They Will Not Believe You



Go on then, tell them all what has happened to you? Go on, here, take my phone and ring my parents, my family and my friends. Ring my colleagues too. Telephone the golf club in fact why don’t you take out an advertisement in a local, no, make it a national newspaper and tell everybody about how badly you have been treated?

Climb on the roof and shout it to the neighbourhood, tell everyone who calls at our door and bellow it to strangers as they walk past. Do it, go on, tell them about. Announce it, broadcast it, transmit it, send it out by mail, e-mail ,message and radio signal. Have it blaring from the radio, repeatedly playing on television, hell I will even let you strap a message to a flock of pigeons and you can let them deliver the news that way. Scrawl how badly you have been treated by me on a piece of paper and wrap it around a brick and hurl it through the window at the police station. Scream it long and loud until you are hoarse. Go on, tell them, tell them all.

Tell my parents about their successful son who has studied hard, achieved brilliant results and now excels at work about what I do? Why don’t you gather all my friends around here and announce to them what a bastard I am? I am sure they will be intrigued to listen to you saying that about their loyal and dependable friend who always makes time for them and has helped them out in repeated ways through his largesse and influence.

Pop next door and bang on their front door, explain to them with your wild eyes and even wilder hair what has really been happening? After all, I only every show them friendship and politeness don’t I? I don’t think they have heard me shouting at you (I wait until they are away before I raise my voice) but I know they have heard you ranting and bawling.

Go to the local shopping parade and mention to the pleasant lady at the bakery what I really get up to behind closed doors. I am sure she will love to hear you tell her all about the charming man who is her best customer and has arranged for her to supply the restaurant of two of my friends.

Call my brother and give him chapter and verse. Oh you can’t because he won’t answer the ‘phone to you anymore will he? I know, head down to the gym and see if you can interest any of the regulars with a hysterical rant about the chap who they all say hello to and who works out quietly and regularly. Type out a memo for my colleagues and circulate it to them. I am sure they will be interested to read all about their boss who holds the keys to their futures.

Declare it to the group I attend football with, they will want to know all about what I do won’t they? What’s that? These are all my people. At last you have recognised the truth of the matter in between your vile outbursts and hateful comments. I know then, ring up your sister and see what she has to say, mind you, I daresay you won’t want to give her the satisfaction after the way she came on to me would you?

Tell your friends all about it. Oh wait, they are now my friends and all they have ever seen is how happy I have made you, the gifts, the trips, the presents and the love. What about the vicar? He will listen to you I am sure. It is what he does after all although what he will make of such slander against a regular attendee at his sermons and generous charity donor remains to be seen.

Do it, grab a loudspeaker, create a banner, haul a message behind an aeroplane and write it in the sand on the beach. Do it in this frenzied manner with words spilling from your twisted mouth, a word salad which makes no sense. I am sure the staccato way you spit out your accusations will be well-received.

Make sure they look deep into your crazy eyes when you are talking to them, I want them to see who they are really dealing with. Tell your father will you? Ha, he has put up with this for years and was glad to see you leave home, he told me himself. He knows what a drama queen you are and as for your mother well she hates confrontation and she adores me since she knows just how much I have done for you.

Go on, beat your tiny fists about that façade, see if you can punch some holes in it although I know you will not be able to. Shout and stamp and holler all you like. I will enjoy watching you do that and there will be no favourable outcome for you. You are the crazy one and you are trying to unseat the stable, rational, dependable and ultimately far more likeable me.

But you keep trying, it amuses and fuels me as your bloodied hands slap against the façade with no effect and your voice becomes no more than a rasp. I will watch as the hope fades in your eyes to be replaced by fear and incomprehension. Keep trying though, keep going and reinforce what I have already indoctrinated them to believe.

They believe me.

They won’t believe you.

94 thoughts on “They Will Not Believe You

  1. Kris says:

    It isn’t about “belief” it is about “care”. The Narc tries to make others care more about them, then you. Since they care more about the Narc now(or did before you met the Narc), unless they are a truly special and rare person, they won’t care.

    People bestow “care”, for different reasons, ranging from status, looks, or utility(how useful a person is to them, either materially, emotionally, physically, or mentally).

    Meaning, because they “care” about the Narc, they will refuse to believe it to protect themselves/ego(or whatever benefit they receive from the Narc), or simply don’t care what the Narc has done to you. Narc’s work subtly to cause others to both de-empathize with the target, and develop an inability to empathize with the target/victim.

    The reality is, most people, “aren’t good people”. Times like these, tell you who the real gem’s in your life are. If you don’t have any gem’s, then as you discard the Narc, walk away from all of them(flying monkeys). Sooner or later, they might come to their senses(usually after the Narc burned them, or is no longer useful to them), forgive, but never forget and remain distant.

  2. Kristin says:

    Your experience has absolutely helped me and others. Thanks for being so supportive of everyone and for sharing. You are smart and with the best. HG will assure you will not get entangled again. Have a great week! xoxo

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      Thank you for that wonderful encouragement again, Kristin <3 I saw your comment to Leigh on another post and it was so reassuring to read. It's important to feel understood and accepted. If I have been able to help others with my sharing it's only because I've had the benefit of the same xox

      It is good to know HG is here to assure we beat the narcissist and I'm far better off since arriving here.

      Thanks to everyone for their sharing and hope you have a good week, too, Kristin xox

      1. Kristin says:


  3. A Victor says:

    Well, the one good thing about finding out that my mother fits all of this is that my mind is off the narc I originally came here for, as if he never even existed. What a silver lining, geez. And now I also consider my ex-husband, though he’s also out of my life. It would be interesting to know, he would be an entirely different flavor for sure. It is fascinating how I can now see others who have come and gone in my life, both narcissists and empaths.

    1. Kristin says:

      A Victor,
      I’m sorry about your father and the struggles you are facing. It is wonderful that you are here and I hope that if helps with what you are going through in some way.

      1. A Victor says:

        Kristin, thank you for your kind and supportive words. It does help immensely to be here, I am finally able to put together pieces of a lifelong puzzle. I am thankful for every one of you that understands as well, I didn’t know there was such a community, one that really gets it, until I arrived, it’s like a breath of fresh air. And I thank you all for that.

  4. Kristin says:

    Well said and I appreciate it. As you mentioned, people mean well and want to help but when dealing with narcs they do not have a clear understanding of what it is like. I will learn from you and stay firm because we know the truth, what we are dealing with and what to do, thanks to HG. When a friend of mine remained hopeful that my marriage could be saved I had to kindly rebuff her well wishes and give her a dose of HG logic. Look how we have all been damaged by narcs and the long, arduous process it has taken us to work through the pain and we have lived it. It is all about educating ourselves and those that we are close to.

  5. Kristin says:

    Thank you for your kind words. “I’m not sure that will be more difficult than where you are now, though.” I think you are right and I needed to hear that, my mother has said something similar. I know it will be difficult but it will also be a relief because I will not be living in fear of him anymore, I will not have to put up a facade and play the role of the good wife just to keep the peace and my sanity. The thought of moving forward from all I have known for over 29 years stops me in my tracks at times but HG is helping and will get me to the finish line.
    Thank you again for your support. 🥰

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      I’m so glad HG is helping you prepare to move forward, Kristin, and only you know how big a step that is. It’s not always easy to do things even when we know they will benefit us, but necessity is the mother of invention as they say. We manage to find ways and strengths and purpose in doing what we need to do.

      My marriage was of the much more short lived variety, and I initially separated from my husband when I was 5 months pregnant with our third child. I could not believe the freedom I achieved in terms of being able to enjoy that pregnancy without concern for him and being able to make it what I wanted it to be. It was like I had come out from under a dark cloud and I could be myself again. Unfortunately, my mother was another dark cloud who appeared on my horizon at the same time. She forced me back to him in the end.

      It didn’t last long after that, but I got my taste of freedom and it was sweet. I hope you get the opportunity to taste freedom soon xox

      1. Kristin says:

        You were very brave, I cannot imagine leaving during a pregnancy and your third one at that. Despite your mother pushing you back to him, you got a taste of freedom, even for a short time and I am happy that you were eventually able to leave. Thank you for sharing your story as it is very encouraging and shows once again that it can be done!

        I spoke with HG yesterday and he got me back on track. This blasted ET takes its toll but consulting with HG is the only way to work through it and achieve freedom. I trust him, his work and the process.

        “It’s not always easy to do things even when we know they will benefit us, but necessity is the mother of invention as they say.” Wise words that remind me to keep moving forward despite the fear of the unknown. for me to keep in mind.

        Thank you again for your encouragement,

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Ah, Kristin, the writing was on the wall by the time it came to that third pregnancy. It had been writ large long before that, but the children came first in my mind. And physical violence no doubt tipped the balance as well. I knew I did not want my children to go through what I had been through as a child. There were a number of factors that all fed into the decision I made. And much more to the story that could be told. But we all come to it when we know that the choice to stay is much worse than the choice to go. And it can take a while to get to that place, mentally and emotionally. Don’t forget, I did not arrive at that place for a number of years even though all the machinations were in play from day one. And then I returned to him after that.

          Definitely ET is one of the things that keeps us in place, so I’m really happy to hear you lined up a further consult with HG to help you lower that ET and get you back on track again. It’s no easy feat, but you are doing all the right things in order to find yourself in a better place. That is so important <3

          1. Kristin says:

            Your story and the fact that you escaped continues to amaze me. You are a beacon of strength, one of many here. If you could do it while pregnant with two toddlers and a narc mother then I can certainly leave. Yes, ET does keep us in place!

            “It’s no easy feat, but you are doing all the right things in order to find yourself in a better place. That is so important.” Thank you for inspiring and motivating me to continue to move ahead. You have been through the ringer and came out much better on the other side, I love that for you. Blessings sent your way 🤗💕

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you so much, Kristin <3 I really appreciate your comment and a lot of what I have shared here has not been shared with anyone else. Simply because they don't have the insight into narcissism and can't comprehend the hell you can be put through. I've read so many remarkable stories since I've been here of survival and people finding a way to overcome the abuse they have suffered. I, too, am constantly inspired by what I read and the encouragement it gives.

            My intention now is not to go through that wringer again.

            And if anything I've said helps you to keep moving forward then that is what I want and will hope for you, too xox

        2. Fiddleress2 says:

          Hello Kristin,
          I too am glad to know that you are still being helped by HG, and moving towards freedom.
          I just wanted to say a little hello, and to let you know that I often think of you.
          Sending plenty of support your ways, and hugs.

          1. Kristin says:

            You are so kind and your words not only warmed my heart but came at the perfect time. I always enjoy reading your posts and I know you have had a rough time of things recently. I hope you are feeling better and doing well. 💜 Hugs right back to you!

          2. Fiddleress2 says:

            I always enjoy reading your posts too, Kristin, and it is always great to hear from you, to know that you are doing well, and/or better and better.
            Yes, I am feeling better now, thank you. Although this is November! Good that we have HG’s recorded tales to make this time of year lighter.
            There is an old Celtic language in the part of the country where I live which few people speak now as it is dying out. In this language, what translates as ‘November’ literally means “black month” (‘miz du’). This is of course because the days shorten quickly and visibly. I am thinking this could be applied to periods of time spent in a relationship with a narcissist too.

            I am glad if my previous post was timely. Please continue to take care 💜

          3. Kristin says:

            I like your analogy to ‘miz du’, it is very apt to being entangled with a narcissist. I completely agree regarding HG’s recordings, I can’t get enough of them!
            I’m so glad you are feeling better and I will continue to look forward to your posts. Please continue to take care of yourself XOXO

      2. WhoCares says:


        I agree with Kristen; very brave and bold of you to leave while pregnant (even if you did go back.)
        I don’t think I could have ever managed to leave when I was pregnant (even if I could see what he was then – I see now that he showed himself during that time but I attributed much to stress, etc.).
        If I had managed to leave while pregnant, I likely would have ended up living with my mother…and in that case I am not certain I would have recognized her narcissism, since her facade is better than my ex. It took going through my whole experience to bring me here and get a Narcsite education – and then recognize the both of them.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          I completely understand your position, WhoCares, and part of the problem was that I had to return to my family for support. It’s where most of us go, and I was still blind to my mother’s narcissism then. I did make it clear that I would need the family’s support if I was to leave, which was offered and agreed to, and realized within a very short space of time on returning that I had been duped. It was a classic case of future faking. And one reason I was driven to return to the narcissist. I won’t go into the details of the journey to escape, suffice to say it was long and exhausting with two toddlers in tow, but one of the first things my mother said to me on our return was “do you feel like you have come home with your tail between your legs?”

          I was caught between a rock and a hard place. There was no escape.

          One line of Taylor Swift’s “Epiphany” says it all for me:

          “Some things you just can’t speak about … “

          1. WhoCares says:


            “part of the problem was that I had to return to my family for support. It’s where most of us go”

            Naturally, yes. Similarly, I did end up, eventually inviting my mother into my life (after I escaped my ex) because it seemed like the right thing to do.
            It was not – and I had to escape her too.

            “I won’t go into the details of the journey to escape, suffice to say it was long and exhausting with two toddlers in tow”

            I can only imagine how challenging that would be.

            “one of the first things my mother said to me on our return was “do you feel like you have come home with your tail between your legs?”

            What a thing to say to someone so courageously trying to protect herself and her children.

            ““Some things you just can’t speak about …”

            Glad you are here to share even a little of your story.

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi, WC, and thank you for your comment x It always provides validation when you hear someone else has been in the same situation and I’m grateful for the validation you have provided again today. It’s like your worst nightmare to walk into a situation where you’ve calculated escape only to end up in the arms of another narcissist. And at the time you’re not aware that’s what is happening. My expectations of my mother, in spite of previous experience, continued to be hopeful. I still wasn’t aware of her total lack of empathy. On one occasion actually confronted her and asked her what was wrong with her! I knew there was something wrong, but it made no sense and I couldn’t put my finger on what was going on. She came back to me after that occasion to basically tell me she had smeared me to other people who couldn’t believe I had confronted her and basically saying what an ungrateful daughter I was. I asked her if she had told the people she had smeared me to about what she had actually done. That was one moment where I’d had enough of her bullshit and called her out on it. Of course, she got away with it as they only got her version of events and made the assumption I was a terrible daughter and obviously ungrateful.

            It is so typical of narcs and they get away with it every single time. You have no recourse to any kind of defense. I could not win. I was the bad daughter and she was the good mother. No one saw what I saw and the underhand manner in which my mother operated. She has been able to maintain the facade, sadly. How awful you also had to escape the person you thought would be there to support you. It’s a very hard situation to confront. And sometimes there are no words for having to confront it.

            My mother didn’t see my decision as courageous, and it was only when I was preparing my return to the narcissist I realized she had not told her best friend I’d even separated from my husband! That would have looked bad on her I now realize. She saw my separation as a failure on my part and a sign of weakness rather than a courageous act, which is how I saw it. Didn’t take her long to pour cold water on that idea. She was always determined to make me feel lesser. And she despises weakness. Her comment was designed to indicate how pathetic she thought I was and engender shame in me. It was also a sign of her total lack of empathy in the circumstances and the indication to me I had jumped from the frying pan into the fire. I booked myself into counselling almost immediately. Somehow I knew I wasn’t going to make it without someone on my side. I was fortunate to get a fantastic counselor who shored me up throughout my time dealing with my mother in the circumstances. The word narcissist never came up, but this woman seemed to have an instinct about what was happening. I’ll always be grateful for her. She was a God send.

            I’m glad you shared a little more of your story, too, WC. That really means a lot to me. Like I said, validation is key in knowing we are not alone and feeling understood in the aftermath. It makes it that much easier to lay down our burden so we can keep moving forward. I really do appreciate you being here, too xox

          3. WhoCares says:


            Your situation with your mother reads very similar to mine.

            “It’s like your worst nightmare to walk into a situation where you’ve calculated escape only to end up in the arms of another narcissist.”


            The not being aware of what’s happening – plus, the hopeful expectations despite past experience AND the delayed realization of her complete lack of empathy.

            Exactly all the same experience for me.

            In fact, in consultation with HG regarding my mother, I recall saying the exact words you’ve expressed:
            “I felt like I had gone from the frying pan into the fire.” Only, in my case I pushed this realization away, denied it… because I couldn’t accept it and I was in no place, physically or mentally to deal with it.

            The only real difference was I did not confront her directly but, at some point, I did put her empathy to the test (because I was reading HG and watching her behaviour closely) one day, in a situation where she should have been able to put her grandchild’s well-being ahead of her needs – and her need to exert control – unfortunately, she fully demonstrated her lack of understanding and emotional empathy. It was the most exhausting and surreal experience that I ever had with a narcissist.

            “No one saw what I saw and the underhand manner in which my mother operated.”

            That must have been very painful to go through the experience of your own mother smearing you and have people support her take on things.

            My mother tried all forms of emotional blackmail, pity plays and attempts to shame me. Fortunately, -or unfortunately – for me, I had had the benefit of already being smeared left and right through the legal process with my ex, had beat myself up over what had happened in relationship with him, so my mother’s smearing really had no effect. Well, it hurt to hear her say such things…but it had lost it’s power to cause me to act in anyway. I recall having a phone call with her (after physically escaping her) and the threats, pity-plays and guilt-tripping were horrendous. I let her go on for a bit and then I said to her, “You can keep ranting and saying horrible things about me if it makes YOU feel better – but you can’t make ME feel any worse than I already do.”
            End of rant. I just got her perplexed response of “What!?” – and I hung up on her.

            “She saw my separation as a failure on my part and a sign of weakness rather than a courageous act”

            Yes, your mother’s minimization of your experience with your ex and then putting it all on you as your failure, in particular, are definite flags for lack of emotional empathy. Glad you had an empathetic counselor to guide your through that. I had a good counselor (she was empathetic and skilled but unaware of narcissism) who was having trouble seeing the similarities between my mother and my ex and was of the opinion that perhaps I should just reach out to my mother (invite her to counseling) after I had escaped, and I was like “No way is that happening.”

            HG’s work really is the only source that provides true, accurate insight.

            “I’m glad you shared a little more of your story, too, WC. That really means a lot to me. Like I said, validation is key in knowing we are not alone and feeling understood in the aftermath.”


            It is very validating to finally understand what we’ve come through – especially with the insight we gain from HG and finding other strong women who have come through it, lived to tell it and share their stories of moving forward. So thank-you for sharing your stories, LET.

          4. WhoCares says:

            I should have said strong *Empaths – I am usually more conscientious that there are male victims, of course – but it is women who are more vocal about their stories – at least here on the blog.

          5. Another Cat says:

            Lickemtomorrow, WhoCares

            You are not alone. I needed to do similar, leave husband, and a few months later my mother, when one of the children was only 1 year. It was enormously tough. He had completely worn me out emotionally, isolated me financial ly, and started with physical abuse, it was creepy. Narcissism I’d only just heard of.

            “On one occasion actually confronted her and asked her what was wrong with her!”

            Must have been extremely exhausting for you. I think I asked her this kind of question once. Was so tired of the constant bullying. I called help lines to ask about her and they told me it sounds like dementia. ” But all this annoying bullying? This tearing me down, putdows in every word? ” I asked. “But that IS dementia!” the nurse said.

            The smearing mother did of me during divorce (“People say you are Crazy for this!!” she said) I just excused as “well it might be age fatigue” (she is only in her 60s though). But I had to cope, doubting myself many times, with this 50/50 share of the kids – with his top reputation as Upper Mid narc there is a very special quagmire of folks all over town who adore him – and break contact with mother. The police had to come and get her one day for banging my door for hours.

            I think HG started Narcsite around this time (didn’t find it until more than a year later, first I only visited occasionally)

            It took very small babysteps for things to get better, had to mostly establish the few friends I had left and find a few new ones. I often look for new clues over here of how to plan for different things regarding the children’s needs plus company of people who understand. I wonder if there is any other HG reader who has the coparenting with an Upper Midrange.

            LET, superstrong to leave when you were pregnant.

            (Please excuse my too obvious struggles with autocorrect)

          6. WhoCares says:


            So sorry you had to leave a narc ex and escape your mother as well shortly after. That’s brutal. ❤️

            And this: “I called help lines to ask about her and they told me it sounds like dementia. ” But all this annoying bullying? This tearing me down, putdows in every word? ” I asked. “But that IS dementia!” the nurse said.”
            !?!? – I know it comes as no surprise to many here but some mental health professionals are so misguided! Sorry, that was your experience when you reached out for answers.

            Glad you had some friends in your life who could be there for you at that time.

            I think I may have expressed this to you before; I don’t envy you having to “co-parent” with an Upper Mid-ranger.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey AC, it certainly sounds like you had your hands full with a very young child and more than one going by what you have said. There is much courage here and I’m sure much courage to come. Not easy to leave someone who everyone else thinks is an angel and can do no wrong. Your leaving should have raised a few questions, but no doubt he had his ‘alibi’ worked out. It’s a lot like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps when you’ve endured so much already and the only choice you have in some ways is to confront more difficulty. But it’s of a different kind and you know in the long run you will be better off.

            I can’t believe they ‘diagnosed’ your mother over the phone as suffering from dementia! That one really takes the cake. Not surprised narcissism wasn’t on their radar, but dementia? At least they were close to working out who the crazy one was … and it wasn’t you x She sounds like hard work and the leaving him, then leaving her dynamic seems to be more common than I realized. Narc mothers abound. And just when you need that extra strength and support they are the ones tearing you down. It’s incomprehensible until you get an understanding of narcissism. And in your case they weren’t even close to knowing what was going on. Which, as we know, in some ways isn’t surprising. But how devastating not to be able to get the kind of validation you needed at the time. The ‘off’ behaviour, not able to be explained, means we often just put up with it. Good to know you were able to escape in the circumstances, but that is a huge support pillar gone. What we know now is it never really existed in the first place (sadly).

            The 50/50 with the narc would be great if there was such a thing as a supportive narc. I’m sure that has taken a toll as well AC. And the advice you can get from HG will be invaluable in the circumstances. I know your children will benefit from your guiding hand and that is what we all hope for, too <3

            I have to tell one more story about leaving while I was pregnant. I had several flights to catch with my little charges and on the second longer haul flight I had requested a travel cot. The travel agent I booked with did not tell me they were only for children under one year old. At that time my youngest was coming up to two years old. This meant that when we got on the flight I had only two seats booked. Which meant in turn the three and a half year old got a seat, I got a seat, and the two year old was supposed to sit on my lap for the entire flight! It was not going to be possible and there were four seats in the row (in the middle), all of them occupied. The flight attendant told me we could not occupy seats further back even though there were people stretched across four seats lying down as the flight wasn't fully booked. That is when then first angel came to my rescue. The man sitting next to me offered to give up his bulk head seat (more comfortable for leg room) so that we could have three seats. They gave him another comfortable seat which also gave him plenty of leg room. When we arrived at the next airport he helped me with my luggage all the way to the next flight. I booked it in, took the children to the McDonald's for a little treat while we waited on it, then managed to miss it after I got the timing wrong. I was in bits at that stage and they put me on the next flight which meant another two hour wait. It was after getting off this last flight my mother made her comment.

            In spite of that, there were all these amazing people who stepped up along the way to give me the lifeline that I needed. The man on the plane, the counsellor after I arrived, and there were more. Things often found their way to me when I needed them and they were the right thing at the right time. I never expected to find myself here, but it is the right thing at the right time <3 xox

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            We have a lot in common, WC, and I’m so glad you shared more of your experience.

            It’s confronting to realize that your mother is not who you think she is. It’s also heartbreaking. I can completely understand how you didn’t have the wherewithall mentally or emotionally to face that at the time. You’d run out ‘reserves’ and such news could indeed be overwhelming. I think I might have pushed it away at the time if someone had told me that, too x

            “one day, in a situation where she should have been able to put her grandchild’s well-being ahead of her needs – and her need to exert control – unfortunately, she fully demonstrated her lack of understanding and emotional empathy. It was the most exhausting and surreal experience that I ever had with a narcissist.”

            Yep. Same here. And the surreal nature of the experience is probably why I confronted her. I could not believe what happened and it ran against everything I knew of what a mother should be, and not just a mother but any compassionate human being. She could not have highlighted more clearly her total lack of empathy. In that sense, it was a watershed moment. Seems like we’ve both had one of those, WC.

            The smearing she did after I confronted her was more of the unbelievable behaviour of the narcissist brought to light, I’d just got my head above water by confronting her before she shoved me back under again. She wasn’t even shy about telling me she’d smeared me! It was like “everyone thinks this of you now” basically after she told them what a horrible daughter I was. I knew the truth, and if anyone had asked me I would have told them. No doubt that’s what she was afraid of … losing her “perfect mother” facade. She had to get in before me.

            Sounds like you went through a terrible time in the proceedings with your ex, WC, so whatever manipulations your mother tried to apply were like water off a duck’s back in the end. That must have been a very tough time and your mother only added to your burden. Your remark about how she couldn’t make you feel any worse says it all. You were right to hang up on her. And I’m glad you did.

            Thank God you turned down the offer of the counsellor to bring your mother into therapy with you. That would have likely undone any good work the counsellor was already doing with you. Particularly as she had no idea of narcissism. Mine seemed to have an instinct for what was happening without putting a name to it. She never once tried to convince me differently as far as my mother was concerned. That was a huge relief. Someone was believing what I was saying, even if they weren’t putting a name to the ‘game’. Extremely validating in the circumstances.

            “It is very validating to finally understand what we’ve come through – especially with the insight we gain from HG and finding other strong women who have come through it, lived to tell it and share their stories of moving forward.”

            I couldn’t have said it any better, WC <3 Thank you for sharing your story, too xox

          9. WhoCares says:


            “It’s confronting to realize that your mother is not who you think she is.”

            Agreed. It is shocking – especially when for 40 odd years (in my case) you’ve gone about thinking you knew who this person was. I think once it struck home that my mother didn’t have an ounce of real empathy (and couldn’t even fake it to preserve her facade of caring for her grandchild) it then became very clear what she could be capable of, in pursuit of fuel and control – it was then an understatement to say that I was no longer comfortable with her being alone with my son.

            Like you said, it is unbelievable and a watershed moment – and definitely not a positive watershed moment.

            I am sorry you had to go through all that with your mother but I think that having gone through that, as alarming as it is, it helps resolve any doubt as to who you are dealing with. At least, that was the case for me. I had to see, hear and know for myself. I did have it confirmed with HG later.

            In fact, I had to have him tell me twice – I just needed to hear/see the words twice.

          10. Another Cat says:

            “I have to tell one more story about leaving while I was pregnant.”

            I so appreciated your story! Gave me tears of joy reading through your appreciation of those helping Angels. Made me recall some goodhearted helpers from 5 years ago. Being a pregnant single parent on the journey away from an abuse… very courageous.

            I notice one more typical thing of you and @WhoCares. Victims who honestly been through a lot have learnt to use their brain all the time for a zillion details, and how to constantly explain it nicely as well as intellectually, because the abuse had so many many aspects to keep track and patterns of all through the days. Phrasing everything correctly and patiently, to maximise our chance of being believed by the relevant people we needed something from when escaping and after. Help with access to info, with daycare for the kids, help when applying for jobs, when scheduling at work, and such.

            I observed the very careful thorough expressions of detail and believe you are great, warm friends, coworkers and parents, WhoCares, Lickemtomorrow. 🌷🌷

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AC <3

            Thank you for those lovely words, and expression of how the need to endure causes us to stand strong in the face of adversity.

            In this instance I did not want adversity to have the upper hand. Which is why I shared that further part of my story. Someone came to my rescue. More than once. And that is what I wanted to impart. The decision to escape was difficult in terms of not knowing what the future would hold. But from my perspective it had to be done. You could call it leaving on a wing and a prayer, which it was in many ways, but at the same time I was upheld, even by complete strangers, in that moment. That's why I call the man on the flight my angel. There was no impetus on him at all to do what he did, even to the extent of helping with my luggage. He told me he was returning to his own family after a business trip so there may have been some sentiment attached to his response. Even so, it was a lifesaver for me. These are the people we don't forget. I will be eternally grateful.

            While the decision I took and my actions may seem brave, it took the intervention of other people along the journey to help shore me up and I want to make sure I acknowledge that. All those things you mention around the supports you necessarily put in place make a difference. And I reached for each and everyone of them for the sake of my children. We do need people on our side. Some we find and some find us. But being believed by others and supported in our journey makes all the difference. I've no doubt, AC, you are just as precious a friend, co-worker and parent <3 xox. There are truly compassionate people here and I count you amongst them x

      3. Fiddleress2 says:

        That was so brave of you to leave while pregnant! My closest friend did exactly that: she left her husband (a narcissist, we are pretty sure now) when pregnant with her third child. She had to resist his hoovering, among other things, but she says that even now, twenty years later, she only needs to remember the elating feeling of freedom when it was finally over, to dispel all regret, and the feeling of guilt that society and her own mother tried to cause in her.
        Did your mother also use guilt to force you back to him?

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          I’m so glad to hear your friend was able to escape and never return, Fiddleress <3

          It was certainly an initial feeling of elation for me, and gave me back control I had not had for quite some time. The unfortunate part was that I had no choice but to rely on family at the start. My mother future faked me into believing she was going to provide support. And I'm not talking about financial support, but more emotional support and encouragement. A presence, if you will, for my children as well.

          She was the wrong kind of presence in every way. And it was all about control.

          One thing she didn't tell me at the time, and I only found out in more recent years, was that my ex-husband had phoned her and been abusive down the phone about how these were "his fucking kids", and so on, his sense of entitlement shouting down the phone as well. She never told me. I never knew. She kept that piece of vital information to herself while he sugar coated me in phone calls obviously trying to encourage our return.

          I wrote to his sister-in-law (his brother's wife) when I was thinking about the possibility of returning and asked her quite openly whether she thought it was a good idea. As in, had he changed. Could she see any change in him after the period of separation (which was almost a year at that stage). She gave me a non-committal answer. Blood runs thicker than water it appears. That was strike two.

          Strike three was when he promised to go to counselling with me on my return.

          Three strikes and I was out. I made the decision to return. Within hours I knew I had made a mistake. I had nowhere else to go. And the rest is a story for another day xox

          1. Fiddleress2 says:

            LET, I can see that it was way more complicated in your case than ‘just’ trying to make you feel guilty, which is in itself very hard to resist anyhow. It seems that you had no support at all, and a coalition against you (even if that coalition was not planned or conscious on their part).
            In a way, my friend ‘went back’ to her husband too, or came back on her decision to leave before she could do so for good: she had had an abortion a few months before, precisely because she wanted to divorce from him. But he made things difficult, and probably gave her a respite period, so she gave in and got pregnant again (which I can understand, when your ET is high and you are confused). Having that abortion had been an extremely tough decision for her to make, and she could not face another one. She decided to go ahead and have the baby, and leave for good.
            I myself went back to my daughter’s father after a 3-month breakup, before I could really leave him.
            In view of what you have explained, I can only imagine the strength you needed to have to leave in the end. Extremely brave of you ×

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi Fiddleress, my heart goes out to your friend in the circumstances <3

            The effects of emotional thinking will drag you back in, and the narcissist already has a hold due to cognitive dissonance. They say it can take several attempts (seven on average) to leave abusive relationships. When you consider all the complications that can exist around them in terms of children, finances, etc, it's not hard to understand. Unless there is encouragement and support waiting for you on the other side (in whatever form that might take), it can be hard to make the decision to leave. And even when there is sometimes. It is a process. And one that can take some time. But it is possible.

            The way the narcissist devalues sooner and more harshly generally on any return is the impetus the empath needs to make the break permanent. I'd certainly been strengthened in some respects during the period of my separation, even though my mother attempted to undermine me at every turn. So I took that strength back with me, and I knew how it felt to live with him and without him. The comparison could be made and it wasn't in his favour.

            I'm happy for you that you were also able to make the break permanent in the end x

          3. Leigh says:

            Thank you. Your story gives me hope. I’ve been with my husband for 35 years. Our whole life is intertwined. When I leave, I will be leaving everything and starting completely over. I’ll lose his family and our mutual friends. My mother is a narcissist as well and I won’t be able to lean on her for support. My one saving grace is my children are grown so I dont have to worry about small children at least. I have no more excuses. I have to find the courage to leave and move on.

            You did it with children in tow. Your fortitude and strength inspires me.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you, Leigh <3

            I am often encouraged by your posts and the things you have to say. They resonate with me and I can understand the difficulty in trying to move on from the narcissist. Especially when you might be lacking support. I felt like I jumped from the frying pan into the fire in my situation because I didn't know then my mother was a narcissist. It's taken years for everything to add up. But it finally has and given me so much relief. Being armed with the knowledge and awareness you already have will make such a difference. And it's obvious you have had great strength in your own situation. Which is what makes me think you will be able to carry that forward into a new situation. You are in the right place here to get the best advice possible to do what is right for you. And I hope you do xox You'll find support here either way

          5. Leigh says:

            LET, thank you for your kind words. I’m so ready to leave and yet I can’t do it. Cognitive dissonance. I feel like I have very little empathy for him and yet I still feel sorry for him. More cognitive dissonance. Its easy to stay because he’s not physically or verbally abusive and I’ve gotten used to the dissonance. Our relationship is bizarre. Its like I don’t have a husband. People will often joke and say, “do you really have a husband?” Meanwhile I’ve been with this man for 35 years. He doesn’t come to family events or spend time with me or the kids. And the family events are for his family and he still doesn’t come. I’m part of a couple, yet all alone. More cognitive dissonance. He thinks he’s the absolute perfect husband and that every girl would be lucky to have a man like him. He actually believes that to be true. Then i question if he’s so wonderful why am I so unhappy. Then I wonder if I’m being ungrateful and whiny. Empath007 wrote a couple of weeks ago about a victim feeling relief when the narcissist passes. I’m afraid I’ve gotten to that point with my husband and that bothers me. Its scares me. I start to question what kind of human being thinks like that. Then I start to wonder if I’m the narcissist. I hope not. I’ve done the ED & TD and I’m patiently awaiting my results.

            Ok, I’ve complained long enough. Thank you for letting me vent.

          6. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I relate so much to your comment posted at 20:48. I was married to a man who had energy for and interest in everything but his family, unless he was going to use it as an opportunity to be in the limelight. I used to feel like a nanny, not a wife. My daughter told me years after the fact that she hated it when he took them to piano lessons because he didn’t talk to them, they all just sat there waiting in silence for the one in the lesson to be finished. He and I would go to dinner and I would say, “What can we talk about?”. Everyone else would be talking with their table-mates but we would just sit there in silence. It was so odd, looking back. But he had a secret life going on that was consuming his time, his mind and his energy. Once I found out about that it all fell into place. I don’t know if he is a narcissist, he’s been gone over 10 years and he’s never hoovered me, but the more I learn about narcissism, the more I wonder. Maybe I’ll do a NDC on him at some point.

            To another point you made, I have done the EDC and the TDC. I also had some concern that I was a narcissist, I have had similar thoughts to some of yours about some of the narcs in my life. It turns out, to my surprise and relief, that I am not a narcissist, I am an empath. I now think those thoughts are a normal response to living in these very high stress kinds of situations, we are only human after all. I wish you the best as you consider options and make decisions.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, 35 years is a very long time to have adjusted to the cognitive dissonance in play. The fact your mother is also a narcissist has attuned you to that from the beginning. I found myself in a similar situation. And after leaving one (my ex) walked straight back into the same situation again. The cognitive dissonance was still in play over two separate relationships with several years in between. That’s partly because I didn’t know about narcissism or co-dependency. It’s built into us to accept the treatment that is being meted out to us.

            I can totally relate to the notion of feeling sorry for the narcissist. It’s my go to option in terms of being drawn back in or staying put. When I made the final break from my ex-husband his father was dying. I put off my escape because I felt sorry for him. That’s a fact. It didn’t prevent me in the end, and he shed a few crocodile tears to try and stop me, but at that point I’d made my decision and there was no going back. A huge part of that was dependent on the children and what would be best for them. At that point he had weekly contact with them, but even then it was obvious his narcissism was playing out on the children. The only person who could draw a line was me. And that is what I did. Ultimately that’s what it comes down to in the end.

            Safety was a factor. He only rarely physically assaulted me during the time of our marriage, but the fact he did at all was a major red flag. The concern he would turn that behaviour towards the children as they grew older was a major impetus to remove them physically from the situation. The indications were that this was a possibility. So I can see how when safety in that sense isn’t a factor the need to leave appears less urgent. There is a belief that the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t. There is also a level of security in knowing what to expect and we learn to be OK with that. It’s small comfort indeed, but it is some comfort in the circumstances.

            Having said that, I hear you saying that you are doing most of the heavy lifting even when it comes to his own friends and family. You would imagine that would give them some level of insight. As well as the children. You may have more supporters than you currently know. Or at least people that aren’t necessarily going to fall for the smear campaign. Maybe some of them are wondering why you put up with it, too, but often people won’t say that as they don’t want to get involved. I discovered even up to more recently that my ex-husband’s friends actually thought, and still do think, of me very highly. That surprised me. At the same time, they were his friends and didn’t want to get involved. That speaks volumes in terms of what we think we know and what actually is the case. Not that it made any difference to me at the time or even now, but it’s a reality check we all need to have at times.

            “Do you really have a husband?” tells me they will be more understanding than you think. And what you are saying is that you don’t. He’s there, but he’s not there, for you, his family or the children. He’s gotten a lifetime of service from you for very little in return. I don’t think anyone will hold it against you if you leave. They may well have seen the writing on the wall even if the best they could do was make a comment like that. I think it’s saying something.

            I do not believe you are a narcissist, and I’m sure HGs detector options will prove that. Glad to hear you are going ahead with those. It’s important to know that you are not the terrible person you might think you are for imagining an end to your current situation. I’m sure plenty of us have been there, and I’ve wished my most recent narcissist dead on a number of occasions, checking the obituaries at the same time! I know my impulse comes from a sense of anger and humiliation, and that was not a very long term situation either. But, imagining that was one way of getting rid of him, so to speak, and also in my case a kind of payback. Though these thoughts are all post escape for me and in that sense do not relate to the relief you might feel just not to have to deal with your husband anymore while at the same time not having to deal with the consequences of making a conscious choice to leave. That is difficult. And you mentioned all the reasons why it is so hard. I think most people can understand that. And the only way you will make the choice to get out and stay out is if you determine that is the better course for you to take.

            In the case of my ex-husband it was, and in the case of this latest narc I still felt all the emotions of grieving that relationship while at the same time knowing it had run its course and it was time for it to come to an end. He’d had more than enough chances and each time he offered me the golden period again it was shorter lived and the fall was harder. Because he promised so much, but never delivered. The deception there was hard to take in the end and finally tipped me over the edge.

            There are many reasons we finally decide to take the leap and every person’s situation is unique. Just know that you are being held here, in a manner that says we get it. We’ve all been there and some of us are still working through it. There are no wrongs and rights in the sense that each day we are strengthening our awareness and by doing that we are arming, or weaponizing, ourselves ready for whatever outcome we decide. You are building your understanding and your defences, Leigh. That puts you on the right path. And it’s a journey.

            We are journeying together and will keep eachother shored up in the battle against the narcissist. And we have the one who can give us what we need here in HG to ensure when we are ready he is also at the ready to help us beat the narcissist xox

  6. Pingback: Face reality | An altar to my Self
  7. BC30 says:

    When I found the box of birth announcement cards, there were so few. It struck me as odd. I just now put it together. The N isolates the victim.

  8. lickemtomorrow says:

    I read the most fascinating comment elsewhere recently where a woman said she decided to leave her narc husband and he requested they do it quietly without her revealing anything to anyone for the purposes of maintaining his facade. She agreed. Took their child and stayed ‘mum’ about the separation. As it happens, he remained in contact with her family and friends unbeknown to her and told them all she was basically having a breakdown so they began asking her questions and doubting her when she tried to tell them the truth! Her own family didn’t believe her because he had been smearing her behind her back after she tried to do him a favour – one he requested.

    Unbelievable. You can’t make this shit up.

    1. Kristin says:

      Wow. Right out of HG’s play book. I was hopeful when I read the first few sentences thinking there may be a chance but I know better than to doubt HG.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        It’s a fact, Kristin! I felt exactly the same way when reading it and was shocked at the fact he initially got away with it. Apparently she was eventually able to convince her parents that wasn’t the case, but it took some doing. He had them all on his side and had engineered it from the start.

        Definitely out of HGs playbook as you say.

        1. Kristin says:

          It is one thing to have your friends not believe you, but parents? That would have killed me. Just goes to show how convincing and manipulative narcs can be.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            He was a wily one, but I agree, Kristin. Your family for the most part are your main support and the ones you fall back on when you are down or in need. To have that taken away from her at such a crucial time must have been so distressing. She agreed to help keep his facade in place and she still got shafted! No one deserves that, but as we know narcissists are not concerned with the havoc they wreak. I’m not sure I understand his reasoning, even as a narc, unless it’s some kind of malign action related to wounding. Maybe that was his way to repair the narcissistic injury she caused by telling him she was leaving. Either way, sucked to be her, but she made a comeback once she was able to convince her family she wasn’t the problem <3

          2. Kristin says:

            So very true. I don’t know why I was so surprised because I believe HG has mentioned doing this in the past. My family are my biggest supporters and I would be lost without them and, of course, HG.

          3. Witch says:

            @ Kristin

            I find that difficult to understand myself. That’s why it’s important to really know your friends and your close family because ain’t no one can me one of my sisters is having a mental breakdown and I believe that person over her… I would be the one helping my sister report the MF to the police. I be showing up to court as a witness vicks rubbed under my eyes.
            👮‍♀️ 🚨
            bad boys what you gonna do!?

          4. Kristin says:

            You are correct Witch and your sisters are lucky to have you. Bad boys got nothing on you!

            We have a number of very close friends. They have all see his abuse throughout the years and although concerned, they love and support me. However, I am in no way going to assume that they will be there for me when it all goes down. It is awkward for friends when couples separate and I know he will smear me. As far as I am concerned, I know I will have my mother, sister, HG and the angels on this site. I will have no desire to bemoan what is going on with my friends because they have not lived it and do not understand narcissistic abuse like you all do. I know now that it will also increase my emotional thinking and I need to stay focused like I am now.

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            Being more aware of your circumstances, Kristin, I can only say it is just as well you are here <3 The current situation must be difficult for you, especially when you can see what might be coming down the road. I'm not sure that will be more difficult than where you are now, though. Fortunately you have the ability to prepare yourself here and get all the information you need for when you do escape. Hopefully that will be soon. It is good to know your friends are supportive of you and if they are aware then hopefully they will continue to lend you that support. It can be hard to know what way the chips will fall, but you can be encouraged knowing your family will be there for you and you have a family of sorts here, too. It's what many of us rely on xox

          6. Witch says:


            No matter what happens, stand your ground.
            I’ve had friends tell me unhelpful things when they think they are being helpful e.g “I don’t believe you have to cut everyone off” “maybe your mum will change once..”
            And I stick to my firm “No!”
            And it’s not because their intention is to throw me off track, it’s because they are projecting their misguided hopefulness onto my situation.
            If you have any doubts like you said, you can come here for the correct advice.

          7. Another Cat says:

            I totally recognize the story. Often involves an Upper Midrange narcissist. Their façade is very strong, all over town, and they often throw some covert little lies about ppl’s mental health.

            A friend of mine told me her mother didn’t believe that he beat her and the 4 kids. Apparently kicked her while pregnant too. For some reason I immediately decided to believe her story.

            He was a calm cool handsome popular classmates at uni. But I believed her. And soon her mother did too. The police even had evidence. Being smeared to relatives is cruel and isolating. Often there is also an N parent to the victim involved.

          8. Another Cat says:

            Over here you have HG and a blog family to support you through.

    2. Another Cat says:

      This is a very common situation though.

      1. Kristin says:

        Another Cat,
        I will be relying on HG and the blog for support. One of the beauties of it all is that this place is a constant, non judgmental refuge filled with others that completely understand and led by the World’s Expert and I do not say that lightly.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you and accurate.

    3. Leigh says:

      I can definitely see this happening to me when I finally decide to leave. I can see my husband thinking he is being supportive, understanding and compassionate. “Leigh had so much going on and she felt overwhelmed. I’m giving her some time to get better. Thats how wonderful I am to my wife and why I’m a great husband.” He will say it, mean it and believe it.

      As for support, this site, Mr. Tudor and all of you will more than likely be my only support.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Preparation is key, Leigh, and you will find the support you need here xox

        Don’t be afraid to ask for it and vent when you need to as well.

        The narc being the ‘good guy’ is in many ways the expected outcome. They can’t have it any other way. At the same time, HG has advice around that as well.

        Just keep us in the loop, Leigh, so we can offer the support you need.

      2. Kristin says:

        Please don’t apologize for venting, this is exactly where you need to be and we are all here for you.
        “Then I wonder if I’m being ungrateful and whiny. Empath007 wrote a couple of weeks ago about a victim feeling relief when the narcissist passes. I’m afraid I’ve gotten to that point with my husband and that bothers me. It scares me. I start to question what kind of human being thinks like that.” The type of person that thinks like that is one who has been abused and, trust me, you are not the only one to feel that way. I believe those kinds of thoughts enter our minds because we are worn out, have nothing left to give and are paralyzed by fear. If they pass, then we are prevented from having to do the thing that we fear the most, leaving the narc.

        As I have mentioned, you and I are in similar situations, I’m 29 years in. Your emotional thinking is driving you to have doubts about leaving and about yourself, I am right there with you. Thankfully, as odd as this may sound, my ULN, or prick as I like to call him, reminds me every hour of every day why I am leaving. His behavior is unbelievable but it keeps my ET down. It sounds as though you have a living arrangement with your husband. You have also said that you will have to start over among other things and I understand how daunting that can be.

        I hope that you find your way to freedom. Please do a consult with HG if you are able, he is a lifesaver and I am speaking from experience. I am not encouraging you to do this so he can convince you to leave, not at all, but to help you make sense of your situation. ET will drive you nuts and you have enough on your plate living with a narc.

        I’m so glad you are on this blog. Keep sharing and venting as much as you want because it helps and we can relate to what you are going through. 💜

        1. Leigh says:

          Thank you Kristin, LET & A Victor
          The reason I say that I need to stop complaining and being so whiny is because I need to stop thinking about it. I need to bury it right now. Its how I keep my emotional thinking at bay. He’s been having some serious health issues lately which make him even more unbearable and unfortunately, I’m stuck right now. That’s also why I’ve been thinking about him finally being gone from my life. Its a bizarre feeling. Its a feeling of relief and then a feeling of guilt for feeling that way. But there’s no feeling of being heartbroken and that’s sad.

          I came here 19 months ago for something completely different and never in a million years would I imagine that I would uncover all of this. Its a blessing and a curse at the same time. I needed to see it. I know I did. My parents, my husband. Ugh!

          Thank you everyone. Hearing your stories at least gives me hope and inspires me. Its makes me believe that I will get away some day and I will all the better for it.

          1. Empath007 says:

            Hi Kristin and Leigh 🙂

            Wow. 29 years. You both must be very strong people to stay with a narc that long.

            I just want to express that while I have not been in that situation. I can understand why you choose to stay.

            I want to make it clear I don’t advocate for staying in abusive relationships.

            However, not every situation is the same. Sometimes it’s better to stay with the devil you know. It can benefit children (not having to deal with a monster step parent who might be a million times worse). You don’t have to go through divorce, which is a painful, expensive and lengthy process. You don’t have to start over finicially, at an age where you may feel less opportunity is available to you. Your family remains in tact – not divided taking sides. Your retirement savings may be in tact.

            There are a lot of other things to consider. And I see nothing wrong with considering them. There are a lot of things in life a lot more important then feeling love. I never used to think that way but now I do.

            However, if you make the decision to stay, that comes with emotional ramifications… ones which empaths normally can’t handle. At the very least, try and do things for yourself and that don’t revolve around them.

            Once again I want to state I’m not advocating for staying with an abuser. I wanted to let these two ladies know I can understand not all situations are the same and it’s not easy to leave a long term relationship that has a lot of other things tied into it.

          2. Kristin says:

            You have a lot on your plate and I understand how overwhelmed you must feel now that you have discovered you were raised by narcs and then married one. Keep reading and taking care of yourself as best you can. We’ve got you ❤️

          3. A Victor says:

            Leigh, we all have or have had challenging situations. I’ve been living with my parents for 2.5 years to co-caretake, with my mother, my father who had Alzheimer’s. This last summer I met a narc online due to my own foolish action of going there. But, because of that I have discovered that my mother is a narcssist. It has made so many things fall into place but I can tell you, it has not made it any easier. My father has now passed away and we are dealing with the arrangements. In addition to grieving my dad, my mother is driving me crazy. Among other things, she is having so much fun on the phone telling everyone all about it and probably lots about me as well. Once the funeral is over, I will have some tough decisions to make.

            Also, during this time, I have been again tempted to break NC with the narc from the summer. He is/was living with his father as a caretaker also, we had this in common. I tell you all this because this site has become a refuge for me in a way. I don’t want be a whiner either but I know that people here understand and care. It is refreshing and it helps bolster me along the way. So please, if you need to lean, do so and don’t feel bad. We all need to sometimes, you will be there for others when it’s their turn, whether here or elsewhere in your life.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Hello AV, I wanted to tell you how sorry I am to hear about your father’s passing. I hope the arrangements process goes well without too much difficulty. Your mother will not make things easy for you which will add to your issues and the process forward. Try to keep your ‘wits’ about you and knowing in your mind that you will be able to ‘deal’ with her at some point in the not too far future.

            Don’t rush any decisions, because you are dealing with a lot of things at the same time (a) your father’s passing; (b) your mother’s narcissism (and it will also be present at the funeral); (c) ET levels will be even more ‘upset’; (d) LT will also be affected; (e) still having thoughts about the other narcissist – nearly tempted to break NC.

            Would you be in a position to consider a consult with HG as he would be able to offer you logical and practical advice in the way forward? HG does have cognitive empathy so he will also understand where your ’emotions / mental’ difficulties are at present.

            Once again, my condolences. Of course, you can ‘lean’ on us on this site (I refer it as a ‘nudge’). We will all do what we can to assist you during this difficult time. Have faith in yourself x

          5. Another Cat says:

            A Victor
            “My father has now passed away and we are dealing with the arrangements”

            Oh that must have been just now. So very sorry for you, A Victor. Losing your empathic kind parent. We are for vents and support. ❤️

          6. Leigh says:

            Thank you for your understanding. Oddly enough, I don’t advocate staying in an abusive relationship either. If I saw this happening to someone else, I would tell them “Run, run as far away as you can.” Its a very bizarre feeling. I don’t feel abused. Its hard to explain it. I actually feel safe with him. It truly is cognitive dissonance and I’m so used to it from my parents and now my husband that it seems normal to me. I’m soaking it in and I will get to where I need to be. I know I will. Thank you again for your understanding. Sometimes that’s all you need. Just someone to say, they get it.

          7. Leigh says:

            A Victor, our ET makes us think that we can have one conversation with them and that it will be ok. Can’t I have just one hit? Please? I get it, I really do. You are doing so well. If you reach out, when he hurts you again, it will feel a hundred times worse. If you’re like me, you’re using him as an escape. You need someone to make you feel better. The problem with that is even though it helps for a minute, the problems you are escaping from, are still there. I’ve come to realize that they only way to truly move past something is to address the problem head on, not pretend like it doesn’t exist. Its funny, I should probably learn to practice what I preach. I had an 18 month affair to escape my husband. It only made my problem worse. The man I had an affair with, was a narcissist. I was in the middle of silent treatment when I came to this blog. Then the flood gates opened.

            You are here for a reason, use it to learn and weaponize yourself. There is a wealth of information here.

            Stay strong. You’ve got this.

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, very sorry to hear about the passing of your father. I hope you are doing OK <3

            Please take care of yourself and lean on us whenever you feel the need x

          9. A Victor says:

            Another Cat, Leigh and Lickemtomorrow,

            Thank you for the condolences. He is better, my life will be easier in many ways, I will just miss him. I’m not 100% sure he was empathic, I think so, but he was the kinder parent most of the time. And no Leigh, I know I don’t want to start over the process with that narc from the summer. I have had a few temptations this week but none as strong as those early on after my escape. Between my kids, a few friends who help with my LT and this site, I have been able to resist those urges. Thank you again ladies, I appreciate your kind words.

          10. JB says:

            AV, I am so very sorry to hear about your dad. We are all here for you if you need to offload xxxx

          11. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            I’m so sorry to hear of the loss of your father
            My most heartfelt condolences lovely one
            Please remember to take extra care of yourself, your emotions are at all time high, stay focused stay strong
            We are here for you if you need us
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          12. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, JB and Bubbles, thank you for your condolences. I am happy for my dad, sad for myself. I do appreciate the kindness and suggestions very much. I am considering a consult with HG but have still a couple of other larger purchases so it’s a matter of order. The funeral went well, many people and I wasn’t with my mom through much of it. She seems old and sad now, I feel bad for her. Anyway, I’m getting as addicted to this site as I was to my summer narc I think, it is hard to believe HG can keep up with it but I am ever so grateful right now.

            Also, I had a light bulb last night from one of the videos from yesterday, love bombing and the golden period are different and separate events. Good to realize as I’ve been confused about this.

      3. NarcAngel says:


        I understand that it is your decision and also your fear of the unknown, but let me say this:

        Fear is like the narcissist – it appears as something else and it controls, often in subtle ways, and it can be quite effective, but in the end – there is really nothing there. It’s an empty vessel save how you fill it.

        What your husband will say or think is a matter for him. As for other people – when people part there are many reasons given (unnecessarily because it’s no one’s business) and they seldom match, but one thing is undeniable – someone was not happy. Anyone who expects another to wither and die as an individual because they formed as a couple with someone who no longer fulfills their needs was never an asset to your life and certainly not worthy of any further consideration. People part every day and the world keeps turning, ultimately because after the initial break they find out it was only fear that kept them there and they discover the vessel they chained themselves to is empty.

        1. Leigh says:

          NA, fear is a HUGE component. My life that way it is now, is all I’ve ever known. The more I’m on this site the more I learn and I realize that both my parents were narcissists as well. The manipulations, the dissonance, is what I’m used to. Its like LET said, there’s a real belief that the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know. The fear of the unknown often debilitates me.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            If the focus is to remain on fear, it should be that this is all you will ever have known when you leave this world when there was so much more.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Fair comment.

          3. Leigh says:

            NA, I wonder all the time if there is anything more for me. The truth is, there is more for me. That’s why I’m here. I came to this website to learn about another narc and uncovered a shitload of other narcs in my life. I know I’m exactly where I’m supposed to be right now. I’m here to learn and educate myself so that not only can I help myself but help others too. I know there will be a positive outcome to all of this. Why else would it be shown to me now? There is definitely more for me and I am closer to it now, more than ever.

            Thank you. That comment really made me think and that’s what I need.

        2. Kristin says:

          Your post really helped me. To have something I am struggling with described in such a way that allows me to see it in a different and much more logical manner makes a huge difference in my thinking.

          “People part every day and the world keeps turning, ultimately because after the initial break they find out it was only fear that kept them there and they discover the vessel they chained themselves to is empty.” I am trusting this to be true and I genuinely want to believe it so I can continue to move forward. Thank you.

      4. BC30 says:

        Leigh, promise you won’t leave us? I send all my love and want the best for you. There is a whole world out here that I couldn’t even imagine because there was so much fear. You can find more freedom. No matter what happens, please don’t leave us. XO

        1. Leigh says:

          BC30, I’m never leaving here. I finally have validation. I finally have understanding and clarity. I never would have gotten it without Mr. Tudor and all of you. I’m beyond grateful! You guys all make me feel safe. I’ll never give that up.

          1. Kristin says:

            I second that Leigh. 🥰

        2. Leigh says:

          I just reread your comment. I think there may have been a misunderstanding. NA & I are talking about me leaving my husband. That I shouldn’t let my fear hold me back. That there’s a hold world out there and shouldn’t let my fear of leaving the narcissist, stop me from experiencing life.

          Thank you for your concern. Other than the narcissists being a thorn in my side, I really do love my life. I’m not going anywhere.

          1. BC30 says:

            No, I get what was said, but sometimes people get sad or depressed and isolate. We have no way to contact one another. Although you shouldn’t let fear of leaving the N stop you from experiencing life now, I was saying that it’s tremendously improved (IMHE) when one does leave. XO

          2. Leigh says:

            BC30, Oh ok. I often say that to myself when Mr. Tudor isn’t around. We have no way of knowing if someone is ok or not.

            I’m not usually prone to depression or sadness. I’m pretty happy go lucky, even though the past couple of weeks, I’ve been a little sadder than usual. Thats not usually how I am though. It was all just so much at once and it overwhelmed me.

            Yes, I have to leave him. Baby steps for me though. I’m getting there, slowly but surely.

  9. Empath007 says:

    So true. So frustrating as well. To know not only will we never be believed on a personal level with our own situations, but that it’s more then likely narcissism will never be understood for exactly what it is… all the things you teach us. And even if it were… there’s still no stopping it, and we probably wouldn’t want it stopped as narcissism has been an essential part of the fabric of our society for centuries.

    Some questions that came to mind today :

    Being that the narcissist has such high self esteem …. why the need for positive fuel ? Does the praise simply reinforce what the narcissist already believes to be true ? If the narcissist can provide a sense of perfection within themselves, is the admiration of the masses really necessary ?

    If one is painted black. Is it possible to be painted white again ? If so, how might one accomplish this ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, you can be painted white again.

      You are asking the wrong question – you should be asking, why, when I know I am dealing with a narcissist am I even contemplating trying to affect how they view me?
      Apply GOSO.
      You cannot make a narcissist view you as white again with any guarantee of success.

      1. Empath007 says:

        You’re right. That is the question I should be asking instead. It’s interesting how someone could treat me so mean and yet I’d seek their approval.

        I think part of the issue is knowing that if I create a Hoover trigger, it’s likely it will work… knowing that a narcissist is likely to return is an issue for me. While this is not accurate thinking – it makes me feel like I could get him back at any time and re kindle the flame.

        Addiction is a life long struggle.

    2. Kristin says:

      I am replying under one your older posts. Thank you so much for your thoughtful post and understanding. It means so much that you validated, in a way, why it is so difficult to leave. You were in no way advocating staying with an abuser but instead, supporting those of us who are scared to death, have known nothing else and are consumed with ET.

      “However, if you make the decision to stay, that comes with emotional ramifications… ones which empaths normally can’t handle.” Your words of wisdom are so very true and I will keep reminding myself of that when ET is high. It is a struggle to get through each day with the narc and when I get scared about the future and I look at the alternative, I realize there is no way in hell I can do this much longer and survive. I will not spend the rest of my days this miserable, it is not worth it.

      I am well aware that nothing will change until I leave but it warmed my heart to know that you understand our situations and the struggles involved. You also reiterated what I know and what HG has preached for so long. Thank you for taking the time to write. xoxo 🥰

      1. Empath007 says:

        You’re welcome Kristin.

        I watched my mother go through this process for a very long time. Although my father was not a narcissist, he was an alcoholic, so it came with similar ups and downs in their marriage. Truth be told, I really respect my mothers decision to stay in the relationship while we were young. In my mind it exhibited a special kind of strength (not weakness) on her part, because of her I had a happy childhood and I was protected from my fathers disease. I see nothing wrong with her decision to have stayed, she made the decisions that she thought were best for her and I hold nothing against her for it. In life, things can not always be perfect, I don’t blame my parents for anything… they are human. They had their own battles that were not my own. The only thing I wish she would have done is put more focus on her own life and not my father and his. But she’s a co dependent born from extreme trauma and abuse…she knew no other way.

        If it helps you she did end up leaving eventually. Life went on… we all adjusted to the new “normal” our family was faced with. It has had some repercussions for us (the children) due to new spouses now being involved in our inheritance. It’s not perfect….but life never will be.

        So whatever decision you make.. its not wrong. Its simply your decision.

        1. A Victor says:

          Empath007, your comment is so lovely. It is one of such absolute acceptance and understanding of our uniqueness as individuals and in each of our various situations. And it shows such love for your parents even in their imperfect humanity. A sweet testament to them and also to who you are.

  10. Robin says:

    Nah, that just puts their attention back on you, I just disappeared from the narc. when asked why we split up, I simply said we weren’t a match, I aware it drove him mad that I wouldn’t tell the truth about him.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well done.

  11. Asp Emp says:

    I no longer have ‘reason’ to. If I cannot be trusted, then what can I do?

    “They believe me.” – depends on who is “me”…..

    “They won’t believe you.” – yes, they will, because they know me. Yet, do I need to go that far????

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