Save The Children



If there is one thing which will often scupper an attempt to escape our clutches, it is the existence of children. On the one hand the existence of children created by you and our kind often results in you continuing to endure the relationship for the sake of the children rather than separate. On the other hand, even if you do decide that it is better to separate than stay with our kind, you are rarely able to truly escape because of the shared connection that exists because of the children. Even though you wish to escape the roller coaster existence of being with our kind, as an empathic person you behave fairly and recognise that the children should see their other parent and thus you either make provision or allow for contact to continue between our kind and the children which in turn means that there must inevitably remain contact between you and us. You may however take the draconian step of deciding that it is in the best interests of the children to have no contact with the narcissistic (although usually you only realise the other parent is abusive rather than narcissistic at this juncture) parent and cut all contact off. This then results in our kind turning to formal means through the courts to establish contact with the child or children again.

Your concerns in respect of the involvement of our kind in the raising of children cover numerous factors.

  1. You are concerned that our behaviour will affect the children so that they in turn become narcissists;
  2. You are worried that our behaviour leads to the children witnessing abusive behaviour towards you which will upset the children;
  3. You are concerned that our behaviour will lead to the children not receiving a stable and nurturing upbringing;
  4. You are worried that the children will be used as pawns between you and us and adversely influence so they are turned against you;
  5. You are concerned by our failing to provide emotional and financial support which will in turn impact on the children; and
  6. You are worried that our behaviours will effectively spoil what should be happy moments in childhood.

These, along with others, are legitimate concerns. It becomes especially difficult for you when you find that you face a battle between doing what is right for a child even though this may clash with what they want. They want to spend time with us but you see such time as toxic and having an influence on the child (who as a child cannot see or comprehend what is happening) which is at best unhelpful and at worst downright damaging. How do you deal with a situation where you need to do what is right and best for a child, even though they will not see this at the time? First of all, what must you understand about our attitude towards children and parenting?

  1. Children are regarded as appliances by us. There is no distinction made for the fact that they are children nor that we are their parent. We see children as appliances and devices which are extension of ourselves and therefore there to do our bidding. You should never be under any illusion that a narcissistic parent loves the child. Do not be fooled into thinking that any benign act exhibited by our kind is a manifestation of love towards a child. It is not;
  2. This pervading mind set means that children will be used in order to gather fuel. This will be done directly by obtaining fuel from them. Initially this will manifest as wanting to spoil them when we have time with them so that their positive responses to this will provide us with positive fuel. We will upset, anger and frustrate children in addition to draw negative fuel as and when it is deemed appropriate. This is not done because the positive fuel has become stale (as is the case when devaluation occurs in the context of an intimate partner primary source) but is an adjunct of wanting to achieve some other aim. The two most popular aims are control and triangulation. We will provoke a negative fuel response from children in order to exert control over them, for instance, taking a toy away or forbidding them to do something that they enjoy such as watching a certain television programme or being allowed some sweets. This reinforces our control. A child is no different from any other appliance and must be subjected to our control. This control is not exerted for the benefit of the child, for instance, stopping the child from eating sweets every day because it is unhealthy, but is only done so we can establish control. In terms of triangulation, the negative emotional response will be achieved for the purposes of triangulating you. For instance, we may suggest to the child that mummy does not love the child so it becomes upset. We only care about the reaction, not the well-being of the child. We may say that the child cannot do something on your instruction, in order to both upset the child and thus gain negative fuel and at the same time smear you through this triangulation. Thus, when negative fuel is sought from a child it arises in conjunction with the desire to control and/or to triangulate.
  3. The traits and achievements of the child are up for grabs in the same way that we steal and acquire traits from adults in order to furnish our construct and make ourselves look even more appealing. Our sense of entitlement is such that the child has only won the race, come top of the class, swum that distance, secured a place on a vacation scheme as a consequence of our brilliance. We will remind you, the child and third parties that this is the case. Repeatedly.
  4. We will smear and brief against you at every available opportunity. Irrespective of the reasons why the relationship between you and us ended, we will not rise above the desire for smearing for the sake of the children. If there is an opportunity to take a pot shot at you, it will be taken. The needs of the children do not ever come before our needs. Thus if they are upset by what we say about you, we receive fuel and do not care how it affects them. If they begin to dislike you because we suggest you are too strict, we will not counter that but rather we will cultivate this position to our advantage.
  5. Just like you, children can cause criticism to us. Rather than soak it up as a mature, well-adjusted parent would, we will lash out when there is a perceived or actual criticism of us delivered by the words and/or actions of the child. This will as ever result in the ignition of fury and the manifestation of heated fury or cold fury. We will sulk with a child, turn away from them if they want support and/or shout at them. The fact they are a child is meaningless to us. The fact we as a parent owe obligations to them to behave in a mature and responsible fashion to them does not matter because our needs come first.
  6. We have no sense of responsibility or obligation to children. A lesser narcissist will see no need to maintain maintenance payments and will be content not to see work. A greater may well make such payments, not because he cares about the children but it is done to show to everybody else how generous he is and also to make you look bad if your financial contributions are not as substantial. The payment or otherwise of financial support will be used as a carrot and stick against you throughout the duration of childhood. We will only become involved in the lives of the children if we regard there as being some kind of benefit to us. Their emotional needs, education, safety etc. are irrelevant to us. We will attend a school performance not to show support to the child so they feel happy, but to show to other parents that we apparently love and support the child, so we gain fuel and infuriate you. We regard obligations as beneath us, we have no sense of accountability, our sense of entitlement means we can do as we please, our lack of guilt or conscience means there is no mechanism causing us to adopt an alternative stance.
  7. Understand that children are pawns which will ALWAYS be used to our advantage. Whether it is to bind you to us during the golden period, to make us look good to others, to draw fuel, to exert control, to triangulate, to perpetuate abuse and so forth, our interactions with our children are governed by our needs. In the same way that our interactions with you as intimate partner, or our involvement with an inner circle friend, or our dealing with a stranger are all governed by our needs first, the same is applicable to children.
  8. Attempting to curtail our involvement with the children is seen as a criticism to us, irrespective of how morally and factually correct your action may be. That is irrelevant to us. We will use the court system for our purposes. We do not wish to spend time with our children for their sake, but instead it is for our sake. We may find it boring having them but if we know the fact they stay with us one night a week upsets and angers you, we will do it in order to draw this fuel from you and therefore we will use the court system to fight. It is not a fight for the benefit of the children. It is a fight for the maintenance of our needs – fuel, control, triangulation etc.

With this mind set of ours now apparent in our interactions with you and the children, how do you deal with us?

  1. Minimise the interaction you have with us. Establish a system for messages to be sent by e-mail or text. If this is deviated from by a telephone call, do not take the call but allow voice mail to pick up the call and then you can establish how best to respond thereafter and you will not provide fuel by being tricked into answering a call. If possible, prevent any face to face contact between you and us concerning the children. We draw the most fuel from seeing your emotional reactions face to face. Remove this (where practical) and you are denying us fuel. For instance, utilise the assistance of other family members or friends for the handover of the children until such an age as when they can use transport or walk between venues safely.
  2. Ensure all communications are to the point, business-like and contain no emotion. This again denies us fuel. Establish a five-minute rule so that you never immediately respond to our communications (when you are more likely to do so in an emotional fashion as we try to provoke you). If five minutes is too short, extend the time.
  3. By denying us fuel we will (initially) try to provoke you in different ways concerning arrangements and interaction with the children. Weather that storm and because we must obtain fuel we will have to seek it elsewhere. You are not a viable source so we will eventually look to obtain fuel from you less and less. You will also eventually notice that this manifests by us losing interest in the children. Remember, we are not interested in the children per se but how they as appliances can serve us.
  4. You will face an ongoing battle between your influence and our influence. This is deliberate as it is used to provoke you into confronting us about what we say about you, what we say to the children and what we do with them. We want you to engage. You must resist the need to do so. Remember, you will not make us change. We will not listen to you. We want to control you and draw fuel from you. We use the children to achieve this. Accordingly, if the children comment that we are making disparaging comments about you: –
  5. Do not confront us about the issue, it is futile;
  6. Do not seek to influence the view of the child by saying “Dad is a bad person” this will trouble the child and the response will be conveyed to us which will secure Thought Fuel for us and also provide us with further ammunition to use against you for your comment. Instead, move on to discussing something else  and the child is likely to forget about the comment. If the child persists in wanting to discuss the matter, then explain that Dad does things differently to you and then move on. Provide reassurance and listen to the child but do not, however tempting it may be, do or say anything disparaging as this plays into our hands. Your role is to maintain a positive influence for your children as often as you are able. By doing this (and starving us of fuel so the interaction will lessen) your positive influence will progressively outweigh our negative influence. The more you expose your children to a positive influence and avoid walking into our traps and playing into our hands, you will tip the balance so that they will, through the effluxion of time and exposure to this positive influence flourish under it and make their own minds up.
  7. In a similar fashion to how you must deal with a smear campaign, do not tell the children what to think, but allow them to make up their own minds. This will be difficult at first and you will no doubt find yourself on the receiving end of hurtful and challenging behaviour. Keep in mind that this is our influence (not what the child really thinks) and that as you weather the storm, the effects of your positive influence will eventually manifest. As the children become older you can present them with independent evidence of behaviour (not just hearsay and say so) so they can evaluate this for themselves and make their own minds-up. Like third parties, children do not want to be involved in a conflict between two people and they do not want to be told what to do. Cater for this and you will minimise disruption and increase your positive influence.
  8. Your approach is one of ensuring the “light side” overcomes the “dark side”. This can only be achieved by repeated reinforcement of positive behaviour and influence. If you engage in behaviours similar to ours, you enter onto our home turf and you will not only encourage us to keep going with our behaviours but you will find there is a negative outcome for both you and the children.
  9. If our behaviour is serious in terms of impact on the children – for instance violence or neglect – involve the relevant authorities. You will not be able to cause us to recognise we have done anything wrong because we either do not recognise that we have or we will not admit it for the purposes of maintaining control.
  10. If you regard it as appropriate, save messages and e-mails which exhibit our behaviour and allow the child access to them when an adult. This is again the presentation of independent evidence when they are in a position to make their own minds up. You must not engage in a popularity contest or sling mud; you will lose as this is playing into our hands.
  11. If you find yourself having to engage with us through the court system, ensure those representing you are familiar with our kind. Rely on independent evidence as much as possible rather than “he said, she said”. Recognise that we are experts at duping people and our lawyers, your lawyers, psychologists, court officials and judges can just as easily be duped. If a hearing does not go your way, resist the urge to lash out at us – it is of course just fuel – and instead continue to adopt a positive approach towards your children. That must always be your focus. We want you to engage with us and we will use children and the court system to provoke you to do this. Fail to engage and you take away much of our power.

It is hard. A narcissistic parent is a fact. We will not go away so long as we are getting what we want or believe we can do so. Prevent us from getting what we want, demonstrate to us that we are unlikely to get what we want and we will turn our attention elsewhere. This will then allow your positive influence to have an even greater bearing on the children and undo any harmful effects from our toxic influence. You will face challenges but by trying to address our behaviour, cater for it and pander to it, you will not succeed in protecting your children. I have seen this first hand.

72 thoughts on “Save The Children

  1. Amv says:

    Hi HG
    In your response to narc Angel where you refer to being abandoned by your father, is there any articles or books that you have written about that?
    Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello AMV, this is covered in books which are currently being written.

  2. Zoë says:

    Mr. Tudor,
    Thank you for this piece.
    My Narc (I just told him recently I want to divorce, we have two children ages 8 and 6) is threathning to kill me or pay someone to get rid of me. He does not tell me this personally, he tells his Friends. In your opinion is a narc capable of this or is it just his frustration talking that I am daring to leave HIM.
    Also he is more interested in money during the divorce than out children. He even proposed I pay him more so I see the kids more. If i don’t pay he wil take away the kids he says (I work, he doesn’t).

  3. Aimee says:

    I listened to the corresponding video and noticed a difference in your voice and presentation HG. There is clearly some emotion there.
    Thank you for the insightful videos and words.

  4. Truthseeker says:

    I am so thankful for this. I am also very distraught. Just over Christmas I found strength to escape. This last year and 3rd round with my 7 year old son’s father I finally realized what he is. Accepting this helps me but it hurts me as a mother to see what I have done. My mother is a narcissist. How could I have not seen this? I’ve even limited his association with my mother as I know, being the scape goat, full well what harms could befall him physically and mentally. My son adores his father. I see him constantly seeking attention and approval as I did and my heart is literally breaking. The threats have started about court under the pretense of love. I hear him screaming only that he owns him. The threats toward me are frightening but empty compared to the damage I know my son will suffer. My father is and has always been wonderful. His love and superior level of intellect prepared me for many things. Never did I ever dream I would know the pain behind his tears as he consoled me into my early 20’s after my mother broke my heart yet again. All he could say was, “I’m sorry”. He took on my pain as quilt. It’s just too much! I’d rather wipe this man from this earth than allow him to hurt my child!

  5. jarwithaheavylid says:


    Last night I read ‘Exorcising the Narc’. Thank you for writing this book. It was very enlightening.

    Perhaps I need to make a booking with you. You see, I realise my purging exists around my son. I escaped at 6 months pregnant by telling him I knew what he was and if he contacted me again I would tell his wife (who knows about the baby, deluded addict). But when you talk about everpresence – that IS my everpresence. How do I purge this everpresence? I can see no way.

    I also think he had my $3500 floors laid because I’d be pretty dumb to rip them up just to forget him. But at least I’m walking all over him now.

    Has having his child and getting away with it/from him actually given him absent fuel? Knowing that every day I see his face? Every day I grieve that my son will never know the person I fell in love with who doesn’t exist? That’s my grief – for my son. And – he’ll be back one day. I know it.

    If anyone else has any advice on how to purge this grief of never having someone to share love with over a common child, and how to purge this grief that my son will never, ever be loved by his biological ‘father’, I am all ears. My son is beautiful and so innocent. He doesn’t deserve this. 🙏

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Jar, thank you for reading the book and I am pleased you found it enlightening. BY all means make a booking with me because I will be able to assist you with your specific situation in light of what you have written. The Thought Fuel he gains will be limited and the reality is, he does not care for your son and to the extent that you implement no contact, he will largely forget about him and consign him to the scrapheap as a faulty appliance. The greater effect is on you – he has created an ever presence through your son which affects you in terms of how you are and how you might be susceptible to future overtures from him, but it can be dealt with. You know how to organise a booking should you feel that that would be of use to you.

  6. WideAwake says:

    It would be very dangerous for a narc to use a child like this with my knowledge. Very dangerous indeed!

  7. Love says:

    Happy Winter Solstice!
    Mr. Tudor, I’m curious how narc traits differ from Dr. Hare’s Psychopathy Checklist. I do commend you for not having children. Even though you say it’s for selfish reasons, you made a very responsible decision. That definitely takes off a few points from Dr. Hare’s list.

    1. 1jaded1 says:

      Happy Winter Solstice to you Love. Great question and can’t wait to read HGs answer…

      1. Love says:

        Thanks Jaded! He didn’t answer this one.
        He seems withdrawn the last couple of days. I don’t know what’s bothering him.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Hello Love, I know of the checklist but am not acquainted with it to an extent whereby I would comment.

      2. Love says:

        Hi Mr. Tudor. Thank you. I’m glad you are doing well. 💓

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you Love.

  8. My narc says he doesn’t want to get married or have kids. He says he can barely take care of himself, and would not be able to take care of a wife and kids. I appreciated him being honest about this. He says the thought of having a wife gives him anxiety. However, i think he eventually will get married because his family will prefer that.

    1. ptsd. to u or someone else?

      1. Findinglife, to someone else. He and i are just friends now.

  9. davita says:

    My children are very kind, loving, successful, and creative. They also love me very much, and respect me greatly. So, even though their dad was a Histrionic Narcissist, I was able to take them under my wing, through the Blessing of The Lord, and they are not like their daddy. They are also very funny and witty and make me laugh so much 🙂

  10. 1jaded1 says:

    Every time I read this one I’m so glad we never had children.

    1. Love says:

      Amen Jaded. Me too! No wonder I was always afraid of procreating. Nature really didn’t want that to happen. My genes mixed with any of my narcs would create a narc monster. Given my traits, I would super fuel that child from inception.

  11. Lacy says:

    Very well done, HG.

  12. SII says:

    This is in some respects what to expect from a mans point of view.
    You have seen how your mother reacted when your step brother didn’t live with you.
    Was your stepbrother used in the general same way? Did your mother only see him as an appliance. He was used for her gain only?
    I am currently reading, Running on empty, Jonice Webb. Phd.
    It’s pretty compelling on the subject of emotional abuse of a child. I no your brother excaped to some degree but not sure how much he endured.
    Did you hate him for being able to get away from your mother?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      My half brother was able to escape the worst of it as he had somewhere else to go to. My mother largely ignored him. I think she realised (as he is the eldest of us and therefore was less receptive when MatriNarc first came on the scene).

      Do I hate him for getting away? No. I hated him for not getting ensnared in the first place.

      1. Indy says:

        Is this your brother that I am fond of, just because he says “cool beans”…lol

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, you are thinking of my younger brother Indy, Lennox, but well-remembered on the saying.

          1. Indy says:

            Awww Lennox. How’s he doing these days? Did he receive a lot of your matrinarc s fury too?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            He trundles along. He did but he was shielded far more by my father. Lennox was my father’s favourite.

          3. Indy says:

            Did that hurt? Did you have your own refuge? Was there a reason he was favored that you hypothesize?

          4. NarcAngel says:


            Do you know what it was about Lennox that caused your Father to favour him or was it ever verbalised? More importantly- what do you believe was the reason your Father viewed him differently?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I don’t know.
            I believe the reason was that he saw him as less capable of looking after himself so he felt he had to and thus abandon me.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            I wish to slip into the “Overly Hopeful” category today (not ALL day) to pose the following:
            I am not a parent, but I can see that when one child displays more of a need in some capacity than the others, that the parent will “borrow” some of the other childrens time to address that need as there is only so much time and energy to go around. I both experienced this in lack of attention from my Mother and also in dealing with my siblings (as a substitute Mother). Yes it can feel like abandonment and I have great issue with my Mother, but I have been able to negotiate with myself that because I showed a strength and fearlessness that she and the others did not possess, that I was left very much on my own to deal with things. She reasoned that I did not need help and indeed has since noted that I always seemed ok and in control (seriously she said that of a child) so she had more concern of the others. Is it possible that your Father found himself in this position? His observation that you were seizing the power that your Mother wielded and that he himself experienced and was unable to affect, may have caused him to have a sense of hopelessness for him to have had any affect on you, so he turned to your brother where he thought he might? Not an abandonment as his intention but rather a shifting of focus to have effect where it was most deemed possible (in his eyes)? It seems from his emotional demonstration of pride at the table in your Mothers absence (at the restaurant) that he felt he had failled you, was weak, and that you viewed him as such, and thus thought he was saving you both the pain and embarrassment by never recreating that uncomfortable moment. No man wants to see his Father reduced in his eyes, nor the Father want to be seen as such. You can never be wrong in how you feel but you can feel differently when you consider applying information with greater intellect and the passage of time if you are not too stubborn to consider it. Possible to keep a foot in that door for further contemplation?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Na, thank you. At the time he abandoned me I was not seizing the power. That came later. Whether he somehow thought i was capable of doing so seems unlikely, how would he know. I was forced to seize the power because of the aggressor I faced in MatriNarc and the abandonment by my father who should have shielded me (as he did with the others). I know why he abandoned me; he blamed me as well and ever since he was burdened by the guilt of doing so which caused him to behave as he did when he expressed his pride for me. I know he was trying to make amends for abandoning me and he kept seeking my forgiveness.

          8. NarcAngel says:

            Ah. Thank you. Demonstrates its easy for us to make these observations and assumptions based on singular incidences or snippets of information spread throughout articles. I will keep reading and watch for the books regarding the family topics and dynamic. My interest is not to poke holes or to try to “cure” you, but to better understand where people experience trauma the reason the path for some is so different. I can say that I admire you were able to create a system that allows you to be so successful and productive where others could or would not. It is up to the rest of the world to decide how or if they interact with yours.

            Ok, that category did not suit me-off I go…………

          9. “He trundles along” lol HG you’re back!!😊😊😊

      2. Love says:

        I say ‘cool beans’ too! Maybe he and I are destined to be. My first empath!!! 💗 Too bad he has a girlfriend. But you’re taking care of that, Mr. Tudor, aren’t ya? Let me know when he is single and in need of TLC.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I have made a note Love.

      3. 1jaded1 says:

        Powerful admission. Is he the one you write about in the post where you said the person would always be there? Or, is it someone else?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No that was somebody else 1jaded.

      4. 1jaded1 says:

        Thank you.

  13. bowersusan says:

    all true. thank you HG

    1. HG Tudor says:


  14. davita says:

    I cannot even begin to look back at his dealings with the children; it hurts too much. It was a blessing when he passed away.

    1. lucky u
      i wish i could be so lucky.

      1. davita says:

        Thank you, FindingLife <3

  15. Adele says:

    I always wondered why my narc never married or had children. I asked him a few times and he said he believed children deserved the best in life. It doesnt sound narcissistic, but maybe he knows hes incapable of being a parent. Hes told me a few things about growing up but nothing too shocking. I do know theres a lot he hasnt told me.

  16. Indy says:

    I think I submitted a partial comment on this post by mistake, please delete it. Gonna start over here.

    Very wise advice and very hard to do. I left my son’s father (a lesser) when my son was 3 months old (I was 19) as I clearly saw the writing on the wall and knew violence was in my and my new son’s future. He threated my life and stalked me hard for 4 years. I set up formal visitations, but he could not abide by the rules. He just wanted to harass me during them. Because of the level of danger I was in and I was never married to his father, I fled the state. I raised my son without telling my son these details, just that his father did not know how to raise a child and that he loved him in his own way. When my son grew into an adult, I introduced them, per my son’s request. (Interestingly, the lesser thanked me for the introduction and apologized for his drinking, not for the aggression though. It was interesting. He seemed like he was flirting to make a play again. I was not responsive.) They met and had a few phone conversations. My son made up his own mind and figured him out without me saying a word. It worked out, after a lot of hard work and hiding. I know many of you do not have this luxury to hide. If your life is in danger, or your child’s, meet with a domestic violence counselor and explain your situation. It is free and they can find shelter for you.

    1. Love says:

      Indy you are a strong woman. I’ve seen where the narc father has been MIA the entire life of the child. Yet Lo and Behold, once the child is a grown adult, then the narc wants back in. He now wants to be a ‘father’ but has absolutely NO comprehension of what it takes to be a parent. My last narc reintroduced himself back into his children’s lives once they were adults. One accepted him (I suspect he is a narc too). So how do Father and Son make up for lost time? By frequenting bars and strip clubs. Yes, Daddy Dearest didn’t acquire a child. He got himself a new buddy. And oh boy, this young guy has opened up all new doors for him to young girls and the feeling of eternal youth.

      1. Indy says:

        Hi Love,
        Yes, that does happen. Sometimes those sons crave so much for a father figure that even into adulthood, they will take what they can. A buddy that is bad influence even. Or, be re-victimized, after being abandoned as a baby, once again by the con dad taking advantage of whatever resourced the kid may have. It is very sad.

        This life, if we allow it, builds our muscles into warrior goddesses. You have this girl! I just needs some watering and nurturing is all 😉 We take those bumps, bruises, and scars and make our armor and weapons. Where we take no shit and still have compassion. A fierce compassion. Not a sugary compassion. Not care taking others overly when we do not respect ourselves. Narcissists make us forget our own identify. We disrespect ourselves when we allow them to abuse us. We are not at fault, no, but we have to still get out. That is self respect. That is on us. No one, save Jesus, or Muhammad, Moses, Buddha, or Great She Wolf of the North, or whatever spirits are out there can save another.

        I think all woman have this ability in them, to become Warrior Goddesses. When looking pretty and sitting quiet just doesn’t make sense and is not longer effective in living a full authentic life. Being called “nice” is NOT a compliment. Truth is where freedom resides. No matter how brutal. Being called genuine and authentic is.

        Howling at the moon.

      2. Love says:

        That was beautiful Indy! You are an inspiration! One day I will get to where you are… Thank you for saying I have it too ❤
        I am finally at a place where I am content with not having children. I was a parent (caretaker) my whole life. First to my family, then my narcs, and still my family. My chains took a lifetime to build. They were of my own doing. Yet I am slowly pulling at them, stretching them further and further out. One day.

    2. NarcAngel says:


      Your story demonstrates what I believe a Mother to be. What you did shows strength and courage, and you did not forget those left behind but continue to reach back to hold their hand until they can find their own strength. Thank you.

      1. Indy says:

        Thank you. Oddly, my parents taught me this. Even though my mother was severely depressed during my early childhood and my father was socially avoidant, stern and stoic. They both taught me that family and children always come first. They did the best they could and they gave me a lot of tools. They helped me escape. I also had a lot of mentors in my life too. I give them that honor and your compliment means a lot to me and it honors them.

        Thank you.

  17. Hope says:

    HG, Can non-malignant (non-sociopathic) Narcissists feel genuine love for their children or family?

      1. NarcAngel says:

        See? Hope springs eternal for an Empath. No pun intended.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed it does NA.

      2. summeringa says:

        I assumed it.
        It is consistent with my experience. He was never a real father, he is not and never will be. I often felt like a single mommy.
        No genuine love at all…precise answer, yet hard.
        But how could I ever have assumed that there was love with this behaviour?

  18. NarcAngel says:


    THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! For being so brutally honest. I can’t express enough how much I appreciate you covering what is such a sensitive topic for many. Most Empaths cannot comprehend that you could feel this way about a child and they think things will change once you see that little face. And oh they do change but not in the way the Empath thinks. You have just offered him another victim. I too have seen it first hand and it is a life of hell for a child. Now lets hope they accept your gift of honesty and your plan to assist those in this situation.
    I will consider your post a Christmas present. One that cannot be bested.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you NA, that is appreciated.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        I left your Christmas present on and by way of review on Sex and the Narcissist. Oh…..and I have decorated the naughty step accordingly since its my second home.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I am obliged NA.

  19. Ana says:

    Three years and counting 🙂
    His obsession with me, however has just been growing and growing and growing… the more silent and emotionless I am, the more agressive, abusive and obsessed he has become.
    Today was the first time I read all I’ve been doing these years for me and the child. Apparently none of them has been working much for him as he still forces a primal source role on me.

  20. Anna says:

    This is invaluable to me, ty kindly.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  21. i have read this in 1 of your books….can’t remember which 1 as i have read so many….they are all swirling in my head. 🙂 But it was helpful then and now in confirming what i know and have learned and reaffirm it.
    it’s so frustrating. i could cut him off in a second but i can’t bc of the 4 kids. he of course uses this to try and continue to control me and proclaim his superiority. so annoying. bc of the kids he will always have a presence…..and influence…..and indirect control. he makes their life worse. and limits them bc its opposite of what i want. but despite everything i will take it rather than be with him still.
    and i just pray a lot for the kids.

    1. Until our family courts and do good mediators realise they are just being pulled into the narcissists lair, children will continue to be moulded just like them despite your best efforts. Unless we speak out and unless we rise up in greater numbers than ever before, they may just as well take an axe to their children and have it be perfectly legal because that is what they do. They chop up life and chop out pieces as they feel and our system is all the more poorer for playing into their hands. Children mean nothing to them, but another object to get some gain from in one way or another. Sick and even a sick child in hospital terminally ill with a narcissistic parent is an opportunity to them. We are deluding ourselves and halting our own healing and thanks to the ‘best interests of the child’, children will continue to be emotionally slaughtered by narcissists.

      1. and it’s getting worse with more dads rights activists. which may be good for some dad’s…but not these kind.

  22. summeringa says:

    Thank you HG! This was so very useful!
    This answers a lot of questions I would have liked to ask, thank you…

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome summeringa

  23. Insatiable Learner says:

    My narc appears to target women with children as his IPPS, while unable to have children of his own, the fact he often bemoaned. Why do you think this is, HG? Thank you very much!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      He regards them as being more susceptible to being ensnared by reason of having children.

      1. Love says:

        Yes, so true. My last narc was quite the actor about his love for kids. Prior to me, every woman he’d been with had children. I sensed he was drawn to single mothers. He played the perfect step daddy – tough yet loving. It was a ridiculous act because he had 3 biological children of his own whom he was never a father to. But he didn’t miss a beat, he would bemoan the fact that he was ‘denied’ the chance to raise his kids. ‘Deprived’ of the opportunity to change diapers!
        Yes, that happens when you run out on the mothers before the children are even born.
        Seeing what a mess he made of 3 innocent lives was the best form of birth control for me. None of them were raised by him – they had very limited interaction. As adults, I see one is a narc. The other seems like a sensitive soul. Not sure about the third. TBD.

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