has Narcissism Cost You?

  1. Asp Emp says:

    Wow. Another poll that was good to come across. I would honestly answer that I can tick all of the boxes in this particular poll – prior to finding KTN blog. Since arriving and learning on KTN, my mindset has changed towards basically nearly every tick-box option as listed here. So much ‘damage’ was done yet now, I have more or less ‘un-damaged’ it mentally and emotionally – only made possible via KTN blog & The Ultra Channel videos (thank you, HG).

  2. Renarde says:

    What has Narcissism cost me personally? I’ve lost my life and gained my soul.

    Recursion. An extremely powerful mathematical concept. It’s when boundary conditions fold back in on themselves. A good example of an infinite recursion is when you place two mirrors on opposite walls. Or when a camera films a camera filming a camera etc… We all know it. But do we really see how important it is?

    Recursion is everywhere. I believe that recursion is in itself a central tenant to how society functions. It’s how abusers get away with it time and time again. If you look at society itself, it’s staggering. I see recursion all the time. The way I have had to fight again and again and again. Against multiple agencies, multiple times. Files go missing, fields in databases go blank. My name being missed off key distribution lists with critical and I mean CRITICAL agencies involved with child-welfare. Society looks as a whole but it doesn’t see and few are inquisitive enough to really question. Why should they? It would break apart their own realities.

    I’ve been speaking to someone today and whist he utterly got how important it was, the fact that he had his boundary condition, are the children about to be seriously harmed and therefore could he help? Yeah, I get that? But it is NOT the Courts role to determine that. It’s the Police.

    Children are being abused over and over again. The reason pretty much ALL of the abusers die without ever being brought to justice is the parable of the ‘Thee Wise Monkeys’. See no evil, speak no evil, see no evil. It’s very easy to say that those people are cowards. Oh no they are not. They just sense it. It’s going to far. Cannot look at it. If I close my eyes, it’s not there. Because at that moment it’s just seen as well, not that bad really? Not as bad as this…

    Bad is Victoria Climbie or Baby Peter. These two poor children are endlessly held up to Safeguarding Professionals as to attest the fact that there are, (coughs) multiple failings in the system. Lessons have been learned, we’ll move forward. NEXT!!!

    All SP’s are then meant to sit through this outrageous bundle of utter shite but Heh! It’s OK, cos, we now all of that checkbox ticked, don’t we?

    Recursion. We as a whole never ever really turn over the stone and see the truth. Billions of children have been failed by this lack of awareness in human nature. Billions.

    It doesn’t matter that I have been assaulted and very seriously so. Or others have. It’s fucking bullshit. In the case of Victoria Climbie and Baby Peter, they were abused by their primary caregivers and then failed by probably dozens and dozens of people around them. Clustering. Statistics. Those examples are terrible. Awful. But I hear countless times about the ones that slip through the net and are never heard. Usually from women. Countless voices screaming out into the void.

    Then the system folds back in on itself. Of course you get usual pressures of work. Human mistakes/frailties. Then you get the Ns who deliberately tamper with the system because at that point in time; it gives them fuel to do so. Magnify that on a global scale and essentially; we are all fucked.

    There are too many of them. Far far too many. Usually hiding under the cloak of middle class respectability. You only need to take one look at Baby P’s mum and her utter look of fucking gormlessness to know this lesser wretch had not a fucking clue about cognition. She was unusual in that respect and very possibly why she might have been held up for example in the first place.

    It’s no good crying and hand ringing after the fact. So, so many do. Guess it absolves their conscience?

    The reason Baby P strikes so hard to me is that when my eldest was still a baby, the scandal broke The fact that one parent could do that or even allow that to happen to another is beyond hell. I held my baby close and swore to protect her. She is crying out now and I cannot help. Is she in immediate risk of harm, they ask, all concerned like? That is just a mere question of degrees. Define ‘harm’?

    Take a look at rape. One of the most serious crimes on the statue. Yet, can we convict? Can we fucking bollocks.Oh balance of probabilities [insert your own platitude] etcs. You get that fucking ARSEWIPE Greer saying, ‘Well ya, ya know, there is rape and there is RAPE-RAPE!!’ I read about three pages of ‘The Female Eunuch’ before I vommed a little bit.

    Rape is control, power over another. Bit a bit of slap and tickle goes wrong; all good! Hi jinks gone silly! No harm done! You’ll get over it! What that very silly, and dubious ‘Cerebral’, spectacularly fails to miss is the methodology that builds into the act in the very first place, Or maybe she hasn’t missed it and is being deliberately provocative?

    When marital/partner sex goes wrong and someone calls it – it’s never about sex; it is about the degree of control one person has over another. Ohh, that’s ringing a bell!..And that dynamic WILL have been in place for months if not years. Usually because of the nature of typical MR abuse it will have been subtle and easily slides under the carpet of just well; it’s shades of grey. It isn’t? To suggest it is so, is probably one of the worst abuses perpetrated against my own sex by my own sex. Far, far worse than any male could ever do with his cock.

    All my life I have had it said to me, well yes, all rape is control but until I really understood HG’s writings I finally got the essential, why.

    Not all Ns rape but ALL rape is about control. You can’t control that vicious tongued bitch when she’s conscious? Wait until she is an ‘automaton’. Do it then when she is asleep/drugged/whatever. Oh yeah? Makes you feel like a proper God then doesn’t it? The fact that you have had to go to THAT length to exert it, speaks volumes heh? Yet so-called ‘sleep rape’ is considered one of the ‘least of all rapes’.

    HG asserts that the three aims are fuel, facade, benefits. I agree but from a empathic perspective there only ever is one; control. All of the rest are irrelevant to me because the outcome is the same. That some males need to control me. If they cannot control me; they attempt to wound me. If they cannot wound me, they smear me.And then they forget I can write. One cannot continue to divide zero by zero, you know?

    This has been a breathtaking rant and for those that have got to the bottom of it, thank you.

  3. Renarde says:

    I have to post this – I cannot not help but do it. It’s so fucking hilarious!

    A lot of you know my background and have given me utterly invaluable support and very kind thoughts indeed over these last week or so. I need to share this because it is so very funny and I think you’ll appreciate it. And hopefully contribute too!

    As you know, don;t have much money hence the need for the ‘pencil’ interview’ the other day. So today, I tried AGAIN to access either free or low cost legal advice. Right. I called the number to speak to the lawyer.

    I think we got a live one here! It took maybe a dozen words before I realised I had a member of the genus narcus narus on the other end. The reason why I know are two fold.

    1 – My girlie bits tingled
    2 – He was waaay to insightful for his own good and in such a short space of time.

    A brief 5 minute chat ensues where I outline the situation.

    I’m about to go into court, he says.

    When shall I call?


    I call at 2. He doesn’t answer. I call again ten minutes later. He doesn’t pick up. Now this is already strange. He’s a pro so he really should have been there unless in extremis. I’m a potential client after all. Already ‘ting’ unprofessional.

    Then imagine my surprise when I get this text, ‘Can’t talk, busy’. Whoahhh there stallion!!!

    The very first question I would have said is ‘Do you understand NPD behaviour and it’s effects on the survivours and how the court system is used to further abuse?’. No 1 Q in my book. As Our Dark Father outlines. At length.

    OK let’s rock! He’s looking for response time. I’m feeling particularly benevolent so I give him what he’s looking for. Reassurance. Plus; he’s intrigued me. So for about 5 or so minutes the texts go back and forth. Just to reiterate, I do not know this guy from Adam. Never interacted before today.

    He ends by saying, ‘OK, send me an email outlining your situation. You’ll need a two hour consultation.’ Hmmmmm!!! Time for the curve-ball!. I give him an unempathic response;

    ‘I shall martial my thoughts. Thank you.’

    I’m ringing at 5.

    Believe me, last few days have again been horrific but manageable (I’m OK! I really am). I then paused and reflected. If I want to go into court with either him or armed with information from him, the I would far rather it be a N than one of my kind and a male one at that.

    I shall keep you abreast of developments. This could be interesting!

  4. Renarde says:

    Hey folks. Just in stupid pencil interview waiting room. Got into lift before. Someone asked me if I’m an actress. Weird.

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      They asked you that because you’re awesome, Renarde. You got this, good luck! 😘

      1. Renarde says:

        You are an utter sweetheart! Thank you x

    2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Hey, Renarde… I saw below about your assessment but inquired here hoping you’d see this post. So what’s the latest… still in limbo waiting for the next phase?

      How are you feeling tonight, which is pretty late for you right now so I’m hoping you are occupied, but I just wanted to see how your spirits are as of now?

      1. Renarde says:

        Spirits go up and down. The tenuous communication I had even last week has now stopped. I’m not being told of anything, informed of anything. I don’t know what to do and I don;t know where to turn.

        Actually, there really now is only one way left and I’m going to take it. Abuse thrives in the dark. All those old family secrets coming out. It’s baffling isn’t it to an Empath to realise that so many people have such dark secrets. Emps don’t live that way. Living in accordance with your own moral compass naturally means you have absolutely zero indiscretions that you don;t want others to know about. How hard they try to hide them.

        Thank you for thinking about me BKK. x

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        There is something to be said about shining light on such disturbing matters. It’s amazing how it loses its power once out in the open. While I’m not certain of the secrets you are referring to, I wish you the best as you reveal & heal.

        Remember Renarde, you are not alone. So please keep your narcsite family abreast as you make those moves to rectify this… while staying true to your empathic convictions, of course. 😊

        And you know what we say here in the US… about that squeaky wheel? Frequent calls and messages might prompt them to respond and expedite your matters. But I don’t know if it will work so easily in the UK, so I don’t want to give advice that might cause them to put your file on the bottom. Whoever said patience is a virtue wasn’t dealing with our modern day government!
        Best Wishes and Hang Tough …

    3. Joanne says:

      I don’t know if you’ll see this and I’m sorry for such a late reply. I hope you’re feeling much, much better now ❤️ I apologize if you’ve posted an update, it’s just very hard to organize the chronology of the comments (or lack thereof 😒). Sending a big hug anyway 🤗

  5. Renarde says:

    Anyway so, everyone has been really kind this last few days. I thought I’d give you an update. When I was feeling suicidal he other day I was on my way to the ‘can I pick up a pencil’ assessment for fitness’s to work.

    If I didn’t have so much on my plate I would be incandescent with anger at what I’m about to do. I have my Dr, many years in GP, qualified, etcs who repeatedly pronounces me not fit for work. I have the damn cert.

    I now need to go back to this building to presumably walk in a straight line and pick up a pencil. How fucking demeaning?

    I am going to drive then take the train, walk then get to the 7th floor. If I can do that I can fucking pick up a pencil. Whats the betting there’s some low grade MR with a fucking clipboard there today? Because I am really and I mean really looking forward to how they asses my mental capacity. How can someone who hasnt had that degree of training make a clinical judgement?

    Whoever devised this system (yeah, I think we know who) needs to be taken outside and fucking shot IMHO. When I was working (years as a teacher then a scientist/engineer) I was happy that there was a benefits system in place. It was there to help the less fortunate and I was happy my taxes were going that way. Made no difference to me. Actually, I don’t want to be this way but equally, I cannot be around Ns who have power over me ever again. maybe I will tell them that.

    If I have to come back again without being seen I swear to God I’m going to the papers.

    1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      You go in there, Renarde, and you pick up that pencil like a warrior! 💪
      If a haughty low-grade MR is standing there with his assessment clipboard, well… you know where to return his pencil. ✏💩

      Best wishes to you on this journey, Renarde. We will all be cheering for you. 💓

      1. Renarde says:

        I’ve just replied to NA but yes indeedy! I did get a narc! A MR – quelle suprise! Who’d have thought it, a MRer in a low level government post!

    2. NarcAngel says:

      This all sounds so bizarre. Is there some kind of trick to this assessment? Like what do you pick the pencil up WITH. In that case they’d get a show and I’d be fucked.


      1. Renarde says:

        Ha ha! Its The Department of Work and Pensions – their fitness to work assesment. I didn’t have to pick up a pencil because it was clear to the MRN – oh yes! Got one there! That if I could drive, I could pick up a pencil.

        No, I had to go through the mental health stuff. I was prepared for this. What I was NOT prepared for was turning up to my appointment and being made to wait for an hour despite the fact I was on my own in the waiting room for most of that time. I almost left.

        They kept saying soon, soon. It really is utter bollocks, very demeaning, time wasting and I’m guessing that I will be pronounced fit for work despite the fact the last time I went I was feeling suicidal and they know that.

        At one point I did precisely what I shouldn’t have done and had a ER in front of the narc. So yeah, he got well fueled. Wonder if he’ll be nice to his partner tonight or not? You know, he grabbed my file then kept me waiting another 15 minutes.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          I was thinking tonight -by the time you all finish “You” I will be watching the second season, and there’s nothing good on Netflix- that thing Renarde said once about empaths having big eyes, and narcs reading just through us. I happen to have big, deep eyes, so I just imagined for a moment if that is true for all of us and we ever met in person. It would look like an anime convention. That made me giggle. Love you all, good night! 😘

          1. HG Tudor says:

            The Kominscky Method and Elementary.

          2. MB says:

            I loved TKM, HG. So I shall take your advice on Elementary. You have good taste. As do I apparently.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you, HG, I’ll check them out. But not tonight 😎

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I see what you did there.

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I knew you would.

      2. StrongerWendy says:


  6. Peaceful 283 says:

    Wow! It’s surprising to see this soap opera. Interesting to see the indulgence.
    – Peaceful

  7. Christopher Jackson says:

    I’m glad you are in a better place now renarde… I’m glad it worked out

  8. Renarde says:

    Serious thought experiment. HG asks, what has the Ns cost us?

    Now lets us Emps have a thought experiment of our own. Suppose if the Gods gave us the power to destroy NPD. Once and for always. What if? Suppose, just suppose all we had to to do was put two wires together? Wipe them out. Forever. All those people that died or who were maimed. All the innocent people who had suffered. Would we do it? Could we do it? Why would we do it?

    I know what I would do but what do you know? Would we kill them off or let them live? I would really like to see/read peoples’ reactions.

    What would WE do?

    1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Ooooh I love this Renarde!
      However, it requires some thought and consideration, especially under the influence of certain mind relaxing sunbstances.

      I’ll get back to you shortly xo

      1. Renarde says:

        Good oh! Tappi!

    2. Attention seeker says:

      We’re all gonna die anyway Renarde and it’s not as if anyone ever asked to be put into this world.
      Malignant narcs have suffered in childhood.
      Should we kill their parents? Or are they victims as well?
      There is no such thing as righteousness on this planet.
      It’s like they say: First you are born, then you go: WTF??? Then you die.

      1. Renarde says:

        Urm bit confused? It’s a thought experiment. What if you could? How would the world change? For the better, the worse or no different?

      2. Attention seeker says:

        Well Renarde, it was a thought experiment.. and those were my thoughts 😏😘

    3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Well, Renarde, with the mood I’m in this morning…
      I’d black widow ’em.
      Yep. I think Id go for the ole have a good time, then take him out. No – I have long been worried that I’m turning into a narcissist myself, so while that sounds appealing, I’d just put my two wires together to eliminate the disorder – the NPD.

      I actually think many of them would be pretty fantastic without the disorder. Besides, they say black widows don’t ALWAYS eat the male. So if they can stop themselves, I can too. ☺

      But Renarde, your point is really more on how staggering their abuse is. I would love nothing more than to eliminate that horror from this world we share. ❤🌎 I hate that I can’t accomplish that feat, but I can at least change me. The healing from these fuckers truly start with that. Actually, we are the only place it starts. Once the anger lifts, I promise it gets better.

      But I understand how you meant that question, in theory. And I understand the fury narcissists spark. “Hell hath no fury…. ” So True!
      I had some pretty dark thoughts about what I’d like to do to my narcissist. I won’t mention them here in case he comes up missing or something. Although I’m certain I’m not the only one he’s scorned. (Still, no need for me to give the detectives an open invitation to knock on my door.) However, I do find it to be a comforting fantasy at times….

      1. Renarde says:

        I get you on the dark thoughts lovely, I have them to. I have a friend who desrbies to me what his narc ex does and frankly, I don;t know how he stands it. He doesn’t help himself and I’ve told him that. I’ve explained over and over again about ER’s and fuel. He’s gone NC now. About time, I’d say. But he does tell me how he feels.

  9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    HG, thank you for all that you do… for your invaluable service.
    May life continue to bless you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you BKK.

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

    2. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      As HG and K often say….
      Fuckin A BKK! Xo

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Tappi T … 😄❤

      2. K says:

        Ha ha ha….thanks for the laugh Tappi Tikarrass!

    3. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Absolute pleasure K

      You’re another Vital commenter on this blog! Xo

      1. K says:

        Thank you Tappi Tikarrass!!!

  10. veronicajones1969 says:

    Money, friends ,jobs ,I could go on every time I get engaged with a narcissist the just about bleed me dry it’s almost cost me my life but I have always found my self again I am very wary now the biggest thing is I have lost my trust in people it takes a lot to break down my barriers

  11. Renarde says:

    OK. So, yeah narcissism has cost me a lot. Some of the states I’ve experienced will be temperament, others temporary. It’s time for the bigger picture.

    All of this, the blog, the books, is about weaponisation. But there are scales to the ultimate goal. I hasten to add that I’m not there yet. But I’m close.

    Around about November something happened. I’m still not quite sure what it was, why the change happened when it did. All I know is that something shifted. I began to journal, really write. It’s about what I’m going through but it’s also a time capsule, a message from me now to the children, for them to read in the future. I live in quite a strange area and it’s probably in response to that and having a lot of time on my hands that has really made me think. You see, I think that the ability for a empath to be weaponised at all is awesome. Some of us, maybe all, or maybe just a few will finally walk the through the bubble, the facade of society and actually move with the Greaters themselves.

    This is an extraordinarily painful thing to do. There are some things that are seen that can never been unseen. The knowledge of what society is; it’s a shocker. Your thinking changes too. In ways that you cannot even begin to fathom. It’s like something get’s ripped out of your mind… the fog maybe, it goes.

    Someone asked me if I had spoken to HG. Yes, I have. About the kids and weaponisation. It didn’t take long during the consultation for me to understand the truth; there is nothing about the situation with the kids that he can tell me that I don’t already know. That I hadn’t thought of dozens of times before. What he did in effect was gently tell me; you’re running your engines on full speed. Where is it going? He didn’t say that directly, but that was the gist of it.

    I thought of something another friend said; there is a third way. There is always a third way. I’ve never really held much value in myself therefore it is always a shock when people get overexcited by me. My biggest value to the ex is fuel. He’s desperately trying to control the narrative by engineering a situation where the kids can only speak to me via his mobile phone. Trouble is, he rarely picks up when I call. This is similar to the Google Calendar stunt he tried to pull. I can read it but I cannot edit it. Therefore I’m forced to go cap in hand to him to ask for time with my children.

    I am fully entitled to have a relationship with my kids that does not involve him. For that to happen, total independence, other things need to be in place. Another thing that HG reminded me of is when two Ns collide. Each will attempt to control the other. Eventually, it will become an exercise in futility and they will part. I need to keep that in mind.

    So, I’m going to put those measures in place and then, OMG, the NC is going to be fucking awesome!

    As to the future. Consequences of weaponisation has put me in a position that we all can recognise and access but actually remains really rare in society as a whole. I come across this all the time when I deal with agencies. So what can I do? I can write, I can educate, I can help others in similar situations.

    I’m going to set up a charity – Survivors Of Narcissistic Abuse. SONA. If anyone would like to help in any way, I would be eternally grateful.

    Thank you all, once again. xxx

    1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Renarde, ❤
      You ARE a survivor. You’ll make an excellent chairwoman of SONA. I’ll help in any way I can.
      Many blessings to you.

      1. Renarde says:

        Oh bless you BKK. And thank you for your help x

    2. Presque Vu says:

      Renarde, listen, there is no man on this earth who could dim your light!! Hold on to that.

      Children are clever, they know more than they let on. Trust me, my boys are 23 and 18 and could always sense things were off. I’m sure, in time, your children will want both sides no matter what your ex tells them. Your children – if anything like you – will be strong and intelligent – and of course truth seeking too.

      I am so sorry you felt suicidal, in 2014 I attempted it, my children were so angry with me. I promised them I would never hurt them like that again. My boys were heartbroken and it crushed me to hurt them in this way. Your children, will always be your children regardless of where they live and will one day want the truth. They will always love you.

      I’m glad you got the straight talking from HG, that support is priceless.
      The third way sounds interesting and a goal for you to aim for whilst you recover and plan your next steps, gather your strength and then justice will be yours in abundance!

      With regards to your charity SONA, great idea. If I can help in anyway – my work experience may be helpful for you. But as contact is purely blog based – I’m not sure how help can be achieved?

      Hold on to that inner bad ass, she will get you through all of this, you’ll be stronger, wiser and fulfilled in helping others with your first hand experience. Chin up pretty lady xxx

      1. Renarde says:

        PV – I am so sorry you ecxpereinced that but hey? We’re still here!

        If you can help then I’d love that. Not sure yet how to facilitate contact re:SONA. I came up with it a while ago but like everything else, it had to take a back seat.

        I wouldn’t mind considering the importance of what I was doing with my kids but sadly, despite everything, I made little to no import on getting custody back. I could not make headway for the life of me. I tried so hard. Fuck it.

        Thank you very much for your support x

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Wise words, Presque Vu…
        So glad you made it through.

      3. Presque Vu says:

        Nice to see you feeling better Renarde 🙂

        Trust me, you have not lost them. Children are so clever, in the meantime be the best version of you and work your third way plan. Go get those targets!

        Think about this as well…. the more he smears you, the more questions your children will have. You are writing a journal – a blog – document the lot in that so one day you can ask your children to read the other side.

        Words are powerful.

        Keep being you x

  12. Renarde says:

    Just a very quick message to say – I’m staggered. I’m in tears. You are all so very kind.

    I’m OK, I’m safe and and relatively intact. I’m going to respond to every person directly.

    Thankyou so very much xxx

    1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Take your time, Renarde. No rush to worry about us. We are all just comforted in knowing you’re well. ❤

  13. Renarde says:

    I responded to this poll a few days ago but did not comment. I couldn’t. I was feeling suicidal and very ironically in the waiting room of a government department that was going to asses my capability to work.

    I took the train. I kept on looking at the rails. Wondering if part of me was going to force the other part to throw myself on them. I got to the interview only to find there was a 2 hour wait with no guarantee of being seen.I left. I couldn’t cope with it.

    I never want to go through that again. I thought I was over the worst but no. My ex-H, a MRN, broke me. He has poisoned my children’s’ minds’ against me. Now I am in the utterly insidious position of shielding my own abuser from my children.

    My ex husband raped me. He threatened to rape me. He throttled me against a wall and punched me in the face. That’s the least of it. I would happily be raped millions of times if it were not for the psychological abuse.That he loved me, he cared for me. That he wanted what was best for me.That he loved our children. All lies.

    How on earth can one parent break it to their children about abuses on this scale? The news will devastate them.No question. So I am shielding my abuser. I have been for years. His abuses were a very large contributing factor in my suicide attempt last year.

    I lost my children. I agreed to temporary custody. Since then it has essentially been death by a thousand cuts. He’s used the situation against me. I worked so fucking hard to get that custody back. All the agencies, every single fucking day I tried. Every day. Ringing and ringing, documenting, logging, over and over and over again. The sheer level of incompetency I’ve seen. Letters that haven’t been sent, police lying to my face, addresses being changed, people in positions of power who don’t also flag safeguarding concerns. But it’s over. Last night it’s over. I’ve lost their minds.

    No human should ever, EVER be placed in the position of protecting their abuser. That’s what I’ve done, to prevent further harm. Last night, I really really wanted to kill myself. I didn’t for one reason and one reason only. If I were to do that on the back of seeing them they would never ever be able to live with it. Last night was the first night in many years where I was absolutely 100% sure that I would survive.

    When HG talks about the battle post discard there is also another battle. When the N poisons the minds of others; the smear. Both of my children can’t take it anymore. My ex offers stability, the lure of a new home, a bigger home, a fresh start. More money. Fun things to do. What can I offer apart from love?

    I had so little, last year, with them. So little. I tried. Oh my God I tried. Even that little was eventually taken away from us. On utterly spurious grounds. Being with me causes them stress and anxiety. So what do I do? I dont want my children to suffer and if them being with me creates anxiety then removing it is the right thing to do? Surely? But then what happens? I then have no influence plus they are now living with their abuser.

    I lived this life, I know how it will go with every fibre of my being. It’s already begun.

    Now it’s over. They want to spend time with me but my days of being of influence are over. My heart is utterly broken.

    I had a emergency Drs appointment today. I cancelled it What’s the point. There is no drug he can prescribe that can stop the pain. This is terminal.

    The only thing on HG’s poll list that I haven’t lost to NPD abuse is my mind. Bizarrely, that’s the one thing I have prayed would be taken.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      I don’t know what to say. What you have written has flooded me with many questions about your situation (because of the instant and driving need to provide a solution)- none of which really matter right now. What matters is only how you feel and how will you move forward. You are very raw and it was brave of you to share. I will only say that I am deeply upset for you and your situation. How can I help?

      1. Renarde says:

        Bless you. I really mean that.

        The sad fact is, no-one can help. I’ve pretty much at the end of what I can do. I need to find a new way. The third way.

        Thankyou for being here and witnessing my pain x

    2. MB says:

      Renarde, I read what you are going through. I hear you and you are very brave to reach out. I hope you will keep pushing to be seen by a mental health professional. Please don’t give your abuser the ultimate control over you by ending your own life. Have you reached out to HG? I don’t know how the health system is there, but you may be able to get an appointment with him before you can the doctor. He can help you with your emotional thinking which is causing this horrendous pain. You don’t really want to die. You just want the pain to stop. Hang in there, girl. Please don’t give up!

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Reaching out to HG is an excellent suggestion MB. I hope if that’s what Renarde wants, a consult isn’t cost prohibitive. Not that you’re consults are overpriced HG, just that we don’t all have lots of disposable income.

      2. Renarde says:

        That’s it. I want the pain to stop. I’m going to stop the pain and I think I know how. It’s the third way. OMG it’s scary though but also very exciting.

        I will see the Dr and yes I have contacted HG and he was a big help.

        Thank you x

        1. MB says:

          Renarde, I’m glad to see you are in a better place. It’s wonderful that HG was available to help. His calm and logical demeanor feel like shelter from the storm. Do see the doctor and get on something to help you over the hump. I hope your third way involves low contact. Stay strong! I’m pulling for you. Be the star in your own life. You’ve got this girl!

          1. Renarde says:

            Hey MB.

            I’m going to ring up and see a Dr.

            HG was a great help because he gave me the ‘hard stop’. That was really important for me to hear it. He did it in a way that was extraordinarily thoughtful too. I always appreciate straight talking and I heard it. Our discussion on weaponisation was equally fascinating.

            Thank you again x

          2. MB says:

            Renarde, Wouldn’t HG make the best big brother ever?!?

            Seriously though HG. I’m not sure how it came about for you to help Renarde. I have questions around it, but will just be content and grateful that it happened and the outcome was positive. God Bless you, Sir.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Not for me to state, it is confidential.

          4. MB says:

            I know HG. That’s why I didn’t ask. Plus it’s none of my business. God bless you for all that you do!

          5. Renarde says:

            Oh really simple MB, standard consult. That’s all. Well I say standard because it wasn’t. It cannot be when you are discussing really big ideas and concepts. Not just personal circumstances.

            As to whether HG would make a really good big brother? Yes he would. My own brother is younger than I am. I have no elder siblings. I don’t actually perceive him as Big Bro though. He is my father. In point of fact, he’s all our fathers.

            HG told me what I needed to hear rather than what I wanted to hear. That’s incredibly important because how I can I make decisions based on half-truths? Unlike my own biological father, he did it in a way which was authentic, calm and reassuring. PN would NOT have done this. He would have twisted the narrative for his own little fuel grabbing agenda.

            That doesn’t mean to say that PN is incapable of giving good advice. He just does it on his own terms and if that means hurting me, he will do it. In spades.

            Yes, I do think we all need to thank HG. For his words and this blog. We’re all little monsters together. Or is it The New Prometheans? Ether way; I’m not a ‘Tudorette’ guys. 🙂 But you lot crack me up so bad 🙂 x

          6. MB says:

            Renarde, I didn’t mean for you to tell me about it. I wasn’t trying to be nosy! I just thought it was nice of him to get you in so quickly is all. HG is a good egg.

          7. Renarde says:

            MB, I’m always happy for HG to have immediate access to all areas. It’s those legs x (But not the weird hand)

          8. NarcAngel says:

            Harsh! Lol. I thought the hand was lovely and well manicured. I would welcome that caress over being snagged by a raggy nail on the paw of a less fastidious fucker.

        2. Lou says:

          Hi Renarde. I am catching up with the comments here and just read yours. I am glad to learn you are safe and feeling better. Keep writing and venting here.

          1. Renarde says:

            Thank you Lou.

    3. flutterbymorpho says:

      sending you love from my heart to yours.
      I wish I could help you, really i do. Wish I had something useful to say. That’s got me in tears reading your story.. I’m so sorry you are going through this. The pain is unbearable. I feel for you. Keep going lovely one don’t give in, you never know what is around the corner. I’m hoping for a good outcome for you. Xxx

      1. Renarde says:

        Thank you flutter. I really appreciate that. I think the worst is now over x

    4. StrongerWendy says:

      Don’t give up Renarde. You will prevail.

      1. Renarde says:

        Thank you Wendy x

        1. StrongerWendy says:

          Ha ha! Thanks for the welcome. 🙂 Kind of ironic

          1. Renarde says:

            Hey SW – tad embarrassed here. [cringes]

            Welcome to the board!

          2. StrongerWendy says:

            No criniging necessary! It’s just that I’ve been around for a few years now.

    5. SMH says:

      Renarde, The system is so fucked. I am glad you pulled yourself back from the edge. Is there an organization that you can contact? Perhaps Women’s Aid or Refuge? Samaritans? I am sure there are people who can support you both in your personal struggles and in your struggles with institutions. They all have 24 hr hotlines. Please call.

      1. Renarde says:

        The fucked system: you are so very right. It’s a relief to say that I have contacted the Samaritans this year, many times. I spoke to them last week in fact. She was a great comfort. We talked about NPD (obviously they are all trained in how to spot them) and she put the ACTUAL figure that contacted their helpline as 80%. 80% of callers have NPD. Fuckers are never going to actually do the deed so all of that is wasted time and money.

        Thank you x

        1. SMH says:

          Hi Renarde, I’ve been slammed with work the past few days and unable to return to the blog but I am catching up and yours is the first story I looked for. I am glad you are feeling so much better and that the Samaritans know what you are dealing with. That is weird to me that 80% of callers have NPD. Are they just screwing around with the volunteers’ time or are they really suicidal? You don’t have to answer as I see you have many people to respond to here. I am just curious is all. The main thing is that you are getting help.

          1. Renarde says:

            It’s very kind of you SMH to respond. I’ve had a weird few days. Things are coming to light about just how dark my ex-s family were. Dots have been joined and today has not been great.

            It’s clear to me that, like HG, my own exs childhood was horrific. HG talks, rightly so, from his perspective as a male. How he has in the past deployed manips and power plays. This is good as it’s valuable for us.

            However, a lot of people also have to deal with the female Ns. Today, it’s how fucking cunning, sly and manipulative female Ns and especially the middles are.

            The sex manipulation for example. I’m pretty out there, sex wise but I have a very clear line on my boundaries. I have never, ever in my life felt compelled to delibately seduce a man just so he can do my bidding. Both my exs mother and of course my own mother did this.

            Exs mum – targetted married men (blackmail-able). When she was done with them, I perceive she ‘allowed’ herself to be caught in the act. I knew about the first occasion when she was ‘caught’ with a neighbour by her own 13 year old daughter. What I did not know is that she was also caught with another married man at their mutual place of work. of course we all know why this should be.

            I know how dark and devious male Ns minds can be. Actually; that’s relatively straightforward. When the burden of child-rearing and childcare still largely rests with women, it becomes a stunningly different matter.

            That woman, allowing herself to be observed by her own daughter is utterly unforgivable. The fact that daughter carried that secret for decades is also – just beyond words.

            Turn to dear old MN. Yes, she really liked to do perhaps the oldest trick in the book; open the door to a male that you want to seduce and deliberately wear the skimpiest item of clothing available. Even I, as sex and kink positive as I am, would never do this in a million years. It’s so fucking dangerous.

            But yet both of these women were doing it.
            Of course my own mother did it whilst I was in the house as a baby and toddler. What have I seen that I don’t remember?
            It’s only fairly recently that I’ve understood how quickly and easily my own mother lies. When you put them under even the slightest modicum of pressure, they react in tears and withdraw in a AST to prevent further interrogation.

            I know my own value. Thanks to HG. My own internal value I mean. It’s frightening. The very people we look to for care and nature are actively undermining us, for years, for decades.
            Oh the fake tears, the ‘woe is me’? What about the lies you have both spun to keep your very silly and let’s face it, feeble fuel matrix intact.

            I am ashamed to be female today. I really am.

            Thank you SMH for thinking about me x

          2. SMH says:

            Renarde, it’s terrible not to protect your children whether you are male or female. I was just reading today an account of domestic abuse against a male. The female seemed like a narc – isolating him, emotionally abusing him and then physically abusing him. She was just given a jail sentence. They have young children too. Imagine what those children saw.

          3. Renarde says:

            I read that too. It’s indescribable what that poor man went through. Thank God he was found in time. You would never guess to look her , would you? As HG says, abusers really are ‘the people in the street.’ I think in the case you are referring to, the kids were very young indeed. Still – they should never have been placed in that position.

            I’ve been writing a lot today and especially about how deadly the females can be. How they are very cunning, sly and devious. Far more so than males. A narc mother is truly one of the worst burdens any child can face.

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Wow, Renarde… staggering statistics on the NPD related calls received by the Samaritans. I don’t know what to say other than this “epidemic” of wounded souls breaks my heart.

    6. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Renarde, I just read your post. Please, let us know what we can do from here. If we were allowed to get in touch outside the blog I would meet with you and at least try to keep you company, I feel so sorry you are suffering so much, I am glad though you had the strength to write here instead of making an irreparable decision. Use us to vent and mitigate your pain, please. ❤️

      1. Renarde says:

        I would very much like to meet. In fact, I think if we can in the UK, we should. I’m happy to organise and facilitate something in the UK. Maybe HG can create a post where we can all discuss this?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not going to happen, it is against the rules and for very good reasons. Certain individuals I know have made contact with one another outside of this place (having ‘met’ through this place) and I warned against doing so. Needless to say, it did not go well – as I warned. Indeed, one individual has had three ‘difficult’ outcomes through going against this very sensible practice. I am not suggesting that you and SP are problematic but the rule is in place for very solid reasons and its efficacy has been borne out repeatedly.

          1. Renarde says:

            OK I understand. Thank you for outlining this rule and yeah, I can see the dangers. I think there is a great need for our own kind to meet each other but we must always be cautious.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed. I see more than you invariably do because of my objectivity, expertise and also I have the advantage of often seeing behaviours exhibited in emails to me which you readers do not. It is for your protection.

          3. Renarde says:

            Of course. I remember you saying how many messages you receive each day. A staggering amount.

            Thank you for protecting us.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Despite most people’s very good intentions, I understand why that rule of not contacting each other is in place here. I would not want to be responsible for any bad experience to anyone resulting from my blog if I were you either. I find it most sensible and thank you for it.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed and thank you NA.

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Renarde, I don’t live in the UK but travel there often, and the idea of the organization is EXCELLENT. In fact, I think we should all create the organization and have an annual meeting in a different place each year. That way we could all meet, travel, have fun, and all for a good cause. And I am saying this in all seriousness, it’s totalky feasible. Renarde, you sound much better today and that makes me happy for you, please don’t lose hope.

          1. Renarde says:

            Ahh SP. I think we could do this but HG has already highlighted today why we shouldn’t do this. I don’t perceive he said what he said to keep me personally from harm. Far from it. He’s done it to ensure that the ones who are really vulnerable don’t get hurt. I get that.

            There are a lot and I mean a lot of vulnerable people out there. I am not one of them and have not been for some time. I need to remember that.

            Yes today I am in a much happier place because, well, I just know. It’s a very privileged position to be in. and one that I feel truly grateful for.

            Thank you SP. I have been given hope and I will take it. I have to. You are very kind. x

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        HG, I am sorry I said that, I didn’t see your later comments. I definitely didn’t meet anyone here or talked to anyone at a personal level outside the blog. I thought Renarde’s idea of raising an organization to help victims is a very good one though, but it would be hard to organize anything without contacting each other personally. But I will never mention that again, so my apologies. Damn I was already planning my outfit for the Bourbon trip…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You have no need to apologise SP, you have not done anything wrong. It was a founding principle of this place that allowing contact between people would be strictly prohibited because :-

          1. This is a constructive environment and must remain that way;
          2. There cannot be any available mechanism from this blog where if there is a disagreement here that someone can look to ‘attack’ another person elsewhere;
          3. Narcissists do occasionally appear here. They would follow-up their machinations away from the blog having ‘seduced’ here if they were able to;
          4. I do not want the distraction of potential lawsuits against me if someone were to suffer some form of misfortune from a predator (either one in their personal life who has tracked them down here or a new one who has hunted here and sought that person out in ‘real life’ ) and then look to make me liable for having insufficient safeguards in place;
          5. There are certain people here (albeit few in number) who operate a façade on the blog and behave differently elsewhere. This is where certain individuals have found out to their cost/discomfort where they have foolishly sought to extend what they thought was a friendship here ‘off blog’ and found out that there was an altogether different type of behaviour away from my watch and moderation;
          6. It is extremely rare for a narcissist in someone’s personal life turn up here (it has only happened once) however preventing contact detail exchange is part of tackling that risk also;
          7. It would be easy enough for a predator to observe the interaction between two genuine individuals here, let us say A and B. The predator then locates A on another social media platform and the predator pretends to be B (adopting their user name from here, avatar picture and information gleaned) . B approaches A on the other platform, A thinks this is B from the blog and engages and provides more personal information and well, you can see where that could go. That predator could be an existing one who is after A from a previous engagement or it could be an entirely new predator.

          The advantage you all have is that you have the best of the best operating this place and its success and safety for you all reflects on me, thus it is a fundamental aspect of the operation of this place that the rule against external contact is preserved here and I emphasise that really should not seek someone out regardless of this blog (as some people have done) as the risk involved is not worth taking. You can maintain an excellent friendship here, that is why I allow some off topic banter between people (so long as it is not too much about cooking!) so you can indulge that element of your interactions.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Thank you for putting all the terrible case scenarios on the table, HG. I don’t want anyone to think I’m a gullible idiot full of “Kumbaya” plans to get together in happiness and harmony, my desires to meet are moved partly by curiosity, desire for social interaction, and a need to try yo help if one of us is feeling defeated. Sometimes it’s frustrating because I travel a lot and on occasions, when someone says anything about their town/surroundings, I have to bite my tongue and not scream: we could have a drink in 20! I don’t know how you can keep anonymity so well, HG. Thank you for keeping the balance of logic among so much emotion here.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I am naturally good at it and have been trained to achieve it. You are welcome.

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        My apologies, too, HG.
        Like Sweetest Perfection, you know that my intentions were also pure. (Well, I hope you know? You do know – you have those special little instincts. 😊)

        (So thank you, HG, for recognizing that most of us here wouldn’t hurt a flea.) But we do understand the potential for a select few to abuse through this medium. It would be a perfect place to do so.

        Dammit – I was really looking forward to seeing what SP was gonna wear.
        I’m still holding out on hope that you’re gonna have that Narcsite Reunion, HG.
        (Maybe in 10 … 20 years? 😩)

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          BKK, you would have loved my outfit. In real life, I’m a top model. Ahhh, the joys of anonymity are manifold…

          1. NarcAngel says:

            I’m a model too. Of sorts……ok, I’m always the “before” in the make-over.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA, the before is better in many cases: before too much Botox; before plucking your eyebrows; before meeting a narc… I consider you my top (role) model!

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        And I must add… I might not always like your rules, but Big Daddy, I do like your style.

        (Thanks for looking out for us, HG, no matter the intentions behind it.)

        But (s-o-m-e-d-a-y) do you think we could arrange a group get-together, in secret, for those who are willing to sign a waiver… and if you come along too, we could eventually take that Kentucky Bourbon Trail trip?

      5. Mercy says:


        I’m curious, forgive me if its too private. Do you have a plan in place in case something tragic happens to you? A plan so that your legacy here is carried on?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Tragedy? HG? Shurely shome mishtake!

          I have contingencies, yes.

        2. NarcAngel says:

          I offered early on in my participation here on the blog that if he became unable to physically continue on for some reason, that he might need someone to affix a pencil to his forehead (fivehead according to him) to allow him to continue bonking away on his keyboard. He was having no part of that then either lol. If I recall correctly, I was called a cheeky rascal.

      6. Mercy says:

        HG, haha what was I thinking? Of course that would never happen.

      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        You have my curiosity stirred Sweetest Perfection. And whether you are teasing or serious about your top modeling position, I have no doubt that you are lovely 💖… AND have good taste in fashion. ☺

        I’m just an old woman, or at least well on my way. But after seeing some of of the snippets of HG’s followers, there is no doubt that there are many attractive empaths here… lovely in many ways. (I still can’t get Kel’s hand off my mind!)

        What I’m trying to get at is… HG, I realize that as the general of this army-of-one, you set your own rules. But I got the impression once that The Good Doctors asked you to consider some concerns before you set out to provide this service. Soooo, is part of the rules also to protect you (your progress) in regards to us? I mean… I can only imagine that for a narcissist with this many empaths at his fingertips, there would be a certain level of temptation.

        I see you as always professional with an ability to still have a little fun with your followers. [Your balance there works well for me personally, as IRL, I have to provide my services to clients who work in a varying degrees of positions. Without a mix of professionalism and relatability, I wouldn’t be able to connect with both the CFO and the janitor… at least not in the ways that I need be successful within my job.]

        I can imagine that The Good Doctors had concern that this dynamic might be a concern. You obviously, practice great self-control, but were the doctors worried that this interaction would be like a methhead head trying to work in a crack house? (Please know that I mean no disrespect in my poor analogy. I am struggling with how to ask my question?)

    7. Mercy says:

      Renarde, I think every single savior empath that read your post just stood up and said “show me where this mother fucker is!”. I’m ready to go to battle for you. I will not say that I understand your pain. I cannot imagine what you are going through right now. All I can say is that I want to help. I don’t know about your situation but I know about kids. A big house, things that can be bought doesn’t replace your love. Anxiety doesn’t hold a candle to abuse. Never underestimate the very powerful emotion of a mother’s love. When you say that you shield them from abuse I assume you mean that you don’t tell them of your abuse. I don’t see this as shielding them, I see it as having trust in your children to see their father for who he is. To make their own decision without your influence. Children are smarter than we give them credit for. They see what we try to hide from them. As a mother you are conflicted. Wanting to protect them when your choices are so limited. It’s just another thread of guilt that we add to our noose. Our children need us to remove those burdens of guilt. They need you to say “yep our situation sucks bad but we’re going to get through this together”. They are stronger than you know Renarde. They will grow up and say “mom I knew”. Never give up on them, never give up on yourself. Come here when you need to be reminded of how valuable you are. We haven’t had alot of conversation with each other but I’ll talk to you until you tell me to shut up. There are so many of us here that can remind you of your worth when your ET has made you forget.

      Think about what NA said. How will you move forward? That’s what is important right now.

      If that doesn’t work I’m sure we can pull a special operations team together to take this guy out!!

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Dear Mercy
        What grace and wisdom…. and TRUTH your response contains.

        1. Mercy says:

          Thank you Tippi, you are very kind

      2. Renarde says:

        I’m both smiling and crying at your post. I’m so moved.

        Yes, I shield them from what their father has done to me. All they know is that ‘it just didn’t work out’. Everything is documented with external agencies and I have written about it privately. What is really hurting at the moment is when finally the kids understand and they will know eventually, how they will feel. It will devastate them. Not only how the original suicide attempt came about in the first place but what I’ve been through since and of course what he did in the past. I’m going to have to cross that bridge when I come to it.

        The narrative he’s running atm is that essentially, ‘if Mummy keeps this up (court case), you may be taken into care’. A shocking, SHOCKING thing to say to the children. It’s possible but actually so incredibly unlikely. Of course the kids don’t know that even though I have reassured them. My daughter got incredibly distressed at this point.

        As I’ve said, he’s a MR – he’s thinking and acting in the moment for fuel without a single thought/concern for the future other than a vague notion that he will somehow ‘manage it out’. He’s s misguided fool if he thinks he can. Of course, he will never see it.

        He’s with another N, a lesser. One that is operating really on the edge. Unfortunately, she’s become obsessed by me. She follows me around the internet. Sometimes she comments. I can always tell it’s her. Her tone is unmistakable. Tit. In the old days, she used to say it was ‘she just loved my writing’. Fuck off.

        Actually, I may write about her, that would be fun!

        Thank you for your kindness x

        1. Mercy says:

          Renarde, If your smiling you haven’t lost hope. You’ll find your way through this. Unload some of that guilt. You don’t need that weighing you down through this difficult time.

          Reach out anytime

          1. Renarde says:

            Thank you Mercy, I will x

      3. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Mercy, you can call on me for a little ass-kicking anytime, but I’ll have to borrow HG/MB’s batmobile. My crusader-ride runs on only four-cylinders, but I’ll do my best to get there as fast as I can!

        Your post about children is full of wisdom.

        1. Mercy says:

          BKK, haha I knew you were the ass kicking kind of girl!

      4. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Just sayin it like it is dear Mercy. I always enjoy your posts. And I like your profile shot. Sexy silver shoes at the end of sexy looking legs….
        No, I’m not coming on to you

        I don’t mean for the word truth to read so startlingly but using upper case is my way of adding italic font to the word. I noticed tonight someone using *-* with a word where the dash is….. is that how one makes a word italic here?
        Thanks in advance
        Whoever replies

        1. Mercy says:

          Tappi, that’s the most action I’ve had in months!! You can hit on me anytime 😀.

          I’m not sure about italic font on your phone. I’ve never tried. On your keyboard I think it’s CTRL I

      5. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Haha Mercy, me too honey
        Though I’m quite happy to look after myself….
        For now

    8. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Renarde, my heart hurts for you. No one should have to experience narcissistic abuse in the way you’ve endured. Undoubtedly, with all that you’ve been through, feeling this despair is understandable. I would like to ask you more about the depth of your thoughts in harming yourself… if you are still in the mindset you described above?

      Our National Suicide Prevention Lifeline in the US is..
      (answered 24 hours a day)

      I am not certain if I retrieved this information correctly, but I found this for the UK:

      Hotline: +44 (0) 8457 90 90 90 (UK – local rate)
      Hotline: +44 (0) 8457 90 91 92 (UK minicom)
      Hotline: 1850 60 90 90 (ROI – local rate)
      Hotline: 1850 60 90 91 (ROI minicom)

      If you are in immediate danger, please call now.

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        116 123 (UK & Ireland)

        Do any of these European numbers make sense to anybody? Renarde, if I’m wrong on these numbers, please call the US lifeline, they will direct you.

      2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Renarde, I called the US lifeline and they gave me the number that I had already listed: 44-0-8457-90-90-90

      3. Renarde says:

        Thank you so much for taking the time to write your post. I’m OK. For the first time, I’ve moved past that. I cannot have that meeting a day or so ago conflating in their minds with me doing the unforgivable.

        Thank you x

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I am relieved to see your face on here, Renarde, and to feel the spunk in your words. When our kids are involved, it’s the hardest.
        But children are resilient little creatures. Whether they are small or fully-grown adults, once they get a little wisdom stored, they start to see things differently. Their tainted minds grow resistant to the poison; their eyes open.
        May you and your children soon find peace from this abuse.

    9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      I want you to know, Renarde, that you are not alone. Please know that there are many people left in this world who care… who cares about you.

      K will be able to help me here, but when you are feeling up to it, read the comments in HG’s article Goodbye or Au Revoir? (November 2018.) You are not alone. Sometimes the dark cloud feels as if it won’t lift, so it takes us over, but that dark cloud is unable to stay over you for ever. Simple science. And I know your scientific brain knows it to be true.

      Renarde, you are an intelligent, vibrant, lovely human being, one who does not deserve what you described above. I know this because no one deserves such treatment. Please call your doctor back and reschedule. You are correct; he will not be able to prescribe anything that will take this pain away, but he will be able to give you something to help.

      I know that words of encouragement won’t feel very helpful right now, but this feeling of hopelessness can and will lift. You hang in there with me, and we… all of us here, will help you get through this the best that we can.
      You hear me, Renarde?

      1. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        There are people who care* about you.
        Please overlook that extra “s” above.

      2. Renarde says:

        I do here you BKK and I will see the Dr. But a different one. I’ve had my suspicions about the one I usually see for a while now.

        I did feel a strong sense of hopelessness. It’s all the agencies you see. They may think they are trained to spot NPD but largely; they haven’t a clue.

        Thank you x

      3. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Dear BKK
        Beautiful words of wisdom and grace….. and deeds by providing phone numbers for services

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        I hear you, Renarde….It is sad that the “system” (while great in theory) is taxed with such a strain that it is unable to effectively meet the needs of the very people it attempts to serve. Due to high demands, no matter which country, social-service/health-care agencies are simply understaffed.
        I wish you the best in finding a quality healthcare professional. You are sooo right in that many of them don’t understand NPD. Really, no one does unless they’ve dealt with it up-close-and-personal.

        That’s what makes being here so special place. We’ve all been touched, scarred for life… but we ARE stronger for it.
        Most everyone here has been abused in some way, HG included.

        But we are all survivors.
        I vowed to not let a single disordered person ever agaim beat me to the ground. He may wound me, but he won’t destroy me. Join me in taking that pledge, Renarde, and I’ll be your co-chair at SONA. (But don’t expect me to keep typo-free notes. You know I suck at that.)

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Tappi Tikarrass, thank you for your kind words. ❤

      6. K says:

        Great idea, that thread was very good.

        Renarde, Please keep posting and reading. Comments like yours make me wish we could meet IRL so we could help each other through these tough moments. I feel helpless behind a screen and want to reach out to you in person. You shouldn’t be alone; it just isn’t right.


      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Thank you, K.
        You are as reliable as Old Faithful!

        I understand your concern… that the barriers and distance are limiting, making us feel helpless. But you do such a fine job, K, of helping us in time of need. ❤

        And I must say, HG proves to be quite the dependable chap himself.

        1. K says:

          You are welcome BurntKrispyKeen
          The blog is great because we can reach out and help anytime from anywhere but sometimes you feel helpless because, when someone is really hurting, you want to reach out and connect IRL so they know that they are not alone. To connect with someone who completely understands you, over a drink or a cup of tea, can make a world of difference in someone’s life.

    10. mommypino says:

      Renarde, I am so thankful that your children saved you. You are so beautiful, kind, and intelligent. This world wouldn’t be as good without you. You have been a light to some people here even without knowing you or with just a brief amount of interaction with you. No matter how small you think your interaction with your children are, you will never truly know how much influence or light you have shone on them. We were both raised by narcs and we both know how much that sucks. Your children are lucky that they have opportunities to be woth someone who truly loves them unconditionally. I wish I had that with my dad when I was growing up. You are so strong to have been able to endure your childhood and then being revictimized in your adult life. You are an amazing example of strength and character to your children. They are so amazingly lucky that you are their mom. I admire and commend you for staying strong for your children. What you did is the highest form of selfless and unconditional love.

      1. Renarde says:

        Yes, my children did save me – I never thought of it like that before.

        If I have helped others than that feels so good – I really hope I have. I find asking for help incredibly difficult. PN loved to say ‘no’. Every time I need to ask for help I get so incredibly anxious that it will be refused that I often will just muddle through somehow.

        Thank you of reminding me that I didn’t have an empathic person in my immediate family. That’s important because the kids have one in me and it’s up to me to model that for them and I need to remember that. I think now, that there was at least one, maybe two in my own grandparents. I am so sorry mommy that you had the monumental misfortune of having two of the fuckers.

        Thank you for all of your kind words. It’s very much appreciated xxx

        1. mommypino says:

          You’re so welcome Renarde. I’m so happy that you are doing so much better. Also, even if they have other empaths in their lives like cousins, uncles, etc., you are the most important empath in their loves because you are their mother. You’re the only mom that they will ever have in this lifetime in this entire world. And they are so lucky that you are their mom. I’m so happy that you are in better spirit. 💕

          1. Renarde says:

            Thank you sweetheart x

    11. Tappi Tikarrass says:

      Hi Renarde
      Your children will figure out the truth- eventually. Remember that you are their mother and thus some of you and your influence must live inside them.

      NarcAngel and mommypino have written beautiful responses to you. Please reread them as much as required to try and counteract that negative and destructive part of your mind.

      The state of the NHS is also infuriating to read about but this is not the place to discuss that topic.

      Please come here and try to write whenever the pain is unbearable.

      Like you, I have also lost everything at one point or another and with different narcissists. Like you I was suicidal. My children were the only thing that prevented me from attempting.

      Is there someone, anyone you know who will just be with you, hold you and comfort you whilst this pain is raging inside you. Be with you while you try and release the pain. If I could, I would. Unfortunately there’s several thousand kilometres between us.

      Sending you love and hope and clarity xo

      Please let us know you’re ok

      1. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        there are many other beautiful responses here for you apart from NAs and mommypinos, which appeared when I posted my own comment!

      2. Renarde says:

        I am deeply sorry that you have also been affected by NPD abuse in this way. I know what you must have gone through and you are courageous.

        There are people around me and in that respects I am more fortunate than most. A consequence of weaponisation is that I can choose to interact with an N or not and thus I have had to let some people drift out of my life who could have supported me – or rather, where supporting me on their terms.

        My partner/boyfriend/whatever is meant to be coming round tonight but I’m really not sure he will. I want him too, He’s good company and when we are together we have an amazing time. There is also another man, a friend. He’s aware (he’s not HG!. For a while I wasn’t sure if he was aware but I spoke to him yesterday for a good couple of hours. Having only recently spoken to HG then speaking to my friend; the similarities are stunning.

        I’ve been speaking to my friend for well over a year now and yesterday was the first time that I understood every single word he said but more importantly, the images he was painting by the use of words, well I could see why he thought that way. This is I think a result of finally accepting who I was.

        I don’t really know what will happen with my other friend in the long term. I had wanted to do Valentine’s day but I think he will say it’s too ‘coupley’. So I asked out the Greater. He told me he’d get back to me.

        I do hope he can, I’ve not seen him in ages. Of course, this isn’t a romantic thing for us but I think the thought of it amuses him as everyone will assume we’re nobbing each other. But this goes far beyond sex. Far beyond.

        Thank you for your kind thoughts and wishes x

      3. NarcAngel says:

        Tappi T
        Your comment to Renarde was very comforting and I’m glad that you (and others as well) raised the subject of the children. They do need you and look to you, and they will remember what they witnessed later, even if they are too young to understand what they see now, so your actions are paramount to their development. I’m glad that you did not succumb to your dark thoughts and that now you and your children have each other.

      4. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Thank you NA. I take your reply as a compliment. You really are a vital presence on this blog. Your counsel is astute, wise and displays a thorough understanding of narcissism. Your wicked sense of humour is also a delight to read.

        If HG does enlist or more hopefully, employ, moderators in the future, he would be remiss not to utilise you! I’ve thought that a while now but kept it to myself for fear of misperceptions of fawning xo

        1. NarcAngel says:

          That is so very kind of you to say and much appreciated. I enjoy your participation as well. We all contribute, and the diversity of styles of interaction and delivery ensures that there will be something for every person who visits to resonate with. That is important to remember I think, when we do not necessarily agree with or relate to someone individually. There are others who might. Again, thank you.

      5. mommypino says:

        Thank you Tappi Tikarrass,

        What you wrote to Renarde was also very heartfelt and beautiful. I’m so happy that she is feeling all of the love from everybody.

      6. Mercy says:


        Man sometimes I forget the stress attached to having children at home. Never knowing if your doing the right thing, feeling guilty for being tired instead of having a play day with our kids. Every decision from what time to wake up, what’s to eat, what am I going to do this weekend, should I take this job, everything you do is balanced with what’s good for your son.

        “I know my son does not see me as a very ‘fun’ mom lately…” It’s not actually our job to be “fun mom”. It’s our job to teach them to be healthy functioning adults. Due to your circumstances, you are having a hard time. You’re struggling with being healthy yourself. Give yourself a break when you need it. Your son will be grateful for a well rested mom. Your experiences and how you work through them are going to help teach your son how to work through the hard stuff. Those lessons are going to follow him throughout life. Being a single mom means there’s very little time for fun. It’s ok, I promise he will still love you. There will be a time when he’s a little more independent and you’ll have some free time to get things done. Then it’ll create time to plan fun stuff.

        After reading your story I have huge respect for you as a mother. You are dealing with some really bad stuff right now and your determination to do what’s best for him is very clear. It gets easier WhoCares, it really does. When your son is grown, your heart will feel so much pride for the person he has become.

        1. WhoCares says:


          I didn’t get an alert for this comment – then had found it and then lost it again in this thread – finally found it again and I really wanted to respond.

          Thank-you for taking the time to write that; from one parent to another. You capture the experience all perfectly. And I recognize that it’s not my job just be a ‘fun’ mom but I’m worried about conveying to him that everything I must do is ‘necessary’ or ‘a chore’ and even ‘an annoyance’ and I don’t verbalize this to him; but he can sense it and observe things. One way that I’ve nearly always managed to protect him was by normalizing things – that always included having fun times – regardless of the adult conflict – during entanglement. Because I want him to never forget how important his joy is…and I do that best by making room for joy in our life but lately I’ve been neglectful in this area because of necessity.
          Thank-you for telling me it gets better – I actually needed to be reminded of that.

          I know that I will revisit your comment again – it is much appreciated ♡

          And Renarde’s situation puts it all into perspective for me. While I reflect on my parenting stress I could still be fighting for my child – and that is partly why I feel for her situation. And I’m sure there are others in a similar circumstances.

          1. Mercy says:

            WhoCares, I’m not getting alerts for this thread either. I was scrolling and saw your response.

            I thought of you the other day. My daughter sent me a pic the day before Valentine’s. It was my grandson holding his Valentine’s box that him and his mom made for school. The box was wrapped in red paper and hearts drawn all over it. He had the biggest smile and he looked so proud. The next day I went over to watch the kids while my daughter and her husband went to dinner. She told me that other kids at school went all out with their boxes. One made a volcano and another made a unicorn. I could tell that she felt like she failed. It broke my heart that she felt like that because I know my grandson still enjoyed the time they spent together making the box.

            My daughter had just turned 16 when she got pregnant. Talk about feeling like I failed, I certainly did. She had him while she was still in high school. She had enough credits that she was able to graduate as a junior. She went on and got her two year degree and is on her third year of her bachelors. During this time, she met her husband and had two more children. She’s 22, a full time student, has a full time job, 3 kids, a husband and they are buying their first house. I’m not bragging about my daughter’s accomplishments, I’m saying that as a parent, I thought I had failed her as she was growing up. 16 and pregnant isn’t something you want to run and tell all your friends and family. It turns out that I didn’t fail her. Raising 3 girls on my own was the hardest thing I ever did. I was filled with doubt every step I took. When it mattered, she didn’t remember that I use to put them to bed early so I could have alone time or that there were weekends I wouldn’t let them have friends over because I couldn’t afford to feed more kids. The lesson she learned is that when faced with challenges, we don’t give up. We work through it and become better because of it.

            It’s good that you set time aside for fun. That can’t always be an easy thing to do when you’re dealing with a narc ex. Joy is a necessity too and that fact that you recognize his needs is commendable. You need fun time too!! Just don’t beat yourself up when your joy is only red paper and hearts instead of a volcano. Leave the volcanoes to Pinterest mom’s with normal healthy husbands. ♥️

          2. WhoCares says:

            Oh god, Mercy – I have so much to say to this – thank-you for writing it.
            But this cracked me up:

            “Leave the volcanoes to Pinterest mom’s with normal healthy husbands.”

      7. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Mommypino it is a special space this blog. The support peeps provide each other here keeps my spark of hope for humanity alive and flickering.
        I’m not one for forums, chat rooms, blogs and social media but HG has created a safe haven here- however unwittingly.

        There is an openness and enthusiasm in your posts I really admire mommypino xo

        1. HG Tudor says:

          There’s nothing unwitting about it.

      8. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Definitely NarcAngel. We all bring something to the blog xx

      9. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        Roger that, HG

      10. Tappi Tikarrass says:

        HG! I mean ‘roger that’ as in OK
        Not bugger/sodomise!!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yeah, yeah.

    12. WhoCares says:


      I was horrified at what you wrote and I was very torn about how to respond because I know that it would rip my heart out to be in your situation. I also  feel guilt  (yes, guilt), but fortunate, at the same time, that I have managed to keep custody of my child and keep him safe. I admit that the battle has been hard fought and not without a cost itself.

      I recall the day I went to family court to seek emergency custody of our son. I had no childcare so I took my son with me. It was one of the most challenging days of my life because I knew, literally, nothing about the legal system, I was fighting an internal emotional battle about whether it was even the right thing to do and my son was acting out horribly – because we were stuck waiting there all day long. I remember – more than once that day –  wanting to just give up and walk out of there.

      The only thing I had going for me then was my determination to protect my child and the fact that I planned ahead that morning and had packed toys and activities – oh, and a bag of candy.

      I no idea what to say or how to compose my words on the legal papers – but I managed to get 3 minutes…*3 MINUTES*  with the lawyer who was on duty counsel that day – before she headed out for lunch. Those 3 minutes of counsel were sufficient. I filed my papers and then it was just a waiting game – to see if the judge that day even had time to read them!!!

      I recall following my child everywhere (because he couldn’t sit still any longer) and taking away every single paperclip that he got his hands on (and there were many in that environment – on the floor etc.!!!) Because at his age he did not know the true purpose of paperclip and thought ( because he had seen the movie Penguins at a relative’s house) thought what you did with them was straighten out one side and pick the locks of all the doors. So there I was, stressed and mortified, following him around as he proceeded to try to pick every lock of every office door in the vicinity.

      I finally broke down and said “Here” as I passed him the entire bag of candy to enjoy to his heart’s content – something I ALWAYS said I would never, ever do as a mother…Ha.

      I finally got an answer back from the judge, in my favour, at five minutes before the office would close. I was still there, with my son, apologizing to the security officer as I picked up the strewn mess of candies and children’s toys and then I handed the security guy a decent length of a paperclip chain (that was the only way to redirect my son’s fascination with paperclips.)

      I’m not sharing this story to hold it up and say look what I achieved  (it’s been a long, hard battle since then) but to say, that at any point, it could easily have taken a different turn of events. Many here have offered support and advice. I think you really should use this time to heal, recoup your strength and then fortify yourself.

      I also feel your pain regarding the legal system, social services, etc., and how some truly don’t understand narcissism…it’s been a huge education all around. But choose your battles carefully – I know I’ve had to. Conserve your strength. You’re extremely smart and your children will someday recognize real love and support. And your narc’s truly colours will eventually come out.

      1. Renarde says:

        Thank you WC. I’m sorry you had to experience that. If I knew then what I know now, I would never EVER have taken the route I did. I would have insisted he leave, or I’d have taken the kids and immediately filed for emergency custody myself. Of course I didn’t because I was running under the notion that children need both parents.

        One day, over a year ago, he was again threatening me with the children He did this quite a bit and of course it had the effect that I always felt he was going to ‘take them’. One day, he threatened it one too many times and I turned round and told him that it if he did that, I would leave the country and get a job – already been offered one in Qatar.

        His face drained and he now wore a look of panic. It took the full import of weaponisation to understand why. No – I couldn’t be allowed to go anywhere – he needs the fuel too much.

        He has a IPPS in place of course, the mad lesser. Funny woman. She knows about the threat to rape and is happy to be with someone like that? Yeah, that speaks volumes doesn’t it.

        It’s extraordinary how petty they can be when it comes to fuel. For example, I left the ex with all of the furniture – too many bad memories.

        The only thing we ‘fought’ over was, a kid you not, my vibrator. We actually had a row over a dman piece of plastic. Akways wonderd why – it was just because I wanted it. He did something very similar over my mobile phone. When I trade up, I’ve promised it to my son. He was delighted, he couldn’t stop talking about this momentous day.
        Of course ex heard and has now banned him from it. He wanted to take something away. Why shouldn’t he have the phone? Disgraceful. So yes, narcs colours have surfaced with others and are continuing to surface.

        Thank you so much x

        1. WhoCares says:


          “I was running under the notion that children need both parents.”

          I used to share this same belief (hence 9 years) but once you introduce abuse into the mix; you are forced to RE-prioritize everything.

          This is one thing that causes me great sadness – because I will likely never engage in a romantic involvement again. But due to the community where I live, and my particular situation, I make certain that my son has positive male role models in his life.
          The entire experience for me has really just been a repeated experience of RE-prioritization.

          Sometimes, when I couldn’t focus or seem to move forward I broke it down to a very simple list:


          Now that I’m re-engaging life this becomes a little more complicated but I always have the choice to chunk it down again that way if necessary.

          As empaths; we constantly need to remind ourselves that *we* are on that priority list too.

          1. Renarde says:

            I hear you WC. Just before my suicide I was 5th on my own list. I said stop when a woman I was mentoring in kink had her love life above my own (no idea how that happened).

            I find it hard, not to put myself first. There is always something going on.

            Thank you x

          2. WhoCares says:


            “Just before my suicide I was 5th on my own list.”

            Yes, 5th is not far of for many of us…

            I’m glad you’re feeling better. You truly can’t be there for your children now or in the future if you don’t take care of yourself.
            It really comes down to that analogy (one which I hate – but is so true): if you’re in an airplane and the oxygen masks come down – whose do you put on first? Yours or your child’s?

            Best wishes to you Renarde.

          3. Renarde says:

            Thankyou WC. You are absolutely correct. I need to be right and well. Thank you x

      2. NarcAngel says:

        You must have felt very alone and so stressed in having to do that while keeping your child entertained and unaware. But you got it done because your strength and focus. You’re a great mom. I don’t know exactly why, but I wish you’d have kept that paperclip chain. I see it as symbolic of that experience in a way.

        1. WhoCares says:


          Yes, thank-you, I did get it done.
          And, believe you me; by the end of that day I felt like I never wanted to see another paperclip. But I appreciate what you’re saying and perhaps I should have kept it.

          I’ll tell you the rest of that story.

          Because my day was done, yes, but my internal emotional turmoil wasn’t done with me. I agonized later that night, while I tried to fall asleep; did I do the right thing? And isn’t it a horrible thing to do to his father…or to our family?? I was torturing myself thinking such things and couldn’t fall asleep despite being pretty emotionally exhausted.

          Here’s the odd part – ever since I brought that baby home from the hospital I have had low level anxiety about something happening to him. You could attribute that to just natural maternal over-protectiveness…but there was an element of the irrational (for lack of a better word) to it…

          I have worn glasses for many years, sometimes contact lenses, but not during the years that I’ve been a mom. Ever since that first night I had my son home from the hospital, sleeping beside me – or in the bassinet beside the bed – I could not bring myself to remove my glasses in the event that an emergency would happen and I couldn’t find them fast enough in order to see what to do.

          So because of this irrational fear of something happening to my son – I’ve slept with my glasses still on my face every night since.

          That particular night, after seeking interim custody, and still wrestling with my decision, I finally managed to fall asleep.

          When I woke in the morning I found my glasses neatly folded on the bedside table…(but I had no recollection of them getting there)
          That’s when I knew that I had made the right decision – because something inside me was at peace.

          I’m still wearing that pair of glasses. In fact, I’m overdue for new ones because of the wear and tear from sleeping with them on. But once I replace them, I will keep this pair…so, you see, NA? It’s the glasses that I will keep.

          1. MB says:

            WC, that made me tear up. You knew for the first time since his birth that your son was safe enough for you to remove your glasses and fall asleep. ❤️

          2. WhoCares says:

            Yes MB, that’s how I see it.
            I couldn’t pinpoint the source of my fear, but it was there. So I call it ‘irrational’

          3. NarcAngel says:

            I had a whole Hallmark commercial made around that chain of paperclips (really it was like a movie in my head after reading your story), but I’m glad you told the rest of the story. The glasses are a great symbol to keep.

          4. WhoCares says:


            “I had a whole Hallmark commercial made around the chain of paperclips (really it was like a movie in my head..”

            Hehehe NA – I can *almost* see it too…but, I confess; if I picture you directing a series of Hallmark commercials, or writing Hallmark cards, I would be seriously disappointed if they were not full of ‘NarcAngel-isms’

            NA, please never lose sight of the contributions you make here.

          5. WhoCares says:


            I should have been more explicit with my words: please don’t ever lose sight of the *value* of your contributions here.

      3. Mercy says:

        WhoCares, your story gave me chills. You may have had anxiety about if what you did was the right thing but subconsciously you knew it was right. Finding your glasses on the bedside table the next morning had to be a big sigh of relief. You are an amazing person!

        1. WhoCares says:


          “Finding your glasses on the bedside table the next morning had to be a big sigh of relief. You are an amazing person!”

          It was comforting to say the least.

          I don’t feel so amazing most days…I just did what I had to then – what I felt was necessary. But it’s all just a balancing act – and because of my choices there are certain things that we lack in our life that hopefully won’t have long term repercussions for my son.

          Even right now, due to current stressors, I know my son does not see me as a very ‘fun’ mom lately…because I can be all ‘business’ when stuff needs to get done…and ‘fun’ seems to be a luxury. I used to be a fun, instructive, creative mom a lot of the time. But narc stress affects my ability to function which in turn affects my parenting strategies.

          Even this morning here we’ve had a significant snowfall AGAIN. Enough to declare a ‘snow’ day but here that only means the school buses are cancelled yet the schools are open. So my son asked if we could have a ‘day off’ and I seriously considered just going tobogganing with him simply to have fun. But I have so much to do right now that I said if he stays home he’ll have to come shovel snow with me and if he goes to school he’ll get to play with his friends (what friends there will be since buses aren’t running.) He chose his friends. That is fine. I need the time to myself.
          And all I want to do right now is nap because he was up late last night with nightmares, so I comforted him and we talked until he was able to go back to sleep.
          So yeah…I’m going to nap and hopefully dream of Kentucky Bourbon Trails and ‘adulting’ with you all…

      4. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Hello WhoCares, I’m just now getting caught up on your journey. Your little boy sounds adorable. Your writings always allow me to be transported, so I could easily picture him with those paperclips. Whenever I’m talking on the phone at the office, I often find myself mindlessly bending my paperclips to straighten them out. Now I’m going to start saving then as emergency keys.
        And listen, no guilt on the candy…. that’s the only way I could keep my youngest son quiet in church when he couldn’t say truck. He was itty-bitty and for some reason the T-R came out as an F sound. He kept talking about this big ole red fuck he saw on his way into the congregation. Sugar has its purpose, you know. I agree with Narc Angel; it’s evident you are a good mother. ❤

        CONGRATULATIONS on the judge ruling in your favor. I have long thought of you as a beautiful soul, so no doubt you deserved this break. And the story of your glasses… I agree with MB and the others… it’s a beautiful testament to your spirit, your strength and what’s yet to come.

        1. WhoCares says:


          Yes, those emergency keys can be handy!

          I couldn’t believe it when he recognized the first paperclip (from the Penguins movie) and exclaimed “Hey, I know what these are for!” and then demonstrated his lock-picking skills for all to see – while I was there asking them to put him fully in my care! I wasn’t joking when I said I wanted to walk out there.

          Yeah, I’m past the guilt over the candy – but it’s funny how we will judge parents and their choices – and *then* you find yourself in a situation where it suddenly hits you why there could be good reason why a mother happily hands over a full bag of candy to her child.

          Your little guy sounds sweet – I would hope that other members of your congregation would be forgiving but yes, I certainly see how disconcerting that would be for you – and how handy some sugar would be! But it’s pretty funny..and now you’ll have a story for you son later…

          Thank-you for your last paragraph ♡

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        And just to clarify, WhoCares… I know you received custody a bit ago, but I was foggy if that story was nine years ago or more recently? You may have already stated, but I was curious as to how often you have to “deal” with his father?

        Regardless, I am so pleased to know that your son is with you. Again, congratulations that you had a wise judge!

        1. WhoCares says:


          That story is from, roughly, two years ago.

          I currently have no direct contact with his father – it is all through third parties – which is a beautiful thing when you are “co-parenting” with a narcissist.

          I attribute that result to a combination of my actions, finally having a really good lawyer and – last but not least – what I’ve learned here and in consultation with HG.

          And yes I had a wise judge that day – which is why I’m so content that I persevered through.

    13. nunya biz says:

      I’m so glad you are seeing a dr. I mentioned yesterday going to one myself just to get me through half a year or so. My situation is no where near yours, nowhere near, and I should be very thankful I don’t have a custody fight and won’t make one. I know these things can happen against all sense. The worst thing in the world is one someone refuses to put the kids ahead of things and can’t/won’t see that and you feel helpless. Unbelievable. And a third party.
      I hope that you have access to support since you can’t meet people from here (makes sense we can’t considering the topic)- there are systems in place where I live at this time that are helpful. It’s just enough, it doesn’t fix everything, but can be enough to help a person pick themselves up and you never know where you may find a breakthrough. I’m a fan of group environments to meet people in similar circumstances because it helps perspective.
      I’m glad HG could help, I find him reassuring sometimes because he is so objective.

      1. shesaw says:

        Renarde, it’s good to hear that you found the courage to look forward again. It must have been very dark for you and it is great to see that so many sent you their support.
        I imagine that in such a situation HG’s focus on the case is extremely helpful and so good that he could be there so soon.
        There will be hard work left for you to do but the most important thing is that you are still here. And fighting. That’s braveness! Whishing you lots of courage.

      2. Renarde says:

        Thank you NB. I really appreciate your words. Group environments can be tricsky and I am also avoidant. Not because I can’t deal with the inevitable Ns that rock up: I just can’t be arsed.

        I just can’t be fucking arsed with the lessers and the bleeting middles. I do have a soft spot (funnily enough) for the lessers but the middles?

        Jesus Christ. I’d like to collectively get their clipboard and ran it up their own arse. Side ways. Pathetic little bunch of fools. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. How can one entire school be defined because of what they aren’t?

        Oh I forgot. They’re pathetic.

        Middle middle, ner ner ner ner. Fucking twats. Good god people. Stop right now sitting on the fence. You got splinters in yer bum? Stand up, take a side, any side for the love of God. They can’t and they won’t. The love of the clipboard runs too strong with them.

        You know; I can respect a lesser. They’re genuinely fun people even if they are handy with their hands. At least they believe in something! Middles – no, I just can’t. Slimy, obsequious, golden tongued, pieces of shit. They lie. They lie to your fucking face. But let’s everything be reasonable. Please be reasonable. I can’t cope if you’re not reasonable.

        No you fucking cannot.

        Middles belive in nothing because they are nothing. They do not exist apart from what is fed to them. To this end (and apologies HG) I get why you did this? Call them lessers and middles and the aware greater school. But that also implies that lessers are less than the middles and they are not.

        I cannot even believe I am on narcsite arguing for lesser-rights but I am.

        Fuck me sideways but thank you for your kind thoughts NB which are always appreciated x

        1. SMH says:

          hahaha Renarde. Mine is a middle and I once asked HG how he would react if I told him he was not a greater. You know, dear MRN, you’re a narc – you have a personality disorder – but sad to say, you’re one of the dull ones. Unfortunately, I never got the chance because I found the blog too late.

          1. Renarde says:

            Oh the middles are very silly people indeed. Very silly.

      3. nunya biz says:

        Lol, Renarde, that actually got me giggling.
        Middles believing in nothing and clipboards and being reasonable with lies, I felt you were talking about my husband. Who I try not to be mean about and I’m still not sure if he’s just very highly narcissistic, but I am 100% honest with him at all times and these are things I would say to him directly, so there it is. But he is trying to peacefully help me divorce him currently as I throw random shit fits and freak outs because I cannot believe some of the things he does. As long as he doesn’t get viscous and go into *extreme apathy* (dead zone) mode, which I am very familiar with and causes me some soul-death experience and he hasn’t done it to that level in years because I think I finally have him understanding what emotions are and that I legitimately have them…I will find my way through. I need his help very much and I won’t complain about that at all. I’ve told HG about my fears a bit because I have some unique circumstances I think.
        Lessers are good with their hands.
        I am a middle-magnet to the extreme. EXTREME.

        Btw, thank you for offering a unique plethora of postings from the perspective of altering views on sexuality, I wish that I could mentor with you myself, I’m too timid to whip anyone.

      4. nunya biz says:

        “Group environments can be tricsky and I am also avoidant. Not because I can’t deal with the inevitable Ns that rock up”

        Oh, and I meant to say-
        I am very avoidant for this reason. It was difficult for me to seek support specifically because I’ve dealt with and been targeted by so many N’s (I didn’t understand why I was avoiding people even though I have very friendly social leanings). But I am getting better and far more able to handle because I didn’t have the “handbook” so to speak before. Even my job is a bit reclusive and calm on purpose, but ironically draws N manipulations to me frequently. In the group I did participate in there was a MRV, textbook by HG’s definitions. At first I thought he was borderline. Wild to watch, absolutely wild. I wanted to leap across the table and strangle him a few times, so much for low ET.

      5. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Nanya Biz, part of your posts were cracking me up. 😄 Best wishes to you as you get through your divorce.

      6. nunya biz says:

        BKK, I’m actually kind of curious to get divorce best wishes since I have only just started bringing it up like it’s a real thing : ).
        I am moving through on prayer and hope, it is challenging for me for a multitude of personal reasons, but I am very very hopeful that it will go through as easily as possible with nothing but a mediator and a pen. I have just knocked on my wooden side table.
        Yikes, there goes that anxiety again.
        I am terrified but also brightened by the thought that I might get a very long earned break.

      7. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Nuna Biz, it is an extremely difficult decision to make. I divorced my non-narcissist husband after a 31 year marriage. (I still love him; I always will.) He cheated on me with a co-worker at a time in our marriage when I thought we were the happiest. I was so dedicated to him, that if Brad Pitt would have tried to sweep me off my feet, I would have declined. (Thank you for allowing me to humor myself there. 👀) But it is true; we were at a good place in our relationship. Or so I thought – at least until she came along. And in all fairness to my ex-husband, I have learned from others that this woman went out of her way to attract his attention. Or as a someone described it in a clear, vulgar manner, “She was rubbing her pussy all over him.”

        I caught on to their affair quickly, but because he knew that he “was caught” (or so he later told me) he panicked and ran to her for comfort and… I can only imagine. I was crushed.

        Their little escapade continued right before my eyes. My now ex-husband said he thought that he and I would never make it after I caught him, so he directed his attention to where the fighting and crying didn’t exist. But like most affairs, he saw that the grass was no greener… as a matter of fact, that lawn was full of weeds… so he quickly tucked his tail and became humble towards me, trying to win back my trust. I simply wanted what we had before. But as you know, Nanya Biz, it is never quite the same. I struggled to get over it but did my best to keep my family together. I did not run out and in retaliation, cheat. I remained the loyal wife… until my narcissist came along. We started as friends, though he let me know right up front that he was attracted to me. I had no intention of it going past that as I was not physically attracted to him. But there was always about him. I was drawn to him like a mother to a candle, but I told myself “there’s no way you can cross the line with this guy.” My gut told me during our first encounter that “this guy is trouble.” I even warned my girlfriends, yet I had to know more about this creature who was different from anyone I’d ever met.

        He was incredibly charming, and of course, he eased into questioning me on my marriage. This narcissist made such a presence in my life that I felt comfortable enough to open up to him. As you can imagine, he took that dark spot in my life and used it to his full advantage… talking of how crucial trust and fidelity is in a relationship. He layed it on thick! He mirrored me so well, that I couldn’t believe I was blessed to have met someone so perfect for me.

        (Doesn’t it all sound familiar?)

        I am ashamed that I succumbed to him. Once I did, I was no longer intimate with my husband. I did not “mix” the two, if you will. I just couldn’t, and I also simply didn’t want to for both of their sakes (even though I made the narcissist get tested for STD/I before I had any physical relations with him; something in my gut new I best be safe with this cat.) But I gave my heart to him, and once I do, I cut out other males, including my own husband.

        So, of course I feel as though being entangled with a narcissist was my just punishment. But truthfully Nunya Biz, no one deserves that type of abuse. I feel your pain in making this decision. I filed for my divorce more to “reset” my life. I knew that something was wrong in my marriage (and with me) for me to even consider an affair. It no longer felt “right” with my husband, but it eventually felt all so wrong with the narcissist. So I took the step and quietly divorced… so that for once, I can focus on me… once I find out exactly who she is. 😮 (I know, but there’s more to learn.) So my heart goes out to you Nanya Biz; it’s a brave and exciting yet sad and frightening step to take. Again, best wishes as you find your way… to wherever you decide to go. 😊

      8. nunya biz says:

        That is a crazy story, BKK.
        I felt dedicated to my husband for a long time and I really like being that way. 31 years is a very long relationship! I am at 17 years. I think I started feeling a howling loneliness at some point because he cannot connect the way that I need. Just cannot. And he started trying to get his needs fulfilled in ways that never worked for me, he wanted things I never wanted and he never prioritized the things I did want so that I feel invisible to him. That is the opposite of me, I can see people very clearly and I like to love hard. It’s like when someone always finishes your sentences wrong.
        He ended up sacrificing being my partner, because I don’t think he really can, in favor of spending time with someone who is nothing like me and also in ways like you describe, seemingly to avoid the “difficulty” of me. I feel that he chose someone with no emotional depth, like himself, and that he cannot see me for who I am. I don’t get it and I never will, but I also think I could never wrap my mind around how to make it work and it all turned into one giant compromise. We haven’t had sex in going on a year and my decision to divorce is only because I have no choice, I would really rather not. But I know I will never have sex with him again, so it’s done. I just feel like I have to separate my identity from other people right now. It is driving me crazy. “Reset” is a great word. Thank you for sharing that, I feel some things in common with your story, though it is different.

      9. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Wow, Nunya Biz, this is such a difficult time you are going through.
        I do think, like we have both already stated… that they tend to run to wherever is the “easiest” … or most peaceful for THEM… where they’re not getting “beat up” by our accusations or by our disappointments. (I was pretty hard on my husband when we were in the midst of his affair. Actually, I was horrible.)

        I felt so abandoned by him, but I came to understand that they (men) want to be to where they don’t feel like they’re disappointing someone… as time with the new woman (or even alone) is better than failing (in the male mind). I am talking about non-narcissist men in general, and if I do understand correctly, Nunya Biz, you are not certain if your husband is a full-on narcissist? (Regarding my narcissist, at first I thought that he was borderline, too. So much of BPD fits him, but my gut knew that there was more to it.)

        In general, it seems after “normal” men who cheat have been away a bit, it’s as if they grasp that their feeling of “failure” isn’t just based on our reaction. They start to actually accept that their ACTIONS caused our reaction. Often, they come back around, and then it’s one of two difficult choices: Do you stay and try to work it out, or do you cut your loses and end the marriage? Both options feel like a lose-lose… until we figure it out.

        Narcissist husband or not, it is so hard! My hesrt goes out to you, Nunya Biz. Do you think, however, that your husband could come to realize that he wants to give the marriage the effort it needs? (Though – if you feel you can never be intimate with him again, it will be almost impossible to work it out, so I understood why you said you have no choice. I thought the same thing with mine. It was like a dirt he couldn’t wash off.)

        I told my husband that there was no way I’d ever put my mouth on his **** again! And I meant it – I couldn’t stomach the thought of where his body has been, and when we did finally get to the point where we would try to be intimate, many times I’d have to stop as a visual of her on top of him would pop into my head. Betrayal, whether it’s due to another woman or a man just not living up to his commitment, it destroys something inside of us. I wish you the best here, Nunya Biz. You deserve to be happy, and I pray that you will be able to make all the right decisions to lead you there. ❤

        1. Lou says:

          BKK, i hope you don’t mind me asking, do you know how long your ex husband’s affair lasted?
          Sorry if you’ve already mentioned this.

      10. nunya biz says:

        Yes BKK, I just feel terribly betrayed by many many things and I can’t get over it. 2 years ago I might have even gone to counseling but this last time he said he would I said no. I don’t want to fix it anymore. And I’ve contemplated whether he is a narcissist or not but also just thought in the end it doesn’t matter. He can be self-centered to extreme anyway, and he does the word salad stuff and all that to get out of having to look outside of himself, so he may as well be. He does good things regularly, he’s not the devil, but it seems to be out of mostly blind belief in “should” and very little to do with actual and so I have to make sure to add that sense to things frequently. And cannot emotionally connect intimately. I mean a lot is the stuff that HG talks about. So I could do my part of everything but his part will never be there, so I just don’t see the point. And I decided to give myself permission to be unhappy and to seek fulfillment regardless instead of just gas-lighting myself- which seems like the direction you went also.
        Because like here you say…

        “it’s as if they grasp that their feeling of “failure” isn’t just based on our reaction. They start to actually accept that their ACTIONS caused our reaction.”

        That to me is the description of a deeply self-centered person.

        Eh, I am interested in my life as a learning experience so I am aiming to get back to some greater enthusiasm. Despite my recent complaints, and thank you so much for understanding the difficulty of it, I do feel and see myself on a good path. I sometime smile about it.
        I am watching this netflix show “The Good Place”, I bet it’s been mentioned before considering the plot. Pretty cute, I’m curious where they’re going to go with it.

  14. claflyn says:

    Interesting that time was not an option.
    I was married to my ex for 30 years. In that time, I nearly lost my home due to his grandiose business ventures, and the divorce has been a typical field of landmines, but overall I feel quite fortunate. Despite the considerable financial loss required in defending myself against him, the outcome has been equitable and my children are older so there were no battles over custody.
    I mourn the loss of time I could have invested in myself and other relationships, but am thankful that I still have time to find a healthy, mutual relationship and that I didn’t live out my life with this empty shell of a man.


    My ignorance

  16. Clariel Parke says:

    My creativity and my ability to write. When I told him, he just nodded and gave me an enigmatic little smile.

  17. Julie says:

    I will never allow anyone to get that cloae to me again.. EVER.

  18. Geminimom says:

    He got the bulk of the money he managed to hide but I realized later he wasnt hiding it from me. I got half of what wasn’t hidden. Home and couple of accounts. I got way more than if I had stayed and lived blindly. Screwed up one kid. What is strange is I didn’t break until I realized he was the problem of our family problems. He has moved closer to me and I don’t know why because he doesn’t try to contact me and I don’t him either. My plan for him is going slowly but surely. As soon as I complete the last task of this relationship, things will take a turn for him.

    Will you consider a poll on the degree of happiness we are after escaping the narc?

    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I shall consider it, yes.

      1. WhoCares says:

        Or a poll about what we’ve gained from from being involved with a narcissist?

        (That seems to be coming out naturally in some people’s responses to this poll.)

        1. HG Tudor says:


      2. Mercy says:

        WhoCares, I’ve gained 15 pounds.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Hahaha. But that extra storage is to hold your happiness now and not fuel.

          1. Mercy says:

            NA, Haha leave it to you to organize my fat rolls. You are full of organizing tips and tricks. Love it!

      3. WhoCares says:

        “WhoCares, I’ve gained 15 pounds.”

        Oh, Mercy – I just saw this now!


  19. StrongerWendy says:

    I check the boxes on many of these. Here’s my novella…

    First narc (first boyfriend) at 13 – 16, told me I was beautiful but then switched to saying I should realize that I wasn’t that good looking and that I was lucky to have him (apparently I’m not that bad, but that age was a time when I was forming the core of how I felt about myself – I can now see in retrospect – and this has affected my belief in myself/self esteem for many, many years). Net net is that I think someone will find me attractive and likable but won’t once they get to know me. Somehow that became truth to me per my first boyfriend. Being a child, I took this to be gospel as I thought this was love didn’t have any other example.

    He watched my eyes as we walked down the corriders between classes to make sure I didn’t look at anyone and claimed I did when I didn’t, he beat up boys he thought were interested in me and even made one eat bark from a tree. I grew to want to not bring attention to myself so that no one else would be hurt. He pushed all boundaries and didn’t care that I cried every time he pushed me further sexually. He cheated on me with my dear best friend (and others) but wouldn’t let me go. Part of that triangulation was to coerce me into having sex with him (I can now see as an adult). Someone being in control became comfortable to me because it’s all I knew.

    I escaped because my mother remarried and I had to move to another state. I became entangled with my second narc there (17 -19). More love (and AMAZING sex that I shouldn’t have been introduced to at such a young age…but I digress…) associated with horrific cheating. This second narc tried to hoover me 20 years later so what HG says about there being no time boundary on hoovering is true.

    Back to First narc: he stalked me and found me when I went to college and cornered me. I avoided him by hiding at friend’s dorms until he left. He killed himself – shot himself in the head – a week later and a friend of his contacted me to let me know. I felt nothing. Nothing but relief. I feel guilty for not feeling more. I should have felt something.

    Years later, I got married. Glorious golden period then there were red flags like silent treatments and physically leaving the building when I disagreed with him. Three days before our wedding, he presented me with a pre-nup and said I should have a lawyer look at it. I was stunned and crushed. I did take it to a lawyer who advised me not to sign it. Ironically, my fiancee didn’t have anything of value to protect. It just stated that if he ever did, I didn’t get any of it. I told him I wouldn’t sign it and if he wanted to call off the wedding three days before it then he could. He did not. I should have (there’s that retrospect again…).

    About 10 years later my ex husband narc became addicted to opioids after a back injury. It was also horrific. Never would have expected that in a million years. Blamed me for not being supportive enough. I had to divorce him and get my three kids into a healthier environment. I had to support us all and had to get away from him to do so. He dragged out the divorce at every turn. Finally agreed to it if I gave up my claim on our house and he legally agreed to take me off of the mortgage. He did not take me off of the mortgage and then didn’t pay for the house. It went into foreclosure and affected my credit for quite a while. I was also tied to his businesses IRS debts and loans he took out without my knowledge. I had to use half of my 401k savings to pay the IRS because they couldn’t find him and could only find me. They would have garnished my wages to the point that I couldn’t feed my children so I had no choice but to use my 401k savings to pay them. My ex husband said I was stupid to have done that. He also started to use my credit cards without my knowledge saying “it’s my right as your husband.”

    Two years after the divorce I felt it was ok to try to date. Went online. My last narc found me there. Massive golden period and boy was I thirsty for it. I didn’t know at the time that a golden period was a thing. All of my relationships have begun with amazing and delicious golden periods (since they have all been with narcs). To this day I don’t know how healthy relationships are supposed to start since I have no other point of reference and have rejected most normal men (again, I now realize in retrospect). I just don’t know how to react to them and find them boring. But I’m trying to get past that.

    So, over time I found that almost everything on the last narcs online profile wasn’t real. I was too busy letting myself be blinded be the golden period to do any checking. He started to borrow money, but paid it back (at first, but then didn’t and eventually I was paying for everything because he was “between jobs”). I felt that a partner was supposed to be supportive through thick and thin (lol…silly me) so I believed all of his stories about the next job he was getting, etc. His next big scheme. Hmmm, it should have been strange that he kept losing jobs…

    So I was with him for 6 years. Everyone but me saw he was a con man. Even my children. I started to put some boundaries up – like I’m not giving you any more money, for example, and my devaluation began. On a Valentines day, no less, he broke up with me because he said that all of his bad luck was because he was living with me in sin and couldn’t have sex before marriage. He claimed to be a born again Christian (yep, i know…I sure can pick them!). He was making a show of crying and dramatically left. I think he expected me to beg him to stay but I didn’t. Later he texted me and said he was going to have to sleep in his car and might check himself into a hospital. I told him I’d pack his things up and put them outside. He said “if I really meant to leave do you think I would have left my stuff behind?” I put it all in garbage bags and put it outside. This must have enraged him because he sent insulting texts amongst the I love you more than life itself and want to be together texts. He even sent a text asking me to marry him. I said no, this isn’t the way i want to be proposed to.

    He ended up going to California to stay with his daughter (because he was essentially a homeless guy with out a penny to his name. Yes, I’m cringing at myself…). He kept texting me and calling me and saying all he could do was cry, I had broken his heart, sent me an avalanche of youtube links to love songs. He ended up threatening to kill himself. He described in detail how he was going to drive out to the desert and do it. I gave in.

    We were back together for six months, when out of the blue (we had just spoken as we normally would that morning) he sent me an email breaking up with me. Added that he’d never loved anyone like he loved me before.

    Ten days after that he sent me a text telling me that lightening had struck, he went on 5 dates with someone and he had married her the previous evening. That he wanted to let me know “out of respect” for me.

    I knew he was wrong for me at that point but was gutted, could not eat or sleep, lost 20 lbs in a month, could barely function but did because I have to as I’m a mother to three and they mean everything to me. Thank god (no I’m not particularly religious) I had the kids as a reason to keep moving though the pain.

    A few months later (about two years ago) I stumbled upon HG’s blog and learned a lot.

    So, in summary at some point over the years I lost my home, friendships, money, self-esteem, self-respect, sense of self trust in others.

    But, thanks to my new find awareness and “knowing the narcissist” they aren’t gone forever.

    Best wishes to everyone 🙂

    1. Omj says:

      SW thank you for sharing your story . It’s novel like reading you.
      I can read the meta observations and the distance your have gained.
      HG- seems like many of us have gained from the encounter with the devil , a poll around what we have gained, learned, considering the gain , was the pain worth it ?

    2. MB says:

      SW, that is quite a story! So, you’ve never been in a relationship with a normal man? Did I read recently that you are dating again? How is it going so far?

      1. StrongerWendy says:

        Tickety boo 🙂

    3. NarcAngel says:

      Wow, you’ve been through a lot, beginning young. Kudos to you for going back over it all to establish the pattern as that was likely not an easy trip down memory lane. I cheered for you in not giving in to him 3 days before the wedding and for finding the strength to put your children’s future first despite the hardships you encountered. I remain firmly in your corner cheering you on. You chose your name well.

      1. StrongerWendy says:

        Thanks NA. Writing it down allows me to let it go. Good luck to everyone 🙂

    4. Renarde says:

      Hello and welcome to the blog!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        SW has been here a long time Renarde, she comments infrequently but is a long-standing reader.

        1. Renarde says:

          Ahh thanks HG!

    5. S. Grace says:

      StrongWendy. Thank you for sharing your story. It helps to learn that others have similar journeys. You have overcome a lot of obstacles and grown from them. Now you are the wise…and as your name says, strong one.

    6. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      Hello StrongerWendy – Thank you for sharing your story. I am sorry that you had to endure so much tragedy within these relationships. Your story brings your moniker into clarity. It takes an incredible amount of strength to rise from narcissistic abuse. I am pleased to see that, while you’ve paid a huge price, you’ve prevailed.

      Thank you for your encouragement through your illustration of strength, and best wishes to you as you continue to move forward.

    7. Joanne says:

      Stronger Wendy
      HOLY SH*T. What a story. You’ve been through an entire parade of narcs and have been through so much. You certainly do have some strength and resilience to still be standing and able to share your story. I’m glad you found HG after all that (better late than never) and have been able to learn what happened to you and what to look out for. You stay strong!

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