The Lesser Narcissist’s Response To Your No Contact Regime (At The Start and During)


No Contact is the holy grail of escaping from the grip of our kind. It is the of course, for numerous reasons, both on your side and ours, it is not always possible to achieve it. Nevertheless, because No Contact amounts to ignoring our kind, it remains the most powerful tool in the victim’s armoury. You are always advised to implement it and keep it in place when you have ascertained that you are dealing with one of our kind. Not only does it provide you with a period of respite after a tumultuous period of time, so that you can recuperate and gather some much needed strength, it also reduces drastically our effect on you because we operate so much based on our interaction with you. Although we may derive Thought Fuel from knowing how you will react to many of our manipulations that will only sustain us for a period of time until it then begins to fade. If we continue to apply the same manipulation in expectation of a response but there is none forthcoming which we can witness, then the envisioned reaction loses its potency and moves from Thought Fuel to a criticism of us because we are being ignored. Thus if you have escaped out clutches and we send you a series of text messages, at first we envision that you will be upset to receive them and this provides us with Thought Fuel. If there is no response however, this Thought Fuel fades in its potency and we are left feeling ignored after a period of time and this then amounts to a criticism and ignites our fury. This is why No Contact is so important to you and so infuriating to us.

How then do our kind feel when No Contact has been implemented? Let us begin with the Lesser Narcissist. If you tell the Lesser Narcissist that the Formal Relationship has ended and do so in person, you have just ignited the blue touch paper. His instinctive reaction is one of huge criticism at this rejection. He will barely feel the rejection however as the ignition of his fury will be almost immediate. A massive eruption of heated fury will occur and you are in physical danger. He will not beg for you to stay; he will not plead with you. Such thoughts do not present themselves to him because the proverbial red mist has descended. Rage is coursing through him, furious and visceral rage which obliterates any rational thinking. He has lost control and he will direct this heated fury at you. He will physically prevent your departure as he locks doors, removes keys, bolts gates, closes windows and so forth. Expect the tyres on your car to be slashed or the windscreen put through as he continues to pace back and forth, cursing and hurling all manner of insults at you There is a complete loss of control. He may very well attack you, blind fury causing a flurry of punches and kicks in your direction. If there is a weapon to hand it will be used. His instinctive response is one he has not control over and it is done to achieve one thing and one thing alone; to cause you pain. He has no time to make your frustrated or angry. He cannot wait (although he does not know this) for the tears to flow (although they will). He need fuel because this massive rage that has been caused through the horrendous wound you have generated from you telling him it is over and you are leaving is draining him and draining him fast. The huge wound you have created needs to be healed and the ignited fury is using his fuel up and doing so quickly. He needs an emotional reaction from you. It must be straight away. Thus he lashes out at your verbally and physically to generate a pained response by you, accompanied by fear and then upset. This will give him the instant hit of fuel. This will begin to repair the wound. He will not allow you to get away from him for two reasons. The first is that subconsciously he needs you there to provide the fuel which he needs. Secondly, allowing you to go would more or less finish him, since it would be a further criticism. This departure criticism wounds on two fronts. First, the very fact you are going (having said that you were) opens up another criticism by telling him he is not good enough. Secondly, the fact he has not been able to stop you, destroys his sense of power and control. The first criticism of telling him it is over if allowed to combined with the double-edged criticism of departure will bring him to the brink of collapse. Thus his instinctive reaction is both to stop your departure and to draw fuel from you. If he injures you, this will most likely prevent your departure. He will keep attacking you until the rage subsides. This will happen when the wound has been healed by the fuel you provide.

If you cannot escape but (somehow) provide no fuel when assaulted (physically and verbally) your criticism of telling him, you will go will continue to wound him. He has no choice but to keep attacking you in order to provoke a reaction. It is a knee jerk response and extremely unlikely as it is, if you failed to provide fuel, this continued assault would most likely result in you being killed. Of course nearly everybody subjected to this would respond in pain and fear, thus the fuel is provided. Significant (and potentially life threatening) harm will already have happened. Once the rage subsides, you will be left in a crumpled heap, possibly unconscious as finally the rage leaves him.

Telling a Lesser Narcissist that the Formal Relationship is over and doing so face to face is an extremely dangerous step.

What of the situation whereby you leave a letter, send a message or just do nothing and allow him to work out that it is over? Once realisation has dawned on him that you have departed, the fury is ignited once again. There is the first criticism and he is severely wounded. The second criticism has not yet happened however. That double-edged criticism has not occurred. This is because although you have left he was not given the chance at the point of knowing it was over to try to stop you. Thus, his fury is ignited but he is not overwhelmed (yet) by the wound. With fury ignited, the Lesser will fly into a rage and lash out at those around him in an immediate knee jerk response to draw fuel in order to address the wound. Straight away his only thought is to find you. If he does and is able to face you face to face, then scenario will pan out as above. He will smash things up in order to reach you, break down doors, assault people to get past them and once he has you face to face you will be ordered to return home. If you do not, you will be forcibly taken back, assaulted in the process. It is akin to a caveman dragging his wife back to the cave.

If you manage to resist his attempts to drag you back, either because he cannot find you or if he can find you he cannot reach you, the failure to achieve his aim will wound him further. Anybody who is in his path – friends, family, strangers, the police – will feel the full force of his raging fury. This will continue in a bid to draw fuel from them. If fuel is provided it will not completely heal the wound (in the way fuel form you would) but rather it will provide him with enough to cause the rage to subside. He will then withdraw to lick his wounds and seek out alternative fuel. He may return, but not straight away. His follow-up hoovers will depend on entering the spheres of influence. His immediate need will be to recover from this criticism and find a new primary source whilst relying on fuel from secondary and tertiary sources.

If you resist his attempts to drag you back and he is unable to draw fuel in the immediacy from those around him – for example he is arrested and slung in his cell, or people stay out of his way- thus he is denied fuel, he will be teetering on the edge of oblivion. The rage will be extinguished as there is nothing left to power it anymore. He will feel weak and a sense of his world coming to an end. He will withdraw and enter a depressed state, hiding away from the cruel and tormenting world. He will stay in this state until such time as someone provides him with the first drops of fuel to pull him from this depressed and weakened state. Like water hitting a thirsting plant, he will respond to this fuel and then have sufficient energy to seek out more and then more, continuing his recovery until he is functioning in his usual way. At this point, he will need a new primary source (if one has not already presented itself to him) and he will apply himself to securing this (which may include hoovering you if circumstances allow). If you are not hoovered, he will seduce a different new primary source and then be occupied with that primary source. You will largely be left alone unless you enter the inner spheres of influence which will unleash a hoover.

The reaction of the Lesser Narcissist to No Contact is one of blinding, blazing fury. He lashes out left, right and centre in the immediate and pressing need for fuel. If he obtains fuel from you and secures stopping you from leaving, the rage will abate. If he cannot stop you but secures fuel, he will eventually withdraw, rage unable to be powered, but with sufficient fuel to still function and seek out a new primary source. If that fuel is denied to him he will ultimately shut down until such time as fuel is provided to awaken him again.

The Lesser’s immediate response is dangerous, violent but entirely predictable.

61 thoughts on “The Lesser Narcissist’s Response To Your No Contact Regime (At The Start and During)

  1. Lisa says:

    HG, are there Greaters that would act like a lesser the majority of the time, just because they’ve found it works for them?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Lisa says:

        Thank you. Next stop, narc detector…

        Everything I read re: the schools and their MOs implies that Narcissist the First is most definitely a lesser. I cannot seem to believe it though, because of his obvious intelligence and the fact that he seemed to often know what he was doing.

  2. WhoCares says:

    Wow HG – thank-you for explaining this to Anm – I’ve had similar texting experiences over the simplest communications (in the past when I was obligated to text the LMRN) regarding child access visits.

    “You exerted control over him when you showed independence re the arrangements to collect your child and telling him this. He was wounded also.
    His response was to exert control and provoke the provision of fuel from you.”

    It makes so much sense now.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  3. WhoCares says:

    Thank-you, nunya biz.

    “Life is strange.”

    At least it’s all beginning to make a little more sense…bit by bit.

  4. WhoCares says:


    “She feels like a prisoner and I feel like I have to keep constant tabs on her to make sure she’s ok.”

    I just read this full exchange; scary, to say the least.

    How is your daughter?

  5. WhoCares says:


    “…then he would pop out and say in a big voice, ‘Let’s go have pizza!’”

    That sounds like a wildly unpredictable childhood – it astounds me that people endure that as children and turn out as fairly balanced and commendable individuals.

    I love the visuals you crafted with that story, by the way.

  6. NarcAngel says:

    Nunya Biz
    I’m sorry if it upset you. I’m torn to mention things sometimes because I know it can be dark, upsetting, and even triggering to some people, but it is also a real consequence of dealing with these types and deserves examination. Not all entanglements are romantic or non-violent and I know there are many who I refer to as in the shadows (reading but not commenting) that have experienced these things (either as a child or as an adult with children) and stay silent because of shame, because they have been denied a voice so long that they cannot find theirs, or they don’t want to bring darkness on others. I want them to know the shame is not theirs and there are others who understand and will not turn away.

    1. nunya biz says:

      NarcAngel, I completely agree with you and I think that you are always mature, brave and appropriate in your sharing, which I admire. It’s nice for people to have someone to relate to. It’s also good to be reminded of what others on here have been through, sometimes the stories are amazing to me because I’ve not experienced those things and I like to remember that I don’t always know what other people have been through even in my real life. It is humbling, which I appreciate.
      It is also educational.

  7. Mercy says:

    Once a lesser shuts down or goes into depression is he less dangerous? When they shut down, have they given up until a new fuel source comes along?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Mercy says:

        Thank you HG. That’s good to know

  8. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: It is often difficult for people to believe that these sort of individuals exist. Even when they deal with lots of types of people. They often side with the Narcissist and not the enmeshed person. For example, Once years ago, I went out on a date with someone from an apartment complex I then lived in. I had seen him about. One day, at the mail area, he asked if we could see a movie some time together. I consented. We then went out a couple a times a week for 4 weeks. Very polite and above board. A gentleman. THEN at the end of the 4th week, he called me and said we were not working out, and that he would not be seeing me any longer. I was stunned. I was quiet for a few seconds and then I said, okay. He asked if that wall all I had to say. I said, yes. He said nothing, and so…I hung up. I cried. Not over him, per se, but for myself for not being able to understand people. ~~~~He called back a week later to talk because he said he changed his mind. I told him that everything was fine, and that I was passing on dating him, and that I wished him the best, and thanks for calling. Oh my Goodness! He started telling me that his uncle told him to break with me, and then to call me back in a week, because it would make me beg for him. He also said that his uncle told him that since I was older than he was, that he was the prize and that I should beg for him and pay for everything during the dating. I was aghast. He told me that he liked me very much and should never have listened to his uncle. I was flabbergasted and told him, that I am sorry that he had listened to his uncle, but that I would not date him, because I see that I do not understand people. ~~~~Then the stalking and harassing and threats. I informed the building management. They took his side and said he had rights as a tenant in the building and that it would be his word against mine. He kept up the threats and I called the police. A detective came and took the report, and then asked how long I knew the individual. I said 30 days. The Detective was shocked and told me he did not believe a person would act like this in only 30 days, and asked me if I were telling him the truth that there had been no physical intimacy with this person, because he could not believe all this could happen in 30 days. Sigh. I told the police that he better give me that restraining order or it was going to be all on him, whether or not he believed me. The police told me that if I broke that restraining order, it would be invalid. So every time that individual knocked on my door or called, I called the police. To the point that everyone had to finally believe me, both property management in my apartment complex and that police detective. ~~~~At end, the person was given a choice to go to jail or to leave the state. He left the state and called me only once after that. I told him I was ill and lost my job, and had a strange rash, etc etc. (all untrue). I wanted to paint an unattractive picture of me in his mind. I guess it worked. I never heard from him again. I think this person is one like you described in his post. And, I wonder if he tried a binding strategy on his own, or if he really had an uncle to advise him to “groom“ me a certain way. This post today reminded me of that unsavory experience. As you would write, HG: UNBELIEVABLE.

  9. Bibi says:

    My dad was a Lower Lesser. He used to punch holes in walls and I would hear him kicking the sink or some appliance (literally an appliance and not a person thankfully) and beat it up cursing and blaming God and Jesus. He would also be in the bathroom and I would hear him muttering hateful things in the mirror–psychopathic things and then he would pop out and say in a big voice, ‘Let’s go have pizza!’

    The stories I could tell.

  10. foolme1time says:

    NA I understand this and I’ve lived some of this! I know how hard it is at times to relive it by writing about it. Please no that I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and the person you have become. Although I do not know you personally, your strength, intelligence, and voice of logic has helped me so much over the years! I appreciate you staying on the blog and helping myself and others get through this and hopefully find peace. I see how you will put yourself in the line of Fire to protect a newcomer to the blog, so that they can have the opportunity to learn and heal. I can feel the hurt that is still inside of you as I read your comment, I am sorry for that hurt and I hope that you will have the peace you have helped so many others find. 😘💞

  11. Leolita says:

    His (the lesser’s) reaction to loss of control or challenge is almost no better…, my ex smashed a pizza slice on his plate (with his fist) with his face in an aweful frown, his eyes all black, because I stated that I for not believe him. And this was IN a restaurant. With people around. The ignition of fury is immediate, scary and leaves you out of breath. It is almost like they have Aspbergers(??)

    1. Leolita says:

      * That I did not believe him. (I hate my Norwegian spell check on my phone. Sorry for all the typos)

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Det er greit

        1. foolme1time says:

          Stop showing off! Smarty pants! 🤣🙃

          1. Bibi says:

            Google Translate is a wonderful tool. I can speak Zulu.

            Ngikhuluma isiZulu.

            And Yoruba. Mo le sọ Yoruba

            Yuk Yuk. (Untranslatable. Means Yuk Yuk.)

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Please don’t concern yourself with trying to figure out or making any distinction in what he has. Whatever it is it’s dangerous and if he isn’t even hiding it now, it will get worse. GOSO (get out and stay out).

  12. Mercy says:

    One of my daughters is going through a break up with a lesser. She broke it off in January and the harassment still hasn’t stopped. 100s of calls and text a day. He goes silent for a few days then shows up at her place and at her job unexpected. She calls me when she leaves her house while walking to her car then calls me again when she gets back home. She changed her number and went to the police Monday but all they can do is warn him to stay away unless he physically hurts her. She feels like a prisoner and I feel like I have to keep constant tabs on her to make sure she’s ok.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      That must be unbearable for you to have to witness and worry over as a mom. It’s smart to have her check in with you. Will they consider it as stalking or harassment if he persists now that she has reported it?

      1. Mercy says:

        NarcAngel, it hasn’t been fun. I feel like a stalker because I’m always checking her social media to make sure she’s been active. It’s better than texting her every hour “everything good?”. The police called him when she went there Monday and warned him that he’ll be arrested if he keeps harassing her. Im pretty sure it was just a scare tactic though and that she will have to do what anm said and get a order. They think with her phone records alone she has enough evidence. Things have been quite since Monday so I’m not sure what she will do. I wish I could file it for her. She is moving next month so that will help.

    2. nunya biz says:

      That sounds really scary. Should be taken seriously.

    3. Anm says:

      Do not ever take legal advice from the police. I appreciate what they do, but the reason they can not do anything, is not because your daughter hasn’t been hurt yet, it’s because there isn’t a court order in place for the police to follow. She needs a restraining order/order of protection. It doesn’t take much to get one of those to get, and it sounds like your daughter has enough. You dont need a lawyer to get one either. After she gets one, THEN CALL THE POLICE.

      1. Mercy says:

        Anm, I’m starting to see that too. This was her 4th conversation with the police. This time she went down there and basically said “Please!, I need help or advice”. This officers was more helpful and actually called him and gave a warning. He also advised her to get a no contact order.

        1. nunya biz says:

          I don’t want to say scary things, but this freaks me out if he is a lesser.

          1. Mercy says:

            Me too nunya biz

        2. Anm says:

          so what you need to do now, is call the records department for the police department. The officer who told your daughter to get a co contact order should have made a report on it. Ask the records department for the report, and bring along any text messages, pictures, anything your daughter has against her ex boyfriend, and you bring it to the nearest courthouse. If you live in the United States, the judge will grant you an Ex Parte hearing that will last about 15 min. That’s where you show any evidence you have to the judge. You need to have everything printed out, and judge isn’t going to want to look through phones or laptops, etc. The judge will then usually grant you some type of order. Here in the USA judges give them out like candy. The standard for the judge, is he is looking for a potential of violence in the future, you do not need strong evidence of violence in the past. Your daughters ex then has 2 weeks to object the terms of the order, but a whole year to ask for a hearing to drop the order altogether. Judges are very reluctant to drop these types of orders, because someone’s safety is at stake. So if your daughter is worried it wont be held up, you must assure her that she will be ok. Do not ever allow your daughter to drop this order. Any time her ex goes against this order, then you call the police. He will be looking at sanctions or jail time.

          1. Mercy says:

            Anm, thank you. She hasn’t heard anything from him since Monday but i have a feeling it’s not over. I will tell her what you said. Unfortunately since it’s been quite she’s starting to feel secure again. She thinks if she files anything it’ll start back up again.

      2. nunya biz says:

        So glad you are saying that, Anm.

  13. Anm says:

    HG, here is something I can’t wrap my mind around Lessers. Please shed light on this. When my ex, who is an Upper Lesser has high fuel levels, he has this sort of smoothness to him. He’s quick witted, and confident. When fuel levels are low, or he loses control of a situation, he will either rage, throw tantrums, even act dillusional. Sometimes, when I can sense his fuel levels are dropping, he does this stupid thing, where he will lose the translation in a conversation to the point where it is nothing close to what was said. Example:
    My daughter is attending a new preschool, my car was in the shop, so I sent my father to pick her up. I sent the narc a text ‘car in shop. Won’t pick up our daughter, I will send someone else. I have support.’
    He then sends 20 text messages asking why I thought it was appropriate to bring up child support at that time. I waited a few hours to respond, because I didn’t know if I was getting baited into a word salad freak fest.
    Then later on in the evening, he text me from no where stating he heard a rumor about me. The rumor was bizarre, and then I realized it was two stories about me, that he somehow blended into one incident.
    When this happens, I question if it is a cognitive issue, or if he is seeking challenge fuel. I hope you know what I am talking about.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You exerted control over him when you showed independence re the arrangements to collect your child and telling him this. He was wounded also.
      His response was to exert control and provoke the provision of fuel from you. If you wish to understand this in greater detail, a consultation is the appropriate forum.

  14. Claudia says:

    Crap!!!! He threatened me, then said good bye. I said good bye also and I meant it….no contact from now on. It’s too scary. That was 2 days ago and I haven’t heard anything. We don’t live together, thank God. I’m hoping it’s over. I’m hoping he has a great new primary source, but right now I don’t know. Should I be scared?

  15. Carol Emmett says:

    Hi HG, do you have any essays on what happens to a Narcissist when he is suddenly fired from a very successful job?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No. The effect will either wound or be Challenge Fuel and of course a response will follow from the narcissist.

  16. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: What is “blue touch paper.“

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is what is used to light a firework. Thus, if you light it, it means there will shortly be an explosion.

      1. Dearest HG: Thank you. I haven’t heard that expression in the States, but I like it. The closest I’ve heard is to do something to “set someone off,“ or to cause someone “to blow a fuse.“ But, these 2 phrases do not have the same feel and rhythm and charm, as that one. 🙂

  17. NarcAngel says:

    Painfully accurate. I have a physical reaction and a picture reel like a camera on fast shutter speed when I read this one. When I begged my mother to leave she would say terrified: you don’t understand. He’ll kill us. My response to her (as a child) was: he might anyway, and I’d rather die trying. Part of me died because she stayed. If anyone is engaged with one of these animals please consult with HG and formulate a plan to get out. Please.

    1. Sarah says:

      NA you speak of experiences I cannot even begin to imagine. I am so sorry your mum was unable to harness a plan to save you this abuse.

      I believe that every relationship nurtures a strength or a weakness within us. Your experiences have done both. You are still connected enough to care (we have all seen that), strong enough to handle it and smart enough to walk away. Standing beside people who hurt you everyday, must’ve been a horrific experience for a growing mind.

      May speaking your truth and showing courage resonate for someone who really needs it tonight. Someone who owes it to themselves and their children.

      Beautifully said.

      If you don’t mind, may I ask the magic question? If your mum had heeded your pleading and left the relationship with your father what would be different for you today?

      1. NarcAngel says:


        Thank you. Hard to say as I don’t feel I ever had the luxury of focus on myself back then to know what I would want to do, or be, if I was not embedded in mayhem. A few things that come to mind quickly:

        The horror/violence reel would be much shorter.
        There may be fewer victims. He was my Stepfather and she had 2 children with him subsequent. My youngest brother is a narcissist and his clone.
        I might have been able to have some sense of family or be able to relate as a sibling and a daughter rather than be relegated to problem solver.
        My sex life may be different.
        I may be less vigilant
        I may have had children. Although I can’t really know that.
        I may have been able to experience love or to give it.
        I may have been able to respect my mother.

        I’ll stop there as you can see the list of effects can become lengthy quite quickly.

        Children are trapped and the damage over a sustained period is irreparable and inexcusable.

        1. nunya biz says:

          Really moving, NA.

        2. Bibi says:

          I note some similarities with me, NA. I experienced a lot of shame when it came to becoming more ‘womanly’ because my dad was such a misogynist.

          He never liked when I would say the words, ‘I know.’

          ‘Don’t say I know,’ he would say. So I wonder if that led to me having a lack of confidence when it came to knowledge, where I feel like I need to know EVERYTHING on a subject before I can speak about it. Or just a lack of assertiveness.

          He would always tell me I was so emotional, like he really had no idea how to handle emotions.

          He had no writing ability–could barely even put words in a sentence but then an innate savant type ability when it came to mechanical things and fixing them.

          But he really messed me up in life. Confidence is still something I work on.

        3. Sarah says:

          NA, powerful words. I see the affliction of narcissism has cost you greatly – one could even say reading your words it has cost you a part of yourself (the part that could enjoy some of the basic freedoms we have in life). I am humbled by your experiences and so sorry you have endured this.

          Most people struggle with how they feel about themselves at times. I imagine you have not been immune to this after what you have shared? In spite of the abuse and your mother’s failures to nurture and protect you, I see here how your own intentions are admirably pure – you are indeed the bigger person in dealing with all of this.

          Through sharing stories on this blog I have learned that pain is inevitable when dealing with a narcissist. However by focusing on what we are feeling and why we are feeling it through our education around the narcissistic perspective we can overcome it. Your contributions have always been of great assistance to my learning NA. Thank you.

          Are you still in contact with your younger brother? What has his trajectory been like?

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Hi Sarah
            Sorry, I missed this comment. I have very limited contact with all of my family members even though 3 of them live very close to me (one lives on the other side of the country but is not a narcissist). My younger brother is a somatic Lesser narcissist and a clone of his father. It is like looking at and listening to StepNarc and hard to be around, but then another side of me remembers holding and caring for him as a baby (so much so that he may as well have been my own. I saw him at Christmas just after he cruelly dumped his long time IPPS and he is now in a golden period with a new victim. Sickening to watch. The cycle continues.

        4. pavotdeschamps says:

          NA, I cried when I read this. I have shielded my daughter from what I recognized as a troublesome pattern in my relationships with men. I didn’t know about NPD then. I just did not want to take any chances bringing her up in that maelstrom of emotions, hurt and possibly violence. So I remained single for 20 years. Now that she is old enough, I’ve decided to open myself to the possibility of dating again. I had not started looking, that a UMRN from work had already made a move on me. I thought I was really unlucky, but I understand that I have been imprinted in my youth, so that makes some sense… I
          However, I have not earned my daughter’s respect. To her, all I am is defective. I guess she is not an empath like me, but a normal. Thank you for sharing this NA, it gives me some validation for my efforts with my daughter.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            You shielded your daughter but then say you have not earned your daughters respect and you believe she thinks you defective? I don’t understand.

    2. Claire says:

      It’s hard for me to read this post NA. For personal reasons I would typically mention but I just can’t today. I’m very very touched to read this.

    3. Mercy says:

      NarcAngel, I’m sorry you went through this. No child should have to live in fear. When you say that part of you died because she stayed I can understand. The innocence of a child dies when they are subject to abuse. It’s heartbreaking.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Thank you Mercy.
        People in this position need an action plan and I acknowledge that is hard to formulate yourself when you are in it. The hopelessness and confusion about what to do can cause inaction. That is why I suggest they consult with HG. He has demonstrated to me (and I’m sure to many others in the shadows who do not comment) that he knows exactly how they do and will react. It is that kind of recognition and guidance you need to be able to formulate an action plan to break free. We often say here that narcs don’t change, but they can. This is an example (Lesser) where they can and do – for the worse. I want people in this position to know they are not alone and it is not hopeless. There was no one with this insight back then but there is now. I believe HG can help them.

        1. Mercy says:


          “The hopelessness and confusion and confusion about what to do can cause inaction.” This is well said! It’s not always about hope that they will change for the better. Sometimes it’s about needing help and not knowing where to turn.

    4. Lou says:

      NA, do you have a better idea of what your mother is? She seems like a woman with the emotional maturity of a 5 years old, terribly dependent, abused and scared. Was she loving or empathic to you? Difficult to speak of a person being loving and empathic when that person allows someone to abuse their own children, but I was wondering if she had loving gestures towards you.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Hi Lou
        In time I have bounced between Co-D and a narcissist herself. I will be consulting with HG about it because I think its hard to be objective about that despite all that I’ve learned. No she did not use loving gestures. I cannot recall a time when she hugged me. She did some things that appeared to be in defence of us and mother(ish) but it was never of the intensity that you’d expect from a mother. She always had an excuse (she would say reason) we couldn’t leave and we just needed to appease the beast.

        1. WhoCares says:


          “I will be consulting with HG about it because I think its hard to be objective about that despite all that I’ve learned.”

          I hope it will bring you some clarity (one way or another) NA when you do so.

          For me, I still have brief flickers of disbelief that my mother is a narcissist…until she hoovers (through a third party since I’m no contact) or until I review my last few conversations with her – and then I’m so glad that I can now see her with HG’s objectivity.

        2. Lou says:

          Thanks for your reply, NA. Yes, I know it’s very difficult to be objective when it comes to analyzing a person you have been so close to and therefore have so many details about them. It happens to me with my relatives. Sometimes I have difficulty in distinguishing the narcs from some of the Co Deps. They can have the same behavior that makes you think they are narcs, but are not after all. And now that I have learned about the MR narcissist, it gets more complicated and interesting at the same time.
          Hope you will see more clearly after your consultation with HG.

    5. nunya biz says:

      I’m sorry, NA. Your stories are so upsetting.
      My experience with a lesser in my early twenties had me in a house with locked doors and the phone removed during rages regularly. Even me driving to work was stopped sometimes, he got in front of my car or once followed me. Eventually when I lived somewhere I else I luckily had a security door and he dented it up pretty good.
      I can’t imagine having a parent like that. I woke up in the mornings feeling relieved for two years afterwards and had to teach myself to relax.

      1. WhoCares says:

        nunya biz,

        “I woke up in the mornings feeling relieved for two years afterwards and had to teach myself to relax.”

        Your story sounds upsetting as well…glad that is far behind you now ♡

        1. nunya biz says:

          Thank you WhoCares! I definitely don’t have fear daily, massive improvement. I was thinking about it and I think I ended up with someone like that because I was somewhat used to it with my mom mostly. I don’t know though. Life is strange. Your stories have been amazing to me.

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