The Rules of Ex Club – No. 9
26 thoughts on “The Rules of Ex Club – No. 9”
Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)
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Thank-you Mommypino, your words made me quite emotional. My aunt was an amazing person, I miss her and I wish my son could have known her and vice versa – as she adored children.
When I’m in a place of strength and stability I hope to be able to reach out to my aunt’s adult children if they need someone because it is what she would have done (and has done for me in the past.)
FYC,
“Since you shared a film with me, I was wondering if you have seen “The Shack”? It’s not relevant in terms of the main character’s background or specific loss, but the aspect of resolving pain and grief is handled beautifully. I believe grief resolution is an important part of the healing process for us too.”
Funny that you would bring up “The Shack” because I recently picked up the book, out of curiosity, while at the library with my son. I started reading it and put it back because we had to leave abruptly; but I found the story intriguing – I’ll have to lend it out next time or locate the movie. Thank-you for the suggestion.
And thank-you for your kind words in turn – and the offer of assistance. However, please don’t underestimate the support and validation you’ve already offered in our conversations. I absolutely feel like *finally* someone gets it – what I’ve been going through; even if I don’t quite grasp all that I’m going through myself – because I feel that I’m still in the throes of ‘going through it’ to be objective at times.
I know that I’ll revist your words.
So thank-you FYC for being the gracious and caring person that you are and for listening and sharing ♡.
WhoCares, I am so glad you found value in what I have shared with you so far. I stand with you. I will share more over time. I admire your fearless sharing.
I want to say, I believe the gift of your aunt lives on in you, and therefore your son will know her, albeit indirectly.
HG speaks of legacy on a knowable scale. I believe legacy exists in both the known and the unknown. The seen and the unseen. We all leave a legacy. We may not be aware how much we influence another’s life. That influence travels on to influence another or many others and in time, affects humanity as a whole. With awareness and knowledge, we are given more choice in what our legacy will be.
WC, thank you for being who you are and for bravely facing your difficulties and challenges. Something amazing is being forged through the process. I believe you will influence many lives WC, and they will be all the better for your influence. You have already influenced mine in a beautiful and caring way.
Here is the availability list for the film: “The Shack’ is currently available to rent, purchase, or stream via subscription on iTunes Store, Amazon.com, VUDU, and YouTube”
I hope you have an excellent day WC!
FYC,
I’m sorry – I just saw your reply. (I usually keep better track of conversations I’ve been in on – just not as good lately.)
I was very curious about your story FYC – as you give a lot here and I don’t know if you’ve already shared it somewhere – so I was hesitant to ask. You’re the child of a VMRN as well? I’m only just making sense of the damage done by a VMRN parent, because like you I’ve only become aware of it since finding HG’s work.
The reality of this realization (and the resultant damage) both frees me – and emotionally floors me (if I dwell on the damage part for too long.)
“If it were not a parent that also has legitimate needs for assistance, and for whom I care, I would cut ties. HG’s point that the N cycle does not end until one person dies is so true.”
I feel your struggle with this statement and recognize the situation you find yourself in.
I could easily find myself in a very similar situation … however, the depth of damage resulting from my romantic entanglement makes it nearly impossible for me to be there for my mother – I cannot handle further damage and my responsibility is to my son. It isn’t a choice I take lightly.
“The difficult part of being a child of a VMRN is, I did not know what they are until I read HG’s site. I paid a price for this former ignorance. I can never sufficiently express gratitude for HG’s works. When I say it’s life changing, it’s not flattery, it is real.”
You’re right about the ‘life changing’ aspect – and the price. Personally, I think my father paid a bigger price than I did and I wish I had had access to HG’s work back then…
I’m glad you had a good easter weekend FYC. I wish you well on your continuing journey and I always enjoy your contributions here.
Hello WhoCares, Thank you so much for your genuine kindness. I know you understand. I do not share much here by design in order to protect my anonymity in avoidance of unnecessary drama. I was moved by your story and felt compelled. I knew you would understand the analogy I gave. I have so much compassion for both my parents (one N, one normal). I see the bigger picture. Yes, I wish it were different, but I am also very blessed in so many ways. If I had had the knowledge I have gained here sooner, I would have made many different choices. The not knowing is so limiting. But I have gained a world of insight here and it changed everything. I am grateful in life for the many wonderful experiences I have had and for certain people that make all the difference.
Since you shared a film with me, I was wondering if you have seen “The Shack”? It’s not relevant in terms of the main character’s background or specific loss, but the aspect of resolving pain and grief is handled beautifully. I believe grief resolution is an important part of the healing process for us too.
I am sorry you have endured so much with your personal circumstances, WC. I know you have the power to heal and the strength to thrive. While you make your way to a better future, if you need any assistance I can offer, do not hesitate to let me know. You are wonderful and your son is no doubt a great source of love and joy. He will benefit from your knowledge and wisdom that you acquired the hard way.
Thank you again, WC. I value your authenticity, kind heart and voice of reason.
Re: the conversation between God and an Angel on women…
You know what; this is a beautifully written piece (like I mean the words themselves and the emotions they evoke and it still brought me to tears while reading it this time ’round) – and please don’t take this personally – because in the past this kind of sentiment would given me a perverse sense of comfort. But it no longer offers that.
When I was younger (pre-teen maybe and early teens) I used to wonder: why life had to be so *painful*…I couldn’t even figure out why it was painful. It drove me into introspection and books as an escape from the pain…my parents arguing all the time, tragedy striking people, the pain of incurable and degenerative diseases…pain that around me that so often made no sense whatsoever. I would look at the women in my family and hear the stories of they “endured”…despite all: poverty, marriages that fell apart, illness etc..etc…and I *believed* (at least this is what I reasoned out in my head at the time) that I and the women before me must just be meant to carry pain (our own pain and the pain of others) – because we were *strong* and no one else is strong enough to do so. But to make it *mean* something to me I had to believe that it must serve a purpose…I wasn’t sure – was I expected to learn something from it? Suffering is somehow meant to be endured? …Why?
When I was very young (and I haven’t thought about this in a while) I use to wish with all my heart that a winged Pegasus would come and take me away from all the *pain* – and you can chuckle at that – (even wee children know reality from fantasy) because it was a *fantastical* wish but it was a true wish to find some escape from the pain. (I knew no one and nothing was actually going to swoop in and save me.)
Funny thing is; most of those women who in my life led me to believe that life is trying and fraught with pain – never actually felt it themselves – not the way that I did. Because they were narcs and they never carried their own pain but shrugged it off on to others. I just assumed the inner experience of others equalled my own. Well, what a load of crap – because my inner experience is absolutely not the same as others.
And the truth is that no one – female or otherwise – is born or MEANT to carry another’s pain (plus our own) – we’re just deceived to believe that we are.
There IS useless and senseless pain in the world that does serve absolutely NO identfiable purpose.
So I agree with HG; it’s a perverse joke. And I finally got the joke.
Woman as Martyr, then, is basically a narcissistic coverup.
Oh, Mother Theresa just popped into my head!
WhoCares, I can totally relate. My younger self used to try to find anything that would inspire me and give sense to all of the pain. I have a lot of habits, attitudes and outlook that helped me survive under my matrinarc’s care that I am now trying to shed off because my situation has now changed and some of what used to be helpful to me are now detrimental. My core is still the same and I still believe in the same things but I now have more perspectives available in looking at everything. Thank you for your honest post. I love the realization of how your pain is not the same as their pain. So true.
Thank-you Mommypino. I fully admit that my ET is running high at times these days…so I appreciate you reading and understanding my comment because it was somewhat reactive. And I also appreciate the honesty of your past posts.
“I have a lot of habits, attitudes and outlook that helped me survive under my matrinarc’s care that I am now trying to shed off because my situation has now changed and some of what used to be helpful to me are now detrimental.”
I can only imagine how one’s survival instincts compensate for childhood experiences like yours. And I’m constantly amazed at you – and others here who had similar experiences – who turned out to be such strong, lovely people.
I still, at times, compare my experience with others and think ‘how can I relate?’ when I didn’t have a mother who seemed overtly abusive (I only recall one physically abusive episode towards me and it was when she was drinking and I was an adult – so, naturally, I blamed it on the alcohol). Of course, I can now relate better now, knowing the root of all our experiences is narcissistic abuse. For me, the bigger issue was the giant deception that was my childhood; as a result of narcissism.
And I do realize now that I was made to feel like I had to be the ‘strong one’, as a child, when adults around me were in pain – emotional, or otherwise. (I think this partly why I have such trouble accepting help from others, or even admitting that I need help – so I deal, mostly, with my physical and emotional pain on my own.)
I still recall my mom’s sister (my favourite aunt who I related to much better than my own mother and now know was an empath) and her words in the face of trauma and tragedy – and having to be the strong one as well, while others ‘collapsed’: “Who has the luxury of falling apart?”
I’m not judging those who do ‘fall apart’ (because I now understand why that might be the case for some) – but I do still abide by those words of my aunt’s and take strength from them. That aunt who always stood by her family, kept in touch with extended family and ‘who suffered no fools’, and reached out to others…
Guess where that got her? It got her kidney cancer AND extremely painful bone cancer. I still recall visiting her, just after she had been transferred, by ambulance, from one facility to the palliative unit of another facility. At the new facility they did not, at first, have a bed with the specialized mattress that her bone cancer-ridden body required, so after the ambulance ride and then the painful transfers – she was left in acute pain (the bone cancer had centred on a hip and tail-bone). There she was trying to endure unnecessary pain because the palliative nurses had no written doctors orders to allow them to up her pain meds – and her husband, being her power of attorney, was not present for the transfer. The nurses had given the most pain meds that they could but it didn’t address the extra pain from the jostling of being transferred etc…and up until then my aunt’s health had been mostly managed at home and there had seemed to be very careful management of her pain medication due to fear of becoming addicted to pain meds and not being ‘present enough’ to engage with family members…And as she writhed on the bed she would try but could not always keep from moaning in pain…then because I was there: she would APOLOGIZE for her expressions of pain…
Un-fucking-believable. I approached the nurses, of course, but their hands were tied. My cousin was there but was also in no position of authority to request additional meds because of the specific instructions…where the hell was my uncle?
(I know now, many years later, after my aunt’s been gone, that he is a narc – as he resorts to alcohol and has a string of women parading through his life – and is given to unprovoked outbursts around his adult children. But you wouldn’t have known it during my aunt’s marriage to him for 20 plus years – a “successful” happy marriage to all outsiders – even me.)
My point: completely UNNECESSARY pain.
Hi WhoCares, thank you for sharing the story of your favorite aunt. It sounds like she has a lot of positive influence on making you the strong and wonderful person that you are. Her legacy lives on in you. Thank God you are not a narc so you are now carrying her legacy and her beautiful spirit in your heart. She was 💯 correct and wise when she said, “Who has the luxury of falling apart?!”. That was a gift or a tool that she gave you that became useful for your survival.
It is so hard to see someone that you have seen to be very strong end up being weakened by illness and to see her in pain and see that her good soul shines through in spite of all of the pain. Witnessing that reminds us that regardless of how big our spirit is we also have a human body that we need to take care of and love. It is painful to think that all of her love and strength was not enough to make a difference for the other people in your family but it was more than enough to make a big difference in you in helping shape who you are today. I’m sure that for her it was so worth it. But I totally see your point and thank you for reminding us that we don’t need to dedicate our lives carrying other people’s burdens.
WhoCares
I understand that Kim meant for it to be inspiration that women are strong and to give comfort, so I don’t want her to feel bad for offering (and I know you don’t either), but I understand what you mean. I see it as romanticizing abuse and the offering that a woman’s strength is measured and valued in relation to her withstanding of it. Nonsense and martyrdom.
NarcAngel,
Thank-you for your input.
Agreed, I was NOT taking a shot at Kim, (as I said, years ago I would taken comfort in such words) has been shared by many elsewhere – I’m taking a shot at the danger embedded in the message conveyed by it.
But the thing is; it’s not just women NA…that’s the narrative that the women (and the culture around me) in my family were perpetuating BUT they were, mostly, female narcissists so that means they were the ones who were the source of stress in these situations and they scapegoated, smeared and placed blame on the men in their family and their tales of woe.
My own mother (I’m realizing now) smeared my father to me but I was too young, naive and fogged over to see it. And there were things that were just enough evidence to support her words – but as we know now it is all about perspective. This, in part, caused my relationship with my father to be strained for years…but I’ve only just realized, since finding HG’s work, the reality of it all. My father was an empath – and a care-taking type – like me…only he was held hostage by male stereotypes (don’t have feelings and if you’re angry: you must need anger management). Not only was he a care-taker but he also suffered from a degenerative neurological disorder BUT still, because he was male, he naturally felt less of a man because of the expectation of being the bread-winner or at least contributing to the family income…so he did things that made him look opportunistic (and my mother twisted this to fit her narrative) but in reality he was just trying to be many things and all the same time he was fighting his failing body. But my mother, because he was failing her as an appliance, essentially ditched him and made it look like she was the victim – because, of course, she’s always the victim.
So the women in my family used that narrative of strength and martydom to their own advantage AND bound people to them through sympathy etc…my father never asked anybody for anything – certainly not sympathy. He only wanted their respect and to be treated equal.
My father never asked me for a bloody thing – and he was the only one actually entitled to ask for help.
So you can see the source of my strong feelings on this – because women are not the only potential victims of such a belief.
Hello WhoCares, I really appreciate the truth in your posts. I feel the pain you endured and understand. I’m sorry for you loss too. It is so sad and frustrating to deal with a familial VMRN. Thank you for sharing your story. A Pegasus would certainly come in handy!
I personally don’t care for that bit of prose on the creation of woman. I’ll leave it at that.
I loathe a victim mentality (martyr syndrome). People who endure real pain (emotional or physical) naturally seek healing to put the pain in their rear view mirror. Narcissists with a victim mentality use false or perceived pain to manipulate others and elevate themselves. They thrive on it. It is painful and destructive for a child to be raised in this environment on so many levels. It is wrong; and in my opinion, a form of insidious abuse.
We all have choice and personal responsibility. The victim narc refuses to take personal responsibility for their own choices and behaviors. Instead they bemoan their ‘victimhood’ and proceed to blame and shame others in an attempt to manage facade, gain fuel and have others do their bidding.
There is a phenomena that exists in the rescue attempt of a drowning victim. The drowning person will do anything to get above water, including drowning the lifeguard by climbing on top of them.
A victim narcissist (VN) is not drowning, but will attempt to do the same if you let them. Nothing will ‘save’ the VN. So when a VN tries to drown you in their pity party or manipulate you to act, protect your own life instead. Remind your VN they already know how to swim and can choose to do so. No one can do the swimming for them.
I read an account of a real victim who had been brutally raped and beaten. The interviewer suggested she would never be able to overcome such an event. The victim replied, “No. I was only a victim in the moment of the crime. It took time to heal, yes, but I am no victim. No one has power over me unless I choose to give it, and that man does not deserve one more second of my life.”
Though different than the above account, because narcissistic abuse is often more insidious and socially accepted, the strength and outlook of the former victim applies.
You are strong and have a great heart, WhoCares. Protect it around those VN’s.
FYC,
Thank-you FYC. I think that the depth of damage that victim narcissist’s do is significantly underestimated – and I’m not trying to draw attention to my personal circumstances with that statement; because I believe it happens to more people than is immediately obvious – and the repercussions for the medical health system are probably staggering if the truth came to light.
The truth in this statement makes me ill to my stomach:
“There is a phenomena that exists in the rescue attempt of a drowning victim. The drowning person will do anything to get above water, including drowning the lifeguard by climbing on top of them.”
“A victim narcissist (VN) is not drowning, but will attempt to do the same if you let them. Nothing will ‘save’ the VN. So when a VN tries to drown you in their pity party or manipulate you to act, protect your own life instead. Remind your VN they already know how to swim and can choose to do so. No one can do the swimming for them.”
That second statement points to the crux of the problem – I believe that reminding that VNs that they already know how to swim is going to help in the short term – as they will go through the initial motions or say that they will ‘better’ themselves BUT because their MO is victimhood; the attempt will never have real results. In contrast – if you remind a true victim that they still know how to swim and can choose to do so; you will witness change and progress over time.
WhoCares,
I agree completely and sympathize with you. Your comment below is spot on:
“I believe…VNs …will go through the initial motions or say that they will ‘better’ themselves BUT because their MO is victimhood; the attempt will never have real results.”
The VN cycle always repeats. I meant keep yourself safe and don’t do their work for them. In fairness, I also keep a healthy distance as much as possible.
Thank you for sharing, WC. I hope you are enjoying your Easter. Best regards.
FYC,
“I meant keep yourself safe and don’t do their work for them. In fairness, I also keep a healthy distance as much as possible.”
Absolutely. Life-saving advice in those two mere sentences. I’m working on my resistance.
Thank-you for the Easter wishes…I’m having a lovely Easter long-weekend with my son: we’ve coloured eggs…the weather has been GORGEOUS enough for him and some friends to go coat-less – yet jump off the local play structure into leftover snow banks in the warm sun…we’ve had a mini-dance party…and today I think we’ll make bunny-shaped waffles. Naturally, there will be some indulging of chocolate as well.
Hope you’re having an excellent Easter weekend FYC. ♡
WhoCares, I’m so happy you had a such a lovely Easter weekend! I love that you shared the details. I could visualize and share in that joy. I too had a great weekend and thank you for your kind wishes.
When I first started adding distance, I felt guilty (I’m sure you understand this). As I became more comfortable, the VN became less so and increased their ploys. If it were not a parent that also has legitimate needs for assistance, and for whom I care, I would cut ties. HG’s point that the N cycle does not end until one person dies is so true.
The difficult part of being a child of a VMRN is, I did not know what they are until I read HG’s site. I paid a price for this former ignorance. I can never sufficiently express my gratitude for HG’s works. When I say it’s life changing, it’s not flattery, it is real.
Hg – Would a no contact ex IPPS who the MR discarded two years ago be suddenly remembered in a positive light?
That can happen, yes.
When God created woman he was working late on the 6th day…….
An angel came by and asked.” Why spend so much time on her?”
The lord answered. “Have you seen all the specifications I have to meet to shape her?”
She must function on all kinds of situations,
She must be able to embrace several kids at the same time,
Have a hug that can heal anything from a bruised knee to a broken heart,
She must do all this with only two hands,”She cures herself when sick and can work 18 hours a day”
THE ANGEL was impressed “Just two hands…..impossible!
And this is the standard model?”
The Angel came closer and touched the woman
“But you have made her so soft, Lord”.
“She is soft”, said the Lord,
“But I have made her strong. You can’t imagine what she can endure and overcome.”
“Can she think?” The Angel asked…
The Lord answered. “Not only can she think, she can reason and negotiate.”
The Angel touched her cheeks….
“Lord, it seems this creation is leaking! You have put too many burdens on her”
“She is not leaking…it is a tear” The Lord corrected the Angel…
“What’s it for?” Asked the Angel….. .
The Lord said. “Tears are her way of expressing her grief, her doubts, her love, her loneliness, her suffering and her pride.”…
This made a big impression on the Angel,
“Lord, you are a genius. You thought of everything.
A woman is indeed marvellous”
Lord said.”Indeed she is.
She has strength that amazes a man.
She can handle trouble and carry heavy burdens.
She holds happiness, love and opinions.
She smiles when she feels like screaming.
She sings when she feels like crying, cries when happy and laughs when afraid.
She fights for what she believes in.
Her love is unconditional.
Her heart is broken when a next-of-kin or a friend dies but she finds strength to get on with life”
The Angel asked: “So she is a perfect being?”
The lord replied: “No. She has just one drawback
She often forgets what she is worth.”
I suppose it demonstrates that he has a twisted sense of humour.
In the beginning they love anyone that loves them. And then the manipulations begin When they find it’s just not all rainbows and unicorns to stick in it with someone.
My mid range ex one night long ago-when I was trying to understand her and she was trying to explain her “blindness” Said “people tell me they love me and I don’t know what to do “……
That was a very telling statement to me- I didn’t know what to say… It was just more proof of a very damaged Psyche With no concept of their own self.… And still I persisted for a year or two more
Kate
Her statement was: I don’t know what to do. Empaths hear: I need help or someone to show me but don’t want to ask. You can help me. It’s natural that you understood her to be indicating that she would be open to help and of course that’s what we do -try to help. Dont be hard on yourself for it.
Hence why the fuel from a former IPPS is the most potent. We really are the gift that keeps on giving. All we need are paid royalties for these cameos and we’d be set for life.
But in spite of the fact that I’m still free around here writing comments, experimenting and informing me more and more about this demoniacal Pathology.
Well come be… everything for the ex, but inevitably she won’t leave your side. Because it simply does it to force her to generate her negative fuel, to which her narcissist is hooked.
My God, as I would have liked to know everything I know now. How much suffering and unpleasant experiences would have saved me.
But now, I see my narcissist and he is so far away, so far away in my emotional state, that it is a joy. I feel so detached, so well that it is surprising after so long.
One thing that happens to empathics is to be afraid of even stopping suffering or completely forgetting the love that was for the narcissist and that constant pain and anxiety. Maybe, we are or we become a bit masochistic. But when you finish the process absolute understanding and you see that the cause was the narcissist and his pathology. You are liberated.
You will always remember it but in a different way, without pain, without anxiety, with tranquility. You see that it doesn’t even matter if you try to hoover because you have understood that you are not interested in anything like this in your life. It already crawls behind you because you have killed, annihilated, disintegrated, pulverized, atomized that false love created by the narcissist and nothing remains of it.
It is when you can walk again with your head held high and a light step through life, with your small great treasure that the narcissist wanted to steal but I can not. Your self-esteem, the one he doesn’t have and one will have.
Thank you HG.
I am free…
It’s such a strange feeling, really new. It’s really amazing.
One thing I tell you, without you this would not be possible. Knowledge and understanding are the key to narcissistic prison. Nothing else liberates you. Putting you in their shoes and experiencing what they do and why? still makes the process much faster. Because one thing is to be told and another very different thing is to feel it and experience being a narcissist, or rather a false narcissist.
I wondered if the narcissist could falsify his reality and pretend to be what is not an empath. An empath can falsify his position as a narcissist. And the answer is Yes….. Because, all human beings have these traits.