We repeatedly provoke. The act of provocation is one which is designed to cause a strong and often unwelcome emotion in the recipient. On one level, it can be said that everything we do is provocative because we are always looking to cause you to be emotional, to react in an emotional fashion to what we do and as a consequence give us the fuel that we need. Thus when we tell you that we have finally found our soul mate, we are provoking you into generating an intense feeling of being loved (or at least thinking that you are being loved) which causes you to exhibit your love towards us and thus we gain our fuel. We pay a friend a compliment in order to provoke that person into at least thanking us, thus a small dollop of positive fuel or more hopefully (and indeed more likely because this empathic secondary source is well-mannered, honest and decent) we pay them a compliment so they will pay one to us and thus more fuel is garnered. There is no unconditional giving with our kind. We only give to receive.

Thus all of the things that we say and do, the manipulations, the chicanery, the machinations and the mind games are all designed to provoke you into giving us fuel. However, in its strictest sense, we provoke you in order to generate that intense response and one which is negative in nature. We provoke you so that you will explode in anger, erupt in a stream of profane insults and vent your frustration through a slap to the face or a mug hurled towards us.

We will push and push and push. Yes, many of you have a remarkable capacity to absorb these pointy sticks which jab you. Your kind are well-versed and skilled in the turning of the cheek, the adoption of the high ground and the making of allowances. You will bury the hatchet and we will dig it up again in order to give you a dig from the sharp point. You will let bygones be bygones and we will resurrect the memory of an age-old issue in order to rankle you.

Nothing is off limits in terms of provoking you. It might be focusing on a vulnerability of yours that we know about (having acquired this information when we seduced you) so that we remind you of a frightening episode from your childhood or capitalise on your terror of spiders. It might be homing in on your sensitivity about the size of your nose, the shape of your head, the bright red of your embarrassment. If you owe us money, we shall remind you of it and comment on your poor financial position. We may flirt because we know how much you hate the notion of us being unfaithful. We may repeatedly turn up late because you are an advocate of punctuality. We may criticise your parents, your choice of film, your culinary skills, your attempts to lose weight; whatever we have identified as a means for causing you to erupt at us we will do it.

We know which buttons to press. We have a knack and an instinct for doing so. This is because we are able to gather information about you when we seduce you which will be stored away and used against you at a later stage. This is also because empathic individuals are more likely to respond in an emotional fashion. Yes, you will soak it up at first by making allowances for our behaviour and indeed making excuses, exhibiting this selfless understanding for which you are famed. This will not dissuade us. We know that everybody has a limit of what they can take before they snap. Sometimes it is bursting into tears, running from the room or screaming. Other times it is exploding with a volley of curses, coming at us with flailing arms or shouting and screaming at the top of your voice about how awful we are.

Push, prod, niggle. Aggravate, rile, irritate. Ruffle, vex, bug. Irk incense and annoy. We will chip away at your defences, jabbing and poking as we look to make your blood boil, get on your nerves, get under your skin,  work you into lather and try your patience until you can take no more. We can sense the emotion rising in you. We notice the slight tells, the narrowing of the eyes, the rolling of the eyes, the sighs, the shake of the head, the hands on the hips, the raised palm, the jutting jaw and so on. The more you try to tell us that we are not getting to you, the more we are encouraged. We know that your emotion is building up inside of you. We know that it is increasing and no matter how much you are trying to maintain that cool exterior, we understand what is building up.

We not only have a medley of ways by which we provoke you, but we are experts in choosing precisely the best (worst) time to engage in this behaviour. Do any of these instances seem familiar?

When you are trying to get ready to go out.

When you are trying to have a telephone conversation with somebody else.

When you are trying to cook.

When you are trying to perform some chore.

When you are trying to get to sleep.

When you first come through the door after a long day.

When sat next to us in the car on a long journey.

When sat across from us in a restaurant.

When at some event of your choosing.

We will pick an inopportune time to commence our provocation so that you are caught off guard, when you are tired, when you are hungry, when you are anxious or stressed. The moment must be right for us and wholly inappropriate for you and then we can unleash the relevant form of provocation. We know what really gets to you. It may be the subject matter. It might be the way of conveying it, for instance patronising you or acting in a condescending fashion. It could be jabbing you with a finger on the shoulder to punctuate or words or giving you a dig in the back as you lie on your side in bed, after each savage sentence.

Eventually comes the eruption. You can only take so much and invariably when this provocation comes allied with an emotional state which makes you more susceptible to our provocations the explosion is all the more satisfying. Copious amounts of negative fuel fountain from you as you shout, scream, bang doors, slam your hand on the work top, swear and so forth. Inside we are soaring with the power that comes from the provision of this most excellent fuel. You, the paragon of virtue, the most patient of saints has been brought to boiling point and we achieved it. You have responded to our control. Our superiority is once again affirmed, we are the puppetmasters, we are omnipotent in our actions and you have responded as we wanted. Such marvellous fuel that sprays from you and we relish every drop.

Of course as it fountains and flows from you we will not want it to stop and the provocation will continue. Not only are we ensuring that we get to bathe in your overflowing fuel, we are using this eruption as evidence of how unhinged you are. Do not be surprised if this niggling, poking provocation occurs where others will see it. You can expect the whispered and insidious provocations to be used, the acts which are open to interpretation (although we both full well know exactly what was meant by our remark, our look or our gesture) and our good friend plausible deniability will be given an airing.

“Who me officer? I did nothing. She just exploded. I get this all the time, she has an anger management problem. John here will confirm she just went mental and started hitting me.” (Cue obliging Lieutenant).

“I don’t know what gets into her dad, she just erupts. You saw what she was like at mum’s birthday party. That is what I have to live with.”

“I feel sorry for you Mrs Johnson, having a daughter with a temper like that.”

We will provoke you. We will draw the delicious fuel that you will provide to us and then we will use your eruption against you as evidence of your unhinged mind, nasty temperament and unbalanced mental state.

Provocation is a mainstay of our behaviour. It comes in many forms, it is used in many different ways and on a range of occasions but its effects are always the same.

  1. The provision of a massive dose of negative fuel from a primary source;
  2. The exertion of control over you;
  3. The reinforcement of our image of superiority, lack of accountability and omnipotence;
  4. The creation of an emotional state in you which hampers your ability to think clearly and logically;
  5. The creation of a situation where you can later be made to feel guilty for erupting in the way you have at us;
  6. The manufacturing of a scenario which is used to reinforce our façade – we were calm and bewildered by this outburst.
  7. The manufacturing of a scenario which is used to smear you to third parties.

Provocation is a very useful tool to us. It is used extensively and repeatedly. Know why it is being used. Do not try to outlast it and exert your capability for patience, tolerance and understanding. You are just goading us to try harder. Remove yourself before your threshold is reached to avoid giving us points 1-7 above.

Provocation will always be used against you.

Anyway, who do you think you are looking at?

282 thoughts on “Provocation

  1. Another Cat says:

    Many thanks for your answer HG
    I have suspected this for a while. That the empath mistress/lover is the unluckiest mistress.

  2. Supernova DE says:

    Agree that having the male voice saying “hoes in this house” in the background was a bad choice. IF the song is meant to be about female sexual empowerment (I hope so?) then please make all the commentators female.
    Generally this song is not a surprise. I don’t even find it scandalous and I’m American, white, and politically conservative. I think the scandal/ attention is fabricated. The video is over done and typical of the music industry to get attention to a track.
    My pussy gets wet, I like it rough, and I’m not singing a song about it, but I can enjoy it in my running playlist without my kids around. #tolerance

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Supernova, Fiddleress, yes to both. I brought the topic up because I precisely thought it was a blatant provocation. I don’t care much about the song and I don’t believe it represents any women’s empowerment aside from the interpreter’s desire to talk about her private parts. I believe she plays with the expectation that people are gonna react. And I am a non-white, VERY liberal, queer, and dual-national American. I don’t find it scandalous and I don’t find it aesthetically pleasing either, just something to talk about. For running, though, I need a faster track. Fimmi Gyal is my choice this week but I like to change to keep me motivated, and Cardi B doesn’t make the cut. Any musical recommendations from other fellow runners would be greatly appreciated!

    2. Violetta says:

      “The whores in the house” line is a sample from an older song.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        “Intertextual allusions in Cardi B’s WAP.” Sounds like a good abstract proposal!

        1. Violetta says:

          During grad school, I spent an afternoon with a friend inventing paper titles for a “Scooby Seminar”: “Daphne: Lipstick Lesbian?” “Freddy and Rocky of Rocky Horror as Blond Bottoms,” etc. We were just punch-drunk and blowing off steam, but when she contacted a professor of pip culture at another university, he was interested. Should’ve followed up on it 😔

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m not surprised! I’m actually reading seminar proposals right now and some of them do not differ much from your invented titles. You never know! You definitely should have followed up! Anything Rocky Horror sounds gender-based scholarly to me…

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Take HG’s advice: Acheronta movebo. It works for anything.

  3. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG can misguided normals believe in conspiracy theories?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Oh that’s a relief! Thank you

  4. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Speaking of provocation. What do you think of Cardi B’s WAP? It had to be said, and it was said.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I only recognise cardi gan, this Cardi B strikes me as some kind of polyester based pretender.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        HAHAHA!!! Cardi Gan!

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Very elegant way of deflecting the more common tendency to ask what WAP stands for.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Wears A Petticoat

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            That’s exactly it!

          2. Violetta says:

            Nope, these folks are shiftless.

    2. Fiddleress says:

      I’m interested: I read something about this Cardi B’s WAP song/video in the British press a few days ago.
      Could someone explain to me what all the hype or controversy is about? I listened to it and was non-plussed. It’s hardly new to anyone (I hope) that women get wet down there and can greatly enjoy sex. Or is this not what the news is about?
      Thanks for any enlightenment!

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        For someone European nothing new under the sun. But from the Puritanical/sanctimonious cultural background prevalent in America, expressing that out loud is seen by many as vulgar, inappropriate, and gratuitous. It could be seen as a direct provocation as a marketing strategy which could be backed up by a relatively false sense of feminism, or not…I particularly don’t like the music of the song but don’t have absolutely any problem with talking about a wet pussy since we all come from one in the end, right? Long life to wet pussies!

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          -unless we are talking about cats, in which case, they don’t enjoy being wet too much-

        2. Fiddleress says:

          Thank you for your reply, SP! Yes, I see the point re puritanical America.

          I don’t like that music either, and did find the song kinda vulgar, but not because of what it said – rather the way it said it (and was annoyed at that “whore in the house” comment in the background, a male’s voice – unless this is a statement too, i.e. men seeing women who talk about wet pussies as whores? Not subtle, so much is true, but ‘whores’?!).

          Still, it seems to have kicked up a fuss. Not where I live, so far, but then, hey, you know… that’s the froggies for you, haha! And a sign that we are not (yet) thoroughly americanised!

        3. Kiki says:

          Long life to wet pussies , Hahaa I agree .


        4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear Sweetest Perfection,
          I heard, it could be a strategy ‘payback’ to all the male rappers downgrading women in their songs
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Dearest Bubbles, I find it incredibly sweet that you have continued to investigate after the first antagonistic reaction to it. I thought about that because most male rapers objectify women in their video clips (and in other genres too within the musical industry). Her strategy though seems as rudimentary as my narc’s attempts to hoover.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oops rappers, not rapers! The latter do objectify women even more.

        5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear Sweetest Perfection,
          Thank you lovely, you are too kind
          I have learnt a lot from Mr Tudor about decisions, perception, logic and being objective
          I try to assess situations better, without becoming reactionary and research as much as I can so as I’m better informed
          I don’t ‘dislike’ the video as it’s very colourful and the tune is catchy
          Cardi B chose ‘her’ way to empower women or payback her male competitors and also wanted to connect with her ‘real’ fans, apparently
          There’s a bit of controversy over whether the big cats were photoshopped or actually used
          Downgrading or empowering, it’s all a matter of perception
          As long as they leave “Baby, it’s cold outside”, “Rudolph, the red nose reindeer” Santa Baby” alone 😂
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Sweet Bubbles, “Rudolph, the red nose reindeer” is a favorite of mine. ❤️

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Sweetest Perfection,
            Aside from the controversy over the sexual connotations in two of the songs already, there’s bullying, ostracism and exclusion in Rudolph’s 🦌
            If it was released today, it would probably be banned 😱
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. Violetta says:

            If I were Rudolph, I’d tell Santa to cram it, after the way I was treated. Get thermal imaging, Fatboy.

          4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Violetta,
            Haha, that was funny
            Lets also not forget animal abuse by Santa and reindeer being used in Christmas parades
            The list is endless 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. Another Cat says:

            Written today it would have an extra verse. I can’t rhyme but:

            “No thank you, Santa! I ain’t using my bodyparts for your purposes! My body, my choice.”

    3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dearest Sweetest Perfection,
      After watching that, I asked myself
      “Was that really necessary” ?, forever pushing the envelope
      The things people do, just for money, how much is enough ?
      I am very surprised it’s no 1 on the top 100 in the states
      I think I’ll stick to Fred Astaire n Ginger Rogers
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  5. Kim e says:

    “You may have the Soft Cushion, buy K has…The Comfy Chair.”

    I am thinking this needs Rum and Coke and lots of buttered popcorn.

    1. Violetta says:

      Or Spam….Lobster Thermidor au Crevette with a Mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and Spam.

    2. K says:

      I do like a comfy chair.

  6. Renarde says:


    A long time.

    What EXACTLY is your back story?

    No one. Not one of us can go through this without becoming a tad ‘unhinged’.

    You dont share your story. I know nothing about you. But yet, every other big poster on here, I can recount some of their individual stories. But not you. Why?

    You come across a supercillious in nature. Not superior. Although someone popped that at you.

    I actually wonder if you exist. You are very possibly a sock.

    Tell us something unique about YOU!

    1. Another Cat says:

      Wait, NarcAngel has shared very much, Renarde,

      moving comments through the years. About the parent narc, a sibling narc, a brother-in-law, a former collegue, A Letter To The Narcissist, and many more comments I haven’t even had the chance to read.

      1. Another Cat says:

        I see now in the comments from last night that you left Narcsite. Makes me sad and hoping you reconsider after a break.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The comments demonstrate it has not happened. Again.

    2. Whitney says:

      Renarde I have a huge grasp of who Narc Angel is from reading one of her letters to the Narc and some of her touching comments, about her childhood. I feel like I know her more than anyone from the level of personal detail and the feelings she’s articulated.

  7. Leela says:

    But yeah, I wanted to compliment that pic anyway. Hilarious, awesome and fits the narc perfectly! This picture is at 2nd place among my favorite HG-blog-pics, 1st is still the little green Incredible-Sulk-guy! 😉 🙂

    H.G. you should make a calendar with those pics!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Perhaps I will.

      1. blackcoffee30 says:

        Please include the woman in the snow globe. TY

  8. Kiki says:

    Hg I just paid for a consult

    I’m seriously falling apart here

    My ET is gone crazy

    I’m blaming myself for being a stalker like other woman that’s what I am now

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Received and email sent to you.

    2. karmicoverload says:

      Me too, Kiki. Remember, you’re not alone. Let’s hope our consults sort us out.

      1. Kiki says:

        Yes I’m a bit nervous to be honest .
        Yikes how to chat with HG 🤔

        1. truthseeker6157 says:

          You could always imagine him naked ?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Or just talk, the nerves soon dissipate.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            “You could always imagine him naked ?”

            Haha. We can’t be sure that would result in the proper focus for consultation. Best to leave that to public speaking.

          3. Kiki says:

            Hahaa , poor HG will have to talk to me thinking I’m imagining him naked now .

            I promise I won’t think that HG , it will be all very civil , once I get over my initial embarrassment, nervous etc.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            It does not concern me if you are thinking that as long as you listen also.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hmmm? Sorry, was busy imagining.

          1. Z - zwartbolleke says:


        3. alexissmith2016 says:

          I do understand but you have nothing at all to be nervous about Kiki. He’s very gentle with us and knows how to make you relax in his company. You’re ET will be on a downward trajectory in no time at all.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you AS2016.

          2. duchessbea says:

            For some HG’s conduct in bed comes to mind. Hmmmm. Sorry HG. Awfully naughty of me. Then again…..

        4. Duchessbea says:

          Kiki, doll yourself up, when you look your best, you feel your best. Alternatively, you could sit their in your finest silkiest, lacy lingerie, silk stockings, black or red patent steel toed stilletos, riding crop held in firm grip and dominate that phone call. You can do it girl. Stay strong.

          1. Kiki says:

            Oh my , ladies you are so funny .
            Don’t be putting ideas in HGs head now , 😂 or mine hahaa.
            Although I’m sure he has lots of sexy ladies willing to dress up in naughty lingerie for him .😉

        5. Fiddleress says:

          I’ll second what Alexissmith said earlier: I can totally understand feeling nervous about talking to HG the first time, because I think most of us do, but you will feel comfortable in no time at all: HG knows how to make you (us) feel comfortable.

          I was in a state before my first consultation, I can tell you (very high ET, and as nervous as a school girl before a major exam), but I started feeling more relaxed about two minutes into the conversation thanks to HG.

          You can prepare a list of questions, I think it is recommended, and things you would like to talk about. This will help to start talking and feel more relaxed from the start.

          You (and the same goes for karmicoverload) have done the best thing you could do in booking your consultations. Experience talking!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Fiddleress

          2. HG is the ’empath whisperer’ 😉

    3. truthseeker6157 says:


      Honestly, you won’t be the first person to Facebook stalk someone or the last. Even if you stalked him in person to find answers, that’s not stalking. It’s more a ‘Covert Enquiry’ !

      You are beating yourself up. Please don’t do that x

      1. HG Tudor says:

        It is a breach of no contact, do not do it.

        1. truthseeker6157 says:

          I know HG, I’m not advocating Facebook stalking at all. There is only upset to be gained from it. Demonstrably so. I agree that Narc Detector then No Contact is the best route.

          Similarly, Kiki beating herself up will only escalate her ET and she doesn’t deserve to feel this way. My comment above was regards this, not as a suggestion in place of No Contact.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for the clarification.

          2. truthseeker6157 says:

            Thank you for reading it!

        2. blackcoffee30 says:

          I could not comment directly on that post, HG, but regarding: “most narcissist´s narcissism has not evolved to cater for collateral consequence” you’ve shared numerous examples with me here and during our consults. It’s mind-boggling. It’s absolutely true.

          Honestly, I would not have any of the information that I will need to implement my Plan if not for the fact that Ns do not think to lock down and lock up access to information.

          It also tickled me and made me smile when you guffawed at #2’s ridiculous website username. 😀

      2. Kiki says:

        Thanks you made me smile .

        I set up a fake account on a cheaters website AM .

        Maybe I’m a narc also , I planned it and I was drunk , got a dose of hell , what was I expecting

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          I’m glad I made you smile x

          Like Alexis says, now you move forward. No looking back, wishing you hadn’t done this or that. You are here, your understanding is growing day by day. This isn’t you getting sent back to square one. Step 1 the consult. Step 2 implement the consult. In the meantime, we are here in support. You’ll be ok Kiki, you will. X

        2. Supernova DE says:

          I set up fake profiles on several platforms trying to catch the MMRN out in my time….I think its just part of the ET. I never caught him on AM, though I tried. Glad to see you are slated for a consult soon! xoxo

          HG – when narcs are perusing profiles on cheating sites like AM, can they sniff out easily which profiles are also narcs and which are dirty empaths? And do they even care? I know narcs can utilize other narcs for virtual fuel, does that also apply to in-person affairs? Would a narc be less likely to contact another narc?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            The narcissist is more likely to identify the empath, as opposed to recognise the narcissists. Therefore it is more a case of “Hmm, this person appeals” (empath) “Hmm, not too interested in this person (other narcissist)” rather an actually knowing why.

          2. Kiki says:

            Dear Supernova

            It’s weird but I instinctively knew the profile was his.
            I still don’t know how , wording , tone maybe.


          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Here comes little Miss naive again. What is AM? Google won’t tell me.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Ashley Maddison

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Thought you were messing with me for a sec there. I’m thinking, ”Gawd who is Ashley Maddison.” Ha Ha

            Got it, thank you.

          6. Supernova DE says:

            I understand what you’re saying. How did you know for sure? Did he tell you his real name or switch to Kik and send a photo?
            I often *thought* I had found him by the tone, but I knew he would never put legit photos of himself on there, he’s way too paranoid. So it really was a fruitless effort. Didn’t stop me from trying multiple times! And I certainly interacted with other narcs in the process lol smh

            I felt just like you express here after I did so, totally panicked and disgusted with myself for how low I was stooping. I also felt hurt the time he interacted with me on a social media platform (I was using fake profile) and flirted though declined to meet in person. I felt quite insane, why was I doing that?

            You are OK, it will pass. I promise you. I still falter too, its all about three steps forward and two back. xoxo

          7. NarcAngel says:

            Don’t feel bad. I didn’t know either but got the context and assumed in addition to Prime, there now exists Amazon Mount. For those who want to cut straight to the chase and appreciate brevity.

          8. Kiki says:

            Hi Supernova

            How did I know it was him ?

            You see that’s the thing I can’t get my head around .

            Ok it’s very strange but it’s like I just knew.
            There must have been cues but I just got a gut feeling , maybe HG can explain what that is .
            It must have a logical explanation.
            Lots of very similar profiles but I got a niggle or a hunch and I was right.
            It wasn’t a wild guess I promise , it’s like I knew before I knew.
            I can’t explain it

            Maybe I should have been a detective hahaa

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:



            Thank you! I can get a bit embarrassed asking questions like that. Curiosity usually gets the better of me in the end though.

          10. blackcoffee30 says:

            At least some on AM have the sense not to use photos.

            Some use the black bar that blocks out the eyes, but is fooling no one. Others don’t have a profile pic, but if you click on the profile you can see their private photos. #sodumb #forreal

            As manipulative as Ns are they have huge blind spots sometimes.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            It is caused by the focus on the assertion of the control in the NOW without due regard for collateral consequence, because most narcissist´s narcissism has not evolved to cater for collateral consequence.

          12. Bibi says:

            I too had no idea what AM was and even moreso Ashley Madison. Why would someone want to use a site that admits they’re married? Wouldn’t empaths just naturally want to stay away? That’s just asking for trouble.

            It’s one thing if an empath is hooked AFTER the narc landed them, ‘Oh by the way, I am married…’ but to just walk into it willingly?

            I like dirty jokes, but man I am naive.

          13. Supernova DE says:

            Bibi and others,
            Regarding an empath using a cheating site, can I clarify and enlighten through my own story here…
            I would never in a million years have thought to go near a cheating site prior to being seduced by MMRN. I remember thinking that AM was a disgusting concept. But MMRN used it as a triangulation so I thought he had used/was using it (this could have been a lie, he is quite cerebral). Initially I found this gross about him and backed away, but since I’m an empath and was already bound, it didn’t last. Also I’m married myself and am a dirty empath, so I couldn’t really find fault in him….wasn’t I doing the same thing?
            I didn’t circle back to it for several years. MMRN shelved me quite without warning and I had no way to contact him. ET gets spun up predictably and before I know it I have a fake account on AM looking for him.
            I did not find MMRN on AM. But that site is so nasty I got soooo many messages from men. One guy in particular there was something about him…he was funny. Not rude like most of them, polite. I found I didn’t blow him off or ignore like all the others, I replied. A few back and forths…in retrospect this guy was a mid range somatic. He was so utterly different than ‘my’ MMRN, who is so cerebral and cold, I was sunk for a time. In the end he trailed off because I wouldn’t/couldn’t meet him in person. If I had been physically proximate to this guy I would have been in serious trouble.
            However, around the time this new somatic MMRN was embedding me as virtual IPSS, cerebral MMRN returns. Again, I act like a narc and triangulate the old MMRN with the new. This led to several months of near constant intense battles with the old cerebral MMRN. I was so narcy through all of it, using every type of trick he has used on me right back at him. Culmination was disengagement (pre-emptive I said I was going) and me finding narcsite.
            I have, at times, when ET was very high been tempted to go back to AM. I know I would find a narc to give me a hit there…such is my/our addiction. Typing this out is very embarrassing to admit, but I feel no real shame in any of it. I suppose that is my dirty empath streak coming to the fore.
            I am so grateful to HG for giving me the solid information to explain my own behaviors to myself, so that I can move on.

          14. Bibi says:

            Thank you for explaining, Supernova.

          15. NarcAngel says:

            Supernova DE

            Good of you to chart your path. Empaths are not saints, but I think it’s natural to wonder how one would end up on a site that is clearly advertised for “bored men and lonely housewives” since no one ends up there accidentally while ordering chicken from Costco.

            You get to it in the latter part of your post with “hit” and “addiction” (which we now know after learning about it here), but it’s interesting to see how easily emotional thinking can sneakily lead one to end up where they previously never believed they would. It’s easy for people to think ” oh, I would NEVER do this or that”, but then no one thought they would ever engage in the behaviours that brought them here either, whatever those behaviours might be.

          16. NarcAngel says:

            This is an interesting concept (at least to me) that has been raised. Phobia of commitment and yet suffering effects from the end of engagement? That seems contradictory on the face of it.

          17. Supernova DE says:

            Your question about commitment phobia vs disengagement distress really got me thinking and self analyzing. Here is what I came up with:
            I personally don’t identify as commitment phobic. However, I really believe that most people who do identify that way are not so much averse to commitment, but to intimacy and deep connection. I think the problems come at a point in a relationship when it is deepening, and that sets off a panic button for those of us that have learned to protect ourselves by not being vulnerable. If the relationship can float along with a sufficiently superficial vibe, I think a lot of people would be comfortable for longer. I think this is true for narcs who have fully avoidant attachment styles, or with BPD type attachment styles.
            I think that while it seems contradictory for an empath to fear intimacy, you can also easily see how a “sensitive” empath who has been hurt/abused/neglected over and over would create a wall to avoid further injury.

            BUT, those issues are entirely separate from the addiction to a narcissist. I only wanted something superficial from MMRN, but I was still nauseated and anxious for a couple days when it got cut off, that’s physical withdrawal. The emotional withdrawal lasts longer and is more subtle, as we all know. You do not need intimacy to be addicted.

            For myself I know that if any family member or close friend suddenly disappeared, I would not be phased. I might miss them but I would not be deeply emotionally affected. But I’m not addicted to them either.
            I’m honestly not even sure how distressed I would be if my husband suddenly up and left me. I love him dearly and he is absolutely the perfect man for me, but I know in my heart that a part of me would be relieved that I wasn’t expected to share so much, that I could do what I want when I want, that I didn’t have to live in fear of being hurt.

            Curious about your thoughts or anyone else’s on this.

          18. Leigh says:

            @Truthseeker, I had no clue what AM stood for either. I live in a bubble, lol. I’m so glad you asked!

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’ve asked worse on here. Yeah, let’s not go there ha ha !

      3. blackcoffee30 says:

        TS you speak the truth in your other comment regarding manipulation!

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Thank you BC.

          I have found the Narcissistic Perspective difficult to get to grips with. The logic bulletins have really helped, plus the articles on the subject. I’m starting to recognise behaviours more confidently now. It feels good.

          1. Bibi says:

            Kiki, join some groups that have similar hobbies and interests. Hiking, book club, museums, art festivals, volunteer work.

            For the amount of time on a dating site, you could be spending that time amid others in a club, all whom share similar interests. Opera? Ballet? Galleries? Wine tasting?

            Is there a grape stomp near you? Are they harvesting grapes? A camping excursion, etc.

            Your best bet of meeting someone is when you stop looking—and by exploring elsewhere, you could meet female friends and enhance yourself in the process.

            It is hard, but I feel that dating sites are too easy for a fix, and anyone can become someone else.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Sensible suggestions

        2. Kiki says:


          Thank you for this post .
          When AM was mentioned I think maybe a bit of judgement cropped up here.Thats understandable.

          I myself was just well curious , tired of idiots on other sites with zero manners , dic pics etc to have a look and got snared very quickly only by the one though.
          He was smart and I wanted to believe the lies.
          I rationalised that his marriage was cold .
          I’m also a bit of a commitment phobe and didn’t want full reality of a relationship.

          1. Supernova DE says:

            I totally understand the commitment phobe aspect. I also avoid intimacy in most situations and it was another huge reason I got in as deep as I did with MMRN. It felt safer (so odd I know) because on some level I knew it wasn’t real.

          2. Another Cat says:

            Supernova, Kiki, Bibi

            I didn’t want to place judgment on infidelity, we have all fed our addiction of narcissists in our past, in our own ways,

            but I was thinking HG would probably say those online sites are a cesspit of narcissist profiles, and those are hunting for…. empaths. So it’s a place for abuse. I gather.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            See Why You Should Not Use Online Dating – analysed and addressed some time ago, AC

          4. blackcoffee30 says:

            I was a DE/MB/DLS. I knew the situation going in and was in my own troubled marriage. I have narcissistic tendencies and my empathy can swiftly be reduced in certain situations. I own it. Empaths are not angels.

            I do not judge others.

          5. Kiki says:


            It is very hard when you hit a certain age , late 30s. friends are all married etc .
            Social circles are full of the married .
            Less time to socialise due to work etc.
            It’s very hard not to be drawn into online dating sites.
            My chances of meeting a single sane guy in real life are extremely slim now
            What do I do ?
            Honestly what do us women do in such a situation .


          6. HG Tudor says:

            There are many, many ways to meet people. You do so through real-life engagement and not through a dating sight. The chances of meeting someone sane and single are higher through real life engagement than on a dating website.

          7. Supernova DE says:

            I hear you. My marriage wasn’t/isn’t even troubled and I practically seduced myself into IPSS position with the long-term cerebral MMRN.
            Sometimes the dirty streaks are strong. xo

          8. Kiki says:

            Yes BlackCoffe and Supernova

            Sometimes you never know what path you end up.
            My dirty streak is definitely there .
            Sometimes I wonder do I search out the narcs too not just the narcs sniffing out the empaths.


          9. blackcoffee30 says:


            In 1958, McCalls magazine published an article, “129 Ways to Get a Husband.” Some gems include:

            Read the obituaries to find eligible widowers.
            Get lost at football games.
            Don’t be afraid to associate with more attractive girls; they may have some leftovers.
            Learn to paint. Set up easel outside engineering school.
            When you are with him, order your steak rare. (Wut?)
            Go to Yale.

            Hahahaha On the real tho, a handful of their suggestions are good. Otherwise, everyone here had some great suggestions. The key is just getting out of the house with the right mindset.

          10. Kiki says:

            Regards Commitment phobe , you hit the nail on the head Supernova

            For me it’s a deep fear of being hurt and rejected even though that’s already happening.
            I had a disaster marriage
            It’s fear that if a man sees me as myself , sitting in my scruffy pjs , he will get bored and reject me.
            The whole AM thing was counter that fear.
            I could create my own fantasyland of what I wanted to be .
            Which was not really me.
            Jeez I sound so fucked up.


    4. alexissmith2016 says:

      You’re definitely not a stalker Kiki. Not at all. Please don’t ever think that, it will continue to feed your ET. We’ve all made mistakes. None of us are perfect. you’re not doing this with any malice, more desperation because you’re ET is telling you it will help. You’ve done the right thing booking a consult. HG will help you to get that back under control.

      But don’t think bad of yourself. this is about moving forwards. forget about what you have done in the past because that is exactly where it is, in the past.

      1. Another Cat says:

        Bibi wrote
        “Wouldn’t empaths just naturally want to stay away?”

        Same thought as you. I think it’s extremely rare for an empath to go on a site like that. It’s for narcs and some normals maybe. The very thought of it makes me tired. But I can imagine the abuse from a narcissist can cause empaths to search for their narc over there, just like Kiki’s situation.

        I’m glad you get the consultation, Kiki.

        1. Bibi says:

          Agree, Cat.

          The chances of anyone landing someone of substance on a cheating site–one that advertises itself as such, no less–is pretty much 0%.

          Tinder and all those crap sites are hard enough, but while they too are brimming with narcs, they don’t advertise themselves as a cheating site. Thus far I know of only one couple who met Via Tinder and worked out and they’re a gay couple.

          The Somatic Lesser landed his current wife on Tinder and married her after 4 months while he was cheating with the mother of his kid. I’m sure that will work out.

          Healthy relationships do not spawn from lies and deceit.

          ‘So where did you meet?’
          ‘Oh, on a cheating website.’
          ‘Sounds romantic!’

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Dating sites are run for one thing and one thing only.

          2. Another Cat says:

            Exactly, well put.

            I figure the only mistress who is able to become a Nonnarc man’s main squeeze
            ( = he leaves his wife) is a narc mistress. Angelina Jolie, Camilla Parker Bowles.

          3. Violetta says:

            Another Cat:

            Chucky’s a Narc too. Another sterling product of Gordonstoun.

          4. Kiki says:

            Not really
            It depends on life circumstances and the situation.
            I can totally see your view point but there are others not everything is cut and dried.
            Empath doesn’t want to get hurt , goes on such site thinking it won’t hurt.
            Men generally are more mature and generous and Kind .Well some .
            Different dynamic from normal dating this is what gives the false sense of security
            Not lets get your knickers off for a pint and bag of crisps in the local pub , but I’m still going to shag another girl next week.
            There is more wowing , more effort .

            I can’t really describe it unless you were in my shoes


          5. NarcAngel says:

            “Dating sites are run for one thing and one thing only.

            You are so jaded HG!
            Nothing spells happiness like cash and nudes.

          6. Another Cat says:

            Curious, HG
            isn’t it true then, that for someone to leave their spouse/wife for the mistress, then either he or the mistress is a Narc?

            So that a Nonnarc husband will not leave his wife for a Nonnarc mistress (even though their affair might be going on for some time)?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Most of the time, although you could have a situation involving two normals.

    5. Kiki says:

      I remember when I was in this thing before , I was shattered, stopped all my dance training could hardly lift myself off the couch before I found HG .I just wanted to crawl away.It left it’s scars .
      I cried , became withdrawn, gained a stone without eatingmuch prob the alcohol.

      I can’t go there again yet Feel it I’m back to work soon and it’s a tough competitive place with several narcs , I don’t think I can deal with it with this .

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:


        You are panicking and you are running different problems together to make one confusing seemingly insurmountable problem. That’s your ET. It’s foggy and you can’t see the direction to take. Breathe. It’s ok. Tackle each problem individually. List out your concerns so you don’t forget them during consultation. HG can then advise on each concern. He isn’t foggy.

        Try to relax, take a long bath, go for a walk outside if you can. Cry if it helps. But make your list. You’ll feel better once you have that. You’ll focus better and have more control. Its productive and enables your consultation to be more targeted. HG can then best help where help is needed.

        There is no reason to give up dance or gain weight. The narc has no control over that. You have control over that. You were able to deal with the idea of going back to work before. That hasn’t changed. Your ET is conning you to make you panic and turn to the narc for support. He is not your support. We are.

        Try to get outside, walk, run clear your head if you can. Then, make your list. Leave it where you can add to it. Prepare yourself for an effective consultation. That’s all you need to focus on just now. The rest will fall into place so you feel better able to cope. Break it down, step by step.

      2. Kiki says:

        I don’t think Camilla was a narc
        I think Diana was one.

        1. Eternity says:

          Kiki, not sure but I think it is the other way around.

        2. blackcoffee30 says:

          No way, no how!

          1. Violetta says:

            I think HG has said Diana went into supernova after years of Chucky’s narciness. Not sure if he’s put Camilla under the ‘scope.
            Whatever Camilla is, she threw expert shade on the Markle woman.

          2. FYC says:

            I can’t find the quote, but HG has stated both Camilla and Charles are narcissists.

            HG, Please comment if I am not recollecting this accurately.

        3. blackcoffee30 says:

          To be clear, my comment, “No way, no how!” was in reference to Diana. She is an empath, plain as day.

      3. alexine99 says:

        Kiki if you are able… throw yourself into your dance/art. You don’t have to go back into this hole.You are so much more than this louse. If you are in your late 30’s you are far from being ‘done’.
        I hope the weight of it all lifts for you soon.

    6. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dearest Kiki,
      You’re not a stalker, narc, joke, hypocrite nor rule breaker …… you’re a gorgeous female with an enormously big beautiful heart who’s going thru a triggered, temporary, emotional setback
      Acknowledging, understanding and acceptance of what’s going on with your narc is paramount, otherwise your heart will keep yearning and seeking answers to all the why’s ?
      Sometimes we don’t get all the answers we desperately crave (there is no closure) and that’s something we just have to accept and move on, otherwise it’s a road to self destruction and misery
      You also can’t worry about things you have no control over (we need to let that one to sink in as well)
      Logic rationalisation, however difficult, is imperative and crucial to us, is very achievable

      Confirming what you already know about him to be true, is emotionally unhealthy and damaging
      Being heartbroken, is just devastating, we’ve all been there, time heals wounds. It’s part of one’s life’s journey and maturing experiences
      You do have the strength Kiki, you’re a ballet dancer and ballet dancers never give up
      The strongest being the ‘solo’ performance
      You’ve got this and you’ve got us
      See you at the other end of Mr Tudor’s consult 😉
      Take care lovely and huge hugs 🤗
      Luv Bubbles 🍾

      1. Kiki says:

        Awwh thank you Bubbles .

        I’m not an actual professional dancer ,
        just enjoy ballet for fitness and fun , it’s great .
        My profession is sciences.
        I can’t understand what the niggle is , then I went poking ,
        It’s like I only hurt myself doing this , what is the saying Lies don’t wreck relationships the truth does.
        I’m rationalising here and slipping into blissful denial .
        The truth hurts , why can’t we pretend or be in blissful ignorance.
        I was always a curious thing , if something didn’t fit in a puzzle I’d spend days until I figured it out .
        Figuring things out with a narc is not fun .
        I burned myself poking around doing something I shouldn’t have .
        Who is wrong here , I am for snooping about on a guy who isn’t even mine.
        Maybe he is a sex addict or something, or addicted to the thrill of the unknown.
        Have I right to stop that.
        I sound pathetic I know .

        It’s so hard as he does help and support me in emotional ways .


        1. Violetta says:

          Kiki, if you haven’t already, please start doing Barre regularly even if you’re not up to an entire practice with center work. I don’t know how many times having to concentrate on shifting weight or my extension saved whatever passes for my sanity. One time when I was already an adult living in NYC, my dad had got violent when I was home for a visit. I had to do the old routine of getting the cops from a pay phone, than did a rush pack to go back to NYC early. Then there was dealing with what I now realize were my mother’s phoned Hoovers (“Your brother will be here next time; you’ll be perfectly safe,” etc.). For days I walked around Manhattan three feet to the left of my body, watching it move as I went to temp jobs and rehearsals. It wasn’t until I took a class at Steps@74th and found myself checking my turnout on a developpe that I realized I was back in my body. (I was never much of a dancer, but being an actress with dance training allowed me to do more shows as well as being something I just loved.)

          HG has consistently recommended exercise as a means of decreasing stress and distracting us from thoughts of the narc abuser, both of which will help to lower ET. Some people jog, there are a few horseback riders on here, and if dancing helps you feel like YOU, then do it.

          Are you familiar with Zena Rommet’s floor Barre exercises? They might help you to calm down before your consult.

          1. Kiki says:

            Hi thank you Violetta

            Yes I adore barre Hahaa , ramped up my routine lately , it was great but of course takes time.
            Yes deep stretching is soo powerfully relaxing also.
            No I don’t run ,or play contact sport , always hating sports that involve catching a ball that comes hurtling at your face 😊 walking is nice but I find I begin ruminating.
            The concentration on correct form , especially moving from , a la second ,deviant , derrière to stop rolling in keeps me from thinking about other things.

            Oh a nice developee , such a beautiful move , that takes serious strength and suppleness .
            You must be a good dancer .😊😊😊



        2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Kiki,
          Ballet requires ‘discipline’, that quality you already have
          I understand your curiosity as a scientist, I know someone who does forensic, he’s the same, he can’t relax til his curiosity is fulfilled
          There’s another old saying as well Kiki, ‘curiosity killed the cat’, it certainly does not make you pathetic

          Knowing he’s a narc, why dig deeper and pursue an avenue that is ‘not fun’ and one that keeps you in a never ending spiral ?
          Self flagellation, for us women is ripe enough already, without adding further hurt into the quasion over a narcissist who will never allow you to know the truth, ever
          I’m actually quite staggered at the number of self put downs you have already allotted yourself my lovely, that has got to stop right this minute, otherwise there is no going foward
          Without ‘trust’ Kiki, you’ll forever be searching for the truth
          Now where’s your ballet slippers Kiki ? 👯
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          Ps … If anyone if interested in something to watch, we have just finished
          “Why Women Kill” with Lucy Liu , plus
          “The Fall” with Gillian Anderson

          Excellent viewing 😉

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Don’t bother with The Fall, Gillian Anderson’s character is incompetent to such a degree you won’t be able to suspend your disbelief.

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Mr Tudor,
            😩 Noooooo
            I’m a female, I liked her
            She is pretty though and has lovely hair n legs 🙃
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Balls to that when her sheer incompetence as a police officer caused me to stop watching.

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ha ha Bubbles!

            I am still watching, though I do now know what HG means. Incompetence, yes, see your point. She turned too girly, went all weak on us. That disappointed me more. I preferred her cold and kick ass! I am still watching though because the babysitter is cray cray and does it very very well. Plus, we’ll it’s Jamie Dornan isn’t it?

            HG, I’m sure you would enjoy the tv series Hannibal. Characters in this stay true throughout.

            God’s terrific. He dropped a church roof on 34 of his worshipers last Friday night in Texas, while they sang a hymn.

            Will Graham:
            Did God feel good about that?

            Hannibal Lecter:
            He felt powerful.

            Brilliant series!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            It was more to do with her lack of judgement re shagging the other copper and that pathetic scene where she sees Dornan´s car in the lane and just watches him reverse away. Terrible.

            I shall have to look into Hannibal, that snippet is accurate about the dynamic.

          6. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Mr Tudor,
            It’s only a Netflix series, just fluffed up for entertainment only
            I was more interested in the killer husband’s behaviour (Mr 50 shades of grey)
            However, I can appreciate and understand your detail for accuracy
            Perhaps “Why Women Kill”? (a darkly comedic drama) may be more appealing 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear truthseeker,
            Yes, she did go weak, the script writers obviously wanted her to have some ‘feelings’ to appease to the masses
            It rated 84% on rotten tomatoes and 8.2/10 on IMDb
            I do agree with Mr Tudor’s comment about her watching the car reverse away, that was pathetic and so was the shooting scene where Spector was shot
            Her diary was her vulnerability and that kinda went a bit haywire
            It was entertaining nevertheless, she’s also in the Sex Education series

            We are already into a few episodes of Hannibal, looks good 😊
            I also just like watching for behavioural observation purposes 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ooh Bubbles, I can’t wait for you to watch more of it then we can discuss the character traits!
            The filming of it is just beautiful, the visual metaphors I love. It is graphic though Bubbles, prepare Mr Bubbles for that. Ha ha.

            Will is described as having ‘pure empathy’. I’m not sure if that is possible. I’m not sure someone could function with 100% empathic traits. We need Will to take the Trait Detector Consult!

            HG could someone score 100% for empathic traits with your TDC? How likely would it be for this to happen?

          9. HG Tudor says:


          10. Z - zwartbolleke says:

            HGT: “I shall have to look into Hannibal, that snippet is accurate about the dynamic.”

            Djees, I wonder who writes such brilliant lines, better watch that series quick Mr Tudor, hahaha!

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:


            That makes sense. Thank you for answering.

          12. duchessbea says:

            Anything with Jamie Dornan is always a good watch. I liked The Fall. Very well put together.

          13. Bibi says:

            I don’t subscribe to NF so I don’t know the show, but it sounds like Gillian’s character is the anti-Scully.

            What a great dynamic they had, with Scully the skeptic and yet Mulder the believer who is always right. I miss the X-Files.

          14. Bibi says:

            And to followup, so I watched a trailer for The Fall (never heard of it, again I unsubbed from NF yrs ago) but the whole bedding the cop is ridiculous. This is why I don’t watch cop shows. Trying very hard to make it a mystery/romance/whodunit.

            See, this is what made the X-Files a great show–the dynamic b/t Mulder and Scully, where they had a great chemistry and even an underlining sexual attraction (possibly) that is never crossed because they are professionals. Had that happened, it would have ruined the show.

            The great working chemistry b/t them–how they balanced each other out, coupled with the writing, made that show work so well.

          15. NarcAngel says:


            Spector gets shot???!!! Spoiler alert people!!

            Just kidding – never watched it. This was a test to see if you defaulted to empath guilt for a second haha.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            Bruce Willis is a ghost by the way.

          17. NarcAngel says:

            BW a ghost?

            You truly ARE evil HG!

            You just wanted to remind me of my Six Cents joke fail.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            Oh and Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker’s father.

          19. NarcAngel says:

            Darth is……


            Oh wait…… that’s Star Wars so I don’t care. Couldn’t make it all the way through that low budget sleep fest anyway.

          20. HG Tudor says:

            Tonight fight fans I bring you K v NA !

          21. NarcAngel says:


            Let’s get ready to rumble!

            Fair warning: I have a pillow as a weapon and it can smother the force out of anything.

          22. Violetta says:


            You may have the Soft Cushion, buy K has…The Comfy Chair.

          23. Bibi says:

            Rosebud is the sled.

          24. Violetta says:

            London cabbie who thinks the tip was too small: “It’s that ‘ere detective what did it, guv.”

          25. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear NarcAngel,
            We all know everyone usually gets shot at in police dramas
            Bad guys never die easy, they seem to have nine lives
            But did he die, or not ? Uhhh huh
            That’s the question
            Have to watch it to the end to find out 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          26. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear truthseeker,
            Thank you for the heads up
            Mr Bubbles isn’t really kinda excited about it, I can tell, but we always have a little bo peep at most things, it’s 39 episodes, I’m not sure he’ll make the distance, he prefers his sport and docos haha
            Will is definitely special, Hannibal thinks so too, however I’m going to 🤐
            I’ve read write ups
            Stay tuned
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          27. NarcAngel says:

            Wow. I have seen that movie and still drew a blank when you mentioned it, but now I want to watch it again.

          28. Bibi says:


            It’s a definite great one. I very much enjoy that film.

            HG, your voice reminds me of Orson’s in some regard. You both have a very deep and commanding way with words and can speak off the cuff so intelligently–easily bridging connections among things. You have that sort of strong presence.

    7. FYC says:

      Kiki, When preparing to speak with someone you have not spoken with before, it is helpful to imagine (in detail or even audibly speak out) your part of the conversation before the real interaction. Consider what you wish to cover. Have three central questions/points you can return to, should the conversation take you down an unplanned, yet fruitful path. I say this, because you will want to walk away with the answers to your most important questions. Prior to the call, choose your environment for the call to reduce distractions and aide your comfort. Structure your environment as this give a sense of control which reduces performance anxiety. Consider HG as someone you already know. You have interacted many times, I would imagine by voice it will be far easier for you. You are not a stalker. You are just two people having a conversation about whatever is important to you. You will be absolutely fine.

      1. Kiki says:

        Thank you 😊

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Kiki, I feel like the white rabbit in Alice in Wonderland always being late to comments, I don’t know if your appointment already took place. But I wanted you to know that the times I have spoken with HG I was shaking in panic waiting for his call -Skype-. I am sure he could probably feel it. As soon as we start talking he always makes me laugh. He listens to the whole story and then explains things very well, letting you see his perspective. He doesn’t judge. You will be great don’t worry, he will help you tons. I recommend taking notes, that’s what I always do. I like making lists and even draw a graphic of the situation.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you SP

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            No, thanks to you. There was one comment about ULs you said during one consultation that still makes me giggle.

  9. Eternity says:

    This article proves how the Narcissist always tries and provokes a reaction from us always at the wrong time. Makes me want to explode and tell him how I really feel but then I am the crazy one. It’s just not worth it and no point in the end.

  10. Kiki says:


    I need to book an audio consult with you this Thursday, and I hope we can have it as soon as possible.
    I’m dying inside right now.
    I broke every rule , the Narc , I just blew his cover as a serial cheater .
    I sound like such a hypocrite, but I set up a fake profile and caught him on AM
    I’m not even the wife .
    This was long long term affair .I feel like a stalker but I had to know .


    1. HG Tudor says:

      Sooner you book the sooner I will help you, Kiki.

      1. blackcoffee30 says:

        I was (am) you Kiki. I haven’t blown his cover, but I’ve been where you are. He was (is) on AM. HG will show you the way. Set yourself free.

        All my love, XO.

        1. Kiki says:

          Oh black coffee

          His messages were the same as the ones he used on me .

          I feel ripped apart but I knew ,
          The cold wife , no appreciation, I gave him my heart and soul , yet he still spins the BS on AM

          His wife must be innocent, I deserve this

          1. blackcoffee30 says:

            Oh love, you are in the emotional sea, but we will help you cross it.

            “His messages were the same as the ones he used on me.” Narcs will narc. Don’t take it personally. Know you are valuable and loved.

            “I feel ripped apart but I knew” I knew too, but I lied to myself to stay in the relationship and avoid the pain of betrayal.

            “The cold wife, no appreciation, I gave him my heart and soul, yet he still spins the BS on AM” It’s time to focus on you. Only you. He made so many promises to me too, for years, all lies. Let it go for now and focus on you.

            “His wife must be innocent” She is a victim too, but she also knows the truth in her heart and turns a blind eye. She knows what admitting the truth will hurt. Where does she think he is when out until 12am on a weeknight or Saturday afternoon and returning home smelling of soap? Put that to rest. That’s her journey, not yours. You can be free.

            “I deserve this” You do not “deserve” this. I do not judge you. I understand. Be kind to yourself. Reach out here, and I will support you. Just remember that you need logic and knowledge to get through it. Logic is the only way.

            There is nothing for you in the past. XO

          2. NarcAngel says:

            You don’t deserve it. No one does, but the truth of what he is and does has now been laid bare for you to see and you all deserve better. I’m glad you’re having a consult with HG. Take care.

      2. Kiki says:

        Thank you HG , I will pay tomorrow
        I can’t take the way I’m feeling I think I’m going down into a black hole

        Why did I decide to go poking, he did this before prob all the time , but I needed his friendship, support.

        I though I was free last year , the Narc is angry now and I’m being put into silent treatment or discard.
        I also feel like a stalker but I had to know my gut was niggling

        The sexual messages he sent to the fake profile , yet contacts me all the time .
        I know I’m a joke 🥺🥺
        I had a narc detector done on him 3 years ago HG , I was free .
        I have no more strength in me

        1. karmicoverload says:

          You will find that strength from somewhere Kiki. You must.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Yes you do have strength Kiki x

          You have strength because you came here, admitted you played it wrong and asked HG to help get you back on track. Yes, you have strength.

          It’s horrible to be faced with the truth that way. HG tries to spare us that. On the upside though you know now. You absolutely, categorically 100% know exactly who you are dealing with. There is no need now to question, to check, double check, it’s done.

          You don’t deserve this Kiki. We’ve all been taken in and we disregarded the signs and warnings all in a variation of the way you did. You’ve had your heart ripped out, now it’s time to cut him out in entirety. Don’t look back.

          I’m so sorry you are where you are now. One step at a time. HG has got you, we’ve got you, you aren’t on your own Kiki. Get up and fight x

        3. Violetta says:

          If you had no strength, you’d still be in denial and making excuses for him. You are tough enough to see what he is.

        4. Kiki says:

          Thank you everyone

          Why doI feel like the crazy one today.
          A snooping stalker or something
          I had a niggle , and just tried that site , yes I met him on it years ago.
          I saw what was like a profile he would write.
          Am I psychic or something
          The profile was active within the last 48 hours .
          I favourited it and two nights later , he responded.
          I went crazy when I knew it was him .
          His only response was that he is never on that site but he knew it was me .
          I feel like a stalker
          Please someone hit me with some logic.
          It was 4 years since I went on that site and there was his profile
          Could he be telling the truth or am I insane


          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I hate to tell you this, but it doesn’t matter if he was lying or not. He is a narcissist. He will bring you a world of pain. You know this lovely.

            Given that he is a narcissist, and having recently listened to one of HG’s logic bulletins, the answer is, you are being Manipulated. He has selected the first line of defence, which is denial. He will stick with denial until he believes it isn’t working, at which point he will switch to his second line of narcissistic defence which is ‘any other manipulation.’

            If he is a narcissist Kiki, then he is manipulating you and not to be trusted. GOSO !

          2. Bibi says:

            Kiki, I read your comments and they reminded me of myself years ago. I too believed I was a stalker (he played the victim and said I was obsessed with him).

            My situation involved an online person, so at the end he was trying to distance himself–as though our 7 yr correspondence was merely nothing more than ‘online acquaintances,’ like someone who would casually follow you on Twitter and nothing more. So there was definitely some gaslighting there–did I imagine it all?

            Developing this for someone I corresponded with? What a loser I must be! (I used to think this.)

            I had very similar feelings–I am a creeper, a stalker and crying over it. But seriously, how many true stalkers cry over being one? They will either hide it or deny it, but never cry over it.

            I had a lot to sort out, and for 1st year after NC, I still believed I was the problem (I knew he was emotionally unhinged in some way but I believed I triggered that in him–why did I make him so angry?)

            So I was seeking sources online–therapy about overcoming heartache and emotional dependency and ‘neediness’, without even realizing what he was.

            When I read HG’s description of Mid Ranger and their victim playing, and coupled with reading others’ stories I began to realize maybe I wasn’t so crazy after all.

            Go easy on yourself. You’re still healing. No one can claim to know everything you are feeling, but I have felt similarly and pulled through.

    2. Empath007 says:

      Awe Kiki, I feel your pain when you write out your feelings 😞 we’ve all been there…. when depression rears its ugly head, it’s like an unstoppable force. Go easy on yourself ❤️

    3. Empath007 says:

      I keep seeing you write you feel bad your a stalker… while I’m not encouraging you to go about such activities, we live in the age of the internet… everyone is a stalker lol.

      When resumes come across my desk, if I’m interested in interviewing them… I head to the good old internet to get more information. doesn’t every employer ??

      The difference is what you did breached no contact. If it makes you feel and better…. I’m 2 years out and I still spy on mine. Pathetic ? Sure. Waste of time ? Most definitely. Helpful ? Not really. But I try not to beat myself up. For Christ sake I have no other vices in life 😂 haha. I don’t even drink coffee !! So I spy on my ex. He does the same thing to me too… if he didn’t his stupid friends wouldn’t still call to “check in on me”.

      Basically the point of this is to say …. you’re not alone. We all act pathetic sometimes lol. Don’t be so hard on yourself ❤️

  11. Asp Emp says:

    The deliberate ‘evasions’ of the narcissist – he knew what he was doing. He wanted me to lose my temper so that he could turn round and say that I got angry for ‘no valid reason’. It was all a ploy to him. He was pushing and pushing with his small but selfish comments. Add them all up = supanova. Then he acts all ‘upset’ and backtracking – absolute and utter BS.

    I must NOT let him in my mind and not permit my ET to start increasing it’s levels. But he is still a b’tard.

  12. blackrose1286 says:

    I am always on edge because of the poking. I have been able to control my response but now it is him using family. I just purchased getting out and I will be reading it tonight. Thank you HG

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome and HG approves. Should you require further assistance, do arrange a consultation.

      1. blackrose1286 says:

        Thank you I think I probably will need to once I can.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I will give you the most effective assistance.

          1. blackrose1286 says:

            I am positive that you will.

  13. Leela says:

    Hey, we don´t wanna forget about the nice gas lighting afterwards 😉

    “You´re over-reacting. AGAIN!” 😉
    “You´re reading too much into the situation”
    “You´re too sensitive”
    “It was only a joke”
    “Didn´t know that it hurts you that much”
    “Oh I´m sorry, didn´t know that it hurts you so badly, I won´t do it again. I promise” (yeah, sure! 😉 )
    “Can´t you take a joke?”

    Provocation – gas lighting – provocation – gas lighting. Same procedure as every day 😉

    1. Renarde says:


      Attack is the best form of defence.

      Two middle fingers up. Honestly, unaware narcs cannot deal.



      1. HG Tudor says:

        No contact is the best form of defence. Sticking two fingers up at a narcissist is a breach of no contact and invites the various prongs of The Devil´s Pitchfork, see Halting the Hurt. It is far more effective to implement and maintain no contact for a long list of reasons I have previously advanced.

        1. Renarde says:

          Oh yes yes. Totes agree.

          But let’s have some funny times

          1. HG Tudor says:

            If you agree, why then advance a contrary approach before I expiate the correct approach?

          2. Renarde says:


            Cos I’m fucking with you.

            P.S You’re still a genious x

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Congratulations on giving incorrect advice to another reader in the name of fucking with me.

          4. Renarde says:

            Now now.

            You give correct advice. Which is welcomed.

            I’m sure the young lass can read between the lines.

            You are so norty! X

      2. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Ren, are you okay sweetie? You don’t quite seem yourself? Xxx

        1. Renarde says:

          I’m ok love. Thank you for asking.

          I’ve had to deal with a lot of stuff. Family

          I’ve been very naughty with Hg which he has given in good spirits. Very good indeed. Good sort. Well done that man x

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Awww I’m pleased you’re okay. Sorry you have a lot on your plate at the moment.

            Good to know HG has taken your naughtiness in good spirits. And glad you’re back xxx

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Have I? Where?

          3. Violetta says:

            Glad you’re back. You were missed.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Back? Never went away.

          5. Violetta says:


            I meant Renarde, who had said she was leaving. I knew you were coming back, although of course you’re still missed when you step away from the site.

            How’s Lisbon?

          6. HG Tudor says:

            I knew who you meant and that was who my response referred to.

          7. Renarde says:

            Yeah, how’s Lisbon, Hg?

            Did you get drunk on the sherry?

          8. alexissmith2016 says:

            “Have I? Where?” oh god – you crack me up!

            Well Ren said so it must be true.

          9. HG Tudor says:


          10. Renarde says:



            Gosh, Boss is grumpy today

            Someone must have pinched his bagel.

            It’s either that or he got a U in his English Lit recently. I mean Oxford? He’s on a promise for the University of Motorway Services. Warwick. Where he’s about to do his degree in Medja Studeezzz. Or he was until he tanked. That’ll teach him to piss off his teachers.

            Never mind Hg. Not everyone can attend three Russell Groups. I still love you.

            Ren. FRAS

          11. alexissmith2016 says:

            hahah oh dear. My husband accused me of being grumpy the other day when I was on period. I don’t think he’ll ever do that again!!!

          12. Renarde says:


            I’m sure he won’t.

            But in case he does. The dangly collection between his legs might merit some intrest…

            Hard and fast. Then step away

          13. alexissmith2016 says:


      3. alexine99 says:

        Are you serious?

        1. Renarde says:


          Oh bless, you’re new!

          I’m very rarely serious about anything. Excepting sex. And Hg. And smoked salmon. Possibly my cats, the Overlords. That just depends on my mood. Also how much of the local wildlife they have killed.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Don’t patronise somebody just because they have recently started to comment.

          2. Ren says:

            Boss you are correct.

            I’ll leave it to you, shall I?

        2. Ren says:

          Apologies Alexine.

          I have a funny sense of humour at times.

          Ask away. We are all bonkers here. Nothing makes any sense. But yes, attack is the best form of defence.

          Wound. Seek the chink on their armour. There always is one. But only attack when you are ready. Knowing when you are ready is not easy. I get it wrong all the time.

          What’s your story, lovely?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No, attack is not the best form of defence. No contact is the appropriate response.
            Do not look for a chink in our armour, focus on your own defences. You will wound the narcissist as a collateral consequence of a solid no contact regime, you should be the focus of your actions, not the narcissist.

          2. alexine99 says:

            Speak for yourself Renarde…perhaps you aren’t the fox you think you are.
            I know I’m not bonkers. I also don’t feel compelled to share my story…I’m here to learn… and offer support if and when I can. I’m approaching HG’s material as a method to learning and integrating a discipline. It’s helping.
            Good luck to you.

          3. Duchessbea says:

            Ren, I mean this in the best possible way when I say it, but you need a time out. I have read more of your comments on here and usually you are bad but from what I have read tonight, just horrible the way you have addressed people. In particular NarcAngel, who in my opinion has always been lovely and given very sound advice. Ren, you need a break from everything and you need to get out there and go and find yourself. Since I have been on this site, the one thing that comes across very strongly with you is that you are not a happy person in any area of your life. That is just sad. But it doesn’t have to be like that Renarde. It is up to you to live your best life, and surround yourself with people who will help you do this. Don’t sit there wallowing in self pity, or feeling angry all the time. The only person you hurt in the long run by doing that is yourself. You need to let things go. Hard, yes of course. But for you to live a happy and peaceful life and be good to yourself, you have to do that. Be good Renarde.

        3. NarcAngel says:

          We are NOT all bonkers here and that is not a constructive impression to give new visitors. HG’s work and advice makes perfect sense and contradiction is unhelpful.

          1. Renarde says:

            Oh shut up NA.

            You don’t half get on my tits at times. And let me remind you, I defended you not that long ago. Did I get a word of thanks? No I did not.

            Supercillious is more your fashion.

          2. FoolMe1Time says:


            What’s wrong with you! Just because NA didn’t thank you is know reason to be rude and disrespectful to her! She doesn’t deserve that, no one on here does. Did you ever think she might not have even seen your comment sticking up for her? We are not bonkers here. Our ET gets out of control at times, like I hope yours is doing right now? You have never not given constructive advice on here Ren, so why start now?

          3. Renarde says:


            We are off our tits. To pretend otherwise is foolish.

            I think your post to me is kind but I’m struggling to understand it. Double negs.

            You are being bonkers with Engliah.

            Can you rephrase please?

          4. FoolMe1Time says:

            No Ren I’m not going to rephrase anything! If it makes you feel better to bash me for my English and my grammar, go right ahead! Knock yourself out! At least if your being nasty and disrespectful to me, you’re leaving everyone else alone!

          5. Renarde says:


            You are being very silly. Very silly indeed.

            I haven’t even taken my gloves off yet.

            You percieve offence where none was intended. You clearly don’t understand a British sense of humour.

            Nasty and disrespectful?

            Only an American can come out with that one!

            Go home. It’s bedtime.

          6. Renarde says:


            Ignore me tonight. I’m in the wrong. And I am sorry.

          7. Renarde says:


            I will tell you precisely what’s wrong with me. And why I am mad. And what drove me to suicide.

            My parents. Both narcs. Every tried living with three of the cunts? At once? No. Thought not.

            Money. It’s all about money.

            Dad started cheating on mum in 1970. Why then? That’s when the first house was bought. Hes so transparent.

            Went to Paris, ‘with work’. No. I dont know many valve manufacturers that operate out of there. He pretended hed been robbed. Hotel. He hadnt. He bought two bottles of perfume. One for mum. One for mistress. Pretended he’d been robbed. Hence he could cover for the expense.

            Went to Amsterdam. Again, sex. Hardly drugs.

            45 years. Shes still with him. Why? Money. She was warned tonight when he goes, the money goes. She wont be able to survive. Not for long and shes clueless. Dont for one minute think she is anywhere near my level. Neither is Dad. Heaven knows where I got it from.

            Anyway, tonight I’m letting it go. My own birthright. I wouldnt put it past the old lizard to will the money away to Battersea. Fuck them. They can rot in hell.

          8. FoolMe1Time says:

            You know Renarde I’m sorry for what you went through, but everyone on here has gone through something, some might not seem bad to you, but it was God damn bad for them! Have I ever lived with three narcs? No just two, my Father and my Sister! My Mother was CoD just like me ( we keep it in the family! ) They cheated on each other left, right, upside down and backwards! She even took me along as cover! Me, well mine isn’t so bad, I’ve been abused physically, mentally, and sexually since I could walk. Actually recent family memories has it starting just as I began to walk. But it’s no big deal! Some have suffered a lot worse then that! You have no right to call me or anyone else on here bonkers!! Abused and broken maybe, but not bonkers! Being mad and angry is all part of it, taking it out on people who want to help you is just plain wrong! Giving wrong advice on HGs blog is even worse!

          9. Renarde says:


            I’m sorry you went through that. I truly am.

            I’m also sorry you dont understand an idiom.

            Bonkers doesnt mean mad. And believe me, when you have a schizophrenic as a mother who went utter psycotic; that’s mad. Literally

            Bonkers is a phrase. Nothing more.

            Dont take offence where none was truly intended.

            And yes, you are bonkers.

            Take it as a compliment!

          10. Renarde says:

            NA has never given me advice btw.

          11. FoolMe1Time says:

            I think she just did Ren. Please excuse me I have two Covid patients to take care of.

          12. Renarde says:


            You’ve had this coming for a king, king fine.

          13. FoolMe1Time says:


            NA has been on here for a long time, just as you have. She does not deserve to be treated with such disrespect! She has shared very private and personal parts of her life with us on this blog, and it wasn’t done for her! It was done to help us! She has been one of the first to jump onboard and help someone new to the blog feel safe! What the hell are you doing Ren? We are all here to help you also you know?!

          14. Renarde says:

            NA frequently gets on my tits. As you are now doing.

            I’ve just kept it quiet.

          15. NarcAngel says:


            I’M supercillious?

            Come now. It was you and not me who made the following statement to someone:

            “There are incredibly intelligent people on here. I am the most intelligent”.

            You have been a bit uncharacteristic even for you of late, even prompting others to ask if you were okay. I understand from reading that you have been having some family stuff and felt you needed a break but then reconsidered. I wondered if you realized that it might be coming through in your comments and so the reminder that new people (such as the person who had to ask if you were joking) do not know your are attempting to inject humour as the rest of us are accustomed to, and it can cause confusion. I know you would not want that for others having remembered how confused you felt when you first arrived.

            Had what coming? Your disapproval? I’m not easily shattered as you know, so I hope you feel better getting that off your chest but we’re all good – at least on my end.

            If you don’t know my story or anything about me that is on you as it’s all here. I have written three letters (two to different narcissists and one to the empath) as well as given many details about my life in the over 7500 comments I have apparently made in my time here. Should be enough for you to have pieced together in your time here if you had so wished to know.

            Take a minute Ren. The intention was good and directed toward clearing up any misunderstanding for newcomers.

          16. Renarde says:


            There it goes. That spectacular sense of humour fail.

            My crack about intelligence was a joke. I can be profoundly stupid at times.

            My sense of humour causes confusion? I do not doubt that. 7500? Btw That’s a lot. I wonder how many I have made?

            I’m not in a great mood tonight. I’ve not been in a great mood since the end of April. The 23rd to be precise.

            Helping newcomers is always good.

            I should probably shut up.

          17. NarcAngel says:


            I’ve not given it directly but rather made it possible for you to get expert advice all the same. I needed no thanks btw.

          18. Renarde,

            You are obviously going through something, but taking it out on NA and HG (and now FMT) won’t be constructive.

            I’ll admit I was also surprised you wrote:
            “There are incredibly intelligent people on here. I am the most intelligent”.

            You must be joking.

            HG and his information have helped me immensely over the almost last four years, especially when I was bewildered by narc abuse and new to the blog. I encourage new readers to keep reading and take in the information at your own pace. Some is hard to process or believe at first. HG pulls no punches.

            Confusing new readers when they are taking tentative steps to finding freedom and lashing out at other posters doesn’t help anyone. Especially you.

          19. Renarde says:


            That’s a very good point and something I hadn’t actually considered.

            Yes, that was not good on my part.

            Actually, I don’t really care if I hurt myself. I DO care if i have hurt others though.

            That is unforgivable and unacceptable.

            Thank you for your wisdom.


          20. Violetta says:

            Ren, do you need to do a consult with HG about something specific? I get the impression that something has triggered you. You’ve always had a narcy family, just like I’ve always had a wife-beating, kiddie-bashing father, a hypocrite mother who covered for him, and a greedy quack of a shrink who covered for them both. It doesn’t bother me with equal intensity at every moment, although of course it’s been a lifelong influence.

            Sometimes dysfunction is like a scrim curtain. Put a light on the far side, you can see through it pretty well: it’s almost invisible. Put the light on the near side and it becomes opaque. It’s hard even to believe there is a world on the other side.

            Since your background is what it has always been, what has changed?

          21. Renarde says:


            Yes, I do. Usually, or recently, Hg and I talk about all sorts. Which is cool. It is what it is. I certainly have fun. As always, I learn a little bit more about myself.

            Last night, I learned something which I’m struggling to understand, although I know it to be true. Nothing connected with here or Hg.

            I have been attempting over the past few weeks to reopen the case on my Rape and attempted rape plus other matters. Over and over again. At one point, I threatened to present myself in person (as is our right) at the police station.

            No, you can’t. Its shut. What the actual fuck?

            Of course, I let loose. You mean, I can buy a bag of rice at Tesco’s but you lot are shut up tight? Bonkers.

            Ok. I carry on. I state this:

            1 – If you MUST call me on a withheld number (And survivours of DA must NOT be treated this way) at least leave a VM, so i can get back to you.

            2 – I do not want my case being handled by a DC and a man whom is in the DA unit for our area. I already had the measure of him.

            Guess what happened?

            1 – I had MULTIPLE withheld calls without VMs.

            And then finally 2

            It was HIM. I found this out last night. He has an extremely unusual surname. And of course, I KNOW why this twat did it.

            So let’s diagnose. Cerebral. MRN. Level, has to be Upper. I was tending to a MMRN but it just can’t be so. He wouldn’t have been able to get away with it for as long as he had unless he is C and U.

            This is a man. A UMC, who is in the DA unit of a MASSIVE area in the UK. How many other people has he harmed?

            I have badge, surname. First name. He will undoubtedly be not without his minions. I would naturally assume that his direct line manager is also a narc.

            Matters must be escalated. This was something that the MME I was with, talked often about.

            Then I would counter, the more you open up the branches, the more you create intellectual and emotional havoc for yourself.

            But he was right. Hg was right. You just need to bring them down.

            And I will.

            As to matters with my parents. You see, I had an idea. Which was equally bonkers, that I might care for them.

            It took 10 minutes to realise how now very badly toxic they are. I fucked off. I will not return unless the situation changes.

            As to NS.

            Hg, I’ve been very bad and I apologise to you and to others I have harmed.

            I lost my edge for a while.

            The Edge is back.

            Thank you and thanks to Vi.


          22. Renarde says:

            Of course I was bloody joking SW. Goodness, stop taking yourself so damn seriously.

            I’m done. I’m through. Permanently . Frankly, I cannot abide the lack of a sense of humour. Jesus Christ. And you lot voted in Trump? And I thought my SOH was keen!

            To people who have been kind with spirit. I thank you.

            To others. Haha! You think you know about psychopathy? Think again. Then think some more. You will STILL be nowhere near the answer.



          23. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Renarde,
            We understand and sympathise you’ve recently been going thru some serious issues with your family and in your life right now
            Being mad or angry, culminates in a very reactionary thought process which is not conducive to logical thinking or desired outcomes
            The calming thought process yields better results with more controllable applications
            This year has been exceptionally emotional, as we all know
            We need to remain respectful and kind to one another as berating, belittling or personalising will only antagonise and create further hostility rather than seeking the help we so desperately need
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          24. Renarde says:


            And quite so.

            Thank you for you for your very kind words, advice and guidance xxx

          25. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Hey you. I read this last night. Woke up at 6am thinking about you.

            I know what you meant by ‘bonkers’, you were just making light of things. Bonkers is a bit like plonker. A term of endearment. The laugh and jab in the side as you react to something funny. HG made me laugh on a thread yesterday and I actually typed in ‘Plonker.’ Thought better of it and cancelled the reply Ha Ha.

            “I am most intelligent.” I laughed out loud when I read that. I know who that was aimed at and why. Again, you were just teasing.

            Something is very wrong here Renarde. I think the family situation is escalating at pace and you left the blog because you knew you were going to place yourself in the middle of it all. Something you just had to do. I think you are absolutely sick and tired of being in this situation with them and you fear you will never be rid of them, that it will always come back to this. The walls are closing in and you don’t know who to fight first. You are absolutely worn out, holding your own life together and dealing with their drama. You are sacrificing yourself because you are ‘the strong one.’

            Some of us sink, some fight, some cry, some fall silent. You fight and you fight everyone at once. I bet you are a sight to behold!
            I’ve not been here long enough and don’t know you well enough. Others here do. I think perhaps Violetta is on the same line of thought as me. Talk to her or talk to HG. Talk to one of the old guard who knows you best, who you trust. I think you do need to talk though. You can’t breathe can you?


          26. Renarde says:


            No I cannot breathe.

            Thank you, kind lady x

      4. Leela says:

        😀 Haha, Ren!

        I already GOSO! 🙂 So all fine. 😀

        But I really love that pic. Those two middle fingers to the narc are GOSO! 😉

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, they are not. They are Challenge Fuel and a breach of no contact.

        2. Renarde says:


          1. Duchessbea says:

            Hey Ren, Have to agree with the comments of NarcAngel. You can be a bit sharp in humour and with written word. I too as a new person almost did not come back after making a comment. Reminded me of a Narc I used to know. No offence. But as a newcomer it felt great to meet like-minded people who had been where I had been and to get their advice and hear their stories. But your comment to me made me want to pack my bags and run for the door. I get it if you are going through personal stuff. But not everyone who is new would understand. So be kind. You have a great sense of humour, just don’t be so sharp with it. Take care.

          2. Renarde says:


            Your words have stricken me but I only have myself to blame.

            My sense of homour kept me lavish same. It’s difficult to describe. My SoH is so very dark. Indeed at times it verges on nasty. Way beyond most unaware narcs are capable of.

          3. Violetta says:

            Ren, if anybody has a warped sense of humor, I’m guilty, but a sense of humor can be used to mask pain. I just got the impression you’ve been in tremendous pain lately.

          4. Bibi says:

            Renarde, please don’t shame yourself. This Little American got your humour just fine. (I even resort to British spellings when I feel like it.) I’m a bit of an Anglophile anyway.

            Others made their points, but I don’t like pile-ups on anyone, esp. when that person is not a troll. How many times on here have I been silly? Countless. I know that bonkers is another way of saying goofy-silly.

            There is an old joke I can’t recall about the English barrier between British and American being too great, and one can see it amid the slang.

            I have made jokes and remarks that were misinterpreted and I try to clarify when I can. This site has been very welcoming to my humour–where else can I tell cannibal jokes?

            Then very often I am like, ‘oh shit, maybe I shouldn’t have said that.’ Anyway, I am not trying to negate anyone’s points–I just don’t want Renarde to feel badly. How I know is that I do the same thing. Filled with a lot of self-shame.

            And these times in the world suck. Who is happy? I was on here a few weeks ago, writing some depressing post about hating my life but I felt like I needed to say it somewhere.

            My moods go up and down. One foot in front of the other–sometimes resorting to simple platitude is all one can do. I still gotta put my pants on later today.

          5. stepfordwyfe says:


            Have you stayed gone? That would be swell.
            As you don’t even try to anonymize yourself, I have had the DISpleasure of meeting you in person when you decided to insert yourself in my life (for that one brief hour) and I don’t believe I’ve thought of you once since.
            Til now when I read how you blame YOUR PARENTS for your current behavior.
            How you behaved that time you were flying monkey-ing my homicidal NPD, is disgusting.

            You shouldn’t even comment as some sort of Narc abuse survivor. You want to be? a narc and certainly have the lack of self esteem on your side, but you’re just one of those badly behaving SYCOphants who gleefully contributes to bullying and stalking for the greater good OF THE OPPOSITE side.

            This is, of course my personal opinion having been momentarily bothered by your mobbing mentality and desire to do harm to someone completely unknown to you. It’s pathetic.

            IMO you are entirely to blame for whatever ‘position’ you find yourself in. We all had difficult childhoods. From what I’ve read here the others commenting do a hell of a lot to make their lives better. In my experience, you do not.

            You should examine yourself. I TRULY don’t give a rat’s ass what you think (of me) or what you might say (to me). I check in here only a couple times a year because don’t you guys get a little bothered by this Narcissist’s behavior who writes (and charges $$) ?!! on this blog for all his wisdom? At least years ago, all I remember were his excuses for his shitty behavior but, I get it now.

            BTW Retard, Ren, do you even know who HG is? I don’t think you do.

            Not this HG but the original one (maybe he comes back Idk) ..

            Because IF you did, you might be impressed but how STUPID you would be, IMO, to do all that nasty legwork for free.

            I know who HG is (was) because he bothered to tell me and show me.
            A formidable psychopath of demented proportions AND with all he’s achieved in life, the shit he does is _______.
            It’s fucked up. Illegal, unethical, felonious and would put him in prison. That man’s karmic deficit is GIGANTIC and the depths of his depravity would take your breath away. If we weren’t who we are, the true Narc survivors, you would probably never believe it if I were to tell you. His poor, young wife dear God help her.

            And if you’re really all that, O.G. (Original Gangster) Tudor, you wouldn’t give a rat’s ass what I have to say. Be bad, be proud. Your extraordinary evilness speaks loudly to your confirmed position as a self proclaimed supreme being.
            Give me the same weapons you fools use, and see how you like it.

            Super empaths realllllly get to you, don’t we.
            You bore me.

            Oh yeah, and Fuck Off.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Unsurprisingly a full moon followed this post.

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            That post is concerning on many many levels.

  14. Duchessbea says:

    HG, do your kind just have a complete hatred for Empaths. I know they have to get fuel, but that is unreal acting like that all the time.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The hatred is a response to wounding or challenge.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Sometimes a narcs provocations seem to come out of the blue, when everything is going well.

        What’s that about,HG?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You think everything is going well, but remember that is your perspective, the narcissist sees it differently.

          1. Duchessbea says:

            HG, I often wondered about the narcissists and the harem. Why they all seem to get along and how come with the narcissist and myself it was like chalk and cheese no matter how much I tried for it not to be. But reading your last comment makes sense. That is the way it will always be. Two different personality types. I’ll always be chalk and he will always be cheese. Hmmmmm.

      2. Duchessbea says:

        Ahh I see. Another piece of the puzzle which I think helps in a rather big way in understanding and putting all the other pieces together. Thank you HG.

  15. karmicoverload says:

    He is a master at provocation. His preferred method (Before I blocked him) was to hone in on something I believed in, a cause I was passionate about, then tear me to pieces. I was a “stupid sheep” for having these beliefs and values. I was always WRONG and in one instance where he insisted I had called him a member of the KKK (I had not), he described me as “not even a person,” “a liar” and a “f*cking c*nt.” That was the final straw. Every time I think about unblocking him, I remember those words.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      OMG, definitely remember those words! They will help to keep you safe.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:


      Call me old fashioned but I detest the c word. I think it’s the utmost in disrespect for a man to use it directly against a woman in the way your narc did to you. LET is right, remember him in that light and it will help you to stay NC. You are well rid of him x

      1. karmicoverload says:

        Thanks ladies. My E.T is HIGH today, I’m feeling so down. This might be the day when I actually shed tears more than once in one year, and both times it will have been because of him. I almost unblocked him last night. I stayed awake until gone 5am, stewing and panicked. Perhaps he is not NPD, but BPD? As a person who identifies with certain traits of BPD, it is breaking me to think I might have him all wrong, and he pushes me away to prevent himself from getting hurt. I am about to book a Narc Detector Consult to find out once and for all.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Karmic,

          I was just going to suggest the Narc Detector until I read your last line!
          It takes all the doubt away. I went through the what ifs too, gave every benefit of the doubt. I would have continued to do so and found it very difficult to go No Contact without the Narc Detector. Complete it, think carefully about everything you need to include then, you’re done. Hand over the thinking to HG. No more debating with yourself. Once you receive his response and explanation as to how he arrived at his conclusion, then you know what to do.

          In our heart of hearts we know. We wouldn’t be here otherwise. The difference is that HG proves it to you. That takes away your need to replay and question yourself. It’s the beginning for you and the beginning of the end for your narc.

          Don’t be tempted to contact the Narc in the meantime. You are taking action by doing the Narc Detector. There is nothing spoiling in the meantime. Xx

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Sensible observation.

          2. karmicoverload says:

            Thanks again TS. I am going through the questionnaire slowly because I don’t want to miss anything out that could be important, or I will be beating myself up about that too!

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ha ha,

            Karmic, it took me ages to get the Narc Detector right. I mean ages! The thing is there is so much you could include, and we don’t know enough at the start to know which bits are most relevant either. That’s enough to get us into overthinking it, well it was for me.
            I opted for events that shocked me most. If it shocked then there’s a reason why it shocked. I also included repetitive habits or behaviours.
            I did my Narc Detector very very early after arriving on the site. I’m a fighter and I knew I would continue to fight until someone said it was ok to stop.
            Even then, knowing so little about it, it was enough for HG to nail school and cadre and explain exactly why this was the case. Later as I learned more, I understand exactly why HG classed him the way he did. It’s impressive. I know my information was minimal in the grand scheme but it was enough.

            Prepare to be amazed!

          4. Duchessbea says:

            Yes, I often wondered about the BPD aspect aswell. Seems a lot of people think along these lines. Interesting. I suppose BPD with NPD traits. Or is it NPD with BPD traits?

        2. alexine99 says:

          I have had this same dilemma….weighing out as to whether my ex is NPD or BPD. Either way my ex was very bad news and there is no helping him.
          He was also exhausting…I’m only now with the help of HG’s work beginning to regain some of my energy….and clarity.
          I’m also working through what kind of narc he is via a ND consult…my guess is upper mid range… but we’ll see.
          Hang in there…stay no contact!

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  17. Saint anger. says:

    To counter act this. There’s a story of a holy heyoka empath living in India wiv his greater narc wife who he loved. After the temple service he and his friends would go back to his house for food which his greater narc wife would cook. She was a bloody good cook to however he and his friends would interact wiv her and she was pure evil, manipulative and damn right nasty to her heyoka husband and his friends all of the time. She’d go out the kitchen and his friends would say to him “how in God’s name do u live wiv that woman?” and the heyoka empath would rear back in his chair and say “she doesn’t know where I live.” the point being he loved his wife so much unconditionally and he had died to his own selfishness and wants that she couldn’t harm him no matter what. Now that’s real power. The power of the skilled heyoka empath. Yes most empath and super empath will break. But a mature heyoka empath u’ll never break, ever. Their to strong. Their the rocky balboa’s of empath. Saint Anger.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      While I’m not on board with the Heyoka Empath which you keep referring to, you pose an interesting counternarrative. The problem with that is the man has developed a ‘pseudopersonality’ to deal with his wife’s abuse. While he may not be true to himself in that respect, he believes he is being true to himself ultimately “she doesn’t know where I live”. He is not living his truth, he is living a lie. One that involves denying his true self in order to accommodate his wife. This is not healthy, nor is it for the most part necessary. The wake up call to a narcissist may never come, but it must come to those who hope to survive and ultimately thrive. “Putting up with that woman” is as unnecessary as it is unkind to suggest.

      No one should have to put up with the treatment of the narcissist and the choice to do so will only end in the destruction of self for the empath.

  18. Robin says:

    Why is what I’ll never understand, I wish I could be s narc for s day just to see what feelings or emotions you have

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You have access to my work, so you need not “be a narc for one day”.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LOL. Very good HG.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I agree.

  19. December Infinity says:

    As per the last sentence, who do YOU think you are looking at, hmmm? Right back at you. Of course, me trying to stand up for myself or even speak while HE was going on blithering on about whatever whenever he saw fit, only extended the provocation. So exhausting. I started tuning him out. Awful.

  20. Kate says:

    All the bolts on my tires were loosened recently, causing one wheel to come partially off and stranding myself and the children on a mountain road. Had we been on the highway, we might have been killed. Is this a narcissist attempt to provoke a response? I have no other enemies. What if we had been killed? Is that “fuel”?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There would be no fuel if you are both dead.

    2. lickemtomorrow says:

      What an awful story, Kate 🙁 So glad you and your children are OK. It’s frightening to think your narcissist may have done this. At the same time sounds like you wouldn’t put it past them. Apart from the ‘fuel’ issue which HG has already responded to, it sounds like you are in fear of your narcissist and he’s possibly dangerous. Not sure of your current situation with regard to him (married, separated, divorced, etc.), but as children’s lives are at stake I would suggest you follow up with HG asap in order to get more support.

      Please stay safe in the meantime.

  21. Eva says:

    How does the victim’s reaction or outburst exert control? Could the same not be said when we put you in a rage?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See The 3 Interactions With the Narcissist.

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