The Saviour Empath


There are four schools of empath (Co-Dependent, Standard, Super and Contagion). There are many cadres of empath which layer on to those schools. These cadres include the Carrier, the Magnet and the Geyser, about which I have written previously. A further cadre is that of the Saviour Empath.

The Saviour Empath’s mission is to heal and to save, to ensure that good prevails. They are the archetypal believer in the idea that there is some good in everybody. With regard to our kind, the Saviour Empath does not consider that we are intrinsically ‘evil’ or ‘bad’. They prefer to adopt the view that there is good locked away inside of us and that it just has to be discovered, unlocked and set free. This notion of course and the desire to address this apparent goodness is a very strong binder which enables us to keep a hold on the Saviour Empath. Indeed, there are those of our kind who will play on this concept and this is addressed below.

The Saviour Empath feels an overriding need to save the world. They wish to right the wrongs, heal the sick, tend to the injured and ensure that injustices are overturned. It is this desire which is at the very heart of the Saviour Empath. The Saviour Empath is often someone who subscribes to a belief system (whether it is organised religion, karma, paganism or similar) although the absence of such a belief does not discount the person as being a Saviour Empath, but a reliance on a belief system is a hallmark of the Saviour Empath.  How does this manifest with regard to each school of empath?

Standard Empath  – the Saviour Standard Empath regards it as imperative that he or she comes to the aid of people. They will donate to charity, help out voluntary organisations and are giving of their time. With regard to the narcissist, this manifests as adopting a sympathetic and compassionate approach to the unusual behaviours (when the empath is not aware they are ensnared by a narcissist) of the narcissist. Accordingly, they regard the narcissist as a ‘good’ person (supported by the narcissist’s illusory behaviour during the golden period) and therefore when devaluation occurs they will ascribe the behaviour to arising from a third party event rather than seeing it as the behaviour of the narcissist at work. The Standard Empath wants to assist the narcissist and does so by trying to understand and offer solutions linked to the aberrant behaviour that is being witnessed. The Saviour Standard Empath whilst wanting to save the narcissist from whatever terrible third party event or influence that is causing the behaviour (for example, is the narcissist struggling at work, is he stressed, has he got problems with money or drink?). The Saviour Standard Empath will put themselves in the firing line when trying to assist, but they do not tend to regard the problem as much to do with them but rather another factor which they want to tackle and overcome.

Super Empath – the Saviour Super Empath is akin to a caped crusader who fires into action whenever he or she witnesses injustice. They cannot help but interfere when really it is not their business (this is the narcissistic trait of selfishness coming to the fore momentarily). The Saviour Super Empath will not turn a blind eye to someone in trouble, they will help the injured person and then look to tackle the perpetrator (or at least bring them to account through formal channels). Thus is the Saviour Super Empath sees someone being attacked, they will help the victim, look to fight off the attacker and/or chase them down, either themselves or enlisting help. They cannot let any kind of injustice go unaddressed. The Saviour Super Empath has a very strong moral compass and therefore when they see something that is wrong, it very much boils their piss so they spring into action. Whilst they always look to help people, what really matters to the Saviour Super Empath is bringing people to account for their actions. If they see a person cutting into a queue (line) they will upbraid the offender. If they witness a person stealing, they will look to stop them or report them. The Saviour Super Empath is a firm believer in the need for good to prevail, whether this is in a situation or in a person. With regard to the narcissist that a Saviour Super Empath is embroiled with, the Saviour Super Empath knows that this person has a kernel of goodness and if they only triedto embrace it, let it shine etc then such a difference will appear. They believe the narcissist has it inside of them to make adjustments, amend their behaviour and harness the intrinsic goodness inside of them. The Saviour Super Empath knows that they are a force for good and they believe that the narcissist can do the same. The Saviour Super Empath recognises that they themselves are good people but that they have some degree of edge to them (their narcissistic traits appearing from time to time) and they often regard the narcissist in the same light – a person who has edge but is intrinsically good – and this fools the Saviour Super Empath in to wanting to assist and save the narcissist.

The Co-Dependent – the Co-Dependent who is of the Saviour Cadre finds the world to be a terrible place and wishes to administer succour to the downtrodden, to assist the hurt, and to heal the wounds of the injured. They are less concerned about bringing the offender to justice and more about attending to the people who are left cowering and broken in the wake of oppression and violence. The Saviour Co-Dependent is a person who is extremely caring and compassionate – the type of person who would join Medicins Sans Frontieres and arriving at the scene of a humanitarian disaster would work themselves into the ground to try and ease the suffering of each and every person even though it is an impossible task. They are often overwhelmed by the cruelty of the world and despair at its evil ways, but this will not stop them from trying to save each and every person who is in need of help. This applies to the way they engage with the narcissist. The Saviour Co-Dependent (“SCD”) knows and is absolutely convinced that the narcissist is at heart a good person and with the right application of guidance, support, compassion and tolerance the narcissist will change, will improve and let that goodness shine. The SCD will not give up on the narcissist, even to personal cost to themselves. They know that redemption is just around the corner, that improvement is on the horizon and they will, with a zeal bordering on delusion, grasp at any sign of improvement or alteration in the narcissist’s behaviour as evidence that their faith has not proven incorrect.

The SCD will flagellate themselves in the pursuit of trying to help and heal the narcissist, their emotional thinking and innate desire to do good, plus their own need to achieve validation through their giving of themselves means he or she will continue to try to achieve the impossible. They will not wish to give up, they will see glimmers of hope, slivers of optimism and fragments of possibility in order to achieve their aim of saving the narcissist.

The Contagion – the Saviour Contagion Empath (“SCE”) will manifest their desire to assist as a consequence of the severe impact felt by them of the negative energy, suffering and misery that accompanies the human condition. The desire to save and resolve, to eradicate the diseased and bring about the healing is different to that of the other schools of empath. The SCE needs to achieve this in order to secure balance, which is their primary aim. By redressing the bad, through their saving good works then balance is restored and the polluting impact upon them of the negative energy which they feel – the manifestation of the woe, misery and hurt that others feel – is removed and no longer (albeit temporarily) ceases to be a burden upon them. With regard to the narcissist, the removal of the dark energy surrounding and flowing from the narcissist’s behaviours has a considerable impact on the finely-tuned SCE. In order to alleviate their own pain, in order to prevent themselves from being consumed by the darkness which they acutely feel, the SCE seeks to save the narcissist from their dark self. They similarly wish to achieve balance with their own personal narcissist or narcissists.

How are these various schools of Saviour Empath regarded by our brethren? As you might expect, the SE is naturally desired by narcissists for their empathic traits, class and special traits too. Accordingly, no narcissist will ever shy away from the ensnaring of the SE. There are certain schools and cadres of narcissist however that desire the SE in particular.

Victim Narcissists desire the Saviour Empath owing to their need to be mothered, looked after and saved from their various ailments (real or imagined). The SE’s desire to bring about healing and resolution is savoured by this cadre of narcissist. Lesser Narcissists will not turn away a Saviour Empath, but they are not favoured (unless the Lesser is of the Victim Cadre) since the Lesser has no truck with the idea of being healed or saved. From what? Will be the mocking response as their  complete lack of self-awareness means that they have no comprehension or need to be saved in that manner.

Mid Range Narcissists treasure Saviour Empaths because of the fact that some Mid Range Narcissists like to play the ‘troubled soul’ or ‘personal demons’ approach. Whilst unaware of what they are, their awareness that there is something not quite right, coupled with their passive behaviours and need for attention, means that the Mid Range Narcissist truly sees the Saviour Empath as the one who will save him from himself, even though this is just part of the manipulation to keep the Saviour Empath hooked. The Mid Range will revel in becoming the pet project for the Saviour Empath and will instinctively play along by tossing a bone of apparent awareness or improvement in order to maintain the hoped for glorious redemption that the Saviour Empath craves.

The Greater Narcissist is likely to prefer other cadres but again is not going to kick the Saviour Empath out of bed for eating crisps. The Greater may find tormenting the Saviour Empath a delightful machination by increasing the visibility of their dark side so that the Saviour Empath sees a challenge which has to be surmounted. Of course, the Saviour Empath is blind to the fact that the Greater cannot be healed or saved, but that will not stop the Saviour Empath from trying time and time again.

82 thoughts on “The Saviour Empath

  1. WiserNow says:


    I know what you mean. It’s sometimes difficult to know how to approach people in public situations etc.

    If it helps, I am now more aware of the people around me and also my own behaviour when in public. The way I approach it is to try being as relaxed and confident as possible without seeking direct contact with anyone in particular. I think this way, you draw as little as possible negative attention to yourself. Then, if someone does approach to have a conversation or to ask a question, I am courteous, however, I am conscious of not being very expressive or saying too much. I also trust my instincts. If the conversation continues, I am friendly (but not overly so), and I am “feeling them out” using my instincts the whole time to figure out the kind of person they are from what they’re saying.

    I think it’s difficult to figure most people out right away. If a stranger starts off being very charming and friendly for no apparent reason, that’s an immediate warning sign. Most people are more reserved though, so it’s not that easy to tell right away.

    1. windstorm says:

      Very good advice! Sounds a lot like how I try to be – relaxed and confident while avoiding eye contact. My exception is children and their caretakers when I am stuck in a line with them, or people I can sense are frustrated, tired or upset. Then I usually try to say something I think will be cheery or uplifting.

      I am most comfortable, though, slipping thru crowds unnoticed. Not out of fear, but it’s more a feeling of strength – that my confidence, vigilance and positive attitude will protect me. It is the Rule of Expectation. What we expect influences our reality and the people around us.

      1. WiserNow says:

        Thank you Windstorm. Yes, I think that feeling of strength and positivity comes with the inner confidence you get from greater awareness and from trusting your own self. This in turn gives you better boundaries and reduces the need to look for safety externally and also reduces the fear of anticipating something bad to happen. If you take steps to protect your own “self” (physically and emotionally), it reduces your reliance on expecting others to do the right thing.

        It takes some conscious work and effort to keep reminding yourself of all these things, but the feelings of strength and calm do slowly grow stronger over time.

        I like your “Rule of Expectation”. It’s true I think. The “energy” we give out does influence our reality and what happens to us.

      2. WhoCares says:


        “I am most comfortable, though, slipping thru crowds unnoticed. Not out of fear, but it’s more a feeling of strength – that my confidence, vigilance and positive attitude will protect me”

        In my opinion; I think this is an ideal way of operating but there are still those who feel entitled to violate the ‘Rules of Engagement.’

        An example, while running basic errands, I was recently ‘cornered’ by a personal narcissist, in public, and managed (somehow) to keep my cool, minimize the interaction, while still helping to maintain the narc’s facade and exit the situation gracefully. The trickier thing for me; was that another person (a suspected narc) was instrumental in aiding my escape. It was so bizarre; as I found myself between a rock and a hard place (and supressing a inner flutter of panic) I chose to accept the help of the ‘suspected’ narc because it was the smoothest way to get out of that situation. I didn’t like it and it felt very surreal but I still felt relief (and if indeed a narc, I’m only a tertiary source to my ‘rescuer’). So, I could say “Whew, that was a close one!” – what I’m actually left with is a sense of unease about the whole thing…

        (HG – do you happen to own an island, where you could start a Empath-only Resort?!)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I only own a hollowed-out volcano on an island, which is my base of operations bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha !

          1. WhoCares says:


          2. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha!! And do you sit in your hollowed out volcano thinking, “How can I make her life crazy this week?” I always love the mental image that conjures up for me!

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Of course not. It just come naturally to me!

          4. windstorm says:

            Of course! Lol!

        2. windstorm says:

          Oooh, “fake it till you make it.” That’s one of my most important tools in my toolkit!

          You described very well how I have felt much of the time. I’ve always had to stay wary and watchful around people and it does get wearysome. I’ve spent a large part of my time alone, recharging myself so I’d have the energy and peace of mind to cope with social situations like the one you described.

          What I’ve always wanted to do was to be able to trust everyone, but that of course, didn’t work. What I’m moving more towards is to see everyone clearly and trust them to be what they are. This removes the fear, ET and wishing people were who I would rather they be, instead of who they are. It also ends the longing of wishing things were different than they are.

          This may not make sense. It means I trust the narcs to be narcs, the jerks to be jerks, the whiny to whine. I keep my bubble of peace around me and watch life go on around me like an interactive movie. I do still have to be alone a lot to recharge my “batteries,” but I’m so much more at peace and don’t have the fear and worry that I used to have.

          One of my narc friends likes to say that she trusts the universe to always give her what she needs. I’ve come around to that thinking myself. If I stay open and positive, then the universe provides. That’s how I’d consider your situation when the one narc provided your escape from the other narc.

          1. WhoCares says:


            You make perfect sense…

            ” It means I trust the narcs to be narcs, the jerks to be jerks, the whiny to whine. I keep my bubble of peace around me and watch life go on around me like an interactive movie. I do still have to be alone a lot to recharge my “batteries,” but I’m so much more at peace and don’t have the fear and worry that I used to have.”

            In general, I think I’ve mostly been this way my whole life – I tend not to judge too harshly and I get along with most personalities – and just give wide berth to those that I view as “troublemakers.”
            I also require a bubble of peace around me and don’t have high expectations of others unless they disturb this bubble – respect the bubble and I’ll respect you. This mostly got me through life…that and being highly self-aware, creative, and willing to learn.
            But this whole narc thing has just thrown me for a loop. I have similar needs in how I ‘recharge’ my batteries – I just feel like my batteries are fully tapped out.

            I’m happy to hear that you find yourself more at peace these days…I cannot wait to say the same – but I get that you can’t just ask the universe to rush these things. It’s definitely a process.

          2. windstorm says:

            Who Cares,
            Be sure you’re taking “me time.” You have to set aside alone time to recharge. It’s all too easy to get wrapped up in problems and work and family responsibilities and put off your own time you need for yourself.

            I try to take time each day to sit alone outside in nature. When I miss out on this time, I can really feel the difference in myself. I’m much more irritable, less confident and just less “settled.” Then I just have to find some nature, even if it’s just looking out a window at the sky.

    2. WhoCares says:


      Thank-you for your comment and your suggestions. Yes, it is difficult, at times, to go out in public and know how to be at ease with people.

      “The way I approach it is to try being as relaxed and confident as possible without seeking direct contact with anyone in particular. I think this way, you draw as little as possible negative attention to yourself.”

      Yes, I attempt the “relaxed and confident” stance and at times I actually succeed. I’m a firm believer in “fake it til you make it” – I can project being “relaxed and confident” when necessary; even if inside I want to turn tail and run…

      Or trusting one’s instincts about how much to converse with someone or engage them; yes I do that. But I think it’s exactly that constant assessing of people and situations that I am weary of. And until I feel truly confident (i.e. without faking it) I still sort of just want to go hide in the corner out the public eye…but that still does not feel natural.

      1. WiserNow says:

        I know what you mean WhoCares. It does get weary when you’re constantly assessing people and situations everywhere you go. It feels like you’re always holding an imaginary shield of “narc-awareness” and you can’t be spontaneous and “natural”. I also feel a twinge of resentment that these “fuel-suckers” are still in “control” in a way because they’re always hunting for fuel and causing the need for us to be wary all the time.

        Sometimes I find it helps me to inwardly laugh at them or pity them in public situations. Not in a vindictive way or contemptuous way. I laugh at or pity their need for fuel. It’s like I’m seizing my power of being able to operate in the world without needing fuel, or “needing” to be empathic either.

        For instance, when I’m out shopping, I find that no matter how inconspicuous I try to be, I often get charity workers, or religious activists, or cosmetic/perfume sales-assistants come up to me specifically to try to get me to donate or support their cause, or try their products, etc.

        In the past, I would have smiled and tried to be courteous, and I’d feel guilty if I refused and said “no thanks”. Now I’m still courteous but I make mental notes to myself and I say, “yeah, I know you probably think I’m a hopeless, love-addict empath, but I know you are probably a soulless fuel sucker. Leave me alone. if I want to donate, or become a born-again whatever, or buy that perfume, I’m quite capable of deciding if and when.” And I walk away. Done. No guilt and no regrets.

        These examples are with strangers and I have no attachment to them, so it’s easier. But that attitude of stronger boundaries and not caring is what I’m adopting in other situations as well. I find it helps.

        1. WhoCares says:

          Yes, thank-you WiserNow; I think you have captured it exactly,

          ” I also feel a twinge of resentment that these “fuel-suckers” are still in “control” in a way because they’re always hunting for fuel and causing the need for us to be wary all the time.”

          I do feel resentment. I was already very self-conscious and somewhat of wary of people (especially those appearing as users or opportunists) but this awareness adds an extra dimension to it. While I’m happy to have this inside information (thank-you HG) – I do still feel as though narcissists get the upper hand in that I am still reacting to them and so, in a way, they are still in control – and that’s the part I’m not happy about.
          And yes, thank-you for your real life examples of how you deal with people – it does help and confirms that my experience is similar.

    3. Tam says:

      Yes, Twilight, I agree. I’m learning when the flags go up, it’s time to walk away.

  2. Getting there says:

    In response to another comment, you said that one doesn’t change empath schools or cadres. How does one get out of a school and cadre of being an empath altogether and become normal?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You cannot.

      1. Getting there says:

        Thank you, H G, for your response.

      2. WhoCares says:

        Is it possible to learn to dim ones empathic traits at will?

        Or does that just equate to the same thing as constantly having a wall or a boundary up when interacting with people? (Because I’m already good at the second one.)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          They can dim as a consequence of the treatment meted out towards an empath.

          1. WhoCares says:

            I guess they amount to the same thing then. (i.e. protective barrier vs. choosing to dim emapthic traits)
            I was asking in relation to some readers commenting that they simply don’t engage eye contact when in public spaces/crowds of people. While, dependent on the situation, I may do the same at times – I’m more likely to attempt a semi-hostile attitude that exudes a ‘just don’t mess with me right now’ stance…or I will actively seek eye contact to see if I can figure out someone right away – based on their reaction. I’m not entirely happy with eithet way of operating.

            …perhaps I’m looking for a middle ground somewhere.

      3. Getting there says:

        Thank you, WhoCares, for those follow up questions/comments. It was a disappointment to see HG’s response about not being able to stop being an empath and to become normal. I agree. It would be nice if there is a way people didn’t need a wall or be on guard; while also knowing (and experiencing) that they can be themselves fully without getting caught into these experiences again in a natural way. The middle ground….

        1. WhoCares says:

          Getting there – yes, I appreciate your sentiment expressed in wondering if an empath can just become ‘normal’ and the disappointment with HG’s answer.
          I guess, we can always endeavor to be less “shiny” and therefore attract fewer narcissists…even that, however, is not satisfying to me.

          I don’t care to live my life, from here on in, trying to shine less…That doesn’t feel natural either.
          This is where education is key; and HG’s work gives us an edge.

      4. Caroline-divine says:

        HG~And I say, “Well, thank God for that!” 🙂

        I LOVE being an empath. I would not change it for the world! And whatever empath I am, I’m so very happy with it. As my narcissist has often (rather fondly, I do think) said to me: “Ok, but now you’re just entertaining *yourself*.”

        Well, yeah… who else is gonna do it?

        Are you out of our homeland now, HG? I’m tired of hiding the children.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha, yes I am away from the US been home and away again now.

          1. Caroline says:

            Ok, HG. I will let the children know… there was a rumor going around that you fly around like a bat during the day. It scared them!

            There the darlings go now~~off to play baseball, hopscotch and swim.

            Much better. 😉

      5. OnnaBugeisha says:

        HG, saying that we cannot change from empath to normal sounds so definitely uh definite. I suppose it is in a way. I am in hope that healing, healing the child that learned not to love oneself, because when a parent does not love a child as it should, then the child loves the parent still but loses love and value for itself. In us empaths, my theory, what comes into play is the mirroring that narcissistic sociopaths do goes directly and unknowingly to us deep into this lack of self-love, providing us the self-love through the narcissist, the mirror, us, we are loving us, the replacement, the mirror image. None of this is done on a conscious level by the empaths, those empaths who have suffered childhood abuse and/or neglect. By learning to heal ourselves, child to adult, knowing self-love, etc., we can change, though I am uncertain, at this juncture, if this healing would ever make us “normals.” It would change the empath who is considered broken or attracted to narcissistic sociopaths. Thoughts, HG. Or, am I not making any sense at all? This is something that has occurred to me about the mirroring and how it plays out with some of us.

    2. Getting there says:

      WhoCares, I completely understand and am sorry that you, too, are trying to find that balance of following Shakespeare’s “To thine own self be true…” while protecting yourself. I agree that education is key and we are getting a lot from HG. So thankful for this site…
      It stinks when you can’t trust yourself or another with you. There are positives for being an empath and, with the knowledge we are gaining, maybe there is a greater purpose for that side of us – regardless of what narcissists and others who use it to their advantage/our disadvantage tries.
      With knowledge comes strength, as you were saying. You show in your comments that you have a lot of self knowledge as well, which is great!

      1. WhoCares says:

        Getting there – thank-you for your observations.
        And agreed: I’m most thankful for this site.

    3. K says:

      I tried to be normal; it didn’t work.

      1. K says:

        I have reread this article and I don’t think I am a Contagion after all. Since I am heavy on the narc traits, I am confident that my school is Super Empath, layered with the cadres DEMB and Carrier, of course, there is always the possibility of an antihero school (I am being puckish).

        In order to ascertain if my assessment is correct, do I need a consult or am I on the money?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          A consult is the way forward K.

          1. K says:

            Okey-dokey, HG.

      2. WhoCares says:

        Please K, don’t try to be normal.
        You’re way above average.
        I, for one, like you that way.

        1. K says:

          Thanks you, WhoCares!
          Your comment made me laugh. I have been called many things and above average wasn’t one of them, but I am happy you think so. You are the second blogger to make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside today!

          1. WhoCares says:

            Well, we’re even then K!

            I have never been called cheeky…I didn’t even even know I could be cheeky…you made me smile that day.

          2. K says:

            Of course you are cheeky! You are an empath after all.

          3. E. B. says:

            Hello K,

            I share WhoCares’ opinion that you are above average.
            Normals can be worse than narcissists. Many of them are recruited to act on the narcissist’s behalf. They enjoy doing the dirty work.
            If it helps, try to think what kind of people were those who called you negative things. They might be hypocrites who project their own character defects and insecurities onto others.
            IMO, trying to heal our inner wounds to avoid getting hurt and learning to have strong boundaries is a better path.

          4. K says:

            Thank you, E.B.!
            There really is a difference between apaths and empaths and I am noticing it more. I think most empaths are leagues ahead in the ability to communicate feelings effectively. There is a quid pro quo that comes naturally to empaths.

            You are right, many normals are recruited by narcs to carry out their dirty work and some of my normals seem like they would be so easy to manipulate.

            I spent most of my life with narcissists and they were very critical and quick to jump on any thought, idea or project that I was doing and rip it apart, then they would proudly present their idea (superior to mine, of course) which was, sometimes, half-assed or faulty. Most of the time, it was easier and safer for me to do nothing and just disappear.

            Honestly, NC is the best thing in the world. It gives you perspective and allows you to set boundaries so you can heal.

      3. Twilight says:


        Your are perfect just being you, Super Empath fits you….yet I am still working through how I see empaths and how HG has categorized us.
        A Contangon can tap into narcissistic traits if pushed to far, I whole heartedly thought my ex changed me, it took a while for me to feel like myself again.

        1. K says:

          Thank you,Twilight!
          It is “warm and fuzzy” day on narcsite for me today, I can’t recall being told that I am perfect just being me.

          After rereading SCE, I think Super fits better. The empath categories are quite fascinating and I am trying to focus more on them, too, and I think all empaths can tap their narc traits when pushed; it is instinct. Like you, my ex changed me and I can’t get back to my normal. My narc traits keep coming to the fore but I think time will help with that.

          1. Twilight says:

            Your Welcome K

            You are, don’t fret about not feeling just like you yet, it will come in time. This didn’t build up in one day.

          2. windstorm says:

            If you’re like me, your “normal” keeps changing as you grow in experience and wisdom. No doubt your narc experiences have changed you, but that old K is gone. You can never be her again. But if you really think about it, I doubt you’d really want to be.

            You’ve got to focus on who you are today and move forward from there. I’ve been reading your reactions today to people’s comments about how smart, helpful, compassionate and intuitive you are (I’d add in analytical and organized). You seem surprised and mention that you hadn’t been complemented those ways before.

            People are just saying what’s obvious to us all. It only surprises you because your self concept hasn’t caught up to the reality of the awesome woman you are today. Don’t look back and long for anything in the past. Just use your past as a measure for how far you have come as you keep moving forward.

            Enjoy your warm, fuzzy day. But remember you will still be that same awesome K tomorrow and the day after, whether anyone mentions it or not. That is your normal. ❤️

          3. K says:

            Awww… thank you, WS! (Christ, now I am getting all teary-eyed)
            It’s getting warmer and fuzzier here as the day goes on! Narcsite is where all the cool empaths are!

            Our “normal” will always be fluid because we have insight and the ability to change, learn and grow. I don’t think it is possible to be the Old-Gullible-Tart K ever again and, truthfully, I am a bit surprised when people say/write nice things about me, especially without expletives. If you think about it, we both spent most of our lives with narcissists and they aren’t the most complimentary people around, unless they are deploying false flattery to get positive fuel or residual benefits. They only give to receive.

            It isn’t always easy, but I try to look at the past objectively, learn from it and move forward; we both know that it is pointless crying over spilled milk.

            Thanks again, WS, and I will enjoy the rest of my warm and fuzzy day as my usual “normal” awesome-self!

          4. SMH says:

            I second everything said here, K :-). Tonight I went to a rock concert with a bunch of friends and friends of friends, and was totally relaxed and normal!!! I am happy sweaty, dancing, surrounded by expats from the tropics, singing in my second language. Narc was intimidated by that language, he never listened to music, and I cannot imagine him dancing. My normal. Not his normal. So he had to try to put me in a corner (or on a shelf :-)). Gullible tart is great! You are trusting and open. I am that way too and I’d never been wrong until narc came along. It isn’t you. It is him (or them). Your normal will return and you shouldn’t doubt yourself because it means being comfortable in your own skin. That’s where the joy in life comes from.

          5. K says:

            Thank you, SMH!
            I am very happy to read that you were out singing and dancing with friends and friends of friends; feeling relaxed, sweaty and normal. Their normal (world) is not our normal (world) and that is why he put you in a corner (shelf). It is all about the control. We were never wrong, not even once and my normal will come back and then the joy will follow!

            When you get a chance check out Dolus Malus, things are heating up!

          6. SMH says:

            LOL K, you don’t sound convinced that your normal will come back and with it the joy. It will come back. You might have bent but you won’t break. Is a punishment in the works?

          7. K says:

            Ha ha ha…I am working on hate and anger management and I am trying to squelch the urge for Revenge…it is a work in progress.

          8. Narc Angel says:

            I second Windstorms lovely sentiments about you (thank you for articulating that Windstorm-you are a gem yourself), but I also enjoyed the humorous antics and words of mad pissed off K when she arrived and the impish K that appears from time to time, along with helpful librarian K. You really are the whole package lol.

          9. K says:

            Thank you, Narc Angel!
            God, when I first got here I was so confused and broken hearted…and then pissed beyond words! I wanted people dead…I still do but I am working on that. Imp K is always there hiding in the shadows along with mad K, of course, but librarian K is out of the closet trying to be helpful. Honestly NA, I can’t think of a better place to be, than here with you and everyone else. Besides, all the cool and funny people are on narcsite. Thanks again.

          10. Clarece says:

            Both of you Ladies, WS and K, so genuine, authentic, supportive and straight shooters. Plus loyal. Look how long you’ve stayed on here. We all see that! ❤

          11. K says:

            Thank you, Clarece!

        2. Tam says:

          I love this! ” I tried being normal and it just didn’t work, ”
          Thank you for this! I’ve been doing my best to be ” normal” .
          Yesterday I met my myself for the first time in a long time.
          I realize I’ve been trying to fit a square into a circle.
          Meanwhile I’m just going to have my coffee and read, read, and read@

          1. K says:

            Keep reading Tam. I am a square, too, and no matter how hard we try, we will never, ever fit into a circle. So, our “normal” is just fine.

          2. windstorm says:

            I certainly agree that how we are is just fine, but never say never! Your square peg and round hole analogy reminded me of a puzzle box my father made when I was a child (his hobby was creating unique things out of wood). It was a small box with a square hole and a round peg. He got a lot of amusement from showing that to everyone and asking them to fit the peg in the hole so that it fit snugly in the hole with no empty space around it.

            Adults declared it impossible and few figured it out, while children would quickly solve it. You just had to turn the round peg on it’s side and it would fill the hole perfectly. He used this as a lesson that children look at the world with a mind open to all possibilities, but as adults we let our previous experiences limit our thinking.

            So many of the limitations and constraints we see in our own lives are really just illusions created by our own perceptions. Or – to put it more simply – we can fit in any shape hole we want! 😊

          3. K says:

            Since coming here, I have a better understanding of illusions, masks and perceptions and I think you are right; we can change, morph or fit any shape we want.

          4. SMH says:

            Nope, nope, nope. We are not narcs.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            I know your Mother was a narcsissist but wasnt your Father also?
            If yes, then that is a good example of interaction with a narc where they can contribute to our learning while appealing to their superiority. For instance developing a course/program to challenge traditional thinking (even though he may think it childs play and all participants beneath him lol) and what I mean when I say that we can gain from them aside from intimate relationships. I see that as a win for both sides if you are unable to escape them (work/family situations mostly).

          6. windstorm says:

            Yes, NarcAngel. Daddy was a narc. He was one of the outgoing, always had to be the center of attention, stereotypical narcs. He had a great sense of humor and was always telling jokes and stories with unexpected endings. He was mainly cerebral and just over the line into greater.

            He was a terrific teacher and always questioning and observing. He was a big believer in acquiring knowledge just for its own sake and was one of the very few who didn’t criticize me for majoring in foreign languages in college instead of something I could make money with.

            Yes, he made many puzzles and things to trick people, often educating them, confusing them or astounding them and lapping up their fuel. He had incredible insights into human nature and would often grill me on what I had learned thru observing people’s reactions.

            My favorite as a child was he had welded 8 inch metal stakes onto one side of various coins, then pushed them into the dirt beside the walkway into the front door, but visible from a window. Whenever anyone came to the house, we would watch to see if they tried to pick the coins up and how they would react.

            I found it both highly entertaining and interesting to watch. Some people would try to pick up every single coin, even after the first several proved impossible! Occasionally someone would even pry the stakes out of the ground and try to knock the coins off. If they didn’t see the coins coming in, he would walk them out to their cars when they left and then exclaim, “What’s that on the ground?” 😝😝😝

          7. SMH says:

            That’s very funny, WS.

          8. SMH says:

            Love that puzzle box thing, Windstorm. I would be one of those dolts unable to figure it out. I would keep banging that round peg trying to make it fit into the square hole. But I wouldn’t feel comfortable on my side either. Eventually, I’d have to stand up and be the round peg that I am. I don’t think I can fit for very long into just any hole.

            Further thoughts: who we are is made up of many facets from a lifetime of experiences and predispositions. It isn’t all childhood stuff. For instance, my son’s temperament (much different to mine but very much like his father’s) was there from the day he was born. Each phase of his development would reveal something new, but the temperament never changed, maybe because his father and I both responded to it appropriately (good parenting). So yes, childhood. But he also developed lots of other traits as a matter of growth and experience, those traits shaped in part by his temperament and how he processed and reacted to things. His self is integrated.

            ‘Normal’ people (used broadly) have an integrated self. Narcs do not. We norms can change but we cannot stay changed because all of the facets that we are – say think of a tree trunk with its branches just so – work together as a system. We can change temporarily but it puts huge strain on the tree, which will eventually break if we do not let it go back to its normal shape.

            The stress we feel is from trying to be a different tree but without being aware of all of our branches and roots. Shape shifting puts a strain on the integration of those branches and roots with our core.

            I don’t want to be anyone but who I have been. I like myself! Part of me is angry at me for being ‘duped’ by narc but I would much rather be the Gullible Tart with a core than the shark without one. In fact, when I realize someone has no core (happens rarely because I do not tend to get close to those types), I recoil. Happened with narc at the very end. I went stiff when he hugged me after I had just said he had a personality disorder. Who tries to hug someone who just told them they have a personality disorder? That right there shows that he has no core self.

          9. windstorm says:

            I dare say you’re right. I personally don’t have much experience with normal people and no one who knows me would ever mistake me for one! But like you, I have no desire to be anyone, but who I am.

          10. SMH says:

            Of course narcs don’t really change either, WS. But because they have so many selves and no core, they appear to be different depending on the situation. They dissemble. That is where the deception comes in. My next visit to the therapist will be all about this fragmentation (she brought it up after asking me about his many self-presentations). I told her I had found this site, and she got very serious and technical. Maybe she does know about such personalities but did not realize until now what I was dealing with. She thought it was a ‘split-self’ affair. Now she realizes it was an affair with a split-self!!

  3. ava101 says:

    What is the background of repeating “I just stated the truth”, when someone like a narc behaves all horrible, but justifies it with “it is just the truth, it is just how it is, I am not lying to you”, etc. ?
    How to react to it? It is such a killer argument, how to deal with it? And what to think when it really does seem to be the truth – but not taking into account the other person’s feelings or opinion??
    How can one counter that statement?

    Thoughts by other empaths on this are also welcome. 😉

    1. E. B. says:

      Hi Ava,

      My family of origin used to tell me similar things. My answer was “This is your opinion(, not mine.)”
      If they replied that other people, or even worse, *everybody* thinks the same, I used to tell them that they were entitled to their own opinion but I had a different one.

      I do not know if this was the right answer. They wanted to put me down but when they heard that particular answer, they got annoyed instead. They also felt frustrated they could not control me.

      Re: “And what to think when it really does seem to be the truth. ”

      It may be the truth for one person or for a group of people but not for everybody. Narcissistic people have an all-or-nothing way of thinking and there are so many of them that they want you to believe there is one *truth*.
      I think there are opinions and perceptions but not truths. I have learnt that there are many other people in this world who think differently.

  4. Indy says:

    Hi HG,
    When I had a consultation with you, you identified me as a savior super empath. Based on your system, do people grow and change over time in the presentation of their “type”? Will I always be a SSE? Was I always one? Or is it possible that some people change over time in the types of empath (magnet, geyser, savior, etc, etc?)

    For example, I know now I cannot save or change anyone but myself and my behaviors and responses. I certainly can be a teacher or a role model but not a “changer” of others. Does this dim my savior qualities? I still get upset by injustice and it riles me. My moral compass is often firm and I still have to remind myself to step back and take a few before I react to what I think is a violation to it. I don’t know, it seems it is possible that we change in our presentation over time when we learn life lessons about what works and what hurts (ourselves and others).

    What do you think?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You do not change school or cadre, but the traits within those can sometimes dim or grow stronger dependent on other events.

  5. DoForLuv says:

    Do some off the online confessions , help you observe a few of these” traits “

  6. T says:

    I was fighting with myself today to not look for his number and call him. I’ve been thinking of him so strongly the past few days.even fantasizing that he might be looking fo me because he really does love me.
    How fucking sick my thinking is.
    Fuck, HG in so glad you’re here to always set me straight.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. Penelope says:

      T, you’re not alone. I’ve been thinking about my ex strongly also. It started out by purposely listening to music he introduced me to. I have to throw the CD away tomorrow!

      I keep finding little things I’ve hung onto becuz they are expensive BUT I always think of him when I see these things around the house. I must get rid of all traces of him as best I can. It’s been a slow process. I changed my perfume because he loved it. I’ve given away expensive dresses I wore to events with him.

      My attachments are keeping me stuck and triggering my emotional, compulsive desires for him. Plus I’m horny.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        You made me laugh twice. The first by saying you would throw away the CD tomorrow (is there some special ritual involved lol), and the second was your last line, so thanks for the chuckle.

        It sounds like the cost to your progress overrides any expense the item may have cost in actual dollars (and it wasnt your money anyway) so you know what you must do. Maybe you could get rid of them the day after tomorrow lol.

      2. T says:

        Hi Penelope! Wasn’t sure if my last comment went through, but yes please, get rid of everything. I kept nothing. The memories are bad enough! And girlfriend, on the horny thing, I’m so happy I’m on antidepressant medication to curb those feelings, and thank God!!! But I still miss being held and loved on. It all feels so sad, horny or not, lol!!!

    3. SMH says:

      T, You are not alone. This happens to me in NC, which is the case now. The past 24 hours have been really hard. I do not know what triggered it except that I was really busy for months and suddenly have time on my hands, so he enters my mind. It seems so real that I assume he is thinking about me or creeping me online, so I ‘feel’ him. Each time this has happened before, I have gone ahead and broken NC – once after 6 months (it has only been 2.5 this time). Then of course he is thrilled to hear from me, the whole thing starts again, and ends the same way! It’s like he is lying in wait for me to break NC and sometimes encourages it by leaving little clues here and there online. I hope being here keeps me from making that mistake again…

      1. T says:

        My narc had been trying to break into my phone. Again.
        It never ends.

  7. Windstorm says:


  8. windstorm says:

    These articles are so helpful in understanding ourselves, HG. Thank you for them and I continue to wait in anticipation for an article dedicated to contagions.

    I am not a Saviour, but you are spot on that we contagions help out when we feel the overbalance of negative energy in our environment. And I, at least, do it for my own self more than for whoever I am helping, because the negativity is making me miserable. Sometimes it is unbearable.

    In such situations I do always ask the person first if they would like my help – and sometimes they say, “No.” In which case I back away and try to distance myself from the situation and it’s painful energy. One more reason I live alone in the woods. Lol!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  9. /iroll says:

    Killer empath

  10. /iroll says:

    Not me, i think some people are total garbage

  11. Jess says:

    I don’t have a saviour bone in my body.

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