What Happens When You Tell The Narcissist He Is An Abuser?



Next to nobody knows that they have been ensnared by a narcissist the first time that it happens. Indeed, in some cases the victim has no awareness until the second, third or even fourth occasion when this happens. The awakening moment usually occurs post-escape or more usually post-disengagement. This means that the opportunity to express this new found knowledge is reduced ; either because you are now maintaining no contact or the narcissist has disappeared (for the time being) with a new victim in his or her grip. Accordingly, the opportunity to confront the narcissist to tell them that he or she is a narcissist is reduced and I have written separately about what the resultant effect is where you declare ‘No! You Are The Narcissist’.

What is more likely to happen is that the victim recognises that they are being abused or if they do not use that word, they do at least realise that the way they are being treated in a way which is wrong, unpleasant or disrespectful. There are of course a whole host of reasons why the victim may fail to recognise what is happening to them and indeed act on any awareness that does occur, but those are points to address in a separate article.

If you realise that you are being abused, what will happen when you turn to the abusive narcissist and tell them that are an abuser and that they are engaging in abusive behaviour with you.

The Lesser Narcissist

The Lesser Narcissist will not deny the behaviour that you complain of. The Lesser tends to use physical violence, sexual violence, verbal violence and property destruction as the main methods of implementing abuse and exerting control. This is because the Lesser operates in a rudimentary fashion through the sudden explosion of heated fury. Make a point to a Lesser that he or she does not like, you can expect, as a minimum to be treated to the eloquent response of “fuck off”, a punch to the face or quite possibly both. Unrefined, vulgar and crass, the response of the Lesser to being wounded or the need to exert control is to lash out in a bullying and obvious manner.

Should you tell a Lesser Narcissist that he or she is an abuser, you will generate two responses which are similar in nature. If you make this allegation in a neutral manner (thus free of fuel) it will wound the Lesser because he realises that it is critical of his behaviour and therefore this wounding will result in an ignition of fury. Thus heated fury follows and you will find yourself on the receiving end of the types of violence which I have described above.

More likely, when you tell the Lesser Narcissist that he is an abuser, you will do so in a way which provides Challenge Fuel. You will probably be upset, hurt, frustrated or angry when you level this accusation at the Lesser Narcissist. This means you are providing fuel. Nevertheless, the Lesser Narcissist will interpret your allegation as one which is challenging his or her entitlement to treat you precisely as he or she sees fit. Remember, in our eyes, you are an object, a possession and we are entitled to treat you as we want. Do not forget that we have a huge need to control and abuse is a significant method of control. Again, in our world, the need to maintain control and the fact that abuse facilitates control results in its validation. Finally, add into the mix that the Lesser has no empathy whatsoever. Your challenging of our perceived right, the challenge to our entitlement, the paranoia-stoked rebellion to our necessary control means that if you scream at the Lesser Narcissist that he is a hateful, abusive bastard means you issue Challenge Fuel. His response will be

a. He instinctively recognises there is more fuel to be obtained here and therefore the simplest way to gather that precious fuel is to provoke you; and

b. You are challenging his superiority and your insurrection must be quashed.

Since the Lesser operates in a rudimentary fashion, his or response will be to give you another dose of the abusive behaviour to ‘get you back into line’.  The Lesser never explains, never justifies – he or she just does because he or she is entitled to do this and if you do not like it, tough shit. In the same way that a Lesser will state an opinion and all who disagree are automatically labelled as idiots and morons (without explaining why they are), the Lesser responds in an automatic and knee-jerk manner based on their unwavering belief that they are right and entitled.

The Lesser does not recognise that this behaviour is wrong. It is your fault. You deserve this behaviour. He or she cannot empathise with your pain and hurt, instead he or she will only see the need to increase it in order to exert control and gain more fuel. The Lesser does not actually address the allegation in any way which you recognise as dealing with it, but instead will launch a verbal attack against you to deflect from your allegation, to put you in your place and to increase your misery. A fist will be driven into your face or your will be shoved to the floor and given two swift kicks. You ought to know your place and that is one of submission. If you tell a Lesser Narcissist that he or she is an abuser, expect an aggressive response designed to quell your rebellious accusation.

The Mid Range Narcissist will adopt a defensive response to any accusation of him or her being an abuser. Just like the Lesser, the manner in which you make the allegation will either cause wounding or (more often) the provision of Challenge Fuel. Being far more passive aggressive in nature, the Mid Range Narcissist will not lash out with a “more of the same is good for you” attitude that the Lesser adopts, but rather they will continue the abusive behaviour through defending their reputation and justifying their behaviour. This operates as follows :-

  1. “I am not an abuser, how can you say that?” The Mid Range Narcissist believes that he or she is a decent person. That is their true perspective and therefore it just does not ‘compute’ that they could be labelled as an abuser because it does not accord with their own view of themselves. There is no insight. Further, not only has the comment offended their view of themselves, but it also offends their view that they have always been ‘good’ to you, when you are asked how you can say that.
  2. “I know you get upset with me at times but that is because you over react.” The key response of the Mid Range Narcissist to being accused of abusive behaviour is to automatically blame-shift. Notice how they do not deny that the act has happened but rather it is your response which is the key to the Mid Ranger being able to avoid any culpability. It is again your fault. Whereas the Lesser lets you know that it is your fault just because it is, the Mid Ranger will at least tell you why it is your fault

“You are too sensitive.”

“You take too much to heart.”

“Don’t be silly, you read too much into things.”

Thus the narcissist dilutes the effect of the behaviour by suggesting it is the perspective of the victim which is the problem and not the narcissist.

3. If the Mid Range Narcissist does not suggest that it is the perspective of the victim that is the issue, then they will blame-shift in a further way by glossing over the abusive behaviour and instead focusing on the victim as being the catalyst for the abuse and therefore it cannot be the fault of the Mid Ranger. He or she does not necessarily deny that the behaviour has taken place, but their automatic need to maintain the upper hand means that their perspective ensures that the victim is the one who is blamed. Accordingly,

“I know you get upset when I do not speak to you, but if you let me have some peace and quiet rather than nagging me all of the time, I would not have to do it.”

“I slapped you because you were out of order shouting at me the way you did, that is no way to talk to your husband.”

4. The Mid Ranger also deflects by ignoring the abusive behaviour (again not denying it has taken place) but removes any validity of the accusation by deflecting and does so by pointing out all of the good things that the Mid Ranger does for the victim. There is also a good dose of projection in these responses too.

“I cannot believe you pick on one minor incident where I lost my temper after all of the things I have done for you recently.”

“I find it a bit much for you to accuse me of such behaviour when I have been working my nuts off to provide for this household. That really is not fair. Do you know how much pressure I have been under as of late?”

“I said those things because they are true and you don’t appreciate anything I do for you, nothing at all. You always seize on the one thing which I apparently do wrong and castigate me for it whilst you ignore all of the really good things that I do. How is that fair?”

5. The False Mea Culpa. The Mid Range Narcissist may well acknowledge that what they have done is unpleasant and hurtful and rather than blame-shift on to the victim as described above, they transfer culpability to something else.

“I don’t know what came over me, I think someone must have spiked my drink.”

“I have no idea why I did that, it must be all the pressure at work.”

“That’s not me that does that, it is like, it is like there is some demon or something which takes over from time to time. I need some help, will you help me?”

“I know there is something wrong with me, I just cannot help it, it isn’t the real me, I want to stop it, I will see someone about it and together we can conquer it.”

Notice how there is no accountability, it is some other ‘force’ or event which has caused the aberrant behaviour. The Mid Range Narcissist also deflects from what they have done by making it all about them in terms of them being a tortured soul, needing help, needing the support of the victim. This apparent contrition not only regularly cons the victim (because it is not genuine but is just a further manipulation) but it also results in plenty of fuel for the Mid Range Narcissist as he is “fussed” over by the victim and third parties.

The bottom line with the Mid Range Narcissist is that they will never accept they are an abuser. They are not programmed to do that as they have no emotional empathy. They might understand how their conduct is considered as ‘wrong’ by you and other people, because of their increased cognitive function but their disorder will not allow them to accept accountability for it. If they did, they would lose control and lose fuel and therefore they are automatically conditioned to reject any suggestion of culpability or accountability for the abuse.

The victim will be suckered into thinking either it is their fault (they over-reacted, they have been getting on the Mid Ranger’s back more recently (yes, with justification but they are dissuaded from seeing it that way) or that the Mid Ranger recognises and accepts they have abused the victim. Typically, rather than get away having (apparently) secured the truth (as a truth seeker) the victim stays in the hope of securing the healing of the abuser which they long for (alongside all of the other reasons why a victim remains with an abusive narcissist).

The Mid Ranger will maintain the façade that he or she is a good person, blame-shift and then if necessary created waves of sympathy for their behaviour whilst still not accepting they are to blame for it.

The Greater Narcissist knows the behaviour is abusive and sees it as entirely necessary to the fulfilment of his or her aims, namely control, and The Prime Aims. The Greater Narcissist also lacking emotional empathy, guilt or remorse sees what they do as a function. The Greater Narcissist knows what they are doing but the overriding need for control and superiority means that it is entirely acceptable to abuse.

Of course, the aware Greater Narcissist recognises that to make such an admission to the victim is a foolish one as this would cede control to the victim, something which must not happen. The Greater Narcissist adopts a triumvirate approach to any allegation that he or she is an abuser

  1. Total Rejection.
  2. Misperception.
  3. Threat

Through Total Rejection, the Greater Narcissist will just dismiss the allegation. Able to control his or her ignited fury with a far greater degree of control, the glacial Greater will just wave a hand and tell the victim

“That’s not abuse, punching somebody is abusive, what I did, is not abuse.”

“Don’t be so silly, I do not abuse you. Does an abuser take someone to the premiere of the new Bond movie and the after performance party? No they do not.”

The Greater is able to do this because he or she control their ignited fury, the fact that they speak and operate with a supreme confidence and conviction and because the nature of the abuse doled out by the Greater is done in such a calculated, insidious and mind-fucking manner that the victim (with eroded self-worth and reduced critical thinking) is easily led to the conclusion that it cannot be abuse. The Greater acts with plausible deniability. There are no marks from the kick to the lower back that a Lesser would leave. No finger tip bruising from the Mid Range hand about the neck. No witnesses, no observers, no evidence. Your word versus ours.

Misperception is also used. Greaters enjoy gas lighting you as the finesse and skill required appeals to our more sophisticated approach to abuse. Of course whilst we see this as an almost noble way to abuse you, it remain abuse nevertheless.

“Don’t be silly darling, that never happened.”

“We must get you back to the doctors, you are hallucinating again.”

“I told you not to mix that medication and vodka, see what it has done? It has you thinking horrible things about you and me.”

Events never happened, actions have been perceived by you inaccurately. Throw in the game-playing of our Coterie and our Lieutenants and you will find yourself in a dizzying and disorientating nightmare where the abuse never did happen because of your mistaken perception.

Finally, threat will be used. Here, the ever confident Greater will admit that the abuse has happened but makes it very clear with an accompanying reptilian smile that if you ever breath a word of it to anybody else then the resulting repercussions will be a hundred times worse than what you have experienced before. The jet-black eyes fixed on you and the steady delivery of such a threat readily convinces you that this is the case. Having experienced the abuse and also being well-aware of what the Greater is capable of, the Greater’s admission gets you no further forward. Instead, you may think you have gained some power through achieving this admission, but you actually have a sword of Damocles hanging over your head now, reminding you of the threat attached to acquiring this power. In reality, it is not power at all.

With regard to the issue of abuse, it is pointless to try and gain acknowledgement from the abuser. You will not receive validation and instead you will face further abuse and manipulation.

If you require validation as to what is happening to you, rely on your gut instinct and read Manipulated, Devil’s Toolkit and Black Flag as within those pages you will find all the confirmation you require which will give you the logic to move to the next stage of countering and escaping that abuse,

68 thoughts on “What Happens When You Tell The Narcissist He Is An Abuser?

  1. Teacy says:

    So, I guess my question is what range is the narcissist that turns it around and say you are the narcissist after calling them out since it is not addressed above.\?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See the articles “No! You Are the Narcissist.”

  2. Milly says:

    HG, did you engage in any of the Macdonald Triad traits as a child? These were cruelty to animals, obsession with fire-setting and bedwetting? Is this the realm of a malignant narcissist or only for more sociopathic/homicidal criminals?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You will have to access Knowing HG.

  3. bw says:

    I had an opportunity before disengaging to “dress down” the narc and tell him he was abusive.

    He ran…. and is now hiding. He is a mid range narc . . . and self aware to a point, and afraid of being discovered by his “friends”.

    Me, i’m no contact, and ive ignored the flying monkeys. Although i believe HG completely when you say that the narcs intend to keep you in their life’s forever. I chose not to keep him in mine.

  4. PhoenixRising says:

    My mother is a midranger. You hit the nail on the head with those responses. She will never see or accept that she has done any wrong. In a recent letter she wrote me trying to suck me back in, she told me she forgives me for wanting to hurt her for the things I think she’s done. (Eye roll) And my close friends wonder why I don’t just lay it all out there for her- the abuses I suffered at her and stepdad narcs hands- because I know it will get me no where. There is no point. Better to just walk away and stay away.

    1. J says:

      Ah, Phoenix, the kindly advice from friends and family. “Just talk to her.” “I’m sure he didn’t mean it.” “If you talk it out, things will be better.” I have gotten these pieces of advice all my life regarding DadN. At times insistent; other times even hurtful. Hogwash! You know the truth, Phoenix. Hold to that and ignore all those voices offering advice about something which they do not understand in the least. The ONLY thing you can do, is stay away.

      1. PhoenixRising says:

        J and K, thank you both. Cutting ties from my narc parents is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I have no intention of retracting my no contact no matter how much guilt I feel or crap I might get from others because it is quite honestly not safe for me to do so. My stepdad is a violent and volatile lesser narc. I must protect my self and my children.

        1. K says:

          Good for you PhoenixRising! Put yourself and your children first. My father was a violent lesser, too. Sorry that you had to deal with that; you deserved better.

    2. K says:

      That is correct; we have to dis-engage for our own sanity.

  5. Blank says:

    Derpy, I am really sorry for you that you had to go through all this shitty abuse as we all have. It really helps to be here and find people that understand what you say right away. People that were never the object of narcissistic abuse totally do not get what it is about. You try to explain, but they look at you like you are a complete idiot. Like you say: they tell you you dwell in the past, you must like the abuse, they don’t understand why you need to talk about it. Can’t you just get over him?..
    They do not get it. And to be honest, I think I wouldn’t understand why someone would stay with an abuser if I had not experienced it myself. I went back to him so many times, I didn’t understand what was happening, why the abuse, why no closure? Why all the ‘kicking me out-pulling me back in’ crazyness? I am really so grateful to have come across this website. My mind is at peace now, the anxiety has gone. HG does a real good job.
    I hope you will heal now Derpy. Once you understand, you know what to do and you’ll soon find yourself and your life back again. Take care xx

    1. Derpy says:

      Thank you so much. I agree. I was once in the spot of thinking “If someone ever abused me I wouldn’t stick around” and never knew it could come on so stealthily. I never knew it could be like this. And for the longest time, I thought it was like he was one person when he was physically with me and a different person when he wasn’t. I didn’t make the connection past that LOL! But we’ve got this. Now we know.

      1. K says:

        My pleasure Derpy. We have all been there and knowing exactly what happened and why is a huge relief. You will find all your answers here. You were never wrong; the blame lies with your mid-ranger.

  6. Jenna says:

    Hi hg!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Jenna.

      1. Jenna says:


  7. Derpy says:

    Okay, he is definitely a mid ranger, with some other effects. I can’t even begin to tell you how many times I heard things like “I can’t believe you think I’m abusing you. I think I’ve improved! I bought you that $60 teddy bear and everything!!” I specifically said I didn’t want that bear less than a week before. Or how many times I heard:

    “You’re being too sensitive”
    “You are wrong, you only see things this way because of your crappy childhood ruining you. I am trying to help you see things better.”
    “Why do you always take everything the wrong way?”

    The majority of the relationship, he would say, “I know, I’m a dick. But I acted that way because you (did something wrong)”

    The other part of the relationship, he started to supposedly admit that something was wrong, that he needed me to help him get better and that he couldn’t do it without me. That without me, he would have no reason to keep going on. Promised therapy that never really happened and would continue to promise me he was trying really hard only to rip me to shreds each time every few months.

    This all went on for way too long. 8 years, HG. He had me thoroughly convinced and believing that he was somehow connected to my actions, that everything I did had an effect on how his behavior would end up. I tried to break it off, I tried to walk away and in the end each time, it came to me apologizing to everyone for the scenes he caused and the stress he handed out to everyone in our vicinity and me going back to him with my tail between my legs, having been talked into how it’s all my fault because I’m a terrible person. I would seriously message people incessantly apologizing for everything. Then one day, a girl I was apologizing to said, “Sweetie, it’s not your fault. He acted the way he acted for his own reasons. That’s on him, not you.” and refused to accept my apology because I had done nothing wrong.

    I can’t even tell you how many times I tried to reach out anonymously to forums online (before I suspected narcissism or had any clue about it) to try to tell my story and reach out and get help on how to get away and how many times someone would tell me “If you didn’t want to be with him, you wouldn’t be and you’d just leave. Obviously you like the treatment.” And I did NOT like the treatment. Even one of our mutual friends said “Just leave. If you didn’t want him to treat you badly, you wouldn’t allow him to do this all to you, if it is true.” In the end, she sided with him because clearly I was just creating drama for no reason. I just truly was brainwashed into believing that I HAD to deal with it. It came to a point where I was afraid to disagree or argue with him at all, before I finally got the courage to actually end it and walk away. I practically believed that it was my calling to accept/live with/soak in the abuse because if I didn’t, he would direct it at someone else and I couldn’t stand the thought of anyone else suffering with what I’d been through. I literally threw myself on that grenade. I took one “for the team”. I was the whipping girl. And it still hurts me, knowing what he might do elsewhere to hurt someone, but I’ve learned that I can’t be there to help someone else come out of it (should the need arise) if I don’t take care of me first.

    Seriously, HG. This site was one of the first places I came to when a friend of mine mentioned the word “narcissism” after the way he saw the ex blow up. I swear, it’s changed my life. And I wish others would come here who’ve never dealt with a narcissist or without having been ruined by one to learn what it entails. Thank you, so much for the information I’ve been handed here to better assess and improve my own life.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome, thank you for reading and naturally the way to get others to come here is to promote this blog and my works.

      1. Derpy says:

        I definitely do what I can to share the blog. I don’t have a large following, that’s for sure. And some of the people witnessed the full downfall of the relationship in a 2 year window. A few of them kind of think I’m just dwelling on that past. And maybe I am, but that’s because it’s improving my future, understanding it more. Also, to me, this feels like the perfect kind of “support group” of narc survivors. There are some great and understanding people here!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I appreciate you spreading the word.

    2. K says:

      I am sorry you went through that. This is the best place to be, I am glad you found this site and everyone here has been through this type of abuse so we understand exactly what you have articulated in your comments. I am glad that girl told you that it wasn’t your fault, because she was correct. You were targeted and you are blameless. Once I found HG, I felt a huge sense of relief. I wasn’t crazy or bi-polar I had been abused and I found all my answers here and you will too.

      1. Derpy says:

        Thanks, K. I’m glad to be here and to know that so many of you are so understanding and have been there too! I’m glad she did too, as it was the first time anyone had ever suggested to me that he was in the wrong and it opened my eyes so much. It’s so good to finally know that it wasn’t all that crap he kept saying.

      2. Nuit Étoilée says:

        It really is a gigantic help to know it’s not just in our heads, and that we are most definitely not alone.

        The support offered by the other posters here really is precious.

        I am particularly grateful to you, K.

        1. K says:

          You are so very welcome Nuit Étoilée, and thank you for your kind words! There are so many kind people here, they understand the dynamic and we are not alone anymore.

  8. Gord says:

    I have experienced many of these tactics and behaviors over the past 40 years with my ex. Unfortunately my daughter has adopted many of the same behaviors. She has two children of her own now and recently separated from their father. He is now in jail for crimes he didn’t commit and estranged from his children.
    I have chosen to minimize contact with her. I love her dearly but will not allow myself to be caught up in this disfunction. A tough choice but is necessary in order to maintain my serenity.
    For many years and many thousands of dollars I turned myself inside out to spend time with her. Her mother would go to any length to prevent court ordered access as my daughter is now doing to the father of her children.
    This is unacceptable and is history repeating itself.
    It has been a difficult journey and one that has necessitated much inner reflection and resulted in making decisions based on truths.
    I hope and pray that we as decent human beings can look beyond this black hole and move on to living a healthy and productive life.
    Too many lives have been lost and ruined at the hands of Narcs.
    Let’s be the change for each other and future generations!

  9. Nuit Étoilée says:


    Not to detract from the excellent information in this essential article, but my god.. the video on this one.. YOUR VOICE!! THAT DELIVERY!!



    *Fuck off.

    I like it when you put the links to the audio/video versions of the articles at the bottom of the post..

  10. narc affair says:

    Ive never told my mother i thought she was a narc but ive brought the topic up in a round a bout way a few times. She seemed oblivious but my stepdad seemed agitated by me bringing it up. Maybe he suspects shes a narc or he himself is.
    This past weekend i did confront her on her over excessive wine drinking. She started picking on my daughter and lecturing me. Gaslighting like crazy. I asked her why shes started drinking this past year and that i was concerned. Her being a victim narc shes drawing it out and not admitting to what could be wrong. She likes the attention. So i told her our home is now a alcohol free home.
    She texted today saying sorry which is very rare. Still no explanation as to why the excessive drinking. She never was an alcoholic so why now?

    1. K says:

      narc affair
      Is she having a fuel crisis or is her fuel matrix changing. I noticed when my narc knitter’s children went off to college she started looking for more negative fuel from her friends/appliances.

      1. narc affair says:

        Hi k…im half wondering if theres been a falling out with my brother or his wife. I do sense somethings amiss. I do worry about her. Despite the shitty way shes treated me i dont want to see her suffer. I just want us to have our own lives and be decent to one another.
        I do know what you mean about fuel shortage and narcissists trying to extract negative fuel. Quite often they need the negative fuel to distract from the inner pain of buried conscience and i do think some narcs have a conscience its just well hidden. I think deep down my mother has regret but i also think she projects blame on me and resents me. Possibly this is why she took up drinking.
        Also she opened up after a few drinks and told me her and her favorite cousin had a falling out. Theyre like sisters and have never stopped talking but her cousin said not to call her anymore bc she felt my mother was calling her a lier. I do wonder if this has impacted her.

  11. J says:

    I confronted my N about his abuse on numerous occasions. Of course, everything HG describes for a Mid-range was used verbally. However, one time he actually acted like he was cleaning his car as he listened, seemingly intently, and threw the few pieces of garbage he found on the mat of passenger seat, where I was sitting. I’ve noticed this a few times with my Ns (Dad too). That they use these little sideways fuckyous to communicate what they want to say, but that “a good guy” like them would never actually say or do. I think it’s called Sideways Aggression, but I’m not exactly sure.

    1. K says:

      This might be helpful. This comment is located on

      Listful Dahlia
      JUNE 3, 2017 AT 23:01
      Hi HG. These are all very accurate. I’ve experienced all of these. There’s another category that bothers me on reflection. These are the “micro” devaluations – the ones that make you feel bad, but they such small gestures that they are easily dismissed. Do you know about these?

      HG Tudor
      JUNE 7, 2017 AT 12:41
      Indeed I do, it is all part of the insidious and salami-slicing nature of what we do.

  12. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,

    I maaaaaay have mentioned in my final berating to my mid ranger friend that he had “mentally abused” me and that he was a “coward” for not being open and honest. I said he concocted stories… he replied “I did not concoct anything”. “You’re being too senitive”, “women read to much into things” and “you’re overreacting” were his standard phrases. He basically ignored my comments. Lying by omission.

    If a liar says it often enough to himself … he believes it and it becomes the truth.

    Oh well!

    Excellent eye opening article!

  13. Mona says:

    When I said to my mother, you abuse me, she said : “Does that matter?”
    That was the only honest answer I ever got. A little bit out of role. Normally she uses all of the other narcissistic phrases all of you mentioned above.

    Therefore she knows what she does! She is not a greater one, she is not a full blown narcissist, she never destroys Christmas or other family events, no drama allowed on family events. Only peace.

    She has no lack of insight. It is the lack of conscience, the envy about my “youth”, the lack of real empathy, the lack of love and the selfishness.

    HG, I cannot believe you, that there is a lack of insight. They all know what they do.

    They only deny it, even to themselves. Then they can say, that they have a “good” conscience.

    No, I cannot agree that most of them do not know that they do abuse.

    They lie a little bit more than you. Funny, isn`t it?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is nothing to do with belief, it is a fact. Lessers do not see it. A Mid Ranger can sometimes see it but never accepts any blame as an automatic self-defence mechanism.

      1. Mona says:

        HG, I correct my second last sentence. They lie a little bit more to themselves than you.
        Probably you are right with the lessers, but I still disagree about the midrange. I am persuaded, that most of them know what they do. And of course they do not accept any blame for it.

        Maybe it depends on which kind of narc we meet in our lives.
        I know, that my personal devil knows what he does. He is proud of his nasty behaviour. He told me about all his nasty manipulations. I was only too gullible to believe it and thought he would exaggerate,, until I became the aim of his evilness. But telling me his thoughts was a great advantage for me, when I realised, that everything was true. I could predict his next steps. Each single step.

        You know your kind very well, but even you cannot look into the brain of everyone. And you have no scientific evidence for your convictions. Therefore it is still a conviction, not a fact.

      2. gabbanzobean says:

        HG, a defensive mechanism for what? The creature thing you told us about? From that?

      3. J says:

        I have hypothesized, HG, that Mid Rangers have almost split thinking when it comes to their abuse, where they both know and deny knowing it. Almost as though they have 2 rooms in their head with no hallway between. With my N it went like this:
        “Yes, I’m a jerk to people”
        “But I don’t care”
        “Because actually I’m a good person, so it’s ok.”
        The mark of a Mid Range, perhaps?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The Mid Ranger can recognise that the behaviour causes a problem for other people but the narcissism, as a self-defence mechanism, will not allow the MR to accept culpability for the behaviour. That way the MR achieves :-

          1. The maintenance of control;
          2. The assertion of superiority;
          3. The maintenance of no accountability;
          4. The appearance of contrition – often the desperate victim only ‘hears’ the recognition of the harm caused and fails to pay heed to the lack of accountability.
          5. The imposition of confusion – where the victim does hear the lack of accountability and therefore cannot reconcile recognition of harmful behaviour with no sense of accountability;
          6. The drawing of fuel – either irritation, confusion, sympathy, anger etc

  14. gabbanzobean says:

    “Notice how there is no accountability, it is some other ‘force’ or event which has caused the aberrant behavior”

    HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Yup!! That’s my cerebral mid.

    Me: “You never talk to me on the phone anymore”
    Him: (politely) “I really hate talking on the phone…”
    Me: “You used to talk to me on the phone for hours!”
    Him: “Well, I guess I am just getting anti-social the older I get….”


    Yep. He accepts the explanation but there is no accountability. It is the “force” of aging! This makes me want to bang my head repeatedly against a wall. He is such an intelligent man! HOW DOES HE NOT KNOW THE DRIVEL HE SAYS MAKES NO SENSE?


    1. Windstorm2 says:

      Maybe he does know it makes no sense. Often their objective is to confuse us. That way he can manipulate you and turn the conversation away from those questions he does not want to answer.

      1. narc affair says:

        Word salad!

    2. K says:

      they use defense mechanisms to protect their false reality/construct from wounding/criticism/disagreement. The construct is used to gather fuel and imprison the creature.

    3. K says:

      He acts on instinct, he has NO insight, he is not culpable and his goal is to keep you miserable, confused and in situ so he can keep drawing fuel from you. It does not matter how intelligent he is; he can’t see the forrest for the trees.

      1. Nuit Étoilée says:

        Absolutely spot on, K.
        – “Words are cheap, take little effort, and are effective” – they’ll say whatever comes to their mind – no matter that it is the exact opposite of what they just said.
        You are spending way more time analysing what he’s said, than he is. He says whatever makes sense to say ‘at that moment.’

        – I love you.
        – but you just said you don’t.
        – that was then, this is now.
        (totally possible imagined conversation)
        “All is as the fuel wills it to be”

        1. K says:

          Excellent! You’ve got it, Nuit Étoilée. And I could not have written it any better. We spend all that time going over and over everything and never moving on; what a waste of time when we should be focusing on ourselves.

          “All is as the fuel wills it to be”

  15. Catherine says:

    I never did tell my ULN straight out that he was an abuser, but I was thinking it lots of times. Somehow I knew things would only get worse and out of hand then. He always acted like I deserved his treatment of me, he refused to discuss anything after an argument, he never saw himself as the problem evidently, but he did wait for my apology.

    I remember once when I just lost it completely during one of his jealous rages and told him that he was mean and paranoid. I actually screamed it at the top of my lungs. He didn’t confront it in any way then, he just started a prolonged silent treatment, but afterwards he wanted to discuss those horrible accusations in detail with me telling me he’d thought we were a happy couple and little did he know that I was harbouring all this resent and anger towards him. The nerve of him! He’d called me a prostitute and whore (and much more) at that same time.

    I still long to have my closure and tell him exactly what he is and what he’s done to me. But I want to stay under his radar right now to heal and I guess it wouldn’t do any good anyway. So I don’t.

    1. K says:

      Don’t feel too bad, I screamed at the top of my lungs too, but I did it more than once. What a bastard, calling you a prostitute and a whore! They are such jerks. And I like how he was waiting for YOU to apologize. What a joke. If you get the chance, please read Closure Denied, I found it very helpful and I hope you do, too.


      1. Catherine says:

        Thank you for your kind thoughts. They are really such jerks these men!

        I remember specifically that we were celebrating our anniversary that time. We’d been together for a year and we went for dinner and drinks afterwards; I mixed up two places we’d visited a few months earlier because they had similar names and he immediately started a fight accusing me of having been unfaithful; it was a complete circus and he did this kind of thing all the time. Then I never understood why; now I know it was all about power and control. But the nerve of him. Sitting me down a few days later having a serious discussion about my shortcomings and my worrying outlook on our relationship, expecting an apology, never apologising himself for his accusations or for calling me a prostitute!

        I guess there will never be any closure; that’s something that I have to work on giving myself; letting go.

        Thanks again for your kindness.

        1. K says:

          You are welcome, Catherine.
          It is a circus, a circus from Hell, and their thought process is mind boggling. Accusing you of cheating simply because you mixed up two places is a clear example of that. And then sitting you down to discuss YOUR shortcomings! WTF. Hell would freeze over before you ever got an apology from him. Please, keep reading and hopefully you will get your closure here. It will take some time but logical thinking will overtake your emotional thinking. I read all your comments and I am very happy you are here.

      2. Catherine says:


        thank you so much. Just being here, reading, absorbing and interacting is invaluable to me. It helps me clear my head and finally see things as they are.

  16. ava101 says:

    One of my ex-boyfriends reacted in the exact mid-ranger blame shifting way when fighting, but I haven’t yet accused him of abuse.

    The ex narc always just said there was no abuse. And that he wasn’t a narcissist. Answered twice that I was a narcissist and abusive. Blame shifted twice, once saying that I somehow triggered downputting remarks from him, that he had no idea how that came to be. And another time that he was different with his new girl friend and that there was no abuse. Everything else he simply denied.

    Matrinarc doesn’t remember anything and I am over-sensitive, of course. But it’s worse that my sisters can’t acknowledge any neglect or abuse and seem to have forgotten how my mother beat my lunch into me daily. Never acknowledged the impossible behaviour of my father. They seem to cling to the facade for dear life …

    1. Catherine says:


      I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through. It’s painful when a parent abuses and refuses to admit it and when even your sisters can’t acknowledge the abuse it’s even worse. It makes you question your memory and your sanity after awhile. I know my narc made me do that anyway.

      My mother abused me, my sister was the golden child, and I’ve talked a lot about this with my sister since then. She wasn’t subjected to the abuse so sometimes she tends to make light of it all, but she does know and recognise what happened. She certainly got more narcissistic traits than me from or childhood but she’s not in any way a narcissist.

      Hugs to you!

      1. ava101 says:

        Thank you so much, Catherine! That’s good that you can talk with your sister!

        I’m not sure what my sisters are, they have their problems, but also lie, are pretty egocentric… oh, well.

  17. Noname says:

    Aww, my favorite guy on the pic. Lol.

    The article is excellent.

  18. A R says:

    “Abuse is a word that is foreign to narcissists. They do not use it, understand it, or can they say it.”


    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not quite right.

      We do use it – we label you as an abuser. We may also refer to having been abused in the past.

      1. A R says:

        I never thought of it that way. Thank you for the insight!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome AR. You are correct in that most of our kind do not see what we do as abuse because of the lack of insight.

      2. gabbanzobean says:

        Yeah, pretty much this. He said that he had to go “NC” with me for his own sanity! LOL. That must make me an abuser! ((EYE ROLL))

  19. Sandra says:

    Flawed Hero MidRange Narc: “I need to work on that”

  20. Windstorm2 says:

    “You’re too sensitive.” “I was only joking.” I heard these all my life from my mother. I absolutely hated it!!

    1. ava101 says:

      I’ve heard and keep hearing the first sentence from my mother, too, all the time. But she doesn’t say “I was joking” she says she can’t remember.

    2. Blank says:

      Right Windstorm! And also “do not overreact”, “don’t be silly” and “that never happened. Still, everytime I see her I get to hear them.
      “That never happened” is the one that frustrates me most, because if it didn’t happen you can’t talk about it.

      1. ava101 says:


      2. narc affair says:

        Hi blank…my mum does this all the time saying something didnt happen when we both know it did or she makes up things i never did thats her newest gaslight game. Its gotten so ridiculous i just let her say whatever and zone her out. When she drinks wine its wayyyy worse!

      3. Blank says:

        I’m sorry n.a., that is awful. You know, they may actually believe it themselves. I read about this. They make a story ‘fit’ so they’ll be content with the outcome and then start to believe it happened that way. Reading this I thought, what if I do that too? I know I don’t, but how can one be sure 100%? Your mind does peculiar things.
        Alcoholics, like my Nex, they don’t remember a thing, Only their own ego stories and anything that relates to them. They forget about uninteresting ‘details’ (like their wife), because they never took notice in the first place. The same goes for my mother. Not interested.
        I can not take the gaslighting crap and I will let them know my side of the story, shutting up doesn’t work for me. I tried, but it makes the anger and frustration go inside myself.
        Take care n.a., don’t let it get to you. Do what works for you.

      4. narc affair says:

        Hi blank…ty for your kind words. Dont ever let anyone get you second guessing if you remembered wrong or believed something happened that didnt ..thats gaslighting effects. Its natural to have memory lapses at times but this is continual where anything i bring up it didnt happen that way. Now with the drinking which is fairly new she will flat out make up things that are so outrageously untrue im left shaking my head in disbelief. Its crazymaking. I have to remind myself…fuel…negative fuel thats what shes after so i ignored her. I let her say whatever and ignored it all. What i could no longer ignore is when she was picking on my daughter and harassing her. Thats when i confronted her on the drinking and explained that my daughter has anxiety and she makes it worse.
        She did text yesterday to apologise but no explanation as to why shes taken up drinking excessively. Probably for attention is my guess and pity. I have to stop falling into the guilt trip of her games.

      5. Blank says:

        That is awful n.a., she’s making up these stories about you. Does she tell them to other people as well? It is very good of you to be protective of your daughter. I also always keep my boys away from my mother as often as possible. Any other remark she makes in a conversation with them is nasty. She doesn’t even realize this. I can see so clearly why I never had self-confidence. I hope your mother will stop drinking n.a., but to be honest I was hoping this for 28 years with my Nex husband.

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