Dealing With The Proof



Proof. The empathic individual has certain traits which mean gathering proof and exhibiting that proof to the narcissist and other parties is highly important. An empathic person is honest, decent, believes in the truth and has to have the truth known. This is not done from any sense of gloating or about showing how clever and virtuous the empathic person is. The empath operates this way because: –

  1. They want the truth to be known by third parties;
  2. They want to demonstrate that they are correct;
  3. They want to preserve their self-worth by showing the truth of the situation;
  4. They want to show other people that the narcissist is in the wrong;
  5. They want to demonstrate to the narcissist that what the narcissist has done or said is wrong. This is often done to try to help the narcissist, to heal and to fix, rather than engage in point scoring;
  6. It is done to preserve their sanity in the face of the false reality and all its manipulations which are deployed by our kind.

It often takes an empathic person a considerable amount of time to realise that merely explaining what has happened to our kind gets them absolutely nowhere. You may know precisely what has happened but if your recollection of events, no matter how accurate, does not accord with what we require, challenges us, stops us achieving our aims or worst of all constitutes a criticism, we will do anything and everything we can to distort your truth.

I use the phrase ‘your truth’ because it is always important to keep in mind that with each and every situation there is the Empathic Perspective and there is the Narcissistic Perspective. For example, you serve food for everybody and you start with the person nearest to you and this results in our kind being served last. From the Empathic Perspective, you regard this action as the most practical and the politest. From the Narcissistic Perspective, we view this as a criticism; we should have been served first. This criticism results in us being wounded, this causes the ignition of our fury and we may storm out of the dining room through our cold fury or we may fling the plate at the wall as a manifestation of heated fury, either actions occurring in order to draw fuel to heal the wound that has been created by your criticism of us.

Thus, you have the same event but two different perspectives. If you tried to explain to us that you had served people ahead of us because of practicality all you would be doing is repeating the criticism to us and igniting the fury once again. We will only have regard to our perspective and in the ensuing conversation we would engage in deflection, projection, blame-shifting, word salad and other manipulations to reject what you are asserting. From your perspective it appears innocuous, an over-reaction on our part, but from our perspective our response is completely justified.

What of a situation whereby you suspect we have been cheating with somebody else? Let us assume you have followed us and saw us pick up another woman who we embrace in our car and then head off to some secluded spot, a hotel or another location for the purposes of the tryst. You do not confront us but observe and then wait for our return that evening. You decide to remain calm and when we walk in through the door you state,

“You are cheating on me with a blonde-haired woman. I saw you pick her up this afternoon, kiss her and then I followed you to The Happy Ending Motel and saw you go in a room together.”

If you said this angrily, we would draw fuel from your reaction. We would recognize that this is an opportunity to gain more fuel from you and therefore we would look for ways to provoke you further. You are also challenging us. Whilst it does not manifest as a criticism, we still do not appreciate you trying to challenge our superiority and our entitlement to do as we please.

If you made this comment in a calm and neutral manner, you do not provide us with any fuel. You are also criticising us.

You have seen what has happened. It is not hearsay but you have witnessed our behaviour and you have told us so, providing sufficient detail to confirm its legitimacy. What might you hear in response? There are many different replies.

Denial “No I haven’t. I have been at work all afternoon.” Yes, we will be this brazen. Lies come easily to us.

Deflection. “Yes I was dropping a colleague off. She is staying there for a few days and we needed to talk about a project. You know the new plans for the development in the Old Quarter, well we are involved in that now and we need to put a proposal together in a very short time.” On we go talking about something else.

Projection. “I wasn’t doing anything wrong, not like you and that fellow, what is he called, Mike, I saw you getting close to him last week when you went for coffee.” This may or may not be true, it does not matter. It serves to draw a reaction from you and allows us to move the conversation away from what we have done.

Blame-Shift. “Who do you think you are following me? Who gives you the right to do that? There is something wrong with you. I am sick of you trying to control me.”

Blame-Shift. “So what if I am seeing somebody else, if you put out more than once in a blue moon, I wouldn’t have to go elsewhere would I? I am sick of working hard and coming in to this kind of crap.”

Disappearance – we just turn around and walk back out and disappear to some bolt hole for a few days.

Denial and Projection “I think you are mistaken, are you imagining things again? You keep doing this.”

Deflection and Gas Lighting “Oh that, nothing to worry about there, she is new to the company and I was showing her to where she is staying until her new apartment is ready. I know her from the Southern Office, so I greeted her with a kiss, that was all. Anyway, I told you I was doing this last week, don’t you remember? Yes, I told you all about it over dinner, you must have forgotten again. You seem to be doing that a lot recently.”

Verbal assault “Who do you fucking think you are? You are a miserable old cow. Creeping around watching what I am doing. Jesus, you are so fucking sad, I am sick of you. Look at the state of you.” Cue a tirade of insults which may escalate into breaking things and even attacking you.

No matter how you try to point out to us that you have seen us, you know what you saw, you know what the other woman looks like we will not hear what you are saying.

If you keep going and do so in an emotional manner, all we focus on is the fuel that we are giving you and continuing to provoke you to get more fuel.

If you do it without providing fuel, all we hear is the criticism. This wounds us and forces us to seek fuel from you (or if you continue not to provide it we will be forced to withdraw and seek fuel elsewhere).

We will not accept what you are saying, no matter how convincing you are and no matter how much detail you provide. You will be accused of making it up, reading something into nothing, taking it the wrong way, being confused, being mistaken along with all and more of the other manipulations mentioned above.

What about providing some independent evidence to us? What if you have evidence from our phone, in a document, an e-mail, a sound recording or a video? You decide to show us a video of what we did that afternoon in the hope and expectation that we must surely accept what we have done. It is there, recorded and on the screen. How will we respond?

Once again, depending on the way you have conveyed this to us, you will have either provided fuel (telling us there is more) and you have challenged us or you have criticised us. Our perspective means we need fuel, we want fuel, we need to assert our superiority, we need to maintain control, we need to keep you submissive and manipulated. Astonishing as it may seem, you can expect reactions akin to those above and these as well: –

  1. We will tell you the footage has been edited to make us look bad;
  2. We will say that the footage does not show the whole picture and is taken out of context;
  3. We will say it is somebody who looks like us but isn’t us;
  4. We will try to delete the footage;
  5. We will damage the device on which the footage is held;
  6. We will produce some different evidence which points to some imagined transgression on your part and focus on that instead;

If you have independent evidence of any kind, its production engenders the same response as detailed above because we look at it from an entirely different perspective. You can expect the independent evidence to be attacked, tampered with or destroyed along with the plethora of manipulations that have been described above.

You may think that showing our kind definitive proof of our wrongdoing would cause us to hold our hands up and admit we have been caught. It does not work with our kind in that way. We have been designed to see things in a different way so that we will respond to protect ourselves from your criticism (or to draw more fuel and head off your challenge) and that is what we see and hear – criticism and/or fuel. These devices and manipulations occur because: –

  1. We are never at fault;
  2. We are superior to you;
  3. We must be in control;
  4. We are omnipotent;
  5. You are inferior;
  6. We are entitled to do what we want;
  7. We need fuel; and
  8. We hate criticism.

Save your independent evidence for the third parties. Save your breath and your sanity.

The only thing you will ever prove is how predictable, as narcissists, we are, when are confronted with proof.

52 thoughts on “Dealing With The Proof

  1. HSM says:

    As an Empath, I thought that there was only one truth, defined as the simple coincidence with reality. But now I know that there are two kinds of truth, the natural one (said before) and the practical one.
    The practical truth is the coincidence with the people of your environment, no matter what the reality is. And at any time, a big part of your environment could have interests and behaviours far away from truth, specially when narcs are involved.

  2. foolme1time says:

    I wonder where that was? 😘💞

  3. foolme1time says:

    Lisk, 🤬Autocorrect! 🙃

  4. KellyD says:

    Each time I point out when the narc does or says something that doesn’t resonate as true or fair to me, he says, “It’s always about you”. That used to stop me for a minute and make me feel like I’m being selfish or something, but now I say, Yes it is about me because I’m involved in this relationship and it’s my belief and feeling, and it’s important to me. I know now not to be hurt or moved in any way by his assertion that it’s all about me. It’s actually pathetic that that’s his only line of defense. And he calls ME predictable? Smh. To me he’s the basic, predictable one.
    Thanks to HG and this community for making me aware.

  5. SMH says:

    I think I’m going to read Revenge now because this post made me coldly angry and my ET is low. Basically non-existent. If I can get further revenge without having any contact with him and without getting caught, I will do it.

  6. SMH says:

    This reminds me of what a cunt/dick he is, not just to me but to IPPS as well. Shudder.

  7. fauxfur5 says:

    What if we do not need to provide the proof for example if the Narc pleaded and was found guilty in a court of law? He knows I don’t need proof although I have it and could make it reaily available if need be. I have copies of his charge sheet for example which states in black and white what he was charged with and what his sentence involves.He is currently serving a 12 month community order and has to check in for therapy sessions and meet with probation officer, however i doubt anyone else knows this..Would he be concerned?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It depends on whether this impacts on his control in the instance.

  8. Sarah says:

    The proof is exactly that; already proven. It is crazy to reflect on how we have tortured ourselves trying to prove what is already known!

    1. lisk says:

      Great point, Sarah.

  9. WiserNow says:

    I think I need to read this ten times in a row to make it sink in. It’s all true.

    There were many times when I was growing up and a young adult that I had the most aggravating circular conversations with my family members when trying to explain what was absolutely clear to me that they would never acknowledge, no matter how hard I tried to explain myself or to convince them. To be treated that way by people who claim to ‘love’ you is extremely confusing and emotionally difficult.

    To this day, I would rather be alone than risk that happening with anyone else.

    1. Sandy says:

      Right. I literally became a evidence guru in documenting things in my past. It really is crazy making. Even to this day I keep all receipts. But unlike before now the first time someone does a gaslighting tactic I immediately cut them out of my life. I now have zero tolerance for bs. They are so text book it is so not worth it.

      1. WiserNow says:

        I can relate to what you’re saying. The mirroring and then gaslighting is all part of the text book behaviours. It’s quite sad when you think about it. They need to feel control and power and seem to always be on the defensive because they fear, at every turn, that they will somehow lose that.

        Yet they can’t see the reality of their lives. Just by being themselves and being “real” they would see they already have – naturally in abundance – those things they fear losing. The one thing they don’t have is belief in their own true self.

    2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear WiserNow,
      We are going thru this as we speak with our youngest’s partner from verbal abuse (resulting from intoxication) whom I believe to be a covert and I feel our youngest is codependent
      Our youngest is defending their partner
      Our conversations are meaningless

      It has been absolute chaotic mayhem this last week
      This is my safe place
      I hate people
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. WiserNow says:

        I’m very sorry to hear this Bubbles. I feel for you my lovely xx

        It’s a difficult situation. If your youngest is showing signs of being codependent, I think that it will help him/her if you keep showing that you love and support him/her. I don’t think it’s helpful to criticise the partner or argue with your youngest, because I think that only makes your youngest feel a need to defend that person or feel torn between who to believe. Also, if you criticise the partner, your youngest may feel that it’s better to hide from you any further transgressions or faults the partner does/has, in order to avoid any conflicts that may arise if you know those details.

        Your youngest needs to feel supported and loved by you, but also needs space to “see” for themselves what kind of person their partner is.

        The following sayings come to mind:
        “If you let cloudy water settle, it will become clear. If you let your upset mind settle, your course will also become clear.” (i.e. have patience dear Bubbles).
        “Stirring up a pile of manure will only increase the stink.” (arguing with your youngest will probably worsen matters).

        Bubbles, I’m not sure what the answers are, however, in my experience, chaos and mayhem are not very helpful in the moment, but after the dust settles, the ‘answers’ become clearer.

        In my reading lately, I’ve read that overall self-esteem (for your youngest) is strengthened when there is self-consistency and a clear self-concept (stability and security in how someone views themselves). Having a firm anchor as a support system and honest consistency is very helpful for this.

        Also, reading about what helps children and teenagers develop a stronger sense of self (self-concept clarity), the following factors in their environment are important: honesty, consistency, stability, social inclusion, positive evaluation (from self and others), safety, and a warm, welcoming, secure environment. It sounds to me like you already provide all those things, so I think it will all turn out ok.

        I wish you all the best with your youngest Bubbles. Everyone needs to have learning experiences in life and maybe this is one such experience for your youngest. Try not to see the worst in it and wait and see what happens. If your youngest is anything like you, they probably have a smart and emotionally intelligent head on their shoulders.
        Warm wishes to you xx

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest WiserNow,
          I am ever so humbly grateful for your most supportive advice
          Everything you have just explained is so constructive and sensible and you have so kindly gone into such detail and it has given me a good deal to take in, to read over again and reflect upon
          Our family, have been so supportive of this person, giving, helpful, we have never raised our voice, never sworn, name called or ever spoken ill of this person (we are not like that)
          We have only raised their “behavioural” issues and this person’s “unwarranted” treatment of us

          Our youngest is very much like me and was given my “curse” of being the most emotional, sensitive, caring, with a pure heart of gold, out of all the three and loved by all n sundry …. sadly, a magnet just like moi

          I will take everything you have said on board, breathe, digest it, let the dust settle and slowly get my emotional thinking back on track to refocus
          Mr Bubbles and our other two adult kids, kindly (but very sternly) reminded me about what happened when I was too nice/kind/giving to the weasel and frustratingly verbalised “STOP BEING SO NICE TO EVERYONE ….IT GETS YOU INTO BIG TROUBLE”
          My eldest son has written a list for me to read n reread of “what NOT to do” in this dilemma
          Financial assistance is being sought from me and my family have all clamped down in it ….BIG TIME !
          Just when I thought I was doing so well and it was safe to go back in the water …. just goes to show 🐋
          Sadly, I fear more learning ” Tudortorials ” are required …. laying those foundations in Rome are sure taking a bloody long time !!!!
          My thought processing about this has been reflecting on my own “abandonment” issues and I guess I’m petrified and conscious of doing that to my own (will our broken “inner child” issues ever be mended?)
          Thank you ever so dearly WiserNow … I’m truly grateful to have you and all the lovelies here as my guardian angels 👼
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome Bubbles xx
            I hope everything turns out ok with your children. Keep coming here and reading. This is my safe place too 👌

      2. K says:

        Dear Bubbles,
        Ah, so you think this individual is a covert (mid-ranger). Is the intoxication being used as a blame-shift?

        Did you listen to Sandra Brown on the WNAAD tele-summit? She explains how Empaths are often mistaken for CoDs. Very interesting.

        Disengage. Walk away from the drama.

        Ha ha ha…this is my safe place, as well, and I hate people, too! They are mid-rangers and need to be taken out.

        Luv K xoxo

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest K,
          I feel this person is a covert lesser and definitely used alcohol as a blameshift (twice in a row now with us) and one who is displaying being the typical “drama queen”
          Sadly, I didn’t listen to the WNAAD….. I don’t think any of it would’ve sunk in right now
          I can see there would be a correlation between empaths n CoD’s …. that need to belong …. I’m guessing

          Our youngest has been dropping in and keeping us updated, however, is still very much feeling the pain it’s all caused

          We are laying low as you have suggested …. thank you K
          “They are mid rangers and need to be taken out” …. haha…. I like your style K

          Thank you for caring precious one
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. K says:

            Dear Bubbles
            Just lay low. It is like watching a hurricane, stay far, far away and you may not get whacked by the Drama Queen action. It’s painful because you know what’s happening but you can’t do anything about it. It is very frustrating.

            There wasn’t enough time to listen to all the interviews in 24 hours. I think they should be free for at least a week.

            Ha ha ha…there are 7 mids-males and females-that need to be pushing up daisies.

            My pleasure and take care of yourself and Mr. Bubbles and, hopefully, everything will sort itself out.

            Luv K xoxo

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest K,
            Thank you ❤️

            Dearest WiserNow,
            Thank you ❤️

            Dearest FYC
            Thank you ❤️

            Luv you all…. can’t thank you enough 😌
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome Bubbles xx

      3. WiserNow says:

        Since sending my first reply, I’ve thought of something else that may be helpful. As you and I both know, awareness is so important and knowledge makes a huge difference to how we relate to other people and also how we see ourselves.

        I’m wondering how much awareness your youngest has about different personality types (i.e. narcissists, codependents, empaths etc)?

        It may help to discuss the topic (you may have done this already), saying that you’re thinking about his/her well-being and you want them to stay safe. You’ve probably already said these things, but I’m just thinking about how important knowledge and awareness is. It makes a huge difference.

        Somehow, without making it sound like a lecture or an accusation, perhaps point out how important respectful words and behaviours are in a relationship and how disrespect should not be tolerated by anyone, not just your youngest. Tell them you’re saying it because you care about them and you want them to be happy and safe.

        Again, all the best to you Bubbles xx

      4. WiserNow says:

        I’m sorry for my mini TED talk if you didn’t mean to ask for help as such and were just sending a passing comment!! 🙂
        I think I need to stop taking things so seriously and remember to dial down my “truth-seeker” button sometimes.
        In any case, I feel for you dear Bubbles and I hope things get better for you xx

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest WiserNow,
          Thank you, you beautiful soul
          I’m rather partial to the TED talks… haha (always learning)
          I need all the help I can get … that’s what got me here in the first place …. and ……. guess what, I’m still here … haha

          Our youngest knows very much about “narcissists” … especially from my mum n the weasel

          They just see their mum as a helper n fixer, not so much an empath
          I did chuck the CoD word around just a couple of times, along with boundaries, self worth, red flags, toxic and actually asked …. what if the shoe was on the other foot and those things were said to their parents ….stunned n deathly silence response ….no surprise there

          I will most wholeheartedly keep safety, care n concern of well being, respectful words n behaviour, opposed to disrespect… you have kindly suggested … as the main focal points

          Usually any kind of talks from the parentals are usually seen as a form of attack and siblings are always on the defence

          We are all adults after all ….. what could possibly go wrong …. 😂

          Please keep your truth seeking going WiserNow… it helps us enormously… don’t ever stop
          Thank you precious, you’ve given me more than you realise
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. WiserNow says:

            Thank you Bubbles, for your kind words and lovely message. It’s much appreciated xx

      5. FYC says:

        Hello Bubbles, I am so sorry you and your youngest are struggling with this. I hope you don’t mind an outside interjection to your discussion with WN.

        My feeling is, appealing to your youngest’s emotional challenges with your logic may create resistance, and reinforce her need to prove you wrong. To approach your desired result in this situation, you may find strategic questions interspersed during affective listening (not pointed questions, but caring questions that invite her to arrive at her own healthier conclusion) to be more effective. If she is truly CoD this may not work either, but it won’t hurt.

        When we have ample history with someone (as is the case in families), we create behavioral maps subconsciously and apply these maps to any interaction in anticipation of what will occur. Predictive modeling (PM) causes problems in communication and relationships. Instead of actively listening, we jump to the conclusion our PM provides, even when not accurate. Further, it interferes with genuine communication. PM is in play prior to any interaction.

        To circumvent the effects of PM (to the degree that is possible) you will need to employ new approaches. Questions and active listening are often such tools.

        When the stakes are high, it is very difficult not to speak your mind directly, yet if this engages the person’s PM it falls mostly on deaf ears. Since the outcome is what you care about, see if the above tools work more effectively.

        Being with someone who partakes in substance abuse and abuses their partner verbally or physically will not improve with any amount of love (as I’m sure you know). CoD behavior does not assist either a substance abuser or a N. Leaving a partner that is a substance abuser (and emotional abuser) is not betrayal or lack of love—it is actually supporting love of self and other. CoD behavior only further injures the self esteem/worth of the CoD and the other. For more on CoD healing you may find the works of Darlene Lancer helpful.

        I hope your youngest knows they deserve a healthy, supportive relationship. By honoring their own values (including not accepting bad behavior), they will naturally find a healthier partner.

        Disclaimer: I do not have children, so I have not been in your position. My desire is to assist, but your youngest’s situation is complex and this minor adjustment is not likely to result in change of position. What may result is a more open communication channel.

        Lastly, substance abuse is not likely to change or improve. Even those who seek help and change often fall back into established patterns. I hope your youngest knows that what may seem like intermittent issues is likely a more insidious problem (whether N or not). I hope they choose a path that does not set them up for failure. Wishing you and yours the very best blessings.

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dear FYC,
          Thank you thank you thank you …. I very much welcome your interjection
          You have no idea how much I appreciate your advice
          This “predictive modelling” is new terminology to me
          They feel we ambushed them, just by being in numbers……5 against 2

          This person smokes marihuana as well (we were informed the partner had given it up, not so … it’s a combination of that plus alcohol) and a large part of the problem was involving our eldests girlfirend in taking them to the shops to get some milk, but secretly involved marijuana as well (our eldests girlfriend had no idea) ….had the police pulled them over randomly she would been charged….. our eldest is “absolutely furious” they put her in that position
          Our family do not do drugs and never have, neither does our youngest, only the partner of our youngest

          We have been very cautious not to degrade or attack the “partner” as a person ……only their “behaviour”

          We have tried to remind valuing ones “self worth” to our youngest (our youngest didn’t have this problem until this person came into their life) and has dragged our youngest down to their level, chipping away, bit by bit

          The “partner” comes from a lower socioeconomic background and has always felt intimated by us …. even though we have never given them cause ( we have included them in everything and treated them equally)
          Your CoD paragraph makes a great deal of sense FYC and I’m attentively listening …. the longer they’re together the lower our youngests self esteem … correct ! I shall look up Darlene Lancer. Thank you !

          Our youngest appears “insecure” to be on their own for some reason ….we are all not sure why …as they are the “one” you’d be more than proud to have meet your parents and be anyone’s future “in law”

          Our eldest, has been an “ombudsman” so knows how to handle conflict …. ironic isn’t it
          Its so much harder when it’s your own family and emotions are involved

          Your help and response, FYC, has touched my heart and I truly appreciate your kindness, time n effort, your words of advice and comfort
          My hearfelt thank you ❤️
          I’m hoping my story may help others going thru similar
          Narcissism is everywhere 😞
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. FYC says:

            Dear Bubbles,

            You are most welcome. The term predictive modeling usually refers to a statistical modeling method, but it’s also applied to many other fields to describe any type of predicted outcome (either conceptually or analytically modeled) of an unknown event. In communication, I am using the term applied to anticipated words or feelings. To be more accurate, you may like this article on how the brain works when predicting behavior:

            Given your further input, I have a couple more thoughts:

            Your comment that she struggles with being “too nice” and not feeling “secure” seems to indicate she bases her internal perception on external feedback. If this is the case, she will be vulnerable to manipulation. Encourage (ask versus tell) her to determine her own values and to establish healthy boundaries that honor those values. Doing this will enhance her self-concept and sense of security and increase her self worth.

            Since you already were kind and approving in the beginning, it can be difficult to influence her perception at a later date. This is because once we make a big decision (to buy a car, to move, to be in a relationship) we seek to reduce cognitive dissonance by reaffirming our original decision. Unfortunately, this leaves us open to our blind side (and denial) and this is a chief reason why people have relationship regrets later (when they can’t help but see what they denied long ago).

            If she is dependent or CoD, she is focused on her BF versus on herself. So instead of talking about him and trying to change her mind about him, focus on her instead. Ask her about what she is experiencing and how she interprets that experience and how it makes her feel. Ask her how his behavior matches (or does not match) her own values. Ask her what she would want in an ideal relationship. Hearing her own words may cause her to realize she is drifting away from what she genuinely values.

            In relationships, we always get what we are willing to accept. I hope your sweet daughter knows she innately has the power to choose wisely and honor herself. I wish you both the very best and a happy, healthy outcome. 😘

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear FYC,
            Thank you again precious
            You made very valid, sensible comments n suggestions
            I can see where you are coming from

            Our youngest has been in this relationship for 7 years and really hasn’t had lot of personal comparable relationship experiences

            I’ve always maintained “you earn your way out” of a relationship so no stone is left unturned and there’s no going back because we didn’t do this or didn’t do that ….exhaust every avenue so you leave with a clear conscience

            Good people usually tend to forgive readily and find reasons to excuse unacceptable behaviour without realising the damage n consequences to themselves and others ….. hello !

            I will most certainly apply your clever strategic suggestions and hopefully trigger our youngest’s inner depth processing thoughts

            I most sincerely appreciate your help and advice FYC as it’s been quite a challenging n very stressful period
            Thank you from the bottom of my heart lovely one
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. FYC says:

            Dear Bubbles, You are such a sweet person. I apologize I had no idea. Seven years is a very different situation.

            I truly hope your youngest will not try every avenue before leaving. That may make sense with a healthy person, but an addictive personality will string that tenacity along for life without changing.

            You are so right that our kind instincts lead us to give people the benefit of the doubt, but making excuses for another”s behavior is a slippery slope toward unhealthy patterns. Doing so violates what we actually know and value. It erodes healthy boundaries and twists logic. This is where denial thrives, creating a vicious cycle. Choosing healthy is more important than choosing nice.

            I hope she will take a step back and choose herself over more painful accommodation and compromise. She is worth everything. She will not be unloving or unkind to chose a supportive and healthy life for herself. I do think the free material on Darlene Lancer’s blog will be far more helpful than I can be. My heart and prayers are with you both.😘

          4. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear FYC,
            Thank you again my sweet …no need to apologise at all ….there is so much more to this story, it would literally blow your Manolo Blahniks off .. Im just relaying the short version ….the plot thickens

            Our eldest son just used the terminology “caregiver” regarding our youngest
            That made me wonder about “codependent caretakers” v “caregivers” …… interesting
            I’ve just asked Mr Tudor about this (I think I accidentally posted it on message hooks)
            Your 2nd para surprised me and this other concept has just thrown a spanner in the works

            Our youngest has just now …. in passing, casually mentioned thoughts of ….”getting engaged” in 6 months
            😱…..what the hell ?
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

            * I’m pretty sure NarcAngel is going thru the same…. her sister is about to marry a narc

            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          5. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear FYC,
            Haha…… “Codependency for Dummies” by Darlene …that’s me…… you sure got that right
            Thank you
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          6. FYC says:

            Dear Bubbles, Please, never suggest you are less than you are: an intelligent and caring person. I certainly never consider you a dummy!!! I know Lancer wrote that book for the Dummy series, but she writes a great deal for free as well on her blog. There are many other works of others that may be helpful.

            Marriage solves nothing, it only offers her addict more control. Marriage is very easy to get into and very difficult to escape. This is evidenced by the legal underpinnings that make it so, however, I mean this from an attachment standpoint, as well as the usual factors that bind people together such as her empathic values (that will be used and abused) and all things commingled such as pets, possessions and finances. Not to mention the effects that a child would have or the abuse it would suffer.

            Aside of her CoD traits to accommodate this man and derive her sense of belonging and identity from their relationship, she may also, over the past seven years, settled into a “fantasy bond”. The concept of the fantasy bond was developed by Dr. Robert Firestone, and describes the illusion of connection between a couple that is substituted for feelings of real love and intimacy. This is what I would consider to be existing between an addictive personality or narcissist and a CoD.

            Bubbles, I am here for your and will answer any question you ask with research I have read in the past. The problem is, understanding something does not change that something. Even more so when that something resides in another. CoD and addictive traits are developed over a lifetime and are not likely to change quickly, or at all unless the person with those traits desires to change and remains committed to the process.

            A relationship is like a house, where each person contributes one half of the house to create a whole. The foundation is built with respect for self and other. The four walls are built with love, friendship, communication and interests. The roof is built with passion. Every piece of the structure is necessary for vibrant, healthy relationship. If well built, it will weather any storm. If any component of the house is damaged or missing, those within will suffer the effects of every passing storm or the building will collapse altogether. Far better to begin construction with the right building materials.

            I truly hope your youngest does not marry this guy. More than that, I hope she loves herself more and realizes no amount of loving and giving will make another person whole. Her BF must do that job on his own.

          7. FYC says:

            Dear Bubbles, I wanted to add, I remember Narc Angel’s sister’s story. We traded a few posts on that topic. The thought of life with a narcissist in the woods is like a remote torture chamber with a view. I sincerely hope she does not go through with the move and marriage. Sending loving support to and NA both.😘

          1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest FYC,
            Many many thanks lovely lady for helping me so much, it truly is comforting
            I know you didn’t intend that “particular”book for me (I was being a bit naughty)
            You have supplied me with a lot of very substantial information and I appreciate it most wholeheartedly
            I would like to think growing up in our home and based on our family values, our kids have taken on board and retained many
            values and life lessons …. we have always provided a loving caring and stable environment
            Choice of friends n partners are learning experiences and we need to experience ups n downs, failures n successes, losses n wins in order to grow and define who we are (our eldest daughter was in a relationship for 8 years which was heading nowhere…. she’s happily single and loving it)
            Learning about narcissism has opened up a whole new dimension and there is so much to absorb n take in

            I’m confident our youngest will make the right decision, if not, we will always be there for them
            Your article was extremely interesting to read and I thank you as you have given me the incentive to read further material on the subject
            Your kindness, help n support has been overwhelming and I’m truly grateful
            Heartfelt thanks FYC youre a beautiful soul
            My luv n thoughts are with NarcAngel also
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. FYC says:

            Dearest Bubbles, I have no doubt you provided a very loving, caring and stable environment. I sometimes wonder if such an environment can create too much trust and empathy for those who do not deserve it. If your youngest is CoD, it may be from not knowing that strong boundaries are indeed the most appropriate and loving response to bad behavior. Your youngest may be so loving and giving she would experience setting and maintaining healthy boundaries as too bold or offensive for the “poor addict/N”. This of course is not the case. I wish you and your youngest the best, Bubbles. You are a wonderful person and she is so lucky to have your love and support.😘

  10. Claire says:

    I so relate to this. All of it. Is this an issue with normals?

  11. lisk says:

    ET is high this evening—and it involves remembering the evidence that I came this|close to getting at one point, but gave up that opportunity and instead chose to be trustworthy and not look in his unlocked computer.

    I’m having a lot of flashbacks tonight in general, also, and fantasies about confronting him.

    This article could not have come at a better time. Thank you.

    1. foolme1time says:

      Please try to keep your ET under control. You simply can not look back at what might of been, doing so is only caused by your emotional thinking. You didn’t get the evidence and even if you did, it would not have done you any good as far as the narcissist is concerned. I know you already know this, but as empaths that ET is always in play and trying to take over. Step away from it and think to yourself what will confronting that person really do to help me. This is the hardest thing for me to do, but if you can do this it will honestly help you. I have evidence on most of them I was involved with, I kept most everything, I really never understood why I did that? I didn’t know what they were at the time, perhaps it was just for sentimental reasons, I don’t honestly know, even after disengagement or what they decided the reason was to not be with me anymore, I kept it. Confronting them will only give them fuel, it won’t change them or what they believe. If you have evidence and need to prove to someone who is believing them and not you, is that person really worth it. When I was smeared, it was the hardest thing for me to understand, why would they do that? I wasn’t a threat, I wouldn’t have done the same to them. My mistake was looking at it from my viewpoint and not there’s. To this day I realize it simply isn’t worth it, I would never do such a thing to anyone. I know the truth and honestly that is all that matters in the end anyhow. Think you might like this saying.

      Sometimes you just have to chuck it in the Fuck it bucket and move on! 🙃😘💞

      1. Claire says:

        I feel like I just saw something about such bucket somewhere!

      2. SMH says:

        Wise words, FM1T

        1. foolme1time says:

          Now if only I can keep myself in check! 🤦🏼‍♀️

          1. SMH says:

            lol FM1T, I was going to add something along those lines but about all of us, not just about you

      3. lisk says:

        Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, foolme.

        Logically, I know I made the right, practical choice by not looking at the evidence (I know there was plenty of evidence—he was in his computer the next day “cleaning out” his inbox and his messages).

        I would have been kicked to the curb without a penny had I found the sexts, etc., mainly because I would have confronted him with it ET-style, as opposed to the cold calculation that is required for successful revenge HG-style.

        I got a much better deal by controlling myself at the time.

        And I still get a much better deal if I maintain that self-control, so into the Fuck-It Bucket my ET shall go.

        I have to say, coming here to say “ET is high” is very helpful, especially in terms of keeping me aware of ET and receiving the solid support that you and others give here.

        Thank you again, fm1t. 😊 🙏

        1. foolme1time says:

          Your welcome. Best place in the world to be if you have a head full of ET!! 😘😘

          1. lisk says:

            The best place to be with a head full of ET is a narcissist’s website???

            Ironically, yes!!! 🤗🥰

    2. blackunicorn123 says:

      Lisk – I hope the recent discussions about my situation have not triggered your ET, and if they have, I am very sorry. Xx

      1. lisk says:

        Oh, no, blackunicorn! The recent discussions only hit home because my ET is high for other reasons, including recent hoovers by narcx within the past week or so.

        I appreciate your concern and apology, but you did absolutely nothing wrong by telling your story or stating your opinion!

        Thank you and I hope you doing well. 🙏

        1. blackunicorn123 says:

          Lisk – I’m glad I was not the trigger, but I’m sorry you are having to suffer hoovers. They always stir things up. I hope you can get a grasp on your ET again and find some peace. Best wishes. X

    3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dear lisk,
      Hope youre ok my sweet
      Is there something in the air, planets colliding or are comic forces working against us for some reason as there’s a few of us lovelies going thru high ET right now

      I just looked up wacky days for this month and saw “repeat day” is the 3rd of June 😱
      My thoughts are with those struggling right now because it’s a real bitch
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

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