The Narcissist’s Understanding and Use of Tears – Part One



Tears. One might consider them the ultimate embodiment of emotion. Tears appear when you have experienced some kind of extreme emotion. I know because I have watched on so many occasions as I have sought to understand the circumstances in which somebody cries and why it is that they do so.

I understand that when tears appear, whether it is a welling-up in the eyes, the single full teardrop which slides down a cheek or the cascading waterfall which leaves the eyes red-rimmed and blurry, it is as a consequence of you experiencing emotion in a huge dosage. What I had to learn was which emotions were associated with the emission of water from the eyes.

The first emotion that presented itself for my understanding as to how it caused tears was pain. I remembered as a child that my younger brother was somewhat accident prone. If there was tree branch he would fall off it, if there was a wall, he would fall off it and once he even managed to “fall” off a rug and sprain his ankle. The cuts and bruises would have him howling in pain as he lay there sobbing or limped away tears trickling down his face in search of our father.

I saw how a physical injury such as a scraped leg or bruised forearm would bring forth a flood of tears. My younger brother would await the attendance of my concerned father, usually brought to the scene by my always caring sister and his tears would be wiped away with a large white handkerchief as consolation and soothing words were administered. I was not accident prone and therefore rarely susceptible to physical injury save the deliberate. I do recall once catching my hand on the edge of the grill and instantly a sore red weal appeared. I presented myself to my nearby mother as I felt the tears forming in my eyes.

“No tears HG,” she announced firmly, “tears show fears, be fearless,” she instructed me as she cast a cursory glance over my injury and directed me to the cold water tap. Tears came from physical hurt but it was not to be for me.

Around the same time I also understood that tears were generated by sadness and it was sister who exhibited this the most. I would find her in one of her many hiding places (I knew them well as I used them myself) and she would be quietly crying. I would ask her why she was crying because I wanted to know. Thinking back, I never felt anything other than curiosity when I saw her with puffy eyes and tear-stained cheeks.

“Why are you crying Rachael?” I would ask.

“Mother shouted at me because I hadn’t tidied my room, she said I was a bad and dirty girl and I don’t like her saying that to me, it upsets me.”

I would nod in understanding and walk away, leaving her alone. She was instructive in showing me that sadness caused tears. Her rabbit escaped from its hutch and went missing so she cried because she missed it.

She missed a birthday party because she was ill so she cried because she was sad that she could not play with the other children. If she watched something on television she would often be in tears as she felt bad for the starving children in Africa or the victims of some earthquake. She would cry and ask my father why God did these things and he would do his best to comfort her and explain.

He was always good at finding an explanation, but he was a very bright man, well-read and with a keen hunger for knowledge which he invariably retained. There was at least something that I had inherited from him then. I would watch in fascination as Rachael would cry and he would scoop her up and make gentle noises to try to soothe her. Just as he laid a gentle hand on my sobbing injured brother, I saw how this demonstration of tears, be it through physical or emotional hurt engendered sympathy and caring from him.

He never rejected them, he never barked at them to deal with it or get on with it, but he would always pander to their upset until he had chased it away and made them feel better. It always got them attention from him, more than I ever did. All they had to do was cry and the sympathy would flow with the attendant attention. I learned that quickly enough.

I, by contrast, never recall feeling sad. I have tried and the good doctors have asked me about this on numerous occasions.

“How did you feel when something bad happened to you?” Dr E would ask.

“What do you mean by bad?” I often have to help him provide some context to his questions. I thought he would have learned by now.

“If you did something wrong for example.”

“I was well-behaved as I child. I did as I was told. I saw what happened if I did not.”

“I see, did your parents ever tell you off?”


“How did you feel then?”

“Resentful, angry, determined,” I answered quickly.





“How about after the incident?”

I glared at Dr E as I did not like him springing that on me without adequate warning. At least he had remembered to refer to it by the label I required. I remained silent.

“Did you not feel sad after that?”


“How did you feel?”

I paused. I did not want to revisit this but I knew he would not stop until he had extracted something from me. He would prod and probe in order to fulfil his selfish desire to know how I felt. I felt empty and I felt angry but I had realised by now that if I told him this he would only go on even longer. The truth would not serve me here. I remained still and silent.

“How did you feel?”

I noticed his tone had become gentler, more searching.

I then thought of all the injustices that I had ever suffered, the hurt that had been meted out against me, the denial of my brilliance, the shunning of my achievements, the lack of recognition when I deserved so much more. I focused on the times when I had been ignored by the foolish, the fact that I am consigned to an unending quest for fuel. I brought to the fore the hurt that I keep under control except for moments such as this and I banished the room and Dr E from my mind as I allowed the floodgates to open.

The desired effect eventually came, although it took some time and I eventually felt the welling in my eyes. I blinked theatrically to ensure that Dr E noticed and finally I felt a tear, only a small one though, squeeze out and make it was beneath my eye. I brushed at my other eye, features set in melancholy and still I said nothing. Dr E remained quiet as well as I stared at the floor willing another tear to join the first and thankfully it too finally came and rolled downward, a larger one this time which landed on my left thigh. He will have seen that. I did not look at him but concentrated on the floor still, summoning up all of the hurt I could muster in the hope of maintaining this appearance.

“I can see it is troubling you, perhaps we should move on. We can revisit this at a later time,” he said softly.

I nodded.

Those early observations of how the crying game worked had paid off once again.

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82 thoughts on “The Narcissist’s Understanding and Use of Tears – Part One

  1. BC30 says:

    I decided to track how many days in a row I can go without crying and what triggered my tears if I do cry. So far, it’s zero. Yesterday I was watching GBBO and cried because I was so happy for the winner and the baby and the gentleman who passed away. The day before that it was because of the series finale of HTGAWM (How To Get Away With Murder)

    So far today, no tears…

  2. Eternity says:

    Now this article makes me want to cry. As a child you should be able to express your feelings through crying and the parents should make you feel better.. HG,, I am so sorry that you had a mother that didnt let you show your emotions and a father that didnt pay any attention to you like he did your siblings. Sniff sniff.

  3. Fieke says:

    I can imagine dr. E will be reading this now, and will have a session about this again with you. Many tell their sons not to cry, I hate it.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Dr E is not reading anything at present.

      1. Another Cat says:

        Was he perhaps old and has passed?

      2. WhoCares says:

        Re: Dr. E. – not reading *anything* at present OR not reading anything on your blog, at present?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          As I wrote it.

          1. WhoCares says:

            Thank-you HG.

          2. Violetta says:

            “Quod scripsi scripsi.”

            Devil.quoting scripture?

      3. BC30 says:

        Sounds like Dr. E died.

        I may have missed that info somewhere (?)

        1. Eternity says:

          I don’t think he is dead. I just think he is not reading the comments on the blog.

      4. MB says:

        Dr E? 😱 Might there be a new KHG episode being recorded as I type?

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Could be MB, could be!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Easy there Hong Kong Phooey.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            “A fight that just won’t stop.” 😉

      5. Kristin says:

        The posts regarding your sessions with the good doctors are some of my favorite. Do you plan on writing about your more recent meetings with them? Inquiring minds, or better yet, truth seekers want to know! Thanks.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          There is more to reveal and I shall do so in the fullness of time.

          1. Kristin says:

            Thank you. I honestly don’t know how you do it all but am grateful nonetheless.

  4. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Was pretty much the same with PatriNarc: He always pointed out “Don´t be weak, be hard, be tough, you have to be hard and tough in this world”. He hated it when I cried. He used so scold me for my “weakness”. He HATED any perceived weakness of course. lol. Typcial! Narc!

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Conditioning, lovely. Not. Was your father brought up in the same way as a parent (or both) of his? I know a guy who was severely beaten by his father for being ‘weak’. Back then, people didn’t get “involved” but these days they do report to children’s services, social services, police etc.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        PatriNarc was the golden child! 🙂

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Wow, interesting

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            When he grew up, there was war! WW II could also be a possible reason, because war also means: lack of control environment.

            Otherwise PatriNarc is a spoiled brat! 😉

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Makes sense RE: WWII. Explanatory in itself 🙂

  5. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Did Rachael become a co-dependent? Isn´t that the sister who became a “doormat” (as you wrote)?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Aw yes! Just finished “Chained” a couple of days ago. I was really worried about poor Rachael (hey, I´m an empath 😉 ) but was very nice to read the end .. 🙂

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Hi Leela, I was concerned about Rachael, too, and surprised she managed to escape with the help of the Psychologist she was seeing. That’s being honest. Not too many Psychologist’s out there seem to be able to put their finger on the pulse and help effect an escape. And we never did get to hear the actual method of her escape, except she somehow managed to leave and hold her own.

          Now, here’s another bit of honesty. I felt sad for HG. His sister’s eyes had been opened, her reliance on him became less, and she appeared more wary of him. Prior to this, HG seemed to enjoy her reliance and gushing praise, all of which provided him with plentiful fuel. I guess I read it as an empath and was sad to see the eventual disconnect with regard to Rachael admiring her older brother and relying on him. I hate endings, basically. And though it didn’t seem to bother HG as his fuel matrix widened, it bothered me. It seemed as though HG took a level of enjoyment and satisfaction from that relationship. And not always to his sister’s detriment. It made me sad, too, that Rachael had to let go of her ‘idealized’ older brother. That she had to see and treat HG in a manner that wasn’t necessary before – because her eyes had been opened. Maybe it’s the empath need in me to want the best for everyone and somehow feeling HG was denied when it came to his relationship with his younger sister. I would have liked her to go on admiring him and for him to protect her <3

          PS: I'm sure HG drilled Rachael about the Psychologist's methods 😉

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Aaaw, H.G. always finds sources of fuel. I was happy for Rachael. I feel so sorry for the co-dependent empaths. 🙁 That´s why I regard them as the most difficult customers when I have to work with them. Why is that? Because of my empathy! I don´t feel bad for H.G. because he gets by very well. But I think it was so important for Rachael to become independent, especially from H.G. and Nathan. H.G. and Rachael can still have a nice brother-sister-relationship, but being co-dependent is not a good thing at all. 🙁

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            I don’t know what is making me so emotional about this one, Leela, but I felt this way when I read it, too. How I have no Geyser in my EDT is beyond me as the tears are tripping me as I think about it. Ha! Just grabbed myself a choc chip cookie to help make it better.

            All the things you said are right and it’s not that I’m not happy for Rachael. I am.

            We are all Rachael’s in a sense, and I’m a Rachael in that I’m a co-dependent, too.

            So we are here for the good news that escape is possible, even necessary.

            For some reason I wanted HG and his sister to have that loving relationship that was denied to them both. I could see a certain level of goodness in her dependence and his protection. We know ultimately it would prove to be a toxic dynamic with the narcissistic element involved, but HGs description of it didn’t sound overly toxic. She was adoring him, as little sister’s often do, and in some ways he was accommodating her. Eventually life and reality have to get in the way, but I still sense the loss of that happening and the wickedness of narcissism in causing that to be the case in this instance.

            I’m railing against narcissism today – the actual condition, not the person in this case <3

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Is the Rachael/HG dynamic that you envision something you had or wanted in your relationships with your siblings and perhaps that’s why it affects you so?

            Just something to ponder – not really looking for an answer.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            My sister was older than me, NA, but only by a year or so, and the same with my brother who was a year or so younger. Almost a carbon copy of my own family/children. Which is weird!

            I do remember seeing my older sister as a protective factor in some respects in the family dynamic. She provided what I would call a ‘buffer zone’ in our parent’s volatile marriage. Kind of like a safety in numbers thing also. When she left home to pursue her career, I remember feeling very abandoned in the circumstances. Next in line in terms of having to take responsibility for the mayhem. I had in many ways already done that. Only now I just felt more alone in having to deal with it all.

            That’s not really what I am feeling in relation to this article though. HG tells us some stories from when he was a little boy and they are quite heart wrenching. It’s not difficult to feel sympathetic to the small child who is suffering neglect and abuse. What I experienced in Chained was the same feeling, but for the adult HG. Most of the time we are not necessarily given to feeling sympathetic for ‘big’ HG, as he does not require it – though some articles from the narcissistic perspective make us aware he is feeling sorry for himself, or occasionally experiences with the doctors elicit sympathy. But I experienced this feeling of genuine loss for the adult HG in his relationship with his sister. I did not want him to lose her (the opposite of how I felt about my own sister’s departure) or the comfort she could bring. I also wanted her to still be excited to see him and feel she could depend on him instead of drawing back from his support. It’s like there was a genuine opportunity for a relationship to exist between them where each could contribute to the other and their happiness. And maybe it all comes down to HG being a brilliant writer and encouraging such thoughts from an empath! But I wanted something genuine for both of them, and felt very sad that narcissism, and awareness around that, robbed them of that.

            Narcissism has certainly robbed me of any genuine relationships with my brother and sister and perhaps you are correct in suggesting some sadness also flows from that. But the focus here is definitely on HG and his loss rather than mine.

            So, thank you for asking NA, and for giving me further pause for thought.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I never feel sorry for myself

          6. Asp Emp says:

            It’s because you have been made that ‘way’.

            A virtual hug to you.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Oh, HG, I mean in the articles you write where you express disappointment in an appliance and how they have let you down. I referred to that as you feeling sorry for yourself, but perhaps it should be expressed simply as disappointment or treachery (from your point of view). I will note this for future reference. Mid Range behaviour is way below the Ultra in the circumstances.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            HG may not “feel” disappointment but may see it as ‘treachery’….. damn right MRN are WAY down the list – echelons, compared to The Ultra 😉

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            In your opinion, from the perspective of the narcissist, where does the need for revenge come from?

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Your failures.

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:

            You are so very different to us. Or, maybe me. For me, revenge would be born out of the deepest pain. I have never sought revenge, which must be a good thing in itself.

  6. December Infinity says:

    The last narc played the crying game to get attention when he was playing the victim (which was all the time). Of course when he upset me and I was crying he treated me like dirt. His crying really irritated me because it was an act.

    1. A Victor says:

      My mother’s tears irritate me for the same reason. Especially when she does them in front of other people who don’t know her like I do, I watch as they’re sucked in. She knows I’m onto her and will give me quick glances, I think concerned I may tell the other party her game. Very frustrating.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        If mother does not know she is a narcissist – shes probably acting on her ‘instincts’ and playing you as well but she is looking at you to see what your ‘reaction’ is. Is she trying to show you up in front of others because you are not ‘responding’ in the same way as them? Narcissists do it in a way to show that they are the victim – not you – in front of others, on purpose…….

        1. A Victor says:

          She is looking for sympathy for herself as my father is dying, yet she has no sympathy for him. She knows I am aware of her feelings toward him and that she is always seeking attention. So I think when she’s done this in front of those who would not understand these two things, she’s is concerned I will give her away and also possibly wanting to show off to me that she’s getting what she desires.

          She has now learned a new, unrelated, way to upset me, it’s happened twice within a few days, it’s crazy to me that she still looks for new ways to control situations and to hurt me, she’s in her 80’s!

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Hmmm. Not surprising re: new ways to control. There’s ‘life’ in her yet…. remember that I mentioned some thing you can do. Sorry to hear about your dad though xx

        2. A Victor says:

          Thank you about my dad, at this point it will be a relief for him even though I will miss him terribly. I don’t remember about “some things you can do” but I will research a bit and figure it out. I have been going through “How to Handle a Parental Narcissist” as I have time and energy to handle it. It is a lot to consider.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            From ‘Escape’ from page 19. I know, not nice to lose a loved one. I’ve experienced loads of losses so it’s more or less ‘gotten used to it’. Yes. A lot to consider. But. Your own wellbeing comes first – remember that. Otherwise you’ll be no good to yourself or anyone else after that xx

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, I finally obtained ‘Escape’ and went to page 19 immediately, thank you. I also see there, not on that page but nearby, that the narcissist deals in energy, that was a surprise but now I may understand the ex machina better. I would’ve thought it was logic they deal in. Can’t wait to read the rest.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Brilliant to know 🙂

  7. A Victor says:

    It is sad that you were deprived even tears for physical pain. Stories like that make me very angry, boys are human beings too, with nerves and pain sensors just like girls.

    The lack of feeling the emotion of sadness is equally as heartbreaking. Is this a physiological difference, a missing gene or some other variation from how normals and empaths develop? Is this a learned thing from before the narcissist can remember? Is this the reason it is impossible for narcissists to change? They just do not have this piece?

    The tears for the Dr was some pretty good acting. Also sad.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Before I subscribed to this site – I did some reading on Empaths and other things. It was interesting to learn that empath DNA from ancestors can be passed on – hence my inheriting from grandmother.

      No human has any ‘genes’ missing. However, there are lots of reasons – just to name a few…

      Humans have natural mental / physical & emotional DNA that can become ‘mutated’, mutations of genes can also occur due to environmental factors where family have lived before (ie Chernobyl & children being born with the affects of the radiation, possibly happens today with their children too); physical injury can also cause someone’s brain ‘pattern’ to change; trauma (especially in children, but can affect older persons ie dementia) can cause someone’s brain / emotions to change (as we all know – empaths behaviours change because of narcissists but can ‘revert’ back, through learning).

      Of the brain – empathy is on the left and pain is on the right.

      1. A Victor says:

        Ah, I have clearly forgotten much of my science from school!

        This is interesting, I didn’t realize that Empaths also, like narcissists, are affected by genetics. This may be getting closer to my question, which I haven’t been able to formulate well yet.

        Empaths can and do change behaviors, even though may be a genetic component and/or other causes for their empathic nature. Since this is true, why is it that narcissists can’t? Hm…is that the right question? Or the best phrasing of it? I don’t know.

        It just seems impossible that one cannot change when one is a thinking individual in control of their choices and behaviors. But, the narcissist doesn’t see the need to change, thus making it more difficult from a starting point. They don’t have emotional empathy and can’t create it and put it in themselves. It is a deficiency then? HG does not seem to have any deficiencies. This would speak to motivation, or more precisely a lack thereof, to change, not having the internal regulator that most of us have. This is thinking out loud again, I realize there may not be any answers, if there were there might be a way to help narcissists.

        Thank you Asp Emp!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Most narcissists do not know what they are, therefore they see no reason to change. Why change when they are not at fault – YOU are at fault, not them.
          Those of us who aware, see no need to change, we are so effective.

          1. A Victor says:

            Okay, I have wondered how much that plays into it and then it’s just a fact to accept, not necessary to understand beyond this. Thank you for your response.

          2. Empath007 says:

            Sometimes I miss being unaware of what I am… I didn’t used to believe I had all these “faults”.

          3. A Victor says:

            Empath007, I’m confused by your comment. Are you a narcissist that’s now aware of faults? Or an empath who is? If an empath, can I ask what faults you are referring to?

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Empath 007,

            Faults are a question of perspective. Personally, I don’t have any faults. I just happen to know a lot of people with a flawed perspective!

        2. Asp Emp says:

          RE: narcissists – sometimes, not always, the brain can ‘shut down’ or a person (especially highly intelligents) can ‘train’ their brain. Empaths can also do this in some regard but because they do not necessarily ‘block’ their pain – it can get ‘stuck’ underneath their own ‘darkness – like it did in my case. I learned to understand myself & past & narcissism – so I was able to ‘move on’ and close that door.

          It is not a ‘deficiency’ – just the way the brain works. HG is a psychopath. That is separate from his narcissism. Yet it combines to make him the person that he is.

          Psychopaths are born. Sociopaths are made. Just like narcissists are made. However, if a child born with psychopath DNA and IF it is observed in the child (average diagnosis age 5.5 years), a child can attend therapy to be ‘trained’ to think differently and lessens the severity of the psychopathy within that child (there are 3 levels of psychopathy – low, medium & high). They would always be a psychopath in the sense of the word, they would never have emotional empathy – yet can be ‘trained’ to obtain cognitive empathy but not emotional. Yet, with a narcissist parent – no chance in hell.

          Sometimes, the ‘pain’ can be too deep or to ‘built-in’ within a person and therapy is not always the answer. Trust, unconditional love & nurturing can ease it but is not necessarily the answer either. Catch-22.

          1. A Victor says:

            Thank you Asp Emp, this is helpful. I will move on now.

        3. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Victor,

          My take on it, some learned opinion here and likely some wishful thinking.

          Empaths are genetically pre disposed to become empaths. It’s there, like eye colour, embedded in the family history.
          The Empath has various empathic and narcissistic traits set to varying levels, this dictates school and cadre. The Empath can change behaviour in that she can dial up or dial down her empathy. She cannot remove it and can’t accurately imagine life without it.

          The narcissist has no emotional empathy. Even the Ultra. The Ultra has exceptional cognitive empathy. In effect, he can express empathy almost perfectly, but not feel it.
          The narcissist sees himself as effective. He doesn’t miss having emotional empathy, as such doesn’t feel a desire for it. Most narcissists believe they are ‘normal’. No desire to change. Aware narcissists of the Greater school relish their narcissism. They enjoy the benefits of it so won’t change. Even Greaters carry a fairly marked awareness deficit.

          The only difference I can see is with the Ultra. This heightened sense of awareness offers a choice. The understanding of when the narcissism took over indicates a memory of pre narcissism. Estimating IQ and earliest childhood memory through to the adoption of full blown narcissism, I’d guess 7 yrs of non narcissistic perspective. If the Ultra can recall pre narcissism then he can also recall real ( albeit under developed) emotional empathy. That could be a foundation on which to develop / relearn a certain degree of emotional empathy. There is then a choice for the Ultra. Currently, the view is he is more effective minus emotional empathy. This is not the same as being unable to retrieve it.

          The catch is psychopathy. If a psychopath is born psychopath and emotional empathy is entirely absent due to genetics, then 7 yrs of pre narcissism is discounted. I haven’t researched psychopathy. My instinctive feeling is that the Ultra would have seven yrs to work with if he chose to. I would ideally wish for HG to have a choice. Even with this choice I seriously doubt he would ever decide to change. Still I would wish him the choice, so it’s there, just in case.

          As I said, some fact, some lack of understanding, some wishful thinking. That about sums me up to be fair.

          1. A Victor says:

            I like your thought that possibly they can remember emotional empathy, and thus develop it. We have always thought that my mother’s development was stunted at about age 3, and, she is not an ultra. So in her case, not really hope I guess. And, not for any others I know personally either.

            This is so helpful. In my case I pushed emotions down because to allow myself to feel them was too painful. But, I always remembered feeling them and knew they were there, somewhere, and very strong, painfully strong. I wouldn’t watch Old Yeller as a kid and my mother teased me about this and made me, it was traumatizing and to this day I can’t watch animal movies if the animal gets hurt. Same with children, women, or even seeing men portrayed as victims. I am big on movies like the Bourne series, where the victim gets justice.

            Anyway, your theory is helpful on both counts, thank you for sharing it!

          2. aspemp says:

            Hi TS. Good comment – as usual. To read you say that an empath can “dial up & dial down on their empathy”. Such a brilliant concept – I hadn’t seen it in that way. I know exactly what you mean though. I’d been thinking along similar in the past week or so… I found myself actually doing that – like a switch – as quickly as flicking the light off or on – upon my choosing. I reckon it’s cos my ET is that low & LT high. This lockdown is a pain in the ass though – I could do with a proper night out! It’s been too long as it is! Knowing the govt – it’s gonna be extended – they said 2nd Dec to avoid serious pandemonium….

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            A Victor,

            If I look back, there are certain things I’ve always done, or certain traits that have always shown themselves. Honesty, need for justice and truthseeker. Others activate a bit later in life I think, almost like you grow into them. Compassion came in strongest after my kids were born. That’s not to say it wasn’t there before, it just lit up more later.

            It makes sense to me that you would react a certain way to films etc as a child. The little empath starting to show herself. Can’t remove it and as a child tough to hide it, even with a narcissistic mother.

            My mum didn’t put any of my empathic side down. More, she didn’t recognise / understand it. My dad did. The conversations we shared just him and I were only really understood by him and I. I think this bond, this shared perspective and the finishing of each other’s sentences no matter how abstract, must have been tough for my mum to watch. I feel sorry for her there. The third wheel in a way.

            I see an empath emerging in my daughter. Very clearly. Difficult to say in my son. Empathic, but not as obvious. The conversations aren’t as deep as with Sophie, but I see it there in his eyes. Sounds strange I know, but his eyes show me everything.

            Empaths are born, or at least they are born empathic, I’m sure of it. Environment then influences how they develop.

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            I think you’re right. If ET is up we react. It’s an automatic thing. As ET starts to fall I think we get more control over our various traits, including the narcissistic traits.

            Doing the EDC gave me awareness of my empathy but ET was high. Now that it is lower I can recognise which parts of my school or cadre are activating. I’m aware enough to clock why now too. So the next logical step would be to channel and direct the traits, including the narcissistic traits in a more targeted way. To achieve a specific outcome, or, to diffuse a negative situation.

            I love the self awareness I have now. I enjoy seeing the empathic traits light up in certain situations. I am unafraid of my narcissistic traits showing. I would just like to channel those better than I do.
            I love seeing them in others on here too. I think I can see my own cadre in others, school is tougher, but I’m learning. It’s a worthwhile exercise. We are learning to spot narcissists for our own protection. We should learn to spot each other for our advantage.

          5. Asp Emp says:

            I think I’m at the stage where it’s up to me whether to be nice or not. I decide, nobody else does – think it’s cos I’m not in real terms ‘influenced’ by the meaning of the word. I saw HG’s recent video on supanovas – I should get an EDC done at some point but I know myself enough to know what I am (think quite enough people do by now)…. ehem. 😂

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Funnily enough I just listened to the Empathic Supernova on YouTube. Never seen so many SE’s in one place before!

            It’s a school that appears attractive in some ways, I kind of get why people would like to be in that school. For me though, you either are an empath or you aren’t. The school just describes the behaviours, the trait configuration. I don’t really see one school as being more desirable than another. I see being an empath as being desirable. Once you know you are one, the school identifies drivers in my view, so you need to know your school for this reason.I think Cadre is more important over all. I think people behave more as their cadre than their school.

            As for the EDC I would say to anyone, take it. It’s fundamental in understanding exactly how you are constructed. Lead school, lead cadre, great, but this is way more detailed than that. We are a mix of schools (usually) and cadres (usually). Many of us have a lead school and cadre then significant minority elements. These minority elements come into play a lot. For example, I know I am my lead cadre, but, I use my minority cadre more often. So my minority is my day to day and my lead will overtake everything but only in certain situations. Understanding this really adds insight, it does for me anyway. The EDC and TDC are absolutely fascinating. HG at his absolute best in my view.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Valid and solid observations, TS. I still think I might get a T-Shirt printed “I’m a Super Empath and I beat a Greater Narcissist”. Sure you did! There are some who are narcissists who think they are Super Empaths, there are more who are mistaken (and it is an honest mistake) as they mistake the Cliff Fightback for going Supernova. One discerning feature is that Super Empaths do not go around telling everybody that that is what they are!

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Whether I am or not a SE – I certainly wouldn’t wear anything to advertise that.

          9. Asp Emp says:

            Ok. Thanks for your suggestions. I’ll get one done. It’s going to be interesting as my aspergers will also have an impact on the results. No doubt HG will suggest which DC to take first….

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ha ha, yes do it HG!


            ‘ I am a Super Empath and beat a Greater Narcissist!’

            Back: (small letters)

            ‘Unaware Narcissist’

            Imagine the “Yay!” Then the “Huh?” I think I just got some thought fuel from that. I’ll ponder that when I’ve finished my tea.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha very good.

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            I did the Empath Detector first then I left a gap and did the Trait Detector when my ET was lower. The cynical side of me. I wanted to corroborate the first consult with the second. Even though my ET was at different levels when I took each consult, the TDC matched up perfectly with the EDC. It’s impressive when you consider how those consults fit together and the calculations that must run in the background.

            EDC is all about School and Cadre, how those are made up for you. All the elements you carry and by percentage. I then went back and read about the various schools and cadres and placed them in context.

            TDC is all about your traits. Which empathic traits you carry and to what strength, same for the narcissistic traits and then how both sets fit together. It’s similar in concept to the EDC but it drills down into greater detail trait by trait. I was surprised by a few of my traits and grumbled to HG about a couple of others ha ha.

            Honestly, we learn so much about the narcissist here but actually once we make room to look at the empath, we are far more complicated. There’s a subtlety there, lots of similarities but some real differences. With your mind, the way you think about things and turn things round, you will love these two detectors. I don’t know enough about Aspergers to know if this would impact. The consults are scenario based in many ways so I wouldn’t think there would be an impact. I’m sure HG could safeguard this in some way given that he knows.

            I know you wouldn’t wear a t shirt with school or cadre on it ha ha. Take a look at the comments for the YouTube Supernova vid over the next few days and you’ll see what we’re chuckling about there.

          13. Asp Emp says:

            Alright – thank you for further info on the EDC / TDC. The Empath is more “complicated” ?! (nah, impossible, sniggering). RE: aspergers (Google summary of characteristics
            & you will understand cos you know about narcissism) – apparently it can be confused with narcissism cos of the similarities in some of the characteristics ie laughing “inappropriately” that ‘square’ people just don’t get about me – they don’t understand my sense of humour either. My mind can interest narcissists as well as my empathic traits – yet the narcs didn’t really know why. I think I’d find ‘normals’ too boring. I need intellectual convos or I’d get bored. HG probably understands what I mean. Ok I’ll read youtube comments – thanks for the heads up. PC out of action at mo – needs factory reset but will do that Monday with IT support from MS. Files ok cos backed up. Mobile is android 4.4 OS hence less opps to maximise comms. Thanks again xx (thanks HG for moderating x)

          14. Asp Emp says:

            Hey TS. YouTube comments 😂😂 some of these people have no idea! HG this was before I joined KTN – I found an article about empaths becoming the N’s N – it was described exactly what happened & how I felt leading up to the supanova – your video also describes it – especially the reaction of the N’s I directed mine at (sniggering). Couldn’t believe reading a responder’s “using a lot of energy in a supanova” – what utter BS. It’s exactly like a volcano releasing built up magma – the initial explosion followed by the underground lava continuing to flow out – that is how I felt. I didn’t feel tired afterwards (not drained energy wise) – if anything, I was still ‘fired’ up. Yet at the same time I was ‘depleted’ emotionally. The emotions depletion & build up to supanova took about 4 months of ‘simmering’. I still wouldn’t wear a t-shirt – I’d get a tattoo !!

          15. HG Tudor says:

            Some of the comments on YouTube lead to mass minion roasting.

          16. Asp Emp says:

            Would you like horseradish sauce with that, Sir? Or maybe, Sir would prefer mint sauce? (😂😂)

  8. Asp Emp says:

    “No tears HG,” she announced firmly, “tears show fears, be fearless,” she instructed me as she cast a cursory glance over my injury and directed me to the cold water tap. Tears came from physical hurt but it was not to be for me.

    What a b**ch. So cold. So uncaring. So ‘distanced’. Not acceptable. At all. Words from an empath, who also ‘endured’ and the view from someone who has emotions – not a bad thing. But FFS.

    1. leelasfuelstinks says:

      Of course she´s “cold” and has no empathy. H.G.s mama is a narcissist.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Yes, I know. I also know what it is like, not to be allowed the freedom to be a child in the way nature intended and stunting the child’s natural development as a human – narcissism or not.

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Are you an ACON (adult child of a narcissist) too? In my case it´s my father who is the narc. 🙁

          1. Asp Emp says:

            It’s no longer applicable – considered as an ‘orphan’ now but a fully fledged adult.

            I suppose I was and the ‘matrinarc’s abuse’ stopped when I was 30 years old, then dies years later. Then I (unfortunately for me) got “entangled” with narcissists in intimate relationships. Now, I’ve ‘weaponised’ my mind & emotions – so I should be able to spot the narcissist in the future but can decide on friendships or not (as I have mentioned in a couple of comments recently).

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I´m so sorry what happened to you. 🙁 I have more than 20 years of abuse from PatriNarc, an upper midrange somatic, behind me. 🙁

          3. Asp Emp says:

            Don’t be sorry for what happened to me – you didn’t do anything. I don’t expect sympathy from other people – only understanding & acceptance of what and who I am. I hope your learning will help you in relation to your Patrinarc x

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