The Saviour Empath

THESAVIOUREMPATH

There are four schools of empath (Co-Dependent, Standard, Super and Contagion). There are many cadres of empath which layer on to those schools. These cadres include the Carrier, the Magnet and the Geyser, about which I have written previously. A further cadre is that of the Saviour Empath.

The Saviour Empath’s mission is to heal and to save, to ensure that good prevails. They are the archetypal believer in the idea that there is some good in everybody. With regard to our kind, the Saviour Empath does not consider that we are intrinsically ‘evil’ or ‘bad’. They prefer to adopt the view that there is good locked away inside of us and that it just has to be discovered, unlocked and set free. This notion of course and the desire to address this apparent goodness is a very strong binder which enables us to keep a hold on the Saviour Empath. Indeed, there are those of our kind who will play on this concept and this is addressed below.

The Saviour Empath feels an overriding need to save the world. They wish to right the wrongs, heal the sick, tend to the injured and ensure that injustices are overturned. It is this desire which is at the very heart of the Saviour Empath. The Saviour Empath is often someone who subscribes to a belief system (whether it is organised religion, karma, paganism or similar) although the absence of such a belief does not discount the person as being a Saviour Empath, but a reliance on a belief system is a hallmark of the Saviour Empath.  How does this manifest with regard to each school of empath?

Standard Empath  – the Saviour Standard Empath regards it as imperative that he or she comes to the aid of people. They will donate to charity, help out voluntary organisations and are giving of their time. With regard to the narcissist, this manifests as adopting a sympathetic and compassionate approach to the unusual behaviours (when the empath is not aware they are ensnared by a narcissist) of the narcissist. Accordingly, they regard the narcissist as a ‘good’ person (supported by the narcissist’s illusory behaviour during the golden period) and therefore when devaluation occurs they will ascribe the behaviour to arising from a third party event rather than seeing it as the behaviour of the narcissist at work. The Standard Empath wants to assist the narcissist and does so by trying to understand and offer solutions linked to the aberrant behaviour that is being witnessed. The Saviour Standard Empath whilst wanting to save the narcissist from whatever terrible third party event or influence that is causing the behaviour (for example, is the narcissist struggling at work, is he stressed, has he got problems with money or drink?). The Saviour Standard Empath will put themselves in the firing line when trying to assist, but they do not tend to regard the problem as much to do with them but rather another factor which they want to tackle and overcome.

Super Empath – the Saviour Super Empath is akin to a caped crusader who fires into action whenever he or she witnesses injustice. They cannot help but interfere when really it is not their business (this is the narcissistic trait of selfishness coming to the fore momentarily). The Saviour Super Empath will not turn a blind eye to someone in trouble, they will help the injured person and then look to tackle the perpetrator (or at least bring them to account through formal channels). Thus is the Saviour Super Empath sees someone being attacked, they will help the victim, look to fight off the attacker and/or chase them down, either themselves or enlisting help. They cannot let any kind of injustice go unaddressed. The Saviour Super Empath has a very strong moral compass and therefore when they see something that is wrong, it very much boils their piss so they spring into action. Whilst they always look to help people, what really matters to the Saviour Super Empath is bringing people to account for their actions. If they see a person cutting into a queue (line) they will upbraid the offender. If they witness a person stealing, they will look to stop them or report them. The Saviour Super Empath is a firm believer in the need for good to prevail, whether this is in a situation or in a person. With regard to the narcissist that a Saviour Super Empath is embroiled with, the Saviour Super Empath knows that this person has a kernel of goodness and if they only tried to embrace it, let it shine etc then such a difference will appear. They believe the narcissist has it inside of them to make adjustments, amend their behaviour and harness the intrinsic goodness inside of them. The Saviour Super Empath knows that they are a force for good and they believe that the narcissist can do the same. The Saviour Super Empath recognises that they themselves are good people but that they have some degree of edge to them (their narcissistic traits appearing from time to time) and they often regard the narcissist in the same light – a person who has edge but is intrinsically good – and this fools the Saviour Super Empath in to wanting to assist and save the narcissist.

The Co-Dependent – the Co-Dependent who is of the Saviour Cadre finds the world to be a terrible place and wishes to administer succour to the downtrodden, to assist the hurt, and to heal the wounds of the injured. They are less concerned about bringing the offender to justice and more about attending to the people who are left cowering and broken in the wake of oppression and violence. The Saviour Co-Dependent is a person who is extremely caring and compassionate – the type of person who would join Medicins Sans Frontieres and arriving at the scene of a humanitarian disaster would work themselves into the ground to try and ease the suffering of each and every person even though it is an impossible task. They are often overwhelmed by the cruelty of the world and despair at its evil ways, but this will not stop them from trying to save each and every person who is in need of help. This applies to the way they engage with the narcissist. The Saviour Co-Dependent (“SCD”) knows and is absolutely convinced that the narcissist is at heart a good person and with the right application of guidance, support, compassion and tolerance the narcissist will change, will improve and let that goodness shine. The SCD will not give up on the narcissist, even to personal cost to themselves. They know that redemption is just around the corner, that improvement is on the horizon and they will, with a zeal bordering on delusion, grasp at any sign of improvement or alteration in the narcissist’s behaviour as evidence that their faith has not proven incorrect.

The SCD will flagellate themselves in the pursuit of trying to help and heal the narcissist, their emotional thinking and innate desire to do good, plus their own need to achieve validation through their giving of themselves means he or she will continue to try to achieve the impossible. They will not wish to give up, they will see glimmers of hope, slivers of optimism and fragments of possibility in order to achieve their aim of saving the narcissist.

The Contagion – the Saviour Contagion Empath (“SCE”) will manifest their desire to assist as a consequence of the severe impact felt by them of the negative energy, suffering and misery that accompanies the human condition. The desire to save and resolve, to eradicate the diseased and bring about the healing is different to that of the other schools of empath. The SCE needs to achieve this in order to secure balance, which is their primary aim. By redressing the bad, through their saving good works then balance is restored and the polluting impact upon them of the negative energy which they feel – the manifestation of the woe, misery and hurt that others feel – is removed and no longer (albeit temporarily) ceases to be a burden upon them. With regard to the narcissist, the removal of the dark energy surrounding and flowing from the narcissist’s behaviours has a considerable impact on the finely-tuned SCE. In order to alleviate their own pain, in order to prevent themselves from being consumed by the darkness which they acutely feel, the SCE seeks to save the narcissist from their dark self. They similarly wish to achieve balance with their own personal narcissist or narcissists.

How are these various schools of Saviour Empath regarded by our brethren? As you might expect, the SE is naturally desired by narcissists for their empathic traits, class and special traits too. Accordingly, no narcissist will ever shy away from the ensnaring of the SE. There are certain schools and cadres of narcissist however that desire the SE in particular.

Victim Narcissists desire the Saviour Empath owing to their need to be mothered, looked after and saved from their various ailments (real or imagined). The SE’s desire to bring about healing and resolution is savoured by this cadre of narcissist. Lesser Narcissists will not turn away a Saviour Empath, but they are not favoured (unless the Lesser is of the Victim Cadre) since the Lesser has no truck with the idea of being healed or saved. From what? Will be the mocking response as their  complete lack of self-awareness means that they have no comprehension or need to be saved in that manner.

Mid Range Narcissists treasure Saviour Empaths because of the fact that some Mid Range Narcissists like to play the ‘troubled soul’ or ‘personal demons’ approach. Whilst unaware of what they are, their awareness that there is something not quite right, coupled with their passive behaviours and need for attention, means that the Mid Range Narcissist truly sees the Saviour Empath as the one who will save him from himself, even though this is just part of the manipulation to keep the Saviour Empath hooked. The Mid Range will revel in becoming the pet project for the Saviour Empath and will instinctively play along by tossing a bone of apparent awareness or improvement in order to maintain the hoped for glorious redemption that the Saviour Empath craves.

The Greater Narcissist is likely to prefer other cadres but again is not going to kick the Saviour Empath out of bed for eating crisps. The Greater may find tormenting the Saviour Empath a delightful machination by increasing the visibility of their dark side so that the Saviour Empath sees a challenge which has to be surmounted. Of course, the Saviour Empath is blind to the fact that the Greater cannot be healed or saved, but that will not stop the Saviour Empath from trying time and time again.

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106 thoughts on “The Saviour Empath”

  1. The Saviour Empath cadre is not me at all, how about an anti-hero empath? I really loved “boils their piss”, that was very funny. Don’t be surprised if you see me use that phrase in future comments.

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      1. Hey, I have a false construct to build. Being the honest empath that I am, I have told you I would “borrow forever” from your vast repertoire of words. Coruscating was another one I really liked BTW. Better to be a logophile than a pedophile, I say.

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      2. K

        Oh my god, I think I just hurt myself laughing, seriously my side and stomach hurt.
        The image of you chasing HG and “borrowing” from him.
        In reality I needed a good laugh tonight, thank you sooooo much!
        Head to head with a friends boyfriend (which is one of HGs kind, I have watched over the past couple of months the subtle takeover)last night and then another today. I am ready for my day off tomorrow!!!!!

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      3. My pleasure, Twilight! I swipe, copy, paste and “borrow forever” from HG because he has fabulous ideas; I just can’t resist. Head to head with a friend’s boyfriend…oooh let me know how it goes. Empath v Narc. The takeover is difficult to watch. I love a feisty empath! Kick his ass!

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      4. K

        Ha ha hell if your going to mimic, mimic the best I say. You can’t find better then HG.

        No, he is a Greater and she is entangled. She now has to discover things on her own.

        It is not my battle, she decided to step into that even understanding her ex and father of her child is one, not a Greater but one none the less.

        I know that sounds cold, and I know pain will be brought in the end to her, but I understand nothing will tell her different then what she tells herself.

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      5. Ditto, Twilight! If you want to learn how to play chess really well, then you should learn from a master chess player.

        You do not sound cold at all; you are being prudent. You present people with the information and let them decide and that is all you can do sometimes. She will figure it out.

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      6. Hello K

        I would have to say HG is fine tuning me at this point.

        Knowledge is power, how we chose to use this power determines if we walk our path or sit down and wait for someone to carry us. We just can’t tell another what they are to do, not if they are to grow.

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  2. “…the Greater cannot be healed or saved…”.

    I have a question for you, Tudor.
    Tell me, do you really have the full internal KNOWLEDGE and SUREDNESS, that it is NOTHING could heal you?

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    1. Hello Noname!
      Perhaps this will sound strange but I personally do not think the narcissist needs to be healed or saved.. under your perspective I understand you think like that. According to you: what do they have to be healed of and /or saved from? It would be very interesting to share this ideas with you..if you feel like sharing!

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      1. Thank you for clarifying Noname. Based on this, I have not seen anything which would yet achieve this outcome but I remain open minded.

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      2. Yes! Thank you Noname.. excellent definition…

        HG, are you familiar w Sam Vaknin? It would be great if you or he were instrumental to finding a method to healing… I certainly hope it..

        Which brings me to this post – certainly a eureka moment – I believe I’ve just identified my “cadre” even if I’m not sure which ‘school’ I belong to (trying to redeem myself as a good student)..

        This also explains the relationship w my narc… I think he feigned depression to appeal to my sympathy/compassion…

        And simultaneously clarifies our relationship – i would not want to tangle w you IRL.. *sigh*

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  3. Mr Tudor,
    Could a reason for the Upper Lesser to not pic his object from this box of cadres, be that he lacks the ability to turn criticism (from his perspective) into a fight which would provide negative fuel?

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    1. Hello Sunniva, no that is not the case. The Upper Lesser is brash, bullying and bombastic and would have no difficulty at all creating an argument or a scene by which negative fuel can be obtained from a SE. The reason the UL is less likely to pick the SE is because the UL does not engage in pity plays or play the “plagued by demons” character which the SE gravitates towards.

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  4. Savior empath. Gag. Me. Won’t even bother figuring out which kind as my energy is still spent prying my eyes open on this. It seems a bit narcissistic to think one can save. Also. Gag. Me.

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  5. I used to wade into every verbal battle , trying to make people see eye-to-eye but I see it was pointless and a bit narcissistic thinking that I can solve these problems for other people.
    Also I think because I dont like battles, I was doing it so I could have peace whereas the people involved were not disturbed by the yelling.

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  6. Hi HG,
    Very timely and helpful description for me, seeing how each one varies within each school and by each narcissist school as well.

    This is scary spot on for me, and I think you have correctly identified me as a Savior Super Empath. Justice is indeed very important to me and I nearly always see the nugget of good in everyone. A flaw and a strength.

    I also loved the comment “boils their piss” 😂 Indeed, it does! I just have to pick my battles wisely. I also recognize my tendency to rescue and getting better every week at not engaging in such grandiosity. Plus, life is easier when other people’s issues are not mine to heal, it’s theirs. I have plenty of my own to heal.

    Thank you for your guidance!

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  7. Savior empath here. I did not see this behavior as a ‘god complex’. The belief that somehow I could do the right thing to open the door of understanding and enlightenment for someone who is not interested in or capable of receiving. What a humbling realization! Thank you for your insightful revelations.

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  8. Somehow despite my many hours of dedicated reading on this site I have missed the explanation of the contagion empath. Hopefully research will fix this.

    While I do manifest some outward behaviors of a savior empath, I don’t think this one is me. I often go out of my way to help people I know when they are stressed, but I feel no “compulsion” to help – especially not with people I don’t know (other than giving money). I certainly have never felt any “overriding need to save the world.” And certainly I have never had any delusions about “fixing” anyone. The only one any of us can fix is ourselves.

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    1. You just gave yourself up as one who gives money to people they don’t know! For the record, we’ve never met.
      The for the post.

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  9. I am partly a Savior Empath. I did believe in good prevailing and that there is good in everyone. I felt this all my life. I knew about the bad in the world but still feel like I grew up in a bubble.
    I didn’t understand the controlling and manipulative behaviors until your explanations in this blog. I view the world backwards now. It’s full of evil and a scary place.
    My ex mentioned many times that I had taken her on as a “project” and that offended me. I just wanted to help her. I wanted to be there for her because I loved her. I wanted her to get better with therapy. After every single time that she told me that she was damaged or not good I told her that she had a good heart somewhere inside of her.
    I know now it was all said for fuel.

    Can you be part of two cadres?

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    1. Same for me . I always believed there is good in him although he was telling me he is damaged and had problems. At the end i’ve been discarded like trash. Things that he used to say to like in me became those he hated in me. With of course alot of lies spread about about me.

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  10. Thank you so much. This helps me to see more of what I am and what I’m doing wrong. My own narcissistic traits irritate me to no end, but if I have to fight, my strong side rises up with me having no control over it. I have struggled with my temper my whole life. Or, rather, I think my temper is just fine because it’s only usually engaged by bad people, or people doing bad things. So i constantly wrestle back and forth with being irritated at this in others, yet knowing the age-old truth that if I didn’t have it in me, it wouldn’t bother me to see it in others. The spiritual fight is of the utmost importance to me, and I haven’t really seen that research done in the field that much, so thank you again for covering this matter. The spiritual predators in the religious field find my type easy prey, and it’s been a relief to learn the signs of a sociopath and how to avoid them, or at least in my case, the best I can do is politely side step until they lose interest, due to my PTSD, usually. I hope you are doing well. You’re so kind to us. And no, that’s not just me seeing you through the eyes of an empath lol… how do you know that when you see yourself as evil on occasion, btw, you’re not just seeing yourself through the lens of a narcissist? 😉 what if we are the ones who are right, all along, and it isn’t just that we see the good in you and others, but that the good is truly there? Ha! I win!

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  11. ” the Saviour Empath is blind to the fact that the Greater cannot be healed or saved, ”
    HG. Does this mean that mid range or lesser can be saved or healed?

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      1. IMO HG I believe only a Greater could, if they so desired. The only thing is I believe many empaths would want to see this “change” as they view the world, not as the Greater views the world. Their change would look different, which could be seen as a failure and commented as such due to expectations, which I wonder would be wounding, I am not even one of your kind and am like hell to the no with even bothering trying. Life is good and running smoothly just as it is. Not trying to do something that will cause that. You would have to have one hellava reason to desire this change.
        Stay the same or change, my thoughts of you will still be the same as they are.
        I apologize my thoughts are running wild this morning.

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      2. After months and months and months of reading your blog, I’ve finally gotten it through my thick bleeding heart head that Narcissists can’t heal.

        But, but, but do you think it’s possible for a Narcissist to learn to minimize the damage they cause? With most other people on this planet (normal or slightly disordered) an awareness of maladaptive behavior can bring about a slight change at the very least.

        I’m just curious, not interested in trying to work it out with Narcissist. In fact, many thanks to you, and I suppose him for being so completely twisted and violent, I feel as if I’m a few steps away from Zero Impact.

        Weren’t you going to write more on Zero Impact? Please write more on Zero Impact.

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      3. If it is OK, HG, I would like to add a couple of things from my personal experience that may or may not relate to being an SSE or just me as an individual variety of things. Feel free to correct.

        My experience is that I have a very strong belief that all individuals (narcissists and non-narcs) can heal and grow. I am not so ignorant to the fact that there is a “cure” for everything, though I have faith in improvement and growth. I am a natural developmentalist at heart.

        Now this rescuer tendency, yes, I am 100% guilty of it. It was an subconscious attraction I had for years. I did not know I had this until I looked back in my life and analyzed myself. (thus I was labeled co-dependent). Then, I experienced therapy myself and my own battles. My self exploration started very early, in my early 20’s. I am a very curious person and I like to learn (like all empaths, right?).

        Indeed, I saw the injustices in the world when I moved into larger towns and cities. My eyes were opened and I was angry. So I marched and protested and voted my tush off to support the things I believe. I am able to have conversations with all sides, though. I am not so closed minded that I hold one view. I am like a balance. But once pissed, and it takes a while to get there, look out.

        Then the relationships…oh the relationships. From one addict to another, from one narcissist to another. I became a caretaker of the family, of those dying, of high risk suicidal clients, and all with fire inside me. But, I also learned that this was not the path. I was killing myself. So, I am learning to challenge this in me. And, even before the last narc, I was learning and put up boundaries. I know how to leave. I always do. In the past, it would have lasted 5 years, this time 2 years. My goal now is no years. Never begin it. We shall see.

        Perhaps I will be the crazy cat woman wearing a stupid cape, high on cat nip. Or, perhaps it wont matter 🙂 Day by day.

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      4. Mr. Tudor: For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish… 💙 (sorry, you tempted me lol)

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  12. These are all me. Thanks HG. I learned it has been a survival mechanism to restore an overwhelming imbalance in my home of three evils against one with a conscience (me). And small evidences that the narcissist can do good and feel good about it in temporary bouts of motivation.
    Not trying is akin to leaving a family member to die, and walking away, which is effectively what has happened to a narcissist. They are dead, never to wake up again.

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    1. I’m finally doing no contact. I changed my number tonight. I’m heartbroken. It does feel like death. 😢😢😢 but if we don’t “kill” them, they’ll “kill” us. One of us isn’t getting out alive. Lol 😢

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      1. Wishing you lots of luck, Amber!! It is a big step to go no contact and change your number. It takes a lot of courage.
        Good work! Before you know it, it will be 30 days and you will be on your way! Keep coming back if you need more encouragement, support and be easy on yourself 🙂 Have you read any of HGs books on No Contact and Exorcism? If not, I highly recommend them if you need more ideas on how to keep your No Contact strong and to get that person out of your head.

        Indy

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  13. As an empath, that’s a very difficult viewpoint of the world to change.
    It’s a struggle.

    Even as I was reading this post, I kept thinking there has to be good in you – HG, or you wouldn’t be doing the blog. Plus, I can’t imagine all that intelligence you have not being utilized for anything good, ever. You just haven’t come to terms with it yet. Maybe with the help of the good doctors, you’ll be able to see that there is at least a little goodness inside of you.

    sigh … I’m probably wrong. : /

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    1. He IS a very good person. The side of him that’s abusive to others (by his own admission in his stories; i would never accuse him) is going to be just as abusive to himself. He not only inherited his mother’s genetic disorder but also had her self-hatred reinforced, behavior-wise. He’s a lovely person, and the fact that he thinks he is bad is just a lie that Satan tells him, just like the lies Satan tells him about others that causes him hurt or anger or bewilderment. Life is so easy and carefree and loving in reality. He just would destroy that in us if he could. Lol! That’s why we have to love people like him from a couple feet away… with a taser, and some tongs, and a bullet proof vest 😁 i love you, mr. Tudor! Hahaha please don’t block me. I’m just joking.

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  14. Hmmm…The description of the Saviour Super Empath is really resonating with me, especially this little nugget: “The Greater may find tormenting the Saviour Empath a delightful machination by increasing the visibility of their dark side so that the Saviour Empath sees a challenge which has to be surmounted.” My Greater definitely let me see more of his dark side as time wore on. It ended backfiring on him though because he failed to realize just how observant and inquisitive I really am. Using the knowledge he made available to me, I did a little poking around and some research to put together the pieces of the puzzle of the wolf in sheep’s clothing that he truly is. Knowing this truth and reminding myself of it is calming my overriding desire to save him. I still want to help and see the good in him, but reading your blog is really helping me to understand why it is futile. One step at a time…

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  15. “Mid Range Narcissists treasure Saviour Empaths because of the fact that some Mid Range Narcissists like to play the ‘troubled soul’ or ‘personal demons’ approach. Whilst unaware of what they are, their awareness that there is something not quite right, coupled with their passive behaviours and need for attention, means that the Mid Range Narcissist truly sees the Saviour Empath as the one who will save him from himself, even though this is just part of the manipulation to keep the Saviour Empath hooked. The Mid Range will revel in becoming the pet project for the Saviour Empath and will instinctively play along by tossing a bone of apparent awareness or improvement in order to maintain the hoped for glorious redemption that the Saviour Empath craves.”

    Eloquent way to say “I’m too insecure to respect, too insecure to not use people, too insecure to succeed, so I feel bad for myself”

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  16. This is a tough one…. I tend to be a Magnet Empath. I can spot Codependent, Empaths and Narcissist fairly easily. I tend to keep both Codependent and Narcissist around, as long as they don’t suck my energy or become a liability. My energy tends to be that warmth energy always sending out love and encouraging words, but I try to not get my hands too dirty. … however, if a codependent or narcissist finds a way to violate my own boundaries, and I start overinvesting energy or resources, I can easily become a Super Savior Empath, trying to fix or seek justice.

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  17. SCE to Mid-Ranger. Wow. What a huge piece of the puzzle. So he does think I can help him and only half is manipulating me into thinking I can or am? I have seen improvements, yet I’ve told him when my 6th sense is saying something doesn’t add up. Very interesting. ❤️

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  18. Such brilliant people! Hope they use it for good too on top of all that effort already channeled towards their narcs. Remarkable observation too, HG. Feeling inadequate today after reading such a piece.

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  19. This explains it. I do have some elements of other cadres, but this one is spot on. I’m really beginning to understand more about myself. Thanks, HG.

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  20. To the savior empaths out there…

    You can only save people that want to be saved. Save the fellow empaths and teach your children to not fall victim.

    Keep in mind that even if the narc claims they want to be helped or saved they are likely lying through their teeth and if your first few attempts do not get lasting effort for results you must learn to accept they will not truly change. It takes effort to change. Narcs waste effort lying and ensnaring you but won’t put effort into really changing.

    They see nothing wrong with their behavior. They are too entitled for shame and for introspection.

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    1. Oh and HG,

      That seed of good is in there. In everyone. We are all born with the potential for both good and bad.

      With narcs it was either cauterized or buried very very deeply with no intent to ever allow it to resurface.

      I believe that, as for a paved street in the city, roots that are not constantly culled can break that pavement and grow despite attempts to prevent it growing. It is simply that a person may not be enough to undo years of damage. But life as a whole possibly could.

      Never underestimate a seed sown and nurtnurtured.
      If one, for example matrinarc, can affect you as she did, then the opposite is also possible. We are all a 2 sided coin.

      I am now facing another narc in my life. Neighbor. This time I know what she is. I know her tactics. I see how she operates and how to handle her. She is not half as clever as the narcex was. Her tactics are duely noted and it shows me how much I’ve healed to deal with her now.

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      1. A person with npd needs early childhood intervention before their personality has finished forming, thus, before the age of seven. Psychologists acknowledge that there isn’t much that can be done after that age to change the basic components of the personality itself. One can be taught different actions or ways of responding, etc, but to expect people to change who they are when their parents failed to get them the help they needed because of ignorance or their own selfishness, most likely due to npd as well, is to put a burden on them that they cannot carry, unfortunately. ☺ There is no known cure for npd at this time, hence the experimental stage for microchip implants in the brain to simulate empathy regarding the amygdala. I would also suggest that the Holy Spirit can do all things but i know mr. Tudor would not welcome such theory, bless him. 💙

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      2. As I read all of these, I get a lot of flashbacks to watching narcissism form in my brother and why I felt so guilty all my life without knowing why. My mother would sit us down in psychological abuse sessions to test our character. For example, lying and then seeing if we would blindly believe her just to agree.
        I have a very vivid memory of her doing it to my brother and watching him trust her. I watched him jump into her rabbit hole. Her face afterwards to me said “I am not responsible for anyone else. See what he chose to do?” I would have been 5 or 6. They were her horrible control sadist sessions.
        This so much mirrors how my narc boyfriends set me up to react. They are probably enacting the same scenario from childhood. Creating their same trusting child in you, then pouring hatred as they did on to themselves.
        My brother failed to see the lie and his character grew from there. I still feel guilty. I remember I was so ashamed I didn’t help him.
        I told him at one point he had been lied to and by this stage he was nonchalant. “Don’t worry, in the boss.” And his nsrcisssistic attitude grew from there.
        He went into utter denial of the hatred my father had tortured him with. He was humiliated and never treated fairly. He was an energetic and open vulnerable boy and he had that hit out of him until he went dead.
        I don’t think in relationships you should minimise the brain damage of what you were dealing with. These are not capable beings anymore. They can feel small vulnerabilities but were never able to comfortably engage with themselves as we can.
        Sometimes focusing on the abuse itself is an easier concept to understand or deal with than the grief and mystery that they don’t exist.
        It happened to him so quickly, maybe over a few months and then I remember I had lost my brother. All he could tell me was how good he felt and he seemed happy he had solved his problem, “why does my father keep hitting me?”
        Why, was because my mother enabled it to keep her marriage when she had come from constant abandonment.
        I didn’t save him, I was worried about losing my parents and I put myself first.

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      3. Oh violet, this is so sad to read😞
        You lost your brother due to the abuse. But what makes u think u could have saved him? U were a child too and unfortunately, u did not have the cognitive capacity to do so.

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      4. Well now I’m starting to recognise the abuse of my mother in making me believe I was adult enough.
        If I could have seen th devil she was I would have never spoken to or looked at her.
        I have Stockholm syndrome on so many levels. I just wanted to leave that house. I just wanted to exit. But I was trapped.

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      5. I’m so sorry violet. Well u made a good choice to gain answers frm participating and reading this blog. It is very therapeutic being here. I hope u can heal over time. 💗
        I am sending you a warm hug.

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      6. Interesting point Amber, I also learned how implants to stimulate vagus nerve and specific brain regions are hopeful methods for treating those of us abused but outcomes very different – dissociative disorders, unresponsive clinical depression and the like – often mostly endured from severe traumas in childhood. I really have chalked it up to this – available coping resources, internal vs externalizing traits or learned conditioning, age and stage of development at which point traumas began, frequency, duration, and severity. I truely believe from all my studying and personal experiences that these factors dictate most of those who fall in the cluster b club especially, if not all PDs, it’s all from ability or inability to process and unresolved severe inescapable trauma aka complex ptsd. It’s odd how similar I am to those who are or have been my abusers. I think maybe that’s my hook? Repeatability and extension of the belief of being able to face our fears and overcome it? Idk. I’m a mess though after facing mine in therapy previously – it made me think I was mostly healed and I jumped from the frying pan to the fire! Anyway sorry for the rant, you got me thinking and discovering and that is helpful. Thank you.

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    2. Good points but some of us married narcs and had their children. Therefore we parents can’t just cut ties and run. We will be raising the genetic inheritance of the disorder in some cases and so it is beneficial to continue the fight, not just for our children but for the world/new generations. It’s tiring so i think that a balance is what is needed, like you suggested, and im so glad for this article because it helps me get perspective.

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  21. The dynamic of victim N and saviour hits home with me . It explains why when I spoke to him about him having a personality disorder he did not go into denial or fury but enjoyed my interest in him. I truly do not believe that any other formal relationship of his has ever discussed it with him . He enjoyed the role of being the tortured soul with the disorder ( therefore the disorder is to blame for everything ) not him. He also told his family and they spoke to me about it . He said that I was tolerant of his disorder and understanding . This is bullshit but still he is getting fuel from this . I think the combination of his age , his options and the approach I took was appealing to him. He may struggle to find a new formal partner that wants to explain and discuss narcissism endlessly only to receive more word salad and fake promises . He doesn’t like the word narcissist but is very pleased to talk about and admit his Disorder !! I’m sure I am the saviour to his victim and he likes that plus I tick other boxes . Of course I’m not deluded I can’t be replaced , but not everyone understands narcissists and I did see things from his point of view as I have learnt from you HG

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    1. Been thinking along similar lines recently, the past week for sure… idk if anyone else will be able to explain, discuss, and – the kicker I think for this relationship anyway – hold him accountable (well… try to anyway lol) and call him on his crap similarly, unless it’s an experienced psychologist or psychiatrist specialising in cluster B PDs. And I see how that’s both for better or worse. Better because no one else will waste so much time and energy in the same way of dissecting analysing and rejustifying his own ‘why’ to present ever ready streams of plausible explanations and fuel to be stored away to be used against us or others even if having the best intentions when we give these explanations for or to him, to ourselves, and anyone else.

      Worse because either he keeps on running and hiding from it thinking he’s won until confronted with something that forces him to see it again (midlife, illness, success or failure? Idk MMRN and incredible hulk episodes led me to think that either way, he’s throwing a pity party for good and negative events in life, again how contradictory to never seemingly ‘win’ yet entire drive is for that very moment it happens), which feels like he’s still just getting away with it, and worse because this I assume makes us bright bullseye targets for additional Hoovers, malign or pleasant depending on whether we can stomach the fake martyrdom for even a second longer.

      Ugh the thought of having to just the thought of his whining and indignant explanations that shockingly to him just really counteracts sympathy…(my guy friends have a saying that ignites a similar feeling from what I can tell any this is expressed by staying with no hesitation that a person, place, action, or thing “drives their dick into the ground”… That is what his excuses do for my empathy but yet… The anger I still want to fight him on making it right!! Lol what a messy cookie I can be – sometimes I wonder see whether I’m just as equally confusing and contradictory as he was and his denials and silent punishments continue to be.

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  22. HG: Considering that genes can be changed through consciousness and life style, also that neuronal pathways can be changed the same way, and also that behaviour according to certain values is an active choice …. you still use your being a victim of genes plus nurture as an excuse for not taking responsibility for yourself, for your being. You are not a passive victim of being subjected to any needs. So, go safe yourself. 😉

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    1. I am already saving myself through what I do. You keep missing that because you expect me to behave by reference to your perspective.

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  23. I don’t know if you’ve had the chance to ever observe or write about groups of female narcissists. I know you say they don’t go after other narcissists but either I was involved in an exception or this is something that has escaped your attention because it was irrelevant in your life.
    I grew up with ten narcissists in a group of varying ranges. two lesser, five mid and two greater sociopaths. All are still in contact and I felt growing up that their entire existence depended on the group. It was a babyish dependence that operated on a communist view of emotions and identity. That is, there is not enough to go around for everyone, that there is not enough good feelings for everyone so it has to be won.
    I would be interested on your take of female narcissists if you have observed them.
    To my knowledge, I was the only empath they associated with in any close way. Perhaps they didn’t mind me as I’m very practical and assertive and fair. They restricted their abuse to my face, but one of them cheated with my boyfriend and I know others insulted me behind my back.
    All of them live a secret world with Brady-bunch like stories as facades.
    I noticed growing up, they were chronically insecure. They could not challenge their parents’ authority. They spoke lovingly of their parents even though I observed the control and abuse. They reacted with fury if I criticised their parents even though I was trying to defend their right to be individuals. They had been brainwashed. They had subscribed to a ‘system’ whereby they forewent their beliefs to keep trying to win.
    They carried on this view to the world with an over-dependence on the views of teachers and later employers. They didn’t know how to feel they had done a good job. They only subscribed to others’ standards in order to feel safe and in control. “Do not trust myself” seemed to be their catch-cry. If i outwardly trusted myself it was almost an offensive display toward their parents. They trusted their parents.
    Asking them their opinions on things was interesting because they would often recite what other people said.
    They didn’t experience spontaneous joy but laughed if it was agreed by everyone else first that something was funny. I always though I had a major mental health problem growing up because I could not for the life of me understand them. NOw I see it was them suffering disorders! Who would have been able to guess it?
    I think most of them fit your mid range description, believing they are good people. Actually at their core, they believe giving up their real self was “good.” Then they feel entitled to take out the rage on everyone else.
    To this day I do not think they have been able to get out of the denial that they were abused.
    They have identified with their abuser and have chronic Stockholm syndrome to believe everything that is honest and real is threatening. They do not understand their anger and superiority is a stress symptom of being lied to.
    I think if they faced it, they would be like babies running around in terror. They would lose all points of reference. They have no natural points of reference.
    I saw them getting worse as they got older when I cut them off at 25. I just know they will pass on the same problem to their children, and so our abusive world continues.
    Why? Because inside, they still think “my mummy and daddy wouldn’t do that to me.”

    1+
  24. HG, Thank you for yet another insightful post. I have learned more about me from reading your blog and books than I have from the two wonderful therapists I worked with to get over the addiction to the Narc. Your words are empowering and have helped me become a better me. I thank God for helping me find you.

    2+
  25. Saviour co-dependent here…
    I do not feel like i can save the world though.
    I very much feel like i can help my ex narc. I started doing phone and text ‘therapy’ with him since he refused to see a licensed therapist. I asked him abt his childhood, told him his behavior is not his fault rather npd is to be blamed. I told him i am here for him if he needs to talk etc. I had him take the narcissistic personality inventory, the results of which we later discussed. I feel deep down he is a good person. However, i am trying to keep very minimum contact with him these days because after having done all that for him, sometimes i still see his uncaring side. So i finally decided to protect myself. Yes, i was delusional but i’m trying not to be anymore.

    2+
  26. Who cares if someone wants to be a savoir/hero/heroine… so what if it is narcissistic… the intention is for a greater good and it is healthy to be a little narcissistic. The only reason it is demeaned is because, or annoying to a few of you, it seems like that Dudley Do Right attitude… and how can people really be like that, right? We all want to be a bad ass super hero and help good to prevail…

    What is narcissistic is a bunch of people standing around watching someone getting hurt regardless if it is emotionally or physically and doing nothing about it.

    I identify with the savior part of empathy, HOWEVER I am not so gung ho that I get angry, forceful and/or violently attack anyone just to be someones hero (JUSTICE FOR ALL…even the bad f’ers, I like peace.). I also no longer believe that a narcissist can be saved… I suppose they can change what they want to accommodate their needs but it will never be for US. Doesn’t mean I won’t take the time to give a little fuel… but I won’t give my entire self anymore. I have to be my own savoir too! You can’t heal or help anyone if you can’t save yourself first.

    You can’t fix what isn’t broken and we aren’t advanced enough to actually repair parts of the brain that is non-functioning. Everybody is different… and if you want to argue that fact then I suggest you take a few classes on neuropsychology and neurology.

    9+
      1. HA!

        HG… were you forced to see the light with my post? I would love to say I am sorry but I am not….

        I am EXTREMELY happy in a relationship with a man who has shone me more love and light than I could have EVER imagined… and because of that I am struggling with my own fears. All of the beautiful fears that a narcissist implants in your mind throughout the entire relationship. I am lucky that he understands, he listens and still continues to stay by my side.

        That is something that you should consider writing about…

        How every little seed that y’all plant will inevitably destroy our future relationships if we DO NOT receive proper help. How we need to rewire our thinking so we do not carry and utilize those nasty narcissistic qualities with us. How we need to stop overthinking… because ULTIMATELY, in the end, we sabotage ourselves and any possibility of a relationship. It is utter bullshit, I will NOT be destroyed and I will NOT allow the ex to have a hold on me EVEN with him gone.

        For the record… I still get texts, especially when he doesn’t like what I’ve posted on Instagram… and he is still visually watching me. I also get to add my ex-lesser narcissist husband to that mix as well (and several other exs from high school (who are married, wtf?)… it is funny how so many of you come out of the woodworks when you find out your ex-golden fuel is available. ****BARF****
        It is like a never ending story… I am stronger and I know I do not have to deal with any of it…BUT I highly recommend that everyone get a tall, sexy and fit talisMAN to ward off your ex’s… 😀 Not too mention one that will treat you like a beautiful, rare, exotic and easily breakable flower. Why I allowed anything less is beyond me!

        I will visit from time to time, read and contribute…. after all, I do owe you so much for showing me the truth, enlightening me regarding the future tailing and how to thwart his actions…

        I am worthy of real uninhibited, reckless, and unconditional love… just like YOU and everyone else! <3

        Thank you HG!

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  27. Hi HG, I think I should clarify that neither I nor the therapists knew that I had an addiction to a narcissist at the time. They thought that I was in love. I didn’t believe this. I was frantically researching this online while I was still in therapy. It was a long, torturous and convoluted path to enlightenment. I left the first therapist because although I really liked him he kept wanting to talk about my sexuality. By the time I saw the second one I had found you but she didn’t buy the story that my co-worker was a narcissist. I hope this isn’t too confusing.

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  28. The line below was really interesting and it makes complete sense. Narcissists interfere all the time. When the empath does it, you think they are being noble or helpful, but they are not.

    “They cannot help but interfere when really it is not their business (this is the narcissistic trait of selfishness coming to the fore momentarily).”

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  29. Oh Christ I’m afraid to even read this one after linking to it from another entry… Need some coffee, I feel this pine might bit closer to home than I’d ever like to admit… Good morning? Lol

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  30. Ffs… *Gulps coffee down in a single sip*

    “…it very much boils their piss so they spring into action. Whilst they always look to help people, what really matters to the Saviour Super Empath is bringing people to account for their actions…
    the Saviour Super Empath knows that this person has a kernel of goodness and if they only TRIED to embrace it, let it shine etc then such a difference will appear. They believe the narcissist has it inside of them to make adjustments, amend their behaviour and harness the intrinsic goodness inside of them…”

    And that’s been basically 365 days of beating a dead horse in my life, how about you HG?! Fml

    Sooooo Mr victim MMRN and I danced… I’m so past dancing but… If he’s just damn well TRY to be 5% as decent as he plays at being… If he just one time… Stopped… Being a pseudo victim… It wouldn’t feel like a whole lot of exasperation for nothing. And I know he won’t. Or can’t. Both. But that just makes me sooooo riled up. I want revenge. I feel bad for wanting revenge. I want to kill him from my thoughts,my emotions, my existence. But… I’m so damn mad at myself and at at and at everyone else who tolerates his fakery sweetness knowing full well I did for my share of time too…

    So HG… What do I do to release this shittery do you think? Cause I don’t think I can take much more of this.

    2+
  31. To be fair it’s not a jump In to save someone because I’m the best at life type of deal. Nor a complete let me caretaker you poor baby thing either. It’s a suckered in and then held on by strong sense of integrity and loyalty thing, at least for me it was. Everyone has hard luck. Everyone needs a favour. The stories are just so unreal… Plausible deniability though! And suddenly you’ve invested in so many favours you want your return… Hahahahaha then the warfare really starts. You (we) just don’t know it yet.

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  32. “Mid Range Narcissists treasure Saviour Empaths because of the fact that some Mid Range Narcissists like to play the ‘troubled soul’ or ‘personal demons’ approach. Whilst unaware of what they are, their awareness that there is something not quite right, coupled with their passive behaviours and need for attention, means that the Mid Range Narcissist truly sees the Saviour Empath as the one who will save him from himself, even though this is just part of the manipulation to keep the Saviour Empath hooked”

    He fed into my recovery from being assaulted at university with some sob story about his psycho ex, also being new to bdsm I had no clue what to make of the added icing on that whopper of psycho ex turned into abusive master with him as her pet being ‘made’ into a Dom. I mean… Do I pop some popcorn or mix a gin and tonic for that one? Idk… I was too accepting of people “as they are” from my at that time previous shell of my former self days after the assault. I had come a long way. I was invincible to others toxicity I had thought except the really serious Hannibals of the world anyway… But a traumatised younger guy…? Harmless. Didn’t have a single thought of fixing or mothering him. I just wanted to help him see his own worth and shut up about poor him all of the time *bleh* a tad sfish maybe but we worked together and I was tired of picking up his slack because “poor him”. There was only 3 of us so yeah, something has to give there. So I took one for the team or so I thought. Ironically, after promoted I ended up having to fire him for his own blatent screw up then horrible cover up LOL too bad for me we lived together though…

    2+
  33. HG
    Jesus. So far Im some kind of mixed cocktail . I can hardly wait for the Contagion article to see what that brings. Is there a Super Empath (takes no shit class) article yet to come or is this Saviour one and the same? Another fascinating read. Thank you for unlocking another piece of the puzzle on the Empath side.

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    1. I can tell you that you are not a Contagion Empath NA. There is a Super Empath article already and the Saviour Cadre can layer on to that school.

      4+
      1. HG
        This does sound like me layered onto the SE except that I dont desire to fix the narcissist. Its helpful to know what you are so that you can focus a little extra on the articles that relate, so Im very happy I had the consult. Everyone should have one at least to find out their starting point as it really helps. Still looking forward to the Contagion article-just not in relation to me now. Thank you for your time.

        5+
      2. You are most welcome NA and I agree. It will prove to be of a significant help to people to understand where they sit in terms of school and cadre (alongside that of the narcissist) and doing it through consultation means I can receive more information and be able to provide more insight to that individual.

        6+
    2. This has me questioning now HG whether these examples of types and subtypes/classes, schools, cadres etc … Is this how we’d typically present the first or second time in a role of IPPS and or IPSS vs 4, 5, 6? Experience can be a strong teacher and so we are always fluctuating and changing from them in maybe not evident but cumulative ways, and as variations in life circumstances and resources available to us also change, I assume these examples are mostly first to third times around if we are the stubborn repetitive type who need to make mistakes a good few times until never forget again. I know that you tend towards explaining that these are more static than fluid but I have trouble seeing how we are offering considered across the lifespan. We’d need to evolve if we don’t disintegrate into despair or breakdown and if that’s more of a codependent style of reacting, there’s no other way to travel along this continuum but to evolve and move along it the various combinations in our attempt at understanding and relating so you can understand and relate back to us even if done only habitually at the time… Idk if this makes sense and cellphone is dead now from typing LOL

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  34. Pingback: The Saviour Empath | Knowing the Narcissist by H.G. Tudor  – Signs of a Gay Husband by Debra Sutton
  35. Hi HG

    I’m almost certain that my ex is a narcissist. Everything i have researched and I have observed his behaviour intensely has made me question it. Maybe mid-range narcissist. Otherwise he’s just a serial pathological lyer, skilled manipulator, cheater with borderline personality disorder . I’m a massive empath but when someone does me wrong, you can best believe I’m your worst nightmare. Don’t get me wrong, I feel like hell afterwards and i will cry and feel bad for ages but more dissappointed and heartbroken that he has lyed, that I even had to lower myself to such anger. And more so because he uses gaslighting and the silence massively as a form of defence mechanism which does sting. I still feel compassion for him and I understand who he is and it hurts to know everything he’s done as I always end up forgiving him even though I resent him. Head and heart are the worst two things. I am not sure what empath I am….

    My question is: even though I know his dirty secrets and he knows I know and of course I still love him (because I have a stupid heart), will he hoover despite that I know everything but I still a soft spot for him?
    I don’t want him to hoover but would like a rough idea on the outcome

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    1. He will hoover based on there being a Hoover Trigger and the Hoover execution Criteria being met. The fact he knows that you know about his secrets is just but one factor and this will raise the hoover bar however :-

      a. Other factors may well lower it ; and
      b. The passage of time will cause the erosion of the effect of this knowledge, so the hoover bar will come down.

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  36. Hello HG. Thank you for this really informative article.
    I’m mostly trying to gather the general school of empath i would be rather than cadre at this point.
    Is there is a link to a generalised article of four basic schools of empath please?

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    1. There is an article about the Super Empath, the standard empath is touched on in Sitting Target and Chained deals with co-dependents. I have not finalised an article on the Contagion Empath. I do intend to pull various strands together with information about the schools and cadres of empaths.

      4+
      1. Thank you Mister Tudor. That is so helpful. you have an elaborate systematic program all worked/working out well I imagine. I really appreciate this unusual peephole and your excellent insightful writings

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