The Golden Rules of Freedom : No. 3



Dangled by the cruel mistress that is Eternal Hope, the possibility of change, the prospect of alteration and the desire to be there when it happens is a key manifestation of the emotional thinking that keeps a victim ensnared to the narcissist.

There can be no change.

The Lesser Narcissist has no idea what he or she is. Indeed, the Lesser invariably lacks any awareness of their behaviour being considered as ‘wrong’ by a third party. This is how it must be, because from the Narcissistic Perspective, the Lesser is doing what is right for her or him and it matters not the consequences for anybody else. The Lesser’s utter lack of any form of empathy also means that the blindness is so total that change cannot and will not happen. The Lesser will bulldoze through life, the proverbial wrecking ball, causing damage and chaos but seeing nothing wrong with doing so. He or she cannot understand why you are so upset, he or she knows that you deserved that beating and there is nothing wrong with them. The re-appearance of the Golden Period (or more usually since it is a Lesser – the Bronze Period) provides the victim with hope that the worst is over, that the narcissist has taken heed of your tear-filled pleading and look, it has happened, there is change.

This is not a permanent change. It is just part of the ongoing manipulation (and therefore there is no change) but it will give you false hope. It will stop you escaping the narcissist, it will encourage you to keep trying, to maintaining the belief that something can be done so that the narcissist interacts with you in a less hurtful and more benign way. Soon enough the devaluation will appear again – no matter where you sit in the fuel matrix – and you will cling on, trying various methods to bring back that respite period once more or the return to the Golden/Bronze Period. You did not effect that change, the narcissist did it because it suited him or her to do so. They chose because they must always control and it is because of this constant need for control that change cannot and must not happen.

The Mid-Range Narcissist is the member of the brethren who uses the prospect of change to a better way, a happier way, a healthier way more than any other school. It is a repeated protestation (see But I Can Change ) . With no emotional empathy, but usually a degree of (fake) cognitive empathy, the Mid Range Narcissist will choose to make some improvements in his or her behaviour. Sometimes it is the re-appearance of the Golden Period (as explained above) which gives the appearance of change,  but it is merely part of the ongoing manipulation that forms part of the narcissistic dynamic. In other instances there will be a temporary alteration in behaviours (usually as a consequence of being part of a Preventative Hoover). This again is just part of the manipulation and is only done to enable the narcissist to exert control over the victim once again and ensure that the Prime Aims are met. Once that control is achieved (i.e. the escape is stopped) or another appliance is obtained to replace the non-compliant/less compliant one – the supposed change in behaviour will end.

Often a combination of this form of manipulation and the effect of emotional thinking causes the victim to believe that long-lasting change has been effected. It has not. The Mid Ranger, with a higher cognitive function and more application may well attend therapy, may well seek treatment for drinking, may well start helping out more around the house and with the children but it will not last and is only being done to ensure the narcissist’s needs, primarily fuel, are being met. Similar to the Lesser, the Mid Range does not regard his or her behaviour as the problem. Yes, they will have sufficient cognitive function to recognise that their behaviour is viewed as problematic by third parties (hence why the Mid Ranger relies so heavily on maintaining the facade – ‘keeping up appearances’) but they are incapable of ever accepting culpability, liability or blame for their actions.

Accordingly, the alteration in behaviour will only ever be temporary. This is because it is driven not by a recognition that the Mid Range Narcissist is at fault (the narcissism blinds the Mid Ranger to it ever being his or her fault) but is driven purely by getting what the narcissist wants and needs. Once those needs are met, the supposed change stops. Thus, this is why there cannot be change.

You might think “Aha, well if I keep the narcissist thinking that he is going to lose me, then he will modify his behaviours all of the time to keep me.” Nice try. Firstly, you will not be capable of sustaining such an environment. You will find it too draining and too difficult to keep gauging how you should treat us, not to mention that behaving this way runs contrary to your empathic traits. However, the main reason this will not work is because the narcissist will eventually regard you as not complying and look to replace you for a model which is functioning more effectively.  You will be changed, the narcissist will not.

The vast majority of our brethren are Lesser or Mid Range Narcissists and therefore recognising and accepting that there will be no change, conquering your emotional thinking which tries to convince you that you are witnessing change, that it can be achieved, that more effort from you and so forth, are central to this golden rule. There will be no change. Accept that and stop applying your energies to trying to achieve that which cannot be achieved. Anything which tells you to the contrary is emotional thinking.

As for those who claimed to have changed our kind. Mistaken or liars.

As for those who claim to be of our kind and to have changed. Mistaken or liars.

There may be someone who is narcissistic who has altered their behaviours, but they were not a narcissist. The narcissist will not change.

What of the much rarer Greater? Our heightened awareness means that of all the schools we possess the potential for modification, but not wholesale change. There can be no wholesale change because this is what we are, this is how we have been designed and created. Certain elements that you wish to see as a consequence of change are just not there and never will be. You cannot inject emotional empathy into us. We function so effectively, why alter a winning combination? Why take an unnecessary risk? There is no compelling reason to do so. Might we modify? Potentially yes, but once again the overriding need of our narcissism is such that we regard doing so as an unnecessary alteration to our power, a shift in control which is not required. Like the Mid Ranger, we will implement temporary change to achieve our aims, but this is done as an act of largesse and not as a pleading, snivelling last ditch attempt to halt you leaving. You will be grateful for our magnanimous gesture of reigning in our malice – albeit it will only be for so long as we need to and then normal service will be resumed.

The Lesser and Mid-Range cannot change. The Greater may modify, but sees no compelling reason to do so.

There will be no change.

Understand this. Accept this. Apply it and this will advance you further to your freedom and release you from the yoke of false hope that change might happen.

180 thoughts on “The Golden Rules of Freedom : No. 3

  1. PMFfae says:

    So, I have a question about, not a narcissist changing exactly, but a narcissist learning. I understand from this particular article that a lesser or mid-range narcissist will not change and that any appearance of change is a manipulation. However, you mention on this site in various articles (The Very Royal Narcissist series, for example) how narcissists perform certain behaviors like character acquisition and mirroring. Additionally, in another article you discussed the different relationship dynamics between two narcissists and how a mid-range would use different manipulation techniques against a lesser to gain fuel.

    Is it possible for a narcissist in one class (say a lesser narcissist) to unconsciously learn manipulation techniques and gather traits of a higher level of narcissist to become a mid-range narcissist? Basically, I’m asking: is it possible for a narcissist to “learn” to be a “better” narcissist (e.g. higher class)?

    1. HG Tudor says:


  2. Witch: I do not understand your interpretation. Satan is a Son of God. A powerful Angel. On the left hand side. He is created to go against Good. Satan/Lucifer is the Adversary. He is perfect as God made him. Perfectly Evil. And he is doing his job well, and God says he is a worthy adversary. He is not a fallen Angel like fake bible people are teaching. Fallen defined in that he was once virtuous and made a few mistakes and then he came into a fallen state, like one says of a fallen woman. He never changed his spots nor his colors. Many people are falsely being taught and rigorously believe in this untruth. What has happened is those fake Bible scholars made and are still carrying the load of a HUGE error and lie that they made on the Bible. And many that follow them are partaking in the error and lie.The error and lie is that Adam and Eve were the only people on earth and the first people on earth. Because of this lie, these fakers have to tip toe around all the various precepts and symbolisms regarding Adam as they falsely and erroneously teach the Bible. Even a child has asked such liars, if Adam and Eve were the only people, whom did their son Cain marry? And these fakers hem and haw and change the subject to this very day. And, therefore, these fakers do not teach the many precepts that are found, in the Bible, about Adam and his greatness and his Rise and his Fall to this very day. And many symbolisms, etc. in the Bible, regarding Adam are applied by such fakers to Lucifer, and this is very unfortunate for truth seekers. And great for the facade of Satan. Adam was a King on the earth, and he taught ALL the peoples of the earth under God’s instructions. Adam and Eve were Glorious. Adam was Beautiful and Majestic and Royal and full of God’s Grace. And that Glory and Beauty is falsely being applied to Lucifer, when many of those symbolic references are about Adam. A Coverup by fake Bible Teachers. And thus Satan is falsely glamorized and romanticised with the attributes of Adam. Anyway, Satan was envious of glorious Adam and went through his wife Eve and lied to her about many things and told her she would NOT die like God through Adam had taught her, and she then dealt with Lucifer, and because he loved her, Adam, although not deceived by Lucifer, went along with her. And thus came the fall of Glorious and Beautiful and Majestic and Royal Adam and Eve and their lineage. Those are the angels that are fallen that most people do not understand. And those fakers do not teach this. And they both, Adam and Eve, Died: Lucifer lied. And when Adam died, God brought literal Darkness upon the whole entire earth at the same time, and those that lived during that time saw the literal darkness and mourned greatly the death of Glorious Adam. Anyway, the prophecy says many of these fake bible scholars and teachers, etc,, and God also calls them dumb dogs, as it is written, and other such things, are going to lose their flock, because they mislead the people and cause them to err, and it is already happening. Many people are both vocally and quietly removing themselves from all that fake teaching and all those false and ignorant teachers of the Bible, and people are melting away in droves, all over the world.

    1. Witch says:

      From the Jews of Judaism website:
      “He (Satan) is clearly subordinate to God, a member of His suite (Heb. Bene ha-elokim), who is unable to act without his permission. Nowhere is he in any sense a rival of God. The Encyclopedia Judaica The Christian claim that it was Satan who created evil is utterly fraudulent according to our Tanach: I (God) form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 God creates all things, not simply good things. There isn’t a single verse in the entire Tanach that states that Satan ever created evil or ever disobeyed a command from God. Satan is an obedient servant of God in the Tanach who serves the role of man’s accuser in God’s court.”

      As I said angels act as extensions of god’s will in the Old Testament.

      1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Witch: I still do not understand what you are saying to me or making a point about, or expressly, if you are saying something and agreeing with something that I am saying, or are you saying something and disagreeing with something that I am saying, and about what, either way, if any sentence, exactly, of all of the sentences that I have written? As far as what I am saying is concerned, in all of these many posts and sentences of mine on this topic, I am very clear and satisfied, and not confused in the least about what I am saying. Witch, If you are making a point about what something someone else is saying, however, then perhaps they do not know that you are showing them something from you to them. However, If you are either agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me personally, though, it is fine with me, either way, but I just can not tell: Nevertheless, you, Witch, of course, have that right to make your choices and beliefs, as you deem appropriate for yourself, and also to use whatever material and teachings that you determine are convincing to you.

  3. Whitney says:

    Dear HG 🙌 Why have the Midrangers (MMR Somatic, and UMR Elite) both offered me huge amounts of money to help with my business, if I ever need?
    It makes me think they’re Carrier Empaths and I’m a narcissist 😩
    It’s a nice offer I’ve never experienced even from family

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Those are benign manipulations. Since they are narcissists, it is done to control. Also note that they have offered (they have not paid) and it may well be future faking.

      1. Whitney says:

        Thank you HG, my Saviour, you are always right. The UMR Somatic wants me to be dependent on him, and it’s working (the one who chokes me- I changed his school because you said he was either MMR or UMR). On his days off he helps at my shop, then hurts me, and then takes me somewhere like a restaurant and pays for it. Reminds me of Perry and Celeste.

        1. Witch says:

          Did you hear about the criminal case in the UK in which a narcissist murdered his girlfriend and his defence was that it was a wild sex game that went wrong. He was trialed for manslaughter instead of murder… it was murder.
          Dump the Christian Grey Whitney

        2. FYC says:

          Whitney, This man will never change what drives him to abuse you. The cycle of abuse escalates. Get out now. Please. You are worth so much more.

          1. Whitney says:

            Thank you Witch and FYC you have lovely hearts 💖

  4. kel says:

    Here is the scripture about Satan:

    Ezekiel 28: 14-18

    14: You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    15: You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you.
    16: By the abundance of your trade you were internally filled with violence, and you sinned.
    17: Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
    You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor;
    I cast you to the ground
    18: By the multitudes of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries.
    Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you.
    It has consumed you.

    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      Kel: This is about Tyrus. So, start at the Beginning of Ezekiel 28. Start at verse one. This is about the Prince of Tyrus. It is also symbolic of those that rule in that same Spirit. So you could also apply that idea to Satan and those that rule in his spirit. So look at the entire chapter. For example, also verse 12 says, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the King of Tyrus. Kell, do you see that? Also, if you want to really learn the Bible, you need to remove yourself from all of these new remodelled versions, and go back to the Authorized. KJV. You started at verse 13 for some reason. So, you should see Tyrus now. Also, those restyled Bibles and versions will harm your knowledge and learning. And you will not be able to research the Bible Dictionaries and Concordances with all of those new versions of the Bibles. That is a secret from me to you. Also Rulership and Power is also symbolic of beauty, in the Bible. Not just facial features, by the way.

    2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      Kel: I am going to do this, this one time, to show a few things. And that porchdog Google definitely can not help you learn the Bible. Neither will those new versions of the Bible popping up all over the place, like you are quoting from, and you also need a complete Bible. And two, it takes a lot to undo all the false beliefs about the Bible coming from Google and movies and myths and Hollywood and fairy tales and false teachers and on and on. And I am not one to go through it all. God has to call one and give one the strength to do it. Plus, even after someone who knows, go through it all, and is called by God to do so as a profession, it is still up to God that the person being shown will understand it. That is why God says, show them once and then show them twice and that is it. So this is it for me on trying to tell you that Satan is not some once Beautiful once Good now tragic fallen figure. But, for now, Here Goes: You have to read the entire chapter of Ezekiel to see that this is about the ruler Tyrus, not start at verse 14 for whatever reason you started there. But, anyway, on verse 14. where you started: Anointed means placed by God. Cherub is an angel, and also means a Powerful one, so God placed Tyrus as a strong God, in Power. God’s people are also called a Holy Mountain. So God put Tyrus in Power over his own people as well. 15. Tyrus went a while before sinning before God, Kel, just like many people do for example, when they are first new on a job: They are careful for a while. 16. Tyrus though, over time, became enamored of being very rich and honored in his position of power from God, and he started sinning against God’s instructions to him and was violent. Just like how many rulers take an oath of office, but over time, they do what they please and just like how many rich people start thinking that they are untouchable and autonomous, because of their great power and wealth. 17. Tyrus` mind became overly proud because of his great rulership and power, which is also beauty, symbolically (not facial beauty here), and he went against the wisdom of God’s instructions to him, to do what he wanted to do. In short, his position went to his head. 18. He began to to be grand and overly ambitious and pompous, and went into his own personal financial schemes and other such schemes of increasing his power and great wealth and prestige, instead of remembering to follow God’s instructions to him on how to rule. He became Greedy and Vain, beyond the Eden, or form of Paradise, that God gave to him. So, God had Tyrus defeated. Tyrus brought many sinful deeds all over the kingdom that God gave to him. And God had him defeated, and took that kingdom away from him. Fire represents destruction. So, His rulership was destroyed by war from people sent by God from amidst his Kingdom. You can read about Tyrus in the Bible and in other History books. But, on a higher level, you are right in that, the spirit of Tyrus is from Satan, though. And what happened to Tyrus can be applied as a parable, or dark saying, also to Satan and to all that behave that way. And, Satan is a Son of God and Satan, as well, was perfect, and is still perfect. Perfect, in the way that God made him: To be perfectly evil. And not once was he a beautiful tragic fallen angel like you want to believe still and that belief is a weapon in the toolkit in the compartment that holds some of Satan`s pity plays. Kel, that belief of yours could turn into a weak point with you that he can and will exploit. Keep an eye on it, okay? Anyway, perfect is also a technical term with God. When one follows certain protocols that God has established, one is deemed perfect. Also, one can be considered perfect to God, in a goodly way, as well as in an evil way. There is the breakdown of those versus for your convenience. None of this is from Google. I know and understand this from my studies over a long period of time from mamy wise teachers and from God gifting me with the understanding of these complexities.

      1. kel says:


        King James: “thou art the anointed cherub that covereth, … thou wast upon the holy mountain of God”

        Cherub in the Bible is a winged angelic being that attends to God.

        Ezekiel was first speaking of the King of Tyre, and then moved onto describing something that was beyond anything human, it was about the fall of Satan from Heaven.

        Isaiah 14:12-14 – King James

        12: How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

        13: For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of congregation: in the sides of the north:

        14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

        Revelations 12:9 speaks of him as the red dragon that is known as the devil and Satan.

        – But my original comment is Satan sounds like a narcissist to me.

        1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          Kel: Those people, those fake knowers of the Bible, that were never called by God, but ran and started teaching the Bible are misleading you. They mislead the people. One can not just go to seminary school, etc. or just study the Bible and know it. And you can not follow many that tell you its interpretations, even if they have a million diplomas and wear various types of prestigious hats and caps upon their heads. Or, because you find what they say in some Bible interpretation books. With all of those people often conflicting with each other. Check it out. Sometimes the person you least believe, is the one telling you the truth. Like me. Even if certain interpretations are popular, you can believe it all. I am telling you the truth about those scriptures. Even if it is going against what you are pulling up. It is not a novel, but a Living Book. God has to give one the knowledge of the mysteries carried within this Book, and He says this. I know all about those people that confuse multitudes. And I know all about symbolism. So, Kel, much of the symbolism about Satan and Lucifer also applies to the NATIONS that follow his dictates and God then moves to take their rulership away from them, and He discusses them and their fall, and He even laughs at them. God often speaks in broad brush strokes, in the past and in the present and in the FUTURE. The Bible is also a book of PROPHECY. God does not speak on a timeline the way that we do. And He is very poetic. So Satan and Lucifer, etc. is also the various nations that ruled and rules and will rule until God takes them down Because they are like their Father, the Devil and Lucifer in the way that they rule. The Stars of God are also a name for God’s people, so are the Mountains, like I told you, but this does not take with you, as well as the many definitions of the word Angel, is not taking with you. Once again, Satan never was a Good Angel that ruled over good angels up in heaven as a Beautiful Angel in heaven sitting right next to God, and then he made a few mistakes and became a fallen angel as I explained in all those posts below, about this pity play. And many mistakenly believe this because they make mistakes with the scriptures. And I gave you the analogy of a Site Moderator, down below, that bans someone because they are uncouth. Lucifer is uncouth. And, at this point, I am not saying this to you in particular, but for the record. Lucifer rules over evil angels and he rules over peoples and Nations down here on the earth that follow him. God laughs at all of it. He that sits in the heavens shall laugh. The Land of the North, is North America where Satan has his seat of power currently. It is here that Satan has weakened the Nations, with modern Babylon the Great: But, many people are afraid to say all this. The Bible is also Poetic and it is a mystery and a puzzle and a history book and it is full of dark parables. Satan and the countries that follow his dictates do not want to submit to the children of God and this has been a constant controversy on the earth. Including, who are actually the children of God today? A huge controversy. But, I will stop now. It is way too much to go over everything you will pull up, and I personally do not have the strength at all to do so, plus, you resist what I tell you anyway, which makes me even more exhausted, and you have that right to resist whatever you want in your life. But, sometimes, what we post is for someone else and not for the person that we are actually posting to. Another mystery in life. The end, but still friends.

        2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          Kel: I could break down all of those scriptures that you just listed. But, I believe you will resist, because you may not have heard what I say, before, or it is not what you think it means, or it goes against what you will google from the `experts.` And it does take work from me, but I too have to conserve my energy, if my work is not going anywhere. But I will say for you to always remember some of the scriptures are speaking of the past and some of the present and some of the FUTURE. Just remember that. And some of those people do not know what they are talking about, even though they try very hard. One can not force Bible knowledge into oneself, like when reading a novel. God has to help one.

          1. kel says:

            Dear PSE

            I don’t think we disagree really but that we both will stick with our own interpretations.

            I will just add that I will take the words at face value as in ‘holy’ mountain of God meaning where God is. Moses had to remove his shoes on the mountain when he went to get the Ten Commandments because God was there, it was holy.

            In any case whether Satan was ever beautiful does not change that he seems to have NPD to me. On Earth he is certainly a red dragon who dresses in disguise to seduce and manipulate and steer us away from God, and that is the kind of experience I had with the last narc in my life that kept my mind focused on him for the last nine years instead of on God, me or my life. The parallel seems very similar and that was all I was commenting on.

            I respect your commentary and hope you do with mine as well. Signing off on this one, lol, see you on another thread. 😊

          2. Witch says:

            You think satan sounds like he has NPD and not god?

          3. Kel says:


            God is love. He is not hate. He isn’t false or manipulative or seducing. He isn’t a philosophy I pulled out of the blue. He’s real, if you want to find him you will, if you don’t then you won’t. Narcissism is a reptilian smile at the cold uncaring deception of a false manipulator – that’s not God. You’re getting the fact he’s holy mixed up with grandiosity, which it’s not. He’s so good, he’s pure, it’s just what he is. Satan wanting to rise above him and be worshipped with no goodness and purity is grandiosity, false, narcissism.

            (WordPress is making me type in my email and I hope it’s not going to pin that stupid angry generic avatar onto my comment!) 🙄

        3. Kel: The Bible interprets itself. Like it says, none of the scriptures and prophecies need a mate, and none of them will fail. It interprets itself, here a little and there a little, line by line by line, and precept by precept, as it is written. But, Lucifer`s Light Bearers and his Bright Morning Stars have been very busy: all of his fake teachers and fake Bible commentaries regurgitating the same lies and entrenched errors, and conflicting with each other, and lies agreed upon, and Fake TELevangelists and Fake wearers of so many different religious literal caps and literal hats on top of their heads, with all of their worthless diplomas, and grand titles and grand garments. And speaking so many fake platitudes saying such things as, `Hurt people hurt people,` and God does not create evil or kill, and such stuff. And that A Once Beautiful and Once Good Satan, once started a war up in Heaven up there with The Creator, etc. (Satan wish he had such power) all have done a lot of work. In a bad way. Whew. And have deceived and are deceiving multitudes. And one can barely speak around them, just like one could barely speak around such types when they all were mostly saying the earth was flat, with all of their degrees and accolades and books and equipment. Well, they were wrong. It was like trying to speak in the wilderness. Many people that believed them did not live long enough to see that such people were wrong, by teaching that the earth was flat. And when alive, many would tell those that rejected those lies, that those statements of the experts must be true, if the majority were saying it, and then saying that the ones that were the outliers, must be in the wrong with erroneous personal interpretations and their own personal warped truth, by saying the earth was round. And those that believed those that taught them the earth was flat, were showing the outliers, that rejected that lie, the many books and scholarly agreements, and intricate equipments and scientific experiments and the certain prestige and the many financial and royal patronages, and the general fame and expertise and other interdisciplinary agreements of those that said that the earth was flat. How could so many reknown people be wrong when they say the earth is flat with all of their proof, they would ask??? Oh well. They were wrong. Let’s see what is happening on the other threads, now, like you said, Kel. We have a stalemate here. It happens. And I have personally noted anyway, and I have said so, that this is the era of polarization. I do find it interesting, though, this intense polarization these days. The line seems to have been drawn in the sand of people’s hearts these days, and the majority of people are standing their ground, more than ever before. I never saw anything like it. This fact interests me. Ok, Kel, so onward to other threads, it is. Still friends. 🙂

          1. Lorelei says:

            Maybe HG should look into being an evangelist. It would be fun to watch! They can make some cash flow happen!

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I think that God got a sick sense of humor, Lorelei.

          3. Lorelei says:

            If that Joel guy can do it HG can. His wife seems nice. I should actually not poke fun—mega churches offer a sense of community, have excellent schools, etc. I just remember Steve Martin (?) playing an evangelist in a movie and it was quite animated. I like the Joyce woman too but I’m just not religious. I especially like her ability to attribute a life trajectory to a value system—it’s just not one I subscribe to based on the same theology.

          4. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Hi Lorelei: Being an `Evangelist` of such that I speak of, which is the great majority, is way beneath HG Tudor. HG also likes to hide a lot of himself, as well, I have noticed. And not be `on` every day and around every one, all of the time. And HG prefers to control his accessibility, both publicly and privately. He is autonomously gregarious, if there is such a thing. And that `Evangelist` madness, I doubt would satisfy his mysterious Primary Aims, because it would be an activity that he would find just too slimy, I think. And I say that he needs to be in some other other sort of field where he can have the most control over when and where to be out, and when and where to be in, as he see fits: To Control is to Cope, for our dear HG. No, Lorelei, I think HG would pass on your suggestion. And, I would concur. Hear ye! Hear ye! This case is closed, unless HG Tudor reopens it.

          5. Violetta says:

            Are we arguing over Free Will vs Predestination? Because if God created Lucifer evil, then God is punishing Lucifer for what God did.

            This might have more to do with NPD than one might think. Daniel Amen has discussed the links between brain damage or birth defects and moral choices. If Henry VIII and Hitler had CTE from repeated concussions (Henry from jousting, Hitler from a violent father), how much can they be held responsible for “choosing” evil? We’ve already seen evidence that sociopaths tend to have both different brain wiring and environments that are morally chaotic.

            I don’t want to turn every jerk out there into an excuse to sing “Officer Krupke”: “he ain’t no delinquent; he’s misunderstood,” but there does seem to be a recipe. Neurologist James Fallon found sociopathic markers in his own brain, but had a loving and morally consistent family, so he never developed into a full-fledged sociopath–just a basically decent guy with a tendency (which he struggled against) to be self-absorbed. HG’s siblings grew up in the same family, but apparently did not have the neurology to become sociopaths.

            I do believe in God, but I seriously hope he has a sliding scale. Environment may not be everything, and neurology may not be everything, but the combination seems quite capable of overpowering the Free Will we think we have.

          6. kel says:


            Good points. My take is: We all sin, none of us pass the test on that. If we can love someone and forgive them, then God can too, much more than us. If a narc does bad things because he’s wired that way, but also does good things for others, God knows who they really are inside, even if they don’t. Likewise for the rest of us, it’s what’s in our hearts, and the light we shine while we’re here.

        4. Kel: In fact, God is way more forgiving than many people. God says when you stop doing a sin, he will `forget` about it. But, people Kel? Oh my goodness! Some people will never forget nor forgive one, no matter how one attempts to make amends,even when one is truly sincere about making the amends, and will not make that mistake again. That is why when King David had to pick his punishment, out of the selection presented to him, David said, he rather fall into the hands of God for his punishment, than into the hands of men. I agree with him. Let God punish me, I agree, not people. Amen.

  5. Mary Robinson says:

    The one good thing narcs do is make people become incredibly strong.

    1. Violetta says:

      If they survive.

      1. Pati says:

        Exactly, I was listening to the song I will survive last night by Gloria Gaynor. It has given me some hope.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Balls to hope, Pati and forget Gloria Gaynor. You can do more than survive by using my work.

          1. Pati says:

            Trust me I do use your work HG, and it very educating,informative and useful.

        2. Dolores Haze says:

          Dear Pati, it’s a great song and it has helped millions of women and sensitive gay boys in the hour of need. But I agree with HG: the goal is not just to survive, but to thrive by learning and making emotional thinking your bitch. Guided by HG, naturally. P.S. Happy Birthday yet again!

          1. Pati says:

            I agree, all my about looking to the logic. Our ET kills it. Than you for your birthday wishes Dolores.

      2. FYC says:

        MR: The N does not make anything incredible strong. N abuse distorts, or deflects one’s attention, from what already exists within, but may not yet by recognized. Once free of N manipulation, strength emerges. In truth it was there all along, just denied or unseen due to the unhealthy dynamic.

  6. LambToLion says:

    Thank you all for your supportive words and good wishes. I shall continue reading here , it’s the best blog I have found about narcissism on the internet. HG knows these Narcs like no one else can.
    Wishing you all peace, and light!

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Lorelei says:

        Someone asked about changing your way—you said there is no need to. Yet, this contradicts the more pro-social initiative does it not? (Or) Do you really mean not change all aspects? That changes are ultimately to suit you—where being pro-social benefits you it is a win win? Just seeking clarification. I know I’ve mentioned that redesigning my own behavior in some ways is essential. It’s all about me—me first.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Being pro-social means achieving what I need and want to achieve by applying a different methodology. It is not a wholesale change. That is impossible.

          1. Lorelei says:

            So you no longer swagger in wearing a wife beater and a carrying a ball bat! Good progress!

          2. Lorelei says:

            So.. “Being pro-social means achieving what I need and want..” You then spoke of replacing a car. Does this essentially mean you accept a behavioral revision was in order, but that there is ultimately never a time where disengagement may not occur due to the plague of the narcissist dynamic/personal history? It’s interesting to me because we are all wired in our own way. I’m prime fodder for a narcissist yet I struggle with not wanting a normal relationship which seems to be the majority goal. I travel the world alone at my choosing and happily—I’ve no “need” for a normal dynamic. I’m wired to be ok that way and it has hurt people in the past on a few occasions that view my independent nature as an antagonist.
            It’s highly unlikely someone will be so fabulous as to have me churning out a miserable baked steak by 6pm on Tuesday nights. Shifting who I am to accommodate a majority lifestyle makes me cringe like a cat near water. Is this a feeling you understand? Is there a similarity?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            I do not accept that a behavioural revision was in order, I identified that in certain situations that an alternative route may be available to achieve a similar result.

            Disengagement may not occur. Read 5 Reasons We Disengage. If there is no Disengagement Trigger, then Disengagement will not occur. Of course, it often does trigger but it is not guaranteed.

            No, you and I are very different.

          4. Lorelei says:

            Elton didn’t pee his pants or eat bugs! Love him. We are indeed different.

          5. WhoCares says:


            What’s better fuel: provoking a former IPPS to procure negative fuel or – say, fuel elicited from achievement and admiration for your work here (not from a tertiary source but say, in the event that you went public with your work on Narcissism)?

          6. HG Tudor says:

            Define better – do you mean more potent, more frequent or a large amount, or all three?
            Clarify who the comparators are. One is the Former IPPS, who is the other, that is not clear.

          7. WhoCares says:


            “Clarify who the comparators are. One is the Former IPPS, who is the other, that is not clear.”

            I can’t clarify this because I can’t predict the future. But obviously if more people who are more proximate to you in your fuel matrix knew of the achievement and responded positively that would increase its potency, and potentially, frequency.

            I know which one is better in terms of potency but I guess by “better” I mean duration or sustainability for the future.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Ah, so if I understand you correctly you mean what if say all of my family and friends knew of my achievements (through my work here) and expressed admiration for them. Then that would be positive fuel from NISSs and the frequency and amount would depend on the method of delivery.

          9. WhoCares says:


            Thank-you for your answer.

            “you mean what if say all of my family and friends knew of my achievements (through my work here)”

            Now that you say this, I realize that I can clarify the comparators – sorry; I did not mean your family and friends, I was thinking more colleagues (in related fields and specialties i.e. psychology and trauma specialists, etc.), clients and fans in general (if you came out to the world at large) – so, yes all NISS.

            However, I think I did get my answer on sustainability – thank-you.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            I do not have colleagues in psychology etc, I do not work in those fields.

            Clients and readers are for the majority, Tertiary Sources.

          11. Pati says:

            HG, honestly I strongly believe that you know way more about your kind than any psychiatrist or psychologist will ever know. You have studied the behavior in people and know your kind inside out. These doctors just go by the book and that is not enough in my eyes.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            You are correct and thank you.

          13. Pati says:

            Always a pleasure HG!

          14. WhoCares says:


            “I do not have colleagues in psychology etc, I do not work in those fields.

            Clients and readers are for the majority, Tertiary Sources.”

            Thank-you HG – I know you do not have colleagues in those fields but if you came out publically and claimed the identity “HG Tudor, the number one source on Narcissism” – the only other (self-proclaimed) “experts” on Narcissism would be individuals in the aforementioned fields – they, therefore, would be your contemporaries or ‘peers’ at the very least. (You don’t really have peers in this avenue; as I am not of the opinion that anyone has equal expertise.)

            I could see that clients and readers could remain tertiary.

            It’s all just a hypothetical consideration.

          15. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for clarifying, I understand the point you are making. Those individuals over time could become secondary. En masse, their fuel would outstrip that of the former IPPS in certain situations.

          16. WhoCares says:

            “Those individuals over time could become secondary. En masse, their fuel would outstrip that of the former IPPS in certain situations.”

            Thank-you for your answer HG – and for the discussion.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            You’re welcome

  7. Susan says:

    Accepting there would be no change was by far the hardest task. I went through the same classic grieving process one does when a loved one passes on before letting go, namely, Denial and isolation. Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance (attributed to Ross and Kessler).

    The realization that what I experienced was dt the manipulations with the bronarc (and other narcs), and that there would be no change, became a call to action. Learning that “No” was a complete sentence, learning to set boundaries, to speak my mind and expect to be respected and step away from people who wouldn’t do so, were important lessons along the way.

    Another important concept that had to be amended was my long held notion of forgiveness. As a spiritual person, I believe that anyone can change, deserves another chance, and needs forgiveness.
    But what caused me to grapple with my definition of forgiveness was that no matter how many times I forgave, the offenses never stopped. Repeated belittling, demeaning, disrespect, trampling of boundaries, manipulations, the list goes on…..

    I learned that though I need to forgive, if someone will not respect basic emotional human needs like individual rights and boundaries, right to privacy, dignity, self esteem, etc, and repeatedly tramples these concepts, I do not have to grant them access to my life. This really helped me control the Anger I felt about the way I was treated and control the guilt I felt about making a decision to part company. Forgive? Yes. But, walk away.

    1. FYC says:

      Susan, I’m sorry you had to deal with this. I too have familial Ns. I am able to effect change in virtually every other area of life, but never with an N. Forgiveness is key because the N did not choose their circumstances and forgiveness frees the forgiver, but moving on and ceasing to give energy to their machinations is definitely the way to go. Well done.

      1. Susan says:

        Thank you, FYC!

    2. NotMe! says:

      A helpful post thank you Susan. Separating forgiveness from the desire to help (when no help is possible) and disengaging without bitterness (which I’d have to carry with me) gave me a little more peace today. Best wishes

  8. kel says:

    I do believe these traits are inherited and born into a narcissist, and developed in childhood. Not necessarily by abuse, as I believe narcissist’s are much more highly sensitive to being wounded and perceiving things as wounding than others. Their abuse level is on a short fuse of traumatic levels from occurrences that would easily be completely not felt by their siblings. They will undoubtedly have a narcissist influence in their lives which they will learn from by example and feel a kinship and a likeness to.

    Empaths who’ve been subjected to the abuses from narcissist’s develop bad emotional thinking caused by the psychological effects of living around narcissists. We don’t have a distortion that warps our thinking to bend towards our own bias. We can change, we can see the truth in ourselves and others, we can reverse the damage. Damage we wouldn’t have, weren’t born with, that we only incurred from the slow steeping psychological abuse from narcissists.

    We are expected to change, but not the narcissist. Of course we do need to recognize the damage done to us, remove it and fix it. While almost all narcissist’s are unaware, I’ve noticed that they do realize there’s something different about themselves, that they’re hiding. Since they’re so focused on themselves, they can’t understand that everyone else isn’t focused on them too. But even aware narcissist’s can’t step away from the thing they are drawn to, the thing that feels right to them, narcissism is something they’ve always embraced with or without abuse. Golden child or not, I believe most were golden as that’s their only perception they can have of themselves and their narcissism drives them to excellence whether cerebrally or somatically, crafting manipulative behavior because they always want something special, and always have to be in control- even as a child. Abuse to them as children is no different than the wounding they feel as adults, they are hyper sensitive and feel wounded by unintended comments from people who accidentally don’t see them as the sole source of importance. That’s why they learn to create and grow and harvest victims, that’s why they abuse- to warp the thinking of their victims to being hyper focused on them, the Narc, only.

    But when a narcissist CAN face the reality of what they are, and can see that the thing they are harms others, and when they even describe themselves as something evil and harmful, though they possess no empathy, they know what they are and do is wrong, but they are not uncomfortable with who they are, they have no desire to change. They were born with these traits, they developed them from the beginning in their childhood. But if it were possible for them to change, to stop causing harm to others, they still wouldn’t want to. They warn us how evil they are, they tell us to run from them, and they continue on. Lucifer was an angel, the most handsome, most intelligent, most favored, but became so impressed with himself, wanted to be above God and praised by all, and thus fell from grace, it is the story of narcissism. If there’s a choice for narcissism, then I haven’t heard of any that have been converted, but on the other hand, I haven’t heard any who wanted to change. Maybe some have changed, if one has, I would be interested in reading about their story. But still I have to believe we all have free choice. An empath can choose bad, can embrace evil, can walk that path.

    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      I agree with a lot of what you said, with some objections about Lucifer and his beauty and his intelligence, but everyone is free to read the Holy Bible and read about Lucifer, but he was very envious of mankind, and seduced us into the fall by gaslighting us and by knowing the dangers of our curiosity and by knowing the dangers of our inherent emotional thinking and our other weaknesses before we knew them, just like deceiving children does not make an adult intelligent, per se, but rather sneaky and crafty. And so out of great envy he lied to Eve, and that weakness that we have, that emotional thinking, overcame her logic, and she obeyed his damaging suggestions. And Lucifer behaves to me like a mid ranger, more than a Greater, because he thinks he is smarter and better than God. And Lucifer hides what he does and he is vicious, and sulky and many people do not believe he is the way he is, nor even believes that he exists, because he hides his nature so well, to many people. And, in addition, there are plenty of obedient Lieutenants and Minions, keeping Lucifer`s plans hidden in plain sight, from many people. And he is not intelligent in thinking that he can defeat his Creator. I would say Lucifer is more crafty, deceitful, sly, and wily and hateful, than intelligent. And he plays the victim for many people, who then feel sorry for him. But, he is still a worthy adversary. HG says many midrangers are very intelligent, some even more intelligent than Greaters, even if Lucifer would be defined as a Greater. Even today, those people that consider themselves Elite, and many people call them, The Elite, are in 2 camps. They are divided. One camp actually wants to bring on Armageddon and Fight the Creator and defeat Him, with all the best created weapons of the earth, while the other camp are saying, Are You Crazy? We Finally Got The Whole World In Our Hands And We Have Finally Subdued The People and Countries of the Earth, Beneath Us, let us enjoy it all and all of our powers and great wealth while we have time!!! And that later group is more intelligent than the former group who desire Armageddon and think, with their Magical Thinking, that they could actually defeat God in a war. And, therefore, those 2 groups of `The Elite`, or some prefer to call them `The Illuminati` have friction with each other about how to proceed. Because, at that very high level, they know there is a Creator. And the `Elite` are divided about what to do next to extend their own current rulership of the Earth, for as long as possible. But, I will never be the one to tell Narcissists nor Empaths nor Normals that we can not practice to modify our behaviours, nor ever evolve in a better way for the betterment of mankind. Whether or not any of us, `Feel` like it. Oftentimes, Feelings are very overrated.

      1. kel says:

        Hi PSE, the Lucifer description was one I got from scripture from googling – not sure where it’s located, but I’ve heard all my life that description of Lucifer being the most beautiful angel and becoming, basically, narcissistic, and being kicked out of Heaven. I have to say I’ve got to wonder about him in the Garden of Eden seducing Eve with his secrets, considering their first born Cain was so jealous and a murderer. Yes, I hope we all have the freedom to choose what’s in our hearts despite the mistakes we all make, and which path we follow.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Dear Kel, I dare to disagree a little with you. The story of narcissism doesn’t originate in the falling from grace of Lucifer, but on the Greek myth of Narcissus and Echo. The name Lucifer comes from Lux (light in Latin). Lucifer’s “sin” was a problem of hubris, nothing that the Greek gods didn’t punish before… basically, any act of rebellion or pride that exceeds the authority has to be punished by the gods, in a polytheistic religion or in a monotheistic one. Odysseus, for example, was punished for the same reason and he was a hero. Ironically, I like Milton’s Satan, one of the most interesting characters in Paradise Lost in my opinion (after Eve). Of all three characters, Adam is the least attractive to me and instead of seeing him as a victim, I think he was lame and lacked initiative. In relation with the name Lucifer, we watched a movie on Apple Watch last night titled Luce, a thriller. Someone in the movie is a psychopath but I won’t say who because I don’t like spoilers, although…

          1. kel says:

            Dearest Sweet P,
            No disagreement that the term narcissist began with the Greeks. I was using poetic license saying that it sounds like Lucifer developed NPD causing his fall from grace. His name was said to mean Morning Star in Heaven- and became Satan after. I don’t mess with him, he’s evil, I don’t even like saying his name which is why I said Lucifer. Cruella Deville- Disney always does it right! I can’t diss Adam, he’s the father of mankind, and I’m hoping had a little more pizazz than a Ken Barbie doll (he always seemed so square). If he’d tied that serpent in a knot or something, but then idk, he had to go out and work the land after getting kicked out of Eden, I’m sure he had a strapping physique. Satan was just a seducer, a conman, he’d sell you a nice piece of swampland.

          2. WokeAF says:

            Great movie.
            I think there was more than one sociopath tho.

        2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          Kel: Many people believe that Lucifer is beautiful, but he is not. But, he is seductive. Just like some men that are considered ugly, still seduce many women. But, it takes a lot of scriptures to put that together and I have seen the various precepts put together, beyond the first pass from google and a few common scriptures. The truth is that Lucifer is ugly. Although he presents himself as the light bearer, etc. And many people think that Lucifer is beautiful also because of Hollywood. And please do not get me started on that porchdog that calls itself Google. Also, some of the scriptures that people think are about Lucifer are actually about Adam. Adam was beautiful/handsome. Not Lucifer. And Lucifer did not become Narcissistic. God created him that way. Lucifer is a son of God. But, on the left hand side. Lucifer was kicked out of the meetings in heaven because he always complained about the sins of the children of God, as he walked to and fro on the planet earth. Despite the fact that he, Lucifer, set off the sinning in the first place. So Lucifer is pushed out before the face of God, to be down here with us all now, 24/7. And he is full of wrath. And he is ugly. And his demons are ugly. It is in the modern world, with sleight of hand, that people now think that Lucifer and his demons are beautiful. There is even a TV series now, called Lucifer. And I would say that the lead actor playing Lucifer is attractive to many people. One of the most beautiful people in the actors` category. Also, remember, some scriptures are shown to people and some scriptures are not shown to people, even by Pastors, and some of these Pastors are benign and do not know the truth, and some are malign, that find the truth in the Bible inconvenient for their selfish goals with their followers, so they skip over certain scriptures. But both of those 2 groups are going to lose their congregations because of their ignorance and also because of some of the evil, and deliberate lies about life, that they push on people, says the Bible prophecy. Anyway, and as the Bible itself says, it is not for everyone to know the mysteries of the Bible. And as the Bible itself says, God has to open a person’s understanding. And as the Bible itself says, the understanding is also in precepts, here a little and there a little. And as the Bible itself says, someone that knows all this has to show you. However, I am not a Bible teacher. But, I do know what I know about the Bible, and I know that Lucifer is ugly. And many people also think that Lucifer is the King of Hell. And, he is not. Apollyon runs Hell. Pastors encourage or allow that belief about Lucifer as well. Also, the war in heaven was against the children of God that are on earth, that are also called heaven. The children of God are also called: the Kingdom of Heaven. Lucifer and his demonic angels were fighting against the children of God and the good angels right here on earth. And that is why God sent the powerful archangel Michael to help in that Battle. ON EARTH. But, right now, Lucifer and his demons have the upper hand in the battle. Because God says he gave Lucifer a certain timeframe to be in rulership down here. Lucifer was not running amuck and causing mayhem in the Creator`s sphere, like people say. He is not strong enough to cause madness like that up there around the Creator. They all tremble before the Creator. What I am saying, in short, is that Lucifer has pushed plenty of positive attributes about himself, strong stories about himself, and various pity plays on his own behalf, that are not true, in order to strengthen his facade, among mankind. So that many people will be seduced into following him. And God himself says that Lucifer/Satan is a worthy adversary for us. Although many of us are sleeping on that fact, one way or the other. But, if some people still want to believe that Lucifer is beautiful. And if some people feel that they have seen all the proof necessary for them to believe so: They have the right and they have the free will to do so. Just hope you never see Lucifer’s `beauty` face to face, while you are still in a flesh and blood body. It would be quite the occurrence.

          1. kel says:

            PSE, I don’t believe Satan is beautiful inside or out. From what I understand he was an angel in the beginning and was beautiful then but became envious and ugly inside and out. My understanding is that God would not create anything evil, Satan betrayed Him and was kicked out. The end of time, the faithful will be separated from the unfaithful, and Heaven will have no evil Satan followers. He is ugly and evil, but a great deceiver, so parades behind a false mask to seduce and deceive the faithful, like he did with Adam and Eve, and all through time to present day. I was just commenting that disguising himself – like the saying goes – ‘the Devil doesn’t come to you in a red cape and horns, he comes to you as everything you ever wanted’ – and seducing us whispering our desires and tempting us – all sounds exactly like narcissism to me. Not trying to offend HG with that or any narcissist’s, but that’s exactly what it sounds like to me. He tests our faith in God, he even tried to tempt Jesus. All the demons and fallen angels all wrap up to Satan, Satanic, to me, they are evil and I do not mess with them. As an empath, we do tend to have an extra sense of things, and anything of that nature, I do not fool with. I could sense a presence like that in the narcissist I knew, not that he necessarily was aware of it himself or maybe he just thought it was his own power, or maybe he did know, I don’t know, but it’s very real. But all I meant by my original comment was that Satan as a fallen angel, that his seductive deceit sounds very similar to narcissism to me, no offense to anyone intended.

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Kel: Also, God created beauty and ugliness. He created life and death. Peace and war. He created good angels and evil angels. In the Bible, Gods says that He created the world 2 by 2. Two by Two. And Good is set against Evil, etc. etc. God created hate and love. And He says there is a season for all of it. Many people do not like to think of God this way. He says he kills and he makes alive. Many are raised to think of God as not creating and issuing commands the way He does. And also, this is a big one, many are told that God does not hate. hahaha. But, he discusses what He hates. People have to reread the scriptures themselves that their Pastors and religious advisors tip-toe quietly away from. Many think that He does not have favoritism. And nothing is prefered by Him over something else. However, God says He laughs at some people. And becomes angry. He is not sitting on a cloud all day doing nothing and thinking nothing. And, He is never tired and He never sleeps, He says. Mostly, people do not believe all of this, because of all these false Pastors and religious leaders that do not correct people, for their own selfish reasons. When these guys are on TV, I immediately turn the channel on those liars. And God looks at all what He created and He says it is all good, the way He has created reality. He is very pleased with His script, the Scriptures, as it plays out. Whether certain people of the creation like it or not. Or, even believe it. So what, he says. He says, in the Bible, So What, if some do not believe. He says, He, The Lord, does all these things. But, many people have put the characteristics of The Creator in a `box` of their own understanding. Even when they read and see that He is saying precisely contrary to what they are believing and what they are saying and what they are thinking. And Hollywood has a lot of fake platitudes about reality and God, and many of us have been basted, cooked and stewed and roasted and sauteed by that Hollow Wood, our entire lives (I have been cooking more lately). But, if they would look into that `box,` that they think that they have placed God and now that He is supposed to be housed, they will see that: He Is Not In There. So, Satan/Lucifer/That Old Dragon, as some of his names are, was Ugly in the Beginning and he still is. He did not become ugly and envious, by going against God, etc. He was created in that adversarial manner, from the beginning, and thus his resultantly bad behaviour. He WAS kicked out of heaven and lives down here now, because of his constant smearing of the children of God. Tell me who likes and wants to around an incessant complainer and nonstop blame shifter, like Lucifer? Many people have a problem believing some of the negative about Satan. And in the United States, where I am from, many have a problem believing that anyone can be born bad. Why is that? It is even politically incorrect to say that a certain person could just be born bad, in many circles, even in some psychological and social, professional circles in the U.S. But Satan and his demons are created by God as ugly and bad. In the two by two. To go against beauty and good. And if one at some point finally understands that Satan was born bad and created ugly, why would that bother anyone. Anyway, please do not shoot the messenger. And, as the scriptures say, have I become your enemy because I tell you the truth? Chastise those that lie to you.

          3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Kel: Satan did not deceive Adam at all. Many people also believe this, but they have to reread. And find all of the precepts regarding Adam and Eve and That Old Dragon/Lucifer/The Devil/Satan, throughout the entire Bible. Lucifer worked on Eve, until he deceived her, because Eve had a weakness in that she also wanted to control her husband Adam, and that is the weakness that Lucifer worked on. And, Eve was the weaker vessel, in that couple, so that Old Dragon deceived Eve. He had a better chance deceiving her than going against Adam who talked and walked with God. Adam had already instructed Eve to not listen to him. Adam was chosen and personally taught by God to be over everything and all the people of the earth at that time. Eve was chosen by God to be his wife. Adam was King. The entire world was instructed at the feet of Adam. Lucifer told Eve that she was being kept out of certain knowledge because God and Adam did not want her to progress, and that sort of thing, and that type of discussion stimulated her emotional thinking, and that Old Dragon told her she would be a god and would not die, if he gave her the knowledge. Lucifer lied and of course she died. However, Adam never left her side after going along with her. That was what Adam did: He obeyed Eve when she came to him after her error, and he participated in her error. He loved her. But, Adam was not deceived by Satan. For example, many men still obey their women to do wrong, even when they sometimes know better. Men often like to please us for good and also for bad, sometimes. So Adam was not deceived by Lucifer. Eve was. And God told Eve, after the fiasco, that she still will obey Adam. God created a hierarchy of power, and Men in general are to be respectfully over women, and then children respectfully under their parents. But, now even less men want to be men, and in charge, than ever before. The world is extra feminine now with both natural born women, and with many men trying to be feminine, and with still other men trying to turn themselves, with science falsely called, into women, all thrown into the mix. And Adam and his offspring have had to work hard to make a living, ever since, and other punishments for their offspring until this very day, for listening and obeying at that time, That Old Dragon, also called Lucifer and Satan. And yes, Satan could not show most people his natural born ugly looks. They would pass out, literally. He hides. But, he was created ugly. But, beautiful angels rarely show themselves either. And still not in full glory. People of flesh and blood would still faint from their full glory. And in the Bible there are stories regarding this fainting occurring. God has both Ugly and Beautiful angels. Two by two. And, angel means, messenger. So both sets of angels hide themselves or reduce their glory, appropriately, when, in person, they are dealing with certain people on this planet. As the scripture says, some people have entertained angels, unawares.

          4. Kel: Also, Please know that Lucifer also being called A Lightbearer and a Bright and Morning Star, etc. is sort of a dramatic irony, and a pun and a joke, and a mockery and a sarcasm, by God, in that Lucifer in reality is the exact opposite. As he was created to be by The Creator. That Old Dragon/Satan/Lucifer/The Devil never had the characteristics of Light and Morning, but always of Darkness and Midnight. For example, Just like some people call a fat guy, `Tiny`. And such nicknames like that. Just like, when some hapless person is told that a guy named Tiny will be around to pick up the `payment`, and to make sure the money is available. And then later Tiny knocks on that hapless person’s door to pick up the payment/extortion money. However, when the hapless person opens the door, Oh My Goodness, actuall, a big Gorilla sort of sullen and pugilistic type of guy is knocking at the door, and waiting to pick up the extortion money. No one `Tiny` at all, although he is often called by certain people by the name, Tiny. And the Big Gorilla sullen guy says: `Hey. I’m Tiny–I’m here to pick up the the payment, or else.` Likewise, That Old Dragan, Satan, The Devil, Lucifer, is not a former bearer of light, rather more accurately, he was and is a death star. He was not once a most beautiful angel of Light and Morning and then he changed and all that and then he fell from being an angel and all that. Nope. Not True. Any of that. In fact, he has never stopped being an angel at all, He is still an angel to this very day. With angel minions in the spiritual world and also planet earth people as his minions in this flesh and blood world where we live, serving him and worshipping him. And he is still a very powerful angel. God gave him the power and rulership to be the Prince of this world down here on planet earth for a certain amount of time. That Old Dragon is `Top Notch.` But, in a bad way, and just like he ever was.

          5. Kel: There are no angels up in God’s realm up in the Heavenly well-ordered realm where He exists, that were Once Good that are now fallen angels running around on this planet. The bad angels are still bad and were created Bad, although God tolerated them for awhile in that realm to go back and forth and to and fro on the planet earth.. Those fallen angels of which you speak are the children of God that are now in a fallen state, and flesh and blood, from what happened with Adam and Eve. Remember, Angel means messenger. The Angelic forces are both with God in his own heavenly realm, down here, largely unseen by most of us, as both Good and Bad angels, and angels are also spoken of as a potential/state that exists also within his people. However, the good angels still go back and forth and report in with God. The evil angels are banned now from going back and forth. And, there are also the Angels that were with God before mankind was ever created, before mankind was made when man was then later created crowned just a little below those particular angels in the hierarchy that God has created. All of this is their in the reading. There are legions and legions of angels in Heaven with God and other various types of Angels within the hierarchy even within all of that. One just has to reread. The children of God are also angels, messengers, that are now in a state of the fall. They are also called: The Kingdom of Heaven. This confusion, regarding various readings and types and statuses and definitions of angels and heaven and the fallen, etc. and the various realms and personas being discussed, is confusion that also plays perfectly into many of Lucifer’s pity plays: That he once was Good and Beautiful and he made a few little mistakes, like starting a geat war in Heaven against the Creator and other such inconvenient little activities where God is, etc. and thus he is now sadly and unfairly down here all the time. He is ONLY down here all the time now, because he is uncouth. And he whined too much: Just like when a site moderator gives a reader much tolerance. That reader never had control of the site, even if they wanted to have that control. And also that reader also constantly mocked and criticized the readers of the site over and over before the moderator. At some point the moderator will find such a reader tiresome for behaving over and over in such an irritating manner, whenever they were permitted on the site. At some point the Moderator says, this is enough. So such a reader is finally banned because of their own bad form, despite the pity plays such reader may later try to orchestrate on behalf of themselves to others, in an attempt to smear the moderator, and to garner respect for themselves, against their former Host. Like what Lucifer does. He wore out his welcome, so to speak. It’s nothing new. Quite simply, Lucifer got banned. He overplayed his hand with all of his constant blame shifting, and now he is down here all the time. One just has to reread. So, finally, he is not in a fallen state from once being in a state of being a Beautiful and Good Angel on the right hand side of God. Lucifer was from the beginning created by God to be an adversarial Angel and on the Left hand side of God. The name Satan also means, Adversary. Whew. So many lies are taught to people. Who will straighten all of this out? Unbelievable. Feel free anyone to take anything that I have written to any pastor and preacher and biblical scholar and show them and confront them. It should be an interesting experience. Enjoy.

          6. kel says:

            PSE, thank you for your interesting comments, I enjoyed reading the insight on Eve being tempted by the serpent the most. Regarding if you have become an enemy by telling your truth, I just want to say- not at all, friends always. 💕

          7. Violetta says:

            Adam wasn’t so heroic. He whined to God, “The woman YOU gave me did it.” Then Eve blames the serpent.

            And it turns into “Your Fault” from Into the Woods


          8. FYC says:

            The first recorded history of blame-shifting?

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AMEN to that, FYC.

          10. NarcAngel says:

            Haha. Good catch.

          11. Violetta says:

            FYC: Definitely.

            Followed by Cain’s “Who, me?” routine.

        3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          Kel: I enjoyed our conversation tremendously. 🙂 I rarely discuss these things.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Just wanna day that was all really good. Right up my alley.


      2. Witch says:

        If you read the Torah from the Jewish perspective you will find that Satan was actually working on behalf of god, not against god. His job was to work on behalf of god and test the loyalty of individual Jews.
        The new testament’s depiction of Satan as an enemy of god developed much later.

        Isaiah 45:7
        “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”

        1. kel says:

          Could Isaiah 45:7 be referring to God punishing Israel for rebelling against him?

          1. Witch says:

            Yes, but also confirming that god is the only one in control.
            Angels in Torah are pretty much extensions of god and operate according to god’s will.
            In Torah god creates both good and evil depending on what he is trying to achieve.
            I’m not religious. I’m just pointing out the contradictions between the old and new testaments.

  9. AR says:

    HG, since the transition to a narc was a gradual action as you wrote before, does it mean that you used to have emotional empathy when you were little boy?

    1. HG Tudor says:


  10. Kim e says:

    Hi HG,
    I am confused as to what the last sentence here means…

    This again is just part of the manipulation and is only done to enable the narcissist to exert control over the victim once again and ensure that the Prime Aims are met. Once that control is achieved (i.e. the escape is stopped) or another appliance is obtained to recruit the non-compliant/less compliant one – the supposed change in behaviour will end.

    …..or another appliance is obtained to recruit the non-compliant/less compliant one……
    What does that mean?


    1. HG Tudor says:

      It should read “replace”, not “recruit”. I have amended it.

      1. Dearest HG: Regarding your correction of your wording: `It should read “replace”, not “recruit”. I have amended it.`

        HG, I was reminded of an episode of the comedy, Seinfeld (have you ever watched, Seinfeld?), and the slacker George was finagling dates by showing various beautiful women, when he had the opportunity, pictures of his deceased fiance`. A photo of a beautiful woman. If I am not mistaken, the beautiful woman in the photo was unknown to him–he was faking it. The point was that In this episode, George was saying basically, that once other beautiful women thought you had dated seriously a beautiful woman already, you were vetted for them in their minds, and they would then think it was worthwhile to go ahead and go out with you. Even a slacker such as himself. So, he was recruiting beautiful women to date with that photo of a fake beautiful deceased fiance`. George was full of shenanigans. One of my favorite episodes of Seinfeld was when George was dating a woman that was incarcerated in Prison. He absolutely loved it. He would call her at times, put in some short visits, and then leave and all of that. And he had the relationship of his dreams, he said, with his freedom fully intact, while she lived the life of the incarcerated and while she eagerly awaited his visits and phone calls, etc. HG, I am reminded of your excellent and breakthrough article about : The Loneliness of the Long Distance Empath. Then one day she told him she was getting out of prison, or she broke out of prison, or something, but she was out of prison, and he absolutely hated it, and he was incredibly stressed out about her being around, and his loss of some of his freedom in the relationship, because not only was was she no longer in prison, but also, and even worse, she had entered the sphere of his other life, beyond the walls of the prison visits and he said his worlds were colliding, or something like that, and he was becoming frantic! I do not remember how that episode ended, but I do remember that it was a very funny episode.

        1. K says:

          Ha ha ha….George was losing control of his compartments (his worlds were colliding) and his stress was a manifestation of his perceived threat to control. That sitcom was a riot.

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            K. Hahahaha. I know that many women do have an attraction to men in prison. And seek them out, somehow. How in the world do they seek them out. And such women strive to have relationships with these incarcerated men and even go so far as to marry them. Maybe these women feel really appreciated by such imprisoned men, and the women STILL have a lot of control of their own time. And THEN sometimes the men manage to be released from prison and we can probably guess at what happens to many of those relationships, right? Yes, there are some top episodes of Seinfeld. Those are 2 of my favorite. Plus, I also like the episode when George was pretending to be disabled and he was going about in that wheelchair, at one of his jobs. George, Oh George. So many shenanigans.

          2. K says:

            Pen pal/romantic relationships with prison inmates are attractive to certain individuals, however, I think it’s very risky. Who knows what you are getting yourself into and, more often than not, prisoners will most likely be lessers.

            George’s shenanigans were a riot and Kramer was nuts. Two of my favorite episodes are: The Puffy Shirt and The Caddy episode: if the bra doesn’t fit, you must acquit.

          3. Lorelei says:

            K—correct—unless you aim for federal
            prisoners and you may catch a random mid-ranger!

          4. K says:

            yeah, like Bernie Madoff.

          5. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Dearest HG: Remember I posted to you about the episode of George using that photo of a fake (he never dated her) beautiful woman as his beautiful deceased fiance` to attract beautiful women??? Well, I jest not that, that I had to practically be as Alastor to find a clip of that episode for you. The problem I had researching was that the episode had none of my attempted search words. The Episode is called: The Forbidden City. How was I supposed to guess that title of the Episode?? Nevertheless, I searched and searched and then I almost gave up to search another day, and then I found it. Yay!!! HG, here is a clip for your convenience:

        2. kel says:

          My narc boss loves George Constanza , it’s a running joke with his inner circle who will affectionately refer to him as George. He even named their dog George. He’s nothing like George as he’s handsome and seductive and rich and powerful. It must be all the narc innuendos: “ It’s not a lie if you believe it “ and so on.

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Kel: You must love going to work with a boss like that. Good for you!

          2. kel says:

            PSE, I just left the office yesterday for a new company, and I already feel so much happier!

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Congratulations on your new position.

          4. kel says:

            Thank you NA!

        3. Violetta says:

          The best was when he did everything backwards–told women he was unemployed and lived with his parents. One woman was literally dragged away from him, as he stood there in the windbreaker he had donned as part of his new Bad Boy image. Elaine ruined it by telling her he was really a nice guy.

          $#1+, *I* would have dated him then!

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Violetta: LOL. I remember that one. Before I check your clip, If I remember correctly, he surmised that since everythng he did was basically wrong, he was going to perform the opposite of his initial impulses. Great Episode. I will check later to see how close my memory is to the clip.

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Violetta, I found a clip about when George decides to do the opposite of his usual behaviour…to try to more successful. I found a clip easily this time, because this episode has The Opposite in the title. Here is a clip from youtube: click here>

        4. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          Dearest HG and K: Here is a very short 50 second clip where George discusses his early reasoning on dating that female convict. The clip is from Youtube right here>.

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha….thanks for the laugh!

        5. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          1) K. I could not find a video clip, but here is small part of the script regarding Celia, the prison girlfriend. But, this does not cover the part where George was panicking. Anyway, so, Celia, the prison girlfriend, may get paroled and she tells George and George is upset, because he does not want a normal relationship: GEORGE (sadly): It’s over, Jerry. She’s gettin’ out.

          JERRY: Ah, I’m so sorry.

          GEORGE: She’s been locked up for two years. She’s gonna want to make up for lost time. Dinners. Movies. Talking…

          JERRY: In other words, a normal relationship.

          GEORGE: And that’s no good. I’ve tried it straight, Jerry. We’ve all seen the results. For me, sick is the only way to go.

          JERRY: Well, she’ll still be an ex-con.

          GEORGE: It’s not the same.

          JERRY: Hey, if you two are meant to be together…I’m sure the cops’ll pick her up on something. 2) K. Then George subtle smears Celia, the Prison girlfriend, when he speaks to the Warden Betsey for Celia, as a character reference, because George wants Celia in prison because that is the relationship he wants with her, thus the smear: New scene – George in Betsy’s office at the prison.

          BETSY: George, Celia has listed you as a character reference. Whatever you can tell us would certainly be helpful in her getting paroled.

          GEORGE: Well, anything I can do to help, um…she’s a wonderful girl. Very smart. Very…crafty.

          BETSY: Does she have any plans after she’s released?

          GEORGE: Plans. Schemes. She keeps talking about getting back together with her old friends – “the gang,” as she likes to call them, you know. Yeah, they’re hatching something, you can count on that.
          3) K. Then Celia does not get parole, of course, with George saying she is crafty and has schemes and wants to get back with the old `gang,` etc. So, then Celia busts out of Prison somehow: GEORGE: Celia broke out of prison. I’m sitting in my home, she shows up at the door!

          JERRY: Oh my God! The break-out/pop-in!

          GEORGE: Yeah. Hey Jerry, listen to this. I discovered something even better than conjugal visit sex. Fugitive sex! Now, it’s like everytime –

          JERRY (interrupts): George, this is a little too much for me – escaped convicts, fugitive sex…I got a cockfight to focus on. 4) K. At end, the authorities catch up to and re-arrest Celia.

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha…fugitive sex and a cockfight to focus on. I really should rewatch Seinfeld; I think it’s streaming on Hulu.

  11. BL says:

    I hope you don’t take offense to this question, but I’ve been wondering for some time, since you are quite aware of what you are and what you are doing, do you ever wish you could change, or do you like being the way you are? I ask out of curiosity, not malice.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No offence taken.

      No, there is no need for me to change.

      1. Witch says:

        There is a difference between need and desire.
        Do you ever wish you could change?
        Do you like the way you are?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No, why would I need to?
          I have an excellent conceit of myself.

          1. Pati says:

            HG as,long as feel good about yourself thats all that matters. Who are we to tell you otherwise . It was just a question that if you were willing to make a few adjustments on your behaviour
            But then again if you werent a N then I wouldn’t be here typing a comment and learning so thank you for that part.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Adjustments. I have done so. Wholesale change? Unnecessary.

          3. Pati says:

            Okie dokie thanks for your honesty HG.

          4. Witch says:

            You did say narcissists are never really happy or content with anything, meaning neither are you.. that might lead to a desire to change.
            It would also mean that you would no longer be tormented by the creature if you could change

          5. HG Tudor says:

            I said we don’t do happiness. That’s different from being happy or unhappy. The torment of the creature varies by school.

          6. Pati says:

            I work for my husband ,I just terminated 5 different job sites today because my husband told me to send the email. He said he didnt want to do it anymore and that he was paying out too much . All because one of his workers was smearing him. HG does this make sense ?
            How could you do a quick rational decision so fast . I am in shock

          7. Witch says:

            Different how?
            Of course fuel gives you a high and suppresses the creature but would you say it makes you happy?
            When you say the torment of the creature defers by school, do you mean the torment is worse for the lesser narcs or a different kind or torment?

          8. HG Tudor says:

            We do not do happy, as has been explained elsewhere. Unaware narcissists will believe they are happy because they take their cues from society and do so to fit in.
            The torment is worse for those whose fuel garnering and assertion of control is less effective.

          9. Witch says:

            Thank you HG
            I understand that the fuel suppresses the torment. However would say that the torment is a con (a negative) to being a narcissist?

      2. Mary Robinson says:

        They say narcs are among the happiest of people.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          We do not do happy. It is the outward manifestation of fuel, mistakenly seen as happiness.

          1. Pati says:

            But you do laugh ,smile and joke around ,isnt that an emotion? Or perceived as happiness ?

          2. K says:

            This is a really good article and I think it will answer your question(s).


          3. Pati says:

            Awesome thank you K.💓

          4. K says:

            My pleasure Pati!

      3. Pati says:

        HG, wanted though ?
        I know.that.lessers and midrangers cannot.change since.their.defence mechanism wont allow it .because they dont.know what they are) .But Greaters can. Can true?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Change? In what way?

          1. Pati says:

            HG you are a very intelligent man and I think that if you want to change you can .you have said you have altered your behaviour in some way since you have been in therapy Perhaps SM is the one for you . My N has been with me for 23 years so you can do it.

          2. Violetta says:

            Question is, why would he want to?

          3. K says:


  12. LambToLion says:

    As depressing as that was to read, I know in my heart you’re right. He’ll never change. After decades of dealing with this shit, I am physically and emotionally in tatters.
    My Narc has sucked me dry , I have nothing left to give him.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Good, then there is nothing more to give to him, go no contact.

      1. LambToLion says:

        I can’t , HG . We’re married and I’m not prepared to let him go.
        I have always known it wasn’t anything I ever did . I’ve been a model wife. I know it wouldn’t matter who he’s with, he’ll do it to anyone.
        I’m still trying to come to grips with his treatment of me, and grieving the loss of something that was never real ??
        Raising a family with this man meant nothing to him. He’s taken decades of my life and I hate him for it . It’s a tough pill to swallow.
        My advice to anyone involved with a Narc reading this, Don’t waste years of your life with them, RUN , and find someone who you don’t need to “ figure out “ . I wish I had found this blog many years ago…. leaving would have been easier. My Narc has stolen the best part of my life from me.

        1. MB says:

          LTL, this is the position my mother finds herself in. Married to two different Narcissists over the span of 50 years. I tell her he’s a narc but what is there to do now at her age?

          1. LambToLion says:

            What does your Mother say when you tell her hes a Narc ? You should send her here to this blog so she can start reading. Surely she will see her husband in HG’s posts . I couldn’t believe how shockingly accurate HG is with every post he writes.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            That’s because I know my kind better than anybody else. It’s a win for you to be in this place and to have access to me.

          3. Lorelei says:

            HG—I’m really increasingly amazed at times at how well you know this subject. It’s really interesting how much information you’ve been able to convey. It really alarms me in many ways—yet on the same hand it’s comforting to know they have a scent.

          4. MB says:

            LTL, my mother is in denial that her current husband is a narcissist. She has no problem accepting that my father is. She gives me examples of why the current one is not a narcissist, but they make no sense. Even if she did the ND and HG told her he was, I think she’s too ensnared at this point to accept it.

          5. Lorelei says:

            MB—this simply is a topic that can’t be easily doled out to anyone. They have to want to seek it out. I am almost disgusted and somewhat uncomfortable repeating what someone told me. Here is a classic interpretation.. Her husband looked at her one day while they were preparing to be intimate. He said, (this disturbs me)—“Your hole just isn’t the same after the kids.” He got up, walked out and she stayed 10 more years during which he had affairs, threw her in the ground to wrestle a phone away he didn’t want her to see, issued silent treatments..
            Her interpretation—he’s just a nice guy that fell out of love. He loves his kids. (Infrequently sees them) He never had sex with or touched her again after that comment—for ten years!!
            People can’t accept the reality because it’s so seemingly diabolical that it seems almost nuts that narcissists fit in so well. Or we’ve gotten used to excusing certain deviant behaviors on stress, a moment of unkindness, etc. NO
            man would say such a thing if he had any empathy—period—narc detector done. I was really confused re, my fathers several
            emotional episodes. It took awhile to realize they were tears generated for himself. It’s really messed up. Had my life not turned to hell I never would do any of this. There would be no motivation.

          6. MB says:

            Lorelei, it certainly isn’t something anybody can do for you. Like you stated, you have to be the one to say “enough”. There are as many flavors of abusive behavior as there are Narcissists. I’m glad I don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. I do know I never see her or talk to her unless he’s out of town on a trip alone. She is very different when she is in his presence vs out of the vicinity/earshot of him. My mother isn’t free and that is what bothers me. If I thought it was what she wants, that would be one thing, but something just isn’t right.

          7. Lorelei says:

            I was different with other people vs. around my ex too. It was like he was tuned in to see what he could berate me for so it was easier
            to be quiet or simply not engage with anyone. The negative comments were even somewhat subtle—like little bombs—just enough to question if maybe I misinterpreted the situation. It still amazes me that he gets away unscathed 100%—there is no punishment for him because they blame shift and deflect any and all responsibility. It’s a brilliant disorder. He does not realize how he appears though—think about it. He is viewed as an imbecile basically because I’m fortunate enough to have found this material in time. Only his small circle really believes him. I also wonder if someone within the circle questions him too. (It’s happened before I have found out)
            I believe that even his own attorney thinks he’s an idiot! I’m not supposed to know this—but it was hinted at. The children’s doctor, same. And how is it that since I’m crazy he hasn’t tried to protect the children, the public?? How is it the kids are with me more? These pathetic insults are hurled en masse yet there is no action. Be assured if he were “crazy” and “unstable” there would be action. So, yes—something clearly isn’t right or you wouldn’t feel as such. Healthy people don’t put off a vibe of “not right.” Imagine defending a man who referred to my friend as basically “a hole” (to fuck)?! She defends a man who said that to her and lived ten more years with her never touching her—nearly beating her over not taking a phone from his grip! Holy fuck—I’ve never “covered” for my ex thank goodness out of a delusional reality but it’s what happens. So, when her ex goes to date she is actually the sort of person that is going to portray how he’s a good date and it was an amicable divorce. Awe he fell out of love..
            Someone like me comes along. I meet this seemingly nice guy. No one I’m attracted to after a reasonable period of time is likely to be a flagrant dumbass so they cover, offer stories from their perspective.. Wow, even the ex gives him a thumbs up! See how easy it is to be fooled even after these sorts of forums?? Your mom probably vetted him to the best of her knowledge as well. She may have some mortification over the entire situation (the portion she is aware of) on some level and/or be afraid to be alone.

          8. FYC says:

            MB, I am sorry to hear this. It may also be that she prefers denial at present. She may feel “at a certain age” that there are, or will be, no other options. This is not true, but often reinforced by others and society in general. She is worth more. She can have more. Others tend to believe what we do about ourselves. So perhaps, reinforce her inherent worth so she knows she is deserving of all good things in life, and worthy of a healthy, supportive relationship. Wishing her a brighter future.

          9. MB says:

            Thank you FYC. Like most empathic people, she tends to help others more than herself. She knows I’m here to help with my HGTU education if she needs me.

          10. FYC says:

            Often true, MB, and I am sure you are a great comfort and support for her.

          11. FYC says:

            So well said, Lorelei. And worse still is when these people, who have endured so much for so long, sum up the courage to go to a therapist only to be told they should try harder; or they read any one of the tired and incorrect tropes about “love” online and decide to stay, when love was never part of the picture. Why does society in general pressure people to stay in relationships regardless of obviously unacceptable behaviors? Why is apathetic and cruel behavior dismissed, or excuses made for that which there is no excuse? It really chaps my hide. I do agree with you Lorelei, one cannot make another see that which they refuse to see. It’s too bad pain is the greatest human motivator. It would be far better if logic were.

          12. Lorelei says:

            Yes indeed FYC!! I wish it were more mainstream yet it can only be grasped when it has to be in many cases. Think about it—the therapist I went to truly believes she has a patent on this. Truly. I’m beyond jaded—I have excellent medical coverage but it feels like, “why bother” seeing anyone because it’s a useless waste of time. My family and friends don’t get the depths of destabilization that this has mingled with. (One brother says my ex and I just have to learn to talk!) I have no communication deficit that renders an abusive thrust to the other party! Well, maybe a few friends do perhaps mostly get it in terms of what happened but they can’t understand the amount of ongoing work so I don’t discuss it anymore. They keep trying to impose their views of dating or having a one night stand (filthy!!) as moving on—I am moving on but not in their way. I am more and more interested in many things. It’ll be interesting to see where the chips fall in another year. I’m willing to bet sans some catastrophe of life that in a year “better” can be really good if I pay attention to my own intuition. Can you imagine suggesting to a close friend to sleep around? Seriously? Holy shit that’s what is insane. Dirty, dangerous, emotionally bankrupt behavior. Yet, people think it’s logical from their view. Dr. Phil even gives better advice from the snippets I’ve seen!

          13. FYC says:

            Indeed Lorelei. But, something tells me you will be just fine, or far better than fine!

        2. NarcAngel says:


          No, he hasn’t stolen the best part of your life. The best part will be when you leave him and start to live fully, so it is yet to come. You just don’t want to believe that because it will mean changing things and change is scary, but the real fear should be letting the minutes in your life tick out with someone who doesn’t allow you to really live the way that you want to, and deserve to, for their own selfish gain.

          1. Gypsy Heart says:


            You are absolutely right! The best years are yet to come. I went through the same thing, living decades with my narc husband. I could not even fathom starting over on my own. But I did it, even though it was emotionally and financially rough. I also have a child with him. Now the dreams that I envision for myself of the life I want outshine anything I could have had with him. My younger years may be gone, but the golden years are looking promising.


            It can be this way for you too. Believe in yourself and your ability to make a better life for yourself. I saw this with my mom also. It was so amazing to see the light come back into her eyes. She was living life again instead of just existing. You are in the right place to make it happen. I believe in you!

          2. FYC says:

            I completely agree NA. I would also say that people can only take what we are willing to give. No one can steal anything without our participation. I say this not as a criticism whatsoever, but to remind anyone who is beaten down in spirit, abused, and who’s hope and kindness have taken advantage of, that they have the power, they can stop the abuse and reclaim and transform their lives. No one knows how much life they have left, but if we knew we only had a week left of life, how many of us would choose to stay in abuse?

            LTL, it is never too late.Take the steps you need to free yourself and live your life on your terms. You are worth it. Every day is worth it. Once free, you will once again experience life with a whole heart and a lighter step. Wishing you the very best.

          3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear NarcAngel,
            Bang on, perfect answer, I totally agree “wise” NAngel 🦉

            Dear LTL,
            Yes…. “you can” precious … no such words as “I can’t”…there’s always a way out
            Why are you not prepared to let him go ?

            Mr Tudor will help you to get out n stay out, plus you have all our support
            We’ve all been in tatters lovely one, so you are not alone there
            I am now the best version of myself I’ve ever been … and getting better
            This is where your new journey and the new you begins …… let him go
            With hearfelt wishes
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        3. K says:

          Please, stay here and keep reading until you are ready to let go and I wish I found narcsite years ago, as well.

          1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            K. Me too. I wish I had found Narciste when I was around 12 years old, even if to apply to friends and frenemies, at that time and onwards. Oh well. Better late than never.

          2. K says:

            No kidding! Parents, siblings, cousins, all relatives! Neighbors, nuns, priests, friends…it’s never ending.

            I like to think that narsite is the silver lining for many of us here.

          3. Lorelei says:

            K—silver lining yes. It would have saved me incredible misery had HG been doing this sooner but he wasn’t (nor was anyone really) before this past few years. I’m so fortunate I saw the name keep popping up in those useless FB groups last year. While they were basically worthless groups—mostly—it led here. I remember thinking about what was wrong 100 times and couldn’t even accept more than “asshole” most days. I think about my mother and the absolute life sucking hell she doesn’t even know she lived for years due to my father. She was not a good mother. She was too worn out—berated constantly, accused of an affair, no emotional support, bizarre enlistment into my fathers crazy world of magical thinking. It’s generational—her mother before her.

          4. K says:

            Years and years of misery for you, me, everyone here and millions of others around the world. The feedback from FB groups and, those that use therapists, has been mostly negative and I pity those that are stuck in those situations. I was very fortunate to find narcsite, after a little less than a month, on YouTube. It is generational and we have to keep spreading the word about NPD so we can help alleviate the misery for others.

            Sorry about your mother, she deserved better. We all did.

          5. Lorelei says:

            She’s had a more peaceful life since he’s been dead—it’s just something she’s unaware of. The way it heats up, its insidious. You then simmer, then boil, then simmer again. The heat finally left and she’s failed to correlate it all—I see it now. I know why she failed to attend to me and was wrapped up in exhaustion. I’m never angry toward her—it’s a sadness that she never got away. Anyway—it’s time for bed in my world right now.

          6. K says:

            Oooooh….narcsite has been painted black! Happy Halloween everyone and goodnight.

            It’s the sadness of never getting away; the loss of never knowing that it was possible to escape. It was denied to her and so many others.

        4. Pati says:

          It has stolen 23 years from me married to this man and having kids. I can relate to you so very much. I wish I would have found this blog long time ago
          I wish you the best of luck. Its a constant struggle and battle living with them on s day to day basis.

          1. Gypsy Heart says:

            Same here Pati. 27 years of my life, gone. Luckily I only had one kid with my narc husband ( I tried to get pregnant again, but it never happened). It’s too late to wonder what might have been, but it’s never too late to start over and contemplate what will be. I wish the best to all of those still struggling to get out.

          2. Pati says:

            Gypsy heart I feel for you honest .27 years OMG!
            You didnt get pregnant again for a reason.
            Did you escape him?
            Thank you so much for giving me confidence.
            Hugs xoxo

        5. WhoCares says:


          If you gave that much to him; you owe it to yourself to seek freedom. You deserve it.

          You’ve certainly been offered some encouraging words and you’ve found the best resource to aid you towards achieving freedom.

          I didn’t spend as much time as you have, being in the formal relationship but I did exit it with nearly nothing. I am not going to suggest that it is easy – but it is definitely worth it.

          At the very least, I hope you take K’s advice and keep reading here and posting.

          All the best to you 💙

        6. seballerina says:

          LambToLion, you might consider borrowing a page from the narcs. They have the ability to rewrite history and see what they want to see regardless of what is actual. It is only from one POV that you wasted your life with him. From another POV, you tried something impossible, and I’m sure have developed amazing qualities and traits along that way that you wouldn’t have otherwise, and now it is time to give up this game and recover yourself and maybe find someone to dazzle with your brilliance now. Rewrite your story from wasted and broken heart to something else. Rewrite history, too, if you need to. It doesn’t matter what the truth is to him, and our devotion to the truth just gets us hurt. Often times the truth isn’t “The Truth,” it is just a point of view. Anyway, you can stay or go, but staying will make it much more difficult to break the habits of behavior that have caused you to become drained. It only takes 28 days to break a habit, btw. Retraining your thinking takes longer, but it is all doable. Create a life for yourself, though, regardless of whether you stay or go. You need that.

        7. Witch says:

          I felt similarly when I was with partner 1. Met him when I was 16 and was with him for 9 years.
          I felt so guilty for not wanting to be with him anymore that I allowed it to drag on.
          I also felt like I lost a good chunk of my youth being him.
          My life got so much better when it ended.
          The grief became easier to cope with and I’m so much more happier than I’ve ever been.
          The world is not flat lamb, you will not fall of edge by seeking more for yourself.
          You only have this life, make the most of it.

        8. Lorelei says:

          Lamb—I re-read your comment and the part about it having not been real is tough to swallow. It cheapens our more vivid memories. I’ve used the statement “not real”
          as well. I am beginning to prefer to think of them simply as functioning with an alternate currency, and the experience we both have is internalized and expressed differently. My father was not an alien, he was real. He was floridly abusive at times, and this was very real. He was very academically bright (top of his class)—he taught me things. This was real. My brothers have zero clue I’ve connected him to my path—they have no idea. I’ll not cheapen it for them or my mother. They speak of him often—his photo is all over the tiny home they raised us all in. (My dad would never move—part of his control tactic no doubt..)
          My first husband was a real person who caused tremendous sadness to kind and genuine people when he killed himself by drink. He was real, yet he certainly fits the profile of a mid-range narcissist. My second husband—I find him deplorable and he is indeed real. He walks, talks, breathes (sadly but he does) and I can’t rob his children of the naive portrayal they have. He doesn’t abuse them per se—but one day they can put their puzzle pieces together just as I am. HG is real. I can’t cheapen the gifts he gives here. I’m sure he puts his pants on the same way I do. It’s just really more about learning who to give the energy you have to—right now it’s to me and my children. I was rendered incapable before and it’s 75% better. So, you may not be prepared to leave, so prepare to get healthy & strong and don’t overwhelm with the goal as you interpret it now (as leaving) which is exasperating to contemplate as you’ve been sucked dry. I hope this makes sense.

          1. Lambtolion says:

            I understand what you’re saying. Thank you for that!

          2. Lorelei says:

            Lamb—you are welcome. Basically it’s like getting in shape. If you weigh 300 lbs it’s nice to aim for wearing a bikini but it’s the incremental goals that are achievable and provide short term successes to keep going. For instance—I got the co-parenting package in the spring. Listened yes. I’m listening now again as I’ve got time to re-visit and boxes are checked off that seemed more challenging before. (Or impossible) I’m in a one piece—closer to the bikini I think. Frankly I’m maybe in a bikini with a sheer cover as things that really “I can’t” (you don’t get it HG—you are a moron and just don’t get it!) ARE really achieved. He’d say you don’t have to talk to these people a hundred ways on here. I’m thinking but but but.. But what? I’ll never speak to my ex again. Never—Not under any circumstance Lamb. He requires an interpreter when it comes to me. His mother is a close second. I only communicated a few weeks ago via text with her because of a medical situation she was mis-managing with my daughter who was frantically texting me. She knows to follow my direction. She’s also not overtly abusive to me—just a brain washed empath ensnared by her son (my ex) and a husband who is a joke. (She is passive aggressive by proxy because of her need to submit to their over-arching theme toward me though) I am not talking to abusers—period. Getting there—a real bitch because it’s in my nature to act against my interests.

        9. Violetta says:


          I spent more years mourning the couldabeen of my flirt-&-hurt work narc than I actually spent in his presence. I knew I was throwing good money (or time) after bad, but I just couldn’t seem to stop the cycle. Friends who told me I was letting him “live rent-free in my head” just made me more frustrated. It diminished somewhat when I had to deal with new abuse, like horrible bosses, but it didn’t go away entirely. I’d think it was gone, I was over him at last, I’d know logically that he could and would have made me ten times more miserable had we been together, but then it would hurt like it just happened, and I went all Gigi-esque: “I’d rather be miserable with than without you.” I even knew that if we’d married and had kids, they’d have cursed ME for being comparatively functional and marrying him anyway, because I should know better. I knew logically it was a near escape, but it FELT like a failure.

          Since I started reading this site, it has not hurt. Every now and then I’ll think about him, like my tongue testing a sore tooth, but it isn’t sore. Even the time I spent mourning him. I can’t say, “well you could’ve met someone else if you hadn’t been so addicted to him,” because I DID date other guys, but my heart wasn’t in it.

          I still worry far too much about what former classmates or co-workers would think of me if they found out I haven’t always been successful, but where he’s concerned, I don’t have two Fs to give. He can think I eat babies for breakfast, for all I care.

          I’m glad it finally happened, even if it took way longer than I wish because I didn’t have an HG to read when it was going on, or even when I was first struggling to recover.

          It ain’t over til it’s over. If you’re still breathing, there is time.

          1. LambtoLion says:

            I’m glad you didn’t marry your Narc . It could have been so much worse.
            I hope someday we can all erase the narcs from our memories.

          2. Violetta says:

            And if we do happen to remember them, it’ll be like remembering Swine Flu. It’s horrible and can kill people, but if it didn’t kill you, you are now immune, at least to that particular strain.

          3. Kim e says:

            Violetta. We are never immune to any of the strains. Just now have knowledge. One strain can manifest itself in different ways so always susceptible. Use knowledge like an antibiotic. If you feel the infection starting apply the antibiotics to it.

          4. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            Violetta: I can not believe it. I was like you as you said here: [`I spent more years mourning the couldabeen of my flirt-&-hurt work narc than I actually spent in his presence. I knew I was throwing good money (or time) after bad, but I just couldn’t seem to stop the cycle.`] Violetta, Violetta, Violetta, I completely understand. Some do not understand the grief of an Non Intimate Partner Secondary Source, like I was, when she becomes addicted to the Narcissist, like I became. I think you understand my grief and hurt. Violetta, and the Narc had 4 female Lieutenants that constanlty maligned me to him and pushed me away from him. That was so painful for me, and only because they were jealous and envious of me, over nothing. I doubt if I ever would have become an intimate source with him, but they were making sure it would not happen. But, now that I have been on Narcsite, I know now that I could have become an NIPSS, depending on the shifting sands in his fuel matrix, but it was absolutely great and a gift that I did not know that for those 3 years that I endured all the madness, because maybe I would have pushed back even more against the blockade put up against me by his 4 jealous and malign Lieutenants. They unintentionally did me a great favor, for pushing me back so much. It was a bizarre situation, and finally I fell ill over it all and came to Narcsite, and I found out where every one of them were positioned in that kooky fuel matrix in which I had become entangled, including my own position, and I felt horrified about it all, and I left them all, posthaste. It was either them or, my health, me. I chose me. Around 6 or so months ago. I have not seen him or them in six months. I do not look at my Facebook Page. It probably has a lot of messages, but now It has probably cooled down. One day when I am much better, I may go through and get the names and phone numbers of certain people and then actually close the page completely down. But, I am not ready to look at that FB page any time soon I am sure I still have some open wounds. Photos can kill.

          5. Violetta says:

            Kim e: the problem is the flu is constantly mutating, so immunity to one strain doesn’t make the immune to one only slightly different.

            So I feel pretty immune to my flirt-&-hurt narc, but I wouldn’t go anywhere that I’d be likely to run into him, or even communicate with him online. It’s like the flu vaccine: I get it every year, but I still try to avoid people who have the flu. Why deliberately expose yourself to a possibly lethal disease?

          6. Kim e says:

            I was more referring to new N’s that cross our path’s. We know what is up with the old ones and how they operate. The new ones might be just a little bit different and by the time we have figured it out, we are ensnared again.
            Just be careful out there.
            For some reason, I feel very threatened today……like my fight or flight has been triggered. Cant point my finger on it. Staying close to home this weekend……………..

          7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dear Kim e,
            I can resonate with what you say
            Our “dear old friend’s” …. daughter…. (I haven’t had a lot to do with her for many years, until now) has just ” gaslighted ” me twice in succession …..unbelievable!!! She shown her true colours
            Mr Bubbles witnessed both occasions
            She accused me of saying something I never said and being somewhere I wasn’t …..she’s on my case big time because of our friendship with her dad (we are his best n closest friends)
            She’s barely had time for him and now all of a sudden is acting the caring protective loving daughter
            She’s lied and exaggerated about his mental wellness to fast track his placement in age care because he’s become a nuisance and a burden to her (he interferes with her travel plans and social life)
            She’s taken complete control and coerced him (when he just got out of hospital) to sign multiple legal documents including all his finances
            She’s lied about him ever going back to his place and is now getting rid of all his personal possessions without his consent
            Our “dear old friend” is petrified of her and said she’s evil to do what she did to him
            He was in tears when we visited him and was too scared to come out with us for a coffee in case she dropped in and he wasn’t there
            I know he has rights and it’s elder abuse, he has short term memory loss but they are claiming dementia and can’t be left alone
            The doctor who assigned him has an investment in the facility which has many vacancies
            I feel our hands are tied as it’s all been signed sealed and completed by his own blood
            This man was once a model, an artist, 3 medal Olympian winner, performances in the Military Tattoo, achievements on the football field and all he has now are the clothes on his back ..disgusting n despicable to what’s been done to him is an understatement
            If I hadn’t discovered Mr Tudor, I wouldn’t know what I am dealing with
            Always be prepared, you just never know, when out of nowhere a narc rears their ugly head ….. it’s never ending, however, I was able to firmly stand my ground, thanks to Mr Tudor
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  13. LK says:

    This is spot on! Thank you. The moment I accepted there was never going to be any change was the moment I lost hope. I severly malfunctioned after that.

  14. Emextraordinaire says:

    Ugggg, sigh. Hmmmph.
    You have rendered me speechless.

  15. AR says:

    Best of luck to him with his new appliances!

  16. Pingback: The Golden Rules of Freedom : No. 3 ⋆ NarcTopia

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