Stare : The Narcissist´s Stare

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The stare. The eyes feature prominently in an engagement with another person. You look into someone’s eyes to read them, to allow them to read you, you look away from someone in order to convey certain emotions, you fail to meet somebody’s gaze to convey others. I have written about the eyes of our kind previously but let us turn to a specific element of the use of eyes in the narcissistic dynamic and that is the stare.

Ordinarily, staring at another person is considered to be rude and ill-mannered, although it may denote fascination and even infatuation, but even that stare from a besotted admirer can be regarded as rude, never mind the unending gaze of a passer-by who cannot believe what he or she is witnessing. The stare when deployed by our kind takes on a different application altogether and it manifests at different times during your engagement with us.

  1. The Stare in Seduction

It is not used by all of our kind, but if you have been subjected to it, you will know it and you will remember it well. It was the time when those brilliant blue eyes locked with your own eyes and stared deep inside of you. Those flashing emerald eyes appeared transfixed as they stared at you. The rich brown eyes which seemed to melt as they gazed at you wavering. Whatever colour our eyes are, when you first received that seductive stare, the colour seemed to become brighter, the light shone in them and the intensity of our gaze was immense. It was not so much as being looked at, but rather an event in itself. Our steady stare was unusual as you probably had not experienced it from anyone else previously. You wanted to look away, torn between a sense of discomfort but the mesmerising quality of our eyes kept you looking back into them.

At that moment, our relentless gaze told you that you and only you mattered. There was nothing else of consequence in the universe. The background drained away, the surrounding sounds became muted and all distractions were removed. We wanted to show you that our devotion to you was beyond anything else. Only by allowing us to stare at you for such a long time were we able to convey the depths of our love, the vastness of our desire for you, the sheer scale of our need to be with you. Time slowed and then stood still, your skin tingled from the experience of this tantalising stare. Your breath caught in your lungs, your face seemed to flush and the wave of addiction washed across you, sending a shiver up and down your spine, around your neck and twisting your stomach. In that instant we became your universe as we showed you the world in our eyes.

Yet, what you really looked on as those two eyes continued to bore deep into you, was yourself. We commenced this engagement by staring at you for an unconventional length of time and this would make you feel both uncomfortable and captivated so that you would then show us what was in your eyes. You would reveal to us your desire, your love, your hopes, your wants and your dedication. All we did was mirror back at you what you showed to us, amplified through the auspices of the mimicry for which we have become known. In that moment as we held your gaze from across the table, or after that kiss, or as we lay on top of you, we showed you yourself and thus sowed the seeds that caused you to fall in love with us, but really it was with yourself. That is why your love became something beyond anything that you had ever experienced before. That is why it was deep, powerful and absolute, because your subconscious saw what it wanted to see and this fired-up powerful and immense responses in you.

The world whirled in our eyes, your world. We offered limitless possibilities through the promise we mirrored back at you and by keeping you in this gaze we told you that we wanted you above anything and everything else. We wanted you. We wanted you. We wanted YOU. That desire for you which shone in our eyes was actually our desire to control you, for your fuel, for your character traits and for those residual benefits. Of course, since you did not know who you were dealing with, you honestly mistook that stare of desire as us wanting you, the person. That is not the case.

This steady, magnetic stare is of course not utilised by all narcissists. Where deployed by the Lesser or Mid-Range Narcissist, they do believe they want you for being you, their narcissism does not allow them to know the genuine reason they want you nor why they are staring so intently at you. The Greater and Ultra know precisely what we are doing and why.

The stare in seduction demonstrates our sense of entitlement to keep looking at you, the sense of ownership (we look on you like some expensive painting or enticing motor vehicle that belongs to us), our lack of emotional empathy (we have no interest if this stare makes you feel somewhat uncomfortable or embarrassed to receive such attention). It exhibits our lack of boundary recognition and is a form of manipulation designed to benignly assert control over you directly.

  1. The Stare in Devaluation: Neutrality

In ‘Why Does He Seem Like A Different Person’, I explained about the stranger setting where the person who once lit up your life, becomes like a stranger, almost robotic. This is a change which occurs as the devaluation begins. It is not always present as some of our kind move straight into the dark abuses of the devaluation from the off, but there is a precursor to this when the person who once walked in with a cheery smile and a kiss, just enters and sits down, devoid of any prevailing emotion.

If you experience this, then you may also experience the stare at this juncture. This will be a hollow gaze which is accentuated by the blank expression that accompanies it. It is not a look of confusion or misapprehension; it is not a look of dimwittedness but is instead the empty stare of an empty person. You are looking at the void that exists within all of our kind. This represents the crossroads. The seductive stare glowed, fizzed and shone with the fabricated positive emotions which would cause you to respond with positive fuel. That has gone. The darkness of the devaluation has not yet commenced and its drawing of the negative fuel. Instead, you are looking at the in-between. The eyes which are devoid of warmth or hatred, empty of passion or malice, just a blank stare which conveys the void within.

This will cause you to become confused. It will have you ask whether everything is alright and have you wondering what has happened. You will be mystified as to where those mesmeric and scintillating gazes have gone. Why are you no longer looked at with that piercing and uplifting look? Where have we gone? If we had a soul, it is as if it has been sucked from within us, leaving only this husk behind. You cannot complain that you are being badly treated, since no abuses have yet been deployed against you. This empty and robotic stare is a warning of what is to come and should you see it in those you engage with, heed it and make good your departure because it is signaling to you that a far worse stare awaits you.

  1. The Stare in Devaluation: Malice

This, perhaps, is the stare that most associate with our kind. When you are subjected to our malicious stare, our eyes darken, emphasised by the contortion of our features which makes us appear like something else. The glowing greens, brilliant blues and blissful browns have vanished. The glinting grey eyes are no more, the halcyon hazel has been banished and instead a dark and glowering black has taken their place.

This gaze will cause you to shrink back under its impact. The hatred that is embodied in the inky darkness will turn you cold, send ice through your heart and is enough to even cause you to burst into tears. Terror will grip you because when this stare is deployed against you, you are seeing the evil in our core. The pure, unadulterated hatred which we have for you. It is seething, dense and vicious. It bears down on you, reminding you of your weaknesses and vulnerabilities, a blackened glare which keeps on driving at you, pressing down on you, forcing you to feel small and wretched.

You may have caught the occasional malicious glance from us, just a flash of hatred, but that is something else. Those glimpses were warnings which could only be used for an instant to avoid detection by third parties and the fracturing of the façade. This is a stare. Sometimes it may be accompanied by hissed words of threat and insult. Sometimes it is cloaked in silence, the balefulness a clear warning that a period of silence will now be visiting you.

The person that you thought we were will be utterly absent. Your world has been annihilated in an instant and replaced by two orbs of glinting black, which tell you that you are hated. Totally hated and that much worse will be visited on you in conjunction with this stare of concentrated evil.

  1. The Stare in the Discard

This is perhaps witnessed if you are actually told of your discard. More often, it appears post discard when you try to see us, to plead with us for answers, to beg us to take you back and so forth. This stare is one of pure contempt. Disdain and distaste for you. How on earth did we come to couple with one so weak, so pathetic and so disgusting as you. You make us shudder to think that we once even looked at you with favour, love and longing. The annoyance that we feel at choosing someone like you is thrust to one side to be overridden by a contemptuous stare, that is designed to weaken you in your tracks and tell you that in no uncertain terms we want nothing to do with you. We have someone far better. This stare is to urge you to keep away and to forbid you from reminding us that we once promised you the world. We do not want to remember such matters. Somebody else receives those promises now. You are an unfortunate reminder of a part of us which we prefer to keep locked away and this stare conveys this through contempt and loathing.

  1. The Stare in the Hoover

The Malign Follow-Up Hoover as you would expect applies the same approach as the malicious stare detailed above. Should we make contact with you for the purposes of trying to convince you to return to us, whether it is post-discard or post-escape, we will look to hold your gaze once again. This time those eyes of ours will shine again but with hope, longing and contrition. Vulnerability, sorrow and remorse may appear to loom large in the rounded and pleading gaze which we now hold you in.

Once more this is pure artifice. All we are doing is mirroring what you show to us. The hope that we might have seen the error of our ways. The longing for us to come to the realisation that we have done wrong. The sorrow for a person who must behave in this manner. The remorse that you engaged with someone so vile. The longing that you have for the golden period to shine once again. It is all manufactured as we mirror back to you what we see but for the purposes of hoodwinking you once again and with mealy-mouthed assurances and never to be delivered promises, we hook you back into our grasp.

The stare is a prominent weapon when we engage with you. It is a device that fabricates those emotions we do not possess and allows you to see the reality of who you have entangled with when you look up on the emptiness and shrink from the malice.





131 thoughts on “Stare : The Narcissist´s Stare

  1. Cup Cakes says:

    Once they never felt they were in control they would behave aggressively.

  2. Cup Cakes says:

    Mine would stare at the wall for hours.A flat expression.Delusional

    1. Another Cat says:

      This so resonates with me, Cupcakes.

      At 17, my first boyfriend did this a lot, looking nice and content at the wall, not falling asleep like I would have if forced to stare at a wall for a long time,

      so I thought, well men are probably like this, comfortable and confident.

      And I remember also guessing that this calm stare is a part of privileged life; his parents were very well off if I remember correctly.

      1. Cup Cakes says:

        So true…

      2. Cup Cakes says:

        I was thinking back how pathetic it was for my children to get neglected by there narcissist parent and then the narcissist parent turns around and tell the children how alone they feel.Very manipulating.They just dont realize.

  3. Cup Cakes says:

    My ex had the stare.The evil stare.

  4. Asp Emp says:

    Ok. Let’s play.



  5. Eternity says:

    You can tell so much about a person from just looking into their eyes.

  6. Liza says:

    I don’t know if it is the same thing but the stare i noticed in the narcissists i know is not especialy malevolent or sacary but it is more like they don’t know when to stop, they look and look and keep looking, i notice it a lot because i have great trouble withstanding eyecontact and i feel verry awkward when i feel someone’s stare on me.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hi Liza,

      I think for me it depends on the stare. There is that look you up and down thing too. That enrages me and makes me uncomfortable. Women seem to do that more than men. I’ve seen my mum do it to people occasionally but subtly. It’s an evaluation, a summing up. It riles, because it’s a pointless exercise, you can’t get a fix on someone that way.

      The stare from the narc wasn’t in a physical context, it was a ‘locking on’. An intensity that I actually really liked. Maybe I’m just weird !

      1. A Victor says:

        I’ve often felt that the once over by women is either aggressive or pitying, neither of which endears them to me.

      2. Liza says:

        Hello Truthseeker6157 ,

        Absolutely ! the up and down look is nearly always done by women and you can almost hear her judging you , a friend of my mom would even tilt her head like she is trying to have a 360° view .
        The stare from men seems to be intended like something romantic but most of the time it is overdone, weird and sometimes it is even gross, like i juste can’t wait to go wash myself. My ex does it but he does it on purpose, he knows that it make me unconfortable and he openly told me that he likes to bully me.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Then I’m very glad that your ex is your ex! You never hear that line in a romantic film do you? ‘ I really enjoy bullying you, and by the way, I think you are my soulmate.’ Is this the ex that you think might be a narcissist? The reason you found the blog?

          1. Liza says:


            Yes, it is the narcissist that made me discover this blog (or to be more accurate the youtube channel) he was the only narcissist that had a real impact on me because i felt defeated by him, the narssists in my familly are people who i’m not obligated to interact with and have no power over me, i only give them the time of the day because they are family, i don’t want to give them the chance to think that my parents gave me a bad educaton, and they are older than me so i treat them with respect like i would have done to any other elder person in the streets, but i never realised what they are, i juste didn’t like their ways.

            ‘ I really enjoy bullying you, and by the way, I think you are my soulmate.’ haha this line would have made any romance movie win an Oscar.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’m pleased you found the blog. You’re in the right place now to fully understand what happened to you and to get the support you need from others here who have shared similar experiences. HG provides the cold hard logic, the empaths provide the emotional support. We’re enjoying the YouTube Ultra channel too, but our hearts really are here on the blog.

            Considering how tough the subject matter can be at times, I think you will find that actually this is a nice place to be. There are some really fun and interesting people on the blog. For me, it is the safest place to learn and recover. Welcome 😊

          3. Liza says:

            Thank you for your warl welcom Truthseeker6157 <3 <3 <3 but i'm actually not new on the blog, it has been a year since i started visiting it and i love this place, but i have less and less time to spend here lately so i don't allow myself to visit too often because when i visite i tend to spend too much time here #timeManagmentIssues.

        2. Liza says:

          warl = warm; sorry i didn’t see it until i clickend on the send button -_-‘

          1. Trutthseeker6157 says:


            I’m so sorry! I didn’t recognise your name and with all the You Tube activity assumed you had just arrived. I know what you mean about time management. I have sacrificed what little tv I used to watch to the blog ha ha. Mind you, this place is way more interesting than what UK TV has to offer.
            I think it’s wise to check in Liza. I should say,“ Welcome back”! 😊

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Liza,
            Absolutely no need to apologise here lovely, we all (mainly me) haha make mistakes.
            If I apologised, that would take up all my comments 🤣
            We very much welcome your voice more often 💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. l says:

            No worries Trutthseeker6157 i recognise that my comment was ambiguous.

            Thank you Bubbles, you are verry nice.

            Luv Liza XoXo ( i borrowed your signature ^^)

      3. Another Cat says:

        That look you up and down thing? I guess if I see a new person do this, I’ll know from now on that’s a narcissist.

        Usually it’s depicted as a typical gesture done by upper class ppl. But maybe it’s just an NPD thing, then.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Another Cat,

          It’s definitely an assessment and most times it is pretty overt, so it might be an indicator. Either way it does beg the question about the thinking behind such an assessment based on appearance alone.

          It certainly makes me bristle!

          1. NarcAngel says:

            The up and down thing can be useful and effective at times. When my narcky traits are out in dealing with someone rude or abusive I have given them the slow up and down and back to their eyes to let them know they are on my radar. There was a woman in my office for instance who often ridiculed other peoples wardrobes. On many an occasion when close to her I delighted in staring at some part of her clothing, hair, or bag a little too long and then look quickly away with a slightly bemused expression when she noticed. I could see her annoyed and wondering what was amiss and she would usually excuse herself (likely to check). Smiling while removing a non-existent hair from their clothing or motioning that their tag is out while they are talking is another amusement.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            NA, I love that. And the staring at the forehead experiment I mentioned a while ago here, remember? That works well too.

          3. Another Cat says:


            “There was a woman in my office for instance who often ridiculed other peoples wardrobes.”

            You did a duty to human decency by letting her taste her own medicine.

          4. Alexissmith2016 says:

            It’s really interesting reading how others use their stare. When I was younger I’d use the stare more directly and call people out. Now I have to be put in a really bad mood to use it in an obvious way so that the other person can see. I literally cannot bear anyone to see that they’ve bothered me, even more so since HG.

            More typically I will smile and be lovely, making sure I use my eyes to smile too and not just my mouth. but then I can’t help but make sure they pay for whatever they’ve done at some later stage. Nothing really bad, just like for like. I will still call people out sometimes, but I save that for when it’s really necessary. Generally speaking I’m far more surreptitious.

        2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Another Cat,
          Damn, I was told I do that head to toe look 👀
          It’s totally subconscious. I look at people mainly to admire what they’re wearing and to see if I can find something at the op shop and pull it off, it’s a fashion thing for me
          If someone stands out from the crowd, I have been known to approach them to tell them how stunning they look

          I’ve also always done it as a self protection thing and being aware of my environment and people !

          I used to play ‘staring’ games with my kids, first one to blink was out
          I was usually the first, then we’d all start laughing…it was quite fun !

          My mother’s a natural ….her stare goes right thru you and chills the heart …..oh boy, if looks could kill 😱
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Asp Emp says:

            “Damn, I was told I do that head to toe look” LOLOLOL. I do it too!! If someone is standing and appearing to ‘challenge’ me – like an UMRN at work – they hated me and my ballsy & daring to ‘challenge’ them in that way – I am doing that as if to say (but not saying it) – Who are you to…. to me? I love my attitude and that is one thing I carry with pride and not need to wear a badge for (sniggering).

          2. A Victor says:

            Bubbles, I forgot about the staring game, I played it with my kids also, very fun! Thanks for the reminder!

          3. Another Cat says:

            Bubbles, ok so it’s you or NarcAngel or someone else!

            The staring game is huge at my house. The kids live it. The first one to laugh is toast.


          4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            You appear to have way bigger ‘cogliones’ than me …. snigger snigger ! 😂
            The Work place is different again I feel, it’s the challenge and rank look haha
            There’s definitely a huge difference between THE LOOK, which I feel is more ‘judgemental’ based compared with THE STARE which Mr Tudor described to perfection !
            I don’t like it when people don’t make eye contact with you when you’re talking (Mr Bubbles has a habit of doing this, however, in his defence, he’s actually fallen asleep, it’s worse when he starts snoring ) 🤣

            Beware of the stare, especially from Karen! Haha
            Here’s looking at you kid ! 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. Asp Emp says:

            Hello Bubbles 🙂 I’d be walking like John Wayne if I had a “package” (LOLOL). Agree RE workplace narcissists & the look / stare etc. So glad I am no longer there. I was brought up to communicate with eye contact – not an easy thing as people with ‘aspergers’ tend not to make eye contact….. (so, in my view – it is rude not to have eye contact) = Catch 22 situation. If you are referring to Karen from the supermarket…… I’ll have a go at her if she comes near me without a mask again….. she’d better not cross me in the aisle where the tinned food is….. (sniggering).

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Oh, Bubbles….. I thought ‘Who the hell is John Holmes?’ – googled (sniggering) – yes, I did actually mean John Wayne!!

          7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Asp Emp,
            You did mean John Wayne and not John Holmes…yes ? 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          8. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            Phew 😅
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Another Cat,
          I’m definitely not upper class , nor would I want to be ! 😂
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Another Cat says:

            Haha, I get it Bubbles!
            This thread confused me in the beginning. I got the impression some had only seen the top down stare made by narcs.
            I rarely stare, and haven’t tried the top down yet but have been exposed to it.

            Now that I see many of you say you use it, I’m convinced we’re all Upper class fur coat snob squad!
            😄 ❤️

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Another Cat,
            Hahaha you’re a cool cat !
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest A Victor,
          You’re most welcome precious
          They’re the best kind of family games and don’t cost you anything
          The other one is clapping each other hand together til you move in sync … the kids loved it, silly but simple …. bit like me 😂
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. A Victor says:

            Bubbles, that does sound like fun! I’ll give it a try with my grandkids, they’ll love it! Lol, I’ll do the staring one with them too, now that you reminded me of it! Silly but simple are some of the best ones! 🙂

  7. A Victor says:

    I think I may have said this somewhere here before, if so I apologize. My mother used “the stare” to control us, around our dad, around anyone but especially him. She also forced eye contact during anger fits and after disciplines. To this day I have trouble knowing appropriate eye contact and usually avoid it if possible unless I know the person very well.

    I tried “the stare” on one of my kids once, just to see their reaction. The child at that time was about 12. She looked blankly at me and then gave a puzzled look. I had to explain what I was doing. This made me very happy.

  8. Whitney says:

    HG, you are rich inside.

    I’ve experienced this stare. Your work is most validating and eye-opening.

  9. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Not all of “my” narcs have it. From the six narcs I know, two of them do The Stare. And I know, H.G., you wrote, you can do it. 🙂

    But something else struck me: their smile! They all have almost the same fake smile, mostly with the mounth closed and the eyes remain open, cold and emotionless. It looks like they don´t dare to really smile (they can´t). Of course it´s not a dead giveaway but it just struck me when I looked at the pictures of all “my” narcs (yes, I kept them as a warning and I could google the pics of former boss and former co-worker). Sam Vaknin exhibits THIS fake smile too. While they fake-smile, their eyes remain totally open and empty!

    1. Witch says:

      I can’t tell the difference between a narc and a non-narc by their stare/eyes, it doesn’t register with me. I don’t understand the “dead eyes” thing, all I see are plain old eyes.
      I can only tell by their behaviour, what they say and how they say it

      1. Empath007 says:

        Then you have not experienced “the stare” … because if you’d had, you wouldn’t forget it. Only one narc I’ve dealt with used it, so they don’t all use it or they don’t all use it on appliances.

        The evil stare though… it’s like the devil himself has entered their bodies 😂

        The romantic one I never deem romantic anymore though, more of a “ I shall possess you. You are now mine as you’ve come into my sights” is what I get from it now.

        1. Witch says:

          Do you mean when they are angry? I’ve experienced the angry stare from the ex but that’s just angry body language to me.
          Generally speaking (like when they are just sitting there “normally” I can’t see the difference in the eyes.)

          1. Empath007 says:

            When they are “normal” I can’t see the difference either. In fact, the ones I’ve known have had some great smiles… magnetic smiles that did not seem “fake”.

            Mine would stare at me across a room. And I had never seen someone look at me like that before. I remember at the time I loved it, felt like I was the leading lady in a romantic movie because it was just like we see on camera.

            Otherwise they blend in. Which is too bad for us hahah they really should all have a horn sticking out of their heads so we could easily identify haha.

          2. Witch says:


            The more I learn about about them the more I realise the narcs of the lower end are pretty awful at trying to fit in. Their paranoia and need for control is easy to spot early.
            I haven’t had a personal experience with anyone higher than a middle Mid-Ranger though, so I’m not sure how “good” the rest are at fitting in

        2. leelasfuelstinks says:

          The Stare always reminded me on “Hannibal Lecter” 😀

          Thanks goodness PatriNarc doesn´t have The Stare! Would haven been even more creepy growing up with a narc-parent. 😀

          1. A Victor says:

            Hannibal Lector, that is a good analogy for what I experienced also.

      2. BC30 says:

        I never encountered the stare, so much as a long pause; as if there was a glitch and they were assessing their environment and rolling through the database in their minds for what to say or do next.

      3. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Have a look at Ryan giggs eyes Witch. He has the deadest of dead eyes I’ve ever seen. But actually not that many narcs have dead eyes but when they do it’s a complete ans instant give away. No interaction required.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The fact he played for Manchester United tells you all you need to know.

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Indeed HG

        2. Witch says:

          I can see that in most pictures he looks like he just caught his wife cheating but then that could be because he’s playing a competitive sport as to why to looks like a slapped bottom. It also looks like he has quite large pupils. Other than that I can’t really tell the difference
          When he’s smiling he looks like a normal person to me

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Just seen this witch. Really, that’s so interesting how you can’t see it.

            Pre knowledge I used to wonder why the hell their eyes were so dead, I had presumed at the time they must have been through an awful lot in their life and somehow switched off their emotions as a coping mechanism. I had no idea they were just nasty little cretins.

            What interests me post knowledge is why only a very small number of Ns have dead eyes? What is that about? They’re all as empty inside so why don’t they all have dead eyes?

            There is another look I see in the eyes of some Ns, usually when they’re up to something. I can only liken it to the shifty look an Alsatian gives before it bites someone. I am a complete dog lover by the way, including alsatians. I’m sure that same look is present in all different breeds of dog at one time or another. (I just happen to have seen it in alsatians). Only the narcy dogs though. Not the empaths.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            I read & understand what you say. Narcissists are people – just like you. They may have what you call ‘dead eyes’ – have you seriously experienced trauma or anything as such as a child? Seen anything “unbelievable” with your own eyes? Have you experienced something that “took away part of your soul”? No narcissist is “dead” inside. Narcissists have experienced something that makes them have “shifty” looks. An Alsatian dog is reacting on it’s own instincts….. just like a narcissist is…..

      4. Leigh says:

        Witch, there stare can be quite intense. Not all of them have it. My husband does not, neither does my mother. The narc that brought me to this site had a very intense stare. During seduction it was extremely seductive and during sex it was hot and erotic. During corrective devaluations and the post discard it was cold and unnerving. Now he stares at me in the parking lot. I act like I don’t know he’s there. And its creepy as hell. I believe that narc was an MMR B.

        Empath007, I felt the same way in the beginning. No one had ever looked at me like that before. I thought it was romantic and it really turned me on.

        1. Empath007 says:

          HI Leigh, are you married to a narc as well and had an affair with another ? Interesting your husband did not use the stare in the seduction phase… guess he had other means, mine was a workplace romance as well, perhaps because they can’t come right out and proclaim their “love” in front of co workers they decide the stare is a nice silent (but most importantly ambiguous) way of getting the job done. Cause what are we gonna say ? ” He’s staring at me .. make it stop ?” lol.

          1. Leigh says:

            Empath007, yes, I had an affair and it was in the workplace too. Yes, I believe my husband is a narcissist too. It’s the workplace narc that brought me to this site. I dont let people in. My wall is always up. He broke my wall down. He made me feel things I didn’t even know existed and I gave in to him. He pursued me for two years. I really thought I meant something to him so I caved. Then during yet another silent treatment, I came to site. And BAM! My whole life was turned upside down. I realized that both my parents and my husband are narcissists too. I’ve been on this site for 19 months. Its just the last two months, I’ve realized I’m surrounded by them. I’ve been with my husband for 35 years and was so used to the dissonance. I grew numb to it. For some reason, with the workplace narc, it was much more intense. Probably because I fell for him and fell hard.

          2. Empath007 says:

            Our stories are somewhat similar Leigh. I was not married but on the tail end of a long term relationship… in the midsts of that ending the work narc seduced me. I was vulnerable, felt unlovable etc. He made me feel alive again, as if I was a woman who deserved to be noticed. The state played a large initial role in that. So I know what you mean, the breakup with him was far more intense then the one with my long term partner. he didn’t pursue me for 2 years but gathered bits of info on me during that time.

            Anyways that’s history now. Since I’ve learnt the only person who’s ever really going to love me… is me. So I’d best get good at accepting myself.

            You’re still married I take it ? Do you still work with your narc ? If so, how do you manage it all without falling back into the affair ?

          3. Leigh says:

            HI Empath, yes, I’m still married and yes I still work at the same job. How do I manage it? I have no idea. You could say that I haven’t conquered my addiction quite yet and I’m a glutton for punishment.

            The man I had an affair with is a narc and he disengaged with me so I didn’t have to worry about him starting the affair again. He wasn’t interested. Its been over for 19 months. Most of the time he left me alone. I think I’m in a ping pong scenario between his wife and I. While with me, she was painted black and he didn’t wear his ring. Then when she was white again, I was painted black and the ring went back on. Now the hoovering is coming on full force. He even apologized. It started in September, he really started coming on strong but I’m thwarting his efforts. Now she’s in the black again and the ring is off again.

            I think he’s a middle, mid range B, so I don’t think he will start the affair again. I remember Mr. Tudor once saying that mid rangers have shriveled up balls. That’s my mid ranger, for sure. I don’t believe he has the balls to start it again.
            It will have to be me to initiate it and I won’t allow myself to go there again. Even when the affair originally started, it was me who initiated it. He pursued me for two years and I made the first move. Not him. He won’t make the first move because he’s afraid of me rejecting him, which I will.

          4. Empath007 says:

            im Still working for the same company too… 2 years out… I have no fucking idea how I do it either ! He sends others to Hoover me. It’s been sparadic over the years. He’s never shown up himself though… and I never even considered it could be because he’d be afraid of rejection…do narcs even think they could be rejected ? Lol. I think in my case he’s so pompous he doesn’t give a shit. He figures if I come crawling back… great… but if I don’t he has plenty of other fuel he can utilize. I’ve even recently unblocked him from social media to see if he’d take the bait … nothing. My thoughts are he has too much pride to bother. He’d much rather I come crawling back. That’s far more entertaining. I haven’t. So I do sort of wonder if its bothering him. Haha. But I doubt it. After 2 years he’s moved on. And that’s totally Ok. The good news ?? I look fucking GREAT these days, so every time I run into one of his dumb friends I hope they report back what a knock out I am ! And I hope it eats away at his jealousy a bit haha!

          5. Leigh says:

            Empath007, I remember reading in one of Mr. Tudor’s articles that the mid range will dip their toe first because of fear or rejection. I think if you reject them with no emotion, it will wound them. If you reject them, while pouring out emotion such as anger or crying, it will fuel them but it will be challenge fuel since you are rejecting them. I don’t know if fear is the right word but they certainly don’t like it.

            I’m going to sound like the pot calling the kettle black. I think your ET may be a little high because you’re wondering if he’s thinking about you and you unblocked him to see if he will take the bait. I can see the ET in other people but I can’t or won’t see it in myself. Anyway, who cares if he’s thinking about you. Like you said, you’re in the best shape of your life. You don’t need him. He doesn’t deserve you. No, he probably won’t take the bait. It has to be on his terms. He has to be the one in control. But again, who cares, he’s not worth it. It will be empty and you deserve so much more than that. Please be careful. I think you’re setting yourself up to get hurt again.

          6. A Victor says:

            Leigh, this is a bit off topic but with regard to your comment that mid rangers dip their toe, I am curious which ones jump in unafraid? Could you direct me to that info? I probably already have it somewhere but there is so much, things get lost sometimes.

          7. Leigh says:

            A Victor, that’s really a question for Mr. Tudor. Also, my dealings have all been with mid rangers but I’ll take a crack at it. Lessers & Greaters tend to have less fear than mid rangers. Of course, the Ultra has no fear at all. Lessers tend to be a bull in a china shop. They have no self control, erupt rather easily and maintain no facade. . Greaters know the power they have and are methodical and manipulative. There is so much info on this blog. I don’t even know where to begin. I would definitely recommend Pipelines. That’s a really good start. Search for The COVID soundbites also. It will give you a good idea on how each different narcissist operates. You could also search Lee the Lesser, Malcolm the Mid Ranger and Greg the Greater. Hope that helps.

          8. Empath007 says:

            Hi Leigh.
            Yes, my ET has been high since the start of the pandemic. I don’t deny it but it’s under control. Especially considering how many things we are all faced with right now. I think we all need to cut ourselves a little slack.

            I was going to give the same advice to you. You say you made the first move but the truth is… you caved to all of his manipulation. Had he not relentlessly pursued you. You would not have made the first move at all. He made the first move… you just reacted to it.

            I won’t tell you to quit your job because I know first hand that’s not always an option. But be careful. Narcs are very patient. He’s not too concerned about when you come around because in his mind it’s only a matter of time. And he has other fuel sources to keep him busy. The truth is … they relentlessly pursue for their own entertainment.

            You take care ❤️ I’ve blocked mind again. My ET is not under control but it will be again if I keep coming here.

          9. Leigh says:

            Empath007, you’re so right, my ET is high. And yes, I suppose he made the first move and I just reacted. This is my problem, I’m constantly making excuses for these MOFOs. I agree, if I keep coming here, I will eventually stop making excuses for all of them and more importantly stop making excuses for not leaving. That’s why I love it here, this site always shows me what I need to see.

          10. Empath007 says:

            You’re my hero working in the same office… at least I was able to transfer locations, I couldn’t imagine having to see him everyday – so considering it sounds like you’ve got it together and are doing very well ! On top of that to balance your husband not trying to find out.. man… I would have blabbed all of it hahaha. hang in there Leigh! I will do my best too ! Dam Narcissists. lol.

          11. Leigh says:

            Empath007, thank you for being my cheerleader. I appreciate your kind words. Knowing that they are narcissists makes it easier. I know its not about me. Its just about whoever is there in the moment. They don’t really love me or need me, its all an illusion. Somehow I’ve managed to not take it personally. Hell if I know how that happened. I think I may be numb to it.

        2. BC30 says:

          Leigh, I’m so sorry. It must be terribly difficult to be surrounded by them, but at least you have knowledge and tools now. XO

          1. Leigh says:

            It can be extremely draining but its myself that chooses to stay in the craziness. Yes, I do have knowledge and I see it for what it is now. So I can’t make excuses anymore.

      5. Leigh says:

        I forgot about the pity play stare. There were times I would try to end it and he would give me the sad eyes. It worked all the time.

        1. Empath007 says:

          uh yes… the pity stare… usually accompanied by tears with mine haha !

          And yes, massive turn on. I told him once that no one would be able to compare because his stare was so intense… I just had to have him haha.

        2. Another Cat says:


          “Yes, I believe my husband is a narcissist too. It’s the workplace narc that brought me to this site. I dont let people in. My wall is always up. He broke my wall down. He made me feel things I didn’t even know existed and I gave in to him. He pursued me for two years. I really thought I meant something to him so I caved. Then during yet another silent treatment, I came to site.”

          Thank you for sharing Leigh. I am so moved by your story. I also caved to a narc friend. It was days after divorce. It lasted only months. Being surrounded by narcs is a special hell I wasn’t even aware of at the time, with my mother being one as well. It takes its toll for years and years until one just needs out. Felt a smidge like Frans Kafka land. “What the absolute heck is this?”

          1. Leigh says:

            Another Cat, SO EFFING TRUE!!! Be surrounded by narcs is a special kind of hell and I desperately need out. For now though, I would settle for someone in my life to NOT be a narc. I feel like they are everywhere.

            Are you still in contact with your mother, ex husband, or ex narc friend? Are you narc free yet? If so, how long have you been narc free and how does it feel?

          2. Another Cat says:


            “Are you still in contact with your mother, ex husband, or ex narc friend? Are you narc free yet? If so, how long have you been narc free and how does it feel?”

            Oh thanks for asking! Feels good to be in NC since 2015 with mother. Haven’t seen her since, and that’s an effort since she is the stalker type. Haven’t seen my phone’s Blocked calls history for a year but it’s probably chunk full as usual.
            The kids’ narc father has them 50 %, which makes NC a relief but also it’s work.
            That narc friend? Oh I haven’t heard from him since 2015. I didn’t even answer his disengagement email. Felt so tired.

            He sent it on the day of my beloved father’s funeral. Dad’s the only person I cried for then.

            Couple of months later it was All Saints Day. He sent a text message “You must know I think of you today”. I didn’t answer (during that summer I had already read up on the phenomenon of NPD, gone no contact with my mother). So the next day he blocked me on social media. I never checked or googled anything about that person since. Problem taken care of.

            No contact feels calm and nice. Obtaining it almost with the father of the kids started 13 months ago.

            Since your kids are adults, you can go all the way. When you’re ready.

          3. Fiddleress says:

            Hi AC
            You nailed it! Being surrounded by narcs is total Kafka land, especially in reference to “The Trial”.
            I loved the film that Orson Welles made of it, for the accurate feeling it conveys of that atmosphere: a real nightmare.

            To Leigh: being narcfree (or as much as possible, in my case, and certainly in my everyday life), can feel boring at first, temporarily. If/when it happens, then you know that you are not recovered yet: it is emotional thinking, I think.
            Maybe this is only my experience of it.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            That its a good film. I also heard a very good radio dramatisation of “The Trial” as well.

          5. Fiddleress says:

            This sounds interesting. Was it on BBC Radio? I have made a quick search but what I did come across is not available.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Yes it was but it not currently available for broadcast. The BBC does that with certain programmes. It is from 2014, I will email you a screenshot so you know what to look out for.

          7. Fiddleress says:

            Not only kind, but also very thoughtful of you. Again, thank you HG.

          8. Leigh says:

            Another Cat, yes, they are adults and I have no excuses and yet I still stay. Its insane but I feel safe with him. That’s how deep the cognitive dissonance goes. Calm and nice sounds wonderful. Fiddleress said it felt boring to her at first. Boring sounds wonderful too. I just want to turn off the noise.

          9. Another Cat says:


            “You nailed it! Being surrounded by narcs is total Kafka land, especially in reference to “The Trial”.”

            Oh, yeah, only read it, will probably check your Orson Welles tip. Cudos to directors/producers who have the hutzpah to play the bad guy role (I’m remembering him in ‘The Third Man’)
            Not like Kevin Costner who played his own predictable first lover heroes… yawn.

          10. Another Cat says:


            Ok. Google tells me I already saw that film, The Trial. Anthony Perkins was lovely! I just read a short bio on wiki.

            Perkins must have been a classic obvious empath.

            Well yes it felt like fresh new horror in the beginning. First time I heard of narcissism was 2015.Turned out I was surrounded by them. I constantly wondered through the years: If my husband and my mother love me, why are they bullying me, stressig me out every day with tonnes of house work, why did she call my employee, lash out and get me fired? So many questions. I just never got that they have a manipulative personality disorder.
            And coming to Narcsite I learnt that I’m addicted to bad people and they addicted to exploiting me. Talk about feeling like Josef K.

            Hope you feel the best with your freedom too nowadays, Fiddleress.

          11. Fiddleress says:

            Thank you AC, I do feel so much better now!
            And I totally agree on feeling like Josef K.

            There are still times when, depending on which narcissist is concerned – I have been surrounded by them too, as I have found out since arriving here! – I feel it was unfair (to have a Matrinarc), or I feel guilty, or silly for having been so overly optimistic (a love devotee), or sorry for wasting the best years of my life (with my daughter’s father), but on the whole I tell myself that that’s the way the cookie crumbles! Now that it’s over.
            Most human beings, if not all, have their share of sh*t thrown at them and they deal with it as best they can, and I still think that worse things could have happened to me.
            In any case, I would not trade my newfound freedom and understanding for anything in the world. I owe this to HG. To finding narcsite.
            The addiction is tricky, but I feel well equipped now to deal with it and not get drawn in again. It takes constant vigilance, though.
            Hope you are doing well too, Another Cat.

          12. Leigh says:

            Another Cat, I can’t wait until the day I’m five years out. Luckily for me, my mother and husband are not bullies. Instead, they play absolutely no role in my life at all. They are exactly the same. Its like I don’t have a husband or a mother, yet I do.

            My mother hasn’t seen her grandchildren since they were toddlers, they are both in their twenties now. She made no effort to see them and she’s ok with that. She’ll say she doesn’t want them to see her like this. What the hell does that mean? She has never been to my home and I’ve been in the same home for 20 years.

            With my husband, I’m supposed to act like a wife but he doesn’t make any effort in the relationship either. He rarely initiates sex or if he does its at an inappropriate time so I say no and then he can smear me and tell everyone that won’t have sex with him. (I just reread that sentence and realized, he does bully me). I actually got used to doing things with just the kids or by myself. I actually enjoyed the space. I learned that it would make him happy to give him sex and then he would leave me alone. I said on another thread to Lickemtomorrow, that people would say to me all the time, is your husband real or do you really have a husband. His excuse is always, that he’s been there, done that and there’s no point to do it again. It was his excuse so he wouldn’t have to do things with me and the kids.

            I can go on and on about them but I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole. I just want to say one last thing about them, my whole life has been about taking care of them. Just once, I want someone to take care of me. Ironically though, I don’t want it to be either one of them anymore. If someone could wave a magic wand and remove the narcissism from them, I still wouldn’t want them in my life. The damage is irreparable at this point.

            Thank you for sharing your story with me. It shows there’s a light at the end of the tunnel and gives me hope.

          13. A Victor says:

            AC, Leigh, So much seems so similar in our stories here, it is comforting in a way. And AC, your story, of being 5 years out, is so encouraging!! Thank you for sharing it! And for staying around to help us newbies.

          14. Leigh says:

            A Victor, stick around. This is a great place to learn and get the answers you need. Read, reread and read some more.

          15. Another Cat says:


            Oh, sorry I am actually a newbie regarding the father of my children, stopped all coffee and talking only a year ago, so it’s only my mother that I haven’t seen for 5 years.

            He was absolutely furiius of my NC, reported me to authorities, they even had to explain to him that I don’t have to let him into the house when we hand over the children to eachother. It’s been absolutely creepy. But I’m learning, healing. Over here

            It’s a special hell when the bully has a fantastic reputation among ppl in town. Took me a long time to work out the NC regime. Just occasionally short text msgs about the children’s activities. Etc.

            But really, thank you regarding my mother, that one feels nice!

          16. Another Cat says:

            A Victor

            Sorry, I got the name mixed up. I am actually a newbie again. The NC with the father of my kids is only since a year back (thanks for congrats about my mother, AV ❤️) Stopoing coffee and talking when handing over the kids cost me a lot in the beginning. He reported me to authorities, to schoolteachers,tthey even had to explain to him that I don’t have to let him into my house. Was very creepy.

            Trying to heal with exercise and HG plus you guys. Comes as a real bonus that I can give support to you and others!

          17. Fiddleress says:

            Another Cat, well done on your no contact since last year with your ex! I can only imagine how hard it was for you, as he was highly regarded in town.
            No one in my family or amongst our friends could understand why I left my daughter’s father (Middle Mid-Range). They all thought he was so “nice”. Yeah, good façade. My mother called me a bitch for leaving him (of course, but then I’d been called a bitch by her since I was 8, so nothing new on that front, haha; makes me laugh, now). That was after she’d been flirting with him (yes…) while I was with him, and trying to smear me to him. Fortunately, he couldn’t speak our language very well, so she didn’t manage to get her message across successfully, haha.
            Gosh I can be mean sometimes.
            Good on you for being no contact with your mother too. I know how hard that can be. Five years is a good time, so keep going! I started no contact with mine 11 years ago, but it took me about 40 years.
            It is good to have you around, AC.

          18. A Victor says:

            AC, I missed that in your comment to Leigh. But, you are obviously not a newbie in many ways, your comments are most often enlightening and informative as well as, on many occasions, humorous. I wish you continued success with both of the narcissists in your life and again, appreciate your presence here very much.

            You actually brought to mind a question I’ve had. On a few occasions I have seen HG or someone on the blog mention different aspects that help our progress, ie-sleep, exercise etc. Is there a place to learn more about these or are they sort of spread throughout these threads?

          19. Another Cat says:

            A Victor wrote

            “On a few occasions I have seen HG or someone on the blog mention different aspects that help our progress, ie-sleep, exercise etc. Is there a place to learn more about these or are they sort of spread throughout these threads?”

            Oh I bought a package, I think.
            ‘How to flush out the narcissist’
            or was it

            ’20 ways to flush out the narcissist’

            An audio where HG gives great advice of things to arrange for a new life without the narcissist. Exercise was just one of them.

            Exercise lowers my general heartrate, so I don’t worry as much. My pulse doesn’t jump that high when, say, I read coronavirus news or other things.

            I try to go for Michael Mosley’s tip these days that push ups give extra good sleep afterwards.

            Love having you around too very much and thanks for super validation xo

          20. A Victor says:

            You’re welcome AC! And thank you for the direction, I am looking that up as we speak.

          21. A Victor says:

            AC, is it 20 Ways to Delete the Narcissist possibly?

          22. Another Cat says:

            AV wrote

            “AC, is it 20 Ways to Delete the Narcissist possibly?”

            That’s the one. Hope I can listen to it again later today.

          23. A Victor says:

            AC, thanks, I’m super excited for this one, positive action steps are always good.

        3. Alexissmith2016 says:

          Leigh, it’s interesting how you say that if you could remove the narcissism from them that you still wouldn’t want them in your life. I feel exactly the same. Once a relationship with a person whether that is family, friend or otherwise has broken down I can literally never feel the same way about them again. Not ever. There is nothing there any more, not even a spark to reignite it.
          I admit I have the same addiction to Ns as other Es but it goes off like a switch. Once off it’s like the bulb has been completely removed so even if I try hard to flick it back on it simply cannot happen. In many ways I do feel incredibly fortunate in that respect and I wish I could bottle it up and give it to all Es everywhere.

          1. A Victor says:

            Alexissmith2016, I have the same reaction to people, narc or not, once it’s dead, it’s dead. I expect it may be related to having certain empathic elements in our mix, whether schools, cadres or traits. It does make some things much easier. It hasn’t been easier with the summer narc because that relationship hasn’t reached the point of death. But, I’m so glad to have figured it out early, thanks to my daughter, this saving going through the whole thing and being much more hurt. I think this along with my need for freedom are why their thinking of us and their personal, forever appliances bothers me so much, when I “disengage”, it’s over, no looking back or going back.

          2. BC30 says:

            “I wish I could bottle it up and give it to all Es everywhere.” Me too, AS2016. Me too.

          3. Leigh says:

            AS2016, its so bizarre.
            Sometimes i can write people off very quickly. If i feel like you did me wrong, I’m done. Other times, it takes me years. Like with my mother or my husband. I’ve been with my husband for 35 years.

            My father was a narcissist also and I was able to write him off with no problem. He left when I was 14 and it was a blatant betrayal. Thats why it was easy for me to write him off. With my mom and husband, the betrayal was much more covert and sneaky. I didn’t even realize it was happening.

            My father has since passed and with my mom, we talk once a month for 5 minutes. Now, I just have to leave my husband and once I go, the contact will be non existent.

            Its interesting though, the workplace narc manipulations were blatant and obvious and yet I’m still very much addicted to him.

          4. Leigh says:

            A Victor, I’m in the same boat as you. For some reason I can’t write off the workplace narc yet. I’m still very much addicted to him.

            I was just thinking some more about why I can write off some and not others. I think its the whole savior thing. I must gravitate to people who need to be saved and taken care of.

          5. A Victor says:

            Leigh, my autocorrect changed hadn’t to hasn’t. I wrote the summer guy off but it wasn’t at the dead point yet, I was still enjoying interactions with him thus making it more difficult to walk away. My mom I went cold on, with regard to ever having a relationship with her, years ago, it will never happen, I would not allow it. Not a matter of forgiveness, just self protection and acceptance. She still pushes my buttons though. And when my ex left, I never wanted him back, it was just done, no animosity even. Same when I left my first ex.

            I am high on savior, you are probably correct, I hadn’t thought of that. Interesting.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            Do you think your addiction to the workplace narc is so strong and your feeling unable to let go might be less that you feel you need to save him, but rather unconsciously you saw him as saving/rescuing you from your relationship with your husband? That the narc became your hope and a vehicle for leaving where you feel unfulfilled but could not cut that tie yourself? I stress the word unconsciously.

            Just something to ponder. No need to answer.

          7. A Victor says:

            Leigh, it just occurred to me that Cross Pollution might be helpful to you. It really helped me understand how still being around my mother was causing me to continue to think about the summer narc, causing some of the urges to reach out to him that I was having. After listening to that, the urges dropped, not completely, but I’ve been able to process them then more effectively and I get fewer. Just an idea since you and I both seem to have, or have recently had, more than one narc in the picture.

          8. Leigh says:

            NA, you hit the nail on the head. It wasn’t subconsciously. I wanted to save him and i wanted him to save me. I know you can’t start a relationship built on a lie but yet I still hoped.

            I know he can’t save me, so why am I still drawn to him? This is why I think I still want to save him.


          9. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I so relate to your comments about wanting to save him, thinking he would save you! The summer narc was so confident, so definitive, so strong, we even talked about me being happy to not make decisions, I’m so tired of doing that. I wanted so badly for him to be someone I could trust to lean into for this. I didn’t see that he needed saving except for his health, but he was more than happy to save me! Until he wasn’t 100% trustworthy, until he started doing and saying things that made me uneasy. Not defining the relationship was huge, silent treatments here and there, only a few but it sent red flags to me, saying highly inappropriate things on occasion etc. I am glad for my years alone because I think having had that time I realized earlier on that I didn’t need this in my life. It still took input from several people and learning a tiny bit about narcissism from other sites before I was able to end it, what led me to those sites and to finally end up here the week after I ended it, I’ll never know. But that last weekend put the end on it for me, he actually told me I was acting like an ass that weekend. Haha, not okay. So, I’m even glad for him being that way on that weekend. It has still been hard but I am getting slowly better. Glad you and I are here.

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I know what you mean with that. Similar situation for me. The Mid Ranger did kind of save me, although I wasn’t looking to be saved at the time. He was the lesser of two evils. Difficult to unpick when it’s like that.
            The lesser of two evils doesn’t make it right though. As ET falls you see that more clearly.

          11. Leigh says:

            A Victor, my ex workplace narc is a burn survivor and he’s a little disfigured. I still thought he was beautiful. Thats why I think its the savior in me that wanted to save him. I wanted him to feel loved. I felt an instant connection to him. He lit a fire in my belly. He made feel things I didn’t know existed. He brought out the best and worst in me.

          12. Leigh says:

            Truthseeker, its funny that you say the lesser of two evils. Workplace narc only feels like the lesser of two evils right now because I haven’t written him off yet. I’m still addicted to him.

            The truth is, he’s probably more malign than my husband and would eventually be the worse of two evils.

          13. A Victor says:

            Leigh, talk about lighting a fire, and not only in my belly! Feeling things I had never felt, totally understand this!! It’s much of what made it so difficult to end it. He also called my son lazy that last weekend. He’s never met me or my son. Had he not done that, I would’ve likely overlooked the ass comment. But, now I thank him for that, Mama Bear came out and all is well. Have a good Thanksgiving, if you celebrate it! Otherwise, have a good day!

          14. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Timing is everything. Sometimes there is likely an element of smelling blood in the water, brings them in circling closer. Workplace narc very possibly heard through the grapevine that all was not well at home.

            There can be coincidental benefits of ensnarement. You are still being manipulated, it just so happens that that manipulation makes you feel better for a time. So they get the add on benefit of contrast. You see them as ‘good’ because something else maybe is ‘bad’. At the time, and with soaring ET, this binds, added bonus for the narc. Limited effort expended, maximum result. It results in a loyalty. It did with me anyway.

            I actually have accepted that. I’m really not trying to unpick it because I now understand why it’s there. It is what it is. The thing is though, at some point you have to fast forward. Irrespective of your husband, remove him from the equation for a minute. What could you expect in terms of a relationship with work narc 6 months, 12 months, two years from now? You know the answer to that. You know how it goes. HG is very very clear about that. No exceptions. There is therefore no decision to make. Not really.

            You’re lonely and you want it to stop. Work narc isn’t the answer. Reducing your ET so you can see clearly, is the answer. Have you accessed the Addiction Triple Package Leigh?

          15. Leigh says:

            Truthseeker, he didn’t know there were problems at home. No one did or still does. I maintain a facade. Everyone in my life thinks I’m happily married. Well, workplace narc now knows I’m not happy. This is part of the reason I thought I might be a narcissist myself. I maintain a facade.

            I dont know how he figured it out.

            Yes, I know it wouldn’t last with him and even if it did, the abuse from him would be far worse than the abuse from my husband.

            It just was really nice to experience those feelings.

            A Victor, yes I celebrate Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving to you too.

          16. Leigh says:

            Truthseeker, I haven’t gotten the addiction package yet. Thats next on the list. I just did the ED & TD a couple of weeks ago and I need a little time to save again.

          17. Another Cat says:


            ” Well, workplace narc now knows I’m not happy. This is part of the reason I thought I might be a narcissist myself. I maintain a facade.”

            When we’re under stress, all can maintain a façade. But the narcissist subconsciously notices
            that we’re under stress.Our bodylanguage and wordchoice give us away I suppose.

            HG says something about ppl only getting ensnared when they are in a state of need. My divorce narc (no contact) would probably not be interested in me today. Leigh, he is surely noticing your new confidence already and that repels them.

            Thank you for what you write about hope!

          18. Magician1 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            I do remember you telling me now about just having done the EDC and TDC. My brain shut down for a moment there ha ha!

            I think lots of us keep the facade going in that context. Our reasons are different to the narc reasons. Ours are based more on protecting the family. I’m glad you aren’t thinking seriously about workplace narc 😊

          19. Leigh says:

            Another Cat, he seems to like my confidence. Its seems to draw him. I imagine it would make him feel powerful and the fuel would be extremely potent, if he was able to break my confidence. I can’t allow that to happen because then he wins.

            Truthseeker, when he’s right in front of my face, I consider it for a nano second. Then I think of all of you saying, “DONT GO IN, THERE’S A SHARK LURKING!” Lol!

            He really was only a part of my life to show me what I wasnt seeing. Now that I see it, I no longer need him.

            As for the facade, yes I see its instinctive for them. For me, it definitely was to protect the family unit. Its funny because my children get annoyed with me for making excuses for my husband all the time.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      I know what you mean here Leela. When people smile, they smile with their eyes too. It isn’t just the mouth. The warmth comes from the eyes.
      The narc had the most amazing eyes I think I have ever seen. He was attractive, not conventionally so, but his eyes, his eyes were truly stunning.

      I never saw him angry so I have no clue if they would darken. He did do exactly what HG describes though. He would hold eye contact and I felt like he wasn’t just looking at me, he was looking into me. As I spoke, his eyes never left mine, and the normal noise and interference in a busy restaurant calmed. All was quiet. Him locked on to me, me locked on to him. In some ways they are doing exactly what we do. We listen to the words but reach past them to feel the words. They listen to the words, reach past them to find the most likely emotion so they can categorise it, not feel it. Similar, but not the same and certainly not the same motivation.

      One thing that really sticks with me about him. I felt calm with him. Calmer than I have with anyone else, but if I really look at that and try to zoom in, I don’t think it was calm I was picking up from him, it was probably, emptiness. I think I would recognise this if it happened again with someone else. It was a very specific feeling, I just couldn’t put a name to it, because I just didn’t recognise it.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        EXACTLY this is it! Thank you, truthseeker! I often felt a kind of an unease when being near a narcissist, no matter what kind of relationship it was: parent, boss, co-worker. intimate- oder non-intimate partner. I always felt, that this person has a “dark side”.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:


          Want to know something weird?

          Most of my interaction with the narc took place online. So, communication was mostly written but with a huge number of images, pics taken in the moment, throughout the day and night.

          Amongst all of this, occasionally, he sent pics of his eyes, in close up. He demonstrated how the colour appeared to change from green to dark blue. Sometimes, he would look stern. The pic would arrive and I just laughed it off, navigated round it, coaxed, teased, pulled him back on track.

          After a disengagement, he didn’t announce his return by messaging me directly. He simply changed his profile pic on the app we used. It was an edited black and white pic, (hair short as I preferred it) his eyes in close up. Black, stern looking. I find stern sexy. I’m not scared of stern, so stern bounces off me. I just see it as a challenge to playfully de-stern my opponent. Ha ha.

          I left it a week. One whole week! Go me ! Then sent, “Nice pic.” He claimed he had just changed profile pic as he ‘fancied a change’. Aye right, sure you did. From that single message I was back in for a further 18 months. A cautionary tale.

          1. A Victor says:

            Thank you for sharing this Truthseeker, I was just fighting an urge to reach out to the narc from last summer and your comment was the first thing I came to here this morning. Oh my goodness, what causes these urges?! Anyway, upon reading what you wrote, it has passed. Thank you!

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            A Victor,

            I’m not entirely sure what causes them. It’s a spike in ET, but sometimes there is no real reason for that spike. No conscious one at least. I get them too. You aren’t alone there. You did the right thing coming here and looking at comments or articles. That’s a logical decision right there.
            I’m glad my comment helped. X

  10. Asp Emp says:

    “The eyes feature prominently in an engagement with another person” – I demand it when “engaging” with me.

    I have “stared” at people – all my life. To learn and observe. To observe their “behaviours”. People find it unnerving. They usually look away first (sniggering).

    “Ordinarily, staring at another person is considered to be rude and ill-mannered” – oh, really? I hadn’t known that (I do, but I do it anyway!).

    Once, not too long ago, I went to shop in my usual & local area when there was someone who was also going into the same direction – with the covid (pre-November lockdown) – wearing masks. They started to speak to me but stopped speaking but they were smiling (I hadn’t indicated anything) – however, I felt the ‘energy’ of the person’s eyes – as if they were looking straight into me – likened to an electric bolt of ‘energy’ right into my instincts. For a second or two, I was surprised / taken aback – but was not unnerved. Then I went into the shop & obtained what I went in there for. Going around the aisle where people were expected to queue – the same person was there & still smiling – but then they did something that I noticed was not the usual ‘behaviour’ of someone moving away – it was not in the usual ‘characteristic’ of a person. I ‘brushed it off’ as me being me. I told myself that it was nothing but yet I couldn’t ‘shake off’ that moment when they looked into my eyes….. a narcissist’s “stare”? Probably not. Just genuine yet unusual eye contact.

    1. Eternity says:

      Wow! I actually never experienced the Stare so I really dont know what to look for I mean I see the way people can stare ,but just not this one .

      1. Asp Emp says:

        There is a difference (like HG says in the article). As for what I experienced…… what can I say? 😉

      2. Asp Emp says:

        Having said that – the narcs at work did the narcissist’s “stare” but the one I saw at the shop, I have no idea who it was, maybe it wasn’t a narcissist, it was a person regardless……

        1. Eternity says:

          Who knows you need to be physcic I think to see that.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            I don’t “see” but ‘sense’ (intuition) which is completely different from ‘instincts’ and these have nothing to do with ’emotions’ – so, yes, I do have some degree of ‘psychic’ hence my feeling (not on an emotional level) ‘energy’ (good or bad) from some people I meet in my lifetime. Sometimes this ‘energy’ I sense can be really strong, other times it’s not as strong. I’ve never ‘looked’ into it. I can’t explain where or how I get this.

          2. Eternity says:

            I see you point. I have got pretty good gut instincts myself. I usually sense something in the pit of my stomach before it happens. I sometimes dream of things and then they happen. Dejavu. So I see your point completely Asp Emp . I can usually pick up on different vibes of people when I enter a room

          3. Asp Emp says:

            “I usually sense something in the pit of my stomach before it happens. I sometimes dream of things and then they happen. I can usually pick up on different vibes of people when I enter a room” – interesting. Same here.

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